Hello, hello. We are live again today with the 99 Dev Problem Show. Today I have Brian
Castle with us, which is honestly a great joy because Brian attends a fellow business
event that I absolutely love to attend and get a lot of value from. And so he's a speaker
there. He has attended many years and just a really great human to know. So Brian, I'd
love for you to introduce yourself.
Yeah, Tessa, thanks for having me on. Great to connect with you as always. And yeah, I
mean, these days I am a software product maker. And that comes in many forms, but I run a
shop called Instrumental Products at InstrumentalProducts.com. And currently it's sort of a mix. We
do some services. I've got a small team and myself, we work with clients and we build
out their V1 MVP software products. But we're also working on a line of products for developers,
especially aimed at people who are building their own products. I work a lot in the Ruby
on Rails ecosystem, all of the products that I build and use and create are in Rails. And
so right now I'm actually working on a Rails components product in that space. So yeah.
Yeah, I love that. We'll definitely dive into that because I know people are going to want
to hear about it. And like I'd shared in the pre notes or pre chatting, I've had a couple
different Rails developers come on and they're so passionate about it and like their passion
is contagious. And so they have me being like, okay, I think I need to learn Rails. Like
I might need to dive into this with my like re-entering back into coding. So it's exciting
to chat to another with another Rails Dev as well.
I love Rails and I think most Rails Devs say something like that. Like they truly love
it. And that's been the branding of Rails since day one, like going back like 20 years.
Now Ruby, the programming language Ruby is sort of like intended for like developer happiness.
If you that's kind of more fuzzy, but it's like reading Ruby code. And like literally
it's it's that's what drew me into it in the beginning is it's it's easy to read and understand
and and like just see like understand like logically like what am I reading here. It makes
sense using like kind of human language. But then Ruby on Rails is sort of like the fast
track to putting a product together. And that's what has always really attracted me to it.
And that's why I think Rails is still today in 2025. In my opinion, one of the best tool
sets or frameworks for rapidly building out and shipping a v1 product. It's used on huge
sites as well. Like things like GitHub and stuff are built in Rails. But like, I think
it's especially great for like bootstrapped entrepreneurs who are shipping a new product.
Yeah, definitely. Which obviously is your your specialty, right is helping those bootstrapped
businesses or founders be able to bring those apps together quickly, which I think is really
creative and cool. The developers dream honestly most folks in the these interview sessions
are like, Oh, if I could just build products and code all day, we talk about Legos and
building products like Legos and how it's just this beautiful thing of stacking the
Legos to create something magical. Well, that's me. I mean, I wish I could spend all my time
doing that too. I'm trying to. Yeah, it is still a challenge for me, even like, you know,
kind of balancing like I would love to have most days where I am just in quiet like building,
designing, coding session mode. But you know, stuff to put together things like services
and product high services or consulting to make sure I'm self funding and keeping the
revenue flowing, you know. Yeah, absolutely for sure. Okay, so let's start sort of in
the beginning of your developer career. I like to ask this question because we all come
from different walks of life. But what is your developer or technical education if it's
formal self taught, etc. Yeah, I feel like I took an uncommon sort of like winding path
to where I am today. I mean, today, I am like a full stack designer and developer going
back about 1520 years. I think I started my professional career about 1920 years ago as
a front end developer like HTML and CSS was my literally like my first job at an agency
just doing that. And so I was a front end guy for probably the first 10 years of my
career. But during that time I also picked up WordPress that that's how I became very
connected to the WordPress ecosystem. And front like HTML CSS and a lot of like just
front end design stuff was my thing. And then I lean heavily on things like WordPress to
build a little bit more dynamic stuff, whether it's just a CMS or like I actually have like
a SAS built on WordPress with restaurant engine. But then it wasn't like sort of fast forward
to 2018 is when I sort of got frustrated with my limitations as just a front end person.
