WEBVTT 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:18.440 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:21.320 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:24.460 with my friend Martha Hennessy, longtime peace 00:00:24.460 --> 00:00:27.000 activist, member of the New York City Catholic 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:30.379 Worker, and granddaughter of Dorothy Day, the 00:00:30.379 --> 00:00:33.100 founder of the Catholic Worker. This podcast 00:00:33.100 --> 00:00:38.399 is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:40.439 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:43.899 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:43.899 --> 00:00:46.759 practicing peace and nonviolence and working 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.159 for a more just, more nonviolent world. So I 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.700 always like to begin with a little prayer. So 00:00:52.700 --> 00:00:55.679 I invite everyone listening to just take a deep 00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:00.740 breath wherever you are and just relax. And together, 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.859 let's recenter ourselves and enter into the presence 00:01:04.859 --> 00:01:07.620 of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:01:07.620 --> 00:01:12.659 and personally. And let's welcome the nonviolent 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:15.640 Jesus here into our hearts and our circle and 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.780 just take a moment to ask for whatever graces 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:21.840 and blessings you need to follow Jesus on the 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:31.340 path of nonviolence. God of peace, thank you 00:01:31.340 --> 00:01:34.200 for all the many blessings of life and love and 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:38.060 peace that you give us. Be with us now as we 00:01:38.060 --> 00:01:42.000 reflect together on your call to live and practice 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.900 gospel nonviolence, to do our part to help end 00:01:45.900 --> 00:01:49.799 war and poverty, racism and greed, injustice 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.959 and nuclear weapons, and all violence and destruction, 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:59.239 that we might be faithful followers of the nonviolent 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:03.400 Jesus. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:07.799 us, and send us forth that we might be your beatitude 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:10.680 people of universal love, compassion, and peace, 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.099 your holy peacemakers, your beloved sons and 00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:17.300 daughters. We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus' 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:21.120 name. Amen. Well, it's my great pleasure to welcome 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.120 today my friend Martha Hennessy, as I said, a 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:26.919 longtime peace activist, member of the New York 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:29.900 City Catholic Worker, and granddaughter of Dorothy 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:31.759 Day, the founder of the Catholic Worker Movement. 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:35.860 Martha's coming to us live from her... family 00:02:35.860 --> 00:02:39.460 farm in Vermont, and she volunteers part -time 00:02:39.460 --> 00:02:41.860 in New York City at the Mary House Catholic Worker, 00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:45.120 but speaks regularly on issues of war and poverty, 00:02:45.419 --> 00:02:48.620 nuclear weapons, and the works of mercy. She's 00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:53.340 traveled to Russia, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Egypt, 00:02:53.620 --> 00:02:57.919 Afghanistan, and Korea to witness for peace, 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.370 and she recently served prison time for protesting 00:03:02.370 --> 00:03:05.469 nuclear weapons as part of the Kings Bay Plowshares. 00:03:06.250 --> 00:03:08.750 Martha Hennessey, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:03:08.750 --> 00:03:12.750 podcast. Thanks for joining me. Oh, thanks so 00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:16.009 much for having me, John. Well, I want to begin 00:03:16.009 --> 00:03:20.509 by reading... A famous statement by your grandmother, 00:03:20.789 --> 00:03:23.389 the great Dorothy Day. I think everyone knows 00:03:23.389 --> 00:03:27.069 who Dorothy Day was, founder of the Catholic 00:03:27.069 --> 00:03:30.870 Worker in the early 1930s. And so she launched 00:03:30.870 --> 00:03:33.449 the newspaper, the Catholic Worker, then the 00:03:33.449 --> 00:03:35.789 House of Hospitality Movement. And there's hundreds 00:03:35.789 --> 00:03:38.490 today around the country and the world where 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:41.409 people serve but also live with the poor. But 00:03:41.409 --> 00:03:45.370 she was also... Just one of the greatest Christians 00:03:45.370 --> 00:03:49.610 in history because she said no to every single 00:03:49.610 --> 00:03:54.349 war. And I was saying to Martha, you know, our 00:03:54.349 --> 00:03:57.009 friend Robert Ellsberg has published this great 00:03:57.009 --> 00:03:59.189 new collection of your grandmother's writings, 00:03:59.310 --> 00:04:02.349 Dorothy Day's spiritual writings. And in it, 00:04:02.349 --> 00:04:04.949 and I wrote a blurb about it, Robert includes 00:04:04.949 --> 00:04:10.009 her statement at the break of World War II. And 00:04:10.009 --> 00:04:12.900 it's just one of the most shocking things. In 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:15.539 all of Christian history, how's that for a buildup? 