Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Eric Stoner, editor of the online
news hub about nonviolence called WagingNonviolence
.org. This podcast is a project of www .beatitudecenter
.org, where you can find many other podcasts
and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence
of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working
for a more just, more nonviolent world. So what
I like to do is always begin with a little prayer.
So I invite everyone who's listening, wherever
you are, just to take a deep breath and just
to relax for a moment and recenter yourself.
And together let's enter into the presence of
the God of peace who loves you infinitely. And
let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with
us and ask for whatever graces and blessings
we need to follow Jesus on the path of nonviolence.
Beloved God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life and love and peace. that you give us.
Be with us now as we reflect together on your
call to live and practice the way of nonviolence
and bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen
us, and send us out to do your will and to proclaim
and live your way of active, creative nonviolence
and the tradition of... Jesus, Gandhi, Dr. King,
and Dorothy Day, that we might do our part to
help end poverty and war, racism, greed, injustice,
and nuclear weapons, and the whole systems of
violence. that we might be your beatitude people
of universal love, compassion, and peace. We
ask this in the name of the nonviolent Jesus.
Amen. Hey, it's my great pleasure to welcome
and introduce everyone to my friend Eric Stoner,
founding editor of WagingNonviolence .org, which
is an independent nonprofit media platform website
that covers social movements and activism. based
in Gandhian -Kingian nonviolence all over the
world. Since 2009, it has published original
reporting on nonviolent action from contributors
in more than 90 countries. Eric has reported
himself from Afghanistan and the Philippines,
and his articles have appeared in, I think, Rolling
Stone, Sojourners, The Nation, The Guardian,
In These Times, and elsewhere. Eric is also an
adjunct professor at New York University. where
he teaches a course on global justice and peacemaking.
I myself have known Eric for decades, and I remember
somewhere along the line, Eric, you called in
the early 2000s and said, hey, we're going to
set up this brand new website as a clearinghouse
for all things about nonviolence with the best
writers and the best news. And I thought that
was great. But now it's totally taken off and
recently had up to 1 .3 million. people reading
it and following it. All this done on a shoestring
budget with just a few staff people, Eric and
our friend Brian. It's really a miracle. And
I was happy to have you on, Eric, so that everyone
would know about WagingNonviolence .org and hear
about what you're doing. So Eric Stoner, welcome
to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thanks so much
for having me, John. It's my pleasure. If people
typed in wagingnonviolence .org, Eric, they'd
find all these articles about campaigns happening
around the country and the world and movements
where people are organizing around the power
of Gandhian, Kingian nonviolence to bring about
justice locally and discernment. you know, positive
social change for creation. It's been my view,
along with our friends and teachers, Erica Chenoweth
and Maria Stefan, who I'll later have on the
program, that the only way positive social change
happens, and I mean from Jesus to St. Francis
and St. Clair to the abolitionists, the suffragists,
the labor movement of the 30s, the civil rights
movement, the anti -Vietnam War movement, and
then the explosion, if you will, of nonviolent
movements from, you know, the women's movement,
the environmental movement, LGBT, to the end
of apartheid, the nonviolent collapse of communism
in the Berlin Wall, and all the other movements.
The only way change happens is bottom -up people
power, grassroots movement of nonviolence. It's
not just the human way to change. It's a spiritual
way. You've been editing and collecting stories
every day for almost 20 years now. And here we
are in our country in this terrible moment with
the Trump administration bringing on full -on
authoritarianism, oligarchy, and fascism. So
let's start right there and dive into it. Tell
me about what you're hearing. Eric, as you look
around the country and people are writing to
you and you're in touch with so many people about
nonviolent organizing and campaigns in response
to the Trump administration and all the bad things
happening. Yeah, I think contrary to what I think
a lot of people think or feel right now, there's
actually been a lot more protest and resistance
to Trump. than you might see in the mainstream
media. I think that's the important point is
that a lot of these stories aren't getting the
attention that they deserve. And once you start
to really see what's happening, it does inspire
hope. And you do see possibilities for how we
can stop a lot of the bad from happening. Yes,
I mean, when you look just from the very beginning,
there's been actually widespread protests against,
you know, the attacks on government by Elon Musk
and Doge and the freezing of federal funds, trillions
of dollars of federal funds, which, you know,
Trump has had to backtrack on many of his attempts
to kind of hurt people and to kind of take control.
