WEBVTT 00:00:14.410 --> 00:00:17.390 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.390 --> 00:00:19.530 John, Fr. John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:19.530 --> 00:00:23.010 with my friend Marie Dennis, author, activist, 00:00:23.129 --> 00:00:26.289 and longtime leader with Pax Christi and director 00:00:26.289 --> 00:00:29.469 of the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative. This 00:00:29.469 --> 00:00:34.090 podcast is a project of www .beatitudecenter 00:00:34.090 --> 00:00:37.520 .org. where you can find many other podcasts 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.640 and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.200 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:47.640 for a more just, more nonviolent world. So let's 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:50.380 begin with a little two -second prayer. So I 00:00:50.380 --> 00:00:52.619 invite everyone listening to just take a deep 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:56.799 breath, wherever you are, and just to relax and 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.340 recenter yourself. And let's enter once again 00:01:00.340 --> 00:01:03.259 into the presence of the God of peace who loves 00:01:03.259 --> 00:01:07.849 you infinitely. and loves everyone. And let's 00:01:07.849 --> 00:01:10.930 welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us and 00:01:10.930 --> 00:01:14.329 ask for the grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus 00:01:14.329 --> 00:01:22.349 more faithfully and do God's will. God of peace, 00:01:22.629 --> 00:01:26.170 thank you for all the blessings of life and love 00:01:26.170 --> 00:01:29.170 and peace that you give us. Be with us now as 00:01:29.170 --> 00:01:33.459 we reflect on the nonviolence of Jesus. And they 00:01:33.459 --> 00:01:35.859 need to put it back front and center in the church 00:01:35.859 --> 00:01:39.620 and how we can help do that. Bless us, inspire 00:01:39.620 --> 00:01:43.599 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:45.879 to do your will and proclaim your way of peace, 00:01:45.900 --> 00:01:49.099 love, and nonviolence. That we might help you 00:01:49.099 --> 00:01:53.260 end war and poverty. and violence, and racism, 00:01:53.420 --> 00:01:55.879 and corporate greed, and oligarchy, and nuclear 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:59.079 weapons, and environmental destruction. And be 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.780 your holy beatitude, people, of universal love, 00:02:02.859 --> 00:02:06.420 universal compassion, and universal peace. In 00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:10.020 Jesus' name, amen. So, dear friends, welcome 00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:12.539 again. It's my pleasure to welcome today my friend 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:15.780 Marie Dennis to reflect with us on her great 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:18.360 work. I'm calling this Moving the Church Back 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.800 to Gospel Nonviolence. Marie, as I said, is a 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.219 longtime activist, author, and longtime leader 00:02:24.219 --> 00:02:27.280 of Pax Christi International, the official Catholic 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:31.919 peace movement, and the Catholic Nonviolence 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:35.400 Initiative. And you can read more about her work 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:39.699 at PaxChristi .net. She served as co -president 00:02:39.699 --> 00:02:43.460 of Pax Christi International from 2007 to 2019 00:02:43.460 --> 00:02:46.620 and was given the Pax Christi USA Teacher of 00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:51.520 Peace Award in 2022. Marie worked for the Marinol 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:56.360 Missioners from 1989 to 2012, including 15 years 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.419 as director of the Marinol Office for Global 00:02:59.419 --> 00:03:03.159 Concerns. She's author or co -author of seven 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:07.020 books and editor of a book I really recommend, 00:03:07.259 --> 00:03:10.099 Choosing Peace, The Catholic Church Returns to 00:03:10.099 --> 00:03:13.580 Gospel Nonviolence, and co -editor of Advancing 00:03:13.580 --> 00:03:16.620 Nonviolence in the Church and the World. Marie 00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:20.860 was the primary. the main organizer, in my opinion, 00:03:21.020 --> 00:03:26.240 of three great historic conferences on nonviolence 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:29.900 and just peace that were co -sponsored by the 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:33.560 Vatican and Pax Christi. She served on the Vatican's 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.919 COVID -19 commission and was the National Catholic 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.919 Reporter's Person of the Year in 2016. She's 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.900 a laywoman, a secular Franciscan, a mother of 00:03:43.900 --> 00:03:47.800 six. a grandmother of nine, and a member of the 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:51.099 great Assisi community in Washington, D .C. So 00:03:51.099 --> 00:03:54.319 a big warm welcome, Marie. Good morning. Thank 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:56.919 you, John. Nice to be with you. Good. I thought 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.259 it might be best if you wouldn't mind starting 00:04:00.259 --> 00:04:03.430 by just giving us a general overview. of your 00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:07.210 work to promote gospel nonviolence at the Vatican 00:04:07.210 --> 00:04:10.210 with the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative and 00:04:10.210 --> 00:04:14.009 the Global Church and Pope Francis from that 00:04:14.009 --> 00:04:17.790 initial historic April 2016 conference up to 00:04:17.790 --> 00:04:22.189 now. All right, I'll see if I can keep it a little 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:29.670 