WEBVTT 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:18.660 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.660 --> 00:00:21.219 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.219 --> 00:00:25.500 with my friend, Reverend Matthew Fox. This podcast 00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:31.519 is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:34.140 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:37.320 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:40.179 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:40.179 --> 00:00:44.350 just, more peaceful, more nonviolent world. So 00:00:44.350 --> 00:00:45.990 I always like to begin with a little prayer. 00:00:46.090 --> 00:00:48.770 So I invite everyone listening to wherever you 00:00:48.770 --> 00:00:52.770 are just to stop and take a deep breath and just 00:00:52.770 --> 00:00:57.070 to relax and recenter yourself and notice how 00:00:57.070 --> 00:01:00.750 you're feeling as we begin. And I invite you 00:01:00.750 --> 00:01:04.030 again into the presence of the God of peace who 00:01:04.030 --> 00:01:08.650 loves you infinitely and personally. And let's 00:01:08.650 --> 00:01:12.219 welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just 00:01:12.219 --> 00:01:14.680 take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:17.879 to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:26.379 and to do the will of the God of peace. God of 00:01:26.379 --> 00:01:29.359 peace, thank you for all the many blessings of 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:32.500 life and love and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:35.659 with us now as we reflect together on your call 00:01:35.659 --> 00:01:39.420 to follow the nonviolent Jesus. Bless us, inspire 00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:43.379 us, disarm us. Strengthen us and send us out 00:01:43.379 --> 00:01:47.060 to do your will, live out your gospel, and do 00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:51.359 our part to help end poverty, war, racism and 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.799 greed, injustice, nuclear weapons, environmental 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.840 destruction, that we might be your beatitude 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.780 people, your holy peacemakers who welcome your 00:02:01.780 --> 00:02:05.439 reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.659 on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's a great 00:02:09.659 --> 00:02:12.659 pleasure to welcome my friend Matthew Fox, a 00:02:12.659 --> 00:02:14.960 world -renowned theologian, Episcopal priest, 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:19.099 and an activist for justice and creation. Matthew's 00:02:19.099 --> 00:02:21.680 written 37 books that have been translated into 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:25.120 other languages over 70 times. Among them, all 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:28.620 these great bestsellers are like Original Blessing, 00:02:28.699 --> 00:02:32.419 The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, A Spirituality 00:02:32.419 --> 00:02:36.240 Named Compassion, The Reinvention of Work, The 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.680 Hidden Spirituality of Men. and Christian Mystics 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:42.560 and the Pope's War. He has contributed much to 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.780 the rediscovery of Hildegard of Bingen, Meister 00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:49.099 Eckhart, and Thomas Aquinas. He holds a doctorate 00:02:49.099 --> 00:02:52.120 in history and the theology of spirituality from 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.520 the Institut Catholique de Paris. He's the founder 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:57.800 of the University of Creation Spirituality in 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:01.319 California and conducts workshops every year. 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:05.219 His latest book is Naming the Unnameable, 89 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:08.569 Wonderful and Useful Names for God. He's currently 00:03:08.569 --> 00:03:11.270 a visiting scholar at the Academy of the Love 00:03:11.270 --> 00:03:14.969 of Learning in Santa Fe and resides in Vallejo, 00:03:15.030 --> 00:03:18.069 California. Welcome, Matthew Fox, to the Nonviolent 00:03:18.069 --> 00:03:20.349 Jesus podcast. Thanks for giving me a little 00:03:20.349 --> 00:03:23.490 time. Thank you, John. It's great to be with 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:27.270 you. Well, let's jump right into the crisis we're 00:03:27.270 --> 00:03:29.610 all facing here at home with the Trump administration, 00:03:29.969 --> 00:03:33.330 dismantling the government and democracy, attacking 00:03:33.330 --> 00:03:37.169 the Constitution, and moving us into authoritarianism 00:03:37.169 --> 00:03:42.310 and fascism and really white supremacy. And many, 00:03:42.430 --> 00:03:44.969 many church people, Christians here in the United 00:03:44.969 --> 00:03:47.969 States, going right along with this MAGA movement 00:03:47.969 --> 00:03:51.770 and moving deeper into, what, Christian nationalism. 00:03:53.259 --> 00:03:55.800 as I say, white supremacy, and you've written 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:59.639 recently a lot about Trump and MAGA. So tell 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.139 us what you think about this situation, this 00:04:02.139 --> 00:04:06.759 crisis, from your perspective, and what is the 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.139 Christian response? I know that's a big question, 00:04:09.219 --> 00:04:11.319 but people want to hear what you have to say, 00:04:11.379 --> 00:04:17.839 Matthew. Well, it's a reality. We're in the middle 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:23.139 of a coup. And American democracy, as imperfect 00:04:23.139 --> 00:04:30.100 as it is, is being hijacked in the name of authoritarianism 00:04:30.100 --> 00:04:34.699 and billionaires and the rule of the few, a government 00:04:34.699 --> 00:04:38.879 by the few, for the few, and of the few. And 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:44.000 I wrote about this. Obviously, you saw it coming. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.740 I saw it coming. But last June, I was teaching 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:50.269 in Orvieto, California. Italy, Orvieto, Italy. 00:04:50.730 --> 00:04:54.509 I was teaching a week class on Thomas Aquinas 00:04:54.509 --> 00:04:57.350 because it was the 800th anniversary of his birth. 00:04:57.730 --> 00:05:03.370 And he taught in Orvieto. And my Italian friend, 00:05:03.550 --> 00:05:06.509 he took me to the cathedral there, which is a 00:05:06.509 --> 00:05:09.069 very beautiful cathedral. Some people call it 00:05:09.069 --> 00:05:12.069 the most beautiful cathedral in Europe. And he 00:05:12.069 --> 00:05:15.209 took me to this one chapel within it, a big chapel. 