WEBVTT 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:18.190 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.190 --> 00:00:21.370 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.370 --> 00:00:24.710 with my friend Maria Stefan, and this podcast 00:00:24.710 --> 00:00:29.050 is a project of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you 00:00:29.050 --> 00:00:31.550 can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom 00:00:31.550 --> 00:00:35.630 programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing 00:00:35.630 --> 00:00:38.450 nonviolence and working for a more just, more 00:00:38.450 --> 00:00:41.729 nonviolent world. So let's begin with a little 00:00:41.729 --> 00:00:44.939 prayer. So I invite everybody listening to just 00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:48.119 take a deep breath wherever you are, just to 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.840 relax and recenter yourself and notice how you're 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:55.240 feeling. And together, let's enter into the presence 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:57.780 of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:00:57.780 --> 00:01:02.799 and personally. And let's welcome the risen nonviolent 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:06.019 Jesus here with us. And just take a moment to 00:01:06.019 --> 00:01:09.280 ask for whatever graces we need to follow Jesus 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:18.299 more faithfully and to do God's will. God of 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:20.859 peace, thank you for all the blessings of life, 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:24.040 love, and peace that you give us. Be with us 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:27.680 now as we reflect together on your call to follow 00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:31.500 the nonviolent Jesus and to work for a more peaceful, 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:35.420 more just, more nonviolent world. Bless us, inspire 00:01:35.420 --> 00:01:39.540 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:39.540 --> 00:01:42.560 to do your will of peace that we might all pitch 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:45.519 in and do our part. through grassroots movements 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:49.920 to help end poverty, racism, war, corporate greed, 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.540 injustice, nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:56.560 and all the forms of violence, that we might 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.159 be your holy beatitude people, your holy peacemakers. 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.079 We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus' name. Amen. 00:02:04.819 --> 00:02:07.659 Well, it's a great pleasure to welcome my friend 00:02:07.659 --> 00:02:10.879 Maria Stephan, who's a longtime teacher, advocate, 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:15.439 author, and organizer. about active nonviolence. 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:17.780 Maria has dedicated her life to the proposition 00:02:17.780 --> 00:02:21.860 that ordinary people, when organized and inspired, 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:26.099 can bring about extraordinary change. She's the 00:02:26.099 --> 00:02:29.490 co -author with our friend Erica Chenoweth. of 00:02:29.490 --> 00:02:32.830 Why Civil Resistance Works, The Strategic Logic 00:02:32.830 --> 00:02:36.129 of Nonviolent Conflict, which was awarded the 00:02:36.129 --> 00:02:39.509 2012 Woodrow Wilson Foundation Prize by the American 00:02:39.509 --> 00:02:42.030 Political Science Association for the best book 00:02:42.030 --> 00:02:45.530 published in political science, and the prestigious 00:02:45.530 --> 00:02:49.370 2013 Graymeier Award. Their second book together, 00:02:49.629 --> 00:02:53.430 The Role of External Support in Nonviolent Campaigns, 00:02:53.430 --> 00:02:58.099 was published in 2021. Maria is also the co -author 00:02:58.099 --> 00:03:01.360 of Bolstering Democracy, Lessons Learned in the 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:05.759 Path Forward, and the co -editor of Is Authoritarianism 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:09.659 Staging a Comeback? And the editor of Civilian 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:13.020 Jihad, Nonviolent Struggle, Democratization, 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:15.500 and Governance in the Middle East. She has published 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:18.580 articles and been interviewed by media outlets, 00:03:18.659 --> 00:03:21.639 including the Washington Post, Foreign Affairs, 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:25.379 Foreign Policy, and Waging Nonviolence. Maria 00:03:25.379 --> 00:03:28.300 had to delay our conversation today because she 00:03:28.300 --> 00:03:32.819 was on NPR. These days, Maria works with Horizons, 00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:35.080 focusing on the role of nonviolent action in 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.840 peacebuilding and advancing human rights, democracy, 00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:41.180 and sustainable peace across the U .S. and globally. 00:03:41.659 --> 00:03:43.919 Before that, she founded and directed the program 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.960 on nonviolent action at the U .S. Institute of 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.719 Peace. And before that was the lead foreign affairs 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.699 office in the U .S. State Department's Bureau 00:03:52.699 --> 00:03:55.759 of Conflict and Stabilization Operations. She 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.620 also worked at the International Center on Nonviolent 00:03:58.620 --> 00:04:01.919 Conflict. She's taught at graduate and undergraduate 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.180 courses on civil resistance and human rights 00:04:05.180 --> 00:04:08.520 at Georgetown University. an American university, 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.080 and received her doctorate from the Fletcher 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.560 School of Law and Diplomacy. I met Maria at the 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:18.300 Vatican some 10 years ago at the Historic Conference 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:21.319 on Nonviolence. So, Maria Stephan, thank you 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:23.560 so much for joining us today here at the Nonviolent 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.259 Jesus Podcast. Thank you so much, Father John. 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.120 It's wonderful to be with you. Well, you and 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.000 Erica Chenoweth wrote a groundbreaking, game 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:37.850 -changing book. One of the greatest books of 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:40.490 the last half century, hands down, and a lot 00:04:40.490 --> 00:04:42.949 of people say that, on the effectiveness and 00:04:42.949 --> 00:04:46.949 power of organized active non -finance, the book 00:04:46.949 --> 00:04:51.230 Why Civil Resistance Works. And I hope everyone 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:53.110 who's listening will get that book. It's that 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:56.350 important. And so I want to begin by asking you 00:04:56.350 --> 00:04:59.790 about the book, because what's it, maybe 13 years 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:01.709 on now that it's been published. What did you 00:05:01.709 --> 00:05:04.290 and Erica set out to do? What did you learn? 00:05:04.529 --> 00:05:07.689 What does it mean for us today, still, about 00:05:07.689 --> 00:05:10.709 the power and effectiveness of organized grassroots 00:05:10.709 --> 00:05:12.990 nonviolence? And that'll be the basis of our 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:16.029 conversation. But let's start off from the book. 00:05:17.490 --> 00:05:19.829 Sure. Well, thanks for the question, John. And 00:05:19.829 --> 00:05:24.850 yes, it seems long ago, sometimes, and just yesterday 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:28.329 that we, Erica and I, joined forces to write 00:05:28.329 --> 00:05:33.300 that book. You know, this was back in 2009. I 00:05:33.300 --> 00:05:37.360 had wrapped up my PhD where I had written about 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:40.319 strategies of nonviolent resistance and three 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.779 self -determination struggles. So I wrote about 00:05:42.779 --> 00:05:46.180 nonviolent resistance in the first Palestinian 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:49.740 Intifada, in the Kosovo self -determination movement, 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.500 in the East Timorese independence movement. So 00:05:52.500 --> 00:05:55.519 I had been particularly focused on kind of the 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.500 strategies and tactics of nonviolent resistance 00:05:57.500 --> 00:06:01.870 and that those types... of conflicts. And up 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:05.569 to that point, there'd been a lot of great research 00:06:05.569 --> 00:06:09.170 done on individual cases and small sets of cases 00:06:09.170 --> 00:06:14.290 like the Indian independence movement and the 00:06:14.290 --> 00:06:18.009 anti -apartheid struggle in South Africa, the 00:06:18.009 --> 00:06:21.689 movement in Chile that ousted the dictator Augusto 00:06:21.689 --> 00:06:26.269 Pinochet, how the Danes resisted the Nazis during 