WEBVTT 00:00:14.570 --> 00:00:17.570 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.570 --> 00:00:20.289 John, Father John Deer, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.289 --> 00:00:23.949 with my friend Kazoo Haga, author and great teacher 00:00:23.949 --> 00:00:27.969 of Kingian Nonviolence. This podcast is a project 00:00:27.969 --> 00:00:33.350 of www .beattitudecenter .org, where you can 00:00:33.350 --> 00:00:36.210 find many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs 00:00:36.210 --> 00:00:40.090 on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:40.090 --> 00:00:43.030 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:43.030 --> 00:00:45.740 world. So I always like to begin with a little 00:00:45.740 --> 00:00:49.020 prayer. So I invite everyone just to take a deep 00:00:49.020 --> 00:00:53.420 breath wherever you are and just to relax and 00:00:53.420 --> 00:00:58.200 re -center yourself and enter into the presence 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:01.320 of the God of peace, the Holy Spirit of peace, 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.359 loves you infinitely. Let's welcome the nonviolent 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:08.840 Jesus here with us. Just take a moment to ask 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:14.060 for whatever graces of peace and mindfulness, 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:22.099 and justice that you need. Beloved God of peace, 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.680 thank you for all the blessings of life and love 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:27.560 and peace that you give us. Be with us now as 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:31.680 we reflect together on your call to Live out 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:35.719 and practice the vision of active, creative nonviolence 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:39.780 as Jesus did, as Dr. King did, as Gandhi did. 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:43.700 Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:47.579 and send us out renewed to do your will that 00:01:47.579 --> 00:01:51.180 we might help you to end poverty, war, injustice, 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:56.359 racism, greed, growing fascism, and the whole 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.760 culture of violence. that we might be your Beatitude 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.500 people of universal love, compassion, and peace. 00:02:03.099 --> 00:02:06.379 We ask this blessing in Jesus' name. It's my 00:02:06.379 --> 00:02:09.000 great pleasure to welcome and introduce everybody 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.539 to my friend, Kazu Haga. He's the founder of 00:02:11.539 --> 00:02:15.180 East Point Peace Academy, a member of the Ahimsa 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:18.479 Collective and the Fierce Vulnerability Network, 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:22.300 and the author of a brilliant book called, Healing 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:25.139 Resistance, a Radically Different Response to 00:02:25.139 --> 00:02:28.169 Harm, which I hope everyone will get. He's a 00:02:28.169 --> 00:02:30.889 practitioner, trainer, and teacher of nonviolence, 00:02:31.169 --> 00:02:34.050 as well as restorative justice and organizing 00:02:34.050 --> 00:02:37.509 and mindfulness. And he works with incarcerated 00:02:37.509 --> 00:02:40.550 youth and other youth activists around the country. 00:02:41.129 --> 00:02:45.250 He's over 20 years experience teaching nonviolence 00:02:45.250 --> 00:02:49.310 and social change work. And he resides in Oakland. 00:02:49.819 --> 00:02:52.680 with his new baby at Canticle Farm, which is 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.319 an inner city community of nonviolence right 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.560 there. We're based around a garden. It's fantastic. 00:02:59.419 --> 00:03:02.580 And Kazu has a brand new book out called Fierce 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:06.039 Vulnerability, Healing from Trauma, Emerging 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:11.319 Through Collapse. So just hot off the presses. 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:14.840 So welcome Kazu. I'm delighted you could be with 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:20.400 me today. So you've been teaching Kingian non 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.740 -violence for years, Kazoo, and we've spoken 00:03:23.740 --> 00:03:26.740 in the past, and you bring a whole new fresh 00:03:26.740 --> 00:03:29.300 perspective, and I'm sure you're still teaching 00:03:29.300 --> 00:03:34.060 away. So I thought we could just start with the 00:03:34.060 --> 00:03:37.699 basics of Kingian non -violence. What would you 00:03:37.699 --> 00:03:42.280 like our listeners to know these days, 2025, 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.639 while we're going through, as the bottom line 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:50.979 fundamentals? of Kingian nonviolence? Yeah, I'd 00:03:50.979 --> 00:03:53.460 say a couple of things. One is that in some ways 00:03:53.460 --> 00:03:55.620 it's important to talk about what nonviolence 00:03:55.620 --> 00:03:58.400 is not because there's so many misunderstandings 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.960 of what nonviolence is out in the world. You 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.319 know, one of the things that I always say is 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:04.860 that one of the biggest misunderstandings that 00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:07.439 exists about nonviolence is that it's about simply 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.580 not being violent. And obviously, you know, it's 00:04:10.580 --> 00:04:13.699 part of the picture. But I think the danger in 00:04:13.699 --> 00:04:16.259 assuming that as long as we're not practicing 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.379 violence than we are practicing non -violence. 00:04:19.939 --> 00:04:22.839 Because non -violence is not about what not to 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.180 do, as much as it's about what you're going to 00:04:25.180 --> 00:04:28.439 do when you see violence, when you see injustice 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.259 in your own home, in your community, in your 00:04:31.259 --> 00:04:33.779 own heart. What are we going to do to actively 00:04:33.779 --> 00:04:37.360 transform that violence? I think it's easy to 00:04:37.760 --> 00:04:39.779 see the violence and injustice that we see in 00:04:39.779 --> 00:04:41.699 a world and kind of look the other way and say, 00:04:41.699 --> 00:04:43.980 oh, it doesn't affect me. That's not my business. 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.399 And then think I'm a nonviolent person because 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.240 I'm not actively engaged in the violence. But 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:51.860 nonviolence really requires us to ask the question, 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:55.079 when you see violence, how am I going to intervene? 