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Hey, hey everyone. Tessa here with the 99 Dev Problems show with my dear friend Carl Alexander.

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Carl, why don't you introduce yourself?

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Hi, I'm Carl. I have a wonderful Carl board behind me. That's like a whole...

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He's there to creep out people and zoom calls with clients.

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I don't even know how to describe my side of this board, but basically, since this is a dev thing, I'm a programmer.

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I started programming when I was 41. I started programming when I was like 6.

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So I've been doing different things.

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I did logo. I don't know if you know logo. It was like logo writer. It was like an Apple thing. It was a little turtle.

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Oh no.

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You could draw and stuff like that. I think it was 8 or 10. I was in the news because I did a robotics thing that was controlled by the computer.

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There was an animation and it would basically run the animation and then control motors.

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So one year I had a Ferris wheel. Another year I had... The more complicated one was I had...

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What do you call those things? Sorry, my first language was not English at FlyEye.

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You know those... They float above the water. There's the hydro...

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Like a hoverboard?

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Yeah, but it's the actual ship.

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Like the water kind.

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Yeah, they have fans underneath and then they lift. So you have two fans controlling the thing.

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So I had two fans controlled by motor in a pool.

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Yeah, it was cool. It was cool.

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But yeah, that was all logo. Then I did basic.

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So you're just like a true nerd.

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I'm a true nerd. I'm a true true to the bone nerd basically.

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But I always loved programming. I've done teaching. I've done writing books. I would compare it to Legos.

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Yes!

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Programming to me is Legos basically. It's like Legos with code. You're like, oh, what do you feel like building today?

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Okay, cool. And then you can make it a reality. I'm like, what's not to love about that?

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I mean, that comes back to what we were talking when we just went live basically. You want to go back to that?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, well, let's dive into that. One quick thing I like to ask first hand.

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Let's address the Lego comment first off. I don't know if you noticed, but it's in my logo.

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And so my Friday guest, which was Noah Harris, also talked about how building as a developer is like Lego.

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So you two should hang out because you obviously love programming and Legos just the same.

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Oh my God. I have so many programming things that I would love to hang out with program.

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I just want to hang out with programmers all the time, right?

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Yes!

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That's why you're in DevRel, right? You're just like, I mean, we can talk about that too.

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Like that's why I built a product for developers because they're my people.

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And I just want to build a product for my people.

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So again, we're going to talk for a while.

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We will be here.

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Yeah. So yeah, I noticed that your thing was Legos. I love it.

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Yes, because that's what it is, right?

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And so the essence of my brand, and then I'm going to ask you about your developer education is what we're going to get into.

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The essence of my brand is that, right? Is that at the end of the day, I've been in DevRel and I've built four developers.

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I don't necessarily build code for developers now, right? I build programs. I build communities.

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I build experiences, right? I build this stuff that developers want.

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And so I very much wanted that same essence. So I really appreciate that you see that because that's so important.

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So, okay, if you were programming as a young child and doing some very cool, cool, cool things,

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did you actually go to school for anything related to technology? Do you have a college degree?

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Yes. So I have, I mean, you've seen my jacket, right? Should I go get it?

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I don't know if I've seen it. I want to go get it.

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Carl's great, y'all. Also, I think he tripped on the way out because he made a little noise.

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The energy that developers have when it comes to hanging out with developers is like really legit.

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Okay. So yes, I have seen that.

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So this is my Queens, Queens University in Canada. It's my applied science jacket.

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It's the most priceless that I ever owned that I own. So yeah, so that's, so I love that you think that way.

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So I did do college. I did computer engineering in the early 2000s. So I graduated in 06.

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Cool. And back then, there wasn't like computer like software engineering, like the way that there is now.

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So basically the way it worked was that you went into computer engineering and then you could choose an option.

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You could choose software option or electrical option.

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And basically computer engineering was kind of sitting in this weird area between electrical engineering and computer science.

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And basically they would steer you. You want to do a bit more computer science or you want to do a bit more electrical.

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So I have friends that did that and they work more with telecoms now.

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Yes.

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Like I have a friend in New Brunswick and he works with antennas basically.

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Like telecom antennas and another friend that ended up at Nortel like doing like switches and stuff like that.

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So yeah, but you didn't have like, so I just did the software option.

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But before that, I just did like my high school had a computer, a couple of computer courses, but it was just like basic HTML.

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So they didn't have like 3D. I don't know what the software was called, but they had like 3D modeling.

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So I got into that too.

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Like 3D stuff like I did an N64 logo again, bona fide nerd here.

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So like where it's at though.

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N64 logo rotating.

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So yes.

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But ended I ended up graduating and then I didn't even do computer science stuff when I graduated.

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I might have told you that story. I worked for a law firm. I graduated and I just started basically working as like level two tech support in a law firm.

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That's because I had been doing a lot of system in work.

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Right.

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I didn't do a long time. I've been assistant men since I'm about 16. Like I had like,

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those servers switches in my house like I before when router is like, you know, the thing that comes with your modem now for free used to cost like 400 bucks and I was just like, Oh, I can use a computer from work.

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That they're throwing out and just like do all the networking myself. So I just did all of that so.

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Heck yes.

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But I went back to work for them.

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And, cause I didn't know what to do.

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Like, nobody, it's like the catch 22 of like,

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you graduate, how'd you get experience, all that stuff.

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And they offered me a job.

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Like I was in Greece, I was backpacking

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and they were like, you wanna work?

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And I was just like, sure.

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And I started working there.

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And I was doing cis and men stuff for them.

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So I was higher up.

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But then I started building tools for them.

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Oh.

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So I was like, so I, cause they wanted to do stuff.

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And I was just like, oh, well, I love programming.

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Let me just like, start do some.net.

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Like, and I started working with the SDKs,

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the Microsoft SDKs to like, just build tools for them.

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Like, like little UI applications.

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Yep, totally.

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Like, like,

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efficiency to their day.

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Yeah, but I mean, that's like where I got into like,

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I just like building tools for depth for people.

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Like basically, you know, like,

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that's what my little side business is.

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And it's, and I just, you know,

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I kind of liked it.

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And then I got bored there.

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That's the story of my life.

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Like I get bored.

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I can relate to that.

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The ADHD side, basically.

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And I got bored and I was like, that's 2008.

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So like that, I literally quit when the crash happened.

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And then I was like, okay, how am I gonna get a job?

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So I tried applying for jobs.

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Even if I coded all this life,

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I've never successfully passed a coding exam.

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Those are really weird and tricky though.

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So I've literally never, like I would ace.

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I mean, you can see I'm pretty outgoing.

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And like, I'm like one of the few,

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like I'm a rare nerd that somehow manage social skills.

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So like, so I would kill the in-person interviews.

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And they're like, we love you.

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We just need to make you pass a quick programming exam

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to just like see everything.

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And I was like, oh, I'll see you never basically.

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And...

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Why do you think that is?

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Like, do you think it was because like,

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the way that they tested you or just...

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Cause it's not relevant.

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It's just not relevant.

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I'm super against like, when I did hiring later on,

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like I just never passed anybody a programming exam.

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I just don't think it's relevant.

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I mean, we see it back and forth.

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Look, hiring is hard.

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Like... It is, it really is.

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Like, it's really hard.

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I fully grasped how hard, you know,

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like I listened to a couple of podcasts,

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like it was Adam Wattan that he was like,

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he got thousands of applications

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and then they just ended up hiring somebody they knew.

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And I was like, yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

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That's why like, I think networking is really the best way

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to get hired because honestly,

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but it was just not in my brain.

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Like I was just like, I don't need to memorize like...

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What's an interface or like how to explain that?

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Like I was straight out of school.

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Like I was doing this like, like I knew how to program,

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but I just didn't know conceptually everything.

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And I didn't remember at all.

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And I was just like, this is dumb and I just wouldn't do it.

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But I really wanted to build tools.

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Like I applied because I'm from Montreal.

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So for all the video game lovers,

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like there's a lot of video game studios.

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Like it's like the Mecca.

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So like I had applied to Ubisoft to be a tools dev basically

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to build tools for the developers.

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Cause I was just like, I love building tools.

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Like that's what I wanted to do.

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Like I just wanted to build stuff for devs even back then.

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And but yeah, I just couldn't pass a programming exam.

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And then the first place that didn't pass me a programming

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exam, I got the job basically.

