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Good morning, everyone.

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I am cold over here in Texas, which rarely happens.

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My lovely guest, Erin, happens to also be geographically near me.

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Erin, I would love for you to introduce yourself.

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And are you cold as well?

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Because it's cold in Texas.

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It is cold in Texas.

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I am not cold right now.

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It's actually quite nice here in the studio where I'm sitting.

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Yeah, I'm Erin Francis.

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I am, oh goodness, software developer, developer educator, dad to two sets of twins, all sorts

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of things.

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And we can go into any of those that you want.

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But I'm happy to be here.

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So thanks for having me.

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Yeah, of course.

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We were actually just talking about twins and children before we went live.

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So we might come back around to that conversation because there's a lot of relatability with

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that, I think.

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So you shared quite a few different things that you do, developer, educator, variety of

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different things.

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So what is your day to day, your role as it will be today?

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Today?

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So every day is almost different.

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So I am the co-founder of a company with my friends, Steve.

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So me and Steve started a company in, goodness, almost a year ago.

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It was like April of last year.

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So we're coming up on, thanks, we're coming up on the one year anniversary.

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And what Steve and I do, so the company is called TriHard Studios.

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And so it's basically super focused on video, specifically for developers.

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So so far we have launched two in-depth video courses.

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One is high performance SQLite and the other is mastering Postgres.

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So my background is pretty heavy into databases, a company I used to work at.

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I did a course on my SQL.

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And so I feel like I've gotten a look at the big three now.

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So day to day, it just kind of depends on like what we're doing.

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So right now, like right now, this morning and super late last night, I was working on

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a new open source library.

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So I am a part of the Larivell community, which is a PHP framework.

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And there's a conference coming up sooner than I would like.

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I think it's like February 2nd or 3rd or something, Groundhog Day.

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And I'm giving a talk.

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How exciting!

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That's so wonderful.

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However, however, Tessa, I submitted this talk with like, hey, I'd love to come give

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a talk on this new library that I'm writing thinking this would be a good forcing function

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if I get accepted to this conference.

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I'll actually like finish this library.

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It was, you know, 50% done.

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Turns out it was like 10% done, but I thought it was 50% done.

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And so they said, sure, come, you know, unveil this new and exciting thing.

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And I was like, haza!

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And now hoisted by my own petard, I'm here writing this library and just like going through

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cycles of this is so stupid.

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This is so genius, just like over and over and over.

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So this past, you know, couple of weeks and today and the next few weeks, very, very focused

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on writing this library and getting it to a point that I think I can release probably

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an alpha on stage.

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If not, just do a great demo.

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Like, demo is the bar, alphas would be like a stretch goal.

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So that's kind of where I'm at right now.

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I guess like, how does that, why does that make sense for an education company?

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I don't know if it super does, but like directionally, I think, you know, I like to teach, but I

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also like to make things like, and I think in terms of like running our own company,

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I am kind of the top of the funnel, right?

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So I am the marketing arm of the company and so having stuff like this out in the world

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really increases my odds of like people stumbling upon us and then seeing, oh, this guy is,

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you know, making these great libraries and also they have these courses and also there's

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this YouTube channel and there's this email news list.

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And so just trying to get more, I guess, little, you know, marketing assets out in the world.

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So that's a long answer of what I'm doing today.

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I love that so much.

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Honestly, like it's fun to really hear about your work because you get to do a variety

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of different things, right?

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Like as developers, I think one of sort of our roots and at our core, like we really,

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really, really want to help each other because by extension, that means that like we've built

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something and we've accomplished something.

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And I personally think at the end of the day, it's because we want to be like, I built this

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or we built this.

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And so I think it's really fun when we get to take that like developer role and actually

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bring that teaching role into it, which is one of the reasons why I very much love Dev

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Roll and I'm sure that you can relate honestly.

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Yeah, I like the teaching aspect.

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So I did go to college.

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I didn't go to Baylor.

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I was just going to ask.

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I did go to Texas A&M, so just down the road from you.

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So I went to A&M and for some reason, I got two degrees both in accounting.

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So I got my undergrad and my master's in accounting, went on to get my CPA license, worked for

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a year as an accountant and then was like, this is for the birds.

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I'm out of here.

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Never looked back.

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So but when I was when I was at school, I just loved accounting turns out accounting

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in school and accounting in practice are very different things.

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And accounting in school is like, is like business programming.

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It's like, Hey, here's a bunch of stuff.

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Here's a bunch of rules.

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Go figure it out.

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It's like, Ah, that's fun.

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Like, I like that.

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That's a puzzle.

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You know, accounting is not really math in the same way that software is not really math.

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Like knowing some math helps, but you just got to know the rules and play by the rules

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and you can figure out anything.

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In school, I started tutoring accounting because I took this one class that was like sophomore

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level financial accounting friggin loved it, crushed it and everyone else hated it.

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I was like, huh, I could teach this.

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And so I spent the next, you know, three or four years teaching tutoring soft or not software

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tutoring, uh, introduction to financial accounting.

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And it was just so much fun.

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And so I think early on I realized one that I enjoy teaching and maybe more importantly

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that people like, people also enjoy my teaching.

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And so that was like, um, a formative kind of early experience of, you know, that has

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led me to where I am now.

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The subject, the subject matter is different, but I still enjoy teaching, especially teaching

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these complex topics that other people seem to super hate like databases or accounting.

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I love that.

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Okay.

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So you let into question, obviously that was, was coming.

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So I would love to hear how you went from accounting and an accounting role to becoming

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technical and doing what you do today.

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Yeah.

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Um, so everything I've learned about programming has been either through study, self study or

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practice.

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And so I started when I was quite young, probably started messing around with HTML CSS back

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when HTML bitties was the thing, uh, when I was maybe 10, 11, 12, 13, something like

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that.

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Um, and picked up, picked up PHP around that time, which I still stick with today.

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Um, and everything that I have accomplished and learned and done since then has just strictly

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been a result of like following my curiosity, trying to figure something out, wanting to

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see something exist and not knowing how to do it.

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And so just kind of like brute forcing my way through it.

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Um, all of these books back here, those are all programming books.

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And I am, I guess the person that buys and reads programming books.

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Cause anytime I talk about it, everybody's like, ha, ha, nobody does that.

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I'm like, I do that.

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I do that all the time.

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I love it.

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And so everything I've learned has been through that.

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Um, I consider myself, um, I consider myself like a, a working man programmer.

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Like I think that I can solve any problem just by like sitting down and quietly working

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for a very long time on it.

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And so that has, that's served me, that's served me quite well, including this project

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that I'm working on now for Larry Khan EU and a library that I recently wrote that's

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very terminal heavy.

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It's like, I'm not qualified to do any of this stuff by any like external is true by

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any external like, uh, metric.

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I'm not qualified to do any of this stuff.

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The only thing that qualifies me to do it is that I have done it.

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And so now it's like, well, I didn't, you know, the guy that wrote, um, the guy that

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created the database to SQLite, um, has since said that if he knew, uh, at the time that

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you weren't supposed to write your own database, he wouldn't have done it, but he didn't know

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that.

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And so he wrote his own database.

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Turns out it's the most highly used database in the entire world.

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Um, and he just did it because he thought, huh, I need this and I bet I could do it and

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I bet I could figure it out and 25, you know, 30 years later, it's like a universal standard.

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And so that's kind of how I feel, which is like, um, I have an idea.

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I'm just going to like keep poking until I figure it out.

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I may not be the most efficient.

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I may not be like the like most talented, but I have a lot more like grit than I think

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most people do.

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Ooh, I love that.

