WEBVTT 00:00:14.890 --> 00:00:17.829 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.829 --> 00:00:20.469 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.469 --> 00:00:24.269 with my friend Brian McLaren, author, theologian, 00:00:24.269 --> 00:00:27.589 and scripture scholar, about the topic, Following 00:00:27.589 --> 00:00:32.090 the Nonviolent Jesus in a Time of Rising Authoritarianism. 00:00:32.310 --> 00:00:37.429 This podcast is a project of www .beatitudescenter 00:00:37.429 --> 00:00:40.740 .org. where you can find many other podcasts 00:00:40.740 --> 00:00:43.799 and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:47.299 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:47.299 --> 00:00:50.780 for a more just, more peaceful world. So I'd 00:00:50.780 --> 00:00:52.740 like to begin with a little two -second prayer. 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:55.439 So I invite everyone who's listening to just 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.939 take a deep breath, wherever you are, and just 00:00:58.939 --> 00:01:03.960 relax and recenter yourself. And together, let's 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.560 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:10.609 loves you infinitely. and personally, and everyone. 00:01:11.290 --> 00:01:14.049 And let's welcome the gentle, nonviolent Jesus 00:01:14.049 --> 00:01:17.730 here with us and take a moment to ask for the 00:01:17.730 --> 00:01:20.750 grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully 00:01:20.750 --> 00:01:29.269 and do God's will. God of peace, thank you for 00:01:29.269 --> 00:01:31.569 all the blessings of life, love, and peace that 00:01:31.569 --> 00:01:35.180 you give us. Be with us now. as we reflect on 00:01:35.180 --> 00:01:38.959 the nonviolence of Jesus in this time of authoritarianism, 00:01:39.099 --> 00:01:43.579 oligarchy, fascism, death, destruction, and global 00:01:43.579 --> 00:01:48.239 collapse. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:51.640 us, and send us to do your will and proclaim 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.840 your way of peace, love, and nonviolence, that 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.379 we might all do our part to help end war and 00:01:57.379 --> 00:02:01.099 poverty. violence, racism, greed, oligarchy, 00:02:01.299 --> 00:02:03.680 nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction, 00:02:03.939 --> 00:02:06.700 that we might better follow the nonviolent Jesus 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:10.860 and be your beatitude people of universal love, 00:02:11.020 --> 00:02:14.439 universal compassion, and universal peace. In 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:18.180 Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's my great pleasure 00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:22.620 today to welcome my friend Brian McLaren to reflect 00:02:22.620 --> 00:02:25.319 with us on following the nonviolent Jesus in 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:29.819 a time of... rising authoritarianism. And so 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:33.020 with the growth of Christian nationalism, oligarchy, 00:02:33.099 --> 00:02:36.340 fascism, here at home under the Trump administration, 00:02:36.659 --> 00:02:40.400 with the Republican Party and Fox News, as well 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:42.979 as around the world, it's really great to welcome 00:02:42.979 --> 00:02:47.659 you, Brian, to help us understand the nonviolent 00:02:47.659 --> 00:02:51.439 Jesus in light of this, how he dealt with it 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:56.430 in his day and how we can respond today. I think 00:02:56.430 --> 00:02:58.710 one of the greatest scripture scholars and theologians 00:02:58.710 --> 00:03:02.069 in the world. He spent 24 years as a pastor in 00:03:02.069 --> 00:03:05.639 a local congregation in Washington, D .C. And 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:07.780 his life and ministry changed when, as a young 00:03:07.780 --> 00:03:10.860 evangelical pastor, he realized that he was called 00:03:10.860 --> 00:03:13.719 to be a follower of Jesus, not simply a follower 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:16.879 of the Bible or a theological system or religious 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.840 hierarchy. And wow, Brian, doesn't that make 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.919 all the difference? So for the last 25 years, 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:26.960 that's why I identify with Brian. As an author, 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.520 public speaker, teacher, and activist, he's been, 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.259 quote, Taking Jesus Public. I love that, Brian. 00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:36.400 And exploring how the life and message of Jesus 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.759 relate to issues of personal and public life 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:41.680 today. That's why I'm so happy to welcome you 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:44.180 to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Let me just 00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:46.759 give you a little plug about your books. Brian's 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:49.319 Dean of the Faculty for the Center of Action 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.479 and Contemplation. And you may not know, Brian, 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:55.870 but we just had on... Richard Rohr, talking about 00:03:55.870 --> 00:03:58.750 his... I just listened, and I loved the conversation. 00:03:59.250 --> 00:04:01.909 And then Brian has his own podcast called Learning 00:04:01.909 --> 00:04:05.069 How to See, and is co -host of Southern Lights. 00:04:05.469 --> 00:04:08.909 He's written a number of great bestsellers. Here 00:04:08.909 --> 00:04:12.669 are a few recent ones, or Faith After Doubt, 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:17.029 Do I Stay Christian, Life After Doom, Wisdom 00:04:17.029 --> 00:04:19.870 and Courage for a World Falling Apart. Everything 00:04:19.870 --> 00:04:22.290 Must Change, which is about the kingdom of God. 00:04:22.769 --> 00:04:27.410 Finding Our Way, about spiritual formation. And 00:04:27.410 --> 00:04:30.810 this great title, Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, 00:04:30.850 --> 00:04:34.149 and Muhammad Cross the Road? Now, Brian, it's 00:04:34.149 --> 00:04:36.029 hard to take you seriously with the title. No, 00:04:36.129 --> 00:04:39.329 that's just brilliant. Brian is a world -renowned 00:04:39.329 --> 00:04:43.470 speaker and lecturer. in churches and conferences 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:47.350 everywhere. He's married to Grace. They have 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:50.389 four adult children, five grandchildren. He's 00:04:50.389 --> 00:04:53.329 coming to us from Florida, where he lives, and 00:04:53.329 --> 00:04:55.769 he has an amazing website with all his books. 00:04:55.889 --> 00:05:01.189 Do check it out. It's at brianmclaren .net. Brian, 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:04.300 thanks for being with me today. Well, hey, John, 00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:06.939 I love any chance I get to be in conversation 00:05:06.939 --> 00:05:09.060 with you. And thanks for all those kind words. 