Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Martha Hennessy, longtime peace
activist, member of the New York City Catholic
Worker, and granddaughter of Dorothy Day, the
founder of the Catholic Worker. This podcast
is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing peace and nonviolence and working
for a more just, more nonviolent world. So I
always like to begin with a little prayer. So
I invite everyone listening to just take a deep
breath wherever you are and just relax. And together,
let's recenter ourselves and enter into the presence
of the God of peace who loves you infinitely
and personally. And let's welcome the nonviolent
Jesus here into our hearts and our circle and
just take a moment to ask for whatever graces
and blessings you need to follow Jesus on the
path of nonviolence. God of peace, thank you
for all the many blessings of life and love and
peace that you give us. Be with us now as we
reflect together on your call to live and practice
gospel nonviolence, to do our part to help end
war and poverty, racism and greed, injustice
and nuclear weapons, and all violence and destruction,
that we might be faithful followers of the nonviolent
Jesus. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen
us, and send us forth that we might be your beatitude
people of universal love, compassion, and peace,
your holy peacemakers, your beloved sons and
daughters. We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus'
name. Amen. Well, it's my great pleasure to welcome
today my friend Martha Hennessy, as I said, a
longtime peace activist, member of the New York
City Catholic Worker, and granddaughter of Dorothy
Day, the founder of the Catholic Worker Movement.
Martha's coming to us live from her... family
farm in Vermont, and she volunteers part -time
in New York City at the Mary House Catholic Worker,
but speaks regularly on issues of war and poverty,
nuclear weapons, and the works of mercy. She's
traveled to Russia, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Egypt,
Afghanistan, and Korea to witness for peace,
and she recently served prison time for protesting
nuclear weapons as part of the Kings Bay Plowshares.
Martha Hennessey, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus
podcast. Thanks for joining me. Oh, thanks so
much for having me, John. Well, I want to begin
by reading... A famous statement by your grandmother,
the great Dorothy Day. I think everyone knows
who Dorothy Day was, founder of the Catholic
Worker in the early 1930s. And so she launched
the newspaper, the Catholic Worker, then the
House of Hospitality Movement. And there's hundreds
today around the country and the world where
people serve but also live with the poor. But
she was also... Just one of the greatest Christians
in history because she said no to every single
war. And I was saying to Martha, you know, our
friend Robert Ellsberg has published this great
new collection of your grandmother's writings,
Dorothy Day's spiritual writings. And in it,
and I wrote a blurb about it, Robert includes
her statement at the break of World War II. And
it's just one of the most shocking things. In
all of Christian history, how's that for a buildup?
And I want you to comment on it. I'm going to
read a little bit of it and just say whatever
you think. What's so amazing to me is the whole
country, after the U .S. attack from Japan on
Pearl Harbor, and the U .S. is now involved in
World War II against the Nazis. Germany, but
also Japan, and now also Italy. Everybody's for
war. All Christians are mobilized for war in
the U .S. and around the world. And pretty much
this lone voice, and maybe the only voice in
the Catholic Church, against the war. And she's
saying, well, we're followers of the nonviolent
Jesus. We can't support the war. And so this
was the editorial that was published on January
1st, 1942 in the Catholic Worker. It was an open
letter she wrote. And people can look it up.
It's in a lot of the Dorothy Day writings books.
But here's a couple of paragraphs. And I invite
you to reflect with us and what you think about
this, because I think it's as needed today as
ever. We will print the words of Christ who is
with us always, even to the end of the world.
Quote, love your enemies, do good to those who
hate you, and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven
who makes God's Son rise on the good and the
bad and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
We are still pacifists. Our manifesto is the
Sermon on the Mount. That's the great line. Our
manifesto is the Sermon on the Mount, which means
we will still try to be peacemakers. Speaking
for many who are conscientious objectors, we
will not participate in armed warfare or in making
weapons or by buying government bonds to prosecute
the war or in urging others in these war -making
efforts. And she goes on at length like that.