short. So as John said, in 2016, We hosted a 00:04:29.670 --> 00:04:33.149 landmark conference with the Vatican, the Pontifical 00:04:33.149 --> 00:04:35.610 Council for Justice and Peace. The conference 00:04:35.610 --> 00:04:38.449 was in Rome and it was focused on nonviolence 00:04:38.449 --> 00:04:42.470 and just peace. About 80 people came to that 00:04:42.470 --> 00:04:45.129 conference from around the world. Many of them 00:04:45.129 --> 00:04:48.430 were grassroots activists, people who were living 00:04:48.430 --> 00:04:53.209 in zones of very serious, violent conflict. And 00:04:53.209 --> 00:04:55.920 we came together to ask. what is the role, what 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.939 can be the role of nonviolence in this broken 00:04:59.939 --> 00:05:02.639 world in which we live. At the end of the conference, 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:06.310 we issued an appeal to the Catholic Church. to 00:05:06.310 --> 00:05:09.709 recommit to the centrality of gospel nonviolence, 00:05:09.730 --> 00:05:13.009 particularly because what we heard from activists 00:05:13.009 --> 00:05:16.370 around the world living in war zones and situations 00:05:16.370 --> 00:05:19.410 of conflict was that nonviolence is the only 00:05:19.410 --> 00:05:24.470 way forward. So we began then a program of Pax 00:05:24.470 --> 00:05:26.829 Christi International called the Catholic Nonviolence 00:05:26.829 --> 00:05:31.329 Initiative. And since then, the goal of the Catholic 00:05:31.329 --> 00:05:35.519 Nonviolence Initiative is to... Move nonviolence 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.759 to the center of Catholic teaching on violence 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:42.139 and war. And we have been doing that in many 00:05:42.139 --> 00:05:46.189 different ways. We have found ways. quite often 00:05:46.189 --> 00:05:49.250 to cooperate with the Vatican, particularly with 00:05:49.250 --> 00:05:51.250 the Dicastery for Integral Human Development, 00:05:51.389 --> 00:05:54.689 but also with the Holy See Secretary to State 00:05:54.689 --> 00:05:57.149 and some other parts of the Vatican. And we've 00:05:57.149 --> 00:05:59.209 been reaching out to every sector of the Church, 00:05:59.310 --> 00:06:01.250 Catholic universities, religious communities, 00:06:01.810 --> 00:06:04.410 dioceses, parishes, some international Catholic 00:06:04.410 --> 00:06:08.470 organizations, to try to generate a new conversation 00:06:08.470 --> 00:06:13.379 about violence and nonviolence. Over these last 00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:16.759 almost 10 years, we had the three conferences 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:22.319 that John mentioned. We hosted five major roundtables 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:26.079 that were virtual roundtables even before we 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.720 learned how to use Zoom. They included overall 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.060 about 120 grassroots activists, theologians, 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:40.139 researchers, experts. who dug more deeply into 00:06:40.139 --> 00:06:47.899 five major themes. What would a theology of nonviolence 00:06:47.899 --> 00:06:52.040 look like now? What is the best scriptural exegesis 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:55.480 on nonviolence? If we moved the just war tradition 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.639 to the side, what could replace it in terms of 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.279 providing ethical and moral guidance in the world? 00:07:02.910 --> 00:07:05.449 How could the church contribute to this? And 00:07:05.449 --> 00:07:07.769 what are some really good, deep case studies 00:07:07.769 --> 00:07:09.750 of examples where nonviolence has been used? 00:07:10.410 --> 00:07:13.769 We finished those in 2018. They were the basis 00:07:13.769 --> 00:07:16.310 for the book that John mentioned on advancing 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:20.209 nonviolence. And since then, we've had regional 00:07:20.209 --> 00:07:24.910 roundtables where we, but the consistent effort 00:07:24.910 --> 00:07:27.889 has been to bring together grassroots activists. 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:32.079 researchers who are looking at the impact of 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:35.199 nonviolence and theologians and scripture scholars 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:38.779 who can help us remember that nonviolence is 00:07:38.779 --> 00:07:45.540 at the heart of the gospel. And so our effort 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:49.920 has been consistent over these years, and we've 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.360 been bringing it into different sectors of the 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:56.720 church with a really pretty remarkable positive 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.769 response. Wow, Marie, that's so exciting to hear 00:08:00.769 --> 00:08:04.569 you put it like that. So, you know, and from 00:08:04.569 --> 00:08:07.750 my perspective, Marie and her colleagues, our 00:08:07.750 --> 00:08:12.250 friends, have really changed a lot at the Vatican. 00:08:12.389 --> 00:08:14.569 You know, like after all these years, there's 00:08:14.569 --> 00:08:18.730 a real openness now to gospel nonviolence, not 00:08:18.730 --> 00:08:21.329 just with Pope Francis, but in many different 00:08:21.329 --> 00:08:24.490 corridors, and also in the church around the 00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:27.620 world. Not in the United States, but around the 00:08:27.620 --> 00:08:30.860 world. So would you agree with that, Marie? I'm 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:33.100 just asking that off the top of my head. And 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:37.620 also, if people want to hear exactly more about 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:42.019 this, again, it's under Catholic Nonviolence 00:08:42.019 --> 00:08:44.720 Initiative at poxchristi .net. Is that correct? 00:08:45.019 --> 00:08:46.919 I mean, tell people how they can get involved. 