1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:16,800 Hi everyone, and welcome back to For the Curious and Confused, a podcast for people who want 2 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,280 to understand different perspectives of the world through the people who inhabit it. 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,480 I'm your host Don McTaggart, and today I'm joined by Bob Dana, a physicist, engineer, 4 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,600 naval officer, consultant, and author. 5 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,480 Bob holds master's degrees in physics and engineering and started his career in the 6 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:35,120 U.S. Navy's nuclear reactor program. 7 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,800 He later moved into the field of consulting, where he held many senior positions among 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,160 an impressive collection of companies for 45 years. 9 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:46,440 He also served as a member of the Dean's Advisory Board for the University of Central Florida's 10 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,040 Business School from 2014 to 2022. 11 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,100 Bob recently published a memoir called My Curious Life. 12 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:58,160 If my grandkids ask me about this, tell them this, where he details his collection of stories 13 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,240 and hard-earned insights. 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,720 A quote from Bob's website says that, curiosity propels you to places you never knew you could 15 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:05,720 reach. 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,200 So Bob, thank you for sharing your time today, and I'm looking forward to learning more about 17 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,360 how your curiosity has propelled you. 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:12,440 Great. 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,640 Thank you so much for the opportunity to join you, Don, in this conversation. 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,080 Really looking forward to it. 21 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:20,320 For sure, me too. 22 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:25,120 So starting off, could you give us a bit of a quick two-minute elevator pitch of who is 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Bob Dana and what motivates him? 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:28,520 Sure. 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:36,200 Actually, I kind of was born in Brooklyn, grew up on Long Island, and then have spent 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:42,000 a kind of a lifetime kind of bouncing around, living throughout the US, but then traveling 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,400 worldwide for a number of companies and then also personally. 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:57,480 And so it's been about 50 years since graduating with my master's in physics from Hunter College. 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:04,120 I had City University in New York and just retired the beginning of last year. 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:11,160 And my definition of retirement is I no longer take any compensation for anything I do. 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:19,560 So no longer can hold me accountable for milestones and deliverables and calls at five o'clock 32 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,920 in the morning with Europe or anything else. 33 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:26,160 So I make the call on what I'm going to do and who I'm going to do it for. 34 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:31,120 And it's all kind of based on my own personal interest. 35 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:38,280 So what I'm doing now of significance is I was asked to join the Global Curiosity Institute 36 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:44,440 out of Belgium about now seven months ago or so. 37 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,520 And I'm a fellow there. 38 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:53,320 And just to kind of set a theme for today, it's all around curiosity and what actually 39 00:02:53,320 --> 00:03:00,600 motivates individuals to be curious and then how does curiosity materially contribute to 40 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,400 both personal and professional and business success. 41 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,640 And so the Global Curiosity Institute is, if you can check it out, it's really interesting. 42 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:17,720 They have a diagnostic and then they focus on individuals' curiosity about the world, 43 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,560 about other people and about themselves. 44 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,100 And if you start kind of thinking about curiosity and then compartmentalize it around those 45 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:32,320 three things, it really starts to help you understand how that can contribute to you 46 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:33,680 starting to make decisions. 47 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,680 So that's kind of about me. 48 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,480 I mean, that's where I am right now. 49 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,960 And one of the things that is a major theme over the last year and for the rest of my 50 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,200 life will be give back. 51 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,720 And so one of the things that I'm doing is spending a lot of time with Gen Zers. 52 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:56,080 And so, and I'll mention a couple of things that I am doing, but mentoring, helping individuals 53 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:03,240 with their own initiatives and then providing as much as I can in terms of helping the Gen 54 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:10,320 Z individuals be successful and help them with some of the decisions and give them feedback 55 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:17,040 and provide them support is my kind of mission in life for as much as I've got left. 56 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,920 Well, as a Gen Zer, I hope that I can speak for all of us in saying that we appreciate 57 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,440 your efforts here and to dig in a little bit to the first theme or the main theme you talked 58 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:26,440 about of curiosity. 59 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,680 How can we foster curiosity in ourselves? 60 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,240 And then how can we also encourage it in other people? 61 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:40,560 Yeah, I think one of the big things about curiosity is to be open-minded and really 62 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:46,280 embrace the idea that you don't know everything. 63 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:55,400 And you may have been raised one way or another, been kind of exposed to a certain set of values 64 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:02,800 and principles, et cetera, but by being kind of open-minded and especially dedicated to 65 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,280 exploring the world. 66 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:08,640 Everybody kind of lives in their own little world, but the world is a big place. 67 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:16,560 And so in terms of being curious, if you want to know more about the world and the people 68 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,640 in the world and the cultures in the world and what drives individuals around the world, 69 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,240 we have so many things in common, but as you start to look at all the nuances and the like, 70 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:32,480 it really is very interesting and it drives a lot of who I am plus. 71 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,280 And then just the curiosity about other people. 72 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:37,760 Why do they think the way they think? 73 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:45,880 And specifically, how does that kind of shape the way that you need to communicate and explore 74 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,400 and what options you have available in working with other people? 75 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,800 And then finally, self-reflection, curiosity about yourself. 76 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,480 Because I think the big thing that a lot of people don't do is reflect. 77 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:03,840 I reflect on what they're doing, what their past history has been, what their relationships 78 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:04,840 are. 79 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:07,240 I mean, all of those kinds of things I think are incredibly important. 80 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:15,280 So if you start to compartmentalize and think in maybe those three different elements, it 81 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:23,320 really starts to give you a basis for thinking more curiously. 82 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,200 The other thing I will give you is a little maybe to do, and that is if you actually go 83 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,800 to the Global Curiosity Institute, you'll see me as one of the fellows, but there's 84 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:39,160 a free diagnostic, and you can actually take a diagnostic on the Global Curiosity Institute's 85 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:40,160 website. 86 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,160 It's free. 87 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,800 And then it's a great diagnostic. 88 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:49,920 It will give you a report and some things that you might want to consider doing in order 89 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,720 to become more curious about the world, about other people and yourself. 90 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,940 And so it is really a very nice thing to do. 91 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:06,200 And I think it adds to the way that it starts to prompt you in thinking more curiously. 92 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:07,200 Fantastic. 93 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:12,160 Yeah, the part about the curious about self-reflection part, this has already thrown me off of my 94 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,320 script of questions I have, but I'm so happy it's happening. 95 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,320 So this is great. 96 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,280 I'm just going to skip to one that I had later on. 97 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,240 So in terms of how we think about becoming the best version of ourselves, kind of in 98 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:27,080 quotes, how do we balance kind of a constructive self-criticism, but also with the need for 99 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,320 self-compassion, and how does that fit in with being curious about self-reflection? 