WEBVTT 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:15.519 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:18.280 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm blessed 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:21.039 to speak with Bryan Stevenson, founder of Equal 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:23.780 Justice Initiative, talking with me from his 00:00:23.780 --> 00:00:27.940 office in Montgomery, Alabama. This podcast is 00:00:27.940 --> 00:00:33.670 a project of www .beatitudescenter .org. where 00:00:33.670 --> 00:00:35.890 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:35.890 --> 00:00:39.289 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:39.289 --> 00:00:42.189 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:42.189 --> 00:00:46.590 just, more nonviolent world. As I like to do, 00:00:46.609 --> 00:00:48.570 I like to begin with a little prayer. So I invite 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:51.649 everybody listening just to take a deep breath 00:00:51.649 --> 00:00:55.710 wherever you are and just to relax and recenter 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:59.130 yourself. And we enter here into the presence 00:00:59.130 --> 00:01:03.070 of the God of universal love who loves you. infinitely 00:01:03.070 --> 00:01:07.489 and personally in everyone. Let's welcome the 00:01:07.489 --> 00:01:10.590 nonviolent Jesus with us. Just take a moment 00:01:10.590 --> 00:01:13.549 to ask for whatever graces and blessings you 00:01:13.549 --> 00:01:22.769 need to do God's will. God of peace, thank you 00:01:22.769 --> 00:01:25.810 for all the blessings of life and love and peace 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:29.170 that you give us. Be with us now as Brian and 00:01:29.170 --> 00:01:34.379 I reflect together on... your call to work for 00:01:34.379 --> 00:01:39.420 justice and mercy, to be instruments of peace, 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:44.680 and inspire us, bless us, disarm us all, strengthen 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:49.099 us, and send us all out to do what we can to 00:01:49.099 --> 00:01:52.659 help you end poverty, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:53.060 --> 00:01:55.760 war, and the whole culture of violence and death 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.870 and destruction. that we might be your beatitude 00:01:58.870 --> 00:02:02.510 people of universal love, compassion, and peace, 00:02:02.730 --> 00:02:05.909 your holy peacemakers. In Jesus' name, amen. 00:02:06.950 --> 00:02:10.030 So it's my great pleasure to welcome today and 00:02:10.030 --> 00:02:14.169 introduce everybody to the legendary Bryan Stevenson, 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:16.789 lawyer, founder, and executive director of Equal 00:02:16.789 --> 00:02:19.710 Justice Initiative, also professor of law at 00:02:19.710 --> 00:02:23.379 New York University Law School. an author of 00:02:23.379 --> 00:02:26.900 the great best -selling book Just Mercy, which 00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:29.819 is also made into a terrific movie of the same 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:31.979 name, which I hope everybody will go and see 00:02:31.979 --> 00:02:35.080 the movie and read the book. One of the greatest 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.080 books of our time, about Brian's journey from 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.840 Harvard to Montgomery, Alabama, where he started 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:43.560 a small nonprofit to serve those on death row, 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:47.199 the poor, the wrongly condemned, those trapped 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.199 in the furthest reaches of our criminal injustice 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.639 system. At the heart of the book is the story 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:57.599 of Walter McMillian, a young man sentenced to 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.020 die for a notorious murder he didn't commit. 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:04.060 And Brian has won relief for dozens of condemned 00:03:04.060 --> 00:03:07.460 prisoners, argued five times before the Supreme 00:03:07.460 --> 00:03:11.300 Court, won many awards, including the MacArthur 00:03:11.300 --> 00:03:15.460 Foundation Genius Grant. And a couple years ago, 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:18.280 Brian built... With the support of a lot of people 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.900 and a lot of money, he raised two museums in 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:23.639 Montgomery, Alabama, which I have visited. The 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.840 National Museum of Peace and Justice, a six -acre 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.419 hilltop overlooking Montgomery, the nation's 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:32.719 first comprehensive memorial dedicated to the 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.219 legacy of black Americans who were enslaved, 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:38.620 terrorized by lynching, humiliated by racial 00:03:38.620 --> 00:03:40.939 segregation, and presumed guilty and dangerous. 00:03:41.949 --> 00:03:44.770 Their names are engraved on more than 800 monuments. 00:03:45.310 --> 00:03:49.750 The other museum is the Legacy Museum, From Enslavement 00:03:49.750 --> 00:03:52.250 to Mass Incarceration, it's called, which displays 00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:55.689 the history of slavery, racial lynchings, segregation, 00:03:55.889 --> 00:03:59.250 and racial bias in America. And I hope you'll 00:03:59.250 --> 00:04:02.590 all visit them and go to Montgomery, Alabama. 00:04:02.889 --> 00:04:07.039 Archbishop Tutu, my friend, called Brian. America's 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:11.020 young Nelson Mandela, and rightly so, Bryan Stevenson, 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.900 thank you so much for joining me today here at 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:17.600 this Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Oh, it's my great 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:19.779 pleasure to be with you. Hey, Bryan, I just have 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:21.839 to say from the beginning, on behalf of myself 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:24.779 and all the listeners and millions and millions 00:04:24.779 --> 00:04:27.259 of people, thank you, thank you, thank you so 00:04:27.259 --> 00:04:30.319 much for being a voice for justice and mercy 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.259 and all the beautiful, holy, inspiring work you 00:04:33.259 --> 00:04:37.850 do. Thank you for everything, Bryan. I appreciate 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:42.850 that. Thank you. So I don't know where to begin. 00:04:43.029 --> 00:04:45.870 And I've been just obsessed with talking about 00:04:45.870 --> 00:04:48.430 you and rereading your book and studying it. 00:04:48.509 --> 00:04:51.689 And, you know, your book is now out, a new 10th 00:04:51.689 --> 00:04:55.329 anniversary edition. Congratulations. It tells 00:04:55.329 --> 00:04:58.629 your story from Harvard to Alabama and meeting 00:04:58.629 --> 00:05:00.949 and working with all those people in prison and 00:05:00.949 --> 00:05:05.189 death row and the rural poor. Wow, taking on 00:05:05.189 --> 00:05:07.949 the white supremacist establishment and systemic 00:05:07.949 --> 00:05:11.449 racial injustice, especially your friend Walter. 00:05:13.329 --> 00:05:16.930 And here we are, 2025, 10 years after your book 00:05:16.930 --> 00:05:19.730 came out, Brian. I think things are worse than 00:05:19.730 --> 00:05:23.350 when you started. I'm 65, been at this for 45 00:05:23.350 --> 00:05:25.870 years, and with our friend Paul Farmer, things 00:05:25.870 --> 00:05:29.029 are as bad as ever. And they're getting rid of 00:05:29.029 --> 00:05:33.639 civil rights and voting rights legislation. Rise 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.379 of white supremacy at a new level with the Trump 00:05:36.379 --> 00:05:39.480 administration moving into full -blown what? 00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:44.360 Oligarchy, fascism, authoritarianism, cutting 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:48.139 any decent programs. I thought we could just 00:05:48.139 --> 00:05:52.139 start, Brian, by you giving us your take on what's 00:05:52.139 --> 00:05:55.660 happening right now in Alabama and the country 00:05:55.660 --> 00:06:00.000 in whatever way you want to talk about it. Well, 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:04.180 thank you. I do think we are in a moment where 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:08.620 the politics of fear and anger are raging. They 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:12.240 are raging in this country, but they're raging 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.740 all around the world. And what's scary about 00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:19.939 that is that when societies allow themselves 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:23.980 to be governed by fear and anger, they start 00:06:23.980 --> 00:06:27.040 tolerating things we should never tolerate. We 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.079 start accepting things we should never accept. