Peace, peace, peace. Hi, I'm Dr. Philip Rowntree,
and you are tuned into Hashtag You Good Man,
a safe space for real conversation about mental
health, healing, and what it means to move through
this world as a black man. Today, I'm joined
by Aaron Muller, therapist, speaker, father,
husband, and author of The Hidden Costs of Black
Exceptionalism. Aaron, glad to have you here,
good brother. Peace, man. Peace. Thank you for
the invitation. I'm glad to be here. Oh, no doubt,
no doubt. Now, before we dive in, I want to start
with where I always start. How are you feeling
right now? Or more specifically, you good man?
You know, so I'm feeling, I'm feeling a great
space, a little anxiety. You know, I'm in the
doctoral program, so that, you know how that
goes. Congrats, congrats. Thank you. So that
has me. you know in a variety of ways um but
i'm pushing through i'm pushing through so just
navigating that coupled with all those other
titles that you said so just doing all of that
at one time so what i'll say is and i don't know
if this might scare you or might encourage you
i don't know but when i started my doctoral program
i had a little bit of hair left Oh, and then
by the end of it, it was like, all right, I need
to come on home. Let me go. The edges wasn't
edging it. So just like, all right, let me come
on home. But no, for sure. Salute to you, man.
I know that journey and navigating all that you're
navigating is it can be trying at times may have
you questioning. Should I be doing this? The
answer is always yes. What I tell folk when it
comes to doctoral programs, it's a war of attrition.
It's not about you not having the knowledge,
you got the knowledge, you got the experience.
It's that new addition, can you stand the rain?
That's all it is. For sure. For sure. So with
that being, oh, no doubt. With that being said,
you've become known as the black therapist. What
pushed you to bring that work into a public space,
especially for brothers? So I didn't see us,
you know, I you know back I graduated social
work school back in 2012 I did not see you know
us being a part of conversations. I knew that
we were hurt in silence in the classrooms I didn't
see I'm like, well, I'm the only male in this
classroom, right? So I'm like there's something
has to be done about this and recognizing that
we black men we go through so much I'm like,
how are we not represented in social work? Are
we not represented in the in the helping field?
So I said, you know what I got to do something
And I said, since I graduated, I got to get to
that next level. And I love to hear your kids
in the background. That's what this is, man.
This is a family conversation, right? So it's
a beautiful thing to hear the laughter. And your
daughter gets to watch daddy do work, right?
And more so, not even as a matter of fact, let's
switch that. Not even do work. She gets to watch
daddy have an impact. and have an impact on Black
folk. And I know we might get frustrated when
it's like, oh, maybe shh, shh. No, no, no, no.
She's watching Daddy Lee. You know what I mean?
And mommy too. And mommy too. Oh, no doubt. No
doubt. No doubt. Yeah, yeah. We can't let mommy
out. Because he's a psychologist too. So we both,
you know, we both at one time, I'm in one room,
she's in the other doing sessions. You know what
I'm saying? They call a session mom and dad.
And, you know, they're here. You know, that's
one thing that we could afford the opportunity
to work from home. And they can sit. So they
know all things they know about life matters.
That's our practice. So that's all they know.
Yeah. Yeah. And just bringing up what you didn't
see during your schooling and what you got in
your professional career, right, is leadership.
Yeah. And seeing us in spaces pushing back against
that white supremacist narrative about how Black
folk are in all the things, our experiences and
how that may have negatively impacted, which
no doubt the trauma has. But it's so important
for us to be seen as as leaders as well. And
I think that's what you're what you're doing
in your work. Yeah, absolutely. That's definitely
what my intention was. And that's where The Black
Therapist's name came from. I wanted something
that could really resonate with people and feel
like, wow, The Black Therapist, because you didn't
really see that, right? Especially a black male.
So I wanted something that would really stand
out and just to lead the charge, right? And that's
so many things that I've done throughout the
years is things I didn't see, right? So I wanted
to create that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're taking
that something that often feels so private for
us and making it visible and making it accessible.
So again, I want to show love and appreciation
just for you and the work that you do and the
work that work that your wife does as well. I
appreciate it. For sure, for sure. So with that
being said, what's the one thing you think traditional
therapy still misses when it comes to black men?