00:06:26.269 --> 00:06:29.670 World War II, the Polish... solidarity movement 00:06:29.670 --> 00:06:33.329 that challenged the communist dictatorship. And 00:06:33.329 --> 00:06:35.449 of course, our civil rights movement in this 00:06:35.449 --> 00:06:38.810 country that, you know, used, you know, all these 00:06:38.810 --> 00:06:42.250 campaigns of nonviolent resistance to dismantle 00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:45.750 racial apartheid and Jim Crow and authoritarianism 00:06:45.750 --> 00:06:48.569 that was concentrated in the South at that time. 00:06:48.629 --> 00:06:51.209 So there had been like, you know, great. And 00:06:51.209 --> 00:06:54.389 when I started my graduate studies, this was 00:06:54.389 --> 00:06:57.089 the time that the documentary film A Force More 00:06:57.089 --> 00:07:00.079 Powerful came out. out that really had this amazing 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:04.660 footage of how people confronted the worst forms 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:08.639 of tyranny, and they used these nonviolent methods 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.939 of protest, boycott, strikes, walkout, civil 00:07:11.939 --> 00:07:15.399 disobedience, and they prevailed. But up till 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:20.420 then, there had not been a systematic exploration 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:25.379 of how effective this strategy was in the most 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:28.060 difficult context, the most kind of violent or 00:07:28.060 --> 00:07:31.019 repressive context. And there had never been 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:34.160 a comparative analysis of how effective is nonviolent 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:37.160 resistance compared to armed struggle and armed 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.839 resistance? Because the kind of prevailing wisdom 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.100 at the time was that in these really difficult 00:07:42.100 --> 00:07:45.740 contexts, armed resistance is going to be necessary 00:07:45.740 --> 00:07:49.009 for groups to achieve their goals. And so So 00:07:49.009 --> 00:07:51.269 we fundamentally wanted to put that to the test. 00:07:51.389 --> 00:07:53.970 And, you know, Eric and I happened to be roommates 00:07:53.970 --> 00:07:57.790 at a conference out in Colorado. I was then working 00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:00.689 at the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict, 00:08:00.709 --> 00:08:02.889 which, you know, is an organization that supports 00:08:02.889 --> 00:08:05.870 activists and dissidents around the world. And 00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:08.610 we were at a conference about how to teach about 00:08:08.610 --> 00:08:11.550 nonviolent action and people power. And so, you 00:08:11.550 --> 00:08:13.850 know, Eric and I were going back and forth about 00:08:13.850 --> 00:08:16.069 kind of different examples. But what about this? 00:08:16.069 --> 00:08:19.420 And, you know, there was. some healthy skepticism 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:23.019 about the efficacy of this strategy, particularly 00:08:23.019 --> 00:08:26.779 in the most kind of closed dictatorial context. 00:08:27.019 --> 00:08:29.120 And so, you know, by the end of this conference, 00:08:29.259 --> 00:08:33.279 we basically had decided that we wanted to study 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.940 it. We wanted to better understand the when and 00:08:36.940 --> 00:08:39.600 why this strategy of nonviolent resistance works. 00:08:40.220 --> 00:08:44.039 So we basically had the table of contents on 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.320 something like a napkin by the end of this gathering. 00:08:47.340 --> 00:08:49.919 you know, spent the next several years, you know, 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:53.860 culling various data sets and, you know, case 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:59.039 studies on violent and nonviolent campaigns around 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.860 the world that had major political goals. So 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:04.080 they were either campaigns that were challenging 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:07.700 incumbent regimes or they were challenging foreign 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:11.399 military occupations and vying for self -determination. 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.720 So these were major political struggles, often 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.110 with governments that had, you know, significant 00:09:17.110 --> 00:09:20.490 military force, economic power, all the things. 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:24.419 So to cut a long story short, so we, you know, 00:09:24.419 --> 00:09:28.779 we're collecting all this data, you know, and 00:09:28.779 --> 00:09:31.580 kind of, you know, calling up on different scholars 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:34.919 and, you know, and activists to gain their real 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:38.039 world lived experiences of participating in movements 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:40.440 that inform the research. And, you know, the 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.139 main finding was that the nonviolent resistance 00:09:43.139 --> 00:09:46.360 campaigns had been twice as effective as the 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:50.539 armed struggles in these campaigns for major 00:09:50.539 --> 00:09:53.080 political goals. So, you know, they succeeded 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:55.779 about 51, 52 percent of the time compared to 00:09:55.779 --> 00:09:59.320 about 26 percent for the armed struggles. So 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.320 that was a somewhat counterintuitive finding 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.679 at the time. And, you know, the other kind of 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:08.120 main finding of the research was that the nonviolent 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:11.860 resistance campaigns tended to be major drivers 00:10:11.860 --> 00:10:14.940 of democratization. So if you cared about longer 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:18.120 term political development, democratic development, 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:21.759 economic and social. development, nonviolent 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:25.399 resistance campaigns tended to lead to more positive 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:28.259 outcomes, both for democracy and for civil peace. 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:30.799 So that was, you know, that was in a nutshell 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:34.000 kind of the research. And I think, you know, 00:10:34.059 --> 00:10:37.080 the kind of the why behind. So why is, you know, 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:39.580 nonviolent resistance tended to be, you know, 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:41.500 so much more effective than armed struggle? And 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:44.600 the main finding there was that the nonviolent 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.399 campaigns tended to attract on average a significantly 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.509 higher. and more diverse base of participants 00:10:52.509 --> 00:10:55.450 compared to armed struggles. So when you have 00:10:55.450 --> 00:10:58.570 large numbers of people from different parts 00:10:58.570 --> 00:11:01.370 of society, their teachers, their workers, their 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:03.950 business people, their faith leaders, their veterans, 00:11:03.970 --> 00:11:07.649 military folks, when they're all engaged in active 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:11.889 protest or non -cooperation, that tends to generate 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.909 a lot of pressure on autocratic regimes. And 00:11:16.909 --> 00:11:19.429 so when you have large numbers of people people 00:11:19.429 --> 00:11:21.690 from these different parts of society that engage 00:11:21.690 --> 00:11:24.250 in various forms of collective stubbornness, 00:11:24.269 --> 00:11:26.789 defiance, non -cooperation, that's incredibly 00:11:26.789 --> 00:11:29.950 powerful. So, you know, the mass diverse participation 00:11:29.950 --> 00:11:32.929 is where nonviolent campaigns had a significant 00:11:32.929 --> 00:11:35.990 strategic advantage. And, you know, because there's 00:11:35.990 --> 00:11:38.049 so many ways to get involved in nonviolent resistance. 