Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Brian McLaren, author, theologian,
and scripture scholar, about the topic, Following
the Nonviolent Jesus in a Time of Rising Authoritarianism.
This podcast is a project of www .beatitudescenter
.org. where you can find many other podcasts
and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence
of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working
for a more just, more peaceful world. So I'd
like to begin with a little two -second prayer.
So I invite everyone who's listening to just
take a deep breath, wherever you are, and just
relax and recenter yourself. And together, let's
enter into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you infinitely. and personally, and everyone.
And let's welcome the gentle, nonviolent Jesus
here with us and take a moment to ask for the
grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully
and do God's will. God of peace, thank you for
all the blessings of life, love, and peace that
you give us. Be with us now. as we reflect on
the nonviolence of Jesus in this time of authoritarianism,
oligarchy, fascism, death, destruction, and global
collapse. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen
us, and send us to do your will and proclaim
your way of peace, love, and nonviolence, that
we might all do our part to help end war and
poverty. violence, racism, greed, oligarchy,
nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction,
that we might better follow the nonviolent Jesus
and be your beatitude people of universal love,
universal compassion, and universal peace. In
Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's my great pleasure
today to welcome my friend Brian McLaren to reflect
with us on following the nonviolent Jesus in
a time of... rising authoritarianism. And so
with the growth of Christian nationalism, oligarchy,
fascism, here at home under the Trump administration,
with the Republican Party and Fox News, as well
as around the world, it's really great to welcome
you, Brian, to help us understand the nonviolent
Jesus in light of this, how he dealt with it
in his day and how we can respond today. I think
one of the greatest scripture scholars and theologians
in the world. He spent 24 years as a pastor in
a local congregation in Washington, D .C. And
his life and ministry changed when, as a young
evangelical pastor, he realized that he was called
to be a follower of Jesus, not simply a follower
of the Bible or a theological system or religious
hierarchy. And wow, Brian, doesn't that make
all the difference? So for the last 25 years,
that's why I identify with Brian. As an author,
public speaker, teacher, and activist, he's been,
quote, Taking Jesus Public. I love that, Brian.
And exploring how the life and message of Jesus
relate to issues of personal and public life
today. That's why I'm so happy to welcome you
to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Let me just
give you a little plug about your books. Brian's
Dean of the Faculty for the Center of Action
and Contemplation. And you may not know, Brian,
but we just had on... Richard Rohr, talking about
his... I just listened, and I loved the conversation.
And then Brian has his own podcast called Learning
How to See, and is co -host of Southern Lights.
He's written a number of great bestsellers. Here
are a few recent ones, or Faith After Doubt,
Do I Stay Christian, Life After Doom, Wisdom
and Courage for a World Falling Apart. Everything
Must Change, which is about the kingdom of God.
Finding Our Way, about spiritual formation. And
this great title, Why Did Jesus, Moses, the Buddha,
and Muhammad Cross the Road? Now, Brian, it's
hard to take you seriously with the title. No,
that's just brilliant. Brian is a world -renowned
speaker and lecturer. in churches and conferences
everywhere. He's married to Grace. They have
four adult children, five grandchildren. He's
coming to us from Florida, where he lives, and
he has an amazing website with all his books.
Do check it out. It's at brianmclaren .net. Brian,
thanks for being with me today. Well, hey, John,
I love any chance I get to be in conversation
with you. And thanks for all those kind words.
I fall far below them. So we should ask everybody
to lower their expectations. Not at all. Brian,
we're going to jump right into the deep end.
So everybody buckle your seatbelts. So here we
are right in the thick of it with the Trump administration
crushing the poor. building oligarchy, spreading
idolatry and Christian nationalism, and fascism,
like the Nazis using Fox News as a propaganda,
and the churches and masses going right along
with it. And this has been going on, of course,
for decades or centuries, but it's really coming
to a head now. And basically creating disorder.
So that the 1 % can get richer and the rest of
the nation and the world can collapse. And recently,
Brian, you wrote a second short e -book on authoritarianism
called The Second Pandemic, which I haven't had
a chance to see. So let's start with that. Tell
us, what is authoritarianism and what are your
reflections from your book about what's happening?
