WEBVTT 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:20.320 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.940 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:22.940 --> 00:00:26.179 with my friend Bill McKibben, the legendary environmental 00:00:26.179 --> 00:00:31.280 activist, author, and founder of 350 .org and 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:35.490 thirdact .org. This podcast is a project of www 00:00:35.490 --> 00:00:40.009 .beatitudescenter .org, where you can find many 00:00:40.009 --> 00:00:43.229 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the 00:00:43.229 --> 00:00:46.130 nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:46.130 --> 00:00:48.909 and working for a more just, more nonviolent, 00:00:48.929 --> 00:00:51.429 more sustainable world. So I'd like to begin 00:00:51.429 --> 00:00:54.570 with a little prayer. So I invite everyone who's 00:00:54.570 --> 00:00:56.729 listening just to take a deep breath wherever 00:00:56.729 --> 00:01:01.520 you are. And to relax and recenter yourself and 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.439 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:08.799 loves you infinitely and personally. Let's welcome 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:12.180 the nonviolent Jesus here with us and ask for 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:17.420 whatever graces we need to follow the nonviolent 00:01:17.420 --> 00:01:20.519 Jesus on the path of peace, love, and justice. 00:01:27.150 --> 00:01:30.469 God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:30.469 --> 00:01:33.629 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:33.629 --> 00:01:37.409 with us as we reflect on the climate crisis and 00:01:37.409 --> 00:01:41.349 fossil fuels and systemic injustice and what 00:01:41.349 --> 00:01:44.530 we can do to resist this mess we're in. Bless 00:01:44.530 --> 00:01:47.909 us, inspire us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:47.909 --> 00:01:50.810 to do your will and follow the nonviolent Jesus 00:01:50.810 --> 00:01:53.890 that we might do our bit to help end the destruction 00:01:53.890 --> 00:01:57.379 of Mother Earth and the creatures. and war itself, 00:01:57.540 --> 00:02:00.120 and poverty, racism, greed, and all injustice, 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:03.040 that we might be your holy beatitude people, 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:06.560 your holy peacemakers. In Jesus' name, amen. 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:10.539 So here's a quote from my friend, Congressman 00:02:10.539 --> 00:02:15.259 Jamie Raskin, who says about my guests, if we 00:02:15.259 --> 00:02:18.340 survive the interlocking plagues of climate change, 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.080 right -wing authoritarianism, and savage inequality, 00:02:23.189 --> 00:02:25.629 Future generations will utter the name of the 00:02:25.629 --> 00:02:28.229 New England moral visionary and activist Bill 00:02:28.229 --> 00:02:31.090 McKibben with the same reverence we speak of 00:02:31.090 --> 00:02:34.759 Emerson, Thoreau, and Garrison. And it's a real 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:37.240 pleasure to welcome my friend Bill McKibben today. 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:39.560 Bill is one of the world's leading environmental 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:43.580 activists, a bestselling author, founder of 350 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:47.360 .org, which is a global grassroots climate campaign, 00:02:47.500 --> 00:02:50.199 which has organized protests on every continent, 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:53.849 including Antarctica, for climate action. He 00:02:53.849 --> 00:02:55.909 played a leading role in launching the opposition 00:02:55.909 --> 00:02:58.490 to big oil pipeline projects like the Keystone 00:02:58.490 --> 00:03:02.569 XL and the fossil fuel divestment campaign, which 00:03:02.569 --> 00:03:04.729 has become the biggest anti -corporate campaign 00:03:04.729 --> 00:03:07.930 in history, with endowments worth more than $40 00:03:07.930 --> 00:03:11.349 trillion stepping back from oil, gas, and coal. 00:03:11.550 --> 00:03:16.189 He is founder of ThirdAct .org, which organizes 00:03:16.189 --> 00:03:19.090 people over the age of 60 to get involved and 00:03:19.090 --> 00:03:23.259 take action on climate justice. His 1989 book, 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:26.879 The End of Nature, is regarded as the first book 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.740 for a general audience about climate change and 00:03:29.740 --> 00:03:32.740 was published in 24 languages. He's gone on to 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:35.860 write 20 other great books, and his work appears 00:03:35.860 --> 00:03:38.759 regularly in all kinds of places, including The 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:41.680 New Yorker and Rolling Stone. He serves as the 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:43.479 Schumann Distinguished Scholar in Environmental 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:46.620 Studies at Middlebury College, as a fellow of 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:49.479 the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.879 has won the Gandhi Peace Prize as well as honorary 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:55.139 degrees from 20 colleges and universities, and 00:03:55.139 --> 00:03:59.120 was awarded the Right Livelihood Award, the Alternative 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:03.229 Nobel in the Swedish Parliament. If you want 00:04:03.229 --> 00:04:05.909 to learn more about Bill, see BillMcKibben .com. 00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:09.069 So Bill, a very big warm welcome to you. I'm 00:04:09.069 --> 00:04:11.229 so glad to be with you. And thank you so much 00:04:11.229 --> 00:04:14.469 for joining me on this podcast. And let me say 00:04:14.469 --> 00:04:17.550 right at the start, a big thank you for all your 00:04:17.550 --> 00:04:20.209 great visionary leadership, your voice, your 00:04:20.209 --> 00:04:23.889 organizing, and your lifelong holy work from 00:04:23.889 --> 00:04:27.370 Mother Earth. So you're welcome, Bill. Well, 00:04:27.529 --> 00:04:29.649 it's very, very good to be with you, Father John, 00:04:29.709 --> 00:04:32.600 and get to say thanks for all your... remarkable 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:34.519 work. I've learned a lot from your books and 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:37.079 from your examples. So what a pleasure to get 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:40.120 to talk today. Great. Thanks, Bill. So here we 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:42.980 are, several months into the second Trump administration, 00:04:43.379 --> 00:04:46.240 and they're quickly dismantling every good policy 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.980 and law to protect creation and humanity from 00:04:48.980 --> 00:04:52.100 the worst of climate change and actively, seems 00:04:52.100 --> 00:04:54.519 to me, serving the fossil fuel industry as well 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:56.819 as coal and logging and destroying the forest 00:04:56.819 --> 00:05:00.220 and getting as rich off climate change as possible. 