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:17.230 He didn't say anything. He put me in front of 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:20.579 this fresco. giant fresco and i just stared at 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:23.360 it and i said out loud first word i said was 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.899 it feels like donald trump and then i looked 00:05:26.899 --> 00:05:30.720 at the title the title was the antichrist preaching 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.019 and deeds of the antichrist so i went home and 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:36.319 wrote a book called trump and the mega movement 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:40.879 as antichrist i had to rush it and get it all 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.800 passed before the election uh but it contains 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:49.480 a lot of um of language, I think, and understanding 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:52.259 of what's really going on, because Antichrist 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:56.779 is an archetype for evil. And what's going on 00:05:56.779 --> 00:06:01.120 is evil. It's not just different politics. And 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:06.879 the painting... It was done by Lucas Signorelli 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:09.980 in 1501, the very beginning of the 16th century. 00:06:10.139 --> 00:06:14.360 It contains, I think, 176 characters in it, including 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.019 there are these ninja -like young people running 00:06:18.019 --> 00:06:20.720 around in the black, all dressed in black. And 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:24.699 to me, they remind me of Elon Musk's fellows 00:06:24.699 --> 00:06:27.480 who are invading Social Security or stealing 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:33.540 our addresses and Social Security number. over 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:37.040 the years they've been called um a ku klux klan 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.959 and black and so forth so there's just a lot 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.720 in that painting and then i look again on hildegard 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.079 of demons painting of the antichrist in the cross 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:49.139 century and her painting is extremely stark and 00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:53.439 stunning and it draws on apocalyptic imagery 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.899 from the book of revelation and um and it's uh 00:06:57.899 --> 00:07:01.500 it shows patriarchy as being at the center of 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:04.959 things of the darkness the unraveling she she 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:08.300 demonstrates the unraveling of order that's going 00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:12.540 on and she has animals that represent greed and 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:15.819 that represent war likeness and that represent 00:07:15.819 --> 00:07:21.579 our envy um they're undoing the ropes of society 00:07:21.579 --> 00:07:26.000 and uh and she comments on talks about the role 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.839 of injustice and all this so these are two just 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:32.870 two powerful statements from our our history 00:07:32.870 --> 00:07:36.589 our christian history about evil and what i like 00:07:36.589 --> 00:07:39.389 about both of them is they don't hold back um 00:07:39.389 --> 00:07:42.410 that they're they're stark they're in your face 00:07:42.410 --> 00:07:46.089 just like the book of apocalypse is and and the 00:07:46.089 --> 00:07:49.850 book of daniel is and um there's so much cover 00:07:49.850 --> 00:07:52.589 -up there's so much denial there's so much um 00:07:52.589 --> 00:07:57.709 yes but in the media and in religious circles 00:07:57.709 --> 00:08:01.769 i mean i found uh after the book came out The 00:08:01.769 --> 00:08:05.930 so -called religious journals were afraid to 00:08:05.930 --> 00:08:09.350 touch my book. They don't want to talk about 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:12.910 evil. You see, the church has put so much energy 00:08:12.910 --> 00:08:18.329 in talking about sin that they haven't even developed 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:21.170 a language for talking about evil. And there's 00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:23.009 a difference between sin and evil. And I really 00:08:23.009 --> 00:08:26.149 learned it from my Lakota friend, Buck Ghosthorse. 00:08:26.389 --> 00:08:29.949 He said to me, in our tradition, fear is a door 00:08:29.949 --> 00:08:34.879 in the heart. lets evil spirits in. So all real 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:37.639 prayer is strengthening your heart so that evil 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:42.340 spirits stay outside that door. And in one of 00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:45.299 my books, a major book on evil, I compare the 00:08:45.299 --> 00:08:49.240 seven capitalists of the West to the seven chakras 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:53.360 of the East. So each of our chakras is a door, 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:57.440 like that fourth chakra that Malkosa was talking 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.850 about, the heart chakra. And we have to realize, 00:09:01.090 --> 00:09:04.110 you know, the door, we have to be perceptive 00:09:04.110 --> 00:09:06.289 about when to open the door and for whom to open 00:09:06.289 --> 00:09:09.370 the door. But we also have to be strong, as Buck 00:09:09.370 --> 00:09:13.929 says, to resist letting fear and evil spirits. 00:09:14.090 --> 00:09:17.230 That's the point, that evil is something spiritual. 00:09:17.549 --> 00:09:22.129 The opposite of evil is not good. The opposite 00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:27.429 of good is bad. The opposite of evil is the sacred. 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.419 And evil operates at the level of the sacred. 00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:34.299 It operates in a world of spirit. So I think 00:09:34.299 --> 00:09:37.440 that evil spirits are involved in the takeover 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:43.580 of the Supreme Court by Opus Dei and Leonardo 00:09:43.580 --> 00:09:46.419 Leo and these far -right fascist Roman Catholics. 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.200 And I think evil is involved, obviously, in this 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:55.419 whole Omega movement. And again, Opus Dei is 00:09:55.419 --> 00:09:58.139 very evident in that movement. and other far 00:09:58.139 --> 00:10:02.200 -right movements, both evangelical and Catholic. 