1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,520 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm John, Father John Deere, and today I'm 2 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:25,660 speaking with my friend, author, and activist, Sister Helen Prejean. This podcast is part 3 00:00:25,660 --> 00:00:31,600 of the BeatitudeCenter.org, where you can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom 4 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:38,400 programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working for a more just, more 5 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,400 nonviolent world. 6 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,400 I like to begin with a little prayer, so I invite everyone just to, wherever you are, 7 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:51,760 take a deep breath and to relax and enter into the presence of the God of peace who 8 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:59,200 loves you personally, infinitely, and let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us. 9 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:05,040 And just take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need to follow the nonviolent Jesus 10 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:10,080 more faithfully and to do God's will. 11 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,500 Beloved God of peace, thank you for all the blessings of life and love and peace that 12 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:21,180 you give us. Be with us as we reflect on the life and teachings of the nonviolent Jesus 13 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:27,520 that we might follow him ever more faithfully and do our part to help end war, poverty, 14 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,560 violence, racism, executions, nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and to welcome your 15 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:41,960 reign of universal love, universal compassion, and universal peace. In Jesus' name, amen. 16 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:43,460 Amen. 17 00:01:43,460 --> 00:01:48,100 Sister Helen Prejean is one of the world's most beloved Catholic leaders and prophetic 18 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:53,680 voices, a sister of St. Joseph of Medi. She's one of the world's leading voices against 19 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:59,840 the death penalty. She's the author of the bestselling book, Dead Man Walking, which 20 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:06,160 was made into the Oscar-winning movie starring Susan Srandon and Sean Penn. Her work then 21 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:12,020 was turned into an amazing opera, which recently premiered at the Metropolitan Opera House 22 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:19,000 in New York, and it's been turned into a play. And she's written other bestsellers such as 23 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:25,280 The Death of Innocence and River of Fire, a spiritual memoir. 24 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,160 Sister Helen is speaking to us today on the phone from her home in New Orleans. Sister 25 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,400 Helen Prejean, welcome to my new podcast on the nonviolent Jesus. 26 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:39,440 Hey, this is very exciting, John. I'm really glad to be a part of this. 27 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:45,240 Thank you. So last week, Helen, when I texted you about this and you said yes, you wrote 28 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:54,400 back and said, Jesus ain't no John Wayne Jesus. I mean, what? You mean to tell me Jesus ain't 29 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,160 like John Wayne? Talk to me. 30 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,600 No, talk to you is right. Listen, when you're working with the death penalty point, it really 31 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:09,680 becomes clear, John, because the John Wayne Jesus quotes the sections of the scripture, 32 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:15,060 including revelations in the New Testament, that Jesus is coming back to get justice and 33 00:03:15,060 --> 00:03:22,840 he is peoed, throwing people into a fiery pit. And here's Jesus coming back. Be afraid, 34 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:30,320 be very afraid. This is the God or Jesus of recriminations. You kill, we're going to kill 35 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:37,360 you. Prosecutors making their case to a jury and just saying, he killed. And so what justice 36 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:48,000 means is that we kill him. And God's in favor of this, as if our God is a God who gets justice 37 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:54,920 satisfied by the pound of flesh, a life for life. It is really operative in my world as 38 00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:01,400 I work on the death penalty of seeing Jesus in the name of violence being claimed. 39 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:09,920 That's so powerful, Helen. Well, you know well that I've been running this project, 40 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:18,080 the Beatitudes Center, and it's the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount. And I just wanted 41 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,960 to ask you to say any words you thought about the Beatitudes. I won't read them to you, 42 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:29,400 but because a lot of people from the Beatitudes Center will be hearing this. And so Gandhi 43 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,620 said that the Sermon on the Mount were the greatest teachings of nonviolence and universal 44 00:04:34,620 --> 00:04:40,040 love ever. So he read them every day. And when you read the Beatitudes, blessed are 45 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,280 the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, the gentle, the nonviolent, those who hunger 46 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:51,360 and thirst for justice, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers and the persecuted, 47 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:58,640 which ones touch you and inspire you and challenge you these days. When I think of you, Helen, 48 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,920 I think of blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Because in the end, isn't 49 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,200 that what we're trying to do in our work to end the death penalty, just to grant clemency 50 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,880 or mercy? But any words or thoughts about living the Beatitudes? 51 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:18,560 Yeah, well, definitely the mercy one is very, very operative in my life, because I see it 52 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:25,280 played out or not played out. I mean, I know we will, this will be in January when this 53 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:32,240 airs, but right now, me and a lot of people I know getting to Joe Biden to grant mercy 54 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,920 to all the people on the federal death row, so Trump doesn't kill them. And we know that 55 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:44,160 he will because he has done that before he left office before. 