I think you've seen widespread protests in support
of migrants and immigrants more generally around
the country in L .A. and every other major city.
Farm workers have engaged in stay -at -home strikes.
Students have walked out of schools to protest
ice raids. Cities and churches are... standing
up as sanctuaries and saying they're going to
take in and protect people. So it's really inspiring
when you actually see all the things that are
happening. And then there have been some actions
that just need a little reframing to kind of
see their power. So, you know, a couple of weeks
ago when Elon Musk sent out that email to all
every government worker. requiring that they
send a list of five things that they've done
in the last week, something like 1 .5 million
people just refused. It was kind of an act of
mass noncompliance, maybe one of the largest
in U .S. history. And then, you know, you had
this economic blackout. They were calling it
on February 28th. And I just saw that Forbes
had a story that talked about a poll where they
interviewed consumers and they found that 16
% of people that they talked to said that they
were participating in this boycott. So if those
numbers are right, that could mean up to 40 million
people participated in this boycott, which is
really incredible. But has anybody seen that
in the news? Has anybody really heard about that?
It's kind of shocking. And then finally, there's
been really, I think, inspiring protests around
Tesla, which I've enjoyed seeing where they've
been protesting at Tesla dealerships. And I've
really tried to and been successful in kind of
tanking Tesla's stock price. And one estimate
was that it's actually knocked off $100 billion
off of Elon's net worth. which is just incredible.
So yeah, there's just so much happening, right?
And now there are people who are talking about
tax resistance. They're talking about organizing
a general strike. So there's just a lot that
is happening under the radar of the mainstream
media that I think should give us some hope and
inspiration. Well, that's very hopeful and encouraging
to hear you say it like that. And you're right,
I haven't heard... any of these things, except
when I see them on wagingnonviolence .org. So
the boycott in particular, you know my friend
and great teacher Philip Berrigan, the great
activist and his brother Daniel Phil, shortly
before he died in response to my book about Gandhi.
You may remember in 1919, Gandhi, it's in the
movie Gandhi. Gandhi calls for a total boycott
of everything, that the whole country is to shut
down for a day of prayer and fasting. And everybody
laughed at him. And 300 million people stayed
home. And that was the beginning of the end of
British rule. And the British were appalled.
And Phil wrote a long essay saying that's what
needs to happen in the United States. And he
died not living to see any of that happen. And
Dan said, when the day died, well, you know,
someday this will happen. It'll be in the record.
I'd never heard anybody call for it. In all my
years of activism, I'd never seen anything until
February 28th. And they were very clear, this
was just a few weeks ago, especially Walmart,
Target. Any big chain store, no gasoline, right?
And I didn't do that. And so I was studying the
press. I just want to hear a little bit more
about what you think about this. And the next
day, the New York Times had a real horrible personal
attack on the founder of the boycott. Nothing
about the boycott, but just attacked him on the
front page. I was impressed. I mean, they showed
their cards. And if you're saying that 16%, that
is millions and millions of people, and that
has to really make a dent. And just to follow
up on that, when I had conversations with Cesar
Chavez, of the farm workers in the 80s and the
90s, he said the most important tool in nonviolence
is the boycott, hands down. You know, it worked
for Gandhi, and the boycott is how apartheid
fell, period. Once the global boycott on apartheid
happened on South Africa, apartheid was doomed
because it couldn't run the country. And he said
that's what we did, and we needed to get... 3
% of the country to boycott grapes, and we got
17%. And it just changed the grape industry.
