WEBVTT 00:00:10.289 --> 00:00:12.390 Peace, peace, peace. Hi, I'm Dr. Philip Rowntree, 00:00:12.449 --> 00:00:14.769 and you are tuned into Hashtag You Good Man, 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:17.750 a safe space for real conversation about mental 00:00:17.750 --> 00:00:19.929 health, healing, and what it means to move through 00:00:19.929 --> 00:00:22.769 this world as a black man. Today, I'm joined 00:00:22.769 --> 00:00:26.530 by Aaron Muller, therapist, speaker, father, 00:00:27.109 --> 00:00:29.489 husband, and author of The Hidden Costs of Black 00:00:29.489 --> 00:00:31.829 Exceptionalism. Aaron, glad to have you here, 00:00:31.910 --> 00:00:34.609 good brother. Peace, man. Peace. Thank you for 00:00:34.609 --> 00:00:37.689 the invitation. I'm glad to be here. Oh, no doubt, 00:00:37.789 --> 00:00:40.490 no doubt. Now, before we dive in, I want to start 00:00:40.490 --> 00:00:43.250 with where I always start. How are you feeling 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:46.229 right now? Or more specifically, you good man? 00:00:48.429 --> 00:00:51.490 You know, so I'm feeling, I'm feeling a great 00:00:51.490 --> 00:00:54.149 space, a little anxiety. You know, I'm in the 00:00:54.149 --> 00:00:56.670 doctoral program, so that, you know how that 00:00:56.670 --> 00:00:59.670 goes. Congrats, congrats. Thank you. So that 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:04.930 has me. you know in a variety of ways um but 00:01:04.930 --> 00:01:07.430 i'm pushing through i'm pushing through so just 00:01:07.430 --> 00:01:09.469 navigating that coupled with all those other 00:01:09.469 --> 00:01:12.969 titles that you said so just doing all of that 00:01:12.969 --> 00:01:17.650 at one time so what i'll say is and i don't know 00:01:17.650 --> 00:01:20.310 if this might scare you or might encourage you 00:01:20.310 --> 00:01:22.890 i don't know but when i started my doctoral program 00:01:22.890 --> 00:01:27.569 i had a little bit of hair left Oh, and then 00:01:27.569 --> 00:01:29.450 by the end of it, it was like, all right, I need 00:01:29.450 --> 00:01:31.930 to come on home. Let me go. The edges wasn't 00:01:31.930 --> 00:01:34.250 edging it. So just like, all right, let me come 00:01:34.250 --> 00:01:36.849 on home. But no, for sure. Salute to you, man. 00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:40.250 I know that journey and navigating all that you're 00:01:40.250 --> 00:01:43.430 navigating is it can be trying at times may have 00:01:43.430 --> 00:01:46.069 you questioning. Should I be doing this? The 00:01:46.069 --> 00:01:49.069 answer is always yes. What I tell folk when it 00:01:49.069 --> 00:01:51.230 comes to doctoral programs, it's a war of attrition. 00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:54.140 It's not about you not having the knowledge, 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:56.400 you got the knowledge, you got the experience. 00:01:56.980 --> 00:01:59.439 It's that new addition, can you stand the rain? 00:02:00.379 --> 00:02:05.420 That's all it is. For sure. For sure. So with 00:02:05.420 --> 00:02:07.939 that being, oh, no doubt. With that being said, 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:10.539 you've become known as the black therapist. What 00:02:10.539 --> 00:02:13.120 pushed you to bring that work into a public space, 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:16.259 especially for brothers? So I didn't see us, 00:02:16.340 --> 00:02:18.460 you know, I you know back I graduated social 00:02:18.460 --> 00:02:21.639 work school back in 2012 I did not see you know 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:24.259 us being a part of conversations. I knew that 00:02:24.259 --> 00:02:26.580 we were hurt in silence in the classrooms I didn't 00:02:26.580 --> 00:02:29.080 see I'm like, well, I'm the only male in this 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.680 classroom, right? So I'm like there's something 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.340 has to be done about this and recognizing that 00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:36.240 we black men we go through so much I'm like, 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.639 how are we not represented in social work? Are 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.479 we not represented in the in the helping field? 00:02:40.539 --> 00:02:42.939 So I said, you know what I got to do something 00:02:43.069 --> 00:02:45.750 And I said, since I graduated, I got to get to 00:02:45.750 --> 00:02:50.169 that next level. And I love to hear your kids 00:02:50.169 --> 00:02:52.349 in the background. That's what this is, man. 00:02:52.389 --> 00:02:55.449 This is a family conversation, right? So it's 00:02:55.449 --> 00:02:59.310 a beautiful thing to hear the laughter. And your 00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:03.629 daughter gets to watch daddy do work, right? 00:03:03.990 --> 00:03:06.030 And more so, not even as a matter of fact, let's 00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:08.969 switch that. Not even do work. She gets to watch 00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:13.169 daddy have an impact. and have an impact on Black 00:03:13.169 --> 00:03:15.330 folk. And I know we might get frustrated when 00:03:15.330 --> 00:03:18.229 it's like, oh, maybe shh, shh. No, no, no, no. 00:03:18.629 --> 00:03:21.639 She's watching Daddy Lee. You know what I mean? 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.360 And mommy too. And mommy too. Oh, no doubt. No 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:26.659 doubt. No doubt. Yeah, yeah. We can't let mommy 00:03:26.659 --> 00:03:29.759 out. Because he's a psychologist too. So we both, 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.639 you know, we both at one time, I'm in one room, 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:34.180 she's in the other doing sessions. You know what 00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:36.080 I'm saying? They call a session mom and dad. 