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I think honestly, grit can far surpass a whole lot of things.

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Um, I attempted to go to college and college is just not for me.

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Um, but I have a lot of grit and so therefore feel like I've been able to make it on that.

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Um, you, you said something really, really, really powerful in there where you said that

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you are not, um, your exact words, essentially, uh, sorry, I don't remember exactly how you

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worded it, but it was, the resonance around it was essentially that you, um, weren't qualified

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per se to do it, but you happen to be the person who did it.

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Um, I think that is incredibly powerful.

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I'd love to maybe just hear a little bit more on that if, if you have anything that you

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want to share there, because I think that very much as relatable as a developer, right?

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We, as we start to dive into these things, like we are constantly filled with imposter

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syndrome because there's no right or wrong way to essentially do anything.

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We can go about every solution that we come to in a variety of different ways.

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And so I think at the end of the day, when you really think about it, are any of us really

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qualified per se to do the things that we're doing as we are navigating these new spaces.

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So I just think that's a very enlightening way to look at it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, um, so coming, coming out of accounting, um, and getting into software development,

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kind of, kind of a tough road to hoe, you know, it's like, how, how am I going to do

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that?

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So, um, it's the same, it's the exact, it's the exact same story.

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I, uh, was working on something just like, you know, nights and weekends when I was at

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the firm, I was working on something and as I was doing it, I was writing about it.

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So I was just writing, writing blogs, if anybody remembers those.

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Um, so I was, I was writing blogs and it was like the most, uh, it was the most niche esoteric

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stuff.

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Like I remember one of them at the time was, um, automating migrations using, uh, the PHP

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framework, Yi on, uh, the cloud hosting platform, Heroku.

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And so that is like, that is the blog post that I wrote was how I automate my Yi migrations

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on Heroku.

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And so I'm writing this like, as I'm learning it, here's what I'm learning.

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Here's how I figured it out.

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Um, not trying, not trying to hold myself out as an expert because I wasn't, which I

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think is a trap that a lot of people fall into is either they think they need to be

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an expert and so they stop themselves from writing or they think they need to be an expert.

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So they write as if they're an expert instead of, um, here, let me recount to you what I've

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learned, which is I think way more important.

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Um, because if you hold yourself out to be an expert, when you're clearly not, um, you're

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going to get found out and it's going to be harmful.

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And if you, um, tell people what you've done, there's no one in the world that can refute

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what you've done.

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If you've done it, right?

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So you can go to someone and say, my life experience has taught me this and they cannot

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say no, it hasn't just can't say that.

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Um, but if you go to somebody, if you go to somebody and you say next JS is the best and

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you're an idiot, it's like, well, I don't think next is the best.

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And it's like, oh, okay.

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Well now you've, you know, you've made this statement that is refutable.

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And so like, so I was writing about what I was learning at the time.

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Yep.

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And this niche esoteric stuff and some company in, you know, as we said, I live in Texas,

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some company in California reached out and was like, Hey, we're writing this big application

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in you.

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You're clearly an expert.

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Can we pay you to work with us?

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I was like, what do you mean?

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I'm clearly an expert.

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And that was the first, that was the first like, um, like, uh, the scales fell off my

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eyes kind of moment of wait, do you, this, this company thinks that I am the expert.

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I don't feel like an expert.

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That's interesting.

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Why do they think I'm an expert?

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Because I'm writing about these things that I'm learning and I'm, I'm putting it out

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onto the internet.

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And so that was, that was when I realized that like, um, accolades accrue fairly or unfairly.

230
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I'm not interested in making that distinction, but accolades accrue to people who are putting

231
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stuff out publicly.

232
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And so that was when I, that was when I realized that like, wait, if accolades accrue to people

233
00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:58,800
who are putting stuff out publicly, what if I put out more stuff publicly?

234
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,720
Then I bet I get more.

235
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,480
And it's, you know, you can, you can look at it from like, um, you can look at it from

236
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,920
a cynical point of view or an oppertunistic point of view.

237
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,800
If you look at it from a cynical point of view, you look at other people writing articles

238
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:20,400
that aren't very good and still get a lot of like speaking gigs, job opportunities,

239
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,320
uh, invites onto podcasts.

240
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,120
And you can look at all that stuff that they're writing and be like, that stuff is crap.

241
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,120
I'm a genius.

242
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,360
That person's an idiot.

243
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,600
Why doesn't anybody care about me?

244
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,680
That's the cynical point of view, which I, you know, I took for some period of time.

245
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:43,560
The opportunistic point of view is, um, oh, that person is an idiot.

246
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,840
Whether you think you should think that or not, a lot of people think that, right?

247
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,360
So you look at it and you're like, wait, that person's an idiot, but they're doing a lot

248
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,320
of, they're doing a lot of like public work and they're getting all of these benefits

249
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,720
that I want.

250
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,800
I think that I'm the smartest man in the world.

251
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,000
Why am I not getting anything?

252
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,000
Wow.

253
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,000
Maybe there's an opportunity here.

254
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,600
If I just start like putting stuff out there in the same way that these people are, maybe

255
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,800
I can get some of those benefits.

256
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,760
And that's, that's just like, you can say it as, as many times as you want.

257
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,000
And people are still going to be like, well, I just, you know, I just can't put myself

258
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,000
out there.

259
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,320
And I'm like, I totally get it.

260
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:22,320
It's terrifying.

261
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,560
People are going to look at your stuff and be like, ah, you're an idiot because they

262
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,160
want the credit that you're getting.

263
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:29,160
Right.

264
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,320
So there's this whole, like, there's this whole, everybody wants everything for themselves

265
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,160
and it's all these defense mechanisms.

266
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:41,560
But if you can brave the fact that people are going to say that you're silly or people

267
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,760
are going to not care, which maybe is even worse.

268
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,920
If you can get over that hurdle, everything you want is on the other side of that.

269
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:57,800
And so, um, you can, you can just look at the world in a very, um, it's not fair, which

270
00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,560
I agree it's not fair.

271
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:00,560
It's not fair.

272
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,680
And therefore I'm mad or it's not fair.

273
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,360
I wonder how I can use that to my advantage.

274
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:12,960
And I think finding the path to the second one is a lot more profitable.

275
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,460
I fully agree.

276
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:15,460
Absolutely fully agree.

277
00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:19,880
Um, I love the story that you related to that, obviously, because you put yourself out there

278
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,440
and you were just sharing your knowledge and that led into an opportunity.

279
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,320
And I think oftentimes that folks don't realize that like it's okay to write about things

280
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,440
that you don't necessarily know about because I will, I'll say the same exact thing.

281
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,480
When I was working at Twitter, um, I was just really, really, really frustrated that we

282
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,840
wouldn't internally change some things for developers when they rolled out V2 of the

283
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:42,840
API.

284
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,680
They, that's when I had been brought in the effort there was like, how do we regain the

285
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,240
trust and love of developers again?

286
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:50,240
Right.

287
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,200
And I'm like, if you want to regain the trust, you need to actually talk to developers.

288
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,400
You need to care about them.

289
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,760
And it's not that they didn't write, but there was just, obviously it's enterprise.

290
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,480
There's a lot, a lot to that.

291
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,760
And we know how all of that works.

292
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560
And so it's just really hard to actually advocate for it.

293
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,640
But at the end of the day, all of that turned into me ranting about, here's what you should

294
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:12,640
be doing.

295
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,080
Here's how you should be talking to your developers.

296
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,880
Here's how I've done it in the past because I just had this angst around it, which led

297
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,320
to like an immense amount of opportunities.

