WEBVTT 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.839 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:17.160 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.899 with my friend Eric Stoner, editor of the online 00:00:20.899 --> 00:00:25.460 news hub about nonviolence called WagingNonviolence 00:00:25.460 --> 00:00:31.500 .org. This podcast is a project of www .beatitudecenter 00:00:31.500 --> 00:00:34.560 .org, where you can find many other podcasts 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:37.520 and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.659 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:40.659 --> 00:00:44.479 for a more just, more nonviolent world. So what 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:46.619 I like to do is always begin with a little prayer. 00:00:46.780 --> 00:00:49.840 So I invite everyone who's listening, wherever 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:53.159 you are, just to take a deep breath and just 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:56.079 to relax for a moment and recenter yourself. 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.000 And together let's enter into the presence of 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:04.099 the God of peace who loves you infinitely. And 00:01:04.099 --> 00:01:07.140 let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:10.140 us and ask for whatever graces and blessings 00:01:10.140 --> 00:01:13.959 we need to follow Jesus on the path of nonviolence. 00:01:19.459 --> 00:01:22.799 Beloved God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.069 of life and love and peace. that you give us. 00:01:26.109 --> 00:01:30.469 Be with us now as we reflect together on your 00:01:30.469 --> 00:01:33.890 call to live and practice the way of nonviolence 00:01:33.890 --> 00:01:38.689 and bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen 00:01:38.689 --> 00:01:42.230 us, and send us out to do your will and to proclaim 00:01:42.230 --> 00:01:45.849 and live your way of active, creative nonviolence 00:01:45.849 --> 00:01:49.480 and the tradition of... Jesus, Gandhi, Dr. King, 00:01:49.540 --> 00:01:52.480 and Dorothy Day, that we might do our part to 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.760 help end poverty and war, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:57.140 --> 00:02:00.500 and nuclear weapons, and the whole systems of 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:03.609 violence. that we might be your beatitude people 00:02:03.609 --> 00:02:06.709 of universal love, compassion, and peace. We 00:02:06.709 --> 00:02:08.830 ask this in the name of the nonviolent Jesus. 00:02:09.289 --> 00:02:12.530 Amen. Hey, it's my great pleasure to welcome 00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:14.969 and introduce everyone to my friend Eric Stoner, 00:02:15.150 --> 00:02:19.110 founding editor of WagingNonviolence .org, which 00:02:19.110 --> 00:02:23.930 is an independent nonprofit media platform website 00:02:23.930 --> 00:02:28.629 that covers social movements and activism. based 00:02:28.629 --> 00:02:31.389 in Gandhian -Kingian nonviolence all over the 00:02:31.389 --> 00:02:35.490 world. Since 2009, it has published original 00:02:35.490 --> 00:02:39.069 reporting on nonviolent action from contributors 00:02:39.069 --> 00:02:43.430 in more than 90 countries. Eric has reported 00:02:43.430 --> 00:02:45.789 himself from Afghanistan and the Philippines, 00:02:45.889 --> 00:02:49.270 and his articles have appeared in, I think, Rolling 00:02:49.270 --> 00:02:51.789 Stone, Sojourners, The Nation, The Guardian, 00:02:51.930 --> 00:02:54.930 In These Times, and elsewhere. Eric is also an 00:02:54.930 --> 00:02:57.789 adjunct professor at New York University. where 00:02:57.789 --> 00:03:01.330 he teaches a course on global justice and peacemaking. 00:03:01.550 --> 00:03:05.050 I myself have known Eric for decades, and I remember 00:03:05.050 --> 00:03:08.409 somewhere along the line, Eric, you called in 00:03:08.409 --> 00:03:11.409 the early 2000s and said, hey, we're going to 00:03:11.409 --> 00:03:14.250 set up this brand new website as a clearinghouse 00:03:14.250 --> 00:03:16.930 for all things about nonviolence with the best 00:03:16.930 --> 00:03:20.169 writers and the best news. And I thought that 00:03:20.169 --> 00:03:23.990 was great. But now it's totally taken off and 00:03:23.990 --> 00:03:27.819 recently had up to 1 .3 million. people reading 00:03:27.819 --> 00:03:31.419 it and following it. All this done on a shoestring 00:03:31.419 --> 00:03:34.879 budget with just a few staff people, Eric and 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.919 our friend Brian. It's really a miracle. And 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:42.060 I was happy to have you on, Eric, so that everyone 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:45.860 would know about WagingNonviolence .org and hear 00:03:45.860 --> 00:03:48.539 about what you're doing. So Eric Stoner, welcome 00:03:48.539 --> 00:03:52.060 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thanks so much 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:56.860 for having me, John. It's my pleasure. If people 00:03:56.860 --> 00:04:01.280 typed in wagingnonviolence .org, Eric, they'd 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:05.319 find all these articles about campaigns happening 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.280 around the country and the world and movements 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.240 where people are organizing around the power 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:17.839 of Gandhian, Kingian nonviolence to bring about 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:22.779 justice locally and discernment. you know, positive 00:04:22.779 --> 00:04:26.019 social change for creation. It's been my view, 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.560 along with our friends and teachers, Erica Chenoweth 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.360 and Maria Stefan, who I'll later have on the 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:36.300 program, that the only way positive social change 00:04:36.300 --> 00:04:40.899 happens, and I mean from Jesus to St. Francis 00:04:40.899 --> 00:04:44.060 and St. Clair to the abolitionists, the suffragists, 00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:47.079 the labor movement of the 30s, the civil rights 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:49.279 movement, the anti -Vietnam War movement, and 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:51.240 then the explosion, if you will, of nonviolent 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:55.379 movements from, you know, the women's movement, 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:58.300 the environmental movement, LGBT, to the end 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:02.420 of apartheid, the nonviolent collapse of communism 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:05.319 in the Berlin Wall, and all the other movements. 