Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Shane Claiborne, author, theologian,
popular speaker, and founder of Red Letter Christians,
which I highly recommend if you haven't checked
it out, redletterchristians .org, and the Simple
Way community. And we're going to talk about
following the nonviolent Jesus through public
organizing, action, and resistance. This podcast
is a project of www .beatitudescenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing peace and justice and nonviolence
and working for a more just, peaceful world.
So let's begin with a little two -second prayer.
So I invite all those who are listening, wherever
you are, to just take a deep breath and to relax.
and to recenter yourself, and together let's
all enter into the presence of the God of peace
who loves you infinitely and personally, and
every human being, all our sisters and brothers,
and let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with
us now and ask for the grace to follow him ever
more faithfully that we might do God's will of
peace and justice. God of peace. Thank you for
all the blessings of life and love and peace
that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect
on the nonviolence of Jesus and how we can better
follow him today as activists, organizers, and
nonviolent resistors in this culture of violence
and greed and death and destruction. Bless us.
inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send
us out to do your will and proclaim your way
of peace, love, justice, and nonviolence, that
we might all together do our part to help you
end war, poverty, violence, racism, greed, oligarchy,
nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction,
that we might be your beatitude people of universal
love, universal compassion, and universal peace.
In Jesus' name. Amen. Well, it's my great pleasure
today to welcome my friend Shane Claiborne. Shane,
I think, is one of the great peacemakers of our
time. He graduated from Eastern University and
did graduate work at Princeton Seminary. His
adventures have taken him from the streets of
Calcutta, where he worked with Mother Teresa,
to the wealthy suburbs of Chicago, where he served
at the megachurch Willow Creek. As a peacemaker,
he's been in some of the most troubled places
in the world, from Rwanda to the West Bank, serious
time in Iraq, and together we went to Afghanistan.
Shane heads up Red Letter Christians, as I said,
a movement of Christians committed to living
out the lifestyle prescribed in the Gospels.
And Shane is the founder of The Simple Way, a
community in inner -city Philadelphia. He's married
to Katie Joy, and they have a... Katie Jo, and
they have a new baby boy. Shane writes and travels
extensively speaking about peacemaking, social
justice, and Jesus. His many best -selling books
include Jesus for President, Red Letter Revolution,
Common Prayer, Follow Me to Freedom, Jesus, Bombs,
and Ice Cream, Becoming the Answer to Our Prayers,
Executing Grace, which is a brilliant book on
the death penalty, and Beating Guns. Brilliant
book on gun violence. And then his great classic
work, The Irresistible Revolution. His newest
book is Rethinking Life. Shane, thanks so much
for being with me today. Oh, my brother. It is
so good. I'm still praying that may we be your
B attitude people. Well, come on, Shane. Isn't
that great? So we're going to jump right into
the deep end, okay? I'm ready. All right. I expect
nothing less. We're going to need several hours,
dear friends who are listening. I hope, yeah,
the two of us, once we get going. We're up to
our ears in oligarchy and empire and white supremacy
and injustice and corporate greed and permanent
warfare and lies and nuclear weapons and environmental
destruction. I am not done. Trump, the Republican
Party, Fox News, it can go on and on. Meanwhile.
Here we are called to follow the most radical
nonviolent revolutionary in history, Jesus of
Nazareth. So that's why I thought, well, last
week Brian McLaren was teaching us about authoritarianism.
And next week I'm going to talk about Luke 10,
how Jesus built a bottom -up grassroots movement.