So you can't talk about. mental illness, you
can't talk about healing without talking about
oppression, without talking about systemic racism,
about talking about hypermasculinity, about talking
about generational trauma. So we have to incorporate
that into our traditional therapy. It could often
feel like a vacuum, but we have to be inclusive
and include all of that. If we don't, we're neglecting
the very essence of what Black men need. And
that's something that I'm focusing on with my
dissertation, which is going to be something
about culture adaptive interventions for Black
men and recognizing that it's not just traditional
therapy practices alone, but it's other cultural
pieces that's important that we need to include.
Word. It's needed. Trust me, it's needed, as
I was doing my dissertation, which is also on
Black boys and Black men. When you go to the
literature, because... It ain't us. Right. You
know, it's not us doing research on us. We see
a lot of, you know, white folk and some are well
meaning for sure. Right. But it's not necessarily
us in the cultural context that a lot of this
takes place. And as you brought up ideas like
systemic racism, intentional oppression and so
forth, this these conversations must be happening
if we're talking about engaging. with black boys
and black men specifically, because we know they're
not showing up in the textbook, but we know that
they're real. And that's why having black researchers
be a part of academia is so vital. And we don't
see that a lot. And I think that's why that's
what. kind of push me to go back also to bring
that voice again leading the charge. And there
are people out there, but we need more. We need
more. We need more voices in the research to
bring that relevant data, right? To bring that
to the work that we're doing, right? We see the
push about black men going to therapy, right?
I trade more black kings in therapy too. But
if we don't have kind of the interventions and
strategies in place and to address that, then
it's kind of just, okay, we're all going to therapy,
but then what? Right. So when I recognize that
then what it's like, OK, I need to go a step
further where we need more cultural interventions
and looking at other other ways that we could
get brothers into therapy and retain and retain,
because I'm looking at research on the retention
and engagement of black men in therapy, because
that therapeutic rapport is so important. So
it's not just enough just to get them in there,
but we got to get them to stay and be consistent
therapy to bring up highlights this idea of.
And the foundation of black liberation psychology
where they looked at these these three pillars
you had deconstruction It's this recognition
that hey Eurocentric psychology. Yeah, there's
some nuggets in there that may be beneficial
But as a whole but as a whole in an understanding
it's not necessarily meant for folk of the Diaspora
and then this reconstruction aspect. Okay, you
know what we need to go and figure out what it
means to have this higher level of self -consciousness
as black folk, we need to start going into the
archives and realize who we are as a people.
Because again, psychology didn't start with white
folk. We recognize that. This is something else
that's been colonized over time, another field
that's been colonized over time. And lastly,
this reconstruction piece which you're speaking
to is, OK, now we have these black folk in therapy.
What does this look like? culturally relevant
tools. Yes, CBT can be useful, but CBT isn't
addressing the hundreds of years of the impact
of chattel slavery, right? It's not impacting
these, it's just saying, hey, you have this thought,
you need to change this thought, but it's not
really getting to the meat of our experiences.
So again, what you're talking about and what
you intend to do and what you're doing in your
research is so beneficial. Absolutely. And if
I'm being continuously oppressed, I can't change
my thoughts and my patterns. Exactly. So I'm
still dealing with, you know, covert and overt
racism. So how do I, how do I navigate that?
And my therapist is telling me, you know what,
you know, your thoughts become your feelings
and let's do a mood journal. Right. That's cool.
Right. We do a mood journal and all of that.
But yo, it's real out here that I'm dealing with.
Right. So we got to address that also. I want
to bring up something. I live in Philly. You
live in New York. So it's this northeast thing,
right? And I'm sure you have it there, too, where
there's this block in German, the Germantown
section of Philadelphia, Ashme Street. There
is literally a cop car parked there 24 hours
a day. seven days a week. And so some folk may
look at it and what they may spend it, the city
may spend it as, hey, you know, this is maybe
a high crime area, just safety and all of these
things. But what does this do to the consciousness
of a people? when you constantly walk out and
you have to be under surveillance 24 hours a
day, seven days a week. So to your point, if
I go to a therapist and say, listen, I don't
feel the best about myself. Well, you know, we
need to change that. Let's get the journal. Let's
do all these these, you know, it's mindfulness
activities. But yet I still got to walk past
this police car that's watching me 24 hours a
day, seven days a week. That's reinforcing this
idea that. my presence alone and people that
look like me cause community harm. And reinforces
hypervigilance. And we know hypervigilance as
agitation, as irritability, and all that goes
down the road from there. So absolutely. So that's
why this continued work is so important so that
brothers can have a space to be heard and understood
when they have to deal with all of those issues.