00:05:05.379 --> 00:05:08.000 The only way change happens is bottom -up people 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.779 power, grassroots movement of nonviolence. It's 00:05:12.779 --> 00:05:15.500 not just the human way to change. It's a spiritual 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:19.360 way. You've been editing and collecting stories 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:26.420 every day for almost 20 years now. And here we 00:05:26.420 --> 00:05:28.839 are in our country in this terrible moment with 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.100 the Trump administration bringing on full -on 00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:34.879 authoritarianism, oligarchy, and fascism. So 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:37.639 let's start right there and dive into it. Tell 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:40.490 me about what you're hearing. Eric, as you look 00:05:40.490 --> 00:05:42.389 around the country and people are writing to 00:05:42.389 --> 00:05:44.610 you and you're in touch with so many people about 00:05:44.610 --> 00:05:48.949 nonviolent organizing and campaigns in response 00:05:48.949 --> 00:05:51.310 to the Trump administration and all the bad things 00:05:51.310 --> 00:05:57.089 happening. Yeah, I think contrary to what I think 00:05:57.089 --> 00:05:59.269 a lot of people think or feel right now, there's 00:05:59.269 --> 00:06:03.170 actually been a lot more protest and resistance 00:06:03.170 --> 00:06:08.689 to Trump. than you might see in the mainstream 00:06:08.689 --> 00:06:11.649 media. I think that's the important point is 00:06:11.649 --> 00:06:13.629 that a lot of these stories aren't getting the 00:06:13.629 --> 00:06:18.189 attention that they deserve. And once you start 00:06:18.189 --> 00:06:21.949 to really see what's happening, it does inspire 00:06:21.949 --> 00:06:25.389 hope. And you do see possibilities for how we 00:06:25.389 --> 00:06:31.560 can stop a lot of the bad from happening. Yes, 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.680 I mean, when you look just from the very beginning, 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.480 there's been actually widespread protests against, 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:39.920 you know, the attacks on government by Elon Musk 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:45.959 and Doge and the freezing of federal funds, trillions 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:48.399 of dollars of federal funds, which, you know, 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:53.600 Trump has had to backtrack on many of his attempts 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.699 to kind of hurt people and to kind of take control. 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.980 I think you've seen widespread protests in support 00:07:03.980 --> 00:07:07.019 of migrants and immigrants more generally around 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:10.579 the country in L .A. and every other major city. 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:16.500 Farm workers have engaged in stay -at -home strikes. 00:07:17.379 --> 00:07:21.240 Students have walked out of schools to protest 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:25.470 ice raids. Cities and churches are... standing 00:07:25.470 --> 00:07:27.589 up as sanctuaries and saying they're going to 00:07:27.589 --> 00:07:31.449 take in and protect people. So it's really inspiring 00:07:31.449 --> 00:07:33.870 when you actually see all the things that are 00:07:33.870 --> 00:07:36.970 happening. And then there have been some actions 00:07:36.970 --> 00:07:40.069 that just need a little reframing to kind of 00:07:40.069 --> 00:07:43.610 see their power. So, you know, a couple of weeks 00:07:43.610 --> 00:07:46.550 ago when Elon Musk sent out that email to all 00:07:46.550 --> 00:07:50.139 every government worker. requiring that they 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:53.959 send a list of five things that they've done 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:57.860 in the last week, something like 1 .5 million 00:07:57.860 --> 00:08:02.220 people just refused. It was kind of an act of 00:08:02.220 --> 00:08:05.360 mass noncompliance, maybe one of the largest 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.639 in U .S. history. And then, you know, you had 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:13.000 this economic blackout. They were calling it 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.779 on February 28th. And I just saw that Forbes 00:08:16.779 --> 00:08:21.480 had a story that talked about a poll where they 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:25.019 interviewed consumers and they found that 16 00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:27.019 % of people that they talked to said that they 00:08:27.019 --> 00:08:30.480 were participating in this boycott. So if those 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:34.019 numbers are right, that could mean up to 40 million 00:08:34.019 --> 00:08:37.440 people participated in this boycott, which is 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.659 really incredible. But has anybody seen that 00:08:40.659 --> 00:08:42.539 in the news? Has anybody really heard about that? 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:46.460 It's kind of shocking. And then finally, there's 00:08:46.460 --> 00:08:51.639 been really, I think, inspiring protests around 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.360 Tesla, which I've enjoyed seeing where they've 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:57.740 been protesting at Tesla dealerships. And I've 00:08:57.740 --> 00:09:02.059 really tried to and been successful in kind of 00:09:02.059 --> 00:09:05.700 tanking Tesla's stock price. And one estimate 00:09:05.700 --> 00:09:08.639 was that it's actually knocked off $100 billion 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:13.850 off of Elon's net worth. which is just incredible. 00:09:14.769 --> 00:09:17.230 So yeah, there's just so much happening, right? 00:09:17.330 --> 00:09:18.909 And now there are people who are talking about 00:09:18.909 --> 00:09:21.710 tax resistance. They're talking about organizing 00:09:21.710 --> 00:09:25.049 a general strike. So there's just a lot that 00:09:25.049 --> 00:09:28.429 is happening under the radar of the mainstream 00:09:28.429 --> 00:09:31.809 media that I think should give us some hope and 00:09:31.809 --> 00:09:36.210 inspiration. Well, that's very hopeful and encouraging 00:09:36.210 --> 00:09:38.429 to hear you say it like that. And you're right, 00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:41.250 I haven't heard... any of these things, except 00:09:41.250 --> 00:09:44.909 when I see them on wagingnonviolence .org. So 00:09:44.909 --> 00:09:47.870 the boycott in particular, you know my friend 00:09:47.870 --> 00:09:51.149 and great teacher Philip Berrigan, the great 00:09:51.149 --> 00:09:53.909 activist and his brother Daniel Phil, shortly 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:58.809 before he died in response to my book about Gandhi. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.799 You may remember in 1919, Gandhi, it's in the 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.879 movie Gandhi. Gandhi calls for a total boycott 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:08.440 of everything, that the whole country is to shut 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:11.419 down for a day of prayer and fasting. And everybody 00:10:11.419 --> 00:10:15.519 laughed at him. And 300 million people stayed 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.299 home. And that was the beginning of the end of 00:10:18.299 --> 00:10:21.320 British rule. And the British were appalled. 