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:39.699 And, you know, they're here. You know, that's 00:03:39.699 --> 00:03:41.300 one thing that we could afford the opportunity 00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:44.599 to work from home. And they can sit. So they 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:46.680 know all things they know about life matters. 00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:48.460 That's our practice. So that's all they know. 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.599 Yeah. Yeah. And just bringing up what you didn't 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.719 see during your schooling and what you got in 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.719 your professional career, right, is leadership. 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:03.599 Yeah. And seeing us in spaces pushing back against 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.219 that white supremacist narrative about how Black 00:04:06.219 --> 00:04:09.580 folk are in all the things, our experiences and 00:04:09.580 --> 00:04:11.580 how that may have negatively impacted, which 00:04:11.580 --> 00:04:14.340 no doubt the trauma has. But it's so important 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:18.220 for us to be seen as as leaders as well. And 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:19.959 I think that's what you're what you're doing 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:22.339 in your work. Yeah, absolutely. That's definitely 00:04:22.339 --> 00:04:25.019 what my intention was. And that's where The Black 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:26.959 Therapist's name came from. I wanted something 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:29.879 that could really resonate with people and feel 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:31.560 like, wow, The Black Therapist, because you didn't 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:33.579 really see that, right? Especially a black male. 00:04:33.620 --> 00:04:35.259 So I wanted something that would really stand 00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:38.480 out and just to lead the charge, right? And that's 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:40.740 so many things that I've done throughout the 00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:43.420 years is things I didn't see, right? So I wanted 00:04:43.420 --> 00:04:46.839 to create that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're taking 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.540 that something that often feels so private for 00:04:49.540 --> 00:04:53.220 us and making it visible and making it accessible. 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:56.199 So again, I want to show love and appreciation 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:58.699 just for you and the work that you do and the 00:04:58.699 --> 00:05:00.779 work that work that your wife does as well. I 00:05:00.779 --> 00:05:04.220 appreciate it. For sure, for sure. So with that 00:05:04.220 --> 00:05:06.519 being said, what's the one thing you think traditional 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.500 therapy still misses when it comes to black men? 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:14.970 So you can't talk about. mental illness, you 00:05:14.970 --> 00:05:17.850 can't talk about healing without talking about 00:05:17.850 --> 00:05:21.250 oppression, without talking about systemic racism, 00:05:21.509 --> 00:05:23.610 about talking about hypermasculinity, about talking 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:26.170 about generational trauma. So we have to incorporate 00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:29.209 that into our traditional therapy. It could often 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:31.649 feel like a vacuum, but we have to be inclusive 00:05:31.649 --> 00:05:34.860 and include all of that. If we don't, we're neglecting 00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:37.639 the very essence of what Black men need. And 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:40.660 that's something that I'm focusing on with my 00:05:40.660 --> 00:05:42.139 dissertation, which is going to be something 00:05:42.139 --> 00:05:45.579 about culture adaptive interventions for Black 00:05:45.579 --> 00:05:48.120 men and recognizing that it's not just traditional 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.759 therapy practices alone, but it's other cultural 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:52.740 pieces that's important that we need to include. 00:05:53.740 --> 00:05:56.500 Word. It's needed. Trust me, it's needed, as 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:58.439 I was doing my dissertation, which is also on 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:00.639 Black boys and Black men. When you go to the 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.509 literature, because... It ain't us. Right. You 00:06:04.509 --> 00:06:07.389 know, it's not us doing research on us. We see 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:10.449 a lot of, you know, white folk and some are well 00:06:10.449 --> 00:06:12.709 meaning for sure. Right. But it's not necessarily 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:15.569 us in the cultural context that a lot of this 00:06:15.569 --> 00:06:19.009 takes place. And as you brought up ideas like 00:06:19.009 --> 00:06:22.290 systemic racism, intentional oppression and so 00:06:22.290 --> 00:06:26.290 forth, this these conversations must be happening 00:06:26.290 --> 00:06:30.040 if we're talking about engaging. with black boys 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:32.720 and black men specifically, because we know they're 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:35.180 not showing up in the textbook, but we know that 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:39.779 they're real. And that's why having black researchers 00:06:39.779 --> 00:06:44.139 be a part of academia is so vital. And we don't 00:06:44.139 --> 00:06:46.879 see that a lot. And I think that's why that's 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.699 what. kind of push me to go back also to bring 00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:53.980 that voice again leading the charge. And there 00:06:53.980 --> 00:06:55.600 are people out there, but we need more. We need 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:58.759 more. We need more voices in the research to 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.660 bring that relevant data, right? To bring that 00:07:01.660 --> 00:07:03.819 to the work that we're doing, right? We see the 00:07:03.819 --> 00:07:05.939 push about black men going to therapy, right? 