00:04:15.539 --> 00:04:17.220 And I want you to comment on it. I'm going to 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:19.139 read a little bit of it and just say whatever 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:24.980 you think. What's so amazing to me is the whole 00:04:24.980 --> 00:04:29.879 country, after the U .S. attack from Japan on 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.819 Pearl Harbor, and the U .S. is now involved in 00:04:33.819 --> 00:04:39.300 World War II against the Nazis. Germany, but 00:04:39.300 --> 00:04:43.000 also Japan, and now also Italy. Everybody's for 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:46.519 war. All Christians are mobilized for war in 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:50.139 the U .S. and around the world. And pretty much 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:54.199 this lone voice, and maybe the only voice in 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:58.259 the Catholic Church, against the war. And she's 00:04:58.259 --> 00:05:00.689 saying, well, we're followers of the nonviolent 00:05:00.689 --> 00:05:03.389 Jesus. We can't support the war. And so this 00:05:03.389 --> 00:05:06.529 was the editorial that was published on January 00:05:06.529 --> 00:05:09.529 1st, 1942 in the Catholic Worker. It was an open 00:05:09.529 --> 00:05:12.350 letter she wrote. And people can look it up. 00:05:12.389 --> 00:05:14.569 It's in a lot of the Dorothy Day writings books. 00:05:14.810 --> 00:05:18.509 But here's a couple of paragraphs. And I invite 00:05:18.509 --> 00:05:21.110 you to reflect with us and what you think about 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:24.129 this, because I think it's as needed today as 00:05:24.129 --> 00:05:27.899 ever. We will print the words of Christ who is 00:05:27.899 --> 00:05:30.939 with us always, even to the end of the world. 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:35.379 Quote, love your enemies, do good to those who 00:05:35.379 --> 00:05:38.220 hate you, and pray for those who persecute you, 00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:41.660 that you may be children of your Father in heaven 00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:44.759 who makes God's Son rise on the good and the 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:47.920 bad and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 00:05:48.990 --> 00:05:52.990 We are still pacifists. Our manifesto is the 00:05:52.990 --> 00:05:55.430 Sermon on the Mount. That's the great line. Our 00:05:55.430 --> 00:05:58.329 manifesto is the Sermon on the Mount, which means 00:05:58.329 --> 00:06:01.790 we will still try to be peacemakers. Speaking 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:05.029 for many who are conscientious objectors, we 00:06:05.029 --> 00:06:08.910 will not participate in armed warfare or in making 00:06:08.910 --> 00:06:12.670 weapons or by buying government bonds to prosecute 00:06:12.670 --> 00:06:16.370 the war or in urging others in these war -making 00:06:16.370 --> 00:06:19.480 efforts. And she goes on at length like that. 00:06:20.579 --> 00:06:23.279 Martha Hennessy, I think it's just one of the 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:28.199 greatest moments in Christian history. And that 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.600 Dorothy Day just stood up and said, hey, we'd 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:33.839 like to kill like everybody, but we're followers 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.500 of Jesus. And so our manifesto is the Sermon 00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:40.899 on the Mount. What do you think, Martha? Oh, 00:06:40.899 --> 00:06:44.000 John, thank you so much for picking out that 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.610 reading. It's really, really powerful. Dorothy 00:06:47.610 --> 00:06:50.250 always referred to Peter as the founder of the 00:06:50.250 --> 00:06:54.009 movement. So tell us who Peter was so everybody 00:06:54.009 --> 00:06:56.649 knows. But you and I will say, I'm going to say 00:06:56.649 --> 00:07:00.350 Dorothy. She was being nonviolent. Tell us about 00:07:00.350 --> 00:07:03.449 Peter, though, just for the record. Well, Peter 00:07:03.449 --> 00:07:06.470 was the one who really put Dorothy on the trajectory 00:07:06.470 --> 00:07:10.870 of starting a newspaper and the houses of hospitality. 00:07:11.629 --> 00:07:14.889 You know, she was five years into her conversion 00:07:14.889 --> 00:07:18.189 and she hadn't. yet figured out what her role 00:07:18.189 --> 00:07:21.029 was, what her vocation was with her background 00:07:21.029 --> 00:07:25.670 and her skills as a writer. So Peter is the one 00:07:25.670 --> 00:07:28.689 who helped launch the movement. Peter Morin. 00:07:29.329 --> 00:07:34.870 Peter Morin. Yeah, yeah. So the Sermon on the 00:07:34.870 --> 00:07:39.009 Mount, being our Christian manifesto, you know, 00:07:39.009 --> 00:07:42.269 the Catholic worker was always asked, you know, 00:07:42.269 --> 00:07:44.350 where do you stand with this war, this current 00:07:44.350 --> 00:07:49.490 war? her answer would be the same each time. 00:07:49.569 --> 00:07:51.889 You know, she spoke about the Spanish Civil War 00:07:51.889 --> 00:07:56.569 being unnecessary and unjust, and she felt that 00:07:56.569 --> 00:08:01.029 that was true for every war. This attitude of, 00:08:01.129 --> 00:08:04.029 you know, what's to save Christianity? What's 00:08:04.029 --> 00:08:08.250 to save civilization and democracy? And war will 00:08:08.250 --> 00:08:15.009 not save any of these values that we have. And 00:08:15.009 --> 00:08:19.970 she made it very clear that gearing ourselves 00:08:19.970 --> 00:08:24.790 up for war making, death dealing, bombers. I'm 00:08:24.790 --> 00:08:30.029 looking at her June 1940 write up on our stand 00:08:30.029 --> 00:08:34.049 on World War II. And, you know, we need the money 00:08:34.049 --> 00:08:36.710 to heal and rebuild a shattered world. And this 00:08:36.710 --> 00:08:41.570 is so true today even. But it is very, very clear 00:08:41.570 --> 00:08:45.490 what Jesus tells us to do. And it's very clear 00:08:45.490 --> 00:08:49.029 that Dorothy understood that and took it to heart. 