Well, I should tell you first. Way back in 2015
and 2016, when Donald Trump was gaining steam,
remember first by promoting birther conspiracies
and so on, I contacted, I just had this feeling
something ugly and weird and psychological and
sociopathic and all was going on here. And I
called a few psychologists and neuroscientists,
friends of mine, and I said, look, send me any
articles you can. that are peer -reviewed or
you think they're trustworthy and accurate, that
will help me understand what was going on. And
they started doing that. I started doing some
of my own research. And that was the genesis
of this little e -book. And I put together a
little definition of authoritarianism. I could
share that. That might be a good place for us
to start. Authoritarianism is a process of centralizing
power. in an individual party or cabal. Cabal
just means a group of individuals, militia, religious
leaders, powerful oligarchs, and so on. So a
process of centralizing power in an individual
party or cabal. And here's how they do it, by
using fear of a real or concocted enemy. But
fear is the special sauce. Radical division of
society based on support for the regime. And
then gross distortion of or diversion from the
truth. And then finally suppression of dissent.
Fear, division, distortion or diversion from
the truth, and suppression of dissent. And that
describes a phenomenon that comes up again and
again and again in human history. We are we happen
to be born at a time when the conditions were
right for this to happen again. Wow, that's well
put. And we're living all of that right now as
never before in the United States. So you and
I are interested in the wisdom. practicalities
of active creative nonviolence and nonviolent
resistance as taught by Gandhi and King as a
way to understand Jesus. But tell me about nonviolent
responses in general to authoritarianism. And
you say in your e -book that one of the key things...
to be prepared to respond nonviolently. I mean,
we've got to do something. We can't sit back
and, right? Maybe you could talk about that too.
But you said in particular to learn about biases
and prejudice and how that's used to manipulate
us. And that's all intentional. Yes, exactly
right. Well, first, John, let me say, you know,
for you and I who are followers of the nonviolent
Jesus, when you look at Jesus, he's like the
absolute, inverse of an authoritarian leader.
Instead of using fear, he invites people toward
faith, hope, and love. Instead of radically dividing
society, he creates tables and spaces where we
welcome everybody and we show love and respect
for everybody. Instead of gross distortion of
and diversion from the truth, he consistently
spoke the truth, even when it was painful. And
he often understood that if he spoke the truth
directly, nobody would even listen. So he often
spoke the truth indirectly through parables and
other masterful communication techniques to get
around the biases that are so deeply ingrained
in people. And then instead of the suppression
of dissent, he was an agent of dissent. He organized
public demonstrations to show an alternative,
non -authoritarian, non -violent way. That is
so beautifully helpful, the way you put that.
I wasn't expecting that. And I wish we could
talk about that for the rest of our lives, but
go on. I just want to say thank you for saying
that. He's the opposite of authoritarianism.
And he shows that God is the opposite of authoritarianism.
Yes, exactly. We have a nonviolent God. Jesus
is nonviolent. By stooping to wash the feet of
his disciples, suddenly you see why Peter in
that story got so upset. This expression of power
made no sense to him, the power of nonviolence,
the power of service, the power of humility.
And that's why I think Jesus said, hey, look,
if you can't be part of this, you're not part
of the thing I'm doing. I'm doing something that's
such a different approach to leadership. Let
me mention one other thing before we move on,
and that is after World War II, a lot of people
started asking the obvious question, how could
educated Europe, how could so -called civilized
Europe, especially Germany, fall into the trap
of authoritarianism? And so a whole lot of people
started doing... theorizing about it, historical
research and psychological research. And there
was a Canadian social psychologist named Bob
Altemeier who did a huge amount of research on
authoritarians. And this feature of his research,
I think, is useful for us to know when we look
around at our world today. He found that in every
culture that he studied, about 30 % of people
had what he called authoritarian personalities.
This didn't mean they wanted to be authoritarian
leaders. It meant that if you put them under
enough stress, if you put them under stress or
shame, they were desperate for a strong man to
come and rescue them. So they became susceptible,
because of their response to stress and shame,
they became susceptible to those tactics of authoritarianism.