00:05:00.889 --> 00:05:04.029 Not to mention, of course, Bill, the authoritarianism, 00:05:04.209 --> 00:05:07.670 oligarchy, fascism. I'm going to continue here. 00:05:07.730 --> 00:05:10.089 I have a list. White supremacy, corporate greed, 00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:15.189 and I think service to war, basically. And meanwhile, 00:05:15.389 --> 00:05:18.430 we continue to see almost daily worse and worse 00:05:18.430 --> 00:05:21.610 climate disasters. So I've told you this, Bill. 00:05:21.730 --> 00:05:24.709 I sort of don't know where to begin. So I'm just 00:05:24.709 --> 00:05:27.790 going to give the floor to you and say, what's 00:05:27.790 --> 00:05:30.439 your take on what's happening? politically and 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:34.540 environmentally? Well, I mean, that's a big and 00:05:34.540 --> 00:05:42.079 very difficult question. Let's begin with the 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:45.540 deep background. I mean, the most important thing 00:05:45.540 --> 00:05:49.019 that's happening on our planet is it's rapid, 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:54.480 rapid heating. We've understood climate change 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:57.639 for about 40 years now. That's about how long 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.269 since Jim Hansen. uh testified before congress 00:06:01.269 --> 00:06:03.629 that there was this thing we then called the 00:06:03.629 --> 00:06:06.269 greenhouse effect and that was the year i started 00:06:06.269 --> 00:06:10.850 writing about it um we knew then what the story 00:06:10.850 --> 00:06:14.370 was we knew then that we would if we wanted to 00:06:14.370 --> 00:06:17.810 prevent the destruction of the planet's climate 00:06:17.810 --> 00:06:20.550 system we would need to stop burning coal and 00:06:20.550 --> 00:06:26.689 gas and oil um and so far that's proved to high 00:06:26.689 --> 00:06:31.269 uh bar for us. We've kept burning coal and gas 00:06:31.269 --> 00:06:33.990 and oil, more and more of it all the time. And 00:06:33.990 --> 00:06:37.310 now the planet is doing precisely what the scientists 00:06:37.310 --> 00:06:40.810 told us it would do, overheat with disastrous 00:06:40.810 --> 00:06:45.610 consequences that I won't... bother to list at 00:06:45.610 --> 00:06:49.550 any great detail. You know, everybody gets to 00:06:49.550 --> 00:06:52.430 watch all these things now in real time, whether 00:06:52.430 --> 00:06:56.689 it's the burning of Los Angeles or the inundation 00:06:56.689 --> 00:06:59.949 of the Appalachians or, you know, on and on and 00:06:59.949 --> 00:07:04.449 on. This is connected to the rest of this trouble 00:07:04.449 --> 00:07:09.350 too, though, because one of the things that's 00:07:09.350 --> 00:07:12.250 brought us to the authoritarian past we're now 00:07:12.250 --> 00:07:16.199 in is the resistance of the fossil fuel industry 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:20.139 towards any attempts to mess with their business 00:07:20.139 --> 00:07:23.620 model. You'll recall a year ago when Donald Trump 00:07:23.620 --> 00:07:26.699 was running for president, he told big oil executives 00:07:26.699 --> 00:07:29.459 that if they gave him a billion dollars, he'd 00:07:29.459 --> 00:07:32.839 do anything they wanted. They gave him half a 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:35.740 billion dollars, more or less. And he is doing 00:07:35.740 --> 00:07:39.680 everything that they ever wanted. And we see 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:42.279 the same kind of thing playing out in other parts 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.959 of the world. Coal and gas and oil seem to almost 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.639 inevitably breed a kind of despotism, whether 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:53.160 it's in Saudi Arabia or in Vladimir Putin's Russia 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:59.160 or wherever it is. And so I looked at it in the 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:03.040 most positive way, which I will try to do for 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.959 a little while. we're at the point where there's 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:12.920 a new world struggling to be born. The cheapest 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.040 energy in the world now comes from pointing a 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:19.339 sheet of glass at the sun. And that's a great 00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:25.040 and remarkable gift. The same star that already 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:30.370 provides us with light and heat. And photosynthesis 00:08:30.370 --> 00:08:32.929 is willing to provide us with all the power we 00:08:32.929 --> 00:08:40.289 could ever use. But that great, great gift, that 00:08:40.289 --> 00:08:44.350 great, great gift is a threat to extraordinarily 00:08:44.350 --> 00:08:47.110 powerful people and interests. And that's one 00:08:47.110 --> 00:08:50.289 of the reasons, not the only one, that we're 00:08:50.289 --> 00:08:58.870 now enduring this almost unbelievable siege of, 00:08:58.909 --> 00:09:02.649 well, something that looks very much like fascism. 00:09:03.350 --> 00:09:06.529 I've been alive a long time, John. I organize 00:09:06.529 --> 00:09:10.230 other old people like me at Third Act, which 00:09:10.230 --> 00:09:13.710 is for people over the age of 60 who care about 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:18.850 climate and democracy. And we have a long, because 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:24.519 of who we are, we have a long history. The prevailing, 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:26.860 the thing I hear most from my colleagues all 00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:29.039 across the country, and there's about 100 ,000 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:34.500 of us now, is that this is just completely unlike 00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:37.220 any other moment in the history of our lives. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:39.580 We've had bad presidents before that I didn't 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:42.000 like, but we've never had anything that even 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.620 resembles what we're enduring at the moment. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:52.679 Yeah. Over the decades, Bill, you've led us not 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:57.000 only in truth -telling and reporting on fossil 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:00.000 fuels and the need for conversion to alternative 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.539 sources of renewable energy, but also in organizing. 