Exactly, exactly. So you're a husband, a father,
a business owner, you know, you wear fitted hats,
you know, I thought it was a Yankees hat. All
right, but it's not. All right, I wasn't sure.
It's my homie brand, Gildia Brothers and Briefcases.
So, you know, got to represent it. This is about
black, elevating black and brown voices of men.
So this is a - For sure. Say it one more time.
This is Brothers and Briefcases by Gildia Lopez.
Okay. I always rock this and she has class every
year, elevating the voices of black men in different
areas and black and brown men in different areas
of whatever, lawyers, doctors, therapists, everybody.
And the reason why I had you say it again is
because it's important that we highlight folk
who care about black men in a world where you
could turn on, you could scroll and see black
men being harmed. You could see vitriol. You
can see so much when it comes to black men. We
must continuously highlight. Folk who cares and
love on black and this is a sister that's doing
that right? So definitely, you know, thank you.
No doubt No doubt. So again, i'll start over.
You're a husband a father a business owner What's
something you've had to unlearn to show up fully
in those roles? Wow, so definitely boundaries
because i'm i'm definitely i'm the type of dude
like oh you need that Okay, let me do it real
quick. Like i was talking to my mom this morning
like my sister needed something and she's like,
okay, when you have a chance and like, I did
it immediately, right? And she was like, she
said, I don't know how you do it. And that's
kind of like how I am. And it's a benefit, but
sometimes it could be overwhelming trying to
do everything at one time, right? So I think
learning that I could say, okay, I'll do a little
bit later or learning that I can't say yes to
every engagement or every opportunity that comes.
So just learn like, I really want to be there,
really want to support people, really want to
elevate, you know, mental health in our community,
but also recognizing that there's times where
I do need to pause, right? The intention about
taking pauses and things like that. So I have
to learn that, that I can't attend every event.
I can't say yes to everything. And I can't say,
well, you know, I can't right now, but I'll do
it in a few. Or I can't come to your event, but
I could support with a donation. You know what
I'm saying? So learning that, right? And not
having that guilt that, man, I didn't show up
or, you know, I didn't do it right away, things
like that. So I have to learn that. the hard
way. Yeah, that's important, right? That's important
because when we talk about boundaries, we're
talking about peace. So with that being said,
what comes up for you in the event where somebody
reaches out and say, I'm about to call you, we'll
call you Dr. Muller, right? Because we're speaking
into existence. It's just a formality. So if
they like Aaron Muller, Dr. Muller, Can you speak
at our event? Can you help me with such and such?
What comes up for you when you say you can't?
It's like being a disappointment, right? So I
look at it this way. This person reached out
to me and asked me, right? So clearly they find
value in me, right? And it's hurtful when you
can't, right? So that's my stuff, right? I don't
know if it's people -pleasing. I don't think
it is. It's just like, I like to help. I think
that's what kind of... you know, I'm, you know,
God fearing God. So I like, I think I think he
put me in this position because outside of this,
I'm not a talkative person. I'm a pretty chill,
quiet person. So to be elevated to this level
that I am and speaking all the other stuff, it
can't be me. It has to be the God that put me
in this position. Right. So I don't think that
likely when I'm asked to do things. Right. So
I think that's where You know, I feel bad, you
know, honestly feel bad. But after like I had
to unlearn that and that there's certain things
that I can do and certain things I can't do.
And I can't allow myself to feel bad about that.
Right. Because ultimately I have to make sure
that I'm well. And if I'm doing so many different
things, I really can't do it. Right. So it's
not like I'm just chilling, laying down all the
time. It's like I'm doing other things or I'm
actually resting. Right. And I think that's also
valuable that I have to recognize that I do have
to rest. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I wanted
you to to articulate the feelings related to
that is because so often so many brothers finds
ourselves in this space where, you know, we have
to be John Henry, where we have to do it all.