Where do you think this is going to go? What
are you hearing? These organizers are calling
for continued boycotts like every month this
year, and I think it's going to ramp up. And
that would be my hope. But how do we help spread
the word? Make sure it's rooted in nonviolence
somehow. And it's got to become contagious, because
don't you think that's how nonviolence works,
Eric? Yes, exactly. I think the success of this
boycott, I think, was extremely contagious. I
think people are desperate for ways that they
can act and show their opposition to what's going
on. And so this really spread without... without
much organization at all. It really kind of spread
through social media, through things like TikTok.
You know, it was like really impressive the amount
of how it caught fire, given how... little actual
organization that was behind it. And I think
the challenge now, right, is to, you know, what
made Gandhi and Chavez successful was that there
was a lot of serious organizing that went, you
know, on the ground kind of organizing to build
those boycotts. And so I think the challenge
will be to what extent we can actually give real
kind of infrastructure and real education around.
how are boycotts successful? And so I think that's
going to be what we need to do because there
have been many calls for boycotts of particular
companies or industries or days of actions, weeks
of actions over the next couple months. But it
still is being spread largely online and doesn't
have, at least from what I know, major organizations
kind of behind it or labor unions or things like
this. So I think... We're going to have to get
more strategic and more planning and more training
to increase our effectiveness with the boycott.
But I think it is one of the most powerful tools
that we have. And we're just learning how to
flex that muscle right now. But I think it's
encouraging to see how much this idea already
captured people's imaginations. Yeah, it's very
exciting and very hopeful. Can you say a word
about the media not covering it? I mean, the
media absolutely cannot cover the boycott of
all their major sponsors because it's the end
of the mainstream media then, isn't it? I mean,
so we're just going to have to, as you say, do
a lot of grassroots organizing and word of mouth
to build on it. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
The major media are also major corporations in
themselves, and they have their own corporate
interests and their own sponsors. And, yeah,
so I think by their very nature, they're going
to be doing what they can to kind of squash,
you know, efforts like this. So I think this
is where you really need to find alternative
sources of information, you know, and I think
social media is one way that, you know, these
ideas are not. kind of totally controlled by
some big corporations. So I think, you know,
also obviously waging nonviolence, you can find
all this information. I really recommend Choose
Democracy as well, which has been collecting
a lot of this information and started... a site
called Boycott Central, where they're collecting
information about all these different boycott
efforts and historical case studies and trying
to teach people about how to do this more effectively.
So that's choosedemocracy .org? Yes. And boycottcentral
.org? Boycott Central, I think, is a sub... project
under Choose Democracy. So if you go there, you'll
be able to find more information there and sign
up for that mailing list to kind of keep up on
all the different boycott efforts and research
and to go deeper on this. That's great. So one
of your writers, whom I don't know, Daniel Hunter,
started writing about organizing against Trump
early on. He's attracted, it seems like, millions
of readers. And he wrote a big piece on your
site after Trump won re -election. And he's now
written another one with tips on resisting tyranny
and authoritarianism and oligarchy under the
Trump administration as things are moving very
fast. And I wonder if you could just sum up some
of Daniel Hunter's main points for us. And what
you think about his arguments and any other suggestions
you have about specifically about what people
can do in terms of waging nonviolence against
the Trump administration and the collapse of
democracy. Sure. Yeah. So the story was published
really on the day of the election and it just
exploded the following day and has kind of. been
the biggest thing that we've ever done in our
15 years of running the website. And people really
ran with it in so many different ways. There
were people organizing trainings around it and
turning it into zines. And somebody wrote about
developing a college course around the article.
So it was really inspiring to see how... This
is from November? The recent election? This is
from November, yeah. And it still is getting
a lot of traction on our side, even though it
was written for that moment. But I think it's
because a lot of the advice is really sound.
And he kind of has 10 points that he develops
to look at how we can stay grounded and be prepared
and resist kind of effectively in this moment
against Trump. And he starts off by actually
developing more around kind of... the psychological
and emotional work that we need to do in moments
like this. And I think that really struck people.
But he starts off by talking about needing to
trust yourself, trust your instincts, right?