00:10:04.809 --> 00:10:08.269 And in organizing bottom -up people power movements, 00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:10.690 which I – this is what I want to ask you about. 00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:14.570 Most significantly, 350 .org. And I remember 00:10:14.570 --> 00:10:17.429 well being in the People's Climate March, which 00:10:17.429 --> 00:10:20.850 was the largest protest in U .S. history at New 00:10:20.850 --> 00:10:24.600 York. led by you and 350 .org it was i looked 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:31.100 it up bill september 21 20 2014 we had 425 000 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:34.159 people that day bill yeah it was such a great 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.860 day it was a great day i'd love to reminisce 00:10:36.860 --> 00:10:39.960 with you about it but let me move on i think 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:42.580 now this is getting to my question which is about 00:10:42.580 --> 00:10:47.360 movements so just Take me with a big grain of 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.860 salt or see what you think. I think the only 00:10:49.860 --> 00:10:53.340 response now to this mythic global crisis which 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:57.360 we have created, which no one has ever experienced 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:01.779 before, the best thing we can do, ideally, is 00:11:01.779 --> 00:11:04.360 all do our part in building a global grassroots, 00:11:04.539 --> 00:11:07.500 bottom -up, people -power movement of bold, active 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:11.919 nonviolence way beyond Gandhi and Dr. King, the 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.600 likes of which the world has never seen. That 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.610 literally we need... billions of people actively, 00:11:17.909 --> 00:11:21.169 nonviolently resisting all these forms of injustice. 00:11:21.490 --> 00:11:23.950 So I want to ask you to speak about the need 00:11:23.950 --> 00:11:27.409 and the importance of participating in marches 00:11:27.409 --> 00:11:30.769 and protests and getting with the movement, kind 00:11:30.769 --> 00:11:33.330 of no matter what. Howard Zinn used to say to 00:11:33.330 --> 00:11:36.809 me that in the end, movements become contagious. 00:11:37.029 --> 00:11:40.399 That's how nonviolence works. And it works when 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:42.740 people are going to keep at it, whether they're 00:11:42.740 --> 00:11:45.399 going to live to see the victory or not. And 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:48.019 that's the catch, so that we don't give in to 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:50.480 despair or depression. So tell us about that, 00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:56.220 or reflect with me on that. Sure. You know, I 00:11:56.220 --> 00:12:01.379 think that the two great inventions of the 20th 00:12:01.379 --> 00:12:07.470 century were the solar panel. and the nonviolent 00:12:07.470 --> 00:12:11.169 social movement. I think that they're both remarkable 00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:14.529 pieces of technology that we're only now sort 00:12:14.529 --> 00:12:18.409 of learning how to really make use of. Obviously, 00:12:18.409 --> 00:12:23.990 there were antecedents to the 20th century experience 00:12:23.990 --> 00:12:26.549 with nonviolence, and you've written about the 00:12:26.549 --> 00:12:29.850 gospel antecedents of those with great power. 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.899 But Gandhi, Dr. King, and a million other people 00:12:33.899 --> 00:12:36.720 whose names we don't know taught us a new way 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:41.379 of doing politics. And it's extremely important 00:12:41.379 --> 00:12:48.460 and extremely rich and in -depth in ways that 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:51.860 sometimes people lose track of. So one of the 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:54.779 things I'm thinking a lot about now is the fact 00:12:54.779 --> 00:13:01.700 that Gandhi spent As much of his time working 00:13:01.700 --> 00:13:07.899 on local economies and local handwork, really, 00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:11.220 as he did on standing up to British imperialism. 00:13:11.259 --> 00:13:15.320 The spinning wheel was his great symbol, you 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:19.019 know. And when I try to think about what that. 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.659 equivalent is for our time, I think that it's 00:13:22.659 --> 00:13:26.860 the rapid deployment of the solar panel, of renewable 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:30.860 energy in all its forms around the world, partly 00:13:30.860 --> 00:13:33.399 because it's necessary to keep us from overheating 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:36.480 the planet, but also partly because it's deeply 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:41.080 liberating. One of our two most important commodities 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:46.019 after food, water is energy. And at the moment, 00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:50.590 it comes from a relative handful of people in 00:13:50.590 --> 00:13:54.389 control of a small number of concentrated deposits 00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:58.370 of fossil fuel, all of whom abuse the wealth 00:13:58.370 --> 00:14:02.970 and power that that provides them. But it doesn't 00:14:02.970 --> 00:14:05.549 need to be that way anymore. We now live on a 00:14:05.549 --> 00:14:08.529 planet when, thanks to the God -given wit of 00:14:08.529 --> 00:14:11.730 our science and scientists and engineers, the 00:14:11.730 --> 00:14:14.049 cheapest way to make power is to point a sheet 00:14:14.049 --> 00:14:17.470 of glass at the sun. And think how liberating 00:14:17.470 --> 00:14:21.690 that is because there's sun and wind available 00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:25.370 everywhere on this planet. It's impossible to 00:14:25.370 --> 00:14:29.370 hoard it. You can't hold it in reserve, although 00:14:29.370 --> 00:14:32.789 batteries now allow us to make use of it when 00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:38.490 the sun drops or the wind goes down. It's available 00:14:38.490 --> 00:14:43.330 to everyone everywhere. Hardly worth fighting 00:14:43.330 --> 00:14:50.129 a war over, you know. That possibility is remarkable. 