00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:40.190 As you know, like, you know, there's so many 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:42.769 different tactics, hundreds of different forms 00:11:42.769 --> 00:11:46.669 of protest and non -cooperation, you know, building 00:11:46.669 --> 00:11:49.120 of parallel structures and institutions. So there 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:51.559 are so many different ways for people who have 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:53.659 different physical abilities, different risk 00:11:53.659 --> 00:11:56.639 tolerances, different socioeconomic. So there 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:58.679 are just so many ways to get involved. And when 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.240 you have more people engaged in various, you 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.779 know, types of dissent and non -cooperation, 00:12:03.980 --> 00:12:06.320 that's that's what gives the nonviolent campaigns 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.500 an edge. So that's in a nutshell what what we 00:12:09.500 --> 00:12:11.539 came up with. And of course, you know, the research 00:12:11.539 --> 00:12:14.500 has been there's been so much more research on 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:16.720 nonviolent resistance that is like, you know, 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.120 built on these. findings, you know, refined some 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.220 of the findings, expanded on it. So it's been 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.860 great to see the blossoming of the research and, 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.799 you know, the real global community that has 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.580 been interested and hopefully inspired by it 00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:35.000 as well. Well, seriously, so in the academic 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.879 world, are you finding, like I know Erica is 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:40.559 now at Harvard, is that it's... being pursued 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.100 more? Do you find, I've heard through foreign 00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:45.679 affairs and various state departments and governments 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:49.720 are listening to you and Erica. Is that true 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:53.000 that your research is being read at national 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.100 government levels and people are beginning to 00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:57.919 consider it? Would you say that? I mean, it's 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.740 definitely become more mainstreamed in policy 00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:05.500 institutions and whether it's foreign policy, 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.080 you know, establishments and governments and 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:13.259 think tanks, for sure. And, you know, it helped 00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:15.860 in part that I, you know, I spent some time in 00:13:15.860 --> 00:13:17.759 the U .S. government. So I was in the State Department. 00:13:17.860 --> 00:13:20.899 I was at the U .S. Institute of Peace, you know, 00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:23.820 which is an independent agency, sadly, was recently 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:26.700 dismantled by Doge, by the kind of Trump -Muslim. 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:30.720 regime, and so was in frequent communication 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.379 with policymakers, practitioners, was able to 00:13:35.379 --> 00:13:39.200 talk about the research, the so what behind it, 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:45.259 why it works, and also offer some ideas for the 00:13:45.259 --> 00:13:48.379 ways that these movements can be best supported. 00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:52.440 So the policy community was very interested in 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:54.600 that. But I would say it's not just been the 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.350 academic community. It's not just been the policy 00:13:57.350 --> 00:13:59.649 community, it's been activists and movements 00:13:59.649 --> 00:14:03.090 around the world. So I hear more actually from 00:14:03.090 --> 00:14:05.990 activists from different campaigns and movements, 00:14:06.330 --> 00:14:10.429 whether it's for climate justice, whether it's 00:14:10.429 --> 00:14:12.730 activists challenging dictatorship, including 00:14:12.730 --> 00:14:17.070 now in this country. You know, that the research 00:14:17.070 --> 00:14:20.990 has given them hope in a sense that, you know, 00:14:20.990 --> 00:14:23.970 what they do can matter, that strategy matters, 00:14:24.070 --> 00:14:26.490 that coming together, that building large, diverse 00:14:26.490 --> 00:14:29.509 movements, you know, can work even in the most 00:14:29.509 --> 00:14:32.250 challenging circumstances. Well, you and Erica 00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:36.799 have given so much hope to, I know. All my friends 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.620 and I, the longtime activists in the U .S., like 00:14:39.620 --> 00:14:42.379 we knew this was working. The way I always put 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:46.259 it was, but you proved Jesus was right. And Gandhi, 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:48.779 Gandhi didn't have. But Gandhi was starting all 00:14:48.779 --> 00:14:51.860 this in so many ways on his own and his friends. 00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:57.580 So we have such a resource now in your research 00:14:57.580 --> 00:15:01.779 that no one else had in history. So thank you. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.139 So I want to ask you about what's happening around 00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:06.440 the world. And then I'm going to ask you after 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:08.159 that about what's happening around the country. 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:11.159 And the way I thought of that is just to say 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:15.970 basically in the U .S. mainstream media. you 00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:17.970 wouldn't know there are any grassroots movements 00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.309 of nonviolence and nonviolent resistance for 00:15:20.309 --> 00:15:24.730 democracy and justice around the world. And I 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:27.649 know you could talk at length, and I'd like you 00:15:27.649 --> 00:15:30.870 to, but tell us some of these signs of hope of 00:15:30.870 --> 00:15:33.429 grassroots movements of nonviolence and resistance, 00:15:33.649 --> 00:15:36.850 maybe in the last 25 years, or the things that 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.909 are happening now that you're looking at and 00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:44.350 studying. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's interesting 00:15:44.350 --> 00:15:47.649 because on the one hand, we're witnessing this 00:15:47.649 --> 00:15:51.970 kind of global rise of authoritarianism and kind 00:15:51.970 --> 00:15:54.649 of democratic backsliding that's happening around 00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:57.610 the world. So on the one hand, like we now have 00:15:57.610 --> 00:16:01.929 more kind of closed autocracies than open democracies 00:16:01.929 --> 00:16:06.070 for the first time in decades. So very like troubling 00:16:06.070 --> 00:16:09.389 signs around the world that, you know, we have 00:16:09.389 --> 00:16:11.629 more regimes and governments that are. They're 00:16:11.629 --> 00:16:14.929 taking away people's rights, freedoms, abusing 00:16:14.929 --> 00:16:17.289 their power, all the things. So that is happening, 00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:18.769 and they're learning from each other. So this 00:16:18.769 --> 00:16:22.090 is this phenomenon of kind of authoritarian learning, 00:16:22.250 --> 00:16:25.090 how to deal with protests in their countries, 00:16:25.210 --> 00:16:28.409 like how to suppress them, how to use surveillance, 00:16:28.789 --> 00:16:31.730 how to use repressive technologies. So on the 00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:35.090 one hand, you have this really troubling trend 00:16:35.090 --> 00:16:38.750 of autocratization, which is affecting the United 00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:42.539 States as well. On the other hand, you've absolutely 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:45.259 seen this explosion of different protests, campaigns 00:16:45.259 --> 00:16:48.000 and movements happening, you know, around around 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.580 the world. And and it's interesting. I mean, 00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:53.720 one of the most recent examples, of course, Serbia 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:58.259 has a has a long history of challenging dictatorships. 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:02.320 The 2000 op core led movement that helped out 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.500 Slobodan Milosevic, then known as the butcher 00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:06.660 of the Balkans. And they use humor. They use, 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.900 you know, rock concerts, various nonviolent. 00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:12.519 tactics to mobilize the population. And, you 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.920 know, within the past year, you've had mass protests 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.019 and rallies challenging a corrupt government 00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:21.759 in that country. You had artists out on the streets 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:23.599 and this, you know, after there was an incident 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.839 where people were killed when a train station 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:30.220 roof fell in. So you had this mass kind of protest 00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:33.839 and like rallies and the usual like joy and humor 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.400 and non -cooperation by workers and neighbors. 