100 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:39,040 Yeah, I think we have to kind of probably watch about being too self-critical. 101 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:46,760 So I think you're always kind of working, hopefully, on the best version of yourself. 102 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:55,640 And so I think the thing in terms of reflection is probably reflection about where I am in 103 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,800 my life, my relationships, kind of the journey. 104 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:07,280 I always think of life, and especially now a 73-year-old guy, I think about the journey 105 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,360 that I've taken and the journey, even more important, that all of you, the Gen Zers, 106 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,720 are going to be entering into because most of you are going to live to 100 or more years 107 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:18,720 old. 108 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,440 So that's a long journey. 109 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,200 And the more self-reflection you can have about, so where am I? 110 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,920 Where do I want to go? 111 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,440 Do I have the relationships that I want in place? 112 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,440 How do I make those better? 113 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,600 How do I explore more? 114 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:44,400 All of those kinds of things will drive the ability to then come up with more of a strategy, 115 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,680 you know, are my values and guiding principles appropriate? 116 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:51,520 Where do I want to go in life? 117 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,960 The best thing you can do is probably guess for the next five or 10 years. 118 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:55,960 That's the best you can do. 119 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:56,960 Okay? 120 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,440 You're not going to lay out the next 50 years. 121 00:08:58,440 --> 00:08:59,840 No way on earth. 122 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:00,840 Okay? 123 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,560 So you might guess the next five or 10 years, kind of directionally. 124 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:04,560 Great. 125 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:05,560 Okay? 126 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:06,560 What kind of relationships do you have? 127 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:07,560 Do you want to make them stronger? 128 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:10,360 You know, how do you want to change those? 129 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:17,040 But you always kind of expect that the reflection will, in fact, drive you to maybe a little 130 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,640 bit more of, so what does that roadmap look like? 131 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,520 For my life, at least in the near term? 132 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,480 And then what kind of changes do I want to do? 133 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:30,640 Or what kind of things do I want to explore that I may never have considered as an option, 134 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:36,640 but now starts to become something that might be interesting in terms of the path that I'm 135 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:37,640 taking? 136 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:43,400 Yeah, there's an idea that I like about in terms of kind of what you said, we can't really 137 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,640 figure out what we want to do, definitely in the next five or 10 years, but we can kind 138 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,280 of dance around and figure out what we don't want to do by doing different experiences. 139 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,400 And so that to me feels like part of your guessing game of trying things out. 140 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:00,000 And then if we don't like it, then we can maybe do a full 180 or maybe we can do a 90 141 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,000 degree turn depending on how much we don't like it. 142 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,600 So yeah, I think that's a great thing to think about. 143 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:14,840 Yeah, one more thing, Don, because the beauty is that the experiences that you have, the 144 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,440 insights that you gain, the wisdom that you gain, the degrees that you have, I mean, all 145 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,240 of those things, nobody can take that away from you. 146 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,120 That all builds on who you are. 147 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:33,880 So the fact that I completed a bachelor's and master's in physics, I'm not a physicist 148 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,240 today, but man, I still read physics. 149 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,160 I love to look at science and what's going on. 150 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:47,000 And I'm kind of open to a lot of different ideas based on the education that I had in 151 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,480 physics and used it probably for the first maybe 10, 15 years of my career. 152 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,000 But then after that, probably never touched it other than some of the basic principles 153 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,920 that come along with a good science background. 154 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,120 So nobody can take any of that away from you. 155 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,840 So it all kind of builds who you are. 156 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,640 And so even though you might pivot to something different, you might say, well, look, I wasted 157 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,240 all of that time. 158 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,480 Absolutely not. 159 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,480 You did not waste a moment. 160 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,320 It all is who you are. 161 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:17,320 It's built you. 162 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,520 And you're going to be tapping that over and over again, whether you know it or not. 163 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:27,920 And so it's the pivot points, the kind of the things that you might want to consider 164 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:33,240 as potential changes are all going to add to you, not take anything away. 165 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,080 So I'm not one who tends to regret a lot. 166 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,600 And so I'm a no regrets type of a person. 167 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:41,600 I've done things. 168 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:42,600 I've done them. 169 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:43,600 I've done the best I can. 170 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:44,600 I've learned. 171 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,040 I've accumulated more knowledge and experience. 172 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,240 That's all great. 173 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,340 That's a great way to reframe decisions we might think of as not ideal in the moment, 174 00:11:54,340 --> 00:11:58,400 but then further on down the line can see the value they had. 175 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,160 So you mentioned physics and your background in science. 176 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,040 So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how that background in science has 177 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:12,000 translated into skills that in general contribute to your development as a general problem solver. 178 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:18,240 Yeah, that is a great question because I actually have reflected on that a number of times. 179 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:24,360 And I'm so, so grateful that I actually made the choice to go into physics at the beginning 180 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:30,440 because when and pretty much any of the hard sciences in math. 181 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,520 OK, so if in fact I consider myself a STEM guy. 182 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,800 So you know, science, technology, engineering and math. 183 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,240 And so I've been a STEM guy my entire my entire life. 184 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,600 But you know, so why does physics actually contribute? 185 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:51,300 Because I think that that, you know, physics and science, the hard sciences in general 186 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:54,520 are fact and data driven. 187 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,640 OK, you're always always skeptical. 188 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,520 OK, you're always kind of challenging. 189 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,920 Well, does that even make any sense? 190 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,480 OK, and why not? 191 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,880 And let me look for the facts, not speculation. 192 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,160 I want to look for facts. 193 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,840 I want to look at data. 194 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,480 Data is everything. 195 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:20,240 If you have data driving any business decision, any even life decision that you can tap to 196 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,240 actually help you with that, that's a big plus up. 197 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,240 That's all physics. 198 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,200 It has to be logical and rational. 199 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:33,080 OK, yeah, emotions might come in, but emotions don't tend to come in very often in physics. 200 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:40,440 And so I tend to be generally one who relies on on logic and rational thinking. 201 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:48,600 And then finally, I think in the sciences, I think there's a very, very high level of 202 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,600 integrity. 203 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:58,440 You know, integrity is something that that I don't think in general is ever compromised 204 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,640 by a real scientist. 205 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:07,360 You know, and so when you when you're thinking about being a scientist, working in a scientific 206 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,880 field, integrity is everything. 