WEBVTT 00:00:13.130 --> 00:00:16.070 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:16.070 --> 00:00:18.850 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:18.850 --> 00:00:21.829 with my friend, Bishop John Stowe, President 00:00:21.829 --> 00:00:25.550 of Pax Christi USA. This podcast is a project 00:00:25.550 --> 00:00:30.629 of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you can find 00:00:30.629 --> 00:00:33.289 many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs 00:00:33.289 --> 00:00:37.090 on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:37.090 --> 00:00:40.070 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:40.070 --> 00:00:43.079 world. So I always like to begin with a little 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.079 prayer. So I invite all our listeners, wherever 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.899 you are, just to take a deep breath first and 00:00:48.899 --> 00:00:54.820 to relax and recenter yourselves. And I invite 00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:57.259 you to enter into the presence of the God of 00:00:57.259 --> 00:01:00.079 peace who loves you infinitely and personally. 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:03.780 And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus 00:01:03.780 --> 00:01:07.079 here with us. Just take a moment to ask for whatever 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:09.719 graces we need to follow Jesus more faithfully. 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:20.480 God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:23.200 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.939 with us now as we reflect together on your call 00:01:26.939 --> 00:01:31.700 to follow the nonviolent Jesus. Bless us, inspire 00:01:31.700 --> 00:01:35.739 us, disarm us, heal us, strengthen us, and send 00:01:35.739 --> 00:01:39.620 us out to do your will, to proclaim your way 00:01:39.620 --> 00:01:43.370 of love and peace and nonviolence. that we might 00:01:43.370 --> 00:01:47.010 do our part together to help end poverty, racism, 00:01:47.269 --> 00:01:50.629 corporate greed, gun violence, war, injustice, 00:01:51.109 --> 00:01:54.010 nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and 00:01:54.010 --> 00:01:56.510 the whole culture of violence, that we might 00:01:56.510 --> 00:02:00.480 be your holy beatitude people. your holy peacemakers. 00:02:00.540 --> 00:02:04.340 We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus' name. Well, 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.140 it's my pleasure to introduce to you all and 00:02:07.140 --> 00:02:10.039 welcome today my friend Bishop John Stowe. He's 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:13.199 the Bishop of Lexington, Kentucky, and the President 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.500 of Pax Christi USA. He's been my friend for, 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.379 I think, 35 years now since we were in theology 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.460 school together back in the Graduate Theological 00:02:22.460 --> 00:02:26.240 Union in Berkeley. He is a member of the Conventual 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:30.909 Friars Minor. and entered them as a Franciscan 00:02:30.909 --> 00:02:36.710 in 1984, was ordained a priest in 1995, and served 00:02:36.710 --> 00:02:40.770 in El Paso, Texas, and then served as the vicar 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:43.289 general there, and then the chancellor there, 00:02:43.490 --> 00:02:46.030 and then the vicar provincial of his Franciscan 00:02:46.030 --> 00:02:51.180 province. And then in 2015, Pope Francis... named 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:53.819 him the Bishop of Lexington, Kentucky, and then 00:02:53.819 --> 00:02:57.280 he became president of Pax Christi in 2018. Wow. 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.479 Well, welcome, Bishop John Stowe from Lexington, 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.000 Kentucky. Thanks for being here, John. Well, 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:04.919 thank you, Fr. John, and thanks for doing this 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:07.520 work at the Beatitudes Center and for making 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:10.199 these podcasts available. You've had some pretty 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:12.439 good guests on there, so I hope I'm not disappointing 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:16.039 you with the series of folks you have. It's great. 00:03:16.139 --> 00:03:19.060 Thank you. I'm thrilled to have you. So I was 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:22.539 thinking, you know, coming here today, I'm in 00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:25.960 the central coast of California, about your journey 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.039 and mine knowing you for so long. I remember 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.620 you as a young Franciscan seminarian. We were 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:34.879 both at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. 00:03:37.109 --> 00:03:39.810 You're the Bishop of Lexington, Kentucky, and 00:03:39.810 --> 00:03:41.909 the President of Pax Christi USA. So I thought 00:03:41.909 --> 00:03:44.509 it'd be really nice if you just shared informally 00:03:44.509 --> 00:03:48.870 a little bit of your journey over your life as 00:03:48.870 --> 00:03:52.930 a follower of the nonviolent Jesus. Sure. I mean, 00:03:52.949 --> 00:03:55.009 when you put it that way, that's quite a stretch 00:03:55.009 --> 00:03:58.389 of time, and I'm not exactly sure how every step 00:03:58.389 --> 00:04:01.349 unfolded. You know, I went to the Graduate Theological 00:04:01.349 --> 00:04:04.069 Union and specifically enrolled in the Jesuit 00:04:04.069 --> 00:04:06.610 school right after the Jesuits martyrs of El 00:04:06.610 --> 00:04:10.250 Salvador. Oh, wow. And I specifically asked permission 00:04:10.250 --> 00:04:12.669 to study with the Jesuits because of the commitment 00:04:12.669 --> 00:04:16.850 to faith and action and faith and justice going 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:20.589 together. And so it was there that I met with 00:04:20.589 --> 00:04:22.790 the Pax Christi movement there at the school 00:04:22.790 --> 00:04:27.529 and beyond in the Bay Area. It was very fruitful. 00:04:27.589 --> 00:04:29.170 It was also the time, if you remember, of the 00:04:29.170 --> 00:04:32.350 first Gulf War and so many demonstrations. And 00:04:32.350 --> 00:04:34.990 we weren't far from the Concord Naval Weapons 00:04:34.990 --> 00:04:37.470 Station and having to do demonstrations there. 00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:40.350 The Nevada test site and all of that. So it really 00:04:40.350 --> 00:04:43.810 influenced my approach to theology and has been 00:04:43.810 --> 00:04:48.889 with me ever since. I also find the Franciscan 00:04:48.889 --> 00:04:52.389 spirituality that's part and parcel of my religious 00:04:52.389 --> 00:04:56.920 spirituality. Francis the Peacemaker, who saw 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.779 the connections between all of creation but worked 00:04:59.779 --> 00:05:02.939 to reconcile enemies and people who could not 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:06.420 get along. So when I left after graduating, my 00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:08.759 first assignment in the parish was, as you mentioned 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:10.899 in that little biography, in El Paso, Texas. 