00:04:55.180 --> 00:04:58.699 What am I going to do to play a role in transforming 00:04:58.699 --> 00:05:00.699 the violence and the harm and the injustice? 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:03.379 And I think the other thing that I would add 00:05:03.379 --> 00:05:07.750 to that is that The thing that Kingian nonviolence 00:05:07.750 --> 00:05:10.230 and other modalities, philosophies of nonviolence 00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:12.610 that are grounded in an ethical principled approach 00:05:12.610 --> 00:05:16.509 to nonviolence is really commit to healing of 00:05:16.509 --> 00:05:19.149 relationships, right? Like as we stand up and 00:05:19.149 --> 00:05:22.670 say no to violence, as we stand up and resist 00:05:22.670 --> 00:05:26.610 injustice, how do we do so in a way that reminds 00:05:26.610 --> 00:05:30.230 us that all the goal of any conflict is the healing 00:05:30.230 --> 00:05:33.279 and the reconciliation of relationships? One 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.439 of my friends and incarcerated non -violence 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:38.660 trainer, he's currently incarcerated in Soledad 00:05:38.660 --> 00:05:43.319 State Prison, once taught me that resolving a 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.879 conflict is about fixing issues and reconciling 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.019 a conflict is about repairing relationships. 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:52.399 And non -violence at its best does both. It figures 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.000 out, it gives us a way to fix issues and pass 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.279 legislation and pass new laws, change policies. 00:05:58.750 --> 00:06:01.850 but also does the work of healing and mending 00:06:01.850 --> 00:06:04.589 relationships. And I think in order to get to 00:06:04.589 --> 00:06:06.730 beloved community, in order to move towards reconciliation, 00:06:06.889 --> 00:06:09.069 we have to have an eye for both fixing issues 00:06:09.069 --> 00:06:12.250 and repairing the relationships. That's so helpful, 00:06:12.509 --> 00:06:14.889 Kazu. Thank you so much. Well, in your book, 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:19.730 Healing Resistance, you outline Dr. King's principles 00:06:19.730 --> 00:06:23.550 of nonviolence from this perspective of healing 00:06:23.550 --> 00:06:26.370 relationships. So tell me about some of your 00:06:26.370 --> 00:06:30.579 key points in that book. Yeah, so one of my favorite 00:06:30.579 --> 00:06:32.279 principles, you know, king and non -violence 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:35.060 is grounded in these six principles. And the 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:37.360 second principle says that the beloved community 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:40.060 is the framework for the future. And, you know, 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:42.259 I work with a lot of young people and people 00:06:42.259 --> 00:06:44.439 of different generations, and the term beloved 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:46.579 community has become pretty popular over the 00:06:46.579 --> 00:06:49.259 last 10 years or so, which is a really beautiful 00:06:49.259 --> 00:06:52.060 thing. But I think when, you know, any sort of 00:06:52.060 --> 00:06:54.660 framing goes mainstream, sometimes we lose some 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:56.759 of the essence and things get lost in translation. 00:06:57.459 --> 00:06:59.439 And so, you know, I oftentimes talk to people 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.379 about, well, what do you think beloved community 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:03.240 is? Who's part of your beloved community? And 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:06.100 they say, oh, well, my family and my activist 00:07:06.100 --> 00:07:10.240 community, my spiritual community. And I think 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.459 it's important to celebrate community wherever 00:07:13.459 --> 00:07:15.860 we have it. We live in such an isolated world. 00:07:16.329 --> 00:07:19.670 And at the same time, I always want to challenge 00:07:19.670 --> 00:07:22.189 people to think a little bit deeper because when 00:07:22.189 --> 00:07:24.290 Dr. King was talking about beloved community 00:07:24.290 --> 00:07:26.910 and the theologian Josiah Royce coined the term 00:07:26.910 --> 00:07:29.430 beloved community, they weren't talking about 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:32.029 loving the people that are easy to love and loving 00:07:32.029 --> 00:07:34.589 the people that are already part of your close 00:07:34.589 --> 00:07:37.810 tight -knit community. The work of building beloved 00:07:37.810 --> 00:07:41.750 community is about learning to cultivate compassion 00:07:41.750 --> 00:07:45.250 and understanding, or at the very least, curiosity. 00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:48.579 in an acknowledgement of the dignity of the people 00:07:48.579 --> 00:07:51.660 that we don't enjoy hanging out with, right? 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:53.720 The people on the other side of the political 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:56.079 aisle, the people who may even be causing us 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.879 harm. And I think that's, you know, one of the 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.579 things about nonviolence is like, people think 00:08:01.579 --> 00:08:04.220 it's all about love and peace and it's easy and 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:08.839 beautiful and all that, but the work of purifying 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:14.079 our own heart of hatred and resentment And cultivating 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:17.259 that sort of universal goodwill for all life 00:08:17.259 --> 00:08:21.199 is actually a really difficult, challenging thing 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.699 to do. And so I think nonviolence, when understood 00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:28.019 in the proper context, is something that we really 00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:30.139 need to grapple with. It's not an easy thing 00:08:30.139 --> 00:08:35.080 to practice. It's so interesting, your title 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.830 of your book, you put together these Two words 00:08:39.830 --> 00:08:43.350 which people often don't consider together, healing, 00:08:43.809 --> 00:08:46.330 and you're talking about social healing, the 00:08:46.330 --> 00:08:50.250 healing of peoples, but resistance, which is 00:08:50.250 --> 00:08:54.750 standing up and saying no to structured injustice 00:08:54.750 --> 00:08:58.470 and violence and trying to stop it and transform 00:08:58.470 --> 00:09:01.610 it. Tell us about the combination of those words, 00:09:01.629 --> 00:09:03.850 if you wouldn't mind. Yeah, I mean, you know, 00:09:03.850 --> 00:09:06.149 I come from the lineage of one of the fiercest 00:09:06.149 --> 00:09:08.269 resisters this country has ever known, right? 