So 67 of the hashtag You Good Man Men's Wellness
podcast, the first on the Black Media Nexus Network.
Make sure you like, subscribe and comment wherever
you're listening or watching this pod. So for
those who are new to the pod, this is a space
where identifying men have open and honest dialogue
about our wellness. It's an opportunity for us
to exhale. So I welcome you. It's been about
five months since I've last recorded. Be real,
I would tell you where I've been and what I've
been doing if I could remember. For all of us,
it's been a bit of a blur as we navigate the
madness in society. But the beautiful thing is
that we've survived. And my hope for all of us
is that we find moments to live, love, and be
using healthy practices in the midst. And so
for me, one of the practices that I've been using
more of, and I'm gonna be real, I'm resisting
the urge to shame myself and say that I need
to do it more, but it's writing. It has been
a cathartic practice for me. One space that I've
been to fairly recently is ceremonies, a space
for those who identify as black men to convene,
engage, write, and be free. In bringing back
the pot, I knew exactly who I wanted to have
as my first guest, and they are the facilitators
of ceremonies housed under their fellowship of
the Griot's organization, which centers the power
of Black writers and our allies. These brothers
are master storytellers, wordsmiths. Again, y
'all know me for being real. One has questionable
hip hop and television takes at times, but ultimately
they're all around. Good genuine dudes. We have
ality farmer and Donnie Moreland jr. Welcome
fellas. How y 'all feeling? Questionable I'm
just being real man questionable. You said that
and I'm not mad at the wire take I'm not mad
at the wire take for folk who think the wire
is better than top boy We can agree to disagree
there, but but some of your other takes man,
they be I don't know what's happening I'm going
to be honest. I don't know what's happening.
I've never seen Top Boy, but there's no cultural
influence. No memes running around of Top Boy,
no gifts running around. The wire was a moment,
man. You missed that moment because you were
still young. You missed that moment because now
you're trying to catch up. That ain't even a
thing, but thank you for having us. The man we're
here to talk about, that's episode 102. Exactly.
That's episode 100. But Donnie, have you seen
Top Boy? I have not seen Top Boy. I've seen -
What's up with y 'all, man? What's up with y
'all? I have a worst take. And I'll be honest.
I haven't finished season one of The Wire. It
never captured my interest. And I hold that.
I don't say that a lot, but - Clearly, because
we see what happens. We see what happens. It's
a brave space. Name just put out to everybody.
I'm going to share this widely. I wanted to bring
you on because you both are amazing, amazing
storytellers. When I sit and listen to what you
offer, for me, it penetrates deep into my spirit.
And I can't say I can't say I experienced that
in my, when I'm engaging with television, when
I'm engaging with your mainstream writers, it's
something about the level of authenticity that
you both offer in your writing. So first, I wanna
start there. Like your journey as a writer, what
has that been like in... How did you get to the
place where you are now is just being phenomenal
writers. So let's start with with you, Alative.
I see you putting the eyebrows up. Listen, brother,
you don't got to have a publication, you know
what I mean? In that way to be a phenomenal writer
for me, man, because because this is this is
about authenticity. This is about realness and
connecting with with us. And so the way that
you write both you and Donnie, it speaks to just
this this love for. for us as black folk. First,
thank you again, you know, tremendous gratitude
for the comments. For me, storytelling came as
a kid to me as a kid, you know, my mother had
me when she was 14. So I was raised as essentially
as her youngest sibling while being, you know,
the first grandchild to my grandmother. So my
youngest aunt is five years older than me. So
she's like my big sister. But still, I was the
only little kid, right? So I spent a lot of time
with myself. And that time, I spent a lot of
time talking to myself. As I got older, I realized
I was telling stories, right? So I would take,
you know, my hate men figures. and I would have
battles. I would take my baseball cards, my basketball
cards, and I would have battles. I was doing
fantasy sports way back in the mid -80s. I would
take the cards and go into the papers and get
the stats, and I would have my own little drafts,
and I would put them together, and then I would
play the game. So I was telling myself stories,
and as I got older, I started reading really,
really young. My mother likes to say I was two.
the true that is, but the family runs with that
story. But I remember reading a newspaper to
my grandfather because he didn't really know
how to read well. And I know I was doing that
before I ever went to school. Wow. And so that
kind of translated into a love of words for me.
So I would take my aunt's Judy Bloom books and
Beverly Cleary and I would read those books and
then I would just make up my own stories to go
along with them. And then I started writing.
I remember in fifth grade we had an assignment
to write a story, and I wrote the story about
a kid who was riding down a highway. You know,
you get the wind, and you let the wind blow your
hand. I wrote a story about a kid getting his
hand knocked off by a truck, and the hand coming
back to haunt his family. And my class was like,
yo, this is dope. And I kept writing all these
other pieces to it. And I knew then, this is
what I want to do. Now life plays out differently
than when I go to college. I majored in English.
I'm an English teacher. I went and spent a week
in my old middle school. I was like, I ain't
doing this. I ended up working in higher ed at
the same time. I started a blog. I'm writing
that blog for years. I end up doing some other
things online. But I had this full -time job.
