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Hello, hello, everyone.

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I am super pumped.

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Tessa Creasel here, 99Dev Problems show.

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We have Noah Harris with us today.

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Noah, I would love for you to introduce yourself.

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Oh my goodness.

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Okay.

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I got to ask the hard questions.

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I know, I just dumped you right in.

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It's the hard questions.

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Yeah.

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Let's see.

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So my name is Noah Harris.

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I'm currently living in Buffalo, New York.

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I'm a transplant from Atlanta, born and raised in the South.

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I've been in tech for professionally for about 10 years, but I started, I started my tech

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journey in high school as one of those kids who was learning how to code, but it was rocky

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at first and I eventually found my way into some sort of professional engagement, which

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kind of led me down the road to here.

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So that's my, that's my exceed, that's at least my technical background in a very tight

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nutshell.

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Yeah.

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You're very quick introduction.

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Okay.

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So what brought you from Atlanta?

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This is obviously sort of side topic, but it's great to get to know people.

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What brought you from Atlanta to Buffalo, New York?

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Cause that is like so, I mean, polar opposites, honestly.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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The short answer is my wife.

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So I graduated from Georgia Tech in Atlanta and then moved to Columbia, South Carolina,

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where my wife was getting her PhD.

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And then we moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan, where she did her postdoc.

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And then we moved to Buffalo, New York, where she's now has a faculty position at the University

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of Buffalo.

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And so working in tech is nice for that regard is I can work anywhere I have an internet connection.

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And that's kind of been the ideal.

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So it works out very nicely being able to kind of move around as she needs because my

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wife's, it's my wife is much more, I don't want to say restricted, but it's more difficult

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for her to find work because she's very highly specialized.

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Yeah.

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For me.

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So that's kind of what brought me here and I, Buffalo is pretty cool.

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I grew up, I always liked the snow.

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If you ask my parents, they took me out in the snowstorm in the winter of 93 and I did

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not like it.

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But somehow that changed and I love snow, you know, growing up with snow every other year

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and a lot of snow being half an inch to now it casually snows a foot or two.

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Shovelling, you know, shoveling my driveway is not great.

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Snow is very heavy, but, but I do, I do love the snow overall.

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I don't like sliding on it in a car, but I'm a little, a little hesitant to drive on it,

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but I work from home.

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So I don't have to do a lot of that.

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I can just enjoy it that way.

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It looks that's the longer version of how I ended up in Buffalo.

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That is so fun.

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I am originally from Minnesota and I live in Texas, very polar opposites as well.

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Right.

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But I wanted to get away from the snow as being raised in the snow and being around

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it, which it made me an amazing driver.

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I mean, like I got mad driving skills because I can drive on ice.

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My dad taught me how to drive literally on a frozen lake because he was like, we are

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not going to have you in an accident, so it's like the cutthroat learned, learned by doing.

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Yeah.

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But I miss the snow because it's, it's so beautiful.

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And like when it's coming down, it's beautiful when it has that layer over everything, like

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when the trees are covered.

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So we almost got snow here this week.

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Danny Thompson did get snow, likely where he is because Dallas got snow.

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We missed the cut.

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Thankfully, I was a little sad because I, I do really miss the snow.

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You'll have to enjoy some snow play time for me.

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Yeah.

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No, I'm happy to send you some.

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I'm sure we might end up as water if we get there.

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Fun quick aside, actually living, living in Ann Arbor, we had a lake in our community.

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And when it would, you know, it gets cold enough in Michigan to go out on, on the frozen

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water.

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Yep.

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And I saw footprints in the snow to the middle of the, of middle of our little lake and back.

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And being a southerner, I cannot walk on frozen water.

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I can ice, I play hockey.

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I skate all day long, but, but walking on a frozen lake like really gives me the heebie

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jeebies because it never got cold enough to do it in Georgia growing up.

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And it was always like, if you walk out on the lake, it's going to drop you through and

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then you're going to be stuck in like ice water and that's not fun.

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And so like, I remember, I remember like putting a foot out on, on like the edge of the water

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on the lake and being like, can I do it?

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And I was like, no, I can't, I can't do it.

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So I met like driving the thought of driving your car on frozen water terrifies me.

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So kudos to you for being able to do that.

