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Hello, hello. Good morning for those of you in the US.

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I am super excited to chat with Nick,

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but I say that every day.

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I'm pretty sure that's my intro every single time,

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but I'm just so blessed with these amazing guests.

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Nick, I would love if you could introduce yourself.

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Yeah. Thanks again for having me on, Tessa.

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Of course.

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Yeah. My name is Nick Taylor.

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I'm from Montreal, Canada,

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so East Coast representing.

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And currently I'm a developer advocate at a company called Pomerium.

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The TLDR there is, if you've never heard of that, is basically,

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I'm going to read it just so I make sure I get it right.

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But we're like zero trust identity aware proxy platform

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that enables secure client list connections to web apps

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without the need of a corporate VPN.

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And we can dive into that a bit if you want to.

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But all it says,

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I've kind of been in the industry for quite a while.

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It's been professionally since 2002 been working,

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and it's kind of been all over the map really,

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like different domains, full stack front end,

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now officially developer advocate,

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because people always think I'm a developer advocate.

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So I was like, you know what, let's do this.

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Yeah.

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Well, you're good at putting yourself out there,

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which I think is like one of the key traits of a developer advocate

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is the ability to go hang with devs and help them and support them.

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You know, what's your grade at?

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Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah, it's I'm extroverted,

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so it definitely easier for me to talk to people.

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Like I'm that person that can go randomly up to somebody and come and say,

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hey, what's up? Can I sit here?

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Like, you know, and I know not everybody's like that,

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but if you aren't, I think you can still leverage that

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even if you're introverted or ambivert.

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Just might look a little different, but yeah.

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Yeah, I totally agree with that.

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It's actually interesting because like every time I do Myers-Briggs,

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it says I'm like crazy extroverted.

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But then when I'm at like a conference,

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even if I'm hanging with developers,

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but if I'm specially hanging with non developers,

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I am like wiped once I'm done hanging out with people.

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But it's developers and I'm like in it.

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Sorry, I got distracted by this.

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Like re streams really jacked up that you and I are streaming at the same time.

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They're like, well, streams are connected.

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Yeah, anyway, so long story short,

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got to love the derailment moments.

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So I was like kind of chuckling a little bit

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because as you were like, you know,

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describing your new role in new company,

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obviously it's like pretty new for you.

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So, you know, that like learning curve

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when you're a developer advocate that's supposed to advocate

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for a product that you don't know yet, you're like, OK, let me,

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let me just figure out that elevator speech

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and you like slowly improve it over time.

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And it's interesting because I was

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and I'm going to get into the question here.

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As I was always that part always felt like the hardest.

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I felt like the biggest imposter,

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like going into a new company as a developer advocate,

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not as a software engineer, because I was like, oh, we're different.

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It's different. We're all right in code.

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But I don't know why as a dev advocate, I was like, I got to come in.

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I got to know stuff.

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I got to understand it.

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And that like learning curve in the beginning is so hard.

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And now I'm doing it with multiple clients.

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And I'm like, what have I done to myself?

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All these learning curves.

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But how are you essentially like, I know that it's sort of new for you.

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But to dive into that, like, how is the learning curve?

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Like, how are you finding sort of diving into developer advocacy

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versus software engineering in this case?

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Yeah, well, like I alluded to before.

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So like I've been working professionally in open source,

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I like literally getting paid to work in open source.

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I started at Dev2 and then Netlify and then I was at OpenSauce.

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And now I'm here at Pomeranian and Pomeranian is open core.

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So like the like the literal core of the product is open source.

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You can use it even if you don't have like enterprise

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or like another offering we have.

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Obviously, you know, we do want to make buddy at some point.

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So hopefully enterprise people, you know, go to it.

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But for sure, it's I think to your point,

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you're asking about like just learning the product.

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You like the learning curve of a Dev advocate.

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Just it feels so stupid.

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I don't know why.

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Do you feel like it feels so steep?

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I think I don't want to say I'm different.

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But because I've been full time engineering, like because like what I was

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mentioning before, like I was literally full time engineering all my roles up

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until now and I just kind of did did Dev advocacy as a part of it

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without realizing, I guess.

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But I think having a strong engineering background has made the learning curve

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a lot easier. But that said, there's still like stuff I'm not aware of.

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Like, and and it's kind of funny because like

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they didn't really have a developer.

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I'm the only developer advocate there right now.

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And they didn't really have an interview process for it.

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I mean, I mean, I did meet my manager who's head of marketing and stuff.

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And we definitely talked about stuff.

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But what I mean is they're like, we're not really sure what to interview.

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Like I showed pieces I had done in videos and stuff.

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But I basically did the back end interview.

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So I had to basically code and and people might say like, Oh, man,

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that's not fair. But honestly, I think it was a good thing

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because it's a very technical product.

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And so I think it was to my benefit that I had to do that.

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And yeah. And it like, you know, it's not like we're building

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a rocket ship to go to Saturn or something.

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But it's, you know, but it is still a potentially complex product.

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Like it's a I think it's easy to use.

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But like anything that is easy to use, it's kind of complex to make

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something simple, you know what I mean? Yeah.

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So anyways, all that to say is I think

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having done that test, I actually got a taste for like what the product actually does.

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And I've actually used it locally because like I said, it's open core.

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So like, like a hobbyist can use it.

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So like I basically set it up on my own machine just to see how everything works.

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But that but that said, like I'm drinking from the fire hose right now.

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It's like I'm literally on day eight today.

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Like I'm like seven and a half right now.

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And, you know, I don't know about you, but like there's always nice

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onboarding processes and stuff at most of the places I've worked at in recent years.

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But my my introduction to a new role has always been baptism by fire.

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And I don't know if you'll say that or if it's OK to say that.

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But if somebody in the chat, if it's not cool to say that anymore, I love you,

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though. But like basically, it's just like you know, yeah.

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And like I still did my onboarding and stuff.

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But it's just like I've already got PRs up to fix some of the documentation.

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I'm posting some work to other open source

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repos to show how to configure our product with theirs.

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And I'm also like I think the main thing that's new for me

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is I've never been under marketing.

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So it's not bad thing.

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It's just it's just new for me.

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That's all that's all I mean.

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And my team's awesome.

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It's Roxie says can't cancel me.

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Thanks. Well, please let me know what is it?

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Baptism by by I don't know what LED light.

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I don't know what do we say?

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Anyways, I can't say there.

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Oh, man.

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That's that's a weird tangent for a second.

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But I got a haircut like two days ago and because I my hair grows really fast.

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And I look like the Lion King quickly.

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And I was like I was like number one on the sides, which is what I normally do.

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But the top it was literally like about it's like about this tall before.

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And I like to go off take off half.

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And I think she took off seven eighths.

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So like, I don't know, basically, I got a brush cut.

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So it'll it'll it'll probably back to Lion King in a week.

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So we'll be like, gosh, my husband would be so jealous.

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Like he started balding when he was like 21, I think.

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So he's like completely bald now.

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But he really wants the Brad Pitt hair in whatever that fury movie is where it like

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has like to be down the middle.

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So it sounds exactly like the hair he wants.

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Cool. Cool. Cool.

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Yeah. Anyway, sorry. Sorry for derailing that.

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I blame my decision in the chat asking about hair.

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But so we were just talking about reporting to marketing, like, you know,

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it's happened that obviously your day eight, right?

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So that's like a new thing.

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I would say like marketing is my least favorite team to report to.

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I'm saying that, like, and I mean, that's like not a bad way, but in just like

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they have different objectives, you know, than like what you think about as like

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an engineer and sort of what developers think about.

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And so sometimes it's really hard to like connect all those dots together of like,

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OK, you care about this, but I care about documentation.

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I think that's that's like, you know, sort of the barrier, at least that I feel like

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most experience in that like marketing reporting structure, other than that,

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like it's actually really cool because you're like end up being a superhero

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because like most of them are not usually super technical.

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And so they're like, oh, whatever, like they don't understand something.

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And you're like, oh, it's just this.

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And they're like, oh, my gosh, you're a God, which is I mean, who doesn't love that?

