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Hello, everyone. As usual, I have yet another amazing guest on the show. I think I'm just

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like network filled with the most amazing people. 99 Dev Problems show here this morning

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in the United States, but Tejas for you, it is a different time of day. So what time of

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day is it for you? And I'd love to have you introduce yourself.

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Yeah, it's 5pm here in Berlin, Germany. And I'm honored to join the show with you, Tessa.

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I'm Tejas Kumar. I've been building on the web for over 20 years at places like Roussel,

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Spotify, Zeta and more. And today I'm an AI developer relations engineer, data stacks,

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where it's, look, it hasn't been a year yet, but it's the best job I've ever had. I mean,

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I get to do research in AI, and I get to teach people how to get the most out of AI. And

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we build tools to make that possible. So part of it is teaching people the tools, but part

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of it is also like, Hey, how do I chat with a PDF like in a decent way? You know, so it's

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just, it's a lot of fun.

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That sounds super fun. Honestly, I have this like project that I'm like chasing down where

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I want to put like, essentially like insights that I have into sort of like a agent or LLM

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like model that you can chat with it. So I might have to tap your brain on that when

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I start diving into that project a little bit more. It sounds like you get the beautiful

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pleasure of experimenting and learning all of that while getting paid, which is like extremely

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amazing.

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Yeah. And it's also it's getting paid to also to learn because then I have to teach and

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the teaching is a lot of fun. Like we get to do workshops around tools like astra, Lang

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Flow, Lang flows are like main AI tool that I think it's a noble mission where we just

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democratize AI. Like it's taking this thing that people are afraid of. Like there's a

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ton of people who are like, I don't know Python. I didn't go to university. I don't know linear

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algebra and they're like, I can never do AI. And we're like, no, no, no, you can't hear

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here's Lang Flow. It's drag and drop. It's low code. Like there's nothing to be afraid

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of here. Just and we walk them through it. Right. And so that's, yeah, that's the part

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that I that I enjoy. And as a consequence, like it also just adds value to the company

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because then people use Lang Flow and they like our capitalization is the removal of

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their imposter syndrome. I think that is honestly, that is probably the best work that somebody

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could do. At least I feel like, right? I know that as engineers, like, you know, we have

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a lot of opinions and things that we like to do. But at the end of the day, I think

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more than anything, it's, it's so clear to me, like how much developers enjoy helping

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other developers alongside of like engaging in spending time with them. And so what a

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beautiful way to give back to a company in like such an incredibly meaningful way, obviously

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for, you know, bottom line and such, but being able to really like engage with your

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peers like that. Yeah. And what's, what's especially rewarding is like, yes, meeting

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and teaching developers, but I find even like meeting and teaching and equipping not developers,

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but people who are like afraid of being developers, you know, people who are like, Oh, I don't

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know if I can even call myself a developer. And we get to go in and be like, no, no, you

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can believe me. And they go like, wait, but like, I'm using Lang Flow and I'm just dragging

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and dropping some stuff. Yeah. But you're developing a solution. And they go like, what?

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So I'm a developer. Yeah, you are. And that's, I mean, you can't, that's just so cool.

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That is incredibly powerful. I had the beautiful blessing to teach over 300 women to code in

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Minneapolis a few years ago, first to my career. Yeah, it was amazing. It was through

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Girl Developed the organization. Previous to, unfortunately, they're shutting down,

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of course. But that was, I know, that was the most amazing part of it was like seeing

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the look on their face when they're like, Oh my gosh, I just wrote code. Like I'm a developer.

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And then the like second most amazing part was seeing them go out and actually get a

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job, like taking those skills that they learned in an HTML or intro to JavaScript class and

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like expanding and then now they're getting employed. So that honestly is to be incredibly

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rewarding, not only helping your peers, but also, you know, giving someone like this, this

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empowerment and equipping them with skills they didn't previously have.

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Yeah, I think a big part that continues like right now. So a lot, a lot of people are starting

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conversations this year, Tessa, with, with the phrase 2025 is the year of AI agents.

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Like this phrase is everywhere. And AI itself is such a, I'd say new, relatively topic that

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sort of exploded in late 2022, right? Whereas things like a reactive been around for over

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10 years, but agent AI is new, but agents even more so. And, and I think it's very interesting

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that one, it's just not at least now it's slowly starting to become a well defined term.

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But previously it was not like people were talking about agents and they were all kinds

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of different like I remember I was at a meetup once and somebody was saying, Hey, we built

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this agent and so on. It was just a like a custom GP a feature of open AI is charging.

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It was a custom GPT with like a knowledge base. It was not agent and it couldn't, it

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couldn't perform tasks, but this word because it was so nebulous and nascent was, was just

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misused. And I think there's danger there because it can amplify the imposter syndrome

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of other people, right? Like somebody says agent this agent that and then the other party

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maybe feels especially, and I've seen this most commonly with women and people from minorities

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who will feel like, Oh, I should maybe know what they're talking about. But I don't. So

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I'm going to pretend, you know, and part of my job with Deverell is to be like, here's

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the working definition of an AI agent from this 2024 Google paper. And also here's what

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open AI just defined as an agent yesterday as they announced their new operator. And

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so I get to like do this research study and then, and then really dismantle this imposter

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syndrome of like, this is what an agent is. These are the sources. And now we can actually

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teach you how to build them, right? Using Langflow and things that we make. But that,

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I mean, that's the, that's the secret sauce is like, you take something that is so scary

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AI agents. Oh my gosh, what are they? Can I make one? And we go like, yes. And here's

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what they are, you know, I think like, like bringing, bringing order to the chaos and

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people's minds, I think is so, so key for this role.

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Mm hmm. I fully agree. I fully agree. Actually, my first developer advocate role came after

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my girl development experience and all that teaching. And it's actually why I got the

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role is that there was connections, people knew each other, they were looking for a

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developer advocate, it was called an agency because I was it called like an agency and

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community engineer is what the title was technically. And they found me and they're like, we heard

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that you title these women to code like that's the kind of person that we need because it

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was very education heavy. It was very training heavy. Same thing, right? It was like sort

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of in that case, it was like cloud infrastructure and WordPress and people in WordPress are

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like, what the heck are containers, you know? And so I'm like, Hey, it's not as scary as

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you think, like CI and CD is actually really cool. Like, you know, and if you know anything

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about WordPress as, as you know, or anyone else, right, WordPress can be sort of this

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archaic way of building FTP, you know, sort of insecure, if that's the way we you build,

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but it was just so fun to be able to sort of dismantle it doesn't have to be like that.

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You can have more developer efficiencies and productivities brought into what is felt like

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an archaic stack, if that makes sense. So anyways, totally get it and, and definitely

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resonate and understand why you love it so much. Well, love, enjoy it so much, right?