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:32.699 When you look at human history, in the worst 00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:36.800 moments of human history, you can evaluate what 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.680 happened during those tragic moments and find 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:44.600 at the core narratives of fear and anger shaping 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:49.860 behavior, shaping policies, shaping the functioning 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:52.680 of government. The Holocaust can't be understood 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:57.370 without understanding how the Nazis... used narratives 00:06:57.370 --> 00:07:00.189 of fear and anger and directed them at people 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:04.129 who are Jewish or people who are gay or people 00:07:04.129 --> 00:07:09.170 who were Roma to create this horrific violence 00:07:09.170 --> 00:07:12.689 and destruction. You know, 30 years ago, we saw 00:07:12.689 --> 00:07:16.250 a genocide in Rwanda where hundreds of thousands 00:07:16.250 --> 00:07:18.569 of people were killed and the narratives of fear 00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:21.389 and anger spread through that country and just 00:07:21.389 --> 00:07:24.430 unconscionable things happened. When I look at 00:07:24.430 --> 00:07:27.660 American history, The parts of our history, the 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:29.540 moments in our history when we did the most destructive 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:33.660 things were being guided by those same narratives 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:36.199 of fear and anger. And we're in the midst of 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:39.519 that now. We have elected leaders that want everybody 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.279 angry, that want everybody fearful. And that 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.259 has put us in this valley that I think you have 00:07:46.259 --> 00:07:49.180 rightly described as a really troubling time. 00:07:49.459 --> 00:07:53.540 And so for me, what that means is that those 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:56.129 of us who don't want to give in. to fear and 00:07:56.129 --> 00:07:59.350 anger have to become hopeful and courageous. 00:07:59.649 --> 00:08:04.050 We have to become faithful truth -tellers. We 00:08:04.050 --> 00:08:07.750 have to stand when people say sit down. We have 00:08:07.750 --> 00:08:11.949 to speak when people say be quiet. The encouraging 00:08:11.949 --> 00:08:15.170 thing to me about this moment is that we've seen 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:20.970 this before. I'm the heir of people who were 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:23.790 enslaved in America, the grandson of people who 00:08:23.790 --> 00:08:25.689 were terrorized during the period of lynching, 00:08:25.829 --> 00:08:29.069 the child of people who were brutalized by segregation. 00:08:29.870 --> 00:08:33.509 And my four parents found a way to cope, to survive, 00:08:33.830 --> 00:08:37.009 to endure, and to resist these narratives of 00:08:37.009 --> 00:08:39.110 fear and anger. I started my education in a colored 00:08:39.110 --> 00:08:41.190 school. They didn't let me go to the public schools. 00:08:41.330 --> 00:08:43.129 When I got to the public schools after integration, 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:46.309 the presumption was I wasn't equipped, wasn't 00:08:46.309 --> 00:08:49.149 capable, wasn't worthy to be there. And you had 00:08:49.149 --> 00:08:52.549 to navigate. A lot of those presumptions. I think 00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:54.570 we're better positioned than we've ever been 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:58.250 before to overcome these narratives of fear and 00:08:58.250 --> 00:09:00.870 anger, but it's going to require some work. It's 00:09:00.870 --> 00:09:02.950 going to require some faith. It's going to require 00:09:02.950 --> 00:09:07.330 some activism. It's going to require some believing 00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:12.330 in our capacity to do better than what we're 00:09:12.330 --> 00:09:15.840 seeing in this particular moment. Thank you. 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:18.879 Maybe we can get more specific a little bit later 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:21.919 on. One of the amazing things about your story 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:27.279 is, you know, you're at Harvard and you back 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:31.440 up and you move to Alabama. And you had that 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.299 kind of faith and courage and willingness to 00:09:35.299 --> 00:09:38.899 stand up and speak out. And you're just one person. 00:09:38.940 --> 00:09:40.960 And then you end up meeting these other good 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:49.019 people. forward and all this hard work is continuing 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:54.440 to bear such good fruit i guess um did you ever 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.059 think so or what is the lesson there that you 00:09:57.059 --> 00:10:01.340 just keep at it and keep uh being hopeful and 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:05.419 stay the course no matter what and watch positive 00:10:05.419 --> 00:10:09.809 good work unfold does that make sense yeah Yeah. 00:10:10.009 --> 00:10:14.350 I mean, I think for me, you know, proximity has 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:18.070 been a source of power. I grew up in a poor, 00:10:18.190 --> 00:10:21.350 racially segregated community. And as I said, 00:10:22.129 --> 00:10:24.230 black kids couldn't go to the public schools. 00:10:24.309 --> 00:10:26.490 Most of the adults that I grew up around didn't 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:28.309 have high school degrees because there were literally 00:10:28.309 --> 00:10:30.450 no high schools for black people in our county 00:10:30.450 --> 00:10:33.950 when they were teenagers. And then lawyers came 00:10:33.950 --> 00:10:37.460 into the community and changed everything. by 00:10:37.460 --> 00:10:39.419 enforcing our commitment to the rule of law. 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:42.580 And because those lawyers got proximate to poor 00:10:42.580 --> 00:10:45.299 black kids like me, I got to go to high school. 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.220 I got to go to college. That's how I got to law 00:10:48.220 --> 00:10:51.799 school. So I was interested in getting proximate 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:54.200 to other people who were disfavored, marginalized, 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.580 excluded, at risk, and doing for them what others 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:02.679 had done. For me, and I wrote in Just Mercy about 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:05.899 how going to death row when I was a law student 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:10.059 completely changed me. Meeting a condemned man 00:11:10.059 --> 00:11:13.759 on death row, sitting down with him and forgetting 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.000 that I was a law student and forgetting that 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.720 he was a condemned prisoner, and just talking 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:23.159 to him for two or three hours, and then getting 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.019 lost in his humanity and the fellowship we were 00:11:26.019 --> 00:11:29.500 creating in that horrid space. And then having 00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:32.379 