Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend, Reverend Matthew Fox. This podcast
is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing nonviolence and working for a more
just, more peaceful, more nonviolent world. So
I always like to begin with a little prayer.
So I invite everyone listening to wherever you
are just to stop and take a deep breath and just
to relax and recenter yourself and notice how
you're feeling as we begin. And I invite you
again into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you infinitely and personally. And let's
welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just
take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need
to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully
and to do the will of the God of peace. God of
peace, thank you for all the many blessings of
life and love and peace that you give us. Be
with us now as we reflect together on your call
to follow the nonviolent Jesus. Bless us, inspire
us, disarm us. Strengthen us and send us out
to do your will, live out your gospel, and do
our part to help end poverty, war, racism and
greed, injustice, nuclear weapons, environmental
destruction, that we might be your beatitude
people, your holy peacemakers who welcome your
reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace
on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's a great
pleasure to welcome my friend Matthew Fox, a
world -renowned theologian, Episcopal priest,
and an activist for justice and creation. Matthew's
written 37 books that have been translated into
other languages over 70 times. Among them, all
these great bestsellers are like Original Blessing,
The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, A Spirituality
Named Compassion, The Reinvention of Work, The
Hidden Spirituality of Men. and Christian Mystics
and the Pope's War. He has contributed much to
the rediscovery of Hildegard of Bingen, Meister
Eckhart, and Thomas Aquinas. He holds a doctorate
in history and the theology of spirituality from
the Institut Catholique de Paris. He's the founder
of the University of Creation Spirituality in
California and conducts workshops every year.
His latest book is Naming the Unnameable, 89
Wonderful and Useful Names for God. He's currently
a visiting scholar at the Academy of the Love
of Learning in Santa Fe and resides in Vallejo,
California. Welcome, Matthew Fox, to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. Thanks for giving me a little
time. Thank you, John. It's great to be with
you. Well, let's jump right into the crisis we're
all facing here at home with the Trump administration,
dismantling the government and democracy, attacking
the Constitution, and moving us into authoritarianism
and fascism and really white supremacy. And many,
many church people, Christians here in the United
States, going right along with this MAGA movement
and moving deeper into, what, Christian nationalism.
as I say, white supremacy, and you've written
recently a lot about Trump and MAGA. So tell
us what you think about this situation, this
crisis, from your perspective, and what is the
Christian response? I know that's a big question,
but people want to hear what you have to say,
Matthew. Well, it's a reality. We're in the middle
of a coup. And American democracy, as imperfect
as it is, is being hijacked in the name of authoritarianism
and billionaires and the rule of the few, a government
by the few, for the few, and of the few. And
I wrote about this. Obviously, you saw it coming.
I saw it coming. But last June, I was teaching
in Orvieto, California. Italy, Orvieto, Italy.
I was teaching a week class on Thomas Aquinas
because it was the 800th anniversary of his birth.
And he taught in Orvieto. And my Italian friend,
he took me to the cathedral there, which is a
very beautiful cathedral. Some people call it
the most beautiful cathedral in Europe. And he
took me to this one chapel within it, a big chapel.
He didn't say anything. He put me in front of
this fresco. giant fresco and i just stared at
it and i said out loud first word i said was
it feels like donald trump and then i looked
at the title the title was the antichrist preaching
and deeds of the antichrist so i went home and
wrote a book called trump and the mega movement
as antichrist i had to rush it and get it all
passed before the election uh but it contains
a lot of um of language, I think, and understanding
of what's really going on, because Antichrist
is an archetype for evil. And what's going on
is evil. It's not just different politics. And
the painting... It was done by Lucas Signorelli
in 1501, the very beginning of the 16th century.