00:09:08.330 --> 00:09:10.629 Dr. King was arrested almost 30 times throughout 00:09:10.629 --> 00:09:13.870 his life, and he was not scared to say no. He 00:09:13.870 --> 00:09:17.409 was not scared to resist and disrupt the kind 00:09:17.409 --> 00:09:20.710 of easy pattern of the status quo. And I think 00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:23.149 that's a really important part of the lineage 00:09:23.149 --> 00:09:25.429 of nonviolence that we really, particularly in 00:09:25.429 --> 00:09:28.629 these times, need to remember that nonviolence 00:09:28.629 --> 00:09:33.350 is It is about this unwavering faith that we 00:09:33.350 --> 00:09:35.990 are interdependent, that my liberation depends 00:09:35.990 --> 00:09:39.370 on the liberation of all people. But also in 00:09:39.370 --> 00:09:42.669 order to get to that place, that sometimes we 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:45.830 need the courage to stand up and to resist injustice, 00:09:45.950 --> 00:09:48.330 to resist violence, that when people are acting 00:09:48.330 --> 00:09:52.230 out in those ways, that they are not at their 00:09:52.230 --> 00:09:54.549 best, right? So part of the work that we need 00:09:54.549 --> 00:09:58.210 to do is to try to invite them to do better. 00:09:58.460 --> 00:10:02.580 And oftentimes that has to start with doing whatever 00:10:02.580 --> 00:10:05.759 we can to stop the immediate harm first. And 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:07.980 so I think that that that side of nonviolence, 00:10:08.059 --> 00:10:11.159 the lineage that has the courage to say no to 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:14.820 injustice is a really important part of the history 00:10:14.820 --> 00:10:19.940 of nonviolent movements. So here we are now with. 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.940 the Trump administration facing growing fascism, 00:10:24.139 --> 00:10:28.080 white supremacy, authoritarianism, and really 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:32.820 the collapse of democracy. But this has been 00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:36.539 decades, centuries in the making, and we've been 00:10:36.539 --> 00:10:41.320 heading here a long time. And we need resistance 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:44.519 and healing resistance and nonviolent action. 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:49.899 And, you know, I'm thinking, I'm hearing other 00:10:49.899 --> 00:10:53.240 longtime activists say they're expecting a lot 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:56.500 of people to rise up in the months and years 00:10:56.500 --> 00:11:00.059 ahead. I'm not sure about that. But if they do, 00:11:00.659 --> 00:11:03.139 if a lot of people start wanting to take public 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:06.320 action, you and I know it needs to be nonviolent 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.679 action. So can you tell us a little bit about 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:12.779 any thoughts you have about active nonviolent 00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:16.610 resistance against the systemic injustice? Which 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:18.970 we're seeing in a kind of a new way under the 00:11:18.970 --> 00:11:22.470 Trump administration or responses that you would 00:11:22.470 --> 00:11:25.610 encourage people to take Well, you know, I love 00:11:25.610 --> 00:11:27.830 the work of my friends Erica Chenoweth and Maria 00:11:27.830 --> 00:11:31.090 Stefan who did research for dating back like 00:11:31.090 --> 00:11:33.629 hundreds of years looking at social movements 00:11:33.629 --> 00:11:36.210 throughout the world and They showed that nonviolent 00:11:36.210 --> 00:11:38.409 movements are twice as effective as violent movements 00:11:38.409 --> 00:11:40.730 So I think it is important even from that kind 00:11:40.730 --> 00:11:44.129 of strategic lens to really value the importance 00:11:44.129 --> 00:11:47.200 of nonviolent discipline But I think it's also, 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:50.940 you know, as someone who does a lot of work around 00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:55.200 trauma, when I look at Donald Trump, I can so 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:59.539 easily see that he is a deeply, deeply traumatized 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:02.960 person who's operating less out of an ideology 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:06.519 and more out of this like brokenness in his heart. 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.299 And that's something that I can have compassion 00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:14.519 for. And it's also important to know that Me 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:17.679 having compassion for Donald Trump will probably 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.539 never change Donald Trump like Donald Trump is 00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:24.299 never gonna be aware that I sit and try to cultivate 00:12:24.299 --> 00:12:26.720 Understanding and compassion and empathy for 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.940 him. It's never gonna change him But it does 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:34.100 change me right like the work that I do To try 00:12:34.100 --> 00:12:37.379 to have universal goodwill for all human beings 00:12:37.379 --> 00:12:40.750 because I believe that all life is sacred does 00:12:40.750 --> 00:12:43.769 change and reorient the way that I walk through 00:12:43.769 --> 00:12:48.029 the world. And so I think it's one of the important 00:12:48.029 --> 00:12:50.190 things to keep in mind about building nonviolent 00:12:50.190 --> 00:12:53.750 movements is, yes, we need to move in a way that 00:12:53.750 --> 00:12:56.250 acknowledges the dignity of all people and has 00:12:56.250 --> 00:12:59.750 compassion for all people. But sometimes that 00:12:59.750 --> 00:13:02.990 work, that specific piece of cultivating compassion 00:13:02.990 --> 00:13:06.279 for all people is work that we do for ourselves 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:08.580 as much as we do it for the people that we're 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:11.179 cultivating compassion for. And I think if we 00:13:11.179 --> 00:13:13.480 look at it that way, then we can build powerful 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.620 movements because the more we do work to acknowledge 00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:20.620 the sanctity of all people, then we're also reminding 00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:23.279 ourselves that we ourselves are sacred, right? 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:25.860 That we ourselves matter, that we will never 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:28.919 be outside of the interwoven web of humanity. 