Oh, man.
We do need more.
Hello, everyone.
I was just telling Amy before I hit the go live button that she is my first female
guest and I actually feel bad as like a woman Devon like I need to get the women
goodness in here.
But I've found that like my circle is very male dominated.
I mean, I'm sure yours probably is as well.
But long story short, we are here this morning.
99 Dev problems.
Very excited to chat with Amy and have my first female guest on, which is long
overdue and here with all of her awesome work.
So Amy, I would love for you to introduce yourself to the guest.
Yeah.
So my name is Amy Dutton.
I've been doing web design development for 24 years, which is crazy.
No, I started super young, but my background is design and moved into the
development space, worked at an agency really young, studied something slightly
different in college just because I figured I already know what I'm doing.
And decided to stick with web design and development after I graduated.
So I kind of be bopped around.
I worked over on music rows.
I'm in Nashville.
So it's fun to name dropping conversations.
I've run my own agency for seven years and now I'm working on open source.
So I'm the lead maintainer on the Redwood JS core team.
Oh my gosh.
So I have so many comments, but the comment that just will not leave my mind
is like, there is no way you look so young.
Like there's 24 years is crazy.
And I know in pre-show we talked about how you started really early,
which I'd love to dive into, but like, wow, like you, um, I would not have guessed
that at all.
Oh, well, thank you.
Yes, I started when I'm 16.
I'm 40 now.
So that's how we got to 24.
That is so great.
I turned 40 this year and I'm trying to be like, it's not happening.
It's not a thing.
Like it's just, it doesn't matter.
It's not going to take place.
Well, we're about the same.
So I'm September, September, I turned 40.
Ooh, nice.
I'm in March.
So very, very close.
Look at that.
Yep.
So, um, but yeah, it's been, it's been fun to feel like in some ways I've grown
up with the industry.
Yeah.
Because like when I started, it was just like regular HTML and CSS, like CSS
two came out when I was in college.
And I remember being like, Oh, this is crazy.
You can do all these fancy things and look at it where it is now.
It looks like a completely different.
Oh my gosh.
Look at it where it is now.
I remember like, you know, having to use various things.
And to use various like workarounds to do what flex and grid can just so
beautifully do today.
And I was like, where were you when I was in early death?
And I couldn't figure out the basic fundamentals of how to center a div.
Why was that so hard?
I know.
Well, and just the nostalgia of it, we used to, you know, say we'd slice
and dice a website because that's literally what we would do.
We would bring that image into fireworks, which RIP and create a bunch of tables
out of the images.
Yes.
Do you want to know something funny about that?
One of my first jobs.
So I taught myself how to code like back in like, I mean, I did in high
school and whatever, not as cool as you where you like actually had a job.
Very cool.
I taught myself how to like more in-depth code.
I would say like 2006, 2007.
And there was like nothing for resources.
I mean, like nothing.
It was so difficult.
And so you were doing that, right?
You were like stealing code from here, stealing code from there, parsing
things together.
Hello, Arvind.
By the way, I want to address that.
Let's see.
Are you not building 12 updates anymore?
Oh, we're going to talk about that.
We're going to talk about that.
Oh, yeah.
What's that about that?
Yeah, I can't wait.
Virtual birthday party, like absolutely.
Honestly, so virtual birthday party.
I don't know about you, but turning 40, right?
You know, kind of like, let's pretend it's not happening.
It's either we can do that or we can just embrace it and be like,
being old is great.
We're mature and smart.
A deaf friend of mine was like, you know what I'm going to do for my 40th birthday?
It's like, he's just going to have a huge party.
Like host his own birthday party and just invite all of his friends.
And I'm like, man, that's so great.
But I'm like, how do you do that when all your friends are across the country?
And I'm like, virtual birthday party?
Uh-huh.
Yes.
Yes, that sounds wonderful.
Yeah.
My daughter told me she was like, mom, this is another year of knowledge.
Oh my gosh, you daughter's amazing.
How old is she?
She's nine.
That's all my daughter is.
Look at us.
That is amazing.
Okay.
So your daughter sounds like she's extra too, because mine is very much like extra and sees
things and makes comments like that.
And I'm like, oh, I see you.
You will see.
Both of them are.
Oh, both of them are.
So I have a 10 year old son, a nine year old daughter and a seven year old daughter.
So they're all right there.
I love that so much though.
Yeah, that is close together.
10 and nine.
That is like, how was that in early childhood?
They're all a year and a half apart.
So depending on when it is during the year, it sounds like two or closer together than
the other, but they're all pretty much evenly spaced out.
So even though, I guess Isaac and Adele are closer in age, like by only a couple months
maybe then Adele and Emma, Adele, because of where their birthday falls in the year,
Adele's in third grade right now and Emma's in second grade.
So they're like right next to each other, which is kind of interesting now because they
kind of share friends, but fight over friends already.
But when they were little, a lot of it was just being in survival mode.
But the nice thing is they're all kind of in the same thing together.
So they're all in elementary school together doing the same thing together versus like
me and my sister, my youngest sister and I are seven years apart.
So there's a big difference between like, oh, I'm in college and you're still in middle
school.
Yeah.
I have, I have 16 and 14 and those two are boys very close together, right?
Two years.
They're like almost exactly two years apart.
But we were like, that's all we were going to have.
And then later we're like, should we have another one?
And then we had a nine year old daughter.
So there's like the seven year gap between her and the youngest teenager.
And then about three years ago, we were like, let's get a vasectomy.
Let's be done with this.
We know we're done.
And then we're like, well, maybe like, let's just try it one more time.
If God wants us to have another baby, like it'll happen.
Boom.
Pregnant instantly.
So now we also have a two year old.
We did lose the first one.
11.
But we lost it early.
So we knew we wanted it once we lost that, that first pregnancy, we're like, see, it's
meant to be.
So we tried again.
And then now we have a two year old.
So I will tell you this.
It is very, very nice to have them grouped together.
But there is also sort of this beauty of having them spaced out as well because like my 14
year old loves the two year old, my 16 year old loves the nine year old.
My nine year old is my only girl.
Otherwise I got a crew of boys.
And it's just this beautiful sort of like little partnership with each other.
So yeah.
I can only imagine what your life was like in survival mode though.
I was in survival mode with two under two or two under three and you were like three
under three under three under four.
Yeah.
Dang.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
But so my sister has one pretty close to mine.
My kids.
Oh nice.
But she just had another one like in around Thanksgiving.
So there's a little bit of a gap.
And I know exactly what you're talking about because it's beautiful seeing the older kids
take care of the younger ones.
There's something special that they learn in that of just family and relationships and
things like that.
So I totally there's beauty both ways.
