WEBVTT 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:19.100 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:19.100 --> 00:00:21.739 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:25.480 with my friend Michael Nagler. This podcast is 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:30.820 a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where 00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:33.159 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:36.500 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:36.500 --> 00:00:39.399 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:43.770 just, more nonviolent world. So as usual, I like 00:00:43.770 --> 00:00:47.310 to begin with a little prayer. So I invite the 00:00:47.310 --> 00:00:49.909 listeners, wherever you are, just to take a deep 00:00:49.909 --> 00:00:55.570 breath and just to relax and notice how you're 00:00:55.570 --> 00:00:59.649 feeling today and recenter yourself and enter 00:00:59.649 --> 00:01:03.009 into the presence of peace, the God of peace 00:01:03.009 --> 00:01:07.030 or universal love, however you imagine your God 00:01:07.030 --> 00:01:10.230 who loves you. And we welcome the nonviolent 00:01:10.230 --> 00:01:13.290 Jesus here with us. And just take a moment to 00:01:13.290 --> 00:01:16.829 ask for whatever graces and blessings of peace 00:01:16.829 --> 00:01:26.170 and nonviolence we need. God of peace, thank 00:01:26.170 --> 00:01:29.430 you for all the blessings of peace and life and 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:32.849 love that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect 00:01:32.849 --> 00:01:36.329 together on your call to practice nonviolence 00:01:36.329 --> 00:01:41.019 like the nonviolent Jesus. inspire us, heal us, 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.719 strengthen us, and send us out that we might 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:47.680 be your holy peacemakers and practitioners of 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.819 nonviolence, that we might do our part to help 00:01:50.819 --> 00:01:54.920 end poverty and war, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:55.420 --> 00:01:57.980 nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and 00:01:57.980 --> 00:02:01.719 all forms of violence, that we might be the people 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:04.680 you created us to be, your holy peacemakers. 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.359 And we ask this in the name of peace, in the 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:11.099 name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. So it's, again, my 00:02:11.099 --> 00:02:14.400 pleasure to welcome you, my friend Michael Nagler, 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:17.939 who's Professor Emeritus of Classics and Comparative 00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:21.120 Literature at UC Berkeley. Michael co -founded 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.580 the Peace and Conflict Studies Program. at UC 00:02:24.580 --> 00:02:27.080 Berkeley and the Metta Center for Nonviolence 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.080 in 1983, and continues to dedicate his life to 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.639 the values of nonviolence and spirituality and 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:37.819 meditation. He's the co -host of Nonviolence 00:02:37.819 --> 00:02:41.599 Radio, a popular radio show and podcast on nonviolence, 00:02:41.620 --> 00:02:45.939 and has great books on nonviolence, such as The 00:02:45.939 --> 00:02:48.699 Search for a Nonviolent Future, A Promise of 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:51.139 Peace for Ourselves, Our Families, and Our World, 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:55.469 The Nonviolence Handbook, A Guide for Practical 00:02:55.469 --> 00:03:00.090 Action, Looking for Light, and The Third Harmony, 00:03:00.169 --> 00:03:03.409 Nonviolence and the New Story of Human Nature. 00:03:03.650 --> 00:03:07.689 Welcome Michael Nagler to my podcast. Thank you 00:03:07.689 --> 00:03:10.409 so much, John. What an honor to be here. It's 00:03:10.409 --> 00:03:15.169 great to be with you. So I would like to begin 00:03:15.169 --> 00:03:19.000 jumping right into the deep. and ask you to explain 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:22.500 all things about nonviolence to us. You've been 00:03:22.500 --> 00:03:27.000 teaching this my whole life. I mean, in the 60s, 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.259 you were studying this and teaching it. So what 00:03:30.259 --> 00:03:33.620 does it mean for you today, you know, the word 00:03:33.620 --> 00:03:35.879 nonviolence? What are we talking about here? 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:39.620 And you can take that in any way you want. That 00:03:39.620 --> 00:03:42.439 would be most helpful for people listening today 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.509 and the predicament we're facing today. Well, 00:03:45.590 --> 00:03:49.569 I hope it will be most helpful for all those 00:03:49.569 --> 00:03:53.129 good people if I just kind of unburden it right 00:03:53.129 --> 00:03:58.129 out of my heart. I believe that nonviolence is 00:03:58.129 --> 00:04:04.110 both the deepest core of our human being and 00:04:04.110 --> 00:04:10.210 consequently also the destiny of the human race 00:04:10.210 --> 00:04:14.729 and that all human progress. has been a progress 00:04:14.729 --> 00:04:20.089 toward nonviolence. And that process, of course, 00:04:20.329 --> 00:04:24.089 this will be not a controversial assessment, 00:04:25.009 --> 00:04:28.769 that process is far from complete. But because 00:04:28.769 --> 00:04:32.110 it is, if I may use a Hindu term here, if this 00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:39.110 is our inner dharma, then there's a kind of health 00:04:39.110 --> 00:04:43.480 and happiness and security and fulfillment. that 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:47.620 it brings to discover that dharma and make any 00:04:47.620 --> 00:04:52.220 kind of contributions to it and that can also 00:04:52.220 --> 00:04:57.019 be illustrated conversely by how destructive 00:04:57.019 --> 00:05:02.300 violence is not just toward its victims but as 00:05:02.300 --> 00:05:05.920 we are more and more aware now through the scientific 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:10.819 category of moral injury as we're more and more 00:05:10.819 --> 00:05:14.860 aware Violence is a terribly destructive frame 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:18.699 of mind and practice to carry out against others. 