1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,440 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm John, Father John Dear, and today I'm speaking 2 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:29,600 with my friend, actor and activist Martin Sheen. This podcast is a project of www.beattitudescenter.org, 3 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:35,520 you can find many other podcasts and Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing 4 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:42,200 nonviolence and working for a more just, more nonviolent world. What I'd like to do is begin 5 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,520 with a little prayer, so I invite everyone to just take a deep breath and relax and enter 6 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,960 into the presence of the God of peace who loves you infinitely and personally. And let's 7 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:01,480 welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us and ask for the grace to follow the nonviolent 8 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:08,680 Jesus ever more faithfully and do God's will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 9 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,720 of life and love and peace that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect together on the 10 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:19,360 life and teachings of the nonviolent Jesus that we might follow him more faithfully and 11 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:26,600 do our part to help end war, poverty, violence, racism, execution, nuclear weapons, and environmental 12 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:33,640 destruction and welcome your reign of universal love, universal compassion, and universal 13 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,360 peace in Jesus' name. Amen. 14 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:37,360 Amen. 15 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Yeah, Martin Sheen is one of our most celebrated award-winning actors for movies such as Apocalypse 16 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:52,480 Now, Gandhi, Selma, the American President, Gettysburg, The Way, Badlands, and many more, 17 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:58,320 and of course, the star of the TV series The West Wing where he played President Bartlett. 18 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:03,280 But Martin is also perhaps the most committed activist celebrity who's been speaking out 19 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:09,160 against war, injustice, homelessness, nuclear weapons, and advocating for justice, disarmament, 20 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:15,480 and peace for many, many, many decades. Hello, Martin, and welcome to my Nonviolent Jesus 21 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:16,480 podcast. 22 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,680 Hi, thank you so much, John. Thank you for that beautiful prayer and introduction. I'm 23 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:22,920 delighted to be with you. 24 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:28,320 Oh, thank you. Well, you know, I want to talk first about the nonviolent Jesus and in particular 25 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,980 the phrase because you helped me, and full disclosure, Martin and I have been friends 26 00:02:32,980 --> 00:02:39,320 for over 40 years. You helped me over the decades to realize how important that phrase 27 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:46,920 is in this world of violence and permanent war. You were at my first mass in 1993 at 28 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:51,480 an inner-city parish in Washington, DC where I spoke of the nonviolent Jesus, but you've 29 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,280 been reminding me about that over the years. And now I refer to Jesus that way all the 30 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,560 time. And I'm trying to help... 31 00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,560 Oh, so it's my fault. 32 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:00,560 Yeah. 33 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:06,440 This is what I'll tell the Pope. So what do you think about it? Tell me about it. 34 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:13,120 Well, you know, the very first time I heard the phrase was at that mass at St. Aloysius 35 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:18,520 down in the basement, your very first mass as an ordained priest. And you came in and 36 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,920 gave the blessing, many a grace and peace of God our Father, the fellowship of the Holy 37 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:29,200 Spirit and the love of the nonviolent Jesus be with all of you. And the place erupted. 38 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:36,160 Normally, the congregation would say also with you, but they just said, welcome. And 39 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:45,000 I think that the powers that be heard the echo from that little assembly that morning, 40 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:54,520 that Sunday morning, and it has gone worldwide. I had never heard the phrase before, the nonviolent 41 00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:02,720 Jesus. I was raised Catholic and was an altar boy back in the Latin days before Vatican 42 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:10,720 II. And I've come through the church all these decades, and the only person besides you and 43 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:18,440 Dan Berrigan and some of the peace people have used that phrase. And it has become the 44 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:27,360 only way that we can address our brother Jesus, the nonviolent Jesus. It makes all the difference 45 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:28,360 in the world. 46 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:35,960 I think so too, because everybody in the world thinks Jesus is violent. So Truman said, well, 47 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:42,240 no, really, Jesus was violent in the temple, so I could drop the bomb on Hiroshima. But 48 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,920 the thing, he was nonviolent. He was even more nonviolent than Gandhi, Dorothy Day, 49 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:48,920 and Dr. King. 50 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Don't you think? 51 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:56,960 Well, of course, and all of them were inspired by his teachings, his life. I mean, if you 52 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:02,540 just took his face value, he was a total failure, and he was killed before he had a chance to 53 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:10,960 realize his mission. But in fact, that was his mission. It was realized. And it was saying, 54 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:16,480 the phrase, if what we believe is not costly, we're left to question its value. 