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.460 And they succeeded so that, you know, they removed. 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.180 their autocratic leader. And, you know, they 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:44.319 still have a long road to go, of course, with 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.799 their kind of democratic development. But it 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:48.740 was it was a shining spot. And a lot of activists 00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:51.319 in the U .S. were referring to Serbia most recently 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:53.619 because it happened within the past year. I'm 00:17:53.619 --> 00:17:56.000 also thinking most recently to South Korea when 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.420 President Yoon attempted to impose martial law 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:02.880 and shut down the functioning of the legislature. 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.539 And what did you see? You saw mass mobilization 00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:12.069 by ordinary people. formed like a barricade almost 00:18:12.069 --> 00:18:15.269 to prevent the police from preventing the legislators 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:19.130 from going into session and voting. And, you 00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:23.529 know, again, you had just a wide variety of different 00:18:23.529 --> 00:18:26.869 tactics, like, you know, K -pop rallies and music 00:18:26.869 --> 00:18:29.849 and like, you know, really diverse participation. 00:18:29.890 --> 00:18:33.529 You had soldiers who refused to go along with 00:18:33.529 --> 00:18:37.650 efforts to, you know, kind of to implement martial 00:18:37.650 --> 00:18:41.730 law. And the president was impeached. And again, 00:18:41.990 --> 00:18:45.190 so you have a couple of these really recent campaigns. 00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:51.200 You've had in countries like... Brazil, where 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.759 you've had far right governments, the Bolsonaro 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:57.000 government that, you know, kind of systematically 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.680 dismantled democratic institutions. You know, 00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:03.319 you had a mass mobilization in Brazil and it 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.019 involved evangelical leaders, Catholic leaders, 00:19:06.500 --> 00:19:09.819 business communities, universities, civic associations 00:19:09.819 --> 00:19:13.660 to push back. And, you know, Bolsonaro was defeated 00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:17.519 in the election a couple of years ago. That was 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.279 won by the opposition leader. So, you know, you 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:25.619 have just in recent history examples of popular 00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:28.779 movements and campaigns that absolutely have 00:19:28.779 --> 00:19:31.839 been effective. And even, you know, in our country, 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:36.180 it's, you know, we've unfortunately we're facing 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:41.039 quite a rapid consolidation, I would say, of 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:45.599 authoritarian rule. And, you know, on the one 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:47.579 hand, during the first Trump administration, 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.539 you saw a lot of active resistance. So the most 00:19:50.539 --> 00:19:54.019 flagrant abuses of power were actually blocked 00:19:54.019 --> 00:19:56.180 through resistance, whether it was the Muslim 00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:59.240 ban, whether it was attempts to undermine the 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.500 Affordable Care Act. So some of the most egregious 00:20:02.500 --> 00:20:06.380 attempts to abuse power were blocked. And now, 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.640 I mean, you asked about the United States. You 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.400 know, I would say the resistance is alive and 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.009 well across the... United States. We just had 00:20:16.009 --> 00:20:19.509 a massive hands -off rally on April 5th that 00:20:19.509 --> 00:20:23.750 you may have heard of, like over 1 ,300. different 00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:27.029 protests, rallies, events all across the country, 00:20:27.170 --> 00:20:32.329 rural parts of the country's cities. 3 .5 million 00:20:32.329 --> 00:20:37.910 people participated. You've seen campaigns, boycotts 00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:41.230 of Tesla. So people are targeting Tesla because 00:20:41.230 --> 00:20:44.809 of Elon Musk's hostile takeover of the U .S. 00:20:44.809 --> 00:20:49.309 government. Stock prices for Tesla have plummeted. 00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:53.430 People are selling their cars. You're seeing 00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:57.150 various forms of protests and non -cooperation 00:20:57.150 --> 00:21:01.049 involving an increasingly diverse group of Americans. 00:21:01.349 --> 00:21:03.990 So I guess those are the things, you know, both 00:21:03.990 --> 00:21:06.630 around the world and in the United States, which, 00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:10.509 you know, which continue to give me hope. Well, 00:21:10.609 --> 00:21:14.289 thank you so much. And the boycott to February 00:21:14.289 --> 00:21:17.049 28th, we don't really know how many, but maybe 00:21:17.049 --> 00:21:20.289 millions and millions of people. And that's another 00:21:20.289 --> 00:21:24.730 hopeful sign here in the U .S. Well, so you've 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.910 studied so much and so many movements over the 00:21:28.910 --> 00:21:32.430 last century and then particularly the last 25 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:36.289 years. And it's always exciting to listen to 00:21:36.289 --> 00:21:39.869 you because you're pointing to all this grassroots 00:21:39.869 --> 00:21:43.910 movement participation around the planet. And 00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:46.609 we don't hear about that. And I've heard people 00:21:46.609 --> 00:21:49.390 say that. You could make it maybe this was Erica. 00:21:51.250 --> 00:21:53.730 There's more participation, say, in the last 00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:56.549 25 years in grassroots movement, maybe two thirds 00:21:56.549 --> 00:21:58.549 of the human race than ever before in history. 00:21:58.769 --> 00:22:00.930 Like it's one of the worst times to be alive 00:22:00.930 --> 00:22:02.950 because we're on the brink of nuclear war and 00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:05.890 catastrophic climate change. But never has been 00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:09.450 so many people known about the power of nonviolent 00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:12.029 resistance and have the tools and are learning 00:22:12.029 --> 00:22:15.630 about it and are unpacking it. Actually, oddly, 00:22:15.789 --> 00:22:18.849 a kind of a hopeful time. What suggestions do 00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:23.130 you have for our listeners, people of faith around 00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:26.990 the country mainly, about the importance of just 00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:30.509 ordinary people stepping up and pitching in and 00:22:30.509 --> 00:22:34.109 doing their part and just getting involved somehow, 00:22:34.289 --> 00:22:37.049 I like to call it just tithing your time, to 00:22:37.049 --> 00:22:40.640 some grassroots movement? that they feel close 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.539 to for disarmament, justice, or creation. I presume 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:46.940 that's what you've seen. You keep mentioning 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:50.119 that. It's ordinary people across the board, 00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.579 if that the more that everybody gets involved 00:22:52.579 --> 00:22:55.279 and the more contagious it becomes, and then 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:59.579 you can knock down a dictator nonviolently. So 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.990 the importance of everybody being involved. Yes, 00:23:03.029 --> 00:23:05.650 yes. That is the critical ingredient. And I would 00:23:05.650 --> 00:23:08.829 also just note some other research has been done 00:23:08.829 --> 00:23:12.250 specifically on the role played by religious 00:23:12.250 --> 00:23:15.369 leaders and communities in nonviolent movements 00:23:15.369 --> 00:23:19.309 globally. So my old colleagues at the U .S. Institute 00:23:19.309 --> 00:23:22.490 of Peace, the Religion and Nonviolent Action 00:23:22.490 --> 00:23:25.710 Initiative, they were collecting data on all 00:23:25.710 --> 00:23:30.069 of the major nonviolent campaigns from 1945 to 00:23:30.069 --> 00:23:35.470 2013. found that over 50%. of the major nonviolent 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:39.170 campaigns globally has featured religion and 00:23:39.170 --> 00:23:42.349 religion playing a prominent role. And so that, 00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:45.990 I'm sure, makes a ton of sense to you, Father 00:23:45.990 --> 00:23:49.670 John, but you think about all of the iconic examples 00:23:49.670 --> 00:23:53.990 of nonviolent resistance campaigns, whether it 00:23:53.990 --> 00:23:56.210 was the People Power Movement in the Philippines, 00:23:56.410 --> 00:23:59.369 and think about all the ordinary people, the 00:23:59.369 --> 00:24:02.490 nuns, the priests, the trainings in nonviolent 00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:04.210 resistance that happened. happened in church 00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.569 basements. Of course, the role played by Cardinal 00:24:06.569 --> 00:24:10.009 Sin and Radio Veritas. And so, you know, you 00:24:10.009 --> 00:24:13.390 have these classic, you know, examples from around 00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:15.369 the world, the Polish Solidarity Movement. Again, 00:24:15.509 --> 00:24:18.930 it was ordinary people. It was students. It was, 00:24:18.930 --> 00:24:22.490 you know, parishioners. It was priests and nuns, 00:24:22.490 --> 00:24:25.450 you know, and trade unionists and laborers. So 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:27.630 that's like that's such an important thing that 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:29.950 it's like it takes people from all different. 