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:23.259 Because really, really, really, if you get right 00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:27.459 down to it, there are no others. We are all one. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:32.560 And injury toward what seems to us to be another 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:37.540 person is actually injury to ourselves. We have 00:05:37.540 --> 00:05:41.139 to kind of shudder for what is going to happen 00:05:41.139 --> 00:05:44.740 to the people who are working such immense violence 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:48.439 in the world right now. But the main point is 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:52.879 to discover our nonviolent capacity and work 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:59.519 out how to implement that in the world. And there's 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.839 one very important guideline that I have to remind 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:09.199 myself about here. I'm going to lean on Thomas 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:15.019 Merton for this one. Namely, it's our job to 00:06:15.019 --> 00:06:20.699 do it. It's not our job for it to work, to have 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:25.279 the desired result. We have to create something, 00:06:25.459 --> 00:06:28.720 as Merton said, that God can make something out 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:33.540 of. So now if I were to look upon that from my 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:37.040 Hindu background, I would say, This is our sva 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.839 -dharma, our individual dharma that each of us 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:44.500 has to discover how to do. I believe that mine 00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:50.279 is mostly an educational dharma, an educational 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:54.779 path, and so far I haven't had any indication 00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:58.839 that that's a horrible mistake, so I'm staying 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:02.029 on it for the time being. Michael, that's so 00:07:02.029 --> 00:07:04.949 beautiful. I listened to you for hours. You've 00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:07.290 been teaching it and studying it for decades, 00:07:07.470 --> 00:07:09.670 really your whole life. Let me put it to you 00:07:09.670 --> 00:07:15.389 this way. What new things have you learned about 00:07:15.389 --> 00:07:19.110 nonviolence over the years? Or has this always 00:07:19.110 --> 00:07:22.050 been the way you've seen it? Like this is fundamental 00:07:22.050 --> 00:07:25.970 to our nature. This is any progress is progress 00:07:25.970 --> 00:07:29.589 toward nonviolence on the whole human race. If 00:07:29.589 --> 00:07:31.709 you will, we're all headed to becoming nonviolent 00:07:31.709 --> 00:07:34.790 human beings and working for a nonviolent world. 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:38.850 Because for me, I think I keep, you know, every 00:07:38.850 --> 00:07:42.610 few years moving into deep levels of awareness. 00:07:42.769 --> 00:07:45.509 And maybe that means of my own violence. I don't 00:07:45.509 --> 00:07:48.509 know. What about you? Just in terms of your journey 00:07:48.509 --> 00:07:53.649 of understanding nonviolence. Yeah, well, the 00:07:53.649 --> 00:08:00.870 fundamental understanding of it hasn't. I just 00:08:00.870 --> 00:08:05.310 enjoy discovering it here and there in ways that 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:08.170 I might not have expected. I'll just give you 00:08:08.170 --> 00:08:11.730 kind of almost a comical example. I happen to 00:08:11.730 --> 00:08:16.889 have an amateur interest in paleoanthropology, 00:08:16.949 --> 00:08:23.889 where we came from way, way back. And I mean, 00:08:23.910 --> 00:08:26.829 we all know where we came from originally. But 00:08:26.829 --> 00:08:32.690 on this planet, you know, scientists have recently 00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:37.149 come up with a plausible explanation of why the 00:08:37.149 --> 00:08:42.169 Neanderthals went extinct. They were stronger 00:08:42.169 --> 00:08:48.490 than us and better adapted in many ways. And 00:08:48.490 --> 00:08:52.690 they had bigger brains. So what was the problem? 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.259 recognize that you have these little pockets 00:08:59.259 --> 00:09:05.779 of small Neanderthal communities dotted all over 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:11.059 Europe and Western Asia and up in Siberia. And 00:09:11.059 --> 00:09:13.879 on the surface of it, they're not too dissimilar 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:17.940 from early Homo sapiens communities. But there's 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:21.879 one profound difference that in caves, for example, 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:28.409 that were occupied by humans, homo sapiens, in, 00:09:28.690 --> 00:09:33.809 let's say, France. You discover objects that 00:09:33.809 --> 00:09:40.009 were traded for and ideas and innovations that 00:09:40.009 --> 00:09:46.549 could have come from Siberia or what is now Turkmenistan 00:09:46.549 --> 00:09:49.009 or something like that. In other words, there 00:09:49.009 --> 00:09:52.450 were these very, very active... trade