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Okay, so taking back just a couple of steps, I'd love to hear what your developer education

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is if you have any official, if you're self-taught sort of how you learned to get into this field

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to begin with. Yeah, that's a good question. It's I'm uneducated. I have no education.

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I think that's just important to get out there. I did not go to college and I barely finished

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high school. But that's because my background is, is, is colorful. Like I grew up very ill

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and I was bouncing in and out of hospital is like, I'm just, I'm not a healthy person

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by any means I am now, but I wasn't. And so I couldn't, I couldn't take the risk of going

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to school. But as a consequence, like the other side of that coin is I, because I didn't

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even attend like school school, like, like, you know, like from kindergarten through 12th

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grade, I spent a lot of time at home sort of doing self education. I just, I had hobbies,

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like I loved, I loved games, Prince of Persia Pokemon. And I was like, how do you make these?

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And so I literally learned like game scripting. And then there was this pivot to visual design

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where I've always loved this macOS Aqua style UI. They used to have these balls, these like

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shiny balls, the clothes, minimize and maximize buttons on macOS used to be like shiny, you

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know, with reflections and things. And I thought this was so cool. So I, I had, I had illegal

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copies of Photoshop when I was a kid. And so I used to, I used to try and like replicate

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that make glassy stuff, which led to graphic design, which led to, okay, I can design static

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pictures of web pages. But how do I make them web pages, which led to something called the

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slicing tool in Photoshop where you slice things up into tables that are HTML. And slowly this

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became web design, which became okay, cool, but like, I need a database, I need, I need this to

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be interactive. I need, and so from there came JavaScript and DevOps and the full, so it's

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really just like, I'm interested in this, and I like to play in the sandbox. And it's, I'm still

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playing in the sandbox like 20 years later. But it's, it's, it's like that. And so it's, it's

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maybe a privileged position, which I'm thankful for, but I genuinely, it doesn't feel like work. I

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don't, I don't think I've frankly ever worked today in my life when it comes to code and tech. But

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I do like work when I deal with other people, like other people are nice. But there's just,

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there's personalities and attitudes and you need to be political about things and need to get buy

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in and you need to convince this stakeholder about that and quarterly reviews and okay, ours

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like, like to me, that's work, people are work in the workplace. But like, like if I'm building

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something like Langflow.new, if I'm building an agent workflow, if I'm, you know, like, this is

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just the sandbox, I think it's so cool. So to answer your question, maybe in a longer-winded way

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than, than you may have liked, it's all, my education is just playing in a sandbox. And it has

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been that way since I was born, it's going to stay that way till I die probably.

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I really, really, really love that so much as a three-time college dropout, not obviously for

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different reasons, mostly just because my brain does not allow me to learn via lecture and the

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format that college provided at that time. I love to hear that story because I think it's

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beautiful. Obviously, you had some dynamics in your life that sort of forced that upon you in

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ways that you couldn't control. But I think it's amazing that, you know, you found a beautiful

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passion out of that because like, for anyone, if you don't follow Tejas, you absolutely need to

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follow Tejas. I'll make sure that I put the links in the show notes. But he is, he's, you're just so

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good about like, like tweeting and posting on social media and wherever you're engaging about

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just like, you constantly say this kind of stuff, like how much you love building, how much it's not

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a job, how much, you know, the technology and stuff that you really enjoy. And it's so, it's

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empowering because for me, it's like, I have, I have gotten so pulled into the peoples and the

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politics and being on the leadership side of all of that and only getting to do most of what you

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just shared in my most recent roles that like, I have sort of forgotten and lost that like love of

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just like getting your hands in there and just playing in the sandbox, like you say. So thank you

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for sharing that. That was really beautiful.

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Yeah. And this is why like working in DevRel at DataSex, I feel this responsibility of giving the

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sandbox to other people. And I keep mentioning like Langflow and Agents. Langflow is a sandbox.

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You know, and like, it's like, hey, if you wanted to do like a rag or an agent or whatever, here's a

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sandbox. Let's play in it. And we don't yet have collaborative features like multi cursor like

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Figma, but believe me, I keep wanting this and I keep like bringing it up at work because I think

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if I can be in this literal like UI browser based sandbox with you guiding you through building an

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agent or something or an LLM based app, like that sandbox, it becomes everyone's sandbox. And then

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there's a, there could be a generation of people who maybe they like you, they don't like to learn

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from like, or they don't learn from lectures. The current like mainstream education style doesn't

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suit them for whatever reason. Well, they maybe don't need that because they have Langflow or

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similar sandbox, you know, and so that I think is so profound. And, and this is, I keep saying

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Langflow, which sure that's front of mind because it's my job, but there's also things like stack

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blitz code sandbox bolt.new zero, like all of these tools that are really just sandboxes for the

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next generation. Yeah. That's like a whole analogy of like a whole playground, right? It's like you

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think about kids running around and playing and just living their best life. And it's like, exactly,

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it's like, can you, can you create that while building technology, which honestly is like your

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true essence? Like, wow, what a beautiful role for you to be in and playing because it's just so

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contagious branded. Okay, so you get to do a lot of cool stuff in your day to day and you shared

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some of it. In terms of like, what is maybe a day to day look like in like where you're bouncing

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back and forth? Are you doing a lot of coding? Are you helping others when you're educating just

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kind of what is that sort of traditional day look like? Yeah, I have a over the years, I've

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discovered a really great productivity protocol for myself that works very, very well for me.

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And the caveat here is everybody's different. Everybody grew up differently and has different

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ways of working. But for me, I learned about the terminology for this from my friend, Michelle

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Bacals, who if she hasn't been on this show, she probably should be. She learned this also from

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someone else where they break up work into what they call offensive work and defensive work. And

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have you heard these terms before? Has people mentioned this? No, no, but I'm so

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entry. Yeah, offensive work is work where you move your needle. Like you have a task and you

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make progress towards your task. This is not says nothing to do with anyone else. This is you

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working on your feature or you're depending on where in the org chart you are, your main thing,

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right? You may be a professional CEO brought into engineer and exit for your company. That's your

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whole job is like, how are we going to IPO? This is what you think about is what you and so like

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wherever you are, offensive work is you obsessing over your thing. Okay, defensive work is the

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other stuff is the, Hey, we need to do this meeting about this thing that you probably don't

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care about. But like we have to, it's, it's, you know, getting things audit ready for SOC2. It's

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like all the nonsense like responding to emails. It's like being on the podcast that you don't

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want to be on some podcasts you do want to be on like this one, but other than the it's like

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doing all the stuff that you're like, I don't why am I doing and some things you just have to for

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example, I'll give you a great example of defensive work for me. I have to do some visa stuff. I hate

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visa stuff. I really, I being treated like a foreigner who's not welcome in a country. And I

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need to prove my income. And, and, and like the United Kingdom is the worst about this, right?