207 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,680 And engineering, I mean, you don't build a bridge and think you're going to compromise 208 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,960 your integrity and kind of, I will just cut a corner over here. 209 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,400 No, no, no, you're not going to you're not going to do that. 210 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:29,520 And so so again, science, engineering all drives to an incredible focus on integrity 211 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,240 and not ever compromising integrity. 212 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,140 When you think of all of those things and then how do I take that into consulting? 213 00:14:37,140 --> 00:14:39,760 How do I take that into business leadership? 214 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:45,520 Yeah, if I can actually take all of that stuff into any of those other areas, management 215 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:54,640 consulting, I'm going to be successful because that is the underpinning of a great consultant, 216 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,600 an engineering consultant or great management consultant or a great leader. 217 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,320 OK, because if you if in fact you take all of those things into those other other areas, 218 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:11,640 you'll you'll you'll be recognized as a as a as a fabulous consultant or leader or the 219 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,960 like. 220 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,120 When you look back over your career and are implementing these logical rational kind of 221 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,360 scientific background approaches. 222 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:25,280 And then we talked earlier about open mindedness and curiosity, is there any tension between 223 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:31,480 those two ideas in your head of being logical and rational and skeptical while also being 224 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,700 open minded and curious? 225 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:39,040 How do those manifest as any sort of tension? 226 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:40,360 That's a great question. 227 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:46,640 I'm not sure there's there there is that much tension between those two. 228 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,480 I think they're really complementary. 229 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:57,840 I think if in fact, you know, you are curious, but you know, the quote, you know, curiosity 230 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,640 killed the cat. 231 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:06,000 You know, but OK, you know, you may or may not know the next part of that, you know, 232 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,640 but satisfaction brought him back or brought it back. 233 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:17,560 So it's curiosity drives you to gain more knowledge. 234 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,720 And now with that greater knowledge, you have greater satisfaction. 235 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:29,420 OK, and that drives you continuing on with your life. 236 00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:35,160 And so take a look at the whole quote, because the whole quote is really not what most people 237 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,160 think. 238 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,760 OK, it's like, well, curiosity killed the cat. 239 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:38,760 So I really shouldn't be curious. 240 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,160 Well, no, just the opposite. 241 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:45,480 OK, you need to be curious because curiosity is going to drive that additional accumulation 242 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,040 of knowledge and give you that bigger base. 243 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:54,920 OK, for you now to be, you know, again, more logical and more skeptical, because now you're 244 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,480 now not relying on just some some vapor. 245 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:04,240 OK, you're actually relying on something that has substantial basis in fact. 246 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,200 OK, and data, et cetera. 247 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:12,400 So all of it is linked together really in terms of the way that I think of it. 248 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,400 And I think most people who spend some time thinking about this whole kind of linkage 249 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,600 between curiosity and all of the other elements are is truly complementary. 250 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:24,600 I totally agree. 251 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,200 I just want to play Dylan's advocate for a little bit. 252 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,240 Yeah, the quote of the devil away. 253 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,240 Devil away. 254 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:30,240 I love it. 255 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,240 That's a great question. 256 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,120 Yeah, that's the first time I've heard the rest of that quote. 257 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:38,160 The curiosity killed the satisfaction bottom back. 258 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:39,520 That was the last part of that. 259 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:40,520 Yeah, OK. 260 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,720 That also reminds me of the other one of Jack of all trades, master of none. 261 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,160 That's the one that people sort of hear. 262 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,240 But the rest of that one is but oftentimes better than a master of one. 263 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,240 I like that one a lot. 264 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,240 That one kind of reminds me of the. 265 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,240 I could quote that one too. 266 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,240 Absolutely. 267 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:03,840 Because most people just look at the very first part and they go, I know, yeah, I'm 268 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:04,840 not going to do anything. 269 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,760 It's a it's a it's a reason for you doing nothing. 270 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:14,640 And it's just just the opposite in terms of what those quotes actually are trying to drive. 271 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,440 Yeah, perfect. 272 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,440 Yes. 273 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:22,640 So getting into the consulting bit a little bit and we think about personality types, 274 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,640 when you think about what kind of personalities thrive in sort of the high level consulting 275 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,880 that you are engaged with versus what kind of personality struggle a little bit more, 276 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,600 what stands out for you? 277 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Yeah, that's that's an interesting thing. 278 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,600 Well, I'm going to say one thing first. 279 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:38,600 OK. 280 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:44,320 And that is all personality types in consulting can thrive. 281 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,200 Yeah, they are all it's nuanced. 282 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,200 Right. 283 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,440 Because we always have teams. 284 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:56,760 So really, you know, people kind of look at individual strengths and weaknesses on a team. 285 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,160 You know, what are you bringing to the team? 286 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,400 How do you actually take advantage of all of that? 287 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,480 Well, all of that does drive to different personalities. 288 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:10,480 I am you know what Myers Briggs is. 289 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:19,160 You know, I am an ENTJ, which is, you know, extrovert, intuitive, the thinking and then 290 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,560 judgmental, but not in a judgmental way that most people think about judgmental. 291 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:31,720 But I am ENTJ, which is is is, you know, probably it's only like two percent of us out there. 292 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:38,880 But it's it's you know, dealing with me is not always not always pleasant. 293 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:49,200 And I know my life partner and partner in brain and in body is Lacey Lowe. 294 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:55,920 And funny that she is an ENTJ, too. 295 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:01,720 And so we did we do a lot of stuff together and have been been both working together and 296 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,520 then being together for quite a while. 297 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:12,240 And so our our interactions tend to be fiery in general because we're both both very, very 298 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,400 strong and like I said, a two percenter. 299 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,960 But you look at all of the others that that are, you know, introverted. 300 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,360 OK, well, you know, introverts and extroverts, you know, can interact very well and work 301 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,360 very well. 302 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:27,880 But you have to actually understand that. 303 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:34,280 So one of the big things that I've done for literally my entire career is, number one, 304 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,680 really rely on knowing everybody's personality. 305 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,720 So what is everybody's personality? 306 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,080 And then look at look at how they interact with one another. 307 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,760 Because, you know, a lot of times if you have very different personalities, you're going 308 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,400 to speak across one another. 309 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:56,720 You're not going to be able to actually understand what you're and then one dominates, one doesn't 310 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,400 have a million things that go on. 311 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:06,120 And so being able to just say, well, all of these personalities can in fact thrive. 312 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:07,960 They might have different roles. 