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Yeah. No, no, no pressure, Nick. No pressure.

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But no.

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No, like the team's awesome.

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And it's just more like, like you said, objectives are different than engineering,

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obviously. But I think coming with a strong engineering background to your point

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is like it's actually helpful.

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And it's also, I think, good for me because like I'm under I'll understand

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more about the business over time, too, because yes, you know.

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So but yeah.

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But no, I got I got an awesome crew.

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So like and I think I think the other thing is like, I've, you know,

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I've given conference talks and gone to conferences.

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I'll just end up going to more now, which I'm I'm totally game for.

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Yeah.

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I think one thing that's different and it's it's not a bad thing, but like

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people typically know me from the Web Dev community.

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So like front end or full stack.

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And so like, for example, I'm going to KubeCon in London

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and the North America one this year.

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And that's more like infra Kubernetes, obviously.

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And we're like a security company.

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So it's, you know, there's definitely overlaps in those communities.

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But it's like to some degree, it's a new community.

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And which I'm totally game to just say hey to whoever.

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But it's just something different, you know what I mean?

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And it's definitely not a bad thing.

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It's just I get to make new friends, basically. So.

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Yeah, you know, like that's absolutely probably my favorite thing about DevRel.

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Because I've been able to go from like, I think like so WordPress, Dev Ops.

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News, Twitter calls himself news, but social media, you know, like news.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Bintech.

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And then over to more like one security, that one was hard getting into security is hard.

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So if you need to like have battle, battle, wound, war, cries, like

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you just hit me up, we can talk about that security was hard.

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And then over to like AR augmented reality, which is like a whole new community.

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And I will tell you honestly, I think that's my favorite thing of DevRel is

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actually getting to go into now that you say this, like getting to go into

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these new communities and make new friends.

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Because you have to take those skills and like you might be introverted or

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extroverted, but you literally have to be like, Hey, Hey, person sitting on a

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bench at a conference.

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I don't know anybody.

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So I'm just going to start making friends everywhere I go.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it is, it's definitely different.

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But it's also like, I don't know.

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I think it's exciting.

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I don't know if it's exciting to you, but it's, it's like new friends.

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Yay.

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Yeah.

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No, I'm excited.

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And I, I mean, that said, I do know some people in the space, you know,

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not super well, but like, but yeah, no, I'm just excited to meet new people.

242
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:08,240
And like one of the things about the, you know, the developer advocacy role is

243
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,480
like, at least right now, like I'm trying to create awareness of the product to

244
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,160
so like it's, it's just a friend.

245
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:17,000
It's just a fun time.

246
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,040
I'm going to be having people on as guests to just talk about, you know,

247
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,040
like, I don't know, it's, I'm curious about your thoughts.

248
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,680
Like we were talking briefly before the, the live stream, but like,

249
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:29,040
I am not a sales person.

250
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,920
Like I never will be, you know, if, if, if I worked for a company with a bad

251
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,360
product and they said, you're doing sales, I'd be like, you probably shouldn't buy

252
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:43,600
this, you know, like that's, that's, you know, like that said, our product is good.

253
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,600
That's the one I'd be, but.

254
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:45,400
Yeah.

255
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,400
But yeah, I lost my trade.

256
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,840
I thought there, but it's.

257
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,840
Ask me something about, and then talk about sales.

258
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:53,840
Yeah.

259
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:55,840
Yeah, I forget.

260
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:56,840
I lost it, but.

261
00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:57,840
Yeah.

262
00:12:58,840 --> 00:12:59,840
Yeah.

263
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,840
No, it's, yeah, it's, it's just, oh yeah.

264
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:11,440
Like there's a balance, I think that is potentially difficult for developer

265
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:17,080
advocacy where you're trying to create awareness of your product, but you can't

266
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,640
come across as a shill either.

267
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:19,640
You know what I mean?

268
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:20,640
Yeah.

269
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,840
Like, hey, welcome to the live stream, buy our product.

270
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,840
You know, obviously, I mean, I'm being a very explicit, terrible example there,

271
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,640
but like, you know, and.

272
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,840
Like, so you just have to, you know, and I will tweak this as I go along, I

273
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,840
think, but like, I think it's just finding that balance where like you want

274
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,840
to build community, you want to build awareness of the product, but you don't

275
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,840
want to be like some kind of come off as like sleazy sales person and nothing

276
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:49,840
against sales.

277
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:50,840
That's not what I mean.

278
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:51,840
We have some great sales people too.

279
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:52,840
That's what I'm saying.

280
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:53,840
All the wrong things.

281
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:55,840
That's okay.

282
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:56,840
I, I think you're not though.

283
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,840
See, that's the thing is like, I think what you're sharing is like how

284
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:00,840
developers see it, right?

285
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,840
Like this is how developers think, but we don't necessarily think that sales

286
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,840
people are sleazy, but like in our dev mind, we're like, you see, you see,

287
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,840
in our dev mind, we're like, you stop us from building, like go, go back.

288
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:12,840
Yeah.

289
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:13,840
And it's like, yeah.

290
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:19,840
And we've talked about this before, but like, just in terms of like a product.

291
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:20,840
Yeah.

292
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,840
I don't know about you, but there's very few products I buy, but when I buy

293
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,840
them, it's like, cause I use it all the time.

294
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,840
And like this is like just, I think cause there's been an explosion of dev

295
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,840
tooling and like, and there's a lot of cool stuff out there.

296
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,840
But at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, cool.

297
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,840
But, you know, yes, I could afford it, but like, I don't really need that, you

298
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,840
know, like, and like, so like, I've, I've kind of found like, like, you know,

299
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,840
I have a good core set of tools that I pay for.

300
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,840
And it's all that to say is like, I think it's difficult to find product

301
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,840
market fit aside from like, Hey, that's cool.

302
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,840
And like, and it's also, you know, like a lot of dev tools, it starts with a

303
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,840
lot of bottom up, which doesn't really make any revenue and there's a free

304
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,840
tier and that that's good to create awareness.

305
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,840
But like sometimes like you've seen like several companies have got rid of

306
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,840
another free tier because it's actually a burden to manage as well, potentially.

307
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,840
I'm not saying that you shouldn't have free tiers.

308
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,840
I think they're a good idea to get people like when I worked at Netlify,

309
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,840
like we had a free tier, we still have a free tier there, you know,

310
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,840
Vercel has a free tier too.

311
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,840
And the reason is like devs end up liking those products.

312
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:40,840
Yeah.

313
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,840
And then long term, these, these people that were using the free tier,

314
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,840
maybe they upgrade, but a lot of times these people end up working at

315
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,840
companies and they're like, Netlify is awesome or Vercel is awesome.

316
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,840
You know, and I think we should use that product, you know, and like,

317
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,840
so that's, that's where the bottom up helps.

318
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:57,840
Yeah.

319
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,840
But it's like, I don't know.

320
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,840
I don't really have an answer to what I would say.

321
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,840
There's just more like observations, I guess, but yeah.

322
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,840
Well, I think like, you know, to kind of speak to like what you were saying

323
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,840
there, right, is that you're going to kind of navigate that beginning of like,

324
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,840
how do you start to build those relationships without feeling salesy?

325
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:13,840
Yeah.

326
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,840
Honestly, the best technique that I have had was office hours.

327
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,840
So like Pitchett office hours.

328
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,840
And so this is like what I have done in the past anyways, doesn't mean it's

329
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,840
the way to do it, but brought together like the team, right?

330
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,840
So can someone from product come, can someone from Eng come, depending on if

331
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,840
they want to be involved with customers or not, right?

332
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:32,840
That's a whole thing.

333
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,840
But, you know, maybe someone from product marketing has come just to kind of

334
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,840
like the dynamic and what the team objectives are, like who wants to

335
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,840
start to meet devs, but very much friendly.

336
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:42,840
They love seeing DevRel in there.

337
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,840
They love seeing product in there because then they could talk about the product.

338
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:45,840
What do we expect?

339
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,840
They could ask for things and then DevRel could kind of dive in.