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:32.600 And if even someone who is causing as much harm 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:35.759 as Donald Trump is causing, if even he is part 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.759 of beloved community, then I must also be part 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.919 of beloved community. And I think the importance 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.840 of us grounding ourselves in that truth that 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:48.960 I belong is really important, especially in these 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.639 times when there's so much violence and harm 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.139 and injustice and isolation, to really ground 00:13:54.139 --> 00:13:55.940 ourselves in that universal truth I think is 00:13:55.940 --> 00:13:59.240 really important. Wow, that's beautiful. Well, 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:01.720 that brings us to your great new book, Fierce 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.740 Vulnerability. And it seems to me that your main 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:09.279 point there is what we're talking about here 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:15.100 is that the real issue behind humanity's systemic 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:20.659 violence and justice, and I think just global 00:14:20.659 --> 00:14:25.059 insanity, if you look at... world hunger and 00:14:25.059 --> 00:14:27.460 nuclear weapons and catastrophic climate change 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:31.100 the real issue you're presenting is trauma even 00:14:31.100 --> 00:14:34.159 social or global trauma and that movement work 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:38.679 and our goal is healing and I Interpreted as 00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:41.519 social healing or global healing. That's why 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:45.240 you could see dr. King as a social healer So 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:47.679 tell us about the book and what are the points 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:51.419 you're trying to make? Yeah You know, one of 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:53.740 the key things that I'm exploring with fierce 00:14:53.740 --> 00:14:56.700 vulnerability is the idea that injustice is not 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.559 a political issue. Like when I think about political 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.919 issues, it makes me think about like partisan 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.539 debates and intellectual debates and power games 00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:09.759 and to see which side can gain more power than 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:11.580 the other side so we can pass this new piece 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:15.240 of legislation. But to me, injustice is less 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.940 a political issue. and much more a manifestation 00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:22.460 of collective trauma. I've worked with so many 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:24.759 incarcerated people in other communities who 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.240 have experienced, witnessed, and perpetrated 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.080 a lot of violence. And every time I slow down 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.039 enough to understand that individual person's 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:38.419 story, everything they do begins to make sense. 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:41.080 It doesn't condone what they do or what they 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.000 did, but it begins to make sense. And so much 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:48.909 of that is understanding how trauma impacts our 00:15:48.909 --> 00:15:51.450 ability to create healing for individuals as 00:15:51.450 --> 00:15:54.169 well as for the world, and how trauma is at the 00:15:54.169 --> 00:15:57.230 source of so much of the violence that we cause 00:15:57.230 --> 00:15:59.450 each other in our society. And so, you know, 00:15:59.529 --> 00:16:02.190 a lot of fierce vulnerability is about learning 00:16:02.190 --> 00:16:05.710 the lessons from the last 50 years of trauma 00:16:05.710 --> 00:16:08.870 healing work and neuroscience and really understanding 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:12.789 why we inflict violence on each other because 00:16:12.789 --> 00:16:15.549 we've experienced violence and how that impacts 00:16:15.549 --> 00:16:18.409 our brains and it impacts our ability to even 00:16:18.409 --> 00:16:21.549 think about things like interdependence and taking 00:16:21.549 --> 00:16:26.460 those lessons and kind of scaling them up and 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.419 infusing nonviolent movements with an understanding 00:16:29.419 --> 00:16:31.659 of how trauma works, both as individuals, but 00:16:31.659 --> 00:16:34.820 also as nation states and as a species. And really 00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:37.460 understanding, you know, another concept that 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.399 we play with in the book is that when you're 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.480 working with traumatized people, you know that 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.000 you can't just go to groups of traumatized people 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.960 and point our fingers and say, stop. Like that's 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.179 not, that's never going to be effective in helping 00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:54.169 them heal through their trauma. And I think in 00:16:54.169 --> 00:16:56.710 social movements, that's kind of how we oftentimes 00:16:56.710 --> 00:16:59.730 tend to try to create change is to go to people 00:16:59.730 --> 00:17:03.549 who are quote unquote being unjust and point 00:17:03.549 --> 00:17:05.950 our fingers and say, you need to stop doing that. 00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:10.009 Like movements oftentimes kind of move with this 00:17:10.009 --> 00:17:13.170 energy of we're here to shut things down. And 00:17:13.170 --> 00:17:16.309 I think if we can understand injustice as manifestations 00:17:16.309 --> 00:17:20.480 of trauma, then can we move with Energy not over 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.539 here to shut things down but we're actually here 00:17:22.539 --> 00:17:26.039 to open things up. I tactically we may need to 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:28.440 shut down highways and government meetings and 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.000 whatever it might be but can we move with the 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:33.980 spirit of we're actually here to open up important 00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:36.539 conversations about why this violence is happening 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.859 we're here to open up possibilities for healing 00:17:38.859 --> 00:17:42.380 and possibilities for connection. That's so powerful. 