00:08:49.970 --> 00:08:54.029 And another thing she said in her 1940 write 00:08:54.029 --> 00:08:56.509 -up, there are many who consider that we're approaching 00:08:56.509 --> 00:08:59.950 the end of the world. But what are 2 ,000 years 00:08:59.950 --> 00:09:03.230 in the history of the world? We are still in 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:05.889 the beginnings of Christianity. It is true that 00:09:05.889 --> 00:09:08.429 we are at the end of an era, and we are probably 00:09:08.429 --> 00:09:12.539 seeing the death throes of capitalism. That was 00:09:12.539 --> 00:09:15.200 written in 1940, and here we're still witnessing 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:19.879 the thrashing of empire and the death knell of 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:25.600 capitalism. So she gave us these words. She gave 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:30.399 us this guidance. She stood in a place that much 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.840 of the U .S. Catholic Church was not standing 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:39.659 in, and she suffered from taking that true stand. 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:44.120 as a Christian, as a disciple of Christ in the 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:49.000 20th century. And as, John, you point out, a 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:54.240 very important Catholic in the history of the 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:59.580 U .S., I think that she helped define the Church 00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:04.720 in its trueness in her time with her witness. 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:10.289 And so we have to be ever so grateful. for what 00:10:10.289 --> 00:10:12.649 she did and what she said and what she wrote, 00:10:12.870 --> 00:10:17.409 her witness, and we're still challenged today 00:10:17.409 --> 00:10:21.830 to rise up to that, to oppose war at any cost, 00:10:21.850 --> 00:10:26.070 no matter what. This business of just war theory, 00:10:26.389 --> 00:10:30.950 Pope Francis is now moving beyond that because 00:10:30.950 --> 00:10:33.509 with modern -day weapons, there's no such thing 00:10:33.509 --> 00:10:38.190 as a just war because more civilians and innocents 00:10:38.190 --> 00:10:41.889 get killed. You know, with each generation of 00:10:41.889 --> 00:10:44.789 war making, that number increases. And now we're 00:10:44.789 --> 00:10:48.250 witnessing Gaza with thousands upon thousands 00:10:48.250 --> 00:10:52.110 of casualties of civilians. So this is what war 00:10:52.110 --> 00:10:58.129 leads us to. You know, you talked about the cost, 00:10:58.149 --> 00:11:01.350 and it's hard for us to grasp right now that 00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:04.769 she publishes this. You know, she went from just 00:11:04.769 --> 00:11:07.250 a little tiny newspaper in a couple of months. 00:11:08.059 --> 00:11:12.879 100 ,000 readers in 1933. It's incredible with 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:17.000 just word of mouth. And, you know, it was so 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:21.399 long ago. And this is published and everybody 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.720 cancels their subscription. And a lot of Catholic 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.799 worker houses closed. People left her. How dare 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:31.539 you be against the war? And then if you study 00:11:31.539 --> 00:11:34.120 like Paul Eli's great book, I think he makes 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:38.000 it clearest, her legacy. As you said, she was 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.639 against every single war. And our friend Daniel 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:44.139 Berrigan was always in awe of her. Because we 00:11:44.139 --> 00:11:46.820 never had that before. We never had a priest 00:11:46.820 --> 00:11:51.399 against war. The U .S. Bishops' Conference was 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:55.860 founded in 1919 for the sole purpose of supporting 00:11:55.860 --> 00:11:58.559 the troops and supporting war. And it's still 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:02.240 that way today. It's in their mission. And most 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:05.470 bishops have done this. I kind of think sometimes, 00:12:05.830 --> 00:12:09.090 Martha, that Dorothy was God's instrument to 00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:13.029 save the Catholic Church in the world, like St. 00:12:13.070 --> 00:12:17.669 Francis was. Seriously. I know. And she's a lone 00:12:17.669 --> 00:12:20.970 woman standing up to all these churchmen saying, 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:26.149 hey, sorry, no. Yeah. Well, a lot of the houses 00:12:26.149 --> 00:12:30.029 closed, not simply in protest of what Dorothy 00:12:30.029 --> 00:12:33.250 said about the war. but that they were forced 00:12:33.250 --> 00:12:36.590 to go join in the effort. So the pervasiveness 00:12:36.590 --> 00:12:41.649 of our war -making culture is to such an extent 00:12:41.649 --> 00:12:44.730 that, you know, thank God we have people in history 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:49.929 like Dorothy who recognized what it was, war 00:12:49.929 --> 00:12:54.470 for what it was. And, you know, it is human nature 00:12:54.470 --> 00:12:58.990 to try and do whatever you need to do to save 00:12:58.990 --> 00:13:03.350 your own hide. Make yourself comfortable. And 00:13:03.350 --> 00:13:07.350 she wouldn't do that. She walked the way of Jesus. 