00:14:50.509 --> 00:14:53.710 So some of the organizing that we're doing now 00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:57.029 is all about that. We've just announced plans 00:14:57.029 --> 00:15:02.129 for a big weekend of action on September 20th, 00:15:02.129 --> 00:15:05.309 21st of this year that we're going to call Sun 00:15:05.309 --> 00:15:10.500 Day. And the whole point of Sunday will be to 00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:13.980 drive home the notion that this is no longer 00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:17.360 alternative energy, that this is now what we 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.259 all should be using. It's not the whole foods 00:15:20.259 --> 00:15:24.299 of energy anymore, John. It's the Costco of energy. 00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:27.759 It's cheap. It's available in bulk. It's on the 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.840 shelf. It's ready to go. And if we embrace that, 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.220 then the possibilities of a different world. 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:40.879 begin to emerge. I've been thinking a lot about 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:42.519 this because I've been writing a book about the 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:46.720 sun, even as we've been planning this Sunday 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.360 thing. And of course, one of the things that 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:55.200 I've been meditating on is St. Francis's wonderful 00:15:55.200 --> 00:16:01.000 canticle of the sun. And it was the opening words 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:06.589 of that canticle, Laudato Si, that Francis's 00:16:06.589 --> 00:16:09.850 namesake, now occupying the throne of St. Peter, 00:16:09.929 --> 00:16:14.350 used as the title for his remarkable encyclical 00:16:14.350 --> 00:16:18.690 on climate change and really on a critique of 00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:21.990 modernity, probably the most significant document 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:27.710 yet this millennium. So I think these are extraordinarily 00:16:27.710 --> 00:16:32.690 deep questions and waters that we're moving into. 00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:35.629 We're not talking about... techno fixes. We're 00:16:35.629 --> 00:16:38.330 talking about the possibility of very different 00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:42.309 worlds. Wow, that's so beautiful and hopeful. 00:16:42.529 --> 00:16:45.450 Where can people find out about September 20th, 00:16:45.450 --> 00:16:47.809 Sunday, the National Day of Action? Seriously. 00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:54.309 Yes, two places. One is sunday .earth, and you'll 00:16:54.309 --> 00:16:56.929 really catch the vibe. This is going to be a 00:16:56.929 --> 00:16:59.490 day of great beauty, we hope. Is that a website? 00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:04.509 Yes, sunday .earth. Web thing where you can have 00:17:04.509 --> 00:17:10.450 .earth, not .edu. Yep, sunday .earth. And the 00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:14.450 other place, you know, you can also just keep 00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:18.450 track of this stuff at thirdact .org. Even if 00:17:18.450 --> 00:17:20.650 you're not 60 yet, we don't really check IDs. 00:17:20.910 --> 00:17:24.529 You can stop by and see how it's going. That's 00:17:24.529 --> 00:17:27.230 great. There's lots and lots of groups that are 00:17:27.230 --> 00:17:30.869 contributing to this organizing for September. 00:17:31.929 --> 00:17:34.490 Wonderful. And I can't wait to be a part of it 00:17:34.490 --> 00:17:37.950 and want to help out if I can. Yes, indeed. So 00:17:37.950 --> 00:17:39.630 I want to ask you about Third Act. You know, 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:43.109 it was so heartening, you know, years ago when 00:17:43.109 --> 00:17:47.690 all of a sudden this young teenager, Greta Thunberg, 00:17:47.789 --> 00:17:50.789 stands up and starts speaking out so eloquently. 00:17:52.650 --> 00:17:55.589 Martin Luther King and inspires millions of young 00:17:55.589 --> 00:17:57.970 people around the world to go on strike to stop 00:17:57.970 --> 00:18:01.750 climate change. And then you launch a movement 00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:06.730 for older people over 60, like me. They're related 00:18:06.730 --> 00:18:09.329 in lots of ways. Yeah, tell me all about thirdact 00:18:09.329 --> 00:18:12.430 .org. Fred is one of my favorite people in the 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:15.430 world. Me too. And I love organizing with her, 00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:19.690 and she's just a remarkable human being. And 00:18:19.690 --> 00:18:22.529 the movement that she— kicked off there with 00:18:22.529 --> 00:18:25.569 young people has been crucially important. The 00:18:25.569 --> 00:18:28.069 only problem with it was that I heard too many 00:18:28.069 --> 00:18:30.869 people my age saying, oh, it's up to the next 00:18:30.869 --> 00:18:33.950 generation to solve these problems, which is 00:18:33.950 --> 00:18:39.450 immoral, but also highly impractical in that 00:18:39.450 --> 00:18:42.329 when we deal with climate change, John, we're 00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:46.049 dealing with a timed test. we don't have very 00:18:46.049 --> 00:18:49.390 long to deal with it. The Intergovernmental Panel 00:18:49.390 --> 00:18:51.630 on Climate Change tells us we need to cut emissions 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:55.390 in half by 2030 to have some hope of staying 00:18:55.390 --> 00:19:00.450 on our Paris pathway. That doesn't provide time 00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:02.970 for the Gretas of the world to grow up and become 00:19:02.970 --> 00:19:06.069 presidents and CEOs and whatever. They're going 00:19:06.069 --> 00:19:09.190 to need some backup. And where should that... 00:19:09.309 --> 00:19:11.930 backup come from? Well, as I thought about that, 00:19:12.049 --> 00:19:16.049 more and more the prospect of people my age as 00:19:16.049 --> 00:19:19.849 a potent force began to enter my mind. In this 00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:22.230 country, there are 70 million of us over the 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:26.109 age of 60. We punch above our weight politically 00:19:26.109 --> 00:19:29.089 because we all vote, and there's no known way 00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:32.769 to stop old people from voting. And we ended 00:19:32.769 --> 00:19:35.150 up with most of the resources. And not everybody's 00:19:35.150 --> 00:19:38.690 rich by any means, but something like 70 % of 00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:41.670 the country's financial assets belong to those 00:19:41.670 --> 00:19:45.170 people. And so that should give us, if we were 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:48.529 able to organize it, some real power. And that's 00:19:48.529 --> 00:19:52.309 what we've started doing. Third Act now has working 00:19:52.309 --> 00:19:55.210 groups in pretty much every state. We have working 00:19:55.210 --> 00:19:59.450 