55 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,880 So, yeah, go on. 56 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:28,320 So, what is the value of our belief if it is not in accordance with this itinerant young 57 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:38,200 rabbi more than 2,000 years ago that inspired us and changed the world with what we call 58 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:43,540 Christianity today? Although one of my favorite quotes from Gandhi is, we shouldn't be too 59 00:05:43,540 --> 00:05:46,960 critical of Christianity. It's never been tried. 60 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:52,720 Well, you know, the thing about Gandhi is, if you're saying, you were sort of joking 61 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:59,600 Jesus was a complete failure, like except in this. So, Gandhi says, and then you realize, 62 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:05,920 actually, this is all that matters. To be totally nonviolent is to be human. And Gandhi 63 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:11,200 said Jesus was the greatest person of nonviolence in history, and the only people who don't 64 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,760 know that he's nonviolent are Christians. 65 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,080 Yeah, it's the absolute truth. 66 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:25,840 Really? So, tell me about you. What about Jesus and his nonviolence inspires you or 67 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,520 touches you? Why does that touch you? 68 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:35,420 Well, frankly, I've never committed to the level that you have, John, where it led me 69 00:06:35,420 --> 00:06:37,920 into prison cells for long periods of time. 70 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,960 Oh, you've done your stints here and there overnight. 71 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,360 I know, here and there. 72 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:42,360 You have a record. 73 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,520 But never the extent. I think most of the time I spent in prison was visiting you in 74 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,960 the plowshares whenever I had the occasion. 75 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,560 It was a lot of fun, by the way. Thank you for that. 76 00:06:53,560 --> 00:07:00,600 No, great blessings. And, you know, I felt part of a community that changed my life, 77 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:07,520 beginning with Dan Berrigan and all the peace people back on the East Coast. As you know, 78 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:14,960 my first arrest for civil disobedience was with you and Dan in New York City in June 79 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:23,960 of 1986. I had been inspired by Dan all the way through the horrible violent years of 80 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:34,440 the 60s. And I was deeply moved by his total commitment. He and his brother Phil reflected 81 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:43,960 Dorothy Day, who reflected the nonviolent Jesus and Gandhi and Reverend King. They all 82 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:50,100 come to mind in the same breath and for the same reason. They all gave their lives. They 83 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:57,460 actually believed in the truth of the Scriptures and the stories of the gospel. And it was 84 00:07:57,460 --> 00:08:07,200 extremely costly in their lives and in your life as well. I mean, I don't know anyone 85 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:13,400 who has paid a higher price for their nonviolent activism and following the nonviolent Jesus. 86 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,200 So you're all an inspiration to me. 87 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:23,240 But Dan said something particularly interesting back in the day before he began his prison 88 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,920 term, he was having a conference with people and he was saying that we had to fill the 89 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:34,640 jails if we were going to end this war in Vietnam. And someone in the crowd says, oh, 90 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:40,040 that's all well and good for you, Father Berrigan. You can go to jail. You have no children. 91 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,960 What about us? What's going to happen to our children if we go to jail? And Dan said, what's 92 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:52,040 going to happen to them if you don't? And that goes right to the heart of it. You know, 93 00:08:52,040 --> 00:09:03,960 that we, you know, that our good deeds as well as our unconscious deeds affect our children, 94 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:11,040 our grandchildren. They affect the depth of the community in ways that are, you know, 95 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,680 you can't, they're unspeakable. We can't, you know, why aren't we in prison? Why aren't 96 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:21,800 we speaking out against all war all the time with our lives? And the bottom line is it's 97 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:27,000 going to cost you. If that's what you really believe, it's going to cost you. And if it's 98 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:33,560 not costing you anything, you have to question, you know, does it have any value what I believe? 99 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:39,200 So that's what's at stake. And it's a never ending war around the world that we have to 100 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:47,580 face. We don't have to look far from Ukraine and, you know, the Gaza and the West Bank 101 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:56,800 and all over the Mideast now, you know, it's very tenuous. And we're still at that point 102 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,920 of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. And as Gandhi said, we'll all end up blind 103 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:03,920 and toothless if we continue. 104 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:10,200 Yeah. Well, you had mentioned Dan, our friend, Father Daniel Berrigan, his brother, Philip 105 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:17,000 Berrigan. And so you first got arrested with Dan in the mid-80s, and now you've been arrested 106 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:23,800 about 60 times, which is amazing and rare for any person, much less a well-known beloved 107 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,280 actor that you are. No, seriously. 