Yeah.
For sure.
I agree.
I never wanted kids.
This is a whole conversation, but I never wanted kids.
I never wanted to get married originally.
Then I met my husband and he softened my soul.
But now now that we have them and now that I've gotten into this space, I'm like I for
the last probably five or six years are like, I'm not wishing my life away, but I'm like,
I can't wait to be a grandma.
Like because it's like, it's just so beautiful.
And so now my older kids previously were like, man, I don't know if we want kids and they
see their two year old brother and both of them are like, well, maybe we'll have one kid.
Maybe we'll have a couple kids and I'm like, yes, grandma.
Here I come.
That's so funny.
We talk all the time about what our names are going to be.
So no, it's like a moving target, but I like joking me, mom, people.
I love that.
That's super fun.
Okay.
So, hey, Nick also.
So Arvin is asking.
So I feel like we should dive into what, you know, well, let's dive into like, what are
you doing in your day to day?
Let's start there and then Arvin can start to get his answers of what you're up to.
So what does a day to day look like?
You're obviously the lead maintainer on Redwood.
J.S.
Like what does that look like?
I think a lot of devs are probably very, I don't want to say envious, but also like,
whoa, that's cool.
So let's go through your day.
So let me just say framework code writing is completely different than like normal code
writing because a lot of times you're working with things that are undocumented.
So for example, we've been working on trying to implement RSCs into the framework for probably
close to two years now, which sounds ridiculous, but there's just a lot of features with React
that are undocumented, but not only React, but also VIT and VIT just really like these
are their version six, which has environment frameworks, which makes a world of difference
for what we're trying to do.
But a lot of those things are undocumented and I don't blame those teams because a majority
of the people are not using those features.
They're just working with whatever the framework authors give them.
So it's been up to us and we've been in special working groups with those companies trying
to get that work across the finish line, but it's just, it's hard and tedious work.
So my job does not look like that.
I am more on like, I'd say DevRel-ish.
It's a small team.
So a lot of stuff that I'm doing is more like demo projects or teaching people how to use
Redwood or going to conferences or creating YouTube videos or doing podcasts and stuff
like this.
So a lot of my work is building projects, which is kind of where that build 12 idea came
from is like, okay, I have all these project ideas that I want to do.
Instead of having to pick one, I'm just going to do all of them.
And so that's where the build 12 came from.
Yeah.
So it's ambitious and I'm glad that you asked.
It means a lot to me because it sounds like you're interested in the build 12 project.
I'm still working on it.
There's, so I mentioned this early in one of the updates is that Thomas Frank, he tweeted
about this talking about build mode or cave mode and stage mode is what he called it.
And so a lot of the updates that I did were at the beginning of the year when I was still
on break from work because of the holidays and now trying to juggle everything is really
hard.
And so I've been in build mode.
I've just been heads down focused and so trying to catch hats and talk about things is different.
It's like, oh, I'm totally into this.
I'm in the flow.
I don't want to record a video to say this is what I'm doing.
My original intention was to do more of that.
And so I still want to figure out a way to find a better balance.
But right now I'm feeling the pressure, the fact that there's nine days left in the month
and I've got to figure out how to deliver that project and get across the finish line.
But there's, we can talk about this.
I'll kind of let you drive the conversation.
There's different parts of that that I think I've already learned within the first month,
whether that's scope, whether that's creating packages and things that I can move from one
project to the next and trying to figure out better workflows along the way.
Yeah.
I think definitely if there's more to share on that, I would absolutely encourage you
to dive into that because I think that's the type of stuff that we want to hear about.
What are the challenges that you're facing and how are you getting past those hurdles
and challenges and things that maybe coping methods are different types of process that
you've brought into play to help you with those challenges.
So I think that there's, we can take the conversation different ways.
So one of the things I did last year was I read this book by, I think it's at Julia Cameron.
I think that's her name, but she wrote the artist way.
Have you heard about this?
I have not.
No.
Oh, you would love it.
I think you would love it.
It's really good.
It's more of like a workbook.
So you just read a chapter a week.
I read it over the course of like probably the entire year.
So I wasn't doing just a chapter.
Nice.
There's 12 chapters.
I think through it in three months.
But I just kind of took it very leisurely, but a lot of it has journal prompts and things
like that.
It's focused on helping artists, but it applies to anything, anything I'd say, you know, development,
writing, whatever, whatever your craft is, but getting you unstuck.
And I wouldn't say that I was stuck, but it helps you sink through a lot of the problems
that you have and kind of gives you different tools for doing that.
So one of the things that she really encourages you to do is just a journal every day.
I'm not great at doing that every single day, but it does help.
Like I'll write things and realize I didn't even realize that was a thing.
And it's just on paper.
It was in the back of my brain.
There's something about long form writing it out.
It's a lot slower and more thoughtful than just typing it out.
So I've always, I've always been a journaler, but really since having children, we were
talking about that.
That was one of the things that had kind of fallen off, but I really prioritized.
And so there's several things like that that I feel like I've set the foundation for over
the last year to give me the tools, but also just the energy and the excitement and the
motivation to do this project.
I love that.
I definitely would really enjoy that.
I used to also be a journaler as well.
And I think the day is where, I don't know if you've heard of the Ivy Lee method, but
I was actually just on a podcast and we were talking about neurodivergencies.
So I'm like, I wanted to say I have ADHD, but I'm like, I might not.
I might just be some other human brain because we've broke down a lot of stuff.
But long story short, I have ADHD or I've been diagnosed with ADHD.
And so I started implementing what's called the Ivy Lee method.
And the Ivy Lee method is this idea of making your, the six items are going to get done
each day.
And so when you start your day, you prioritize that list, or maybe you did it the day before.
And then when you end your day, right, you're like, Oh, what's moving to the next day?
And so each day you're, you have these, these six items on your prioritize list.
And hypothetically, I would love to stick to that, but it's something that I like, I
dropped the ball on many days.
But when I do sit there, I tend to actually write a little bit of like a journal.
So when I sit down and make that list, it almost is like a brain dump of like, Oh, but
I'm thinking about this.
I want to do this with my business marketing.
I need to catch up with this person potentially.
And it's just interesting, like truly getting back around to the journaling, like how well
that when you just let it out, it really can help you sort of just work through that.
Like you said, subconsciously not realizing that.
Something is in the back of your mind bothering you.
Yeah, that's right.
So that's, that's been a huge thing.
And I think, you know, just talking about different hurdles with this particular project
is I'm having to approach it differently than I have the rest of my work.
So yeah, previously working at an agency, you're creating this full fledged application
that an entire company is about their business around.
And so you are trying to make it the best you can.