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And that's like when I got into WordPress,

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like I literally built their entire PHP division

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and everything and you know, they were super happy.

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But yeah, they didn't, they didn't pass me a programming test.

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And they were like, I was applying for a.NET job.

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And then they were like, oh, well actually we're trying

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to do this thing with WordPress.

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Do you know anything about it?

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And I'm like, no, but I can figure it out.

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And the rest is history.

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But yeah, it was hard.

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Like it was just, it's a weird journey.

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Like it was just a weird journey to like get programming jobs.

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Like I was just, yeah, it was just not what I was aiming for.

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I mean, that's like kind of the career,

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my career trajectory is like, it's always goes back

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to programming.

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Cause I remember like, we, that's to,

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we're looping back to what we wanted to talk about.

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But it's kind of funny, but basically I did the

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sysadmin stuff.

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I built tools.

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I'm like, oh wait, I love programming.

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Why am I not doing that?

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Then I got hired to do the WordPress,

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the PHP stuff.

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And then like I was talking about like,

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before the show started.

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Which is where we met.

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Yeah, which is where we met.

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But back then, like we were talking about,

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there was no career track for engineering.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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I had applied to like my Pat at the time,

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I was joked there's an alternative universe

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where I succeeded, but like I had applied to Harvard

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to do, to do MBA.

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You knew me both.

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Like I had applied to Harvard to do MBA, Harvard, MIT.

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Like I had a really good GMAT.

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I was just like, okay, well, I'll just get into

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like management consulting or like go to McKinsey

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or Bain or whatever.

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Like that's, what else am I going to do?

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Like, you know, like, but I wrote all these essays.

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And then I just realized like,

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when I like managing people and I wanted to build

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my own company, but also like, I just,

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I just prefer coding.

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Like I think managing people is the hardest thing

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I've ever did, but I just like coding.

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Yeah.

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I just like coding and I wanted to code.

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And I just decided I was going to try to build a business

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where I'm still trying, you know, 12 years later,

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but basically I just wanted to code.

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And I think that's what it just comes back to with me

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is I just always want to code.

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Yeah.

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And I want to be involved with code.

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Like, which is great now because like, I've, you know,

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I'm so out of it, like for the,

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even for the engineering management track,

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like I know all these titles now.

240
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,040
I had to look it up because like,

241
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,520
I was dealing with a potential acquisition

242
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,080
and I was just like, what title would I give myself?

243
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,840
You know, like, I don't even know where I sit with that.

244
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,360
And I fell in like principal engineer

245
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,240
or something like that.

246
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,200
Like, you know, something, I think you're supposed to be

247
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,840
like basically expert in multiple fields.

248
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,360
And then you do a lot of mentoring.

249
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,800
Like I like teaching devs.

250
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,200
I like devs.

251
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,120
So it's like.

252
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,320
Distinguished.

253
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:55,280
That's the one I want.

254
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,000
Cause that's the absolute top level.

255
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:57,840
Yeah.

256
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:58,680
Distinguished.

257
00:13:58,680 --> 00:13:59,520
I mean, yeah.

258
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:00,360
Yeah.

259
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,640
But just like in terms of what the tasks was

260
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,800
and that we talked about it when we were in Portland

261
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,120
actually, because I started doing a bit of consulting

262
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,200
around that like fractional engineering leadership.

263
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,880
I was like, where can't be us in Portland?

264
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:13,720
Where can't, yeah.

265
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,080
Where can't be us in Portland?

266
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,760
And I didn't know there was a need for that.

267
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,440
And there's kind of a bit of a need.

268
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,080
Like it's like, you know,

269
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,920
engineering and leadership is, is interesting

270
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,200
because like a lot of times like we talked,

271
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,520
like a lot of these smaller shops,

272
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,800
it's their leader guide that gets promoted.

273
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,440
It's exactly my problem, right?

274
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,720
It's those people that become the CTO and stuff.

275
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:36,560
And then they don't have time

276
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,040
to do the actual engineering leadership,

277
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,920
but they don't have enough.

278
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,880
It's not big enough for them to do it,

279
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,680
have somebody full time do it.

280
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800
So, yeah, there's a bit of a space for that,

281
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,240
but I do enjoy that.

282
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,240
But yeah, it's like, it's weird for like the career path.

283
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,520
Like I just, I'm always trying to figure it out on my own

284
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,520
because it was just never that simple when I started off.

285
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,600
Like it was just like, nobody had to ask these questions.

286
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,200
Google was still relatively new, like, you know,

287
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,960
and they're kind of like the forefront

288
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,960
of like having that kind of engineering track internally.

289
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,520
So it was a really weird time.

290
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,440
Like, and yeah, it was just, but it always goes back

291
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:23,280
to coding for me.

292
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:24,360
Like I like developers.

293
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,480
It's the same thing as you.

294
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,680
I love developers.

295
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,120
I want us, I built a product for developers.

296
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,080
I love developer.

297
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,240
I want to make your life easier.

298
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,600
I want to make my life easier.

299
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,400
And it's easier to empathize, right?

300
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,920
When you're all the time.

301
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:41,760
Sorry.

302
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,600
No, go ahead.

303
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,440
Not to cut you off.

304
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,120
I was going to say, I think like, it's been so interesting.

305
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,720
And I think like doing this show was like a big trigger

306
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,720
into spending time with developers,

307
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,920
but in a way that obviously can help me market my business.

308
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:53,760
Right.

309
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:54,600
And so people can get to understand

310
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,240
sort of these different types of developers

311
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,360
and, and you know, what they care about and what they want

312
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,800
because my clients are building tools for developers.

313
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:02,640
Right.

314
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,120
So the sort of the things that you enjoy.

315
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,200
But so when I was at where I'm getting to, right,

316
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:08,800
is like, I was at work, Camp US, you know,

317
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,800
you were there obviously, we got to connect there quite a bit.

318
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,480
And then there was an event in early December

319
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,120
called commit your code in Dallas.

320
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,480
Danny Thompson brought together.

321
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,440
So a very developer curated event.

322
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:21,360
He's a developer.

323
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,280
He built the event.

324
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,320
He brought together developers.

325
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,880
And I was saying that at the event,

326
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,040
it was like interesting how all these people were like,

327
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,680
yeah, I'm normally introverted, but like, you know,

328
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,800
I love these types of events.

329
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:32,880
I want to talk to other devs.

330
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,360
And I was like, see, like we are not anti-social.

331
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:36,400
And so I actually tweeted it out.

332
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:37,240
Oh my God.

333
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,080
We are so not anti-social.

334
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,360
Do you want to go on a complete trend?

335
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,800
Do you want to go completely crazy tangent right now?

336
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,040
Because I have, this is like something,

337
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,520
I'm working with my therapist, but I want to pitch maybe,

338
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,320
I'm trying to write the pitch for WordCamp Bureau.

339
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,280
Ooh, well, let me finish this,

340
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:55,280
and then let's talk about this.

341
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,720
Because I think you have tons of it.

342
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,320
So what I did is I just tweeted it really quick.

343
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,160
And so I know you're going to have tons of feedback.

344
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:02,080
As I tweeted it really quick,

345
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,000
and I was like, developers are not anti-social.

346
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,440
We are anti-social to anyone who is not us.

347
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,680
If we find out that you're a fellow developer

348
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,120
or a fellow programmer or whatever,

349
00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:13,440
it's like an instant relationship.

350
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,080
Like I don't remember the exact time

351
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,120
that you and I first met.

352
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:18,200
I think it was WordCamp San Diego.

353
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,120
But it happens, it never fails that I meet someone else

354
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:25,200
and they're like, you're a developer.

355
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,760
And I'm like, you're a developer.

356
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,360
And then all of a sudden like, we're best friends.

357
00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:30,520
It's like step brothers, you know, it just is like instant.

358
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,360
So let's talk about this and what you're thinking in

359
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:34,840
on your soapbox.

360
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,640
So my soapbox, I mean, I'm writing my year in review

361
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,320
still right now, because they, I mean,

362
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,720
last year was 10,000 words.

363
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,720
So it was just like, it's like a 3000 or something right now.

364
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,160
So last year, I've talked a lot about

365
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,680
basically autism, basically.

366
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,680
Like I'm a high functioning autistic person basically.

367
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,880
And I'm just slowly coming to grips with that.