340
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,840
Then we have partner engineer who was like technical in this case, because

341
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,840
DevRel was more community, but long story short, just a candid conversation,

342
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:56,840
right?

343
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,840
An hour long, whatever, even if you want to do two hours long where it's like

344
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,840
come and go and it's an open time, they're like incredibly lucrative

345
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,840
because then devs just sort of join.

346
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:05,840
They don't have to say anything.

347
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,840
They can kind of just walk and hang out.

348
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,840
But then when it's like, oh wait, I feel comfortable or they're talking about

349
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,840
something I care about, then they can jump in and then like over time,

350
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,840
that actually was the technique that I've leveraged many times to get devs into

351
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,840
the community forums to start empowering other developers, right?

352
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,840
Start to help the other developers and you start to like create what you were

353
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,840
just talking about with like favorite products, like your advocates, you know?

354
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,840
Like if we love something, we will go and talk about it.

355
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,840
So if you can create those customers, right?

356
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:34,840
Like that's, yeah.

357
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,840
So anyways, that's what I love Office R's for.

358
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,840
It feels very authentic to join, but it's very like lucrative on the tail end too.

359
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:41,840
Yeah, for sure.

360
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,840
And like in terms of building that community, because I've literally done

361
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:53,840
this before, I worked at Dev2 and like we like, I think a lot of times naively

362
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,840
people, hey Fatuma, good to see you.

363
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,840
Sorry, Fatuma, just joined the chat.

364
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,840
Definitely say hi.

365
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:07,840
You know, I think people think community is potentially just microwavable.

366
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,840
Like, okay, create Discord, press start.

367
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,840
Okay, 300,000 people.

368
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,840
And I know Jason's in the chat from Torq and like he's doing a great job

369
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,840
building out community, but it takes time.

370
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,840
Like when I started working at Dev2 in January 2020, and I think,

371
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,840
I can't remember the number of members we had at the time, but it was

372
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,840
probably like maybe a hundred thousand.

373
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:37,840
By the time I left, we were like over a million in like 20, is that 20,

374
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,840
it was like mid 2022.

375
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,840
And I remember that.

376
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:47,840
And the reason why, I mean, I still think it's a good platform, but the

377
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,840
reason why was we were so engaged with the community.

378
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,840
Like even though I was full-time engineering, I was always like commenting

379
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,840
on people's posts and like, and it's, you know, and just like, like you said,

380
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,840
creating awareness of like, like at one point, like people just

381
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,840
associated me with Dev2 because like I was always out there.

382
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,840
That's how we met, I'm pretty sure, or got first.

383
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,840
Yeah, exactly.

384
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,840
But like, all that to say is like, I think having a community around your

385
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,840
product is important, but it's not, it's not going to happen overnight.

386
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:25,840
And I think sometimes people think of that unrealistically, you know,

387
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,840
just throwing that out there for anybody who's starting a community,

388
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,840
because like I've literally gone through it.

389
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:37,840
And it takes a lot of time because like, at one time, like Dev2

390
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,840
eventually became like, Dev2 still exists, but like the main product became

391
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,840
this generic platform that you could use.

392
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,840
And so like we were dog-fooding it.

393
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,840
And basically I created my own community.

394
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,840
I had vscodetips.com, which I still own the domain if anybody wants to buy that.

395
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,840
But like I created the community just to make sure like the product was

396
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:00,840
working well.

397
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,840
And I was putting time into it, but then I closed down the community eventually

398
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,840
because it was literally just me managing it.

399
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,840
And I just did not have the time to do it.

400
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,840
And it was unfair to me and unfair to the community.

401
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:22,840
So like, you know, and that's just another thing where you need people

402
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:23,840
to kind of step up in the community.

403
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,840
You don't literally have to say like you need to become a moderator.

404
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,840
But like I see like Jeff Jesse's in the chat who's awesome.

405
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,840
He's been a moderator at Dev2 for years now, you know, like, and like I

406
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,840
remember even Stack Overflow in the early days, like I became a moderator.

407
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,840
And like it's weird because like people built this product, they're making

408
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,840
money off of it, but you're still happy to contribute to it in some way.

409
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,840
You know, which, which if you think about it, like why am I doing this for free?

410
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,840
Like if you, if you go like forget emotions or anything, but it's just

411
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,840
like people just get invested in these things, you know, and it's like,

412
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,840
and anyways, community.

413
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:07,840
No, I loved it.

414
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,840
I think you were on a beautiful rant.

415
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:10,840
I agree with that.

416
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,840
Like the way that I actually got started into like actually building websites

417
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,840
was building a huge guitar hero community of like tournaments.

418
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,840
And getting like recognized in their forums and I was a moderator and got

419
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,840
cool swag and like, yeah, it's a, I think it's just like our way of like

420
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:25,840
getting involved, right?

421
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,840
And I know that developers specifically, like we really enjoy hanging out

422
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,840
with their peers, whether we're extroverted or introverted, like this

423
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,840
is true of all developers, like they all want to spend time with their peers.

424
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,840
Yes, they could get tired and need to like rest and recuperate, right?

425
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:39,840
But they still want to do it.

426
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,840
And I think it's the same with like any passion we deeply have, right?

427
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,840
Like I was just seriously nerding out on guitar hero and video games at that

428
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:47,840
stage in my life, right?

429
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,840
And so it was just a beautiful thing for that part of my life.

430
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:51,840
Yes.

431
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:52,840
See, Roxy gets it.

432
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,840
Every time I see guitar hero, I'm just like, it's like my heart skips a beat

433
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:56,840
again.

434
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,840
It's just, but I haven't played it in years except for at bar arcades.

435
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,840
Anyways, but I do agree.

436
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,840
There is definitely a lot of, there's a lot of time.

437
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:08,840
And effort.

438
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,840
Like if you ask Jason, you know, someone in the chat that you'd mentioned,

439
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,840
how much energy he puts in the community building, I can only imagine.

440
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:15,840
Like I know that he's on his phone.

441
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,840
He texts people, he's talking to people, he's building relationships.

442
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:24,840
Like it is a ton of work, like a ton of for sure.

443
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,840
Yeah, no 100%.

444
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:27,840
And yeah.

445
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,840
And also just want to say hi to Richard in the chat.

446
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,840
I'm trying to say hi to everybody, but I don't want to just end up saying hi,

447
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,840
hi, hi the whole.

448
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:37,840
No, it's all good.

449
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,840
You're really good on your stream with like bringing people's comments and

450
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,840
stuff up where I'm like deep ingrained in the conversation.

451
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,840
So I'm like, oh, hey, there is a chat.

452
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:46,840
Yep.

453
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,840
Cool.

454
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,840
It takes time to navigate that because like, I'll be live coding.

455
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:53,840
I'll be checking the chat.

456
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,840
And if I have a guest, so it's like, I don't know, not that I think people

457
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,840
think live streaming is easy, but like it, there's a lot more going on than

458
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,840
you realize.

459
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,840
So.

460
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:04,840
Plus the beverages.

461
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,840
We had to talk about this ahead of time, like run around quickly and get all

462
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:09,840
my beverages.

463
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:10,840
Yeah.

464
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:11,840
Yeah, exactly.

465
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,840
Got to be ready.

466
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,840
Okay.

467
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,840
So you spoke to a little bit of some of the stuff that you're doing in your

468
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,840
day job already eight days in like pretty impressive.

469
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,840
Let's like double tap back into that.

470
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,840
You had mentioned some docs.

471
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,840
I think you're doing some partnerships, some connections with some other open

472
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,840
source repositories.

473
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:29,840
Super cool.

474
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:30,840
That's like meaningful work.

475
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,840
Do you want to kind of speak to that a little bit more?

476
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:33,840
Yeah.

477
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:39,840
I don't have the PR up yet, but like, it just, it's a little technical, not a

478
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,840
big deal, but like basically our product can act as a reverse proxy.

479
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:50,840
So like post-hog it, which is a pretty popular analytics platform for capturing

480
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,840
events, whatever.