And, you know, we we ignore how we're feeling
about it. We ignore the rest. We ignored even
just not wanting to do it, because that's that's
good enough, too. But especially when when you
put when your life's work is centers community
can be extremely difficult to say. to say no.
And so by you putting putting voice to that,
I think that will free a lot of people up who
may be watching this to say, yeah, yeah, I may
feel bad, because both things can be true. Okay,
so we can feel you can feel bad, but also recognize
that this may be momentary, but also I need to
rest and recoup and recover, because I need to
be here for the long haul to right. And I think
we you know, oftentimes we identify what we do
or things as part of our self -worth and as part
of as being a man and recognizing that that is
not just the things that we do, right? That is
more than that, right? We don't have to constantly,
it doesn't have to be transaction, it doesn't
have to be tasks that you do in order to say
that I'm showing up as a husband, I'm showing
up as a father, I'm showing up as a dad, right?
As a son, right? It's not just tasks that you
do, but it's also just emotional things, being
present, being able to listen, right? So I think
those also recognizing that it doesn't have to
be task oriented. all the time yeah yeah yeah
and just to recap like that that unlearning can
open up space for peace right but we know that
it's not easy and so with your ebook your ebook
really spoke to that the hitting cost of black
exceptionalism first what inspired you to write
it and who did you write it for wow so i wrote
it for the the black man that uh celebrates for
being a strong one right but he's like quietly
failing Falling apart, right? I've experienced
that, right? It's put into language that exhaustion,
right? Just overwhelming exhaustion. You accomplish
all of these goals, but constantly get an example
for people. There's high functioning, high achieving,
but then you just feel like tired, right? So
I wrote that specifically for those men. There's
a workbook there, things that you could write
down, just to find space and find voice that...
Black excellence doesn't mean that you have to
exhaust yourself and finding peace and not finding
guilt like how I talked about that guilt, but
just finding that balance, that balance in all
that you do and that desire to overachieve. And
sometimes that overachievement comes from being
in the space of trauma, whether it's poverty.
or whatever, right? So he's like, I'm gonna show
you, I'm gonna do this, right? But then it becomes
exhaustion because you're just pushing, pushing,
pushing and going and not taking time to pause.
And I find that the black men I've been working
with, been working with them on finding the space
to pause without guilt. That you can be intentional
about, this is my time off. And sometimes you
need to schedule it. And I said, we'll work with
you with that. Like put it in your calendar.
I'm not doing anything between these hours. Sometimes
we need we have to start with that. It may seem
silly, but we have to start with scheduling that
time and then becomes natural over time. But
that's where the hidden cause of black exceptionalism
came from. Those those men and sisters to our
sisters purchased the book and found it very,
very valuable just in terms of taking time to
pause and always having to be the strong one.
And this is so exhausting. Yeah. Yeah, our our
day to day doesn't necessarily make room for
for us to pause for us to reset. That's not how
capitalism works. Right. Right. And so our commodity
that we offer capitalism is our bodies. Right
is our minds and so it's going to take as much
as they can It's going to extract as much as
they can out of us unless you're intentional
and you say hey, hold up You know what? I'm using
my sick days. I'm using my personal time. Why
because you know, I just I income it I just don't
want to again without the guilt associated with
it right so you have to and we have to put our
wellness at the forefront because we realize
these companies do not love us these businesses
do not love us they will they will extract as
much as they can can it become difficult when
we're talking about navigating familial relationships
and so forth for sure right because when you're
a father when you're a husband when you're a
partner etc etc you may be asked More right more
may be required of you, but it should never come
at the expense of You your survival and you being
able to live. Yeah and reckon and recognizing
that those moments too because I think Where
things occur or things happen whether it be medically
right or people kind of blow up? It's because
they've reached their breaking point in and recognize
it. So I think also having a thermometer and
recognizing like, well, I'm feeling overwhelmed.