00:07:05.980 --> 00:07:08.240 I trade more black kings in therapy too. But 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.199 if we don't have kind of the interventions and 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:13.980 strategies in place and to address that, then 00:07:13.980 --> 00:07:15.660 it's kind of just, okay, we're all going to therapy, 00:07:15.660 --> 00:07:18.500 but then what? Right. So when I recognize that 00:07:18.500 --> 00:07:20.420 then what it's like, OK, I need to go a step 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:22.279 further where we need more cultural interventions 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:24.980 and looking at other other ways that we could 00:07:24.980 --> 00:07:28.220 get brothers into therapy and retain and retain, 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.259 because I'm looking at research on the retention 00:07:30.259 --> 00:07:33.100 and engagement of black men in therapy, because 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:35.300 that therapeutic rapport is so important. So 00:07:35.300 --> 00:07:36.819 it's not just enough just to get them in there, 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:39.199 but we got to get them to stay and be consistent 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.959 therapy to bring up highlights this idea of. 00:07:43.019 --> 00:07:46.579 And the foundation of black liberation psychology 00:07:46.579 --> 00:07:48.879 where they looked at these these three pillars 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.680 you had deconstruction It's this recognition 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.740 that hey Eurocentric psychology. Yeah, there's 00:07:54.740 --> 00:07:56.920 some nuggets in there that may be beneficial 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.600 But as a whole but as a whole in an understanding 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.420 it's not necessarily meant for folk of the Diaspora 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:05.980 and then this reconstruction aspect. Okay, you 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:08.930 know what we need to go and figure out what it 00:08:08.930 --> 00:08:12.050 means to have this higher level of self -consciousness 00:08:12.050 --> 00:08:14.930 as black folk, we need to start going into the 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:17.949 archives and realize who we are as a people. 00:08:18.110 --> 00:08:20.889 Because again, psychology didn't start with white 00:08:20.889 --> 00:08:23.810 folk. We recognize that. This is something else 00:08:23.810 --> 00:08:26.529 that's been colonized over time, another field 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:29.110 that's been colonized over time. And lastly, 00:08:29.269 --> 00:08:31.050 this reconstruction piece which you're speaking 00:08:31.050 --> 00:08:34.549 to is, OK, now we have these black folk in therapy. 00:08:34.850 --> 00:08:37.860 What does this look like? culturally relevant 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:43.340 tools. Yes, CBT can be useful, but CBT isn't 00:08:43.340 --> 00:08:48.519 addressing the hundreds of years of the impact 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.480 of chattel slavery, right? It's not impacting 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:53.639 these, it's just saying, hey, you have this thought, 00:08:53.659 --> 00:08:55.559 you need to change this thought, but it's not 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:57.679 really getting to the meat of our experiences. 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.620 So again, what you're talking about and what 00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:02.779 you intend to do and what you're doing in your 00:09:02.779 --> 00:09:05.759 research is so beneficial. Absolutely. And if 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.240 I'm being continuously oppressed, I can't change 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:13.879 my thoughts and my patterns. Exactly. So I'm 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:16.299 still dealing with, you know, covert and overt 00:09:16.299 --> 00:09:19.000 racism. So how do I, how do I navigate that? 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:20.919 And my therapist is telling me, you know what, 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:22.480 you know, your thoughts become your feelings 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:25.019 and let's do a mood journal. Right. That's cool. 00:09:25.340 --> 00:09:26.980 Right. We do a mood journal and all of that. 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.039 But yo, it's real out here that I'm dealing with. 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.080 Right. So we got to address that also. I want 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.100 to bring up something. I live in Philly. You 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:37.059 live in New York. So it's this northeast thing, 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.759 right? And I'm sure you have it there, too, where 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.299 there's this block in German, the Germantown 00:09:42.299 --> 00:09:44.919 section of Philadelphia, Ashme Street. There 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:49.019 is literally a cop car parked there 24 hours 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:52.950 a day. seven days a week. And so some folk may 00:09:52.950 --> 00:09:54.929 look at it and what they may spend it, the city 00:09:54.929 --> 00:09:56.990 may spend it as, hey, you know, this is maybe 00:09:56.990 --> 