Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Maria Stefan, and this podcast
is a project of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you
can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom
programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing
nonviolence and working for a more just, more
nonviolent world. So let's begin with a little
prayer. So I invite everybody listening to just
take a deep breath wherever you are, just to
relax and recenter yourself and notice how you're
feeling. And together, let's enter into the presence
of the God of peace who loves you infinitely
and personally. And let's welcome the risen nonviolent
Jesus here with us. And just take a moment to
ask for whatever graces we need to follow Jesus
more faithfully and to do God's will. God of
peace, thank you for all the blessings of life,
love, and peace that you give us. Be with us
now as we reflect together on your call to follow
the nonviolent Jesus and to work for a more peaceful,
more just, more nonviolent world. Bless us, inspire
us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out
to do your will of peace that we might all pitch
in and do our part. through grassroots movements
to help end poverty, racism, war, corporate greed,
injustice, nuclear weapons, environmental destruction,
and all the forms of violence, that we might
be your holy beatitude people, your holy peacemakers.
We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus' name. Amen.
Well, it's a great pleasure to welcome my friend
Maria Stephan, who's a longtime teacher, advocate,
author, and organizer. about active nonviolence.
Maria has dedicated her life to the proposition
that ordinary people, when organized and inspired,
can bring about extraordinary change. She's the
co -author with our friend Erica Chenoweth. of
Why Civil Resistance Works, The Strategic Logic
of Nonviolent Conflict, which was awarded the
2012 Woodrow Wilson Foundation Prize by the American
Political Science Association for the best book
published in political science, and the prestigious
2013 Graymeier Award. Their second book together,
The Role of External Support in Nonviolent Campaigns,
was published in 2021. Maria is also the co -author
of Bolstering Democracy, Lessons Learned in the
Path Forward, and the co -editor of Is Authoritarianism
Staging a Comeback? And the editor of Civilian
Jihad, Nonviolent Struggle, Democratization,
and Governance in the Middle East. She has published
articles and been interviewed by media outlets,
including the Washington Post, Foreign Affairs,
Foreign Policy, and Waging Nonviolence. Maria
had to delay our conversation today because she
was on NPR. These days, Maria works with Horizons,
focusing on the role of nonviolent action in
peacebuilding and advancing human rights, democracy,
and sustainable peace across the U .S. and globally.
Before that, she founded and directed the program
on nonviolent action at the U .S. Institute of
Peace. And before that was the lead foreign affairs
office in the U .S. State Department's Bureau
of Conflict and Stabilization Operations. She
also worked at the International Center on Nonviolent
Conflict. She's taught at graduate and undergraduate
courses on civil resistance and human rights
at Georgetown University. an American university,
and received her doctorate from the Fletcher
School of Law and Diplomacy. I met Maria at the
Vatican some 10 years ago at the Historic Conference
on Nonviolence. So, Maria Stephan, thank you
so much for joining us today here at the Nonviolent
Jesus Podcast. Thank you so much, Father John.
It's wonderful to be with you. Well, you and
Erica Chenoweth wrote a groundbreaking, game
-changing book. One of the greatest books of
the last half century, hands down, and a lot
of people say that, on the effectiveness and
power of organized active non -finance, the book
Why Civil Resistance Works. And I hope everyone
who's listening will get that book. It's that
important. And so I want to begin by asking you
about the book, because what's it, maybe 13 years
on now that it's been published. What did you
and Erica set out to do? What did you learn?
What does it mean for us today, still, about
the power and effectiveness of organized grassroots
nonviolence? And that'll be the basis of our
conversation. But let's start off from the book.
Sure. Well, thanks for the question, John. And
yes, it seems long ago, sometimes, and just yesterday
that we, Erica and I, joined forces to write
that book. You know, this was back in 2009. I
had wrapped up my PhD where I had written about
strategies of nonviolent resistance and three
self -determination struggles. So I wrote about
nonviolent resistance in the first Palestinian
Intifada, in the Kosovo self -determination movement,
in the East Timorese independence movement. So
I had been particularly focused on kind of the
strategies and tactics of nonviolent resistance
and that those types... of conflicts. And up
to that point, there'd been a lot of great research
done on individual cases and small sets of cases
like the Indian independence movement and the
anti -apartheid struggle in South Africa, the
movement in Chile that ousted the dictator Augusto
Pinochet, how the Danes resisted the Nazis during
World War II, the Polish... solidarity movement
that challenged the communist dictatorship. And
of course, our civil rights movement in this
country that, you know, used, you know, all these
campaigns of nonviolent resistance to dismantle
racial apartheid and Jim Crow and authoritarianism
that was concentrated in the South at that time.