368
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,840
But one of the things that I,

369
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:10,480
my first character got sick this year

370
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,440
and I found a new one who specializes

371
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,200
with adult autistic people, especially people

372
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,920
in their 40s, like me, you were just not diagnosed basically.

373
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,240
Like most people you learn through basically,

374
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:24,320
you learned that you're autistic.

375
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:25,360
I don't have any kids.

376
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:28,200
So basically, but for most people they learned

377
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,720
they're autistic because their children get,

378
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,320
their children get a diagnosis.

379
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:34,920
And they're like, wait, I'm like that.

380
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:35,760
So does that mean?

381
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,240
And then like the answer, yeah.

382
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,240
And so, but I learned so much.

383
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,160
And I realized that so many of us,

384
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,600
like developers are like that.

385
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,000
And lots of neurodiverges.

386
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,560
Yeah, lots of neurodiverges.

387
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,200
But what got me really excited about what you said

388
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,920
is that my therapist talked this year

389
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,720
about this theory called the double empathy problem.

390
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,000
Which comes from this research

391
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,040
that it comes from the in the 2010.

392
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,640
So it's really recent.

393
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,360
But basically the stereotype about like,

394
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,000
especially autistic people is that

395
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,600
they're not good socially, right?

396
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,440
So the premise of the research was like,

397
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,360
okay, we're gonna take neurotypical people,

398
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:19,960
neurodivergent people.

399
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,520
If we put them together, they're gonna struggle, right?

400
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,280
So like that's like assumed.

401
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:25,920
But what happens if we separate them?

402
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,240
Well, we'd assume the neurotypical people are gonna be fine

403
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,960
because like they know how to socialize and stuff like that.

404
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,200
But we expect that the neurodivergent people

405
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,440
will not be able to socialize really well

406
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:36,600
because they struggle socially.

407
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,560
But that's not what happened.

408
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,280
When you separated both of them, they did fine.

409
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,520
And that's because they communicate differently.

410
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,640
And that comes back to what you were saying about it.

411
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,480
It's just developers.

412
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,800
They want themselves.

413
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,920
They're kind of like,

414
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,640
a lot of it is neurodivergence, right?

415
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,920
So like that's why they always like,

416
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,720
even like if you wanna talk about it,

417
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,640
like that's why a lot of the job postings,

418
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,440
the way like they scream people,

419
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,400
like they're looking a bit for like that kind

420
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,240
of neurodivergence and candidates.

421
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,040
That doesn't mean that if you're not neurodivergent,

422
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,520
you can't be a programmer.

423
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,480
It's just like, you think about the stereotypes

424
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,040
of programmers and all that stuff.

425
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,200
It's a lot of that.

426
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,480
But it's really interesting because that's why like,

427
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:23,720
when you put programmers together,

428
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,200
like they understand like,

429
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,480
oh, like I can't deal with people right now completely.

430
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,320
Totally get it.

431
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,800
Like go away, go find your safe space.

432
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,320
You know, like.

433
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,360
Exactly.

434
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,200
But then you also can sit next to each other

435
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,000
and be like, I can't deal with people right now.

436
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,440
And just completely be in your own little zone,

437
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,200
sitting next to each other and not care.

438
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,040
And you're not gonna offend it.

439
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:44,880
They get you.

440
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:45,720
You're not gonna offend anyone.

441
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:46,560
Yeah, and you're not offended.

442
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:47,400
Yes.

443
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:48,240
Right?

444
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,080
Exactly.

445
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,560
And so it's really interesting.

446
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,800
So I really wanna talk a lot about that basically.

447
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,480
Cause there's a lot more stuff,

448
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,320
but like it's just the way you talked about it

449
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:57,840
and made me think about that all the time

450
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,000
because the double empathy problem is basically just,

451
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:01,960
you don't communicate.

452
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,680
So you have to empathize with the other side.

453
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,680
So if you wanna, you have to double empathize.

454
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,760
So you have to think about what you're thinking,

455
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,320
translate it to what they're thinking

456
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,120
and then translate what they're saying back to you.

457
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:14,320
So it's a lot of work.

458
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,400
That's why a lot of times people feel tired, right?

459
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,880
Like, you know, you get tired of, you know,

460
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,520
it's very common for developers.

461
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,280
Like they, you know, you deal with a non-developer person

462
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,680
and you're like, I'm tired of this.

463
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,040
Like I can't deal with that anymore.

464
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,360
And it's just because it's just demanding to do all this.

465
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,680
And I've been lucky because I'm a high functioning.

466
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,120
Like I can do a lot of it,

467
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:42,360
but you saw me at Portland,

468
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,960
I just come out of like a burnout,

469
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,000
like an autistic burnout.

470
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,560
And I was like much less social.

471
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,120
Like I was like, oh, I need to take time off.

472
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:52,320
You know, like it go my room,

473
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,960
I would sleep and stuff like that

474
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:55,280
because I was there to network.

475
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,240
Like, you know, we just talked about hiring, right?

476
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,680
Like I do consulting, how do I get clients and work

477
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,960
is networking.

478
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,880
So I have to be on, on, on.

479
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,680
Like, so like when I need my recharge, I go back and then,

480
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,680
but it's exactly what you're talking about.

481
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,000
That's why I would love to do,

482
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,720
like I always wanted if I had more time

483
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,440
to bring back a loop conf, you know,

484
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,560
the, the work press.

485
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,160
Oh, loop conf was so good.

486
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,160
Ryan, let's bring back loop conf in SLC.

487
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,520
It has to be an SLC.

488
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:29,360
Like it needs to be.

489
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,480
I think, I think I'm trying to get Raquel,

490
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,280
like we have a friend named Raquel that.

491
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,600
Wonderland curious.

492
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,040
That's trying to organize events now.

493
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,640
So in the WordPress space.

494
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,760
So she's doing a business one by told her, like,

495
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,400
if that's successful, you should look into doing that one X

496
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120
because I think there's a lot of need for that.

497
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,160
And yeah, developers want to hang out with each other.

498
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,960
And they want to, they want to talk about nerdy stuff.

499
00:22:58,960 --> 00:22:59,520
And stuff.

500
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:00,640
Yep.

501
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,000
And talk shop and stuff like that.

502
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,520
Like I had, speaking of like all this neurodiped

503
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,160
virgin stuff, like I learned really early on that I just,

504
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,800
just not talk about programming.

505
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,600
So I just not never talk about it.

506
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,760
Like the only time I talk about that's so heartbreaking,

507
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:16,800
but it's true though.

508
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,520
Like my parents, like my mom was a dentist.

509
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,240
Like a lot, everybody was like kind of the medical side.

510
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,200
I fainted the bloods.

511
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,240
I always joke that I went to the under applied science.

512
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,280
Like my sister is a veterinarian, but like I just like,

513
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,000
I fainted the blood.

514
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,040
So it's like, it's over.

515
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,640
Like I can't, I can't.

516
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,360
Also I have my shaking too.

517
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,320
So it's just can't, can't be a doctor.

518
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,480
Can't do that.

519
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,200
But they would always be really interested in what they were

520
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,000
talking about.

521
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,480
But I would like start talking about programming stuff

522
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,760
and they would glade their, their eyes would glaze over,

523
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,400
you know, and it was the same thing with a lot of,

524
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:53,360
a lot of my family.

525
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,840
Like it was just, even when I went on my own,

526
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,680
they didn't quite understand what I did for a living.

527
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,840
But once I started doing public speaking, they're like,

528
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,440
Oh, you cross a public speaker.

529
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:02,160
I was like, Oh, okay.

530
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:02,880
Okay.

531
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,120
Yeah.

532
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,440
And I'm like, you speak that conference.

533
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:05,920
And then they're like, okay.

534
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:06,960
They can understand that.

535
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,240
They can understand that.

536
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:14,240
But it, but it taught me really early on that if I want to,

537
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,480
navigate the social world, I just don't talk about programming.

538
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,400
So it's, it sometimes it's hard to meet,

539
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,480
to get me to talk about it, unless we're in these kind of safe

540
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,840
space, because it is a kind of a safe space to be in a,

541
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,600
in a conference like that.

542
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,720
And be able to talk shop.

543
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,560
And I have a larger, there's a slightly different problem too

544
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,280
in the WordPress space, which is the skill range is so large.

545
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:41,600
Oh yeah.