313 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,440 They might have different expectations of success. 314 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,960 They might have different ways that they get satisfaction out of the job. 315 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,280 It's really, really, really important to understand that. 316 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,240 And so as you're putting the teams together, you're looking at the different personalities, 317 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,200 you're looking for what what's going to give satisfaction to all of the individuals. 318 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,720 What are the expectations of success for these different individuals? 319 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:33,720 It all works. 320 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,600 I'll give you one additional example. 321 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,880 And that is, and you probably don't don't have this because it's kind of internal to 322 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,440 Deloitte, but Deloitte Consulting does what they call business chemistry. 323 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:50,720 Again, it's a personality and then they chart everyone in terms of all of these different 324 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,440 personality traits against everybody else's and then understand how they communicate and 325 00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:01,520 actually produce a card, do workshops, get everybody working together. 326 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,140 And it's an outstanding, outstanding effort. 327 00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:08,800 But to say, well, ENTJs are going to be the ones that are going to be successful in leaders. 328 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,000 Well, you can go on and Google who is an ENTJ. 329 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,320 And there's some obvious leaders. 330 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,920 But if you look at some of the other leadership traits in terms of personalities, you'll find 331 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:22,920 them too. 332 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:30,380 So anyway, it's a long answer to a short question, but hopefully that kind of gives you the way 333 00:22:30,380 --> 00:22:31,380 I feel at least. 334 00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:32,380 Yeah. 335 00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:33,380 Thank you for expanding on that. 336 00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:37,240 So the thing that popped in my head is the everybody being a puzzle piece for a part 337 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,280 of the team and you described yourself as kind of fiery to an extent. 338 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:46,960 What were areas where you were working with a team where there were some maybe not necessarily 339 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,040 weaknesses in yourself, but something that somebody else in the team had more strength 340 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:58,080 in and could help supplement whatever part of your personality was not needing whatever 341 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,080 was needed? 342 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:00,080 Perfect, perfect question. 343 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,080 OK. 344 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,320 Number one is I'll give you two different elements. 345 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:11,240 So one, ENTJs can, I mean, they're very strong in terms of their opinions. 346 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:18,620 They think that they actually have the answer and they will tend in many cases to dominate 347 00:23:18,620 --> 00:23:19,620 a group. 348 00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:24,360 So I figured that out in myself probably 30 years ago. 349 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:30,000 And a lot of what I've had to do is because it's always a balancing act between personality 350 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,840 and attitude. 351 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:38,000 And so I've had to adjust my attitude to make sure that when I'm thinking my personality 352 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:48,400 is becoming Dr. Hyde, I mean, no, Hyde, Mr. Hyde, OK, Vice Dr. Jekyll, I've got to have 353 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,040 my attitude start to adjust for that. 354 00:23:53,040 --> 00:24:00,960 So I'd say the one thing that absolutely positively I've had to rely on other individuals on the 355 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:08,160 team to do is I'm not a, even though I'm a physicist, a data driven guy, I'm not a detail 356 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:09,160 guy. 357 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,160 I hate detail. 358 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,160 OK. 359 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,920 If you give me, oh, the next three days you're going to be working on this spreadsheet, I 360 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:21,760 will just run out screaming like my hair was on fire. 361 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:28,800 I cannot sit and do high levels of detail. 362 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:34,240 Now that could be editing something or going through detail spreadsheets or doing whatever 363 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,160 I need to say, OK, let's cut to the bottom line. 364 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,680 So let's understand what that is. 365 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,200 And then I'll ask questions if I need more information. 366 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,760 Well, somebody's got to do all that I need more information stuff. 367 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:46,760 OK. 368 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,040 So that's a different personality that loves to do the detailed work. 369 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,680 And so as you're putting a team together, if you only had me's on the team, we probably 370 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,040 would fail. 371 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,080 So you need to put on the team those that are much more detail oriented, have personalities 372 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,960 that love doing that kind of stuff along with the kind of me's stuff. 373 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:15,280 And I think those two things are elements that pop out of this whole discussion of personality. 374 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,280 Great. 375 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,840 So when you encounter those kind of, I guess you may say a personality obstacle, something 376 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,480 that you are not really drawn to necessarily, what goes on in your head when you decide 377 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,120 if that's an opportunity for you to grow and get more in on that detail oriented thing 378 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:36,120 or it's a signal to say, you know what, this is where the balance of my personality is. 379 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,800 This is something that somebody else could go do better. 380 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,920 How do you reconcile that? 381 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:49,120 I think after the probably I'm trying to think when I really kind of started to understand 382 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,180 that myself, probably when I was 35, 40 years old. 383 00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:56,640 So probably what is that 30, 35 years ago? 384 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,680 I probably figured that out. 385 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,200 At which point it was like, well, every time I'm faced with that type of situation, I'm 386 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,840 going to look for a team, put a team together that actually has individuals who are going 387 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:15,480 to actually complement each other in driving that forward. 388 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:21,080 So I think it takes a little time for you to number one, do enough in terms of reflecting 389 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,480 on your own personality up to and including taking some of these personality tests and 390 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,600 then really understand what you love to do and what you hate to do. 391 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:39,680 And then once you start to zero in on that, then I think it becomes more of your nature 392 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,680 in terms of how you're going to approach a given problem, a given situation and really 393 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,760 kind of put that team together that makes sense. 394 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,880 So I think after you come to that realization, which like I said, for me was probably 35 395 00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:01,200 years ago, maybe more, but probably around that, I've always kind of reflected on it 396 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:08,320 and made sure that when I was given a situation that I had to address, I did not just rely 397 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,320 on myself. 398 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:16,600 I made sure that I surrounded myself with folks as part of a team or I became part of 399 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:23,320 a team that could actually get this done because of the need of all of these different aspects 400 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,640 in the team to be successful. 401 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,340 Yeah, I asked that because I've been having a little bit of internal conflict slightly 402 00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:34,040 about how to accept those limitations. 403 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,360 For your example of the spreadsheets and detail oriented, I'm realizing there are some things 404 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,800 I just really don't like doing. 405 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:45,000 And then the kind of internal model I can sometimes be, well, you should do it because 406 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,800 it's your job and then that plays into the self criticism and then that starts to impact 407 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:50,800 the confidence. 408 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:58,480 And so being able to authentically accept that something is not your strength while 409 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:04,120 also recognizing that you have things to add in other areas is something I'm on the pathway 410 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,120 of right now. 411 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:06,600 And so it's great to get insights on that. 412 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,120 And again, you're a young guy. 413 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,320 So what are you probably 26, 27, 28? 