I don't have the time to write. And then finally,
I fell ill in 2018. And, you know, for a little
while I was looking like that was going to be
it for me. And all I kept thinking was on that
book, that real book. So I ended up being out
of work that year. And so I just started writing,
started writing. The guy would schedule and put
on my account what I'm going to work on. And
I started developing the writing practice. And
so that's what I've been working on really now
for the last, you know, seven years, seven, eight
years. met Donnie in one of those spaces. And
for some reason, we just connected like there
were other brothers coming every week. But it
was something about his work that attracted me
to him. I was like, I need to get to know him
better on the page and as a man. So we just connected.
Thank you. Thank you for being vulnerable enough
to share about. you know, what you've navigated
family wise, what you've navigated health wise
and how writing has been and seemingly an outlet
for you. Right. And so when we talk about men's
mental health, men's wellness and finding these
practices outside of the those stereotypical
masculine outlets, the gym, those unhealthy vices,
we seemingly found something to to help you not
only process what's happening, but to articulate
it to others, what it is that you've been feeling
and what you've been experiencing throughout
the course of your life. So again, I appreciate
you sharing that. What about you, Donnie? What
has inspired you? What does that journey as a
writer look like for you? Oh, man. I've been
sitting here thinking about... that journey.
I don't think I've ever thought about it in its
entirety. I mean, I've always been artistically
inclined. My mother introduced me to, you know,
all of, I would say, my artistic interests. You
know, she taught me how to draw. She taught me
how to write. She taught me, you know, she introduced
me, you know, a love for music and appreciation
for music, my earliest memories. are Benita Baker's
Potiphar and the Rapture and, you know, David
with Banks Take Five. It was my earliest memories.
That's because she was keen on making sure I
was exposed to as much art as possible growing
up. I was most interested in, you know, drawing
and visual arts up until I would say high school.
You know. going into high school, I would, you
know, I had faced some mental health challenges.
I'd been hospitalized when I was 13. And I needed
an outlet that wasn't, you know, what I thought
I had access to. And on the speech and debate
team in high school, my classmate, the one that
sat right next to me in that class was the author
Brian Washington, or would be the author Brian
Washington. And I remember he he was getting
published then and it inspired me to like sit
down and you know and write and I found a calling
I think for poetry then just you know watching
him and seeing you know how fulfilling it was
for him to not just be published but to have
that outlet. And so I found a website, it's called
Ghetto Soul Poetry. It's no longer around. Neither
are all those poems I wrote back then. But that's
how I got into it. And then by the end of high
school... going to college I had like a terrible
poetry night freshman year in college like just
an atrocious like everyone's just looking at
me like we don't understand a word you just said
brother like it's I say you know what I am I
am done with this it was one of those poetry
nights was just like I can't come back here um
so I put the pen down and I focus on other things
and like, you know, I still wrote like I was
writing, I was writing textbook chapters, you
know, throughout college and, you know, you know,
I was here and there extricately. But I didn't
write creatively, that's why I'm putting that
down. So it wasn't really until after college
that I picked up, you know, creative writing
again. That's only because Josie Pickens, the
cultural educator out here in Houston, she encouraged
me to submit one of my essays that I had written
for a blog post for an organization that I had
called LAB, Love with Cheating Brotherhood, out
here in Houston. This was like 2016, 2017. I
wrote a blog post, she saw it, she was like,
hey, you need to submit this to Black Youth Project.
And it didn't go in one way or the other. I just
was like, I'm not a writer. I can write academically.
I was working on my master's in film studies
at the time. But I'm not a writer, not like that.
And by that time, my love had become film. Like
I said, I was working on a master's degree in
film studies. Filmmaking was my track. And I
couldn't be moved from that. So I think to the
extent that I would write creatively was just
scripts, but I never thought about it as creative
writing. It's like the means to an end in my
storytelling. But then I moved to Minnesota,
you know, in like 2017, 2018. And, you know,
we do things when young, dumb, and in love. So
I moved to Minnesota. I put down all of my dreams
and, you know, needed a job while I was up there.
And I remember, you know, Josie saying, submit
this to Black Youth Project. So I sat down with
the piece and I, you know, trimmed it up and
got in shape and I sent it off. And then they
published that. And then I sent some stuff off
to Gathering of the Tribes. And, you know, I
think one of my proudest moments as a writer
is, I mean, it's a bit morbid, but one of my
pieces, like the last piece that Steve Cannon
published before he passed. And so, you know,
at that point I was like, maybe I can do this.
So I kept, you know, writing. When he got pregnant,
at that point I'm like, okay, I need to really
step it up. And I began working in social service,
but realized on the back end I could write to
make money. But as I was doing it, I began to,
you know, feel a bit impassioned by it. It began
to become more of a creative outlet that, you
know, filmmaking wasn't, because I hadn't picked
up a camera in a while, but I was able to express
myself through essaying in ways that I just couldn't
through a script. And so I stuck with it, you
know, throughout the course of the pregnancy
and then going into COVID. I really amped up,
you know, the work because I think like a lot
of us, you know, I was I was on 10 in terms of
like my political kind of motivations and you
know that that that emotional intensity putting
into that that those um the it was that political
commentary yeah and so just just doing a lot
of writing and then you know due to you know
kind of circumstances outside of my control um
I ended up having to move back to Houston you
know as a single uh as a single parent and um
At that point, everything kind of shifted, like
Rae Spader, they changed management and, I'm
sorry, Blackie Project changed management, Rae
Spader had closed up shop, Gatlinger Tribes,
you know, they weren't accepting anything, they
were going through their own managerial changes.
