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Hello, hello. We are live again today with the 99 Dev Problem Show. Today I have Brian

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Castle with us, which is honestly a great joy because Brian attends a fellow business

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event that I absolutely love to attend and get a lot of value from. And so he's a speaker

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there. He has attended many years and just a really great human to know. So Brian, I'd

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love for you to introduce yourself.

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Yeah, Tessa, thanks for having me on. Great to connect with you as always. And yeah, I

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mean, these days I am a software product maker. And that comes in many forms, but I run a

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shop called Instrumental Products at InstrumentalProducts.com. And currently it's sort of a mix. We

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do some services. I've got a small team and myself, we work with clients and we build

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out their V1 MVP software products. But we're also working on a line of products for developers,

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especially aimed at people who are building their own products. I work a lot in the Ruby

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on Rails ecosystem, all of the products that I build and use and create are in Rails. And

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so right now I'm actually working on a Rails components product in that space. So yeah.

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Yeah, I love that. We'll definitely dive into that because I know people are going to want

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to hear about it. And like I'd shared in the pre notes or pre chatting, I've had a couple

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different Rails developers come on and they're so passionate about it and like their passion

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is contagious. And so they have me being like, okay, I think I need to learn Rails. Like

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I might need to dive into this with my like re-entering back into coding. So it's exciting

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to chat to another with another Rails Dev as well.

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I love Rails and I think most Rails Devs say something like that. Like they truly love

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it. And that's been the branding of Rails since day one, like going back like 20 years.

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Now Ruby, the programming language Ruby is sort of like intended for like developer happiness.

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If you that's kind of more fuzzy, but it's like reading Ruby code. And like literally

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it's it's that's what drew me into it in the beginning is it's it's easy to read and understand

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and and like just see like understand like logically like what am I reading here. It makes

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sense using like kind of human language. But then Ruby on Rails is sort of like the fast

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track to putting a product together. And that's what has always really attracted me to it.

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And that's why I think Rails is still today in 2025. In my opinion, one of the best tool

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sets or frameworks for rapidly building out and shipping a v1 product. It's used on huge

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sites as well. Like things like GitHub and stuff are built in Rails. But like, I think

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it's especially great for like bootstrapped entrepreneurs who are shipping a new product.

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Yeah, definitely. Which obviously is your your specialty, right is helping those bootstrapped

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businesses or founders be able to bring those apps together quickly, which I think is really

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creative and cool. The developers dream honestly most folks in the these interview sessions

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are like, Oh, if I could just build products and code all day, we talk about Legos and

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building products like Legos and how it's just this beautiful thing of stacking the

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Legos to create something magical. Well, that's me. I mean, I wish I could spend all my time

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doing that too. I'm trying to. Yeah, it is still a challenge for me, even like, you know,

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kind of balancing like I would love to have most days where I am just in quiet like building,

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designing, coding session mode. But you know, stuff to put together things like services

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and product high services or consulting to make sure I'm self funding and keeping the

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revenue flowing, you know. Yeah, absolutely for sure. Okay, so let's start sort of in

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the beginning of your developer career. I like to ask this question because we all come

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from different walks of life. But what is your developer or technical education if it's

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formal self taught, etc. Yeah, I feel like I took an uncommon sort of like winding path

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to where I am today. I mean, today, I am like a full stack designer and developer going

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back about 1520 years. I think I started my professional career about 1920 years ago as

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a front end developer like HTML and CSS was my literally like my first job at an agency

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just doing that. And so I was a front end guy for probably the first 10 years of my

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career. But during that time I also picked up WordPress that that's how I became very

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connected to the WordPress ecosystem. And front like HTML CSS and a lot of like just

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front end design stuff was my thing. And then I lean heavily on things like WordPress to

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build a little bit more dynamic stuff, whether it's just a CMS or like I actually have like

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a SAS built on WordPress with restaurant engine. But then it wasn't like sort of fast forward

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to 2018 is when I sort of got frustrated with my limitations as just a front end person.