You are trying to, in some cases feature stuff because that's what customers need or the client
is asking for.
And in this case, in order to deliver it and really just try and prove like whether this
product would actually work or not, it's really about what's the core feature in the app.
And that is so hard for me because I'm so good at scope, scope seep.
So I don't know if this is a real thing.
I heard talk about it, but scope creep is when a like a client will push stuff on you
and ask traditional teachers.
So seep is when they, oh, wouldn't this be nice?
Let's add this in here.
And it's not the client's fault.
It's my fault for saying, oh, wouldn't this be wonderful?
So just trying to hold that back and not let myself be my own worst enemy and get in the
way of that.
Yeah.
Man, I am like so guilty of that.
Hey, glad is welcome.
I think that that is definitely, honestly, like, is there any developer that's good at
that unless they're like type A that like doesn't let that seep come in?
Because how do you not when your brain is in that mindset and you're like, oh my gosh,
this would be beautiful because that's like RMO, right, is solving problems.
So I'm definitely a scope seeper myself as well.
Yeah.
Well, and it's another thing too when like in this case, I am all the things.
I am the project manager.
I am the client.
I am the developer.
Whereas when you have an agency, that was always my kind of stop gap and protect.
I was working with a project manager that was able to say, that's a great idea.
Let's stick it in the backlog or like the client didn't ask for that.
So let's make sure that they're okay with that feature before you just stick it in there.
Yeah.
No kidding.
Yeah, I agree.
I think it is hard when we're thinking about our own projects.
And I think sometimes also, and I don't know about you, but like when I'm trying to sort
of just build something for fun or create something, but I want to put that code out into the world.
I also have this level of like wanting it to be perfect, which is problematic.
And so I think the seat comes into play a lot with that because I'm like, well, even
if this is for fun, like someone that could stumble upon this repo doesn't know that it
was for fun and I don't want them to judge my code skills, you know, and so it's easy
to let that happen.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, that's the other beauty of the build 12 thing, the fact that it's
like I have to deliver every single month.
It kind of protects you from that level of perfectionism where you're like, I can't really
sit because I didn't add this thing in yet.
It's like, no, I need to release it because I'm on a deadline.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
I love that.
This sounds fun.
Obviously, there's been a little pressure with this, but like, do you want to share
what you built this month?
Do you want to dive into that a little bit?
Yeah.
Or do you want to wait to unveil it until you're...
No, no, let's do it.
So and this is good because you can kind of bring in some of the framework conversations.
So this month, my project is called the part time startup.
And the idea with this is when we did the Redwood conference a year ago, September, it was
one of my most favorite conferences because it was really centered around founders.
I mean, obviously a lot of people that love Redwood came to the conference, but the things
that we helped them with were marketing or business related.
So the first day that we had people there, we did like this mastermind workshop where
you had to pay extra money to be a part of it, but startups would come in and they would
talk to the Redwood team.
And let me just, I guess, also add like Tom Preston Warner, who started GitHub, was part
of that panel.
So he has a venture capital company that he invests in other companies and startups and
things like that.
So it's not just like a framework team being like, oh, this is what I think.
It's like, no, these people have experience in business and marketing and we're going
to help speak into companies that are using the framework that we're building.
But what was interesting to me about this workshop was that everybody that needed help
did not need help on coding problems, did not need help on execution.
It wasn't like, I'm trying to figure out why this, how to loop over and array.
It was none of that stuff.
It was I'm trying to find product market fit.
I'm trying to figure out how to price my application.
I'm trying to figure out what customers I need to talk to in order to get feedback.
And so there's so much more that goes into building an application beyond just the development.
And so part of the part time startup is to help create a community for people that are
trying to build startups that need expertise from all those other fields.
So the thing that I'm building right now is the platform and then that will launch and
hopefully have other developers that are trying to build things come in.
I'll do hot seeds and do interviews and things like that and bring people on.
So I'm really excited about the community and I'm going to lock in the size of the community
so that it stays nice and small and intimate and we can really help each other.
So I think I'm, I'm excited about the code and the project.
I'm more excited about the other side of that and the community that will come out of that
particular project.
So it'll be fun.
That is so cool.
So I am like extremely excited about this project because that very much is my day to
day is that with my business in the beginning, it was like I was taking fractional dev rel
work and I pivoted to dev tools only early stage dev tools only.
I realized I can't pivot to only early stage dev tools because they don't have all the
money in the world.
So I am again doing pivoting a little bit to be able to do both, right?
But I would say probably the last three to six months I've been hyper focused on technical
founders and that's exactly the problems.
Like we can get into it and we're like, you know, we're talking about tech and whatever
else and like that's great.
Those are problems they know how to solve, but they do not like you said know how to
solve that product market fit.
They don't know how to understand some of those pieces.
You and I should probably chat offline because I'm starting to build a tool that is more
of like an AI tool that will take the insights that I've learned from like these types of
interviews anonymized, of course, plus other developer conversations, other insights I
get, I have developers doing feedback for companies constantly that it's like constant
flow of developer feedback and creating that into essentially like an AI app that someone
who is a technical founder could be like, how do I find my market fit and like having
very scripted sort of prompts to allow them to give them some insights.
So long story short, sounds like you and I have some shared, yes, I'm shared things
here.
So please bring me into that community.
I'd love to help as much as I can.
But yeah, I love that so much.
So do you want to talk about how you built it, the tech stack behind it?
Yes, tell me what you want to share.
Yes, so I'm going to take a step back and it's always better when you have a story,
right?
You have some context.
So last April, I went to ReactConf and spoke at ReactConf and while we were there, people
started talking about Laravel and just trying to find that JavaScript of Laravel type thing.
And I feel like that's something that's very prevalent conversation within the JavaScript
community.
What's interesting, it's like we love our composability.
We love the fact that we can plug and play with whatever we want.
But at the same time, it makes certain decisions harder, right?
Because you're thinking, oh, well, I could use Neon for my database.
I could use SuperBase or my database.
And the problem with me is that a lot of times I'll start going down a certain path.
I'll hit an edge and like, oh, like, yeah, Neon is fantastic, but it doesn't, I'm going
to have to do auth and storage.
And so maybe I should just switch to SuperBase and pull it all in.
And it's like, okay, if you were building any application, you said, I'm going to change
my entire database layer into all these things.
Like that's a major shift in what you're building.
And I know developers in the Rails world and the PHP world just look at us and like, you
guys are crazy.
Yes, yes, we do.
We are.
So part of this is, you know, as a framework maintainer is trying to make sure I understand
all the options that are available.
And so people are saying that Laravel is so great.
I've been curious, like, what is, what is so great about Laravel?