And understanding that, first of all, helps me
have mercy on people around me. If I think this
is just a feature of a lot of people and they're
susceptible. And so when conditions get bad enough,
they're the first who kind of, they can't help
it. It's like, if you don't have immunity to
a disease and the disease comes through, you're
the first to become, the first to succumb. And
that helps me have a little mercy on people and
then maybe helps me think a little more about
how we're going to get our messages through.
And that's where the research on bias came in.
You know, here's one way to say it. Authoritarians
have this ability. It's like, it sounds terrible.
They have like an anti -spiritual gift of lying.
And their lies fall in two categories or many
categories, I'm sure, but two main ones. One
is they tell you what you want to hear. So if
you feel ashamed, they tell you it's not your
fault. It's somebody else's fault. If you feel
afraid, they tell you, well, look, I can fix
it all. It'll be easy. So they tell you what
you want to hear. And then the second thing they
do is they bombard you with so many lies. that
you stop believing you can even know what the
truth is. And in a certain way, they help you
bypass your own critical thinking. So you subcontract
out your thinking to the authoritarian and his
allies. So you put all that together. And that's
why I think a podcast like this is so important.
We need to go to places that help us sort of...
Get a different leverage point so we don't succumb
to the barrage of lies and all the other psychological
manipulations that could suck us into trouble.
How do we do that? I think that means, well,
for me, I don't watch the news. I only read stuff.
And I encourage people not to listen to Fox News
in particular because it's an organized propaganda.
But a lot of the news is. And also, I'm really
trying to get the truth from the Gospels and
the peacemakers and the movements around the
world. What do you think? How can we educate
ourselves against these biases and being trained
to believe lies, really? Yeah. Well, listen,
let me say two things for starters, and then
we'll see where we want to go first. To me, this
is just a sign of a terrible... shortfall of
the church of the last couple generations. The
Christian faith ought to be a place that's educating
people. How many times did Jesus say, you have
ears, but you don't hear? Take heed how you hear.
He constantly told us. that we ought to listen
with critical thinking, with discernment. And
our churches have just left us sitting ducks
for this. Often our churches, in a certain sense,
have had their own form of religious authoritarianism
that then sets us up for political authoritarianism.
Not only that, but our current authoritarianism
isn't just military and political leaders. It's
also the world's most, the richest billionaires,
the oligarchs. And so you put them in the picture
and they control media, they control the algorithms,
and you just realize there is so much working
against us. We need communities that will help
us undo the brainwashing, let's say it that way.
And if we can't find it in our churches, and
sadly many of our churches have just, you know,
they haven't shown up for duty. And that's when
we find suddenly what Jesus said makes sense.
If two or three of you gather in my name, if
you gather to be part of my work of peace, if
you gather in the whole identity that I'm manifesting
in the world, this anti -authoritarian identity,
two or three of you get together, I'll be there
with you. You'll be able to get some vantage
points, some guidance, some comfort, some stability.
And so that's what I think we need. And in some
ways, that's what a podcast like this does. It
creates a space in the privacy. of someone's
car or earphones where they can hear a different
perspective. Well, you said where we go with
all this. So we're going to, I want to spend
our time talking about Jesus. But one last thought
about all of this is, you know, that I totally
agree with you that I think the Gospel of John,
which is written long after the synoptics, actually
kind of comes out and says it. Hey, the problem
is not the rest of the world. It's you followers
aren't doing what you're. I'm telling you to
do. It's the church. And John was trying to tell
that. So I never could understand what happened
in Germany and the Nazis. And I've been studying
it too. And then you read Bonhoeffer and what
he was up against with the Protestant churches.
Or my friend Gordon Zahn, who wrote an early
book called German Catholics and Hitler's Wars.