that visit interrupted by guards who were angry 00:11:32.379 --> 00:11:35.340 that we were laughing and talking and bonding 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:38.299 and came into the room and grabbed him and put 00:11:38.299 --> 00:11:40.759 the handcuffs back on his wrist and wrapped the 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:42.960 chain around his waist and put the metal shackles 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:45.519 on his ankles so violently and started shoving 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.620 him toward the door. To see him treated so badly 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:51.899 and not be able to stop that mistreatment really 00:11:51.899 --> 00:11:54.480 alarmed me. But then he got in front of the door. 00:11:55.049 --> 00:11:57.269 Before he left that room and he turned to me 00:11:57.269 --> 00:11:59.409 and he said, Brian, don't worry about this. You 00:11:59.409 --> 00:12:02.570 just come back. And then he did that thing I'll 00:12:02.570 --> 00:12:05.789 never forget where he closed his eyes, threw 00:12:05.789 --> 00:12:09.049 his head back, and began to sing. And he started 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:11.730 singing the hymn, I'm Pressing on the Upward 00:12:11.730 --> 00:12:14.389 Way. New heights I'm gaining every day, still 00:12:14.389 --> 00:12:16.549 praying as I'm onward bound. And then he said, 00:12:16.649 --> 00:12:19.129 Lord, plant my feet on higher ground. And it 00:12:19.129 --> 00:12:22.059 stunned everyone. The guard stopped. And then 00:12:22.059 --> 00:12:23.820 they recovered and started pushing him down the 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:25.700 hallway. And you could hear the chains clanging, 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:29.200 but you could hear this man singing about higher 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.580 ground. Hearing his song was like a calling from 00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:35.679 God. I knew then that I wanted to help condemned 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:40.039 people get to higher ground. And being proximate 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:42.480 to this condemned man and hearing his song changed 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.340 everything for me. I went back to Harvard Law 00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:45.940 School. You couldn't get me out of the law school 00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:49.370 library. I needed to know everything. about habeas 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:52.009 corpus and res judicata and comedy and federalism 00:12:52.009 --> 00:12:54.669 and all of the jurisprudence necessary to help 00:12:54.669 --> 00:12:57.830 condemned people, and now some 40 -plus years 00:12:57.830 --> 00:13:01.330 later, if I reflect on my career, if I reflect 00:13:01.330 --> 00:13:03.429 on the things I've done, if I've helped anybody 00:13:03.429 --> 00:13:06.029 during my career, if I've made a difference in 00:13:06.029 --> 00:13:08.570 the lives of my clients, it's not because we 00:13:08.570 --> 00:13:10.350 work hard. We try to. It's not because we're 00:13:10.350 --> 00:13:12.450 smart. We try to be smart. It's not because we're 00:13:12.450 --> 00:13:15.059 tactical. We try to do that, too. But if I'm 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:17.059 honest, if I've helped anybody during my career, 00:13:17.139 --> 00:13:20.279 it's because I got close to a condemned man and 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.379 heard his song. And I still believe, Father, 00:13:23.419 --> 00:13:25.820 that in jails and prisons, people are singing. 00:13:25.899 --> 00:13:28.539 In places where people are marginalized and excluded, 00:13:28.779 --> 00:13:31.559 in places where people have been oppressed and 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.379 ignored and mistreated, there are songs still 00:13:34.379 --> 00:13:37.460 being sung. And if we get close enough to hear 00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:39.860 those melodies, to hear the humanity, to hear 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:42.460 God's grace manifest in the lives of people, 00:13:42.460 --> 00:13:46.080 of the poor and those who are disfavored. We 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.980 find power, we find strength, we find knowledge, 00:13:49.100 --> 00:13:52.159 we find wisdom, we find the capacity to make 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.019 a difference. And that is what has sustained 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:59.159 me in Alabama, in my work, is that relationship 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:04.580 to God's children who are often neglected, pushed 00:14:04.580 --> 00:14:08.559 aside, condemned, incarcerated, forgotten. Thank 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.929 you so much, Brian. So we saw just as President 00:14:11.929 --> 00:14:16.730 Biden left office, him commute the sentences 00:14:16.730 --> 00:14:21.309 of 37 people from federal death row. But last 00:14:21.309 --> 00:14:24.870 week as we were recording this, we also saw South 00:14:24.870 --> 00:14:30.190 Carolina execute someone by firing squad. Tell 00:14:30.190 --> 00:14:33.610 me about the death penalty today and your work 00:14:33.610 --> 00:14:37.350 to abolish it and also how it's connected to 00:14:37.350 --> 00:14:42.779 the larger systemic. Racism, mass incarceration, 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.879 police brutality, but also the whole white supremacist 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.220 culture and the country itself. Now, that's a 00:14:50.220 --> 00:14:52.820 big and outrageous question, but I'm just trying 00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:58.000 to, you know what, I'm just, you know, I visited 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:00.919 Jackson, Georgia, too, in the 80s and had a close 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:03.399 friend on death row. And it helped change my 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:06.340 life and used to get Mother Teresa to make phone 00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:11.399 calls. intervene with governors. And so I hear 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:14.960 you. And yet here we are all these years later, 00:15:15.019 --> 00:15:16.820 and there's progress and things are worse at 00:15:16.820 --> 00:15:20.539 the same time. So tell me about that. Yeah, I 00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:23.740 think justice is a constant struggle. You know, 00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:27.679 we never get to a place where we can claim that 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:30.980 we have won and it will never be injustice. It 00:15:30.980 --> 00:15:35.960 is a feature of this world that That inequality 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.639 breeds injustice. It breeds abuse of power. It 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:42.159 breeds excessive violence. And I do think the 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:45.559 death penalty is one of the most dramatic manifestations 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:51.159 of that abuse of power. I have always believed 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.360 that the threshold question that we should be 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:56.220 asking when people think about capital punishment 00:15:56.220 --> 00:16:01.200 is not whether people should deserve to die for 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.200 the crimes they've committed. The threshold question 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.919 should be, Do we deserve to kill when we have 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.440 a flawed system, when we have a system that's 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.500 been compromised by racial bias, when we have 00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:14.120 a system that treats you better if you're rich 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.419 and guilty than if you're poor and innocent? 