WEBVTT 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.519 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:20.140 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:23.660 with my friend Shane Claiborne, author, theologian, 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:27.219 popular speaker, and founder of Red Letter Christians, 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:29.199 which I highly recommend if you haven't checked 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.920 it out, redletterchristians .org, and the Simple 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:35.079 Way community. And we're going to talk about 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:38.039 following the nonviolent Jesus through public 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:41.880 organizing, action, and resistance. This podcast 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:48.179 is a project of www .beatitudescenter .org, where 00:00:48.179 --> 00:00:50.359 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.579 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:53.579 --> 00:00:55.979 practicing peace and justice and nonviolence 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.460 and working for a more just, peaceful world. 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:01.640 So let's begin with a little two -second prayer. 00:01:02.060 --> 00:01:04.599 So I invite all those who are listening, wherever 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:08.319 you are, to just take a deep breath and to relax. 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:12.540 and to recenter yourself, and together let's 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:15.939 all enter into the presence of the God of peace 00:01:15.939 --> 00:01:20.219 who loves you infinitely and personally, and 00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:22.560 every human being, all our sisters and brothers, 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:25.480 and let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:29.120 us now and ask for the grace to follow him ever 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.519 more faithfully that we might do God's will of 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:40.890 peace and justice. God of peace. Thank you for 00:01:40.890 --> 00:01:43.069 all the blessings of life and love and peace 00:01:43.069 --> 00:01:46.189 that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect 00:01:46.189 --> 00:01:49.510 on the nonviolence of Jesus and how we can better 00:01:49.510 --> 00:01:52.790 follow him today as activists, organizers, and 00:01:52.790 --> 00:01:55.810 nonviolent resistors in this culture of violence 00:01:55.810 --> 00:01:58.670 and greed and death and destruction. Bless us. 00:01:59.069 --> 00:02:03.310 inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send 00:02:03.310 --> 00:02:05.650 us out to do your will and proclaim your way 00:02:05.650 --> 00:02:08.509 of peace, love, justice, and nonviolence, that 00:02:08.509 --> 00:02:12.650 we might all together do our part to help you 00:02:12.650 --> 00:02:16.889 end war, poverty, violence, racism, greed, oligarchy, 00:02:17.030 --> 00:02:19.030 nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction, 00:02:19.270 --> 00:02:22.930 that we might be your beatitude people of universal 00:02:22.930 --> 00:02:26.870 love, universal compassion, and universal peace. 00:02:27.069 --> 00:02:31.560 In Jesus' name. Amen. Well, it's my great pleasure 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:34.740 today to welcome my friend Shane Claiborne. Shane, 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:37.360 I think, is one of the great peacemakers of our 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.500 time. He graduated from Eastern University and 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:43.860 did graduate work at Princeton Seminary. His 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:45.740 adventures have taken him from the streets of 00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:48.319 Calcutta, where he worked with Mother Teresa, 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:51.800 to the wealthy suburbs of Chicago, where he served 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:55.699 at the megachurch Willow Creek. As a peacemaker, 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.280 he's been in some of the most troubled places 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:03.199 in the world, from Rwanda to the West Bank, serious 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:06.780 time in Iraq, and together we went to Afghanistan. 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.259 Shane heads up Red Letter Christians, as I said, 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:12.680 a movement of Christians committed to living 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:14.879 out the lifestyle prescribed in the Gospels. 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.259 And Shane is the founder of The Simple Way, a 00:03:18.259 --> 00:03:20.580 community in inner -city Philadelphia. He's married 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:24.439 to Katie Joy, and they have a... Katie Jo, and 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:27.979 they have a new baby boy. Shane writes and travels 00:03:27.979 --> 00:03:31.000 extensively speaking about peacemaking, social 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.659 justice, and Jesus. His many best -selling books 00:03:34.659 --> 00:03:38.639 include Jesus for President, Red Letter Revolution, 00:03:39.219 --> 00:03:44.080 Common Prayer, Follow Me to Freedom, Jesus, Bombs, 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.300 and Ice Cream, Becoming the Answer to Our Prayers, 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:50.460 Executing Grace, which is a brilliant book on 00:03:50.460 --> 00:03:53.150 the death penalty, and Beating Guns. Brilliant 00:03:53.150 --> 00:03:56.150 book on gun violence. And then his great classic 00:03:56.150 --> 00:04:00.090 work, The Irresistible Revolution. His newest 00:04:00.090 --> 00:04:03.569 book is Rethinking Life. Shane, thanks so much 00:04:03.569 --> 00:04:07.770 for being with me today. Oh, my brother. It is 00:04:07.770 --> 00:04:10.870 so good. I'm still praying that may we be your 00:04:10.870 --> 00:04:13.889 B attitude people. Well, come on, Shane. Isn't 00:04:13.889 --> 00:04:16.089 that great? So we're going to jump right into 00:04:16.089 --> 00:04:20.430 the deep end, okay? I'm ready. All right. I expect 00:04:20.430 --> 00:04:25.959 nothing less. We're going to need several hours, 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:29.240 dear friends who are listening. I hope, yeah, 00:04:29.259 --> 00:04:33.560 the two of us, once we get going. We're up to 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.680 our ears in oligarchy and empire and white supremacy 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.540 and injustice and corporate greed and permanent 00:04:41.540 --> 00:04:44.300 warfare and lies and nuclear weapons and environmental 00:04:44.300 --> 00:04:47.319 destruction. I am not done. Trump, the Republican 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.939 Party, Fox News, it can go on and on. Meanwhile. 00:04:51.709 --> 00:04:53.910 Here we are called to follow the most radical 00:04:53.910 --> 00:04:57.069 nonviolent revolutionary in history, Jesus of 00:04:57.069 --> 00:05:03.250 Nazareth. So that's why I thought, well, last 00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:07.029 week Brian McLaren was teaching us about authoritarianism. 