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And I spent the whole year of 2018 learning how to transition to being a full stack being

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able to actually build and ship a SAS product myself. And I dabbled in in Larval a little

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bit and looked at different options. But I landed on rails like I said, because it was

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the most attractive and simplest and easiest for me to not only learn but like I found

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that like I was able to actually build something. You know, the fastest with that. So I spent

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the year in 18 like taking courses and I worked with some coaches and I did some practice

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projects. And then by 2019 I was actually able to start to build like my own products

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with rails and then just you know, continuing on since then doing multiple products, learning

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and just getting stronger and stronger with that with that stack, if you will. And I'm

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always still learning today and then there, you know, so sometimes I look I look back

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on my career of how I got here. There are a lot of career developers who have like a

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CS degree, which I don't. Or they or they learned more of the back end side like earlier

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in their career, whereas I came around to it much later. And I sort of regret that,

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you know, like I don't have like the under the underpinning of like computer science

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or like back end database stuff that that all came later. So I still feel like a little

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bit of a of a new even though I'm pretty fast and efficient with it today. But yeah, that's

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that's where I am. I love that. I think to just speak to the last thing that you said

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in terms of like being a new I really feel like no matter your level of experience, no

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matter the number of roles that you play, no matter what those roles look like and where

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they're at, I think we all can just feel like a new sometimes like I so resonated with that

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story that you shared because that's where I started. I don't have a computer science

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degree either. tried to go to college. It just wasn't my thing. So I started out as a front

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end dev as well. Same exact path really focused in that front end. Then I got into Jumla

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like Drupal WordPress, dove into the sequel some of the PHP, right, but still never felt

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like I had all of that foundation. And when you shifted over to diving into more of that

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full stack career, I should shifted into developer relations. And so I feel the same way and

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that I feel like I wish that I would have invested more in those earlier days to actually

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be full stack back then but it is what I think about that a lot like I that's a big regret

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of mine is like 2018 I was already over 10 years into being self employed, right? And

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like probably 1415 years into like my career. And I remember going like going back to like

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in 2008 and 2007 when I was employed at an agency like I felt like I was just a designer

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and a front end person. And the back end stuff was some sort of magic wizardry, not, you

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know, capable of doing. And that was like my mindset for like over 10 years, you know,

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I actually like learned it and it's actually not that difficult to it's it's challenging

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but like just like anything else, you just give it some time and you'll figure it out.

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Yep. Yep. Yeah, exact. Same the same thing, right? It's the regret of not doing it when

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the opportunity may have been there so that you were just a little bit further ahead.

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Hello to those in the chat. Nick is a regular great to see you Nick who will also be on

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the show next week which is great. Jeff says I don't have a CS degree and I feel the same

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way a lot of times but we can all learn to do what needs to be done as long as there

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is support fully agree and honestly like that's how developers are right that's why we see

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so many open source projects. That's why we see these different opportunities like Brian

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I think that's really sort of the essence of your business right is like we as developers

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really enjoy building stuff and we really enjoy helping other people and so how do we

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get to all build stuff and make the world a better place with our fellow developers?

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Yeah, I mean and I don't know if you wanted to get into this today but like the AI situation

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let's do it. Let's do it. Our world is like I'm so fascinated by it and I'm also trying

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to like figure out where things are going. I'm absolutely leaning on AI a lot. I use

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cursor every day and it's completely changed the way that I build and ship stuff and I

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think back to 2018 when I was learning Rails which was you know a few years before the

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AI wave and man I would have like learned 20 times faster if I had chat GBT by my side

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back then. So but today I'm finding that like getting to work with AI in my building and

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coding workflow is actually making me even more ambitious about the kind of products

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that I can build. You know because it's like literally it not only like speeds up the number

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of lines that I can build that I can write per minute but it's also like I'm taking on