Like all the channels that I had to submit to,
you know, it kind of closed up. So I was back
in Texas, you know. It's kind of like submitting
things out. It's not getting any feedback and
I was okay I don't know if this is gonna It's
gonna work and I at that time I had published
some short stories I'm just kind of experimenting
and seeing if I could and I was okay I can't
you know, and I got some stuff out there like
you project to the fiction writing But even that
I was like, okay that ain't I'm not gonna You
know, I can't compete with the big dogs and essaying,
you know, I can't get anything published So I
was about ready to hang it up But that's when,
you know, I saw Hoover, who was, you know, at
the time, I think, creative director, I want
to say, at New York Writers Coalition, and he
posted my brother to brother, the workshop that
I was even not met at. And it was like the first
home I had, you know, as a writer, like I had
attended workshops, New York Writers Coalition
workshops prior, and a few others, but then I
had a home, and now I had a home. with, you know,
other black, male -identified folks who you just
wanted to fellowship around words. And you think
similarly, Fatif, like, meeting him, and even
though we didn't, like, talk and communicate,
his storytelling and things he wrote about, for
me, was like, I'm gonna stay here, of course,
for the brothers, but for him, because, like,
we speak a similar language, and I need to get
to know this cat. And then, you know, but I still
wasn't looking at writing. It's kind of like
a profession. It was like, I'm in social service.
This is just something I do at this point as
a hobby. I wasn't making any money from it anymore.
But, you know, during a break, it's when, you
know, the brother, you know, kind of seasonal
break, and you know, TV hit me up and said, hey,
let's keep writing. And, you know, that's kind
of the origins of fellowship with Rios, but also
you know, us doing that thing, it gave me a drive
again to find my voice. Everything we've done
is like opened up access for me to make the writing
is like, oh wait, no, this is what we do. So
yeah, long story short, that's, that's, you know,
that's how I came to the pin, you know, four
times. It's interesting, you know, when I hear
the parallels between you and Al Latif, just
how this variety, this process of writing started
fairly young. And I juxtapose that with my experience
with writing, where and I want to say a lot of
a lot of children, ultimately, right, especially
in these failing public schools, where this free
writing isn't a thing, right? Everything is about
the test, the test, the test, right? These state
exams that they're all taking. And so there's
opportunity to explore, much like artists, right?
Where it's just like, if you're, you know, coloring,
right? I have a friend of mine who, usually I
have it in the background, but I have books right
here. A friend of mine, he's a phenomenal writer,
Justin Wellington. called the the blind artist.
He has one eye. And so he used to love drawing
when he was younger. Right. And ultimately he
ended up stopping because he has some family
tragedies and he and he picked it back up in
his mid 20s. All of us. Right. I have a I have
a three year old son. He loves coloring. Right.
He loves drawing. But if he's not the next amazing
painter, Then we typically stop right and so
we find kids who are amazing Storytellers when
you sit and just listen to them tell stories
about different things or they may write write
about fantasy and things like that if if they're
not Elites quote -unquote elite in that way,
then it's just Larry. You got to hang this up
You got to go find something else to do that
the creativity of the youth is Stunted within
the public school system Right. Especially when
we're talking about black and brown boys. And
so I just find it interesting that this is something
that you picked up early. I don't think I literally
picked up writing just to write until I had my
little incarceration stint. You know, when I
was at at a university that I won't name. Right.
I needed something to do to pass the time for
those those little 48 hours because it got real.
And so I'm just amazed at how you pick this up
early, right? You recognize it to be something
that was important to you. And even if you might've
gotten away from it throughout the course of,
you know, life -lifing, you still found your
way back. And so I guess my question is, how
vital is and was the practice of writing for
your development? as a Black boy who would then
transition into being Black men? I think the
fortune of being a few years younger than the
two of you. So grew up in a time in school where
things were a little bit different, right? Where
it wasn't all about the test. I grew up in gifted
and talented programs where our gifts were kind
of the reason we were there. And so we had the
time to kind of hone those things. Like if you
were a science and math kid, you went into spaces
to work on those things. You know, I was an English
and history good kid, so I can go into spaces
and do those things and do research papers, all
kinds of things. So I was given the space to
create one page because It was the California
achievement test for us then. That wasn't a concern
for me, right? I did it first, second grade.
I'm testing sixth grade level. So our class doesn't
have to worry about those tests. So we were given
the space to do things much differently, right?
By the time I get to the middle school, they're
starting to cut those programs out of the city.
I grew up in New York, Jersey, and they're just
putting kids all in the same class together so
while you have those who are advanced now they're
in classes with students who are two or three
grade levels below and so you have these young
really a lot especially a lot of boys black boys
who now are being stifled in the classroom because
they aren't allowed to express themselves academically
or creatively because the teachers are not even
focused on them. You're going to be okay, let
me go over here. And you're just kind of just
sitting there, like not being challenged at all,
which means that you're not being stimulated,
right? Which means that now you're just kind
of going through the motions and aren't given
the opportunity to say, all right, I need assignments,
I need topics and books and things that are going
to challenge me, which allows me to think on
a different level. which allows me to now be
creative and oh I like to write so now I can
write poetry right my poetry starts to grow a
little bit because oh I'm introduced to Langston
Hughes now right I'm not just reading this textbook
I'm reading Hughes I'm reading Claude McKay these
were the things that we were doing in fourth
and fifth grade and you know we're breaking down
you know how life for me ain't been no crystal
stair. And so it was giving us a higher level
of thinking. It was giving us a higher level
of thinking, which allowed me to go home and
work on things. Like, I'm mimicking the poems.