So I leveled up on Laravel last year and was like, I'm going to build this on Laravel.
And of course, like I hit an edge and I'm like, oh, I'm just going to, I'm going to
switch over.
I'm going to try a different framework.
And so part of it has been like, I started building at Laravel and now I'm shifted over
and I'm building this in next right now.
And part of it is because with Redwood, we have been trying to implement RSEs and SSR
and all these other pieces.
And it's, I feel like it's getting to, it's getting close, it's getting to a good point,
but I just know over the next year, I am going to have to talk a lot about SSR educating
people on RSEs and trying to, like, if next is the only viable option right now, compare
and contrast those things.
So some of this has been like an education piece of it, trying to level up for work.
But I just, I also just missed my JavaScript.
So anyways, I've moved over to next.
I'm all in on next right now for this particular project.
But I'm telling you RSEs, I've been slightly skeptical just because it's been so hard for
us to implement, but they really are great.
They're pretty fantastic.
And, you know, I think that's the other piece for me is I can read tutorials, I can watch
the videos, but for me to really get the vibe of the framework and figure out how I feel
about something, I have to build a project in it.
That's when you start to hit the edges and understand, oh, this nesting database thing
is really difficult or trying to generate types on this is really hard.
And so that kind of tends to go into that next piece.
I don't know if you're ready for it, but just figuring out what parts of this project can
I bring on to the next month?
What are the things like forward to make it easier?
And we kind of snowball as the year goes on.
Yeah, I love that.
Arvin's had a comment that I threw up on the stream.
Not sure if that's something you're open to or if this is a Amy sort of building only.
He's Arvin's actually the person that told me that you were building this project.
So I was like, oh, I gotta catch up with Amy.
Yeah.
So yeah, I was gonna say, Arvin reach out to me.
I'm self-teach me on most channels and we can talk.
It's funny that you say that because I've had several people say like we want to jump
in.
I've even had people say that like what are you gonna do in month 11 and now you have
10 projects you're trying to maintain?
Yeah.
I just put off and I was like, that's future Amy problem.
But I've had people that have said like, can we help you build a community or they're
juniors that you can bring on and you can help educate to help with the maintenance side
of things.
So I haven't quite figured all that stuff out, but I have had people asking.
So I take that if multiple people are asking, then there is something there.
There is definitely something there.
I think that's the interesting thing like, you know, coming back to like open source
software, right?
Like that's you play a pivotal role in that of like, there is a whole entire program or
sort of maintenance that needs to go into an open source project.
Should you want it to actually be something that you're maintaining and you're continually
working on?
Of course, you can be like, here's the repo.
Go touch it.
I'm not updating it.
I'm not doing anything to it.
It was a one and done, beautiful, fun project.
But I think naturally you're still going to have those developers go and find it, right?
You know, Arvind or anyone else who is just really eager and excited about what you're
building.
So if you want to, no pressure, I'll just throw this out here.
Like the built for devs hub is very much, I'm trying to curate this.
I'm trying to bring developers together so that they can do these types of things.
There's different subset of so many features in the community platform that I've been able
to graciously receive from graduates to quick shout out to them.
And so in that platform, which these streams go in that platform, but then there's also
we've had live events, we've got round table conversations, we've got one on one dev match
introductions and things like that.
So if you ever want to do something in there to bring together some developers or co-work,
I'd love to host you in there.
So I'm sure you have other, many other places too, but yeah.
I was just talking about this, but I really think that I've actually talked about it everywhere.
And it's been a, my theme for the last few weeks is like developers are so hungry to
hang out with each other right now.
And it's, I don't know if it's post COVID, if it's the job market, if it's, you know,
sort of an anti trust kind of vibe that society sort of has right now generally, you know,
people trying to find their tribe.
So long story short, whatever you end up doing, there are many developers I think would love
to be involved because they're all, they're all discerning for hanging out with their
peers.
Yeah.
That's, that's really interesting.
Definitely food for thought.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I mean, your first project is already going to sort of have a bit of maintenance
to it, right?
If you're bringing together a community, we all know how difficult maintaining and growing
and expanding and actually like having a community will operate.
So have you thought about that or do you have sort of, yeah, what's your, I don't know,
do you want to talk about that?
You're going to build the community or is that like a, we'll think about that later
thing.
Both hands, both hands.
I've also thought about bringing on help.
So have you done the strength finders?
That's really interesting too.
The discs ones or like the, this one is like Gallup.
I think it's just called strength finders unless they change the name.
I mean, I've done like disc.
I've done the motivation.
Yeah, there's a bunch.
Yeah.
I'd love that stuff.
Yeah.
There's a bunch.
So what's interesting about the whole strength finders philosophy is that, you know, sometimes
you'll hear people say like, oh, you need to work on your weaknesses, you know, identify
those and try and build them up and strength finders says, no, that's, that's dumb.
You're already good at certain things.
You're already inclined to certain things.
So why not lean into that?
That's your area of strength.
Bring on somebody else that's good at the points that are your weakness and get them
to fill in those gaps.
So that's obviously not an excuse for bad communication or, you know, not, not being
committed to things, but it does say like, these are the things that I know that I'm
good at.
I feel like we were talking about being 40.
That's something that I've heard and other people that are around that age where it's
coming to terms with this is who I am and I'm okay with that.
Exactly.
So I think for me, it's one of the things I love the community aspect of it.
I have a small discord that I'm a part of that is like my favorite place on the internet
because it's people that are active and, you know, rally around each other and support
each other.
And that's really what I want to build with what I'm doing.
So it's, I love that side of it, but it's also understanding like if I can bring somebody
on to help with the admin stuff, to help with support questions that can send stuff out,
they can't do the design work, they can't do the coding, like let's let them drive that
peak of it.
So I have been thinking about ways to bring people in that are naturally good at that stuff.
But it is their strength that allowed them to focus on the things they're good at and
allow me to focus on the things that I'm good at.
So when you're talking about bringing on community people, that would definitely be an area where
I would love help.
Yeah.
I think that makes sense.
Honestly, I love that very much because I've actually struggled with that in my business
over the last year.
And I wouldn't say struggled per se, but the struggle has been, I am good at certain things,
right?
And there are things I am not good at.
And at this point in time in my career, I've been able to be like, Oh, I'm not going to
be a part of those things.
But the execution of day to day minute little tasks are nearly impossible for me.
And so it has to be like, okay, I'm going to get in my headspace.
I'm going to start working on this thing.
I'm going to get through the little minute tasks, but it's more of I'm the strategist.
I'm the ideation.
I'm the like big picture and very much strong on that side.
And I just have found that I'm like, why is some of this work not working?