13 people killed. It's 56 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:50,720 the last vestige of the divine right of kings to decide that people live or die. And so, 57 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:59,440 active mercy in the world couldn't be more dramatic or pronounced than you live or you die, 58 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,760 or having the power to be able to give mercy to people, which the clemency process and 59 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,200 the death penalty does. 60 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:17,040 So powerful, Helen. I think in terms of Jesus and the death penalty, Jesus as a victim of 61 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,040 the death penalty, one of the most amazing stories about Jesus comes from John chapter 62 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,600 eight, where he literally saves the life of the woman about to be stoned to death by the 63 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,960 religious leaders who, of course, are all mean, law-abiding men. So I want to say a word about 64 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:38,080 it and ask you. I never got to ask you about John eight. So they bring her there. They're in the 65 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,240 sacredest place in the world, the temple. They accuse her, challenge him about her. 66 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:50,640 And what does he do? Instead of yelling back, he bends down and draws on the ground, which I 67 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:56,800 think is an act of creative nonviolence. So he distracts them, draws their attention away 68 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,240 from their anger for a moment so that they can hear him. And then he stands up and gives us this 69 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:08,320 punchline, let the one without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. And they walk away. 70 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:14,480 And he does not condemn her, but treats her with compassion. I think the passage 71 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:22,800 forbids Christians from ever killing someone. We are people who don't condemn, but we try to stop 72 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,960 killing and side with the condemned. What's your take on that story of Jesus? 73 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:34,320 Yeah. Well, I think, John, it's very linked to Jesus also saying to love your enemies, 74 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:40,960 pray for your enemies, forgive your enemies. Forgiveness, I think, is really related to that 75 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:47,440 same spirit because, and I learned this, I learned this concretely from a man, 76 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:56,880 Lloyd LeBlanc, whose 17-year-old son was murdered. How forgiveness works in our heart, because, as 77 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:04,080 Lloyd LeBlanc said, it's perceived, forgiveness is perceived as weakness, just like mercy is perceived 78 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,680 as weakness. What, you're going to have mercy? The John Wayne Jesus comes in there and says, 79 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:16,240 no, watch this, man, I'm getting even. And that's the whole Rambo thing that has come to us. But 80 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:24,160 what is entailed in forgiving your enemy? If it's not weakness, what is it? And the way Lloyd LeBlanc 81 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:32,480 put it was after his son was murdered, he was consumed with anger. He wanted to kill with his 82 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:39,760 own bare hands, Pat Sonier and his brother who had killed his son. But here's what he noticed. He 83 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:46,640 kept praying, see, Jesus, you got to help me, because he knew he wasn't in alignment with what 84 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:54,480 Jesus wanted of him in his life and his own good heart. He knew he wasn't in alignment with eternal 85 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:02,880 life, and he kept praying. And then when the prayer was answered, the way it was answered in him was 86 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:10,080 that he realized that his own anger was eating him alive. And when he came to this realization 87 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:16,080 with the grace that was with it, he put up his hand toward me like a stop, like this. And then he 88 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:24,320 said, I said, uh-uh, they killed my son, but I'm not going to let them kill me. Because if I'll let 89 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:30,000 this anger keep going inside of me, I'm going to die. I'm already dying. I'm making my wife cry. 90 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:37,600 I'm neglecting my daughter, Vicki. And he came to it as this understanding, this deep compassion 91 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:45,280 that these were human beings. They had done this to his son, but that he was not going to lose 92 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:52,240 his life because of it. And he was the only one in the town that showed compassion to the mother 93 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,600 of Pat and Eddie Sonier, Gladys Sonier, who lived in this little town of St. Martinville. 94 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:04,880 He appears at her front door one day and he's got a basket of fruit. And he hands it to her and he 95 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:12,320 said, Ms. Sonier, I know you're having a tough time in this town, but I want you to know I'm a parent 96 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:18,720 just like you. And we never know really completely all our children might do. And I don't hold you 97 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:24,000 responsible for the death of David, our son. And here, these are for you. And he gave her. 98 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:32,480 Wow. Wow. There it is in action, see? And it's saving your own life. It's the real meaning of 99 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,400 peace that you're not overcome by this violence, which will eat you alive. One victim's family I 100 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:45,360 talked to one time said, it's like I was drinking this poison of this anger and this hatred, 101 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,520 and I was hoping it would kill him, but I'm drinking the poison. 102 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,080 It's amazing. Well, let me ask you more about forgiveness then, because it's at the heart 103 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,880 of Jesus' teachings. It's in the Sermon on the Mount. It's in the Lord's Prayer, 104 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,880 forgive us the way we forgive. 105 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,360 Yeah, many times. Probably the biggest thing. 