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projects and product ideas that maybe last year the year before I would have been like

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that might be a good idea but I just know how big of a lift that is to build but now

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that I know that I have AI in the tool belt I know that I can sort of get through that

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lift a lot faster whether that's like breaking through like roadblocks a lot easier because

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I have I can troubleshoot easier with AI or just having it build out parts you know that's

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been a big one. So so I'm like sort of really interested right now to learn how not only

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developers are using AI but and then we're also seeing like non developers start to build

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software apps using AI and and how that they interact with it and then what does it mean

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for us like for people who not only make a career as software developers but also like

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people who make a career offering software products when people can just build their

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own product are they still going to buy SaaS products like so many open questions right

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now. Yes, yes, I agree. So follow up question to you using cursor or sort of chat GPT you

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said you use cursor every day. Would you say if you had to like throw a percentage at how

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how much do you think that it has saved you time like I've heard like 20% productivity

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improvement like that type of number would you do you have an estimate? It's hard to

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think about that. I do. I just know that I'm so much faster in general. I think that I

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think it's I mean I know the pathway to building something a lot faster whereas like a few

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years ago I would have been spending more time figuring out like okay I did this part

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now what do I need to work on next to get to get. Now I sort of know what that roadmap

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is a lot faster and that's that's more just like experience of building a lot of stuff

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over time. Sure. But then in terms of like cursor and just using AI in general the thing

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where I really noticed the speed increase is when I get stuck. I mean in 2018, 2019,

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even 2020 if I got stuck on a technical problem I would literally spend a week maybe maybe

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two weeks just banging my head against the desk until I figure it out and I'm googling

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like crazy and I'm or I'm pulling in friends to help me figure this out like I'm just stuck

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and it's like glue I cannot make progress on this product it would take me sometimes

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a week or two or more. Now but now it's like 10 minutes like you know because it's like

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I could it's just about asking all right like all right I'm a little stuck here let me throw

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it into the into the prompt and see what comes back with AI and then it's not going to give

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me the right answer right away but it'll send me down a path that like within 10 or 20 minutes

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now I'm unblocked and I can keep going and like that's a massive speed increase. Yeah.

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That's almost something that you can't really measure. I mean you can have an approximation

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right if you were a week, two weeks sometimes stuck on something having to likely pivot

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or work on something else or bring other people in right then I mean that's huge so for you

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it's not necessarily like a 20% or a 30% it's like a could be days and weeks helping you

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get unblocked. That's the big one is like getting unblocked. That's that's where I see

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the massive speed boost I mean I do also do things where like it yeah it completes my

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lines of code that's a little bit faster sometimes like if the more like grunt work if you will

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I'll be on AI so like all right I just need a controller I need to build out a maller

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for this for this piece of the app just like give it to me so that I can like one click

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put it in and then I'll finalize it you know instead of me like writing all the lines like

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that's that makes it a little bit faster too. Yeah yeah that's awesome. Jeff with his good

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commentary in here just shared is it it is really good at debugging things too that takes

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a lot of time out of the process which I think is also really helpful. I'm not writing a

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ton of code in my day to day honestly don't write hardly any code but I still get stuck

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in different ways as I'm working with clients and as I'm diving into different things because

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I'm still looking at code and reviewing developer experience and trying to understand this getting

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started guide do what it needs to actually do. And so I agree that it is really really

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helpful for that I've been able to even just pop in some of the like different pieces of

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docs and being like what would you change and it actually will give me a completely different

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version I'm like oh that's that's great and it's not necessarily like that I can't think

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of those things and I am per se stuck but it's nice to get sort of a different insight

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into the things that I'm working on and I've I've found a lot of value there too. Looks

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like RJ jumped in it's really helpful in writing queries and helping to write test cases as

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well. Yeah I heard testing is really really really good which could be a really beautiful

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time saver you know when you're looking to get all of that set up. For sure yeah. I think

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the the consensus of AI you know from different guests that I've talked to you in different

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developer events to just kind of you know share a little bit more sentiment with you

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as we had a good conversation around which developers we feel like would find more success

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from AI right like is it going to be like the early stage that junior developers who

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are new in their career is going to be sort of that mid stage or sort of that senior.