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:07.080 So these forces are very big, and evil is smart, 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.679 it's intelligent, it goes where the power is, 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:14.000 and it plans way ahead. This movement that is 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:17.200 culminating in Trump, he didn't begin it. It 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:21.580 began at least 40 years ago, and has gathered 00:10:21.580 --> 00:10:24.340 kind of like a storm or something. Like you said, 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.419 it's gathered racism. It's gathered revenge and 00:10:30.419 --> 00:10:34.500 resentment. And all this is gathered in the storm 00:10:34.500 --> 00:10:37.100 and the dust of it all. But they are prepared, 00:10:37.340 --> 00:10:39.500 as we know. And, of course, I wrote a chapter 00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:43.580 on Project 2025 in my book. I point out 18 points 00:10:43.580 --> 00:10:47.139 there within it that are utterly anti -Christ. 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.899 So the chapter on Christ and what he stood for, 00:10:50.059 --> 00:10:54.470 like your wonderful book on the Beatitudes. And 00:10:54.470 --> 00:10:57.710 then the next chapter is Antichrist. Antichrist 00:10:57.710 --> 00:10:59.970 is the opposite of Christ. So, you know, that's 00:10:59.970 --> 00:11:03.049 not hard to get. So our ancestors have language 00:11:03.049 --> 00:11:07.629 to talk about evil. But our media is, even our 00:11:07.629 --> 00:11:10.230 so -called religious media, is afraid to talk 00:11:10.230 --> 00:11:12.210 about evil. They want to talk about sin. They 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:14.960 don't want to talk about evil. Right. Well, gosh, 00:11:15.179 --> 00:11:17.639 thank you, Matthew. So much to reflect on there. 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.580 Nobody talks about evil, but I'm thinking so 00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:23.559 much as you're speaking of my friends, the Jesuit 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:25.580 martyrs from El Salvador, remember, who were 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:28.960 killed in 1989. They talked about evil when I 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.340 was with them, and they were naming the death 00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:34.340 squads as evil. And we don't do that here. And 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.379 I remember, just to reflect with you a little 00:11:37.379 --> 00:11:41.340 bit about all this before I move on. Growing 00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:43.700 up, my teachers, you know, was Daniel Berrigan. 00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:46.200 The first time I met him 45 years ago, he said, 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:49.000 what we're up against is not just a person, but 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.620 he was paraphrasing St. Paul and the principalities. 00:11:51.700 --> 00:11:54.639 And he said, it's death. Anything that brings 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:59.639 death, the methodology of death is what, because 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.840 Christ came that we might have life on the fullness 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:06.409 of life. And when I see what's going on now, 00:12:06.529 --> 00:12:09.389 just the slashing of – it's hard to take in the 00:12:09.389 --> 00:12:12.190 billions and billions of aid that went to Africa 00:12:12.190 --> 00:12:16.830 and Latin America. It's gone. And then yesterday 00:12:16.830 --> 00:12:20.129 as we're recording this, just the – he's over 00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:23.490 there just flaunting over the incredible greed 00:12:23.490 --> 00:12:28.210 of the trillionaires in Saudi Arabia. He's grueling 00:12:28.210 --> 00:12:31.470 for his own airplane. Yeah, it's no – but it's 00:12:31.470 --> 00:12:36.210 so far beyond – Him or narcissism, it's just, 00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:40.710 as you're saying, it's the spread of real evil, 00:12:40.809 --> 00:12:45.850 and we're all getting co -opted by it. And so, 00:12:45.950 --> 00:12:49.889 whereas Christ was calling us to spread goodness, 00:12:49.950 --> 00:12:52.250 Dr. King even talked about organized goodness 00:12:52.250 --> 00:12:55.049 and organized love, and the fullness of life 00:12:55.049 --> 00:13:02.370 for every human being. And I couldn't agree more 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:05.629 about... St. Paul, the battle is against powers 00:13:05.629 --> 00:13:08.789 and principalities. Those are names for angels, 00:13:08.970 --> 00:13:13.330 for spirits, bad spirits. That was what Bob Goldstein 00:13:13.330 --> 00:13:16.909 was saying. The battle is not just against the 00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:20.950 human, but there are these forces. And I say 00:13:20.950 --> 00:13:24.009 that you don't have to call, you don't have to 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:27.289 use the name Satan or Beelzebub or Lucifer, but 00:13:27.289 --> 00:13:32.830 the words racism and sexism and... unbridled 00:13:32.830 --> 00:13:36.250 capitalism, which is unbridled greed. All these 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:41.330 are idols. All these are gods and goddesses and 00:13:41.330 --> 00:13:45.769 angels. They're spirits, evil spirits. And you 00:13:45.769 --> 00:13:48.269 know they're spirit because they come back every 00:13:48.269 --> 00:13:52.470 generation. Humans die off. And we had a civil 00:13:52.470 --> 00:13:56.429 rights law and movement there 60 years ago, but 00:13:56.429 --> 00:13:59.659 it's gradually been undone. by the occurrence 00:13:59.659 --> 00:14:02.759 of being caught and so forth. So you realize, 00:14:02.899 --> 00:14:05.220 yeah, we are swimming in a world that's bigger 00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:07.120 than just the human when you're talking about 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:10.659 evil. And that is part of the Jesus story, that 00:14:10.659 --> 00:14:15.759 he took on these forces and promised that he 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.399 would, you know, continue to do so, that we have 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:22.519 support from many places, our ancestors, the 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.580 community of saints, but also from the world 00:14:25.580 --> 00:14:29.740 of spirit, the Holy Spirit. And these prophetic 00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:32.679 people, like you mentioned, the Jesuit martyrs, 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.440 that made me, in Central America, it made me 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:42.259 think of my former student who was martyred in 00:14:42.259 --> 00:14:46.379 the Amazon, Sister Dorothy Spang, on behalf of 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:49.240 defending the peasants there and the local farmers 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:53.139 and, of course, the rainforest. Beautiful people. 