groups composed of also... what people did in 00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:02.569 their lives. There's a third act lawyers group 00:20:02.569 --> 00:20:05.250 and a third act educators and a third act faith 00:20:05.250 --> 00:20:09.630 group that's mostly retired ministers and rabbis 00:20:09.630 --> 00:20:15.930 and imams. And so it's been very beautiful and 00:20:15.930 --> 00:20:20.210 very powerful. People said it wouldn't work because 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:24.089 the common feeling is that people become more 00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:27.359 conservative as they age. I don't know if that 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.400 was true at one point, but if you think about 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.519 it, people in their third act now, people in 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.660 their 70s, 80s now, their first act was spent 00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:42.759 in that period of remarkable cultural... political, 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:48.119 social upheaval and liberation in the 1960s and 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.420 1970s. That's very much in our muscle memory, 00:20:52.579 --> 00:20:55.599 our generational DNA, the moment when we started 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:59.859 taking women seriously in public life, the apex 00:20:59.859 --> 00:21:01.839 of the civil rights movement, the first Earth 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:07.019 Day with 20 million people in the streets. And 00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:10.160 half the people in Third Act were very active 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.420 in all of that. And half of them have never done 00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:14.559 anything like it in their lives, but now find 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.839 the time to do it. And also the motivation, because 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.359 they do not want to leave behind a world worse 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.380 than the one that they inherited. And that's 00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:27.380 what we're perhaps unique among generations about 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:30.690 to do if we don't get our act together. Well, 00:21:30.730 --> 00:21:33.410 that's great. Thank you for doing it. So we encourage 00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:37.549 everyone, go to thirdact .org, and it's a fabulous 00:21:37.549 --> 00:21:42.170 website, and sign up and join up. On another 00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:45.950 angle about this bill, a few years just before 00:21:45.950 --> 00:21:50.789 the pandemic, Jane Fonda got it in her head to 00:21:50.789 --> 00:21:54.069 start this vigil in front of the White House, 00:21:54.210 --> 00:21:57.069 and she asked you, and you said to her, thank 00:21:57.069 --> 00:22:00.470 God, Bill. Well, why don't you get arrested every 00:22:00.470 --> 00:22:05.190 week? And that launched the Fire Drill Fridays 00:22:05.190 --> 00:22:08.970 movement at the U .S. Capitol. And every week 00:22:08.970 --> 00:22:11.390 there were hundreds getting arrested. And I went 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:13.230 out and got arrested in one of those protests. 00:22:13.470 --> 00:22:15.990 And I've been arrested a lot, Bill. I thought 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:20.230 it was maybe the most brilliantly organized campaign 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:24.940 I've ever been part of in my life. I was so excited 00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:27.519 because you and I both say that we do need, and 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.660 this is again Howard Zinn, he said in all the 00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:34.220 history of movements, you always do need a kind 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:37.920 of a frontline group of people who are essential 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.980 to a transformation, who are willing to go deep 00:22:41.980 --> 00:22:44.220 into nonviolence and cross the line and break 00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.480 bad laws which legalize injustice. And in this 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:51.769 case... climate injustice. So can you just say 00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:53.609 a little bit about the importance of nonviolent 00:22:53.609 --> 00:22:58.890 civil disobedience on behalf of resisting climate 00:22:58.890 --> 00:23:01.750 injustice and that if people are trained and 00:23:01.750 --> 00:23:05.869 can do it, they ought to consider it? Yeah. Look, 00:23:06.029 --> 00:23:10.650 I think that, you know, we build movements and 00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:17.150 I worry sometimes. that people decide that civil 00:23:17.150 --> 00:23:19.549 disobedience is the most important part of that 00:23:19.549 --> 00:23:24.990 work because it might be the most glamorous or 00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:28.529 visible or something. 98 % of the work isn't 00:23:28.529 --> 00:23:32.529 that. It's the much more mundane but crucial 00:23:32.529 --> 00:23:35.970 work of lobbying, of writing letters to the editor, 00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:42.640 of passing petitions, on and on and on. have 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.599 to happen. There are moments, though, when we 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.339 need to underline the moral urgency of things. 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:53.440 And that's a moment when civil disobedience can 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:56.839 come in handy. I don't think it's a tool we should 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.339 use all the time because I think, like all tools, 00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:04.059 it gets dull, literally and figuratively, with 00:24:04.059 --> 00:24:07.339 overuse. But I do think it's a good thing to 00:24:07.339 --> 00:24:13.680 have in your toolkit. And I think that one of 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:15.839 the things that's really powerful about it at 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.019 the moment is, and this only works if people 00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:26.000 can maintain real and quite strict sense of nonviolence 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.079 and peace, is that it's a kind of counter to 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:35.190 the crazy anger. That's just seems to be free 00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:41.009 floating now in our political culture. So it's, 00:24:41.009 --> 00:24:43.430 you know, we're still learning as we go along. 