00:13:08.169 --> 00:13:13.110 Yeah, you know, I think of my friend Mary Lou 00:13:13.110 --> 00:13:19.090 Kalnacki, who wrote an essay shortly after Dorothy 00:13:19.090 --> 00:13:22.710 Day died in the early 80s. She was one of the 00:13:22.710 --> 00:13:25.629 early leaders of Pax Christi. And she said, I 00:13:25.629 --> 00:13:27.789 used to think that Dorothy was so great because 00:13:27.789 --> 00:13:29.789 she took in the homeless and lived with them. 00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:33.379 and really began to live out Matthew 25. And 00:13:33.379 --> 00:13:36.240 I thought she was great because she said no to 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.419 war and then no to nuclear weapons. And she did 00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:41.480 civil disobedience. And I thought she was great 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:43.519 because she was such a brilliant writer. And 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.679 in the end, she has this great line that Dorothy 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.899 was great because she was faithful to this as 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:55.539 a way of life in season and out, no matter what 00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:58.500 the country or the church was saying. She stayed 00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:00.960 faithful to the Sermon on the Mount, and she 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.139 lived long. And I thought that was a brilliant 00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:07.960 insight that Dorothy stayed the course, and it's 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.600 very easy to give up, and she didn't. She never 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:14.340 did. I wonder if you could reflect on that for 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:17.679 a moment, about her fidelity and what it might 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:20.539 mean for you. And since I got you, Martha, and 00:14:20.539 --> 00:14:22.480 I don't know if I've ever even asked you this, 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.879 can you tell us what it was like, what she was 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:30.720 like, your grandmother? Oh, yeah, this fidelity. 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.679 Well, because she was a mystic, because she was 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.799 touched by God. She was, I think, an exceptional 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:42.379 person, but I would describe her as an ordinary 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:46.700 grandmother. I mean, we all understood when each 00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:49.279 of us reached a certain age that, you know, she 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:52.299 wasn't ordinary. She was extraordinary, and we 00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:56.059 understood that she belonged to the world. But 00:14:56.059 --> 00:15:00.159 to grow up with a grandmother like that, you 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.840 spend the rest of your life trying to understand 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:09.500 what she was about. I didn't really fully grasp. 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.659 It took me a lifetime to fully grasp her capacity, 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.799 her fidelity, her focus. She was very gentle. 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:23.080 She was very strong. My older siblings probably 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:28.120 got more. from her than I did. She was too tired 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.019 by the time I was having a child out of wedlock. 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:36.700 But the example that she gave us and that Tamar, 00:15:36.700 --> 00:15:41.080 my mother, gave us was one of be present and 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:46.000 practice loving kindness. You know, that's our 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.860 humanity. If we can at least grasp and access 00:15:52.019 --> 00:15:55.080 Those precepts of we're here to love one another, 00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:00.259 then so many beautiful things can follow. Oh, 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.460 that's wonderful. Thank you. I found this line 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:06.960 in the diaries that were published a few years 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:13.159 ago in 1967. And it was the height of the civil 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:18.139 rights movement and Dr. King and Vietnam. So, 00:16:18.139 --> 00:16:20.659 you know, Dorothy wrote, she was a phenomenal 00:16:20.659 --> 00:16:24.200 writer, and her autobiography, The Long Loneliness, 00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:26.460 is one of the great spiritual classics of all 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.720 time. But I always ponder that, you know, that 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:34.259 era of our great figures, Dorothy and Thomas 00:16:34.259 --> 00:16:38.179 Merton and our friend Daniel Berrigan, much less 00:16:38.179 --> 00:16:41.100 Gandhi or Dr. King, never wrote about Jesus. 00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:46.029 much less even really books on nonviolence. And 00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:48.370 Dorothy didn't write about it that much, but 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:51.350 I found this line, nonviolence is the all -important 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:55.570 virtue to be nourished and studied and cultivated. 