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:13.980 And being sent to the border, and the parish 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:17.240 was literally on the border, at a time when there 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:19.360 was great militarization of the border going 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.660 on, and we saw more and more violent acts against 00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:26.139 people. just trying to come across the river 00:05:26.139 --> 00:05:30.680 Rio Grande for a better life and meeting violence 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.439 from the border patrol and from other entities 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:38.879 of the state. was a time to reaffirm that commitment 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.420 to nonviolence. And I lived in a community that 00:05:42.420 --> 00:05:44.779 was partially Native American, which they have 00:05:44.779 --> 00:05:47.379 a great spirituality of connection to the earth 00:05:47.379 --> 00:05:50.579 and to all other people, and Mexican American. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.160 And knowing the history of that area, it was 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:55.459 so clear that people of different cultures and 00:05:55.459 --> 00:05:58.519 backgrounds can very much get along and work 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:01.399 together and create something beautiful. But 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.379 a different narrative was being told across the 00:06:03.379 --> 00:06:05.879 country about the so -called crisis at the border. 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.000 And now, decades later, we're still talking about 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:12.019 that same kind of thing. And we're still seeing 00:06:12.019 --> 00:06:15.680 people who are trying to get away from gang violence 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.040 and state violence in their homelands being treated 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.120 as violent themselves, even when in most cases 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.439 what they're coming here to do is to work, make 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:27.480 a better life for themselves and their families. 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.639 So that's really been... essential to my ministry. 00:06:31.779 --> 00:06:34.160 I say the time in El Paso really formed me as 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.579 a pastor, formed me as a priest to be attentive 00:06:37.579 --> 00:06:41.560 to people's needs. And, you know, the desire 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:44.199 to live in a more peaceful world was so manifest. 00:06:45.339 --> 00:06:48.560 After 15 years there, partially in chancery administration, 00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:52.019 but always with a foot in parish work and most 00:06:52.019 --> 00:06:55.639 of the time as a pastor as well. I was made vicar 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:57.399 provincial, so I had responsibilities within 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:00.500 the Franciscan Order. I was also at our national 00:07:00.500 --> 00:07:03.480 shrine of Our Lady of Consolation in Cary, Ohio. 00:07:04.180 --> 00:07:07.199 And the ministry there, in a large part, the 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.899 pilgrims that come are Chaldean Catholics from 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:12.959 Iraq. And I heard so many stories of people that 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.100 had been in refugee camps, that had been displaced 00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:19.040 by war. A whole different experience from the 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.079 Iraq War from what I knew about in Berkeley. 00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:24.350 But these were people who were refugees. getting 00:07:24.350 --> 00:07:27.230 away from that. So it only deepened the commitment 00:07:27.230 --> 00:07:30.870 that we have to find ways to move beyond war 00:07:30.870 --> 00:07:34.550 and find ways to get along together. And the 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:36.670 10 years now that I've been in Lexington has 00:07:36.670 --> 00:07:39.870 been an interesting time as well. It's connected 00:07:39.870 --> 00:07:42.589 my concern for the environment, especially in 00:07:42.589 --> 00:07:45.709 Appalachia and areas that were formerly coal 00:07:45.709 --> 00:07:50.089 mine dependent for livelihood and trying to find 00:07:50.089 --> 00:07:52.819 the ways to be at peace with nature. as well 00:07:52.819 --> 00:07:55.839 as living in a pretty red state and trying to 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:59.180 speak about the gospel in ways that are compelling 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:03.060 and make sense, but don't come easily to people 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:06.100 in this part of the world. It's a great journey, 00:08:06.220 --> 00:08:09.720 Bishop John. Thank you for sharing that. I like 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.000 that you— Just a few highlights. Yeah, I know. 00:08:12.420 --> 00:08:15.560 We could just have a long talk about your story. 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:19.120 And it's still unfolding. You've had an amazing 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:22.120 journey. I like that you call St. Francis, Francis 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.220 the Peacemaker. And the first question, I mean, 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:28.180 we could talk about Jesus, of course, as the 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:32.190 Peacemaker. And this is you and I. think at the 00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:35.049 heart of the gospel is his call to become peacemakers, 00:08:35.129 --> 00:08:37.070 blessed are the peacemakers. So let me ask you 00:08:37.070 --> 00:08:39.870 first about Jesus. As you know, and even with 00:08:39.870 --> 00:08:42.309 the name of this podcast, I've long taught and 00:08:42.309 --> 00:08:45.470 maintained that Jesus was totally nonviolent, 00:08:45.549 --> 00:08:48.490 and that if we're going to follow him, we have 00:08:48.490 --> 00:08:51.250 to try to somehow become totally nonviolent ourselves 00:08:51.250 --> 00:08:55.330 and work for a more nonviolent world, like Gandhi 00:08:55.330 --> 00:09:00.379 and Dorothy Day and Dr. King and Francis. and 00:09:00.379 --> 00:09:04.279 Claire the peacemakers. And now in 2017, Pope 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:07.379 Francis in his World Day of Peace message said 00:09:07.379 --> 00:09:09.940 all of that. Jesus was totally nonviolent and 00:09:09.940 --> 00:09:12.860 Catholics need to try to become nonviolent. I 00:09:12.860 --> 00:09:15.580 wonder if you could just reflect on what that 00:09:15.580 --> 00:09:19.399 means for you and for us and the church these 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.139 days right now with what we're going through, 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:24.340 that the nonviolence of Jesus and the calling 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:29.289 to practice gospel nonviolence. Well, I think 00:09:29.289 --> 00:09:32.690 once we start to understand Jesus as nonviolent, 00:09:32.769 --> 00:09:34.889 and whether it's if we're helped by the Pope 00:09:34.889 --> 00:09:37.909 to do that, or through your own commentary on 00:09:37.909 --> 00:09:41.029 the New Testament, the Gospels, we recognize 00:09:41.029 --> 