So there had been like, you know, great. And
when I started my graduate studies, this was
the time that the documentary film A Force More
Powerful came out. out that really had this amazing
footage of how people confronted the worst forms
of tyranny, and they used these nonviolent methods
of protest, boycott, strikes, walkout, civil
disobedience, and they prevailed. But up till
then, there had not been a systematic exploration
of how effective this strategy was in the most
difficult context, the most kind of violent or
repressive context. And there had never been
a comparative analysis of how effective is nonviolent
resistance compared to armed struggle and armed
resistance? Because the kind of prevailing wisdom
at the time was that in these really difficult
contexts, armed resistance is going to be necessary
for groups to achieve their goals. And so So
we fundamentally wanted to put that to the test.
And, you know, Eric and I happened to be roommates
at a conference out in Colorado. I was then working
at the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict,
which, you know, is an organization that supports
activists and dissidents around the world. And
we were at a conference about how to teach about
nonviolent action and people power. And so, you
know, Eric and I were going back and forth about
kind of different examples. But what about this?
And, you know, there was. some healthy skepticism
about the efficacy of this strategy, particularly
in the most kind of closed dictatorial context.
And so, you know, by the end of this conference,
we basically had decided that we wanted to study
it. We wanted to better understand the when and
why this strategy of nonviolent resistance works.
So we basically had the table of contents on
something like a napkin by the end of this gathering.
you know, spent the next several years, you know,
culling various data sets and, you know, case
studies on violent and nonviolent campaigns around
the world that had major political goals. So
they were either campaigns that were challenging
incumbent regimes or they were challenging foreign
military occupations and vying for self -determination.
So these were major political struggles, often
with governments that had, you know, significant
military force, economic power, all the things.
So to cut a long story short, so we, you know,
we're collecting all this data, you know, and
kind of, you know, calling up on different scholars
and, you know, and activists to gain their real
world lived experiences of participating in movements
that inform the research. And, you know, the
main finding was that the nonviolent resistance
campaigns had been twice as effective as the
armed struggles in these campaigns for major
political goals. So, you know, they succeeded
about 51, 52 percent of the time compared to
about 26 percent for the armed struggles. So
that was a somewhat counterintuitive finding
at the time. And, you know, the other kind of
main finding of the research was that the nonviolent
resistance campaigns tended to be major drivers
of democratization. So if you cared about longer
term political development, democratic development,
economic and social. development, nonviolent
resistance campaigns tended to lead to more positive
outcomes, both for democracy and for civil peace.
So that was, you know, that was in a nutshell
kind of the research. And I think, you know,
the kind of the why behind. So why is, you know,
nonviolent resistance tended to be, you know,
so much more effective than armed struggle? And
the main finding there was that the nonviolent
campaigns tended to attract on average a significantly
higher. and more diverse base of participants
compared to armed struggles. So when you have
large numbers of people from different parts
of society, their teachers, their workers, their
business people, their faith leaders, their veterans,
military folks, when they're all engaged in active
protest or non -cooperation, that tends to generate
a lot of pressure on autocratic regimes. And
so when you have large numbers of people people
from these different parts of society that engage
in various forms of collective stubbornness,
defiance, non -cooperation, that's incredibly
powerful. So, you know, the mass diverse participation
is where nonviolent campaigns had a significant
strategic advantage. And, you know, because there's
so many ways to get involved in nonviolent resistance.