00:24:43.809 --> 00:24:47.390 This is at best 100 years old that we've really 00:24:47.390 --> 00:24:51.289 anybody's been trying any of this. And we learn 00:24:51.289 --> 00:24:53.730 more all the time about what works and what doesn't 00:24:53.730 --> 00:24:56.190 in different settings. But there are moments 00:24:56.190 --> 00:24:59.430 when it's really important. Thank you for that 00:24:59.430 --> 00:25:02.660 thoughtful answer. I want to ask you about Standing 00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:05.880 Rock. I remember running into you there. And 00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:10.019 when I, on a day's notice, went out for the National 00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:13.539 Clergy Day. And this was part of the movement 00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:17.299 by the peoples there in North Dakota against 00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:20.799 the Keystone XL pipeline. And I wrote about it 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:22.420 in my book, as you know, They Will Inherit the 00:25:22.420 --> 00:25:25.420 Earth. Well, just like a week before we're recording 00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:29.250 this. The courts with Trump ruled against Greenpeace 00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:32.250 and Standing Rock on behalf of the Keystone XL 00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:35.309 pipeline. And I guess we're waiting for appeal. 00:25:35.609 --> 00:25:38.730 So could you share your reflections on Standing 00:25:38.730 --> 00:25:43.349 Rock and the Greenpeace trial? Sure. So the CODA 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:47.930 access pipeline, yes. Look, the Greenpeace ruling 00:25:47.930 --> 00:25:52.630 is a sad miscarriage of justice. But it's also 00:25:52.630 --> 00:26:00.400 a reminder of... just how out of touch these 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:04.380 energy companies and things are. You know, Greenpeace 00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:07.119 was helpful in that work, as were other groups, 00:26:07.180 --> 00:26:10.079 but this was coming straight from the heart of 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.980 Indian country. I mean, this was just remarkable 00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:19.259 organization by the tribes and lots and lots 00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:22.039 of tribes. There were hundreds of different Indian 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:27.539 nations there. uh for that in ways that really 00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.839 hadn't happened on this continent i think in 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.400 a couple of centuries um and so that was one 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:35.779 of the things that made it so relentlessly powerful 00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:38.579 but of course it was also a reminder that we 00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:42.059 have to work on all kinds of fronts um you know 00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:46.900 while we were out there at standing rock is when 00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:51.890 uh donald trump won his first election and If 00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:54.309 he hadn't won that election, I think we could 00:26:54.309 --> 00:26:58.390 have convinced Hillary Clinton to shut that pipeline 00:26:58.390 --> 00:27:01.910 down. So it's a reminder that you've got to work 00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:05.109 in many different ways in order to get done the 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:08.410 things that need doing. Thank you. I'm so glad 00:27:08.410 --> 00:27:11.130 you said that because when I was reading about 00:27:11.130 --> 00:27:14.690 Greenpeace, I was thinking so much about the 00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:19.119 great time I had there. And I didn't see Greenpeace 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:24.019 there at all. But I met thousands of Native folk 00:27:24.019 --> 00:27:27.160 and young people because they asked me to speak 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:31.519 to the crowd. And whereas Greenpeace was, you 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:34.660 know, really behind Jane Fonda and the Fire Drill 00:27:34.660 --> 00:27:36.740 Fridays. It's like they picked the wrong movement. 00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:38.960 Although maybe they, of course, know what they're 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.380 doing. But I like your answer. We keep going 00:27:41.380 --> 00:27:44.059 forward and doing what we can. Okay. Let me ask 00:27:44.059 --> 00:27:46.339 you a couple more. I want to ask you about. the 00:27:46.339 --> 00:27:50.880 spiritual angle or dimension of all of this, 00:27:50.980 --> 00:27:53.220 because in the end, it's not just a political 00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:58.240 or environmental or social or racial issue, whatever 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.660 that means. It's a spiritual issue and a human 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:03.599 issue and a universal issue. It's what I've been 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:10.579 arguing, as you know, Bill, is that, well, Let's 00:28:10.579 --> 00:28:13.140 see how I put this. There are spiritual consequences 00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:16.960 of climate chaos and destroying the planet. That 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.319 might sound a silly way to put it because there's 00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:24.660 physical actual consequences in this that's going 00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:27.400 to affect the lives and deaths of maybe millions 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:31.599 of people. But what we're saying is we're going 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:34.000 to just destroy everything the creator created, 00:28:34.220 --> 00:28:38.099 you know, in the mythic beauty of Genesis. whether 00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:40.599 through nuclear weapons or ongoing use of fossil 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.980 fuels, and that this has to be front and center, 00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:47.880 part of our spiritual lives from now on. And 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.160 in that book I did, I was looking at how all 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:52.900 the different faiths are responding to that. 00:28:52.980 --> 00:28:56.640 It was just agreement across the board that this 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.779 is a central question of any faith and understanding 00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:04.019 in the holy or the mystery of God or spirituality. 