414 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:12,320 26. 415 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:13,320 There you go. 416 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,080 You're a young guy. 417 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:21,360 Another five or six or seven years, I think you'll have zeroed in on that. 418 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,080 And don't think you need to be everything. 419 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:32,440 That is probably the biggest false conception that people have. 420 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,440 Did you ever feel like you had to be everything at any point? 421 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,440 Did I? 422 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,440 No. 423 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:38,440 Okay. 424 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:44,880 I mean, my strengths were kind of early on and I was able to really hone in on those 425 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:52,000 strengths and where I knew, I knew, knew, knew that I had specific weaknesses, I made 426 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,880 sure that I had partners, team members. 427 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:03,320 I was part of a team that actually had those capabilities in other individuals to get that 428 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:04,680 done. 429 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:11,480 And so you don't get extra credit for trying to do it all, especially when you hate to 430 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,480 do something. 431 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,600 Because I'll tell you, if you really hate to do something, where does it fall on your 432 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,600 to-do list? 433 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,600 Last, exactly. 434 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,600 Way down there. 435 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:25,160 And that might be the most important thing that has to get done on that project. 436 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:34,600 And so one of the key things is, if in fact you do try to do that, you're going to fail. 437 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,720 And I don't like failure. 438 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,880 So I will make sure that I've got everything covered in terms of this. 439 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,080 And if I hate to do something, I'm getting somebody to make sure that they're part of 440 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,660 the team, that they love to do it. 441 00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:50,160 Because then it's going to be at the top of their list. 442 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,520 And then what's on the top of my list and what's on the top of their list and other 443 00:29:53,520 --> 00:30:01,040 lists, if you look at that all up on the team, yeah, exactly. 444 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,920 You can't help but be successful. 445 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:04,920 That's a great way to reframe that. 446 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,480 I'm going to be reflecting on that one after this conversation. 447 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:08,480 Okay. 448 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,200 So to shift gears a little bit, but still in the same similar vein of curiosity and 449 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,280 open-mindedness, to what extent did your willingness to embrace new tools shape your success throughout 450 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,960 your career? 451 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,320 Everything. 452 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:29,000 If I did not, I could have never, never, ever succeeded. 453 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,400 So let me just tell you where I started. 454 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,400 Okay. 455 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:42,120 I've never seen one of these things, but in the 1960s in high school and then first couple 456 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,560 years in college, I started on a slide rule. 457 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,320 So yeah, and you probably have seen it if you've gone to the Smithsonian and Washington 458 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,320 or other museums. 459 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,320 My dad has one. 460 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,320 Yeah. 461 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,320 Okay. 462 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,320 There you go. 463 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:56,320 Yeah. 464 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,320 And proud of it, I'm sure. 465 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:58,320 Oh, yeah. 466 00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,320 He loves it. 467 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,880 So yeah, you're doing calculations that are incredibly sophisticated on a piece of bamboo. 468 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,200 And so that's where I started. 469 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:13,240 I actually had the first scientific calculator, the Hewlett Packard 35 back, which would have 470 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,280 been like 1971 maybe. 471 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:24,480 Before that, everything's kind of hand calculated on a slide rule and or with kind of your pencil 472 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,440 and paper. 473 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:34,040 And so it was really, really good because I have a gut feel for mathematics that today, 474 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:40,840 I think most individuals probably like yourself or younger have no real gut feel for, you 475 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:46,840 know, I can look at something and say, but that doesn't make any sense. 476 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:52,200 Because gut feel, the mathematics is kind of in my head and I'm not just accepting what's 477 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,720 on a calculator or a computer output. 478 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:03,360 But I also then started programming using FORTRAN, which is formula translation back 479 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:04,360 in the day. 480 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,920 That was the language of science. 481 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:14,880 And then, you know, like I said, I was carrying the first scientific calculator. 482 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:23,320 I actually carried the first portable computer, the compact computer back in the, that would 483 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:31,440 have been the 80s, early 80s, evolved time and time again, you know, every single revolution. 484 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:37,320 So whether it was for business, so pagers and smartphones, not smartphones, you know, 485 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:43,680 bag phones, you know, just normal phones or the like, every evolution of technology I've 486 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,040 embraced. 487 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:55,760 So I'm carrying now an iPhone, you know, I've got the 15 Pro Max, you know, I can literally 488 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:05,760 do everything that I would ever want to do on a computer or whatever, right in my pocket. 489 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:13,360 And so if I didn't, I could not have been the engineering consultant I was in the 80s 490 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,920 and 90s and 2000s. 491 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,640 I couldn't have been the management consultant or the IT consultant because in between I 492 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:25,840 actually was focused on IT with all of the enterprise resource planning software that 493 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,440 went in place and the Y2K crisis and all of that kind of stuff. 494 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,160 I was right in the middle of all of that. 495 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,720 I couldn't have done any of that without embracing technology. 496 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:40,560 So I would say, you know, anyone who does not want to embrace technology, especially 497 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,520 today, probably going to get left behind. 498 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:50,760 Especially with AI showing up and everything else that's going on, unless you want to play, 499 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,760 you're going to be left behind. 500 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,880 Yeah, that was going to be my next question about AI. 501 00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,360 Yeah, I'm preparing a presentation now about when we can ethically decide to use AI as 502 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,520 scientists and if there is a boundary for that. 503 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,000 So first with your, you mentioned that you have an intuition for some of the mathematical 504 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,720 aspects that some of my age might not have anymore. 505 00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:14,040 How do we embrace the new technology? 506 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:21,880 Let's use AI in this case while also keeping guardrails for not losing all intuition on 507 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,960 whatever task they're performing for us. 508 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,960 Okay. 509 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:33,720 Well, I tell you the one thing that I would recommend, especially honing your skills is 510 00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:36,960 in being a skeptic. 511 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:44,920 I think that's going to be the major thing that's going to be an important trait of individuals 512 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:52,320 if they are skeptical, if they question, okay, if they don't accept just what they're seeing, 513 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:58,780 okay, I think you will be stronger in every aspect of your personal, professional and 514 00:34:58,780 --> 00:35:00,880 business life. 515 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:09,520 I think that is the key because especially with AI, it's going to take over, you're 516 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,560 going to ask a question, it's going to give you an answer and I'd say 90% of the population 517 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560 will go, thank you. 518 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:23,680 I think the ones that actually will succeed long-term will go, does that actually make 519 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:33,040 sense, okay, and sit for a moment, maybe more and actually contemplate whether or not what 520 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:39,400 you just got from AI actually makes intuitive sense. 