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.839 Thank you. So where did you get this phrase? 00:17:44.859 --> 00:17:47.220 And what does it mean to you? Fierce vulnerability. 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.019 And you're not just talking about individually, 00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:54.039 right, but movements acting through what you're 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.180 calling fierce vulnerability. And you're talking 00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:00.200 about that, I presume, through Kingian nonviolence. 00:18:00.859 --> 00:18:04.359 Yeah, so the word's fierce vulnerability. Ironically, 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.619 we don't remember who the first person was that 00:18:06.619 --> 00:18:08.579 said it, but I have a friend, Chris Moore Backman, 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.700 and he was involved in action years ago. Yeah, 00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:14.079 the author of The Gandhian Iceberg. Yeah, great 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:17.359 book. He was involved in an action years ago 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.500 in North Carolina where they were protesting 00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:21.559 the construction of the Atlantic coast pipeline 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:25.140 and a group of his friends shut down the governor's 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:28.069 mansion. And during the planning of that action, 00:18:28.210 --> 00:18:30.529 the words fierce vulnerability, kind of someone 00:18:30.529 --> 00:18:32.250 spoke it into the air and then it kind of took 00:18:32.250 --> 00:18:36.730 on a life of its own. And at that action, they 00:18:36.730 --> 00:18:38.690 asked themselves the night before the action, 00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:41.769 what are the qualities that we long to see in 00:18:41.769 --> 00:18:44.569 these action spaces? And so they talked about 00:18:44.569 --> 00:18:47.569 how they want to see connection and healing and 00:18:47.569 --> 00:18:49.950 love and all of these things. And so out of that 00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:53.109 conversation, they decided during the action 00:18:53.109 --> 00:18:55.569 that they weren't going to hold any signs. They 00:18:55.569 --> 00:18:57.750 weren't going to do any chance. And it's kind 00:18:57.750 --> 00:18:59.730 of like, well, if you're on a protest and you're 00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:01.589 not holding signs and you're not chanting, what 00:19:01.589 --> 00:19:04.630 do you do? And so what they did was they took 00:19:04.630 --> 00:19:07.390 over the governor's mansion. They sat in a circle 00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:09.390 in the lobby. And then when the governor who 00:19:09.390 --> 00:19:11.910 was out of town sent his staff down to go talk 00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:14.869 to these protesters, instead of yelling at them, 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:17.650 instead of giving them a list of demands, the 00:19:17.650 --> 00:19:20.730 protesters went around and each one talked very 00:19:20.730 --> 00:19:23.900 vulnerably about why they were there. and about 00:19:23.900 --> 00:19:26.039 the fears that they have about the future of 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.440 their children and the climate and what the pipeline 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.720 would mean for their communities, some of them 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.200 coming to tears expressing why they were there. 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:36.700 And Chris said that you could see tears welling 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:41.079 up in the eyes of the staff of the governor and 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.480 also even some of the police officers. And so, 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.420 you know, we got that idea that, you know, when 00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:51.359 I do trauma healing work, I know that when one 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:55.359 person can model vulnerability, it just opens 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.339 up possibilities for transformation that wasn't 00:19:58.339 --> 00:20:02.140 available before that. And so part of what we're 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:04.940 playing with is that when we go into these demonstrations 00:20:04.940 --> 00:20:06.839 and protests and engage in non -violent direct 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.240 action, instead of leading with here's what we 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.539 demand, or instead of leading with we are here 00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:15.640 because you're wrong, what if we led with the 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:19.230 message of we are scared? our hearts are breaking, 00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:21.430 our communities are being destroyed, we don't 00:20:21.430 --> 00:20:24.289 know what to do. Like, if we led with that kind 00:20:24.289 --> 00:20:27.490 of vulnerability, then could it open up possibilities 00:20:27.490 --> 00:20:29.589 that might not be present otherwise? We might 00:20:29.589 --> 00:20:32.349 still be shutting down the highway, but the message 00:20:32.349 --> 00:20:34.750 and the spirit that we are bringing to that space 00:20:34.750 --> 00:20:42.049 is different. Wow, that's so beautiful. So, are 00:20:42.049 --> 00:20:49.369 there strategies or key attitudes that you recommend 00:20:49.369 --> 00:20:53.789 that people cultivate if we're going to be organizing 00:20:53.789 --> 00:20:56.230 around a model of fierce vulnerability? Does 00:20:56.230 --> 00:20:58.630 that make sense in your book? And what do you 00:20:58.630 --> 00:21:02.130 mean by, in the subtitle, emerging through collapse? 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:07.470 Yeah, two very important questions. One is, yeah, 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:09.809 so a lot of fierce vulnerability, not just the 00:21:09.809 --> 00:21:11.230 book, but, you know, we've been building this 00:21:11.230 --> 00:21:12.730 thing called the Fierce Vulnerability Network, 00:21:12.809 --> 00:21:16.650 and we do workshops around it, is if we imagine 00:21:16.650 --> 00:21:20.390 ourselves modeling our own vulnerability as a 00:21:20.390 --> 00:21:22.430 way to touch into the vulnerability of other 00:21:22.430 --> 00:21:25.150 people to create transformation, what is the 00:21:25.150 --> 00:21:27.029 work that we need to do to prepare ourselves 00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:30.369 to play that kind of role? A lot of it is doing 00:21:30.369 --> 00:21:34.450 our own internal grief work so that when we're 00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:37.869 out in these actions, we can touch into that 00:21:37.869 --> 00:21:41.329 grief, but also we've processed that enough internally 00:21:41.329 --> 00:21:44.410 so we're not opening up like wide open wounds. 