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Well, um, also funny story or sort of additive to this, um, in high school, I probably spent

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every single day after school on a frozen lake because I was obsessed with ice fishing

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and I still love ice fishing, but, um, I used to bring the little ice out there, get my

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heater going, sometimes take the four wheeler, sometimes not.

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And so I'm very, very comfortable on frozen, um, lakes.

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But when you're in Minnesota or Michigan, very similarly related, right?

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Um, beautiful amounts of water up there.

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And so you just get very used to sort of what it's like to live in that amazing, beautiful

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space that it is.

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It was just a little bit warmer.

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I would never leave Minnesota.

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Um, but yeah, you just get used to it, you know, so.

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Yeah.

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And eventually the cold gets into your bones and by about February, you're like, all right,

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I need some more of the good.

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I think snowbirds are onto something.

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But they are so onto something because honestly, Texas is awful in the summertime.

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And so I'm like, can I do nine months here for the school year and then do our summers

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up in Minnesota?

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Like that would be the sweet spot.

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I've seen, I've seen stories of people like putting, putting a cookie dough on a baking

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sheet in their car and letting it cook in the Texas heat.

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Oh yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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I'm very to me.

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It is, it is, but you get used to it.

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And then now I can't go to the cold.

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Like if I was in Minnesota in the winter, I would, I would like probably just, I'd be

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a freeze baby.

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And I think it, it got to like, I don't know, I think it was like 40 degrees Fahrenheit

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here yesterday.

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And I went outside to go just feed the cats because we have outside barn cats, farm cats.

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I was just like, oh, I'm going to die out here.

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And it was literally the shortest walk ever.

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So you get over that.

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But sure.

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All right.

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Let's dive into, so I have a list of great questions I like to ask, but honestly, the

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guests always take it, take it in a beautiful direction.

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So you alluded to your college education.

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Did you go for software engineering or what was the program that you went after?

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So originally I enrolled as a double E electrical engineering.

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Oh, electrical.

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Okay.

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Yep.

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And, and my first semester freshman year, one of my friends was like, why don't you

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switch to computer engineering?

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And I said, yeah, right, sure.

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And that was that.

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I switched to computer engineering, took, took no convincing.

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I didn't even have a reason.

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And it actually probably worked out much better in my favor.

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I like, I like math.

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I understand math theory very well.

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Like if somebody is explaining, like if I'm sitting in a math lecture, like I can follow

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along, but as soon as it comes to solve the math problem on the test, not good, not good

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at it.

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Is that because of testing or because it's math?

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Maybe because of testing.

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Okay.

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Good question though.

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Haven't, haven't, haven't explored that one yet.

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But it, I mean, it kind of, that was kind of me across the board, like even, even with

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like physics and stuff.

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Like I really struggled with Newtonian physics and like throwing bowling balls off of buildings

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and, you know, measuring the trajectory and how far out it's going to go with some like

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basic calculus or trigonometry.

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Like I struggled with that.

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Like Sokotoa, like for like tangents and stuff, I wrote that on my paper throughout college.

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Like I struggled.

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So they're, they're like senior level classes, like, you know, electromagnetic's, which

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are, which are very math heavy, very like physics and math.

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And I'm glad I did not have to take those.

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So if anybody's unaware, computer engineering is, is a hybrid between electrical engineering

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and computer science.

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So electrical engineering is all hardware, computer science is all software and computer

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engineering is the marrying of the two.

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So in seventh grade, I became fascinated with computers.

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My mom was in software actually growing up.

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That is awesome.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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It was, it's interesting to hear her struggles as a woman in tech in the 90s.

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Because it was not a, not a happy environment for her.

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It was not happy for me when I first started, but we can come back to that.

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Like, I believe it.

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I believe it.

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Yeah.

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But I became fascinated with this idea that I hit a button on my keyboard and a light

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shows up on my screen.

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What, what is this pathway?

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Right.

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So that, that's the intersection of hardware and software.

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Yeah.

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And, and eventually when I learned the answer through, I think three years of schooling,

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it's, it was still magic.

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I was like, that's so cool.

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There are so many things that have to happen between the button and the light and it happens

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instantly.

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It's so fast.

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And so I love, like I love, I love all like the, the science memes and the, in the engineering

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memes.

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It's like we taught, we taught rocks to think.

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I love it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's really super cool.