00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:19.279 And that is the system that we've had. We've 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:22.100 made a lot of progress over the last 10 years 00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:25.000 since I wrote Just Mercy. A bunch of states have 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.639 abolished the death penalty. The number of people 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.100 on death row has dropped considerably. The number 00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:34.440 of executions has dropped. But we are still in 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.100 this struggle. And that execution in South Carolina 00:16:37.100 --> 00:16:42.320 recently is a painful, heartbreaking reminder 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:46.080 of that, where they pulled this man out and lined 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.580 up people with guns who shot him in a firing 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:52.799 squad. We've had executions in Alabama recently 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.279 where they couldn't kill the person with lethal 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:58.570 injection. They kept them on the... gurney for 00:16:58.570 --> 00:17:00.950 hours poking and prodding and were never able 00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:04.549 to successfully kill the person through an injection. 00:17:04.769 --> 00:17:07.490 So they called off that execution and then months 00:17:07.490 --> 00:17:11.130 later took him back and asphyxiated him with 00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:14.250 nitrogen gas until he suffocated and died. And, 00:17:14.250 --> 00:17:18.349 you know, our society calls that justice. I think 00:17:18.349 --> 00:17:23.329 it is a remnant of our long history of using 00:17:23.329 --> 00:17:26.289 violence to maintain certain kinds of power. 00:17:26.910 --> 00:17:29.069 Before Europeans came to this continent, there 00:17:29.069 --> 00:17:31.210 were millions of indigenous peoples here who 00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:34.309 had communities and societies that thrived. And 00:17:34.309 --> 00:17:37.789 within a very short period of time, those indigenous 00:17:37.789 --> 00:17:40.049 peoples were forced off their land. They were 00:17:40.049 --> 00:17:43.970 subjected to violence and abuse, and the population 00:17:43.970 --> 00:17:47.670 dwindled. And in the midst of that, we were creating 00:17:47.670 --> 00:17:49.690 a constitution that talked about equality and 00:17:49.690 --> 00:17:52.009 justice for all, but we didn't apply those concepts 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:54.109 to native people because we said, oh, no, those 00:17:54.109 --> 00:17:56.880 native people, they're different. racially different. 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.640 And this narrative of racial difference was born 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.619 in America. And it was like an infection and 00:18:02.619 --> 00:18:06.180 it spread. And it was that narrative that was 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:11.619 used to justify 246 years of slavery. 10 million 00:18:11.619 --> 00:18:14.799 black people were enslaved. 6 million died enslaved. 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.660 At the end of the Civil War, 4 million were emancipated. 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.960 But the great evil of that era of slavery for 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:24.539 me was this narrative we created. because people 00:18:24.539 --> 00:18:26.640 who enslaved others didn't want to think of themselves 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.359 as immoral or indecent or unchristian. And so 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:32.940 they created a false narrative to help them reckon 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.400 with the violence and the abuse and the suffering 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.200 they saw all around them. And this false narrative 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.920 contended that black people are not as good as 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.240 white people. Black people are less capable, 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.180 less worthy, less human, less evolved. And that 00:18:46.180 --> 00:18:49.630 false narrative... was for me the lasting evil 00:18:49.630 --> 00:18:52.069 of slavery because it survived the Civil War. 00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:54.529 I often argue that the North won the Civil War, 00:18:54.569 --> 00:18:57.089 but the South won the narrative war. And after 00:18:57.089 --> 00:18:59.609 emancipation, Black people were still presumed 00:18:59.609 --> 00:19:03.309 inferior, unworthy. And that's why our efforts 00:19:03.309 --> 00:19:06.450 during Reconstruction failed. And for a century 00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.650 following the Civil War, Black people were pulled 00:19:08.650 --> 00:19:10.769 out of their homes, beaten, drowned, tortured, 00:19:10.890 --> 00:19:13.170 and lynched. And when you understand that history, 00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:15.029 it's hard to understand how could people in this 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:18.960 country tolerate that sort of mob violence, torturing 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.839 people, subjecting people to horrific violence, 00:19:21.940 --> 00:19:24.140 burning them alive, all of this horrible stuff. 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:26.319 And Congress didn't do anything. Law enforcement 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:28.839 didn't do anything. And you can't understand 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.460 that without understanding this narrative of 00:19:31.460 --> 00:19:34.660 racial hierarchy, of white supremacy. And that's 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:37.380 what created the codified segregation that shaped 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:41.279 my early years, this Jim Crow era. And courageous 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.049 people responded. Dr. King and Rosa Parks and 00:19:45.049 --> 00:19:47.390 so many others came together here in Montgomery 00:19:47.390 --> 00:19:50.390 and began a movement that tore down the legal 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:53.910 architecture of segregation and Jim Crow, but 00:19:53.910 --> 00:19:56.670 the narrative persisted. And that's why here 00:19:56.670 --> 00:19:59.549 in 2025, we're still dealing with manifestations 00:19:59.549 --> 00:20:03.250 of that narrative, a hostility to diversity, 00:20:03.529 --> 00:20:07.569 a hostility to equality, a nervousness about 00:20:07.569 --> 00:20:09.710 treating people equally and fairly because that 00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:12.710 might diminish the power of some. while creating 00:20:12.710 --> 00:20:16.670 opportunities for others. It's tragic that even 00:20:16.670 --> 00:20:20.490 in 2025, you can be talented, you can be wealthy, 00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:22.970 you can be gifted, you can be a priest, you can 00:20:22.970 --> 00:20:25.710 be a pastor, you can be kind, you can be loving, 00:20:25.789 --> 00:20:27.509 but if you're black or brown, you'll go places 00:20:27.509 --> 00:20:30.730 where you have to navigate this presumption of 00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:33.190 dangerousness and guilt. And because I'm getting 00:20:33.190 --> 00:20:35.650 older, I can tell you, when you constantly navigate 00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:39.180 these presumptions, it's exhausting. And that 00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:42.220 is why I think we need an era of truth and justice, 00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:44.940 truth and repair, truth and reconciliation, truth 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:48.799 and restoration. Without truth -telling, we cannot 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.460 free ourselves from the burden of this history. 