Martha Hennessy, I think it's just one of the
greatest moments in Christian history. And that
Dorothy Day just stood up and said, hey, we'd
like to kill like everybody, but we're followers
of Jesus. And so our manifesto is the Sermon
on the Mount. What do you think, Martha? Oh,
John, thank you so much for picking out that
reading. It's really, really powerful. Dorothy
always referred to Peter as the founder of the
movement. So tell us who Peter was so everybody
knows. But you and I will say, I'm going to say
Dorothy. She was being nonviolent. Tell us about
Peter, though, just for the record. Well, Peter
was the one who really put Dorothy on the trajectory
of starting a newspaper and the houses of hospitality.
You know, she was five years into her conversion
and she hadn't. yet figured out what her role
was, what her vocation was with her background
and her skills as a writer. So Peter is the one
who helped launch the movement. Peter Morin.
Peter Morin. Yeah, yeah. So the Sermon on the
Mount, being our Christian manifesto, you know,
the Catholic worker was always asked, you know,
where do you stand with this war, this current
war? her answer would be the same each time.
You know, she spoke about the Spanish Civil War
being unnecessary and unjust, and she felt that
that was true for every war. This attitude of,
you know, what's to save Christianity? What's
to save civilization and democracy? And war will
not save any of these values that we have. And
she made it very clear that gearing ourselves
up for war making, death dealing, bombers. I'm
looking at her June 1940 write up on our stand
on World War II. And, you know, we need the money
to heal and rebuild a shattered world. And this
is so true today even. But it is very, very clear
what Jesus tells us to do. And it's very clear
that Dorothy understood that and took it to heart.
And another thing she said in her 1940 write
-up, there are many who consider that we're approaching
the end of the world. But what are 2 ,000 years
in the history of the world? We are still in
the beginnings of Christianity. It is true that
we are at the end of an era, and we are probably
seeing the death throes of capitalism. That was
written in 1940, and here we're still witnessing
the thrashing of empire and the death knell of
capitalism. So she gave us these words. She gave
us this guidance. She stood in a place that much
of the U .S. Catholic Church was not standing
in, and she suffered from taking that true stand.
as a Christian, as a disciple of Christ in the
20th century. And as, John, you point out, a
very important Catholic in the history of the
U .S., I think that she helped define the Church
in its trueness in her time with her witness.
And so we have to be ever so grateful. for what
she did and what she said and what she wrote,
her witness, and we're still challenged today
to rise up to that, to oppose war at any cost,
no matter what. This business of just war theory,
Pope Francis is now moving beyond that because
with modern -day weapons, there's no such thing
as a just war because more civilians and innocents
get killed. You know, with each generation of
war making, that number increases. And now we're
witnessing Gaza with thousands upon thousands
of casualties of civilians. So this is what war
leads us to. You know, you talked about the cost,
and it's hard for us to grasp right now that
she publishes this. You know, she went from just
a little tiny newspaper in a couple of months.
100 ,000 readers in 1933. It's incredible with
just word of mouth. And, you know, it was so
long ago. And this is published and everybody
cancels their subscription. And a lot of Catholic
worker houses closed. People left her. How dare
you be against the war? And then if you study
like Paul Eli's great book, I think he makes
it clearest, her legacy. As you said, she was
against every single war. And our friend Daniel
Berrigan was always in awe of her. Because we
never had that before. We never had a priest
against war. The U .S. Bishops' Conference was
founded in 1919 for the sole purpose of supporting
the troops and supporting war. And it's still
that way today. It's in their mission. And most
bishops have done this. I kind of think sometimes,
Martha, that Dorothy was God's instrument to
save the Catholic Church in the world, like St.
Francis was. Seriously. I know. And she's a lone
woman standing up to all these churchmen saying,
hey, sorry, no. Yeah. Well, a lot of the houses
closed, not simply in protest of what Dorothy
said about the war. but that they were forced
to go join in the effort. So the pervasiveness
of our war -making culture is to such an extent
that, you know, thank God we have people in history
like Dorothy who recognized what it was, war
for what it was. And, you know, it is human nature
to try and do whatever you need to do to save
your own hide. Make yourself comfortable. And
she wouldn't do that. She walked the way of Jesus.