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Joe Casablanco was a guest on Wednesday and he was actually talking about how he intentionally

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went after a specific program.

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So he didn't have to do math.

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He was very much in the software engineering side as well, but had like a media combination

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into the degree.

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So we got to skip out on some math.

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Yeah.

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So I thought that was interesting that it's very much a math plays into, I think a lot

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of us in sort of that developer education.

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I can't speak to that.

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I dropped out of college three times.

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I just am not like, this doesn't work for me.

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Yeah.

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But like we were talking about in the pre-show, right?

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It's like putting hands on keyboards and other things, like getting in and actually like

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doing the things.

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And you know, that's my, my forte.

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So here's an interesting, here's an interesting thought that came to me, that came to me,

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I don't know, maybe a year or so ago.

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And it's how, how most of the hard sciences, physics, chemistry, biology, physics, compare

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two things like computer science.

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Sure.

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Right?

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So, so the thing that like Leon or Danny kind of like harp on a lot is that anybody

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can learn to program and I strongly agree.

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If, if you can tell me the difference between one and zero, yes, no, true or false, you

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can learn to program.

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That's it.

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And, and, and, okay, there's a couple of tangents I was about to go off on, but let me, let

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me see if I can stay focused.

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It's okay.

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It's all good stuff because the viewers are software engineers.

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And so they love to hear about this sort of philosophical how you see things.

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So you go, you go.

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All right.

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So then I'll hit this little tangent and I'll, I'll try to circle back is I equate it a lot

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like photography actually.

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So I'm into photography.

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All right.

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I've been doing photography since high school and, and anybody can learn to take a picture

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and anybody can learn a couple of rules like the rule of thirds and composition and, and

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like leading lines to make their photographs better.

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But very few people are master photographers and, and the people who are professional photographers

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will tell you that you do not take photographs.

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You make photographs.

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And I think programming is very similar in that it's very easy to learn to code and you

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can learn a few tricks to become a, an effective coder, but very few people are like cream

247
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,760
of the crop really see the art behind coding.

248
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:15,080
And honestly, I kind of see it as, as, as art myself because in my head, it's all pictures

249
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,680
and images and diagrams.

250
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,560
Like I, I'm a very visual person.

251
00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:22,240
So my code is in my head, very visual.

252
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,280
But let's see if I can back up to where I was going.

253
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,280
Okay.

254
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:32,480
So the original thought was how, how computer science and, and hard sciences are different.

255
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,860
So in hard science.

256
00:11:36,860 --> 00:11:46,360
So if you look at something like chemistry, chemistry is the study of how atoms and molecules

257
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,240
interact, which is based off of physics, which is based off of math, right?

258
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,380
It kind of all, like all the hard sciences come down to being based on math.

259
00:11:53,380 --> 00:12:00,240
It's usually math, physics, and then biology, chemistry, you know, and all the other things

260
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:01,720
that come off of that, right?

261
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,080
And in these fields, we spend time studying and learning and trying to understand how

262
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,080
it works.

263
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:15,200
We are actively discovering how photons react with things to, you know, enact with the world.

264
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:22,920
And we're trying to discover what already exists in, in that realm of science where

265
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:30,120
computer science is the study of logic and logic at its core, again, ones and zeros.

266
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:37,280
And so what we have done as, as smart monkeys is taken these ones and zeros built Lego blocks

267
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,520
and we take the Lego blocks and we stack them into big giant Lego blocks that make big systems.

268
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:48,080
And so in the computer science world, it's not about discovering the things that don't

269
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,800
exist as much as it is building the things that don't exist.

270
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,880
And so it's coming at it from a different angle of what can we build versus what can

271
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:56,880
we discover?

272
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,320
And I'm not saying that there's, there's a blurry line in there, right?

273
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:05,440
Because the physics of, you know, electronics certainly plays into an action when you have

274
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,040
large distributed systems and stuff like that.

275
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:13,880
Like the, the discrepancies between hardware and software are, are big when you start to

276
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:14,880
go down the rabbit hole.

277
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:20,720
Like one of my first interviews out of college was a senior manager who said, okay, Noah,

278
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,800
do you prefer analog or digital?

279
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,280
That's a loaded question.

280
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,280
What?

281
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,440
I mean, I know what analog is and I know what digital.

282
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,440
I don't, I'm a student.