106 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:09,360 And the brother comes, do I have to forgive seven times a day, my brother? That's Peter and Andrew. 107 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,120 And no, 70 times, seven times. I think that's 490 times a day, by the way. 108 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,920 I'm not good with the math, but that's all. 109 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Of course you can go figure that out. 110 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:30,560 Yeah, but no, for my life, if I forgive once every month, that's a big deal. 490 times a day. 111 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,720 So I want to ask you about this. And you remember my story was with my friend Billy Neal Moore, 112 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:42,160 who was the longest on death row in the 80s. And he's about to be executed. And so I go to Georgia 113 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,760 and I got Mother Teresa to appeal for him. And we were going around the state having public events 114 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:56,240 the week before his execution, saying, okay, we're having prayer services for clemency to the Georgia 115 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:02,160 Board of Pardon Paroles. And Saturday night, I'm in Macon, Georgia with a big crowded church, 116 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,560 and I'm about to go there and the lawyer shows up from death row with a letter from Billy saying, 117 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:16,160 don't you hold a prayer service for me, John. I want you to, you know, just don't do this, cancel it, 118 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:23,280 because I don't want anyone going to God asking for clemency in my name when none of you grant 119 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:29,680 clemency to the people in your own lives. And it was just one of the greatest moments of my life. 120 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:31,680 Can you imagine? He's about to be executed. 121 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,960 I've got a question. How did he know people weren't granting clemency now? 122 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,000 John McHenry I guess he knew me. 123 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:38,560 Helen Burt What kind of a judgment? 124 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:41,440 John McHenry No, he was my friend. He knew me. 125 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,480 Helen Burt That'll do. 126 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,960 John McHenry Hey, you're not supposed to agree with him, 127 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:54,000 Helen. No, seriously, when I first, I wrote him every week for seven years. And the first letter 128 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:01,200 I wrote, this is to make you laugh, Helen. Dear Billy Neal Moore on death row, I'm a Jesuit novice. 129 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:10,320 I'm here to help you. And I'm here to help you. And I'm writing you what can I do for you. And 130 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,440 without missing a beat, this guy on death row wrote me back. He goes, Dear John, well, thank you for 131 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:21,280 your letter. I'm fine. My whole life is in the hands of Jesus. You on the other hand sound like 132 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:30,080 you're a mess. So here I got Mother Teresa. So we canceled, I want you to talk about this, 133 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:36,240 about forgiveness, because it was life changing for me. We canceled the prayer service. I stood 134 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,200 up and read the letter and said, okay, we're just going to sit in silence for 20 minutes. 135 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:49,360 And I want you all to recall with all the vim and feeling you can, all the people you hate. 136 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,880 This is what I said. And you're anger for. Helen Burt 137 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,040 It's great to have those little hate sessions. That's great, John. 138 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,040 John McHenry This is a whole new kind of pastoral approach, 139 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:05,600 Helen. And I got them, I'm going to stand up and we're going to say together, God of clemency, 140 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:14,080 I grant clemency to everyone who ever hurt me in my life. Please grant us clemency and give us the 141 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:20,240 miracle of clemency for Billy Neal Moore. Everyone did it. Everyone burst into tears. And as you 142 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:27,280 recall, three days later, Billy was granted the first person 150 years in Georgia, total clemency, 143 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,120 and he's out now. He's 30 years out. He's got a family and he's a minister. 144 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,640 Helen Burt I think the teaching is to grant clemency. 145 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:35,600 Helen Burt Okay, let me tell you about forgiveness. 146 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:46,960 Just even look at the word, John. It means for give, for, F-O-R-E, to give before. 147 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:57,120 So what it means is that largeness of heart to reach out and to give even before something is 148 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:04,320 happened, that what your attitude and what your love is going to be, for giving. And that's the 149 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:11,120 way I learned it through Lloyd LeBlanc, that victim's family, his son had been killed. He gave, 150 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:17,280 he said, uh-uh, they killed my son, but they're not going to kill me. He was reaching out in his 151 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:25,680 heart to them, realizing their humanity, his humanity, his own son's humanity, and giving to 152 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:34,640 them before. It's this graciousness, it's this largeness of heart not to be captured by something 153 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:43,920 that's so constricting and sucking the life from us as anger and hatred. What do you think of M. 154 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:44,320 Apples? 155 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,440 John It's so powerful. And in my own life, 156 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:56,480 as I learned from Billy to make forgiveness a daily practice, it's not a one-time thing, but you just 157 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,120 feel better. You know, you feel more peaceful. 158 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,040 But you know what, we gotta learn not to 159 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,080 forgive too easily either, because facile forgiveness is not the real thing either. 