00:05:07.410 --> 00:05:10.449 And next week I'm going to talk about Luke 10, 00:05:10.589 --> 00:05:13.990 how Jesus built a bottom -up grassroots movement. 00:05:14.410 --> 00:05:17.089 And I wanted to hear you reflect on following 00:05:17.089 --> 00:05:20.699 Jesus through. Public organizing and action and 00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:23.720 resistance, which you do so well. So I wanted 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:27.660 to first invite you. Basically, it's the topic 00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:30.100 of how we as Christians have to become activists, 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.819 organizers, and nonviolent resistors as part 00:05:34.819 --> 00:05:38.240 of our faith life, as disciples of Jesus. I always 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.259 say, I know this is stupid, Shane, but Jesus 00:05:41.259 --> 00:05:44.360 did not sit back and do nothing. He got up and 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:48.160 went forward. took on the empire and led a movement, 00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:51.839 and we have to do the same. So can you reflect 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:54.360 on any way you want to start on the nonviolence 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.639 of Jesus, Jesus as a resistor and activist and 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:02.620 an organizer and going public, as Dan Berrigan 00:06:02.620 --> 00:06:09.259 taught me? Oh, goodness. Well, the place I would 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:13.319 start is, I mean, for me, John, as you know, 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:18.600 A part of what happens is the closer we are to 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:23.500 the pain, the more urgent it is to respond to 00:06:23.500 --> 00:06:26.279 it. And so I think a lot of times in the church, 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:31.339 it's not so much a compassion problem as a proximity 00:06:31.339 --> 00:06:35.519 problem and a relationship disconnect, because 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.980 we've grown a little bit distant from the people 00:06:38.980 --> 00:06:44.459 who are most impacted by injustice. One of the 00:06:44.459 --> 00:06:47.779 starting points for me is being near to those 00:06:47.779 --> 00:06:51.060 who are hurting. You know, Mother Teresa, she 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:54.879 once said, it can be very fashionable to talk 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:57.819 about the poor, but not as fashionable to talk 00:06:57.819 --> 00:07:02.399 to them, to know them. And so, I mean, for me, 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:05.500 that's been what puts a fire in my bones around 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:08.800 so many of these issues is being in relationship 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.720 with the people who are impacted, you know, knowing 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.980 the guys on death row that are facing execution, 00:07:15.139 --> 00:07:18.040 living in a neighborhood where we have, you know, 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.509 almost every corner memorial to someone who was 00:07:21.509 --> 00:07:26.290 a victim of gun violence. And so, you know, I 00:07:26.290 --> 00:07:31.410 think that's a part of it. And Dr. King, you 00:07:31.410 --> 00:07:33.629 know, who's a great teacher of both of ours, 00:07:33.730 --> 00:07:35.970 one of the things he said is we're all called 00:07:35.970 --> 00:07:38.709 to be the good Samaritan and lift our neighbor 00:07:38.709 --> 00:07:41.730 out of the ditch. But after you lift so many 00:07:41.730 --> 00:07:44.800 people out of the ditch. You start to say, maybe 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:46.899 we need to do something about the whole road 00:07:46.899 --> 00:07:50.139 to Jericho. Let's do something about why people 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:55.899 keep ending up in the ditch. That nearness to 00:07:55.899 --> 00:07:59.519 the pain is at the heart of the gospel. I mean, 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.600 you know, that God left all the comfort of heaven 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:05.139 to join the suffering here on earth and was born 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:09.199 into a brown -skinned Palestinian Jewish refugee 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.379 baby who was homeless and came from a town where 00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:16.040 people said nothing good could come. So we've 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:19.879 got to lean into the margins as God does. And 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:23.000 then the other thing I think is... One of the 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:24.920 things I always love about hanging out with you, 00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:29.480 John, is how much you love Jesus. And I grew 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:32.840 up in the evangelical Bible Belt in East Tennessee. 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.500 But the deeper I fell in love with Jesus, the 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:41.879 more at odds I found myself with evangelical 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:47.590 Christianity and the priorities. contradictions 00:08:47.590 --> 00:08:51.309 that I saw there. So I think we've got to keep 00:08:51.309 --> 00:08:56.330 centering Jesus. And when we take our eyes off 00:08:56.330 --> 00:08:58.909 Jesus, we can end up focusing on things that 00:08:58.909 --> 00:09:04.200 Jesus did not focus on and forgetting. the things 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:08.179 that Jesus had a whole lot to say about. So, 00:09:08.179 --> 00:09:11.860 you know, the Beatitudes and Matthew 25, all 00:09:11.860 --> 00:09:15.259 of these show us God's deep concern for the most 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:20.120 vulnerable people in our nation. Wow, Shane, 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:21.919 that was beautiful. Thank you. I could listen 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:26.240 to you all day. No, it was so helpful. I'm just 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:27.919 going to go on with the questions I prepared 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.500 for you, but you can say whatever you want. You 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:33.809 know, when I think about my own journey, Wow, 00:09:33.889 --> 00:09:36.769 when I was a kid, Shane, in college at Duke and 00:09:36.769 --> 00:09:39.230 made this decision to become a Jesuit and a priest, 00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:42.590 I never thought it meant I'd have to become an 00:09:42.590 --> 00:09:45.850 activist or an organizer or a public speaker, 00:09:45.909 --> 00:09:49.309 much less a nonviolent resistor in an ex -con 00:09:49.309 --> 00:09:53.940 with a long rap sheet. But nobody told me. And 00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:57.019 I studied the Gospels, and then I had teachers 00:09:57.019 --> 00:10:00.620 like you did, Deanna Phil Berrigan, Tutu, Mother 00:10:00.620 --> 00:10:03.240 Teresa, Nat Han, and then these mythic figures, 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:06.600 Gandhi, Dr. King, and Dorothy Day. And that's 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:09.179 what they did. And, like, you know, I was living 00:10:09.179 --> 00:10:11.120 in El Salvador working with the homeless, and 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.139 she said, you get moving. What happened to you? 