283
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,840
I've studied it, but I don't have a preference for it.

284
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:38,640
But I mean, like coming back now, years later looking at it's like the idea behind, between

285
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:44,120
analog and digital, digital is ones and zeros, but analog is, is a curve, right?

286
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,120
With spikes and, and you know, signal processing and all sorts of extra complicated.

287
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,600
I mean, that's like the implementation of the math in computer science, but the digital

288
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,680
era sim simplifies it down into ones and zeros.

289
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:03,840
So it's, it's, I just think it's interesting that the computer science world is, is playing

290
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,680
with Legos and I am very fortunate in that that's exactly how I see my professional work

291
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,680
is I get paid to play with Legos.

292
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,240
I am the luckiest person ever.

293
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,440
I get paid to play and I solve puzzles, right?

294
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,800
So I'm sorry, I'm going to take all, I'm going to take some talking here.

295
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,600
In first grade, I was introduced to logic, right?

296
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,400
Via Einstein logic puzzles.

297
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,480
And if you're not familiar, Einstein logic puzzles are basically like clue in a word

298
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:32,480
puzzle, right?

299
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:38,920
So you get, you get like clues and you have like a grid of, of like scenarios and you're

300
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,800
trying to figure out who did what in what room, basically, but of various kinds.

301
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,840
And so this is the introduction of logic because you have clues and through the clues you can

302
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,480
deduce what, what has happened or who's done what.

303
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:57,960
And so from the very beginning, literally first grade, I was taught that logic is a

304
00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:58,960
game.

305
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,720
The implementation of logic is a game.

306
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,360
And so when I went into computing and engineering and computers, I'm playing now with logic

307
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:08,680
and it is a game.

308
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:14,240
And so I mean, I honestly try not to take things too seriously because it's all just

309
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,240
a game to me.

310
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,480
And, and I realized that like, depending on the situation of the scenario, it's not a

311
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,120
game, right, when you're launching people into space, you know, making sure that things

312
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,520
don't blow up is not really a game because people's lives are like at some base level,

313
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:31,520
it's a game to me.

314
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:32,520
It's a game.

315
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:33,520
I enjoy it.

316
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,440
You have found a beautiful way to gamify, you know, what is work, right?

317
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,840
Like what is to some a really painful thing to have to go do.

318
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,240
But for you, you've turned it into something beautiful.

319
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,880
And I love the Lego analogy, which I don't know if you noticed, but the built for dev

320
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,400
logo, which is very small in the top background, but that's exactly what that is based on.

321
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,080
Interesting is actually Lego blocks.

322
00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,160
And I have little command terminal prompt arrows in there because it's like, it's like

323
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,880
the Lego blocks of sort of developers, right?

324
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,080
We're like in this, we build things structurally, just like you said, sort of with those Legos,

325
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,440
but I'm like, it's not just Legos, right?

326
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,200
Because there's a, it isn't that simple.

327
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,160
We don't just get to stack things together, right?

328
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,480
It's like our Legos have to be interconnected and they have to work together and yes, maybe

329
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,160
you can do that with Legos and various pieces, but that's where I kind of brought the command

330
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,280
line sort of terminal vibe into it.

331
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,280
Yeah.

332
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,280
Yeah.

333
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,200
So my branding is very much aligned with your, your views on software engineering, which

334
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,200
is I like that.

335
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,200
I like that.

336
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,200
I do too.

337
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,200
I do too.

338
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,200
Okay.

339
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,040
So what do you do in your actual day to day?

340
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,720
Or if you can show your job title where you work or that sort of element, you know,

341
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,600
what are you up to these days in your, in your work play life?

342
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:46,600
Sure.

343
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:47,600
Sure.

344
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:48,600
Well, I haven't been told I'm not allowed to tell you.

345
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:49,600
So I will tell you.

346
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:50,600
Well, there we go.

347
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,720
The clients are maybe a little restricted, but I can tell you what I do.

348
00:16:53,720 --> 00:17:00,640
So my title, I'm a senior engineering manager, which means that I can manage and run teams.

349
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:11,600
I've been a team lead, but my, my personal skill area between, you know, the long history

350
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,720
of like speaking in public and being comfortable talking.

351
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:21,440
And of course, also being really deep down the rabbit hole with tech is I, I excel at

352
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,040
communicating technology to non-technical people.