546
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,640
That's, that's, yeah.

547
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,280
And, and, and I'm at like basically like the point zero,

548
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,040
zero, one percent percent.

549
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,880
I'm like, at the top.

550
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,560
So I know all the smart people that I can talk to, but,

551
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,760
you know, like half the time I just, there's not that much

552
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,240
conversation to be had in the first place.

553
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,160
But, you know, that's the reality of it.

554
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,800
And, but that's why those, those events are important.

555
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,920
That's why, that's why I was brought up loop conf and I said,

556
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,360
like, I would love to bring that back because there's just,

557
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,200
there's just something about having a space for developers

558
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,160
where they're just like, okay, like I'm just talking to

559
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,000
under developers, we can nerd out, get really offended

560
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,040
because you use like spaces versus tabs or like something

561
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,080
like that.

562
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,720
Like, you know, like, you know, like, okay, you're using tabs,

563
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:31,840
like go over there.

564
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,040
Although like, we're anti, we're anti spaces over here.

565
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:35,840
Yeah.

566
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,880
I've changed, I still use spaces, but if I, I understand now

567
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,120
why tabs are better basically, but it's only for the accessibility

568
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,640
aspect that I let them win basically is I remember reading

569
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,320
somebody that said like for screen readers, because there's

570
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,120
a Alex Stein, I think it's easy to WordPress space.

571
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:58,720
Like he's, he's a blind programmer.

572
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,760
And I think it was true him that I heard about it, but,

573
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,000
but basically if you have spaces on the Braille reader,

574
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,160
it's like four characters, right?

575
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,120
So it just takes a lot of space.

576
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:16,240
It's not like accessible for, you know, a tab is one character.

577
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,400
So tabs win is what you're saying.

578
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,600
Tabs win basically.

579
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,400
Woo!

580
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,680
But I still use spaces.

581
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,200
No validating.

582
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,240
I still use spaces.

583
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,520
Eventually I'll just do a whole thing where I'll switch to tabs.

584
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,880
I haven't pulled a trigger on that yet, but I admit that for

585
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,600
that reason, I think you should use spaces, not spaces,

586
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,600
the tabs just for, from, from an accessibility,

587
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,360
an accessibility standpoint, because I'm really bored that.

588
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,800
And I think that that was like, before that I just didn't,

589
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,760
I didn't care.

590
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,280
Like I was just use whatever you want.

591
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,080
I really like spaces, but when I heard that argument, I was like,

592
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,880
okay, there's an actual real.

593
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,240
There's a right answer.

594
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,120
There's a right answer because it does affect them.

595
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:05,680
Yeah.

596
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:11,360
Namely, you know, because even if you're like, oh, well,

597
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,800
it's four spaces, but it's there, there's only so many characters they can have on

598
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:15,520
this screen, right?

599
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,280
Like it's not like us where you can like, like just make your screen,

600
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,200
like zoom out or something like that.

601
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,800
And then, and all that stuff, like they don't have that option.

602
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,160
So for me, I'm sure it was, it probably was their time too,

603
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,680
because it has to read through each space.

604
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,440
So it's probably like space, space, space, space.

605
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:32,720
And you're like, that's annoying.

606
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,200
Yeah.

607
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,520
Imagine when you're like, if you're like, especially the work

608
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,400
press space where they like love indenting for like eight levels of indentation.

609
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,280
No good reason.

610
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,520
And then, and, and you're like, oh, well, okay, like this line is just all spaces.

611
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,520
I don't actually know what, like you're, you're in the Braille reader and it's like

612
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:50,400
just all spaces.

613
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,360
You never know what's on the other side because it just goes off.

614
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:54,560
But yeah, no.

615
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,560
So when I heard that, I was like, I think, I was like, no, this is legit.

616
00:27:59,120 --> 00:27:59,600
Yep.

617
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:06,080
So a bit harder to change like decades of your own kind of preference, but

618
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:06,960
Especially for years.

619
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:07,440
Yeah.

620
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,400
You've been doing it for years.

621
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:08,960
Yeah.

622
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,880
But I, when I heard that, I was like, because before that it felt so like, okay.

623
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,400
It was just a funny argument.

624
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:16,560
Yeah.

625
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,520
It was a funny argument.

626
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,520
Oh, well, you know, with tabs, you can adjust it to whatever you like and all that stuff.

627
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,400
And I was like, I get that, but it's like really annoying for like formatting,

628
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,920
you know, like when you're doing output and things like that.

629
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:36,000
But I just felt like, no, okay.

630
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,240
Like if you're somebody that needs like special, have special needs around like your screen reader,

631
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,800
like, and it does negative you, like I feel like that trumps basically

632
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:48,400
Any opinion?

633
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:48,720
Yeah.

634
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,760
Any opinion you have basically on that.

635
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,600
And so that's why I say, so that's why I say like real,

636
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,960
I'm, I'm not, I don't say reluctantly, but like it's hard.

637
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,440
Like I said, it's hard to change your own habits because like I've always used space spaces,

638
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:09,680
but I would tell somebody now, like you're better off using tabs if you can for that reason.

639
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:11,360
Yeah, for sure.

640
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,560
Yeah.

641
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,360
Even if there's not a ton of people, like, you know, I think about that all the time

642
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,360
because I'm just like programming sweet.

643
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:27,680
Like if, if you can do it, which is like amazing to me, like I can't even imagine having to do that.

644
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:33,360
But there's, there's a non negligible amount of people that are, you know,

645
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,080
blind or have like high site issues and that is useful for them.

646
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,000
So it's like, that's really important.

647
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,320
So that's where I found that.

648
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:42,880
Yeah, totally.

649
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,640
So we'll come back around to like the neurodivergent side of it.

650
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:46,800
Right.

651
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,560
So speaking more to that and like,

652
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:49,040
Yeah.

653
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,400
I think whether you're neurodivergent or not, I think the thing that you spoke to

654
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,120
with that that relates to sort of like anyone who might be blind as a developer or whatever

655
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,040
is like, it's a passion for us.

656
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,640
Like it is not a job.

657
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,560
And I think that a lot of people really struggle to relate to that and also really

658
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,560
struggle to understand our work in that way.

659
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:07,280
Yeah.

660
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,320
My husband doesn't get it.

661
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,520
He's just like, it's your job.

662
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,360
And I was like, it's my life.

663
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,760
Like it's, it's like my everything.

664
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,760
And so I think like if you are of the mindset, right, that programming is a beautiful thing

665
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,800
for you because you love to build things with like O's very similarly.

666
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:23,120
Yeah.

667
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,080
And it's, you don't let those sort of neurodivergence or other disabilities kind of

668
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:28,880
slow you down, right?

669
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,760
You just work around them and still very admirable.

670
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,360
But I think that what I'm getting to is like, when programming is in your blood,

671
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,920
it's in your blood and there's no stopping it essentially.

672
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,120
Yeah, exactly.

673
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,320
And it's really hard.

674
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,200
Like it's that's why, like it, it, it, I mean, you've said it perfectly, you know,

675
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,680
like that's why I keep going back to programming.

676
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Like I get pushed into like different directions.

677
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,560
And then when I listen to my heart, I'm just like, what I really want to do, like it's,

678
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:04,320
that's the same reason a lot of developers dream about having their little side business

679
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,920
because they just want to tinker on the, like one of the best

680
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:15,040
it was a blog post.

681
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,720
I'll try to find it for you if you want.

682
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,560
I don't know if you do show notes, but basically,

683
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:18,960
I do.

684
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:19,120
Yeah.

685
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:25,120
It was called like something about gardening, but basically like, I just want to putter in

686
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,240
my garden basically.

687
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,200
Oh, yes.

688
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:27,360
Yes.

689
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:27,920
Yes.

690
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,640
Like I'll find it's on it's bare blog.

691
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:31,440
It's your hobby.

692
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,280
You want to go play with your hobby.

693
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:33,600
Yeah.

694
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,280
But it's like if you do gardening, right?

695
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,280
Like you want to just go putter in your plants.

696
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:43,520
Like, you know, like I, I basically at some point, like I work on a product called E-Mir

697
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:49,120
and basically I wanted to modernize the code for like, fix all this stuff to like make it

698
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,400
like at the, the recent PHP versions.