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.679 Bishop Casadaglia, the year of silence, they 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:58.519 went and visited him. A real saint. Yeah, I knew 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:03.740 him too. Great man. And he was silenced by the 00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:08.240 Vatican. And so in our lifetime, in my lifetime, 00:15:08.539 --> 00:15:11.320 I think there have been more martyrs in South 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.220 America and Central America than there were in 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:16.700 the first century of the Christian church in 00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:19.500 Rome. And we don't look at it that way, but I 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:22.029 think it's actually counted them. Because, you 00:15:22.029 --> 00:15:24.210 know, tens of thousands of people have been murdered 00:15:24.210 --> 00:15:27.110 in the base communities and liberation theology 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:30.129 movements of South America. And they have moved 00:15:30.129 --> 00:15:33.450 things from a dominant dictatorial political 00:15:33.450 --> 00:15:37.950 scene to a quest for a democratic scene in most 00:15:37.950 --> 00:15:42.250 places. So, you know, there's been some progress 00:15:42.250 --> 00:15:47.549 and some redemption that's been going on, but 00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:50.879 also so much. opposition, including in the churches. 00:15:51.299 --> 00:15:54.259 So Matthew, you've spent your life, it seems 00:15:54.259 --> 00:15:57.740 to me, among other ways to frame it, writing 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:01.120 about and teaching about spirituality. And another 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:03.659 way to put what we're talking about are all the 00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:06.840 false spiritualities of violence and injustice 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:11.000 and war and racism, the false theologies and 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.779 the idols, the false gods. So what we need is 00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:17.279 the true spirituality, I suppose. I don't know 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.139 how else to put it. But I would like you, if 00:16:21.139 --> 00:16:24.460 you could just say a little bit about spirituality 00:16:24.460 --> 00:16:27.799 in general that would be authentic of the gospel. 00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:31.039 For me, that would mean how can people live a 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.419 spirituality of peace and love, universal love. 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:36.879 But that's why I keep going back to Dr. King's 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:40.200 words on violence, which means you can't have 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.330 anything to do with violence. or killing, or 00:16:43.330 --> 00:16:46.490 death. So maybe even a spirituality of nonviolence. 00:16:47.809 --> 00:16:51.110 Yeah, well, I also like your quote from your 00:16:51.110 --> 00:16:55.870 mentor, Dan Berrigan, about death. Death is a 00:16:55.870 --> 00:17:04.430 synonym for evil. And, you know, one of the best 00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:08.369 books ever read on evil was by Eric Fromm. And, 00:17:08.450 --> 00:17:11.950 of course, he comes out of the Holocaust. being 00:17:11.950 --> 00:17:17.930 Jewish, and he says that necrophilia grows when 00:17:17.930 --> 00:17:21.890 biophilia is stunted. Necrophilia grows when 00:17:21.890 --> 00:17:24.450 biophilia is stunted. So necrophilia is this 00:17:24.450 --> 00:17:28.309 love of death, just what Bergen knew for you 00:17:28.309 --> 00:17:31.869 when you were a young man. But the opposite, 00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:35.529 or the medicine, is biophilia, the love of life. 00:17:36.009 --> 00:17:40.319 And as you cited... The passage from John, you 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:41.900 know, come ye to the middle of life and have 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:45.440 an abundance. Well, that's biophilia. So we need 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.799 a spirituality of biophilia. Yes. What the mystics 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.720 call the via positiva, falling in love with life. 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:57.339 The last chapter in my Trump and mega -movement 00:17:57.339 --> 00:18:00.500 as Antichrist book, the title of it is called 00:18:00.500 --> 00:18:04.380 Be Like a Camel. Because I think we're living 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:07.000 through a dark night, a dark night of our species. 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.099 uh because of global warming that we've brought 00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:13.000 about we don't know if our but we do know we're 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.900 facing our extinction and 100 million other species 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:19.180 are facing their extinction and so there's a 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:21.440 diet night of our species and there's the dark 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.460 night of society uh and the dark night of our 00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:30.740 souls it all goes together and um How do we get 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:33.440 through this dark night, which is a desert, like 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.099 a camel? A camel goes to the watering hole before 00:18:37.099 --> 00:18:39.640 a crust in the desert and fills up this big hump 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:42.400 of his because he knows he's going to get dry. 00:18:42.700 --> 00:18:44.980 So that's what we have to do. That's what real 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:49.619 spirituality is. It's practical. It's keeping 00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:55.380 your energy intact and your values grounded. 