160 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:06,960 John Well, then what is it? 161 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,120 Well, I mean, it takes, well, because first of all, 162 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,480 like you have to ask for honesty and accountability where injustice has been done. 163 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:23,200 Like right now, I'm writing this book on Manuel Ortiz, who they went after, accusing him of 164 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:30,640 hiring somebody to kill his wife for the insurance money. And they never pursued the women who had 165 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:36,240 been killed, who happened to be two African American women, both murdered. And they never 166 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:42,800 investigated who actually killed the women. They just went after Manuel, put a bull's eye on his 167 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:49,840 back to go get him as the murder-for-hire guy. So I'm not gonna forgive them too quickly for what 168 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:56,160 they have done to Manuel. We're gonna get accountability and justice. But I'll do it and 169 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:03,280 do it with compassion. Like they're human, they have made a mistake. And, you know, they're 170 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:09,280 stunned with love and compassion to them, not with this anger and vitriol where I start accusing them. 171 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:15,520 I just wrote a letter to the DA who was in charge of the whole case. And that letter is not filled 172 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:22,160 with anger and vitriol or accusations and name calling and all that kind of stuff. It's just like, 173 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:28,320 look, we want to get DNA testing so we can get justice for the two women that were killed. 174 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,840 And their real actual killers have never been sought. They're just out there somewhere. 175 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:41,200 It's a disrespect for the women who were killed. So that's just an example from my life of like, 176 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,320 not saying, oh, well, they made a mistake. I'll forgive the prosecutors. They did the wrong thing. 177 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,440 It's not mine to forgive them in the first place. 178 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,040 That's so helpful, Helen. That's a great thing. Well, let me ask you then about 179 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:01,680 the death penalty and still about forgiveness. And we still have so much work to do. And thank 180 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,720 you for your leadership to end the death penalty in the US. And of course, there are many reasons 181 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:12,080 why we need to do so, just to name some. It doesn't work. It's too expensive. It doesn't deter people 182 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,440 stuck in the cycle of violence. It doesn't bring closure or healing or peace, as the victims' 183 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:23,600 families are now telling us. It's part of the legacy of racism and classism. So ingrained in 184 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,480 that country. Yeah, but the one thing that I want to... 185 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,760 But the evolution of the church is important too, in our understanding. Well, say something about that, 186 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,120 but also, you know, you've been telling me about Lloyd LeBlanc. And as I was thinking of you, I 187 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:44,240 thought, you know, the murder victims' families for reconciliation, our friends there, they had 188 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:50,480 their loved ones killed. And they came out publicly saying, don't execute the murderer of my family. 189 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,560 They're the real witnesses. How do we get to that place of 190 00:18:54,560 --> 00:19:00,400 We're people of restorative justice, yes. And we want a more nonviolent world, but I don't want 191 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:06,320 anyone killed in the name of my loved one. I met a few people like that with September 11th. But anyway, 192 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:11,840 so tell us... Well, but this is where, John, we gotta work with changing the law and the policies, 193 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,520 which legitimize the killing of the enemy. RG Okay, tell me. 194 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,880 RG I mean, we gotta work on that. But the evolution of the church is great, because it's just 195 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:30,400 growing into the gospel of Jesus in our understanding in the church about the death penalty. Because look, 196 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:38,880 for 1500 years, 1500 years, it took in this dialogue with the church to come to a point 197 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:45,440 of being at the same point as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the UN, which is 198 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:53,360 that simply by being a human being, we have an inalienable right to life. So governments 199 00:19:53,360 --> 00:20:00,160 don't have the power to alienate our life from us. Governments don't have the power to 200 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:07,520 give people a reward for good behavior or take away their life for bad behavior. 201 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:16,800 And see, all those years of teaching, the church had in its teaching, the state has the right 202 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:23,200 to take life. And that was a sticking point, even all through the 70s, as the US bishops, 203 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:29,840 as we were all growing and understanding that the death penalty was a bad thing all the way around, 204 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:36,480 it kept holding on to the right to take life. And so the dialogue that happened with me and the church 205 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:45,200 through Pope John Paul II, he was the first one, but then Pope Francis changed the catechism 206 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:52,640 finding, was once you give the right to the government to take life, you're legitimizing it. 207 00:20:52,640 --> 00:21:00,400 And they will set the criteria. They will say, you know, what are the criteria when we decide that 208 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:06,800 some people need to be killed for what they did? So that power needs to be taken from them. And so 209 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:14,160 then finally, in August 2018, Pope Francis was the one who changed the catechism. And so we grow 210 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:21,680 morally, we evolve. And it happened in the fifth century when St. Augustine was the first one 211 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:28,320 to ever depart literally from the gospels and say we could use violence. Violence