Around the same time, you know, Eric B and Rakim
are out. And, you know, I'm listening to Rakim,
the way he's doing with words, and Big Daddy
Kane, and Karis Wan, and Chuck D. Oh, I can do
this too. So I'm writing raps. I'm writing stories,
you know. And then I'm going to school with them.
you know, doing research papers and things like
that. And so my creativity was stimulated in
the classroom. And it allowed me to say, oh,
I can do this thing too and all these other things.
And I'm learning history because we had after
school programs that, you know, we've learned
Swahili, all kinds of things. And so I'm able
to incorporate all of that into my storytelling
as a kid. And those are the same found those.
That's the foundation of the stories that I write
down. Like a lot of those characters are coming
back. Like we had a brother that had a school
program named Baba Saleed. He came in, he taught
us martial arts, he taught us discipline, he
took us into classes, taught us history. And
so he's a person that I see when I'm writing
stories. So he's like that elderly figure who
comes back. And so that's how I learned. how
to tell stories, how to be a storyteller, and
that's the foundation that I've carried with
me. I've never stopped writing. I mean, didn't
take it seriously for a couple years, you know,
my mid -20s. I was getting some money, I was
working, so, you know, under the strip clubs,
chilling. But what I started doing was actually
writing an email to my friends the next morning,
like, detailing what we were doing the night
before, like, things that happened, my crazy
things. And then that became, oh, I just started
riffing on what was happening in the world. And
people started forwarding my emails to their
friends. And people are emailing me like, yeah,
I want to be on the mailing list. I'm like, what
mailing list? I send this to eight people. Next
thing I know, I'm sending it to 120 every day.
Next thing I know, hotmail is like you're over
your limit. I was like, oh, let me go create
a blog. And so it was always happening. It just
looked different. You know what I'm saying? Yeah,
I'm glad you brought that up. And I'm glad you
infused hip hop into this. Because then that
had me circling back. Because as I posed the
question, I talked about this formal setting
of being in the schools. And so when I'm taking
a step back, so many black and brown boys have
written raps. We don't even necessarily in me,
right? It could slip our minds that, yo, this
is writing. This is storytelling. I can't stand
drill rat. Right. As you know, I can't stand
it is extremely violent, but they're telling
a story from start to finish in a way that makes
sense for them. Right. And the prose that's authentic
to them. And so, yeah, I, you know, it has me
again, reflecting. on how even my idea of acceptable
writing is shaped, right? Because you have these
young brothers out here, they're writing. Now
ultimately, when we talk about that, how healthy
is it? Right now, we can have a conversation
about that. But ultimately, this is a form of
writing. This is a form of expression, even if,
you know, somebody old like me is undesirable.
So I find it undesirable. So I appreciate you
for bringing that up in the influence that hip
hop has had in in your understanding and your
practice of writing. So how about you, Donny?
What has how has writing aided in your development
transitioning from a black boy into a black man?
Well, no, that's an interesting question, I think,
because, um, you know, as Alative indicated,
I grew up in a different era. We're in like school,
especially me. By the time I moved to Texas,
I had moved like six or seven times. And then
while in Texas, you know, I moved from Baytown.
to Katie and neither one of those schools had
like cultural competency initiative so you know
they weren't worried about the black kids in
the classes you know what were you learning you
know the influence of the material on our education
and cultural diversity development so I kind
of had to like pick pick and choose okay or more
so like I had to make those breadcrumbs a feast.
So like by the time I got to like 10th grade
when we was running in Hurston, which like the
only book we read for a Black author, 10th grade,
like this was one of the greatest books ever.
I still have that copy. Because it was like the
first time someone was speaking the language
of my grandmother's like in school, you know.
But it was like that, it was like picking your,
you're doing your best. For me, like, I think
subconsciously, I do my best to find myself in
those small pockets that were allowed, you know,
a glimpse into who we were through curriculum.
There was like one creative writing course I
ever took in high school. It was like, I think
it was sophomore year, maybe, sophomore, junior
year. And it was like the first time, like, an
educator had affirmed my intellectual product,
like, I can't remember her name. I don't remember
the class. I don't remember what I wrote, but
I do remember her, you know, keeping me up after
class and saying like, this is really, really
good. Like, please keep it this. And it didn't
happen after that in high school. It didn't happen
before that. It was like that isolated moment.
So for me, in terms of like writers and writing,
my kid is having a blast over there. Watch this
boy in five square pants. For me, in terms of
writing, It's funny, like bringing up hip hop
is important because like that, even though I
didn't write raps, if you hear my work, you know,
this is an eternal musicality that comes from
the amount of hip hop that I consumed growing
up. For better or worse, like I had memorized
all of Snoop Dogg's first album, like all of
Def certificate, I memorized all of Pac's work.
going into high school and just like, and then
I grew up in the internet era. So we had, you
know, YouTube and who was Napster. So I'm just
consuming all of this hip hop from around the
world. That was a big hip hop cat. Like, you
know, and so he just kept albums out. Got to
listen to them all. And then, like, I went to
go seek that out because the stories that were
being told, you know, like Scarface is my favorite
MC just because of his storytelling proficiency.