Yeah, you know, I think of my friend Mary Lou
Kalnacki, who wrote an essay shortly after Dorothy
Day died in the early 80s. She was one of the
early leaders of Pax Christi. And she said, I
used to think that Dorothy was so great because
she took in the homeless and lived with them.
and really began to live out Matthew 25. And
I thought she was great because she said no to
war and then no to nuclear weapons. And she did
civil disobedience. And I thought she was great
because she was such a brilliant writer. And
in the end, she has this great line that Dorothy
was great because she was faithful to this as
a way of life in season and out, no matter what
the country or the church was saying. She stayed
faithful to the Sermon on the Mount, and she
lived long. And I thought that was a brilliant
insight that Dorothy stayed the course, and it's
very easy to give up, and she didn't. She never
did. I wonder if you could reflect on that for
a moment, about her fidelity and what it might
mean for you. And since I got you, Martha, and
I don't know if I've ever even asked you this,
can you tell us what it was like, what she was
like, your grandmother? Oh, yeah, this fidelity.
Well, because she was a mystic, because she was
touched by God. She was, I think, an exceptional
person, but I would describe her as an ordinary
grandmother. I mean, we all understood when each
of us reached a certain age that, you know, she
wasn't ordinary. She was extraordinary, and we
understood that she belonged to the world. But
to grow up with a grandmother like that, you
spend the rest of your life trying to understand
what she was about. I didn't really fully grasp.
It took me a lifetime to fully grasp her capacity,
her fidelity, her focus. She was very gentle.
She was very strong. My older siblings probably
got more. from her than I did. She was too tired
by the time I was having a child out of wedlock.
But the example that she gave us and that Tamar,
my mother, gave us was one of be present and
practice loving kindness. You know, that's our
humanity. If we can at least grasp and access
Those precepts of we're here to love one another,
then so many beautiful things can follow. Oh,
that's wonderful. Thank you. I found this line
in the diaries that were published a few years
ago in 1967. And it was the height of the civil
rights movement and Dr. King and Vietnam. So,
you know, Dorothy wrote, she was a phenomenal
writer, and her autobiography, The Long Loneliness,
is one of the great spiritual classics of all
time. But I always ponder that, you know, that
era of our great figures, Dorothy and Thomas
Merton and our friend Daniel Berrigan, much less
Gandhi or Dr. King, never wrote about Jesus.
much less even really books on nonviolence. And
Dorothy didn't write about it that much, but
I found this line, nonviolence is the all -important
virtue to be nourished and studied and cultivated.
And that was very helpful to me. And there are
others like it, which she says that. I wonder
if you could reflect on Dorothy's teachings of
nonviolence. So, for example, when I was in prison
with Phil Berrigan, he said, Oh, she was at Gandhi
level because she wasn't just teaching it and
writing about it, but she was modeling it by
taking the homeless in and living with them and
getting arrested and going to prison and keeping
it small and trusting in God. It was a very,
very hard life. Any thoughts on Dorothy as a
real teacher and model of nonviolence and therefore
Christianity in the Sermon on the Mount? Well,
her willingness to give her will over to God.
Why do you say that? I mean, is that something
that you see in her writings and experience?
That's very powerful that you say that. Well,
I saw it in what happened to my mother's parents.
You know, at the family level, this practice
of nonviolence really does begin with each of
us in our own hearts. And she gave up a life
that she so dearly wanted. You know, my mother
suffered. With your grandfather, Foster. Yeah,
losing her father as a child to this work. So
Dorothy had a very personal experience initially,
which I do believe prepared her to give her will
over. I think that my grandfather recognized
something that he had to let go of and let her
go do the work that she needed to do. And, you
know, that level of commitment and understanding
and willingness to trust in God is what, you
know, gave her the stamina and the foundation
to continue with nearly 50 years of the Catholic
Worker Movement. Well, thank you, Martha, for
that beautiful answer. So Dorothy Day is on track
to be beatified soon and probably canonized soon.