As you know, like, you know, there's so many
different tactics, hundreds of different forms
of protest and non -cooperation, you know, building
of parallel structures and institutions. So there
are so many different ways for people who have
different physical abilities, different risk
tolerances, different socioeconomic. So there
are just so many ways to get involved. And when
you have more people engaged in various, you
know, types of dissent and non -cooperation,
that's that's what gives the nonviolent campaigns
an edge. So that's in a nutshell what what we
came up with. And of course, you know, the research
has been there's been so much more research on
nonviolent resistance that is like, you know,
built on these. findings, you know, refined some
of the findings, expanded on it. So it's been
great to see the blossoming of the research and,
you know, the real global community that has
been interested and hopefully inspired by it
as well. Well, seriously, so in the academic
world, are you finding, like I know Erica is
now at Harvard, is that it's... being pursued
more? Do you find, I've heard through foreign
affairs and various state departments and governments
are listening to you and Erica. Is that true
that your research is being read at national
government levels and people are beginning to
consider it? Would you say that? I mean, it's
definitely become more mainstreamed in policy
institutions and whether it's foreign policy,
you know, establishments and governments and
think tanks, for sure. And, you know, it helped
in part that I, you know, I spent some time in
the U .S. government. So I was in the State Department.
I was at the U .S. Institute of Peace, you know,
which is an independent agency, sadly, was recently
dismantled by Doge, by the kind of Trump -Muslim.
regime, and so was in frequent communication
with policymakers, practitioners, was able to
talk about the research, the so what behind it,
why it works, and also offer some ideas for the
ways that these movements can be best supported.
So the policy community was very interested in
that. But I would say it's not just been the
academic community. It's not just been the policy
community, it's been activists and movements
around the world. So I hear more actually from
activists from different campaigns and movements,
whether it's for climate justice, whether it's
activists challenging dictatorship, including
now in this country. You know, that the research
has given them hope in a sense that, you know,
what they do can matter, that strategy matters,
that coming together, that building large, diverse
movements, you know, can work even in the most
challenging circumstances. Well, you and Erica
have given so much hope to, I know. All my friends
and I, the longtime activists in the U .S., like
we knew this was working. The way I always put
it was, but you proved Jesus was right. And Gandhi,
Gandhi didn't have. But Gandhi was starting all
this in so many ways on his own and his friends.
So we have such a resource now in your research
that no one else had in history. So thank you.
So I want to ask you about what's happening around
the world. And then I'm going to ask you after
that about what's happening around the country.
And the way I thought of that is just to say
basically in the U .S. mainstream media. you
wouldn't know there are any grassroots movements
of nonviolence and nonviolent resistance for
democracy and justice around the world. And I
know you could talk at length, and I'd like you
to, but tell us some of these signs of hope of
grassroots movements of nonviolence and resistance,
maybe in the last 25 years, or the things that
are happening now that you're looking at and
studying. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's interesting
because on the one hand, we're witnessing this
kind of global rise of authoritarianism and kind
of democratic backsliding that's happening around
the world. So on the one hand, like we now have
more kind of closed autocracies than open democracies
for the first time in decades. So very like troubling
signs around the world that, you know, we have
more regimes and governments that are. They're
taking away people's rights, freedoms, abusing
their power, all the things. So that is happening,
and they're learning from each other. So this
is this phenomenon of kind of authoritarian learning,
how to deal with protests in their countries,
like how to suppress them, how to use surveillance,
how to use repressive technologies. So on the
one hand, you have this really troubling trend
of autocratization, which is affecting the United
States as well. On the other hand, you've absolutely
seen this explosion of different protests, campaigns
and movements happening, you know, around around
the world. And and it's interesting. I mean,
one of the most recent examples, of course, Serbia
has a has a long history of challenging dictatorships.
The 2000 op core led movement that helped out
Slobodan Milosevic, then known as the butcher
of the Balkans. And they use humor. They use,
you know, rock concerts, various nonviolent.
tactics to mobilize the population. And, you
know, within the past year, you've had mass protests
and rallies challenging a corrupt government
in that country. You had artists out on the streets
and this, you know, after there was an incident
where people were killed when a train station
roof fell in. So you had this mass kind of protest
and like rallies and the usual like joy and humor
and non -cooperation by workers and neighbors.