298
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,280
So I think there's always just something that whether you're frustrated, whether you're

299
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,080
learning something new, whether you want to just share things that I think can lead

300
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,600
to many, many opportunities.

301
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:31,680
So I love that.

302
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:38,200
Take grit, put yourself out there, which by the way, Erin gave an amazing presentation

303
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,640
at commit your code, like amazing.

304
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,120
So second speaker that we've had or second guest on the show that we've had that spoke

305
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,120
at commit your code.

306
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:51,080
Actually, third now that I think about it, Tim, Noah and you.

307
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,440
So yeah, so for anyone listening, go find Erin's talk.

308
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,440
It's on the software developers meetup over on YouTube that Danny Thompson has lovely

309
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,200
pulled together with his awesome crew and team.

310
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,200
Okay.

311
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,880
So I want to dive into what are some of the challenges that you're solving.

312
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,600
So you have this awesome studio where you do video production, education, a variety of

313
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,560
different services and in that vein.

314
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,800
When your clients come to you, what are, what are they normally looking for?

315
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,760
Like what are you, what are sort of their challenges and how do you translate those

316
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,040
challenges into the results that, that you create?

317
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:26,040
Yeah.

318
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,480
So it's kind of, it's kind of interesting, you know, when you, as you're well aware,

319
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,120
when you start a business, you don't really, you have an idea of what you're going to do

320
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,920
and then the changes.

321
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:43,600
And so we started, we started the business with an idea that turns out, I don't know

322
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,680
if it was bad, it just didn't work.

323
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,680
Nobody wanted it.

324
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:55,440
And so we started the business with the idea that Steve and I would help developer education

325
00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:01,600
and developer relation teams produce more effective video.

326
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,360
And we thought, this is a great idea.

327
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:04,400
We're really good at it.

328
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,240
We've proven that we're good at it.

329
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,000
Companies really want to be doing video.

330
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,800
They're struggling with it.

331
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,440
We can help.

332
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,120
And so we got in touch with a bunch of companies and they were all like, sure, sure, sure,

333
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:18,120
sure.

334
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,280
But will you make videos for us?

335
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,720
It's like me?

336
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,160
I don't know anything about GraphQL.

337
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,640
Why do you want me to make your videos?

338
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:25,640
I don't care.

339
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,040
Just make our videos.

340
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:36,200
And so it became very evident that people, rather companies did not want help leveling

341
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,480
up their video creation.

342
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,520
They wanted to outsource video creation.

343
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:48,560
And so that immediately, that was a wrench in the works because it was like, I cannot

344
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,960
be and don't want to be the face of a bunch of different companies.

345
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,000
Because then my credibility is spread then.

346
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:03,920
Because if I'm doing GraphQL one day and Kafka the next, and it's like, there's no way

347
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:10,920
I could do high quality education to the level that I want to for that many different companies,

348
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,920
let alone that many different technologies, which I don't know.

349
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:20,680
And so, yeah, I'm sure it became clear that like what we were offering, people weren't

350
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,040
interested in.

351
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:28,640
And so since then, we've pivoted more to a lot of in-house work.

352
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:36,240
And so the two courses that we've done have been fully our deal, but we have partnered

353
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,640
with two great companies to like be a part of those courses.

354
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:47,720
So for SQLite, we partnered with Terso and for Postgres, we partnered with Zeta XATA.

355
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:53,520
And so there's still like a client aspect of, hey, we're going to make this, you know,

356
00:21:53,520 --> 00:22:00,200
15 hour, you know, 100 video course about Postgres, you're a Postgres company.

357
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,520
You know, you know, can we talk about you and put your name on some stuff and have a

358
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,520
little, you know, business exchange here, a little capitalism.

359
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,000
And it's that part worked out great.

360
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:15,920
And so we still get, we still get like creative control and I still get to do the curriculum

361
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,040
and all the education and speak about things that I actually know about.

362
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,800
And the company still gets the benefit of being associated with people that really want

363
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,800
to learn XYZ and want to learn it from what we think is a really high quality source.

364
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:36,320
And so that's kind of the shape of the business now and the permutations to get there.

365
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:44,040
And it sounds like, it sounds like such a straight line, but it has just been up, down,

366
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,040
left and right.

367
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,160
And like, I feel like we're finally finding our way out.

368
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,080
But you know, when you tell it in a nice, neat story, it's like, oh, they, you know,

369
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:53,720
had a hypothesis and tested it and it failed.

370
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,720
And now they're a success.

371
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,160
It's like, well, kind of was a disaster.

372
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,960
I mean, it wasn't, but it was, it was an emotional disaster to get there because it was like,

373
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,960
we're going to do it.

374
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:04,960
And everybody's like, no, you're not.

375
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,760
And they're like, shoot, well, what are we going to do then?

376
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:13,600
And so finding our way through has been, has been trying, but that is, you know, what

377
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:14,600
we do.

378
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,680
And now we're, I think we're, we're out and the shape of the business is currently we

379
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,520
produce in-house courses and sell them to consumers.

380
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,240
So that's, that's where we're at now.

381
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,600
I love that.

382
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,440
My facial expressions are probably quite expressive as you were saying that because, and we sort

383
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:38,320
of talked about this on the pre-show too, is like, it is so hard to start a business,

384
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,160
especially when you go into it.

385
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:42,360
Hard to start a business period.

386
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,880
And I love what you said about, oh, they had a hypothesis and they tested and they validated

387
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:46,880
and it didn't work.

388
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,160
And then they pivoted, right?

389
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,240
Like that story feels beautiful, but the story that's like on my side of the world is I'm

390
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,640
like, yeah, that happened six times over 10 months because I just wanted it to be perfect.

391
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,000
And it's like, it is, it is not what we expect it to be.

392
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,480
And I think going through all of that is hard, especially when you and I, at least I'm speaking

393
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,320
for you as I say this, like we just want help developers, right?

394
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,880
We want developers to succeed and like how do we get to play that role where we get to

395
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,120
have our business, have that freedom, make the money that we need for our family, not

396
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:20,120
looking to be rich.

397
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:24,880
I just want to enjoy my day to day job and serve developers.

398
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,840
So it's, yeah, that emotional roller coaster is quite difficult.

399
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,960
And I am on it too.

400
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:31,960
Yes.

401
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,480
And I'll hit you at the yes and yes, I want to help people, but boy, do I have a big old

402
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,280
family that needs to eat food.

403
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,520
And so like, I'm the sole, I'm the sole breadwinner.

404
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:49,760
And so, you know, starting a company when you've got four kids and a wife that works

405
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:55,120
super hard, but doesn't bring in any income, and you have help for the kids.

406
00:24:55,120 --> 00:25:00,640
And so you've got, you know, myself included seven mouths to feed four kids and three adults.

407
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,320
It's like, oh crap, we got to make some money.

408
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,760
And so finding out that your adorable little hypothesis is not going to work is not as

409
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,240
fun when it's like, oh crap.

410
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,240
All right.

411
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,320
Well, the kids don't know about the hypothesis.

412
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,680
They don't care about the hypothesis.

413
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,360
They want pouches of yogurt.

414
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:24,480
And so that, that part has been, that part has like added to the, the amplitude of the

415
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,680
oscillations between I'm a genius and I'm an idiot.

416
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,920
It's cause it's like, it just everything is amped up to like two or three times.

417
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:33,920
It really is.

418
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,800
And so there's a, there's a tweet that I think that you would really love.

419
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,400
Essentially I don't remember exactly how it was worded, but they said something about

420
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,960
like starting your own business or like owning a business.

421
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,800
If this is what you want is like one day feeling like king of the world and the next day feeling

422
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,480
like a giant pile of crap.