And like it taught me that like, I think subconsciously
taught me, oh wait, my words are a vehicle, kind
of like out of my shame, like out of my depression,
like my words can be that. And so for me, you
know, it was like everything outside of school,
observing, consuming, you know, the craft from
others that by the time like I began to take
poetry like seriously, like outside of this being
something extracurricular, like I had the toolkit
because I had been consuming so much hip hop
from so many places, you know, so many lyrics,
so many stories, so many perspectives, so many,
you know, political identities and whatever have
you, I've been sharing so much that I was, I
was prepared. Word, word. Now, listen, I appreciate,
I appreciate both your, you know, both your stories.
It resonates, right? Your, your journey, it resonates,
you know, with me and thinking about, again,
the influence of of hip hop, the the challenges
that we navigate as black boys and black men
to to even get to the point where we are today.
Right. And still have a practice that is meaningful,
that remains circling back, I said, you know.
I first remember like creative writing when during
my little stint at 19 for 48 hours in jail, but
then I had when you brought up allot if you brought
up likes to use I had to go back to ninth grade
and Listening to get hip -hop influence listening
to alias four -page letter and it was this sister
I was digging her and I was like, all right,
what can I do? I went and got This I went to
the library. I got Paul Lawrence Dunbar's poetry.
I took something and copied it word for word.
You know what I'm saying? So I had about five,
six pages. I gave it to the homie Jameer Rittenberg.
I said, yo, get this to her because they ride
the same cheese bus. You gave it to her. I hear
from her, you know, he was still we went to school.
We graduated. I was a little salty. You know,
she ended up being like a close friend for like
a few years when we would go to like different
poetry events. And she was like, yeah, I got
this letter. I got the letter that you got. It
was it was nice. It was sweet. We laughed about
it. She was like, yo, you know what she was navigating
during that time. Right. And again, we get so
stuck oneself. All right, and what we're feeling,
what we're experiencing, we'll forget that others
are experiencing life as well. So yeah, that
was my first foray into the - Work that shit
out on your own, but hit me back. Word, word.
So you both brought up the origins of Fellowship
of the Griots, where you two met at, I believe
it was Brother to Brother. So you met at brother
to brother. So what was it about that experience
and about one another where you're like, listen,
we need to create something. And I want to create
this for you. I know you said you're both fond
of one another's work, but what is it that you
noticed as far as was it any any gaps in the
literary world when it comes to black folk in
spaces and community for us to convene? Like,
what was truly the inspiration behind the creation,
the creation of Fellowship of the Griots? I could
tackle that first. So, I mean, I think everything
has been fairly organic. Um, you know, it started
out as, you know, just an option for us to write
on Saturdays. Uh, that was the initial sort of
ask, you know, LTP texting me. I was outside
of it. I think it was Pizza Hut. Kind of the
play and how rent was going to get paid. And
then I get this text and was like, Hey, brother,
let's keep writing. I was like, let's do it.
We had three writers, myself, Tief, and another
writer out of Houston. And then, you know, he
began to invite folks from his writing cohorts,
the folks that I knew began to come and all of
a sudden we had this community that just was
growing. And by the time we decided to move forward
with an event, which is called Communion. which
is a public reading opportunity for artists in
our spaces, we realized like, wait a minute,
you know, actually it was the advice of another
member of ours is like, hey, y 'all have more
than just a workshop. Like you have other offerings,
like this could be more than that. And so by
the time we said and realized that was what they
needed to. we need to consider ourselves as an
organization, you know, beyond just this individual
workshop at the time, not as weekend words, still
weekend words, but we needed a banner. And so
we, you know, just surveyed the community, different
title ideas or different, yeah, different banner,
title ideas, and the word fellowship came, coming
back, we all kept coming back with a fellowship
degree of ours. What was the other name? And
then we found out somebody else. Oh, man. It
was like that was gathering. Gathering of the
griot. Yeah, they had like, you know, I've never
I've never missed out on them. But, you know,
we wanted to be respectful of another black space.
I'm not going. Yeah. You know, you know, colonize
the joint. Right. No. So it's like, let's, you
know, we could be creative and come up with something
else. So, you know, with fellowship, the griot
is never. every program from ceremonies to you
know a place to put the period and communion
and even wicked words is a response to as you
mentioned like gaps that can be filled and less
so about craft more so about community like what
do we need from one another in the spaces that
we inhabit So that's what we think about first,
who's in our spaces, and what do they need, and
there we build out, you know, our programming.