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.279 And it is filling up on biophilia because all 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.519 the forces of necrophilia within us and within 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:06.579 society and our structures, you know, they're 00:19:06.579 --> 00:19:08.819 going to be raining down on us. That's what people 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:13.619 are feeling today. And so there are ways to defend 00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:19.119 yourself. And one is to love life in an ever 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:26.190 greater tasting of it. As we get on this journey, 00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:27.849 and of course we're in the journey together, 00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:30.970 this is not a single camel, it's a caravan of 00:19:30.970 --> 00:19:34.269 camels. Those of us who are trying to cross this 00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:41.069 desert and speak out and resist, and resist nonviolence, 00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:45.230 sometimes with me, going to jail and so forth, 00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:51.529 and speak out, and all these efforts to say no. 00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:55.809 which is the prophetic word. We have to say no, 00:19:55.890 --> 00:19:57.930 but we also have to say yes and never take it 00:19:57.930 --> 00:20:00.490 away. And he asks us that mystical acceptance 00:20:00.490 --> 00:20:04.829 of the beauty of life, of the goodness that you 00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.529 talked about earlier. And that's my term, original 00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:12.890 blessing, that Genesis 1 is a cosmology of how 00:20:12.890 --> 00:20:15.670 good the world is and how very good, even when 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:18.470 humans come on board, the whole circle of creation 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:23.150 is very good. And so that's what we have to drink 00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:27.029 in and fill up on. That's spiritual practice 00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:31.069 for today. And because we're up against these 00:20:31.069 --> 00:20:36.670 necrophiliac forces of greed and violence and 00:20:36.670 --> 00:20:42.329 envy and all these other forces that spread fear 00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:45.769 and spread darkness. And it's one reason I'm 00:20:45.769 --> 00:20:48.549 writing about John the Cross now, because he... 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.000 He himself was an absolute activist. That's what 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:54.519 got him in trouble. People separate him when 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:58.039 they think he's talking this stuff about contemplation, 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:02.019 but his real transformation was in prison when 00:21:02.019 --> 00:21:04.440 he was being tortured by his own Carmelite brothers 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:07.880 on a daily basis. He almost died, and then he 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.319 wrote poetry there in his head because he didn't 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:15.200 have the paper. And the poetry was all about 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.710 love. he was reproducing the song of songs it 00:21:19.710 --> 00:21:22.250 was about falling in love with creation and seeking 00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:26.109 his beloved in creation and uh that's what we 00:21:26.109 --> 00:21:29.150 have to realize that there's 13 .8 billion years 00:21:29.150 --> 00:21:31.369 that have brought us forward brought this amazing 00:21:31.369 --> 00:21:34.910 earth here it's in jeopardy right now because 00:21:34.910 --> 00:21:37.549 of our species and it should be able to unite 00:21:37.549 --> 00:21:40.430 all of our species all of our countries and all 00:21:40.430 --> 00:21:43.490 of our ideologies should be able to unite around 00:21:43.490 --> 00:21:48.900 gratitude for our existence And that's Biophilia. 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:54.059 That's wonderful, Matthew. When you write this 00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:57.440 book, do you remember, do you have a copy? I 00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.940 would encourage you to get a copy of The Dark 00:21:59.940 --> 00:22:02.880 Night of Resistance by Dan Berrigan. When he 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.200 went underground in 1970 and for months the FBI 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.700 was chasing after him. he wrote a book about 00:22:09.700 --> 00:22:13.059 the experience while underground. And he used 00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:16.460 John of the Cross. And so he's talking about 00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:19.240 being underground and resisting the Vietnam War 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.400 with texts from St. John of the Cross, as only 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.720 Dan could do. Thanks for reminding me of that. 00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:29.420 Yeah, and I think it's the most creative writing 00:22:29.420 --> 00:22:32.619 Dan ever did. Because from John of the Cross, 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.900 he says, well, in the end, to be human is to 00:22:35.900 --> 00:22:40.559 resist. And resistance is a mystical contemplative 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:43.400 practice. Isn't that great? It's not what you 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:45.099 would have expected, not what anybody expected, 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:47.420 Dan Berger, right? But I want to move on and 00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:48.660 ask you about... Another way of saying that is 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.359 to be human is to have a conscience. Yeah, but 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.180 a conscience demands action. It tells you to 00:22:53.180 --> 00:22:56.099 say no, it tells you to resist. Yeah, say yes 00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:58.720 and no and no. I want to ask you about Jesus, 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:03.359 Matthew. As you know, I've sort of put my chips 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.680 on talking about the nonviolence of Jesus. even 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:10.819 in light of all the issues or whatever you call 00:23:10.819 --> 00:23:13.619 them, maybe they're not issues, every war, I 00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:17.160 keep, as a way of responding and dealing with 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.819 audiences, I say, well, what would Jesus have 00:23:19.819 --> 00:23:23.299 us to do? But Gandhi and Dr. King said, Jesus 00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:25.759 was the most nonviolent person who ever lived. 