It contains, I think, 176 characters in it, including
there are these ninja -like young people running
around in the black, all dressed in black. And
to me, they remind me of Elon Musk's fellows
who are invading Social Security or stealing
our addresses and Social Security number. over
the years they've been called um a ku klux klan
and black and so forth so there's just a lot
in that painting and then i look again on hildegard
of demons painting of the antichrist in the cross
century and her painting is extremely stark and
stunning and it draws on apocalyptic imagery
from the book of revelation and um and it's uh
it shows patriarchy as being at the center of
things of the darkness the unraveling she she
demonstrates the unraveling of order that's going
on and she has animals that represent greed and
that represent war likeness and that represent
our envy um they're undoing the ropes of society
and uh and she comments on talks about the role
of injustice and all this so these are two just
two powerful statements from our our history
our christian history about evil and what i like
about both of them is they don't hold back um
that they're they're stark they're in your face
just like the book of apocalypse is and and the
book of daniel is and um there's so much cover
-up there's so much denial there's so much um
yes but in the media and in religious circles
i mean i found uh after the book came out The
so -called religious journals were afraid to
touch my book. They don't want to talk about
evil. You see, the church has put so much energy
in talking about sin that they haven't even developed
a language for talking about evil. And there's
a difference between sin and evil. And I really
learned it from my Lakota friend, Buck Ghosthorse.
He said to me, in our tradition, fear is a door
in the heart. lets evil spirits in. So all real
prayer is strengthening your heart so that evil
spirits stay outside that door. And in one of
my books, a major book on evil, I compare the
seven capitalists of the West to the seven chakras
of the East. So each of our chakras is a door,
like that fourth chakra that Malkosa was talking
about, the heart chakra. And we have to realize,
you know, the door, we have to be perceptive
about when to open the door and for whom to open
the door. But we also have to be strong, as Buck
says, to resist letting fear and evil spirits.
That's the point, that evil is something spiritual.
The opposite of evil is not good. The opposite
of good is bad. The opposite of evil is the sacred.
And evil operates at the level of the sacred.
It operates in a world of spirit. So I think
that evil spirits are involved in the takeover
of the Supreme Court by Opus Dei and Leonardo
Leo and these far -right fascist Roman Catholics.
And I think evil is involved, obviously, in this
whole Omega movement. And again, Opus Dei is
very evident in that movement. and other far
-right movements, both evangelical and Catholic.
So these forces are very big, and evil is smart,
it's intelligent, it goes where the power is,
and it plans way ahead. This movement that is
culminating in Trump, he didn't begin it. It
began at least 40 years ago, and has gathered
kind of like a storm or something. Like you said,
it's gathered racism. It's gathered revenge and
resentment. And all this is gathered in the storm
and the dust of it all. But they are prepared,
as we know. And, of course, I wrote a chapter
on Project 2025 in my book. I point out 18 points
there within it that are utterly anti -Christ.
So the chapter on Christ and what he stood for,
like your wonderful book on the Beatitudes. And
then the next chapter is Antichrist. Antichrist
is the opposite of Christ. So, you know, that's
not hard to get. So our ancestors have language
to talk about evil. But our media is, even our
so -called religious media, is afraid to talk
about evil. They want to talk about sin. They
don't want to talk about evil. Right. Well, gosh,
thank you, Matthew. So much to reflect on there.
Nobody talks about evil, but I'm thinking so
much as you're speaking of my friends, the Jesuit
martyrs from El Salvador, remember, who were
killed in 1989. They talked about evil when I
was with them, and they were naming the death
squads as evil. And we don't do that here. And
I remember, just to reflect with you a little
bit about all this before I move on. Growing
up, my teachers, you know, was Daniel Berrigan.
The first time I met him 45 years ago, he said,
what we're up against is not just a person, but
he was paraphrasing St. Paul and the principalities.