481
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,840
If anybody has an ad blocker, like you block or, or similar, or your browser

482
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,840
just blocks like, you know, ads and stuff.

483
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,840
Yeah.

484
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,840
So it recognizes like known like analytics platforms.

485
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,840
So what you can do is like say like my site, Nikki T.co.

486
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,840
If I added post-hog to it, I could add a sub domain like called like E.

487
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:16,840
Nikki T.co.

488
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840
And that could be a proxy to post-hog.

489
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,840
And then because it's under my domain, it, the, the, you know, the blockers

490
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,840
won't block it because it's like, Oh, it's traffic from your own site.

491
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:28,840
You know what I mean?

492
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,840
So like there's many ways you can do this.

493
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,840
There's other, there's other offerings that do this, like the docs on

494
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,840
post-hog.com, which is a open source repo, by the way.

495
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:44,840
You know, there's like set up for Vercel, Netlify, Remix, Cloud front, a few.

496
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,840
And anyways, like, Pomerium is, is a good use case for that too.

497
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,840
So basically I just opened up an issue said, Hey, like I'd like to add

498
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,840
Pomerium to one of the options and, you know, the, one of the

499
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,840
maintainers from post-hog is like, Yeah, it's cool.

500
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,840
Yeah, go for it.

501
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,840
Just, just tag me when, when the PR is up.

502
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,840
So it's, it's a, it's a nice thing because one is creating awareness about

503
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,840
the product, but it actually, it actually solves an actual problem too.

504
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,840
It's not, it's not just like put my thing in there kind of thing, you know,

505
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,840
and yeah, aside from that, yeah, I've been, I've been going through our docs

506
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,840
just to like, I don't know about you, but like, even though our product is

507
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,840
super technical, I want to be able to go through the docs and I can literally

508
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,840
copy paste things and just run it.

509
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,840
And so like, stupid, stupid stuff.

510
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,840
Yeah.

511
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,840
So I found some things where it's just like, just be more explicit.

512
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,840
Like this is how you can set this setting.

513
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,840
Just some, just some improvements.

514
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,840
And like, this is going to be an ongoing thing, but like, because I have to

515
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:50,840
showcase the product at some point.

516
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,840
And if I point to the docs and I can't just say, copy this and then you're

517
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:56,840
good to go kind of.

518
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,840
So, so I've been doing that too.

519
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,840
And one thing I've been doing too is like just asking lots of questions and

520
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,840
we have like a dev channel in our Slack.

521
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,840
And I've definitely had some one-on-ones with people on the team already,

522
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,840
like my whole team, I met with Bobby, our CEO for a one-on-one and setting up

523
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,840
some recurring one-on-ones, just to, you know, like, hey, how's it, you know,

524
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,840
just to catch up, but also just like, hey, how do you think this is working?

525
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:29,840
Or like, tomorrow I got a one-on-one with Svetlana, one of our QA.

526
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,840
So just want to hear about the work she's doing and also she's working on a

527
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,840
Terraform provider.

528
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,840
She's testing it.

529
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,840
And so like, I don't know anything about that yet.

530
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,840
So I just want to kind of ask her questions about that.

531
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,840
So, yeah, I think, I don't know.

532
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,840
I guess one of the things that attracted me to the product is I've really been

533
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,840
enjoying working in open source.

534
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,840
And even though there is an enterprise aspect and a paid tier for this,

535
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,840
it's still open source at its core, like literally open core.

536
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,840
And, and I don't know, ideally, if I can work in open source and get paid the

537
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,840
rest of my life, that would be ideal for me.

538
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,840
But like, you and I are the same here.

539
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,840
So it's just fun and like, like I alluded to this before talking about

540
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,840
community, but like literally one of my favorite things is like hanging on a

541
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,840
stream like this or like having a guest on, doing some live coding,

542
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,840
talking about somebody's project, you know, and like, and these things have

543
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:33,840
nice, nice side effects eventually, you know, but, and it's, and it's, it all

544
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,840
comes back to, you know, just building the community, you know, and it's

545
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,840
like, and again, I can't reiterate this enough, but it just takes time to

546
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:43,840
build a community.

547
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,840
It really does.

548
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,840
Yep.

549
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,840
It does.

550
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,840
And I mean, when you think about it too, it's like building a relationship.

551
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,840
Like I like to compare community to like dating, but I also, my, my favorite

552
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:54,840
analogy is actually a garden.

553
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,840
So I should probably use that instead.

554
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,840
Like, instead of swipe left.

555
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,840
Swipe right.

556
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,840
Well, the dating thing is like, you don't just roll in and you're like, oh,

557
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:04,840
do you want to make out?

558
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,840
You know, it's like, that is just not a thing you do.

559
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,840
You like cord situations.

560
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:10,840
You're like, yes, right?

561
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,840
Like you build it up.

562
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,840
Well, well, you could, but you know, results may vary.

563
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:16,840
Right.

564
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,840
Results may vary.

565
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:18,840
Same to community, right?

566
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,840
You roll in and start talking to a Dev and you're like, hey, you want to

567
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:21,840
come hang out?

568
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,840
They're going to be like, who are you?

569
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,840
But the garden analogy actually is really fitting because it's like, I always

570
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,840
say that it's like, put the seeds in, right?

571
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:29,840
You're planting the seeds.

572
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,840
So like right now you're planting seeds, you know, and like, you've got a few

573
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,840
months before you're like, oh, my seeds are starting to sprout.

574
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,840
Oh, Jason, here we go.

575
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:39,840
Excuse me.

576
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,840
Your seeds are starting to sprout, you know, and then you can start to grow.

577
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,840
Probably shouldn't have made that silly comment, but that's how you do it.

578
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:48,840
Don't worry.

579
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,840
This isn't live.

580
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:50,840
We can edit it later, right?

581
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:51,840
Yeah, there we go.

582
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,840
There we go.

583
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,840
I will say if I wasn't married, how you do and probably would work on me,

584
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,840
honestly, even if someone was rolling in to try to get me to join their

585
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:02,840
community because I'm obsessed with friends.

586
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,840
So, hey, sometimes it is knowing their personality.

587
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,840
But all joking aside, right?

588
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:07,840
It's like, it is not easy.

589
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,840
And I think that that actually has been really, one of the things for me in

590
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,840
my business has been kind of hard because I really want to have that as a

591
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,840
service deliverable, right?

592
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,840
That I am like effectively building community.

593
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:25,840
But there it is, it's not impossible to prove, prove, prove that there is

594
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:26,840
something happening.

595
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,840
But how do you get someone to keep investing to be like, it's not the results

596
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,840
you want yet, but they're getting there.

597
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:33,840
Like I'm, I'm close.

598
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,840
That's not like no one wants to see that.

599
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,840
And so it's been more fundamentals of what is strategically need to happen.

600
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,840
And here's how your, your team can go build community, which is fine.

601
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,840
But man, do I miss actually being the one to build it.

602
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,840
So that's what the built for that.

603
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:48,840
How this for?

604
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,840
Yeah.

605
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Who knows?

606
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,840
Maybe, maybe, maybe try in the community.

607
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,840
Hey, want to make out if it's not in the code.

608
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:56,840
I don't know.

609
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:57,840
I don't know.

610
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,840
In all seriousness, no, though, don't do that.

611
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:01,840
Don't do that.

612
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:02,840
Yeah.

613
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,840
That is not the way to introduce.

614
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:05,840
Yeah.

615
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,840
But I think it's interesting too, cause I really think that like sort of developer

616
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:10,840
relations generally, right?

617
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,840
If we kind of like take a step back, it's like, it is just this idea of like hanging

618
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,840
out with their peers and the same exact way that you and I are doing this.

619
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,840
Like if you and I were coding with your company's product, boom, you're like

620
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:22,840
working, right?

621
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,840
But you're doing something that you like love doing.

622
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,840
And I think that's, that's like, I love it so much.

623
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,840
It's like, I'm just like, yes, yes.

624
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,840
I get to like hang out with my people and get paid to like hang out with them.

625
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:34,840
Yeah.