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Like they treat me like a terrorist coming into the country multiple times to the point where I'm

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thinking, I'm doing you a favor coming here. I'm literally like people are buying tickets to see

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this thing. You know what I mean? And so defensive work dealing with visa nonsense, offensive work,

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building Langflow.new. And so I do. So that's one thing I split my work this way. And I've learned,

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and some people will have to do trial and error, but for me what works extremely well is I've learned

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that I'm able to execute highly intense bouts of focus and cognitive work in windows of about an

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hour and a half, 90 minutes or so. Yeah. And it's really great because like I can, I can set an

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intention and I can press the on switch. And like the whole world disappears, nothing else. All I see

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is the sandbox, right? And for those 90 minutes, like no one's allowed to interrupt my phone is

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somewhere else. It's like in the bathroom, which I will not go to. No, no bathrooms allowed, no

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food, no drink. I'm just like in the sun. It's, it's, it's such a heightened state of focus. It's,

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it's incredible. And it's a rush. Like it feels like, wow, this is amazing. So I do that for 90

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minutes. It's, it's, it's very, very intense focus. And in those 90 minutes, like sometimes I finish

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and I like exit the state. And I'm like, Oh my goodness, what did I just do? For real? Like it,

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it looks like an entire day's worth of work. It's bananas. And I love that. And, and so I'm capable

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of maybe two or three of these at two, I think three is impossible, like two, but also when I

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like emerge from my focus hole, I, I just, I'm tired. Like, we're not trained in this is something

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that I learned on like on the job, so to speak. Yeah, cognitive work requires demands energy just

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as much as physical work or mental work. Like you could sit there and focus on a hard problem for

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like two hours and you'll feel as if you've like been on the treadmill for two hours, you know,

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just like very exhausting. And so after one, maybe two of these bouts, I'm like, offensive work, I

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can't do anymore today. I'm done. I gave my best. I left nothing on the field. I really, I finished

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the race. Well, I honored everybody. And then I've got like some, some extra time in the day. And

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this is for defensive work, right? It's for the visa stuff. It's for the, like code reviews. A lot of

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my teammates are some excellent, wonderful content creators. And I get to go review their drafts and,

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and suggest ideas. And so that's defensive work as well. It's just like, Hey, I'm putting together

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a CFP David, so my teammate is working on a CFP for a conference. And he's like, can you help me

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come up with a title? I'm like, yeah, that's defensive work, right? Because it's not my thing.

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Yeah, but sure, like I've already given my best and offense today. So I'm going to come play

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defense with you. So that's for me, that's what a day to day looks like. And it serves me and my

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team extremely well. Yeah, wow. Thank you for sharing that. I think that as like developers,

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I think, you know, as we all know, there's tons of neurodiversities and different thinking minds.

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And honestly, all of us think differently anyways. And I think that when it comes to our type of

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work, it is sometimes hard to balance sort of productivity and like being in the zone and

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then taking those kinds of breaks. And I know I personally struggle with sort of the prioritization

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and like staying staying in the right place when it needs to just because there's so many

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different things you could potentially be working on, especially in like a dev rail

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type of a role, right? I mean, you can be putting on 10 hats. And I think that's the worst, right?

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This is the great enemy of any professional. But I think the dev rail professional particularly is

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is when when people things circumstances and sometimes yourself, your own lack of boundaries

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and control will interrupt that precious offensive time in my case, those 90 minutes, like if I let

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anything mess up mess me up in those 90 minutes, I've effectively wasted a day. It's bad. I do not

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let anything like sometimes my wife will open the door and I'm like, no, no, go away. And she

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knows me well enough to know that he's in his he's in his sandbox, you know. Yeah. But it's

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I'm very protective of that because it's prime time you wouldn't give prime time to like tick

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talk, you know, if you did, there's a problem. And so I think that's, that's for me, like

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something I protect a lot. I'm going to honestly try that I have, have you ever heard of Ivy Lee

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method? Ivy Lee, I haven't. Yeah. So it's different concept, but still supposed to essentially like

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way back in like the late 1800s, this person went into essentially like the industry work at that

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time, like a lot of industrial and they were trying to figure out how to be more efficient.

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And the person who did this, I want to say his name is Charles Schwab, but I don't remember if

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it's the actual like the company like the business banking Charles Schwab if they're related or not,

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but definitely Google it if you want all the actual historical details, I'm just sharing my

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version, but you essentially make a list every day and it's six items that you're you get done on

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that list and it's prioritized. And so it's like you're supposed to work through that list in order.

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And for me, my brain likes to procrastinate the difficult tasks, which are probably some of

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those defensive types of tasks. And so I need it because it sort of keeps me in check. But I wonder

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if there's like sort of a beautiful like version of both of these, right, where it's like you've

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got two tasks that are like your offensive deep work. And then you've got sort of these four

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defensive tasks. And that's how you operate your day. It feels like a very beautiful hybrid anyways.

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Yeah, that's how that's exactly how I do it. It's exactly how I do it.

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Oh, okay, but I'm careful around. So I do have lists and I allow myself no more than two offensive

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bouts a day, I think, because that's also then just half the work. It's like three or four hours,

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right? Yep. And I get like I risk burnout if I allow myself a third. I just know that.

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But I'm careful around the use of the word priorities. Because this is a lesson I learned

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from from Gabe Greenberg, my previous CEO at G2I. And also one of the best CEOs in the I have the

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privilege of knowing quite a few CEOs, this guy is by far one of the best, absolutely incredible

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human being. He mentions and he constantly used to remind me on the job and he still does, we still

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talk, where he's like, Hey, look, man, the word priorities is a very new word in the English

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language. It came like hundreds of years after priority. We were always like in history, there

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was always one priority, you have one priority, like this is the thing you this is your offensive

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work task, the thing you focus on. Yeah, priorities came about at the time of like, you know, the

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industrial revolution and like when when everything got automated and oh, we can do more now. So let's

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just do more. But the problem with that is we were really not good at context switching.

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And so if you have like six priorities, you're giving a sixth of your attention to everything,

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which to me doesn't work. I would rather give 100% of my attention to one thing and do it

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extremely well with polish with with, you know, pulling out the stops with making sure it's

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going to scale like I want to do it properly, as opposed to spend one sixth of my attention doing

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it properly, you know. And so that's why the list for me of these six things would probably be like

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one offensive to five defensive or maybe two offensive to four that that can work. But I

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know I already know that on that day, I'm going to be very tired after work.

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Interesting. Okay, very good to know. I'm going to try that. Because honestly, I think that I can

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be very easily distracted as well. You know, if there's something, especially if you're doing

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defensive work, it's easy to look away and be like, Oh, there's something else hanging out.