00:08:47.659 --> 00:08:51.620 I completely agree with you, John. I think we've 00:08:51.620 --> 00:08:56.740 been delighted at... how much of a positive response 00:08:56.740 --> 00:08:59.980 this effort has received, yes, at the Vatican, 00:09:00.059 --> 00:09:03.259 but also in different parts of the church worldwide. 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.980 I think that it reflects the reality of the world 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:11.000 that we live in now, where we are looking at 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.340 a world that is just... overwhelmed with violence, 00:09:14.419 --> 00:09:17.440 with war, but also with street violence and local 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.620 violence and the violence of deep injustice and 00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:23.919 on and on. And people are hungry for a change. 00:09:24.100 --> 00:09:27.600 So it has been really encouraging right after 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:32.299 our 2016 conference, the first World Day of Peace 00:09:32.299 --> 00:09:36.720 message. that Pope Francis wrote was in 2017, 00:09:37.019 --> 00:09:40.080 and it was on nonviolence, a style of politics 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.440 for peace. And it's actually a remarkable summary 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.519 of active nonviolence. We've had lots of interest 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:51.690 from Catholic universities. in different parts 00:09:51.690 --> 00:09:53.710 of the world, including in the United States, 00:09:53.889 --> 00:09:57.049 at many different conferences and panels. One 00:09:57.049 --> 00:09:59.929 of the most interesting for me was a panel at 00:09:59.929 --> 00:10:03.649 San Diego University where a small group representing 00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:06.309 the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative was invited 00:10:06.309 --> 00:10:09.190 to a dialogue, a conversation with ethicists 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:12.490 from the U .S. military academies, West Point 00:10:12.490 --> 00:10:14.990 and Annapolis and the Air Force Academy and so 00:10:14.990 --> 00:10:19.240 on. Others have been looking for ways to incorporate 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:25.120 into their university programs training hubs 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:29.460 so that students and faculty and staff and neighbors 00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:33.740 even could begin to learn how to apply nonviolence 00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:37.200 in very practical ways. It's been interesting 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:42.940 to see in sort of at the Vatican level that slowly, 00:10:43.220 --> 00:10:47.539 slowly over the years. we've begun to have deeper 00:10:47.539 --> 00:10:51.080 conversations. For example, within the Secretary 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:56.600 of State, where they're looking for ways to back 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:01.120 up, if you will, the very visionary and prophetic 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:05.100 statements that Pope Francis makes about war 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:08.679 and peace. He's been pleading for ceasefires 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.919 in Ukraine and in the Middle East and on and 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:17.570 on. And the Secretary of State, is open to hearing 00:11:17.570 --> 00:11:23.149 practical proposals for other directions in which 00:11:23.149 --> 00:11:25.590 we might go. So we've been pretty encouraged. 00:11:27.230 --> 00:11:29.690 There's been a much more lively conversation 00:11:29.690 --> 00:11:35.950 among moral theologians about violence and nonviolence, 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:38.809 about the just war tradition and pacifism and 00:11:38.809 --> 00:11:45.259 so on. We think that... If our goal was only 00:11:45.259 --> 00:11:50.220 to open up a conversation, that's certainly happening. 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:52.919 Now we want to see nonviolence really move to 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.500 the center of Catholic Church teaching. It's 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:59.500 so exciting, especially when, I'm going to put 00:11:59.500 --> 00:12:02.220 it this way, after all we were taught by Mahatma 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:05.460 Gandhi and Dorothy Day and Martin Luther King, 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.440 let's say, as three historic teachers of nonviolence. 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:14.120 What Marie is talking about, friends, is the 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:19.940 first time really the Catholic Church ever started 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:23.899 grappling with nonviolence, with the word even, 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:28.299 in 2016. Pope John XXIII never mentions it. Vatican 00:12:28.299 --> 00:12:31.539 II doesn't talk about it. So let me ask you then, 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.919 you know, about what's happening now in the next 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:38.779 phase. You know, Marie, we went to Rome in 2016. 00:12:40.029 --> 00:12:42.190 We were hoping for an encyclical, and we were 00:12:42.190 --> 00:12:46.090 asking Pope Francis for an encyclical on nonviolence. 