00:16:56.450 --> 00:16:58.850 And that was very helpful to me. And there are 00:16:58.850 --> 00:17:01.289 others like it, which she says that. I wonder 00:17:01.289 --> 00:17:06.710 if you could reflect on Dorothy's teachings of 00:17:06.710 --> 00:17:10.369 nonviolence. So, for example, when I was in prison 00:17:10.369 --> 00:17:13.680 with Phil Berrigan, he said, Oh, she was at Gandhi 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.599 level because she wasn't just teaching it and 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.460 writing about it, but she was modeling it by 00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:23.160 taking the homeless in and living with them and 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.779 getting arrested and going to prison and keeping 00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:30.920 it small and trusting in God. It was a very, 00:17:30.980 --> 00:17:35.000 very hard life. Any thoughts on Dorothy as a 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:39.200 real teacher and model of nonviolence and therefore 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:43.359 Christianity in the Sermon on the Mount? Well, 00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:46.259 her willingness to give her will over to God. 00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:50.400 Why do you say that? I mean, is that something 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.660 that you see in her writings and experience? 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:57.180 That's very powerful that you say that. Well, 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.400 I saw it in what happened to my mother's parents. 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:05.940 You know, at the family level, this practice 00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:09.339 of nonviolence really does begin with each of 00:18:09.339 --> 00:18:13.859 us in our own hearts. And she gave up a life 00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:18.799 that she so dearly wanted. You know, my mother 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.400 suffered. With your grandfather, Foster. Yeah, 00:18:22.539 --> 00:18:27.839 losing her father as a child to this work. So 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:32.400 Dorothy had a very personal experience initially, 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:38.119 which I do believe prepared her to give her will 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:42.140 over. I think that my grandfather recognized 00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:45.619 something that he had to let go of and let her 00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:50.359 go do the work that she needed to do. And, you 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.519 know, that level of commitment and understanding 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.400 and willingness to trust in God is what, you 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.259 know, gave her the stamina and the foundation 00:19:02.259 --> 00:19:06.359 to continue with nearly 50 years of the Catholic 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.920 Worker Movement. Well, thank you, Martha, for 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:14.559 that beautiful answer. So Dorothy Day is on track 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.980 to be beatified soon and probably canonized soon. 00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:22.559 And there's various reflections within the Catholic 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.500 Worker Movement and the family, I'm sure. I'm 00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:30.259 all for it, just to help get her message of peacemaking 00:19:30.259 --> 00:19:34.170 in the gospel far and wide. I just wonder if 00:19:34.170 --> 00:19:36.069 you wanted to reflect briefly on any of your 00:19:36.069 --> 00:19:38.970 thoughts about her legacy and also what that 00:19:38.970 --> 00:19:42.130 might mean, what your thought on it is these 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:46.849 days. Oh, the U .S. Church desperately needs 00:19:46.849 --> 00:19:52.049 her as a saint. You know, a laywoman, a mother, 00:19:52.230 --> 00:19:58.390 a grandmother, she has so much to give to the 00:19:58.390 --> 00:20:03.430 Church, her gifts, and we desperately need. The 00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:07.289 example that she set for us in these times, in 00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:11.710 this setting, this situation, this culture, and 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:17.450 Pope Francis recognizes her as a saint and the 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:24.789 necessity of bringing her into the circle of 00:20:24.789 --> 00:20:29.410 saints as a way of holding up an example of how 00:20:29.410 --> 00:20:33.400 to live one's life with heroic virtue. how to 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:39.880 teach gospel nonviolence no matter what time 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:44.680 and place we are in. So I am very supportive 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:50.140 of her cause because I think the United States 00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:54.700 Catholic Church is, you know, in the heart of 00:20:54.700 --> 00:20:59.710 the empire, in the belly of the beast. Someone 00:20:59.710 --> 00:21:02.529 like Dorothy, who came from, you know, a very 00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:08.269 WASP background. My forebearers, you know, helped 00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:12.990 build this country, which is an empire. But she 00:21:12.990 --> 00:21:16.289 held up an alternative, you know, the care of 00:21:16.289 --> 00:21:20.390 the poor, the defense of the workers. All of 00:21:20.390 --> 00:21:23.549 that, I believe, fits in perfectly well with 00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:27.089 the Catholic social