And there's various reflections within the Catholic
Worker Movement and the family, I'm sure. I'm
all for it, just to help get her message of peacemaking
in the gospel far and wide. I just wonder if
you wanted to reflect briefly on any of your
thoughts about her legacy and also what that
might mean, what your thought on it is these
days. Oh, the U .S. Church desperately needs
her as a saint. You know, a laywoman, a mother,
a grandmother, she has so much to give to the
Church, her gifts, and we desperately need. The
example that she set for us in these times, in
this setting, this situation, this culture, and
Pope Francis recognizes her as a saint and the
necessity of bringing her into the circle of
saints as a way of holding up an example of how
to live one's life with heroic virtue. how to
teach gospel nonviolence no matter what time
and place we are in. So I am very supportive
of her cause because I think the United States
Catholic Church is, you know, in the heart of
the empire, in the belly of the beast. Someone
like Dorothy, who came from, you know, a very
WASP background. My forebearers, you know, helped
build this country, which is an empire. But she
held up an alternative, you know, the care of
the poor, the defense of the workers. All of
that, I believe, fits in perfectly well with
the Catholic social teachings. We need a saint
like her for our times. And of course, her writings,
I believe she's a doctor of the church based
on her writings. And so I'm really praying hard
that this, I wish she could be fast -tracked
like John Paul II was fast -tracked. Me too.
That would be great. So I just think this whole
cloud of witnesses. It is so critical to all
of us, and she relied on the saints to guide
her, too. So it's really critical that this move
forward, and I know that there is opposition
to her cause based on the betrayal of Christ,
as far as I'm concerned. So we're talking in
Lent 2025, and just a few days ago or weeks ago,
you and Ash Wednesday were in New York City.
for an Ash Wednesday service and peace vigil
at the U .S. Mission to the United Nations, speaking
out outside of the treaty conference, calling
for the ban on nuclear weapons. And my friend
Archbishop John Wester of New Mexico was there
with you. And some people were arrested. Tell
us about that. That's a good way to spend Ash
Wednesday, Martha. And your grandmother would
be very proud of you. Well, it was really wonderful
to have Archbishop Wester come and administer
the ashes to our foreheads. And then we walked
from the Isaiah Wall up to the U .S. Mission
to the U .N. And we're begging our country to
sign the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear
Weapons. That was put together in 2017. Archbishop
Wester has written a pastoral. I forget what
year that came out. You would know, John, because
you helped work on that. And, you know, we have
to put our bodies where our mouths are. And we
put our banner, we started to walk, we wanted
to picket, like old Catholic worker style. And
we had a very long banner that, you know, is
telling the United States to please sign on to
this treaty and abolish nuclear weapons. So we
walked across First Avenue and then we were going
to do a circle, you know, in front of the U .N.
And the police said, no, you can't walk on this
sidewalk. And anyhow, they ended up pushing us
into the street. And so once we were on the crosswalk
with our sign that was big enough to block First
Avenue, we stopped. We stopped crossing the street
and we, you know, stopped the traffic and were
cleaned up pretty quickly. But what more can
we do? Were you arrested? Yes, yes. And what
did your banner say? Sign the treaty? Yes, U
.S., United States, I can't remember. I'm always
holding these signs and then I can never remember
what they say. But yes, we were arrested for
disorderly conduct. But I did hear someone say
after this action that... Qatar asked Israel
to sign the TPNW. So we would like to think that
that week at the UN and the U .S. mission to
the UN has had an effect on various leaders of
countries. And the word is out. We need to get
rid of these nuclear weapons. And, you know,
I think Russia has wanted to get rid of these
nuclear weapons from the very beginning. I lay
the blame for the situation we're in today directly
at the feet of the United States. Yeah. A couple
of years ago, I started working with a Catholic
worker and basically joined a local community
in Central California once a week. And we distribute
food to hundreds and hundreds of farm worker
families every week. And I mean... tons and tons
and tons of food. It's usually mothers and kids
show up because the fathers are out working in
the field. And it's just life changing. I don't
do anything. I'm in charge of usually giving
out the cereal and all the other friends just
make fun of me. You are working at the mother
house, Mary House Catholic Worker. where your
grandmother lived and actually where she died
in 1980. Tell us about Mary House these days,
what it's like and what you've been doing. I
was there last year, but tell us, tell everybody
about life at Mary House. Well, life in community
and life at a house of hospitality requires...
similar skills to what I had as a mother and
a wife. I've been volunteering there part -time
for about 15 years now. And the house is special.
The house has an amazing spirit to it. I mean,
there's a lot of hardship with working, you know,
with the poor and with those who come into community.