108 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,080 I was halfway through with my life. 109 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,920 And what happened? Where did you go wrong? 110 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,640 Before I finally got arrested, you know, mind you, I've been arrested for other things that 111 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:39,640 I've done wrong. 112 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,680 Oh, no, I didn't know that. Let's not talk about that. You know, there's... 113 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:48,480 Well, I'm always arrested under my real name because I can't identify myself officially 114 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,440 other than my real name, Ramon Estevez. 115 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:57,240 Dr. King said there are just laws and unjust laws, Martin. We're focusing on the unjust 116 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:58,240 laws here. 117 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,240 The unjust laws 118 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,240 Defend war and nuclear weapons. 119 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:02,240 Thank you for that. 120 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Yeah. So you're okay there. We won't get into the others. No, but seriously, so you and 121 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,760 I have been arrested at the Nevada test site protesting the testing of nuclear weapons 122 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,880 in the 80s and 90s, which stopped. The Riverside Research Institute in Manhattan, where they 123 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,320 were working on post-nuclear laser beam warfare, which is where you got arrested with Dan, 124 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,220 and that stopped. The El Salvador campaign in the 90s, where we blocked the federal building 125 00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:34,440 in LA to stop US military aid to El Salvador, and it stopped. I think nonviolence is civil 126 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:40,680 disobedience in the end, in all the movements' works. What's it been like for you? What have 127 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:46,160 you learned in the School of the Americas, another campaign, in all of these experiences? 128 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,400 Or was there one in particular that was very helpful or meaningful? And especially in light 129 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,840 of the nonviolent Jesus, as Dan always said, he told me as a kid, Martin, all you have 130 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:03,280 to do is make your story fit into the story of the nonviolent Jesus. Isn't that great? 131 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,360 Yeah, yeah, it's so true. 132 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,840 So how has these civil disobedience affected you? 133 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:16,440 Well, you know, you and I were doing an interview together just a few weeks ago, and we talked 134 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:25,480 about our friendship going back, it is 40 years and more, and most of the time I see 135 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,480 you, it's on the line somewhere, being carted off and charged with something. 136 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:31,480 I know. 137 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,480 And you too. 138 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:44,240 But you know, I mentioned in that interview we did that every issue that I protested for 139 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:52,600 or against has not really changed. And I learned something from Dan very early on. He once 140 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,680 said, you know, you can't look over your shoulder and expect anyone to be following you if you're 141 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:05,240 on a nonviolent journey and you're doing it publicly. He said, you basically have to accept 142 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,880 the fact that the only one that will ever be changed is you, you know, with what you're 143 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:16,520 doing. And that I took to heart. And it meant the world to me because I knew I wasn't going 144 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:24,160 to change the world. And in fact, if I changed myself, that was as good a reason to do what 145 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:29,880 I was doing. And so I followed that. And I don't know, you know, you mentioned the war 146 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:38,320 in El Salvador and the Star Wars initiative that Reagan was proposing that we helped to 147 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,640 end the research on that in New York. But still we're making nuclear weapons and we're 148 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:50,760 still, you know, talking about how to control the world through our satellites and, you 149 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:59,480 know, our bases all over the world. And so, you know, we are engaged by my just being 150 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:05,080 citizens of this great nation. It is a great nation. I remember, John, you know, so often 151 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:12,040 we'd be arrested at at the federal institute, whether it's the Pentagon or the White House 152 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,940 or Congress or whatever. And the first question you would be asked while you were in custody 153 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:22,320 was do you advocate the overthrow of the United States government? Do you remember that, John, 154 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,720 how often we have to answer that? We'd always laugh and say, what are you kidding? We love 155 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:33,440 this country. We know we're drawing its wrath by drawing attention to the things that are 156 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:42,520 un-American, you know, violence and the larceny of the poor and our dependence on the false 157 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:48,240 gods of weapons and violence. But we love the country. We just took issue with some 158 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:58,200 of the of our, you know, our nation's involvement in violence and the accumulation of weapons 159 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:06,640 and the enormous expense spent on weapons and so-called security that we have we've 160 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:14,360 