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:53.819 Truth -telling will lead us away from the death 00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:56.599 penalty. It's when we tell the truth that we'll 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:58.900 be able to understand that we are all more than 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:01.599 the worst thing we've ever done. Truth will cause 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.599 us to recognize that if someone tells a lie, 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:05.460 they're not just a liar. If someone takes something, 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:07.619 they're not just a thief. That even if you kill 00:21:07.619 --> 00:21:10.880 someone, You're not just a killer. And that is 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.640 the era. That is the movement that I'm really 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.960 hoping we can advance in this moment, because 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.940 I continue to believe that truth is the antidote 00:21:21.940 --> 00:21:25.079 to quelling fear and anger. It's the antidote 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.079 to the abuse of power that we see all around 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:30.119 us. Truth will set us free. And I think people 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.380 of faith have a critical role to play in this, 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:36.180 because we know that we can't be afraid to be 00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:39.089 honest about our mistakes. In my church, you 00:21:39.089 --> 00:21:41.109 can't come in there and say, I want heaven and 00:21:41.109 --> 00:21:44.069 redemption and salvation and all these wonderful 00:21:44.069 --> 00:21:46.170 things, but I'm not prepared to admit to anything. 00:21:46.369 --> 00:21:49.089 I'm not prepared to confess any wrongdoing. We 00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:53.089 know that confession and repentance is what opens 00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:56.190 our heart to grace and mercy. And we just have 00:21:56.190 --> 00:21:58.349 a lot of brothers and sisters in this country 00:21:58.349 --> 00:22:01.589 that haven't accepted that, that don't believe 00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:03.789 that, and they're allowing their anger and their 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:06.509 fear to shape their decision -making, their voting, 00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:09.579 their beliefs. There are hostilities toward people 00:22:09.579 --> 00:22:12.299 who are different. And that's the challenge that 00:22:12.299 --> 00:22:14.720 we face. And to me, the death penalty is just 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.759 the most violent and heartbreaking manifestation 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.920 of that challenge. But we are in a moment where 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.920 I think we have the capacity to do more and to 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.279 do better. Well, thank you so much, Brian, for 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:32.259 your eloquent reflection. I wanted to ask you 00:22:32.259 --> 00:22:36.289 about your friend. Walter McMillian. He's the 00:22:36.289 --> 00:22:38.690 center of your book, Just Mercy, and the center 00:22:38.690 --> 00:22:46.710 of the movie, played by Jamie Foxx. So he was 00:22:46.710 --> 00:22:49.509 an innocent man condemned to death for a terrible 00:22:49.509 --> 00:22:53.670 crime, which he didn't do, and you, and mobilizing 00:22:53.670 --> 00:22:57.269 all kinds of people were able to get him off 00:22:57.269 --> 00:23:00.029 death row, and he died maybe 10 or 12 years ago. 00:23:00.269 --> 00:23:03.180 And I thought maybe... So anything you would 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:06.940 like to share with us, with me about Walter, 00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:09.319 because he embodied the stuff you're calling 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:13.079 all of us to. And to do that, let me read to 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:16.779 you and for the listeners the very end of Brian's 00:23:16.779 --> 00:23:20.940 magnificent book, Just Mercy, because it gets 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:24.420 into the question, Brian, what is just mercy 00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:28.579 and what Walter taught you? So what I'm reading 00:23:28.579 --> 00:23:33.180 here is Brian's. Brian ends his book telling 00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:37.279 about what he said at Walter's funeral. Quote, 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:39.700 I told the congregation that Walter's case had 00:23:39.700 --> 00:23:41.680 taught me that the death penalty is not about 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.799 whether people deserve to die for the crimes 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:46.920 they commit. The real question of capital punishment 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:51.480 in this country is, do we deserve to kill? I 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:53.759 told those gathered in the church that Walter 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:57.140 had taught me that mercy is just. when it is 00:23:57.140 --> 00:24:00.440 rooted in hopefulness and freely given. Mercy 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.740 is most empowering, liberating, and transformative 00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:07.980 when it is directed at the undeserving. The people 00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:10.099 who haven't earned it, who haven't even sought 00:24:10.099 --> 00:24:13.420 it, are the most meaningful recipients of our 00:24:13.420 --> 00:24:18.990 compassion. genuinely forgave the people who 00:24:18.990 --> 00:24:21.549 unfairly accused him, the people who convicted 00:24:21.549 --> 00:24:24.230 him, and the people who had judged him unworthy 00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:28.069 of mercy. And in the end, it was just mercy toward 00:24:28.069 --> 00:24:30.970 others that allowed him to recover a life worth 00:24:30.970 --> 00:24:33.990 celebrating, a life that rediscovered the love 00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:36.930 and freedom that all humans desire, a life that 00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:39.990 overcame death and condemnation until it was 00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:44.089 time to die on God's schedule. Tell us about 00:24:44.089 --> 00:24:50.799 Walter. Yeah, Walter did teach me a lot. He was 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:56.380 humble. He was honest. And he kept the faith. 00:24:56.619 --> 00:24:58.920 I mean, I was a very young lawyer when I started 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:02.759 working on his case. And he believed in me. He 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:07.240 gave me the confidence to believe that if he 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:08.819 thought I could do it, then I have to think I 00:25:08.819 --> 00:25:10.759 can do it too. And there were so many obstacles 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:13.740 in that case. I got death threats and our office 00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:16.470 was... getting bomb threats. So many people were 00:25:16.470 --> 00:25:21.589 angry that I chose to stand near him. But his 00:25:21.589 --> 00:25:26.250 spirit, his humanity, his dignity, his worth 00:25:26.250 --> 00:25:29.970 as a human being made me understand that standing 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:32.569 next to the condemned, standing next to people 00:25:32.569 --> 00:25:35.269 who are hated, standing next to people who are 00:25:35.269 --> 00:25:39.450 disfavored creates an opportunity to harness 00:25:39.450 --> 00:25:44.950 grace, to harness love. to harness dignity and 00:25:44.950 --> 00:25:48.589 create something beautiful. I mean, I think about 00:25:48.589 --> 00:25:52.690 my relationship with Walter and it makes me smile 00:25:52.690 --> 00:25:56.289 because, you know, we found a way to love one 00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:58.809 another and care for one another in circumstances 00:25:58.809 --> 00:26:02.430 that most people don't associate with love or 00:26:02.430 --> 00:26:07.730 compassion. And I think his whole community made 00:26:07.730 --> 00:26:10.519 me understand. When I represent someone on death 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:12.200 row, I'm not just representing an individual. 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.119 I feel like I'm representing all the people who 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:17.220 have been wrongly condemned, all the people who 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:19.539 have been unfairly accused, all of the families 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:21.980 that have suffered and struggled in silence because 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:25.880 their humanity has been undermined by misjudgment, 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:31.259 by bigotry. And in that regard, it's a holy quest. 