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:26.220 And Phil wrote a long essay saying that's what 00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:28.960 needs to happen in the United States. And he 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:32.059 died not living to see any of that happen. And 00:10:32.059 --> 00:10:35.720 Dan said, when the day died, well, you know, 00:10:35.740 --> 00:10:37.779 someday this will happen. It'll be in the record. 00:10:38.179 --> 00:10:41.519 I'd never heard anybody call for it. In all my 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:44.039 years of activism, I'd never seen anything until 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:47.740 February 28th. And they were very clear, this 00:10:47.740 --> 00:10:51.759 was just a few weeks ago, especially Walmart, 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:56.759 Target. Any big chain store, no gasoline, right? 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:00.679 And I didn't do that. And so I was studying the 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.019 press. I just want to hear a little bit more 00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:05.639 about what you think about this. And the next 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:11.220 day, the New York Times had a real horrible personal 00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:14.940 attack on the founder of the boycott. Nothing 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:17.860 about the boycott, but just attacked him on the 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:22.250 front page. I was impressed. I mean, they showed 00:11:22.250 --> 00:11:29.950 their cards. And if you're saying that 16%, that 00:11:29.950 --> 00:11:32.309 is millions and millions of people, and that 00:11:32.309 --> 00:11:38.309 has to really make a dent. And just to follow 00:11:38.309 --> 00:11:43.029 up on that, when I had conversations with Cesar 00:11:43.029 --> 00:11:46.909 Chavez, of the farm workers in the 80s and the 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:50.629 90s, he said the most important tool in nonviolence 00:11:50.629 --> 00:11:54.370 is the boycott, hands down. You know, it worked 00:11:54.370 --> 00:11:58.090 for Gandhi, and the boycott is how apartheid 00:11:58.090 --> 00:12:01.029 fell, period. Once the global boycott on apartheid 00:12:01.029 --> 00:12:04.289 happened on South Africa, apartheid was doomed 00:12:04.289 --> 00:12:06.789 because it couldn't run the country. And he said 00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:09.980 that's what we did, and we needed to get... 3 00:12:09.980 --> 00:12:12.379 % of the country to boycott grapes, and we got 00:12:12.379 --> 00:12:16.539 17%. And it just changed the grape industry. 00:12:18.659 --> 00:12:20.759 Where do you think this is going to go? What 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.080 are you hearing? These organizers are calling 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.360 for continued boycotts like every month this 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:28.639 year, and I think it's going to ramp up. And 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.679 that would be my hope. But how do we help spread 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.480 the word? Make sure it's rooted in nonviolence 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.720 somehow. And it's got to become contagious, because 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:40.840 don't you think that's how nonviolence works, 00:12:41.059 --> 00:12:46.799 Eric? Yes, exactly. I think the success of this 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.600 boycott, I think, was extremely contagious. I 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.419 think people are desperate for ways that they 00:12:52.419 --> 00:12:56.039 can act and show their opposition to what's going 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:00.940 on. And so this really spread without... without 00:13:00.940 --> 00:13:03.620 much organization at all. It really kind of spread 00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:06.899 through social media, through things like TikTok. 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.980 You know, it was like really impressive the amount 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:16.600 of how it caught fire, given how... little actual 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:19.240 organization that was behind it. And I think 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.919 the challenge now, right, is to, you know, what 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.220 made Gandhi and Chavez successful was that there 00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:28.539 was a lot of serious organizing that went, you 00:13:28.539 --> 00:13:31.500 know, on the ground kind of organizing to build 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:34.299 those boycotts. And so I think the challenge 00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:38.779 will be to what extent we can actually give real 00:13:38.779 --> 00:13:42.259 kind of infrastructure and real education around. 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.500 how are boycotts successful? And so I think that's 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:48.460 going to be what we need to do because there 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:51.980 have been many calls for boycotts of particular 00:13:51.980 --> 00:13:56.059 companies or industries or days of actions, weeks 00:13:56.059 --> 00:14:00.059 of actions over the next couple months. But it 00:14:00.059 --> 00:14:03.840 still is being spread largely online and doesn't 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.559 have, at least from what I know, major organizations 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:10.419 kind of behind it or labor unions or things like 00:14:10.419 --> 00:14:13.460 this. So I think... We're going to have to get 00:14:13.460 --> 00:14:17.440 more strategic and more planning and more training 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:22.460 to increase our effectiveness with the boycott. 00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:24.659 But I think it is one of the most powerful tools 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:27.519 that we have. And we're just learning how to 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.299 flex that muscle right now. But I think it's 00:14:30.299 --> 00:14:33.919 encouraging to see how much this idea already 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.919 captured people's imaginations. Yeah, it's very 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:41.809 exciting and very hopeful. Can you say a word 00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:44.490 about the media not covering it? I mean, the 00:14:44.490 --> 00:14:48.309 media absolutely cannot cover the boycott of 00:14:48.309 --> 00:14:52.450 all their major sponsors because it's the end 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:54.950 of the mainstream media then, isn't it? I mean, 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:58.429 so we're just going to have to, as you say, do 00:14:58.429 --> 00:15:02.429 a lot of grassroots organizing and word of mouth 00:15:02.429 --> 00:15:06.850 to build on it. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.659 The major media are also major corporations in 00:15:11.659 --> 00:15:13.600 themselves, and they have their own corporate 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.460 interests and their own sponsors. And, yeah, 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.639 so I think by their very nature, they're going 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:23.100 to be doing what they can to kind of squash, 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.299 you know, efforts like this. So I think this 00:15:26.299 --> 00:15:29.480 is where you really need to find alternative 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:32.299 sources of information, you know, and I think 00:15:32.299 --> 00:15:36.200 social media is one way that, you know, these 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.870 ideas are not. kind of totally controlled by 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:44.990 some big corporations. So I think, you know, 00:15:45.029 --> 00:15:48.289 also obviously waging nonviolence, you can find 00:15:48.289 --> 00:15:52.269 all this information. I really recommend Choose 00:15:52.269 --> 00:15:56.450 Democracy as well, which has been collecting 00:15:56.450 --> 00:15:59.629 a lot of this information and started... a site 00:15:59.629 --> 00:16:02.730 called Boycott Central, where they're collecting 00:16:02.730 --> 00:16:05.049 information about all these different boycott 00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:07.830 efforts and historical case studies and trying 00:16:07.830 --> 00:16:10.250 to teach people about how to do this more effectively. 00:16:10.590 --> 00:16:16.029 So that's choosedemocracy .org? Yes. And boycottcentral 00:16:16.029 --> 00:16:21.090 .org? Boycott Central, I think, is a sub... project 00:16:21.090 --> 00:16:23.409 under Choose Democracy. So if you go there, you'll 00:16:23.409 --> 00:16:25.409 be able to find more information there and sign 00:16:25.409 --> 00:16:28.169 up for that mailing list to kind of keep up on 00:16:28.169 --> 00:16:32.009 all the different boycott efforts and research 00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:35.610 and to go deeper on this. That's great. So one 00:16:35.610 --> 00:16:37.870 of your writers, whom I don't know, Daniel Hunter, 00:16:38.149 --> 00:16:43.289 started writing about organizing against Trump 00:16:43.289 --> 00:16:48.379 early on. He's attracted, it seems like, millions 00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:51.879 of readers. And he wrote a big piece on your 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:56.779 site after Trump won re -election. And he's now 00:16:56.779 --> 00:17:00.600 written another one with tips on resisting tyranny 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.860 and authoritarianism and oligarchy under the 00:17:03.860 --> 00:17:06.400 Trump administration as things are moving very 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.400 fast. And I wonder if you could just sum up some 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:15.420 of Daniel Hunter's main points for us. And what 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:18.380 you think about his arguments and any other suggestions 00:17:18.380 --> 00:17:22.339 you have about specifically about what people 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:25.940 can do in terms of waging nonviolence against 00:17:25.940 --> 00:17:28.500 the Trump administration and the collapse of 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:33.359 democracy. Sure. Yeah. So the story was published 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.740 really on the day of the election and it just 00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:41.539 exploded the following day and has kind of. been 00:17:41.539 --> 00:17:43.920 the biggest thing that we've ever done in our 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:48.019 15 years of running the website. And people really 00:17:48.019 --> 00:17:49.900 ran with it in so many different ways. There 00:17:49.900 --> 00:17:52.900 were people organizing trainings around it and 00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:56.799 turning it into zines. And somebody wrote about 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.240 developing a college course around the article. 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.900 So it was really inspiring to see how... This 00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:03.779 is from November? The recent election? This is 00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:07.440 from November, yeah. And it still is getting 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.539 a lot of traction on our side, even though it 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:13.619 was written for that moment. But I think it's 00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:16.559 because a lot of the advice is really sound. 00:18:16.900 --> 00:18:21.619 And he kind of has 10 points that he develops 00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:25.079 to look at how we can stay grounded and be prepared 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.000 and resist kind of effectively in this moment 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.160 against Trump. And he starts off by actually 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:35.869 developing more around kind of... the psychological 00:18:35.869 --> 00:18:39.890 and emotional work that we need to do in moments 00:18:39.890 --> 00:18:42.609 like this. And I think that really struck people. 00:18:42.789 --> 00:18:46.190 But he starts off by talking about needing to 00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:49.470 trust yourself, trust your instincts, right? 00:18:50.250 --> 00:18:54.970 To find a small group of people that you can 00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:57.809 get together with regularly and process what's 00:18:57.809 --> 00:19:01.529 happening and try to build something with. He 00:19:01.529 --> 00:19:04.809 talks about the importance of grieving. That 00:19:04.809 --> 00:19:10.109 if we don't take time to grieve what is lost, 00:19:10.369 --> 00:19:17.190 we might act irrationally or lash out. And it's 00:19:17.190 --> 00:19:21.890 important to appreciate what we've been through, 00:19:22.089 --> 00:19:26.390 right? And yeah, if you're just kind of operating 00:19:26.390 --> 00:19:29.289 from shock about what's happening, you're going 00:19:29.289 --> 00:19:33.599 to make mistakes. He then talks about... The 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:39.019 need to just release what you can't change. He 00:19:39.019 --> 00:19:41.759 says it's kind of captured in the serenity prayer, 00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:45.279 right? God grant me the serenity to accept the 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.980 things I cannot change, the courage to change 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:50.619 the things that I can, and the wisdom to know 00:19:50.619 --> 00:19:53.680 the difference. There's a lot there about appreciating 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.000 our own limitations, but also then finding... 