00:12:46.350 --> 00:12:48.750 What we got almost immediately, as you said, 00:12:48.830 --> 00:12:53.590 was this brilliant and great January 1st, New 00:12:53.590 --> 00:12:56.350 Year's Day statement on nonviolence, which I 00:12:56.350 --> 00:12:59.690 hope everyone will go back and read January 1st, 00:12:59.690 --> 00:13:03.940 2017. Where are you going next and what do you 00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:06.860 think about ever getting a cyclical on? I want 00:13:06.860 --> 00:13:10.730 him to write one on Jesus and nonviolence. Well, 00:13:10.789 --> 00:13:13.549 we keep asking. We do? Do you? Have you been? 00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:17.509 Oh, sure, all the time. But we also, part of 00:13:17.509 --> 00:13:20.730 the journey has been to learn how the Vatican 00:13:20.730 --> 00:13:23.370 and the Church worldwide works. Well, God bless 00:13:23.370 --> 00:13:25.730 you, Marie Dennis. We're still working on that. 00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:33.789 But we have been encouraging ultimately Pope 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:37.110 Francis, but the Vatican people around Pope Francis. 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:42.299 to recognize what would be the huge contribution 00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:46.399 of an official teaching on nonviolence that was 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.740 more developed than the World Day of Peace message, 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.080 which is really good. But there's just so much 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.659 that can be written about nonviolence, gospel 00:13:55.659 --> 00:13:58.980 nonviolence, and it would set the stage for a 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:03.039 movement in the church to help support a movement 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:07.230 in the church in really important ways. Some 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:12.230 discussion about after the sort of as we got 00:14:12.230 --> 00:14:15.850 into this conversation, of course, Pope Francis 00:14:15.850 --> 00:14:20.149 wrote Fratelli Tutti. And some would say, well, 00:14:20.230 --> 00:14:24.070 that was an encyclical on nonviolence. And we 00:14:24.070 --> 00:14:27.899 think. Fratelli tutti is a wonderful encyclical, 00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:32.259 and it is about a vision of a world in which 00:14:32.259 --> 00:14:35.000 we would live in a completely different way, 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.399 which of course does speak about how we might 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:40.919 move toward nonviolence. In the Fratelli tutti, 00:14:41.220 --> 00:14:45.610 Pope Francis very specifically said, We can no 00:14:45.610 --> 00:14:48.049 longer think of war as a solution because its 00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:51.009 risks will probably always be greater than its 00:14:51.009 --> 00:14:53.809 supposed benefits. In view of this, it is very 00:14:53.809 --> 00:14:56.850 difficult nowadays to invoke the rational criteria 00:14:56.850 --> 00:15:01.190 elaborated in earlier centuries to speak of the 00:15:01.190 --> 00:15:04.470 possibility of just war. Never again war. He 00:15:04.470 --> 00:15:08.309 came very close to it. At least he was saying, 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:10.870 I think, we're going to move this just war tradition 00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:15.220 to a back shelf. And we need to move. nonviolence 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:20.860 into the center of the conversation. So we think 00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:25.080 that both at the level of official teaching, 00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:29.080 there has been movement, but even more so at 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:36.919 the level of conversation and stirring an imagination 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:40.399 that would enable us to think in ways Pope Francis 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.019 does it himself all the time. He does it in his 00:15:43.019 --> 00:15:48.299 actions. His trip to the Central African Republic 00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:52.419 in the middle of the war, serious conflict between 00:15:52.419 --> 00:15:55.879 Christians and the Muslims there, was visionary. 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.519 It was beautiful. It was effective. His trip 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.879 to Sudan and to the region that was struggling 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.820 with violence there, when they came to the Vatican, 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.600 the leaders of South Sudan were there to listen 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.460 to him. plead for peace. And at one point he 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.480 got down on his knees and kissed their feet. 00:16:16.659 --> 00:16:20.559 It was an incredibly powerful statement. And 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:25.320 I think he has the vision. And now the challenge 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:30.759 is, can we encourage the church to put in words 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:35.460 the depth of understanding of nonviolence that 00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:39.379 I think we are all beginning to appreciate nonviolence 00:16:39.379 --> 00:16:43.370 as a... spirituality and a way of life, nonviolence 00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:46.970 potentially as a global ethic, nonviolence as 00:16:46.970 --> 00:16:50.370 an effective set of tools for accomplishing a 00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:53.029 more just and peaceful world, and on and on. 00:16:53.070 --> 00:16:55.850 I think we're still hopeful that we'll get that 00:16:55.850 --> 00:16:59.870 reciprocal someday. You know, we've learned so 00:16:59.870 --> 00:17:04.529 much going to Rome about what Pope Francis has 00:17:04.529 --> 00:17:07.250 done that just really is ignored here. So many 00:17:07.250 --> 00:17:10.940 spectacular acts. especially that time he knelt 00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:13.539 down and kissed the feet of the rebel leaders 00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:16.759 and the president, waging war. I mean, it was 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.319 beyond St. Francis. And it's completely ignored. 