00:09:59.669 a high crime area, just safety and all of these 00:09:59.669 --> 00:10:02.049 things. But what does this do to the consciousness 00:10:02.049 --> 00:10:05.669 of a people? when you constantly walk out and 00:10:05.669 --> 00:10:09.230 you have to be under surveillance 24 hours a 00:10:09.230 --> 00:10:11.549 day, seven days a week. So to your point, if 00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:13.929 I go to a therapist and say, listen, I don't 00:10:13.929 --> 00:10:16.230 feel the best about myself. Well, you know, we 00:10:16.230 --> 00:10:17.970 need to change that. Let's get the journal. Let's 00:10:17.970 --> 00:10:20.509 do all these these, you know, it's mindfulness 00:10:20.509 --> 00:10:22.830 activities. But yet I still got to walk past 00:10:22.830 --> 00:10:26.090 this police car that's watching me 24 hours a 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:28.710 day, seven days a week. That's reinforcing this 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:32.610 idea that. my presence alone and people that 00:10:32.610 --> 00:10:38.110 look like me cause community harm. And reinforces 00:10:38.110 --> 00:10:40.950 hypervigilance. And we know hypervigilance as 00:10:40.950 --> 00:10:43.370 agitation, as irritability, and all that goes 00:10:43.370 --> 00:10:46.750 down the road from there. So absolutely. So that's 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:51.710 why this continued work is so important so that 00:10:51.710 --> 00:10:55.210 brothers can have a space to be heard and understood 00:10:55.210 --> 00:10:59.149 when they have to deal with all of those issues. 00:11:00.199 --> 00:11:03.460 Exactly, exactly. So you're a husband, a father, 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.200 a business owner, you know, you wear fitted hats, 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:09.659 you know, I thought it was a Yankees hat. All 00:11:09.659 --> 00:11:11.679 right, but it's not. All right, I wasn't sure. 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.840 It's my homie brand, Gildia Brothers and Briefcases. 00:11:15.259 --> 00:11:17.200 So, you know, got to represent it. This is about 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.500 black, elevating black and brown voices of men. 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:22.919 So this is a - For sure. Say it one more time. 00:11:23.299 --> 00:11:25.659 This is Brothers and Briefcases by Gildia Lopez. 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.320 Okay. I always rock this and she has class every 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:32.759 year, elevating the voices of black men in different 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:36.159 areas and black and brown men in different areas 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.879 of whatever, lawyers, doctors, therapists, everybody. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.179 And the reason why I had you say it again is 00:11:43.179 --> 00:11:45.059 because it's important that we highlight folk 00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:49.100 who care about black men in a world where you 00:11:49.100 --> 00:11:51.639 could turn on, you could scroll and see black 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:53.799 men being harmed. You could see vitriol. You 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:55.700 can see so much when it comes to black men. We 00:11:55.700 --> 00:11:59.440 must continuously highlight. Folk who cares and 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:01.200 love on black and this is a sister that's doing 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.659 that right? So definitely, you know, thank you. 00:12:03.740 --> 00:12:07.360 No doubt No doubt. So again, i'll start over. 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.860 You're a husband a father a business owner What's 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:12.759 something you've had to unlearn to show up fully 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:16.299 in those roles? Wow, so definitely boundaries 00:12:16.299 --> 00:12:18.240 because i'm i'm definitely i'm the type of dude 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.440 like oh you need that Okay, let me do it real 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.320 quick. Like i was talking to my mom this morning 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.679 like my sister needed something and she's like, 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:27.340 okay, when you have a chance and like, I did 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:29.740 it immediately, right? And she was like, she 00:12:29.740 --> 00:12:31.620 said, I don't know how you do it. And that's 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:34.399 kind of like how I am. And it's a benefit, but 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:37.960 sometimes it could be overwhelming trying to 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:40.120 do everything at one time, right? So I think 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.039 learning that I could say, okay, I'll do a little 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.899 bit later or learning that I can't say yes to 00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.879 every engagement or every opportunity that comes. 00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:50.879 So just learn like, I really want to be there, 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.919 really want to support people, really want to 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.600 elevate, you know, mental health in our community, 00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:58.700 but also recognizing that there's times where 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:01.539 I do need to pause, right? The intention about 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:03.039 taking pauses and things like that. So I have 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.559 to learn that, that I can't attend every event. 