00:19:57.259 --> 00:20:00.880 thinking about what we can do, right? And kind 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.180 of acknowledging that you can't respond to every 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:06.000 single crisis. You know, right now we're being 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.359 hit in so many different ways that it's kind 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:10.900 of overwhelming. And I think it's important just 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:14.000 to think about, you know, what you feel particularly 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.319 moved by or, you know, that you feel like you're 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.740 suited for and figuring out ways that you can 00:20:20.740 --> 00:20:23.240 get involved. And that'll be different for everybody. 00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:27.930 And we need everyone. So I think that's kind 00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:33.849 of an important point to remember. You know, 00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:36.970 there's also just this basic point about not 00:20:36.970 --> 00:20:41.009 obeying in advance, you know, this kind of anticipatory 00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.950 obedience that I think is really dangerous, where 00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:51.269 people see this threat of Trump and his attacks 00:20:51.269 --> 00:20:55.009 and kind of... self -censor or toe the line and 00:20:55.009 --> 00:20:58.130 you have seen a lot of that happening you know 00:20:58.130 --> 00:21:01.450 in the last few months by some powerful actors 00:21:01.450 --> 00:21:04.430 you know big corporations that have kind of given 00:21:04.430 --> 00:21:08.150 in immediately um to trump and and politicians 00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:11.670 as well but you know i think you also see a lot 00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:15.609 of people um following this this guidance you 00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:18.230 know that there's a lot of government workers 00:21:18.230 --> 00:21:21.380 who um decided that they were not going to go 00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:24.920 along with these different orders and that that 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:29.059 trump and musk have made to try to try to you 00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:31.460 know destroy the the federal government which 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:35.819 i think is really inspiring to see how they have 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:38.940 been kind of pushing back and leading the charge 00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:42.660 in a lot of ways um and then you know he kind 00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:46.289 of finishes it by talking about how we need to 00:21:46.289 --> 00:21:49.690 be open to working across political lines, that 00:21:49.690 --> 00:21:54.509 there might be some strange bedfellows in moments 00:21:54.509 --> 00:21:56.990 like this, and we need to be open to that, that 00:21:56.990 --> 00:22:00.210 we, again, kind of need everyone to be involved, 00:22:00.329 --> 00:22:03.349 and that there are going to be people that voted 00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:07.369 for Trump that didn't appreciate the threat and 00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:09.970 the danger that he posed that are going to have 00:22:09.970 --> 00:22:13.240 their eyes open because of... you know, how this 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.059 is going to impact them and people that they 00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.700 care about. And so I think we need to be careful 00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:22.460 not to write people off and kind of hold space 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:28.279 for them to change. And we also need to hold 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:32.240 on to really kind of a positive vision for the 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.799 future. You know, it's less inspiring to just 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:39.250 be Talking about what you are against and what 00:22:39.250 --> 00:22:41.690 you want to stop. You know, we also have to have 00:22:41.690 --> 00:22:45.589 like a moving, inspiring vision for the world 00:22:45.589 --> 00:22:48.410 that we want. And so I think those are those 00:22:48.410 --> 00:22:51.269 are some of the ideas that he he shared in that 00:22:51.269 --> 00:22:53.990 story. And I think, you know, they're they're 00:22:53.990 --> 00:22:56.670 just good. They're good points that kind of hold 00:22:56.670 --> 00:23:00.170 at any at any point, you know. So I think that's 00:23:00.170 --> 00:23:02.789 also why it really resonated with so many people. 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:08.279 That's so helpful. Thank you. You know, one of 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:11.740 the things about nonviolence that Martin Luther 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:15.380 King says was nonviolence is power. And we have 00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:18.380 more power than we realize. And when I think 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:21.539 of you, you know, you just said, well, you and 00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:26.119 your friends were going to start a website. Well, 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.559 you know, I was an old guy then. Now I'm even 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.440 older. I write, you know, write books and give 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:36.339 talks, a website. And you stuck with it, and 00:23:36.339 --> 00:23:40.700 it's just grown, and it's had such an impact 00:23:40.700 --> 00:23:43.700 for many people around the world as a source 00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:46.480 of information. And it just makes me think we 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.900 all have more power than we realize if we dare 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:53.480 just throw ourselves into the good cause and 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:56.579 give it our all. So you've been at this for 15 00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:59.319 years, editing this website and collecting stories 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:02.720 about nonviolence around the world. And I think... 