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:17.940 How did you end up like this? And how can we 00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:21.679 help other Christians, you know? As Dan told 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:25.340 me, go public and start organizing, taking action, 00:10:25.500 --> 00:10:29.340 standing up, speaking out and resisting what 00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:33.440 Brian McClary called the rising tide of authoritarianism. 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:40.500 So the backdrop of, you know, growing up in East 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:43.759 Tennessee for me gives me a little bit of patience 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.600 with other folks because I'm so many issues that 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:52.740 I feel. deeply convicted and passionate about 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:55.419 ending the death penalty, gun violence, ending 00:10:55.419 --> 00:10:58.539 militarism and war, nuclear weapons. I spent 00:10:58.539 --> 00:11:02.600 a lot of my life on the other side of those issues. 00:11:02.659 --> 00:11:05.240 I was for the death penalty. I had all the Bible 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:08.620 verses that I thought justified the death penalty. 00:11:08.860 --> 00:11:13.450 My dad was a veteran. My whole family are still 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:16.610 gun owners. So I grew up with guns. And so I 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:21.570 think part of what I began to do is deconstruct 00:11:21.570 --> 00:11:24.129 some of those things. But I also began to see. 00:11:25.829 --> 00:11:28.590 That there's a version of self -righteousness 00:11:28.590 --> 00:11:31.769 that's also in progressive circles. So we've 00:11:31.769 --> 00:11:33.830 got to be careful not to just have this sense 00:11:33.830 --> 00:11:37.070 of moral superiority that doesn't have room for 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:39.929 grace and transformation and for people to change 00:11:39.929 --> 00:11:43.230 their minds. So I still love dialoguing with 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:45.789 people who disagree with me. And I have a lot 00:11:45.789 --> 00:11:48.759 of patience for folks that... You know, have 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:51.480 Bible verses that defend the death penalty because 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:54.620 I use those same arguments. So I think, you know, 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.320 self -righteousness is toxic. But then, you know, 00:11:57.320 --> 00:12:01.120 the closer we get to the pain, the more we can't 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.580 help but respond. So when it comes to activism, 00:12:03.980 --> 00:12:08.860 I mean, I can remember distinctively, John, you 00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:13.000 know, when. And there was a 19 -year -old that 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.139 was killed right in front of our house. And I 00:12:16.139 --> 00:12:18.620 heard the gunshots. I ran outside. At the time, 00:12:18.620 --> 00:12:21.259 he was still alive. So I was holding his hand. 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.159 I was praying with him. The ambulance came. He 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.580 was still fighting for every breath. And then 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:28.980 the next day, we found out that he didn't make 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:34.779 it. And for me, that was the moment where compassion 00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:40.149 And love compelled me to also care about justice 00:12:40.149 --> 00:12:47.429 and policies. And, you know, I think that. As 00:12:47.429 --> 00:12:51.250 I think of loving my neighbor as myself, it means 00:12:51.250 --> 00:12:54.870 I also care about the principalities and powers 00:12:54.870 --> 00:12:57.690 that are crushing their lives, that are keeping 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:00.809 them from flourishing. You did a great montage 00:13:00.809 --> 00:13:05.110 of those up front, naming some names of the principalities 00:13:05.110 --> 00:13:08.730 and powers that we're up against. So, I mean, 00:13:08.750 --> 00:13:12.129 I think the best organizing centers those that 00:13:12.129 --> 00:13:14.629 are impacted. And as our brother Cornel West 00:13:14.629 --> 00:13:18.169 says, it lets the suffering speak. amplify the 00:13:18.169 --> 00:13:24.190 suffering. And Dr. King's entire philosophy of 00:13:24.190 --> 00:13:27.850 organizing was we've got to amplify the suffering 00:13:27.850 --> 00:13:32.269 so that it makes people who are in power uncomfortable. 00:13:33.009 --> 00:13:37.049 And we've got to expose injustice so that those 00:13:37.049 --> 00:13:40.629 who have the power to change it are activated. 00:13:40.990 --> 00:13:43.500 And I think the way that we do that is We've 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:48.519 got to move people's hearts and minds. And that's 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.039 why love is a compelling force that Dr. King 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:53.659 talks so much about. We will wear them down by 00:13:53.659 --> 00:13:56.820 our love, no matter how much they hate us. Dr. 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.039 King said, you can burn down our houses. You 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.779 can threaten the lives of our children. You can 00:14:01.779 --> 00:14:04.120 throw us in jail and put your dogs on us, but 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:06.539 we will still love you and we will wear you down 00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:10.779 by our love. So that refusal to allow people 00:14:10.779 --> 00:14:14.179 to change our hearts, hearts, to make us hate 00:14:14.179 --> 00:14:17.139 them, is a powerful thing to claim. It's to say, 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.720 you know, this is about who we are. We've seen 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.879 too much hate to hate, as Dr. King said. Hate's 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:26.980 too big a burden to bear because hate does something 00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:30.350 to us. Self -righteousness does something to 00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:33.809 us. So I think that humility, that's at the heart 00:14:33.809 --> 00:14:36.830 of nonviolence. Now, I think when it comes to 00:14:36.830 --> 00:14:40.230 organizing, John, I love to be creative. And 00:14:40.230 --> 00:14:42.889 you just had Brian on the show. Brian McLaren 00:14:42.889 --> 00:14:44.409 is one of the first people that I think used 00:14:44.409 --> 00:14:47.090 the word, we don't just need to protest, we need 00:14:47.090 --> 00:14:51.450 to protestify. We need to proclaim a vision for 00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:56.779 a better world. So that's always been my... You 00:14:56.779 --> 00:15:00.580 know, organizing tactic is let's proclaim how 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:03.879 the world could be. Let's cast a vision for a 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.320 better world. And, you know, as Walter Brueggemann 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.379 called it, the prophetic imagination. Let's invite 00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:14.159 people to not just imagine a better world, but 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:16.879 to build it together. That's all great, Shane. 