423
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:50,800
And I'm like, that's it.

424
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:51,800
That's it.

425
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:52,800
Yes.

426
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,880
I would, I would take day to day.

427
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,400
I'm hour to hour, man.

428
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,360
It's, it is, the feedback is tight.

429
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,640
One hour I'm a genius and one hour I'm a failure.

430
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,880
And so, yeah, it takes a little bit, takes a little bit of fortitude for sure.

431
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,280
It does sort of takes the wind out of your sales a little when you do, like when you

432
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,720
have those wins, but then you have those, those losses that are even harder.

433
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,760
And so it's harder to see those wins some days.

434
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,260
Yes.

435
00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:21,480
Yogurt pouches are a must.

436
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,480
Yes.

437
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,480
I agree, Jason.

438
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,840
The kids must have the yogurt pouches.

439
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,280
My husband and I were actually just talking about that.

440
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,760
Like I'm, I'm still working towards the other end of finding it.

441
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,480
And I think I've found it now, but it's like, as you know, you have to, it takes time once

442
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,880
you think that you're ready to sort of shift and hypothesize.

443
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,720
It takes calls and months of like the sales process and whatever else to really get that

444
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,720
feedback.

445
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,280
So I'm hoping we can still keep buying yogurt pouches for a little bit longer.

446
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,880
I'll be looking for a job myself.

447
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:50,880
So yeah.

448
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,120
Well, good luck to us both.

449
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,640
I know, I know, right?

450
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:55,640
Okay.

451
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:56,640
Coming back to the techie stuff.

452
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,640
Um, PHP.

453
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,640
Why PHP?

454
00:26:58,640 --> 00:26:59,640
Love it.

455
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:00,640
Gotta have it.

456
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,640
Um, love it.

457
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,640
Love that.

458
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:03,640
Love it.

459
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,640
Gotta have it.

460
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:12,240
As a, as a working man developer, PHP meets my needs.

461
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:19,000
And, um, so I think there's a lot of discourse.

462
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,880
Boy, is there a lot of discourse.

463
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:31,400
Um, and I try to tune most of it out because to the extent, um, to, to the extent that anyone

464
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:38,040
thinks I am an influencer, I wish they would think of me as, um, an educator or as somebody

465
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,680
who does things and also happens to have influence.

466
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:50,120
And so my goal in life is to not ever like opine on the day to day of what's going on

467
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:51,520
in technology.

468
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,880
I don't care.

469
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:59,400
I do not care at all about what is going on day to day in technology.

470
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:05,080
Some of it is interesting in the same way that like, uh, watching football is interesting.

471
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,520
It's like, Oh neat.

472
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:07,800
The boys are doing it again.

473
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:08,800
All right.

474
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,600
Well, let's turn it off and get back to work.

475
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,120
That's kind of how I feel when people argue about like, uh, type scripts.

476
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:16,600
I'm like, that's awesome.

477
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,120
I don't freaking care.

478
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:19,600
One single little bit.

479
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:25,680
So I think my, um, and if people care, I don't care if people care.

480
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:26,680
That's wonderful.

481
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:27,680
Congratulations.

482
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:28,680
That's fantastic.

483
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,680
I don't care about different things.

484
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,680
It's not a moral judgment.

485
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,440
It's just a reality that I don't care about that because what I do care about is, um,

486
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,200
one step beyond that, which is, uh, making things.

487
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:52,000
And so, um, I have found a nice, like, uh, a nice workflow, a nice set of tools that

488
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,120
allows me to make things that I think are high quality.

489
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,560
I want the things that I make to be really, um, high quality.

490
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,240
I want to put my name on it.

491
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,200
I want to, um, metaphorically show it to my kids and say, dad made this, right?

492
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,400
Like, I want to be proud of something.

493
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,120
And I have found a tool set that allows me to get there very quickly.

494
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:23,600
Um, and so why, why would I, um, why would I spend a bunch of time exploring all these

495
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,800
new technologies when I have a tool set that gets me to where I want to go very, very quickly

496
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,240
and subjectively?

497
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,920
I think it is one of the best tool sets, if not the best tool set.

498
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:43,440
I have happened to fall into, um, I've happened by pure chance to fall into a community and

499
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:52,560
a tool set that I think is objectively, I think very, very good and very, very productive.

500
00:29:52,560 --> 00:30:00,600
And so I have not found a reason to explore outside into like rest or something.

501
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:01,680
What am I going to do with rest?

502
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,200
I have no idea.

503
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:12,440
Um, now when I do something that is like, uh, outside the bounds, perhaps of, of Larival,

504
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,280
then I do enjoy learning and exploring and like poking around.

505
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:23,080
But the end goal, the end goal for me is always to produce an artifact that goes out to the

506
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,080
world.

507
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,160
I enjoy learning for the sake of learning.

508
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,800
At this stage in my life, the things that I want to learn about are not other technologies

509
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,960
that I'm probably not going to use.

510
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:43,520
And so I would prefer to spend my, um, to spend my learning, uh, time budget getting

511
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:49,800
better at my tool set that I already have or reading books about how to write books

512
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,320
because I want to write a book one day.

513
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,720
And I just don't, I don't want to pick up next JS 26.

514
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,600
Like I'm happy.

515
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,800
And so that's a big like, um, that's a big personality trait of mine.

516
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:07,000
There's, there's two, um, supposedly two types of people that are maximizers and they're

517
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,920
satisficers and a maximizer is like an economics thing.

518
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:18,920
A maximizer is always on the hunt, um, on the hunt for something a little bit better.

519
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,080
So there you go.

520
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,440
So these are the types of people that go to a restaurant and they try, you know, repeatedly

521
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,140
a local and place and they try everything on the menu because they want to find the

522
00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:32,160
best dish there.

523
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,320
That's a maximizer.

524
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,320
Nothing wrong with it.

525
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,520
On the other hand, the satisficers go to a restaurant.

526
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:44,000
They may try one or two or three dishes until they surpass a certain bar that says I am

527
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,520
satisfied.

528
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:51,360
And when they find the bar that says I am satisfied, they order that forever.

529
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,400
And that's what I do.

530
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,400
That's me.

531
00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:00,680
Like, I find something, I find something that is good enough and that, that can include

532
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,840
exploring a bunch of different options until something like meets those needs.

533
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:11,200
I've used this brand of pen for 15 years because it is the best in my opinion.

534
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:18,280
And so I find something that like passes the satisfaction bar and then I'm like, boy, am

535
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,280
I happy.

536
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,920
This is wonderful.

537
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,280
What a great life I have.

538
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,240
I'm so satisfied.

539
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,840
And so that's kind of, I feel like that's kind of how, that's kind of how I am with,

540
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,720
with PHP and even inside of PHP.

541
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,360
I've done ye, I've done cake.

542
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,960
I've done goodness.

543
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,960
Oh, okay.

544
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,800
Cake two and three.

545
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,000
And then, then I found Laravel at, I think, I think I found Laravel at like four or 5.1

546
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,360
or something like that.

547
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,280
And at that point I was like, aha, this is a hammer with which I can build things.

548
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,520
And I've just continued to use that.

549
00:32:54,520 --> 00:33:00,080
And so that's like my, my personal, my personal journey to PHP.

550
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:07,280
I think like from a, from an ecosystem perspective, it is the, it is the no fuss.

551
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,640
It truly is the no fuss, like looked down upon working man's tool set.

552
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,200
And so there is no, there's no pomp and circumstance.

553
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,480
There's no, there's no pride.

554
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:25,640
There's no like, we're better than like, we're, everyone thinks we're stupid.