00:24:03.099 --> 00:24:04.960 I don't know that we've ever really talked about 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.440 it per se over the years, but that must be an 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:10.799 amazing experience because even when things are 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:15.079 bad, you're hearing a lot of good stories. And 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:16.859 so I wanted to ask you, what are some of the 00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:20.160 most powerful, maybe most memorable stories about 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.220 movements, grassroots movements and campaigns 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:26.420 of active creative nonviolence that you've written 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:30.059 about or posted about in your years at wagingnonviolence 00:24:30.059 --> 00:24:35.000 .org? Yeah, I think, you know, working on this 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.619 site for that long, it's really been for me a 00:24:38.619 --> 00:24:41.920 blessing and kind of a godsend. I think it has, 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:46.920 in a lot of ways, kept me sane and kept me more 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:50.539 hopeful than your average person, because I am 00:24:50.539 --> 00:24:55.440 seeing all the time good people all around the 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.359 world trying to make things better, trying to 00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:02.339 push back against injustice and violence. And 00:25:02.339 --> 00:25:06.319 more often than you would imagine winning, you 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:10.019 know, and actually making a real impact. So I 00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:12.940 think that's just been one of the best parts 00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:17.180 of working on this for so long. I also feel like 00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:21.180 it's been nice to see when you really kind of 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:25.839 focus on this topic, you can see things coming 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:28.779 before other people. So I feel like we've kind 00:25:28.779 --> 00:25:31.910 of gotten ahead of. a lot of different organizations 00:25:31.910 --> 00:25:35.349 or movements that you know have then gone on 00:25:35.349 --> 00:25:39.809 to make huge change um and really impact the 00:25:39.809 --> 00:25:44.410 culture and and and the policies and of our country 00:25:44.410 --> 00:25:47.730 and i feel like you know uh seeing that has been 00:25:47.730 --> 00:25:50.950 really has has been really powerful so you know 00:25:50.950 --> 00:25:54.710 our our first big kind of moment happened around 00:25:54.710 --> 00:25:58.250 occupy wall street uh we're based in new york 00:25:58.250 --> 00:26:01.700 and so we were able to actually published the 00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:06.059 first story on the internet about Occupy Wall 00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:10.900 Street before it was even existed. And we kind 00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:13.799 of, I think, played an important role in kind 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.859 of becoming a hub for information around Occupy. 00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:23.119 And it was really an inspiring thing to go deep 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.759 on and to be a part of personally. And then, 00:26:26.779 --> 00:26:29.000 you know, I think... climate has been a major 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.140 focus of the site and we've been able to tell 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:37.400 really kind of early stories about movements 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:39.740 that went on to really change the country so 00:26:39.740 --> 00:26:44.059 the the divestment movement around fossil fuels 00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:47.559 that started at swarthmore and kind of has become 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:51.339 a huge international movement you know withdrawing 00:26:51.339 --> 00:26:55.299 trillions of dollars from uh from fossil fuel 00:26:55.299 --> 00:27:01.480 investments We published actually the first story 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:04.759 about the Sunrise Movement. They came to us before 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:09.019 they had ever done any protest, and we shared 00:27:09.019 --> 00:27:11.619 their story and what their vision was. And so, 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.460 you know, that was super inspiring to see them 00:27:13.460 --> 00:27:16.339 go on to become kind of a leader of the movement 00:27:16.339 --> 00:27:20.559 in the U .S. and really, you know, put the Green 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.619 New Deal on the political map. Tell people what 00:27:23.619 --> 00:27:28.380 Sunrise is. Sunrise is a group of young people 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:33.319 who really care about the climate. And also it 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:36.799 kind of grew out of the student divestment movement 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:41.799 on campuses. But they kind of really hit the 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.259 scene when they occupied Nancy Pelosi's office 00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:50.549 back in 2018. Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez joined 00:27:50.549 --> 00:27:54.690 them, and it became a huge story. They had this 00:27:54.690 --> 00:27:57.930 vision of the Green New Deal, and they were the 00:27:57.930 --> 00:28:02.009 ones that really made that an issue that everybody 00:28:02.009 --> 00:28:05.829 had to pay attention to. They, I think, were 00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:11.170 the real inspiration for the Inflation Reduction 00:28:11.170 --> 00:28:15.210 Act that won hundreds of billions of dollars 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:20.029 for the climate. and was one of the biggest climate 00:28:20.029 --> 00:28:23.230 victories in history. So I think without Sunrise, 00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:30.269 we would not have had that success. And I feel 00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:32.849 very honored that we were able to publish the 00:28:32.849 --> 00:28:38.109 first story about them. And then I'm always very 00:28:38.109 --> 00:28:42.210 moved by international stories, which I think 00:28:42.210 --> 00:28:46.599 are often neglected by... the wider media and 00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:51.279 i feel like we there are so many inspiring stories 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.960 from other countries of non -violent movements 00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:58.259 that have taken on and overthrown dictatorships 00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:02.140 and authoritarian regimes and won other huge 00:29:02.140 --> 00:29:05.220 victories that just that are just not on the 00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:09.700 radar of most people and i think we need to learn 00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:12.339 from what's happening outside of our country. 