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:36.200 It's a greater struggle than the... parameters 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:40.259 of a single case. And when we prevail, when we're 00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:44.059 able to win freedom, it feels like a bigger victory 00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:48.539 than just the release of one person. I have always 00:26:48.539 --> 00:26:53.559 been persuaded from the prophets, Micah 6, that 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:57.279 God requires of us to do justice and to love 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:03.190 mercy and to walk humbly. And Walter helped me 00:27:03.190 --> 00:27:06.250 understand the power of that, the urgency of 00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:09.890 that, the beauty of that. And he will forever 00:27:09.890 --> 00:27:12.670 be in my heart. Oh, that's so beautiful. I'm 00:27:12.670 --> 00:27:16.470 so glad I asked you that you brought out about 00:27:16.470 --> 00:27:20.930 Micah. So one of your biggest fans is my friend 00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:23.470 who I did the first podcast with, the actor Martin 00:27:23.470 --> 00:27:26.430 Sheen, and I was telling him about you. He just 00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:29.230 thinks your book is magnificent as it is. And 00:27:29.230 --> 00:27:31.029 I was telling him how much I loved the movie. 00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:34.650 I hope you'll laugh, Brian. He said, oh, I was 00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:37.329 so disappointed in that movie. I just couldn't 00:27:37.329 --> 00:27:41.829 believe it. He was upset because he thought the 00:27:41.829 --> 00:27:45.529 scene that you have in the book, which doesn't 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:47.769 appear in the movie, was one of the most powerful 00:27:47.769 --> 00:27:50.789 he'd ever seen. So I want you to tell a little 00:27:50.789 --> 00:27:53.599 bit about it, if you would. This is a story, 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:57.019 it's almost in passing, really. One of the horrible 00:27:57.019 --> 00:27:59.740 trips you're making way out to the prison and 00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:02.160 you get there and there's this truck and it's 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.259 covered with Ku Klux Klan bumper stickers and 00:28:05.259 --> 00:28:07.440 all of that. And then you get in there and meet 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:11.640 the guard and you just can't get any more horrible 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.319 than this big white guy who's clearly like a 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.960 member of the Klan and so forth. And he forces 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.299 you into strip search and he's just... about 00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:23.039 as cruel and inhuman as can be. And this goes 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.359 on. You have to keep doing this. And then he 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.359 brings, I think, Walter into the trial. He's 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:31.299 there for three days, this guard. Here's the 00:28:31.299 --> 00:28:35.079 innocence of Walter, as I remember. And then 00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.900 you go back to the prison the next time, and 00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:41.839 he's kind of a different person. And Martin is 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.839 very interested, like I am, in how that kind 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:48.380 of transformation happens. It's really about 00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:51.200 Kingian nonviolence. Can you reflect, tell us 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:52.880 that story and reflect on what it meant for you? 00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:59.900 Sure. Yeah. I mean, particularly in the 90s, 00:28:59.900 --> 00:29:01.900 you'd go into these places and there would be 00:29:01.900 --> 00:29:05.259 a lot of hostility. There weren't a lot of black 00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:08.099 lawyers going into these spaces. And this was 00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:11.339 a particular day when I parked in the prison 00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:13.519 lot and there was a truck covered with all of 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:15.680 these bumper stickers that were just horrific. 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.339 One of the bumper stickers read, quote, if I'd 00:29:19.339 --> 00:29:21.059 known it was going to be like this, I'd have 00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:24.440 picked my own cotton. And it was alarming to 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:26.980 me to see that and the Confederate flags and 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:30.599 the iconography of hate and resistance to integration 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:34.160 plastered all over this truck. And when I went 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.680 inside, this correctional officer was so hostile. 00:29:38.259 --> 00:29:41.180 He didn't believe I was a lawyer. He made me 00:29:41.180 --> 00:29:44.480 go into the bathroom and subject. myself to a 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:46.440 strip search, which no lawyer should ever have 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.880 to do. He just tried to humiliate me. And before 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.740 I went to go see my client, he made a point of 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.819 telling me that the truck in the parking lot 00:29:54.819 --> 00:29:57.920 that I likely saw, that was his truck. And it 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:00.579 unnerved me. And I actually wasn't seeing Walter 00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:03.440 that day. I was seeing another man who was very 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.099 severely mentally ill. And he had all kinds of 00:30:07.099 --> 00:30:11.349 issues. And when I got there, he asked me, if 00:30:11.349 --> 00:30:13.490 I had brought him a chocolate milkshake. It was 00:30:13.490 --> 00:30:16.170 the first time I'd met him. And I just thought 00:30:16.170 --> 00:30:18.869 it was the craziest thing. And I said, no, I'm 00:30:18.869 --> 00:30:21.930 your lawyer. I'm here to help you in your case. 00:30:22.049 --> 00:30:24.009 And he seemed really despondent and disappointed. 00:30:24.309 --> 00:30:25.930 I didn't bring him this milkshake. And then I 00:30:25.930 --> 00:30:29.210 realized he was suffering from mental illness 00:30:29.210 --> 00:30:32.029 and mental health problems. And I promised I 00:30:32.029 --> 00:30:33.910 would try to bring him a milkshake the next time. 00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:35.730 And that was the only way he could engage with 00:30:35.730 --> 00:30:38.769 me. And the prison never let me do that. And 00:30:38.769 --> 00:30:41.630 it finally was time to go to court in his case. 00:30:41.690 --> 00:30:44.750 And that hostile guard was in the courtroom. 00:30:44.869 --> 00:30:47.390 And he heard the testimony presented over those 00:30:47.390 --> 00:30:50.789 three days about how this man had been in 29 00:30:50.789 --> 00:30:53.930 foster homes by the time he was 10, about how 00:30:53.930 --> 00:30:56.910 he started abusing drugs to deal with untreated 00:30:56.910 --> 00:31:00.549 schizophrenia, untreated bipolar disorder, untreated 00:31:00.549 --> 00:31:04.009 psychotic conditions, and about the tragedy that 00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:06.900 surrounded the crime when he was. hallucinating 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:11.019 and psychotic. And the next time I went back 00:31:11.019 --> 00:31:13.039 to the prison to see this client, the guard was 00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:16.180 completely changed. And he didn't make me sign 00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:18.359 in. He didn't make me strip. He didn't do any 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:20.279 of those things. He just took me to the door 00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:23.720 of the prison area, the visitation area. And 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.259 then he stopped me and told me that he had been 00:31:26.259 --> 00:31:29.380 in court when we presented our evidence. And 