isolated ourselves and we're not, you know, we're not our we're not our true selves. And 161 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:21,920 it's a national disease, really. We, you know, we we we we don't trust nonviolence. We we 162 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:28,800 still have the bomb. We still we're still looking for, you know, places to place our 163 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:35,720 influence militarily with weapons. And, you know, we're putting most of them now in remote 164 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,240 areas, some of them in a large portion of them now in submarines where they can't be 165 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:47,200 located. But, you know, the point is that we live in a violent culture and yet we still 166 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:54,400 live in this extraordinary country that produces a Dan and Phil Berrigan and a, you know, Dorothy 167 00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:03,520 Day and the John Deere and all the other wonderful peace and justice advocates. And so we have 168 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:09,000 to we have to deal with that. There's another thing, you know, in our prayer life where 169 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:16,520 the old before Benedict changed the the wording in the creed before that the wording was it 170 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:23,240 was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. And one night I was at a mass in a church 171 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,720 I wasn't familiar with. And the guy behind me was saying the prayer. And here's what 172 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:33,480 he said, born of the Virgin Mary and became human. That made all the difference, John. 173 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:41,480 And it is still today, you know, I'm unable to say became man because it just, you know, 174 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:50,320 it eliminates the female but it also isolates our God, you know, our God is human. And Jesus 175 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:57,880 came, you know, like I'm just thinking of this phrase Dan sent me on a card one day, 176 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:04,360 a quote from Thomas Merton into this world, this demented in in which there is absolutely 177 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:11,760 no room for him at all. Christ comes uninvited. Yeah, that is that, you know, the nonviolent 178 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,960 Jesus comes uninvited. We don't want any part of this guy because of what he demands of 179 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:23,040 us and what that presence in us God chooses to dwell within us, whether we like it or 180 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:30,760 not, you know, it's not up to us whether we choose to recognize the presence that where 181 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:36,920 God chooses to dwell is really none of our business, you know, it's a foregone conclusion. 182 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,320 We came after the fact. We don't have any choice. 183 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:49,600 Yeah, Dan once said, you know, he came uninvited and we quickly showed him the door. We got 184 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:57,600 rid of him. And you know, for me, the whole Christmas story and incarnation is God wants 185 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,640 to be human. And yeah, but the human race wants to be God. And we have it all mixed 186 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:11,880 up. But either way to be human or to be godly is to be nonviolent. That's the bottom line. 187 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:18,480 Hey, so I wanted to ask you a question about nonviolence. I remember in the early 90s under 188 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,760 the Bush-Quail administration, and I think you were on the Murphy Brown show, which brought 189 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:29,560 in all this national talk about the Republican Party talking about family values. And I was 190 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:36,600 visiting you one day and you had made a bumper sticker. Do you remember this? And it said, 191 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,920 nonviolence is a family value. And I thought that was brilliant. Why did you do that? What 192 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:41,920 does that mean? 193 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,920 I should reprint that because... 194 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,640 Well, it's a global value. 195 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,880 What does it mean? How is nonviolence a family value and is it the ultimate value? It's such 196 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:51,880 a beautiful phrase. 197 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,320 Well, is violence a family value? 198 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,400 Apparently so in this country. 199 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:03,280 Yeah, we're getting closer to embracing that, particularly with where we are in our culture 200 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:12,520 at the moment, where we are projecting the male dominance again. And this phrase, it's 201 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:19,600 reared its ugly sound in our ears, you know, Christian nationalism. What does that sound 202 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:28,480 like? You know, that's reverberating from a Nazi regime in the 1930s in Germany. You 203 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:35,640 know, Christian nationalism was what inspired Dietrich Bonhoeffer to raise his voice and 204 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,600 to call the church into account, you know. 205 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:39,600 So let me ask you... 206 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,080 Yeah, that's where we are now. 207 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,880 So nonviolence is really the bottom line value for me. Let me ask you about one of the beatitudes 208 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:53,680 about being a peacemaker. So, you know, I have this project, the Beatitudes Center, 209 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,200 and I'm talking about the beatitudes, and you and I have been so much time talking about 210 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:05,640 peace and peacemaking. But for me, the beatitudes all reach a climax in that teaching. Here 211 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:11,160 it is, blessed are the peacemakers, they will be called the sons