I remember, Brian, my mom, when I was young,
mailed me a picture she found once. All the Catholic
bishops and cardinals of Germany around 1937
in full regalia with Hitler in the center, all
wearing swastikas and all holding champagne glasses,
and all of them with Hitler smiling. And that
has stayed with me for my whole life because
that's it. All of that's playing out now in the
United States, certainly in the Catholic Church
as the bishops and priests are blindly following
this oligarchy. So there we have that. And, you
know, I guess I never really thought I'd live
to experience that like they did, poor Bonhoeffer
and others suffered in Germany. And we're going
through that, of course. And so. That's why I'm
talking about the nonviolent Jesus and looking
toward him, because I don't think there's any
other way to help us out of our insanity. So
I guess my question, and then do you agree with
all of that? And then tell me about the nonviolent
Jesus and how he responded to the authoritarianism
in his day. You already did it well, but go to
town on it. Yes, yes, yes. Well, yes, everything
you said just resonates deeply. And that image
of church leaders toasting or drinking wine and
having a merry time with Hitler, of course, we
have seen so many corollaries to that in recent
years. And they turn the stomach and they break
the heart and they just force us to say, you
know, things. Five years ago, 10 years ago, things
were not as good as we might have thought because
unsolved problems and unaddressed issues that
took a long time to develop brought us to this
place. So what we're experiencing now didn't
pop out of nowhere. This is the result of unaddressed
issues for a long time. So when I think about
what happens here and what does the nonviolent
Jesus, his life and teaching say to us at a time
like this? The first thing I'd say is we have
got to find places where we can actually talk
about the nonviolent Jesus. You might remember
the Episcopal Bishop Marianne Buddy when she
just called for mercy. A pretty Christlike thing
to do, right? And the people who most viciously
attacked her were conservative Christians, right?
They called her names and called her the devil
and all kinds of things. So we have to realize.
It's not even safe in many of our Christian communities.
And I think we're going to have to consciously
find the people who we can speak freely with
and who share a diagnosis of the trouble we're
in. And not only do we gather to help ourselves
keep sane and follow the nonviolent path, but
it helps us go into the world with a spirit of
nonviolence. You know, I live here in Florida
where support for Trump is super, super high.
But what I've noticed in the last couple of weeks,
really, since the new year, and especially since
the inauguration, I'm noticing people going out
of their way to be kind. And I know these are
the people who aren't happy with what's happening.
I was at the Episcopal Church that I attend Sunday,
and there's an African -American fellow who helps
us with our sound, all of our sound equipment.
And I noticed a number of white people came over
and went out of their way to say hi to him and
make a connection with him. And I thought to
myself, as they're watching this ugly white supremacy
be coddled under this regime, they know we're
in trouble and they're going out of their way
to try through small acts of kindness to make
a difference. And I think that's... Loving our
neighbors is not a small thing, according to
the nonviolent Jesus. Walking across the road
to help the guy who's been thrown in the ditch
is not a small thing. And so I think those become
ways that we begin. There's a lot more we could
say about resistance and so on in times like
this. And I think we all have to be preparing
ourselves for, I think we have to let some of
the worst case scenarios run through our minds.
as miserable and horrible as that is, so that
we can say, if that starts to happen, what are
we going to do? And yeah, and that's where having
some people to talk about this together really
makes a difference. Well, tell me just a couple
of, you said that beautifully at the beginning
there about Jesus, that little summation, a few
more concrete, any more things about Jesus, whether...
things he said, his teachings, or his examples
that we can use to respond nonviolently to this
rising authoritarianism? Yes. Well, we already
spoke about Bishop Marianne Buddy and what we
all may find. We all might not have a stage like
she had that day that was televised and so on.
We will find places where someone says something
shabby, someone says something racist, someone
says something harmful. And if we're prepared
at that moment, we can just speak up. I try to
give people a little script that I think can
help even the least experienced and least confident
of us have a starting place. And that is when
we hear someone say something harmful about...
our immigrant brothers and sisters or something
harmful about people of a minority race or religion
or heartless and callous about Gaza or something
like that, that we just say, hey, I need you
to know I see that differently. My little five
word script is, wow, I see that differently.
And almost any time I have a friend of mine calls
this the courage to differ graciously. And almost
any time I speak up and differ graciously, boldly
but graciously, wow, I see that differently.