Like I had a few different service deliverables that were like me getting into the weeds and
doing some of the devrel.
And I'm like, why are these clients so hard?
And I've had to self reflect and realize, ah, this is the work I should be outsourcing,
right?
It's like, I can be that beautiful strategy and bring in the right people to go and execute
against that strategy.
And it's, I don't know, it's hard to shift into some of that headspace, right?
And it's hard for us to sort of identify these weaknesses.
But gosh, when you can and do that, I think it's really empowering and can change everything,
honestly.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's kind of the next step that people struggle with.
It's like one thing to identify it, but another thing to like publicly admit it to say, I'm
not good at like filling out contracts.
Yes, they take five minutes, but they drain.
You're so draining.
Proposals are my draining thing in that way.
Yeah.
Why not just outsource that piece?
Tell them this is what, what I want to do.
I tell you what has made a world of difference to me is AI.
Yep.
Same.
I'm curious, you know, as you're talking about getting feedback and using AI to do all this
stuff, writing has always been hard for me.
I'm a much better editor than I am a writer.
But I tell you what, Claude and me can knock stuff out.
It's fantastic.
So I just love what AI has opened up in that regard.
Yeah.
Honestly, I agree.
Like especially when it comes to proposals, like I think I'm starting to sort of find
a rhythm and I'm getting to a place of like having a default proposal and I'm going to
strip out what, what doesn't, but with my different service pivots and trying to figure
out what's sort of my rhythm and where do I want to kind of niche into.
It's been hard, but like chat GPT.
So I love Claude and really loved Claude, but Claude's kind of on the fritz lately.
I don't know if you've noticed that.
So I actually started using chat GPT and like chat GPT has been delivering for me a little
bit better, but I will say like that is I need to get past just that empty paper space.
So like I love writing.
I love doing this stuff.
I love like curating these things, but it's the like getting started.
And so I'll be like, I need a proposal and I record every single, um, consult that I
have.
So I go through anonymize it, bring that into mostly Claude cause it's private and I'm in
the private account and pro account.
Um, but I bring that in and I'm like, okay, let's run this, right?
Like what type of, what should be in that proposal?
Like someone in one of my live streams, um, I think it was a couple of weeks ago.
I can't remember who it was, but shout out to Joe Casabona.
That's what it was.
So he told me about a sales life cycle add in, um, to chat GPT where you can essentially
put your anonymized transcript in there and it'll, it'll, uh, summarize your entire sales
conversation.
So beautiful.
So I agree.
And that it's, um, my weaknesses are getting started sometimes in those types of things
and it's been able to get, get me started in those areas that yeah, I previously struggled
with.
I see what, what the thing that made a difference for me with Claude is so you have, you can
set up different projects, but I found like, I would start a chat within the project and
it's like, do you not know that we've already talked about this project 10 times?
Yes.
It's so annoying.
But, but so what I found out, I did a little bit of reading and what it does is it references
your project artifacts that you have, not just your individual chats.
And so if you set up context for like a context document for that project, it will blow the
water out of whatever chat you have.
So for example, um, compressed FM, I have, it's a podcast that I co-host and we have
different artifacts or assets that we will generate with each episode.
So that's chapter notes, um, a summary, it's social posts, audio clips, suggested blog posts,
all these things.
I had previously set up a custom GPT where I just said to chat GPT, hey, generate all
these things.
And it's great because you could just say generate all the assets and it would do it.
But the quality wasn't stellar.
So some of the things that I would say with the chapter, the notes or the summaries, I
was like, I would never say that.
And so I found out like Claude was giving me better results.
Like it was talking more like I talk or, you know, I could still edit things, but, um,
it was still like every episode that I'd started new chat on it was like, it never heard of
compressed FM.
So finally, what I did was I said, I was like, okay, I need to create a context document
to add to the project.
I'm not even sure what it needs.
So I went to Claude and I said, Hey, I'm going to, I want to create a context document
for you for this project.
What do you need to know to make this context document for you successful?
And it asked me a bunch of questions.
I just threw it all in there.
And then you can say any artifacts that Claude generates, you can click a button that says
add to project and it will add that markdown file to the project files.
And so then anything else I asked it, it was like brilliant.
Like I didn't have to explain all these things.
Uh, it was able to deliver social media strategy.
It's been really helpful anytime I've had other, uh, episode assets I need to generate
for it has some context for what the podcast is and who our audience is.
Yeah.
And you know, it's interesting because I use the product, I use the project knowledge
and I also use a little prompting in Claude, right?
Where you can sort of explain what are you trying to do and it'll maintain that with
your project.
But I think this, the thing that I am missing is, is creating the context from each chat.
So just like you said, right?
It's like, okay, what happened in that first chat or what happened in that second chat
that got us to that progress and then updating that project knowledge with the conversation
results, which I think is where I'm sort of lacking.
I honestly need to go back and like I have, I have some templates.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
I was going to say at the end, you can say, will you generate a summary of this conversation
that I can add to the project documents and it'll generate that summary for you that you
can then add.
So I've seen people use that too.
When they'll hit a limit in Claude, that's I think a big difference between Claude and
what I've seen with chat GPTS people are hitting limits.
You can get to the end of the conversation and say, Hey, I need to move to another conversation.
We use summarize all the key points and kind of how we arrived at this so I can add it
to the project or take it to the next conversation.
And it will generate that argument for you.
Yeah.
I need to start doing that.
I honestly, like I have some prompts templates and stuff for the work like I was talking
about with like the product market fit.
And I actually have this whole like developer ecosystem report for early stage dev tool founders,
which sort of compares and contrast their features and opportunities to their competitors,
but also shows them like, Hey, you fit in the market right here.
There is a gap.
Nice.
You can come fit in here.
And so I've started working towards there's prompt those prompts, but it's like, that's
the only space of efficiency.
I think I have, and so I need to spend more time investing in my, my sort of tools to
end process in that way, I think, um, which has been so hard for me in business because
that's actually what I like to do is I like to have this whole beautiful system process.
Everything is automated.
Everything is what it's supposed to be.
But because of like starting a new business with my executive coach, he's like, Don't
do that yet.
You don't know what the process is yet.
And so then I've gone almost this whole year not doing it.
And now I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's killing me.
I'm like, I have to go back to process now because now I am a lot of norms.
And so, um, yeah, it's been interesting.
I think there's a lot to learn.
And I've tried to follow some of the newsletters.
I don't know if you have tips, but, um, I'd love to find someone who's just like using
it like in this way and then communicating about it all the time.
Like this is my win.
I win.
Um, I don't know, kind of guide us a little bit.
I'm sure those exist, but I'd love to find those resources.