To find a small group of people that you can
get together with regularly and process what's
happening and try to build something with. He
talks about the importance of grieving. That
if we don't take time to grieve what is lost,
we might act irrationally or lash out. And it's
important to appreciate what we've been through,
right? And yeah, if you're just kind of operating
from shock about what's happening, you're going
to make mistakes. He then talks about... The
need to just release what you can't change. He
says it's kind of captured in the serenity prayer,
right? God grant me the serenity to accept the
things I cannot change, the courage to change
the things that I can, and the wisdom to know
the difference. There's a lot there about appreciating
our own limitations, but also then finding...
thinking about what we can do, right? And kind
of acknowledging that you can't respond to every
single crisis. You know, right now we're being
hit in so many different ways that it's kind
of overwhelming. And I think it's important just
to think about, you know, what you feel particularly
moved by or, you know, that you feel like you're
suited for and figuring out ways that you can
get involved. And that'll be different for everybody.
And we need everyone. So I think that's kind
of an important point to remember. You know,
there's also just this basic point about not
obeying in advance, you know, this kind of anticipatory
obedience that I think is really dangerous, where
people see this threat of Trump and his attacks
and kind of... self -censor or toe the line and
you have seen a lot of that happening you know
in the last few months by some powerful actors
you know big corporations that have kind of given
in immediately um to trump and and politicians
as well but you know i think you also see a lot
of people um following this this guidance you
know that there's a lot of government workers
who um decided that they were not going to go
along with these different orders and that that
trump and musk have made to try to try to you
know destroy the the federal government which
i think is really inspiring to see how they have
been kind of pushing back and leading the charge
in a lot of ways um and then you know he kind
of finishes it by talking about how we need to
be open to working across political lines, that
there might be some strange bedfellows in moments
like this, and we need to be open to that, that
we, again, kind of need everyone to be involved,
and that there are going to be people that voted
for Trump that didn't appreciate the threat and
the danger that he posed that are going to have
their eyes open because of... you know, how this
is going to impact them and people that they
care about. And so I think we need to be careful
not to write people off and kind of hold space
for them to change. And we also need to hold
on to really kind of a positive vision for the
future. You know, it's less inspiring to just
be Talking about what you are against and what
you want to stop. You know, we also have to have
like a moving, inspiring vision for the world
that we want. And so I think those are those
are some of the ideas that he he shared in that
story. And I think, you know, they're they're
just good. They're good points that kind of hold
at any at any point, you know. So I think that's
also why it really resonated with so many people.
That's so helpful. Thank you. You know, one of
the things about nonviolence that Martin Luther
King says was nonviolence is power. And we have
more power than we realize. And when I think
of you, you know, you just said, well, you and
your friends were going to start a website. Well,
you know, I was an old guy then. Now I'm even
older. I write, you know, write books and give
talks, a website. And you stuck with it, and
it's just grown, and it's had such an impact
for many people around the world as a source
of information. And it just makes me think we
all have more power than we realize if we dare
just throw ourselves into the good cause and
give it our all. So you've been at this for 15
years, editing this website and collecting stories
about nonviolence around the world. And I think...
I don't know that we've ever really talked about
it per se over the years, but that must be an
amazing experience because even when things are
bad, you're hearing a lot of good stories. And
so I wanted to ask you, what are some of the
most powerful, maybe most memorable stories about
movements, grassroots movements and campaigns
of active creative nonviolence that you've written
about or posted about in your years at wagingnonviolence
.org? Yeah, I think, you know, working on this
site for that long, it's really been for me a
blessing and kind of a godsend. I think it has,
in a lot of ways, kept me sane and kept me more
hopeful than your average person, because I am
seeing all the time good people all around the
world trying to make things better, trying to
push back against injustice and violence. And
more often than you would imagine winning, you
know, and actually making a real impact. So I
think that's just been one of the best parts
of working on this for so long. I also feel like
it's been nice to see when you really kind of
focus on this topic, you can see things coming
before other people. So I feel like we've kind
of gotten ahead of. a lot of different organizations
or movements that you know have then gone on
to make huge change um and really impact the
culture and and and the policies and of our country
and i feel like you know uh seeing that has been
really has has been really powerful so you know
our our first big kind of moment happened around
occupy wall street uh we're based in new york
and so we were able to actually published the
first story on the internet about Occupy Wall
Street before it was even existed. And we kind
of, I think, played an important role in kind
of becoming a hub for information around Occupy.