00:13:06.740 --> 00:13:09.139 I can't say yes to everything. And I can't say, 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.399 well, you know, I can't right now, but I'll do 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:13.620 it in a few. Or I can't come to your event, but 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:15.440 I could support with a donation. You know what 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:17.679 I'm saying? So learning that, right? And not 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:20.179 having that guilt that, man, I didn't show up 00:13:20.179 --> 00:13:22.259 or, you know, I didn't do it right away, things 00:13:22.259 --> 00:13:25.559 like that. So I have to learn that. the hard 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:30.179 way. Yeah, that's important, right? That's important 00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:32.299 because when we talk about boundaries, we're 00:13:32.299 --> 00:13:35.779 talking about peace. So with that being said, 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:38.840 what comes up for you in the event where somebody 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.860 reaches out and say, I'm about to call you, we'll 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:44.139 call you Dr. Muller, right? Because we're speaking 00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:46.659 into existence. It's just a formality. So if 00:13:46.659 --> 00:13:50.860 they like Aaron Muller, Dr. Muller, Can you speak 00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:53.159 at our event? Can you help me with such and such? 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:56.120 What comes up for you when you say you can't? 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.659 It's like being a disappointment, right? So I 00:13:59.659 --> 00:14:01.740 look at it this way. This person reached out 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:04.399 to me and asked me, right? So clearly they find 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:09.179 value in me, right? And it's hurtful when you 00:14:09.179 --> 00:14:13.600 can't, right? So that's my stuff, right? I don't 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:14.840 know if it's people -pleasing. I don't think 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:16.720 it is. It's just like, I like to help. I think 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.450 that's what kind of... you know, I'm, you know, 00:14:19.549 --> 00:14:22.830 God fearing God. So I like, I think I think he 00:14:22.830 --> 00:14:25.049 put me in this position because outside of this, 00:14:25.309 --> 00:14:27.850 I'm not a talkative person. I'm a pretty chill, 00:14:28.049 --> 00:14:30.990 quiet person. So to be elevated to this level 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:33.250 that I am and speaking all the other stuff, it 00:14:33.250 --> 00:14:36.230 can't be me. It has to be the God that put me 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:38.669 in this position. Right. So I don't think that 00:14:38.669 --> 00:14:41.690 likely when I'm asked to do things. Right. So 00:14:41.690 --> 00:14:45.529 I think that's where You know, I feel bad, you 00:14:45.529 --> 00:14:47.590 know, honestly feel bad. But after like I had 00:14:47.590 --> 00:14:50.669 to unlearn that and that there's certain things 00:14:50.669 --> 00:14:52.429 that I can do and certain things I can't do. 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:55.690 And I can't allow myself to feel bad about that. 00:14:55.690 --> 00:14:57.789 Right. Because ultimately I have to make sure 00:14:57.789 --> 00:14:59.710 that I'm well. And if I'm doing so many different 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:02.230 things, I really can't do it. Right. So it's 00:15:02.230 --> 00:15:03.870 not like I'm just chilling, laying down all the 00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:05.769 time. It's like I'm doing other things or I'm 00:15:05.769 --> 00:15:08.450 actually resting. Right. And I think that's also 00:15:08.450 --> 00:15:11.490 valuable that I have to recognize that I do have 00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:14.940 to rest. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I wanted 00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:17.360 you to to articulate the feelings related to 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.519 that is because so often so many brothers finds 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:23.100 ourselves in this space where, you know, we have 00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:26.080 to be John Henry, where we have to do it all. 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.419 And, you know, we we ignore how we're feeling 00:15:29.419 --> 00:15:32.200 about it. We ignore the rest. We ignored even 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:34.279 just not wanting to do it, because that's that's 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:36.919 good enough, too. But especially when when you 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.600 put when your life's work is centers community 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:43.809 can be extremely difficult to say. to say no. 00:15:44.070 --> 00:15:46.710 And so by you putting putting voice to that, 00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:49.690 I think that will free a lot of people up who 00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:52.509 may be watching this to say, yeah, yeah, I may 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:54.769 feel bad, because both things can be true. Okay, 00:15:54.929 --> 00:15:58.110 so we can feel you can feel bad, but also recognize 00:15:58.110 --> 00:16:01.789 that this may be momentary, but also I need to 00:16:01.789 --> 00:16:04.889 rest and recoup and recover, because I need to 00:16:04.889 --> 00:16:07.769 be here for the long haul to right. And I think 00:16:07.769 --> 00:16:12.039 we you know, oftentimes we identify what we do 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.679 or things as part of our self -worth and as part 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:16.919 of as being a man and recognizing that that is 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.639 not just the things that we do, right? That is 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:21.480 more than that, right? We don't have to constantly, 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:23.320 it doesn't have to be transaction, it doesn't 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.519 have to be tasks that you do in order to say 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.639 that I'm showing up as a husband, I'm showing 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.879 up as a father, I'm showing up as a dad, right? 