and daughters of the God 212 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:18,560 of peace. And to me, that's just it. That's everything. But you know, it's so shocking 213 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,760 as a kid, I couldn't figure out who I was. What does it mean to use your phrase, to be 214 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:29,400 human? And the country, the culture of violence war is always saying, I'll tell you what it 215 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,040 is, you're an American, or you want to be all you can be, be a Marine. And Jesus comes 216 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:40,000 along and says, you are the beloved son, the beloved daughter of the God of peace, and 217 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,800 therefore you go and make peace, you're a peacemaker. So, tell me, what does that mean 218 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:50,160 for you? How are, have you seen your life as a peacemaker? And what advice do you have 219 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,080 to people, especially young people, for becoming peacemakers? 220 00:20:54,080 --> 00:21:05,960 Well, you know, it's a deeply personal question, and it's a deeply personal responsibility 221 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:13,040 that I certainly have not conquered it. I'm 84 years old, and I still deal with my anger 222 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:24,840 and my righteousness and my cheering on when, you know, there's, when the Ukrainians strike 223 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:32,140 the Russians at a particular spot and seem to be winning that war, or at least holding 224 00:21:32,140 --> 00:21:39,760 them off. And so, and I find myself in the West Bank and in Gaza and in Lebanon and so 225 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:45,640 many other countries that are not getting the worldwide attention that are at war, that 226 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:52,660 are at conflict, that violence is the norm. And so I still, I still have to look in my 227 00:21:52,660 --> 00:21:59,680 heart, my soul, I see my anger and my violence reflected in my children and grandchildren 228 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:08,080 and great grandchildren. And so that, you know, it's an ongoing daily grace of remembrance 229 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:13,360 of who I really am. Like you said that the other day, John, I thought that was very, 230 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:19,280 very insightful that when we remember who we really are, we become more human and less 231 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:26,080 violent, and we're more inclined to live the gospel of the nonviolent Jesus. But it's a 232 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:33,440 deeply personal thing. And I had so many decades where, you know, I supported violence. I was 233 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:40,520 violent. I did violence. I thought violence. I felt violence and envy and retribution and 234 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:48,440 vengeance and hatred and all of the, the, the pronouns of violence I, I inhabited in 235 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,440 the depths of my being and my spirit. So it's a lifelong journey. I'm still at it. I haven't 236 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:59,840 had any luck yet. No, no, that's, we're all like that. And let me ask you, did it work? 237 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:06,640 Did it make you feel good? It doesn't work, does it? No violence? It doesn't work? 238 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:17,680 It is a good, you know, we become acquainted, you know, when we receive the sacraments, 239 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,840 particularly the Eucharist, you know, and we, we, it isn't a representation in our belief, 240 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:31,280 in our dogma with Catholicism. It's the real deal. So we're dealing in a deeply personal way 241 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:38,160 with, with the, the God who creates us, who breathes us, who loves us endlessly. And, 242 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:45,760 and we, we bring all of our total selves, all of the, the things that, you know, it's like I lift 243 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:52,000 up at the offertory, I lift up all those that I was given to love and I, and I, and I give a prayer 244 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,200 of gratitude and praise. And then when the cup is lifted, I say, and I lift up all those you gave me 245 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,400 to love that I refuse to love. They're known to me as well as you. Do you know what I'm saying? 246 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,720 So that we, even in our family relationships, there are people in, you know, in our, 247 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:17,040 on our immediate sphere that we do not embrace. So how can we expect to embrace, you know, 248 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,280 someone and, you know, in a bomb making factory or someone who's dropping them or someone who's 249 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:30,000 firing them? How, you know, how, how do we, it's a different grace that we have to embrace. And it's, 250 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:36,560 and it's deeply personal. It's a journey. I don't, it is a journey. Yeah. And I don't have any, 251 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:42,160 I don't have any advice to give anyone except to just continue. 252 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,280 That's good. 253 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:50,080 To stay in touch with that deeply personal nonviolent Jesus. Because if it's not personal, 254 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,800 if Jesus is not personal, He's impersonal to us. And if He's impersonal… 255 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,760 You know, I was going to ask you about that. Let me ask you, because you said that at Philip 256 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,280 Berrigan's funeral, it was amazing. We remember we were marching and it was a cold rainy day 257 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,160 following the casket and there were thousands of us and we were going to the funeral. And Amy 258 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,160 Goodman of Democracy Now was interviewing you and I was standing next to you. And you said, 259 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:20,400 so what did you think about Philip Berrigan, who spent, by the way, folks, 11 years of his life in 260 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:26,320 prison for protesting war? And you said, without missing a beat to Amy Goodman, well, Phil took 261 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:32,880 the gospel personally. I never heard anybody say that before. And it's so obvious. That's what 262 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,960 you're just saying again now. Do you agree still? You think that? 263 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:43,200 Yeah. Yeah. I think if we don't take it personal, it's impersonal. And if it's impersonal, so what? 264 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,240 You know, who cares? 