Not, wow, you're really ignorant, which is just
going to create a battle of ego. Yeah, that's
been my style over the years. That's beautiful.
Wow, I see that differently. That's very helpful
and nonviolent teaching. What else, especially
from Jesus, do you see that we could try? And
this is where, when Jesus says, let your yes
be yes and your no be no, sometimes we just have
to be clear. It's as simple as raising our hand
or just saying, I need you to know I don't go
along with that. I need you to know I see that
differently. Almost always people will then follow
up, well, what do you mean? And here's something
I've learned in private social situations. If
there's a group of people witnessing a conversation
or a confrontation like this, the person we're
standing up to or standing up in opposition to
what they've said, they're now going to perform.
And it won't be a good opportunity for real communication.
It's an opportunity for this person to perform
and show how he's a good soldier of his cause.
So what I often will say is the important thing
is. I need you to know I see it differently.
If you're interested in knowing why, you or then
you turn to the other people around, or any of
you, just ask me in private, and I'd love to
tell you. Now, sometimes a public confrontation
is necessary, as with Bishop Buddy, but often
when people come to us in private, so many of
Jesus' conversations, you know, they happen in
private. Because if we really want to help people
change, sometimes we need them to take the first
step to come to us and to not be performing for
others. I suppose that's why Nicodemus came to
Jesus at night in the Gospel of John. He had
to get out of the performance mode so there could
be a real connection. That's brilliant. Okay.
I want to ask you about the public mode then.
And so I am talking with you now. And then the
following podcast will be with our friend. We're
going to continue this theme with our friend
Shane Claiborne. And then I'm going to do a podcast
on Luke 10 as a way to respond. And so I want
your thoughts about that. My take is that Jesus
is. Brian, I always joke in public, Jesus thinks
he's Gandhi. He thinks he's Martin Luther King.
I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. But
anyway, he's doing all this great stuff, and
he's doing the one -on -one. He really wrecks
it. It says in Luke 9, verse 51, he turned and
the verse is, he turned and set his face to Jerusalem.
Like, okay, I'm dealing with this. And then he
forms a movement according to Luke 10. He sends
72 ahead, lambs in the midst of wolves, to speak
out about the coming of the reign of God. It's
a movement. Just like Gandhi's salt march. He
gets to Jerusalem, he breaks down sobbing, and
he doesn't give up there. He then goes in and
does nonviolent direct action, civil disobedience
in the temple. You're going to be killed in 24
hours, and he is. How do we engage in public
nonviolent action and resistance to this rising
authoritarian? And I think it's going to mean...
everybody's got to get involved in the movement,
that old phrase, all hands on deck. But I want
to hear what you think about that. Yeah, I couldn't
agree with you more. The thing that's so challenging
right now is that we aren't sure the lay of the
land that we're going to face. And I think we're
dealing with a more complex situation than we
were when you and I got arrested back in the
1990s together. Because now we have this coalition
of the richest oligarchs in the world and the
most powerful government in the world with the
most lethal weapons in the world and the government
that is defying concern for the earth with a
brazenness and a stupidity that's just hard to
– you can't over – estimate what what the damage
that's going to be done to the earth under this
administration so you put all of that together
and i think we are all going to have to keep
our eyes open and listen for the people who are
organizing and you know anything you organize
i want to be part of because i trust you so much
and and those of us who are organizing together
And we're going to have to keep our ears open
for the right time to do the right thing. You
know, there are times when Jesus is in the middle
of a huge crowd and he disappears from the crowd.
I think he knows this is not the right time for
me to get killed quite yet. And it's not because
he's afraid. It's because he has a strategy.