00:05:09.139 --> 00:05:13.480 I fall far below them. So we should ask everybody 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.759 to lower their expectations. Not at all. Brian, 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:18.980 we're going to jump right into the deep end. 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:23.540 So everybody buckle your seatbelts. So here we 00:05:23.540 --> 00:05:26.660 are right in the thick of it with the Trump administration 00:05:26.660 --> 00:05:30.720 crushing the poor. building oligarchy, spreading 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.680 idolatry and Christian nationalism, and fascism, 00:05:34.699 --> 00:05:37.699 like the Nazis using Fox News as a propaganda, 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:42.240 and the churches and masses going right along 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.160 with it. And this has been going on, of course, 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.800 for decades or centuries, but it's really coming 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.540 to a head now. And basically creating disorder. 00:05:51.290 --> 00:05:54.069 So that the 1 % can get richer and the rest of 00:05:54.069 --> 00:05:56.629 the nation and the world can collapse. And recently, 00:05:56.769 --> 00:06:01.410 Brian, you wrote a second short e -book on authoritarianism 00:06:01.410 --> 00:06:04.170 called The Second Pandemic, which I haven't had 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:07.370 a chance to see. So let's start with that. Tell 00:06:07.370 --> 00:06:11.170 us, what is authoritarianism and what are your 00:06:11.170 --> 00:06:13.410 reflections from your book about what's happening? 00:06:14.209 --> 00:06:18.939 Well, I should tell you first. Way back in 2015 00:06:18.939 --> 00:06:22.800 and 2016, when Donald Trump was gaining steam, 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.399 remember first by promoting birther conspiracies 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:30.279 and so on, I contacted, I just had this feeling 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:34.439 something ugly and weird and psychological and 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.139 sociopathic and all was going on here. And I 00:06:37.139 --> 00:06:41.680 called a few psychologists and neuroscientists, 00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:44.579 friends of mine, and I said, look, send me any 00:06:44.579 --> 00:06:48.759 articles you can. that are peer -reviewed or 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.000 you think they're trustworthy and accurate, that 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:53.199 will help me understand what was going on. And 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.079 they started doing that. I started doing some 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:58.139 of my own research. And that was the genesis 00:06:58.139 --> 00:07:02.600 of this little e -book. And I put together a 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.879 little definition of authoritarianism. I could 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:07.420 share that. That might be a good place for us 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:12.100 to start. Authoritarianism is a process of centralizing 00:07:12.100 --> 00:07:16.550 power. in an individual party or cabal. Cabal 00:07:16.550 --> 00:07:21.329 just means a group of individuals, militia, religious 00:07:21.329 --> 00:07:25.310 leaders, powerful oligarchs, and so on. So a 00:07:25.310 --> 00:07:27.670 process of centralizing power in an individual 00:07:27.670 --> 00:07:30.889 party or cabal. And here's how they do it, by 00:07:30.889 --> 00:07:35.250 using fear of a real or concocted enemy. But 00:07:35.250 --> 00:07:39.170 fear is the special sauce. Radical division of 00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:44.569 society based on support for the regime. And 00:07:44.569 --> 00:07:51.250 then gross distortion of or diversion from the 00:07:51.250 --> 00:07:53.970 truth. And then finally suppression of dissent. 00:07:54.089 --> 00:07:57.649 Fear, division, distortion or diversion from 00:07:57.649 --> 00:08:00.689 the truth, and suppression of dissent. And that 00:08:00.689 --> 00:08:03.990 describes a phenomenon that comes up again and 00:08:03.990 --> 00:08:09.129 again and again in human history. We are we happen 00:08:09.129 --> 00:08:11.529 to be born at a time when the conditions were 00:08:11.529 --> 00:08:16.810 right for this to happen again. Wow, that's well 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:20.649 put. And we're living all of that right now as 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:25.730 never before in the United States. So you and 00:08:25.730 --> 00:08:30.370 I are interested in the wisdom. practicalities 00:08:30.370 --> 00:08:32.950 of active creative nonviolence and nonviolent 00:08:32.950 --> 00:08:36.809 resistance as taught by Gandhi and King as a 00:08:36.809 --> 00:08:41.250 way to understand Jesus. But tell me about nonviolent 00:08:41.250 --> 00:08:46.230 responses in general to authoritarianism. And 00:08:46.230 --> 00:08:53.669 you say in your e -book that one of the key things... 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:57.360 to be prepared to respond nonviolently. I mean, 00:08:57.399 --> 00:08:59.059 we've got to do something. We can't sit back 00:08:59.059 --> 00:09:01.779 and, right? Maybe you could talk about that too. 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.539 But you said in particular to learn about biases 00:09:05.539 --> 00:09:08.360 and prejudice and how that's used to manipulate 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:12.700 us. And that's all intentional. Yes, exactly 00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:16.500 right. Well, first, John, let me say, you know, 00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:19.059 for you and I who are followers of the nonviolent 00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:22.440 Jesus, when you look at Jesus, he's like the 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:26.279 absolute, inverse of an authoritarian leader. 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.019 Instead of using fear, he invites people toward 00:09:30.019 --> 00:09:33.200 faith, hope, and love. Instead of radically dividing 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.919 society, he creates tables and spaces where we 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:40.120 welcome everybody and we show love and respect 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.200 for everybody. Instead of gross distortion of 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.779 and diversion from the truth, he consistently 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:48.659 spoke the truth, even when it was painful. And 00:09:48.659 --> 00:09:50.980 he often understood that if he spoke the truth 00:09:50.980 --> 00:09:54.539 directly, nobody would even listen. So he often 00:09:54.539 --> 00:09:57.820 spoke the truth indirectly through parables and 00:09:57.820 --> 00:10:03.220 other masterful communication techniques to get 00:10:03.220 --> 00:10:06.019 around the biases that are so deeply ingrained 00:10:06.019 --> 00:10:08.340 in people. And then instead of the suppression 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:12.139 of dissent, he was an agent of dissent. He organized 00:10:12.139 --> 00:10:16.259 public demonstrations to show an alternative, 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.419 non -authoritarian, non -violent way. That is 00:10:20.419 --> 00:10:23.860 so beautifully helpful, the way you put that. 00:10:23.980 --> 00:10:28.100 I wasn't expecting that. And I wish we could 00:10:28.100 --> 00:10:30.159 talk about that for the rest of our lives, but 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:33.500 go on. I just want to say thank you for saying 00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:36.159 that. He's the opposite of authoritarianism. 