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:15.619 And there's a lot to learn. So, you know, just 00:29:15.619 --> 00:29:18.559 one story that struck me that we published just 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.339 last month was about the recent movement in South 00:29:21.339 --> 00:29:25.299 Korea. Did you follow that? A little bit. Tell 00:29:25.299 --> 00:29:29.940 everybody. So there was a president in December 00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:34.980 who announced martial law. And so there was a 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:38.880 real threat of kind of a self -coup, they call 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.920 it, where... Somebody who's already in power 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.460 tries to solidify their power and, you know, 00:29:43.460 --> 00:29:47.160 kind of crush their opposition. And, you know, 00:29:47.180 --> 00:29:50.940 people just rose up, you know, really spontaneously 00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:55.880 in that moment. And they went to the parliament 00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.180 and stopped the troops from entering the parliament. 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.140 There were real showdowns where people were just 00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:08.329 blocking tanks and blocking troops. parliamentarians 00:30:08.329 --> 00:30:10.609 were scaling the fences of the parliament to 00:30:10.609 --> 00:30:15.150 get in to vote to stop the martial law. And it 00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:17.910 was just this incredibly inspiring movement. 00:30:18.230 --> 00:30:21.390 And then they stayed there after they succeeded 00:30:21.390 --> 00:30:25.509 in stopping the martial law within hours. And 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:28.390 over the next few weeks, they just were on the 00:30:28.390 --> 00:30:31.890 streets every day. At the peak, there were millions 00:30:31.890 --> 00:30:35.029 of people out on the streets. The president was 00:30:35.029 --> 00:30:38.809 arrested. And it's just the kind of thing when 00:30:38.809 --> 00:30:42.289 you study this story, you realize this is the 00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:46.390 kind of urgency and energy we need to see more 00:30:46.390 --> 00:30:49.509 of here. And we could learn a lot from their 00:30:49.509 --> 00:30:53.970 example. So we have all these incredible stories 00:30:53.970 --> 00:30:57.849 like this that it's important for folks that 00:30:57.849 --> 00:31:01.690 care about social change and trying to improve 00:31:01.690 --> 00:31:06.430 this country that we need to learn from. Wow, 00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:09.750 that's great. So exciting. Because we're friends, 00:31:09.890 --> 00:31:11.970 I had asked if it would be okay if you would 00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:14.309 share a bit of your own personal journey. So 00:31:14.309 --> 00:31:19.069 the question is, how did you get involved in 00:31:19.069 --> 00:31:21.809 nonviolence? And I know it involved your own 00:31:21.809 --> 00:31:24.769 health crisis. But what's so moving for me is 00:31:24.769 --> 00:31:28.170 you made a real conscious choice when you were 00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:31.670 younger to just say, okay, I'm going to do my 00:31:31.670 --> 00:31:34.960 bit for nonviolence. And here you are. Changing 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.319 the world. If you wouldn't mind, would you share 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:41.539 with our listeners your own journey? Thanks, 00:31:41.619 --> 00:31:47.039 John. Yeah. I grew up as a pretty traditional 00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:52.619 Catholic and was never really exposed to nonviolence 00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:58.539 in my education or my church or my kind of upbringing. 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:02.700 And so I was actually pretty conservative politically. 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:08.420 up until college and uh i was then for the first 00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:11.779 time really exposed to the non -violent jesus 00:32:11.779 --> 00:32:16.700 when i took a class in in washington dc with 00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:21.960 coleman mccarthy who is just an incredible teacher 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:26.980 and and journalist who really changed my life 00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:31.910 in a lot of ways he just shared so many powerful 00:32:31.910 --> 00:32:35.009 stories of nonviolence and peacemakers that I 00:32:35.009 --> 00:32:39.109 had never heard of, and it really touched my 00:32:39.109 --> 00:32:44.710 heart. I felt like I had a conversion that summer 00:32:44.710 --> 00:32:48.450 while I was in D .C., and I felt like I needed 00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:53.650 to change my life. It also was connected, like 00:32:53.650 --> 00:32:59.430 you mentioned, to my health. I have cystic fibrosis. 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:04.680 And at the time, you know, the life expectancy 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:09.819 with the disease was probably maybe in the 30s 00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:13.720 or in the 40s. So I kind of grew up feeling like 00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:20.440 I didn't have long. And I felt like I wanted 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:24.299 to do something meaningful with my life. And 00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:30.839 I wanted to try to help people. I think having 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.960 that illness also gave me an appreciation for 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:41.059 just the vulnerability of life and made me, I 00:33:41.059 --> 00:33:44.619 think that made nonviolence more appealing. I 00:33:44.619 --> 00:33:47.779 thought, you know, given the little time that 00:33:47.779 --> 00:33:50.759 we have on this earth, like, why would we spend 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:55.220 that precious time trying to hurt others or trying 00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:58.140 to kill others? We need to do whatever we can 00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:02.559 to kind of protect life in all its forms. And 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.359 so I just felt like when I learned these stories 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:13.280 of nonviolence, it just was incredibly inspiring 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:18.380 for me. And I felt like I needed to, I decided 00:34:18.380 --> 00:34:22.420 to make that my life's mission. And so, yeah, 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:26.239 that was just a transformative. experience for 00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.500 me. And I think it did have a lot to do with 00:34:30.500 --> 00:34:35.960 why I chose nonviolence. And you're doing well 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:41.820 these days. Yeah, there was also a big breakthrough 00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:44.860 with my health in the last few years that has 00:34:44.860 --> 00:34:49.719 kind of changed the trajectory. So I'm very thankful 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:53.239 to still be here and still being able to do this 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:57.130 work. and kind of get into good trouble. That's 00:34:57.130 --> 00:35:00.630 great. So you must have learned a lot of new 00:35:00.630 --> 00:35:04.070 things over the decades since Coleman's class 00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:08.510 and reporting on nonviolence around the world. 