And they succeeded so that, you know, they removed.
their autocratic leader. And, you know, they
still have a long road to go, of course, with
their kind of democratic development. But it
was it was a shining spot. And a lot of activists
in the U .S. were referring to Serbia most recently
because it happened within the past year. I'm
also thinking most recently to South Korea when
President Yoon attempted to impose martial law
and shut down the functioning of the legislature.
And what did you see? You saw mass mobilization
by ordinary people. formed like a barricade almost
to prevent the police from preventing the legislators
from going into session and voting. And, you
know, again, you had just a wide variety of different
tactics, like, you know, K -pop rallies and music
and like, you know, really diverse participation.
You had soldiers who refused to go along with
efforts to, you know, kind of to implement martial
law. And the president was impeached. And again,
so you have a couple of these really recent campaigns.
You've had in countries like... Brazil, where
you've had far right governments, the Bolsonaro
government that, you know, kind of systematically
dismantled democratic institutions. You know,
you had a mass mobilization in Brazil and it
involved evangelical leaders, Catholic leaders,
business communities, universities, civic associations
to push back. And, you know, Bolsonaro was defeated
in the election a couple of years ago. That was
won by the opposition leader. So, you know, you
have just in recent history examples of popular
movements and campaigns that absolutely have
been effective. And even, you know, in our country,
it's, you know, we've unfortunately we're facing
quite a rapid consolidation, I would say, of
authoritarian rule. And, you know, on the one
hand, during the first Trump administration,
you saw a lot of active resistance. So the most
flagrant abuses of power were actually blocked
through resistance, whether it was the Muslim
ban, whether it was attempts to undermine the
Affordable Care Act. So some of the most egregious
attempts to abuse power were blocked. And now,
I mean, you asked about the United States. You
know, I would say the resistance is alive and
well across the... United States. We just had
a massive hands -off rally on April 5th that
you may have heard of, like over 1 ,300. different
protests, rallies, events all across the country,
rural parts of the country's cities. 3 .5 million
people participated. You've seen campaigns, boycotts
of Tesla. So people are targeting Tesla because
of Elon Musk's hostile takeover of the U .S.
government. Stock prices for Tesla have plummeted.
People are selling their cars. You're seeing
various forms of protests and non -cooperation
involving an increasingly diverse group of Americans.
So I guess those are the things, you know, both
around the world and in the United States, which,
you know, which continue to give me hope. Well,
thank you so much. And the boycott to February
28th, we don't really know how many, but maybe
millions and millions of people. And that's another
hopeful sign here in the U .S. Well, so you've
studied so much and so many movements over the
last century and then particularly the last 25
years. And it's always exciting to listen to
you because you're pointing to all this grassroots
movement participation around the planet. And
we don't hear about that. And I've heard people
say that. You could make it maybe this was Erica.
There's more participation, say, in the last
25 years in grassroots movement, maybe two thirds
of the human race than ever before in history.
Like it's one of the worst times to be alive
because we're on the brink of nuclear war and
catastrophic climate change. But never has been
so many people known about the power of nonviolent
resistance and have the tools and are learning
about it and are unpacking it. Actually, oddly,
a kind of a hopeful time. What suggestions do
you have for our listeners, people of faith around
the country mainly, about the importance of just
ordinary people stepping up and pitching in and
doing their part and just getting involved somehow,
I like to call it just tithing your time, to
some grassroots movement? that they feel close
to for disarmament, justice, or creation. I presume
that's what you've seen. You keep mentioning
that. It's ordinary people across the board,
if that the more that everybody gets involved
and the more contagious it becomes, and then
you can knock down a dictator nonviolently. So
the importance of everybody being involved. Yes,
yes. That is the critical ingredient. And I would
also just note some other research has been done
specifically on the role played by religious
leaders and communities in nonviolent movements
globally. So my old colleagues at the U .S. Institute
of Peace, the Religion and Nonviolent Action
Initiative, they were collecting data on all
of the major nonviolent campaigns from 1945 to
2013. found that over 50%. of the major nonviolent
campaigns globally has featured religion and
religion playing a prominent role. And so that,
I'm sure, makes a ton of sense to you, Father
John, but you think about all of the iconic examples
of nonviolent resistance campaigns, whether it
was the People Power Movement in the Philippines,
and think about all the ordinary people, the
nuns, the priests, the trainings in nonviolent
resistance that happened. happened in church
basements. Of course, the role played by Cardinal
Sin and Radio Veritas. And so, you know, you
have these classic, you know, examples from around
the world, the Polish Solidarity Movement. Again,
it was ordinary people. It was students. It was,
you know, parishioners. It was priests and nuns,
you know, and trade unionists and laborers. So
that's like that's such an important thing that
it's like it takes people from all different.