626
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:35,840
Totally, totally.

627
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:42,840
And I think I don't, I don't think it's a spicy take, but I think like it's super

628
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,840
important to be super technical as well.

629
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:53,840
Like there was, there was like a period during the Zerp era, like the 2020s to

630
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,840
2023, maybe like, there's a lot of layoffs in DevRel and stuff.

631
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,840
But there's also like, I don't know, like I'm kind of generalizing here because

632
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,840
like, for example, Rizelle Scarlett, who we both know, she's awesome.

633
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,840
And she started off as a junior developer advocate, but she just crushed it.

634
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,840
But like, there was other people that just came in, like no engineering

635
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:23,840
experience and just like, you kind of don't have any credibility.

636
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,840
You know what I mean?

637
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:25,840
Yep.

638
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,840
You know, like I'm a developer advocate.

639
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,840
Oh, what have you built?

640
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,840
This is my first job.

641
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:31,840
Like, yeah.

642
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,840
And, and I'm not saying that to discourage people from getting into the

643
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,840
field.

644
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:37,840
That's not what I mean.

645
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,840
It's just like, I think it's more valuable if you actually have engineering

646
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,840
experience first before doing that.

647
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:51,840
And be Dougie, Brian Douglas, my old CEO from OpenSauce, who is, he headed

648
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,840
developer relations over at GitHub and he's doing that over at the Linux

649
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,840
Foundation now.

650
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,840
And he's basically saying like, kind of the way I was operating, like

651
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,840
before I was an actual DevRel is like, how old school DevRel used to work.

652
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,840
You were like an engineer, and then you give a talk and then you would talk

653
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:12,840
about the product.

654
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,840
And I think it kind of skew.

655
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,840
This is just my observations.

656
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,840
So don't, you know, take it as you will.

657
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,840
But like, I think there was a huge shift where it all just became content at

658
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,840
one point.

659
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,840
And not to say that there weren't super technical people in the field still,

660
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,840
like they're, you know, like, I'm sure you remember, like Microsoft, like

661
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,840
assembled like the Avengers, basically of DevRel.

662
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,840
And like, I think it was like 2016 or something you had like, like just like

663
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,840
a huge amount of talent, like Emily Freeman.

664
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,840
And I can't remember all the people, but like Ashley Willis and like, I don't

665
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,840
know these people personally, but like, like they were like basically like the

666
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,840
elite of that field.

667
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,840
And like they just assembled them and, and then like, I don't know what

668
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,840
happened there, but like, but then like, I feel like, again, just observations,

669
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,840
but I felt like things from a DevRel perspective just became more about

670
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:06,840
talks and content.

671
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:13,840
And I think it's important to come back to having like a, like obviously just

672
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,840
the technical aspect of it too, like, you know, and like literally like, like,

673
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,840
I personally think like I will have failed at my role if I don't understand

674
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,840
the product inside and out after, I don't know how many months, but like,

675
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:27,840
you know what I mean?

676
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:28,840
Yep.

677
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,840
So maybe spicy, maybe not.

678
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:32,840
I don't know.

679
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,840
I think it's a spicy take for people.

680
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:37,840
Okay.

681
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840
It's going to be a spicy take for someone who may have fallen into this category,

682
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:41,840
right?

683
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:47,840
And ended up doing this role unknowingly realizing likely that that

684
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,840
DevRel was sort of going in a direction that I don't think any of us wanted to

685
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:51,840
go.

686
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:52,840
So like, I'll tell you that right now.

687
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,840
Like I definitely saw that happening too.

688
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,840
And like, I started the show for the whole purpose that like my own technical

689
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,840
skills have like literally disappeared.

690
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,840
I went to get into terminal the other day and I was like, holy mother of,

691
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:04,840
I couldn't do anything.

692
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:05,840
I was like, whoa.

693
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,840
Then I was like, I don't even have an SSH key on my computer.

694
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,840
I'm like, what has happened to me?

695
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,840
I think that it happened so quickly, right?

696
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,840
And like I ended up in leadership and, and I think probably the last at least

697
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,840
five to six, you know, years I was in, but I would say it's very much a business

698
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,840
leadership type of roles.

699
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,840
I think, you know, essentially Twitter was probably the last time that was in

700
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,840
2020 where I was in a role that I felt like I was still sort of a developer,

701
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,840
but that role actually pulled me away from that because I was strictly community.

702
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,840
And so I was strictly like what I called taking our negative checkbook and trying

703
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,840
to get us to a zero balance in the developer love space because obviously

704
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:42,840
Devs gated us.

705
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,840
We took away a bunch of stuff.

706
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,840
And so we were re-rolling out the next version of the API.

707
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,840
And so I would say that's probably when my, my tech skills went downhill,

708
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,840
but I'll tell you what, like I fully agree.

709
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,840
I was the absolute best developer advocate that I could have ever possibly

710
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,840
been when I was in the weeds of using the product, building with the products.

711
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,840
And in that role, I was also training customers.

712
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Like I had a very hybrid type of a role because if you understand it,

713
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:09,840
you're building with it.

714
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,840
Then when someone comes in and they're like, I have this really intricate

715
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,840
problem and they've checked everywhere, right?

716
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,840
They're like, I can't find a solution.

717
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,840
And you're like, ding, I know my product so well that I can tell you about this

718
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,840
like hack work around that actually is like pretty great with our product.

719
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,840
So it's good enough for you to want them over and switch, you know,

720
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,840
like you have to have the intel and the knowledge to be able to not sell them,

721
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,840
but like authentically solve their problems.

722
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,840
And it just so happens that it's through the products that you're working with.

723
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,840
Yeah.

724
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,840
I will say about my, I guess, spicy take then is like that was a general

725
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,840
observation, but there were still people doing what I said is like the good thing,

726
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,840
which is they're super technical still and, and, and doing all the other things.

727
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,840
But like, yeah, I just, I don't know.

728
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,840
It was just interesting and like, and I'm, I'm pretty much convinced that

729
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,840
like that's why there was a lot of these layoffs to potentially, you know,

730
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,840
so I think the other, the other piece that goes into that.

731
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,840
I think, and this is like, you know, again, just a hypothesis and I'd love to hear

732
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:12,840
what you think.

733
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,840
And honestly, like, I'd love to have this conversation a year from now after

734
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,840
you've been at your computer a year because here's the other side that I think

735
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,840
I think that at that time, Deverell was so sought after that they were pulling

736
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,840
engineers, they were pulling whoever right to come into these roles.

737
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,840
And like sometimes great if you came from a non traditional engineering,

738
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,840
but you, you were like a teacher and you taught yourself how to code P.

739
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:32,840
J.

740
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,840
Man, you're awesome.

741
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:35,840
Right.

742
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,840
Like you, it was, there was some that was very beautiful.

743
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:39,840
Yeah.

744
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,840
But I think that there were also a lot that where they just pulled an engineer

745
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,840
in and was like, you're going to be a developer advocate or an engineer was

746
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,840
like, I can't get the job, but Deverell is crazy right now.

747
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,840
And they didn't understand business.

748
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,840
That is a huge fundamental sort of drawback.

749
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,840
If, if and only if, right, you are strategically guiding that entire

750
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,840
Deverell function, which at that time it was higher.

751
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,840
The one and only developer advocate have no strategy for them and then

752
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,840
expect a magic to just come out.

753
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,840
Yeah.

754
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaking of PJ Metzia, I haven't, I haven't met him in person, but I know he's

755
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,840
good people and I think he's still, is he still like GitHub education now?

756
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:16,840
Yeah.

757
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:17,840
Yeah.

758
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,840
He moved over there.

759
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,840
His dream job coming from being a teacher.

760
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Yeah.

761
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,840
And I got to give a shout out to my old coworker, Becca too, who's at the

762
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:25,840
Linux foundation now.

763
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:26,840
Love her.

764
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:32,840
She is amazing too because she, she was a literal English teacher and I can't

765
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,840
stress enough how important teaching skills are.

766
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,840
Like if, if, if, like career changers, I think in general it's, it's a good

767
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,840
thing.