could be used 212 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:35,360 to contain the violent. Violent can be coerced with the sword, with the way he put it. 213 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,440 And so, but look at what was going on in society. There were no prisons. They had to visit gas and 214 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:48,800 the gas, you know, knocking down the gates of Rome. There was chaos, no prisons. So as prisons 215 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:57,280 evolved, we have an alternative way of keeping society safe without imitating the violence and 216 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:04,160 killing the killers. And so all of that grew within mostly in the minds and hearts of the people on 217 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:10,000 the ground. The people of God are the ones who have these direct experiences. And then that 218 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:16,480 experience flows up into the church and changes things. Like it's going to change for the 219 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:24,320 ordination of women. Like it's changed for gays. Like the ordinary experience of incarnation on 220 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,480 the ground with real people is what teaches us and helps us grow. 221 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:38,240 So great. So Francis is now calling for a culture of mercy, a culture of non-violence. He used that 222 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:46,000 phrase, which is so helpful. Now I want to just talk to you about the way our friend Daniel 223 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:53,120 Berrigan put it, which is the flip side. So he's coming at it from the real negative. And I never 224 00:22:53,120 --> 00:23:00,240 asked you this, so I want to hear what you think. When I met Dan 41 years ago as a kid, he said, 225 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:08,080 and I quote, what we're up against is death as a social methodology. I almost fell out of my chair. 226 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,040 That's exactly right. No, but that's exactly right. 227 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,920 Isn't that powerful? And then he went on to talk about the means and metaphors of death, 228 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:24,080 like racism, sexism, greed, or metaphors. But really the whole system is death. We bring good 229 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:31,840 people to death. And then I think of my favorite poem is by Edna St. Vincent Millay called 230 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:37,680 Conscientious Objector. And her first sentence, and I think it gets into the nonviolent Jesus 231 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:46,160 and resurrection, is, I shall die, but that is all I shall do for death. Tell me about that. 232 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,720 No, that's a great line. But see what Dan was on to was this culture of death. 233 00:23:53,760 --> 00:24:00,320 And boy, the way you really see it is when you actually have legislators arguing for it, 234 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:08,400 that we have to have death as a statute in our state legislature. And see what's different about 235 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:16,160 when the Gregg decision was made in Supreme Court in 1976, where they said there are some acts of 236 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:24,560 human beings that are so, they call them the worst of the worst. By their very nature, they demand 237 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:31,840 death, a death for death. And see, that's really a culture of death, because first of all, that's 238 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,920 putting yourself up as being able to judge the difference between an ordinary murder and what 239 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:43,360 we'll call the worst of the worst. And that's why the racism comes in there. I mean, this case 240 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:50,720 right now of Badwell-Artees, with two African-American women were killed in this 241 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:58,640 white bedroom community of Meadoway, Louisiana. And racism comes in there because you don't value 242 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:06,480 some victims as you value other victims. And you would have to have an absolutely pure society 243 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:12,560 to say that you value the life of everyone. You would feel equally outraged if a homeless person 244 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:20,080 got killed or a young black man got killed or a white coed that goes to Tulane University got 245 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,960 killed. And we are nowhere near that. We don't have the purity to be able to do that. So that 246 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:32,560 culture, see, the culture of violence and who uses the violence and who benefits from it. You always 247 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:38,320 got to look at who benefits from it. Yeah. You know, as you're talking and you were talking about 248 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:44,720 the historical, for lack of a better word, progress through history of the church, and let's say, 249 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,680 toward, we're moving, we want to move, the vision is toward, for Jesus, a culture of mercy, 250 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:56,480 a culture of nonviolence. I was thinking about our friend Archbishop Tutu. So they went farther than 251 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,120 anybody has in South Africa. Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. Talking about a culture, change in the culture. 252 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:06,480 Yeah, Mandela becomes president and the Constitution abolishes the death penalty, 253 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:12,320 and they had six nuclear weapons. But then they start the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. 254 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:20,880 And remember, Tutu is dealing with, he's the chair of it, the worst, most horrific white people who 255 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:29,040 tortured and killed black people. And he brings in the greatest psychiatrist in the world from 256 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:37,360 London, and he studies the worst sociopath. And then there's a verdict, and he brings him, 257 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:42,480 the psychiatrist says, oh, yeah, everybody's redeemable. And it was such a shock. Like, 258 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,920 yeah, this person, in other words, well, we're nowhere near like that, that everyone can 259 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,160 become more nonviolent, I guess, as a culture. What do you think about that? 260 00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:01,600 Well, because I've had the warden at Angola prison, tough prison, say to me, do you know who, 261 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:08,960 by and large, becomes our best trustees in this prison? He says people who come here for murder. 