1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:22,720 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 2 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:28,240 with my friend, author, teacher, and founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation, 3 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:35,760 Richard Rohr. This podcast is a project of BeatitudesCenter.org, where you can find many 4 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:42,160 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 5 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:48,480 and working for a more just, more nonviolent world. So, I like to begin with a little prayer. So, 6 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:55,840 for all those listening, I invite us just to take a deep breath and to relax, and together, 7 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:02,080 let's enter into the presence of the God of peace who loves you personally and infinitely. 8 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:10,240 Let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us and ask for whatever graces we need to follow 9 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:18,960 the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully and to do God's will. God of peace, thank you for all the 10 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:25,040 blessings of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with us as we reflect together on the life 11 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:32,960 and teachings of the nonviolent Jesus that we might follow Him more faithfully and join His 12 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:41,600 prophetic campaign to do our part to help end war, poverty, violence, racism, nuclear weapons, 13 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,840 environmental destruction, to welcome your reign of universal love, universal compassion, 14 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,360 and universal peace in Jesus' name. Amen. 15 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,360 Amen. 16 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,920 Father Richard Rohr is a beloved Franciscan priest, bestselling author, 17 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,240 speaker, and founder of the New Jerusalem community in Cincinnati back in 1971, 18 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:10,880 and in 1987, he founded the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico. 19 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:17,440 His books include The Universal Christ, Everything Belongs, Falling Upward, 20 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:26,560 Radical Grace, Immortal Diamond, Eager to Love, The Divine Dance, Jesus' Plan for a New World on 21 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:32,240 the Sermon on the Mount, and my favorite, Breathing Underwater. Father Richard's daily email 22 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,440 messages go out to a half a million people, and his fans include, sorry, I'm name-dropping here, 23 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:43,600 Richard, Oprah, Bono, and Pope Francis. So, Richard, thank you so much for all the great 24 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,160 work you do and for joining me today on this new podcast. You're very welcome. 25 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,880 I'm honored, and it's easy to talk with you. Thank you. 26 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,520 Thank you, Richard. Well, you've just published a brand new book, and that's what I want to talk 27 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:04,560 with you today about on the prophets called The Tears of Things, Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of 28 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:10,400 Outrage, which is such a powerful title. And on the material, I haven't seen it or read it, 29 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:16,560 but on the materials I saw online, it said, your questions were, how do we live compassionately in 30 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,960 a time of violence and despair? What can we do with our private disappointments and the anger we feel 31 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,560 in such an unjust world? There's so much to talk about. Tell me about the book, Richard. 32 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:38,880 Well, it was a lifetime in coming. Here at the center, I would teach a major 33 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:48,480 piece to our interns and our students on the prophets, and doing it year after year, 34 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:59,040 it just became so apparent how absolutely central they are for a Christian to understand Jesus. 35 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:13,120 They set the tangents that he brings to fullness. And I think they're central to the integrity, 36 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:20,240 let's use that word, of any religion. Any religion, I'm going to make an absolute statement, 37 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:29,760 forgive me, but that doesn't have prophetic teachers, and I know you'll make me define that, 38 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:41,360 but becomes idolatrous. It worships itself and its formulations and rituals instead of God. 39 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:50,080 And this was given us by the Jewish religion and incorporated in the Jewish scriptures 40 00:04:51,600 --> 00:05:03,840 against all odds. You know, most institutions don't incorporate self-critical thinking in their 41 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:16,000 official and foundational texts, but the Old Testament, as we call it, did. Really, it has no 42 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:25,840 parallel. We had Jesus, but then we didn't interpret him as a prophet, because we didn't 43 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:34,640 know what prophets did. We thought they foretold the future, which is a very, very limited 44 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,400 understanding of their role. 45 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:43,440 Well, let's talk about defining that since you mentioned it. Maybe I could share 46 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:50,160 my interpretation, but the question would be then, well, what is a prophet and what is a 47 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:55,280 prophetic teacher? And as I've thought about it over the years, especially from Isaiah 2, 48 00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:02,240 which I'm going to ask you about later, a prophet does not predict the future. A prophet is a 49 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:10,160 contemplative who sits there and is quiet and listens to God, and God has something to say. 50 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,800 And then you go into the world and you say what God says. How do you define a prophet? 