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.929 But, you know, Martin King was. brilliant organizer 00:15:21.929 --> 00:15:25.809 and he was able to energize and mobilize people. 00:15:25.870 --> 00:15:30.789 So was Gandhi and so was Jesus. And, you know, 00:15:30.850 --> 00:15:33.629 you are one of the most creative people I know. 00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:35.490 And I'm serious to the friends who are listening 00:15:35.490 --> 00:15:38.769 to this to check out Shane's work at redletterchristians 00:15:38.769 --> 00:15:41.529 .org. It's amazing. He's got so many things going 00:15:41.529 --> 00:15:44.210 and he's living in poverty and he's got all these 00:15:44.210 --> 00:15:48.190 friends and they're doing stuff. So an example, 00:15:48.289 --> 00:15:51.149 and maybe you could talk about it. I'm pushing 00:15:51.149 --> 00:15:54.669 this question about, you know, we all feel so 00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:56.669 helpless, there's nothing we can do. And you 00:15:56.669 --> 00:15:58.389 just say, no, we're going to get out there and 00:15:58.389 --> 00:16:01.590 do something. So about eight, nine years ago, 00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:04.250 Shane called me on the phone and goes, okay, 00:16:04.330 --> 00:16:06.330 John, I need you to come to D .C. and get arrested 00:16:06.330 --> 00:16:09.070 with me. We're going to get arrested. And I went, 00:16:09.169 --> 00:16:12.169 okay, because, you know, Shane's called. And 00:16:12.169 --> 00:16:15.169 in fact, we had. One of the great demonstrations 00:16:15.169 --> 00:16:18.070 at the Supreme Court to mark the 40th anniversary 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:21.210 of the death penalty, and 18 of us were arrested. 00:16:21.409 --> 00:16:25.409 Several had been on death row and all. But you 00:16:25.409 --> 00:16:27.590 were organizing that, Shane, as well as then 00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:29.950 participating in it and then using that as a 00:16:29.950 --> 00:16:36.129 way to protestify. And how did that happen? Again, 00:16:36.370 --> 00:16:39.429 and how do you keep going with that? Organizing, 00:16:39.450 --> 00:16:43.919 taking action, and... And encouraging others 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.799 to publicly resist because we're going to need 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:51.639 this as we go forward more than ever as the world 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:56.559 gets worse. Well, the power of organizing, I 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:59.580 think, is we're bringing all of our ideas together. 00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:02.059 We're asking the question of how can we move 00:17:02.059 --> 00:17:05.359 people's hearts and minds. So just to remember 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.900 that witness together, brother, it was so beautiful 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:12.500 because we created. You know, I think a protest 00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:15.900 at its best is a form of liturgy, a public lament, 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.700 a public call. There's almost a worshipful piece 00:17:19.700 --> 00:17:22.319 of it when it's done at its best. It's a little 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.619 bit of street theater, too. It's using visuals 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:27.779 and sounds. So, you know, during that particular 00:17:27.779 --> 00:17:29.980 protest, there was a couple of things that we 00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:33.579 did. We recognized all of the lives that had 00:17:33.579 --> 00:17:38.319 been killed. by our government in what we call 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.579 the modern era of executions right this last 00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:45.900 40 years or so and so there were over 1500 names 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:49.200 with each year we listed the names of people 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:53.119 executed on placards you know and we held those 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.759 but we also said you know to be against the death 00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:02.130 penalty is not to be against justice or to believe 00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.009 that someone should be able to murder someone 00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:07.769 without consequences or to be numb to the victim. 00:18:07.849 --> 00:18:10.910 So we also remembered the victims and we carried 00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:14.630 roses in two colors, one for the victims of murder 00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:18.769 and violent crime and the other one to remember 00:18:18.769 --> 00:18:21.390 the victims of execution and the folks on death 00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:25.069 row. And even in our lineup, as we carried out 00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:28.410 that prayerful witness. As we carried out that 00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:32.029 prayerful witness, we laid the roses on the steps 00:18:32.029 --> 00:18:36.160 of the Supreme Court. And the folks that crossed 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.519 over that line included our brother, Derek Jameson, 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.079 who spent 20 years on death row for a crime he 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.119 didn't commit. Suzanne Bossler, whose father 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.099 was a pastor that was violently killed, and she 00:18:51.099 --> 00:18:53.460 survived that crime. So we're centering the people 00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:56.460 who have so much credibility because they've 00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:01.579 experienced the twisted. ideology of the death 00:19:01.579 --> 00:19:03.960 penalty, you know, firsthand. So, you know, I 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.220 think that's a part of what we're always trying 00:19:07.220 --> 00:19:11.160 to do is craft a prayerful service. And we just 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.559 did it recently. I hope you'll come out this 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:15.480 year and get arrested on Good Friday, John. But, 00:19:15.500 --> 00:19:17.640 you know, at the Lockheed Martin— See, friends, 00:19:17.740 --> 00:19:21.529 this is what I'm dealing with. You know, Lockheed 00:19:21.529 --> 00:19:23.589 Martin, the biggest weapons contractor in the 00:19:23.589 --> 00:19:27.130 world, where the weapons that are being used 00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:30.869 in Gaza are manufactured. On Good Friday, when 00:19:30.869 --> 