And he said, it's death. Anything that brings
death, the methodology of death is what, because
Christ came that we might have life on the fullness
of life. And when I see what's going on now,
just the slashing of – it's hard to take in the
billions and billions of aid that went to Africa
and Latin America. It's gone. And then yesterday
as we're recording this, just the – he's over
there just flaunting over the incredible greed
of the trillionaires in Saudi Arabia. He's grueling
for his own airplane. Yeah, it's no – but it's
so far beyond – Him or narcissism, it's just,
as you're saying, it's the spread of real evil,
and we're all getting co -opted by it. And so,
whereas Christ was calling us to spread goodness,
Dr. King even talked about organized goodness
and organized love, and the fullness of life
for every human being. And I couldn't agree more
about... St. Paul, the battle is against powers
and principalities. Those are names for angels,
for spirits, bad spirits. That was what Bob Goldstein
was saying. The battle is not just against the
human, but there are these forces. And I say
that you don't have to call, you don't have to
use the name Satan or Beelzebub or Lucifer, but
the words racism and sexism and... unbridled
capitalism, which is unbridled greed. All these
are idols. All these are gods and goddesses and
angels. They're spirits, evil spirits. And you
know they're spirit because they come back every
generation. Humans die off. And we had a civil
rights law and movement there 60 years ago, but
it's gradually been undone. by the occurrence
of being caught and so forth. So you realize,
yeah, we are swimming in a world that's bigger
than just the human when you're talking about
evil. And that is part of the Jesus story, that
he took on these forces and promised that he
would, you know, continue to do so, that we have
support from many places, our ancestors, the
community of saints, but also from the world
of spirit, the Holy Spirit. And these prophetic
people, like you mentioned, the Jesuit martyrs,
that made me, in Central America, it made me
think of my former student who was martyred in
the Amazon, Sister Dorothy Spang, on behalf of
defending the peasants there and the local farmers
and, of course, the rainforest. Beautiful people.
Bishop Casadaglia, the year of silence, they
went and visited him. A real saint. Yeah, I knew
him too. Great man. And he was silenced by the
Vatican. And so in our lifetime, in my lifetime,
I think there have been more martyrs in South
America and Central America than there were in
the first century of the Christian church in
Rome. And we don't look at it that way, but I
think it's actually counted them. Because, you
know, tens of thousands of people have been murdered
in the base communities and liberation theology
movements of South America. And they have moved
things from a dominant dictatorial political
scene to a quest for a democratic scene in most
places. So, you know, there's been some progress
and some redemption that's been going on, but
also so much. opposition, including in the churches.
So Matthew, you've spent your life, it seems
to me, among other ways to frame it, writing
about and teaching about spirituality. And another
way to put what we're talking about are all the
false spiritualities of violence and injustice
and war and racism, the false theologies and
the idols, the false gods. So what we need is
the true spirituality, I suppose. I don't know
how else to put it. But I would like you, if
you could just say a little bit about spirituality
in general that would be authentic of the gospel.
For me, that would mean how can people live a
spirituality of peace and love, universal love.
But that's why I keep going back to Dr. King's
words on violence, which means you can't have
anything to do with violence. or killing, or
death. So maybe even a spirituality of nonviolence.
Yeah, well, I also like your quote from your
mentor, Dan Berrigan, about death. Death is a
synonym for evil. And, you know, one of the best
books ever read on evil was by Eric Fromm. And,
of course, he comes out of the Holocaust. being
Jewish, and he says that necrophilia grows when
biophilia is stunted. Necrophilia grows when
biophilia is stunted. So necrophilia is this
love of death, just what Bergen knew for you
when you were a young man. But the opposite,
or the medicine, is biophilia, the love of life.
And as you cited... The passage from John, you
know, come ye to the middle of life and have
an abundance. Well, that's biophilia. So we need
a spirituality of biophilia. Yes. What the mystics
call the via positiva, falling in love with life.
The last chapter in my Trump and mega -movement
as Antichrist book, the title of it is called
Be Like a Camel. Because I think we're living
through a dark night, a dark night of our species.
uh because of global warming that we've brought
about we don't know if our but we do know we're
facing our extinction and 100 million other species
are facing their extinction and so there's a
diet night of our species and there's the dark
night of society uh and the dark night of our
souls it all goes together and um How do we get
through this dark night, which is a desert, like
a camel? A camel goes to the watering hole before
a crust in the desert and fills up this big hump
of his because he knows he's going to get dry.
So that's what we have to do. That's what real
spirituality is. It's practical. It's keeping
your energy intact and your values grounded.