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:32.899 As a son, right? It's not just tasks that you 00:16:32.899 --> 00:16:35.159 do, but it's also just emotional things, being 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.240 present, being able to listen, right? So I think 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.120 those also recognizing that it doesn't have to 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.909 be task oriented. all the time yeah yeah yeah 00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:46.490 and just to recap like that that unlearning can 00:16:46.490 --> 00:16:49.509 open up space for peace right but we know that 00:16:49.509 --> 00:16:52.950 it's not easy and so with your ebook your ebook 00:16:52.950 --> 00:16:55.090 really spoke to that the hitting cost of black 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:58.870 exceptionalism first what inspired you to write 00:16:58.870 --> 00:17:01.429 it and who did you write it for wow so i wrote 00:17:01.429 --> 00:17:05.210 it for the the black man that uh celebrates for 00:17:05.210 --> 00:17:08.309 being a strong one right but he's like quietly 00:17:08.309 --> 00:17:12.000 failing Falling apart, right? I've experienced 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.119 that, right? It's put into language that exhaustion, 00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:16.299 right? Just overwhelming exhaustion. You accomplish 00:17:16.299 --> 00:17:19.259 all of these goals, but constantly get an example 00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.259 for people. There's high functioning, high achieving, 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:25.099 but then you just feel like tired, right? So 00:17:25.099 --> 00:17:28.799 I wrote that specifically for those men. There's 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:30.539 a workbook there, things that you could write 00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:34.680 down, just to find space and find voice that... 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.160 Black excellence doesn't mean that you have to 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.039 exhaust yourself and finding peace and not finding 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.680 guilt like how I talked about that guilt, but 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.319 just finding that balance, that balance in all 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.740 that you do and that desire to overachieve. And 00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:51.079 sometimes that overachievement comes from being 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:52.819 in the space of trauma, whether it's poverty. 00:17:53.439 --> 00:17:55.259 or whatever, right? So he's like, I'm gonna show 00:17:55.259 --> 00:17:57.480 you, I'm gonna do this, right? But then it becomes 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:59.559 exhaustion because you're just pushing, pushing, 00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:02.480 pushing and going and not taking time to pause. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:04.720 And I find that the black men I've been working 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.839 with, been working with them on finding the space 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.279 to pause without guilt. That you can be intentional 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.420 about, this is my time off. And sometimes you 00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:17.799 need to schedule it. And I said, we'll work with 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:19.619 you with that. Like put it in your calendar. 00:18:19.950 --> 00:18:22.369 I'm not doing anything between these hours. Sometimes 00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:24.809 we need we have to start with that. It may seem 00:18:24.809 --> 00:18:27.430 silly, but we have to start with scheduling that 00:18:27.430 --> 00:18:29.710 time and then becomes natural over time. But 00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:32.410 that's where the hidden cause of black exceptionalism 00:18:32.410 --> 00:18:35.990 came from. Those those men and sisters to our 00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:38.829 sisters purchased the book and found it very, 00:18:39.089 --> 00:18:42.269 very valuable just in terms of taking time to 00:18:42.269 --> 00:18:44.190 pause and always having to be the strong one. 00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:49.549 And this is so exhausting. Yeah. Yeah, our our 00:18:49.549 --> 00:18:54.589 day to day doesn't necessarily make room for 00:18:54.589 --> 00:18:57.410 for us to pause for us to reset. That's not how 00:18:57.410 --> 00:19:01.210 capitalism works. Right. Right. And so our commodity 00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:05.680 that we offer capitalism is our bodies. Right 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.779 is our minds and so it's going to take as much 00:19:08.779 --> 00:19:10.960 as they can It's going to extract as much as 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:13.079 they can out of us unless you're intentional 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.380 and you say hey, hold up You know what? I'm using 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:19.160 my sick days. I'm using my personal time. Why 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.400 because you