265 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:50,720 So, these are teachings to practice personally, to be peacemakers and to try to be people of 266 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,120 universal love and nonviolence. Well, I got to ask you about the movies though, because you're… 267 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,080 Okay, so I will look you up. 268 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,680 Oh dear. 269 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:08,480 It's rough, man. So, you were, I'm going to mention name dropping four movies. You 270 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:15,360 starred in one of the biggest war movies ever, Apocalypse Now, with the great Marlon Brando, 271 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:21,680 your friend. And then you were in the greatest movie, hands down, about a peacemaker ever, 272 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,880 Gandhi, where you played the reporter. You also were in the only movie about Dorothy Day, 273 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,600 called Entertaining Angels, where you played Peter Moran, the co-founder of the Catholic Worker. 274 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,840 And you're in the only movie, major movie about Dr. King, called Selma, where you played the judge, 275 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,080 who lifted the injunction and allowed the march to proceed. So, here we're talking 276 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,800 movies about war, but also the greatest peacemakers, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, 277 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,280 and Dorothy Day. What did you, just tell me a little bit about what you might have learned 278 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:59,440 from all of that, the war movie and the peacemaker's movies about your own journey of peace and non-violence? 279 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,120 I know that's a ridiculous big question, but maybe one or two things. 280 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:08,960 You know what's interesting, you mentioned Apocalypse Now. That had a profound effect on me. 281 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:18,960 And, you know, because I felt that I had exposed my brokenness, you know, my vulnerability, 282 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:30,160 my insecurity so flagrantly on film, you know, and I had to account for that in my own spirit. 283 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:40,160 But that film had a profound effect on a lot of young men. And it went two ways. It was a two-edged 284 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:47,280 sword, because an equal number of young men told me that that picture inspired them to join the 285 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:55,200 military, and an equal number told me that they were inspired to reject the military, to reject 286 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:02,320 violence. And so, you know, it's a personal responsibility that all of us have to face. 287 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:15,200 That movie, you know, led me to, on a very, very deeply personal journey, which culminated in Paris, 288 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:23,360 after, you know, I went to, I was in India for Gandhi, just for five or six weeks in 1981. And 289 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:29,280 shortly thereafter, I was in Paris doing a film, and I was alone because none of the family could 290 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:39,360 join me. It was school year, you know. And I began to examine my own spiritual life, or lack 291 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:48,480 thereof. And India had really sparked it, because you see such injustice on the poor. You know, 292 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:56,480 the country is, you can't turn right, left, or in front or behind you, on top of you, everywhere. 293 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:03,600 The poverty is so overwhelming, and the poor are so horribly crushed by poverty. I remember Gandhi's 294 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,120 quote, where he said, when he had to make a decision, he conjured up the most dire 295 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,440 person he could remember, and he made his decision based on whether it would help or 296 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:23,440 hinder that person, that image. And that resonated with me also. What decision was I making for the 297 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:30,880 wretched soul that I had become? And so, I returned to the Catholic faith in Paris on May 1st, 298 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:38,240 1981. It was a long journey, and it was the happiest day of my life. I didn't come back to 299 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:48,480 the church that I had left, which was fear and, you know, angst about being caught in mortal sin 300 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,320 and being condemned to hell should I die in such a state. But I came back to the church of Dan 301 00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:01,440 Berrigan and Mother Teresa and Dorothy Day, the church of service, the church of nonviolence, 302 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:08,960 the church that serves the world to its human needs, which is equal to its spiritual needs. 303 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,880 We can't really accept one without the other. You know, the phrase I use is, 304 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,520 we have to find a way to unite the will of the spirit to the work of the flesh. 305 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,480 And that, to me, is peacemaking. That, to me, is my way of doing things. 