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Hello, Rizal, Jason Alden and LinkedIn user that is not sharing their name. I am

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help I'm glad that you're enjoying the productivity tips. Okay, that's really cool. So what are some

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examples when you get into that offensive? I mean, obviously, it could be maybe creating a

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tutorial, it could be actually coding something. Is that what those look like? Are there other

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examples of like what your offensive work can look like? That's a good question. Yeah,

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as part of my defensive work, sometimes I'm just on on X or Twitter, depending on how much you

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believe Elon Musk is a Nazi. But I can call it X. Like sometimes I just scroll this platform,

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and I see things and get inspired. I think that's also part of work, right, is like, you just get

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inspired from somewhere. And I saw bolt.new, they have and stack, let's, as a company have a bunch

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of like dot new domains react dot new belongs to code sandbox, but there's a lot of dot new stuff.

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And I thought, well, data stacks, we make Langflow the sandbox for AI. And, and I want an

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exp and I said, we should maybe own Langflow dot new, you know, so I floated this idea. And people

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thought it was cool. And then my manager or we call them coaches at data sex Carter was like,

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you know what we should do? We should, we should have Langflow, but, but like unauthenticated

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because Langflow right now, like, if anyone wants to go try Langflow, like, we'll make you log in

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first. And so you've got to sign with Google, which is like, why should I sign into this? I don't

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even know what it is, you know? And so Carter, my coach was like, what if we just made like Langflow

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dot new be this unauthenticated zero friction, just go there, start playing in the sandbox

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instantly. And I was like, that's awesome, Carter. And so this idea came. And so at this point, I

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already knew this is going to be an offensive task, you know, so that's that's how it comes.

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Like, like I just get and so that's when I spoke to Carter, I was like, do you think we should do

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this? Carter was like, yes, management loves it. Let's go. And so I was like, that's I scheduled

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an offensive task. And so all of last week, literally last week, my offensive time every day

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was was on Langflow dot new. And I shipped it on, I think it was Thursday, Friday last week. And I

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just published a little video about it today. But like, it's the product of an entire week of

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offensive work. And it's not an easy problem to solve because it's a serverful application. So

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you've got to run it on it will not run on like Versailles or Netlify, you can't just like spin

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it up there because they do serverless functions. They don't host servers. And then Langflow is a

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server. So you've got to think, okay, Docker, I've got to do a lot of DevOps, I've got to make sure

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it scales, I need enough memory, I need, do I use render, do I use flight control, or do I just get

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like a physical metal machine and expose that to the internet? And there's a lot that can go wrong

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there, right? And so it was fun, the offensive work was fun, because you get to spend like deep

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focus on the DevOps side of this, making sure that if like 200 people create an AI workflow and run it

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all at the same time, is it going to crash? You know, and how do we mitigate that? And then you

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need to think about monitoring, like, how do we keep an eye on how much CPU and memories being used?

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Then you think of alerting, like, how do we how do we ping people when something's down?

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And all of this rolls into just a great, great week of solid offensive work. And what's the

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end result? We get Langflow.new, it's published, it's great, people use it. I have, I have metrics,

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I can see that we are about to cross 100 users today. You know, so like, yeah, it's just great.

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And so to answer your question, that's that's how like we arrive at like schedule offensive work,

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we get an idea, and we decide he's this worth offensive work. And then if it is, it goes in that

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pile. That's amazing. I forgot that you work with Carter. So say hello to Carter, I haven't had,

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it's been a hot minute since the last time I chatted with him. And it's, it was exciting to

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see him come back into the DevRel world, because he is like such an amazing experience, like,

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awesome leader. And so to bring him back into the workforce, I was like, yes.

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It's exciting to see. Yeah, we should maybe get him on the show.

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Oh, that's actually a good idea. There's, I started the show, like December 16th is the day I

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started the show. And it was a very passive, I'm like, okay, let's just like warm into it,

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like kind of ease into it type of thing. And now it's like, Oh, whoa, it's going people love it,

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like the views are astronomical, honestly, like way more than I ever expected. And I'm not really

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marketing it. So now I'm like, Oh, okay, I need to actually get more aggressive with like really

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going into my Rolodex and starting to fill fill all the potential days. So I absolutely will bring

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him on the show. Okay, so that's awesome. You like literally built something that is very complicated.

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Obviously not small. Having to do many, many, many different skills. Is it, did you just work on it

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last week or had you started it the week before? It's a complicated question. So it's, it started

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with, it started with defensive work. What is it? Well, it didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, I

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take that back. It started with, it started with a design document. Okay. So it depends like what

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you mean by started, right? Because like you could say started from that conversation with Carter,

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and Carter was like, I wrote a doc, I wrote a doc, and then we like left comments in the doc,

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and there were lots of ideas. So if we include that as the starting time, I believe that was

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December 16th around, around that. So the same time you started the streams. Beautiful. But,

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but the actual like engineering work to stand this up and host it and expose it to the internet

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and make it scale and monitoring all of that, that took the week. Yeah, that was, that was just

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last week, Monday to Friday. But it's because we did all of this pre-work before, right? It's

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as we were thinking about like, what does it look like? What does a decent flow look like?

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How do we host it, etc. So yes, in fact, that's really maybe a useful takeaway for people is

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if you spend enough time like planning beforehand, the execution time becomes much smaller than if

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you just like make it up as you go. Yeah, you know, and honestly, like, okay, so first I'm wildly

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impressed, but I'm constantly impressed by your skills. Like you are just so intelligent and you're

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so capable, but also like so kind and humble, like one of my favorite humans, honestly, if the world

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doesn't already know that, you're one of my favorite humans. But I think coming back to that, like,

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wow, that's a lot, right? But then at the same time, like what you were able to bring together as a

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team to do that, if folks are able to start to create those types of documents and think in that

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way, right, that becomes like v zero and bolt. And, you know, the product you built becomes like

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so much more capable, because now you have started to spec that out. And that's something you can

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put in, you know, some type of an AI prompt to be like, this is what I want to build. Even if

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you're not going to fully build it out in bolt, like maybe you get some general idea or whatever

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else, right, because you've you've put in in those work in details. Is there any tips or sort of hacks

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or things you want to share in how you presented or brought together that document?

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Honestly, no, I just because like, I think whatever I share is not novel. I just I started,

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so maybe we can learn from psychology. There's a, I forget the name, but there's a trauma specialist

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who wrote a book on like dealing with psychological pain and trauma. And, man, it hurts me that I

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can't remember, but the product, the idea that he had was, and they tested this on people,

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you just take 15 minutes every so often, it doesn't even have to be a day, it could be like three

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times a week, four times a week, or even once a week, take 15 minutes and just like write down.