51 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:26,400 That's excellent, what you just said. And what God says always includes an element of revelation of the shadow. 52 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:36,320 Let me call it that. In a time where the movie Wicked has become popular, we recognize that 53 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:45,920 we've never been good. And nation states have never been good, institutions in general, and sadly 54 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:56,400 enough, religions have not been good at revealing the shadow side of things, especially their own shadow. 55 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:12,320 In the promotional material about your book, it says you talk about the journey to human maturity. 56 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,800 That's so beautiful. I'm going to sum it up and then I'll read what it says and ask you to reflect 57 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,640 on it because it's like your theme and so beautiful. Like the journey that the prophets show us 58 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:28,880 is from rage and accusation to pathos and lamentation to the critique of culture and institutions 59 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:37,760 to compassion, which then leads to sacred criticism. So it says your book is about the full 60 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:45,760 spectrum of human maturity. Wow. And in almost every case, the prophets, their initial rage and 61 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:53,360 their accusatory words evolve into profound pathos and lamentation about our shared human condition 62 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:58,960 and the world's suffering. And through critiques of culture and institutions, their journey from 63 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:06,960 anger and sadness moves into compassion and what you call sacred criticism. Tell me about that. 64 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:14,560 You know how to center in on the important stuff. You know, one thing that convinced me to write 65 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:22,880 this book was back in the early nineties, I did all these studies on male initiation rights 66 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:32,400 and gave them for many years, 10, 12 years up here at Ghost Ranch. And there was one line 67 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:41,840 that I made sure to repeat because of the impact it seemed to have on what we call the day of grief. 68 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,200 And on the day of grief, I said, many men think they are angry, 69 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:57,040 especially many older men are, if we'd be honest. And those were the fathers of many of the men in 70 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:06,480 the room I eventually discovered. But I said, let me tell you a secret. And I'd say it as clearly 71 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:18,000 as I could, I'm convinced that most men, even those who think they are angry are really sad. 72 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:29,440 And the room would come to a hushed recognition that was so consistent over those many years. 73 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:38,320 It was almost like the turning point in the initiation right. Maybe I'm not as angry as I 74 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:46,960 think I am. But the trouble is we dualistically then thought all anger was inherently wrong. 75 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:56,880 And that wasn't what I was trying to say. I think like the prophets, it's pretty appropriate 76 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:07,600 to begin with anger. If you aren't angry today at Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, the state of 77 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:21,280 mental health and family relationships, you're not looking. But the trouble is it can't stay there. 78 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:29,280 It's like I always probably say obsessively, it's both and you have to begin with anger 79 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:42,720 that has to morph into a deeper realization, which is pathos or pity or sadness or what Jeremiah calls 80 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:54,960 lamentation. You just can't wake up every day being angry. Like after the last election, 81 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:03,360 there might be plenty you want to be angry at, but it's going to destroy you instead of enlighten you. 82 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:13,040 It needs to morph and develop. And you know, any novel that you or I like or movie that you 83 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:24,000 or I like, what it always is characterized by is character development, where you see a person grow 84 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:33,920 and change. And I don't think we allowed the biblical characters to have that. We just take 85 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:42,640 any quote from the prophet is a mature quote. Actually, a lot of the early chapters in most 86 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:53,520 prophets, I'm going to say it are very immature. They're just raging and yelling. And most people 87 00:11:53,520 --> 00:12:00,640 close the book at that point, especially if their father or mother was a rage, a holic. 