And I spent the whole year of 2018 learning how to transition to being a full stack being
able to actually build and ship a SAS product myself. And I dabbled in in Larval a little
bit and looked at different options. But I landed on rails like I said, because it was
the most attractive and simplest and easiest for me to not only learn but like I found
that like I was able to actually build something. You know, the fastest with that. So I spent
the year in 18 like taking courses and I worked with some coaches and I did some practice
projects. And then by 2019 I was actually able to start to build like my own products
with rails and then just you know, continuing on since then doing multiple products, learning
and just getting stronger and stronger with that with that stack, if you will. And I'm
always still learning today and then there, you know, so sometimes I look I look back
on my career of how I got here. There are a lot of career developers who have like a
CS degree, which I don't. Or they or they learned more of the back end side like earlier
in their career, whereas I came around to it much later. And I sort of regret that,
you know, like I don't have like the under the underpinning of like computer science
or like back end database stuff that that all came later. So I still feel like a little
bit of a of a new even though I'm pretty fast and efficient with it today. But yeah, that's
that's where I am. I love that. I think to just speak to the last thing that you said
in terms of like being a new I really feel like no matter your level of experience, no
matter the number of roles that you play, no matter what those roles look like and where
they're at, I think we all can just feel like a new sometimes like I so resonated with that
story that you shared because that's where I started. I don't have a computer science
degree either. tried to go to college. It just wasn't my thing. So I started out as a front
end dev as well. Same exact path really focused in that front end. Then I got into Jumla
like Drupal WordPress, dove into the sequel some of the PHP, right, but still never felt
like I had all of that foundation. And when you shifted over to diving into more of that
full stack career, I should shifted into developer relations. And so I feel the same way and
that I feel like I wish that I would have invested more in those earlier days to actually
be full stack back then but it is what I think about that a lot like I that's a big regret
of mine is like 2018 I was already over 10 years into being self employed, right? And
like probably 1415 years into like my career. And I remember going like going back to like
in 2008 and 2007 when I was employed at an agency like I felt like I was just a designer
and a front end person. And the back end stuff was some sort of magic wizardry, not, you
know, capable of doing. And that was like my mindset for like over 10 years, you know,
I actually like learned it and it's actually not that difficult to it's it's challenging
but like just like anything else, you just give it some time and you'll figure it out.
Yep. Yep. Yeah, exact. Same the same thing, right? It's the regret of not doing it when
the opportunity may have been there so that you were just a little bit further ahead.
Hello to those in the chat. Nick is a regular great to see you Nick who will also be on
the show next week which is great. Jeff says I don't have a CS degree and I feel the same
way a lot of times but we can all learn to do what needs to be done as long as there
is support fully agree and honestly like that's how developers are right that's why we see
so many open source projects. That's why we see these different opportunities like Brian
I think that's really sort of the essence of your business right is like we as developers
really enjoy building stuff and we really enjoy helping other people and so how do we
get to all build stuff and make the world a better place with our fellow developers?
Yeah, I mean and I don't know if you wanted to get into this today but like the AI situation
let's do it. Let's do it. Our world is like I'm so fascinated by it and I'm also trying
to like figure out where things are going. I'm absolutely leaning on AI a lot. I use
cursor every day and it's completely changed the way that I build and ship stuff and I
think back to 2018 when I was learning Rails which was you know a few years before the
AI wave and man I would have like learned 20 times faster if I had chat GBT by my side
back then. So but today I'm finding that like getting to work with AI in my building and
coding workflow is actually making me even more ambitious about the kind of products
that I can build. You know because it's like literally it not only like speeds up the number
of lines that I can build that I can write per minute but it's also like I'm taking on
projects and product ideas that maybe last year the year before I would have been like
that might be a good idea but I just know how big of a lift that is to build but now
that I know that I have AI in the tool belt I know that I can sort of get through that
lift a lot faster whether that's like breaking through like roadblocks a lot easier because
I have I can troubleshoot easier with AI or just having it build out parts you know that's
been a big one. So so I'm like sort of really interested right now to learn how not only
developers are using AI but and then we're also seeing like non developers start to build
software apps using AI and and how that they interact with it and then what does it mean
for us like for people who not only make a career as software developers but also like
people who make a career offering software products when people can just build their
own product are they still going to buy SaaS products like so many open questions right
now. Yes, yes, I agree. So follow up question to you using cursor or sort of chat GPT you
said you use cursor every day. Would you say if you had to like throw a percentage at how
how much do you think that it has saved you time like I've heard like 20% productivity
improvement like that type of number would you do you have an estimate? It's hard to
think about that. I do. I just know that I'm so much faster in general. I think that I
think it's I mean I know the pathway to building something a lot faster whereas like a few
years ago I would have been spending more time figuring out like okay I did this part
now what do I need to work on next to get to get. Now I sort of know what that roadmap
is a lot faster and that's that's more just like experience of building a lot of stuff
over time. Sure. But then in terms of like cursor and just using AI in general the thing
where I really noticed the speed increase is when I get stuck. I mean in 2018, 2019,
even 2020 if I got stuck on a technical problem I would literally spend a week maybe maybe
two weeks just banging my head against the desk until I figure it out and I'm googling
like crazy and I'm or I'm pulling in friends to help me figure this out like I'm just stuck
and it's like glue I cannot make progress on this product it would take me sometimes
a week or two or more. Now but now it's like 10 minutes like you know because it's like
I could it's just about asking all right like all right I'm a little stuck here let me throw
it into the into the prompt and see what comes back with AI and then it's not going to give
me the right answer right away but it'll send me down a path that like within 10 or 20 minutes
now I'm unblocked and I can keep going and like that's a massive speed increase. Yeah.