And it was really an inspiring thing to go deep
on and to be a part of personally. And then,
you know, I think... climate has been a major
focus of the site and we've been able to tell
really kind of early stories about movements
that went on to really change the country so
the the divestment movement around fossil fuels
that started at swarthmore and kind of has become
a huge international movement you know withdrawing
trillions of dollars from uh from fossil fuel
investments We published actually the first story
about the Sunrise Movement. They came to us before
they had ever done any protest, and we shared
their story and what their vision was. And so,
you know, that was super inspiring to see them
go on to become kind of a leader of the movement
in the U .S. and really, you know, put the Green
New Deal on the political map. Tell people what
Sunrise is. Sunrise is a group of young people
who really care about the climate. And also it
kind of grew out of the student divestment movement
on campuses. But they kind of really hit the
scene when they occupied Nancy Pelosi's office
back in 2018. Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez joined
them, and it became a huge story. They had this
vision of the Green New Deal, and they were the
ones that really made that an issue that everybody
had to pay attention to. They, I think, were
the real inspiration for the Inflation Reduction
Act that won hundreds of billions of dollars
for the climate. and was one of the biggest climate
victories in history. So I think without Sunrise,
we would not have had that success. And I feel
very honored that we were able to publish the
first story about them. And then I'm always very
moved by international stories, which I think
are often neglected by... the wider media and
i feel like we there are so many inspiring stories
from other countries of non -violent movements
that have taken on and overthrown dictatorships
and authoritarian regimes and won other huge
victories that just that are just not on the
radar of most people and i think we need to learn
from what's happening outside of our country.
And there's a lot to learn. So, you know, just
one story that struck me that we published just
last month was about the recent movement in South
Korea. Did you follow that? A little bit. Tell
everybody. So there was a president in December
who announced martial law. And so there was a
real threat of kind of a self -coup, they call
it, where... Somebody who's already in power
tries to solidify their power and, you know,
kind of crush their opposition. And, you know,
people just rose up, you know, really spontaneously
in that moment. And they went to the parliament
and stopped the troops from entering the parliament.
There were real showdowns where people were just
blocking tanks and blocking troops. parliamentarians
were scaling the fences of the parliament to
get in to vote to stop the martial law. And it
was just this incredibly inspiring movement.
And then they stayed there after they succeeded
in stopping the martial law within hours. And
over the next few weeks, they just were on the
streets every day. At the peak, there were millions
of people out on the streets. The president was
arrested. And it's just the kind of thing when
you study this story, you realize this is the
kind of urgency and energy we need to see more
of here. And we could learn a lot from their
example. So we have all these incredible stories
like this that it's important for folks that
care about social change and trying to improve
this country that we need to learn from. Wow,
that's great. So exciting. Because we're friends,
I had asked if it would be okay if you would
share a bit of your own personal journey. So
the question is, how did you get involved in
nonviolence? And I know it involved your own
health crisis. But what's so moving for me is
you made a real conscious choice when you were
younger to just say, okay, I'm going to do my
bit for nonviolence. And here you are. Changing
the world. If you wouldn't mind, would you share
with our listeners your own journey? Thanks,
John. Yeah. I grew up as a pretty traditional
Catholic and was never really exposed to nonviolence
in my education or my church or my kind of upbringing.
And so I was actually pretty conservative politically.
up until college and uh i was then for the first
time really exposed to the non -violent jesus
when i took a class in in washington dc with
coleman mccarthy who is just an incredible teacher
and and journalist who really changed my life
in a lot of ways he just shared so many powerful
stories of nonviolence and peacemakers that I
had never heard of, and it really touched my
heart. I felt like I had a conversion that summer
while I was in D .C., and I felt like I needed
to change my life. It also was connected, like
you mentioned, to my health. I have cystic fibrosis.