00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:06.759 Can you share where you are with any of those? 00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:12.400 Well, you know me. I'm just a—I've never risen 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:16.400 higher in the ecclesial hierarchy than a Methodist 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.859 Sunday school teacher. Well, it's still not too 00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:23.359 late, Bill. It might be too late for me. But, 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:29.059 you know, I think you're right, obviously. I 00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:31.680 mean, I think that, you know, the very first 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.819 command we're given in the good book is to take 00:29:34.819 --> 00:29:39.000 care of this earth. Really? one we've done the 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.180 worst at. And the command that we're given in 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:44.500 the gospels is to love our neighbors. And, you 00:29:44.500 --> 00:29:47.440 know, at the moment we're drowning them and sickening 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.579 them and making it impossible for them to grow 00:29:49.579 --> 00:29:53.599 food and, you know, on and on and on. So all 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:56.960 of that is extremely true. And as I say, I think 00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:01.640 that Laudato Si was the best take on all of this 00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:06.779 that we've had. The Pope's remarkable encyclical 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:10.279 really is powerful. But I'd add, too, that it's 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.140 one of the things that's beautiful about the 00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:21.420 prospect of renewable energy. of making energy 00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:25.019 from the shining sun and the blowing breeze, 00:30:25.299 --> 00:30:30.519 energy from heaven, not from hell, John. You 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:35.880 know, we're able to imagine a very different 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:41.339 world coming at us. That's great, Bill. Thanks. 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:45.059 And I want to ask you a little bit about nonviolence. 00:30:45.059 --> 00:30:47.680 As I've read you over the decades and followed 00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:50.539 you and heard you speak at various things we've 00:30:50.539 --> 00:30:53.700 been at, I found that we're both students of 00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:57.259 Gandhi and Dr. King. And as you know, Gandhi 00:30:57.259 --> 00:30:59.900 said Jesus was the greatest person of nonviolence 00:30:59.900 --> 00:31:02.519 who ever lived and that the only people who don't 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.119 know that he's nonviolent are Christians. I hate 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:11.430 laughing at it, but he was a funny guy. I'm convinced 00:31:11.430 --> 00:31:16.269 that an authentic Christian life in such a world 00:31:16.269 --> 00:31:19.390 of total violence, now on the verge of nuclear 00:31:19.390 --> 00:31:22.369 war but catastrophic climate change destroying 00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:25.549 ourselves, is a return to the nonviolence of 00:31:25.549 --> 00:31:28.670 Jesus, as Gandhi and King insisted. And I've 00:31:28.670 --> 00:31:31.809 been moved that you always talk of nonviolence. 00:31:32.009 --> 00:31:36.190 And so where – what do you – What are your thoughts 00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:39.170 these days about nonviolence, Christian nonviolence 00:31:39.170 --> 00:31:44.529 and its place in daily life and also in our work 00:31:44.529 --> 00:31:51.950 as activists? You know, I love and revere Gandhi 00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:55.430 and Dr. King. The person that I keep thinking 00:31:55.430 --> 00:31:59.470 about. In some ways, my greatest hero of all, 00:31:59.789 --> 00:32:05.630 Ghaffar Abdul Khan. Oh, wow. The frontier Gandhi, 00:32:05.750 --> 00:32:09.130 they called him. Doing his work in an almost 00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:15.230 impossible situation in what we now call sort 00:32:15.230 --> 00:32:19.269 of Afghanistan along the Pakistani border. And 00:32:19.269 --> 00:32:22.349 Gandhi said he was the one person that really 00:32:22.349 --> 00:32:26.960 ever understood nonviolence. He raised up a nonviolent 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.400 army of hundreds of thousands of people who were 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:33.240 able to, in many ways, shame the British out 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:37.299 of that part of the world. And then he had to 00:32:37.299 --> 00:32:40.160 do the same thing against the Pakistanis when 00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:43.259 they took over. He's a reminder to me that this 00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:49.039 crosses all denominations, that Muslims are every 00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:53.619 bit as much leaders in this. work as anyone else. 00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:56.779 But it's also, I think, a good lesson for the 00:32:56.779 --> 00:32:59.920 very, very difficult moment in which we find 00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:06.240 ourselves now. This feels like an extremely dark 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:13.980 time when extremely dark forces, many, many of 00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:18.259 them cloaked in the mantle of something they 00:33:18.259 --> 00:33:27.140 call Christianity, are are undercutting so much 00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:31.700 that we hold dear about our history, our nation, 00:33:31.819 --> 00:33:35.259 our possibilities. And so I think it's really 00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:38.500 important to understand that people have been 00:33:38.500 --> 00:33:42.740 in very difficult places before and that through 00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:48.119 courage and good humor and good spirit, they've 00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:52.009 managed to build. things that brought us forward. 