So please share them with me if someone's hearing and they have them.
Well, and I was even thinking like some of the stuff that I've been working like I would
like somebody to tell me how you did it.
Yes.
So, you know, we're talking about that cave mode versus stage mode.
I'm like, that's the stuff that I want to share.
Like this is the best way to generate marketing copy for a landing page.
This is how I use the AI to do it.
I think that's super interesting.
Uh, or I did freaking full stack in October around Halloween.
So I did a workshop where I taught people how to build a full stack application called
it freaking full stack, themed it for Halloween.
It was really fun.
But all most of the assets that I use for that project were all generated by AI, whether
that was the copy on the marketing page or the artwork or all that stuff.
AI, I've just been blown away.
I'm like, this is, this is the future.
Um, but I also think you have to have that filter of being able to edit it.
Um, because I will go on the fritz sometimes.
Uh, I do agree.
The longer conversation, the worst results you're going to get.
I've definitely realized that, um, I think also too, it's like, I found sort of the downfall.
I think that was hard for me last year was that as I was trying to grow my business,
I was also like, okay, what am I not thinking about?
Right.
And I think that's what's hard about starting something new.
And so I would go to Claude and just be like, Hey, if I was going to offer services, like
I kind of dumped like, here's what I'm good at.
Here's what I've done.
Dumped in some other resources, some content.
And I was like, what services should I think about?
And I think like I allowed AI to sort of take me down a path.
I was like, Oh, this is good.
And then I would get down it and like, I realized I'm like, dude, I don't really want to be
working on product market fit for like a mid level established startup.
Like that is, I'm not a marketer, you know, like, yes, I can do it.
I get it.
I understand developers.
And so I found myself almost like offering and doing some services that like felt so
accurate and so right for clients.
And sure they were great results, but I was like, this is not what I love doing.
So I will say there's also sort of a negative of AI where I feel like if you're using it
in like open green space, it can definitely guide you.
And I'm not saying it was like, I guided everything, but it sort of slowed me down almost in some
ways and then had to kind of step back and be like, okay, no, I can't use it for all
the things.
Like how do I take who I am and what I want to do and harness it more into how does that
convert into the right services?
How does that convert into the right work and deliverables and things?
So yeah.
Yeah.
I'm convinced more than ever that the stuff that we bring to the table is what is going
to elevate it because you have AI stuff, which is good, but it's like everybody has that
AI layer.
And so it's like, what are people interested above and beyond that?
And that's you.
That's what you have to bring to the table.
It's your experiences and the knowledge that you have.
And that's your competitive advantage that nobody else can offer.
Boom.
I agree with that.
I love that too.
There's many people like Aaron Francis is like a really good advocate of like sharing
what you learned.
Yeah.
Quite a few folks, right?
Like compressed FM, you guys talk about a lot about this too and just sort of sharing
what you learn, all sort of topics.
But I think that's really the essence.
And you know, like with many conversations, I've talked to a lot of developers through
the show and otherwise, and there's the, is AI taking their jobs and it's a hot topic.
And I think it's like the big essence that has come out of from everyone is like, it
can never be human.
It can never be you and have what you have experienced and gone through and what your
brain knows and what you can do as like a human to take something that's computerized
and make it effective for other humans.
So I think that is, I think that's what's going to set us apart from AI generally as
well.
So I love that.
Love that commentary.
Can't see.
Dodds has an interesting take on that too.
Cause he's like, AI is taking your jobs, but it's not the way that you think it's fair
controlling the interview process now.
Yeah.
That's the piece that you gotta put up.
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
I'm going to have to go engage with that.
I'll send you the link if you're interested.
Yes, please do.
Okay.
So you have obviously, you tried Laravel and you went to Next.js.
I am a PHP dev or was I've encoded in a hot minute.
And so I would love to dive into Laravel, the app that I was talking about where I want
to like essentially create this AI agent, right?
To allow folks to sort of tap into the insights I know.
I wanted to build out my entire web website structure in Laravel with, you know, modern
JS like on the front end so that I could learn.
And so like as you were diving into Laravel, are there any sort of lessons or like, why
did you go back to Next.js?
If you don't mind me crying into that.
Yes.
Okay.
So I've kind of come to the realization as a full stack developer, there are two
different ways you can approach a project.
You can work from the back ends to the front end, or you can work from the front end to
the back end.
And a lot of the way that I think the way that I work, and I don't know if that's just
because my design background, but I think more front end to back end.
And so that was kind of where I hit a wall with Laravel is because you kind of want to
build the database, the API first, and then move to the front end.
So the part that I loved about it was the back ends because you can just hammer through
stuff.
They have all kinds of helpers and generators for creating factories and seed files and migrations
and all the things.
But then I really struggled.
And so this is the other thing.
I don't know whether I struggled because I didn't have the experience to get there yet.
And it just would take time for me to be more comfortable with it.
But moving from basically PHP to Blade, their templating language to Livewire, which is
kind of their dynamic RSC thing, to Alpine, using all four of those things together, was
just so hard.
And I don't know if I just didn't, I couldn't wrap my head around that paradigm.
I did have a breakthrough moment, again, going back to AI.
I asked ChatGPT.
I was like, I am a React developer trying to learn Alpine and Livewire.
What are the paradigm shifts that I need to know that will help me understand the differences?
And that was a breakthrough for me because it was like, well, React is all state-based
because you're just maintaining state and saving data.
Alpine and Livewire are more event-based.
So you'll fire off events, which is really how traditional JavaScript works.
You fire off events and you listen for events.
And it was like, oh, that unlocked something in my brain that I was like, I understand
why this wasn't working.
I was trying to save a state and you don't care about the state, you care about the event.
So just things like that that are different.
And I think, as I was saying, it could just be time that as you get more experience, you
get more comfortable in it.
But for Build 12, I'm trying to move fast.
And so I'm just trying to pick more boring tech, even though RSC is kind of cutting edge,
the pick-boring tech that has a lot of support, has a large community and kind of move forward
with that.
Yeah.
And I think too, with like moving fast, it's easier to stay sort of like, I don't want
to say in your lane, but like stay with the tools and things that you're very comfortable
with because you can move quicker there.
That was like my thing with every, even like building my website has been such a nightmare
because I'm like, I just want something quick, you know, like I don't even, I don't need
anything fancy or complicated.
It's just a marketing website.
But my brain was like, okay, well, I know all these things like, how should I go build
it?
How should I go do it?
And then I wanted to try something new.
And it was like, I just went back to like what I knew, right?
It was like, ended up back at Ghost because I'm like, I get Ghost.
It's easy.
It's simple.
It's, you know, handlebar templating so straightforward.