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:33.019 sectors and parts of society coming together, 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.460 finding common cause. And often like faith communities 00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:41.000 are a glue. You know, they bring things together. 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.880 They give people hope. They ground people, you 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.819 know, in a sense that, yes, we can bring about 00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:50.500 change and that change is inevitable. They give 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:53.099 people a sense of ritual, of, you know, promoting 00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:56.359 unity through song, through, you know, processions 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.160 and protests that happen on feast days. And, 00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:01.500 you know, this. happened, you know, in Poland, 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:04.799 in the Philippines, you know, recent cases in 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:06.799 Nicaragua. I'm thinking about all the people 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:10.259 of faith that supported the youth who rose up 00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:13.779 to challenge the Ortega government that was, 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:16.700 you know, abusing power and going after dissidents. 00:25:16.900 --> 00:25:20.359 And so it really, it's so often, you know, ordinary 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.099 people who, you know, get involved in different 00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:25.880 ways. And people, you know, they start from where 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:28.019 they're at. If they're students, I mean, so many 00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:30.170 students Student -led protests and demonstrations 00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:33.809 around the world have been like kind of the hotbed 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.509 of protest activity, certainly during the 89 00:25:37.509 --> 00:25:39.890 revolutions and beyond, and more recently Serbia, 00:25:40.049 --> 00:25:42.869 certainly. And so it's like students, it's people 00:25:42.869 --> 00:25:45.589 of faith who, you know, are able to get involved 00:25:45.589 --> 00:25:49.630 through their participation in churches and faith 00:25:49.630 --> 00:25:52.670 organizations. And, you know, it's workers, it's 00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:55.589 people who show up and deny their labor or, you 00:25:55.589 --> 00:25:58.009 know, they do, they, you know, withhold their... 00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:00.569 their labor, which is one of the most powerful 00:26:00.569 --> 00:26:05.029 forms of protest. And so, yeah, it's people doing 00:26:05.029 --> 00:26:09.009 things large and small. And I think, you know, 00:26:09.009 --> 00:26:12.849 learning the history of our own experience of 00:26:12.849 --> 00:26:15.509 nonviolent resistance in this country and, you 00:26:15.509 --> 00:26:17.529 know, it's always been movements and people coming 00:26:17.529 --> 00:26:19.509 together across differences. And often there 00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:21.549 are profound differences in these movements, 00:26:21.769 --> 00:26:23.869 right? People are not always perfectly aligned 00:26:23.869 --> 00:26:26.849 on everything, but they find, you know, a reason 00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.339 together, they find based on shared values, visions, 00:26:30.619 --> 00:26:34.099 and a belief that this is what works. And so, 00:26:34.099 --> 00:26:37.420 yeah, I think that's kind of a really important 00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:39.900 point. And the other thing that I think is important 00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:43.349 to... to remember is that nonviolent resistance 00:26:43.349 --> 00:26:46.670 is a skills -based activity. You actually can 00:26:46.670 --> 00:26:50.470 do it better by learning how to think strategically 00:26:50.470 --> 00:26:54.029 about how to organize, how to think about targets 00:26:54.029 --> 00:26:56.849 of campaigns, how to choose tactics, how to innovate 00:26:56.849 --> 00:26:59.430 tactically. So you're not just relying on the 00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:02.210 same three or five tactics. You're expanding 00:27:02.210 --> 00:27:05.349 the repertoire to bring in creative forms of 00:27:05.349 --> 00:27:08.369 dissent or walkouts or go slow actions, stay 00:27:08.369 --> 00:27:12.779 at homes. So being able to learn the panoply 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.059 of different tactics and how to think strategically 00:27:15.059 --> 00:27:17.200 about how to use them, how to build broad -based 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.619 coalitions. Again, this is something that faith 00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:22.039 communities are so well positioned because they 00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:23.960 involve people who are often like, you know, 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.039 they have different political partisan views, 00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:29.720 ideological views, you know. And so faith communities 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:32.000 often are places where people can come together 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.119 and find common cause. So all these kind of learning 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.980 the histories, the stories, amplifying the stories, 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.160 learning this. skills through training and organizing, 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.759 getting involved in communities in whatever form 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.500 that makes sense. Some people want to join their 00:27:48.500 --> 00:27:50.559 local indivisible groups. Some people want to 00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:52.920 get involved in their parish council. I know 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.799 my mom out in Wallingford has been protesting 00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:00.039 regularly against kind of the abuses of this 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:03.900 Trump MAGA regime, mostly with other people of 00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:06.839 faith. And so, you know, it's finding the ways 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.299 to get involved, build community. Stay connected. 00:28:11.619 --> 00:28:14.240 See that we're kind of in it together. And there 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.359 are so many ways to do that. And that's what 00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:20.440 always, you know, I think will sustain our movements 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:24.920 and keep us all grounded, notwithstanding how 00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:27.519 difficult the circumstances are. Thanks, Maria. 00:28:27.619 --> 00:28:31.579 And a big shout out to Mother Stefan. Thank you 00:28:31.579 --> 00:28:34.619 for taking to the streets there. I want to ask 00:28:34.619 --> 00:28:39.869 you about that moment. people decide to get involved. 