555
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,760
Like everyone makes fun of us.

556
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:35,240
And so that has led that, like, that, that like, outside evolutionary pressure of we're

557
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,440
not popular, we're not cool, we're not the jocks.

558
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:46,280
Like that, that, that evolutionary pressure has like shaped the ecosystem into an ecosystem

559
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:55,080
that in my opinion is very focused on shipping things versus talking about the ecosystem.

560
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:02,400
There's this like navel gazing about like, we should argue about this portion of the

561
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,520
stack and we should all invent our own solution.

562
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:12,520
Like just not to name names, but the PHP ecosystem doesn't, doesn't really have that because

563
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,920
it's not a popular place to hang out.

564
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:21,600
It's a place, it's a place for like construction guys, plumbers, HVAC guys, like all these working

565
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,120
class people of the programming world are over there being like, well, you know what,

566
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,080
we can hook up those two pipes and I bet the thing will work and like, yeah, let's do it.

567
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,080
That sounds great.

568
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,080
Let's do that.

569
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,760
And so we've gotten to this point where it's just like, guys, I don't know.

570
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:34,760
I made it.

571
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:35,760
Do you like it?

572
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,760
I shipped it.

573
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:37,760
And they're like, yeah, we love it.

574
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:38,760
It's awesome.

575
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,720
Instead of, hey, let's all get around and fight about our ecosystem forever.

576
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:44,720
So yeah.

577
00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:46,320
I would agree with that.

578
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:52,080
Okay, so I'm going to take the opportunity to speak about PHP tech because it was a PHP

579
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,680
event and has been a very, very incredible PHP event.

580
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,120
Have you ever been to PHP tech?

581
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,120
So good.

582
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,120
It's so, so, so good.

583
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,600
That one, PHP to EK.

584
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:03,600
Yeah.

585
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:04,600
Okay.

586
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:10,000
So it is coming back this year and I got an email in my inbox that they had dropped sponsorship

587
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,000
prices.

588
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:16,920
I'm selfishly, but also selflessly wanting to promote PHP tech because it is such a really,

589
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,560
it's just such a great event and you hit it exactly on the head in regards to the PHP

590
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,560
community.

591
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,320
I have no idea why I have stayed sort of devoted to PHP.

592
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,320
Yes.

593
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,040
I've dabbled in my DevRel career into these other places.

594
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,040
It's the community.

595
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,040
Like it absolutely is.

596
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,240
Like I can go in there and mind you, some of the first PHP events, I was like one of maybe

597
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,360
five total women who were there.

598
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,360
But guess what?

599
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:42,360
I never got hit on.

600
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,480
I never got like harassed.

601
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,120
I didn't have anyone trying to get in my grip.

602
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,360
Like it's, it's so different from the other events where I will get developers who will

603
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,680
either like honestly try to hit on me.

604
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,560
I'm like old and like, I don't get it, right?

605
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,560
Why are we doing this at Tech Events?

606
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,440
Or they'll try to essentially like, what's the right word?

607
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,440
Assert dominance.

608
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,440
Yes.

609
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,720
So let's call it that.

610
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:07,720
Yes.

611
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,040
They will assert dominance.

612
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,080
And it's like, I don't care.

613
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,960
I want to go hang out with other people that just want to build stuff.

614
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,600
We don't have to have this drama.

615
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,440
And so I very much agree with you in the sentiment of the ecosystem.

616
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,360
And so yeah, PHP Tech and PHP both awesome.

617
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,200
If you're in the PHP space, please check out PHP Tech.

618
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,880
Also if you're a company that can benefit from it, please check out their sponsors,

619
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:37,160
sponsorship levels, because I would very much love for this event to not die off and to be

620
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,160
to still continue.

621
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,160
So anyways.

622
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:40,160
I agree.

623
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,160
It's in Chicago.

624
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,840
Oh, I didn't know that actually.

625
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,400
It was in Atlanta before.

626
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,400
Oh man.

627
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:52,080
There's, I have some very funny memories of PHP Tech Atlanta.

628
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,360
That was a very good time.

629
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,360
I'm catching up on the chat here.

630
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,240
Jason has called you the PHP King.

631
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:02,440
I love it.

632
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,440
Yep.

633
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,360
And heard nothing but good things.

634
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,360
Hey Nick.

635
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,360
Glad to hear.

636
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,360
So we're going to do a Rizvel.

637
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:10,360
Hello.

638
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,360
Nice to see you.

639
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:12,760
Jason, Emmett and Nick.

640
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,160
And I think before that we had Ryan and Kevin.

641
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,640
So great to have everyone.

642
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,640
Okay.

643
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,560
So I haven't tried Larevel yet.

644
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,320
We talked about that.

645
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,640
And so you alluded to a few different things.

646
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,640
So before we wrap up here, I want to ask about this.

647
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,680
And I have one more question, but you alluded to the fact you can build really quickly.

648
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,480
So I'm going to assume you're referring to Larevel when you say that.

649
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:43,760
So for those who haven't touched Larevel or who haven't touched maybe PHP, walk us through

650
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,760
Larevel.

651
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,720
Like what's your experience like with that?

652
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:48,720
Why is it so quick?

653
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,120
Why do you think that it's so efficient?

654
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,240
I've heard the same thing, but want to hear your side.

655
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,240
Sure.

656
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:55,240
Okay.

657
00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:01,440
So we'll frame this whole thing in the context of building a proper web application.

658
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:09,120
So a couple of words in there, proper, meaning a little bit beyond just like a to-do list

659
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,120
or demo or something like that.

660
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,360
Web application, meaning some sort of SaaS, something that's online.

661
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,560
So we're not talking about embedded systems.

662
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,000
We're not talking about a lot of different stuff.

663
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,760
We're talking about building a proper web application.

664
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:30,960
So when you're building a proper web application, you need to consider a lot of things.

665
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,560
One of those things is what's your front end going to be?

666
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,160
And that's where most people stop.

667
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,160
That's where people are like, aha, I'm going to argue forever about my front end.

668
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:42,160
Okay.

669
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Cool.

670
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,160
You picked a front end.

671
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,160
Now what?

672
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:50,760
You need background jobs because in a proper web application, you have to offload some

673
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:51,760
stuff.

674
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:57,640
Like if you haven't thought about or implemented CSV handling, there's a question about whether

675
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,480
it's like, is this a proper web application?

676
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,920
At some point, every web app has something like, hey, they need exports.

677
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,080
I'm like, well, F, how are we going to do exports?

678
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,080
They need imports.

679
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,080
How are we going to do that?

680
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,080
Okay.

681
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,400
So then you start to get to the point where you're like, okay, if we're building, if we're

682
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:20,720
building even, not even a SaaS, it could just be a back office for a company.

683
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:26,360
If you're building a back office for a company, you've got some processes that need to run

684
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,760
every morning, every weekday morning, every Monday morning, every first of the month.

685
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,360
And so you're building a proper web app and you're like, wait, the business dictates that

686
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,880
email reports go out on Monday morning and Friday afternoon.

687
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,280
How do I do that?

688
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:43,280
Okay.

689
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:44,680
Well, you have a few options.

690
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,320
One is you could sign up for a service.

691
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:53,960
You could sign up for a VC backed service that is trying to sell you Cron for $99 a month.

692
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:59,240
And you're like, boy, building web apps is complicated and expensive.

693
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:07,040
And so that is a viable path that a lot of people take that is not my preference.

694
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:13,920
And so when it comes to building a proper web application, Laravel comes with all of

695
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,200
the things that you need.

696
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,560
And I hear people saying, well, there are open source packages for all of the things

697
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:19,920
that I need.