Boom.
You know?
But I think the like developer problem solver in us, right, wants to go out and start to
pry and figure out and learn new tech because like that's what we love.
But it doesn't always mean we're the most efficient with that new tech right off the back.
And another interesting thing, and I grabbed all the numbers for this.
I need to release it in a blog post.
That was my intention is the cost of these services.
So with Lerable, a lot of the stuff is all bundled in.
You get background jobs.
You get, you know, different drivers for storage and email and things like that.
But you do have to figure out hosting.
It's a little bit different situation.
I know that they have cloud.
I'm not sure if that's released or it's coming.
It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
So you have to handle all that stuff.
Whereas in the JavaScript ecosystem, a lot of times we're like, oh, it's free.
It's free.
Yeah.
At what point do you hit those limits?
And because it is composable, it's like, okay, well, I'm pulling in just for jobs.
I'm pulling in, I'm using super base for my database, my authentication and storage.
So what does that look like?
And then not only that, but it's like, okay, if I'm going to do this for 12 projects, what
did the cost look like at one month versus 12 months when I have 12 projects and how
does that scale?
So I did crunch the numbers on that to see what, what's the cheapest option?
What is the cheapest tech stack that I can pull in?
So that's interesting too.
Yeah.
No, that is really interesting.
Honestly, like I think hosting is a whole thing.
Like when people talk about that and I understand like right, like Larval and, you know, it's
a little bit more complicated and everyone's like, oh, the cloud, the cloud.
And I'm just like, I don't like, why the cloud?
Like why, why can't we like set up servers and like, you know, run our own infrastructure?
And, but I think that's like, you know, sort of aging and dating myself, which I feel like
you can probably relate to too.
It's like early on, like you had to know DevOps, you had to know infrastructure, you had to
know kind of everything to build something.
And, and now we kind of run to like this answer of like the cloud and Kubernetes and this
is the way and I'm just like, but it's really complicated.
And if you're just building an app, like why, why, why is that the answer?
But that's a whole nother conversation.
We're probably a whole nother live stream, honestly.
Okay.
So we are nearing our end.
Actually, we're like over the time that I booked.
So I hope that you're still okay for another couple of minutes to wrap up at least, but
perfect.
I would love to hear this is like, we touched on sort of everything that we really got to
talk about.
You said that you went to school for something.
Did you say that you went for something different than like programming and such?
What did you end up going to school for officially?
It's, it's like all related now.
So I, I did get started in web development when I was 16.
I just, my first job ever was, I was updating a website through a CMS.
So I knew like for HTML tags, I knew the paragraph tag, the break tag, old tag, the
italics tag and a anchor link.
And that's all I could do.
I was just, you know, filling out forms in a CMS.
And so then the next summer, I got a job working at the agency that had built the CMS.
And so I show up and they, cause I mean, I kind of worked with them through support
calls and things like that.
So the first day I get my very first ticket.
And then the ticket is to add an image to a website.
And this is like back enough that you had more of that webmaster mentality where if
you need to update your website, you would email the company that you need the update.
So I just had to add an image.
That was the, that was a task.
So simple, right?
I couldn't figure out how to do it.
So I just know my five tags.
I don't know how to add an image.
And so anyways, most of the summer I just spent answering phone calls and trying to
do what I could, but it was, it was so boring.
It was just answering phone calls.
There was a guy there that just kind of believed in me and the fact that I was 16 and hungry.
And so he gave me a book probably about midway towards the end of the summer called, I don't
even remember, HTML for dummies or something.
It wasn't the official book, but anyway, I like blew through that book and I was just,
oh, this is amazing.
Like I understand now how all this stuff fits together.
I understand tables now, you know, all these other pieces, but a huge breakthrough for me
was then I went back to school in the fall.
So that was my senior year and they had a career shadow day.
And so I went back to the agency that I'd worked at that summer and the guy that had
given me the book, I just sat at his desk right behind him and we built a website together.
You know, I mentioned slicing and dicing where you get these images, you create tables and
fireworks and all the things.
I watched him do it.
I looked over his shoulder and I think, you know, that's the value a lot of times with
live streaming is you can see what somebody else's workflow is.
You can see when they hit error messages, what those error messages mean and how they
work through them.
And so for me, there was something that just unlocked that day.
So I came home and immediately just started hacking on my computer, designing a website
that I could build out.
And I ended up going back that next summer and I was a production artist that summer.
Yes, I still answered that.
I was basically doing everything that my supervisor was doing.
I was building websites for clients.
I got to the point where clients would request for me to build their site or to make updates.
And the amazing thing about this, and I just look at this and see like not everybody has
this opportunity, but my heart was really designed.
That was kind of where I came from, what I wanted to be doing.
And they knew that.
And so while I was doing the work, the designers there would say, Hey, these are the client
projects that we're working on.
Will you design a mock up?
And if it's good enough, we'll present it to the client, but if it's not no harm, no
foul, we're continuing to do our work, but you'll get a critique on it.
And so I would design websites that would sit in their critique meetings.
They would tell me what worked and what didn't work with the site design.
And not many got through to the client, but a few did.
And it really just elevated my work.
So I really got on the job training and just professional feedback as a, you know, 17 or
18 at the time.
So just an amazing opportunity.
Yeah.
So when I went to college, I wanted to do animation.
I really thought that I wanted to go work at Disney and do 3D animation stuff.
So I picked a school that had kind of that program.
I wanted to go to a university.
I didn't want to go to an art school.
And so the classes were very limited, but I took a lot of elective art.
I took several electives in computer science and took a few and web development.
What was funny is at that time, I knew more than my teachers did.
No!
So it was a very strict system.
Sitting there when they're instructing and I'm sitting there thinking, that's not the
way to do it now.
Like we're past that.
And so I would help my fellow students with the things that they were struggling with.
And so the great part about that was when I left the agency to go back to school, I
got to the point where I had done so much work over the summer that they had to hire
somebody during the year to fill my spot.
And they hired a girl that they were not crazy about.
They didn't like her.
So six months in, like I came home for Christmas.
I mean, I wasn't far away.
It was like 45 minutes away.
I came home at Christmas and they said, we're going to let this girl go.
We want you to come back and basically remote work before it was a thing.
Like we want you to let you work from Christmas during the year and you just come in and work
on Fridays.
So that's what I did the rest of my college experience was I continued to work with this
company and gain experience and do design work and mockups and things like that.
So just kind of doing this hybrid work from home, work from the office thing.
So that was the start.
And I just, I loved web design and development.
Even though at school I was learning video and animation and graphic, I still just wanted
to stay in the web world.
And the cool part about what I do now is a lot of that merged.