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.400 And if we want to follow him, we have to be nonviolent. 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:31.920 So that's why I keep talking about the nonviolent 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.319 Jesus. I just wanted to ask you to reflect with 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:40.720 me. on your take on Jesus these days, or even 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.180 the nonviolence of Jesus. And I was thinking 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:45.220 about this driving over here this morning, and 00:23:45.220 --> 00:23:48.079 I thought, well, what a thing to ask you, Matthew. 00:23:48.579 --> 00:23:51.079 But, you know, it's a great question. What are 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:54.539 you thinking about Jesus these days? Yeah. Well, 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.680 first, I want to thank you for your life's work 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.940 and your writing in your recent book on the Beatitudes 00:24:00.940 --> 00:24:05.000 of Jesus, which you gifted me with an advanced 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.940 manuscript of that. Because, you know, in fact, 00:24:10.059 --> 00:24:13.220 Thomas Aquinas says the essence of Christianity 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:16.480 is found in the Beatitudes. Wow. I didn't know 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.319 he said that. Yeah, that's what you've been working 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.039 on. So Beatitudes represent Jesus' teaching, 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.259 of course. And I think you've done a very fresh 00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:29.799 remake of the Beatitudes. I myself am teaching 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.599 a 24 -week course coming up on Shift Network, 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:37.160 which is about Christianity 2 .0. where I'm trying 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.299 to go back to Jesus, but also to the mystics 00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:45.319 and prophets who interpreted them over the last 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:49.200 2 ,000 years, including people like Thomas Merton, 00:24:49.339 --> 00:24:52.740 who is, of course, Bergen's mentor and so forth, 00:24:52.880 --> 00:25:00.059 who saw what you're seeing, especially in modern 00:25:00.059 --> 00:25:03.839 times of this horrible warfare we've invented. 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.119 that, you know, nonviolence, and of course, King 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.880 and Gandhi, that nonviolence is the only way 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.359 to get there. But the nonviolence, of course, 00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:16.380 where does it begin? It begins with ourselves. 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:20.220 It's kind of, it's, you know, it's what even 00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:25.000 Muhammad said about the jihad, that the primary 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.819 jihad is that inside our own souls. So we're 00:25:28.819 --> 00:25:31.380 all carrying the seeds, as Thich Nhat Hanh says, 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.599 the seeds of violence. and the seeds of non -violence 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.500 and you know we have to be aware of that and 00:25:38.500 --> 00:25:42.140 then we have to say how do we contribute uh to 00:25:42.140 --> 00:25:45.339 nurturing the seeds of non -violence versus the 00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:48.740 seeds of violence and um that doesn't mean to 00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:51.240 me that does not mean we don't have moral outrage 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.960 in fact we have to pay attention to our anger 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:57.700 uh aquinas says nothing great happens without 00:25:57.700 --> 00:26:01.670 anger So anger is that fire that in the valley, 00:26:01.769 --> 00:26:03.829 the moral libraries have said, this is, well, 00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:07.109 outrageous. I have to say no. I have to stand 00:26:07.109 --> 00:26:10.869 up and say no. And so, you know, some people, 00:26:10.910 --> 00:26:13.609 I think, misinterpret nonviolence. And I think 00:26:13.609 --> 00:26:16.630 the dualistic tradition of Augustine says that 00:26:16.630 --> 00:26:19.069 only anger is a sin. No, anger is not a sin. 00:26:19.349 --> 00:26:22.809 Violence is a sin. Violence is anger taken to 00:26:22.809 --> 00:26:26.990 the point where it's destroying others or oneself. 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:31.759 Whereas we have to, as Mr. Eckhart says, put 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:36.779 a bridle on your passion of anger. And what's 00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:39.779 a bridle? And he says the bridle is a bridle 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:43.200 of love. And so a bridle is a stirring instrument 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.640 for a horse. So think of anger as a stallion 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.140 we all have inside of us. So we're going to lock 00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:51.970 it up in there. barn and call that nonviolence? 00:26:51.990 --> 00:26:54.750 No. You get the stallion out. You learn to ride 00:26:54.750 --> 00:26:57.269 it, but you learn to stare at that bridle of 00:26:57.269 --> 00:26:59.730 love so that you're in charge of your anger, 00:26:59.809 --> 00:27:03.809 and the anger is not running you or your community 00:27:03.809 --> 00:27:07.549 or your government, et cetera, et cetera. So 00:27:07.549 --> 00:27:11.750 I think the whole language of nonviolence, we 00:27:11.750 --> 00:27:15.380 have to apply it to ourselves. as well as to 00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:18.059 our structures, because that's where it begins, 00:27:18.259 --> 00:27:20.640 where people are full of resentment, where they're 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.880 full of outrage, and that you want to project 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.619 it onto others, often because they're ignorant 00:27:27.619 --> 00:27:29.920 of themselves, that where it's coming from in 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.039 their own wounds, in their own story, in their 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.819 own suffering, in their own abuse. All that has 00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:42.420 to be mined. All that has to be, well, melted. 