00:10:36.379 --> 00:10:40.240 And he shows that God is the opposite of authoritarianism. 00:10:40.779 --> 00:10:43.440 Yes, exactly. We have a nonviolent God. Jesus 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.899 is nonviolent. By stooping to wash the feet of 00:10:47.899 --> 00:10:50.179 his disciples, suddenly you see why Peter in 00:10:50.179 --> 00:10:55.220 that story got so upset. This expression of power 00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:57.879 made no sense to him, the power of nonviolence, 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.259 the power of service, the power of humility. 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.740 And that's why I think Jesus said, hey, look, 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:06.639 if you can't be part of this, you're not part 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:08.899 of the thing I'm doing. I'm doing something that's 00:11:08.899 --> 00:11:13.019 such a different approach to leadership. Let 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:16.360 me mention one other thing before we move on, 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.799 and that is after World War II, a lot of people 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.139 started asking the obvious question, how could 00:11:24.139 --> 00:11:28.299 educated Europe, how could so -called civilized 00:11:28.299 --> 00:11:33.500 Europe, especially Germany, fall into the trap 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:37.139 of authoritarianism? And so a whole lot of people 00:11:37.139 --> 00:11:39.809 started doing... theorizing about it, historical 00:11:39.809 --> 00:11:42.149 research and psychological research. And there 00:11:42.149 --> 00:11:44.809 was a Canadian social psychologist named Bob 00:11:44.809 --> 00:11:48.570 Altemeier who did a huge amount of research on 00:11:48.570 --> 00:11:52.470 authoritarians. And this feature of his research, 00:11:52.470 --> 00:11:55.169 I think, is useful for us to know when we look 00:11:55.169 --> 00:11:58.289 around at our world today. He found that in every 00:11:58.289 --> 00:12:02.129 culture that he studied, about 30 % of people 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.440 had what he called authoritarian personalities. 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:07.620 This didn't mean they wanted to be authoritarian 00:12:07.620 --> 00:12:10.740 leaders. It meant that if you put them under 00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:14.580 enough stress, if you put them under stress or 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:18.840 shame, they were desperate for a strong man to 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.799 come and rescue them. So they became susceptible, 00:12:21.860 --> 00:12:25.039 because of their response to stress and shame, 00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:29.639 they became susceptible to those tactics of authoritarianism. 00:12:29.740 --> 00:12:32.940 And understanding that, first of all, helps me 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:36.759 have mercy on people around me. If I think this 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:41.220 is just a feature of a lot of people and they're 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:44.000 susceptible. And so when conditions get bad enough, 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:47.600 they're the first who kind of, they can't help 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.200 it. It's like, if you don't have immunity to 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:52.159 a disease and the disease comes through, you're 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:55.559 the first to become, the first to succumb. And 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:59.440 that helps me have a little mercy on people and 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.059 then maybe helps me think a little more about 00:13:02.059 --> 00:13:04.399 how we're going to get our messages through. 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.019 And that's where the research on bias came in. 00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:12.240 You know, here's one way to say it. Authoritarians 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.500 have this ability. It's like, it sounds terrible. 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:19.639 They have like an anti -spiritual gift of lying. 00:13:21.389 --> 00:13:25.230 And their lies fall in two categories or many 00:13:25.230 --> 00:13:27.230 categories, I'm sure, but two main ones. One 00:13:27.230 --> 00:13:30.190 is they tell you what you want to hear. So if 00:13:30.190 --> 00:13:33.470 you feel ashamed, they tell you it's not your 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:36.549 fault. It's somebody else's fault. If you feel 00:13:36.549 --> 00:13:39.190 afraid, they tell you, well, look, I can fix 00:13:39.190 --> 00:13:42.929 it all. It'll be easy. So they tell you what 00:13:42.929 --> 00:13:45.090 you want to hear. And then the second thing they 00:13:45.090 --> 00:13:49.840 do is they bombard you with so many lies. that 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.580 you stop believing you can even know what the 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:55.679 truth is. And in a certain way, they help you 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:59.440 bypass your own critical thinking. So you subcontract 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.080 out your thinking to the authoritarian and his 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.679 allies. So you put all that together. And that's 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:09.980 why I think a podcast like this is so important. 00:14:10.100 --> 00:14:14.259 We need to go to places that help us sort of... 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:18.740 Get a different leverage point so we don't succumb 00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.740 to the barrage of lies and all the other psychological 00:14:21.740 --> 00:14:24.820 manipulations that could suck us into trouble. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:27.899 How do we do that? I think that means, well, 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.539 for me, I don't watch the news. I only read stuff. 