00:28:40.869 --> 00:28:44.630 And because, you know, that is so critical that 00:28:44.630 --> 00:28:48.789 we can keep encouraging people to join instead 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:51.569 of waiting when it's too late. And that was always 00:28:51.569 --> 00:28:53.930 the issue with the Third Reich. And, you know, 00:28:53.970 --> 00:28:56.170 people didn't think things were going to get 00:28:56.170 --> 00:28:59.410 that bad. And then you wake up one day and we 00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:01.789 have martial law declared here in the US and 00:29:01.789 --> 00:29:03.890 the Constitution is null and void. All of that 00:29:03.890 --> 00:29:07.099 is totally possible. So I want to tell you a 00:29:07.099 --> 00:29:10.099 story, and I'm asking you about what you think 00:29:10.099 --> 00:29:14.140 about how people get involved, maybe for the 00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:16.720 long haul. You know, I got to know very well 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.019 Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of 00:29:19.019 --> 00:29:21.680 the United States, from my friend Daniel Berrigan 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.960 for many years. And he said that the difference 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.859 in all the movements that he'd studied, abolitionist, 00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:31.720 suffragist, labor movement, civil rights movement, 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.359 the anti -Vietnam War movement, was because— 00:29:35.470 --> 00:29:38.950 Somehow people got involved, but then they realized 00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:44.190 they're going to stay involved. Presuming they 00:29:44.190 --> 00:29:46.690 were not going to live to see the outcome they 00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:48.509 wanted. They're not going to live to see the 00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:50.730 end of slavery or the right for women to vote. 00:29:50.829 --> 00:29:53.630 Doesn't matter. I'm going to give my life to 00:29:53.630 --> 00:29:56.930 this because it's the right thing to do. This 00:29:56.930 --> 00:30:00.009 is a spiritual, human, moral thing I'm doing. 00:30:00.210 --> 00:30:03.750 And Howard said, that's the key. He said, once 00:30:03.750 --> 00:30:08.519 you get into those kind of people. Then nonviolence 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:11.160 becomes contagious and the victory is inevitable. 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.980 It's just going to happen because there's no 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:16.920 peace. That's how people power works. How do 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.859 we get there in the U .S. or any thoughts about 00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:23.559 that? I asked Cesar Chavez about this, Maria, 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.380 and he said he spent his life building. He told 00:30:26.380 --> 00:30:30.240 me this farm workers, one person at a time. That 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.039 haunts me. But he was at it for a long time, 00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:35.960 but literally inviting people to say. Put your 00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.720 lives in this. What do you think about how we 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.519 can expand the movement in effect? Yeah, those 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:47.819 are so many great examples. you know, the leaders 00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:51.420 of these movements that knew exactly, they may 00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:53.599 not have known in the moment what was needed 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:55.220 or what it would take, but they had a vision 00:30:55.220 --> 00:30:57.299 of how change was going to happen. They knew 00:30:57.299 --> 00:31:00.000 it was going to be a generational struggle. It 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:02.839 was not going to, all of the, you know, victories 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:04.740 were not going to be achieved in their lifetimes. 00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:07.279 And they kept at it. And for many people, it 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.259 is because they had a deep, you know, a faith 00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:12.740 grounding, a spiritual grounding, a belief in 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:16.980 the inevitability of transformation. And so that, 00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:20.619 you know, people are motivated by different things, 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:24.859 of course. And some are very motivated by their 00:31:24.859 --> 00:31:28.400 faith and their spirituality. And, you know, 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.660 for others, they join movements for different 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:33.519 reasons. There's a profound social aspect to 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.559 joining movements and organizations. Profoundly 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:40.920 social. And so often people will show up for 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:45.200 events or rallies or potluck dinners or... you 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.859 know, start to inform themselves about what Boycott 00:31:47.859 --> 00:31:50.640 Central is tracking for boycotts because other 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.440 people are doing it, because their friends are 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.019 doing it, because their neighbors are doing it, 00:31:55.140 --> 00:31:58.299 you know, their loved ones. And so they're interested. 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:00.880 They want to get involved. And so I think, you 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.160 know, keeping, you know, there has to be a space 00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:05.759 for grief, of course, and for mourning because 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:08.559 so many harmful things are happening right now. 00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:12.099 And they often do in these, you know, contexts 00:32:12.099 --> 00:32:15.210 where we have kind of tyrants. And we have autocrats 00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:18.230 and other oppressors kind of impose their will. 00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:20.849 And so there's, you know, there's such a reason 00:32:20.849 --> 00:32:23.369 for grief. And for, you know, just recalling 00:32:23.369 --> 00:32:25.309 to in this country, we have such a long history 00:32:25.309 --> 00:32:27.569 of authoritarianism in this country. It's been 00:32:27.569 --> 00:32:30.369 grounded in racism and white supremacy. I mean, 00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:34.069 Jim Crow was like singularly like the epitome 00:32:34.069 --> 00:32:37.289 of an. And you think about like the the organizing 00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:40.569 that kept people grounded during that period 00:32:40.569 --> 00:32:43.329 in the midst of church bombings and lynching. 00:32:43.470 --> 00:32:47.049 in fire hoses you know it was people coming together 00:32:47.049 --> 00:32:50.450 in churches other places it was like keeping 00:32:50.450 --> 00:32:53.750 an eye on the prize it was having actions that 00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:56.809 many people could get involved in and like again 00:32:56.809 --> 00:32:59.250 this is where the kind of the strategic advantage 00:32:59.250 --> 00:33:02.049 of non -violent resistance like some people are 00:33:02.049 --> 00:33:04.410 going to be out on the streets in the front lines 00:33:04.410 --> 00:33:06.730 other people are going to be doing the behind 00:33:06.730 --> 00:33:09.250 the scenes organizing preparing the food taking 00:33:09.250 --> 00:33:12.250 care of medical needs the survival strategies 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:14.700 there's not people. There are the agitators, 00:33:14.740 --> 00:33:17.200 the people who are going to disrupt to kind of, 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:19.440 you know, bring a sense of urgency and attention. 00:33:19.779 --> 00:33:21.980 There are the bridge builders, the mediators, 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.940 the people who go between different groups where 00:33:24.940 --> 00:33:26.759 there are conflicts, where there are differences. 00:33:27.259 --> 00:33:29.779 So, you know, there are the visionaries, the 00:33:29.779 --> 00:33:32.259 narrators, the people who tell the stories of 00:33:32.259 --> 00:33:34.099 what is happening and what victory will look 00:33:34.099 --> 00:33:35.960 like and what the kind of societies we want to 00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:39.140 live in. So it's like finding your place based 00:33:39.140 --> 00:33:42.220 on, you know, what you are good at. what you 00:33:42.220 --> 00:33:46.059 love, and finding what is that right role and 00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:48.000 what are the right groups. And if a group doesn't 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.440 exist, then create one with five friends kind 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.140 of thing. So I think that kind of spirit, the 00:33:53.140 --> 00:33:56.799 social aspects, the many different ways to get 00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:00.759 involved and stay involved, the belief in victory, 00:34:00.940 --> 00:34:04.000 the belief that showing up for each other is 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.859 the thing to do. It's like often people get involved 00:34:07.859 --> 00:34:11.199 when they see loved ones experiencing harm. they 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:13.880 themselves experience harm. And in some cases, 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:16.719 it's like egregious torture. It's like it's warfare. 00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.840 You know, it can be people not receiving their 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:23.860 Medicare services or their Social Security checks. 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:28.099 So movements have to be prepared to absorb people 00:34:28.099 --> 00:34:30.880 when it's their time to get involved and then 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:33.380 keep them involved, help build their leadership, 00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:36.760 give them a sense that, yeah, I can do things. 