That's almost something that you can't really measure. I mean you can have an approximation
right if you were a week, two weeks sometimes stuck on something having to likely pivot
or work on something else or bring other people in right then I mean that's huge so for you
it's not necessarily like a 20% or a 30% it's like a could be days and weeks helping you
get unblocked. That's the big one is like getting unblocked. That's that's where I see
the massive speed boost I mean I do also do things where like it yeah it completes my
lines of code that's a little bit faster sometimes like if the more like grunt work if you will
I'll be on AI so like all right I just need a controller I need to build out a maller
for this for this piece of the app just like give it to me so that I can like one click
put it in and then I'll finalize it you know instead of me like writing all the lines like
that's that makes it a little bit faster too. Yeah yeah that's awesome. Jeff with his good
commentary in here just shared is it it is really good at debugging things too that takes
a lot of time out of the process which I think is also really helpful. I'm not writing a
ton of code in my day to day honestly don't write hardly any code but I still get stuck
in different ways as I'm working with clients and as I'm diving into different things because
I'm still looking at code and reviewing developer experience and trying to understand this getting
started guide do what it needs to actually do. And so I agree that it is really really
helpful for that I've been able to even just pop in some of the like different pieces of
docs and being like what would you change and it actually will give me a completely different
version I'm like oh that's that's great and it's not necessarily like that I can't think
of those things and I am per se stuck but it's nice to get sort of a different insight
into the things that I'm working on and I've I've found a lot of value there too. Looks
like RJ jumped in it's really helpful in writing queries and helping to write test cases as
well. Yeah I heard testing is really really really good which could be a really beautiful
time saver you know when you're looking to get all of that set up. For sure yeah. I think
the the consensus of AI you know from different guests that I've talked to you in different
developer events to just kind of you know share a little bit more sentiment with you
as we had a good conversation around which developers we feel like would find more success
from AI right like is it going to be like the early stage that junior developers who
are new in their career is going to be sort of that mid stage or sort of that senior.
I felt like it was going to be very helpful for sort of that mid stage I think it also
will help juniors but if we're talking about most the greatest impact right. I felt like
when you're using AI you have to be able to push back so if you are a junior and you don't
necessarily understand the connectivity of a database right or how that comes together
then you don't know how to push back which is an issue I had with it. I'm like hey you
don't even have my like database credentials you're missing database credentials right
and so I was able to say that and then be like oh yes you are. I think the middle stage
right is going to get the greatest impact because they they know enough to ask the right questions
while they're still in there like writing a ton of code. If you had to sort of compare
career path early, mid, later stage what's maybe your hypothesis of developers you think
get the greatest impact. I mean I'm pretty out of touch with like junior developers
at large companies I just don't know what that whole world even looks like so it's hard for
me to really speak to that. I can only assume that it might be kind of rough out there for those
folks. It is. But my thought on it because I have come across some some very experienced
career software developers who are pretty resistant to using AI in their workflow
and I don't really agree with that approach. Everyone has different goals and what they're
working on but like especially if you're working on products I happen to think that
that if you if you are a full stack developer before AI you know if you were if you had the
product shops before AI came along now that AI is here I think that I think that we as full
stack people have like a 10x or 50x advantage in using AI in our work over the the non-coder
who is using AI to build stuff. Like I think that a non-technical person it's incredible what a
non-technical person can actually build now with the help of AI without needing to learn how to code
but I feel like that can only take them to like 20% of what we are capable of of doing because
I actually use it more like I'm working with a junior developer sitting next to me but that person's
AI so like I'm instructing it to like you know build out this part of it and or or look at this
and and make these fixes or what you just gave me is not quite right just fix it in these ways so
like I'm sort of like training it like like it's a junior developer who's like carrying out my vision
for what I what it is that I want to build and so that's where having like like product experience
it's really helps you know that's so I would probably think that like AI probably favors the
mid to to more senior level developers I don't know what role in like an organization that would
really look like but just sure like having having experience is a is a multiplier with AI it's not
like it's like I don't think that we should think of it as a threat to replacing us I kind of think
that like the junior people are a little bit more at a threat than than the mid and senior people are
you know sure yeah which is unfortunate because gosh junior people are like just at a threat right