And it is filling up on biophilia because all
the forces of necrophilia within us and within
society and our structures, you know, they're
going to be raining down on us. That's what people
are feeling today. And so there are ways to defend
yourself. And one is to love life in an ever
greater tasting of it. As we get on this journey,
and of course we're in the journey together,
this is not a single camel, it's a caravan of
camels. Those of us who are trying to cross this
desert and speak out and resist, and resist nonviolence,
sometimes with me, going to jail and so forth,
and speak out, and all these efforts to say no.
which is the prophetic word. We have to say no,
but we also have to say yes and never take it
away. And he asks us that mystical acceptance
of the beauty of life, of the goodness that you
talked about earlier. And that's my term, original
blessing, that Genesis 1 is a cosmology of how
good the world is and how very good, even when
humans come on board, the whole circle of creation
is very good. And so that's what we have to drink
in and fill up on. That's spiritual practice
for today. And because we're up against these
necrophiliac forces of greed and violence and
envy and all these other forces that spread fear
and spread darkness. And it's one reason I'm
writing about John the Cross now, because he...
He himself was an absolute activist. That's what
got him in trouble. People separate him when
they think he's talking this stuff about contemplation,
but his real transformation was in prison when
he was being tortured by his own Carmelite brothers
on a daily basis. He almost died, and then he
wrote poetry there in his head because he didn't
have the paper. And the poetry was all about
love. he was reproducing the song of songs it
was about falling in love with creation and seeking
his beloved in creation and uh that's what we
have to realize that there's 13 .8 billion years
that have brought us forward brought this amazing
earth here it's in jeopardy right now because
of our species and it should be able to unite
all of our species all of our countries and all
of our ideologies should be able to unite around
gratitude for our existence And that's Biophilia.
That's wonderful, Matthew. When you write this
book, do you remember, do you have a copy? I
would encourage you to get a copy of The Dark
Night of Resistance by Dan Berrigan. When he
went underground in 1970 and for months the FBI
was chasing after him. he wrote a book about
the experience while underground. And he used
John of the Cross. And so he's talking about
being underground and resisting the Vietnam War
with texts from St. John of the Cross, as only
Dan could do. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Yeah, and I think it's the most creative writing
Dan ever did. Because from John of the Cross,
he says, well, in the end, to be human is to
resist. And resistance is a mystical contemplative
practice. Isn't that great? It's not what you
would have expected, not what anybody expected,
Dan Berger, right? But I want to move on and
ask you about... Another way of saying that is
to be human is to have a conscience. Yeah, but
a conscience demands action. It tells you to
say no, it tells you to resist. Yeah, say yes
and no and no. I want to ask you about Jesus,
Matthew. As you know, I've sort of put my chips
on talking about the nonviolence of Jesus. even
in light of all the issues or whatever you call
them, maybe they're not issues, every war, I
keep, as a way of responding and dealing with
audiences, I say, well, what would Jesus have
us to do? But Gandhi and Dr. King said, Jesus
was the most nonviolent person who ever lived.
And if we want to follow him, we have to be nonviolent.
So that's why I keep talking about the nonviolent
Jesus. I just wanted to ask you to reflect with
me. on your take on Jesus these days, or even
the nonviolence of Jesus. And I was thinking
about this driving over here this morning, and
I thought, well, what a thing to ask you, Matthew.
But, you know, it's a great question. What are
you thinking about Jesus these days? Yeah. Well,
first, I want to thank you for your life's work
and your writing in your recent book on the Beatitudes
of Jesus, which you gifted me with an advanced
manuscript of that. Because, you know, in fact,
Thomas Aquinas says the essence of Christianity
is found in the Beatitudes. Wow. I didn't know
he said that. Yeah, that's what you've been working
on. So Beatitudes represent Jesus' teaching,
of course. And I think you've done a very fresh
remake of the Beatitudes. I myself am teaching
a 24 -week course coming up on Shift Network,
which is about Christianity 2 .0. where I'm trying
to go back to Jesus, but also to the mystics
and prophets who interpreted them over the last
2 ,000 years, including people like Thomas Merton,
who is, of course, Bergen's mentor and so forth,
who saw what you're seeing, especially in modern
times of this horrible warfare we've invented.
that, you know, nonviolence, and of course, King
and Gandhi, that nonviolence is the only way
to get there. But the nonviolence, of course,
where does it begin? It begins with ourselves.