698
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:27,360
And so I prefer, I prefer to grab all my favorite components off the shelf and stitch them together.

699
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,360
That's fine.

700
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,800
If that's your preference, that's totally fine.

701
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,680
That is not my preference because every time you grab an open source library off the shelf,

702
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,400
a best in class open source library, and that's always the argument.

703
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:46,800
It's like, well, I want to use the most popular queuing library that it has all the bells

704
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,160
and whistles, and you're like, OK, this month or this year, what's going to happen when

705
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,720
next month there's a better one.

706
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:56,440
That is an argument.

707
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:06,800
I think the more impactful argument is, OK, you've got some internal, some nucleus of

708
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,800
like business logic, right?

709
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,120
And then you're pulling in a queue library.

710
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,360
You're pulling in a background, like a Cron library.

711
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,200
You're pulling in an email thing, you're pulling in an auth thing, you're pulling in an ORM.

712
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:26,040
Every thing that you pull in must talk to every other thing, right?

713
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:34,840
And so now you have this nucleus of business logic, which is probably ill-formed, unformed,

714
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,000
living in some like slash lib directory, right?

715
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:44,240
You've got your nucleus of business logic, and then you are maintaining the connections

716
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:48,440
between all of these different best in class resources, right?

717
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,400
So like, OK, well, here, what about this?

718
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,640
I need to queue.

719
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,240
I have a user that wants to send an email.

720
00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:05,360
I'm going to queue this job with this user and these models and send this email later.

721
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:12,560
In Laravel, you can queue a job and you can send the models into the queue and the models

722
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:17,200
get dehydrated and then when the queue comes back alive, they get rehydrated out of the

723
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:23,600
database and you can just send the email directly with Laravel first party components because

724
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,360
everything is meant to work together.

725
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:32,240
And so you can have this system where it's like, all right, I need authentication.

726
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:34,240
These are all things that Laravel comes with out of the box.

727
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,360
I need authentication.

728
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,720
I need an ORM.

729
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,040
In my opinion, a world class ORM.

730
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,040
I need an ORM.

731
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,520
I need background jobs.

732
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,480
I need scheduling.

733
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,560
I need a sort of like PubSub, like a venting system so I can get to send data back and

734
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,360
forth between the front end if I want.

735
00:42:54,360 --> 00:43:02,320
I need all of these things and I need them to all work together and that's where I think

736
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,480
Laravel really shines is it has everything.

737
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,000
So the term full stack framework has become a little muddied and so I think there's been

738
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,000
a shift.

739
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,320
I don't work at Laravel, but I think there's been a shift towards like batteries included

740
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,320
framework.

741
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,680
And so Laravel is in the same way that Rails is, Laravel is a batteries included framework.

742
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:29,560
So imagine you want to actually build an application like Restream.

743
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,160
You're going to need a bunch of stuff, right?

744
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:38,360
You're going to need all sorts of background work that is not like close to the web because

745
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,200
you're mucking about with video.

746
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,800
You've got to scale up, scale down.

747
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,520
You've got to do all this stuff.

748
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,280
Laravel has everything you would need to do that.

749
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:53,960
And so whenever I encounter, these are solved problems.

750
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,640
Background jobs are not new.

751
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,600
They've been around for 1000 years.

752
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,480
And so I don't want to have to like figure out, oh, how am I going to do a background

753
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:03,480
job?

754
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,200
I just want to know, all right, I can just say put this in the background and I know

755
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,160
that I've got a key worker that's running that is also managed by Laravel.

756
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:16,200
And I can say, hey, run this job, retry three times.

757
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:21,680
If it fails, send me an email at admin at my site.com.

758
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:26,320
And also write the output to this log and also raise this alert to Slack.

759
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,880
It's like, hey, that's pretty great.

760
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,440
Like there are a lot of things.

761
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,720
There are a lot of things when building an application, a back office, a SaaS, whatever,

762
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:39,960
there are a lot of things that you have to figure out.

763
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:46,120
But figuring out how to run a schedule, like run a command on a timer should not be one

764
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,440
of the things that you're having to figure out.

765
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,760
You should be figuring out what is my like unique value.

766
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,040
And beyond that, how am I going to make anybody care about it?

767
00:44:55,040 --> 00:45:00,440
And so like we get so hung up on, well, Prisma versus Drizzle.

768
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,680
I'm like, what the hell are y'all talking about?

769
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,480
You're switching your whole ORM layer?

770
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,200
Like why?

771
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,400
And that's the thing where I'm just like, that's not my interest.

772
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:20,480
Some people I think, I think that is a hobby for some people and I am so happy for them.

773
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,040
That is not my hobby.

774
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:31,440
And my time is better spent trying to figure out what is this application going to do and

775
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,880
how am I going to make people care about it?

776
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,440
And not spent thinking, well, Prisma does joins on the client side.

777
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,680
And Drizzle pushes them to the database.

778
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,560
It's like, all right, I got stuff I got to do.

779
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:53,280
And so that's kind of like my view on the landscape of programming frameworks and why

780
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,320
I like Laravel.

781
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:02,240
Because I like the batteries that they have included.

782
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,200
And I like that it all works together.

783
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,960
And I am sensitive to the notion that some people come to something like that and they're

784
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,680
like, I want to choose my own batteries.

785
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,680
That's great.

786
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:13,680
I'm happy for you.

787
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:14,680
I don't want to do that.

788
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:20,600
And so I think that's something that gets lost a lot in these discussions online where

789
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:27,760
people want different things and are optimizing for different things and then talking to each

790
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,680
other as if they're optimizing and wanting the same things.

791
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:39,800
And so people are optimizing for control and flexibility.

792
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,960
And then they're talking to people who are optimizing for speed of deployment and joy

793
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:46,400
and stuff like that.

794
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,760
And they're like, why can't you understand what I'm saying?

795
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,200
And it's like, because we're not even pointed the same direction.

796
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,200
That's why.

797
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,760
And so that's where I think people just talk past each other.

798
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,080
And the question needs to be asked.

799
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,040
Like, what are you optimizing for?

800
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:08,960
And if you can have a discussion with someone who is optimizing for the same thing, the

801
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:14,440
discussion is going to be a lot more profitable in terms of coming to an agreement.

802
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,600
But if you're having a discussion with somebody who's optimizing for different things, that's

803
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:19,800
super great.

804
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,760
Just don't try to argue about who's right and who's wrong.

805
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,760
Because one of you is optimizing for, let's say, one of you is optimizing for making a

806
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,640
ton of money and one of you is optimizing for living in the woods.

807
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,880
Like of course you're not going to come to an agreement.

808
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,640
Those are totally different things.

809
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:35,920
Why would we do that?

810
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,280
And so I think that's where people go awry online.

811
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:41,280
Yeah.

812
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,280
Wow.

813
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,040
That was amazing, first off.

814
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,240
Amazing in regards to explaining Laravel and why you should choose to use it or not use

815
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:50,240
it.

816
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,840
But also amazing to how you sort of unveiled this way of looking at things.

817
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:55,840
Because you're right, right?

818
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,440
And I first constantly want to argue, which I tell my clients, I'm like, hit them in the

819
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:00,440
feelers.

820
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:01,440
I don't fit, mean physically.

821
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:06,120
I mean, get them having that argument, get them talking about that.

822
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,560
But you are so right about them being pointed in the right direction, right?

823
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,800
Because oftentimes it really is just a let me throw out my favorite tool.

824
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,400
And it's like us advocating for like our dogs or our kids, right?

825
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,760
I'm like, I have the cutest kid.

826
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,200
You know, like you're never going to win that argument with someone else who has another

827
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:22,200
kid.