And I wanted to hear you reflect on following
Jesus through. Public organizing and action and
resistance, which you do so well. So I wanted
to first invite you. Basically, it's the topic
of how we as Christians have to become activists,
organizers, and nonviolent resistors as part
of our faith life, as disciples of Jesus. I always
say, I know this is stupid, Shane, but Jesus
did not sit back and do nothing. He got up and
went forward. took on the empire and led a movement,
and we have to do the same. So can you reflect
on any way you want to start on the nonviolence
of Jesus, Jesus as a resistor and activist and
an organizer and going public, as Dan Berrigan
taught me? Oh, goodness. Well, the place I would
start is, I mean, for me, John, as you know,
A part of what happens is the closer we are to
the pain, the more urgent it is to respond to
it. And so I think a lot of times in the church,
it's not so much a compassion problem as a proximity
problem and a relationship disconnect, because
we've grown a little bit distant from the people
who are most impacted by injustice. One of the
starting points for me is being near to those
who are hurting. You know, Mother Teresa, she
once said, it can be very fashionable to talk
about the poor, but not as fashionable to talk
to them, to know them. And so, I mean, for me,
that's been what puts a fire in my bones around
so many of these issues is being in relationship
with the people who are impacted, you know, knowing
the guys on death row that are facing execution,
living in a neighborhood where we have, you know,
almost every corner memorial to someone who was
a victim of gun violence. And so, you know, I
think that's a part of it. And Dr. King, you
know, who's a great teacher of both of ours,
one of the things he said is we're all called
to be the good Samaritan and lift our neighbor
out of the ditch. But after you lift so many
people out of the ditch. You start to say, maybe
we need to do something about the whole road
to Jericho. Let's do something about why people
keep ending up in the ditch. That nearness to
the pain is at the heart of the gospel. I mean,
you know, that God left all the comfort of heaven
to join the suffering here on earth and was born
into a brown -skinned Palestinian Jewish refugee
baby who was homeless and came from a town where
people said nothing good could come. So we've
got to lean into the margins as God does. And
then the other thing I think is... One of the
things I always love about hanging out with you,
John, is how much you love Jesus. And I grew
up in the evangelical Bible Belt in East Tennessee.
But the deeper I fell in love with Jesus, the
more at odds I found myself with evangelical
Christianity and the priorities. contradictions
that I saw there. So I think we've got to keep
centering Jesus. And when we take our eyes off
Jesus, we can end up focusing on things that
Jesus did not focus on and forgetting. the things
that Jesus had a whole lot to say about. So,
you know, the Beatitudes and Matthew 25, all
of these show us God's deep concern for the most
vulnerable people in our nation. Wow, Shane,
that was beautiful. Thank you. I could listen
to you all day. No, it was so helpful. I'm just
going to go on with the questions I prepared
for you, but you can say whatever you want. You
know, when I think about my own journey, Wow,
when I was a kid, Shane, in college at Duke and
made this decision to become a Jesuit and a priest,
I never thought it meant I'd have to become an
activist or an organizer or a public speaker,
much less a nonviolent resistor in an ex -con
with a long rap sheet. But nobody told me. And
I studied the Gospels, and then I had teachers
like you did, Deanna Phil Berrigan, Tutu, Mother
Teresa, Nat Han, and then these mythic figures,
Gandhi, Dr. King, and Dorothy Day. And that's
what they did. And, like, you know, I was living
in El Salvador working with the homeless, and
she said, you get moving. What happened to you?
How did you end up like this? And how can we
help other Christians, you know? As Dan told
me, go public and start organizing, taking action,
standing up, speaking out and resisting what
Brian McClary called the rising tide of authoritarianism.
So the backdrop of, you know, growing up in East
Tennessee for me gives me a little bit of patience
with other folks because I'm so many issues that
I feel. deeply convicted and passionate about
ending the death penalty, gun violence, ending
militarism and war, nuclear weapons. I spent
a lot of my life on the other side of those issues.
I was for the death penalty. I had all the Bible
verses that I thought justified the death penalty.
My dad was a veteran. My whole family are still
gun owners. So I grew up with guns. And so I
think part of what I began to do is deconstruct
some of those things. But I also began to see.
That there's a version of self -righteousness
that's also in progressive circles. So we've
got to be careful not to just have this sense
of moral superiority that doesn't have room for
grace and transformation and for people to change
their minds. So I still love dialoguing with
people who disagree with me. And I have a lot
of patience for folks that... You know, have
Bible verses that defend the death penalty because
I use those same arguments. So I think, you know,
self -righteousness is toxic. But then, you know,
the closer we get to the pain, the more we can't
help but respond. So when it comes to activism,
I mean, I can remember distinctively, John, you
know, when. And there was a 19 -year -old that
was killed right in front of our house. And I
heard the gunshots. I ran outside. At the time,
he was still alive. So I was holding his hand.