But everything has been organic, it's been a
response to community, like listening to the
needs of those who are in the space, and our
needs as writers too, but, you know, being attentive
and aware of who comes in our spaces, and, you
know, what we can, you know, offer them. How
about you, Alati? Initially, it was Just a response
to my own selfish needs, right? Danny and I found
ourselves in a Saturday space that lasted an
hour. But it left a lot to be desired about what
it could look like and what it could be. And
so I said, yo, let's try this. And then as we've
continued to grow and more people have entered
the space and tell us how important it is, not
just for their writing lives, in many cases,
for their lives. It's like, yo, we got something
here. And for me, of course, my day job, mobile
access, right? Access. And so I was like, we
have something here. And we have the ability
to provide people with access to things that
they don't get normally, or things that may cost,
right? I went to three or four retreats last
year. I probably spent $20 ,000. that people
cannot do that. Yeah. And so, we can provide
them with those same type of experiences for
free or at a minimum cost. We're doing a great
thing. And then, you know, I've been fortunate
enough to to to those folks and you know, who
I love and who love me and we can provide them
access to to craft talks and you know, and other
type of events. at no cost and it's like what
we're doing is we're providing access to a community
of people who love to tell stories who love to
tell their story right their own narrative and
we're doing it in an affirming loving space each
of our spaces follows the same the same theory
affirmation right affirmation only and that doesn't
wonder to you because you go into the MFH or
you go into you know some of these workshops
and fellowships and retreats and your work is
knocked down and it almost makes you feel like
I don't want to do this shit anymore but to find
a space where people look like you talk like
you come from place you come from or may may
look like you in different type of spaces and
they tell you yo I love this line right here
this was dope I saw myself that does wonders
for you as a writer. And so any gap we're filling
is really in the soul. Sit with that for a second.
Nah, legitimately. And I can attest to that,
right? Yeah, I was on... I was on, I guess when
folk hear this, it will now be about two weeks,
two or three weeks. We had Casey Layman on on
ceremonies and we didn't get an opportunity to
share just based off some time constraints. But
what I wrote was something regarding my daughter.
The prompt was about a daily practice. And I
wrote about. a practice that I have with my daughter
where now I kiss her on the head, right? She
does it as I say, hey, give me a kiss. She's
older now. She's a teenager. She's 16. So she'll
put her head out. And for me, she's been doing
that now for about five or six years. And that's
a practice that is is so meaningful to me. But
I was able to truly explore. why that was meaningful
to me. I was able to sit in and reflect on it
being, you know, partially about her transition
from a from a young child to a to a young woman
and her having body autonomy and various things.
Right. And so it helped me understand that. And
for me, it was it was soothing. To to my spirit
to where I used to get frustrated where it's
just like No, but like I saw her today, right?
She's sick. I'm still gonna kiss you on your
head. I'll kiss the flu But it's just like now
this is our thing You know, this is our thing
and it probably be our thing until you know,
I transition, right? But I bring that up just
to how it does speak to to the spirit and the
work that you both Are doing in the space that
that you provide? And how affirming it can be
and with that being said And you both have alluded
to it, but how how? important is storytelling
to understanding one's mental health, understanding
one's identity for those who subscribe to masculinity,
specifically just being a pod for anybody who
identify as being a man to masculinity, which
I just look at being a full human being. How
does storytelling offer insight into these areas
from your perspective? I think authentic storytelling
is the key, right? Because we can tell ourselves
all kinds of stories. Like, man, I was out and
I was killing. You know, they was all loving
me and this, that. Third, I was okay. The real
thing is I was miserable and I was, you know,
and I was losing my money. Like, you know, you
can tell yourselves different types of stories.
So being able to tell yourself your own story
authentically, really does a lot to centering
who you are, right? And help you identify where
your gaps are, where your strengths are. Where
are the ways I can grow? Who's my real friends?
Who can support me? Because when I was down,
this person held me up, right? And so I think
learning to tell your authentic story is the
optimum importance. How about you, Don? I think
I'll second that. I think the thing about writing
as a practice is that it's just one of the most
isolated artistic practices one could undertake.
In that, I think there is a power to, and this
is of course coming off of us talking about the
importance of community, but even in community,
when you're on that page, whether you're sitting
at your laptop or, you know, notepad or, you
know, whatever have you, it's you and you. And
only, you know, if you're telling the truth.
There are plenty of people, I talk about this
all the time, like there's plenty of times I
come to the page masked up, like, and I'm talented
enough to get by, but I also know how that feels.
Like I didn't, I didn't commit. And I've called
myself out on that, on the page. So yeah, it's
a thing where like, you know, you can lie to
me, but you can't lie to yourself. Even when
you think you're doing the best job at it, like
you can't lie to yourself. The body knows and
ultimately does the body know depending on, because
it's all synergistic flow in my opinion. So yeah,
just authenticity. The enemy of masculinity,
authenticity. And storytelling is also a record,
right? And so it's a record of a life lead, of
a moment that you had, of a legacy that you're
trying to build. So you're also not just telling
the story for here and now, but you're telling
that story for posterity. And so it's identifying
who you want to be remembered as. When I go and
people speak of me, they're going to tell you
who I was to them. And all those stories will
come together. And it will build my legacy. That's
also what storytelling does. And I think people
consider it for the moment. But it is really
a record, because if we weren't telling stories,
how would we know where we come from? If the
original grills weren't telling the stories,
how would we have held on to our heritage and
our culture? How would we have known how to get
by, how to get over? So my final question is
regarding just like practical strategies and
tools for folk who want to use storytelling.
or use the narrative as a therapeutic or empowerment
tool. So as a therapist, especially working with
brothers who are navigating their father wound,
something I always recommend is for them to write
their father a letter, whether their father is
alive, whether their father has transitioned,
whether you send it or not, that's completely
up to you, whether you give it to them, whether
you burn it, no matter what you do, right? but
to get out these thoughts, feelings, and emotions
regarding this relationship. So what practical
strategies can you both offer with regards to
using narrative as a therapeutic or empowerment
tool for brothers? You say it right in the name,
right? It's an approach that you all use, narrative
therapy, right? Yeah. you know, using that to
tell a story to help you navigate your traumas,
your, your, you know, some of your shortcomings,
some of your anxieties, you know, journaling.