699
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,280
And then I just like, yeah, period and fixed it and I could, you know, I could just,

700
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,400
if you want to spend time like writing a test or doing the stuff, you can just like putter

701
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:09,360
around and, and do that stuff. And that's a lot of, you know, when you talk to programmers

702
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,360
that wish that had their own little business, it's like, they're not necessarily looking

703
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:21,440
to have like, like I'm not looking for a six figure a year necessarily like business.

704
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,920
Like I'm just looking for something where I can like, like wake up in the morning and

705
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,520
like work, work on like, on my code and make again, it's a developer product.

706
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,400
Just make people's life easier. Like I don't have a ton of clients, but like the clients

707
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,520
that use my product love it. So that makes me super happy. I wish I could reach more people

708
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:47,360
and that's different. That's a bit like the struggle with your clients, but it's, but that's

709
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,320
you are one of my clients technically. That's the case.

710
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,360
Yeah, technically.

711
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:52,800
You are my client profile.

712
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,160
I am your, I'm your, I am your client profile in a way. Just like, I just make a thousand

713
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:05,440
bucks a month. So it's like, I'm not in your technical and the revenue, but, but it's that,

714
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,920
but you know, but here's the thing though, you're just to speak to you only because

715
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,840
there's an opportunity here and I rarely talk about my business, but I think here's the thing

716
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:21,200
though is like, you could be a $5,000, a $10,000 business. If your clients love your product

717
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,400
as much as they do, there are more of your clients out in the world.

718
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:25,360
Of course. Yeah.

719
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,600
Who love your product. So it's, it's just fine.

720
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:28,880
It's hard to market. It's not easy.

721
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,520
It's not easy. It's hard. No, that's it. It's not easy. And it's like a WordPress product,

722
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,680
although I'm like looking to branch out. I don't want to get into the stupid drama,

723
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:45,600
but basically, but, but, but yeah, like the clients that I use it stick with it because

724
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:51,120
they love it, you know, because I'm always like, and I wish I could do more. Like all,

725
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,440
I have like this laundry list of ideas of things that I would love to build, but I'm just like,

726
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:01,600
I have to do consulting. I have to live, you know, and I don't, and, you know, but that's a

727
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,040
lot of what the program is. You talk about programmers that like want to build their little

728
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:11,840
business. I would argue that most of the time when I talk to them, they're not looking for a huge

729
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,280
payout necessarily, you know, like, you know, like, if they want to scratch that itch, they want to

730
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,960
do something. They want to scratch that itch. Like, yeah, like when I was looking to, to,

731
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,920
when I was having acquisition talks, like I was just looking to, okay, like how much do I need?

732
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,400
Like I would go backwards and I was like, okay, how much do I need so that I can just like program

733
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,280
for the rest of my life basically. Yeah. And like build stuff, you know, whatever it is. Build stuff

734
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:44,960
with me. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you have my email. I do. So, but, but it was like, just building stuff

735
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:51,200
is fun, you know, like, and I know some programmers that do it a lot more than me. Like I have friends

736
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:56,960
that I have a friend in particular, like who just like is always like trying to break shit,

737
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,240
basically he has the hacker gene. He has the hacker gene. I have to, I always say, like, I have the

738
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:07,200
reverse engineering gene. Like it's like, they're different, they're different things. I always tell

739
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,000
people, like the hacker is like, did they think about this edge case? They're always like trying to

740
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:17,680
break it in some way. And then the reverse engineering, you don't necessarily have either of them, but I

741
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,400
just know I'm a really good reverse engineer because I'm really curious about how they got it.

742
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,360
Like how did they get there? You know, and then you like try to reverse, okay, what could they have

743
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,560
used? What could they have done? And then you kind of built from that, which is very different from

744
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:38,560
like, breaking stuff. Because like, he's, he's crazy. Okay, so we're, we're dealing with a lot of nerds.

745
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,520
So there's probably a couple of World of Warcraft people in there. Oh, guaranteed. Lots of gamers.

746
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,920
Basically, in the, it was the third expansion, the second expansion of World of Warcraft was like,

747
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,480
kind of like, it's called Radlich King. And they had an event that was called like zombies, but they

748
00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:01,120
had zombies. And this game is two sided, you have one side, you have like, Horde Alliance,

749
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,360
basically. But during that event, if you were a zombie, you were on the third side zombies.

750
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:12,240
And basically, you couldn't build a guild that was like, could only be on one side. But what he

751
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:18,960
did is he got zombies to sign his guild charter. And then he basically, so he had characters on

752
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:24,160
both sides. And then he got scared to even log in because they were like, if you find, they find out

753
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,360
like, that I have like a guild, now they have it as a feature, like it doesn't matter anymore. But

754
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:36,240
like, 10 years ago, he just broke it. Like, he was incredible. But like, yeah, but you just need

755
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:42,160
people that have that brain, right? Like it's like, like, and he's a self taught developer, like he

756
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:51,200
has high school education, but he's like, kind of like, savant, level. Yeah, savant level. I mean,

757
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,480
he's so funny. Like he works with maps and stuff like that. And he's the most geographically

758
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:02,080
challenged person I've ever met. Like he can't go to blocks without using a GPS basically, but he

759
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,560
works with maps all the time. But when you know how to solve problems, you know how to solve problems.

760
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,560
Exactly. Exactly. So it's, it's great. But that's like the, that's what I love about programming.

761
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:20,480
Exactly. It's like, you have that. Just it's, it's all about building stuff and like,

762
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:26,400
fixing problems, breaking things. Like, I don't know. There's nothing like it. So that again,

763
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,200
that's why like, you, you go back to it. Like it's like, you told your husband, it's in your blood,

764
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,600
right? Like, I just, I like that a lot. And I like programmers and they're, they're my people. That's

765
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:45,200
why like, it was really hard to, to think about management. Yeah. Absolutely. A decade ago, because

766
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,720
of that. Yeah. Yeah. Fully agree. Okay. So let's actually talk shop a little bit more. You've already

767
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:54,880
been on here for a long time. So we're like, you could have me for two hours, you know me, right?

768
00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:01,280
So I did not have like meetings. Yeah. Okay. So what are your favorite tools in terms of like

769
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,480
developer tools, right? You like building tools for developers, but what do you like using?

770
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:11,440
What's your kind of tools? Yeah. So I'm still very involved in the PHP space. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a big

771
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:18,000
PHP. Is it Stan when you're a fan of like, basically like, I don't know, but basically I'm a love,

772
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:28,880
I'm a PHP fan. Yeah. And actually, I was just at a Christmas party dinner just before the holidays

773
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,800
with a bunch of programmer friends, they're all in the video game industry. And we were,

774
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,560
I was me and another friend, we were talking about PHP and we were just saying PHP is great.

775
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Like I just love PHP. So inside PHP, there's Laravel. You asked about Laravel. I did. I really

776
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:51,440
like Laravel. I mean, the programmer in me, the kind of like OCD programmer in me doesn't like

777
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,480
Laravel all that much because there's a lot of magic, but it gets stuff done. Like it's just like,

778
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:03,200
you get like, you know, like at the end of the day, like you asked about Rails too. Like if I had to

779
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,400
learn another framework next, I would probably learn Rails because it's the same kind of energy.

780
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:14,880
Like if, if you're a developer that wants to get stuff done, like I pay attention to a lot of what

781
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:24,880
Taylor says for that reason, because like Taylor has a good sense of what developers want. You

782
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:34,320
know, like he is a developer. He's a developer. He builds for himself. And so I really like PHP,

783
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:40,480
Laravel. I was trying to think of stuff that frustrates me recently, but I mean, a lot of

784
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:46,320
stuff that frustrates me recently is all database related. Like I just like, like back, I had to

785
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:54,720
rewrite like, like I had to like, one, like MySQL and MariaDB not, not working together anymore. It's

786
00:39:54,720 --> 00:40:00,880
pain the ass. Like I find there's a lot of pain around databases. And again, I'm assistant men.