00:31:29.380 --> 00:31:32.740 then he said, I just need to tell you that I 00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:35.519 think what you're doing is a good thing. And 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:39.000 then he said, I realized that I'm a very angry 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.319 person. He said, I didn't think anybody had it 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:44.160 worse than I've had it. But listening to the 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.519 evidence in that case, I realized your client 00:31:46.519 --> 00:31:50.059 had it worse than me. And he said, I just want 00:31:50.059 --> 00:31:52.519 you to know, I think you're doing a good thing 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:54.500 and I want to shake your hand. And I couldn't 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:57.259 believe it. And I shook his hand and I was about 00:31:57.259 --> 00:31:59.079 to go inside. And that's when he grabbed me by 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:00.519 the arm. He said, oh, one more thing, one more 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:02.859 thing. I said, what's that? He said, well, on 00:32:02.859 --> 00:32:05.660 the way back from the courthouse. to the prison, 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:10.039 I took an exit and I took your client to a Wendy's 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:13.619 and I bought him a chocolate milkshake. And it 00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:18.079 just moved me in ways that very few things do. 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.420 And when I got to see my client, it was the first 00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:23.539 time he never asked for a milkshake. That guard 00:32:23.539 --> 00:32:26.359 left that prison shortly after that. But it's 00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:31.099 the reason why I believe that we have to show 00:32:31.099 --> 00:32:33.500 mercy. We have to do justice. We have to love 00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:36.269 mercy. for the undeserving, for the people who 00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:38.369 don't treat us the way they should treat us, 00:32:38.410 --> 00:32:40.170 for the people who are falling down, for the 00:32:40.170 --> 00:32:44.430 people who are struggling. And that encounter 00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:48.049 reminded me of that. It reinforced that for me. 00:32:48.289 --> 00:32:52.329 And it's one of the many acts of grace and mercy 00:32:52.329 --> 00:32:56.470 and love that I see along this journey, which 00:32:56.470 --> 00:33:00.299 from a distance may look really horrible. painful 00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:02.940 and ugly. And there are aspects of it which are 00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:05.660 horrible, painful and ugly. But in the midst 00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:09.200 of that, you also encounter grace and mercy and 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:13.940 beauty and redemption and love. And that is absolutely 00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:18.079 what sustains me. Thank you. Wow. I know the 00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.279 time is coming to an end, but I've got to ask 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.500 you two more questions. One is, Brian, I've been... 00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:27.359 So I'm an activist and a priest, and I've spent 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.519 about a year of my life in prison. And I have 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.380 many felony convictions for hammering on nuclear 00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:39.619 weapons and all. And all along, as a student 00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:42.660 of Gandhi and Dr. King, I have been publicly 00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:46.740 teaching around the world in my books. As Gandhi 00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:49.619 said, that Jesus was the greatest person of nonviolence 00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:51.900 in history, and therefore all Christians are 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:55.359 called to be totally nonviolent. And so, Brian, 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:59.019 this is why Paul Farmer was such an encourager 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:02.779 of me, because, of course, every day of my life, 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.059 Christians are telling me, oh, no, you got to 00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:09.280 kill somebody. So I just want to ask your thoughts 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:13.719 about the nonviolence of Jesus. And what it means 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.860 to be on a spiritual journey, I think you're 00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:21.699 a Christian, I don't know, but Kingian nonviolence, 00:34:21.820 --> 00:34:25.300 gospel nonviolence, if Gandhi is right that Jesus 00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:28.099 is the greatest person of nonviolence in history, 00:34:28.539 --> 00:34:32.539 wow, everything has to change in terms of the 00:34:32.539 --> 00:34:38.820 religious -based, religious support of not just 00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:43.099 racism. But nuclear weapons and destruction of 00:34:43.099 --> 00:34:45.119 the planet, everything, everything, all violence. 00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:48.280 What do you think? Yes, I absolutely believe 00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:53.579 that. I absolutely believe that. I think accepting 00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:57.500 violence, participating in violence is a curse. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:01.840 And I think we become disconnected from the things 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:06.159 that will allow us to get close to God. You know, 00:35:06.179 --> 00:35:09.610 living here in Montgomery. being a student of 00:35:09.610 --> 00:35:12.889 the civil rights movement, it was the commitment 00:35:12.889 --> 00:35:15.630 of people in this community to nonviolence that 00:35:15.630 --> 00:35:19.489 ultimately tore down the legal architecture of 00:35:19.489 --> 00:35:22.650 segregation. And in this moment, with the politics 00:35:22.650 --> 00:35:25.289 of fear and anger, I think we have to talk more 00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:30.650 about our values and our character. I do not 00:35:30.650 --> 00:35:32.809 believe in violence. I think that violence is 00:35:32.809 --> 00:35:36.280 a pathway to destruction and abuse. It will create 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.920 hatred. It will create burdens that it will be 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.880 very, very hard to free ourselves from. So we 00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:44.840 have to commit to nonviolence. I think we have 00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:47.820 to commit to being against bigotry in all of 00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:51.820 its forms. We cannot hate. And I think we have 00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:56.199 to commit to appreciating one another rather 00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:59.679 than diminishing one another. And so for me, 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:03.989 yes, that is essential to my faith. You know, 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:07.070 after emancipation, four million formerly enslaved 00:36:07.070 --> 00:36:12.010 people could have absolutely wanted revenge and 00:36:12.010 --> 00:36:14.050 retribution against those who had enslaved them. 00:36:14.150 --> 00:36:18.809 They could have chosen to seek violence against 00:36:18.809 --> 00:36:21.170 the very people that had separated them from 00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:23.150 their children and their parents and their spouses. 00:36:23.269 --> 00:36:26.489 But that remarkable community of people, faithful 00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:30.550 people, truly Christian people, chose citizenship. 00:36:31.289 --> 00:36:33.349 They started building churches. They started 00:36:33.349 --> 00:36:36.409 building schools. They said, no, we're not going 00:36:36.409 --> 00:36:39.309 to give in to the instincts that justify violence. 