88 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,720 They just can't hear angry language anymore. 89 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:16,800 And that's actually an invitation to let your own anger morph into what it's really feeling. 90 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:27,360 And what it's really feeling, I'm convinced is deep sadness, which explains, of course, 91 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:36,640 the title of the book from Virgil's Aeneid, The Tears of Things. 92 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:38,400 Tell me about that title, I wanted to ask you, because you know, I don't know anybody who talks 93 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:46,160 about tears these days. And it's precisely what we need, the gift of tears and gift of grief as a 94 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,160 new spiritual practice. 95 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:57,760 Oh, I'm so glad you can understand that. 96 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,160 Yeah, I mean, to me, having teaching the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount, 97 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:10,560 I hear Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount saying, as you've heard me say, avoid anger, fear, worry, 98 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:15,680 anxiety. They don't work in the long run. But it's right there in the Beatitudes, 99 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:22,560 blessed are those who mourn in grief. And then you're going to be persecuted, rejoice and be glad. 100 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:28,240 You know, so there's grief and joy. But The Tears of Things, tell me. 101 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,200 It's from the first chapter of perhaps the 102 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:40,640 greatest piece of Latin literature. I was the last generation that had to, in my community, 103 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:50,720 that had to study all this stuff. And the phrase in Latin was lacrimae rarum, the tears of things. 104 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,960 I mentioned toward the beginning of the book that we had an old professor, 105 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Latin professor, who was a bit of a showman. And he'd come walking in to the classroom, 106 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,840 moaning, lacrimae rarum. 107 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,640 Well, no wonder you remember it. Wow! 108 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,320 That's pretty effective teaching, actually. 109 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,360 Well, it was. It was. That all things have tears, 110 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:30,560 and all things deserve tears. There's no preposition in the phrase, in the Aeneid. 111 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:40,800 It's simply the two words, which allow both to be true, that things have inherent sadness to them, 112 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:48,560 almost as if they know they're going to die, or they know their partiality. 113 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:56,560 And yet all things deserve tears, not hatred, not attack, 114 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:07,200 not anxiety, but just an immense sadness. And I think that is so true today. I really do. 115 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,520 One of the things we don't talk about 116 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:17,440 with the nonviolent Jesus as the greatest prophet, let's say, is he leads this kind of campaign of 117 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:24,880 nonviolence to Jerusalem. He sees Jerusalem, and he breaks down sobbing. I think that's 118 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:32,800 17. And why? Because you did not understand the things that make for peace. And so, 119 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,800 number one, I thought that was a teaching. 120 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,320 It's an important line, John. 121 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:45,040 Yes. That's our way is to weep. But then, you know, I or others might say, 122 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:51,520 well, that's it, I give up. He then takes action and goes in and does something. I think the grief 123 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:58,160 leads to direct nonviolent action. But tell me about your image there of the tears of things 124 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,240 with Jesus approaching Jerusalem. 125 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:08,320 Yeah, there's only two direct statements that Jesus wept. You spotted one of them, 126 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:18,720 where he weeps over the collective, which is a whole chapter in the book. The prophets attack 127 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:27,120 the prophets attack culture, the collective, they don't waste a lot of time, they really don't 128 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:37,760 on individuals. John the Baptist is quite the exception in critiquing one man's marriage 129 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:49,440 situation. That isn't typical of the prophets at all. The other time that it happens is when he 130 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:59,760 weeps over the death of his friend Lazarus, which just reveals humanity at its best, 131 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:11,120 and shows how human he was. So we have the collective weeping over the tragic sense of life. 132 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:22,240 Life is inherently tragic. The prophets are always lamenting the collective stupidity. 