00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:37.840 And I encourage people not to listen to Fox News 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:40.360 in particular because it's an organized propaganda. 00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:47.179 But a lot of the news is. And also, I'm really 00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:50.000 trying to get the truth from the Gospels and 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.000 the peacemakers and the movements around the 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.899 world. What do you think? How can we educate 00:14:53.899 --> 00:14:57.500 ourselves against these biases and being trained 00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:01.820 to believe lies, really? Yeah. Well, listen, 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:03.620 let me say two things for starters, and then 00:15:03.620 --> 00:15:06.419 we'll see where we want to go first. To me, this 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:10.240 is just a sign of a terrible... shortfall of 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.279 the church of the last couple generations. The 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.399 Christian faith ought to be a place that's educating 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.799 people. How many times did Jesus say, you have 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:23.899 ears, but you don't hear? Take heed how you hear. 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.110 He constantly told us. that we ought to listen 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:30.090 with critical thinking, with discernment. And 00:15:30.090 --> 00:15:32.590 our churches have just left us sitting ducks 00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:35.090 for this. Often our churches, in a certain sense, 00:15:35.169 --> 00:15:38.129 have had their own form of religious authoritarianism 00:15:38.129 --> 00:15:42.809 that then sets us up for political authoritarianism. 00:15:42.809 --> 00:15:46.409 Not only that, but our current authoritarianism 00:15:46.409 --> 00:15:49.350 isn't just military and political leaders. It's 00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:54.269 also the world's most, the richest billionaires, 00:15:54.330 --> 00:15:57.700 the oligarchs. And so you put them in the picture 00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:02.299 and they control media, they control the algorithms, 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.679 and you just realize there is so much working 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.480 against us. We need communities that will help 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.679 us undo the brainwashing, let's say it that way. 00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:17.840 And if we can't find it in our churches, and 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.120 sadly many of our churches have just, you know, 00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:24.710 they haven't shown up for duty. And that's when 00:16:24.710 --> 00:16:27.509 we find suddenly what Jesus said makes sense. 00:16:27.690 --> 00:16:30.389 If two or three of you gather in my name, if 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:33.090 you gather to be part of my work of peace, if 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:36.509 you gather in the whole identity that I'm manifesting 00:16:36.509 --> 00:16:38.669 in the world, this anti -authoritarian identity, 00:16:38.990 --> 00:16:41.409 two or three of you get together, I'll be there 00:16:41.409 --> 00:16:44.289 with you. You'll be able to get some vantage 00:16:44.289 --> 00:16:46.669 points, some guidance, some comfort, some stability. 00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:49.789 And so that's what I think we need. And in some 00:16:49.789 --> 00:16:51.789 ways, that's what a podcast like this does. It 00:16:51.789 --> 00:16:54.399 creates a space in the privacy. of someone's 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:58.000 car or earphones where they can hear a different 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.679 perspective. Well, you said where we go with 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.799 all this. So we're going to, I want to spend 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.339 our time talking about Jesus. But one last thought 00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:09.539 about all of this is, you know, that I totally 00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:12.819 agree with you that I think the Gospel of John, 00:17:12.940 --> 00:17:16.200 which is written long after the synoptics, actually 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.019 kind of comes out and says it. Hey, the problem 00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:21.740 is not the rest of the world. It's you followers 00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:24.400 aren't doing what you're. I'm telling you to 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.519 do. It's the church. And John was trying to tell 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:32.839 that. So I never could understand what happened 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.420 in Germany and the Nazis. And I've been studying 00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:38.180 it too. And then you read Bonhoeffer and what 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:41.059 he was up against with the Protestant churches. 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.400 Or my friend Gordon Zahn, who wrote an early 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.180 book called German Catholics and Hitler's Wars. 00:17:49.289 --> 00:17:51.950 I remember, Brian, my mom, when I was young, 00:17:52.029 --> 00:17:56.170 mailed me a picture she found once. All the Catholic 00:17:56.170 --> 00:18:01.049 bishops and cardinals of Germany around 1937 00:18:01.049 --> 00:18:06.210 in full regalia with Hitler in the center, all 00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:09.150 wearing swastikas and all holding champagne glasses, 00:18:09.369 --> 00:18:12.990 and all of them with Hitler smiling. And that 00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:14.990 has stayed with me for my whole life because 00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:19.079 that's it. All of that's playing out now in the 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.440 United States, certainly in the Catholic Church 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.059 as the bishops and priests are blindly following 00:18:25.059 --> 00:18:34.000 this oligarchy. So there we have that. And, you 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.859 know, I guess I never really thought I'd live 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:39.599 to experience that like they did, poor Bonhoeffer 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:43.099 and others suffered in Germany. And we're going 00:18:43.099 --> 00:18:47.920 through that, of course. And so. That's why I'm 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.279 talking about the nonviolent Jesus and looking 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.099 toward him, because I don't think there's any 00:18:54.099 --> 00:18:58.059 other way to help us out