networks 00:09:52.450 --> 00:09:56.470 which traded not only uh you know tools and weapons 00:09:56.470 --> 00:10:04.549 and and stuff of survival but um interconnectedness 00:10:04.549 --> 00:10:11.350 and um communication of ideas whereas in the 00:10:11.350 --> 00:10:14.909 cave inhabited by neanderthals you might find 00:10:14.909 --> 00:10:18.090 some flint object that came from far away but 00:10:18.090 --> 00:10:22.590 it never It never went anywhere, never became 00:10:22.590 --> 00:10:27.129 a whole culture. I guess to sum it up, Homo sapiens 00:10:27.129 --> 00:10:31.129 sapiens were sociable. They interbred, they exchanged 00:10:31.129 --> 00:10:38.330 ideas. We were, in a then remote sense, one community 00:10:38.330 --> 00:10:43.649 across the globe. Whereas the Neanderthals, however 00:10:43.649 --> 00:10:46.590 better they may have been adapted individually, 00:10:47.190 --> 00:10:52.250 were not sociable. Relatively speaking. And this 00:10:52.250 --> 00:10:55.129 seems to be the reason why those poor brutes 00:10:55.129 --> 00:11:00.389 went extinct. And so far we haven't done that, 00:11:00.450 --> 00:11:03.330 though we are, despite the fact that we're working 00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:08.450 on it very hard. Thank you, Michael. I want to 00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:11.090 talk with you about Gandhi. And as you know, 00:11:11.210 --> 00:11:14.639 I've told you, one of my... Favorite books in 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:18.120 the whole wide world is Gandhi the Man, The Story 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:21.720 of His Transformation by Eknath Eswaran, which 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:23.860 you were very involved in. You have a beautiful 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:27.399 foreword to it. I remember in the 90s when I 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:29.379 was the head of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:34.360 I think I bought 50 or 100 copies, and then I 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.759 had Daniel Berrigan and our other priest friends 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:39.840 buying copies, and we were just giving them out 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.240 to all our friends. It's still... One of my all 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:45.460 -time favorite books. I'm holding it in my hand. 00:11:45.779 --> 00:11:48.879 Let me ask you first about Gandhi, and then I'm 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:50.440 going to ask you about the book itself, because 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:53.220 if you're listening, friends, I really do urge 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:55.620 you to get this book, Gandhi the Man, which has 00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:58.860 beautiful pictures by the great Eknath Eswaran. 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.639 Gandhi did so much for us all, bringing nonviolence 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.080 to the whole world, lifting it up, drawing it 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.440 out of all the religions, and then modeling it. 00:12:11.070 --> 00:12:14.950 You've been teaching Gandhi for decades. What 00:12:14.950 --> 00:12:17.710 are some key aspects or lessons from Gandhi's 00:12:17.710 --> 00:12:20.710 nonviolence that might be helpful or just to 00:12:20.710 --> 00:12:26.690 lift them up for us to ponder? Yeah, well, I 00:12:26.690 --> 00:12:30.529 would start back at the point where that I have 00:12:30.529 --> 00:12:35.009 already mentioned, John, that in talking about 00:12:35.009 --> 00:12:39.419 nonviolence, we're talking about the inner. core 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:44.139 of what it means to be a human being. And then 00:12:44.139 --> 00:12:47.539 you look at every aspect of his life, which was 00:12:47.539 --> 00:12:52.539 incredibly consistent. And you notice, for example, 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.700 his let's take just for one thing, his attitude 00:12:56.700 --> 00:13:01.460 toward material goods. You know, he was worth 00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:04.659 something like five dollars in material possessions. 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:10.990 at the time of his assassination. His happiness 00:13:10.990 --> 00:13:16.710 came entirely from contributing to the happiness 00:13:16.710 --> 00:13:20.789 of others. And that was a very, very deep happiness 00:13:20.789 --> 00:13:24.590 that nothing can ever take away from us. And 00:13:24.590 --> 00:13:27.509 he exhibited that to an extraordinary degree. 00:13:28.070 --> 00:13:32.710 And I'm not the first one. to compare in terms 00:13:32.710 --> 00:13:36.789 of his being and in terms of his impact on history, 00:13:37.029 --> 00:13:39.769 I wouldn't be the first one to compare Gandhi 00:13:39.769 --> 00:13:43.470 with Jesus. Well, Dr. King certainly did over 00:13:43.470 --> 00:13:47.850 and over again, which is very helpful. Yeah, 00:13:48.049 --> 00:13:54.269 so the difference being, of course, the vast 00:13:54.269 --> 00:13:58.830 difference in historical time, which allows us 00:13:58.830 --> 00:14:05.370 to see thoroughness and detail in the case of 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:10.250 Gandhi, which is now closed to us in the case 00:14:10.250 --> 00:14:14.570 of Jesus. However, I do want to say, and I'm 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:18.110 going out on a limb here, some people may be 00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:21.750 startled to hear this. They may not believe it, 00:14:21.830 --> 00:14:25.750 but it's in my heart and I want to say it. And 00:14:25.750 --> 00:14:31.309 that is that it is possible to have uh a direct 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:36.850 awareness of jesus i have not of course but uh 00:14:36.850 --> 00:14:42.850 i know uh stories from two hindu sages actually 00:14:42.850 --> 00:14:47.409 whom tell