I was praying with him. The ambulance came. He
was still fighting for every breath. And then
the next day, we found out that he didn't make
it. And for me, that was the moment where compassion
And love compelled me to also care about justice
and policies. And, you know, I think that. As
I think of loving my neighbor as myself, it means
I also care about the principalities and powers
that are crushing their lives, that are keeping
them from flourishing. You did a great montage
of those up front, naming some names of the principalities
and powers that we're up against. So, I mean,
I think the best organizing centers those that
are impacted. And as our brother Cornel West
says, it lets the suffering speak. amplify the
suffering. And Dr. King's entire philosophy of
organizing was we've got to amplify the suffering
so that it makes people who are in power uncomfortable.
And we've got to expose injustice so that those
who have the power to change it are activated.
And I think the way that we do that is We've
got to move people's hearts and minds. And that's
why love is a compelling force that Dr. King
talks so much about. We will wear them down by
our love, no matter how much they hate us. Dr.
King said, you can burn down our houses. You
can threaten the lives of our children. You can
throw us in jail and put your dogs on us, but
we will still love you and we will wear you down
by our love. So that refusal to allow people
to change our hearts, hearts, to make us hate
them, is a powerful thing to claim. It's to say,
you know, this is about who we are. We've seen
too much hate to hate, as Dr. King said. Hate's
too big a burden to bear because hate does something
to us. Self -righteousness does something to
us. So I think that humility, that's at the heart
of nonviolence. Now, I think when it comes to
organizing, John, I love to be creative. And
you just had Brian on the show. Brian McLaren
is one of the first people that I think used
the word, we don't just need to protest, we need
to protestify. We need to proclaim a vision for
a better world. So that's always been my... You
know, organizing tactic is let's proclaim how
the world could be. Let's cast a vision for a
better world. And, you know, as Walter Brueggemann
called it, the prophetic imagination. Let's invite
people to not just imagine a better world, but
to build it together. That's all great, Shane.
But, you know, Martin King was. brilliant organizer
and he was able to energize and mobilize people.
So was Gandhi and so was Jesus. And, you know,
you are one of the most creative people I know.
And I'm serious to the friends who are listening
to this to check out Shane's work at redletterchristians
.org. It's amazing. He's got so many things going
and he's living in poverty and he's got all these
friends and they're doing stuff. So an example,
and maybe you could talk about it. I'm pushing
this question about, you know, we all feel so
helpless, there's nothing we can do. And you
just say, no, we're going to get out there and
do something. So about eight, nine years ago,
Shane called me on the phone and goes, okay,
John, I need you to come to D .C. and get arrested
with me. We're going to get arrested. And I went,
okay, because, you know, Shane's called. And
in fact, we had. One of the great demonstrations
at the Supreme Court to mark the 40th anniversary
of the death penalty, and 18 of us were arrested.
Several had been on death row and all. But you
were organizing that, Shane, as well as then
participating in it and then using that as a
way to protestify. And how did that happen? Again,
and how do you keep going with that? Organizing,
taking action, and... And encouraging others
to publicly resist because we're going to need
this as we go forward more than ever as the world
gets worse. Well, the power of organizing, I
think, is we're bringing all of our ideas together.
We're asking the question of how can we move
people's hearts and minds. So just to remember
that witness together, brother, it was so beautiful
because we created. You know, I think a protest
at its best is a form of liturgy, a public lament,
a public call. There's almost a worshipful piece
of it when it's done at its best. It's a little
bit of street theater, too. It's using visuals
and sounds. So, you know, during that particular
protest, there was a couple of things that we
did. We recognized all of the lives that had
been killed. by our government in what we call
the modern era of executions right this last
40 years or so and so there were over 1500 names
with each year we listed the names of people
executed on placards you know and we held those
but we also said you know to be against the death
penalty is not to be against justice or to believe
that someone should be able to murder someone
without consequences or to be numb to the victim.