00:19:34.289 we remember the death of Jesus on the cross, 00:19:34.369 --> 00:19:36.390 and ironically call it Good Friday, right? We 00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:40.799 gathered at... Lockheed Martin. And we had a 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.460 prayerful protest and we carried the names of 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.720 all of the children that we knew the names of 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:50.960 that had been killed in Gaza. And we held a sign 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.099 that said, Lockheed Martin, you have blood on 00:19:53.099 --> 00:19:56.400 your hands. And we put red handprints on a banner 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:02.680 as a memorial. nodding back at the scripture 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:06.420 and the death of Jesus that folks tried to wash 00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:08.220 their hands and pretend that things were okay 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.180 and that they hadn't done anything wrong. And 00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:13.759 so I think those are, you know, that's how I 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:17.359 kind of think of our public witness. And of course, 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.740 coming out of the rich tradition that you do 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:22.279 of the Catholic workers and the plowshares movement 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.940 and, you know, movements around the world that 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:28.180 have always had an element of hope and joy in 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:33.839 the midst of their past. Wow, Shane. Well, I'm 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:35.859 hoping this is the first of many conversations 00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:39.279 on the Nonviolent Jesus podcast with you. Shane 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.500 is involved in so many causes and movements, 00:20:42.779 --> 00:20:45.880 and that's why I wanted to focus on this, which 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.839 I realize is a little different. And I don't 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.259 even know where to begin, but let me list some 00:20:51.259 --> 00:20:54.799 of them and let you, Shane. Tell us about anything 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.799 you want to. So you've heard some about Shane's 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.259 work to abolish the death penalty, whether through 00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:02.980 civil disobedience. And he's written an excellent 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:06.460 book. His work to fight poverty in solidarity 00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:10.160 with the poor living in really inner city Philadelphia 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:13.839 with the simple way. His peace activism. Well, 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.420 that doesn't say it at all. Shane's experience 00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:20.180 in Iraq. the time we had together in Afghanistan 00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:23.359 listening to the youth who survived our drone 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.660 warfare, but these demonstrations like the one 00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:28.799 at Lockheed Martin and other places, Shane's 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:33.000 gun. Meanwhile, his whole book and campaign to 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.339 end gun violence in the U .S., working with our 00:21:36.339 --> 00:21:42.920 friend at rawtools .org to literally get people 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.519 to turn in their guns and beat them into... gardening 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.940 tools. And just in general, I see, Shane, all 00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:55.240 your writing, your longtime public speaking, 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.140 Shane's always seems to be on the road, and your 00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:00.900 community building and life and your building, 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:02.839 bringing all these people together, all that 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:06.740 creativity, are also part of your nonviolent 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:11.430 resistance, your Christian witness. Tell us about 00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:14.349 any of these things to encourage us to keep going 00:22:14.349 --> 00:22:16.349 and doing that. I don't even know where to begin, 00:22:16.470 --> 00:22:21.069 Shane. So, you know, you know. Well, I mean, 00:22:21.109 --> 00:22:23.230 there's so many ways I think that we can all. 00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:26.099 collaborate and team up. Sometimes at Red Letter 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:29.839 Christians, we say, John, that we're a web of 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:34.299 subversive friends that are conspiring together 00:22:34.299 --> 00:22:37.539 for Jesus and justice. So folks can always find 00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:39.500 out. We've got a whole section of our website 00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:44.440 on how to take action. So the upcoming event 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.500 on Good Friday this year at Lockheed Martin, 00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:52.099 we'll be doing again around every execution that 00:22:52.099 --> 00:22:55.750 takes place. In the United States, we have both. 00:22:55.809 --> 00:23:00.049 It's a hybrid protest. So both online and in 00:23:00.049 --> 00:23:03.369 person on the ground, we support folks in protesting 00:23:03.369 --> 00:23:06.970 those executions, the spirit of nonviolence and 00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:10.210 the spirit of love and kind of proclaiming that 00:23:10.210 --> 00:23:12.849 violence is the problem, not the solution. So 00:23:12.849 --> 00:23:16.579 we can't kill to... try to show that killing 00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:19.660 is wrong. So folks can join us at Death Penalty 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:22.539 Action or Red Letter Christians. We have announcements. 