521 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,760 If it does, okay, I'd still be skeptical but maybe kind of move to the next level. 522 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,920 If it doesn't make sense, keep asking questions and get more data and really kind of delve 523 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:58,600 into it so that you can assure yourself that what you're getting out of the technology 524 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:05,400 actually is something that you're going to kind of like bet your life, bet your business, 525 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,480 bet your career on, do you want to really do that without questioning? 526 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,480 Probably not. 527 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,880 So I think being skeptical is going to be something that's going to be curiosity is 528 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,360 one side, okay, that kind of drives you to be open-minded, etc. AI is kind of in the 529 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,200 middle, okay, these days, okay, it's going to give you a lot of information, a lot of 530 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,880 stuff, okay, and then I think on the back end, if you're skeptical and say, whoa, just 531 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:39,960 wait one moment there, let me ask a couple more questions and I think that's going to 532 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,000 be the thing that's going to really make a difference. 533 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,320 Yeah, definitely. 534 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,960 What do you think are the most important ways that AI will impact society in the coming 535 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,880 years? 536 00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:01,680 I think actually the most significant thing that's going to go on is going to be, most 537 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:09,800 people don't realize this yet, but they will very shortly, is not the benefit of AI and 538 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,080 what AI is going to do for us or, oh, the singularity is coming and they're going to 539 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:15,960 be smarter than us and whatever. 540 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,240 Actually all of that stuff is, yeah, it's interesting, but it's not really the thing 541 00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:27,240 that's going to be dislocating for the majority of the population. 542 00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:34,400 What I think is going to be dislocating is the fact that AI is going to take away, okay, 543 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:47,040 going to take over all of the entry-level journeyman type of jobs, especially the knowledge 544 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,600 working worker jobs, which is the biggest part, right? 545 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:56,160 Service industry, knowledge workers, scientists, engineers, accountants, fill in the blank, 546 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,440 doctors, nurses, lawyers. 547 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:07,480 AI is going to take over all of the jobs that were really available for the first five, 548 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,160 seven, 10 years of an individual's career. 549 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,840 All of those are going to be gone as jobs. 550 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,360 AI is going to be doing all of those. 551 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:28,400 Now the question is, how does someone getting a college degree, all of that knowledge, et 552 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,400 cetera, normally they would enter a business and then they kind of learn over the first 553 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,400 three, five, seven years kind of the business, right? 554 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,520 I mean, they'd be doing some of the grunt work, they'd be doing some of the attend 555 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,160 a few meetings through this, through that. 556 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,000 Well, AI is doing all of that now. 557 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:52,440 So now how do you jump from getting a college degree and maybe everything has to change 558 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:59,920 about college or education or high school or whatever, and jump to a point where now 559 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:04,600 you can actually make a contribution in an organization where now you probably need to 560 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:05,800 be more consultative. 561 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,420 You need to be more knowledgeable. 562 00:39:07,420 --> 00:39:10,560 You need to have wisdom experience and the like. 563 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,720 Well, you couldn't get that, right? 564 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:16,300 Those first five or seven or eight years is where you got all of that. 565 00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:21,160 But now if the machines are doing it, AI is doing it, what happens? 566 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,480 I'm not sure I'm going to live long enough to see that, but I probably will because I 567 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,400 think it's going to happen in the next five or 10 years. 568 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:35,800 If that's the case, I think that's going to be the thing that's going to be the real issue 569 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:45,760 associated with truly AI taking over all of the or getting a complete footprint in our 570 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,720 economy, in our culture and everything. 571 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:49,720 I'll stop talking. 572 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:53,400 I guess some questions, but I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. 573 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:59,160 And actually with my last few years at Deloitte, I was working on this for Deloitte. 574 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:06,760 And so it really, I think a lot of organizations are struggling with this very fact as to how 575 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:12,740 I get individuals who are highly educated, but now I'm not going to have an opportunity 576 00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:20,280 to really indoctrinate them into what this is because I don't need them to do that. 577 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,280 I've got a machine doing it. 578 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,440 I would love to unpack this more. 579 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,960 So essentially what I'm hearing you say is that it is going to remove the entry ramp 580 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,840 for whatever that job is. 581 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:37,800 That also relates to, I think what I was mentioning earlier of when we draw the line for allowing 582 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,480 AI to do scientific research either with or for us. 583 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,360 And you said that, well, we can combat that by having proper skepticism. 584 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:53,360 And in an expert field, that skepticism is kind of informed by an intuition of the field 585 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,880 that you can't really gain without going on that entry ramp that you're mentioning there. 586 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,120 And so I agree. 587 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,960 It sounds like such a potential problem where if that five to seven years or whatever time 588 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,920 period that is where we're building an intuition and understanding of the things that maybe 589 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:16,720 aren't going to make huge impacts in the field, but let you speak on it knowledgeably, we 590 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:23,240 can't have proper skepticism for what the AI is doing if we don't have that experience. 591 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,800 It's scary, isn't it, Don? 592 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,800 Yeah. 593 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:34,400 So that, I think, is the scary part, not the singularity, not all of the other stuff that 594 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,400 they talk about. 595 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:42,680 I think that's really the scary part that I think most people don't realize or are not 596 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,520 talking about or even worse, not planning for. 597 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,520 Wow. 598 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,520 Great. 599 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,520 Okay. 600 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,160 Shifting direction a little bit. 601 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,560 So moving on to some of relationship type of stuff. 602 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,440 So you went to a lot of companies, had a lot of high level positions. 603 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,360 What impacts did the demands of your career have on your relationships with your family? 604 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,760 Oh, geez. 605 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:19,600 Well, maybe I am the right person to talk about because I've been divorced twice and 606 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,000 one child, she's almost 40 now, a couple of grandkids. 607 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,120 Obviously, the book, as you mentioned. 608 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:47,920 But I did dedicate very large portions of my attention to my career and it had certainly 609 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,440 impact on the relationships. 610 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,640 And so everybody kind of talked about work-life balance and blah, blah, blah, all of that kind 611 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,200 of stuff. 612 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:05,760 It is incredibly, incredibly stressful for somebody who in fact has a job that does require 613 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:12,520 enormous amounts of your time, energy, focus, et cetera, because the one thing that will 614 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,840 always suffer is your relationships, your family. 615 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,120 And so was I successful at navigating that? 616 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,960 Probably not. 617 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:35,080 So I'm older now trying to do a better job, but still I look back on my whole life and 618 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:41,400 career and I probably could have done a better job, but then would I have done a worse job 619 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,080 with my professional career in life? 620 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:45,080 Yeah. 621 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,720 So I think it's tough. 