262 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:16,400 Because see, to try to identify a human being solely with an action, because there's a 263 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:22,480 transcendence in persons, we're made in the image and likeness of God, we can change. And he said, 264 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,160 most of them that have committed murder didn't know when they got up that morning, they would 265 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,600 go murder somebody, they got in a fight in a bar, they were on drugs or whatever. 266 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:36,800 People can do unspeakable acts, but they can never be defined solely by an action. 267 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:43,200 People can always change. And Biden even made this statement of the 39 people 268 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,920 that he pardoned recently who are there for nonviolent crimes in prison, excessive sentencing. 269 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:57,200 And the people who were sent home because of COVID, who have integrated their lives in a 270 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:03,520 nonviolent way, people can always change. And it's when we put ourselves up as the judge, 271 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:11,840 the arrogant judges, to be able to decide, we think that some people are not capable of changes and we 272 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:17,440 have to kill them. That is where the arrogance really comes in and where we lose our humanity. 273 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,840 So boy, that path that they pointed that Archbishop Tutu and the peace and reconciliation, 274 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:30,720 I mean, we had never seen anything like that. And those families, those wonderful families that 275 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:38,560 attended, heard what they did to their loved ones, and then were willing not to ask violence be done 276 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:45,600 to them. Those are real heroes, I think of that. And it just shows us as human beings what can be 277 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:52,720 done. And we can be more than we are, all of us. Wow, that's so great. Okay, I want to ask you again 278 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,680 about Jesus. So I'm a big name dropper, as you know. I want to ask you about the passage that 279 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,600 I've been working on for about 10 or 15 years, which is, I think, Luke 10, where he sends the 280 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:12,000 72 ahead. And I want to say a word about it and then just ask you to tell me anything you think 281 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:21,040 about it. Why am I asking you this? Once, years ago, one of our visits at a party or an event, 282 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:27,600 you said to me as I was leaving, isn't it great, John, to be on mission? And I loved that, Helen. 283 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,760 And no one had ever said that to me before. And like, we knew the Barragans, wow, were they on a 284 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:42,000 mission, but they wouldn't use that word. So in Luke 10, Jesus sends the 72 out in pairs ahead of 285 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:48,880 him. He's like a, I always joke that Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. I don't know if I'm 286 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:55,600 allowed to say that. Okay, thank you. Okay, yeah, Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. Go ahead, 287 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:02,720 John. So I know it's a setback. So he says, I'm sending you out like lambs into the midst of 288 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:10,800 wolves. Wow. And you got three things. You're to heal the victims of violence. Wow. You're to expel 289 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,200 the demons of violence. Okay, you don't need to kill people anymore and so forth. And you're to 290 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:23,120 proclaim God's reign of peace and love and justice. And they come back rejoicing, and he rejoices. 291 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:29,040 And I came to the conclusion, Helen, it's the only time in the four gospels where the poor guy 292 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:36,720 is happy. Because they did what he wanted. They were doing, so how do you, what do you think of 293 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:43,200 that passage? And how do you think about, we're all kind of really being sent on a mission into 294 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,680 our culture of violence to proclaim the reign of God. And what do you think about that? 295 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Right. But you know what has struck me recently more and more is that expelling of demons seems 296 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,800 so weird to us. You know, demons got these demons. Although, boy, before legislation, 297 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,760 you hear people getting up, making these arguments about the death penalty. I mean, 298 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,520 they're possessed of this whole thing of we've got to do it this way. And their own political careers 299 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,920 are tied to it, see? And that's what makes it so, it is like a demon. And the other thing about 300 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:28,800 Jesus sending them out with no food, no knapsack, no purse, no why, because they're going to depend 301 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:36,480 on community. And when violence erupts in our society, like think of gang members killing 302 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,840 people to be initiated into the gang. It's because they need community, they need family. 303 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:48,720 And you think of people that have worked with gangs and people like that, but it's to belong 304 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:55,120 in some way. So when you belong to a community, and I think this, we can't do justice for longer 305 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:02,800 than a weekend to be on mission, for longer than a weekend without our community of support. I mean, 306 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,720 I was just with lawyers, human rights lawyers over at my friend, Denny LaBuff's house, 307 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:16,320 that are defending the people in Guantanamo, you know, the mastermind of the 9-11 murders, 308 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:23,520 the people who did 9-11. And there they are, and we all haven't suffered together. These great women, 309 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:31,520 three great women, then we were together, and they are defending people that everybody, almost 310 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:39,600 everybody in the world will say are indefensible. But the victims of 9-11, the families for a 311 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:46,720 peaceful tomorrow are very aware that getting the death penalty for people in Guantanamo is not the 312 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:54,720 answer for their peace. And so the whole thing of sending you out and look two by two, you don't do 313 00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,640 it alone. You always, I was just thanking Sister Margaret again today for being with me for 25 314 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,920 years. We've been doing this. And she's right there at my side, and we're doing it together, 315 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:12,400 you know, and we do it in community. And that helps us be peaceful, because if we're out there alone 316 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,280 and we feel they're coming after us, that's what makes us fine with the defense. 