It's kind of, it's, you know, it's what even
Muhammad said about the jihad, that the primary
jihad is that inside our own souls. So we're
all carrying the seeds, as Thich Nhat Hanh says,
the seeds of violence. and the seeds of non -violence
and you know we have to be aware of that and
then we have to say how do we contribute uh to
nurturing the seeds of non -violence versus the
seeds of violence and um that doesn't mean to
me that does not mean we don't have moral outrage
in fact we have to pay attention to our anger
uh aquinas says nothing great happens without
anger So anger is that fire that in the valley,
the moral libraries have said, this is, well,
outrageous. I have to say no. I have to stand
up and say no. And so, you know, some people,
I think, misinterpret nonviolence. And I think
the dualistic tradition of Augustine says that
only anger is a sin. No, anger is not a sin.
Violence is a sin. Violence is anger taken to
the point where it's destroying others or oneself.
Whereas we have to, as Mr. Eckhart says, put
a bridle on your passion of anger. And what's
a bridle? And he says the bridle is a bridle
of love. And so a bridle is a stirring instrument
for a horse. So think of anger as a stallion
we all have inside of us. So we're going to lock
it up in there. barn and call that nonviolence?
No. You get the stallion out. You learn to ride
it, but you learn to stare at that bridle of
love so that you're in charge of your anger,
and the anger is not running you or your community
or your government, et cetera, et cetera. So
I think the whole language of nonviolence, we
have to apply it to ourselves. as well as to
our structures, because that's where it begins,
where people are full of resentment, where they're
full of outrage, and that you want to project
it onto others, often because they're ignorant
of themselves, that where it's coming from in
their own wounds, in their own story, in their
own suffering, in their own abuse. All that has
to be mined. All that has to be, well, melted.
uh by love and by wisdom and by awareness so
i think a big bag opens up when you use the words
violence and non -violence it's not just our
structures it's not just um bad people we can
name but it's it's seeds are in all of us as
tickman says and that's where the some of the
deep deep deep digging has to happen Oh, that's
great, Matthew. When you say, you know, we have
to say no to these things and yes to the good
things of life. Really, I think I hear you saying
that as we reflect on spirituality and authentic
spirituality in a culture with so much evil and
death happening, we're talking about being a
prophetic people. So I wanted to ask you about
that. And that's what happened in Latin America.
And our own teachers, Dr. King, Dorothy Day,
Merton, the Bericans, were, I think, really great
prophets. And there are prophets out there today.
But maybe we could say that together we are called
to be. Prophetic communities and prophetic movements.
That's what, to me, the way I'm looking at it.
What I'm looking for in the church is to be prophetic
people, communities, movements that speak out
against not just the loss of democracy, but the
threat of total war and environmental destruction.
Tell me about that. I don't even know how to
ask. What would a prophetic church look like?
How can we teach each other? Like a whole new
school of the prophets like they had in the scriptures.
Encourage people to be a prophetic people. Yeah.
Well, great question. And, you know, of course,
as far as prophet goes, Rabbi Heschel says the
primary work of the prophet is to interfere.
Is what? Rabbi Heschel, who wrote the great volume
on the prophet, also walked it and lived it.
He says the primary work of the prophet is to
interfere. To interfere. Wow. Interfere, yeah.