00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:54.569 And I hope that we're capable of doing that. 00:33:54.670 --> 00:33:57.650 Again, I'm not convinced that we'll be able to 00:33:57.650 --> 00:34:00.049 because the challenges that we're up against 00:34:00.049 --> 00:34:03.529 are in some ways time limited. If we don't solve 00:34:03.529 --> 00:34:06.029 the climate crisis very soon, then we will not 00:34:06.029 --> 00:34:10.210 solve it. But, you know, as long as I've got 00:34:10.210 --> 00:34:13.130 strength to do it, I'll keep doing what I can. 00:34:13.289 --> 00:34:15.530 And I know you will too. And I know lots of other 00:34:15.530 --> 00:34:19.219 people will. The only thing I'd say is, Don't 00:34:19.219 --> 00:34:24.260 try to do it by yourself. You know, the American 00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:27.019 default is always towards a kind of individualism. 00:34:28.099 --> 00:34:31.619 But the most important thing an individual can 00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:33.579 do at this point is to be a little less of an 00:34:33.579 --> 00:34:38.059 individual and join together with others in building 00:34:38.059 --> 00:34:40.880 the movements big enough to make change. That's 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.309 why we start things like Third Act. Wow, that's 00:34:45.309 --> 00:34:47.710 so beautiful. And it was actually what I was 00:34:47.710 --> 00:34:50.070 going to ask you next. A great friend of ours 00:34:50.070 --> 00:34:53.809 on the West Coast just died. Lifelong activist, 00:34:54.030 --> 00:34:55.869 David Hartzog. I don't know if you ever met him. 00:34:56.110 --> 00:34:59.489 He started... A hundred movements. I mean, you 00:34:59.489 --> 00:35:02.030 probably were part of many of them. He met when 00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:05.269 he was 15 with John Kennedy about nuclear weapons 00:35:05.269 --> 00:35:08.769 and five other Quakers. And it had a huge impact 00:35:08.769 --> 00:35:11.590 on his friends of Dr. King. And he was organizing 00:35:11.590 --> 00:35:14.070 and getting arrested until just two months ago 00:35:14.070 --> 00:35:18.230 at 85. His whole life message was just that, 00:35:18.250 --> 00:35:24.550 Bill. I never sat around just stewing and getting 00:35:24.550 --> 00:35:27.590 angry and feeling depressed and helpless. I immediately 00:35:27.590 --> 00:35:31.110 found a few friends. Five is all you need or 00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:35.449 ten. And let's do something locally or in our 00:35:35.449 --> 00:35:39.050 state or in the country. And many of those took 00:35:39.050 --> 00:35:42.909 off like you. Can you say more about that? Because 00:35:42.909 --> 00:35:50.269 you've really gone to town with this. You know, 00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:54.230 it's like on a recent podcast I had Shane Claiborne 00:35:54.230 --> 00:35:56.469 on, I was trying to say, how do we help people 00:35:56.469 --> 00:36:00.550 become organizers or realize they have more power 00:36:00.550 --> 00:36:03.610 or that even just a small handful of friends 00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:07.369 can make a difference? I think that's the lesson 00:36:07.369 --> 00:36:11.730 from Jesus to Abdul Ghaffar Khan. But it's more 00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:13.889 than that, too. It gets you out of your depression 00:36:13.889 --> 00:36:18.019 and your despair. That's why Dan Bergen said 00:36:18.019 --> 00:36:20.719 to me as a kid, Bill, if you want to be hopeful, 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.199 you have to do hopeful things. Yeah. Well, this 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:29.139 is a good place to end. I'll just say, you know, 00:36:29.179 --> 00:36:33.199 I started life as a writer and I still am a writer. 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.500 That's my craft. But at a certain point, I realized 00:36:36.500 --> 00:36:40.360 that just providing more data and information 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:45.380 and things was, you know, we could win the argument. 00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:48.780 To win the fight, we were going to have to take 00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:56.039 on money and power. And that's why we also have 00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:58.920 to organize. We have to win the argument and 00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.360 the fight. And happily, we have this tool. to 00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:07.280 do that. You know, nonviolent organizing is a 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.619 way that the small and the many can take on the 00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:13.539 mighty and the few. And we're very lucky to live 00:37:13.539 --> 00:37:15.920 in a moment when you don't have to form an army 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:20.099 to go, you know, kill people to make change. 00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:26.360 You have to instead build a movement that can 00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.460 sway both hearts and minds and in the process 00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:34.619 change. power. And we'll see if we can do that. 00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:37.420 There are good signs right now around the country 00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:39.920 of people standing up to the tyranny that we're 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:42.960 experiencing from D .C., but it's obviously going 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.780 to be a very hard fight. And so we keep our humor. 00:37:46.900 --> 00:37:50.659 We keep our love for each other. We keep our 00:37:50.659 --> 00:37:54.659 eyes fixed on the future. And on we go. Wow, 00:37:54.699 --> 00:37:56.880 that's beautiful. Well, that's a great note to 00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.599 end on. And will you come back someday and talk 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.519 with me about Sunday, your new book? Absolutely. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.260 Absolutely. I'll look forward to it. Thank you, 00:38:07.380 --> 00:38:08.719 Bill. You take care, friend. Thank you, Bill. 00:38:08.739 --> 00:38:12.019 And God bless you. God bless you. Take care. 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:15.019 Bye -bye. Thank you, friends, for listening to 00:38:15.019 --> 00:38:17.440 the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear more 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.460 podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:24.500 at BeatitudeCenter .org. And please consider 00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:27.559 offering a donation to support this free work. 00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:30.639 And if you can, please leave some positive feedback 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.599 or review at NCR or Apple or Spotify or whatever 00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:37.840 platform you use. May the God of peace bless 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.420 us all. Keep on following the Nonviolent Jesus. 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.860 See you next time. Bye. Thank you.