133 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:33,600 Amos, I think I counted, it's been some months since I wrote that chapter now, but I think I 134 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:47,680 counted 36 mentions of cities, or regions, or towns. You Moab, you in Jesus Bethsaida, 135 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:55,680 you Corazon, you Jerusalem. Once you hear this, you're going to see its consume. 136 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:04,640 They don't waste their time revealing that Joe Blow is imperfect, that Joe Blow is a sinner. 137 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,080 So how would you translate that today? So you're saying it would be, 138 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,440 you Washington DC people, you Los Angeles people, you New Yorkers. 139 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:28,720 The culture makes evil look good. Let me pick on my neighboring state here, forgive me Texans, 140 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:40,160 but the Texas gun culture that is so bred and admired and developed and protected 141 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:48,640 is what really needs to be exposed as evil. Not John Doe, who happens to fire a gun. 142 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:58,080 The reason he has to have his gun and so easily fires his gun is because he lives in a culture 143 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:04,400 that says evil is good. Does that make sense? 144 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:17,200 That's very powerful. So give me some examples of the prophets in the book, the prophets, 145 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:23,360 the great ones, Jeremiah, Daniel, I don't know who you want, one or two or three that 146 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:29,840 stick with you, that you write about that could help us in our predicament today to continue 147 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:35,040 the work of sacred critique. Well, let me go back to Amos. 148 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:46,800 Here he is a dresser of sycamore trees, an uneducated Jewish man, but has this marvelous 149 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:57,520 ability to critique culture. As I mentioned 36 times, he names towns as the problem. 150 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:07,520 The way you think up there in Bashan, it's amazing that we didn't see it, but you know 151 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:19,280 it wasn't until the 1960s that we began to develop what John Paul too called structural 152 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:31,440 sin or institutional evil. Evil was because of Western individualism, we made our whole 153 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:43,120 focus the conversion of individual sinners while leaving the superficiality of the Renaissance 154 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:52,960 completely in charge, let's say. Just pick out an example. It's only Savonarola who could 155 00:20:52,960 --> 00:21:02,240 have the bonfire of the vanities. God, if we tried to do that in Hollywood today, we 156 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:11,120 would be burned at the stake too. But that's where the exposure lies. The sin must be exposed, 157 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:24,000 I should say. The collective nature of evil that lies in group adulation, admiration, validation, 158 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,880 and lets the individual off scot-free. 159 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:37,360 That's powerful. You know, some people consider the greatest book on the prophets, 160 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:45,360 the famous book, The Prophets by Rabbi Abraham Heschel. He says there, I haven't looked at it 161 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:54,880 in a long time, but it's a masterpiece. He says, the prophets pretty much all agree that 162 00:21:55,360 --> 00:22:02,320 indifference in the face of evil is worse than the evil itself. Now, that's his word. What do you think? 163 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:12,640 Wow. That's what I'm trying to say. That we're all numb, I think he uses that word. We're all 164 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:18,320 numb to the ubiquity of stupidity and illusion. 165 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,440 Yeah. And then he goes on in that quote, which I've always remembered, that, 166 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:30,880 some of us are guilty, but all of us are responsible. Isn't that great? 167 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:31,840 Great line. 168 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:37,360 What does that mean for you, for us now? I know that's a basic question, but I want to hear you unpack it. 169 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:47,920 Well, you know, I think Jesus came to represent solidarity with human 170 00:22:47,920 --> 00:23:02,480 suffering and even solidarity with human stupidity. Not the illusion that we 171 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:12,880 privately could overcome it. That created a religion of purity codes and an obsession with 172 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:24,400 being pure and not evil, denial of the shadow. And soon we became so practiced at denying the shadow 173 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:32,960 that we literally can't see it. It's good. It's admirable. 174 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:45,920 You know, that's where Bonhoeffer was going toward the end of his life. In the end, he's right. 175 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:52,400 There's nothing worse than organized, institutionalized, nationalized stupidity. 176 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:54,640 Exactly. 177 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,200 That's what he said. He wrote a treatise on stupidity when he was referring to the Nazis. 