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:25.779 We have an alert that goes out before every execution 00:23:25.779 --> 00:23:29.440 in America. And then with the gun stuff, you 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.140 know, this is what's so tragic, too, is that 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:37.839 gun violence is now the number one cause of death 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.480 of young people in America, more than car accidents 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:47.990 or cancer. And so you cannot be pro -life and 00:23:47.990 --> 00:23:51.849 ignore gun violence. Every one of those, a precious 00:23:51.849 --> 00:23:55.650 child of God. So it's over 100 lives a day that 00:23:55.650 --> 00:24:00.589 are cut short by guns and 40 ,000 lives a year. 00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:04.369 In my lifetime, John, I'm 50 years old this year. 00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:07.230 In my lifetime, we've lost more lives to gun 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:10.990 violence. domestically than in all the casualties 00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:16.069 of all of america's wars combined and we're all 00:24:16.069 --> 00:24:19.650 working on nuclear weapons and the escalating 00:24:19.650 --> 00:24:22.170 violence in in gaza in the middle east and yet 00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:24.490 we're you know around the gun violence we're 00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:27.630 responding and you you like you like this we 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:30.170 got our name raw tools from flipping war around 00:24:30.170 --> 00:24:34.220 i know i know and we you know we we uh We're 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:37.619 inspired by the prophet's vision, Micah and Isaiah, 00:24:37.779 --> 00:24:39.960 beating swords into plows, spears into pruning 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.339 hooks. So we said, well, we don't have a lot 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:44.259 of swords in America, but we've got more guns 00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:46.980 than people. So maybe we can start to transform 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:50.880 them. And now thousands of guns later, you know, 00:24:50.900 --> 00:24:53.960 we've been transforming these into garden tools 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:58.640 and art. But it's also that proclamation. Every 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:01.799 time we turn a gun into a garden tool, we are 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.400 saying. All things can be made new. And I tell 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.200 my evangelical friends, this is what a gun looks 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:13.559 like when it gets born again. And every time 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.619 we do it to metal, we're also saying this is 00:25:16.619 --> 00:25:19.000 true of human hearts, too. Even someone who's 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:22.549 killed another person. is more than the worst 00:25:22.549 --> 00:25:24.230 thing that they've ever done. They are still 00:25:24.230 --> 00:25:27.390 made in the image of God and lives can be transformed. 00:25:27.730 --> 00:25:31.789 So it's hopeful work. And, you know, that beautiful 00:25:31.789 --> 00:25:34.309 passage that we love so much about beating swords 00:25:34.309 --> 00:25:36.410 into plows, it's interesting because it ends 00:25:36.410 --> 00:25:39.269 by saying nation will not rise up against nation. 00:25:39.410 --> 00:25:43.190 People will study war no more. But the peace 00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:46.029 that the prophets proclaim doesn't come from 00:25:46.029 --> 00:25:49.029 the top down. It comes from the bottom up. It's 00:25:49.029 --> 00:25:52.589 not the presidents and kings and emperors and 00:25:52.589 --> 00:25:55.710 prime ministers that lead the way to peace. They're 00:25:55.710 --> 00:25:58.309 the ones that keep making wars. It's the people 00:25:58.309 --> 00:26:03.440 who get so fed up with death. that they take 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.519 things into their own hands and they begin to 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.180 transform the weapons and they also begin to 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:12.200 transform the world. And it's a reminder, right, 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:15.480 that, you know, as Abraham Heschel and so many 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.720 people said, you know, the prophets, we misunderstand 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.619 them sometimes. We think that they were fortune 00:26:21.619 --> 00:26:25.039 tellers trying to... predict the future and that's 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.980 not not it they weren't fortune tellers they 00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:30.700 were truth tellers and they weren't trying to 00:26:30.700 --> 00:26:33.240 predict the future they were trying to change 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:36.480 the future by waking us up to the present and 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.299 saying it doesn't have to be this way and they 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:42.400 invite us to into a different imagination right 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.859 that even a piece of metal that has been designed 00:26:45.859 --> 00:26:50.079 to kill can be reimagined and repurposed and 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.200 rethought. And so it's that invitation to kind 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.759 of remake the world that's at the heart of our 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:58.339 work. And I think it's around gun violence, but 00:26:58.339 --> 00:27:01.920 it's on every front. We've got to be casting 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:05.759 a vision and the hope that God's love is bigger 00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:10.519 than our sin, than our violence, like on the 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:13.720 cross, through the resurrection, like Jesus triumphed 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:18.220 over death. So anytime. John, we try to defend 00:27:18.220 --> 00:27:22.920 violence. We are betraying and we are contradicting 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.220 and undermining the very gospel of Jesus, which 00:27:26.220 --> 00:27:30.140 is life is more powerful than death. Love triumphs 00:27:30.140 --> 00:27:33.660 over hatred, mercy over judgment. So hallelujah. 00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:35.400 I got to preach in there, brother. You did a 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:39.259 great job. You were protestifying. I love it. 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.950 Gosh, Shane, it's great. Okay, now. We've got 00:27:41.950 --> 00:27:44.289 a couple minutes left. I want to shift a little 00:27:44.289 --> 00:27:47.750 bit. You've been doing really great work. No, 00:27:47.769 --> 00:27:49.990 no, seriously, over the last few years about 00:27:49.990 --> 00:27:52.630 Christian nationalism. So I want you to try to 00:27:52.630 --> 00:27:55.329 briefly talk to us about it. Now, here's my take. 00:27:56.349 --> 00:28:01.269 Boy, this is rough. The Third Reich, how the 00:28:01.269 --> 00:28:05.250 Nazis used Christianity to advance their strategy 00:28:05.250 --> 00:28:08.730 and political platform of hatred, mass murder, 00:28:08.970 --> 00:28:12.289 genocide, and global domination. I think this 00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:15.089 is the normal natural progression of the United 00:28:15.089 --> 00:28:18.089 States if you look at its history from the genocide 00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:20.549 of the indigenous to the enslaved peoples to 00:28:20.549 --> 00:28:25.029 blah, blah, blah. Hiroshima, Vietnam, you know, 00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.230 Reagan in Central America and nuclear weapons 00:28:27.230 --> 00:28:29.789 and now Trump and the Republicans in Fox News. 00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:32.329 We're on that trajectory. You know, Gandhi said, 00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:37.819 Shane, unless a democracy. He said this in 1921. 