828
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,200
It's just not going to happen.

829
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,200
No.

830
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:25,200
No.

831
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,600
It's like trying to convince somebody why a certain TV show is objectively the best

832
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,600
in the world.

833
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:31,600
Exactly.

834
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Right.

835
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,640
And some people might want to have a technical discussion about that.

836
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,320
And some people might just want to say, oh man, I like Seinfeld because it's funny.

837
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,320
Like it's friends.

838
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,480
Those are just, no, see, here we are.

839
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,480
Those are just, those are just different.

840
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:51,400
And it's like, let's have a fun, let's have a fun, like, you know, dinner time discussion

841
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:52,400
about their differences.

842
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,200
But let's not try to convince each other that like these two things are even able to be

843
00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,200
compared.

844
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:05,080
And so I don't know, people, people seem to, people seem to miss that all the time online.

845
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,080
Yeah.

846
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:12,240
I think so for me, like, you know, coming, coming back into sort of the Laravel conversation

847
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:16,440
for me, what I have struggled with in the latter part of my career, because I've been

848
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,080
in developer relations and been in, you know, leadership.

849
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,320
And so I haven't necessarily been able to code and build things like I would have been

850
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,400
enjoyed building things.

851
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,440
And so I still struggle with generally like the frameworks because I'm a little bit of

852
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:30,720
like maybe an older dev.

853
00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:35,480
Like I, I want to know my whole system, you know, like I want to understand Laravel from

854
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,320
the bottom all the way to the top.

855
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,620
How does all of that function?

856
00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:40,600
How does everything connect together?

857
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,120
Because I don't like using frameworks and things that are already prebuilt because then if there

858
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,040
is something that is wrong, I'm like, I have no idea how to troubleshoot this.

859
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:49,440
So do you feel like that?

860
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:50,960
Like, how do you relate to that?

861
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:52,760
How does that resonate with you as you think about Laravel?

862
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,320
It's like, it doesn't matter because you don't experience those types of issues or have you

863
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,960
found yourself sort of over time understanding the actual system at which exists behind Laravel?

864
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,480
Yeah, I think I'm super sensitive to that point.

865
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:14,680
And I think this is another, another vote in favor of picking your thing and sticking

866
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:15,680
with it.

867
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,320
Like, I am able, I am able to.

868
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,920
Even I either just know what's going on.

869
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:30,680
If not, I'm able to deduce what's going on given all of my like years of context in Laravel.

870
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,960
And so I think those two things help a lot.

871
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:41,680
But also, I think I have, I think I, I think I potentially took the hard road to get here

872
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,160
and it is now continuing to serve me well.

873
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:52,400
And so like, everything that I've learned has been through sheer force of will.

874
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:59,000
And so I will watch, I will watch people or see people online or sometimes watch streams

875
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,240
and they're like, oh, this didn't work.

876
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:05,200
And I guess I'll just go like make a stack over from not anymore, but make a Stack Overflow

877
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,800
post about it or I'll go ask chat GPT about it or like, I'll, you know, complain on Twitter

878
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,240
that it's not working.

879
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:16,480
And that has literally never been my first gut reaction.

880
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:22,280
My gut reaction is to command click into like the method that I'm calling, which takes you

881
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:28,520
down into the source of Laravel and put like a poor man's debugging statement down there,

882
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,760
which is just like dump out this variable and then terminate program.

883
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,320
Just dump and die.

884
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,480
And then I look on the screen and be like, huh, that's not what I thought it was.

885
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,320
Let me go one level deeper.

886
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,360
And I just keep doing that until it's like, Oh, that's, that's as false.

887
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,000
I thought, given this point, I thought that would be true.

888
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:48,120
I wonder why that is.

889
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:53,840
And then we come back out and we figure out like where in the stack my understanding of

890
00:51:53,840 --> 00:52:00,640
the, like my internal compiler is wrong and I'm looking at the code and I'm like, Oh,

891
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:01,640
okay.

892
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,760
Well, when that happens, then it switches it from true to false because this thing is

893
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:05,760
not available.

894
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,560
Oh, I mean, it's like, I'm going to make that thing available.

895
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:16,320
And so like in terms of not understanding what the framework is doing, that certainly

896
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,040
still happens, but it's happening few fewer times and further between.

897
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:27,640
And anytime it does happen, I update my internal reference by just like by source diving the

898
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:33,480
number of times that I've asked people like, well, did you go look like, did you go look

899
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,960
in the vendor directory, which is like our node modules?

900
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:37,520
Did you go look in the vendor directory?

901
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,520
Oh no, I don't go in there.

902
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:40,520
Why not?

903
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,640
That's where all the code is.

904
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,440
Go see what's happening.

905
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,240
And people will tweet at Taylor.

906
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:48,160
I just see it like fly by my timeline.

907
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:49,160
People will tweet at Taylor.

908
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,720
Hey man, like I'm doing this thing and this thing isn't working.

909
00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:54,160
And I'm like, brother, you're lost.

910
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,160
You're never, you're never going to get there.

911
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:03,280
If this is your reaction to tweet at the creator of the framework, like why is this part not

912
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:04,280
working?

913
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,480
Dude, he has no idea.

914
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,360
Like go dive down there and figure it out yourself.

915
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,160
And then, then after you have done that, ask all the questions in the world.

916
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:23,400
But never in my, in my, in my opinion, never go ask a question without being able to say,

917
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:24,400
here's what I've tried.

918
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,640
So if you go to ask a question and you're here's what I've tried.

919
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,560
Array is totally empty.

920
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,120
You're not ready to ask the question yet.

921
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:36,240
You need to go ask the question and say, well, I dug in to this part.

922
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:40,120
I found this event fired, but it wasn't caught anywhere.

923
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:41,920
And I don't understand why.

924
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:42,920
That's great.

925
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,240
You do not have to figure everything out on your own, but like, God, you've got to try.

926
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:50,200
Like you've got to try something.

927
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:55,440
And then you can go out there with a richer set of contexts and ask better questions and

928
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,880
say like, I've tried X, Y and Z.

929
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,800
Don't offer me solutions there because I've tried that.

930
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:01,800
Given that information.

931
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,120
What are the things going on here?

932
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,600
And it's just like, it just goes way, way better.

933
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:07,600
Yeah.

934
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:08,600
Okay.

935
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:09,600
I love that so much.

936
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,800
Well, I think between my tweets and conversations, I'm, I'm definitely convinced that I need

937
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,360
to start with a layer of LMI in my actual build out.

938
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,360
So I'm so excited to dive into that.

939
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,000
I just need to like get back into code.

940
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:25,560
I feel so much imposter syndrome over like I'm a developer, but I'm not a developer.

941
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,640
And it's like, no, I am still a developer.

942
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,080
I still build things and create solutions with code.

943
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:36,200
And by therefore need to just continue to do getting a little spam in our chat today.

944
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,520
It's because of your, your big influence.

945
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:42,400
Oh, the best viewers are on smidgen.online.

946
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:43,400
Yeah.

947
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,000
I believe that's definitely true.

948
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,000
Probably true.

949
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,000
That's definitely true.

950
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,000
Okay.

951
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,880
So you shared the last question before we wrap up, cause we are like really actually

952
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,200
literally nearing the actual extended block of time that I have for the show.

953
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,920
Um, cause it's such a joy to chat with you, but how do you get unstuck?

954
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,800
You gave us a really good sort of clue into how you get unstuck in Lairville.

955
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:03,800
Awesome.

956
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:04,920
Loved it.

957
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:06,680
How do you generally get unstuck?