nothing but the truth and would have 00:14:47.409 --> 00:14:51.909 no reason whatever to lie and their stories of 00:14:51.909 --> 00:14:57.090 how they not just met but how they merged into 00:14:57.090 --> 00:15:01.740 the being of jesus is like one of the most it 00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:04.799 just it still raises hair on the back of my neck 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:08.340 to think about it it is it's just it's stunning 00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:16.000 so how it at the very very least it reaches across 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.659 these artificial barriers between religions but 00:15:20.659 --> 00:15:24.039 more than that it is how we know for a certainty 00:15:25.400 --> 00:15:29.539 that Jesus is a living force in this world. And 00:15:29.539 --> 00:15:32.940 he will pick anyone on us up if we lighten the 00:15:32.940 --> 00:15:38.059 load. Amen. Well, so Gandhi was very intentional 00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:41.139 about, you know, going as he used to say, the 00:15:41.139 --> 00:15:44.860 goal is self -realization, to see God face to 00:15:44.860 --> 00:15:48.399 face. And his whole life was the Bhagavad Gita 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.580 and the Sermon on the Mount, which is what I 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:54.070 teach. And so... You were part of this book with 00:15:54.070 --> 00:15:58.129 your great friend and teacher, Eknath Eswaran. 00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:01.490 And I just wanted to ask you to tell us a little 00:16:01.490 --> 00:16:03.710 bit about him and the book. And let me tell you 00:16:03.710 --> 00:16:06.750 what gets me and why the book is so good. You'll 00:16:06.750 --> 00:16:11.149 forgive me, but I read the 100 complete works 00:16:11.149 --> 00:16:14.629 of Gandhi. And I've read about 50 biographies 00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:17.149 because I did my own anthology of Gandhi. And 00:16:17.149 --> 00:16:20.590 this is still my favorite book because as you 00:16:20.590 --> 00:16:23.179 write in the foreword, Well, this is what I'd 00:16:23.179 --> 00:16:25.820 love you to tell. Eknath went, he was from India, 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.740 and then he ended up in UC Berkeley with you, 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:32.200 I think. But, you know, back in the day, he went 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.399 and met with Gandhi for a week. He wanted to 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.299 know where he got his power. And that's what 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:41.679 the book says that's so different, that Gandhi 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:46.840 was overflowing personality of love and joy. 00:16:47.629 --> 00:16:50.429 As he's resisting the British Empire. Now, that's 00:16:50.429 --> 00:16:53.190 the way I think Jesus was. And everybody, you 00:16:53.190 --> 00:16:55.090 just want to be with this person because there's 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:57.750 nobody like him. And Gandhi was very intentional 00:16:57.750 --> 00:17:01.269 about that. And that's what Eknath's book was 00:17:01.269 --> 00:17:05.670 trying to get at. How do I share that? This is 00:17:05.670 --> 00:17:08.890 a contagious power to this person who tapped 00:17:08.890 --> 00:17:12.150 into the personality of Jesus. And Gandhi insisted 00:17:12.150 --> 00:17:15.549 any one of us can do it. So tell me about Eknath 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:17.990 and the experience of that book to get at Gandhi 00:17:17.990 --> 00:17:22.589 and for ourselves, how we can turn away all this 00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:25.250 violence and darkness and go deep into truth 00:17:25.250 --> 00:17:28.089 and universal love. We can do it, apparently. 00:17:29.410 --> 00:17:33.690 We can do it. I've been working on it for decades. 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:41.440 It is working ever so slowly. And what it is, 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:48.000 is meditation. And I think that in India, as 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.420 far as we can tell, meditation has been practiced 00:17:50.420 --> 00:17:55.599 for millennia. And they've worked out the technology 00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:00.359 of how to do it. Now, in my case, the way it 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.500 works is we take an inspirational passage. So, 00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:08.200 you know, like the attitudes, which I often use. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:14.160 And when you sit in meditation, and what's important 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:19.279 is to sit with your head and neck and body in 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:21.759 a reasonably straight line. It doesn't matter 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.759 if you're on the floor or in a chair or somewhere. 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:28.519 And then you have set aside some time for this 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:32.180 every day. I do it a lot, but we don't need to 00:18:32.180 --> 00:18:36.349 get into that. And you close your eyes and go 00:18:36.349 --> 00:18:40.589 through the words of the passage as slowly as 00:18:40.589 --> 00:18:44.349 you can manage it without distractions creeping 00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:51.430 in. But they will. And so when a distraction 00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:56.190 is pulling you away from the passage, the key 00:18:56.190 --> 00:18:59.710 is not to fight with it. Because then, you know, 00:18:59.750 --> 00:19:04.440 you've just magnified it. So just refocus, refocus 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:08.640 your attention back on that passage. And there's 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:13.299 