317 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,000 Nat. Oh, that's wonderful, Helen. Thank you. Now... 318 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,080 Helen. There'll be no charge. 319 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:30,800 Nat. Oh, there'll be a small charge. Now, I'm not going to ask you to talk about this. I want to 320 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:38,080 still talk about the women by the cross of Jesus. You've accompanied, I think, seven men to their 321 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,840 deaths on death row. Helen. 322 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:40,880 Eight men. Helen. 323 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,640 Just another man in Texas. Nat. 324 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:48,960 And you witnessed their executions, which I can't even ponder. And I can't because of my PTSD 325 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:55,280 in El Salvador. But in terms of the gospel, I see you in the lineage of the holy women 326 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:01,200 who stood with Jesus as He died on the cross, a victim of the death penalty, capital punishment 327 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:09,120 by the Roman Empire for the capital crime of stirring up revolution. Could you share some 328 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,920 thoughts about that image? And it's part of the call or the life, I suppose, of standing in 329 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,320 of standing in solidarity, grieving, accompaniment with the world's poor, the world's condemned, 330 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,480 with Christ being killed today. Any thoughts on that? 331 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,800 Helen. Yeah, what a grace. What a privilege, John. 332 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:38,160 Like I was with Ivan Cantu in the execution chamber. I was standing right close to him 333 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:45,200 and praying into his ear as they killed him. And what a grace that is. I mean, people look at me 334 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:52,960 as this. Oh, wow. You're so brave to do that. They are brave. They are the ones in graves doing it. 335 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:59,040 And Ivan's last words were to the victims family. I didn't kill your son and daughter if I'd known 336 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:05,680 who did it. I mean, the thing's so bloody broken. And then to be able to be there and see it's the 337 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:13,600 presence, it's the accompaniment. I don't actually add that much to their life. I just reinforce in 338 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:20,960 him there and then that faith that's already there. And it's such and you know what? I guess the 339 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:28,400 reason I'm not burnt out on all this and walking away saying I'm never doing that again is the 340 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:36,560 mission I received from them, the mandate. I can't walk away from the death of Ivan Cantu or the death 341 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:42,800 of Pat Sonia or the death of Robert Lee Willie and Willie Philstein and Dobie Williams and just say, 342 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:50,240 oh, that's too painful. I'm not doing that anymore. I have been a witness. And when you're a witness, 343 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:59,120 as Elie Wiesel put it, witnesses have a mandate and a mission and a charge to tell people and 344 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:04,480 bring them close to what they have seen so people's hearts can change. 345 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:12,880 That's so beautiful. I want to ask you about the resurrection of the nonviolent Jesus. And I forgot 346 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,400 to bring it, but at the end of my collection of our friend Daniel Berrigan's writings, 347 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:24,400 called Daniel Berrigan Essential Writing, I put in this very, very obscure passage I found. I 348 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:31,440 forgot to bring it, but it goes something like this. You can't run an empire and use death as 349 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:38,080 a social methodology if you have these crazies running around saying, hey, our guy's not dead. 350 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:48,000 And so, he wrote, you go and look up that, Pat. It's so funny, but it's so obvious now, 351 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:54,240 like, because death is it. That's all they got to put it. So, you know, how do you understand 352 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:59,360 resurrection? Of course, I want to tell you my take, which is resurrection means having nothing 353 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:05,840 to do with death and nothing to do with violence and therefore nonviolence and really we're getting 354 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:10,560 for resurrection and we're helping people move to the new life of resurrection. 355 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,400 Where are you thinking these days about the resurrection of Jesus and the meaning for it 356 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:17,920 for all of us now? 357 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,760 First of all, the great, great insight, which I got through John Dominic Crossend of the Eastern 358 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:29,040 Church's whole approach to the resurrection. So, we've always thought of it, or I tended to, 359 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:34,240 as an individual resurrection. Jesus was resurrected from the dead, so we're going to 360 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:41,200 be too. And we picture in our little ego self, surviving death, but yet just being ego us. 361 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:49,360 It's all about me, right? I survive. And just shows in those early, early paintings consistently 362 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:56,400 in the Eastern Church of Jesus pulling up Adam and Eve with him, pulling up. He descended into 363 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:06,080 hell that passage and we resurrect in community. We do it together. It's not about this individualized 364 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:14,480 ego being resurrected. So, if we begin to learn to love others now, and I have to tell you that I 365 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:21,440 have actually witnessed, like I'm thinking of Ivan Cantu, who was just killed in Texas, February 28. 