Back in, you know, Ghostface's first album came
out, man, you know, Cappadonna said, every evening,
I have a by myself meeting. Right? Took it as,
and I heard it, I was like, that's dope shit.
But he took, he was spending time with himself.
I tell guys, oh, you know what? I could journal.
That's what I by myself mean. I could journal.
And so therapeutically, it gets it out. And it
can look different ways. It can look like you
get home and you get in your driveway. You take
that five to seven minutes to decompress and
get all the shit out of you. Same way you wipe
your feet before you walk in the house. You kind
of get that out. And it gives you a chance to
process today. If you need to get mad at yourself
or something for two minutes, do that. And then
you move on, move forward. And so to me, the
strategy is learning how to tell the story of
the challenges of that with a professional. I'm
married to a therapist by trade. I know the things
that she works with people, you know, and I'm
able to, fortunately for myself, I've been able
to keep, you know, stay on the positive side
of my mental health. But I also know some tools
and tips that I can use if necessary. Like, I
know when I'm too angry, but I run off of anger
for the most part. But I know when it gets too
much. I know at that point I need to sit down,
take a break, I'll go book a trip, I'll go to
the movies, you know. those types of things for
you know go to the movies more practical than
booking a trip but you know but i journal i go
sit and listen to music i listen to stevie wonder
like stevie brings me into a space where i can
be into the music because in many cases he's
going to speak to me right yeah and his other
artists do the same thing you know to find what
it is for you that that brings you into you know
that center What about you, Don? Um, yeah, I
mean, anything I say here, this is coming from
the ideal, because there's certainly no deficits
in my in my practice, I need a journal more.
But for me, it's reading, right? Like, it's,
it's reading with the intention to learn about
what's possible in narrative. finding books,
and a lot of brothers, you know, brothers read,
they say, what are you reading? Are you reading
fiction? Are you reading poetry? Or if you're
reading nonfiction, what kind of nonfiction is
it? They branch outside of just, you know, the
laws of power and, you know, books of the 40
laws of power and books that kind of center,
you know, financial literacy or, you know, kind
of like... focus on protecting the masculine
ideal identity and branch out in the books that
to do with, you know, the interior and, you know,
like I said, the father wound and, you know,
managing one's anger or managing one's emotional
life relationships beyond just kind of the superficial.
I mean, for me, it was it was Chris Abani's dog
woman that taught me if any book taught me how
to write poetry is Chris Abani's dog woman. So
much so that I got a tattoo on my arm, like,
the cover. And it's because, like, I learned
what it means to go deep reading that book. I
mean, you have, you know, canceling is heavy
behind you, right? We've had them on twice. If
anyone in memoir, in our fiction, teaches you
how to go deep, it's gonna be him, right? But,
like, seeking literature with the intention of
learning what's possible in narrative and not
emulating that. but considering like okay what
techniques are they doing to tap into you know
the power of that sentence like the power of
that paragraph and then what does that mean for
you as the writer right how what does that mean
for you and your practice as a writer and how
can you take that to the page um so i think reading
for me is as much as important as a practice
um in that respect Damn, I skipped right over
reading, Mike. I don't run a bath and take a
book with me. I gotta say, it's the ideal. It's
the ideal. Yeah, yeah. Word, word. So with that
being said, I want to shift gears, add some levity
to the pod. Um, even though again, there's no
trust me. There's nothing wrong with us being
deep, especially as brothers That's the whole
purpose of all of this, but I do want to add
some a little bit of levity to this So I want
you both, you know, I wasn't I was about to send
you the question, but I was like nah Nah, i'm
not going to do it. I want you all to give me
your top four writers That have inspired you
Top four writers see cuz cuz five, right? That
number five is just like four and five are usually
like interchangeable. You know what I mean? So
I wanted to make it a little a little tough Who
are your top four writers that have inspired
you? And so we're gonna we're gonna start with
you we will start with you Donnie cuz you look
like you you going through it right now like
That's tough. I mean, one is like... And before
you go, for your number one, say just a little...
Oh, we got a rank? Yeah. Well, no, no, no. We're
not for rank, because that's going to be tough,
right? That's going to be tough. But no, for
one of them, just give a little bit of reasoning
as to why. All right. One of them is super recent.
I mean, as in the last two years, but it's had
such an impression on me. I can't not talk about
George Jackson. specifically blood in my eye.
I got Throes. I mean, I mentioned, you know,
the eyes of watching God. That is such an impression
on me in just terms of like what books can be,
what writers can do. Oh man, it's too, that is
tough. I'll go with, I'll go with Chris Ibani.
I mean, I don't think. I mean, poetry is subjective,
you know, in terms of appreciating some love,
but for me, I just don't think there's a more
technically sound and proficient poet, you know,
for me, for the kind of poetry I like. And then
there's gonna be Baldwin. I mean, that's the
goat, that's the god, that's the chief, that's
everything. You know, the minute I read Another
Country, I knew then, I was like, it don't...
It's this. It's this. We'll go with those four.
All right, all right. You ain't struggled with
the four. You ain't struggled with the four.