And at the time, you know, the life expectancy
with the disease was probably maybe in the 30s
or in the 40s. So I kind of grew up feeling like
I didn't have long. And I felt like I wanted
to do something meaningful with my life. And
I wanted to try to help people. I think having
that illness also gave me an appreciation for
just the vulnerability of life and made me, I
think that made nonviolence more appealing. I
thought, you know, given the little time that
we have on this earth, like, why would we spend
that precious time trying to hurt others or trying
to kill others? We need to do whatever we can
to kind of protect life in all its forms. And
so I just felt like when I learned these stories
of nonviolence, it just was incredibly inspiring
for me. And I felt like I needed to, I decided
to make that my life's mission. And so, yeah,
that was just a transformative. experience for
me. And I think it did have a lot to do with
why I chose nonviolence. And you're doing well
these days. Yeah, there was also a big breakthrough
with my health in the last few years that has
kind of changed the trajectory. So I'm very thankful
to still be here and still being able to do this
work. and kind of get into good trouble. That's
great. So you must have learned a lot of new
things over the decades since Coleman's class
and reporting on nonviolence around the world.
And I know we don't have much time left, but
maybe you could share a thought or two about...
What are you learning new these days? What are
you thinking these days? And even as you teach
it at NYU about nonviolence and nonviolent action
and even the spirituality of nonviolence. Yeah,
I mean, I think I've continually just learned
over and over again how powerful of a tool nonviolence
is for social change. I think it's really, like
you said, the most powerful tool that we have.
And, you know, like you mentioned, I think everything
that we have that is good today was won through
nonviolent struggle. And, you know, but to get
good at it, we need to study it and we need to
practice it. And I think, you know, being grounded
in faith is also very important and can, I think,
give us staying power. There's a lot of ups and
downs when you're in the struggle and doing this
kind of work. And, you know, having faith and
spirituality and a belief in God gives you a
kind of a long -term perspective, right? That
it's not about needing to see immediate progress,
you know, that you are taking action because
you believe that you are on the side of justice
and doing what is right and trying to... take
care of people um so yeah i've i i've just been
reaffirmed over and over again in that by doing
this this work and you know also just seeing
the power really of love you know that um that's
what it comes down to right is that we're meant
to to take care of each other um and you know
that's kind of our highest purpose and non -violence
is like a beautiful way to, to live that out.
So, and really to not, not to write people off,
you know, to, to not give up on people that we
need to, we need to kind of respect everyone's
humanity and really work towards, you know, building
King's beloved community. Wow. That's so beautiful,
Eric. Thank you so much. As we end, let me just
ask, is there any other last thought you'd like
to share with our listeners? That was a pretty
good one, calling us to love. Yeah, I think in
this moment, we all should try to find community.
I think community is really key to surviving
moments like the one we're going through. So
I think it's important for everyone to kind of
look for... people that they can connect with
right now, especially local efforts, you know,
maybe in their church or, you know, there are
over a thousand indivisible chapters and there's
many springing up in the last couple of months.
You know, there's groups like Third Act, if you
care about climate, that are specifically for
folks over the age of 60. And, you know, they're
doing incredible actions around the country.
So, you know, we need to find each other right
now and, you know, also try to find news and
information that kind of counters the despair
that I think a lot of us are feeling. So we need
to kind of realize that we're in this for the
long haul, right? This isn't a sprint, it's a
marathon, and we need to do what we can to take
care of each other right now. Well, thank you
so much. Thanks, Eric. And all our friends listening,
please visit Eric's great website, www .wagingnonviolence
.org, and make it one of your regular places
to go to find out what's happening. So thanks,
Eric Stoner, for speaking with me today. And
thank you, friends, for listening to another
episode of the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You
can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming
Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org.
And please consider offering a donation to support
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you use. So thank you so much. May the God of
peace bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent
Jesus and see everybody next time.