622 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:52,200 There's not a secret sauce out there. 623 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:53,760 They'd say, well, if you did it this way. 624 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,680 I mean, plenty of people want to tell you about that. 625 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:07,720 But if in fact you do dedicate a lot of time to the work-life balance, personal life, your 626 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:16,200 family, et cetera, it will in fact impact your professional life. 627 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,400 It does. 628 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:29,080 I live, Don, my whole life I've lived with trying not to have a zero sum game, that everything 629 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,080 is win-win. 630 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:37,120 I've lived my life trying to do win-win. 631 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,880 The work-life balance is in fact a zero sum game. 632 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:52,800 It's really, really, really hard for you to both win at work and win with your life. 633 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,360 But I've done as good as I can. 634 00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:01,680 I haven't rejected one, but it's hard getting that balance right. 635 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,120 I appreciate your honesty there. 636 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,120 Yeah. 637 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,760 Because that's a hard thing to be, to perform at the highest level in any field. 638 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:14,240 You have to sacrifice other areas and yeah, that's hard. 639 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:16,800 One last probing question to that, if you're open to it. 640 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:17,800 I am totally open. 641 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,320 I am totally enjoying this conversation, Don. 642 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:21,800 I'm totally enjoying it. 643 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:22,800 You were great. 644 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,800 Thank you. 645 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:24,800 Great. 646 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,800 I'm loving this too. 647 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:26,800 Yeah. 648 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,240 So earlier you mentioned that you're a no regrets kind of guy and I wouldn't go as far 649 00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:35,440 as to say that would be like regret, but on a scale of zero to 10, where 10 is the highest 650 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,000 level of regret, zero is no regret at all. 651 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:44,080 Where would you put how you approach the work life balance aspect of that? 652 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,080 Probably a five. 653 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,080 About a five. 654 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,080 Yeah. 655 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:48,080 So yeah. 656 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:54,920 So like I said, I did the best I can with the hand that I was dealt. 657 00:45:54,920 --> 00:46:04,360 And the hand that I was dealt is I was in very, very challenging roles in the Navy and 658 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:10,880 my straight away when I went into engineering consulting and I mean, I challenging roles 659 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,400 that required an enormous amount of focus and energy. 660 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:28,040 And so I certainly tried to kind of focus on my relationships with my wife and my kid 661 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:39,520 and my friends, but I wasn't there for them 24 seven, I can guarantee that. 662 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:44,320 I don't know if anybody really can be in actuality. 663 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:45,480 So yeah. 664 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,800 So thinking about those really challenging situations in a work environment, are there 665 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:56,400 any examples you can think of that have kind of that really visceral stress sort of response 666 00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,960 to them that would give somebody who doesn't know a lot about the field of consulting to 667 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,320 kind of give them a sense of what kind of environment you're existing in, in those really 668 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,920 high level situations? 669 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:06,920 Yeah. 670 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:13,840 And especially as a young person, I'll go with the young person. 671 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:24,960 So after active duty in the Navy, I stayed on in the reserves, but I joined a consulting 672 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,720 firm and it was right after the Three Mile Island nuclear accident. 673 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:31,280 So that happened in 79. 674 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,120 I joined a consulting firm in February of 80 and that consulting firm, most of the work 675 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:45,900 they were doing was on all of the addressing of the consequences of all of the lessons 676 00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:48,400 learned from the Three Mile Island accident. 677 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:54,920 So I was using engineering, I was using my physics degrees, I was using everything. 678 00:47:54,920 --> 00:48:08,000 And so now I'm, so 1980, so I'm 28 years old. 679 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:14,880 And I'm kind of the smartest guy in the room when it comes to addressing a lot of this 680 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,560 because of my degrees, the Navy and what I did there. 681 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:25,360 And then just actually the thesis that I wrote for my master's degree in engineering was 682 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:31,760 all about this, that particular aspect of nuclear power accidents. 683 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:37,440 And then I went into a company that was focused on not only nuclear accidents and mitigation 684 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,760 of it, but also any of the high hazard accidents. 685 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:52,120 So rocket launches, rocket engine test facilities, wind tunnels, space simulators. 686 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,760 I was working on all of that stuff. 687 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,200 Again, I'm a 28, 29, 30 year old. 688 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:03,040 I actually knew the stuff better than the folks that are sitting across from me that 689 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:09,360 are 40s, 50s years old. 690 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:17,320 They kind of focused on getting whatever they were getting done in nuclear power, in NASA, 691 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,040 the Air Force space program, whatever. 692 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:27,920 But I know better than anybody the aspects of failure. 693 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,480 What happens when something fails and how do you prevent it from failing? 694 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:41,760 But now again, I'm a 28, 29, 30, 32 year old, no gray hair. 695 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:47,880 Now consulting individuals who... 696 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:54,760 My mama was still wiping my butt when they were building rockets or getting into nuclear 697 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,200 power. 698 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:01,600 And so that was probably the most stressful. 699 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:08,440 Once I turned 40 and got a little gray hair and had some additional credentials under 700 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,360 my belt, that was more accepting. 701 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:17,520 But initially, even though I knew it all, it was a little bit difficult to get accepted 702 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:26,480 as the consulting engineer and effectively scientist that I was in the field that I was. 703 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,800 But I did it. 704 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:35,440 That took incredible, incredible amount of energy and focus and study. 705 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,600 And I had to have everything right because the last thing you wanted to do is have any 706 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:47,360 of them question what you were saying and what you were recommending because we were 707 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:54,560 recommending things that were going to effectively change the way that folks were building and 708 00:50:54,560 --> 00:51:01,360 operating nuclear reactors, nuclear power plants, building and operating rocket launch 709 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:08,000 facilities, not the rockets, but everything associated to get that rocket up into the 710 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,600 air. 711 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,600 That's what I focused on. 712 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,720 And so that was not easy. 713 00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:18,840 That is not a low-stake situation at all. 714 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:19,840 No, no. 715 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:20,840 Did you ever feel burnt out? 716 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:27,000 Well, it was not an option, actually getting it right, you needed to get it right 100% 717 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,200 of the time. 718 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,200 Did you ever feel burnt out in your work life when you're doing that? 719 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,280 I don't think I ever felt burnt out. 720 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,320 Sometimes overwhelmed. 721 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:49,840 So I kind of define burnt out as you're doing something and repetitive and it's maybe kind 722 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:55,160 of getting bored with it or again, you're doing something and it's no longer really 723 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,360 interesting. 724 00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,960 I was probably often overwhelmed because I was kind of pushing myself beyond what would 725 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,840 be probably reasonable, but I never felt burnt out. 726 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,720 I never felt burnt out. 727 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:17,440 And if you're feeling overwhelmed, that's good because you can step back, kind of regroup 728 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,600 and then again, move forward. 