768
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:43,840
Yep.

769
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,840
But like if you're a teacher, you're coming in with like hot superpowers,

770
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:47,840
you know what I mean?

771
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,840
Cause like, you know, cause she's able to convey things and she, she writes

772
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:52,840
really well too.

773
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:58,840
Um, and like that's, that's definitely her super power along with building

774
00:37:58,840 --> 00:37:59,840
community.

775
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,840
Like she started virtual coffee, which I've been a part of since pretty

776
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:05,840
much the beginning.

777
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,840
And so like, yeah, she's awesome too.

778
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,840
So just got to, got to give a shameless shout out to, to my old coworker and

779
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,840
friend.

780
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:13,840
I love that very much.

781
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:14,840
Um, I feel the same way.

782
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,840
So absolute shout out to Becca.

783
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,840
She is phenomenal.

784
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,840
I think I get to talk to her on Friday, um, which I'm super, not on the

785
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,840
show, but I realized I need to get her on the show now that you brought

786
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:24,840
that up.

787
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,840
So she'll be on the show in the future cause I'll beg for it to be on the

788
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,840
show.

789
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:28,840
Um, but yeah.

790
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,840
Actually, like when I think about open source and like bringing developers

791
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,840
together, she is like the first person that comes to mind.

792
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,840
And it is, it's really just because of like her absolute love for the

793
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:38,840
developer community.

794
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:39,840
Like she started virtual coffee.

795
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,840
Like if anyone who has been a part of that network, it's a beautiful

796
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:44,840
developer ecosystem and network.

797
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,840
And so I don't know.

798
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,840
She's, um, she's sort of like what I feel like really represents like true

799
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,840
open source, like developer community building.

800
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:53,840
She gets it.

801
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:54,840
Does it.

802
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:55,840
And yeah.

803
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:56,840
Big time, big time.

804
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,840
So lucky for you, Linux foundation.

805
00:38:58,840 --> 00:38:59,840
Yeah, exactly.

806
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:00,840
Lucky for them.

807
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,840
Actually oddly enough, um, not going to chat about it too much, but I had a

808
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:05,840
client opportunity yesterday.

809
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:06,840
That's an open source project.

810
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,840
Um, that actually like has a budget and I was like, Holy crap, can I get an

811
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,840
open source client that has a budget that I can actually work with.

812
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,840
So when you were mentioning earlier about if I could just work on open

813
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,840
source, like that would be my life.

814
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,840
And I was like, huh.

815
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,840
Like that's awesome.

816
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:21,840
If that works out.

817
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:22,840
I know, right.

818
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:23,840
I think it would be awesome.

819
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,840
Honestly, I'd love to bring Becca in a little bit.

820
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:26,840
It's a Linux foundation project.

821
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,840
So I mean, I feel like there's a little now, maybe there's some love to be

822
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,840
shared, but, um, yeah, I think open sources is really, really quite a

823
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:34,840
very beautiful thing.

824
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,840
Um, honestly, I don't really know many developers that don't love open source.

825
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:40,840
Yeah.

826
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,840
Well, the thing is like, like I started off in closed source.

827
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,840
Like I was, I, I, most of my career has actually been in the dot net

828
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,840
ecosystem, like C sharp ASP.net, ASP.net NBC.

829
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:58,840
From like 2000 to like 2016 mid 2016.

830
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,840
That was just all dot net and stuff.

831
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,840
And, um, open source literally transformed my career for the better.

832
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,840
I was working at a dot net shop.

833
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,840
Um, we were using angular one dot four dot three at the time.

834
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,840
I think this is pre angular type script.

835
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:16,840
Yep.

836
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,840
And for context, like little history here, react came out of the

837
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:22,840
year.

838
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:23,840
React came out in 2013.

839
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,840
This is 2016.

840
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,840
I was interested in working with react.

841
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,840
We weren't going to use it at work.

842
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,840
So I started contributing to a couple of projects.

843
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,840
Well, one, I wanted to get in.

844
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,840
I was always a fan of JavaScript.

845
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,840
So, uh, I've been using TypeScript pretty early since 2016.

846
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,840
Um, cause for more history, but TypeScript's been around since 2012.

847
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,840
Um, so,

848
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,840
Could you and your dev history?

849
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:50,840
Yeah.

850
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,840
I mean, I was like, people know what encyclopedia Britannicus.

851
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,840
Does anybody in the stream know that?

852
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,840
Uh, maybe not, maybe not.

853
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,840
But, uh, but like, I was just like, I was always a fan of JavaScript.

854
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,840
And I was like, react looks cool.

855
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,840
And I wanted to get into no jet because I wanted to get an open source.

856
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,840
And all these things were open source.

857
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,840
And at the time.

858
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,840
Dot net wasn't like, you know, it just, it just wasn't a thing.

859
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,840
And no, it wasn't to their credit though.

860
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,840
Like dot net, uh, is open source now.

861
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,840
And like, like people like Scott Hanselman or like definitely spreading the good

862
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,840
word about that. But at the time it's like, it just wasn't an option for me.

863
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,840
So like, I kind of went full tilt on that.

864
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:37,840
And I started contributing to this react boilerplate project, which, uh, is essentially like, we have

865
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,840
frameworks today, but before frameworks, we had boilerplate projects.

866
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,840
So I ended up contributing to one that Corey house, who's a pretty well known react

867
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,840
consultant, uh, created called react slingshot.

868
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:55,840
And then eventually I became a maintainer and this led to landing a role at a fintech

869
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,840
company where I was doing type script and react in 2016.

870
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:05,840
And, and like the whole trajectory of my career changed after contributing to open

871
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,840
source, um, for the better.

872
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,840
Uh, got, got paid more.

873
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,840
Uh, I got to meet people I never would have interacted with before.

874
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:16,840
Like, so lots of pluses.

875
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,840
Like there are some downsides to open source, like, like funding and like

876
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,840
sometimes there's just bad actors, but like overall, like open source for me has been amazing.

877
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,840
So I agree.

878
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,840
I think yeah, definitely bad actors.

879
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,840
Like that's a whole conversation over in the WordPress community right now, huh?

880
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,840
Like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, uh, seeing that come to light, right?

881
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:38,840
But I do agree.

882
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,840
I think that, you know, at the end of the day, like, I think that developer relations

883
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,840
or developer advocacy is a thing and has become a thing, um, so predominantly because we

884
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,840
really do coming back to it, developers just want to hang out with each other.

885
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,840
And so I think like when we can sort of sit elbow to elbow talking about, you know, technology

886
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,840
and what someone is building, I think it's, that's where sort of that fire and passion

887
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:00,840
comes in.

888
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,840
So when you think about open source, right, it's like the epitome of, of dev rel.

889
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:04,840
That's what open source is.

890
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,840
Is like, if you can take the techniques and, and sort of tactics of open source, that's

891
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:10,840
your, that is dev rel.

892
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,840
It's like getting involved in a community, right?

893
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,840
Giving back to that community, helping other developers, contributing to a beautiful project

894
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,840
or product, right?

895
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,840
Um, so I think it's, uh, yeah, I don't know, they go hand in hand.

896
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:23,840
Okay.

897
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,840
So, um, I try to, I try to like end these at 30 minutes, but good grief doesn't happen.

898
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,840
And the conversations are so good.

899
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:30,840
So I'm like, sorry.

900
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:31,840
End it.

901
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,840
No, no, no, this is great.

902
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,840
I, are you good until the hour mark?

903
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:36,840
Yeah.

904
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:37,840
Yeah, I'm good to the hour.

905
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,840
I have a stand up at in 16 minutes.

906
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:40,840
So I am good.

907
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:41,840
Perfect.

908
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:42,840
Okay.

909
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,840
Well, then we can kind of dive over into, you've shared a lot of like things that you enjoy,

910
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:46,840
a lot of like your career.

911
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,840
I didn't ask you, what is your developer education?

912
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,840
If you have any specific?

913
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:51,840
Yeah.

914
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:52,840
So, uh, I did go to university.