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I felt like it was going to be very helpful for sort of that mid stage I think it also

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will help juniors but if we're talking about most the greatest impact right. I felt like

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when you're using AI you have to be able to push back so if you are a junior and you don't

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necessarily understand the connectivity of a database right or how that comes together

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then you don't know how to push back which is an issue I had with it. I'm like hey you

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don't even have my like database credentials you're missing database credentials right

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and so I was able to say that and then be like oh yes you are. I think the middle stage

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right is going to get the greatest impact because they they know enough to ask the right questions

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while they're still in there like writing a ton of code. If you had to sort of compare

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career path early, mid, later stage what's maybe your hypothesis of developers you think

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get the greatest impact. I mean I'm pretty out of touch with like junior developers

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at large companies I just don't know what that whole world even looks like so it's hard for

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me to really speak to that. I can only assume that it might be kind of rough out there for those

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folks. It is. But my thought on it because I have come across some some very experienced

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career software developers who are pretty resistant to using AI in their workflow

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and I don't really agree with that approach. Everyone has different goals and what they're

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working on but like especially if you're working on products I happen to think that

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that if you if you are a full stack developer before AI you know if you were if you had the

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product shops before AI came along now that AI is here I think that I think that we as full

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stack people have like a 10x or 50x advantage in using AI in our work over the the non-coder

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who is using AI to build stuff. Like I think that a non-technical person it's incredible what a

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non-technical person can actually build now with the help of AI without needing to learn how to code

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but I feel like that can only take them to like 20% of what we are capable of of doing because

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I actually use it more like I'm working with a junior developer sitting next to me but that person's

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AI so like I'm instructing it to like you know build out this part of it and or or look at this

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and and make these fixes or what you just gave me is not quite right just fix it in these ways so

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like I'm sort of like training it like like it's a junior developer who's like carrying out my vision

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for what I what it is that I want to build and so that's where having like like product experience

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it's really helps you know that's so I would probably think that like AI probably favors the

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mid to to more senior level developers I don't know what role in like an organization that would

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really look like but just sure like having having experience is a is a multiplier with AI it's not

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like it's like I don't think that we should think of it as a threat to replacing us I kind of think

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that like the junior people are a little bit more at a threat than than the mid and senior people are

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you know sure yeah which is unfortunate because gosh junior people are like just at a threat right

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now generally like a lot of the code schools at boot camps that we're seeing are shutting down

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like Minneapolis had a really great one for a number of years that actually top rails as well

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and that one you know is shutting down and I think that's it's just really unfortunate so to be a

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junior dev today is a very very difficult place to be unfortunately it is but you know what I'll say

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to the junior folks and this is like you know someone in their 40s talking to somebody like 10

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20 years younger than me um uh I think that now is such a perfect time to just go out and build

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something and take way more risks you know yeah uh I mean you're at such a huge advantage to those

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of us who were trying to take risks in our 20s 20 years ago um look the the world and our parents

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and everyone are going to be harping on like you need job security you need this and that but you

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know what in your 20s just go for it you have so much time to figure it out and now you have all

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the tools so even if you don't um even if you don't have full coding skills you do have AI there's

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boot camp there's thousands of boot camps in the world that you can get into um that one of the

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harder the other hard thing I think for for younger people in our industry is um now everything is

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fully remote I mean one of the things that I and I'm I'm a career like remote person except for

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in the early days when I worked at an agency in New York City in person in an office yeah I sat next

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to a few people who helped me take my hack HTML CSS skills and bring them to the professional level

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because I can literally look over their shoulder and and we can talk about stuff um and like just

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career development and stuff like that that's harder to come by when you're in this like remote