00:28:38.299 --> 00:28:42.099 Unless a democracy moves toward nonviolence and 00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:44.559 becomes a nonviolent democracy, it has to move 00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:49.279 into fascism. That was before Hitler. You've 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:52.640 written a lot about the rise of Christian nationalism. 00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:55.460 You've been taking a lot of hits for talking 00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:59.420 about it. So tell us about it and what we can 00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:01.380 do about it because it's in all the churches 00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:07.160 in these days and it's getting worse. Maybe that's 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:09.220 what you've been talking about all along. Yeah, 00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:11.980 well, I mean, there's sure been a trajectory 00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:15.579 of conversion for me on this. I mean, you know, 00:29:15.579 --> 00:29:17.660 when I was in high school, I was helping lead 00:29:17.660 --> 00:29:20.519 the See You at the Pole prayer campaigns where 00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.640 we would gather at the flagpole and pray, you 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:25.579 know, bring prayer back into public schools. 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.339 Oh, come on. But I want to say, you know, part 00:29:28.339 --> 00:29:34.240 of what I began to recognize is that Well, I 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:37.140 mean, to be really frank, you know, it doesn't 00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:39.039 feel like you should have to say this, but Jesus 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.799 was not American. Jesus did not speak English. 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:48.019 Jesus was not white. The story of the gospel 00:29:48.019 --> 00:29:52.140 and the story of God, America is not the center, 00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.400 Jesus is. And something happens when we believe 00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:59.940 that America is God's messianic force in the 00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:03.079 world, that we have this kind of exceptionalism, 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.240 a doctrine of discovery, a manifest destiny that's 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.900 still being used to this day to try to justify 00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:12.420 the colonization of Gaza. So all of this is like, 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:18.359 you know, connected. I think what happened for 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.779 me is I actually began to come back to some of 00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:27.559 the core beliefs of my evangelical youth, like 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.279 the idea that we're born again. I mean, that 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:32.960 became a little cliche. It's been misused. But 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:35.619 I think part of what Jesus is inviting us into 00:30:35.619 --> 00:30:41.160 is a bigger vision. for family and for love that 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.200 goes beyond our DNA and beyond biological family 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:49.579 and extends to the farthest reaches of the world, 00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:52.099 right? That to be born again, you know, Mother 00:30:52.099 --> 00:30:55.180 Teresa said, sometimes our biggest problem is 00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:58.400 the circle we've drawn around our family is too 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:03.180 small. It's too small. And that's the problem 00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:06.160 with nationalism is we begin to believe that 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.039 our people are more valuable than other people. 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:14.880 And yet the idea of being born again means that 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:19.660 if someone else's child. is starving, it's as 00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:22.960 tragic as if it was my own child. If someone 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.339 is suffering on the other side of our southern 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:29.740 border, it's as tragic as if it was my own grandmother. 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.920 Those kids in Gaza are just as precious as the 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.319 kids in Israel or the kids, my own little baby 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:41.500 Elijah, that same image of God is in them. And 00:31:41.500 --> 00:31:44.720 so I think part of this is about saying a love 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.339 for the people of our own country is not a bad 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:49.450 thing. thing. But our love doesn't stop at borders. 00:31:49.529 --> 00:31:52.089 Our Bible doesn't say God so loved America. It 00:31:52.089 --> 00:31:54.349 says God so loved the world. And so we've got 00:31:54.349 --> 00:31:58.029 to have a love that's as big as God's love. And 00:31:58.029 --> 00:32:00.890 I also think this is also about power. John, 00:32:00.950 --> 00:32:02.410 you know, as we think of Christian nationalism, 00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:05.230 I heard someone say like this. They said, if 00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:08.609 you believe as you read the temptations of Jesus 00:32:08.609 --> 00:32:11.690 in the desert. Jesus made all the wrong decisions. 00:32:14.089 --> 00:32:16.390 You might be a Christian nationalist because 00:32:16.390 --> 00:32:19.069 that's exactly what many Christians are doing. 00:32:22.639 --> 00:32:25.359 I mean, literally, it's as if they never read 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:27.640 the scripture where Jesus says, what good is 00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:31.440 it to gain the whole world and forfeit your soul? 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.680 I mean, we have evangelicals that aren't even 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.420 gaining the world. They're just gaining a few 00:32:35.420 --> 00:32:37.740 seats on the Supreme Court and forfeiting their 00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:43.829 soul. surrendering any moral credibility, any 00:32:43.829 --> 00:32:47.269 integrity in order to defend things that are 00:32:47.269 --> 00:32:50.390 utterly indefensible. And I want to say, I believe 00:32:50.390 --> 00:32:56.009 that Donald Trump is not beyond redemption and 00:32:56.009 --> 00:33:00.130 grace. And yet right now, he's made a vocation 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:04.400 out of the seven deadly sins. made a mockery 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.500 of the fruit of the Spirit, undermines regularly 00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:10.460 every tenet of the Sermon on the Mount. I mean, 00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:14.339 and so like we look to Jesus and we see that 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:17.819 Jesus is a direct confrontation to empire, to 00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:21.740 power, to the forces that are alive in our nation. 