But when the time comes, he goes to Jerusalem
and basically says, okay, this is it. It's time
for the life or death confrontation. So you mentioned
the church and the failures of the church, and
I put it down to very, very clearly year 315,
Constantine the Emperor, theoretically. converts
and makes christianity which is an illegal underground
evil movement as far as the empire is concerned
makes it legal says you can no longer have to
practice the sermon on the mountain non -violence
you can all be roman soldiers and the next thing
you know we got the just war theory and here
we are well a lot of good people are still are
there's people still staying with the church
like you and i and um you've been doing this
for years and in light of all this My question
would be, you know, what can people do to help
their local church and even the broader church
move more toward the nonviolent Jesus? And I
never heard anybody talk about that beautiful
teaching, two or three are gathered. So any other
thoughts for good people who are staying in the
church about what we can do now to help move
the church? Well, you know, let me give a couple
of very specific things. I was a pastor for 24
years. If you go to your priest or your pastor
in private and without making threats, with the
most compassionate heart you can, to go to your
priest or pastor and say, could you give me an
idea of where you stand in what's going on with
our government right now? You know, this resurgence
of white supremacy and this carelessness toward
the poor and this cavalier attitude toward the
earth and so on. Could you give me an idea of
where you stand? And say to them, I'm not going
to judge you. I just really want to know, right?
And then the priest or pastor might say, well,
where do you stand? And then you can share. What
that allows you to do is to say, and you might
even say, listen. If I were to try to organize
people in our church to be thinking about this
and facing these issues, for example, they might
say, I'd like to use Father John Deere's book
on the nonviolent Jesus and his reading of the
Gospels for a book study. Or we'd like to listen
to John Deere's podcast and have a discussion
on it every week or something like that. Would
that be okay with you? What would be ways like,
could I organize this through the church? Or
should I just do it privately with some friends?
In other words, you don't give the priest or
pastor permission to tell you what you can or
can't do privately, but you can see how much
room there is for you in the church. If I were
a pastor and someone came to me with that spirit,
it would do a couple of things. It would let
me know first, if I'm not happy about what's
going on, I have somebody here who could back
me up and maybe I'll have a little more courage.
And if they aren't going to be supportive, it
just lets you know you're going to have to—obviously,
you work through your network of relationships.
It just won't be able to be formally through
the real estate of the church, perhaps. So many
people have— walked away from their ministers
and priests. They remain in the church, but they
don't dialogue with them. And for my whole life,
I've seen, that's not it. That's not love. Anybody
can be angry, but to go and talk to them and
give them gifts, because they're all poor people
who are failing Jesus. We all know it. And I
think what you say is so helpful, and I'm glad
you're saying it. You know, Oscar Romero, I heard
this from the Jesuits who were killed in El Salvador.
They hated him. He was about as worse as you
can get. And everybody wrote him off except for
one Jesuit, Rutilio Grande. And when he was shot
and killed, Romero did a 180 and became maybe
the greatest bishop who ever lived in history.
And it's only because somebody reached out to
him, Rutilio. And I think that's a parable for
us here in the U .S. I don't mean to give a speech.
We've used up our time, so let me end with one
last question. Well, any last words of hope and
encouragement as we wrap this up for our listeners,
Brian? Well, John, one of the things that Jesus
said and did, especially near the end of his
public ministry, He didn't tell people everything's
going to be fine next week. He didn't even tell
them, look, Friday is going to be bad, but everything
will be fine on Sunday. He didn't give them false
hope. And this actually gives me a deeper hope
when I'm prepared to face the fact that things
might get worse, and then they might get worse,
and then they might get worse. When I realize
that, it then makes me say, I need to wake up.
to the full gravity of our situation. And I need
to decide how I want to show up in these times.
And to me, that's the deepest question that,
you know, here at my age, I'll be 70 soon. And
I just keep finding myself saying, how do I want
to show up? This is my one and only life. How
do I want to show up? And just asking the question
helps us be. decisive and proactive rather than
fearful and reactive. And of course, if we've
committed our hearts to the nonviolent Jesus,
then of course, we now have a direction where
we've set our face to go in as well. Wow, that's
so beautiful, Brian. Thank you so much, Brian
McLaren, for speaking with me today and encouraging
all of us to commit our hearts like more than
ever now. no matter how old we are, to the nonviolence
of Jesus and the will of God and just say, right,
we're getting on with living the gospel. So thanks,
friends, for listening to this podcast. And you
can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming
Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org.
And please consider offering a donation to support
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themes with our... activist and lecturer, our
great friend Shane Claiborne. May the God of
peace bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent
Jesus. See you all next time.