of our insanity. So 00:18:58.059 --> 00:19:00.220 I guess my question, and then do you agree with 00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:04.380 all of that? And then tell me about the nonviolent 00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:08.420 Jesus and how he responded to the authoritarianism 00:19:08.420 --> 00:19:10.599 in his day. You already did it well, but go to 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.549 town on it. Yes, yes, yes. Well, yes, everything 00:19:13.549 --> 00:19:17.250 you said just resonates deeply. And that image 00:19:17.250 --> 00:19:21.650 of church leaders toasting or drinking wine and 00:19:21.650 --> 00:19:26.309 having a merry time with Hitler, of course, we 00:19:26.309 --> 00:19:29.009 have seen so many corollaries to that in recent 00:19:29.009 --> 00:19:31.690 years. And they turn the stomach and they break 00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:36.390 the heart and they just force us to say, you 00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:40.789 know, things. Five years ago, 10 years ago, things 00:19:40.789 --> 00:19:43.289 were not as good as we might have thought because 00:19:43.289 --> 00:19:47.509 unsolved problems and unaddressed issues that 00:19:47.509 --> 00:19:50.869 took a long time to develop brought us to this 00:19:50.869 --> 00:19:53.490 place. So what we're experiencing now didn't 00:19:53.490 --> 00:19:56.890 pop out of nowhere. This is the result of unaddressed 00:19:56.890 --> 00:20:00.390 issues for a long time. So when I think about 00:20:00.390 --> 00:20:02.930 what happens here and what does the nonviolent 00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:06.170 Jesus, his life and teaching say to us at a time 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:09.220 like this? The first thing I'd say is we have 00:20:09.220 --> 00:20:11.700 got to find places where we can actually talk 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:13.799 about the nonviolent Jesus. You might remember 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.359 the Episcopal Bishop Marianne Buddy when she 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.640 just called for mercy. A pretty Christlike thing 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:24.299 to do, right? And the people who most viciously 00:20:24.299 --> 00:20:27.460 attacked her were conservative Christians, right? 00:20:27.619 --> 00:20:30.940 They called her names and called her the devil 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:33.579 and all kinds of things. So we have to realize. 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:37.019 It's not even safe in many of our Christian communities. 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.160 And I think we're going to have to consciously 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:42.440 find the people who we can speak freely with 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:47.160 and who share a diagnosis of the trouble we're 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.240 in. And not only do we gather to help ourselves 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.440 keep sane and follow the nonviolent path, but 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:57.819 it helps us go into the world with a spirit of 00:20:57.819 --> 00:20:59.680 nonviolence. You know, I live here in Florida 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.440 where support for Trump is super, super high. 00:21:03.259 --> 00:21:06.180 But what I've noticed in the last couple of weeks, 00:21:06.339 --> 00:21:10.019 really, since the new year, and especially since 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:13.619 the inauguration, I'm noticing people going out 00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:16.019 of their way to be kind. And I know these are 00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:18.160 the people who aren't happy with what's happening. 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:24.859 I was at the Episcopal Church that I attend Sunday, 00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:27.640 and there's an African -American fellow who helps 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:29.720 us with our sound, all of our sound equipment. 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.000 And I noticed a number of white people came over 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.400 and went out of their way to say hi to him and 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:37.519 make a connection with him. And I thought to 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:42.000 myself, as they're watching this ugly white supremacy 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.640 be coddled under this regime, they know we're 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:48.440 in trouble and they're going out of their way 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.259 to try through small acts of kindness to make 00:21:51.259 --> 00:21:53.410 a difference. And I think that's... Loving our 00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:55.430 neighbors is not a small thing, according to 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.410 the nonviolent Jesus. Walking across the road 00:21:58.410 --> 00:22:00.269 to help the guy who's been thrown in the ditch 00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:05.569 is not a small thing. And so I think those become 00:22:05.569 --> 00:22:08.569 ways that we begin. There's a lot more we could 00:22:08.569 --> 00:22:10.869 say about resistance and so on in times like 00:22:10.869 --> 00:22:14.210 this. And I think we all have to be preparing 00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:18.269 ourselves for, I think we have to let some of 00:22:18.269 --> 00:22:21.250 the worst case scenarios run through our minds. 00:22:22.509 --> 00:22:26.470 as miserable and horrible as that is, so that 00:22:26.470 --> 00:22:29.150 we can say, if that starts to happen, what are 00:22:29.150 --> 00:22:33.130 we going to do? And yeah, and that's where having 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:35.029 some people to talk about this together really 00:22:35.029 --> 00:22:37.150 makes a difference. Well, tell me just a couple 00:22:37.150 --> 00:22:39.430 of, you said that beautifully at the beginning 00:22:39.430 --> 00:22:41.950 there about Jesus, that little summation, a few 00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:46.269 more concrete, any more things about Jesus, whether... 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.579 things he said, his teachings, or his examples 00:22:49.579 --> 00:22:55.019 that we can use to respond nonviolently to this 00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:59.980 rising authoritarianism? Yes. Well, we already 00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:04.880 spoke about Bishop Marianne Buddy and what we 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:07.920 all may find. We all might not have a stage like 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:10.940 she had that day that was televised and so on. 