nothing unknown in the Christian fold or among 00:19:13.299 --> 00:19:17.059 Jewish meditators either, for that matter. I 00:19:17.059 --> 00:19:19.779 mean, Simon Veil has one of the best descriptions 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:23.920 of how to meditate on the Lord's Prayer. Or, 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.859 for example, let's say if we take St. Francis' 00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:30.890 prayer, you know, God. Lord, make me an instrument 00:19:30.890 --> 00:19:35.069 of thy peace. You just go through those words 00:19:35.069 --> 00:19:38.490 as slowly as you can. Let the meaning sink in, 00:19:38.630 --> 00:19:43.670 but don't think about them. Don't worry. The 00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:46.990 meaning of those blessed words will register 00:19:46.990 --> 00:19:51.349 in your deeper consciousness. The slower you're 00:19:51.349 --> 00:19:54.609 able to say it, the deeper they will register. 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:00.920 And that's the essence of the technique. It turns 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.960 us 180 degrees away from the frantic, external, 00:20:06.259 --> 00:20:11.900 material world that we're surrounded by. And 00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:17.319 it brings us in contact with very deep sources 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:23.160 of compassion. One of the first aha experiences 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:28.029 that I had. meditating in the early days, was 00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:32.009 I had some kind of a good experience. It was 00:20:32.009 --> 00:20:39.509 warm and reassuring. And simultaneously, I was 00:20:39.509 --> 00:20:45.509 aware that what I had just touched upon was in 00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:50.430 everyone. Indeed, in some form or other, in every 00:20:50.430 --> 00:20:56.200 living being. And that is what makes violence 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:03.599 impossible. And so to put it in one very simple, 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.940 almost selfish way, if you're violent, it'll 00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:12.200 disrupt your meditation like crazy. But more 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.259 importantly, in meditation, you will become intuitively, 00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:21.670 deeply aware. of your unity with other beings, 00:21:21.930 --> 00:21:26.309 primarily other human beings. And there's also 00:21:26.309 --> 00:21:30.769 very good science on this now that wasn't there 00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:33.730 when I started, you know, those were years ago. 00:21:34.269 --> 00:21:39.970 From neuroscience and different angles, now that 00:21:39.970 --> 00:21:43.109 scientists have decided to take the blinders 00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:47.099 off and take a look at this stuff. There's excellent 00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:51.039 evidence, even from the external world, from 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.819 the objective world. Though I don't need it anymore, 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.359 it's reassuring to know that it's there and I 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.079 can help the user with others. So that's the 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.440 essence of the technique. Meditation, otherwise 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:09.500 known as interior prayer, is always a question 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:14.240 of concentration. And while you're concentrating, 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.900 you'd be very foolish to concentrate on something 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:22.279 negative or something random. So you take something 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.880 inspiring like the prayer of St. Francis and 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.279 meditate on that and learn not to beat yourself 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.339 up when you have distractions and so on and so 00:22:35.339 --> 00:22:39.359 forth. So that is the essence of the technique 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.940 and there's more information on it on the website. 00:22:47.250 --> 00:22:53.430 www .ishwaran .org. Yeah, go ahead. And you've 00:22:53.430 --> 00:22:56.089 been teaching Gandhian nonviolence, if you will, 00:22:56.190 --> 00:22:59.269 and meditation, and you learned it a lot, I guess, 00:22:59.289 --> 00:23:06.170 from Eknath Eswaran, that website. But, and what 00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:08.430 the story you tell in your foreword to this great 00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:12.430 book is that, so Eknath Eswaran goes to, you 00:23:12.430 --> 00:23:15.180 know, Gandhi is at the height of his powers leading 00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:19.220 his 300 ,000 people in prison, getting the British 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:21.980 to leave India nonviolently. And he's going to 00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:24.619 go, how does he do it? And he gets there and 00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:27.799 he's talking to Gandhi and everybody loves him. 