915
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:59,840
I did study computer science, but, um, to, to be fair, I did not apply myself as much as

916
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:00,840
I should have.

917
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,840
Uh, so I went, I went to school in the Maritimes of Canada.

918
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:11,840
Uh, it's great out there, but, um, I ended up playing rugby down there and like, I didn't

919
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,840
know they had a team when I went there.

920
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:14,840
That's not why I joined there.

921
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:21,840
I, I just, I decided to go to that university because my cousin from Ottawa had done a computer

922
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,840
science co-op program there.

923
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:24,840
So she recommended it.

924
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,840
And I don't know about you, but like, I had friends growing up in high school where they,

925
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,840
they knew like, I'm going to be a doctor.

926
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:31,840
I'm going to be a whatever.

927
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,840
I'm like, I don't even know what I had for lunch.

928
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,840
You know, like, let me check what's in my tooth.

929
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,840
You know, like, uh, you know, so like, I, I went to university to study computer science

930
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,840
just cause like, uh, you know, I did well at math and stuff.

931
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,840
So I was like, uh, and I did like, like, you know, I started doing HTML, JavaScript and

932
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:56,840
CSS in like the early nineties with like, uh, internet super, uh, you know, internet

933
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:02,840
providers used to have like space you could actually put on their own homepage on like

934
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,840
your local internet provider.

935
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,840
And then there's like stuff like geo cities and stuff.

936
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,840
So like that got me interested in things.

937
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:17,840
I went to university, but like once I got there to be fair, like I basically focused more on rugby.

938
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,840
I mean, don't get me wrong.

939
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,840
I still graduated, but like also it's a little different in Canada.

940
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,840
Like I had university does not cost as much as the States.

941
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,840
Like I think at the, I think at the time it was $5,000 Canadian a year.

942
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,840
So, man, that's amazing.

943
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:40,840
And, and I left with no debt because my, my parents set up a education fund.

944
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,840
Like you can, I don't know what they call them in the States, but you can basically put money

945
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,840
aside to pay for school.

946
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,840
And then I also did a co-op program.

947
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,840
So I basically left with no debt, which is definitely, definitely different than the States.

948
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:59,840
I know, but, but anyways, like, yeah, the thing I'll say though is like, like, I love playing rugby there.

949
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,840
Like I was playing first division university traveling all over the provinces.

950
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:10,840
And the one thing I learned, like I did still learn some fundamentals of computer science, obviously,

951
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,840
even though I did fail, I did fail data structures a couple of times.

952
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,840
But the main takeaway I had is like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,

953
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,840
I do think it was still good.

954
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,840
Like even years later, I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember that thing from school now.

955
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:32,840
And now it makes sense because like I was, I was less concerned about learning in university,

956
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,840
which sounds kind of funny.

957
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,840
As soon as I left university, I was always just trying to soak up stuff, which is kind of funny.

958
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,840
It's like, like if I go on the beach now and I'm like with friends or like my buddy Scott will be like,

959
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,840
are you reading one of those nerd books?

960
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,840
Like he's like this salesperson, a guy I played rugby with. So he just told fun at me all the time.

961
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,840
But it's like, you know, I'm lying on the beach reading a book about rust or something.

962
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,840
And he's like, okay, whatever, man.

963
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:09,840
But, but anyways, what I would say though about the education aspect is one thing that I learned is like your network is super important.

964
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,840
So like for people who maybe have not played a lot of organized sports,

965
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,840
I got to university. I literally knew nobody.

966
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,840
I went to a rugby practice. I immediately knew 70 people and then we had a women's team.

967
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,840
So I met all of them as well. So that's like another 70 people.

968
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,840
So all of a sudden I had this immediate community.

969
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,840
We hung out all the time together everybody.

970
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,840
And even years later now, like I go to a reunion there.

971
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,840
It's like every five years.

972
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:45,840
And there are literally people from the literal first team that was in 1969.

973
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,840
And so like we're talking like 80 year old people or whatever, all the way up to like the most recent team.

974
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:57,840
And that is an entire network of people that like have your back typically.

975
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:58,840
And like even that's amazing.

976
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,840
Even playing even playing club rugby here like in Montreal, I played for the Montreal Irish.

977
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:09,840
The way we set up things when new people joined the team was like, like if somebody came from out of town.

978
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,840
Oh yeah, Johnny just came from England. Somebody get him a job.

979
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,840
Like that that was like, you know, just, just like hook him up.

980
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:24,840
Like sometimes it didn't work out, but like the goal was always like we've got some new players, somebody hook them up, you know.

981
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:30,840
And that's how I got my first job in tech actually is amazing.

982
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:36,840
I was, I was working, I finished university, wasn't landing a job, took me like a year.

983
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,840
I was doing internet technical support.

984
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:49,840
I was doing administrative work and then I was at practice one day and I'm forever grateful for my friend and teammate Bob Mögge.

985
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:57,840
He, we were typically, I'm going talking a lot of rugby, I know, but basically we'd practice twice a week at club.

986
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:06,840
And then we'd go for like beers and like a meal after and he was just asking me after practice one night, like, are you still looking for work?

987
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:17,840
And basically he literally gave me a visual basic six CD ROM and said like, if you want to, like I'm looking for a junior dev.

988
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,840
If you want to come work with me, take this CD ROM, do the tutorials over the weekend and come in on Monday.

989
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:34,840
I might be skewing that story a little bit, but like essentially I had beers with my boss, future boss, whose head was on my butt every game of a rugby match.

990
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:40,840
If people want to know about rugby, I used to play hooker, which is like the person right in the middle.

991
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,840
And you're called a hooker because you literally use your leg to hook the ball back.

992
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:54,840
And then there's, then there's like another, there's two people, there's three people in the front, two in the middle and the two people in the middle are called second row because it's the second row.

993
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,840
So my boss's head was always on my like left or right butt cheek every weekend.

994
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:00,840
I found kind of funny.

995
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,840
So anyways, I'm sorry to say that network is important.

996
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:06,840
Yeah.

997
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,840
Well, bringing back the friends references.

998
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:17,840
That's the only way that I know anything about rugby. So thank you for the insights into rugby because now I know roller derby also super cool.

999
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,840
Yeah, something out of the world.

1000
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,840
Yeah, I would love to do that.

1001
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,840
Like Roxy can like old women do that now.

1002
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,840
Like my roller blades are literally right there and I'm like obsessed with rollerblading, but I have never done it.

1003
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:30,840
Nick was a hooker.

1004
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:31,840
Yeah, exactly.

1005
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:41,840
Exactly. Somebody's going to read that out of context on LinkedIn and I'm going to get flagged. But yeah, it's, it was fun though.

1006
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:42,840
Okay.

1007
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:48,840
One last question selfishly because I want to hear about it.

1008
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,840
Nick was a hooker when he played rugby.

1009
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,840
Nick also does some other cool sports stuff.

1010
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,840
So what other types of sports and things do you have?

1011
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:04,840
I heard some some rumors and some things in your backyard that I think the listeners hear about.

1012
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:13,840
Yeah. So aside from rugby and like I work out in my gym and I snowboard a bit in the winter, but I build an ice rink in my backyard.

1013
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,840
So for context of people are just joining.

1014
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,840
I'm in Montreal, Canada.

1015
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,840
So similar weather to anywhere East Coast in the States.

1016
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,840
And one of my daughters plays a sport called ring it.

1017
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,840
It's more Canadian than American.

1018
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,840
But basically this sport came about when women weren't allowed to play hockey.

1019
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:45,840
So ring it is essentially think of a hockey stick with the blade cut off and instead of a puck, you're basically skewering like a round ring that looks like a uncooked bagel.

1020
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,840
Oh, nice. Okay, got it.

1021
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:48,840
I got the vision.

1022
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:53,840
Anyways, yeah. So anyway, she started playing and this was during this is when the pandemic started lockdown and all that.

1023
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:54,840
Yep.

1024
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,840
And like just something for her to do.

1025
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,840
So I spoke to one of the guys I played rugby with from Australia.