00:09:45.529 that peace and peace building and nonviolence 00:09:45.529 --> 00:09:49.330 are so essential to who Jesus is. And for Jesus, 00:09:49.370 --> 00:09:52.409 it was clearly the shalom of his Hebrew background 00:09:52.409 --> 00:09:54.590 of being right relationship, right relationship 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:56.889 with God, right relationship with others, right 00:09:56.889 --> 00:10:01.250 relationship with all of creation. And that's 00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:04.110 not so easy for us to do. There's so many things 00:10:04.110 --> 00:10:06.309 that are competing for our allegiances. There 00:10:06.309 --> 00:10:09.929 are so many material comforts that can get in 00:10:09.929 --> 00:10:12.929 the way and we don't even think about. the sources 00:10:12.929 --> 00:10:16.330 or the people who are exploited to make our life, 00:10:16.330 --> 00:10:20.129 our consumeristic life, so easily accessible 00:10:20.129 --> 00:10:24.129 to us. And we really start doing a deep examination 00:10:24.129 --> 00:10:28.169 of conscience and recognize the need constantly 00:10:28.169 --> 00:10:30.690 to evaluate our relationships with God and with 00:10:30.690 --> 00:10:34.690 others. It's an important challenge, but once 00:10:34.690 --> 00:10:37.750 you are connected to that idea of Jesus is the 00:10:37.750 --> 00:10:39.830 peacemaker, it's hard not to see it when you 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:45.539 read the Gospels. I think at this time, the real 00:10:45.539 --> 00:10:47.379 challenge, one of the reasons I'm drawn to Pax 00:10:47.379 --> 00:10:50.519 Christi USA is because it's rooted in a spirituality 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:55.360 of nonviolence. And it's so essential to root 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:57.519 out the violent tendencies within ourselves. 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.639 And, you know, I just watch the news and I see 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.639 things that are being said by people in political 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.500 office or in positions of authority. And there's 00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:12.269 an anger that. builds up inside of me. And there's 00:11:12.269 --> 00:11:15.409 got to be an appropriate outlet for that so that 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:18.850 it doesn't turn into the kind of violence. But 00:11:18.850 --> 00:11:21.330 it's also allowed me to understand better why 00:11:21.330 --> 00:11:24.730 people at some places and times feel that there's 00:11:24.730 --> 00:11:29.049 no option except to rise up and use violence. 00:11:29.289 --> 00:11:32.830 But we have to reject that as not providing the 00:11:32.830 --> 00:11:38.820 lasting solution that Jesus does. No, I just 00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:41.539 said that's kind of a broad approach, but every 00:11:41.539 --> 00:11:44.820 day the struggle for me is just to overcome that 00:11:44.820 --> 00:11:48.919 tendency to judge another person, to look down 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:53.519 on another person, or to think violently against 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:56.580 their character. And the more we allow Christ 00:11:56.580 --> 00:12:00.379 into our life, into our way of praying and thinking, 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.320 the more we have to recognize the other person 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.710 as brother or sister. That's not so easy. I like 00:12:07.710 --> 00:12:11.590 that you say that once you see the Gospels and 00:12:11.590 --> 00:12:15.169 Jesus as a peacemaker, it's hard to go back. 00:12:15.570 --> 00:12:18.950 Like you go, oh, this is what it's all about. 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:24.429 Why do you think the nonviolence and peacemaking 00:12:24.429 --> 00:12:27.389 of Jesus and his nonviolent resistance really 00:12:27.389 --> 00:12:31.629 to the empire is still so under -emphasized in 00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:35.289 the Christian tradition? through history and 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:39.549 even today around the world. Well, 2 ,000 years 00:12:39.549 --> 00:12:42.470 later, it's still quite radical. I mean, it's 00:12:42.470 --> 00:12:46.610 just not easy to think of those values as being 00:12:46.610 --> 00:12:50.230 anything other than a dream or a utopia or something 00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:53.549 that is beyond this world. But Jesus was talking 00:12:53.549 --> 00:12:56.649 about the here and now and how we try to create 00:12:56.649 --> 00:13:00.690 this peaceful kingdom here and now. The Church 00:13:00.690 --> 00:13:03.779 has domesticated Christ from... very early in 00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:06.980 our history. And so it's easy to go along with 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:10.000 Christ and my government, Christ and my political 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:13.720 party, Christ and my army, whatever it is. We 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:15.899 think that we can make these things compatible 00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:19.200 when Jesus is calling for a kind of allegiance 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:23.879 that does not allow for the exploitative oppression 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:27.320 that goes with the abuse of power in so many 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:30.379 aspects of the contemporary world or any time 00:13:30.379 --> 00:13:33.750 in the last 2 ,000 years' history. You know, 00:13:33.750 --> 00:13:36.370 during our lives as friends over the decades, 00:13:36.590 --> 00:13:39.750 we've both been, you know, talking about Jesus 00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:44.090 and peacemaking, but we're sort of used to getting 00:13:44.090 --> 00:13:47.590 so much pushback from church people and other 00:13:47.590 --> 00:13:52.870 Christians that, oh, we can still support war 00:13:52.870 --> 00:13:58.750 or God wants us to be rich or number one. But 00:13:58.750 --> 00:14:01.769 now we're in a whole new boat. And I wanted to 00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:04.429 ask you about what's happening right now under 00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:07.769 the Trump administration and his rhetoric. What 00:14:07.769 --> 00:14:13.049 I'm seeing, and I want your take on it, is why 00:14:13.049 --> 00:14:19.049 has all of this rise of authoritarianism and 00:14:19.049 --> 00:14:22.830 fascism, oligarchy, even white supremacy, which 00:14:22.830 --> 00:14:25.850 is being publicly talked about, managed to... 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.740 be embraced and co -opted by so many Christians, 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.860 including millions of Catholics across the U 00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:35.460 .S., including many bishops and many, many priests 00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:37.919 around the country. And what do you think about 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.580 that? Well, I guess in the context that we're 00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:43.659 speaking right now, perhaps the first thing is 00:14:43.659 --> 00:14:46.000 they haven't really discovered the nonviolent 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.659 Jesus, and that nonviolent Jesus has not been 00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:53.059 preached enough on a regular basis in our churches. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.860 But I have to honestly admit, I struggle with 00:14:56.860 --> 00:15:00.059 understanding how this is possible. I struggle 00:15:00.059 --> 00:15:04.220 to get mail from people in my diocese, you know, 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.080 accusing me of hating white people because I'm 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.419 trying to dismantle racism. We talk about dismantling 00:15:10.419 --> 00:15:13.580 racism as some of the active work that Christians 00:15:13.580 --> 00:15:16.100 have to be doing. And the response is, why do 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.159 you hate white people? And it buys into this 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:21.500 whole notion that, you know. We can't all be 00:15:21.500 --> 00:15:23.240 brothers and sisters, so there's always got to 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:27.200 be the scapegoat or the person that is the object 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.679 of hatred or dislike rather than just brothers 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.980 and sisters. Another letter I have to respond 00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:37.500 to today about angry that I said that people 00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:39.899 who've crossed the border without documents are 00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:44.039 not criminals and goes into this whole reality. 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:46.159 Well, you know, God said we have to protect our 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.500 own land and defend ourselves. Well, no, not 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:53.519 if you look at the Jesus that God, you know, 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:55.539 the God that revealed by Jesus and the Jesus 00:15:55.539 --> 00:15:57.360 that's revealed in the scriptures. He doesn't 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.059 say those things. But I think it really is a 00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:03.159 lack of faith that it's possible to live in a 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:08.419 nonviolent way. Well, one of the great things 00:16:08.419 --> 00:16:11.019 you've done is to step up to the plate in the 00:16:11.019 --> 00:16:14.500 official Catholic global peace movement, which 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:19.179 is what, you know. maybe almost 75, 80 years 00:16:19.179 --> 00:16:22.720 old. And you're the president of the U .S. branch, 00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:26.679 Pax Christi USA. And you and I have been part 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.740 of it a long time. It works full time with the 00:16:29.740 --> 00:16:32.360 official support of the Vatican and bishops around 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:34.559 the world to promote disarmament, justice, and 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.740 peace. So tell us about Pax Christi these days 00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:42.759 and what you'd like. listeners to know about 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.279 Pax Christi and to join Pax Christi if they're 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:49.799 not a member? Sure. I think one of the most exciting 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:53.340 things about Pax Christi USA right now is the 00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:55.659 number of young people that are getting involved, 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:58.940 especially young adults, whether that's on college 00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:02.120 campuses, high school campuses, and other places. 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.059 They've created through all of our podcasting 00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:10.279 and networking a community that really sees the 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.619 nonviolent Jesus and the peace movement as the 00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:18.200 way of being church today. We've also seen Pax 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.440 Christi USA become something much more diverse 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.519 in terms of our racial and economic backgrounds 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:28.619 coming together. I think that's very exciting 00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:32.460 for the movement. So like many other peace movements 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:34.500 and like many other movements in general in the 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:39.339 church and in society, we had a very aging membership. 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.160 And God loves the people that have put their 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.279 lives on the line for this and have been out 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.900 there demonstrating and working for peace for 00:17:46.900 --> 00:17:49.380 generations. We love them and have so much to 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:52.500 learn from them. But they themselves very frequently 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:54.359 have wondered who's going to come after them. 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.180 But I think it is an exciting time, and maybe 00:17:58.180 --> 00:18:00.940 it's one of the good things that comes out of 00:18:00.940 --> 00:18:05.299 this difficult time politically and when democracy 00:18:05.299 --> 00:18:10.079 seems to be being undermined right now and a 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.539 violent bully in the White House trying to use 00:18:13.539 --> 00:18:17.380 violence as a way to get his will done, get his 00:18:17.380 --> 00:18:22.440 preferences accomplished across the line. I think 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:24.660 that concerns enough people they're looking for 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:27.599 some way to do something and make some difference. 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:31.460 And joining a community that is committed to 00:18:31.460 --> 00:18:36.440 prayer and study and action helps us to, number 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.420 one, not let these Trump decisions become normalized 00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:43.049 and just something that we... we just deal with 00:18:43.049 --> 00:18:45.569 or see as part of everyday reality, we have to 00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:47.430 call attention to the fact that these are not 00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:50.410 normal things and they're not part of our democratic 00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:52.670 tradition, certainly not part of our Christian 00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:56.470 tradition. And when we can pray and study and 00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:58.769 act together and take that holistic approach 00:18:58.769 --> 00:19:03.849 in a community, I think it's very fruitful as 00:19:03.849 --> 00:19:05.890 we're trying to promote the gospel of peace. 