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world uh but there's also more community online so I think that there's there's opportunities if

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you look at it differently um but maybe going the corporate uh junior level developer route is

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is I think it's it's it's probably harder to to find a job you're at more risk of layoffs um but

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also like I think that you should be optimizing your career for learning and things that you can like

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use as stepping stones to next thing don't optimize for making money like yeah you can get a junior

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position over at google you're gonna you're gonna make a crazy salary and it's gonna be you can get

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a nice car whatever you can get a nice apartment but that's not actually gonna really help you in

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your career if you're in your 20s like this is the prime time to like launch a business launch a

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partnership like do something you know I agree and I love what you said I feel like we must be

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like we must be similar similar in age ranges because I will be 40 uh this next year we're not

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gonna talk about that though but um but I agree because in my 20s I didn't dive into learning

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to code till it was like 2006 2007 I did it in high school all the things right but um it was

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more towards that like latter part right and so um we didn't have the resources like we just did

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not have the things that exist today like there just wasn't exactly to your words take the risk

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because there is just such a beautiful world around you where that risk is is such an opportune

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place um I just so I just I want to double down on what you said because I just think it's really

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powerful so if you are in that space and there are many junior devs that listen to the show go take

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the risk right dive in go build something go try to build something um Brian's obviously a great

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resource if if you need he's got a slew of awesome tools if you want to dive into to what he's building

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um okay so let's get back to what you do in your day to day because you're doing some

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really cool stuff and so I want to just speak to that a little bit more what is a normal day look

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like for you um yeah it's it's it's uh I'm here in my office my my home office and uh we live in

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Connecticut and um I am building stuff every day uh so I literally behind this browser window I have

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cursor open I'm working on a project um let's see so right now the mix of of things that I

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I'm spending time on in my week are running a few projects for clients I and I have a small team of

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developers about three uh developers who work sort of like under my direction but I'm I'm very much

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leading and designing and architecting these apps for clients yeah um that's like a part of my week

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most of my time is spent building new products so right now I'm building instrumental dev which

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is a components library for Ruby on Rails um and the the fun thing about that is that I'm building

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it as a product that's going to be released pretty soon but me and my team use it it's like we are

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customer number one for this it helps us build our Rails apps a lot like a lot faster um and so

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that's been really cool because it's like I'm just trying to make it the perfect tool for for our own

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use and then that should hopefully be useful to to others um like a byproduct of working on that

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while I started to work on the docs for that I have also started to hack on what's going to be

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our second product which is an editor for Rails so um think like a block editor or like a notion

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style uh content editor um in in the Rails world there's a thing called tricks or or action text

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which is sort of like um you know rich formatting text areas which are which are great that they'll

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always have their purpose but I think in some cases like in the case of building a CMS or building a

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docs website you need something more flexible and expansive so I'm building out the docs for

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these components where I need like this paragraph's going to be some code this paragraph's going to be

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text this is going to be a video this and I need to be able to rearrange any table of contents

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so I started building that because there really isn't a good block editor in the Rails ecosystem

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and it's it's pretty far along at this point it's like markdown friendly keyboard friendly

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and so I'm still hacking on that that's that'll be like the that's coming in a few months but

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I'm using it to build the docs for the first thing so that's what I'm mostly focused on when I'm not

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actually building I'm doing this like on the microphone uh podcasting and uh and I'm trying

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to do some youtube videos talking about the things I'm building as well yeah I saw that I was looking

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at your youtube and I was like ooh there's some recent videos and then I also saw there's some

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old videos so I plan on nerding out on some of those old videos you can see I went through like

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fits and starts with it but I did just start working with a with an editor so now it's a lot

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easier for me to just record yep send it over to him and he'll get it all published

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they look great yeah I'm excited to dive in and watch him okay that's really cool so you know

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that feels very much like a technical founder that's got their hands in a lot of code but you're

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still sort of spending some time on some of those business things like like any good business leader