1026
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,840
So an Australian showed a Canadian how to build an ice rink.

1027
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,840
That's amazing.

1028
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,840
But basically I built one in my backyard.

1029
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,840
It was 16 feet by 24 feet.

1030
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,840
And it's not as complicated as it sounds like I'm, I will admit I am not that handy.

1031
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,840
So basically I bought deck boards and didn't really cut them.

1032
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,840
So I just screwed them together.

1033
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,840
And then you just reinforce it with some screws and a bit of rebar.

1034
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:31,840
It's not as complicated as it sounds.

1035
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,840
And then the magic pieces you buy a liner that you put in and then you just fill it up with water.

1036
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:42,840
And I did this the first year and then I posted them on socials and like people are like, oh, that's cool.

1037
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:43,840
That's cool.

1038
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:49,840
And then like literally since the first time every year when it gets close to the time of when I built that first one.

1039
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,840
We will say like, oh, are you building the rink this year?

1040
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,840
Like people get excited about it.

1041
00:52:53,840 --> 00:53:00,840
And this year we were kind of like, okay, I think we're done with it because like she's just busier with other stuff too.

1042
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,840
But just built a scaled down version.

1043
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,840
So it's only 12 by 10 now, but it's just a practice shooting.

1044
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:15,840
So there's photos on my socials about it, but it looks really nice in the dark because I have lights hanging on the clothesline.

1045
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:21,840
So it actually looks really nice, but it's not as complicated as people might think it is to make it.

1046
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:26,840
I love that screw people for saying that women can't play hockey.

1047
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,840
I used to play hockey all the time got hit in the mouth by a puck though.

1048
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:30,840
That was not fun.

1049
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:36,840
My mom flipped because like if anyone has ever like if you've ever been hitting the mouth like it bleeds so much.

1050
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,840
So when by the time I got home, it was like, I was like, coked coated in blood.

1051
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:42,840
Lots of fear.

1052
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:47,840
I don't think I've ever had something hit me in the face, but I've definitely been punched in the face.

1053
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:48,840
Right.

1054
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,840
And it's usually like, yeah, no, that didn't really feel great.

1055
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,840
Yeah, no, doesn't feel great.

1056
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:54,840
Lots of blood.

1057
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:55,840
Yeah.

1058
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:56,840
Yeah.

1059
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,840
There's a lot of blood in your head, even cutting yourself shaving, but anyways.

1060
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,840
Yeah, that is so true too.

1061
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,840
Okay, well, we have like five minutes left.

1062
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,840
I also like to ask people how they get unstuck.

1063
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:15,840
So if you want to elaborate that in like two minutes and then would love to talk about how folks can find you online and then we'll let you get to it.

1064
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:16,840
Cool.

1065
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:17,840
Cool.

1066
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,840
The only thing I'll say about women's hockey is women can definitely play hockey.

1067
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:22,840
Yes, they can.

1068
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:31,840
In university, I wrestled in the off season of rugby to stay in shape and our coach.

1069
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:32,840
We saw the court.

1070
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:33,840
Yeah.

1071
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:34,840
Yeah.

1072
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:35,840
That really is me.

1073
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:36,840
Somebody asked me if that was me.

1074
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,840
It really is me.

1075
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,840
But the coach coordinated a practice with the women's field hockey team.

1076
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,840
And for context, even though I'm Canadian, I'm a terrible skater.

1077
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:48,840
I've never played hockey.

1078
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,840
So I put on all the equipment wrong.

1079
00:54:51,840 --> 00:55:02,840
I get on the ice and Tina Cormier, who is like triple a maritime champion in field hockey just slides right into me and like hip checks me and knocks me on the ground.

1080
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:12,840
So I can, I can definitely confirm that women can play and a lot of Canadian women's national champions came from my university too.

1081
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,840
So anyway, shout out to women in hockey.

1082
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,840
But the good stuff.

1083
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:18,840
Yeah.

1084
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:20,840
So what we were saying, what was the question again?

1085
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,840
How do you get unstuck?

1086
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,840
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1087
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,840
I'm going to say obvious stuff, but like people do not do these things still.

1088
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,840
Things aren't working, working out, go for a walk, literally change a scenery.

1089
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,840
Like I'm at my desk now.

1090
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,840
I never eat my lunch at my desk as well.

1091
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:39,840
I used to do this all the time.

1092
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:46,840
And when I used to work in an office, I'd be like, gotta eat my lunch so I can get back to work, you know, and like it's totally wrong approach.

1093
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,840
You need a change of scenery.

1094
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:56,840
If not so much in the winter, but like in the summer and fall and spring, I'll literally go sit on my deck outside at lunch and eat lunch there.

1095
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,840
Even if it's like 10 minutes outside or whatever.

1096
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:00,840
Yep.

1097
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:09,840
But literally stepping away and sometimes, and I didn't do this when I was younger in my career, but like sometimes you just got to tap out and say it's not working today.

1098
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:14,840
Like just regroup tomorrow and your brain is like super awesome.

1099
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,840
Like you go to bed and your brain is still processing things.

1100
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:25,840
And it's like, I guarantee you, you're going to wake up the next morning and you're either going to be unstuck or maybe like the whole thing.

1101
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:31,840
It just, you know, it's, there's a revelation in the morning and like, I really do think stepping away.

1102
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:36,840
That said, like obviously, if something critical is happening at work, you can't really do that.

1103
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:41,840
But like, if it's not something like that, definitely just step away.

1104
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,840
Exercise for me has always just, it just clears my head.

1105
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,840
Like squats are like my favorite exercise.

1106
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:54,840
And it's like, I literally feel like the weight coming off my shoulder.

1107
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,840
So, that's what I would say.

1108
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,840
And I know it's general advice, but I guarantee you a lot of people still don't do that.

1109
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:11,840
So yeah, I will say I'm really guilty of not doing that too, even though I do actually know that it is better for me to get away from my desk and go outside or like go, go work out.

1110
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:18,840
I'm not happy actually, when happy or when I work out yet, I still don't prioritize it as a primary thing.

1111
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:25,840
Okay, so you have awesome live stream that you do as well, very fun, casual, hanging with devs.

1112
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,840
You're also across the internet.

1113
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,840
So where can folks find you if they want to come hang out with you?

1114
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:31,840
Yeah, for sure.

1115
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,840
No, thanks. Thanks for letting me plug that.

1116
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:46,840
Easiest way is just to go to literally nicky t dot online and all my socials are there, including my blog and also the stream schedule, but like YouTube,

1117
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,840
Instagram, whatever, it's all there.

1118
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,840
So that's the best way to find me.

1119
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,840
And I'm literally Nikki T online everywhere.

1120
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:06,840
And some people have asked me where that name came from and it's because when I played rugby, in sports, people usually call you by your last name like Taylor, Creasel.

1121
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,840
But at one point people started calling me Nikki T.

1122
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:16,840
And it's a terrible handle to be honest, because like clearly I'm online if I'm on the internet, but I just never changed it.

1123
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:17,840
So it's Nikki.

1124
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:23,840
That's why Nikki T online exists, but it made it made for fun when I'm offline.

1125
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:30,840
So if I say something that's like after hours, people call me Nikki T offline.

1126
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,840
I love it.

1127
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:33,840
I love it.

1128
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,840
I have no cool, cool story for mine at all.

1129
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,840
I was like, man, made sense.

1130
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:38,840
That was it.

1131
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:39,840
That's my user.

1132
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:40,840
Yeah.

1133
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:41,840
Yeah.

1134
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:42,840
Yeah.

1135
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:43,840
Okay.

1136
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:44,840
I love that.

1137
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:45,840
Well, go check out Nick's live stream.

1138
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:46,840
It is awesome.

1139
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:48,840
It's been fabulous having you on great conversation this morning per usual.

1140
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,840
And I hope you have a fabulous rest of your day along with everyone else.

1141
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:53,840
Cool.

1142
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:54,840
Cool.

1143
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:55,840
Thanks for hanging everybody.

1144
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:19,840
Thanks for watching.