00:19:06.730 --> 00:19:08.529 So I would encourage people that are interested 00:19:08.529 --> 00:19:11.410 to learn more about it. PaxChristiUSA .org is 00:19:11.410 --> 00:19:15.569 a good source of information. And you can connect 00:19:15.569 --> 00:19:17.930 right away with people in your own age group, 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:21.369 whatever that age group happens to be. We're 00:19:21.369 --> 00:19:24.190 planning a national conference the end of July 00:19:24.190 --> 00:19:27.670 this year in Detroit. Detroit, which is a home 00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:30.849 to a lot of Arab Americans. And we know that 00:19:30.849 --> 00:19:33.589 they have suffered quite a bit because of the 00:19:33.589 --> 00:19:35.809 turmoil in the Middle East and the lack of peace. 00:19:36.509 --> 00:19:38.650 in the Middle East. And so we can hear many of 00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:41.609 their stories. Detroit was also the home of Bishop 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:44.690 Thomas Gumbleton, you know, your friend and the 00:19:44.690 --> 00:19:48.089 first Bishop President of Pax Christi USA, who 00:19:48.089 --> 00:19:51.109 died last year. And we want to lift him up as 00:19:51.109 --> 00:19:53.630 a model of living within the church institution 00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:58.069 and promoting the gospel and the gospel of peacemaking. 00:19:59.329 --> 00:20:02.289 That's great. Thanks. I'm remembering, you know, 00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:05.049 when we were together 35 years ago, during those 00:20:05.049 --> 00:20:10.150 years, I started 25 Pax Christi local groups. 00:20:10.589 --> 00:20:13.329 And we were going through, as you said, the murder 00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:15.809 of the Jesuits and then the Iraq war and then 00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:20.970 so much turmoil. And we were, I always saw Pax 00:20:20.970 --> 00:20:22.990 Christi as a little base community movement, 00:20:23.009 --> 00:20:25.490 like Latin Americans and African church. They're 00:20:25.490 --> 00:20:28.029 so far ahead of us and that's what we need. And 00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:31.890 so your motto, the Pax Christi motto, the idea 00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:37.089 was Go and start a group with five or ten people 00:20:37.089 --> 00:20:40.369 and meet every other week. And just for an hour 00:20:40.369 --> 00:20:42.910 and like on a Thursday night, prayer, study, 00:20:43.029 --> 00:20:44.769 and action. Do a little praying, do a little 00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:48.730 study, and then plan together. And it was so 00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:50.750 life -giving. Remember, we were part of the Pax 00:20:50.750 --> 00:20:54.380 Christi Berkeley. And so is that what you're 00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:57.779 saying, Bishop John, that, you know, get together, 00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:00.500 don't be alone, form a little Pax Christi group, 00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:03.319 and here's this national network of support you 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.410 can have. Absolutely. And for those who don't 00:21:06.410 --> 00:21:08.930 have the means of doing it in real life, although 00:21:08.930 --> 00:21:11.549 that's always preferable, and with three -dimensional 00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:15.250 persons, it has been good to see young people 00:21:15.250 --> 00:21:17.509 connecting across the country and sharing the 00:21:17.509 --> 00:21:20.609 issues that affect them where they are and finding 00:21:20.609 --> 00:21:23.549 support in one another. So, absolutely. You know, 00:21:23.569 --> 00:21:26.509 so many people in this time when we're supposedly 00:21:26.509 --> 00:21:29.690 so connected digitally and otherwise, we really 00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:33.599 find a lot of loneliness. That's not going to 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.460 help a peace movement, but when people feel less 00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:40.259 helpless because they're with other people who 00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:43.319 share some of the same thoughts and ideas and 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:47.660 can propose alternatives, that's where a movement 00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:52.440 becomes strong. Yeah. So I visited you last year 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:57.059 in Lexington at the university there, and I remember 00:21:57.059 --> 00:22:01.170 you were talking. about your work in Appalachia 00:22:01.170 --> 00:22:03.789 and the environment. But in particular, you were 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:06.549 telling me about your push for gun control and 00:22:06.549 --> 00:22:09.349 better gun legislation to help end gun violence. 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:13.269 And you were focusing on eastern Kentucky, which 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:16.849 is very serious. So tell me about that and your 00:22:16.849 --> 00:22:20.130 hopes there, your work. Sure. Well, I wish I 00:22:20.130 --> 00:22:22.970 could say we have had more success here. And 00:22:22.970 --> 00:22:25.170 it seems like it's only when there's these major 00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:28.819 tragedies and... mass killings, which now we 00:22:28.819 --> 00:22:31.000 barely even pay attention to. They're so frequent 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.220 that we can even begin a discussion about gun 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:38.660 control. So we have to redouble our efforts now, 00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:41.720 I'm afraid. But it's another consequence of the 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:44.759 failure to preach the nonviolent Jesus that I 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:46.779 get a lot of pushback right from our own church 00:22:46.779 --> 00:22:49.660 members about what do you mean we can't bring 00:22:49.660 --> 00:22:52.079 guns to church? What do you mean we can't be 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.700 armed? We have to. But there's this whole. notion 00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:59.759 of fear of the other. And you can't go into certain 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.200 parts of town without protection. You can't deal 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.099 with other people without protection, without 00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:07.940 realizing that this violence and this addiction 00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:12.619 to guns has really affected us. But I can't claim 00:23:12.619 --> 00:23:15.559 any legislative gains there. I can't claim any 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.839 conversion of hearts that I know of yet in that 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:23.259 regard. But we can't let down our guard. We were 00:23:23.259 --> 00:23:25.240 trying to get something in front of the state. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.220 And then the bishops of Kentucky decided we wanted 00:23:28.220 --> 00:23:30.480 to have the other bishops in our province, which 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.359 means the Three Dices of Tennessee involved. 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:36.259 And it just got more complicated there from then 00:23:36.259 --> 00:23:38.559 on. But it doesn't mean I'll give up on that. 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.400 Right. I don't know if you remember that night, 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.119 Bishop, you welcomed me and I spoke at the university. 