306 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:29,440 That, to me, is my real Catholic faith. That is where I meet the God of nonviolence. That is 307 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:38,240 where it gets real personal for me, is that effort to unite the will of the spirit to the work of the 308 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:47,440 flesh. And when you find that, you know, the saying is, like Théodice Donne said, when we find out how 309 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:55,760 deeply we are loved, we have discovered fire for the second time. And I use that phrase in trying 310 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:03,040 to inspire people when I speak publicly about the journey that we're all called to. And that is to, 311 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:10,240 we're challenged to find something in our lives worth fighting for, something deeply personal 312 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:15,200 and uncompromising, something that unites the will of the spirit to the work of the flesh. 313 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,560 And when we find that, we have discovered fire for the second time. 314 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,840 Well, thank you, Martin. Well, that's a good note to wrap it up on in you speaking. 315 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:26,880 Oh, I'm not done yet, John. 316 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,680 Oh, well, we'll have to come back someday. 317 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:37,600 You and I talked before, and I thought I might share Dan's poem, if I may. 318 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,480 Yeah. Is this the Apologies poem? 319 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:41,040 Yeah. 320 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:48,400 So, this is from 1968, the day he did the Catonsville Nine action where they burned 321 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:54,880 draft files with homemade napalm and spent face six or seven years in prison. This is the statement, 322 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,680 I think, that you're going to read. And then I want to ask you about Tagore. 323 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:05,280 Okay. So, this is from Dan Berrigan, and it's from his book Night Flight to Hanoi. 324 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:11,920 Our apologies, good friends, for the fracture of good order, the burning of paper instead of 325 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:17,920 children, the angering of the orderlies in the front parlor of the Channel House. We could not, 326 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:24,960 so help us God do otherwise. We say killing is disorder. Life and gentleness and community 327 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,000 and unselfishness is the only order we recognize. For the sake of that order, 328 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,080 we risk our liberty, our good name. The time has passed when good people can remain silent, 329 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:42,720 when obedience can segregate people from public risk, when the poor can die without defense. 330 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,640 We ask our fellow Christians to consider in their hearts a question that has tortured us night and 331 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:56,320 day since the war began. How many must die before our voices are heard? How many must be tortured, 332 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:03,760 dislocated, starved, maddened? How long must the world's resources be raped in the service of 333 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:10,560 legalized murder? When and at what point will we say no to this war? 334 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,200 Tom Hanks Wow, Martin, that is so powerful. 335 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,440 Thank you for reading it. 336 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,520 Martin Luther Well, that's Dan. His voice is still very, 337 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,240 very much alive in our spirit. Yeah. 338 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,520 Tom Hanks Well, one of the things when you give public lectures for all these years, 339 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:33,200 you always end with the beautiful poem, I Tagore, and I thought it would be lovely if you ended with 340 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:39,920 that and then I'll wrap it up and then we'll stay on a minute. But would you mind giving us that 341 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,080 final blessing? Martin Luther Sure, I'm delighted. I learned this 342 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:49,600 poem while I was in India doing Gandhi. And it was taught to me by a fellow actor, 343 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,040 Rascal Lee Brown. May he rest in peace. The poem is by Tagore. 344 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:08,320 And I liken it to my own country. So I preface it. We are called to that place where the heart is 345 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,160 without fear and the head is held high, where knowledge is free, where the world has not been 346 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:21,040 broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls, where words come out from the depths of truth, 347 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:28,000 and tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection, where the clear stream of reason has 348 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:35,360 not lost its way into the dreary desert sands of dead habit, where the mind is led forward by thee 349 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:44,560 into ever-widening thought and action into that heaven of freedom, dear Father, let our country 350 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:51,360 awake. Amen. John Deere Amen. Well, wow. Thank you so much, 351 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:57,680 Martin Sheen, for speaking with me today. Martin Sheen Thank you so much, John Deere. I adore you 352 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,640 and I'm inspired by you every day of my life. John Deere Thanks, dear friend. Thank you, 353 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,720 friends, for listening to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear more podcasts and find other 354 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:17,760 upcoming Zoom programs at www.piatitudescenter.org. And there you can offer any comments and feedback 355 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:24,720 and make a donation to support this free work. Join me next week on the Dr. King holiday when 356 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:31,280 my guest will be Dr. Bernard Lafayette, one of the leaders and heroes of the Civil Rights Movement 357 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:37,360 from Nashville to Birmingham to Selma to Memphis, who is also Dr. King's assistant, 358 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,600 as we celebrate Dr. King's 100th birthday. May the God of Peace bless everyone. Keep on 359 00:35:43,600 --> 00:36:02,480 following the Nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.