178 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:09,520 I'm sorry. Forgive me for being seemingly partisan, but I don't have time to be upset at the 179 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:21,040 new president we have elected, but I have time to lament the stupidity of 40%, whatever it is, 180 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:35,440 of America that has no spiritual insight, that could elect such limitedness. Let's just call it 181 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:47,120 that. And you know, you have to be, first of all, speaking with dualistic clarity about good and 182 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:55,760 evil, or otherwise we live with moral anarchy. And then God leads you to the non-dual, 183 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:06,160 where you can still be compassionate. You don't stir up anger, you don't stir up rage, 184 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:13,520 but boy, you're tempted to in your first recognition. Does that make sense? 185 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:22,320 Well, yeah, then maybe you can tell me and us, therefore, more about what you mean by this 186 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:29,280 interesting phrase you've come up with, sacred criticism. So, for example, my older brother has 187 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,840 said that, you know, when I was young, I was going around the country telling everybody to be 188 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:42,240 nonviolent or I'll beat you up. Don't agree with him. So, it's been a long journey. How do you be 189 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:49,600 critical of the culture without being violent? And I'm trying to teach nonviolence and I get mad, 190 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:56,880 but I don't want to do that anymore. And I see Gandhi, Dr. King, you know, our friend Daniel 191 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:04,160 Berrigan did it. Tutu was so much fun. He's critiquing South Africa, but he's got everybody 192 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:11,200 laughing too. What do you mean by sacred criticism and what tips do you have to practice it? In other 193 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,280 words, how do you speak truth to power, but with love and nonviolence? 194 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:26,720 Yes, and not superiority or rage or an absolutism that brooks no conversation. 195 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:42,720 You have to be both and both able to see evil, but willing to recognize that my rage is not 196 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:54,720 its reform or its solution. Those are two different movements. I know when people hear me being 197 00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:01,520 critical of things that are happening in politics or history, they say, oh Richard, you're being 198 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:11,520 dualistic. You have to first of all achieve dualistic clarity about good and evil, but then, 199 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:21,920 and this is the work of the Holy Spirit who teaches you how not to stand righteously apart from it, 200 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:29,520 or righteously above it, and then merely fall down in tears. 201 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:37,120 I think you've done that. You've shown that in your whole lifespan. 202 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,480 Thank you, Richard. 203 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,720 You're not the firebrand you worked for. I hope I'm not either. 204 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:51,200 Richard Long ago, I was a friend of mine who spent his life building nuclear weapons, 205 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:57,120 and he quit and became an active leader for the abolition of nuclear weapons, and later used to 206 00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:04,160 meet regularly with Pope John Paul about that. He had this phrase that when we go to the Pentagon, 207 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:12,160 and I'm going to hear asking you how to reflect with me on my own work, we had that regular 208 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,160 campaign at Los Alamos where they build all the nuclear weapons in New Mexico. 209 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:24,960 This friend used to say, having spent his life doing it, go there with the, I hope, 210 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:32,480 the non-dualistic vision that the people are good, but the work is evil. I found that helpful as 211 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:38,960 opposed to everything is evil. We would go up to Los Alamos and there's no, I've learned, 212 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:45,120 there's no judgment. I love to love these people. In fact, I did, but also they're the only ones who 213 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,440 know how to dismantle the darn things. We need them. We're all in the same boat. 214 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:50,480 Well said. 215 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,200 So does that make sense? Because I'm sure there's people who are vigilantly listening to this 216 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:05,680 about how do we live in that place now, here in the United States, to stand up publicly in that 217 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:16,720 space of both and that all people are good, but we are doing evil work. And we can name that without 218 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,520 judging people. Is that possible? 