now generally like a lot of the code schools at boot camps that we're seeing are shutting down
like Minneapolis had a really great one for a number of years that actually top rails as well
and that one you know is shutting down and I think that's it's just really unfortunate so to be a
junior dev today is a very very difficult place to be unfortunately it is but you know what I'll say
to the junior folks and this is like you know someone in their 40s talking to somebody like 10
20 years younger than me um uh I think that now is such a perfect time to just go out and build
something and take way more risks you know yeah uh I mean you're at such a huge advantage to those
of us who were trying to take risks in our 20s 20 years ago um look the the world and our parents
and everyone are going to be harping on like you need job security you need this and that but you
know what in your 20s just go for it you have so much time to figure it out and now you have all
the tools so even if you don't um even if you don't have full coding skills you do have AI there's
boot camp there's thousands of boot camps in the world that you can get into um that one of the
harder the other hard thing I think for for younger people in our industry is um now everything is
fully remote I mean one of the things that I and I'm I'm a career like remote person except for
in the early days when I worked at an agency in New York City in person in an office yeah I sat next
to a few people who helped me take my hack HTML CSS skills and bring them to the professional level
because I can literally look over their shoulder and and we can talk about stuff um and like just
career development and stuff like that that's harder to come by when you're in this like remote
world uh but there's also more community online so I think that there's there's opportunities if
you look at it differently um but maybe going the corporate uh junior level developer route is
is I think it's it's it's probably harder to to find a job you're at more risk of layoffs um but
also like I think that you should be optimizing your career for learning and things that you can like
use as stepping stones to next thing don't optimize for making money like yeah you can get a junior
position over at google you're gonna you're gonna make a crazy salary and it's gonna be you can get
a nice car whatever you can get a nice apartment but that's not actually gonna really help you in
your career if you're in your 20s like this is the prime time to like launch a business launch a
partnership like do something you know I agree and I love what you said I feel like we must be
like we must be similar similar in age ranges because I will be 40 uh this next year we're not
gonna talk about that though but um but I agree because in my 20s I didn't dive into learning
to code till it was like 2006 2007 I did it in high school all the things right but um it was
more towards that like latter part right and so um we didn't have the resources like we just did
not have the things that exist today like there just wasn't exactly to your words take the risk
because there is just such a beautiful world around you where that risk is is such an opportune
place um I just so I just I want to double down on what you said because I just think it's really
powerful so if you are in that space and there are many junior devs that listen to the show go take
the risk right dive in go build something go try to build something um Brian's obviously a great
resource if if you need he's got a slew of awesome tools if you want to dive into to what he's building
um okay so let's get back to what you do in your day to day because you're doing some
really cool stuff and so I want to just speak to that a little bit more what is a normal day look
like for you um yeah it's it's it's uh I'm here in my office my my home office and uh we live in
Connecticut and um I am building stuff every day uh so I literally behind this browser window I have
cursor open I'm working on a project um let's see so right now the mix of of things that I
I'm spending time on in my week are running a few projects for clients I and I have a small team of
developers about three uh developers who work sort of like under my direction but I'm I'm very much
leading and designing and architecting these apps for clients yeah um that's like a part of my week
most of my time is spent building new products so right now I'm building instrumental dev which
is a components library for Ruby on Rails um and the the fun thing about that is that I'm building
it as a product that's going to be released pretty soon but me and my team use it it's like we are
customer number one for this it helps us build our Rails apps a lot like a lot faster um and so
that's been really cool because it's like I'm just trying to make it the perfect tool for for our own
use and then that should hopefully be useful to to others um like a byproduct of working on that
while I started to work on the docs for that I have also started to hack on what's going to be
our second product which is an editor for Rails so um think like a block editor or like a notion
style uh content editor um in in the Rails world there's a thing called tricks or or action text
which is sort of like um you know rich formatting text areas which are which are great that they'll
always have their purpose but I think in some cases like in the case of building a CMS or building a
docs website you need something more flexible and expansive so I'm building out the docs for
these components where I need like this paragraph's going to be some code this paragraph's going to be
text this is going to be a video this and I need to be able to rearrange any table of contents