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Doesn't matter if it's neat, like no one's going to read it, you just like write down your most

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painful experience in 15 minutes. So you give yourself 15 minutes a day, you just write it down,

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nobody cares how it looks, nobody's going to read it. And that's it, just write it down and

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you're done. And if you do that repeatedly week after week, you just like whatever pain is attached

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to that experience, it just goes away, like it doesn't even affect you anymore. And this is proven,

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this was a big experiment done with many, many people and it just works. Like this is the way to

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get over difficult experiences, maybe even from childhood, right? Like people who were bullied,

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like they just write down in detail, they describe their bullying sessions over 15 minutes. And over

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time, this loses its power. So now bringing that back to like this Langflow.new thing,

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my approach was I'm just going to write, I don't care. I'm just like, I'm just going to write,

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like word vomit here. And you know, word vomit gives you the basis to then clean it up and make it

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nice. But like if you don't have, at least for me, if you don't have the word vomit, maybe I should

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find the word soup, I don't know, like if you don't have that in the beginning, then you have nothing.

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And I think for the early stages of a creative process, like writing a document, it's always

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better to have something even if it's trash than nothing, because that's something can be refined,

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but nothing can't be refined. Nothing is nothing, you know? So my process is we go from nothing to

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crude, and then we refine, and then we polish, and then we ship. I love that. Yeah, I think it is

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helpful. Like I know what you're saying in terms of like, it's sort of the normal process, but it's

370
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nice to hear other people's process and like how they go through and think about that. And that

371
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,880
psychology note is amazing. Like there's Aaron Francis was on the show, I think not last week

372
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,200
with the week before, another great episode. And he had actually mentioned something about just he

373
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,720
just writes everything down. So when it's like, okay, I've got a lot to get done, I've got a lot

374
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,040
on my heart, I've got a lot going on, he just sort of dumps that right. It's a similar concept.

375
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,320
And then he's like, once I get that out, then it's like, it doesn't seem as scary like, oh,

376
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,400
okay, I do have to go take care of visa paperwork, right? And it's like, yes, I'm avoiding it, it

377
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,680
does suck to do it. But if I get it on paper, then it's like, okay, it's not actually that scary to

378
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,400
go take the steps to go do it. So that's kind of a culmination there of combinations. Wow,

379
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:39,200
so many productivity hacks I'm going to implement, which I'm in this space of like,

380
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,800
I'm in an opportunistic place of being able to implement these. So it's perfectly timed.

381
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:54,320
Yeah, I think I'm curious, like, I feel like productivity tips like this, that that I use

382
00:32:54,320 --> 00:33:02,320
myself. I'm curious to see because I'm living, I'm living Tessa on like the forefront of this AI

383
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,880
wave, whatever this is, you know, and, and there's so much talk about agents and there's so much

384
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,160
talk about the end of work, like, oh, we're not gonna have to work anymore, because agents are

385
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,680
going to be doing everything. And pardon me, things like do these productivity tips even matter?

386
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,680
Like, will David like, what, what if the machines just do all our work? Will we still have to think

387
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,080
about like offensive work, defensive work? Or are we just going to like paint all day and take

388
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:31,200
LSD or something? You know, like, I don't, like, for example, there's, there's this dystopian,

389
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,800
maybe not dystopian, there's this vision of two futures could go either way. And some people say,

390
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,600
well, there's the way, or actually, no, what I wanted to say was this, this one. So yeah, this,

391
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:47,920
this one future that someone envisioned where the machines did all the work for people. And people

392
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,880
just didn't do anything. Or they just like, you know, pursued their dreams, whatever that means,

393
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:59,040
you play Fortnite all day, I don't know. But at some point, the people learned how to do the things

394
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,720
that machines did, they stopped knowing how to do them generations came and went and at some point,

395
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,400
like, for example, me, I'm not handy, I don't know how to hang up a light bulb. I don't know. I don't

396
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,920
know. This is maybe me revealing my own ignorance. I don't know how to like drill a hole in a wall

397
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,200
and find studs and put picture. I've never been handy, which is fine, because I have a partner.

398
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,040
But the point I'm trying to make is over generations, if the machines keep doing the work for us,

399
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,640
we may just forget to do stuff like how to do stuff, you know, we may just forget how to even talk

400
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,320
to each other because everybody's talking to an agent. And then what does that look like? You

401
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,480
know, so all that to say, like the productivity tips, I appreciate that we appreciate them.

402
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,760
But I don't do they have an expiry date? I don't I don't know if they're going to be useful in a

403
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:46,640
few years. That brings up a really, really, really valid point. Yeah, maybe the maybe the the real

404
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:53,280
productivity tip is learn how to make your own agents. And this is something. This is something

405
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:59,360
I'm really like, so I have to book some flights for travel for vacation. And I'm literally, I'm

406
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,560
doing this instead of booking my flights, instead of going on like Google flights or whatever,

407
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,880
I'm literally just writing an agent that I can be like, I need flights, I need them at this price

408
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:15,680
point, arrive now depart then, get them for me. And I'm not using open AI as new operator. I'm

409
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,800
like building this from scratch, just because I think that's the way like that's the ultimate

410
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:28,800
productivity tip, right, is to like be ahead of this this topic. I agree. You know, what's

411
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,560
actually really beautiful about that, like, you and I can probably have a good conversation about

412
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,840
this later is like, I want to create an agent that has sort of a general rubric or scoring

413
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,800
model for developer experience, like going into a site and it's like, okay, can I easily see what's

414
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,640
capable? Can I find the docs that I need? Does it all connect together? Yeah, see, I've got like a

415
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,880
scoring model that I've started creating already that I think would be just a really beautiful

416
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,600
tool because I'm doing it every day. And I'm like, did it, did it, did it, did it, did it, did it,

417
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,120
okay, you're missing this, this shouldn't be there. And it's like, it's something that I spend a great

418
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,160
deal of time on. And I'm like, can I get a score back from an agent that's at least a predecessor,

419
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,400
right? That's like a one to 10 or one to 100 or whatever. And then I can, I can tap in and be like,

420
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,120
okay, human brain, what should be done to improve this? Or who knows, maybe it can even come back

421
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:21,200
and say you should fix this. You got excited. So obviously you're into it. But you can do this so

422
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:27,920
easily. It's like right at your fingertips. Like, like this is, yeah, I know it's very doable.

423
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,400
More so with Langmuir because it's all visual, but like you can you can definitely do this. And

424
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,840
I'm happy to like walk you through that if you want at some point. It's not, you just need a

425
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,040
browser and you need an agent that can use it. This is not hard. Like we have both those things.