219 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:28,880 To have the mind of Christ, I think you have to undergo two movements. First, the one to see 220 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:37,200 the stupidity and evil that humanity is capable of. But the second one, somewhat 221 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:46,160 coterminous with what I call and Carl Jung calls the two halves of life. The second movement, 222 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:59,040 the second half of life is to recognize that my rage better not be moral superiority. It doesn't 223 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:08,640 come from moral superiority. It's the work of the spirit. And if you let that spirit continue to 224 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:20,880 work in you, it softens your heart to tears. Sometimes literal tears. That has to be what Jesus 225 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:31,360 recognized when he said, how blessed, how happy are those who weep. What was it? Back in the 226 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:42,640 charismatic days, we all spoke of the gift of tears. It's, I think, a loss that we don't 227 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:50,000 recognize it as a gift. The second movement from anger to sadness. 228 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:58,720 So, let me ask you about that. Because as you know, I've been doing this project, 229 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:07,760 the Beatitude Center for the Nonviolent Jesus, and been talking about the Beatitudes and teaching 230 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,760 them and the Sermon on the Mount in my new book, The Gospel of Peace. So, you have the Beatitudes 231 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,560 journey, the poor in spirit and blessed are those who mourn grieving for the world. And then the meek, 232 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:24,720 the gentle, the nonviolent, and hungering thirst for justice. And then the merciful and the clean 233 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,600 of heart. And then your peacemakers, well, then you're going to be persecuted for justice. 234 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,760 And then you're insulted. And the climax is, rejoice and be glad now you're like the prophets. 235 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:45,360 You get to be like Jeremiah and Isaiah and Daniel, which I always say, now we get to be Dr. King 236 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,320 and Dorothy Day and Gandhi, and we get to see how nonviolent we are. Tell me about that, because 237 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:58,000 I never heard anybody in my life, Richard, talk about Jesus saying the goal is to carry on the 238 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,280 prophetic tradition. That's what the Beatitudes are about. What do you think? 239 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:11,680 Well, as long as you aren't identified with the fame or infamy of these 240 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,240 prophetic figures. What do you mean? Richard Lipsetter 241 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:25,200 Well, you want to look like a rebel or you want to look like a prophet. Now, I know, I like to 242 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:34,000 think I know what Jesus means like, then you'll be like the prophets, which means you will be 243 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:41,280 roundly mistrusted, judged, and hated. Yeah, the word is you'll be treated 244 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:47,840 like the prophets of old. Actually, that's not admired. No, you're not going to be admired. 245 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:56,000 Yeah, you won't be admired. Okay, that's why even the majority of mainline church people, 246 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:03,840 you know this. Richard, let me tell you a story and ask what you think about this. You know about 247 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:11,360 my journey and I lived in El Salvador in 1985 in the war zone. But I was a young Jesuit and I was 248 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:17,600 being mentored by the Jesuits at the university who were later assassinated and got to know them 249 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:27,040 all in all. And one day, we were out at one of the parishes and the very poor, and John Sabrino and 250 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,320 Ignacio Acreya, who was assassinated, the president were there. And oddly enough, the Daily Sunday 251 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:39,040 reading was Jesus talking about the prophets. I don't remember what it was, but I never forgot, 252 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:46,560 I think it was Acreya, what he said. He's up there giving a homily to 500 very poor people. 253 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,680 And he said, well, we've had one of the greatest prophets in history here in our own country, 254 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:59,040 Archbishop Oscar Romero. We don't have to be a prophet like Oscar Romero. And very few are 255 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:05,920 called like that. And you can't go around saying, I'm a prophet. But he said, we are called to be a 256 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:13,600 prophetic people. It's the flip side of your thing about the collective evil. He's saying, 257 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:20,240 we collectively, the Church of El Salvador is now a prophetic church. We stand up and say no. 258 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:24,560 What do you think about that? Did you write about that in your book? I never heard anybody say that 259 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:35,360 before. That's the key to keep from ego inflation and keeping from thinking of yourself as morally 260 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:45,760 superior or I'm on moral high ground. That's allowed us to confuse liberal thinking with prophecy. 