so I started building that because there really isn't a good block editor in the Rails ecosystem
and it's it's pretty far along at this point it's like markdown friendly keyboard friendly
and so I'm still hacking on that that's that'll be like the that's coming in a few months but
I'm using it to build the docs for the first thing so that's what I'm mostly focused on when I'm not
actually building I'm doing this like on the microphone uh podcasting and uh and I'm trying
to do some youtube videos talking about the things I'm building as well yeah I saw that I was looking
at your youtube and I was like ooh there's some recent videos and then I also saw there's some
old videos so I plan on nerding out on some of those old videos you can see I went through like
fits and starts with it but I did just start working with a with an editor so now it's a lot
easier for me to just record yep send it over to him and he'll get it all published
they look great yeah I'm excited to dive in and watch him okay that's really cool so you know
that feels very much like a technical founder that's got their hands in a lot of code but you're
still sort of spending some time on some of those business things like like any good business leader
is um what that we you like to build in rails I'm trying to think of the other questions I like to
ask I feel like we really kind of went through most of them you even talked about how you get
unstuck which is one of the last questions I like to ask is how you get unstuck um and you
spoke to obviously how you could do that you know when you were in office versus now um is AI like
always your answer for getting you unstuck or do you feel like there are other paths or other
resources that you have to take in some cases to also get unstuck to be honest I like in terms of
getting stuck I use AI to get unstuck when it comes to code and sure sure um but that stuff
that's easy to get unstuck from like what we do as developers is we just get unstuck from code right
the thing that I get more stuck on is like the business side and uh that's that's a constant
evolution this business instrumental products is less than a year old so it's like still very much
like a toddler and and I'm trying to shape it in or I think of it more like a like a ball of clay
that I'm still sort of shaping like what what is it going to be are the services going to
going to sustain for a while am I going to morph it into more of a membership model with with some
fellow builders am I going to have this lineup of products like the components like I think it's
going to be a mix of all these things but I'm still figuring that out so in terms of like getting
unstuck from that I usually reach out to friends for advice I like to do in-person meetups I go to
like a group of us we go skiing and snowboarding um once a year next week um and talk business and
do some snowboarding um but like but honestly like podcasting has also been a massive uh unlock
for for me because like in in real life I'm a very introverted person like I'm really quiet in person
especially around groups and people that I that I don't know so well um I found that podcasting has been
uh a game like a game changer for growing my personal network um uh sadly I just wrapped up of the podcast
called Bootstrap Web we were doing that for over 10 years me and Jordan Gull
congratulations so we just did our final episode last week it was sort of just time for us both to
move on from that but um but I am starting up a new podcast right now uh with with uh Justin Jackson
uh we're calling it the panel and it's like the two of us plus a rotating panel of people
um so that's just like my way of like staying out there staying on the mic on a regular basis
uh and like between that and and YouTube um I it it's really really helpful for
again like being able to go to a conference or people like DMing me and stuff uh and kind of
like networking my way into relationships or partnerships or groups or opportunities that
I wouldn't have naturally networked my way into if I'm not out there podcasting you know yep well I
think you brought um a really good light to a lot of things that I mean my client's absolutely
experienced but I think other developers can definitely relate to is that you know we are
really good at certain things right we're really good at sort of this technical build out and understanding
these problems and just like you said getting unstuck through code is a natural thing for
developers to do but there's always this sort of and I don't want to say it's imposter syndrome
because I don't want to put that on you in labeling it but there's very much going on imposter like all
the time sure yeah there's like this imposter syndrome right around like networking and around
leading a business and starting a business and so I think this has been just a really beautiful
conversation of you sort of sharing all that right because it's you dove into that there isn't
there isn't necessarily yes it's scary but it can be done and so I think you found ways as an introvert
to actually find those opportunities and to go out and network because I know that
in tech we see a lot of developer relations we see a lot of developer advocates right
and folks are like oh they're public speaking and they're doing all these things and they seem so
extroverted but at the end of the day like they're probably very similar to you honestly
I'm realizing myself as well that like we do need to rest yeah for sure and I think especially in the
software dev world the even the people maybe even especially the people up on stage giving
giving talks the truth is most of these people actually are pretty introverted people
and I the way around that is one to sort of put yourself out there whether it's podcasting or social