787
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:07,840
Like I don't have a perfect solution to how we make that less painful. Like I know, like there was

788
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,840
like, like I played around with some of the auto scaling stuff too, but it, but it wasn't even around

789
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:20,320
that. It was just like backups and restore, like just back up in the restore, like the number of

790
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:26,960
times like a backup breaks for me when I'm dealing with client stuff, like I'm just like, okay, I

791
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,760
have to manually edit it because it's like, it was taken in one version of this and it's not

792
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:39,920
compatible for that. Like it's just really obnoxious. A lot of the stuff that you like,

793
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,920
I, that and like, I mean, this one's like really for the assistant men in your audience, mail servers,

794
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:51,680
mail servers are the worst. I still have to manage some mail. Mail servers are the worst. I, I still

795
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:57,840
have to manage one for a client and I hate my, I hate every time that I have to deal with it. I'm

796
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:06,000
so thankful for chat GPT now to like save me from having to scour through old use net posts to try

797
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,280
to find out what's going on with this archaic stuff. But I have huge respect for anybody that

798
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:17,600
works with mail servers on a daily basis and keeps them running and deals with spam and all that

799
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:23,040
stuff because it's in mailboxes and all that stuff. It's just really painful. Like, but yeah,

800
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:29,040
like on the dev side, it's like, it's really like the day, honestly, the database stuff now feels

801
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:36,000
like the worst. It's like, you know, are you, is it like in a, in like a WordPress sort of like

802
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,160
tech stacks? I feel like database there's a nightmare there, but like in sort of like other

803
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:45,840
technology databases are a lot more efficient. Yeah. I mean, it's just the day to day usage

804
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,880
of the database. I mean, it's not like, Oh, I mean, if I had a choice, I'd use Postgres. But

805
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:57,760
yeah, I mean, it's like most of the, even Larabelle, they're kind of like my sequel heavy. Like it's

806
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:04,880
just the PHP just loves my sequel. Yeah. So they really like my sequel and PHP Lance. So you just

807
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:13,360
end up using a lot of it. But I don't know if I'd have as many problems with Postgres and stuff

808
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:19,920
like that again, because like it's just on the my sequel, the my sequel, Maria DB fork stuff. Like

809
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:26,560
also like, I'm a bit worried for the next like decade, like there's just a lot of forks happening,

810
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:33,360
like engine X got forked, like, like, I think Rita's got forked, like it's just because, you know,

811
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:40,880
and it's just really hard to like, like the compatibility around all those things is like

812
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:48,640
the heart like it's just, it's annoying around that stuff. So but yeah,

813
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,840
I hate to say that this is even a thing because like, obviously these are my clients. So they're

814
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:58,960
fruitful and necessary and like we love them. But I think the developer tools ecosystem has

815
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,560
kind of sort of like gotten a little too crazy. And I'm not saying it's too crazy and that there

816
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,920
are too many tools per se. But I think that we're seeing a lot more of developer tools being

817
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:16,160
creative. And I think that yeah, when we do that, it's developers trying to make a tool, right? And

818
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,480
we kind of talked back to, you know, how that can be problematic and not understanding sort of the

819
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:26,160
growth side of it and actually the market fit side of it. But I think that there's that is sort

820
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,720
of the negative right of all the developer tools is like, you want to make an opinion about a

821
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:34,320
developer tool that you want to start using, but it's like, does it perfectly fit with everything

822
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:40,240
else? Right? Can I right? Exactly. Well, I think a lot about that it's kind of weird, right? Because

823
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:45,280
so with EMEAR, a lot of people are like, okay, what do I use locally? Because for EMEAR, just for

824
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,480
a background is like basically infrastructure management. Like it's like basically the Larval

825
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:57,040
Vapor but for WordPress right now. And so it manages your AWS infrastructure and all that stuff.

826
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,280
But a lot of people are like, okay, but what do I use locally? And I'm like, whatever you want,

827
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:07,040
I did not make this. Yeah, I don't want to pit. So it's weird because some developers, they just

828
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:16,160
want to be handheld. They do. Yeah, in WordPress, but I find like it's just newer developers,

829
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:22,080
maybe some that come from where it's not like we talk about like when it's in your blood, because

830
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:28,720
like, I think, I think we'll see more of that, you know, because the job market's a bit difficult,

831
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:34,400
I think we might see more of the people that stay are the people that really are that's in their

832
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,320
blood kind of thing. Yeah, like a lot of the boot camps was like, oh, there's a ton of money here.

833
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:46,080
Let me just do a boot camp and then do programming. And they want to be handheld, right? Like,

834
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:51,680
they're not asking questions. They like, they'll go to chat GPT and just be like, can you do the

835
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:56,240
whole thing for me? And then when they don't, they're just upset. I feel like those are the

836
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,520
developers that will make it through sort of this AI boom, right? Because there's all this

837
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,160
conversation of like cursor and bolt and v zero and all these tools that can help you write code.

838
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:10,160
I try it's going to be the ones that's in their blood. Yeah, you try them. I tried them. I mean,

839
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,480
I want to do a talk on that. Like I like you on the built for dev hub.

840
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,400
Do it on the built for dev hub. My little ticker across the bottom people don't even know I have

841
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:27,440
a giant developer community of like developers. But yeah, I've been pitching this talk for a year

842
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:33,760
and a half now. But basically, I think a VI more as a pair programming tool. Exactly. Exactly.

843
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,000
Smart of your buddy, your little assistant. Yeah, you're a little assistant, right? And

844
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,680
I think it works better for again, the people that it's in their blood, right? Because like

845
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,800
you're like, I use it, you know what it's been the most useful for like, it's kind of funny,

846
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,480
because I was talking with, you know, we have a friend in common called Toby and I was talking

847
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,000
with who was asking me a question. He's like, why did you name it this way? And I was like,

848
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,720
Oh, I just had a conversation with Chad GPT about naming stuff because like, you know,

849
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:05,840
the saying in programming, there's two hard things in programming, cash in validation and

850
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,240
naming things. And Chad GPT is amazing for naming things. Like I'll have discussions about it.

851
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:13,840
I'm like, no, I don't like this. Like, can you think about her thing? And eventually, like we

852
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:20,800
nail down a name that like sits what's going on in my head. I love that. But it's having, it's,

853
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:26,880
it's kind of having that discussion. But yeah, so it's hard for tools. Like for me,

854
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,200
in the WordPress space, exactly, like a lot of it want to be handheld, some of them don't. And

855
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:36,560
then I built a tool where you're not supposed to be handheld that much. So it's been a lot of struggle

856
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:43,360
for my growth, basically, because of that, because you have, if, if you're thinking about your clients,

857
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,840
we want to talk shop a bit, probably you have to think about what developers you're aiming for.

858
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:53,120
Are you exactly for the people like me, who just need a really good documentation site? Like,

859
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:58,400
I get comments on my documentation site because I care a lot about documentation. So I wrote a lot

860
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:05,200
of it. Developer experience matters. And that's great for those developers, but some of them just

861
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:13,120
want to be handheld. And then that scenario, the document site, they don't really care about it

862
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:19,120
because they're not going to read it. And so it's really hard on that respect. That's why I was saying

863
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,840
like, like, they come to me and then they're like, okay, what do I use locally? And I'm like, whatever

864
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:30,640
you want, I'm not here to, like, I try to make the tool for developers. In my mind, the developers

865
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:36,560
are, they're opinionated. They want to have, they want to work the way they're comfortable with.

866
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:46,080
So I don't want to, I try as little as possible to get in their way of doing that. And so, but

867
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,160
that's a really interesting discussion to have like when you're talking with your clients, because

868
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:57,920
depending on which type, like archetype of developer they're aiming for, the doc site's useless

869
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,760
for them because like, nobody's going to go visit it because they just want to be completely handheld.

870
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,200
Well, that comes into like knowing your exact, like just to kind of speak to what you're saying.

871
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,200
And this is, this is how I try to be different. And maybe you and I should get on like a strategy

872
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,080
session since you're my friend. I like spending my time, but like, because there's a, there is a,

873
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:23,840
there is a target audience for your tool, right? And so when you can figure out that target audience,

874
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,720
that's when you can build that experience around them. Because if it is say your target audience

875
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:32,720
ends up being just depending on your solution, right? I'm just hypothetically throwing out examples

876
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:37,760
here. Let's say that your target audience ends up being developers who do need to be handheld.

877
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,400
That changes everything, right? If your target audience is less technical, but is still building

878
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,160
WordPress sites, still has to deal with infrastructure, but they don't necessarily know. And I'm not

879
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,320
saying this is your audience. I'm just throwing out things. You're going to have to have more docs.