So we also remembered the victims and we carried
roses in two colors, one for the victims of murder
and violent crime and the other one to remember
the victims of execution and the folks on death
row. And even in our lineup, as we carried out
that prayerful witness. As we carried out that
prayerful witness, we laid the roses on the steps
of the Supreme Court. And the folks that crossed
over that line included our brother, Derek Jameson,
who spent 20 years on death row for a crime he
didn't commit. Suzanne Bossler, whose father
was a pastor that was violently killed, and she
survived that crime. So we're centering the people
who have so much credibility because they've
experienced the twisted. ideology of the death
penalty, you know, firsthand. So, you know, I
think that's a part of what we're always trying
to do is craft a prayerful service. And we just
did it recently. I hope you'll come out this
year and get arrested on Good Friday, John. But,
you know, at the Lockheed Martin— See, friends,
this is what I'm dealing with. You know, Lockheed
Martin, the biggest weapons contractor in the
world, where the weapons that are being used
in Gaza are manufactured. On Good Friday, when
we remember the death of Jesus on the cross,
and ironically call it Good Friday, right? We
gathered at... Lockheed Martin. And we had a
prayerful protest and we carried the names of
all of the children that we knew the names of
that had been killed in Gaza. And we held a sign
that said, Lockheed Martin, you have blood on
your hands. And we put red handprints on a banner
as a memorial. nodding back at the scripture
and the death of Jesus that folks tried to wash
their hands and pretend that things were okay
and that they hadn't done anything wrong. And
so I think those are, you know, that's how I
kind of think of our public witness. And of course,
coming out of the rich tradition that you do
of the Catholic workers and the plowshares movement
and, you know, movements around the world that
have always had an element of hope and joy in
the midst of their past. Wow, Shane. Well, I'm
hoping this is the first of many conversations
on the Nonviolent Jesus podcast with you. Shane
is involved in so many causes and movements,
and that's why I wanted to focus on this, which
I realize is a little different. And I don't
even know where to begin, but let me list some
of them and let you, Shane. Tell us about anything
you want to. So you've heard some about Shane's
work to abolish the death penalty, whether through
civil disobedience. And he's written an excellent
book. His work to fight poverty in solidarity
with the poor living in really inner city Philadelphia
with the simple way. His peace activism. Well,
that doesn't say it at all. Shane's experience
in Iraq. the time we had together in Afghanistan
listening to the youth who survived our drone
warfare, but these demonstrations like the one
at Lockheed Martin and other places, Shane's
gun. Meanwhile, his whole book and campaign to
end gun violence in the U .S., working with our
friend at rawtools .org to literally get people
to turn in their guns and beat them into... gardening
tools. And just in general, I see, Shane, all
your writing, your longtime public speaking,
Shane's always seems to be on the road, and your
community building and life and your building,
bringing all these people together, all that
creativity, are also part of your nonviolent
resistance, your Christian witness. Tell us about
any of these things to encourage us to keep going
and doing that. I don't even know where to begin,
Shane. So, you know, you know. Well, I mean,
there's so many ways I think that we can all.
collaborate and team up. Sometimes at Red Letter
Christians, we say, John, that we're a web of
subversive friends that are conspiring together
for Jesus and justice. So folks can always find
out. We've got a whole section of our website
on how to take action. So the upcoming event
on Good Friday this year at Lockheed Martin,
we'll be doing again around every execution that
takes place. In the United States, we have both.
It's a hybrid protest. So both online and in
person on the ground, we support folks in protesting
those executions, the spirit of nonviolence and
the spirit of love and kind of proclaiming that
violence is the problem, not the solution. So
we can't kill to... try to show that killing
is wrong. So folks can join us at Death Penalty
Action or Red Letter Christians. We have announcements.
We have an alert that goes out before every execution
in America. And then with the gun stuff, you
know, this is what's so tragic, too, is that
gun violence is now the number one cause of death
of young people in America, more than car accidents
or cancer. And so you cannot be pro -life and
ignore gun violence. Every one of those, a precious
child of God. So it's over 100 lives a day that
are cut short by guns and 40 ,000 lives a year.
In my lifetime, John, I'm 50 years old this year.
In my lifetime, we've lost more lives to gun
violence. domestically than in all the casualties
of all of america's wars combined and we're all
working on nuclear weapons and the escalating
violence in in gaza in the middle east and yet
we're you know around the gun violence we're
responding and you you like you like this we
got our name raw tools from flipping war around
i know i know and we you know we we uh We're
inspired by the prophet's vision, Micah and Isaiah,
beating swords into plows, spears into pruning
hooks. So we said, well, we don't have a lot
of swords in America, but we've got more guns
than people. So maybe we can start to transform
them. And now thousands of guns later, you know,
we've been transforming these into garden tools
and art. But it's also that proclamation. Every
time we turn a gun into a garden tool, we are
saying. All things can be made new. And I tell
my evangelical friends, this is what a gun looks
like when it gets born again. And every time
we do it to metal, we're also saying this is
true of human hearts, too. Even someone who's
killed another person. is more than the worst
thing that they've ever done. They are still
made in the image of God and lives can be transformed.