00:33:21.859 --> 00:33:24.039 And many people, when they say, make America 00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:27.859 great again. They are saying, make America white 00:33:27.859 --> 00:33:30.880 again. And it's very clear that this is about 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.279 the fragility of power in a nation that is changing. 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.940 And the folks that have held – been the power 00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:41.940 brokers, that is changing a little bit after 00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:44.980 the first black president, after the changing 00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:47.819 demographics of Congress and all of this. So 00:33:47.819 --> 00:33:50.640 this is around a fault line of race, and there 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:52.519 are a lot of people who would like to go back 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:57.059 to some kind of heroic, romantic time in the 00:33:57.059 --> 00:33:59.539 past. But every black person I know, they go, 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.319 like, which – What part of American history do 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:04.200 we want to go back to? You know, and I think 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.819 that's kind of the question as we look at the 00:34:07.819 --> 00:34:11.920 state of our country. And it's a choice of love 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:15.969 over fear. So I. absolutely think this is a moment 00:34:15.969 --> 00:34:18.409 we have to stand on the promise of scripture 00:34:18.409 --> 00:34:23.130 that perfect love casteth out fear, that fear 00:34:23.130 --> 00:34:26.210 and love are like opposing magnets. They push 00:34:26.210 --> 00:34:30.250 each other out and fear pushes out love. Love 00:34:30.250 --> 00:34:35.010 gives us another alternative to fear and scarcity 00:34:35.010 --> 00:34:37.570 and these people that are replacing us and all 00:34:37.570 --> 00:34:40.650 of this garbage that is so much about fear. And 00:34:40.650 --> 00:34:43.269 so the invitation is to imagine what would our 00:34:43.269 --> 00:34:47.039 country look like if it was love rather than 00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:52.559 fear that was the compelling force behind our 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.880 policies on immigration? What would real justice 00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:57.960 look like? It sure wouldn't look like the death 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:01.420 penalty. You know, how can we love our immigrant 00:35:01.420 --> 00:35:03.699 neighbors, our refugee neighbors, knowing that 00:35:03.699 --> 00:35:07.900 as we do that, we do it to Jesus? So this is 00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:11.730 not just a crisis. of democracy. It certainly 00:35:11.730 --> 00:35:15.010 is that. I mean, it's not just a social or political 00:35:15.010 --> 00:35:18.210 crisis, but this is a deeply spiritual crisis. 00:35:18.489 --> 00:35:22.630 And American nationalism that's trying to camouflage 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:27.050 itself as Christianity is not only a threat to 00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:31.630 democracy, but it's a threat to authentic Christianity, 00:35:31.730 --> 00:35:35.429 the real love for Jesus. And we saw that, you 00:35:35.429 --> 00:35:38.570 know, even recently as Bishop Buddy, a dear friend 00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:41.010 who, you know, we've collaborated with on all 00:35:41.010 --> 00:35:44.309 kinds of stuff. We made her a cross John made 00:35:44.309 --> 00:35:46.530 out of a gun, you know, and Bishop Buddy just 00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:49.690 spoke the words of Jesus. And, you know, you 00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:52.690 can hear the reverb of the Beatitudes, blessed 00:35:52.690 --> 00:35:56.889 are the merciful, as she spoke to President Trump. 00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:01.260 for mercy for immigrants and vulnerable neighbors. 00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:07.230 It was the gospel that she was proclaiming. some 00:36:07.230 --> 00:36:10.250 of the worst principalities and powers, people 00:36:10.250 --> 00:36:12.570 that called her a witch and a sorceress, saying 00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:15.650 that she was compelled by the devil. And I always 00:36:15.650 --> 00:36:17.650 say, I've been saying, John, if you didn't like 00:36:17.650 --> 00:36:19.869 the two -minute homily of Mary and Buddy that 00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:23.090 went viral, you're really not going to like the 00:36:23.090 --> 00:36:27.170 Sermon on the Mount. Or, you know, the Magnificat 00:36:27.170 --> 00:36:31.750 of Mary. Exactly. I mean, this is radical. Flip 00:36:31.750 --> 00:36:35.349 the world upside down stuff. Wow, Shane Claiborne, 00:36:35.409 --> 00:36:38.449 thank you so much for all this amazing inspiration 00:36:38.449 --> 00:36:41.349 that you're giving me. And we're going to have 00:36:41.349 --> 00:36:44.369 to continue this conversation many times. And 00:36:44.369 --> 00:36:46.510 I wish you all the best. Thanks so much, Shane, 00:36:46.630 --> 00:36:50.030 for speaking with me today. Just to wrap up here, 00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:51.650 I want to thank all you friends for listening 00:36:51.650 --> 00:36:54.710 to this Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear 00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:57.949 many more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom 00:36:57.949 --> 00:37:03.400 programs at www .beatitudecenter .org. Please 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:05.840 consider offering a donation to support this 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:08.980 free work, and if you can, leave a little positive 00:37:08.980 --> 00:37:13.059 feedback or review at NCR or Apple or Spotify 00:37:13.059 --> 00:37:16.199 or whatever platform you're using. Join me next 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.739 week when I'll continue to explore these questions. 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:22.039 I myself will reflect a little on Luke 10, how 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:26.079 Jesus sent the 72 out ahead of them as lambs 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.179 into the midst of wolves to proclaim God's reign, 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:33.800 like Shane is doing today. I thank you all so 00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.139 much for listening. May the God of peace bless 00:37:36.139 --> 00:37:39.340 everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus 00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:41.900 and see you all next time. And thanks again, 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.820 Shane. Thank you, my brother.