880
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,040
You're going to have to have an onboarding experience. You're likely going to have to have

881
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:58,400
tools that connect things together that connect to their preexisting solutions. You may even have

882
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,400
to have an opinion around what to use locally. You don't have to build it, but you can say,

883
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,160
I think you should use this and here's exactly how you connect it. Because like you said,

884
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,920
there is a, there's a scope with a target audience, right? And it's what does that person look like

885
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:17,920
and when you can actually sit down and narrow into that exact audience, then you can build a

886
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:23,280
product that perfectly does exactly what they need. And you know where they're hanging out. So

887
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:28,080
you know how to go find them. You know what they like. It's a very interesting, but yeah, at the

888
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:33,440
same time, right? You're like in this technical founder in this state of like, what do I do?

889
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,320
Yeah. And I'm also in the WordPress space, which is the one. Exactly. The WordPress space is

890
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:44,720
like all because the WordPress space is like so large on skill level that it's like impossible

891
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:50,800
basically because like I have to you niche down. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm like, I always joke, right?

892
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,440
I'm a niche within a niche within a niche in WordPress. Like I did an object oriented programming

893
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:04,240
book for WordPress. Like you have a quote on it, you know, so on the landing page. So it's,

894
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:09,840
it's really hard because like I'll get clients. They're like, I can't install a plugin. I'm like,

895
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:15,600
of course you can't install a plugin. Like this is like an enterprise thing. And I have enterprise

896
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:21,280
clients. They're like, Oh no, this is fine. Like, you know, like, but I know who my target are. It's

897
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,520
just like in the WordPress space is hard because it's like all the enterprise agencies and they have

898
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,080
like the IP and all that stuff, like without getting into all the details for like the non-word

899
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:35,040
press people. But they're like, I've been in this space for five years trying to market this. Like

900
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:40,560
I have a good idea. Like I, what I do a lot is plant seeds. Like I call it planting seeds. Like

901
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,560
I just like build relationships with agencies and stuff like that. And people that I know have

902
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,440
the technical know how to use the product. Exactly. And when they're ready, and then when

903
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:57,840
they're ready, they have the client, the project where they're ready to use it. Then we start

904
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:03,680
having the discussion. So it's like a much longer term thing because it's so niche. It's so niche,

905
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:09,680
right? But, but just talking on for like the larger products that are thinking about developers.

906
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,120
Yeah. I've thought about that. Like, okay, how do I make it easier? But it is just in WordPress.

907
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,400
I'll never solve it all because they'll be like, okay, okay, you connected to my GitHub repo,

908
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,840
it deploys automatically, you put the get up action, you made it all automatic and beautiful.

909
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:31,520
I actually don't know how to get push deploy or like, you know, like, it's just, you know,

910
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:36,080
like there's some people, there's a lot of people that are just used to like, why kind of an sftp

911
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:43,280
into this and totally totally. So it's just really hard on that respect. It's nothing to do with

912
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:51,200
but it shows to like, okay, who are your developers and but I'm stubborn, basically, I'm a Torah

913
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:57,360
and I'm stubborn and I just want to keep building it for people like me. And hopefully there's a

914
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:04,080
lot, there's more like it slowly people find me and then I eventually I do have a couple of customers,

915
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:09,120
but it's just, it's hard. Like it's just, it's, it's the reality also of like building developer

916
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:15,440
tools is that yeah, when especially if you're a more advanced devs, like you, it's, it's hard,

917
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,080
like when you're trying to deal with the different skill ranges, it's, it's hard to build a developer

918
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:26,480
tool where you're like, okay, I love this tool. I, and I think people on my skill level are going

919
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:32,160
to love this tool, but actually I need to make it so that Lord skill people or like people with

920
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:37,760
different like educational backgrounds or whatnot, like we were talking about like boot camp, if you

921
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:44,080
come from a boot camp and it's less in your blood, like it's more of a, like it's a job more than like

922
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:49,280
a passion, right? Like, you know, to talk like a millennial, right? Like it's just like, you know,

923
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,840
for a lot of people programming is for people like me, programming is a passion, right? Like

924
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,000
if I want to make money, I wouldn't, I'd be like doing something completely else. Like,

925
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,600
not, not programming wise, but I wouldn't be sitting in my basement building a product and

926
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:10,320
just doing a little bit of consulting. Like I just, I just, so you have to think about that too. So

927
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,680
when you're thinking about the devs and all that stuff, because it's just some of them, they're

928
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:21,360
just no, like I'm, like I'm using whatever is cool right now because that's where the money is.

929
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:28,640
And then just do it all for me. Please chat GPT slash cursor slash bull, like write the website

930
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:35,760
for me, write the project for me. I don't, and then it's great for me because I come in after

931
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:42,640
and I clean up their work basically because like, because that's like one of the things that people

932
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:48,080
don't, the less business, the people don't necessarily understand the more business people,

933
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,480
sorry, the less developer people understand, don't understand is that it's easier to write

934
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:59,920
new code than to maintain old one. And so like for, for me on my consulting side, like I just end up

935
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:06,080
doing that a lot of the time, like it's like, Oh, I have to maintain people's old stuff and

936
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,760
developers want to work on the new and shiny and they don't want to work on the new stuff. But

937
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,640
also from a skill level, you just need, you need to be more skillful to work on old code. Like you

938
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:21,120
don't want to break that. You have to be able to keep more stuff in your head at once. So,

939
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,320
so it's yeah, sorry, we went on a tangent, but that's okay. No, that's where the show's supposed

940
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:32,560
to go. We do need to wrap up though, because I do have a meeting got to love that. Okay, so last

941
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:38,000
question, we can kind of tell the last five minutes here before it's 11am personally for me.

942
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:44,640
Yeah. What, what do you do when you get stuck? Because obviously you work as a consultant, you're

943
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,800
also going to product, you don't work side by side with a lot of developers, except for in your

944
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,840
projects and your actual client. Yeah, correct. How do you sort of get unstuck or, you know, work

945
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:59,600
through those challenges when they when they do arise? Well, now, like, what we talked about earlier,

946
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:08,560
like now I, I do chat GPT. I figured. So, and I can give you a super cool example from, yeah,

947
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:14,320
just literally from the holidays. So I was having an issue with E-Mir. I was having people, I was

948
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:19,920
having bots sign up, which was really weird, because like, it just sends a verification email, but

949
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,560
I was starting to get like some spam complaints and like weird auto replies, because they were

950
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:29,360
using the right, they were using the right email, they were using correct email, but they were just

951
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:35,920
entering gibberish, basically. It was like, and I was like, I was trying to talk with chat GPT,

952
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:42,000
like how can you like, can we do it like a gibberish, like, validator thing? And they were

953
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,160
like trying to figure out entropy. Anyways, it was completely off, basically. Like I tried a

954
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,840
couple of things, because it wasn't working. But then I asked it, could you think, like,

955
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:59,520
think something, like, give me solutions that are so outside the box, you know? And, and it gave me

956
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:04,000
a couple of things. Like it was like, use like language models to like evaluate the names. I was

957
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:11,920
like, okay, that's a bit too crazy. But it suggested something called name API. So there's an,

958
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:17,280
there's an API that exists. That's, it's like an old site, like it looks like straight out of the

959
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:25,440
like early 2000s, basically. But it's, but it's called name API.org, I think. And it's, it's a,

960
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:31,360
it's a name parsing API. So it will, in multiple languages, like it supports, like, you know,

961
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:40,400
like, Cyrillic and, you know, Kanji's and all that stuff. But it will, you send it a name, and it

962
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,680
will return back, like you say, okay, I'm giving you a full name, and it'll parse it, try to figure

963
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,800
out what the first name is, and it'll give you a confidence and enroll and a likeliness. And of

964
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:55,680
that, it's a name. And then I just basically started. So I was like, Oh, this is good. And then I was

965
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:01,120
like, started playing with it, like I had my API tools, like, postman, and I was like testing to

966
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:06,640
see and I was like, okay, like this could work. And I didn't ask more from chat GPT. I was just

967
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:12,160
like, okay, like, this is good. And I like, I built like a, like, it's a larval app. So I built a

968
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:18,400
validation tool that just sends the name over via the API gets it back. If the confidence interval

969
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:24,640
is below a certain threshold, basically, you reject it. And all this spam went away, basically.