So it's hopeful work. And, you know, that beautiful
passage that we love so much about beating swords
into plows, it's interesting because it ends
by saying nation will not rise up against nation.
People will study war no more. But the peace
that the prophets proclaim doesn't come from
the top down. It comes from the bottom up. It's
not the presidents and kings and emperors and
prime ministers that lead the way to peace. They're
the ones that keep making wars. It's the people
who get so fed up with death. that they take
things into their own hands and they begin to
transform the weapons and they also begin to
transform the world. And it's a reminder, right,
that, you know, as Abraham Heschel and so many
people said, you know, the prophets, we misunderstand
them sometimes. We think that they were fortune
tellers trying to... predict the future and that's
not not it they weren't fortune tellers they
were truth tellers and they weren't trying to
predict the future they were trying to change
the future by waking us up to the present and
saying it doesn't have to be this way and they
invite us to into a different imagination right
that even a piece of metal that has been designed
to kill can be reimagined and repurposed and
rethought. And so it's that invitation to kind
of remake the world that's at the heart of our
work. And I think it's around gun violence, but
it's on every front. We've got to be casting
a vision and the hope that God's love is bigger
than our sin, than our violence, like on the
cross, through the resurrection, like Jesus triumphed
over death. So anytime. John, we try to defend
violence. We are betraying and we are contradicting
and undermining the very gospel of Jesus, which
is life is more powerful than death. Love triumphs
over hatred, mercy over judgment. So hallelujah.
I got to preach in there, brother. You did a
great job. You were protestifying. I love it.
Gosh, Shane, it's great. Okay, now. We've got
a couple minutes left. I want to shift a little
bit. You've been doing really great work. No,
no, seriously, over the last few years about
Christian nationalism. So I want you to try to
briefly talk to us about it. Now, here's my take.
Boy, this is rough. The Third Reich, how the
Nazis used Christianity to advance their strategy
and political platform of hatred, mass murder,
genocide, and global domination. I think this
is the normal natural progression of the United
States if you look at its history from the genocide
of the indigenous to the enslaved peoples to
blah, blah, blah. Hiroshima, Vietnam, you know,
Reagan in Central America and nuclear weapons
and now Trump and the Republicans in Fox News.
We're on that trajectory. You know, Gandhi said,
Shane, unless a democracy. He said this in 1921.
Unless a democracy moves toward nonviolence and
becomes a nonviolent democracy, it has to move
into fascism. That was before Hitler. You've
written a lot about the rise of Christian nationalism.
You've been taking a lot of hits for talking
about it. So tell us about it and what we can
do about it because it's in all the churches
in these days and it's getting worse. Maybe that's
what you've been talking about all along. Yeah,
well, I mean, there's sure been a trajectory
of conversion for me on this. I mean, you know,
when I was in high school, I was helping lead
the See You at the Pole prayer campaigns where
we would gather at the flagpole and pray, you
know, bring prayer back into public schools.
Oh, come on. But I want to say, you know, part
of what I began to recognize is that Well, I
mean, to be really frank, you know, it doesn't
feel like you should have to say this, but Jesus
was not American. Jesus did not speak English.
Jesus was not white. The story of the gospel
and the story of God, America is not the center,
Jesus is. And something happens when we believe
that America is God's messianic force in the
world, that we have this kind of exceptionalism,
a doctrine of discovery, a manifest destiny that's
still being used to this day to try to justify
the colonization of Gaza. So all of this is like,
you know, connected. I think what happened for
me is I actually began to come back to some of
the core beliefs of my evangelical youth, like
the idea that we're born again. I mean, that
became a little cliche. It's been misused. But
I think part of what Jesus is inviting us into
is a bigger vision. for family and for love that
goes beyond our DNA and beyond biological family
and extends to the farthest reaches of the world,
right? That to be born again, you know, Mother
Teresa said, sometimes our biggest problem is
the circle we've drawn around our family is too
small. It's too small. And that's the problem
with nationalism is we begin to believe that
our people are more valuable than other people.
And yet the idea of being born again means that
if someone else's child. is starving, it's as
tragic as if it was my own child. If someone
is suffering on the other side of our southern
border, it's as tragic as if it was my own grandmother.