366 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:28,800 He was a free man inside. He was facing the anxiety and fear of his death. I said, 367 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,600 Ivan, how are you? He goes, well, I'm anxious. I said, well, Jesus was anxious too. How can you 368 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,720 not be anxious? You're a human being. This is really a big, big step from which there's no coming 369 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:47,040 back. But he had that will, that freedom within him, which you can sense is resurrection. 370 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:53,360 That's great. I want to, because we're at our time, I just want to ask you two little questions, 371 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,160 which of course are ridiculous. Yeah, look, I know you squeeze it in too. 372 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,160 I know what you're doing. I know what you're doing. 373 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:05,360 He's not a John Wayne Jesus. Okay. I want to ask you about Dr. King and I want to ask you about the 374 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:11,760 nonviolent Jesus. Okay. So, this month when this is broadcast is the 100th birthday of Dr. King. 375 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:18,880 And you know, I'm such a fanatic of Dr. King, our great teacher, and it just melts me every time you 376 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:25,120 tell me the story. So, I want you to tell everyone again the story in honor of the great man's 100th 377 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:33,280 birthday of the time you met him in the airport. Yeah, at O'Hare. I was actually, I was coming home 378 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:41,360 for the Christmas holidays. And then when I read his story, I knew he was coming from Cicero, Illinois, 379 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,680 Illinois. It was the most hateful community. They marched in the streets, they threw bricks at him, 380 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:53,440 they spit at him. He was just coming out of that. And lo and behold, I'm standing in line. 381 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:58,800 At the O'Hare airport? Yeah, it was O'Hare. I remember I was in Chicago. 382 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:05,920 So, it's like 1966 or 67. Yeah, it would have been December of 66, 383 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:13,440 because I was going home for Christmas, I remember. And I see him in line, he's behind me. 384 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:21,280 And I said, I think that's daggone Warren Luther King right there. And you know, I hadn't done 385 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,160 anything in the civil rights movement. I learned to play my guitar, to answer my friend who's 386 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:33,840 blowing in the wind. I was not awakened yet to social justice. I didn't do beans in the civil 387 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:40,240 rights. Okay. And that's where compassion comes in too, because it took me so long to get awake, 388 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:46,960 John. I was in my 40s when I finally woke up to social justice. Okay. But anyway, I see him there. 389 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,240 And I was ahead of him in line. So I got out of line, I went back to him. And I took his hand, 390 00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:59,120 and he looked so tired. And if you see him in pictures of airport, he's dropping off asleep. 391 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:05,840 It was so tiring, not just the action itself of what they were doing, but all the community 392 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:13,120 struggles they were having. And I said, are you Martin Luther King? And he said, yes, sister. 393 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:19,280 He says, I said, oh, I said, I so appreciate what you're doing. And I'm praying for you. And he 394 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:25,280 took my hand and he pressed it warmly, said, thank you, sister. We need prayers. We need prayers so 395 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,560 bad. And then I went and got back in the line. I went, I just met Martin Luther King. But when 396 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:36,720 I really met him was when I moved in among poor people in the inner city of New Orleans and read 397 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:44,320 his life. That's when I met him. Thank you, Helen. So, you know, thank you for being here and talking 398 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:50,640 about all of these wonderful things and sharing your life with everyone. Any last thoughts, 399 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:59,280 suggestions, tips about following the nonviolent Jesus? It's fresh. It's always ongoing. I mean, 400 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,400 like the meditation today, we're in Advent, and it's Matthew who's the one who gives us, 401 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:11,760 his name will be Jesus, and he's Emmanuel, the one who uses that. And then that identification, 402 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:18,160 and where is he? Where is he? He's with the poor. He's with the homeless. He's with the people in 403 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:25,360 prison. And it's always fresh for us, the invitation to go live it anew and help Christ be born. 404 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:31,680 Because if we don't help Christ be born with our hands and our eyes and our actions and our books 405 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:38,880 and our whatever we do, Christ doesn't live except enough. That's my thing. Keep it fresh. 406 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,360 Thank you so much, sister Helen. Pray, John, for speaking with me. 407 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,680 Helen Great to talk to you, John, as always. 408 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,320 John Thank you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear more 409 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:58,000 podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter.org. And you can also offer 410 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,920 their comments and feedback and make a donation to support this free work. Join me next week when 411 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:10,080 my guest will be Father Richard Rohr talking about his new book on the prophets. May the God of peace 412 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:21,680 bless everyone. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus like sister Helen. See you next time.