teachings. We need a saint 00:21:27.089 --> 00:21:30.509 like her for our times. And of course, her writings, 00:21:30.630 --> 00:21:32.690 I believe she's a doctor of the church based 00:21:32.690 --> 00:21:37.609 on her writings. And so I'm really praying hard 00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:40.769 that this, I wish she could be fast -tracked 00:21:40.769 --> 00:21:44.589 like John Paul II was fast -tracked. Me too. 00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:51.349 That would be great. So I just think this whole 00:21:51.349 --> 00:21:55.750 cloud of witnesses. It is so critical to all 00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:57.910 of us, and she relied on the saints to guide 00:21:57.910 --> 00:22:01.849 her, too. So it's really critical that this move 00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:03.710 forward, and I know that there is opposition 00:22:03.710 --> 00:22:08.470 to her cause based on the betrayal of Christ, 00:22:08.529 --> 00:22:14.069 as far as I'm concerned. So we're talking in 00:22:14.069 --> 00:22:18.029 Lent 2025, and just a few days ago or weeks ago, 00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:22.089 you and Ash Wednesday were in New York City. 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:25.599 for an Ash Wednesday service and peace vigil 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:29.940 at the U .S. Mission to the United Nations, speaking 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:34.359 out outside of the treaty conference, calling 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.380 for the ban on nuclear weapons. And my friend 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.579 Archbishop John Wester of New Mexico was there 00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:42.259 with you. And some people were arrested. Tell 00:22:42.259 --> 00:22:44.539 us about that. That's a good way to spend Ash 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:47.140 Wednesday, Martha. And your grandmother would 00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:52.359 be very proud of you. Well, it was really wonderful 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.980 to have Archbishop Wester come and administer 00:22:55.980 --> 00:23:00.700 the ashes to our foreheads. And then we walked 00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:03.539 from the Isaiah Wall up to the U .S. Mission 00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:07.720 to the U .N. And we're begging our country to 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.180 sign the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear 00:23:10.180 --> 00:23:15.500 Weapons. That was put together in 2017. Archbishop 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:19.450 Wester has written a pastoral. I forget what 00:23:19.450 --> 00:23:21.390 year that came out. You would know, John, because 00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:25.650 you helped work on that. And, you know, we have 00:23:25.650 --> 00:23:30.289 to put our bodies where our mouths are. And we 00:23:30.289 --> 00:23:33.329 put our banner, we started to walk, we wanted 00:23:33.329 --> 00:23:36.690 to picket, like old Catholic worker style. And 00:23:36.690 --> 00:23:39.670 we had a very long banner that, you know, is 00:23:39.670 --> 00:23:42.009 telling the United States to please sign on to 00:23:42.009 --> 00:23:44.880 this treaty and abolish nuclear weapons. So we 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.920 walked across First Avenue and then we were going 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.299 to do a circle, you know, in front of the U .N. 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.339 And the police said, no, you can't walk on this 00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:55.680 sidewalk. And anyhow, they ended up pushing us 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.740 into the street. And so once we were on the crosswalk 00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:04.799 with our sign that was big enough to block First 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.279 Avenue, we stopped. We stopped crossing the street 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.740 and we, you know, stopped the traffic and were 00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:14.420 cleaned up pretty quickly. But what more can 00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:18.200 we do? Were you arrested? Yes, yes. And what 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:23.180 did your banner say? Sign the treaty? Yes, U 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:27.299 .S., United States, I can't remember. I'm always 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:29.779 holding these signs and then I can never remember 00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:35.099 what they say. But yes, we were arrested for 00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:39.200 disorderly conduct. But I did hear someone say 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:45.210 after this action that... Qatar asked Israel 00:24:45.210 --> 00:24:49.789 to sign the TPNW. So we would like to think that 00:24:49.789 --> 00:24:52.809 that week at the UN and the U .S. mission to 00:24:52.809 --> 00:24:58.150 the UN has had an effect on various leaders of 00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:01.250 countries. And the word is out. We need to get 00:25:01.250 --> 00:25:04.309 rid of these nuclear weapons. And, you know, 00:25:04.369 --> 00:25:06.170 I think Russia has wanted to get rid of these 00:25:06.170 --> 00:25:09.950 nuclear weapons from the very beginning. I lay 00:25:09.950 --> 00:25:13.210 the blame for the situation we're in today directly 00:25:13.210 --> 00:25:19.190 at the feet of the United States. Yeah. A couple 00:25:19.190 --> 00:25:21.529 of years ago, I started working with a Catholic 00:25:21.529 --> 00:25:24.910 worker and basically joined a local community 00:25:24.910 --> 00:25:29.910 in Central California once a week. And we distribute 00:25:29.910 --> 00:25:34.130 food to hundreds and hundreds of farm worker 00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:38.710 families every week. And I mean... tons and tons 00:25:38.710 --> 00:25:42.210 and tons of food. It's usually mothers and kids 00:25:42.210 --> 00:25:44.930 show up because the fathers are out working in 00:25:44.930 --> 00:25:50.089 the field. And it's just life changing. I don't 00:25:50.089 --> 00:25:52.269 do anything. I'm in charge of usually giving 00:25:52.269 --> 00:25:54.789 out the cereal and all the other friends just 00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:59.130 make fun of me. You are working at the mother 00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:03.089 house, Mary House Catholic Worker. where your 00:26:03.089 --> 00:26:05.730 grandmother lived and actually where she died 00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:09.569 in 1980. Tell us about Mary House these days, 00:26:09.809 --> 00:26:12.549 what it's like and what you've been doing. I 00:26:12.549 --> 00:26:15.509 was there last year, but tell us, tell everybody 00:26:15.509 --> 00:26:21.910 about life at Mary House. Well, life in community 00:26:21.910 --> 00:26:26.730 and life at a house of hospitality requires... 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.619 similar skills to what I had as a mother and 00:26:30.619 --> 00:26:34.859 a wife. I've been volunteering there part -time 00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:39.599 for about 15 years now. And the house is special. 00:26:39.819 --> 00:26:42.400 The house has an amazing spirit to it. I mean, 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.480 there's a lot of hardship with working, you know, 00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:50.039 with the poor and with those who come into community. 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:54.339 There's a lot of mental illness, both with guests 00:26:54.339 --> 00:26:59.259 and workers. We all come with need to the House 00:26:59.259 --> 00:27:02.960 of Hospitality. But for me, it's been a real 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.420 exercise. I don't feel like I would have a leg 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:10.180 to stand on to even begin to speak about Dorothy 00:27:10.180 --> 00:27:14.500 or the movement if I did not participate in that 00:27:14.500 --> 00:27:18.019 aspect of the work. I love doing it. You know, 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.390 I'm a Martha. I love to cook and clean. be with 00:27:22.390 --> 00:27:24.849 folks, growing up in a big family, growing up 00:27:24.849 --> 00:27:28.329 around the Catholic worker. But there are challenges 00:27:28.329 --> 00:27:32.390 in terms of decision -making and how we treat 00:27:32.390 --> 00:27:36.289 each other and how to keep the house clean. The 00:27:36.289 --> 00:27:41.190 house is old. It's very run -down. But I don't 00:27:41.190 --> 00:27:44.349 know. It's just such a spiritual exercise for 00:27:44.349 --> 00:27:47.150 me. It makes me, you know, when I work in the 00:27:47.150 --> 00:27:50.769 clothing room or on the soup line, This kind 00:27:50.769 --> 00:27:56.190 of work makes me confront my own internal imperialistic 00:27:56.190 --> 00:28:01.650 urges. So I would recommend anyone and everyone 00:28:01.650 --> 00:28:05.789 who cares about peace and justice to practice 00:28:05.789 --> 00:28:07.950 the works of mercy at some point in their lives 00:28:07.950 --> 00:28:13.589 to really gain a taste for what it's about. Thank 00:28:13.589 --> 00:28:16.349 you. So you took a big risk a couple of years 00:28:16.349 --> 00:28:19.950 ago and crossed a line with the Kings Bay Plowshares 00:28:19.950 --> 00:28:24.890 in a nuclear disarmament action and went to prison. 00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:27.910 We don't have much time. Can you just say a little 00:28:27.910 --> 00:28:30.029 bit about that for people who don't know what 00:28:30.029 --> 00:28:34.690 you did and what your message was? Well, Phil 00:28:34.690 --> 00:28:36.890 and Dan Berrigan started the Plowshares movement. 00:28:36.990 --> 00:28:39.190 The first action occurred three months before 00:28:39.190 --> 00:28:42.980 Dorothy died. in 1980. We're coming up on the 00:28:42.980 --> 00:28:46.640 seventh anniversary of our action. We chose April 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.940 4th, the day that King was murdered by the state, 00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:54.619 the 50th anniversary of his assassination. And 00:28:54.619 --> 00:28:57.460 we chose King's Bay that houses the Trident nuclear 00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.940 subs that can strike anywhere on the planet within 00:29:00.940 --> 00:29:04.920 15 minutes, enough firepower to destroy the world 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:09.509 four times over with the U .S. arsenal. We thought 00:29:09.509 --> 00:29:12.950 that was insane, and so we went into the base 00:29:12.950 --> 00:29:17.750 and we did the usual traditional actions of pouring 00:29:17.750 --> 00:29:21.650 our own blood to show that we do not want to 00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:26.730 shed innocent blood. Like Jesus, we are to sacrifice 00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:30.750 ourselves for our brothers and sisters, and also 00:29:30.750 --> 00:29:36.549 the sacramental, nonviolent action of hammering. 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.779 on the weapons system symbolically. You know, 00:29:40.819 --> 00:29:44.480 based on Isaiah 2 -4, we need to beat our swords 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.319 into plowshares. And I served a 10 -month sentence. 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:54.160 And again, this is an exercise of self -disarmament. 