970
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,800
But that was like, but that was like a way of life, because I was just like, I don't want to put a

971
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:36,880
capture, like I hate CAP. Yep. So I didn't want to put a CAP shot on the, on the site. And I just

972
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:42,400
didn't, you know, I, I don't send a lot of emails, but I was a bit worried, like I'd get like on

973
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,680
spam lists or something like that. So I was just like, Oh, like, get me something.

974
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,480
Like, I was a bit stuck, right? Like I was a bit stuck. And I was just like, okay,

975
00:57:53,520 --> 00:58:00,560
get, get me, find me something creative solutions. Yeah. Like, like, throw me some stuff. Like,

976
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:05,680
and then I can just, you know, some stuff, it was hallucinating. You still got to do your editing

977
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:10,800
job. But basically it threw that out. And I was like, Oh my God, this is an actual thing. It exists.

978
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:16,640
They have a free tier, which is super generous. And I was just like, cool, I'm just, I built it.

979
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:22,240
And I was like, I took me, I think two hours, I built it, shipped it. And then it was, it was done.

980
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:28,400
It was done. And it was like, but a lot of it is chat. Like chat GPT is really good at getting on

981
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,360
you unstuck. Like it's really good at like blank page problem. If you do a lot of, I do a lot of

982
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:38,240
writing too, right? I agree with that. Give me a summer to start. Give me an outline at least.

983
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:43,280
Give me, give me, what will you write? What will you do? Like, because something I like,

984
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:49,600
I've written a lot. So I, I know when it's giving me stuff that I, I think is trash, but I'm, I'm,

985
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:56,720
I'm trying to get substance. I'm trying to get the ball rolling. And sometimes that's what you need.

986
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:03,840
Like, um, so for me, it's like my go to, like, I always tell people, like outside an IDE, I can't

987
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:12,160
think of a tool that changed my way of working right more than chat GPT did. Like, and again,

988
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:16,560
I'm not using it like cursor or whatnot. Yeah, totally. You're just getting

989
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:22,320
unstuck fundamentally, not necessarily programmatically. Cause I saw on Twitter on like,

990
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:27,120
you know, the, the Peter levels and stuff, they're like cursor, cursor, cursor. Uh,

991
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:33,760
this is like the bomb. And I've seen like some videos of people using it and look, I, I get it.

992
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:41,360
It's great. It's great. But I think it's a tool for the people that we were talking about, the boot

993
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:46,400
campers. Yep. Yep. Or it's a tool, I mean, like, or me, right? Like I haven't, I don't code a lot.

994
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:50,160
And we talked about that, how I've like gotten distant away from my technical jobs. And so

995
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,080
it's beautiful for me to just go in there and be like, Oh, walk me through this. Like I would go

996
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,120
in there and I'm like, create me a getting started guide. And I did it for one of my clients because

997
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:03,200
I couldn't find like there, this is a whole digression, but there was, um, documentation was

998
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,080
hard to find, right? And so I was like, give me a getting started guide and walk me through it.

999
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,760
And like it had errors, but I was able to push back and be like, that's not going to work. You

1000
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:14,960
didn't even ask me for the API key. So I could like push back and I do agree. You have to like

1001
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,720
technologically understand what you're doing. And then it's incredibly valuable.

1002
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:26,400
Yeah. I think that the cursor versus chat GPT as a pair programmer, I think speaks a lot to like

1003
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:32,240
the passions versus like, there was a, there was somebody on Twitter who was like, just the doers

1004
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:36,480
versus like, I don't know the tinker or I don't, I forget what they were talking about, but

1005
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:41,680
you know, the people that just want to do, they just want it done. They want the results. They

1006
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:46,800
want the results. They don't care. But like the people that are more on the passion side, like,

1007
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:55,520
I think chat GPT more as a pair programmer fits them better because like I wanted to get my hands

1008
01:00:55,520 --> 01:01:01,920
in it a bit more than just having a discussion with somebody and fixing stuff. And you know,

1009
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,840
like I want my variables a specific way and it can learn all that stuff.

1010
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:11,120
Yeah. Or if you're like in an enterprise role, so like cursor, we had a, there was one called

1011
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,040
or an interview a few weeks ago where they essentially were using it as a productivity

1012
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:19,360
tool. So they asked their teams to start using it, which I think is valuable, but I fully agree

1013
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,040
with what you're saying, right? It's like, if you're already deep into it, you're likely not to use

1014
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:29,200
cursor. You're likely to solve it. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, yeah, I mean, I'm always like keen

1015
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,680
on paying attention to like tools and things like that. Just because I find it interesting,

1016
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:38,960
like I find it interesting, like, you know, I was an early user of chat GPT, and I think there was

1017
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:45,440
a lot of benefits once it got really good. Okay. So I do have to go. Yeah. But two notes.

1018
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,840
First note, you should probably come in my business more because you like love DevTools so

1019
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:55,200
much. And like, I actually could use a bit more like technical nerdiness. Yeah, of course. So we

1020
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,920
should talk about that. Yeah, absolutely. And then the second note, I will, the second note,

1021
01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:07,200
I wanted to just throw out Arcjet. So if you go look, so it's A R C J E T dot com. It's a developer

1022
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:12,880
tool. One of my past clients, I guess I could say it's still current, which is still impending

1023
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:17,440
things. But that's what they do actually was the solution that you built out is like, yes,

1024
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,680
there are many different ways that someone can come in and actually start to like spam you or

1025
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:28,160
annoy you or hit your endpoints or overuse things. And so it's a security as code tool. So it allows

1026
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:34,000
you to basically put those security layers into your code. I think they like it and other people

1027
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,000
listening would probably like it. And since I'm looking now, I'm going to shout it out. They're

1028
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,720
so they're working on the Laravel one. So they don't their modern JS right now. And I think

1029
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:46,560
they're they're working towards that future of like the Django and the Laravel world. So

1030
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:53,040
yeah, I see a Django Ruby on Rails Laravel as the case coming soon. Exactly. Yeah. But detection

1031
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:58,720
rate limiting email validation. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it they're like a little they're

1032
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:06,160
they're little things but you nothing like bots and hacking makes you think outside the box more

1033
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:13,360
exactly. Exactly. Like even for my my consulting stuff, like I have to deal with a lot of

1034
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:25,040
bots like I had the server level. Yeah, I can imagine. And doing that in clever ways

1035
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:32,800
is is tricky, you know, like, because they they can't use cloudflare and stuff like that. So you

1036
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:38,000
have to be a bit more creative. But yeah, absolutely. But that looks cool. I just looked at it. So

1037
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:44,080
that's great. Yeah, super, super, super cool founder. Okay, so to wrap up, where can folks find

1038
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:51,680
Carl, your product and your work? Okay, I lost actually tabbing. I now have a blank screen

1039
01:03:51,680 --> 01:04:03,520
for the for the restream thing. So but basically, it's emirapp.com. Okay, perfect. So that's that's

1040
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:11,360
my little side product. CarlExander.ca is where I used to write a lot. Now I just basically

1041
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:16,800
write my year in reviews. And I have my book there, where people can find I mean, I used to be on

1042
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:21,760
Twitter, I'm kind of gone. I'm trying to basically get off social media, to be honest. But I'm,

1043
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:27,680
I would say LinkedIn now, like, okay, I think where I'm like trying to be active more. I mean,

1044
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,760
I'm not really posting. But if I started to post, I probably post on LinkedIn, because

1045
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:37,200
it's just everybody's kind of more fragmented now, right? Like, and then

1046
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:43,440
it's definitely to go to him for debt. Yeah, we're good. Yeah, GitHub, like it's Carl Alexander,

1047
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:51,600
basically. But yeah, I think LinkedIn is usually the best. And at this point, and yeah, it's good.

1048
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:59,840
I took talk for hours that we're going to get you on my podcast now. And then we'll talk for

1049
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:05,680
another hour, it'll be great. So yes, absolutely. It has been super awesome hanging out with you,

1050
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,960
just like we talked about developers love spending time with each other, which is why

1051
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:14,240
I'm investing so heavily in the actual built for dev hub. So if folks are interested in rewatching

1052
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,880
this after the fact, or to come hang out and some of the other awesome developer events and hang

1053
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:24,560
out, you can visit that at hub dot built for dot dev. Carl, it has been so awesome talking to you.

1054
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,520
This will be on all the channels that has been streamed and also a podcast. And I look forward

1055
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:39,520
to coming on your podcast. Yeah, I'll send you an email about that. Okay. Perfect. All right. Bye friends.