00:36:39.349 --> 00:36:41.570 We're going to show a new way. And I feel very 00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:44.670 connected to that narrative, to that community. 00:36:44.690 --> 00:36:47.650 My great grandparents were enslaved in Virginia, 00:36:47.789 --> 00:36:50.610 but they rejected violence and chose education 00:36:50.610 --> 00:36:54.530 and love and faith. My grandparents were terrorized. 00:36:54.530 --> 00:36:56.630 They saw violence all around them, but they rejected 00:36:56.630 --> 00:37:00.110 that. And segregation is violent. You know, those 00:37:00.110 --> 00:37:03.409 signs that said whites only and black people 00:37:03.409 --> 00:37:05.190 to the back and all of that, they weren't just 00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:07.670 directions. They were assaults. They created 00:37:07.670 --> 00:37:11.170 injuries and wounds and scars. And many of us 00:37:11.170 --> 00:37:14.869 bear those scars today. But we have chosen not 00:37:14.869 --> 00:37:17.070 to retaliate because we know that that's only 00:37:17.070 --> 00:37:18.969 going to be a curse for us. Violence is like 00:37:18.969 --> 00:37:21.949 hate. It weighs you down. And so I absolutely 00:37:21.949 --> 00:37:26.340 embrace. nonviolence as not just a philosophy, 00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:29.320 not just an orientation, but as a tenet of my 00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:33.599 faith, as an essential feature of what it means 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:37.039 to be a follower, to be a believer, to be a faithful 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.619 person. Well, thank you so much, Brian. Well, 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:41.920 Brian, I have about 50 more questions for you, 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:44.320 but I can't ask them, so you're off the hook. 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:46.199 But I'm going to ask you a last question about 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:49.460 hope. So I'm going through your book, and all 00:37:49.460 --> 00:37:52.320 of a sudden you start talking about Vaclav Havel. 00:37:53.670 --> 00:37:57.110 I'm going to quote to you from page 219, the 00:37:57.110 --> 00:38:00.809 great Czech leader. And he said that the one 00:38:00.809 --> 00:38:04.349 thing people struggling in Eastern Europe during 00:38:04.349 --> 00:38:06.769 Soviet domination, the one thing they needed 00:38:06.769 --> 00:38:09.809 was hope. And you were very moved and inspired 00:38:09.809 --> 00:38:13.489 by that. And I'm not sure about hope these days 00:38:13.489 --> 00:38:15.809 in this terrible moment we're living through. 00:38:16.010 --> 00:38:18.630 But then you quote Havel as saying that there 00:38:18.630 --> 00:38:21.949 were a lot of things people wanted. But there 00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:24.250 was only one thing they needed, and that was 00:38:24.250 --> 00:38:28.369 hope. But it wasn't pie in the sky, and it wasn't 00:38:28.369 --> 00:38:31.590 optimism over pessimism, but rather, and here's 00:38:31.590 --> 00:38:36.190 your quote, an orientation of the spirit. The 00:38:36.190 --> 00:38:38.489 kind of quote, the kind of hope that creates 00:38:38.489 --> 00:38:41.210 a willingness to position oneself in a hopeless 00:38:41.210 --> 00:38:44.250 place, which is what you've done, and be a witness, 00:38:44.469 --> 00:38:47.409 which is what you are, that allows one to believe 00:38:47.409 --> 00:38:49.929 in a better future, even in the face of abusive 00:38:49.929 --> 00:38:54.900 power. That kind of hope makes one strong. Tell 00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:58.579 me about that, Brian. Yeah, I'm persuaded by 00:38:58.579 --> 00:39:03.500 that. I believe that hopelessness is the enemy 00:39:03.500 --> 00:39:06.780 of justice. I think injustice prevails where 00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:10.280 hopelessness persists. So hope, for me, it's 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.460 our superpower. It's the thing that will allow 00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:15.579 us to do the things that other people think we 00:39:15.579 --> 00:39:20.210 cannot do. I mean, I never imagined. at the start 00:39:20.210 --> 00:39:23.829 of my journey that we would be able to help so 00:39:23.829 --> 00:39:26.170 many people, that we'd win cases at the U .S. 00:39:26.210 --> 00:39:28.809 Supreme Court, that thousands of people would 00:39:28.809 --> 00:39:30.730 get their sentences reduced based on some of 00:39:30.730 --> 00:39:33.469 our advocacy. I never imagined that we would 00:39:33.469 --> 00:39:37.449 create this landscape of memorials and museums 00:39:37.449 --> 00:39:41.769 and monuments that are calling people to recognize 00:39:41.769 --> 00:39:44.190 the harm of our history of racial injustice. 00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:48.039 and racial inequality. And now hundreds of thousands 00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:50.980 of people are coming and appear to be so moved. 00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:55.440 And so I'm mystified sometimes by where I've 00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:59.179 gotten, but I am persuaded that my journey forward, 00:39:59.300 --> 00:40:02.420 wherever that takes me, has to be rooted in hope. 00:40:02.780 --> 00:40:05.139 I stand on the shoulders of people who did so 00:40:05.139 --> 00:40:07.539 much more with so much less. I don't feel like 00:40:07.539 --> 00:40:11.079 I can ever allow hopelessness to shape my thinking, 00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.460 to guide my steps. And my faith is rooted in 00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:17.500 hope as well. And so, yes, I absolutely believe 00:40:17.500 --> 00:40:20.440 that hope is the essential ingredient. It's the 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:23.960 secret that we have to carry deep in our hearts. 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:25.780 And the people who have blessed me the most, 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.800 the people who have inspired me the most, people 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:32.139 like John Lewis, people like Paul Farmer, people 00:40:32.139 --> 00:40:35.000 like Tony Campola was a teacher of mine. I hear 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.559 them still speaking in my ear. They are still. 00:40:40.429 --> 00:40:43.690 In my heart, they're still feeding my soul, and 00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:45.869 the words they have for me are words of hope 00:40:45.869 --> 00:40:48.469 and affirmation, and that's what I want to give 00:40:48.469 --> 00:40:51.369 to others as I journey onward as well. Thank 00:40:51.369 --> 00:40:53.269 you, Brian. Is there any last thing you'd like 00:40:53.269 --> 00:40:56.969 to share with our listeners? Just that I'm honored 00:40:56.969 --> 00:40:59.230 to speak with you, Father, and I'm so grateful 00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:03.230 for all of your work, your ministry, your activism, 00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:06.130 the beauty of your Spirit. It's a real honor 00:41:06.130 --> 00:41:08.679 to speak with you. Well, thank you so much, Brian 00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:12.099 Stevenson, for speaking with me today. And I 00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:14.539 hope we can always be friends, Brian. And whatever 00:41:14.539 --> 00:41:17.159 I can do for you, let me know. And I hope you'll 00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.420 speak with me again someday because I have that 00:41:20.420 --> 00:41:23.860 rest of those long list of questions for you. 00:41:25.330 --> 00:41:28.949 So thanks, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:41:28.949 --> 00:41:32.230 Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts and 00:41:32.230 --> 00:41:35.590 find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter 00:41:35.590 --> 00:41:38.829 .org. And please consider offering a donation 00:41:38.829 --> 00:41:41.929 to support this free work. And if you can, please 00:41:41.929 --> 00:41:45.170 leave some positive feedback or review on Apple 00:41:45.170 --> 00:41:47.250 or Spotify or the National Catholic Reporter. 00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:51.360 And join me next time, and may the God of peace 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:54.420 bless us all. Keep on following the nonviolent 00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:57.039 Jesus, everybody, and I'll see you then. God 00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:57.300 bless.