What about you, Alla T? So my four will look
a little different. Behind me, there's an entire
shelf of Walter Mosley books. So I'll go with
Mosley. I will go with Donald Goins. When I was
about 16 or 17, I would go to the Barnes and
Noble or Borders each time I got my hands on
money and I'd buy one or two books. And I started
with the two of them because they really taught
me that it was okay to write about Black life,
right? And not just a way where it was pretty
and also not stereotypical, but authentic, right?
It would be easy to say Baldwin, of course, there's
a huge portrait of Baldwin behind me, but Donnie
already used that one, so I'm not gonna say Baldwin.
Judy Blume, of course. Yeah, because as a kid
coming up reading her stories, writing about
kids, it was really important for me to, I didn't
see myself in the stories, but I was able to
see children. having these very outlandish experiences.
Yeah. Um and so we'll go there and contemporary.
I'll throw some contemporary in there. It's easy
to say, but I'll say Jasmine Ward. Okay. Jasmine
Ward. Uh huh. Like her storytelling is otherworldly.
You don't just come out and win national book
awards like in the at the rate she has and not
be the dopest living writer that's out there
right so once again uh more authentic depictions
of black life you know black southern life i
have a very different experience and lens but
yeah i would go with those for balloon moseley
goings and work word word that's dope i'm not
gonna give four I'm not gonna do that. So I'm
glad y 'all, because y 'all actually named two
people in mine. So Jesmyn Ward just started reading
her. And Baldwin, of course, he's a phenomenal
brother. I think that was really like my foray
into reading. We talk about the importance within
the practice of writing is reading. For me, I
really started reading It's 2025, maybe about
2018, 2017 when I started going to Uncle Bobby's
and folk are like, Phil, you got all these degrees.
And I'm like, listen, I can I can write for academia.
That's you know, that's nothing that didn't require
me really to read, you know, or if I did read,
I'm not reading full chapters. I'm not, you know,
I'm able to do enough to get past. And so for
me, once I really got into reading, I noticed
the quality of my writing. it got better. I noticed
the quality of my life got better, right? And
just in this practice of reading and writing.
So that's dope. That's dope. That's huge, right?
Reading. Yeah. And I'm glad Donnie spoke on it
earlier. He's like, yeah, it can't just be reading
the 48 miles of power. All right, what is it?
Think rich, think rich, think rich or rich or
something like no shade to people who use them
do whatever you gotta do to stimulate your mind,
but it's so it's a world outside of as Donnie
put it right the this masculine paradigm that
all of these these types of books reinforce.
It's all about dominance, right? It's all about
being the richest, the strongest, the most, you
know, the most mindful all these other things.
It's like, read some fiction. Right learn that
it's okay to smile and breathe and have fun and
to those off into these fantasy breath like it's
okay All right, you ain't gotta be the hardest
nigga all the time. You ain't gotta be styles
P everywhere you go Yeah, right what she say
I'm harder than concrete, you know, it was just
like it was a dope bar, you know It's just like
nah, you know, you don't have to live that way
because your insides are gonna corrode from that,
you know Listen, this has been this has been
a dope conversation. I appreciate you brothers
pulling up to have this conversation with me
to tell us a little bit about your journey as
individuals, as well as your journey as a duo
with regards to fellowship. of the griots and
so with that being said what do you all have
coming up with regards to fellowship of the griots
how can they how can they reach you how can folk
participate and also because i do want folk to
to have a actual tangible takeaway from this
if you can offer a prompt write a prompt for
somebody who for somebody who's listening and
they're like yeah you know i want to write i
feel like writing something can you offer a prompt
to to get them started As far as what we have
coming up, I am literally hosting a space right
now while we're in here. So like we have people
who come and write with us every Thursday night
in our coworking group, which you were like the
inspiration behind. They've been there forever.
You ain't got to tell me, you know? Yeah. I know
where my snitches get no, no, no. No, you worry,
worry, worry. Now, hold, that's holding me accountable,
right? That's what that, that's what that is.
So, I appreciate that. That's one of the things
we have coming up. Donny, you wanna go through
it? Uh yeah, I mean, in order to, you wanna follow
us? There's a few, few avenues. Uh we're primarily
on Instagram. So, you can look up Fellowship
Degrills on Instagram. If you want to get in
contact with us, email us at fellowship .grios
.outlook .com. We do have a monthly newsletter.
We often do update to our email chain as well.
We do have a Facebook this upcoming month. February,
we get back to posting on there regularly. We
have also a Linktree. So if you go to Linktree
and look up Fellowship Degreos, you'll find us
there as well, along with all of the updates
on events in Events Central. As you ask for a
prompt. A prompt, yeah, a quick prompt. But they
gotta be not intricate, sophisticated. I mean,
you know, we talking about the brothers. So the
first prompt that I put into the group chat in
the last ceremonies was to write a story about
a black man who designates his sexual liberation
as holy. So again, write a story about a black
man who designates his sexual liberation as holy.
Yeah, y 'all have fun with that, Johnny. Yeah,
that's heavy. That's heavy, no pun intended.
You know, the book behind me. Listen, man, I
appreciate both you brothers for pulling up.
I thank you for offering me your time, your wisdom,
and your inspiration to continue in this practice
of writing. So thank you both. Thank you, Brian.
Thank you. Appreciate it. Great conversation.
Thanks for the invitation.