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.220 And he's just this giant personality in this 00:23:30.220 --> 00:23:34.619 very poor person. And then he sees him meditate 00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:40.269 and he goes, oh, and he saw it. He said. Gandhi 00:23:40.269 --> 00:23:42.210 changed in front of his eyes. And that's kind 00:23:42.210 --> 00:23:44.809 of the impression I get from Jesus. Would you 00:23:44.809 --> 00:23:49.650 conclude you can't be nonviolent, much less lead 00:23:49.650 --> 00:23:52.869 or participate in nonviolent revolution or survive 00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:55.349 really in this world today without meditation, 00:23:55.650 --> 00:24:00.670 number one. And number two, in particular, Eknath 00:24:00.670 --> 00:24:03.210 Aswaram was so moved and why the book is such 00:24:03.210 --> 00:24:07.569 a unique story. that Gandhi meditated always 00:24:07.569 --> 00:24:10.029 on Chapter 2 of the Bhagavad Gita and Chapter 00:24:10.029 --> 00:24:14.250 5, the Sermon on the Mount. And this one verse, 00:24:14.309 --> 00:24:17.809 which he keeps returning to in your book, this 00:24:17.809 --> 00:24:21.970 is from the Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, that Gandhi 00:24:21.970 --> 00:24:24.529 heard every single day, along with parts of the 00:24:24.529 --> 00:24:26.890 Sermon on the Mount. It's just two or three sentences. 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:31.769 They are forever free who have broken out of 00:24:31.769 --> 00:24:36.269 the ego cage of I and mine. to be united with 00:24:36.269 --> 00:24:40.430 the Lord of love. This is the supreme state. 00:24:41.130 --> 00:24:44.869 Attain thou this and pass from death to immortality. 00:24:45.109 --> 00:24:47.369 So Gandhi's hearing that every single morning 00:24:47.369 --> 00:24:49.730 and every evening for the last 50 years of his 00:24:49.730 --> 00:24:53.710 life. The Lord of love, no more ego, and then 00:24:53.710 --> 00:24:55.289 he's hearing some of the Sermon on the Mount. 00:24:55.549 --> 00:24:57.730 I think you'd become Gandhi if you were doing 00:24:57.730 --> 00:25:00.809 that every day. That's kind of what you're saying. 00:25:01.410 --> 00:25:05.819 And you tap into... Oneness with all humanity 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:10.019 and with God. I mean, yes, let's not make any 00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:14.980 mistakes. There's a vast degree quantitatively 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:20.400 between what he achieved and what the likes of 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:26.259 I have achieved. But I've taken many steps on 00:25:26.259 --> 00:25:30.779 the same road. And it is, there's something. 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:35.950 self -reinforcing about it, so reassuring about 00:25:35.950 --> 00:25:39.210 it that, you know, you just know, like, for example, 00:25:39.309 --> 00:25:43.529 if you, conversely, if you start getting angry, 00:25:43.650 --> 00:25:47.390 your mind is telling you, stop, stop, I don't 00:25:47.390 --> 00:25:50.509 like this, I'm uncomfortable. Well, conversely, 00:25:50.509 --> 00:25:53.130 when you slow your mind down and concentrate 00:25:53.130 --> 00:25:58.690 on it, especially on a noble, higher image like 00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:05.150 that. you get a sense of wellness that basically 00:26:05.150 --> 00:26:09.410 doesn't come from anything else. You know, you 00:26:09.410 --> 00:26:12.390 can run around in life, you can be charitable 00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:17.750 and good -hearted and get rewarded with pheromones 00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:21.529 and everything that goes on in our neurophysiology. 00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:26.650 But there's something immediate and direct about 00:26:26.650 --> 00:26:30.880 the... reward that happens when you are enabled 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:37.380 to deepen your concentration. The rewarding part 00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:40.640 of it compensates for, but does not take away 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:46.240 the fact that it is awfully hard work. And you 00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.599 wrote a book called The Search for a Nonviolent 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.000 Future, and that has always been a very important 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.119 theme for me. I see it in the work of Jesus. 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.660 He's basically saying we're all blind and we 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:04.220 need vision. And I see it in all the movements 00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:08.380 from the abolitionists to Gandhi to Dr. King. 00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:10.640 Literally, Dr. King, I have a dream. I have a 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:16.180 vision. And we have no vision today in this country. 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:20.420 No leaders who are – a real leader is a visionary. 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.759 And that's why Dorothy Day talked about we're 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:26.039 stuck with the blindness of the blind leading 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:29.420 us all over the cliff as opposed to what is our 00:27:29.420 --> 00:27:33.000 future? What we need are people saying the future 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:36.960 is a nonviolent United States, a nonviolent Middle 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.960 East, a nonviolent world, a nonviolent environment. 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.160 Tell me then about your book and the importance 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:48.000 of envisioning a nonviolent future and a nonviolent 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.660 world and how ordinary folk can do that. Instead 00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:57.880 of saying doom and gloom, but actually lifting 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:01.079 up the vision and then working to make the impossible 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:09.809 probable and then actual. Wow. Well, this is 00:28:09.809 --> 00:28:13.150 so timely for you to bring that up, John, because 00:28:13.150 --> 00:28:17.730 we are now, as we speak, working on a new edition 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:22.730 of Search for a Nonviolent Future. It has come 00:28:22.730 --> 00:28:27.829 into our hands from the original publisher, Barrett 00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:31.890 Kohler. The contract has come to that point where 00:28:31.890 --> 00:28:35.170 the book is now ours, and we're designing a cover. 