00:21:45.100 --> 00:21:49.039 A lot of the work that we do is encouraging our 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.960 colleagues and our movement allies to do our 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.460 own shadow work and our own trauma healing work 00:21:54.460 --> 00:21:57.539 so that when we're out there engaging in such 00:21:57.539 --> 00:22:01.180 a traumatizing world, it doesn't unconsciously 00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:03.660 trigger our own traumas. Because what happens 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:06.319 when our trauma is triggered is that our ability 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:08.420 to practice nonviolence, our ability to have 00:22:08.420 --> 00:22:11.200 empathy and curiosity and think about concepts 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:13.819 like interdependence, the part of our brain that 00:22:13.819 --> 00:22:16.779 is capable of doing those things is cut off. 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:20.119 So the more we can do our own healing, the more 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.000 we can be in these escalated moments of the history 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.720 of our species in a more grounded way. And so 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:30.319 in addition to learning how to shut down highways 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.960 and form blockades, learning how to breathe deeply, 00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:36.859 learning how to meditate or pray, learning how 00:22:36.859 --> 00:22:39.160 to sing songs together, these are all things 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:43.130 that help us prepare to model vulnerability in 00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:47.490 a fierce way. And emerging through collapse is 00:22:47.490 --> 00:22:50.329 just it was an acknowledgement of two things. 00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:55.630 One is that we are in a poly crisis, right? We 00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:59.130 are in the midst of climate catastrophe and pandemics 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:01.269 and the erosion of the democratic process and 00:23:01.269 --> 00:23:04.930 rising fascism. All of these things are happening 00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:07.569 around us. We are not crazy for feeling like 00:23:07.569 --> 00:23:10.559 the world is burning all around us. The world 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.599 is literally burning all around us. And I think 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.900 part of the work of fierce vulnerability is the 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:19.119 vulnerability to accept that reality as scary 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.279 as it might feel that we are on the precipice 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.680 of one of the biggest transition moments in the 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.960 history of our species, perhaps, and having the 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.160 fierceness not to collapse under the weight of 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:34.210 the gravity of that situation. And then, you 00:23:34.210 --> 00:23:37.849 know, kind of playing on the concept of emergence, 00:23:38.109 --> 00:23:41.069 like emerging through this collapse, because 00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:43.329 the changes that are happening in our world are 00:23:43.329 --> 00:23:47.430 so big that we are no longer the driving forces 00:23:47.430 --> 00:23:50.089 for change. The earth is the driving force for 00:23:50.089 --> 00:23:53.829 change. And there's no way for us to map out 00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:57.400 a work plan from here to liberation. Like we 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:01.160 have to rely on emergence, which is about centering 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.640 ourselves enough so that we can hear the subtle 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.880 voices of emergence of spirit of inspiration 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.880 and just sense and respond along the way. You 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:12.359 know, as an activist, I've always been taught 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.680 that we have to have this grand strategy that 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:16.960 figures out every contingency to get us from 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.599 here to victory. But I don't think we're at that 00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:24.259 place anymore. And so how can we really have 00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:27.789 faith that If we slow down enough and listen 00:24:27.789 --> 00:24:30.750 to our hearts, we will be guided into the actions 00:24:30.750 --> 00:24:34.329 that we need to take. That's lovely. I hear a 00:24:34.329 --> 00:24:41.230 lot of Buddhism in your approach to this Kingian 00:24:41.230 --> 00:24:45.470 nonviolence and your new framework of fierce 00:24:45.470 --> 00:24:47.849 vulnerability, and that's just so helpful and 00:24:47.849 --> 00:24:51.769 fresh. And it's taking us, as you write a lot 00:24:51.769 --> 00:24:54.410 about, and I want to ask you to speak even more 00:24:54.410 --> 00:24:58.589 to it, beyond us versus them, or right versus 00:24:58.589 --> 00:25:01.450 wrong. I guess it's this phrase non -duality 00:25:01.450 --> 00:25:06.210 as movement people, which would then lead to 00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:08.589 social healing, that we're all one, we're all 00:25:08.589 --> 00:25:11.130 in the same boat, that we got to get beyond judging. 