426
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480
Right. Yeah, I know. Because when Claude came out with like, they're sort of like navigation,

427
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,000
right? And I know like build your own, right? Totally into that. When they came out with it,

428
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,160
I was like, Oh my gosh, like how, of course, this is something that we can do, right? Starting to

429
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,640
navigate, fill out forms, do some of these other things. So I would actually love probably the

430
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:04,560
link flow sort of infrastructure just in my current state of like technical chops. But then at the

431
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,160
same time, like I'm in a place where I'd like to build it and then like learn to maintain it.

432
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,200
Right. So it's like, that's how I learn coming back to sort of college and education. Throw me to

433
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,320
the wolves, throw me in a situation, force me to learn it by like fire. And then I've got it,

434
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,520
you know, so speaking to what you were sharing right about productivity hacks, I think we already

435
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,720
see that play out, right? And you know, depending on sort of like where, what game you were playing

436
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:33,040
and what code you were diving into. But like, even if we look at the modern JavaScript stacks,

437
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,360
right, like those developers in most cases don't understand the underlying infrastructure. That

438
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,920
was like not an option when I was a developer, right? I had to understand every element of PHP

439
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:47,280
and every element of my servers and every element of my DevOps, because there wasn't all these

440
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,880
beautiful tools and frameworks and things already created. So it's like, we're already seeing it

441
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:56,880
happen. It's just in like different forms, you know? Yeah. And it gets even scarier when agents,

442
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,240
like kind of like I talked about this dystopian future when agents do all of this for us, we don't

443
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:03,840
even know. Like I think because frameworks exist, a lot of people just don't know the fundamentals

444
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:09,680
of the web anymore. Like I wasn't a discussion yesterday on X with a person who was complaining

445
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:16,480
that AI operators can't read their website. And I thought why? And turns out their entire

446
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:22,480
website was rendered exclusively with JavaScript. So no JavaScript, no reading. And of course,

447
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:28,960
like AI browsers don't have JavaScript, they expect static markup, right? And so, and so I think

448
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,640
we just don't know how to build websites anymore already because of the frameworks that

449
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,440
some will output just JavaScript. I think with AI assistance, this will only get worse,

450
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:43,360
which gives us more of a more of an imperative to like preserve teaching the right things,

451
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,440
because unfortunately, LLMs aren't there today, where they teach the right things most of the time.

452
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:55,520
I think about the agent, I just wanted to respond to Rizel's comment here. Rizel, we can also build

453
00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,800
that agent for you, or you can build that agent for your expense reports also with LLMs. There's

454
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:08,240
integrations with literally everything. Yeah, I think it's so just to circle back, Tessa, to your

455
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:13,760
awesome idea. We're doing a collaboration with a company called Tiny Fish. They have a project,

456
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,880
a product called AgentQL. They're a client of mine. That's how the playground became. Because

457
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,280
like you said with sandbox, like they were original client and I was like, you need a sandbox,

458
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:29,040
because there was like, I didn't have the aha moment of what I could do. And so I'm so excited

459
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:35,120
to hear that I love them. Yeah, and so they are instrumental to your agent, right? Because they

460
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:40,720
allow you to query the browser with AI. You can see like, find me the link to the docs.

461
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,400
We'll get you that element. It doesn't exist. Then your agent's like, aha, this is bad. So

462
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:54,000
Langflow plus AgentQL is basically your agent. It already exists in my mind and probably in

463
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,800
yours. So that's so cool. That's so cool. That is, I got that hookup. So both of those companies,

464
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,400
what a beautiful, beautiful synergy. It's funny because we did, if you look in the Built for

465
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,040
Devs Hub, so anyone, if you're listening to the podcast version, it's hub.builtfor.dev. Otherwise,

466
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,080
if you're in the stream, you can see the annoying little ticker thing at the bottom.

467
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,800
There's actually a recording in there with Rachel who does DevRel over there. And so her and I were

468
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,800
sort of digging through because I was like, okay, I wanted it for developer engagement. So something

469
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,880
that you and I have had many conversations about, can I go out and understand if someone's having

470
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,600
a conversation or if someone is sharing something? Can I scrape insights to better understand a

471
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,240
developer? And so that's actually what we were diving into. And so that sort of exploded all

472
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:39,280
kinds of different ideas of how to scrape. And then I started building a recipe app. I'm so

473
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,320
like, I'm so annoyed by meal planning, so annoyed by meal planning. But I have all these recipes

474
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,560
that I curate and create on my own. So I don't want to use these apps that are like, here's all

475
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,600
these things, like I have opinions, you know. And so then I was using agent QL to scrape recipes.

476
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,000
So it would go out, scrape the recipes of the websites and that the web, I have recipes all

477
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,360
over the place, right? And so it goes scrape the recipe, bring it into my app. So anyways,

478
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,680
long story short, agent QL is so cool. So definitely go check out the culmination of the

479
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:12,800
two tools because it's limitless really. If the culmination doesn't exist in your tool yet,

480
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,280
we should make that. I think that would be a fine con. And then you know what we can do,

481
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,480
Tessa, we can then use your tool on Langflow because it's open source and we can get a DevX

482
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:30,080
core just for Langflow itself. That's a pilot project, you know. And then we can go do Langchain

483
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,200
because that's also open source. We could do React. We could, you know, there's Aiden, I don't

484
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,640
know if you know Aiden, Aiden by, he's a developer, also someone great for your show. Aiden makes

485
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:44,560
million.js, which is a rendering library that's faster than React. And Aiden has been obsessed

486
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,280
with performance, I think more than the average person. Like he does this thing where he

487
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,680
goes on literally all the websites of like the Fortune 500 and more. And he has a Chrome extension

488
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:01,280
that he built that shows you like when your applications render unnecessarily and a lot.

489
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,040
And so he does this thing where he goes publicly on social media and is like shaming these companies.

490
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,440
He's like, look, Nike, your thing renders a million times when I type a keystroke. What's with that?

491
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:17,200
And they, and some of them actually fix it, right? But the reason I bring this up is Aiden is

492
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:24,880
somebody who's really, really obsessed with performance. And he, all of his work, including

493
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:31,440
million.js is fully open source. And so, yeah, I think that's sort of at the heart of what we want,

494
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,480
right? We want a better web and we want it to be open source. And like your tool, the DevX score

495
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,440
thing, could be kind of like what Aiden does for performance, but for open source projects,

496
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,000
so their developer experience, you know, you could literally just go on like Taurey, you know,

497
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,040
Taurey is like, I'm electron, but with Rust. And you could like, you could point your tool at the

498
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,520
Taurey project and be like, look, they're missing a change log here and help them improve.