00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.960 We're going through it. I have to say, I read 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.980 through it recently, and I honestly don't think 00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:45.059 I need to make any major revisions. The only 00:28:45.059 --> 00:28:47.660 thing that's different is an enormous amount 00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:53.279 of resources and organizations and movements 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:57.359 and history and science that has come online. 00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:00.980 Well, tell people about the basic thesis there 00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:07.299 and your basic encouragements. I want to say 00:29:07.299 --> 00:29:14.599 that whatever is positive and true and good in 00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:20.480 human nature is real. And Gandhi was brilliant 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:25.200 about this using a quote from one of the scriptures 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:30.740 that such being or existence also means good. 00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:35.059 And so it is only really the good that exists. 00:29:36.030 --> 00:29:39.990 And it is by definition available to every one 00:29:39.990 --> 00:29:44.549 of us. Yeah, so we're very happy that when I 00:29:44.549 --> 00:29:48.230 say we folks at the Meta Center, we're a very, 00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:51.950 very nice team these days. We're very happy to 00:29:51.950 --> 00:29:54.789 have all of these resources that we've contributed. 00:29:55.309 --> 00:29:58.569 But there's also, as I was just mentioning, resources 00:29:58.569 --> 00:30:02.970 out there like the Global Nonviolent Action Database. 00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:08.039 That's housed at Swarthmore that has well over 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.859 1 ,200 episodes of nonviolence that have taken 00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:14.819 place in the last, I don't know, I think a couple 00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:18.319 of hundred years. And those resources are priceless 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.440 because we get into arguments and people will 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.460 say, yeah, but it never worked. And you say, 00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:28.920 oh, really? What about the Rosenstrasse prison 00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:31.819 demonstration? And they would say, huh, never 00:30:31.819 --> 00:30:35.490 heard of it. Because we have absolutely no non 00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:38.230 -violence education in our culture. What was 00:30:38.230 --> 00:30:42.309 the Rosenstrasser non -violence? Well, this was 00:30:42.309 --> 00:30:52.309 at the end of February 1943. The entire 6th Army 00:30:52.309 --> 00:30:57.009 of the Wehrmacht had just been defeated at Stalingrad. 00:30:57.109 --> 00:31:03.059 It was a very bad propaganda moment. There were, 00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:09.960 at that point in time, about 6 ,000 Jewish men 00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:14.119 who were married to Aryan wives. And they had 00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:18.779 not been arrested because of that Aryan connection. 00:31:19.339 --> 00:31:23.539 But they arrested them. And so they were all 00:31:23.539 --> 00:31:26.819 brought to the Jewish Community Center, a former 00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:31.339 Jewish Community Center, number 12. Rosenstrasse 00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:35.200 in Berlin. Ironically, it means Rose Street. 00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:42.440 And they were processing them to be sent to Auschwitz 00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:48.460 and wherever. But unexpectedly, shockingly, the 00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:52.819 women folk, the wives, the sisters, the daughters 00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:58.380 of these men showed up in the street. And the 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:02.039 Gestapo came out and said, this is unlawful assembly, 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:05.740 or you know, whatever they said in German. And 00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:09.559 they said, we're not going. And they stayed there 00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:13.039 for the whole weekend. It's interesting to note 00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:17.740 that the Fuhrer himself, Hitler was paralyzed. 00:32:18.099 --> 00:32:20.920 He said, I can't, I will not make this decision. 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:24.819 And he handed it down the line to other people. 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:28.619 At the end of the weekend, those men were released. 