media but the better way I think is to build stuff like build a thing that you are fired up about
that because that's a thing that you can just show like this is cool what do you think I find it useful
and like then that's something that people start to talk about I mean of course we see it all the
time like open source tools that start to to gain traction but it doesn't it could be a product it
could be a free it could be a paid it could be open source but like not everything you you spend time
on has to be a job or a freelance gig like just spend some time for yourself you're you're going
into it thinking like I might make no money from this I'm gonna spend some time and and build something
and and then that's the thing people aren't going to talk about you personally they're going to talk
about the things that you build so just go build stuff yes yes and it makes it a lot easier too
because when you go up on stage or when you go to present or speak to somebody it's it almost
can feel really intimidating depending on who that person is but if like you said if you've got that
project that you're passionate about that passion is going to speak instead of you right and so
that's what's going to be bright and shiny I love that I actually started the this live stream right
before Christmas because I knew that like so in my business I wasn't marketing and I know that
that's important because I market for my clients but for my own self it is really hard for me because
marketing especially to developers really requires you to actually step out and speak to those
developers and I just don't ever want to be that business leader where I'm out and I'm like
you should come check out my business you should come work with me you should come blah blah blah
blah like I'm just not a beggar kind but that's not necessarily how it works right it's just marketing
yeah I literally just wrote a blog post about this the other day because it's something I'm thinking
about for myself in 2025 which is like yeah of course I'm marketing my my business I have to do
things on the marketing side of things but like right I happened to think that most marketing
like just doesn't really work yeah what works is like creating something interesting that people
talk about yep maybe that is marketing maybe it's not but it but either way that's what works and so
if I could just spend more time creating new things that that I think I'm excited about that
hopefully other people are excited about like that tends to work out better if I look back at the last
15-20 years of building businesses every time I tried to do something like marketing like tactical
like and and it's not something that I was like creatively fired up about it usually fell flat
and it felt like a waste of time or money but the things that actually made it you know got some
traction were when I actually just created something so gotta do more yeah yeah agreed I agree honestly
um and actually I think from the show right it was it was my way of like I love hanging out with
developers we might act like we're introverted or we may actually be introverted right depending on
your persona but I think that developers introverted or not when you get developers with other
developers we're like wait a minute this introversion hat has disappeared and now I'm with my people
you know yeah so anyways the live stream has just been beautiful to just be able to talk to awesome
developers like you um who are building really super cool things and it has helped my own sort of
I'm supposedly extroverted I don't really believe it because I get drained by a lot of people time
if it's not developers if it's developers I can go all day every day um but this has really helped
sort of like invigorate my day in a way probably very similar to the podcast as for you of just
like getting out there having those conversations getting away from my dark little corner of
of working and just kind of getting out into the world so um yeah what's your new podcast called?
uh the panel so it's at panelpodcast.com we have a we have a trailer out now we're gonna start to
drop some episodes in February oh I love that okay well I'm sharing that in the chat
in the chat um we're kind of nearing our end of time here although I feel like I could pry and
talk to you for a really long time because you have a lot of insightful things to share
where can folks find you what can they dive into to check out your work and and see what you're up to
yeah let's see um these days I'm in terms of social platforms I'm most active actually on
Blue Sky now but I'm still on Twitter I'm not one of these people who are just leaving Twitter but
um yeah I'm on both uh Briancastle.com is my personal site and newsletter and everything else
is linked up from from those I love that instrumental products.com is the business I'm building right now
I am actually gonna put that in the chat really quickly because we did have some folks in the chat
and then I will put all of these in the show notes and go collect all these links for everyone
um any parting words before we uh end the stream no test so thanks for having me on this is this
is awesome and thank you folks for uh for hanging out in the chat uh this is really fun so you know
reach out anytime I I one of the things I love so much about our industry is how well connected we
are and just doing things and just sharing our work like this always always helpful yes of course
well I'm excited to dive in as I um whenever it is I take this venture down going to uh check out
Rails and and checking it out at least I have someone who's got some great resources for me to
dive in it's it's still kicking Rails Rails 8 is out and it's uh it's a great platform I love it
all right well I will see everyone tomorrow I hope that you all have a fabulous rest of your day