499
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:01,040
Exactly. That's exactly. And for me, it's like, I want to decrease the time that I'm investing

500
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,280
in doing developer experience audits, you know, so it's like a selfish time saver. But I think it

501
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,760
is something that's really beautiful to put out into the ecosystem too, because often like when

502
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,520
I am talking to clients, it's like, it's one thing, you know, and I think some people can get a little

503
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,440
like, oh, there's some secret sauce here. But for me, I'm like, I don't really feel that way. I'm

504
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,040
like, hey, you should understand how I look at developer experience, because at the end of the

505
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,680
day, you still have to hire someone to go do the work, right? And so I think it's, it's a really

506
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,960
beautiful thing when we can share like how clear it is, like it just on LinkedIn, I shared convex.dev,

507
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,040
like I've actually don't have never touched the tool, but I just happened to land on it, whatever,

508
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,200
for whatever reason, it pulled me in. And they just have like a beautiful navigation. And so I

509
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,240
think that level of sort of sharing and understanding like what developers need and what that experience

510
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:49,360
could look like, I think it's just such a such a fruitful end result. So okay, so when are we

511
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,120
going to build this result? You want to come on and help us build it? We need I need to do more of

512
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,920
that. I don't know if you want, I don't know if you want to build it in public, but if you did

513
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,640
want to build in public, I would easily build this with you. I think it's a great, great use case.

514
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,080
Yeah, I would absolutely love to build it in public. Like I said, I don't have any secrets,

515
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,880
like I think whatever I feel is the sort of benchmark, I think the more we can crowdsource it,

516
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,800
so folks could be like, but I care about this in developer experience, the better, because then I

517
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,280
think then that can make for a much greater and more fruitful benchmark at the end of the day.

518
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,880
That sounds awesome. It sounds like built for dev x data stacks, let's get the Slack channel going.

519
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,920
That's so well, let's do it. Yes, let's absolutely do it. Okay, this is happening. So anyone listening,

520
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,360
you'll see this in the community future. So go sign up hub dot built forward dot dev,

521
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,240
we'll make sure that we get that out there. Okay, so we've talked about so many things.

522
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:41,040
And I'm like nearing the end of our time, but I could similar to others continue to talk to you

523
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:47,040
for hours because you are fabulous. Yes, Resell, I will definitely bring Aiden on. Honestly,

524
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,040
I have a client who is like hyper focused on performance. So I want to get Aiden's opinion

525
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,760
on that tool specifically actually. So I have many reasons to reach out to Aiden now. So

526
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:01,040
watch out, Aiden, I'm coming for you. One of the questions I like to ask everyone is how they get

527
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:07,840
unstuck. And I feel like you will have some very straightforward, but potentially liberating ways

528
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,000
that you potentially think about getting unstuck. So I would love to hear if you're ever stuck with

529
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,520
the work people stuff, or if you're ever, you know, stuck in the technology side of things and

530
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:24,400
sort of what are your steps to get through that and get unstuck? Good question. I'm,

531
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,400
I'm not neurotypical. I think I actually think nobody's neurotypical. I think neurotypical is

532
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:37,840
a lie by the evil media. But I think everybody's, I think neurotypicality is just not a thing.

533
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:44,240
And so my flavor of neurodivergence, it leans close to ADHD. I don't think I have ADHD per se,

534
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:48,960
textbook, but, but I do work that way in that like, I'll hyper focus on things. I'll also be

535
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:56,160
distractible. But usually when there's like pressure, I do good. Like I'll finish. So what

536
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,640
unsticks me is like somebody literally like pointing a knife at me and is like, I'm a,

537
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:07,440
I'm a, I'm a, this doesn't happen, but it has to feel like, you know, um, yeah, I think a good

538
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,680
example of, I don't want to shout out my colleagues who like, they keep coming to me with this visa

539
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:18,080
stuff, which I, I, I praise the Lord for them because if, if they didn't die, I would just never

540
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,760
have a visa. My US visa expires this year. And with the new administration, I don't even know if I'm

541
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:29,280
going to come back, but like it's, they, they, they, they keep emailing me about it. And in the

542
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:34,640
moment it is irritating to me, I will say that, but it's, it's, it's good that they do that because

543
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:42,320
then I actually finish the process. And so what unsticks me is pressure. And sometimes that pressure

544
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:49,120
is external and I thank God for it. But there's also times where I'm able to manufacture my own

545
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:55,120
pressure. Like I'll self impose deadlines. Um, and this helps me unstick. Like for example, I,

546
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,640
I highly value integrity and by integrity, I mean, meaning what I say and saying what I mean.

547
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:06,560
And so I myself will tell my coach, I'll be like, so it's Monday on Friday, I'm going to ship line

548
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,760
flow.new and, and, and damn, what did I just do to myself? You know? And so that's just me,

549
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:18,000
like unsticking myself is like setting these, um, somewhat unrealistic deadlines. Um, thankfully,

550
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:25,280
like if I fail, there's grace, you know? Um, but that helps unstick me a lot is just,

551
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:31,520
and, and also to be fair, setting the, in my case, the 90 minute focus window is also a version of

552
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,320
that where I literally tell myself, look, I have 90 minutes to make a progress on this offensive

553
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:44,000
task. If I don't, I've failed and I, it feels like a fundamental failure to me. It feels like sin.

554
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,480
It's not, it's not a light. Oh, it's okay. I'll try again tomorrow. It's like, no, I have failed.

555
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:54,880
Like it's bad. Yeah. Like I feel, I feel the weight of it when I don't successfully complete my,

556
00:47:54,880 --> 00:48:00,880
um, you know, 90 minute work about, right? And so, um, for me, that 90 minutes is also a forcing,

557
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:08,000
it's a deadline to unstick myself. Yeah. And so once I start, I'm effectively already unstuck

558
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,040
because the sense of urgency to finish this thing within the timeframe is, is real. Um, I, I tend to

559
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:21,760
be more like stuck in a negative way when, when it's, uh, when I don't even start, this is like,

560
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,920
you know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's for me difficult. Like for example, the visa thing

561
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,560
is, is, is something like that where I, I let myself get stuck because I don't even want to

562
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:37,600
approach it because it's so one difficult, but two just painful, just thinking like they,

563
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,040
they think I'm going to come here and be an illegal immigrant. I don't like it. You know,

564
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:46,160
and, and, and maybe they don't write, but there's just enough past experience where that's

565
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,400
been, there's evidence of that. Put it that way. Um, and so I just don't like approaching the subject

566
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:59,280
for it. And so I don't really have like a, uh, something that works 100% of the time to

567
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:04,160
unstick myself in those cases. I'd love to know, do you have anything to unstick yourself in such

568
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,360
cases? No, I'm the same exact way. My brain thinks the same way. So I know, but if we can find one,

569
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,200
that would be amazing. I will say that Aaron's suggestion of writing everything down did help

570
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,320
because it made it feel like, okay, it's annoying, but it's not that difficult to go chase it down.