958
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:11,840
And so maybe you're thinking about more high level things, you know, decisions, process,

959
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,440
um, or maybe it's tool decision, right?

960
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:20,280
What do you use when it's outside or adding upon your beautiful Lairville stack?

961
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:28,440
Oh, um, I feel like, I feel like I get stuck a lot.

962
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:36,800
And, and so I don't, I don't know if anyone like this exists or if it's just a facade,

963
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:41,960
but it seems like some people just breeze from like success to success and when to when,

964
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:50,000
and I feel like I sit here in this studio often being like, what the hell am I doing?

965
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,760
This like, what am I going to do?

966
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:53,760
What am I doing?

967
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,800
Why am I doing any of this?

968
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,360
And so I am, I am no stranger to like that feeling and I have it quite often.

969
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:07,360
And so, um, I have, I have a few, like a few tactics, techniques, strategies.

970
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:13,400
One is, um, motion, motion begets motion and progress begets progress.

971
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:19,000
And so when I'm feeling very stuck and I wrote it, I wrote an article titled this, I do literally

972
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,880
anything like just do anything.

973
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:29,760
And once I have found, um, that motivation springs from action and not the other way

974
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:36,800
around, like I don't, I don't, um, I don't sit here and, uh, whip myself up into a lather

975
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,640
and be like, all right, now I am motivated and I'm ready to work.

976
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:41,640
No.

977
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,200
Usually I actually don't know if that has ever worked.

978
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,880
What has worked is I'm going to start working.

979
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,760
I'm going to start working.

980
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:54,960
I don't know exactly what I'm going to do, but I'm going to do something.

981
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,280
And once I get in motion, like the clouds start to part and I'm like, oh, okay.

982
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,760
Like, yeah, all right, let's do some stuff.

983
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:02,760
Let's let, I'm here.

984
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:03,760
Let's go.

985
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:04,760
Let's do it.

986
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:11,960
Um, when I don't know, when I don't know where to even begin, I, uh, I just write stuff

987
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,600
down on paper.

988
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:19,560
Like, um, I, I don't, I don't want to faff around with like second brain

989
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:20,560
systems.

990
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:28,680
I've got, I've got like stacks of legal yellow pads, Amazon basics, legal yellow pads and

991
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,000
a zebra pen.

992
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,160
And I just start writing down everything that is stressing me out.

993
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:39,240
Literally like, you need to replace the, need to replace the rails on the cab, the trash

994
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,480
cabinet at home.

995
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,560
Need to respond to this email that I've avoided for five days.

996
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,960
Like just write down everything that is stressing me out.

997
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,840
And that process of writing everything down makes me feel better.

998
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,720
Cause then I look at it and I'm like, those are just tasks.

999
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,480
Like what is wrong with you, man?

1000
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:00,080
Then I look at all the tasks and I'm like, I don't want to do any of those.

1001
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:05,560
But the one I want, the one, the one that I, I don't mind as much as the others is this

1002
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:06,560
one.

1003
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:07,560
I'm going to start with that one.

1004
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:08,560
And then you're in the game.

1005
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:13,840
Like then the wheels are turned in and the other stuff becomes a whole lot easier.

1006
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,440
As you get over this, like the world is stressing me out.

1007
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,000
I don't know why.

1008
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,520
And so I'm going to look at Twitter that can go on for hours.

1009
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,280
And so you have to break that cycle of like, all right, the world is stressing me out.

1010
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:29,640
I don't know why.

1011
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,760
I don't know if I'm going to do literally anything.

1012
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,200
I literally don't know of anything to do.

1013
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:39,720
So I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write out my hopes, dreams and fears on a

1014
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:41,360
piece of paper.

1015
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:42,360
And that will help.

1016
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,800
That has always, that has always helped me every single time.

1017
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:48,080
I love that so much.

1018
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:54,120
I am a very much a pen and paper person, but I kept like losing notes and I'd be like,

1019
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,000
I already thought through this.

1020
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,440
Like I already had this brain, you know, escape.

1021
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:03,360
And so I switched to the iPad with the Apple pencil.

1022
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:09,560
So I can like start searching my like massive amounts of notes because I do the same thing.

1023
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:14,000
I'm still not as diligent as I could be, but yeah, I love that approach.

1024
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,000
Just getting it out.

1025
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,720
I definitely don't write about my stresses and I, and I should, I think that would very

1026
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:18,720
much help in my business.

1027
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:19,720
Totally should.

1028
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:20,720
Yeah.

1029
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,640
I'm, I am going to try that literally after we get off this call, honestly.

1030
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:25,640
Yes.

1031
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:26,640
Yes.

1032
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:27,640
It's very helpful.

1033
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:33,120
I think, yeah, back here, those are two or three or four or five Amazon basics, yellow

1034
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:38,400
legal pads that are totally full page after page after page after page, totally full of

1035
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:39,400
things.

1036
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,960
Here's what I'm working on today slash here are my deepest darkest fears and why I'm a

1037
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,560
failure and it's like, all right, next page.

1038
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:46,920
And then we're on to the next day.

1039
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,680
And then let's go back like three or four or five years and they're just, that's just

1040
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:51,680
there.

1041
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,840
And I don't like, I don't organize it.

1042
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,000
I don't keep track of it.

1043
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:56,880
What will come, will come, what will go, will go.

1044
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,640
And if I ever need to look back, I can, you know, I date every single page is dated.

1045
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:06,080
So if I have to look back, I could, but most of the time it's just the process.

1046
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,440
That's the most helpful part.

1047
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:09,440
Yeah.

1048
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:10,440
I love that.

1049
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,640
Honestly, like you probably will go back and look at that notebook over the last year from

1050
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:18,520
your business because I feel like that's where I feel I've been the most reflective in my

1051
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,880
life is like, is the last year, right?

1052
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,840
Of like almost year of growing my business and being like, okay, what did I do last month?

1053
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:25,840
Where is this different?

1054
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,840
What have I learned?

1055
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,920
And man, if I had all that in a notebook, I have some of my, my I guess go back and

1056
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,400
just relive that life.

1057
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:34,400
Hopefully, right?

1058
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,520
And there's a future at which we are out of the emotional pains of starting a business

1059
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:43,920
and, and can see it from a more beautiful light in the future.

1060
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:44,920
That's the dream.

1061
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:45,920
Love it.

1062
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:46,920
Yeah.

1063
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:47,920
All right.

1064
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:48,920
Well, I don't want to keep you any longer.

1065
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:49,920
It's already 11.

1066
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:50,920
Thank you so much for your time.

1067
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,160
I like love chatting with you and hanging out with you.

1068
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:59,360
I know that you made a comment about people looking at you as an influencer versus an educator,

1069
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,400
absolutely an educator, one of the best educators I've ever met.

1070
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:08,280
But honestly, you are such a good human being that you are an influencer by extension and

1071
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:09,600
the world needs it.

1072
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:14,960
So as much as you, yeah, well, as much as you don't necessarily care for that term,

1073
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,720
I personally appreciate that, that you do have the cloud that you do because you deserve

1074
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,840
it and the world deserves to have more air and time.

1075
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:22,000
That's incredibly kind.

1076
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:23,000
Thank you so much.

1077
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:24,000
Thanks for having me.

1078
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,000
This was a lot of fun.

1079
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:26,000
Yeah.

1080
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:27,000
This was super fun.

1081
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:28,000
Okay.

1082
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,240
Well, I hope that everyone has a fabulous rest of their day.

1083
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:31,240
See y'all tomorrow.

1084
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:32,240
Bye, friends.

1085
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:33,240
Bye.

1086
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,240
Bye.