know, I just I income it I just don't 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.660 want to again without the guilt associated with 00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:29.460 it right so you have to and we have to put our 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:32.539 wellness at the forefront because we realize 00:19:32.539 --> 00:19:35.279 these companies do not love us these businesses 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.859 do not love us they will they will extract as 00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:40.220 much as they can can it become difficult when 00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:42.720 we're talking about navigating familial relationships 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.240 and so forth for sure right because when you're 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:47.660 a father when you're a husband when you're a 00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:52.970 partner etc etc you may be asked More right more 00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:55.730 may be required of you, but it should never come 00:19:55.730 --> 00:19:59.650 at the expense of You your survival and you being 00:19:59.650 --> 00:20:02.069 able to live. Yeah and reckon and recognizing 00:20:02.069 --> 00:20:04.990 that those moments too because I think Where 00:20:04.990 --> 00:20:07.609 things occur or things happen whether it be medically 00:20:07.609 --> 00:20:09.470 right or people kind of blow up? It's because 00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:12.049 they've reached their breaking point in and recognize 00:20:12.049 --> 00:20:15.829 it. So I think also having a thermometer and 00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:17.450 recognizing like, well, I'm feeling overwhelmed. 00:20:17.849 --> 00:20:21.029 I think it's time that I need to do this, X, 00:20:21.029 --> 00:20:22.809 Y, and Z to take care of myself. You know, people 00:20:22.809 --> 00:20:24.789 own businesses and things like that. So, you 00:20:24.789 --> 00:20:26.569 know, I work with, you know, business owners, 00:20:26.970 --> 00:20:28.849 thought leaders and things like that. So they 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:31.029 have a lot going on. So it's hard to just say 00:20:31.029 --> 00:20:33.910 no to everything, but recognizing those moments 00:20:33.910 --> 00:20:36.279 where... Okay, I'm gonna take a break today or 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:38.559 I'm gonna take a day off and actually do something 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.039 that I enjoy and And not finding guilt in doing 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:43.660 those things since find that we're not taking 00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:45.380 care of our health I know that you don't play 00:20:45.380 --> 00:20:48.799 with the gym so intentional about those things 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.259 and how important that is Word word you said 00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:54.779 your excellence doesn't have to come at the expense 00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:58.069 of your piece That's that's heavy. And with that 00:20:58.069 --> 00:21:00.250 being said, because we've been talking almost 00:21:00.250 --> 00:21:02.430 abstractly, but we've been talking about others. 00:21:02.490 --> 00:21:04.750 But what does that look like for you right now? 00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:09.769 Right now is finding moments of stillness, like 00:21:09.769 --> 00:21:12.930 whether it be driving in the car with no music 00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:16.369 on. Like I found solace in that. Right. Whether 00:21:16.369 --> 00:21:18.910 it be taking a break in between sessions. Right. 00:21:19.029 --> 00:21:22.430 Not scheduling things so tight. Been saying. 00:21:23.029 --> 00:21:24.630 accommodating, you know, saying like, you know, 00:21:24.630 --> 00:21:28.250 I can't attend that event. And maybe next year 00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:30.450 I could attend. So actually, like being intentional 00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:33.549 about my schedule. So things like that has really 00:21:33.549 --> 00:21:37.970 been monumental. Spending time with family and 00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:40.609 actually doing things, scheduling us to go out 00:21:40.609 --> 00:21:42.049 and having family days and things like that. 00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:47.329 So really prioritizing connection. And even with 00:21:47.329 --> 00:21:49.210 homies like this, sometimes I saw a TikTok called 00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:51.829 Waffle Wednesday, Wednesday Waffle. So you like 00:21:51.829 --> 00:21:53.930 use your phone and you like send like a video. 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.920 of like, yo, how you doing? Send an update. And 00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.380 then I send it to my homies on Wednesdays and 00:21:59.380 --> 00:22:02.240 stuff like that. So really being intentional 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.319 about reaching out to people and connecting. 