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:48.920 uh by love and by wisdom and by awareness so 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.720 i think a big bag opens up when you use the words 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.619 violence and non -violence it's not just our 00:27:55.619 --> 00:28:00.180 structures it's not just um bad people we can 00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:03.640 name but it's it's seeds are in all of us as 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.319 tickman says and that's where the some of the 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:13.349 deep deep deep digging has to happen Oh, that's 00:28:13.349 --> 00:28:17.710 great, Matthew. When you say, you know, we have 00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:20.930 to say no to these things and yes to the good 00:28:20.930 --> 00:28:24.430 things of life. Really, I think I hear you saying 00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:28.970 that as we reflect on spirituality and authentic 00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:31.930 spirituality in a culture with so much evil and 00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:36.789 death happening, we're talking about being a 00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:39.799 prophetic people. So I wanted to ask you about 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:42.519 that. And that's what happened in Latin America. 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:46.460 And our own teachers, Dr. King, Dorothy Day, 00:28:46.660 --> 00:28:51.259 Merton, the Bericans, were, I think, really great 00:28:51.259 --> 00:28:53.579 prophets. And there are prophets out there today. 00:28:53.660 --> 00:28:57.839 But maybe we could say that together we are called 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:01.619 to be. Prophetic communities and prophetic movements. 00:29:01.819 --> 00:29:03.839 That's what, to me, the way I'm looking at it. 00:29:03.859 --> 00:29:06.819 What I'm looking for in the church is to be prophetic 00:29:06.819 --> 00:29:09.420 people, communities, movements that speak out 00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:12.680 against not just the loss of democracy, but the 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:15.960 threat of total war and environmental destruction. 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:22.119 Tell me about that. I don't even know how to 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:24.359 ask. What would a prophetic church look like? 00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:28.029 How can we teach each other? Like a whole new 00:29:28.029 --> 00:29:30.569 school of the prophets like they had in the scriptures. 00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:35.450 Encourage people to be a prophetic people. Yeah. 00:29:35.509 --> 00:29:40.329 Well, great question. And, you know, of course, 00:29:40.329 --> 00:29:45.410 as far as prophet goes, Rabbi Heschel says the 00:29:45.410 --> 00:29:47.269 primary work of the prophet is to interfere. 00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:52.630 Is what? Rabbi Heschel, who wrote the great volume 00:29:52.630 --> 00:29:55.369 on the prophet, also walked it and lived it. 00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:57.910 He says the primary work of the prophet is to 00:29:57.910 --> 00:30:02.130 interfere. To interfere. Wow. Interfere, yeah. 00:30:02.269 --> 00:30:04.930 And that's saying no. But that's what we're called 00:30:04.930 --> 00:30:08.029 to do, to interfere. But again, to interfere, 00:30:08.269 --> 00:30:11.509 you have to be in love. So there's a dialectic 00:30:11.509 --> 00:30:14.369 between the mystic is a lover in us, and the 00:30:14.369 --> 00:30:18.180 prophet is the defender of what we cherish. of 00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:21.859 who is willing to interfere when what we love 00:30:21.859 --> 00:30:26.400 is endangered for example mother earth and so 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.700 many other creatures but also one another and 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:32.519 and like you're saying yeah i think the real 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.359 church is people and vatican ii got on board 00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.960 with that it's people who are doing their best 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:44.380 to live out the the yes in life the mystic in 00:30:44.380 --> 00:30:47.339 them the lover in them and the prophet the noble 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.500 and the one who interferes in another word for 00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:53.240 prophet is warrior actually like you get in the 00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.400 christmas midnight mass from the book of wisdom 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.220 you know that the the stern warrior left from 00:31:00.220 --> 00:31:04.259 the heavens to the doomed land and that's just 00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:06.700 a beautiful passage i love down the cross uses 00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:11.220 it too but um it's um it names the incarnation 00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:15.839 the entrance of the divine into the struggles, 00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:21.819 the doomed land, the doomed history of our species. 00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:27.660 So all these wonderful images we have and stories 00:31:27.660 --> 00:31:34.180 we have and symbols and architects we have to 00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:39.359 build up our own strength and to find allies, 00:31:39.539 --> 00:31:44.259 as you say. I couldn't agree more. Being a prophet 00:31:44.259 --> 00:31:46.980 today is not about being someone with a long 00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:51.160 beard and a stern face. It's finding others who 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:55.400 are engaged in saying no, in resisting, and not 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.819 putting limits on it. That is to say, imagination. 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:01.380 I mean, just last night, I think it was Bruce 00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:05.680 Springsteen was doing a concert in England, and 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:08.680 he talked about what's going on here. And of 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.119 course, music and musicians are always part of 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.740 the prophetic movement. And so calling on imagination. 