I have experience in editing videos.
I have experiencing graphics and motion graphics and all those things, but all those things
can all live together where the web is right now.
Oh my gosh, that is so beautiful.
Okay.
So I like, I chuckled a little bit when you were talking about knowing more than your instructor
is because so one of my first jobs that I had outside of freelancing.
So I taught myself how to code freelance for a while.
Did a lot of Jumla projects, a lot of like Drupal open source, PHP type of stuff.
And then got my first job.
It was actually a product company, oddly enough in my like podunk small town area, which was
like shocking that it happened.
When I interviewed for that job, we were talking about it and the CEO was asking me questions
and he's like, so wait a minute, you wouldn't use tables to do this.
And I was like, no, what tables are like very old school.
And so when I explained to him like how I felt about dibs and like, you know, blah,
blah, blah, and like the, like I got the job because I told him that tables were old school,
like after the fact.
And so it was awesome.
But the funny thing was, is that that was in like, I don't even know what year that
was, but let's just like fast forward.
I think probably two or probably three years, if I had to guess, I enrolled in a software
engineering program because I had dropped out of college two times at that point in
time.
One first time was criminal justice.
Second time was business management.
And I was just, I'm just not a college person is what I realized, but I was like, I'm going
to try this again.
I want a degree.
I want to prove that I have a degree.
I want to prove that I have my skills.
Got a contract job at a huge agency in Minneapolis, Space 150, if anyone's heard of it.
And when I realized that I was like, okay, I've clearly made it as a dev.
I don't need to go to college.
So I did end up dropping out, but in the class, that same exact thing happened.
The professor was teaching building websites and tables.
And I was literally like, why are we building websites and tables?
This is the old school way to do things.
And he was like, guys, it's not the old school.
And he like did not like my pushback.
And so I'm like, this is not for me.
I do not need to pay to have someone teach me how to do something in an archaic way.
So I just laughed because tables really played in stupidly into my early career.
Of like, yes, that was the beginning.
But then as soon as we learned divs, it was like tables were out and it oddly played
into my career quite a bit.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like I'm mostly self taught or on a job taught because that's where majority,
at least the foundation of my knowledge is.
But my degree is radio TV broadcasting.
Very different.
Well, not very different.
It's kind of adjacent.
But, you know, I think for people that are trying to decide, do I go to college?
Do I not?
You know, some of it depends.
Are you a college person or not?
But there, the main thing, at least that my dad always told me when I was going to school
was you're learning to learn.
And I think that's important regardless of what you're doing in tech.
You have to be able to learn new technologies.
You have to be able to pivot and stay up to date on everything that's changing.
Yep.
I absolutely agree.
I am the hands on learner.
You just throw me to the wolves and I like learned best under pressure where some people
that is not right.
They need to have that sort of foundation before they get into that pressure state.
Okay.
Two minutes left before we'll wrap up.
Because I do have a hard stop at 11 my time.
How do you get unstuck?
This is one question I like to ask everyone.
So if you are stuck on either code or maybe it's something else, I know you alluded to
AI and that example.
But what sort of your mindset and tactics you like to take to get unstuck?
Yeah.
So I would say there's kind of two things maybe, let's see, my family gives me a hard
time because I'm like, I always have two points.
Whatever it is, there's always two points.
Some of it I think is just going back to your workflow.
So you're saying like, I am a hands on person, throw me a problem, but you have a path that
you know this works for me.
This is how I learned things.
And so when I'm designing something and I get stuck, I know this is the path that I
have.
I'll work on a mood board.
I will go to other websites that I find inspirational.
I'll start collecting things.
I'll have that input and then use that as a filter.
There's a process here that I've developed over time and how coding problems, just take
it one step at a time, break it down.
So I think that's one thing.
And I think that's one thing that separates seniors from juniors is a senior person has
enough experience that they know this is how I solve problems.
This is my work.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And that is good at that is walk away.
I'm not good at that.
So hard to just hit what I call the snooze button, the developer snooze button where
it's like, could just give me five more minutes.
I'm almost there.
Five more minutes.
Yes.
There's been so many times there's like, if I will just walk away when I come back,
it's like, how in the world did I miss that problem?
Just to my colon or an uppercase letter, how long did I spend on that?
But anyways, that's been huge for me is giving myself permission to walk away.
I love that.
That has been honestly the most common answer.
And I think that you are 100% right.
I tend to do the snooze thing too.
And I think that sometimes we just need to walk away, either go to bed because it's nighttime
and you just have to walk away or it's like, go do something else.
Or Ducky, where you explain it to someone else, that's like the tactic.
I'll go to my husband and he knows nothing about technology or anything related to the
field.
He was in telecom.
That's as close as he gets with fiber and networking.
And I'm just, I'll even just say it and he's like, okay, okay, but did you know, like,
and he'll just entertain my questions, but it's as I'm explaining it, it's like, boom,
I got it.
He's like, okay, bye.
Good talk.
So I love it.
Yeah, exactly.
I love it too.
This has been such a lovely conversation.
We definitely need to, Arvind suggested that we do a live coding stream together.
I think that would be really, really fun.
My technical chops need to be sort of refined again and sort of, you know, I'm diving back
into like being more deep in the code.
And so I think it would be really fun for us to do that.
So if you're open for that, let's, yeah, let's do it.
I love it.
Okay.
Well, future events, we will live code together.
Arvind will bring you into, you are just such a good advocate for us.
We're using women in code and all the beautiful projects we're working on tonight.
And reach out to me, direct message me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
So on that note, before we wrap up quick, I know it's the one minute after, but final
thing, where can folks find you?
So they can reach out to you, learn about, learn about all the projects you're building,
learn about Redwood, all the cool stuff that you do.
Yeah.
So I'm self-teach me on most platforms.
And if you go to build12.com, there's a newsletter there.
So you'll see information about the project.
We'll get information about each month's announcement, part-time startup, all the things.
I love that so much.
I think I need to actually subscribe to that.
So I will be over there subscribing soon.
Fabulous.
Well, I will put all those places in the show notes so folks can find Amy.
Thank you so much for spending a good chunk, an hour of your day with me.
It has been absolutely amazing.
And this conversation has been so great.
Awesome.
Yeah, it's easy peasy.
I know, right?
It's, we just talk shop, which is like fun.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, I hope everyone has a fabulous rest of their day.
Tomorrow, my guest is Tejas.
If anyone hasn't met Tejas Kumar, he is a lovely human being.
So amazing human today, amazing human tomorrow, and pretty much amazing humans every single
day.
So I look forward to seeing everyone tomorrow.
And yeah, reach out to Amy.
Bye folks.
Have a great day.
Bye.