00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:39.699 I can lead a small group meeting or, you know, 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:41.889 something big. So I think, yeah, those are some 00:34:41.889 --> 00:34:45.150 of the elements of how to retain people through 00:34:45.150 --> 00:34:48.289 what we know are very long struggles. Thank you, 00:34:48.289 --> 00:34:51.050 Maria. That's so exciting to hear. OK, I'm going 00:34:51.050 --> 00:34:53.210 to ask you my big question, which is totally 00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:55.030 ridiculous. And I've been talking about it for 00:34:55.030 --> 00:34:58.949 25 years. And I'm going to tell you an objection 00:34:58.949 --> 00:35:01.869 to it I heard. And I want your take on it, which 00:35:01.869 --> 00:35:05.869 is about what we need, which is a global movement. 00:35:05.969 --> 00:35:09.429 And so I think that the catastrophic. Threats 00:35:09.429 --> 00:35:15.610 facing the human race. We're living now in permanent 00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:21.110 warfare. Extreme poverty. Just 5 billion people 00:35:21.110 --> 00:35:25.389 suffering daily. Serious threat of nuclear war 00:35:25.389 --> 00:35:28.690 at any moment now. And catastrophic climate change. 00:35:28.889 --> 00:35:31.889 Much less all this tyranny you're talking about. 00:35:32.030 --> 00:35:34.829 The global injustice and global racism and so 00:35:34.829 --> 00:35:37.809 forth. So I think it's an all -hands -on -deck 00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:41.440 moment. And that what we – this is me in my bombastic 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.039 best, Maria, as you know me. What we need is 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:48.000 a global bottom -up people power grassroots movement 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.219 the likes of which the world has never seen. 00:35:50.420 --> 00:35:53.400 Way beyond Gandhi, King, the people power Philippines, 00:35:53.699 --> 00:35:57.260 the anti – like all of them together. Like everybody 00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:00.800 in the planet has to be involved. So if I told 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.420 that to my friend Daniel Bergen, he would roll 00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:05.820 his eyes and say, no, that's not how nonviolence 00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:09.119 works. I think – I don't know what I think Jesus 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:12.300 would say because, you know, I just did a podcast 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:15.500 on Jesus as a movement organizer, Maria, where 00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:19.260 he sends the 72 ahead of him in Luke 10. I mean, 00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:21.960 that's classic labor movement organizing. And 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:26.980 he was like Gandhi on the salt march. So I had 00:36:26.980 --> 00:36:28.960 this conversation. And again, I want to know 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.099 your thoughts on this. And maybe it's the wrong 00:36:31.099 --> 00:36:36.519 question to ask. And you'll forgive my name dropping. 00:36:37.389 --> 00:36:40.309 Years ago, I asked my friend Joan Baez this. 00:36:40.510 --> 00:36:43.989 And now I think Joan has been involved in more 00:36:43.989 --> 00:36:45.909 movements than any other living person on the 00:36:45.909 --> 00:36:48.630 planet. You just wouldn't believe and no one 00:36:48.630 --> 00:36:52.429 really knows that she was traveled so much, you 00:36:52.429 --> 00:36:54.489 know, in so many countries and she'd perform 00:36:54.489 --> 00:36:59.610 at the turning point thing. And she was so close 00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:01.809 to Dr. King. Well, she just shook her head and 00:37:01.809 --> 00:37:04.610 said, John, you don't know anything about nonviolence, 00:37:04.610 --> 00:37:08.989 which I loved. She said, that's not the way it 00:37:08.989 --> 00:37:12.829 works. Nonviolence and my experience of witnessing 00:37:12.829 --> 00:37:15.849 it around the world, like she was really involved 00:37:15.849 --> 00:37:22.829 in the Czech Revolution, Chile, anyway, is it's 00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:27.349 organic. It just happens. And I think she's wrong. 00:37:27.730 --> 00:37:30.750 Or maybe it's both and. And maybe it's not even 00:37:30.750 --> 00:37:33.429 the right question. But, you know, you see, Dr. 00:37:33.590 --> 00:37:37.250 King really was organizing. I had Bill McKibben 00:37:37.250 --> 00:37:40.070 on yesterday. He's going to be doing a podcast 00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:42.929 in a few weeks. It'll be on the air. And he's 00:37:42.929 --> 00:37:45.550 talking about organizing, you know. You have 00:37:45.550 --> 00:37:49.869 to plan it. and build and fund and have meetings 00:37:49.869 --> 00:37:52.809 and set a date and let's call everybody out. 00:37:53.190 --> 00:37:58.309 And Joan would fly in and just sing. But on the 00:37:58.309 --> 00:38:00.429 other hand, if you look at like the Arab Spring 00:38:00.429 --> 00:38:05.070 or the occupation, you know, Wall Street occupation 00:38:05.070 --> 00:38:08.789 movement, those were very organic. What do you 00:38:08.789 --> 00:38:12.840 think? Or is it all of that, Maria? Yeah, I mean, 00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:16.039 I appreciate you thinking big and given the gravity 00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.099 and the interconnectedness of the various harms 00:38:19.099 --> 00:38:21.519 and challenges we're facing, we definitely need 00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.679 a more interconnected global movement. But I 00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:26.599 would say it's more a movement of movements. 00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:29.119 I'm not sure you're going to ever see, you know. 00:38:30.010 --> 00:38:32.590 kind of a one, a singular thing that brings everything, 00:38:32.750 --> 00:38:35.210 but a movement of movements, people learning 00:38:35.210 --> 00:38:37.869 from and being inspired by each other. I mean, 00:38:37.869 --> 00:38:40.050 there's a long history of this. You know that, 00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:42.610 you know, civil rights leaders travel to India 00:38:42.610 --> 00:38:44.969 to learn the strategies and tactics of the Indian 00:38:44.969 --> 00:38:47.789 independence movement. Lech Walesa, who is the 00:38:47.789 --> 00:38:49.949 leader of the Polish Solidarity Movement, at 00:38:49.949 --> 00:38:52.989 one point came to Atlanta to thank the leaders 00:38:52.989 --> 00:38:56.530 of the Montgomery bus boycott for inspiring their 00:38:56.530 --> 00:39:00.320 organizing and planning in Poland. And so this 00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:03.639 the extent of global learning and solidarity 00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:06.940 and like exchanges between activists from different 00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:10.199 movements, I think that's what needs to be strengthened. 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:13.579 I think more stories of these movements need 00:39:13.579 --> 00:39:17.960 to be told. You know, think of how many blockbuster 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:20.800 films do you know, could you name that feature 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:25.159 movements coming together against various forms 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.670 of repression and tyranny and prevailing? a hard 00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:31.710 time naming very many of them. So we need to 00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:35.449 like change the popular consciousness that nonviolent 00:39:35.449 --> 00:39:38.989 resistance is a powerful and effective and cool 00:39:38.989 --> 00:39:42.829 form of struggle and form of activity. And so 00:39:42.829 --> 00:39:46.750 I think like I support the sentiment of kind 00:39:46.750 --> 00:39:48.909 of bringing together these different threads. 00:39:49.050 --> 00:39:51.349 And certainly the climate movement is one of 00:39:51.349 --> 00:39:54.130 the best examples where bringing together, you 00:39:54.130 --> 00:39:57.650 know, various actions and campaigns. youth -led 00:39:57.650 --> 00:40:00.849 groups and others around the world for various 00:40:00.849 --> 00:40:03.550 days of actions and campaigns, like incredibly 00:40:03.550 --> 00:40:07.130 powerful. So I think like, and now's the time 00:40:07.130 --> 00:40:10.769 to be learning from the strategies and tactics 00:40:10.769 --> 00:40:13.489 that these different movements, whether they're 00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:15.929 issue -based or whether they're kind of campaigns 00:40:15.929 --> 00:40:19.710 challenging autocracy, to be learning from each 00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:22.150 other and supporting the spaces where we can 00:40:22.150 --> 00:40:23.829 learn from each other. You know, like what would 00:40:23.829 --> 00:40:26.699 be cool right now, Father John, is like, I would 00:40:26.699 --> 00:40:31.619 love to attend a webinar or six featuring six 00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:34.679 leaders of faith, faith leaders who have been 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.239 involved in nonviolent resistance campaigns, 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:40.960 challenging autocracy and authoritarianism and 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.539 hear from their experiences. You know, so these 00:40:43.539 --> 00:40:45.820 are like that's just like one example in one 00:40:45.820 --> 00:40:49.139 issue area. But what if we like massively increased 00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:52.420 investment in these learning opportunities, in 00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:55.039 these like storytelling and narrative creation 00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:57.400 opportunities? in the skills building, the training. 