sectors and parts of society coming together,
finding common cause. And often like faith communities
are a glue. You know, they bring things together.
They give people hope. They ground people, you
know, in a sense that, yes, we can bring about
change and that change is inevitable. They give
people a sense of ritual, of, you know, promoting
unity through song, through, you know, processions
and protests that happen on feast days. And,
you know, this. happened, you know, in Poland,
in the Philippines, you know, recent cases in
Nicaragua. I'm thinking about all the people
of faith that supported the youth who rose up
to challenge the Ortega government that was,
you know, abusing power and going after dissidents.
And so it really, it's so often, you know, ordinary
people who, you know, get involved in different
ways. And people, you know, they start from where
they're at. If they're students, I mean, so many
students Student -led protests and demonstrations
around the world have been like kind of the hotbed
of protest activity, certainly during the 89
revolutions and beyond, and more recently Serbia,
certainly. And so it's like students, it's people
of faith who, you know, are able to get involved
through their participation in churches and faith
organizations. And, you know, it's workers, it's
people who show up and deny their labor or, you
know, they do, they, you know, withhold their...
their labor, which is one of the most powerful
forms of protest. And so, yeah, it's people doing
things large and small. And I think, you know,
learning the history of our own experience of
nonviolent resistance in this country and, you
know, it's always been movements and people coming
together across differences. And often there
are profound differences in these movements,
right? People are not always perfectly aligned
on everything, but they find, you know, a reason
together, they find based on shared values, visions,
and a belief that this is what works. And so,
yeah, I think that's kind of a really important
point. And the other thing that I think is important
to... to remember is that nonviolent resistance
is a skills -based activity. You actually can
do it better by learning how to think strategically
about how to organize, how to think about targets
of campaigns, how to choose tactics, how to innovate
tactically. So you're not just relying on the
same three or five tactics. You're expanding
the repertoire to bring in creative forms of
dissent or walkouts or go slow actions, stay
at homes. So being able to learn the panoply
of different tactics and how to think strategically
about how to use them, how to build broad -based
coalitions. Again, this is something that faith
communities are so well positioned because they
involve people who are often like, you know,
they have different political partisan views,
ideological views, you know. And so faith communities
often are places where people can come together
and find common cause. So all these kind of learning
the histories, the stories, amplifying the stories,
learning this. skills through training and organizing,
getting involved in communities in whatever form
that makes sense. Some people want to join their
local indivisible groups. Some people want to
get involved in their parish council. I know
my mom out in Wallingford has been protesting
regularly against kind of the abuses of this
Trump MAGA regime, mostly with other people of
faith. And so, you know, it's finding the ways
to get involved, build community. Stay connected.
See that we're kind of in it together. And there
are so many ways to do that. And that's what
always, you know, I think will sustain our movements
and keep us all grounded, notwithstanding how
difficult the circumstances are. Thanks, Maria.
And a big shout out to Mother Stefan. Thank you
for taking to the streets there. I want to ask
you about that moment. people decide to get involved.
And because, you know, that is so critical that
we can keep encouraging people to join instead
of waiting when it's too late. And that was always
the issue with the Third Reich. And, you know,
people didn't think things were going to get
that bad. And then you wake up one day and we
have martial law declared here in the US and
the Constitution is null and void. All of that
is totally possible. So I want to tell you a
story, and I'm asking you about what you think
about how people get involved, maybe for the
long haul. You know, I got to know very well
Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of
the United States, from my friend Daniel Berrigan
for many years. And he said that the difference
in all the movements that he'd studied, abolitionist,
suffragist, labor movement, civil rights movement,
the anti -Vietnam War movement, was because—
Somehow people got involved, but then they realized
they're going to stay involved. Presuming they
were not going to live to see the outcome they
wanted. They're not going to live to see the
end of slavery or the right for women to vote.