And that's saying no. But that's what we're called
to do, to interfere. But again, to interfere,
you have to be in love. So there's a dialectic
between the mystic is a lover in us, and the
prophet is the defender of what we cherish. of
who is willing to interfere when what we love
is endangered for example mother earth and so
many other creatures but also one another and
and like you're saying yeah i think the real
church is people and vatican ii got on board
with that it's people who are doing their best
to live out the the yes in life the mystic in
them the lover in them and the prophet the noble
and the one who interferes in another word for
prophet is warrior actually like you get in the
christmas midnight mass from the book of wisdom
you know that the the stern warrior left from
the heavens to the doomed land and that's just
a beautiful passage i love down the cross uses
it too but um it's um it names the incarnation
the entrance of the divine into the struggles,
the doomed land, the doomed history of our species.
So all these wonderful images we have and stories
we have and symbols and architects we have to
build up our own strength and to find allies,
as you say. I couldn't agree more. Being a prophet
today is not about being someone with a long
beard and a stern face. It's finding others who
are engaged in saying no, in resisting, and not
putting limits on it. That is to say, imagination.
I mean, just last night, I think it was Bruce
Springsteen was doing a concert in England, and
he talked about what's going on here. And of
course, music and musicians are always part of
the prophetic movement. And so calling on imagination.
And that's where I got hooked, if you will, or
really struck by these paintings from the 16th
and 12th century, because they too were dealing
with evil in their time. And the two of them,
Hildegard and Lucas Signorelli, they put it into
painting because that moves people. Of course,
today we've got film, we've got video, and so
many ways of art by which to move people. And
being able to put it into our rituals. The ritual
today has become so book -oriented. It's about
finding your place on a page to get a prayer
that's right at you, or you read a prayer. No,
we have to find rituals that really engage the
body, that engage all seven chakras, so imagination
is uplifted and juiced up. so that we can leave
our place as a ritual to engage and have the
energy, the spirit to be the prophets we're called
to be and to be the mystics and lovers we're
called to be. Because prophecy isn't enough.
You can be a very dire person. And our person,
if you only ran a biopsy 24 hours ago a day,
you've got to fill up on that biophilia. You've
got to fill up on the joy and the celebration,
as well as on the resistance in saying no. Prophets
I've known have always had good senses. Yes,
right, right. Dan certainly did. Joan Bunyan
says Martin Luther King was the funniest person
she ever met. Oh, wow. I'm glad to hear that.
Yeah. That's wonderful. I never heard that one.
Yeah, yeah. It's triple meaning to me. Yeah,
and it's heartening. Exactly. Tutu and Thich
Nhat Hanh, who I knew, were very funny and fun
people. I think that's a good note to end on.
I'd love to go on more, but how about you coming
on again some other day and we carry on the conversation?
Well, that would be fun. I mean, I enjoyed our
conversation, of course, and I honor your work.
Thanks, Matthew. Is there anything else you'd
like to share with us before we end? Or any final
thought to our listeners in these times? Yeah,
I think our generation has been blessed with
a lot of healthy theological directions. There's
been liberation theology. There's been the women's
movement. There's been the Jesus Seminar. historical
jesus quest has been the aramaic jesus coming
forward there's been creation spirituality and
and there's been the the non -violent movements
and and so many gifts but i think it's now time
to kind of gather them all and look what's the
future and even bring you've been talking about
that the future of a prophetic people i'm not
sure the word church is a good word anymore I
think, but it's spirituality that gathers. That's
what church means, a gathering. And it means
people, as Vatican II underscored. And so how
can we alert the people, enliven the people,
and juice the people? How can that happen? And
evolve generations. And let's stir up ritual,
because that's... historically, where people
have gathered, and especially oppressed people,
the slaves and the Jewish people. They found
so much, and of course, indigenous people. They
find so much energy in their rituals and ceremonies.
And we have to find energy there, too, if we're
going to carry on this struggle and this understanding
into... Christianity 2 .0 after 2 ,000 years,
it needs, I think, a reboot. Oh, that's great,
Matthew. Beautiful note to end on. So thank you
so much, Matthew Fox, for speaking with me today.
And I hear you calling us to regather all the
spiritualities and all our energies and to be
the prophetic people who interfere, who go forth
and interfere. That's great. Thank you, friends,
for listening to this Nonviolent Jesus podcast.
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