There's a lot of mental illness, both with guests
and workers. We all come with need to the House
of Hospitality. But for me, it's been a real
exercise. I don't feel like I would have a leg
to stand on to even begin to speak about Dorothy
or the movement if I did not participate in that
aspect of the work. I love doing it. You know,
I'm a Martha. I love to cook and clean. be with
folks, growing up in a big family, growing up
around the Catholic worker. But there are challenges
in terms of decision -making and how we treat
each other and how to keep the house clean. The
house is old. It's very run -down. But I don't
know. It's just such a spiritual exercise for
me. It makes me, you know, when I work in the
clothing room or on the soup line, This kind
of work makes me confront my own internal imperialistic
urges. So I would recommend anyone and everyone
who cares about peace and justice to practice
the works of mercy at some point in their lives
to really gain a taste for what it's about. Thank
you. So you took a big risk a couple of years
ago and crossed a line with the Kings Bay Plowshares
in a nuclear disarmament action and went to prison.
We don't have much time. Can you just say a little
bit about that for people who don't know what
you did and what your message was? Well, Phil
and Dan Berrigan started the Plowshares movement.
The first action occurred three months before
Dorothy died. in 1980. We're coming up on the
seventh anniversary of our action. We chose April
4th, the day that King was murdered by the state,
the 50th anniversary of his assassination. And
we chose King's Bay that houses the Trident nuclear
subs that can strike anywhere on the planet within
15 minutes, enough firepower to destroy the world
four times over with the U .S. arsenal. We thought
that was insane, and so we went into the base
and we did the usual traditional actions of pouring
our own blood to show that we do not want to
shed innocent blood. Like Jesus, we are to sacrifice
ourselves for our brothers and sisters, and also
the sacramental, nonviolent action of hammering.
on the weapons system symbolically. You know,
based on Isaiah 2 -4, we need to beat our swords
into plowshares. And I served a 10 -month sentence.
And again, this is an exercise of self -disarmament.
And it's an exercise of pointing out that these
nuclear weapons are deadly and insane and illegal
and immoral. And so we go on to the base to preach,
you know, get a different job. This is not a
decent livelihood. And then, of course, we go
into the federal courts to point out that it's
on paper, that this is illegal. And, of course,
we get suppressed every time. And then, of course,
the third part of the ministry is helping the
women in the prisons. You know, our prisons are
full of the most vulnerable. members of society,
and we scapegoat them. So nuclear abolition and
prison abolition really go hand in hand in terms
of being nonviolent in our culture. Thank you.
Thank you, Martha. Well, our time is coming to
an end. And again, another huge, ridiculous question.
Any final thoughts under this new Trump administration
and all that we're witnessing of the rise, even
greater rise of fascism, authoritarianism, oligarchy,
and therefore racism and war making and the collective
insanity about, especially from Dorothy's witness
and the Catholic worker witness, suggestions
for people? about steps to go forward to live
out the Sermon on the Mount as a manifesto and
to take any public actions. What would you recommend
to people who are looking for things to do to
respond? Well, she pointed out that the problems
that we face are a result of empire and that
the solutions will never come from the state.
So we each have to do our own little part. in
terms of finding out in our own neighborhoods
what we can do to practice the works of mercy,
to care for the most vulnerable, to love our
neighbors as ourselves. And, you know, not everyone
can do a plowshares action. Not everyone can
run a house of hospitality or write a newspaper.
But to find one's niche, I think the Catholic
Worker Movement is... beautifully integrated
and sound model to participate in, to create
a new world from the shell of the old world,
as Peter Morin would say, and to make a society
in which it's easier to be good. But our current
situation is inevitable. I mean, that's the condition
of advanced capitalism. practice a war economy
for decades, and this is where we will end up.
Oligarchy, plutocracy, you know, white supremacy,
Martin Luther King Jr. named it all, the triple
evils of racism, militarism, and materialism.
And so this is the inevitable outcome of practicing
this capitalism for 500 years now. Well, I really
want to thank you, Martha. Is there any last
word you'd like to offer our listeners? Don't
forget to have fun and retain hope. Okay. Good
last piece of advice. Thank you so much for being
with me, Martha. And I hope everybody enjoyed
listening to Martha Hennessey. Thank you, friends,
for listening to the nonviolent Jesus. podcast.
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nonviolent Jesus and see you all next time.