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:15.880 We will find places where someone says something 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.440 shabby, someone says something racist, someone 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.839 says something harmful. And if we're prepared 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.559 at that moment, we can just speak up. I try to 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.079 give people a little script that I think can 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.019 help even the least experienced and least confident 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:36.660 of us have a starting place. And that is when 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:39.599 we hear someone say something harmful about... 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.460 our immigrant brothers and sisters or something 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:46.039 harmful about people of a minority race or religion 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:50.619 or heartless and callous about Gaza or something 00:23:50.619 --> 00:23:53.319 like that, that we just say, hey, I need you 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:55.660 to know I see that differently. My little five 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:58.519 word script is, wow, I see that differently. 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:02.299 And almost any time I have a friend of mine calls 00:24:02.299 --> 00:24:05.359 this the courage to differ graciously. And almost 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:09.259 any time I speak up and differ graciously, boldly 00:24:09.259 --> 00:24:11.160 but graciously, wow, I see that differently. 00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:14.500 Not, wow, you're really ignorant, which is just 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:16.400 going to create a battle of ego. Yeah, that's 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.859 been my style over the years. That's beautiful. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.920 Wow, I see that differently. That's very helpful 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.500 and nonviolent teaching. What else, especially 00:24:26.500 --> 00:24:30.279 from Jesus, do you see that we could try? And 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:35.519 this is where, when Jesus says, let your yes 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:37.960 be yes and your no be no, sometimes we just have 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.339 to be clear. It's as simple as raising our hand 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:43.539 or just saying, I need you to know I don't go 00:24:43.539 --> 00:24:45.220 along with that. I need you to know I see that 00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:48.200 differently. Almost always people will then follow 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.619 up, well, what do you mean? And here's something 00:24:50.619 --> 00:24:54.799 I've learned in private social situations. If 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:58.000 there's a group of people witnessing a conversation 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.180 or a confrontation like this, the person we're 00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:05.680 standing up to or standing up in opposition to 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.599 what they've said, they're now going to perform. 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.339 And it won't be a good opportunity for real communication. 00:25:13.700 --> 00:25:16.480 It's an opportunity for this person to perform 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:19.180 and show how he's a good soldier of his cause. 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.039 So what I often will say is the important thing 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:24.200 is. I need you to know I see it differently. 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.380 If you're interested in knowing why, you or then 00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:29.140 you turn to the other people around, or any of 00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:31.460 you, just ask me in private, and I'd love to 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:34.779 tell you. Now, sometimes a public confrontation 00:25:34.779 --> 00:25:37.759 is necessary, as with Bishop Buddy, but often 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.319 when people come to us in private, so many of 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.599 Jesus' conversations, you know, they happen in 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:46.259 private. Because if we really want to help people 00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.519 change, sometimes we need them to take the first 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.039 step to come to us and to not be performing for 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.599 others. I suppose that's why Nicodemus came to 00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.500 Jesus at night in the Gospel of John. He had 00:25:59.500 --> 00:26:01.960 to get out of the performance mode so there could 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.519 be a real connection. That's brilliant. Okay. 00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:07.750 I want to ask you about the public mode then. 00:26:07.910 --> 00:26:11.809 And so I am talking with you now. And then the 00:26:11.809 --> 00:26:14.009 following podcast will be with our friend. We're 00:26:14.009 --> 00:26:16.190 going to continue this theme with our friend 00:26:16.190 --> 00:26:19.569 Shane Claiborne. And then I'm going to do a podcast 00:26:19.569 --> 00:26:23.730 on Luke 10 as a way to respond. And so I want 00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:26.049 your thoughts about that. My take is that Jesus 00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:30.839 is. Brian, I always joke in public, Jesus thinks 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.039 he's Gandhi. He thinks he's Martin Luther King. 00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:35.680 I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. But 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:38.099 anyway, he's doing all this great stuff, and 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:41.410 he's doing the one -on -one. He really wrecks 00:26:41.410 --> 00:26:45.930 it. It says in Luke 9, verse 51, he turned and 00:26:45.930 --> 00:26:49.750 the verse is, he turned and set his face to Jerusalem. 00:26:49.829 --> 00:26:53.069 Like, okay, I'm dealing with this. And then he 00:26:53.069 --> 00:26:55.890 forms a movement according to Luke 10. He sends 00:26:55.890 --> 00:26:59.650 72 ahead, lambs in the midst of wolves, to speak 00:26:59.650 --> 00:27:02.150 out about the coming of the reign of God. It's 00:27:02.150 --> 00:27:05.059 a movement. Just like Gandhi's salt march. He 00:27:05.059 --> 00:27:07.440 gets to Jerusalem, he breaks down sobbing, and 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.960 he doesn't give up there. He then goes in and 00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:13.000 does nonviolent direct action, civil disobedience 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.480 in the temple. You're going to be killed in 24 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:20.980 hours, and he is. How do we engage in public 00:27:20.980 --> 00:27:25.740 nonviolent action and resistance to this rising 00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:28.460 authoritarian? And I think it's going to mean... 