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:24.640 And so two things specifically. Say a little 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.200 bit more about the just war theory. Now, for 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.319 example, in 2016, in the appeal statement, which 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.000 I hope folks will look up on Marie's website, 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:38.380 poxchristi .net. Which is sponsored by the Vatican. 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:41.420 So Pope Francis theoretically approved with the 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:44.180 section that says there is no such thing as a 00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:47.839 just war. And I hear you saying, and I think 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.319 it's true that the Vatican saying that's true. 00:17:50.420 --> 00:17:53.740 It's just that it's not law in the church. It's 00:17:53.740 --> 00:17:57.980 not in the catechism, the canon law or required 00:17:57.980 --> 00:18:00.299 teaching with the bishops around the world that 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:03.119 they can't justify war. And that's why I think 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.069 the encyclical would make the difference. Give 00:18:06.069 --> 00:18:08.250 me an update on all that or what you think of 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:11.730 that. Well, the conversation is alive and well. 00:18:12.890 --> 00:18:16.650 That's great. At the end of the conference in 00:18:16.650 --> 00:18:22.410 2016, the statement in our appeal to the church 00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:24.650 that you were referring to that said, there's 00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:26.390 no such thing as a just war, the church should 00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:28.869 stop teaching the just war tradition, the church 00:18:28.869 --> 00:18:33.319 just war theory. We realized that that... But 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.480 focusing on the just war tradition got a lot 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.579 of pushback from moral theologians, from people 00:18:40.579 --> 00:18:42.480 who were committed to peace, but just said, you 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.019 can't do that. We can't do without it. It's a 00:18:45.019 --> 00:18:50.440 useful theory. And we decided for a while to 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:55.240 not focus on the just war theory, to not focus 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.779 on the sort of debate between absolute pacifism 00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:03.349 and the just war tradition. Mostly because it 00:19:03.349 --> 00:19:05.390 just felt like it was not going to be a fruitful 00:19:05.390 --> 00:19:09.269 discussion. And so the way we approached the 00:19:09.269 --> 00:19:13.069 conversation was to say there is another way. 00:19:13.130 --> 00:19:16.690 And it is called nonviolence. And it is being 00:19:16.690 --> 00:19:21.509 proven effective in many circumstances. I think 00:19:21.509 --> 00:19:25.509 people largely know the research done by Maria 00:19:25.509 --> 00:19:29.160 Stephan and Erica Chenoweth and others. now what, 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:33.220 13, 14 years ago, that demonstrated that nonviolent, 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:38.079 that learning to use nonviolence in effective 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:42.400 ways was more effective than using nonviolent, 00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:47.460 violent means, using war as a way to even accomplish 00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:52.960 a just change. And so we decided that what we 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:54.539 were going to do, and that's what we've been 00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:58.890 doing for the last 10 years, is to say, War is 00:19:58.890 --> 00:20:03.750 not only, not only can it not be just, but it's 00:20:03.750 --> 00:20:07.569 not usually effective. And the consequences of 00:20:07.569 --> 00:20:11.430 it are so overwhelmingly horrific. We have to 00:20:11.430 --> 00:20:16.069 focus on learning to use nonviolent strategies 00:20:16.069 --> 00:20:19.490 for dealing with threats and injustice. And so 00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:22.750 that conversation is still very alive. And we 00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:25.730 were very happy to see, we've been very happy 00:20:25.730 --> 00:20:30.279 to see Pope Francis. not only move the just war 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.859 tradition toward a back shelf, but also promote 00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:38.200 nonviolence. One of the things that he said that 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.359 I just loved, it was just a little sentence in 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:44.359 Fratelli Tutti that he said, let us arm our children 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:50.160 with the weapons of dialogue. Let us teach them 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.359 to fight the good fight with a culture of encounter. 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.210 And I think... When he says something like that, 00:20:57.289 --> 00:21:00.029 what he's saying is there is another whole way 00:21:00.029 --> 00:21:06.509 that we need to struggle for a more just and 00:21:06.509 --> 00:21:10.569 peaceful world, that we need to interrupt violence 00:21:10.569 --> 00:21:14.210 and prevent violence, and we can do it by nonviolence. 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:23.650 You've seen Pope Francis just... grow and blossom 00:21:23.650 --> 00:21:27.430 in his teachings. I wonder if you could say a 00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:31.490 word about any thoughts or reflections you have 00:21:31.490 --> 00:21:35.089 on him per se. So he's been churning out books. 