Doesn't matter. I'm going to give my life to
this because it's the right thing to do. This
is a spiritual, human, moral thing I'm doing.
And Howard said, that's the key. He said, once
you get into those kind of people. Then nonviolence
becomes contagious and the victory is inevitable.
It's just going to happen because there's no
peace. That's how people power works. How do
we get there in the U .S. or any thoughts about
that? I asked Cesar Chavez about this, Maria,
and he said he spent his life building. He told
me this farm workers, one person at a time. That
haunts me. But he was at it for a long time,
but literally inviting people to say. Put your
lives in this. What do you think about how we
can expand the movement in effect? Yeah, those
are so many great examples. you know, the leaders
of these movements that knew exactly, they may
not have known in the moment what was needed
or what it would take, but they had a vision
of how change was going to happen. They knew
it was going to be a generational struggle. It
was not going to, all of the, you know, victories
were not going to be achieved in their lifetimes.
And they kept at it. And for many people, it
is because they had a deep, you know, a faith
grounding, a spiritual grounding, a belief in
the inevitability of transformation. And so that,
you know, people are motivated by different things,
of course. And some are very motivated by their
faith and their spirituality. And, you know,
for others, they join movements for different
reasons. There's a profound social aspect to
joining movements and organizations. Profoundly
social. And so often people will show up for
events or rallies or potluck dinners or... you
know, start to inform themselves about what Boycott
Central is tracking for boycotts because other
people are doing it, because their friends are
doing it, because their neighbors are doing it,
you know, their loved ones. And so they're interested.
They want to get involved. And so I think, you
know, keeping, you know, there has to be a space
for grief, of course, and for mourning because
so many harmful things are happening right now.
And they often do in these, you know, contexts
where we have kind of tyrants. And we have autocrats
and other oppressors kind of impose their will.
And so there's, you know, there's such a reason
for grief. And for, you know, just recalling
to in this country, we have such a long history
of authoritarianism in this country. It's been
grounded in racism and white supremacy. I mean,
Jim Crow was like singularly like the epitome
of an. And you think about like the the organizing
that kept people grounded during that period
in the midst of church bombings and lynching.
in fire hoses you know it was people coming together
in churches other places it was like keeping
an eye on the prize it was having actions that
many people could get involved in and like again
this is where the kind of the strategic advantage
of non -violent resistance like some people are
going to be out on the streets in the front lines
other people are going to be doing the behind
the scenes organizing preparing the food taking
care of medical needs the survival strategies
there's not people. There are the agitators,
the people who are going to disrupt to kind of,
you know, bring a sense of urgency and attention.
There are the bridge builders, the mediators,
the people who go between different groups where
there are conflicts, where there are differences.
So, you know, there are the visionaries, the
narrators, the people who tell the stories of
what is happening and what victory will look
like and what the kind of societies we want to
live in. So it's like finding your place based
on, you know, what you are good at. what you
love, and finding what is that right role and
what are the right groups. And if a group doesn't
exist, then create one with five friends kind
of thing. So I think that kind of spirit, the
social aspects, the many different ways to get
involved and stay involved, the belief in victory,
the belief that showing up for each other is
the thing to do. It's like often people get involved
when they see loved ones experiencing harm. they
themselves experience harm. And in some cases,
it's like egregious torture. It's like it's warfare.
You know, it can be people not receiving their
Medicare services or their Social Security checks.
So movements have to be prepared to absorb people
when it's their time to get involved and then
keep them involved, help build their leadership,
give them a sense that, yeah, I can do things.
I can lead a small group meeting or, you know,
something big. So I think, yeah, those are some
of the elements of how to retain people through
what we know are very long struggles. Thank you,
Maria. That's so exciting to hear. OK, I'm going
to ask you my big question, which is totally
ridiculous. And I've been talking about it for
25 years. And I'm going to tell you an objection
to it I heard. And I want your take on it, which
is about what we need, which is a global movement.