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:35.220 So this was a demonstration, not just a demonstration 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:38.359 in the sense that they're waving a placard and 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:45.559 saying, I don't like this, but a blockage, obstruction, 00:32:45.859 --> 00:32:51.960 and the willingness to do it unto death, which 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.279 gives it tremendous power. coming from women, 00:32:55.420 --> 00:32:58.400 which gives it, again, tremendous power. And 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:03.700 it shows that nonviolence worked brilliantly 00:33:03.700 --> 00:33:08.319 against Hitler when it was tried. So we ought 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:12.079 to never again be caught in the situation of 00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:16.200 not having it on hand, not having the trained 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:20.619 people, not having the techniques to mobilize 00:33:20.619 --> 00:33:25.460 it instantly. When this kind of authoritarianism 00:33:25.460 --> 00:33:30.460 happens again, no names, please. No particular 00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:32.599 countries, of course, that I'm talking about 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:37.200 here. But of course, nonviolence is much better 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.200 developed now. We have institutions like Nonviolent 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:46.420 Peace Force that are carrying out interventions. 00:33:47.819 --> 00:33:51.319 And really, there's about 20 organizations doing 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.519 this kind of thing. And I think they're probably 00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:59.400 operating in probably about 60 countries around 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:03.039 the world. I'm not sure about that. But what's 00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:05.980 happening is we're building up steadily a trained 00:34:05.980 --> 00:34:11.739 cadre of volunteers or, you know, participants. 00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.300 They're not always required to volunteer. who 00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:21.760 are trained to go into conflict zones and defuse 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:26.639 conflict without violence. And so we have the 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:31.699 history, we have new institutions, we have the 00:34:31.699 --> 00:34:35.579 science, we have everything we need to really 00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:38.760 turn this around. What we have to buck or we 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.840 have to go against is the cultural conditioning. 00:34:43.190 --> 00:34:46.550 telling us the exact opposite of the truth. Well, 00:34:46.670 --> 00:34:48.829 thank you so much for all your good work teaching 00:34:48.829 --> 00:34:51.030 nonviolence and reminding us. That is one of 00:34:51.030 --> 00:34:53.469 my favorite stories. And we could talk about 00:34:53.469 --> 00:34:56.010 so many others of the nonviolence resistance 00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:59.570 in Denmark and Bulgaria and Norway to Hitler. 00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:03.550 But as you say, what we need is all of us to 00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:06.849 do our homework now and to go out and organize 00:35:06.849 --> 00:35:09.789 now here in the U .S. and wherever we are in 00:35:09.789 --> 00:35:13.730 the world. And as Jesus to Gandhi to Dr. King 00:35:13.730 --> 00:35:16.489 and all the great peacemakers of history have 00:35:16.489 --> 00:35:19.250 taught us. Michael, is there anything else? We're 00:35:19.250 --> 00:35:21.289 out of time, but anything else you want to mention 00:35:21.289 --> 00:35:24.309 before we close? Oh, I guess the last thing you 00:35:24.309 --> 00:35:27.010 said, John, makes me want to say that, you know, 00:35:27.030 --> 00:35:32.030 just as King, in a moment of despair, actually 00:35:32.030 --> 00:35:37.519 heard Jesus tell him, I will be with you. In 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:41.739 a more remote way, unfortunately, because of 00:35:41.739 --> 00:35:46.480 our obtuseness, all of those greats are there 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:49.659 as personalities in addition to all the resources. 00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:55.219 Yeah, and I suppose I should plug our website, 00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:59.099 the Meta Center. Meta with two Ts, metacenter 00:35:59.099 --> 00:36:05.889 .org, and our biweekly podcast. It is becoming 00:36:05.889 --> 00:36:09.670 very, very popular. And we would love to hear 00:36:09.670 --> 00:36:13.010 from you folks. What can we do for you? What 00:36:13.010 --> 00:36:16.250 stories would you like to contribute? And so 00:36:16.250 --> 00:36:19.559 forth. Oh, that's great. God bless you all. Thank 00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.780 you so much, Michael Nagler, for speaking with 00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:25.239 me today. And yes, do check out metacenter .org 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:27.260 and all the good work that Michael and his team 00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:30.079 are doing. So thank you, friends, so much for 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.940 listening to this edition of the Nonviolent Jesus 00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:36.340 Podcast. You can hear more podcasts and find 00:36:36.340 --> 00:36:39.539 other upcoming Zoom programs at beatitudecenter 00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:43.619 .org. Please consider offering a donation to 00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:46.320 support this free work. And if you can, leave 00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:50.239 some positive feedback or review at NCR or Apple 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.380 or Spotify or whatever platform you use. And 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:55.659 mainly, please just help tell your friends about 00:36:55.659 --> 00:36:59.800 this podcast and spread the good word. So may 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.000 the God of peace bless you all and keep on following 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.679 the nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.