729 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:27,400 So I think there's a nuance in there, but I think it's an important nuance when you 730 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,000 say, you know, do you feel burnt out? 731 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,240 Have you felt overwhelmed? 732 00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:33,240 Yeah, right. 733 00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:42,120 Well, if it's overwhelmed, then you should be able to address that or have a mentor or 734 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,000 somebody who can coach you through feeling overwhelmed. 735 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,160 If you're burnt out, you probably don't like your job and you probably should do something 736 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:50,160 different. 737 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:51,160 Definitely. 738 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:58,720 When we think about those really challenging moments of overwhelming this or just in general 739 00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:03,720 having done all of that, were there any internal narratives that either helped or hindered 740 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:08,240 your ability to perform the task or to grow in general? 741 00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:09,240 Yes. 742 00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:16,280 One of the other things that I did early on, and it's actually in the book and it gets 743 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:22,680 kind of reiterated in the book, is I think it's really, really important for you to get 744 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:30,000 centered around your own set of values and guiding principles. 745 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:31,760 I think that's so important. 746 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:40,160 Everybody wants to impose their values and guiding principles on you. 747 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:47,160 But ultimately, I rejected that early on, even as a teenager. 748 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:54,280 And then over my 20s, I think really honed a set of values and guiding principles. 749 00:53:54,280 --> 00:54:00,680 And like I said, it's in the book and I expand on it kind of all through the book. 750 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:07,520 But I think that's probably the most important thing to do as early as you can, is truly 751 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,440 say, so what are my core values? 752 00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:20,240 And then what principles do I always allow myself to fall back on when I am feeling overwhelmed 753 00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:34,080 or taxed in a way that I need to reflect and determine a direction based on where I'm being 754 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,080 challenged. 755 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:36,080 Great. 756 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,080 Thank you. 757 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,880 I've got two more questions for you. 758 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:46,920 How can we integrate playfulness into our routines so that our jobs or our careers don't 759 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,200 become just a purely kind of task oriented thing to do? 760 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:52,200 Yeah. 761 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:59,360 Well, and I'll go back to something I said right at the start of our conversation. 762 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,200 And it's going to go right back to curiosity. 763 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:12,400 Because I think the key is when you're interacting with folks, and this drives me insane, is 764 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:17,880 I go out to a business dinner or lunch or something like that, and we've been talking 765 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,720 about business all day. 766 00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:30,840 So what is the leader that is there or some of the other members of the team that we're 767 00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,760 going to at the lunch or dinner or breakfast with? 768 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,400 What do they want to talk about? 769 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:36,400 Business. 770 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:41,600 It's like, oh my, no, no, no. 771 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:51,400 We are now in a social setting trying to actually enjoy each other as people, as individuals. 772 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,680 So no. 773 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:59,240 And I usually stop it in terms of, no, we're going to go back and talk more business. 774 00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:02,680 Let's have a conversation. 775 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,520 And I always kind of go back to that whole concept of curiosity. 776 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:12,000 Hey, where did you travel to on vacation this past year? 777 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,440 Hey, I've been there too. 778 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,080 Did you see blah, blah, blah? 779 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:22,040 So this whole curiosity about the world and travel and other people. 780 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,360 Oh, you went to Japan? 781 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,000 What did you think about the culture when you went to Japan? 782 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:28,720 And just open up that conversation. 783 00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:34,640 And then even open up yourself, the being curious about yourself. 784 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:39,040 Like I said, even sharing some of the kind of craziness about your personality or attitude 785 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,200 or values or whatever. 786 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,880 And then just have a good laugh about it. 787 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:51,920 I mean, just sit around and enjoy each other as human beings, I think, is the key. 788 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:58,760 So as much as when you go out with folks, whether it's in a social setting, it's lunch 789 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,840 or dinner or breakfast, you're traveling together or whatever, try to avoid talking 790 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:12,160 business because if that's the case, then I think you'll be a generally unhappy person 791 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:17,760 because you'll be so immersed in business, business, business, and you'll never really 792 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:25,680 feel satisfied that you have any kind of relationship with any of the folks that you spend most 793 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:31,240 of your life with, those that are working with you. 794 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:32,440 That's the easy thing you forget sometimes. 795 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:38,480 Yeah, I'm glad that after all this talk of having really intense careers and leaning 796 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:44,040 into all of that, that at the end of the day, we're all just people who are trying to make 797 00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:45,200 it to the world best we can. 798 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,040 And yeah, business is only a one dimension of that. 799 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:49,840 So yeah. 800 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:50,840 One last question for you. 801 00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:51,840 Thank you. 802 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:52,840 This has been fantastic. 803 00:57:52,840 --> 00:58:00,600 So if you were to distill all of your experiences and insights down into a set of advice for 804 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:07,040 how individual people like you and me can, what we can do to bring about the best version 805 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:14,480 of the future they were capable of living, what would that distilled insight be? 806 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,800 Yeah. 807 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,760 We are challenged these days for sure. 808 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:36,160 I think number one is don't compromise your values, your principles, or your integrity. 809 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:44,080 It's really, really easy these days to compromise and say, ah, somebody else's problem. 810 00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,480 Ah, you know, hey, I really can't control this. 811 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:48,640 Ah, you know. 812 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:55,760 I'm just going to focus on my own little world and let everything else take its own path. 813 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,000 I think that would be a bad thing. 814 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:07,600 So especially for folks like us with kind of deep scientific and technical backgrounds, 815 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:16,880 having been trained to think logically based on data, think as a skeptic, ask questions, 816 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:25,360 use the scientific method, I think we are still the ones that people rely on ultimately 817 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:31,440 to be kind of the voice of reason. 818 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:40,440 So I think these days and probably for all the time that you got left, I think this is 819 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,540 going to be the challenge that I'll throw out to you is I think your generation is going 820 00:59:44,540 --> 00:59:51,440 to have to do what I just described, which is not going to be easy. 821 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:56,960 And especially somebody with, again, a technical background who's been trained, like I said, 822 00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:02,400 in the scientific method to value data, to value logic, to value all of that. 823 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:11,520 I think it's important to speak up and be part of the group that actually kind of represents 824 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,240 reason. 825 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,640 That's scary, but also sounds like an adventure worth having. 826 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:16,640 Yeah. 827 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,400 Well, Bob, this has been fantastic. 828 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,620 I've really enjoyed our conversation. 829 01:00:22,620 --> 01:00:27,720 So thank you so much for all of your insights and openness and this has been great. 830 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,980 Don, loved it. 831 01:00:29,980 --> 01:00:41,660 Thank you so much.