Those kids in Gaza are just as precious as the
kids in Israel or the kids, my own little baby
Elijah, that same image of God is in them. And
so I think part of this is about saying a love
for the people of our own country is not a bad
thing. thing. But our love doesn't stop at borders.
Our Bible doesn't say God so loved America. It
says God so loved the world. And so we've got
to have a love that's as big as God's love. And
I also think this is also about power. John,
you know, as we think of Christian nationalism,
I heard someone say like this. They said, if
you believe as you read the temptations of Jesus
in the desert. Jesus made all the wrong decisions.
You might be a Christian nationalist because
that's exactly what many Christians are doing.
I mean, literally, it's as if they never read
the scripture where Jesus says, what good is
it to gain the whole world and forfeit your soul?
I mean, we have evangelicals that aren't even
gaining the world. They're just gaining a few
seats on the Supreme Court and forfeiting their
soul. surrendering any moral credibility, any
integrity in order to defend things that are
utterly indefensible. And I want to say, I believe
that Donald Trump is not beyond redemption and
grace. And yet right now, he's made a vocation
out of the seven deadly sins. made a mockery
of the fruit of the Spirit, undermines regularly
every tenet of the Sermon on the Mount. I mean,
and so like we look to Jesus and we see that
Jesus is a direct confrontation to empire, to
power, to the forces that are alive in our nation.
And many people, when they say, make America
great again. They are saying, make America white
again. And it's very clear that this is about
the fragility of power in a nation that is changing.
And the folks that have held – been the power
brokers, that is changing a little bit after
the first black president, after the changing
demographics of Congress and all of this. So
this is around a fault line of race, and there
are a lot of people who would like to go back
to some kind of heroic, romantic time in the
past. But every black person I know, they go,
like, which – What part of American history do
we want to go back to? You know, and I think
that's kind of the question as we look at the
state of our country. And it's a choice of love
over fear. So I. absolutely think this is a moment
we have to stand on the promise of scripture
that perfect love casteth out fear, that fear
and love are like opposing magnets. They push
each other out and fear pushes out love. Love
gives us another alternative to fear and scarcity
and these people that are replacing us and all
of this garbage that is so much about fear. And
so the invitation is to imagine what would our
country look like if it was love rather than
fear that was the compelling force behind our
policies on immigration? What would real justice
look like? It sure wouldn't look like the death
penalty. You know, how can we love our immigrant
neighbors, our refugee neighbors, knowing that
as we do that, we do it to Jesus? So this is
not just a crisis. of democracy. It certainly
is that. I mean, it's not just a social or political
crisis, but this is a deeply spiritual crisis.
And American nationalism that's trying to camouflage
itself as Christianity is not only a threat to
democracy, but it's a threat to authentic Christianity,
the real love for Jesus. And we saw that, you
know, even recently as Bishop Buddy, a dear friend
who, you know, we've collaborated with on all
kinds of stuff. We made her a cross John made
out of a gun, you know, and Bishop Buddy just
spoke the words of Jesus. And, you know, you
can hear the reverb of the Beatitudes, blessed
are the merciful, as she spoke to President Trump.
for mercy for immigrants and vulnerable neighbors.
It was the gospel that she was proclaiming. some
of the worst principalities and powers, people
that called her a witch and a sorceress, saying
that she was compelled by the devil. And I always
say, I've been saying, John, if you didn't like
the two -minute homily of Mary and Buddy that
went viral, you're really not going to like the
Sermon on the Mount. Or, you know, the Magnificat
of Mary. Exactly. I mean, this is radical. Flip
the world upside down stuff. Wow, Shane Claiborne,
thank you so much for all this amazing inspiration
that you're giving me. And we're going to have
to continue this conversation many times. And
I wish you all the best. Thanks so much, Shane,
for speaking with me today. Just to wrap up here,
I want to thank all you friends for listening
to this Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear
many more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom
programs at www .beatitudecenter .org. Please
consider offering a donation to support this
free work, and if you can, leave a little positive
feedback or review at NCR or Apple or Spotify
or whatever platform you're using. Join me next
week when I'll continue to explore these questions.
I myself will reflect a little on Luke 10, how
Jesus sent the 72 out ahead of them as lambs
into the midst of wolves to proclaim God's reign,
like Shane is doing today. I thank you all so
much for listening. May the God of peace bless
everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus
and see you all next time. And thanks again,
Shane. Thank you, my brother.