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is um what that we you like to build in rails I'm trying to think of the other questions I like to

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ask I feel like we really kind of went through most of them you even talked about how you get

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unstuck which is one of the last questions I like to ask is how you get unstuck um and you

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spoke to obviously how you could do that you know when you were in office versus now um is AI like

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always your answer for getting you unstuck or do you feel like there are other paths or other

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resources that you have to take in some cases to also get unstuck to be honest I like in terms of

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getting stuck I use AI to get unstuck when it comes to code and sure sure um but that stuff

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that's easy to get unstuck from like what we do as developers is we just get unstuck from code right

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the thing that I get more stuck on is like the business side and uh that's that's a constant

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evolution this business instrumental products is less than a year old so it's like still very much

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like a toddler and and I'm trying to shape it in or I think of it more like a like a ball of clay

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that I'm still sort of shaping like what what is it going to be are the services going to

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going to sustain for a while am I going to morph it into more of a membership model with with some

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fellow builders am I going to have this lineup of products like the components like I think it's

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going to be a mix of all these things but I'm still figuring that out so in terms of like getting

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unstuck from that I usually reach out to friends for advice I like to do in-person meetups I go to

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like a group of us we go skiing and snowboarding um once a year next week um and talk business and

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do some snowboarding um but like but honestly like podcasting has also been a massive uh unlock

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for for me because like in in real life I'm a very introverted person like I'm really quiet in person

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especially around groups and people that I that I don't know so well um I found that podcasting has been

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uh a game like a game changer for growing my personal network um uh sadly I just wrapped up of the podcast

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called Bootstrap Web we were doing that for over 10 years me and Jordan Gull

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congratulations so we just did our final episode last week it was sort of just time for us both to

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move on from that but um but I am starting up a new podcast right now uh with with uh Justin Jackson

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uh we're calling it the panel and it's like the two of us plus a rotating panel of people

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um so that's just like my way of like staying out there staying on the mic on a regular basis

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uh and like between that and and YouTube um I it it's really really helpful for

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again like being able to go to a conference or people like DMing me and stuff uh and kind of

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like networking my way into relationships or partnerships or groups or opportunities that

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I wouldn't have naturally networked my way into if I'm not out there podcasting you know yep well I

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think you brought um a really good light to a lot of things that I mean my client's absolutely

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experienced but I think other developers can definitely relate to is that you know we are

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really good at certain things right we're really good at sort of this technical build out and understanding

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these problems and just like you said getting unstuck through code is a natural thing for

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developers to do but there's always this sort of and I don't want to say it's imposter syndrome

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because I don't want to put that on you in labeling it but there's very much going on imposter like all

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the time sure yeah there's like this imposter syndrome right around like networking and around

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leading a business and starting a business and so I think this has been just a really beautiful

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conversation of you sort of sharing all that right because it's you dove into that there isn't

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there isn't necessarily yes it's scary but it can be done and so I think you found ways as an introvert

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to actually find those opportunities and to go out and network because I know that

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in tech we see a lot of developer relations we see a lot of developer advocates right

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and folks are like oh they're public speaking and they're doing all these things and they seem so

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extroverted but at the end of the day like they're probably very similar to you honestly

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I'm realizing myself as well that like we do need to rest yeah for sure and I think especially in the

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software dev world the even the people maybe even especially the people up on stage giving

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giving talks the truth is most of these people actually are pretty introverted people

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and I the way around that is one to sort of put yourself out there whether it's podcasting or social

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media but the better way I think is to build stuff like build a thing that you are fired up about

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that because that's a thing that you can just show like this is cool what do you think I find it useful

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and like then that's something that people start to talk about I mean of course we see it all the

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time like open source tools that start to to gain traction but it doesn't it could be a product it

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could be a free it could be a paid it could be open source but like not everything you you spend time

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on has to be a job or a freelance gig like just spend some time for yourself you're you're going