00:21:35.410 --> 00:21:38.509 And for those who haven't heard Zooms on the 00:21:38.509 --> 00:21:42.269 Beatitudes Center, I had Marie on last year just 00:21:42.269 --> 00:21:46.009 to talk about one of the Pope's many new books, 00:21:46.089 --> 00:21:49.529 a little book called Against War. And it's all 00:21:49.529 --> 00:21:51.509 his statements against war, and it's kind of 00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:53.950 shocking when you put it all together. We've 00:21:53.950 --> 00:21:57.869 never had a pope like that in history. What do 00:21:57.869 --> 00:22:02.569 you think, Marie? Would you agree? I do. I do 00:22:02.569 --> 00:22:06.349 agree. And he is not only speaking out consistently 00:22:06.349 --> 00:22:10.329 about war theoretically, he's also speaking out 00:22:10.329 --> 00:22:14.930 about war in response to the wars that we see 00:22:14.930 --> 00:22:19.480 raging in so many. places around the world um 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:25.019 when he can he he physically moves himself to 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:28.200 a place where he can be heard more clearly um 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:32.640 and he offers a vision of another way and i think 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.980 he has done that consistently so um that that 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:39.900 against his little book against war um to me 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:45.500 is just this beautiful companion to his little 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:51.720 book, Let Us Dream, that lays out another way 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.859 of being. What we're talking about and what I 00:22:53.859 --> 00:22:58.319 think Pope Francis is leading us to is a paradigm 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:03.460 shift in the way we are moving through life, 00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:06.579 through the world. And I think that's the reason 00:23:06.579 --> 00:23:10.980 why we believe that the Catholic nonviolence 00:23:11.369 --> 00:23:14.869 initiative exists to try to move nonviolence 00:23:14.869 --> 00:23:17.670 to the center of Catholic church teaching because 00:23:17.670 --> 00:23:20.769 we believe that the church could make such a 00:23:20.769 --> 00:23:23.230 huge contribution to the world. We're, what, 00:23:23.349 --> 00:23:26.670 1 .3 billion people, more or less. The church 00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:31.490 has universities, schools, parishes, diplomats 00:23:31.490 --> 00:23:34.710 in almost every country, and on and on, that 00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:39.549 could carry a message that nonviolence is from 00:23:39.549 --> 00:23:44.119 the heart of the gospel. Nonviolence works and 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:47.279 we can learn how to be nonviolent people. Let 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.220 me ask you about nonviolence then. Thank you. 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:53.720 So I want you to continue on that line, if you 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:55.960 wouldn't mind, because you've been talking about 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.180 nonviolence for a long time, but I've seen your 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:01.559 thinking evolve. How do you understand nonviolence 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:06.250 today? And especially as, you know. It's not 00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:10.769 passivity, but as a power to confront and disarm. 00:24:11.109 --> 00:24:13.230 I mean, you're saying that the church could be 00:24:13.230 --> 00:24:19.109 such a force of nonviolence. And why this word? 00:24:19.309 --> 00:24:21.230 You know, I want the Pope to be using it all 00:24:21.230 --> 00:24:24.009 the time because words like encounter and dialogue 00:24:24.009 --> 00:24:28.250 are beautiful, but it's got to be a nonviolent 00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:32.230 dialogue and a nonviolent encounter. Yeah. I 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:35.509 agree with you, John. I think using the language 00:24:35.509 --> 00:24:39.190 of nonviolence is really important because it 00:24:39.190 --> 00:24:44.369 challenges us to a new way of thinking in a way 00:24:44.369 --> 00:24:47.789 that other words that carry a lot of meaning 00:24:47.789 --> 00:24:53.809 but are softer or are less challenging don't 00:24:53.809 --> 00:24:57.109 do. So I agree. I think nonviolence needs to 00:24:57.109 --> 00:25:02.599 be a word that we use a lot. I think of nonviolence 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:08.200 as, as I said, a spirituality. It's a way of 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:15.819 being. It's who we become. It's a set of tools 00:25:15.819 --> 00:25:18.980 that we can use, a very broad spectrum of tools 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:22.859 that we can use to prevent violence, interrupt 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:27.680 violence, to build a more just and peaceful world, 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:31.609 and everything from... Nonviolent communication 00:25:31.609 --> 00:25:33.930 that helps us communicate with each other. We 00:25:33.930 --> 00:25:35.970 certainly need that in our country right now 00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:43.210 to specific tools like bystander intervention 00:25:43.210 --> 00:25:46.509 and de -escalation and tools that help us know 00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:50.609 how to move into a context, a situation that 00:25:50.609 --> 00:25:54.509 is becoming approaching violence and interrupt 00:25:54.509 --> 00:25:59.019 it, help it to de -escalate. a set of tools that 00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:03.720 give us new ways of thinking about defense. One 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:06.720 of the big questions that came out of the synod 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.920 process, and I just have to, as a footnote, say 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:13.799 that the synodal process that Pope Francis has 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:18.079 led the church into is itself a nonviolent process 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.579 that is built around nonviolent communication. 