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.940 everybody's got to get involved in the movement, 00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:33.700 that old phrase, all hands on deck. But I want 00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:36.660 to hear what you think about that. Yeah, I couldn't 00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:39.279 agree with you more. The thing that's so challenging 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.859 right now is that we aren't sure the lay of the 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:49.140 land that we're going to face. And I think we're 00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:51.539 dealing with a more complex situation than we 00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:53.940 were when you and I got arrested back in the 00:27:53.940 --> 00:28:00.130 1990s together. Because now we have this coalition 00:28:00.130 --> 00:28:05.289 of the richest oligarchs in the world and the 00:28:05.289 --> 00:28:08.349 most powerful government in the world with the 00:28:08.349 --> 00:28:12.329 most lethal weapons in the world and the government 00:28:12.329 --> 00:28:15.970 that is defying concern for the earth with a 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:18.769 brazenness and a stupidity that's just hard to 00:28:18.769 --> 00:28:24.140 – you can't over – estimate what what the damage 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:26.640 that's going to be done to the earth under this 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.019 administration so you put all of that together 00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:32.119 and i think we are all going to have to keep 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:35.279 our eyes open and listen for the people who are 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.099 organizing and you know anything you organize 00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:40.960 i want to be part of because i trust you so much 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.200 and and those of us who are organizing together 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.299 And we're going to have to keep our ears open 00:28:46.299 --> 00:28:49.000 for the right time to do the right thing. You 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:51.279 know, there are times when Jesus is in the middle 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.819 of a huge crowd and he disappears from the crowd. 00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.640 I think he knows this is not the right time for 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.420 me to get killed quite yet. And it's not because 00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:02.619 he's afraid. It's because he has a strategy. 00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:06.900 But when the time comes, he goes to Jerusalem 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.380 and basically says, okay, this is it. It's time 00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:13.680 for the life or death confrontation. So you mentioned 00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:16.380 the church and the failures of the church, and 00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:20.480 I put it down to very, very clearly year 315, 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.190 Constantine the Emperor, theoretically. converts 00:29:24.190 --> 00:29:27.329 and makes christianity which is an illegal underground 00:29:27.329 --> 00:29:29.970 evil movement as far as the empire is concerned 00:29:29.970 --> 00:29:33.230 makes it legal says you can no longer have to 00:29:33.230 --> 00:29:34.950 practice the sermon on the mountain non -violence 00:29:34.950 --> 00:29:36.930 you can all be roman soldiers and the next thing 00:29:36.930 --> 00:29:39.109 you know we got the just war theory and here 00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:42.930 we are well a lot of good people are still are 00:29:42.930 --> 00:29:45.029 there's people still staying with the church 00:29:45.029 --> 00:29:48.670 like you and i and um you've been doing this 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:51.980 for years and in light of all this My question 00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:55.640 would be, you know, what can people do to help 00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.680 their local church and even the broader church 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.380 move more toward the nonviolent Jesus? And I 00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:04.539 never heard anybody talk about that beautiful 00:30:04.539 --> 00:30:07.940 teaching, two or three are gathered. So any other 00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:10.460 thoughts for good people who are staying in the 00:30:10.460 --> 00:30:14.440 church about what we can do now to help move 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.079 the church? Well, you know, let me give a couple 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:20.799 of very specific things. I was a pastor for 24 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.680 years. If you go to your priest or your pastor 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:28.039 in private and without making threats, with the 00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:31.319 most compassionate heart you can, to go to your 00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:33.500 priest or pastor and say, could you give me an 00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:37.039 idea of where you stand in what's going on with 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:40.960 our government right now? You know, this resurgence 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:43.259 of white supremacy and this carelessness toward 00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:45.460 the poor and this cavalier attitude toward the 00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:47.700 earth and so on. Could you give me an idea of 00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:52.299 where you stand? And say to them, I'm not going 00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:54.720 to judge you. I just really want to know, right? 00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:56.819 And then the priest or pastor might say, well, 00:30:56.859 --> 00:31:00.019 where do you stand? And then you can share. What 00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:03.160 that allows you to do is to say, and you might 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.490 even say, listen. If I were to try to organize 00:31:06.490 --> 00:31:09.869 people in our church to be thinking about this 00:31:09.869 --> 00:31:12.089 and facing these issues, for example, they might 00:31:12.089 --> 00:31:15.829 say, I'd like to use Father John Deere's book 00:31:15.829 --> 00:31:18.849 on the nonviolent Jesus and his reading of the 00:31:18.849 --> 00:31:22.289 Gospels for a book study. Or we'd like to listen 00:31:22.289 --> 00:31:26.430 to John Deere's podcast and have a discussion 00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:28.690 on it every week or something like that. Would 00:31:28.690 --> 00:31:32.069 that be okay with you? What would be ways like, 00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:34.849 could I organize this through the church? Or 00:31:34.849 --> 00:31:37.369 should I just do it privately with some friends? 