261 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:54,160 The liberal one wants to be morally superior by his liberal position. The prophet just wants 262 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,480 to speak the word of God, let the cards fall where they may. 263 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:06,240 That's great. Richard, let me ask you about nonviolence. So on the one, you know, my friend, 264 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:14,080 our friend Daniel Berrigan, in the last 20 years of his life, he wrote a dozen books on the prophets 265 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:22,240 and they just had their names, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel, and they're all still in print. So he was 266 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:31,200 saying, and I saw him talk about the journey of the Hebrew prophets. Okay, just bear with me. 267 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:38,240 From the perspective of nonviolence, he was arguing that they are, you know, there's first, 268 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:45,840 there's the false prophets, who are the outspoken people for the empire and the religion of empire 269 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:51,360 or the cultural religion that serves and profits from institutional injustice and so forth. 270 00:35:51,920 --> 00:36:01,360 And then there's the real prophets who are raging and are really calling for, well, he said, 271 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,600 as the time goes on, you move from the just wars of the right, even in the prophets, 272 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:14,720 to just wars of the left, like you could see violent revolutionaries. And then comes Jesus, 273 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,000 who we never see, only you get hints of him, of course, in Daniel and Isaiah, 274 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:27,280 who is a total prophet, but totally nonviolent. So it's a whole, he's the climax of it all. 275 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,240 What do you think of that? 276 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:38,960 Yeah, I think Jesus does the same journey from anger to sadness, but he does it much quicker. 277 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:50,320 He still excoriates the scribes and the Pharisees rather fiercely, I think we have to admit. But 278 00:36:50,320 --> 00:37:01,760 the majority of his teaching is compassion, is forgiveness, is mercy, has said steadfast love. 279 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:09,200 And thank God, that's what we know him for. But we got to be honest, there's a lot of passages like 280 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:20,400 Matthew 23, where Jesus is pretty angry. That's what gave me courage to say, you have to start with 281 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:30,800 dualistic thinking, dualistic clarity about what good is and what evil is, but don't let it capture 282 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:46,000 you. Don't let it envelop you. And Jesus didn't. He moved to the heart, he moved to the soul, 283 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:53,440 he moved to a better analysis than totally good and totally bad. 284 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,680 Well, we've come to the end of our time, and I'd like to talk with you all day. 285 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:05,840 But let me end with a general question of, I urge all the listeners to get your new book, 286 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:17,280 The Tears of Things. And this will be aired around early February, so just as the book comes out. 287 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:25,360 So, any suggestions for people as we wrap up here, as we go forth in terms of, 288 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,520 in these difficult times, following the nonviolent Jesus and maybe together being a prophetic people 289 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:38,880 who speak out for justice and discernment and creation, but with love and compassion? Any last 290 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:49,360 tips? Well, yeah, be careful not to confuse, I said it already, liberalism with prophecy itself. 291 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:58,000 It might be one of the Achilles heels of post-Vatican to liberal Catholicism. 292 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:09,040 We rather broadly confused being progressive with being a prophet. The one is motivated by 293 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:19,760 the need to be right, just in a new way. The other is motivated by the Holy Spirit within you, 294 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:32,000 that holds to a deeper truth, a deeper love. So, do not equate liberal political thinking 295 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:39,760 with biblical prophetic thinking, even though I admit they often overlap. 296 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:47,360 But overlapping is sometimes with rather conservative thinking, too. 297 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,920 Well, thank you so much, Richard. So great. 298 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,120 I hope that makes sense. 299 00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:00,800 Yeah, it's all very helpful and inspiring. I can't wait to read your book. And I thank you for 300 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,320 spending time with me. 301 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,040 Well, thank you for calling me. I'm honored to be on your podcast. 302 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:07,760 Thank you. 303 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,680 Let's hope it does a lot of good. 304 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:15,040 Let's hope and pray. And everybody listening, I thank you for listening today to this 305 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:22,240 new Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear many more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 306 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:29,600 at BeatitudesCenter.org. And there you can leave any comments or feedback or make a donation. 307 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,960 And join us in the weeks ahead when I'll welcome other friends like Sister Joan Chiddester, 308 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:40,960 Reverend Barber, and Joan Baez. So, may the God of peace bless us all. 309 00:40:40,960 --> 00:41:01,600 Keep on following the Nonviolent Jesus and see you next time. Thanks so much.