00:40:57.619 --> 00:40:59.940 And that's, you know, when you and I met around 00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:02.619 the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative and, you 00:41:02.619 --> 00:41:04.619 know, the new Catholic Institute for Nonviolence, 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:07.159 always that was kind of a dream just to build 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.800 up those capacities so we could start connecting 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:13.039 some of these dots and be inspired by each other. 00:41:13.139 --> 00:41:16.360 So anyway, I guess that's how I would think about 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:19.420 it. But I think we do need to be thinking big, 00:41:19.820 --> 00:41:22.699 thinking global, acting local, all the things. 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:26.599 I'm so glad I asked you. Because I hadn't heard 00:41:26.599 --> 00:41:29.159 or maybe I don't remember the phrase, a movement 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:33.460 of movements. And that's really lovely. Last 00:41:33.460 --> 00:41:36.519 question then about hope and all of this. And 00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:40.280 I had Eric Stoner, our friend, the editor and 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:44.079 founder of WagingOnViolence .org, do a podcast. 00:41:44.340 --> 00:41:47.059 And he said, I just find this work so almost 00:41:47.059 --> 00:41:51.940 hope -making. I think maybe this work that you 00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:54.320 and I are involved in, teaching and promoting, 00:41:54.829 --> 00:41:57.710 grassroots nonviolence and every aspect of nonviolence 00:41:57.710 --> 00:42:00.329 may be the most hopeful thing we can do. I may 00:42:00.329 --> 00:42:05.289 be wrong. I'm generally bombastic. But do you 00:42:05.289 --> 00:42:07.710 find hope in this work? And where do you find 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:11.530 hope these days? And as you travel and speak 00:42:11.530 --> 00:42:14.650 out and talk to the media about the power of 00:42:14.650 --> 00:42:17.010 nonviolent resistance around the U .S. and around 00:42:17.010 --> 00:42:20.449 the world, is that giving you hope? And do you 00:42:20.449 --> 00:42:24.099 see it generating hope? Yeah, I mean, I, you 00:42:24.099 --> 00:42:27.159 know, I try to find hope in different places. 00:42:27.219 --> 00:42:30.380 And sometimes it can be, you know, when individuals 00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:33.260 when I when I see individuals speaking truth 00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:36.000 to power and like, you know, standing up. So, 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.639 you know, you have been involved in so many acts 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:42.400 of courage and and challenging injustices. And, 00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:44.199 you know, I'm thinking about people like Bishop 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.400 Miriam Buddy, who, you know, during the inaugural 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.579 prayer service, looked Donald Trump in the eye 00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:53.909 and said. you know, pleaded to have mercy, for 00:42:53.909 --> 00:42:56.510 him to have mercy for those who are having fear 00:42:56.510 --> 00:42:59.070 in this moment, immigrants, LGBTQ. So it's the 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:02.349 acts of courage. It's the teachers who, you know, 00:43:02.349 --> 00:43:06.429 refuse to take down signs calling for inclusion 00:43:06.429 --> 00:43:09.929 for all because they're being attacked for DEI 00:43:09.929 --> 00:43:12.949 or whatever else. You know, it's the lawyers 00:43:12.949 --> 00:43:15.429 who are standing up and saying, we're not going 00:43:15.429 --> 00:43:17.730 to go along with attacks on the rule of law. 00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:21.639 You know, it's workers who are, you know, organizing 00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:25.380 and pushing back, threatening to go on strike. 00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:28.280 And so it's, you know, it's I take courage from 00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:32.380 kind of individual acts. But mostly from collective 00:43:32.380 --> 00:43:35.019 action. So it's the collective action in its 00:43:35.019 --> 00:43:39.079 various forms that is where the power is, where 00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:42.260 the change is possible and the like the durable 00:43:42.260 --> 00:43:45.460 change is possible. So, you know, the thing is 00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:48.579 like kind of horrific is what is happening now 00:43:48.579 --> 00:43:52.000 in the in the U .S. is. And of course, you know, 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.780 understanding this is part of a longer history, 00:43:54.940 --> 00:43:58.099 but things are getting very dark in the U .S. 00:43:58.099 --> 00:44:01.170 Like I I think we. kind of need to appreciate 00:44:01.170 --> 00:44:05.829 just the gravity of kind of almost the kind of 00:44:05.829 --> 00:44:08.690 the fascist things that we're observing right 00:44:08.690 --> 00:44:12.130 now. So at the same time that that's happening, 00:44:12.250 --> 00:44:15.789 I'm now meeting more people that I would have 00:44:15.789 --> 00:44:19.210 never met were it not for this struggle that 00:44:19.210 --> 00:44:22.030 we're in together. And it's like it's, you know, 00:44:22.090 --> 00:44:25.130 it's anti -war activists, it's racial justice 00:44:25.130 --> 00:44:27.449 activists, it's immigrant rights groups, you 00:44:27.449 --> 00:44:29.440 know, it's teachers, it's youth. units. It's 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:31.179 veterans. You know, it was just with a group 00:44:31.179 --> 00:44:33.880 of, you know, people from different, you know, 00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:35.639 from different parts of society to talk about 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:38.059 how to build a kind of a strong pro -democratic 00:44:38.059 --> 00:44:40.659 front. And so you meet people, you hear their 00:44:40.659 --> 00:44:43.199 stories, why they're getting involved, why they're 00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:45.659 staying involved. And like that gives you hope. 00:44:45.860 --> 00:44:47.880 And then when you see campaigns, you see massive 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:50.239 actions like, you know, the hands off rally. 00:44:50.380 --> 00:44:52.039 I'm sure we're going to see lots of action on 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.619 May Day by different groups. And, you know, these 00:44:54.619 --> 00:44:57.539 big, you know, kind of campaigns also give you 00:44:57.539 --> 00:44:59.360 a lot of hope. It's like people, we've got each 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:01.300 other's backs. We're showing up for each other. 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:03.039 We're showing collective care and solidarity. 00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:06.500 So everything from the individual actions, the 00:45:06.500 --> 00:45:10.940 small community things, the salons and potlucks 00:45:10.940 --> 00:45:12.920 that people are organizing right now, the book 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.159 groups, like, you know, those kinds of organizing 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:18.940 and like, you know, the small protests in Wallingford, 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.440 Vermont with like 50 or 100 people showing up 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:24.559 with signs all the way up. to like general strikes 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:27.780 that have been used to kind of challenge tyrants 00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:29.900 in other parts of the world. So all those, I 00:45:29.900 --> 00:45:32.460 guess, are, you know, for me, kind of the bright 00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:35.360 spots. Well, thank you. That's a good note to 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.079 end on. And I really thank you so much, Maria 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:40.340 Stephan, for spending time with me today and 00:45:40.340 --> 00:45:43.460 speaking about your great work. And so I thank 00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:45.280 you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:48.079 Jesus podcast. And you can hear more podcasts 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:52.000 and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.320 .org. And please consider offering a donation 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:58.380 to support this free work. And if you can, please 00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:01.980 leave some positive feedback or a view at NCR 00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:04.860 or Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you 00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:07.780 use. So thanks again, Maria, and may the God 00:46:07.780 --> 00:46:10.599 of peace bless us all. Let's all keep on following 00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:13.480 the nonviolent Jesus. See you all next time. 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:16.159 All right. Thank you so much, Father John.