00:35:08.809 --> 00:35:11.050 And I know we don't have much time left, but 00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:13.130 maybe you could share a thought or two about... 00:35:13.690 --> 00:35:16.630 What are you learning new these days? What are 00:35:16.630 --> 00:35:19.309 you thinking these days? And even as you teach 00:35:19.309 --> 00:35:22.869 it at NYU about nonviolence and nonviolent action 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:27.949 and even the spirituality of nonviolence. Yeah, 00:35:27.949 --> 00:35:30.690 I mean, I think I've continually just learned 00:35:30.690 --> 00:35:35.690 over and over again how powerful of a tool nonviolence 00:35:35.690 --> 00:35:38.329 is for social change. I think it's really, like 00:35:38.329 --> 00:35:41.909 you said, the most powerful tool that we have. 00:35:43.369 --> 00:35:46.510 And, you know, like you mentioned, I think everything 00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:51.070 that we have that is good today was won through 00:35:51.070 --> 00:35:55.590 nonviolent struggle. And, you know, but to get 00:35:55.590 --> 00:35:57.909 good at it, we need to study it and we need to 00:35:57.909 --> 00:36:02.090 practice it. And I think, you know, being grounded 00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:06.989 in faith is also very important and can, I think, 00:36:06.989 --> 00:36:13.190 give us staying power. There's a lot of ups and 00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:15.929 downs when you're in the struggle and doing this 00:36:15.929 --> 00:36:20.329 kind of work. And, you know, having faith and 00:36:20.329 --> 00:36:22.949 spirituality and a belief in God gives you a 00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:26.250 kind of a long -term perspective, right? That 00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:31.030 it's not about needing to see immediate progress, 00:36:31.309 --> 00:36:34.690 you know, that you are taking action because 00:36:34.690 --> 00:36:37.250 you believe that you are on the side of justice 00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:41.099 and doing what is right and trying to... take 00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:46.820 care of people um so yeah i've i i've just been 00:36:46.820 --> 00:36:50.139 reaffirmed over and over again in that by doing 00:36:50.139 --> 00:36:53.820 this this work and you know also just seeing 00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:58.639 the power really of love you know that um that's 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:00.280 what it comes down to right is that we're meant 00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:04.159 to to take care of each other um and you know 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:08.119 that's kind of our highest purpose and non -violence 00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:12.690 is like a beautiful way to, to live that out. 00:37:13.230 --> 00:37:19.590 So, and really to not, not to write people off, 00:37:19.730 --> 00:37:22.730 you know, to, to not give up on people that we 00:37:22.730 --> 00:37:26.050 need to, we need to kind of respect everyone's 00:37:26.050 --> 00:37:30.309 humanity and really work towards, you know, building 00:37:30.309 --> 00:37:34.989 King's beloved community. Wow. That's so beautiful, 00:37:35.130 --> 00:37:39.099 Eric. Thank you so much. As we end, let me just 00:37:39.099 --> 00:37:41.179 ask, is there any other last thought you'd like 00:37:41.179 --> 00:37:43.639 to share with our listeners? That was a pretty 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:48.719 good one, calling us to love. Yeah, I think in 00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:53.820 this moment, we all should try to find community. 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.559 I think community is really key to surviving 00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:01.280 moments like the one we're going through. So 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.480 I think it's important for everyone to kind of 00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:06.639 look for... people that they can connect with 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.860 right now, especially local efforts, you know, 00:38:09.860 --> 00:38:13.159 maybe in their church or, you know, there are 00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:16.699 over a thousand indivisible chapters and there's 00:38:16.699 --> 00:38:18.739 many springing up in the last couple of months. 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:22.539 You know, there's groups like Third Act, if you 00:38:22.539 --> 00:38:25.360 care about climate, that are specifically for 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.800 folks over the age of 60. And, you know, they're 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.039 doing incredible actions around the country. 00:38:31.769 --> 00:38:35.010 So, you know, we need to find each other right 00:38:35.010 --> 00:38:39.690 now and, you know, also try to find news and 00:38:39.690 --> 00:38:44.210 information that kind of counters the despair 00:38:44.210 --> 00:38:48.550 that I think a lot of us are feeling. So we need 00:38:48.550 --> 00:38:52.630 to kind of realize that we're in this for the 00:38:52.630 --> 00:38:55.510 long haul, right? This isn't a sprint, it's a 00:38:55.510 --> 00:38:58.789 marathon, and we need to do what we can to take 00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:01.170 care of each other right now. Well, thank you 00:39:01.170 --> 00:39:05.510 so much. Thanks, Eric. And all our friends listening, 00:39:05.710 --> 00:39:12.210 please visit Eric's great website, www .wagingnonviolence 00:39:12.210 --> 00:39:15.789 .org, and make it one of your regular places 00:39:15.789 --> 00:39:18.690 to go to find out what's happening. So thanks, 00:39:18.789 --> 00:39:20.969 Eric Stoner, for speaking with me today. And 00:39:20.969 --> 00:39:22.929 thank you, friends, for listening to another 00:39:22.929 --> 00:39:26.530 episode of the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You 00:39:26.530 --> 00:39:29.469 can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:39:29.469 --> 00:39:34.789 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:39:35.389 --> 00:39:38.389 And please consider offering a donation to support 00:39:38.389 --> 00:39:41.809 this free work. and maybe even leaving some positive 00:39:41.809 --> 00:39:46.289 feedback or a review on Apple or Spotify or the 00:39:46.289 --> 00:39:48.929 National Catholic Reporter or whatever platform 00:39:48.929 --> 00:39:52.670 you use. So thank you so much. May the God of 00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:55.650 peace bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent 00:39:55.650 --> 00:39:58.130 Jesus and see everybody next time.