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.599 I think that's really important because we know 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:08.500 the stuff the studies show with black men and 00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:10.940 as we get older, we start to isolate even more. 00:22:10.940 --> 00:22:13.920 Right. So I think getting the practice of maintaining 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:17.119 good core people around me is really important 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:21.099 with the boundaries and prioritizing peace and 00:22:21.099 --> 00:22:22.920 taking care of my health. Right. Those are those 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:24.670 are the Those are the things that I find really 00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:28.250 helpful. So what has been the response from, 00:22:28.250 --> 00:22:31.150 you said, your family, your family nights, you 00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:33.390 make sure that they're there. What has been the 00:22:33.390 --> 00:22:38.269 response for you focusing on your piece from 00:22:38.269 --> 00:22:42.650 others? So, I mean, my wife is like, yo, you're 00:22:42.650 --> 00:22:44.730 doing too much, you need to calm down. My mother's 00:22:44.730 --> 00:22:48.309 always worried about me, right? So I think they're 00:22:48.309 --> 00:22:50.609 happy when... Oh, you're not doing nothing right 00:22:50.609 --> 00:22:53.329 now. They're happy when I'm just laying down 00:22:53.329 --> 00:22:56.549 doing nothing. It's like sit down. So it's like 00:22:56.549 --> 00:22:59.150 I'm being encouraged to do it. So it's a great 00:22:59.150 --> 00:23:00.930 thing. But it's like good. You don't have nothing 00:23:00.930 --> 00:23:02.690 planned. You know what I'm saying? I'm glad that 00:23:02.690 --> 00:23:04.130 you're chilling. I'm glad that you're sleeping 00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:07.690 because usually I'm up early doing stuff, thinking. 00:23:07.970 --> 00:23:10.490 So it's just like they like when they see me 00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:15.259 being still. So nothing but support. Word. So 00:23:15.259 --> 00:23:19.019 what's one simple reflection or prompt, reflection, 00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:21.640 prompt, or tool from the book that someone watching 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.579 can try? So one thing I want you to reflect on 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:29.900 is where are you performing instead of just being, 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:32.480 right? So that's one of the prompts. Think about 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.200 in all that you do, where you're performing. 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.440 In some area, you're not just present. That may 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.160 be at home, right? So think about that. Where 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:44.119 are you not just? being yourself, which actually 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:47.380 putting on a production as I call it. So really 00:23:47.380 --> 00:23:50.470 assessing that because that's exhausting. And 00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:52.750 I think picking up the e -book, give you some 00:23:52.750 --> 00:23:54.890 tools on that, recognizing it, journaling it 00:23:54.890 --> 00:23:57.690 down, and give you some strategies on how to 00:23:57.690 --> 00:24:00.069 navigate and how to deal with that. Because that's 00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:02.130 what the exhaustion comes into, having to perform 00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:04.670 at work. I have clients talking about having 00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:07.210 to put on, whether it be code switching at work, 00:24:07.569 --> 00:24:09.970 whether having to deal with microaggressions 00:24:09.970 --> 00:24:11.849 at work. I talk about that in the e -book as 00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:14.160 well. And it just weighs on you. right? So you 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:15.920 have to perform, right? And then sometimes when 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.519 you come home, you're exhausted, but then you 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.140 feel like I got to show up for home also, right? 00:24:22.299 --> 00:24:24.279 So now it's just a Broadway production everywhere. 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:29.839 So where can you be your authentic self? I'm 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.380 sitting here asking myself that right now. I 00:24:32.380 --> 00:24:34.279 definitely could be that here, right? No matter 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:36.480 where you might be watching that, I can be that 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.299 here, because I'm definitely going to be. But 00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:40.900 I know of some spaces where I may not be showing 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:43.680 up as my authentic self. I may be performing. 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.480 So I thank you for giving me that prompt to consider. 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.220 Listen, this is time has gone that fast, man. 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:54.740 How can folks support you and stay tapped in? 00:24:55.339 --> 00:24:57.319 All right, so you could catch me the black underscore 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:00.079 therapist on Instagram, you know, I have and 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:01.619 I'm actually coming up with another e -book for 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:03.359 the black case therapy too. So that's going to 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.960 be specifically for black men. And I have the 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.720 hidden cause of black exceptionalism. You could 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:11.700 tap in if you want to, you know, book me to speak 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.799 at your event. I'm building this work and community, 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:17.779 right? So tap in with me and let's do it together. 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:20.599 Listen, man, I want to thank Aaron Muller for 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:22.440 joining me today. And I want to thank you, the 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.240 viewer for tuning in. And remember, When it comes 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:27.539 to men's mental health and wellness, the road 00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:30.539 isn't easy, but it's worth it. Peace.