I think it's time that I need to do this, X,
Y, and Z to take care of myself. You know, people
own businesses and things like that. So, you
know, I work with, you know, business owners,
thought leaders and things like that. So they
have a lot going on. So it's hard to just say
no to everything, but recognizing those moments
where... Okay, I'm gonna take a break today or
I'm gonna take a day off and actually do something
that I enjoy and And not finding guilt in doing
those things since find that we're not taking
care of our health I know that you don't play
with the gym so intentional about those things
and how important that is Word word you said
your excellence doesn't have to come at the expense
of your piece That's that's heavy. And with that
being said, because we've been talking almost
abstractly, but we've been talking about others.
But what does that look like for you right now?
Right now is finding moments of stillness, like
whether it be driving in the car with no music
on. Like I found solace in that. Right. Whether
it be taking a break in between sessions. Right.
Not scheduling things so tight. Been saying.
accommodating, you know, saying like, you know,
I can't attend that event. And maybe next year
I could attend. So actually, like being intentional
about my schedule. So things like that has really
been monumental. Spending time with family and
actually doing things, scheduling us to go out
and having family days and things like that.
So really prioritizing connection. And even with
homies like this, sometimes I saw a TikTok called
Waffle Wednesday, Wednesday Waffle. So you like
use your phone and you like send like a video.
of like, yo, how you doing? Send an update. And
then I send it to my homies on Wednesdays and
stuff like that. So really being intentional
about reaching out to people and connecting.
I think that's really important because we know
the stuff the studies show with black men and
as we get older, we start to isolate even more.
Right. So I think getting the practice of maintaining
good core people around me is really important
with the boundaries and prioritizing peace and
taking care of my health. Right. Those are those
are the Those are the things that I find really
helpful. So what has been the response from,
you said, your family, your family nights, you
make sure that they're there. What has been the
response for you focusing on your piece from
others? So, I mean, my wife is like, yo, you're
doing too much, you need to calm down. My mother's
always worried about me, right? So I think they're
happy when... Oh, you're not doing nothing right
now. They're happy when I'm just laying down
doing nothing. It's like sit down. So it's like
I'm being encouraged to do it. So it's a great
thing. But it's like good. You don't have nothing
planned. You know what I'm saying? I'm glad that
you're chilling. I'm glad that you're sleeping
because usually I'm up early doing stuff, thinking.
So it's just like they like when they see me
being still. So nothing but support. Word. So
what's one simple reflection or prompt, reflection,
prompt, or tool from the book that someone watching
can try? So one thing I want you to reflect on
is where are you performing instead of just being,
right? So that's one of the prompts. Think about
in all that you do, where you're performing.
In some area, you're not just present. That may
be at home, right? So think about that. Where
are you not just? being yourself, which actually
putting on a production as I call it. So really
assessing that because that's exhausting. And
I think picking up the e -book, give you some
tools on that, recognizing it, journaling it
down, and give you some strategies on how to
navigate and how to deal with that. Because that's
what the exhaustion comes into, having to perform
at work. I have clients talking about having
to put on, whether it be code switching at work,
whether having to deal with microaggressions
at work. I talk about that in the e -book as
well. And it just weighs on you. right? So you
have to perform, right? And then sometimes when
you come home, you're exhausted, but then you
feel like I got to show up for home also, right?
So now it's just a Broadway production everywhere.
So where can you be your authentic self? I'm
sitting here asking myself that right now. I
definitely could be that here, right? No matter
where you might be watching that, I can be that
here, because I'm definitely going to be. But
I know of some spaces where I may not be showing
up as my authentic self. I may be performing.
So I thank you for giving me that prompt to consider.
Listen, this is time has gone that fast, man.
How can folks support you and stay tapped in?
All right, so you could catch me the black underscore
therapist on Instagram, you know, I have and
I'm actually coming up with another e -book for
the black case therapy too. So that's going to
be specifically for black men. And I have the
hidden cause of black exceptionalism. You could
tap in if you want to, you know, book me to speak
at your event. I'm building this work and community,
right? So tap in with me and let's do it together.
Listen, man, I want to thank Aaron Muller for
joining me today. And I want to thank you, the
viewer for tuning in. And remember, When it comes
to men's mental health and wellness, the road
isn't easy, but it's worth it. Peace.