00:26:26.629 --> 00:26:30.529 challenge that came out of the first synod conference 00:26:30.529 --> 00:26:34.349 two years a year and a half ago was to say well 00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:37.150 what do you do about legitimate defense how do 00:26:37.150 --> 00:26:40.190 you think about legitimate defense without violence 00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:43.529 but the reality is that there are many ways to 00:26:43.529 --> 00:26:47.309 imagine a non -violent strategy for defense and 00:26:47.309 --> 00:26:50.849 and hopefully we will invest enough in that in 00:26:50.849 --> 00:26:55.069 learning how to use it that um we won't end up 00:26:55.319 --> 00:27:02.099 resorting to weapons every time there's a crisis. 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.680 And I think that Pope Francis has just done a 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.180 really, really good job of repeatedly lifting 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:17.119 up those possibilities. And it's enhanced my 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:19.599 understanding of nonviolence as well, that it's 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.839 not only a tool, it's not, you know, it's what 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.869 one hand of I will interrupt the violence and 00:27:27.869 --> 00:27:30.609 I will, with my other hand, reach out to the 00:27:30.609 --> 00:27:33.369 perpetrator of the violence to see how we can 00:27:33.369 --> 00:27:38.210 sustain a relationship. We know that it is both 00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:42.029 negative, it interrupts violence, and it promotes 00:27:42.029 --> 00:27:46.509 a new way of being, a more just society, a more 00:27:46.509 --> 00:27:50.450 peaceful society. So not violence, what I think 00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:53.029 I've been discovering and what I think is important 00:27:53.029 --> 00:27:56.599 for us to sort of... wrap our arms around more 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:00.059 and more, is that nonviolence is a tremendous 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:05.200 concept. It's rich and deep, and that I think 00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:10.019 for each of us, it's worth the trouble to learn 00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:13.480 about nonviolence, to take a course in nonviolence, 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:18.339 sign up for one of the many different webinars 00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:22.480 that are being offered now by... Pax Christi, 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:25.480 for sure, but also by Pace Beni, by the Beatitude 00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:30.059 Center, by the Meta Center on Nonviolence, and 00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:33.660 on and on and on. Different centers that are 00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:38.339 of thought where people are looking at what seem 00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:43.619 like intractable violence. and proposing ways 00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:46.420 to approach them in different ways. A great place 00:28:46.420 --> 00:28:49.619 to look at it is in the Middle East, in the Holy 00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:54.579 Land, where people, Palestinians, have been practicing 00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:59.079 nonviolence for 70 years. We need to learn from 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:03.660 them. One last question about Jesus. Marie, as 00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:06.480 you were talking, I just wanted to say, too, 00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:10.119 this... Which I always mention, and so it's almost 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:12.900 stupid, but to say nonviolence has this bottom 00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:16.400 line that we got to get rid of our guns and quit 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.200 the military and stop being violent to the people 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.079 around us. And you can't be actually involved 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.500 in the culture of war. Marie, I was hearing confessions 00:29:26.500 --> 00:29:30.720 this weekend at a Latino youth Catholic retreat, 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:34.660 hundreds of kids, and it was beautiful, run by 00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:41.160 youth. the stories, Marie. I have guns. I'm robbing 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:45.440 people. I rely on my guns. I think that might 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:49.680 be wrong. And I was grieving. And I think that, 00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.680 you know, I was encouraging nonviolence, but 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:55.220 that's why I keep talking about the nonviolent 00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:57.920 Jesus and call this the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast, 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:02.779 that in the end, you and I can talk and try to 00:30:02.779 --> 00:30:06.900 teach this, but fundamentally, If we're followers 00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:09.640 of Jesus and if Gandhi's right that he's the 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:14.440 epitome of nonviolence, then he's our model for 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.619 nonviolent living and how to create a more nonviolent 00:30:18.619 --> 00:30:21.680 world. So we've been friends almost 40 years, 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.339 Marie, and I've seen you develop. Here's my question. 