00:25:11.450 --> 00:25:13.650 And that's the beauty of that story of North 00:25:13.650 --> 00:25:17.789 Carolina. I was learning that in Los Alamos, 00:25:17.950 --> 00:25:21.450 New Mexico, where we had a vigil for 20 years 00:25:21.450 --> 00:25:24.549 at the birthplace of the bomb, where every nuclear 00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:28.710 bomb is built. And we were grappling with that 00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:32.369 because Gandhi said, you need a symbol. So we 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:36.250 took up the book of Jonah, and every year hundreds 00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:38.250 of us went through the whole town and poured 00:25:38.250 --> 00:25:42.730 ashes on the ground and sat in sackcloth. The 00:25:42.730 --> 00:25:45.109 message was, we're not pointing figures. We're 00:25:45.109 --> 00:25:46.950 taking responsibility. We're all in this boat 00:25:46.950 --> 00:25:50.329 together. And of course, ashes and stuff. And 00:25:50.329 --> 00:25:54.190 we felt changed. But the whole state knew what 00:25:54.190 --> 00:25:57.809 we were saying. But it was trying to get beyond 00:25:57.809 --> 00:26:01.490 pointing fingers at the people, the millionaires 00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:05.410 and incredible, rich, powerful people who build 00:26:05.410 --> 00:26:10.109 nuclear weapons. and judging them because we 00:26:10.109 --> 00:26:12.569 need them. They're the only ones who can dismantle 00:26:12.569 --> 00:26:15.769 these darn things. That's one of the truths that 00:26:15.769 --> 00:26:19.529 I came to. So say more about, you know, what 00:26:19.529 --> 00:26:23.109 I hear you talking or about inviting us to is 00:26:23.109 --> 00:26:26.630 experimenting in ways to get over that hump, 00:26:27.109 --> 00:26:29.849 to plumb the depths of Dr. King's teaching about 00:26:29.849 --> 00:26:33.309 the interrelated connection between all of us, 00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:37.029 all things, and Mother Earth, and that we have 00:26:37.029 --> 00:26:39.890 to in effect, getting so much more serious about 00:26:39.890 --> 00:26:43.450 nonviolence. Yeah, definitely. So, you know, 00:26:43.529 --> 00:26:45.670 I'll start by sharing that, as some people may 00:26:45.670 --> 00:26:48.329 know, like I'm deeply grounded in Buddhist teachings. 00:26:49.569 --> 00:26:51.849 A Japanese Buddhist oracle, Nipponzami Ohoji, 00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:54.029 was my introduction to social change work when 00:26:54.029 --> 00:26:57.009 I was 17 years old, spent a year and a half living 00:26:57.009 --> 00:27:00.089 in their monasteries. And the first book on Buddhism 00:27:00.089 --> 00:27:03.200 I ever read, was a book by Thich Nhat Hanh called 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.619 Living Buddha, Living Christ, who was essentially 00:27:05.619 --> 00:27:08.759 saying that if you get down to the essence of 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:11.059 the teachings of the Buddha and Jesus, I was 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:13.420 also taught at a meditation retreat years ago 00:27:13.420 --> 00:27:15.940 that the Buddha didn't teach Buddhism. The Buddha 00:27:15.940 --> 00:27:18.980 taught universal truths that emerged in all the 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:21.759 world's traditions. And so as a Buddhist, when 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.980 I read Dr. King, I'm like, oh, Dr. King was a 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:27.599 Buddhist because he was also always talking about 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.890 interdependence. and this idea that we depend 00:27:30.890 --> 00:27:34.789 on each other, that my liberation is deeply interwoven 00:27:34.789 --> 00:27:37.029 with the liberation of all people. And so I think 00:27:37.029 --> 00:27:40.430 that is one of the essential teachings of nonviolence 00:27:40.430 --> 00:27:43.210 is this unwavering faith in interdependence. 00:27:44.109 --> 00:27:46.589 And one of the teachings that does come from 00:27:46.589 --> 00:27:48.089 the Buddhist tradition that is really helpful 00:27:48.089 --> 00:27:50.390 is the doctrine of two truths that teaches us 00:27:50.390 --> 00:27:53.990 that in our world, we're always living in two 00:27:53.990 --> 00:27:57.259 different levels of reality. One is what's called 00:27:57.259 --> 00:27:59.579 the relative level, which is the much more linear 00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:02.180 level. That's the things that we can see and 00:28:02.180 --> 00:28:05.220 touch and feel with our hands. But there's also 00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:08.400 this ultimate reality, which is much more mystical, 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.240 magical. Both realities exist at the same time. 00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:15.160 And so in the relative reality, there is a left 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.200 and a right and an up and a down. But in space, 00:28:18.380 --> 00:28:20.319 there's no such thing as left or right or up 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:22.400 and down. And both things are true. And so I 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:24.759 think You know, in the relative reality, Donald 00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:28.680 Trump has power and he is causing a lot of harm 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:32.019 and that needs to stop. But in the ultimate reality, 00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:35.779 which is also true, if people like Donald Trump 00:28:35.779 --> 00:28:39.259 and all of the people who support him are not 00:28:39.259 --> 00:28:41.859 liberated, then we will always be at odds and 00:28:41.859 --> 00:28:43.799 there will always be war and there will always 00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:47.319 be division. And so how can we continue to move 00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:49.460 in a way that acknowledges that, yeah, some people 00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:52.930 have power that they're wielding in abusive ways. 00:28:53.509 --> 00:28:56.390 But we actually need to free them from the delusion 00:28:56.390 --> 00:28:59.210 of their own sense of superiority and supremacy 00:28:59.210 --> 00:29:03.849 in order for all of us to heal. That's so beautiful. 00:29:04.329 --> 00:29:08.950 So the power of active nonviolent love. I'm thinking 00:29:08.950 --> 00:29:11.529 of Philip Berrigan, who used to say, he was a 00:29:11.529 --> 00:29:14.309 longtime activist and a friend of mine, and he 00:29:14.309 --> 00:29:17.900 used to say, towards the people at the Pentagon 00:29:17.900 --> 00:29:22.579 where we would go and vigil, we pray for them 00:29:22.579 --> 00:29:25.940 and we resist them. And no, that was his language 00:29:25.940 --> 00:29:32.539 from there, that talking about love, that we're 00:29:32.539 --> 00:29:35.960 really praying for folks, for their change of 00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:40.619 heart. Romero was huge about that. He was always 00:29:40.619 --> 00:29:44.259 talking positively about the Hunter and the Death 00:29:44.259 --> 00:29:48.170 Squad people. It's amazing to me if you really 00:29:48.170 --> 00:29:51.089 study him and saying we're praying for you and 00:29:51.089 --> 00:29:53.509 you need to be converted We call you to put the 00:29:53.509 --> 00:29:56.049 guns down and that's what Phil was saying and 00:29:56.049 --> 00:29:58.509 I don't know that we do that enough here that 00:29:58.509 --> 00:30:02.950 we are publicly loving and praying for conversion 00:30:02.950 --> 00:30:06.029 and disarmament and transformation among all 00:30:06.029 --> 00:30:09.289 people including ourselves you're saying and 00:30:09.289 --> 00:30:13.230 and then that takes a public form of resistance 00:30:13.230 --> 00:30:16.569 That's right. Do you agree with that? Yeah, a 00:30:16.569 --> 00:30:18.789 hundred percent, a hundred percent. And you know, 00:30:18.910 --> 00:30:21.009 Dr. King, there's a famous story from the civil 00:30:21.009 --> 00:30:23.150 rights era where they were protesting in Selma, 00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:26.029 Alabama. And the sheriff in Selma at the time, 00:30:26.049 --> 00:30:28.250 who was one of the more violent sheriffs in the 00:30:28.250 --> 00:30:30.369 South that they had to face, there was a time 00:30:30.369 --> 00:30:32.390 when he got sick with the flu or something, I'm 00:30:32.390 --> 00:30:35.029 not sure. And one of the lead organizers at the 00:30:35.029 --> 00:30:37.630 time, James Bevel, took all of the movement activists 00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:40.569 and they held a prayer vigil outside of his house. 