00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:48.420 But in the front rows, there were, I don't know, 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.900 a couple of dozen college students. And they 00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:54.279 all were pretty unhappy with you and me talking 00:23:54.279 --> 00:23:57.579 for an hour about the nonviolence of Jesus. And 00:23:57.579 --> 00:24:00.440 afterwards, I deliberately was engaging them. 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:05.569 And one of them, he was 19. And I said, I know 00:24:05.569 --> 00:24:07.230 you didn't like what I had to say. Well, why 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:09.589 not? But tell me what, go ahead, just come right 00:24:09.589 --> 00:24:11.710 out and tell me. I don't know if I told you this. 00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:16.009 And the poor kid said, well, I live up in maybe 00:24:16.009 --> 00:24:19.029 Chicago and I came to Lexington. I've never been 00:24:19.029 --> 00:24:21.650 here and arrived my first day when I was 18. 00:24:21.970 --> 00:24:25.970 He's 19 now. Totally terrified. So that night 00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:29.329 I went out and bought a gun and I sleep with 00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:33.309 it under my pillow every night because I'm totally. 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.759 terrified about my life. What do you think of 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.200 that, Father John? Gosh, Bishop, I mean, I think 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:44.740 that's going on a lot around the country and 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:49.500 the world. What would you say to that poor young 00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:52.920 guy? Well, I do remember. I'm sorry I didn't 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.099 get to meet him myself. I do remember you talking 00:24:55.099 --> 00:24:59.240 about it. And it's very disturbing and why somebody 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:04.880 would feel so threatened. It really shows that. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.380 And it's disconnected with their faith. You know, 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.259 the people that showed up were our regular practicing 00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:12.900 Catholics. These were devout kids, actually. 00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:16.400 They're devout. But we haven't made that connection. 00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:18.920 You know, just a couple of weeks ago, I was back 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.880 in El Paso for a demonstration on the border, 00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:25.940 the solidarity with migrants and Cardinal Baggio 00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:29.480 from Rome, from the Dicastery of Integral Human 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:32.289 Development. was present he's the one that heads 00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:35.690 the migration section there and somebody asked 00:25:35.690 --> 00:25:37.970 him about you know why do we not get more buy 00:25:37.970 --> 00:25:40.630 -in from our church about the human rights of 00:25:40.630 --> 00:25:43.849 immigrants and why are we not resisting more 00:25:43.849 --> 00:25:46.829 what's happening in our country and he asked 00:25:46.829 --> 00:25:49.450 a simple question he said how many of the catechism 00:25:49.450 --> 00:25:51.930 textbooks that you use not the official catechism 00:25:51.930 --> 00:25:54.230 of the church but the textbooks that you use 00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:56.549 in classrooms how much how much do they talk 00:25:56.549 --> 00:25:58.630 about human rights how much do they talk about 00:25:59.490 --> 00:26:01.730 How much do they talk about the threat of war? 00:26:02.789 --> 00:26:06.109 And I'm afraid if you look at most of them, it 00:26:06.109 --> 00:26:08.890 doesn't get much of a mention. You know, we know 00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:11.930 about the sacramental life. We get the devotion 00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:14.230 and the commandments and all those things that 00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:17.750 are essential to our faith. But how do we put 00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:21.170 those things to use in a very violent world? 00:26:21.309 --> 00:26:24.130 How do we build up a spirituality of nonviolence? 00:26:24.450 --> 00:26:27.089 It's not in there. So I was thinking of that 00:26:27.089 --> 00:26:30.349 simple answer from Cardinal Baju, and I think 00:26:30.349 --> 00:26:32.430 it applies to that young man at the University 00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:35.529 of Kentucky and to so many who've never been 00:26:35.529 --> 00:26:37.890 exposed to this way of thinking that what we 00:26:37.890 --> 00:26:42.089 believe about Jesus has consequences for how 00:26:42.089 --> 00:26:44.210 we live our lives and how we relate with other 00:26:44.210 --> 00:26:47.430 people and for our politics, which nobody wants 00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:52.859 to hear about in church. Yeah, that's so great. 00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:55.920 I'm thinking of a story, an experience I had 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.660 when I first arrived 25 years ago as a pastor 00:26:59.660 --> 00:27:03.759 in these very poor parishes in New Mexico. And 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:06.299 my friend, the older nun, said, you're teaching 00:27:06.299 --> 00:27:09.500 confirmation. And I said, no, I'm not. I can't. 00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:12.279 And she said, you have to. So I had all these 00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.819 kids in the middle of the desert, and they're 00:27:15.819 --> 00:27:19.359 all high school. like 25 teenagers. I remember 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:23.339 one of them, all of them. And the first night 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:28.599 there, I asked them to show me their textbook, 00:27:29.099 --> 00:27:32.680 their Sunday confirmation book. And between us, 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:36.789 Bishop John, I thought it was so awful. Then 00:27:36.789 --> 00:27:39.529 I took a trash can and I went around the room 00:27:39.529 --> 00:27:42.589 and I collected them and threw them all out very 00:27:42.589 --> 00:27:45.369 dramatically because I said, I think this is 00:27:45.369 --> 00:27:49.029 so boring. But I had come prepared and I had 00:27:49.029 --> 00:27:54.690 bought a box of a really cool Bible with the 00:27:54.690 --> 00:27:57.670 best translation. And I dramatically gave each 00:27:57.670 --> 00:28:02.730 one, each kid their own first Bible. John, you 00:28:02.730 --> 00:28:05.869 wouldn't, I'll never forget. I saw them sit up. 00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:11.130 in their chairs. It was like they suddenly were 00:28:11.130 --> 00:28:15.549 being treated with dignity and equal. I said, 00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:17.910 we're going to read the gospel of Mark chapter 00:28:17.910 --> 00:28:20.910 one, verse one, and I want you to tell me everything 00:28:20.910 --> 00:28:23.849 you don't like about it. Again, they sat up. 00:28:24.490 --> 00:28:26.569 And then they were off and running, and all those 00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:29.750 kids became really engaged. What do you think 00:28:29.750 --> 00:28:32.009 about that? I got that from William Stringfellow. 