00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:29.940 I wrote it down. This would be the last question. 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:33.859 Any key aspects, moments, teachings, scenes from 00:30:33.859 --> 00:30:38.549 the life of Jesus? that deepen and inspire nonviolence 00:30:38.549 --> 00:30:42.490 from you, from his nonviolent life. And from 00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:46.109 that, any suggestions or advice or hopes you 00:30:46.109 --> 00:30:50.170 have for people listening? Oh, absolutely. I 00:30:50.170 --> 00:30:57.650 think that I actually was captured by Terrence 00:30:57.650 --> 00:31:03.400 Wren's book on Jesus Peacemaker. where he, Terry, 00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:09.900 goes into a great description of the level of 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:15.059 violence that was present in Palestine during 00:31:15.059 --> 00:31:17.660 the years when Jesus was, right before he was 00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:21.539 alive and during his life. And I think that understanding 00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:23.779 that really made for some reason made a very 00:31:23.779 --> 00:31:26.539 big difference to me that that sort of sense 00:31:26.539 --> 00:31:29.960 that he was living in a very violent time and 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:34.569 as terry says the the sort of The assumption 00:31:34.569 --> 00:31:38.049 was that the options in response to the violence 00:31:38.049 --> 00:31:41.910 were either fight or flight or accommodate. And 00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:45.670 Jesus said, no, there's a completely a different 00:31:45.670 --> 00:31:48.650 direction in which we need to go. And it's to 00:31:48.650 --> 00:31:51.470 build an inclusive community that is nonviolent. 00:31:51.509 --> 00:31:55.349 And I think that that his way of living that 00:31:55.349 --> 00:31:59.690 out, of teaching it, of sort of constantly Jesus 00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:05.859 way of constantly. inviting us to be more imaginative 00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:10.960 in the way we deal with crises. And then the 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:15.960 way he practiced it himself. I mean, as Terry 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:19.259 says, he didn't have any enemies, not Roman officials. 00:32:19.339 --> 00:32:22.099 He healed the Roman officer's servant, not the 00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:28.200 Samaritans. He celebrated that. traditional enemy 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:31.400 of the Jews as an embodiment of charity in the 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:34.220 parable of the Good Samaritan, not the Pharisees 00:32:34.220 --> 00:32:36.599 who went out of their way to trap and humiliate 00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:42.559 him, as Terry says. And he lived that way consistently 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:48.079 all the way to the cross. So for me, Jesus on 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:52.839 the cross is the ultimate witness to nonviolence 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:59.809 that speaks. It says everything to me. So I think 00:32:59.809 --> 00:33:03.710 that we who claim to follow Jesus need to figure 00:33:03.710 --> 00:33:06.730 out what that means in our times. What does it 00:33:06.730 --> 00:33:11.829 look like in this 21st century? And how do we 00:33:11.829 --> 00:33:13.769 learn to do it? And I think that's maybe one 00:33:13.769 --> 00:33:17.250 other thought that I want to share. And that 00:33:17.250 --> 00:33:21.410 is that I believe that nonviolence takes practice. 00:33:21.849 --> 00:33:27.279 That it takes it. that we need to study nonviolence. 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.700 We need to try to understand what it means at 00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:32.420 a very personal and interpersonal level. But 00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:36.420 we also need to practice that third way. How 00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:40.799 do we move in a world where violence is so overwhelming? 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:44.099 And part of it is changing what's happening in 00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:46.779 front of our eyes. And part of it is looking 00:33:46.779 --> 00:33:50.180 at the root causes. Where is this violence coming 00:33:50.180 --> 00:33:52.980 from? And that's part of the... challenge of 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:57.180 being nonviolent. Wow, that's so beautiful and 00:33:57.180 --> 00:34:00.579 encouraging. Thank you. Thank you so much, Marie 00:34:00.579 --> 00:34:03.000 Dennis, for speaking with me today and sharing 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.000 all this wisdom and encouragement. And thank 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:07.839 you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:11.099 Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts and 00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:16.480 find other upcoming Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:24.829 .org. And if you can, please leave some positive 00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:28.809 feedback or review at NCR or Apple or Spotify 00:34:28.809 --> 00:34:32.840 or wherever platform you're using. Join me next 00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.679 week for my conversation with theologian and 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.780 scripture scholar Brian McLaren on the topic 00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:41.880 Following the Nonviolent Jesus in a Time of Rising 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:45.199 Authoritarianism. May the God of peace bless 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.059 everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. 00:34:48.219 --> 00:34:49.320 See you next time.