571
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:23,120
Sure. I have to go do it, but it's like, okay, I can get it done. I will say this. One thing that

572
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:30,240
helps me. So I have maybe not 10 out of 10 times, but like four out of 10 times succeeded in

573
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:35,280
unstick myself from these kinds of things. Um, and what helps me in those cases is to just force it

574
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:43,280
to like, you know, I've seen, I'm a man and I've seen my fellow men do like the dumbest things

575
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,160
just because it's like cool, especially when you're younger. Like I've seen guys do like,

576
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:54,800
there's a red hot like branding iron and they're like, just brand me, dude, just brand me right

577
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,320
here. Do it man. And it's like, and I'm like, why, why do you want that? But I don't know. It's like,

578
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,880
it's like a bravado thing or something, but they, they like, just do it. Just get it over with. I'm

579
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,920
so ready. Oh, and they, they force it. You know, they, they, they literally like, it's going to hurt,

580
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,720
but yeah, I'm going to feel like a man, you know, this kind of thing. Um, yeah, that helps me unstick

581
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:19,840
myself from things that I'm afraid of is to brace bracing. That's the thing is to be like, this is

582
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:25,920
going to suck, but I'm going to do this so hard. And then it's going to be over. Like that unsticks

583
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,840
me a lot. And I think the more you practice that skill, or at least for me, the more I practice

584
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:36,240
that skill, the better it comes to. So how then do I practice this skill? It's the, um, this will

585
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:40,560
make me, people will not like me after I say this, I think, but it's the, it's the cold plunge. It's

586
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,640
the ice bath. This thing is crazy, Tessa. Like it really, like I'm scared to go in, but after I do,

587
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,960
it makes me brave and it makes me be like, you know what, that was extremely painful, but look,

588
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,800
I'm out and I'm warm. So like, let's go do this visa thing. You know, yes, yes. Cold exposure is,

589
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,720
is a real, um, unsticker for like the scary stuff that I procrastinate on.

590
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:07,920
Yeah. That actually not to like, you know, be weird about anything here, but like that's childbirth,

591
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:13,360
I feel like, and I think like you go into it and it's like, you know, I've had four kids, right?

592
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:18,720
First time I was like, Oh, well, just, you know, it is what it is. And I realized how incredibly

593
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:22,960
painful it is. Like excruciatingly, like nothing I've ever imagined in my entire life.

594
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,360
Three more kids. I'm like, okay, I have to have that approach, right? It's like, I'm going to do this

595
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,080
because I knew what that feeling was like at the end, like when I got to hold my baby. And so

596
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:38,880
it's very much like that. So I will harness my inner like brave warrior woman to, um, to sort of,

597
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,680
you know, manifest that energy, I think, to get it done because I do, I do agree. Um, I'm really

598
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:48,720
curious. There is a, it's called motivation code and it's essentially, it's very similar to some

599
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:52,000
of these personality tests. But I personally really think it's like the only one that matters.

600
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,640
Because what it does is it helps you find your motivation. And so I'm an achiever and I have

601
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:01,920
the same exact mentality. I have this like win or lose mentality. And it's not that I have to like

602
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:06,480
win every game or win every video game or win at playing cards or win in that way. But it's

603
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:12,000
whatever objectives I set for myself to go do. Like if I don't get those done, similar to your 90

604
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:17,200
minutes, Hey, this is what I have to get done. I feel the same way. It's like this, this like

605
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:23,680
immense sin, this failure that like can actually like really take me down if I let it, but it also

606
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:29,680
can like fuel me to be incredibly successful. Um, and it sounds very relatable to that. So I'm,

607
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,160
I'm really curious if you're also an achiever because there's a lot of different sort of, um,

608
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,640
pieces that go into that and how you think about things. And, um, yeah, it's just a beautiful

609
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,800
sort of dimension and personality breakdown. Cause when you bring the right people together,

610
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,240
those people win, and then you've got people that do sort of the other pieces and it just

611
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:54,720
makes this beautiful, beautiful round team. All right. Well, this has been an amazing conversation.

612
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:59,840
Um, how can people find you? It sounds like they should go check out link flow to throw them the

613
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:04,400
URL again, make sure I don't, don't screw that up, but I would love for folks to really go and

614
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,000
find you and what you're working on and find some of this awesome goodness that we've, we've

615
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:14,640
chatted about. Yeah. Um, I'm on X at Tejas Kumar underscore. Good luck spilling that. It's an Indian

616
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:21,440
name. Um, but I'm just going to my website, Tejas.js. For me, and then for the things I'm

617
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:26,320
working on here, Langflow, Langflow is awesome. Lang, like language and flow, like rhythm and flow.

618
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:31,920
Langflow.new is how you can build your first agent, literally, like if you've never built an AI agent

619
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:37,680
before, um, Langflow.new is a sandbox where you can go there. There's a tutorial, like here's how

620
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:42,400
you build an agent and you actually build an agent. And we also like define what an agent is.

621
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,720
And all of it's just, it's, it's this resource that I think is going to be helpful for people in

622
00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:51,600
what people are calling the year of agents. So, um, Langflow and also, you know, data stacks,

623
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:57,600
I work there. We, we really just want to democratize AI for everybody and make it accessible. We

624
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:02,800
build tools to do that. Um, we have a vector database called astroTV and Langflow and they're

625
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:08,160
all, they're all useful, but fundamentally, at least the most important part of the work to me is,

626
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,720
is to, um, make sure that people aren't left out and that people learn what they want to learn

627
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:17,440
and are able to really have the careers they want and the lives they want. Because frankly,

628
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:22,800
I have that. I have the career I want. I have the life that I want. Um, and it's, it's a really great

629
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,280
place to be. I'm one of the happiest people in the entire world. Um, except when I'm losing it

630
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,640
fortnight, but I, you know, and I think it's just so cool that I even get to play fortnight,

631
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:37,040
you know, with my family and like it's, it's so cool. So I just want people to have that as well.

632
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:43,520
So yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Honestly, I need to harness my intertages more like just,

633
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,200
I live the best life too. And even though running a business is difficult and there are challenges,

634
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:52,560
like I wouldn't trade it for anything. And so, um, I love to hear that. I think if we go out on a note

635
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,960
here, like live your best life, be happy about the challenges that you get to face, even if they

636
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:03,280
kind of suck like visas and other annoying, procrastinatable tasks. Uh, thank you so much

637
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,360
for being on the show. It's been a fabulous conversation and I cannot wait until we all

638
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,360
get together and build this DX agent because it's the world needs it. And it's going to be super

639
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:35,440
cool. Let's do it. Yeah. All right. I hope everyone has a fabulous day. Happy Friday, y'all.