00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:19.720 And that's where I got hooked, if you will, or 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.519 really struck by these paintings from the 16th 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.960 and 12th century, because they too were dealing 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:28.440 with evil in their time. And the two of them, 00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:31.660 Hildegard and Lucas Signorelli, they put it into 00:32:31.660 --> 00:32:36.549 painting because that moves people. Of course, 00:32:36.589 --> 00:32:39.029 today we've got film, we've got video, and so 00:32:39.029 --> 00:32:43.369 many ways of art by which to move people. And 00:32:43.369 --> 00:32:47.269 being able to put it into our rituals. The ritual 00:32:47.269 --> 00:32:50.309 today has become so book -oriented. It's about 00:32:50.309 --> 00:32:54.349 finding your place on a page to get a prayer 00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:56.789 that's right at you, or you read a prayer. No, 00:32:57.009 --> 00:32:59.309 we have to find rituals that really engage the 00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:02.549 body, that engage all seven chakras, so imagination 00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:07.579 is uplifted and juiced up. so that we can leave 00:33:07.579 --> 00:33:11.200 our place as a ritual to engage and have the 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:18.700 energy, the spirit to be the prophets we're called 00:33:18.700 --> 00:33:20.920 to be and to be the mystics and lovers we're 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:24.220 called to be. Because prophecy isn't enough. 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.359 You can be a very dire person. And our person, 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:32.279 if you only ran a biopsy 24 hours ago a day, 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:34.819 you've got to fill up on that biophilia. You've 00:33:34.819 --> 00:33:38.019 got to fill up on the joy and the celebration, 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:45.460 as well as on the resistance in saying no. Prophets 00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:47.539 I've known have always had good senses. Yes, 00:33:47.539 --> 00:33:51.500 right, right. Dan certainly did. Joan Bunyan 00:33:51.500 --> 00:33:53.880 says Martin Luther King was the funniest person 00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.339 she ever met. Oh, wow. I'm glad to hear that. 00:33:57.480 --> 00:33:59.819 Yeah. That's wonderful. I never heard that one. 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:04.559 Yeah, yeah. It's triple meaning to me. Yeah, 00:34:04.660 --> 00:34:09.019 and it's heartening. Exactly. Tutu and Thich 00:34:09.019 --> 00:34:11.420 Nhat Hanh, who I knew, were very funny and fun 00:34:11.420 --> 00:34:13.820 people. I think that's a good note to end on. 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:16.280 I'd love to go on more, but how about you coming 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.480 on again some other day and we carry on the conversation? 00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:21.019 Well, that would be fun. I mean, I enjoyed our 00:34:21.019 --> 00:34:23.679 conversation, of course, and I honor your work. 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:25.820 Thanks, Matthew. Is there anything else you'd 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:29.280 like to share with us before we end? Or any final 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.539 thought to our listeners in these times? Yeah, 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:40.539 I think our generation has been blessed with 00:34:40.539 --> 00:34:46.059 a lot of healthy theological directions. There's 00:34:46.059 --> 00:34:49.980 been liberation theology. There's been the women's 00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:54.380 movement. There's been the Jesus Seminar. historical 00:34:54.380 --> 00:34:57.039 jesus quest has been the aramaic jesus coming 00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.400 forward there's been creation spirituality and 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:03.860 and there's been the the non -violent movements 00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:08.940 and and so many gifts but i think it's now time 00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.800 to kind of gather them all and look what's the 00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:14.420 future and even bring you've been talking about 00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:17.920 that the future of a prophetic people i'm not 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.130 sure the word church is a good word anymore I 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:25.570 think, but it's spirituality that gathers. That's 00:35:25.570 --> 00:35:28.610 what church means, a gathering. And it means 00:35:28.610 --> 00:35:32.070 people, as Vatican II underscored. And so how 00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:35.090 can we alert the people, enliven the people, 00:35:35.329 --> 00:35:40.329 and juice the people? How can that happen? And 00:35:40.329 --> 00:35:46.409 evolve generations. And let's stir up ritual, 00:35:46.710 --> 00:35:51.869 because that's... historically, where people 00:35:51.869 --> 00:35:54.269 have gathered, and especially oppressed people, 00:35:54.429 --> 00:35:59.210 the slaves and the Jewish people. They found 00:35:59.210 --> 00:36:02.090 so much, and of course, indigenous people. They 00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:06.110 find so much energy in their rituals and ceremonies. 00:36:06.429 --> 00:36:09.170 And we have to find energy there, too, if we're 00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:14.909 going to carry on this struggle and this understanding 00:36:14.909 --> 00:36:19.639 into... Christianity 2 .0 after 2 ,000 years, 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:23.860 it needs, I think, a reboot. Oh, that's great, 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:26.519 Matthew. Beautiful note to end on. So thank you 00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.340 so much, Matthew Fox, for speaking with me today. 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.920 And I hear you calling us to regather all the 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.699 spiritualities and all our energies and to be 00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:40.320 the prophetic people who interfere, who go forth 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.289 and interfere. That's great. Thank you, friends, 00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:45.730 for listening to this Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:36:45.969 --> 00:36:49.170 You can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:53.730 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:36:54.110 --> 00:36:56.849 Please consider offering a donation to support 00:36:56.849 --> 00:36:59.630 this free work. And if you can, please leave 00:36:59.630 --> 00:37:03.519 some positive feedback or review. NCR or Apple 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.559 or Spotify or whatever platform you use. 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