00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:35.049 Like, we just need to help each other read the 00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:40.529 Gospels again. We're so far from the Gospels. 00:28:40.529 --> 00:28:43.609 That's kind of what I hear you saying. That's 00:28:43.609 --> 00:28:45.869 it. I mean, we need to know who Jesus was, what 00:28:45.869 --> 00:28:49.210 his context was, and how he responded to the 00:28:49.210 --> 00:28:51.529 situation he was in. And it's not all that different 00:28:51.529 --> 00:28:54.839 from what we experience day to day. The people 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:57.619 that Jesus called blessed in the Beatitudes were 00:28:57.619 --> 00:28:59.880 not the people that the empire called blessed. 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.680 They were kind of the outcasts. Some people that 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:08.039 don't think that they conform to the polite church 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.779 will find a lot of comfort and excitement about 00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:15.079 the way that Jesus took on the establishments 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.640 of his day. Who would think that introducing 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:21.059 the gospel to young people was such a radical 00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:27.819 idea? But apparently it is. We are both very 00:29:27.819 --> 00:29:32.380 devoted to Pope Francis, who's so frail and ill 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:36.220 now, but I think he's the greatest moral and 00:29:36.220 --> 00:29:39.140 spiritual leader in the world at this time. He's 00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:42.680 the brightest light there is. I would like to 00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:46.019 ask you any thoughts you have about him and the 00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:49.180 amazing things he's done and his main message. 00:29:50.410 --> 00:29:52.890 your own experience of being with him personally, 00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:59.690 and what you recommend for our listeners to take 00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:05.529 from Pope Francis's calls. Sure. You know, I've 00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:07.829 really been moved by Francis from the very beginning 00:30:07.829 --> 00:30:11.109 of his pontificate. I was excited when he took 00:30:11.109 --> 00:30:13.589 the name Francis and when he said why he took 00:30:13.589 --> 00:30:16.829 the name Francis, because the cardinal from Brazil 00:30:16.829 --> 00:30:20.960 told him to never forget the poor. I think he 00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:23.359 brings the whole Latin American experience and 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.420 all its richness with him to the center of the 00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:30.480 church and shares that richness, which is it's 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.680 so community based. And he brings that Ignatian 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:37.279 spirituality from his Jesuit background, the 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.859 gifts of discernment. And I think he puts that 00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:44.440 together in such a way that it brings the Catholic 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.500 social teaching to the center of what the church 00:30:47.500 --> 00:30:52.329 is about and not. a fringe thing or a specialization 00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:56.750 within the church or within theology. I think 00:30:56.750 --> 00:30:59.549 he's brought the practice, whether he calls it 00:30:59.549 --> 00:31:01.789 an approach to mercy, whether he talks about 00:31:01.789 --> 00:31:04.529 it in terms of fratelli tutti, that we're all 00:31:04.529 --> 00:31:07.890 brothers and sisters, when it's laudato si, right 00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:11.369 relationship with all of creation, his World 00:31:11.369 --> 00:31:13.670 Day of Peace message, as you mentioned from 2017, 00:31:13.910 --> 00:31:17.410 about the nonviolent Christ. I think all these 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:20.990 things fit together. really in a harmonic way 00:31:20.990 --> 00:31:24.950 with Pope Francis. And he smiles as he does it. 00:31:25.009 --> 00:31:27.670 And he can laugh with people and joke with people, 00:31:27.769 --> 00:31:30.190 even when he's coming out of this long illness. 00:31:30.430 --> 00:31:33.250 You know, pictures of him on Sunday, just greeting 00:31:33.250 --> 00:31:35.769 the crowds and smiling and laughing with people. 00:31:35.970 --> 00:31:39.809 I think it touches them in such a deep way. But 00:31:39.809 --> 00:31:42.509 he has not hidden from us the pain that he feels 00:31:42.509 --> 00:31:45.539 with so much war going on in the world. You know, 00:31:45.579 --> 00:31:48.140 when he made it over to the Russian embassy, 00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:50.740 breaking all protocol and everything else, when 00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:54.900 the war against Ukraine started and he wanted 00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:58.000 to plead for peace in person, when he got down 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:00.220 on his hands and knees and kissed the feet of 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:04.940 the competing or warring leaders in Sudan and 00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:08.119 South Sudan, kissed their feet, begging them 00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:11.480 to be peacemakers. when he was wheeled in his 00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:16.140 wheelchair into the Congo, into a war zone, and 00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:18.779 listened to the victims of war and literally 00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:22.559 touched their wounds. I mean, he is so prophetic 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:28.579 in gesture and in thought. And I'm sure he's 00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:30.539 just what the church and the world needs at this 00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:33.160 time. And I hope we can see somebody following 00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:37.920 him in that same vein. or that his message would 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.460 be more widely received. Yes, he's amazing and 00:32:42.460 --> 00:32:45.579 not really followed here in the United States. 