00:30:40.859 --> 00:30:43.680 praying for his wellness, you know, and doing 00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:45.859 things like that, that like, yes, we are going 00:30:45.859 --> 00:30:49.220 to resist you in every way we can, and we heard 00:30:49.220 --> 00:30:51.000 you're sick and we hope you're feeling better 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.119 because you are still our brother, you are still 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:55.559 a member of this beloved community. I think that 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.160 sort of non -dual truth, again, is really important 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.500 for us to hold. That's beautiful. Tell me about 00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:04.619 your work in prisons. What have you been doing 00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:08.069 there, teaching nonviolence? Yeah. Are you still 00:31:08.069 --> 00:31:09.650 doing that? Teaching nonviolence and being taught 00:31:09.650 --> 00:31:12.529 nonviolence. These people, incarcerated people 00:31:12.529 --> 00:31:14.589 are some of the most dedicated peace activists 00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:17.650 I have ever met in my entire life because they 00:31:17.650 --> 00:31:20.470 know violence. They understand the dynamic of 00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:22.549 violence. They know where violence has brought 00:31:22.549 --> 00:31:25.569 them. And they know, so many of them come from 00:31:25.569 --> 00:31:27.670 very violent neighborhoods and they know what 00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:29.670 their communities need more than anything else. 00:31:30.089 --> 00:31:32.950 And I always say that I didn't know what words 00:31:32.950 --> 00:31:35.890 like accountability meant until I met these incarcerated 00:31:35.890 --> 00:31:39.509 people who have been doing so much incredible 00:31:39.509 --> 00:31:42.130 healing and incredible work trying to hold themselves 00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:46.650 accountable and trying to be an agent of change 00:31:46.650 --> 00:31:49.210 and to try to create more of a culture of peace 00:31:49.210 --> 00:31:51.690 both in their own hearts and the prisons, reaching 00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:54.430 out to communities that they have harmed. Yeah, 00:31:54.430 --> 00:31:56.890 so I consider the incarcerated people that I 00:31:56.890 --> 00:31:58.549 work with to be some of my greatest teachers. 00:31:58.809 --> 00:32:01.730 That's wonderful. Well, we're about out of time. 00:32:01.890 --> 00:32:05.890 I wonder where can people get in touch with you 00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:09.630 or get your new book, Fierce Vulnerability? Yeah. 00:32:10.190 --> 00:32:12.269 So, folks can find out about my work on my website, 00:32:12.490 --> 00:32:16.490 kazuhaga .com. It's K -A -Z -U -H -A -G -A. And 00:32:16.490 --> 00:32:19.250 you can buy the book there. It's linked to my 00:32:19.250 --> 00:32:21.349 publisher, Parallax Press, which is a non -profit 00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:23.630 Buddhist publisher founded by Thich Nhat Hanh. 00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:26.259 So, definitely encourage people. to buy straight 00:32:26.259 --> 00:32:28.500 from them as opposed to some of the other large 00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:31.460 online retailers that I will not name. Before 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:33.880 we end, is there any last thing that you'd like 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:37.660 to share with our listeners? Yeah, you know, 00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:41.740 there's a lot of crises happening in our world 00:32:41.740 --> 00:32:44.599 today, particularly around climate. It's probably 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.799 the biggest existential threat that we have faced 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:51.019 as a species. And I continue to think that as 00:32:51.019 --> 00:32:53.940 the earth is going through these massive transformations, 00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:58.109 that it's also opening up huge opportunities 00:32:58.109 --> 00:33:01.309 for us to make transformative change. Every time 00:33:01.309 --> 00:33:03.970 there's a crisis, there's a huge opportunity. 00:33:04.609 --> 00:33:08.710 And so to look at the Earth as our ally, the 00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:12.970 Earth is giving us so many opportunities to create 00:33:12.970 --> 00:33:15.910 transformative change at a level that may not 00:33:15.910 --> 00:33:19.380 have been unimaginable before. You know, there's 00:33:19.380 --> 00:33:23.119 a lot of opportunities for us coming up to widen 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:26.039 the window what we think is politically feasible. 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:29.680 So, you know, listen to the earth and be with 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:31.460 the earth and to take advantage of everything 00:33:31.460 --> 00:33:34.900 that it's offering us. Well, thank you so much, 00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:37.579 Kazu Haga, for speaking with me today. It's been 00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:40.299 a blessing. Thank you, friends, for listening 00:33:40.299 --> 00:33:42.579 to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear 00:33:42.579 --> 00:33:45.839 more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.240 at BeatitudesCenter .org. And please consider 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.140 offering a donation to support this free work. 00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:56.359 And if you can, please leave some positive feedback. 00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:01.740 or a review at NCR or Apple or Spotify or whatever 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:05.279 platform you use. So, may the God of peace bless 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.960 everyone and keep on following the nonviolent 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:10.840 Jesus and see you next time. Thanks so much, 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:11.199 everyone.