00:31:37.410 --> 00:31:39.730 In other words, you don't give the priest or 00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:41.670 pastor permission to tell you what you can or 00:31:41.670 --> 00:31:44.490 can't do privately, but you can see how much 00:31:44.490 --> 00:31:46.509 room there is for you in the church. If I were 00:31:46.509 --> 00:31:48.690 a pastor and someone came to me with that spirit, 00:31:48.950 --> 00:31:51.369 it would do a couple of things. It would let 00:31:51.369 --> 00:31:53.490 me know first, if I'm not happy about what's 00:31:53.490 --> 00:31:55.910 going on, I have somebody here who could back 00:31:55.910 --> 00:31:57.829 me up and maybe I'll have a little more courage. 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:00.559 And if they aren't going to be supportive, it 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:03.299 just lets you know you're going to have to—obviously, 00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:05.339 you work through your network of relationships. 00:32:05.660 --> 00:32:08.039 It just won't be able to be formally through 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:12.819 the real estate of the church, perhaps. So many 00:32:12.819 --> 00:32:15.779 people have— walked away from their ministers 00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:17.500 and priests. They remain in the church, but they 00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:20.440 don't dialogue with them. And for my whole life, 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.000 I've seen, that's not it. That's not love. Anybody 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.099 can be angry, but to go and talk to them and 00:32:28.099 --> 00:32:31.279 give them gifts, because they're all poor people 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.940 who are failing Jesus. We all know it. And I 00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:38.079 think what you say is so helpful, and I'm glad 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:42.420 you're saying it. You know, Oscar Romero, I heard 00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:44.519 this from the Jesuits who were killed in El Salvador. 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.359 They hated him. He was about as worse as you 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:50.359 can get. And everybody wrote him off except for 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.700 one Jesuit, Rutilio Grande. And when he was shot 00:32:53.700 --> 00:32:57.660 and killed, Romero did a 180 and became maybe 00:32:57.660 --> 00:32:59.859 the greatest bishop who ever lived in history. 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:03.619 And it's only because somebody reached out to 00:33:03.619 --> 00:33:06.819 him, Rutilio. And I think that's a parable for 00:33:06.819 --> 00:33:08.920 us here in the U .S. I don't mean to give a speech. 00:33:09.950 --> 00:33:12.170 We've used up our time, so let me end with one 00:33:12.170 --> 00:33:20.509 last question. Well, any last words of hope and 00:33:20.509 --> 00:33:24.269 encouragement as we wrap this up for our listeners, 00:33:24.450 --> 00:33:27.809 Brian? Well, John, one of the things that Jesus 00:33:27.809 --> 00:33:30.910 said and did, especially near the end of his 00:33:30.910 --> 00:33:34.680 public ministry, He didn't tell people everything's 00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:37.220 going to be fine next week. He didn't even tell 00:33:37.220 --> 00:33:39.460 them, look, Friday is going to be bad, but everything 00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:42.640 will be fine on Sunday. He didn't give them false 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.500 hope. And this actually gives me a deeper hope 00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:50.380 when I'm prepared to face the fact that things 00:33:50.380 --> 00:33:52.839 might get worse, and then they might get worse, 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:55.220 and then they might get worse. When I realize 00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:58.180 that, it then makes me say, I need to wake up. 00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:01.740 to the full gravity of our situation. And I need 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:05.400 to decide how I want to show up in these times. 00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:09.920 And to me, that's the deepest question that, 00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:13.659 you know, here at my age, I'll be 70 soon. And 00:34:13.659 --> 00:34:17.719 I just keep finding myself saying, how do I want 00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:21.000 to show up? This is my one and only life. How 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:26.280 do I want to show up? And just asking the question 00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:30.489 helps us be. decisive and proactive rather than 00:34:30.489 --> 00:34:33.550 fearful and reactive. And of course, if we've 00:34:33.550 --> 00:34:36.090 committed our hearts to the nonviolent Jesus, 00:34:36.190 --> 00:34:40.809 then of course, we now have a direction where 00:34:40.809 --> 00:34:44.449 we've set our face to go in as well. Wow, that's 00:34:44.449 --> 00:34:46.909 so beautiful, Brian. Thank you so much, Brian 00:34:46.909 --> 00:34:50.389 McLaren, for speaking with me today and encouraging 00:34:50.389 --> 00:34:54.070 all of us to commit our hearts like more than 00:34:54.070 --> 00:34:56.800 ever now. no matter how old we are, to the nonviolence 00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:00.659 of Jesus and the will of God and just say, right, 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.889 we're getting on with living the gospel. So thanks, 00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:06.150 friends, for listening to this podcast. And you 00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:08.329 can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:35:08.329 --> 00:35:13.369 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:35:13.869 --> 00:35:16.769 And please consider offering a donation to support 00:35:16.769 --> 00:35:19.849 this free work. And if you can, please leave 00:35:19.849 --> 00:35:23.550 some positive feedback or review at NCR or Apple 00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:27.190 or Spotify or whatever platform you use. Join 00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:29.829 me next week as we continue these questions and 00:35:29.829 --> 00:35:34.110 themes with our... activist and lecturer, our 00:35:34.110 --> 00:35:37.389 great friend Shane Claiborne. May the God of 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:40.650 peace bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent 00:35:40.650 --> 00:35:42.730 Jesus. See you all next time.