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into it thinking like I might make no money from this I'm gonna spend some time and and build something

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and and then that's the thing people aren't going to talk about you personally they're going to talk

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about the things that you build so just go build stuff yes yes and it makes it a lot easier too

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because when you go up on stage or when you go to present or speak to somebody it's it almost

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can feel really intimidating depending on who that person is but if like you said if you've got that

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project that you're passionate about that passion is going to speak instead of you right and so

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that's what's going to be bright and shiny I love that I actually started the this live stream right

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before Christmas because I knew that like so in my business I wasn't marketing and I know that

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that's important because I market for my clients but for my own self it is really hard for me because

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marketing especially to developers really requires you to actually step out and speak to those

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developers and I just don't ever want to be that business leader where I'm out and I'm like

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you should come check out my business you should come work with me you should come blah blah blah

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blah like I'm just not a beggar kind but that's not necessarily how it works right it's just marketing

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yeah I literally just wrote a blog post about this the other day because it's something I'm thinking

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about for myself in 2025 which is like yeah of course I'm marketing my my business I have to do

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things on the marketing side of things but like right I happened to think that most marketing

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like just doesn't really work yeah what works is like creating something interesting that people

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talk about yep maybe that is marketing maybe it's not but it but either way that's what works and so

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if I could just spend more time creating new things that that I think I'm excited about that

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hopefully other people are excited about like that tends to work out better if I look back at the last

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15-20 years of building businesses every time I tried to do something like marketing like tactical

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like and and it's not something that I was like creatively fired up about it usually fell flat

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and it felt like a waste of time or money but the things that actually made it you know got some

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traction were when I actually just created something so gotta do more yeah yeah agreed I agree honestly

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um and actually I think from the show right it was it was my way of like I love hanging out with

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developers we might act like we're introverted or we may actually be introverted right depending on

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your persona but I think that developers introverted or not when you get developers with other

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developers we're like wait a minute this introversion hat has disappeared and now I'm with my people

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you know yeah so anyways the live stream has just been beautiful to just be able to talk to awesome

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developers like you um who are building really super cool things and it has helped my own sort of

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I'm supposedly extroverted I don't really believe it because I get drained by a lot of people time

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if it's not developers if it's developers I can go all day every day um but this has really helped

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sort of like invigorate my day in a way probably very similar to the podcast as for you of just

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like getting out there having those conversations getting away from my dark little corner of

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of working and just kind of getting out into the world so um yeah what's your new podcast called?

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uh the panel so it's at panelpodcast.com we have a we have a trailer out now we're gonna start to

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drop some episodes in February oh I love that okay well I'm sharing that in the chat

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in the chat um we're kind of nearing our end of time here although I feel like I could pry and

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talk to you for a really long time because you have a lot of insightful things to share

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where can folks find you what can they dive into to check out your work and and see what you're up to

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yeah let's see um these days I'm in terms of social platforms I'm most active actually on

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Blue Sky now but I'm still on Twitter I'm not one of these people who are just leaving Twitter but

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um yeah I'm on both uh Briancastle.com is my personal site and newsletter and everything else

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is linked up from from those I love that instrumental products.com is the business I'm building right now

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I am actually gonna put that in the chat really quickly because we did have some folks in the chat

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and then I will put all of these in the show notes and go collect all these links for everyone

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um any parting words before we uh end the stream no test so thanks for having me on this is this

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is awesome and thank you folks for uh for hanging out in the chat uh this is really fun so you know

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reach out anytime I I one of the things I love so much about our industry is how well connected we

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are and just doing things and just sharing our work like this always always helpful yes of course

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well I'm excited to dive in as I um whenever it is I take this venture down going to uh check out

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Rails and and checking it out at least I have someone who's got some great resources for me to

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dive in it's it's still kicking Rails Rails 8 is out and it's uh it's a great platform I love it

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all right well I will see everyone tomorrow I hope that you all have a fabulous rest of your day