00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:58.819 And it's an exercise of pointing out that these 00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:02.839 nuclear weapons are deadly and insane and illegal 00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:08.410 and immoral. And so we go on to the base to preach, 00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:11.170 you know, get a different job. This is not a 00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:14.769 decent livelihood. And then, of course, we go 00:30:14.769 --> 00:30:17.450 into the federal courts to point out that it's 00:30:17.450 --> 00:30:20.390 on paper, that this is illegal. And, of course, 00:30:20.410 --> 00:30:23.890 we get suppressed every time. And then, of course, 00:30:24.029 --> 00:30:27.789 the third part of the ministry is helping the 00:30:27.789 --> 00:30:30.710 women in the prisons. You know, our prisons are 00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:34.660 full of the most vulnerable. members of society, 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:39.019 and we scapegoat them. So nuclear abolition and 00:30:39.019 --> 00:30:42.799 prison abolition really go hand in hand in terms 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:49.019 of being nonviolent in our culture. Thank you. 00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:52.480 Thank you, Martha. Well, our time is coming to 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:56.880 an end. And again, another huge, ridiculous question. 00:30:58.220 --> 00:31:01.799 Any final thoughts under this new Trump administration 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:05.720 and all that we're witnessing of the rise, even 00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:10.079 greater rise of fascism, authoritarianism, oligarchy, 00:31:10.099 --> 00:31:14.339 and therefore racism and war making and the collective 00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:18.539 insanity about, especially from Dorothy's witness 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:21.140 and the Catholic worker witness, suggestions 00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:25.460 for people? about steps to go forward to live 00:31:25.460 --> 00:31:28.500 out the Sermon on the Mount as a manifesto and 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:31.059 to take any public actions. What would you recommend 00:31:31.059 --> 00:31:33.940 to people who are looking for things to do to 00:31:33.940 --> 00:31:39.480 respond? Well, she pointed out that the problems 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:44.799 that we face are a result of empire and that 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:47.720 the solutions will never come from the state. 00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:52.349 So we each have to do our own little part. in 00:31:52.349 --> 00:31:55.369 terms of finding out in our own neighborhoods 00:31:55.369 --> 00:31:58.630 what we can do to practice the works of mercy, 00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:01.809 to care for the most vulnerable, to love our 00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:05.769 neighbors as ourselves. And, you know, not everyone 00:32:05.769 --> 00:32:08.509 can do a plowshares action. Not everyone can 00:32:08.509 --> 00:32:11.730 run a house of hospitality or write a newspaper. 00:32:12.990 --> 00:32:16.430 But to find one's niche, I think the Catholic 00:32:16.430 --> 00:32:20.029 Worker Movement is... beautifully integrated 00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:26.430 and sound model to participate in, to create 00:32:26.430 --> 00:32:33.450 a new world from the shell of the old world, 00:32:33.589 --> 00:32:37.650 as Peter Morin would say, and to make a society 00:32:37.650 --> 00:32:41.410 in which it's easier to be good. But our current 00:32:41.410 --> 00:32:45.910 situation is inevitable. I mean, that's the condition 00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:50.299 of advanced capitalism. practice a war economy 00:32:50.299 --> 00:32:53.539 for decades, and this is where we will end up. 00:32:54.740 --> 00:32:58.400 Oligarchy, plutocracy, you know, white supremacy, 00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:02.180 Martin Luther King Jr. named it all, the triple 00:33:02.180 --> 00:33:06.779 evils of racism, militarism, and materialism. 00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:11.960 And so this is the inevitable outcome of practicing 00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:17.990 this capitalism for 500 years now. Well, I really 00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:19.809 want to thank you, Martha. Is there any last 00:33:19.809 --> 00:33:23.750 word you'd like to offer our listeners? Don't 00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:28.369 forget to have fun and retain hope. Okay. Good 00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:30.950 last piece of advice. Thank you so much for being 00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:34.029 with me, Martha. And I hope everybody enjoyed 00:33:34.029 --> 00:33:36.549 listening to Martha Hennessey. Thank you, friends, 00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:39.509 for listening to the nonviolent Jesus. podcast. 00:33:39.609 --> 00:33:42.710 You can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:33:42.710 --> 00:33:47.769 Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter .org. And please 00:33:47.769 --> 00:33:50.630 consider offering a donation to support this 00:33:50.630 --> 00:33:54.269 free work. And if you can, maybe leave some positive 00:33:54.269 --> 00:33:58.250 feedback or a review on Apple or Spotify or the 00:33:58.250 --> 00:34:01.410 National Catholic Reporter, whatever platform 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:04.900 you're using. So thank you so much. May the God 00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:07.660 of peace bless everyone. Keep on following the 00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:10.760 nonviolent Jesus and see you all next time.