And so I think that the catastrophic. Threats
facing the human race. We're living now in permanent
warfare. Extreme poverty. Just 5 billion people
suffering daily. Serious threat of nuclear war
at any moment now. And catastrophic climate change.
Much less all this tyranny you're talking about.
The global injustice and global racism and so
forth. So I think it's an all -hands -on -deck
moment. And that what we – this is me in my bombastic
best, Maria, as you know me. What we need is
a global bottom -up people power grassroots movement
the likes of which the world has never seen.
Way beyond Gandhi, King, the people power Philippines,
the anti – like all of them together. Like everybody
in the planet has to be involved. So if I told
that to my friend Daniel Bergen, he would roll
his eyes and say, no, that's not how nonviolence
works. I think – I don't know what I think Jesus
would say because, you know, I just did a podcast
on Jesus as a movement organizer, Maria, where
he sends the 72 ahead of him in Luke 10. I mean,
that's classic labor movement organizing. And
he was like Gandhi on the salt march. So I had
this conversation. And again, I want to know
your thoughts on this. And maybe it's the wrong
question to ask. And you'll forgive my name dropping.
Years ago, I asked my friend Joan Baez this.
And now I think Joan has been involved in more
movements than any other living person on the
planet. You just wouldn't believe and no one
really knows that she was traveled so much, you
know, in so many countries and she'd perform
at the turning point thing. And she was so close
to Dr. King. Well, she just shook her head and
said, John, you don't know anything about nonviolence,
which I loved. She said, that's not the way it
works. Nonviolence and my experience of witnessing
it around the world, like she was really involved
in the Czech Revolution, Chile, anyway, is it's
organic. It just happens. And I think she's wrong.
Or maybe it's both and. And maybe it's not even
the right question. But, you know, you see, Dr.
King really was organizing. I had Bill McKibben
on yesterday. He's going to be doing a podcast
in a few weeks. It'll be on the air. And he's
talking about organizing, you know. You have
to plan it. and build and fund and have meetings
and set a date and let's call everybody out.
And Joan would fly in and just sing. But on the
other hand, if you look at like the Arab Spring
or the occupation, you know, Wall Street occupation
movement, those were very organic. What do you
think? Or is it all of that, Maria? Yeah, I mean,
I appreciate you thinking big and given the gravity
and the interconnectedness of the various harms
and challenges we're facing, we definitely need
a more interconnected global movement. But I
would say it's more a movement of movements.
I'm not sure you're going to ever see, you know.
kind of a one, a singular thing that brings everything,
but a movement of movements, people learning
from and being inspired by each other. I mean,
there's a long history of this. You know that,
you know, civil rights leaders travel to India
to learn the strategies and tactics of the Indian
independence movement. Lech Walesa, who is the
leader of the Polish Solidarity Movement, at
one point came to Atlanta to thank the leaders
of the Montgomery bus boycott for inspiring their
organizing and planning in Poland. And so this
the extent of global learning and solidarity
and like exchanges between activists from different
movements, I think that's what needs to be strengthened.
I think more stories of these movements need
to be told. You know, think of how many blockbuster
films do you know, could you name that feature
movements coming together against various forms
of repression and tyranny and prevailing? a hard
time naming very many of them. So we need to
like change the popular consciousness that nonviolent
resistance is a powerful and effective and cool
form of struggle and form of activity. And so
I think like I support the sentiment of kind
of bringing together these different threads.
And certainly the climate movement is one of
the best examples where bringing together, you
know, various actions and campaigns. youth -led
groups and others around the world for various
days of actions and campaigns, like incredibly
powerful. So I think like, and now's the time
to be learning from the strategies and tactics
that these different movements, whether they're
issue -based or whether they're kind of campaigns
challenging autocracy, to be learning from each
other and supporting the spaces where we can
learn from each other. You know, like what would
be cool right now, Father John, is like, I would
love to attend a webinar or six featuring six
leaders of faith, faith leaders who have been
involved in nonviolent resistance campaigns,
challenging autocracy and authoritarianism and
hear from their experiences. You know, so these
are like that's just like one example in one
issue area. But what if we like massively increased
investment in these learning opportunities, in
these like storytelling and narrative creation
opportunities? in the skills building, the training.