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.940 But you know that Marie Dennis and I and our 00:32:48.940 --> 00:32:52.740 friends have for some 10 years now been lobbying 00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:55.880 him and working at the Vatican, asking him to 00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.980 write a full -on church encyclical about the 00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:02.220 nonviolence of Jesus, like he did in Laudato 00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:04.940 Si' about climate change and the Catholic response 00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:07.990 and so forth. Just briefly, could you tell us 00:33:07.990 --> 00:33:10.650 the story about how when one of your conversations 00:33:10.650 --> 00:33:13.789 with him, you asked him about that? Sure. It 00:33:13.789 --> 00:33:16.269 was a very brief interchange when I was in front 00:33:16.269 --> 00:33:18.029 of him and there was a line of people behind 00:33:18.029 --> 00:33:21.049 me. But his first response was that Fratelli 00:33:21.049 --> 00:33:22.609 Tutti is. What did you ask him? What did you 00:33:22.609 --> 00:33:25.069 ask him? I asked him about that encyclical on 00:33:25.069 --> 00:33:27.690 nonviolence. And I said, I know you've got people 00:33:27.690 --> 00:33:30.490 encouraging that. Is there, can we expect that 00:33:30.490 --> 00:33:33.730 anytime soon? And he said, Fratelli Tutti is 00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:37.059 the encyclical on nonviolence. Because for him, 00:33:37.059 --> 00:33:39.339 it's all about relationship. It's all about this 00:33:39.339 --> 00:33:42.799 interconnection. Yeah, I'm trying to get him 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:46.420 to use the word more, to write an encyclical 00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:51.059 actually on Jesus and nonviolence. So we keep 00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:55.180 going. Let me ask you, and we'll begin to wrap 00:33:55.180 --> 00:33:57.680 it up, but you've touched on this before about 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.000 the importance of a spirituality of nonviolence 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.759 in these times with so much hatred and division. 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:09.099 confusion and chaos, and many people feeling 00:34:09.099 --> 00:34:14.000 overwhelmed. On the one hand, numb and depressed 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.079 and despairing and giving up. On the other, really 00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:19.880 angry and maybe even, as you mentioned, feeling 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.320 violence towards perpetrators of evil, people 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:28.440 doing this. supporting discrimination and cruelty 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.880 carried out by the Trump administration. So tell 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:34.860 me more specifically, if you would, about some 00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:37.179 thoughts on a spirituality of nonviolence to 00:34:37.179 --> 00:34:42.219 help us concretely avoid, on the one hand, you 00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:46.380 know, giving up and giving into despair and fear 00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:51.860 and anger and worry. but to sustain us for the 00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:54.960 long haul, to keep getting involved, to keep 00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:58.480 speaking out and taking public action as Christians, 00:34:58.579 --> 00:35:01.780 as Catholics, for God's reign of justice and 00:35:01.780 --> 00:35:05.460 discernment and peace. So the inner work of a 00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:08.639 spirituality of peace and nonviolence. Sure. 00:35:08.739 --> 00:35:11.400 And that inner work has got to start with the 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.360 individual and our relationship with the Word 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:17.309 of God and reflect on that. Word of God made 00:35:17.309 --> 00:35:19.750 flesh in the person of Jesus and how he lived 00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:22.829 his life. And then pray for the grace, ask for 00:35:22.829 --> 00:35:26.670 the grace to be able to live that way. To absorb 00:35:26.670 --> 00:35:28.949 violence rather than contribute to violence, 00:35:29.070 --> 00:35:33.590 to be about forgiveness. And 70 times, seven 00:35:33.590 --> 00:35:38.570 times and more. And I think it also, we have 00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:42.510 to be very clear about not allowing the. The 00:35:42.510 --> 00:35:44.769 horrible stuff that we see all around us just 00:35:44.769 --> 00:35:47.829 to become background noise, but we have to confront 00:35:47.829 --> 00:35:50.349 it. I think that's another important thing that 00:35:50.349 --> 00:35:53.130 Pope Francis says in Fratelli Tutti is we can't 00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:55.570 just paper over our differences and you're not 00:35:55.570 --> 00:35:59.510 going to resolve violence by forgetting about 00:35:59.510 --> 00:36:01.730 the violence of the past. It has to be healed. 00:36:02.150 --> 00:36:05.789 And we heal when we go forward with hope. And 00:36:05.789 --> 00:36:08.170 we can only go forward with hope when people's 00:36:08.170 --> 00:36:10.389 suffering is recognized, when the wounds are 00:36:10.389 --> 00:36:13.360 touched. and when we chart a new path together 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:18.360 to go forward. So again, it sounds otherworldly, 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:21.579 and in a sense it is, but it's what Jesus calls 00:36:21.579 --> 00:36:24.539 us to do in the here and now. And in this Easter 00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:27.219 season, we should be thinking about that transformation 00:36:27.219 --> 00:36:30.340 that Jesus' death and resurrection brings about. 00:36:31.099 --> 00:36:35.019 Jesus coming forth from the tomb and appearing 00:36:35.019 --> 00:36:37.760 to his disciples sends them to... pronounce the 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.300 forgiveness of sins, not to get revenge for what 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:44.139 was done to him. And that's a great guiding spirit 00:36:44.139 --> 00:36:47.280 for us. And that's a beautiful note, maybe, to 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:49.659 wrap up our time together. Is there anything 00:36:49.659 --> 00:36:52.820 else you'd like to discuss or say or mention 00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:56.099 before we wrap it up? No, I just think we have 00:36:56.099 --> 00:36:58.639 to sustain each other in hope. We have to continue 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.840 to remind each other that we're not just dreamers. 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:06.300 It is possible to overcome the hatred and violence 00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:10.059 that are so prevalent in our world, but we have 00:37:10.059 --> 00:37:12.820 to take a step towards that. So thanks for what 00:37:12.820 --> 00:37:14.380 you're doing. Thanks for what these podcasts 00:37:14.380 --> 00:37:18.840 are doing. Thanks for what you've created a network 00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:22.760 of people all over to be able to do. Well, thank 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.340 you very much, Bishop John Stowe, for speaking 00:37:25.340 --> 00:37:27.659 with me today. And thank you, friends, for listening 00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.639 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.119 many other podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:39.099 programs at BeatitudesCenter .org. Please consider... 00:37:39.369 --> 00:37:42.070 offering a donation to support this free work. 00:37:42.389 --> 00:37:45.349 And if you can, please leave some positive feedback 00:37:45.349 --> 00:37:49.130 or write a review in the NCR or Apple or Spotify 00:37:49.130 --> 00:37:52.510 or whatever platform you use. So may the God 00:37:52.510 --> 00:37:55.130 of peace bless us all. Keep on following the 00:37:55.130 --> 00:37:58.170 nonviolent Jesus and see you all next time. Thank 00:37:58.170 --> 00:37:58.769 you so much.