And that's, you know, when you and I met around
the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative and, you
know, the new Catholic Institute for Nonviolence,
always that was kind of a dream just to build
up those capacities so we could start connecting
some of these dots and be inspired by each other.
So anyway, I guess that's how I would think about
it. But I think we do need to be thinking big,
thinking global, acting local, all the things.
I'm so glad I asked you. Because I hadn't heard
or maybe I don't remember the phrase, a movement
of movements. And that's really lovely. Last
question then about hope and all of this. And
I had Eric Stoner, our friend, the editor and
founder of WagingOnViolence .org, do a podcast.
And he said, I just find this work so almost
hope -making. I think maybe this work that you
and I are involved in, teaching and promoting,
grassroots nonviolence and every aspect of nonviolence
may be the most hopeful thing we can do. I may
be wrong. I'm generally bombastic. But do you
find hope in this work? And where do you find
hope these days? And as you travel and speak
out and talk to the media about the power of
nonviolent resistance around the U .S. and around
the world, is that giving you hope? And do you
see it generating hope? Yeah, I mean, I, you
know, I try to find hope in different places.
And sometimes it can be, you know, when individuals
when I when I see individuals speaking truth
to power and like, you know, standing up. So,
you know, you have been involved in so many acts
of courage and and challenging injustices. And,
you know, I'm thinking about people like Bishop
Miriam Buddy, who, you know, during the inaugural
prayer service, looked Donald Trump in the eye
and said. you know, pleaded to have mercy, for
him to have mercy for those who are having fear
in this moment, immigrants, LGBTQ. So it's the
acts of courage. It's the teachers who, you know,
refuse to take down signs calling for inclusion
for all because they're being attacked for DEI
or whatever else. You know, it's the lawyers
who are standing up and saying, we're not going
to go along with attacks on the rule of law.
You know, it's workers who are, you know, organizing
and pushing back, threatening to go on strike.
And so it's, you know, it's I take courage from
kind of individual acts. But mostly from collective
action. So it's the collective action in its
various forms that is where the power is, where
the change is possible and the like the durable
change is possible. So, you know, the thing is
like kind of horrific is what is happening now
in the in the U .S. is. And of course, you know,
understanding this is part of a longer history,
but things are getting very dark in the U .S.
Like I I think we. kind of need to appreciate
just the gravity of kind of almost the kind of
the fascist things that we're observing right
now. So at the same time that that's happening,
I'm now meeting more people that I would have
never met were it not for this struggle that
we're in together. And it's like it's, you know,
it's anti -war activists, it's racial justice
activists, it's immigrant rights groups, you
know, it's teachers, it's youth. units. It's
veterans. You know, it was just with a group
of, you know, people from different, you know,
from different parts of society to talk about
how to build a kind of a strong pro -democratic
front. And so you meet people, you hear their
stories, why they're getting involved, why they're
staying involved. And like that gives you hope.
And then when you see campaigns, you see massive
actions like, you know, the hands off rally.
I'm sure we're going to see lots of action on
May Day by different groups. And, you know, these
big, you know, kind of campaigns also give you
a lot of hope. It's like people, we've got each
other's backs. We're showing up for each other.
We're showing collective care and solidarity.
So everything from the individual actions, the
small community things, the salons and potlucks
that people are organizing right now, the book
groups, like, you know, those kinds of organizing
and like, you know, the small protests in Wallingford,
Vermont with like 50 or 100 people showing up
with signs all the way up. to like general strikes
that have been used to kind of challenge tyrants
in other parts of the world. So all those, I
guess, are, you know, for me, kind of the bright
spots. Well, thank you. That's a good note to
end on. And I really thank you so much, Maria
Stephan, for spending time with me today and
speaking about your great work. And so I thank
you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. And you can hear more podcasts
and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter
.org. And please consider offering a donation
to support this free work. And if you can, please
leave some positive feedback or a view at NCR
or Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you
use. So thanks again, Maria, and may the God
of peace bless us all. Let's all keep on following
the nonviolent Jesus. See you all next time.
All right. Thank you so much, Father John.