353
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:33,840
I can break things down simply and explain it in ways that they understand a little better.

354
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:42,840
And so I specialize in communicating between like business people, so C-suite senior managers,

355
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:48,000
directors, into technical teams to make sure are we talking the same language?

356
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,700
And it's, and it's not really like a product role, although it's kind of adjacent, I suppose

357
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:55,640
in some ways.

358
00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:01,440
But that's kind of, that's kind of where I thrive is, is in that, in that area.

359
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,360
And I also love to be hands on.

360
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,360
Now, I, I'm one of those people who like, I'll code in my free time.

361
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:11,720
Like in college, I would miss parties to code and work on stuff because like I said, it's,

362
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:12,720
it's playing.

363
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:13,720
I'm playing.

364
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:14,720
I'm having fun.

365
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,680
Like it's not that I'm, you know, stressing out about stuff that sometimes you do.

366
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,160
But so it's, it's, it's very much play.

367
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:28,720
But for me, my role is to lead and be a leader and make sure that the team is doing what they

368
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,120
need to do.

369
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,240
I love teaching.

370
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,840
One of the things that my father said to me growing up is that Harris men, all Harris

371
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,160
men are either teachers or preachers.

372
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:45,000
And I, like I said, in my talk at the Commit your code conference, I am not likely to become

373
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,720
a preacher, but I, I love to teach.

374
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,440
And it's funny because I was thinking about that later.

375
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,120
It's like, I preach just not religiously, right?

376
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:58,360
I'll preach about acting code and seeing the praises of, of, of code patterns.

377
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:03,000
But I love explaining things to people and seeing the light come on.

378
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,200
That's really what, what really makes me happy.

379
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,280
And I'm sorry, I'm going off on tangents.

380
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,280
Don't apologize.

381
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,280
It's great.

382
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,040
Professionally, it's, it's about, it's about doing that and leading teams and, and making

383
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:23,640
sure that, that people are, are just, you know, that, that the, I work for a consultancy.

384
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,280
So it's that the client is getting what they want.

385
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:33,000
Oftentimes, if you've been in the role before, you know that what they say they want and

386
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,400
what they actually want, do not always line up.

387
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:37,400
Yep.

388
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,560
And, and so it's, it's about trying to understand what do you actually want?

389
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,920
What do you actually need versus what are you telling me?

390
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,760
Because you might have, you know, an exec might have like read a cool tech blog about this

391
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,760
new tech thing.

392
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:50,760
And it's like, oh, we need to use this.

393
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,720
And you're like, but that's actually not going to fit the problem that you're trying

394
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,440
to solve.

395
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,800
At the end of the day, they're writing the checks.

396
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,400
So sure, if you're, if you're hell bent on this particular piece of technology, okay,

397
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,480
but, but it's my job to be honest with you and be like, that's not going to solve your

398
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:09,480
problem.

399
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,480
Yep.

400
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,560
That's, that's so interesting because, gosh, I can't remember.

401
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,920
I want to say it might have been the Monday episode with Tim Banks, but I, I cannot recall,

402
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,360
but I do recall this exact conversation where we were talking about the type of developers

403
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,480
that we are and I feel the same exact way as you, like exactly.

404
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:34,720
I was the lead developer at many agencies before I got into sort of big tech and shifted

405
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,040
into more enterprise work.

406
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,320
And I was the one that talked to the clients and the clients notoriously were like, I want,

407
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,760
you know, this whatever it was, I want this and I want it to connect to this and do that.

408
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,320
And I'm like, okay, what's your end goal?

409
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,320
Right.

410
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:49,320
What is it?

411
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,520
Where is the end result that we are looking for and had those conversations in the same

412
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:58,920
way, right, of like, okay, you want this, you're over complicating it because it's really

413
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,560
just this, right?

414
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:01,720
It's just this feed.

415
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,840
It's just this sort of embed or it's whatever this integration.

416
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:12,640
And I absolutely loved it because I feel the same way and that I do enjoy technology very

417
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,480
much, but I started in business management.

418
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,120
And so I think coming from sort of a business space and then coming into tech, I look at

419
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,000
things differently, I think than traditional, you know, technical people.

420
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,360
And I think it's so important because at the end of the day, absolutely, we can build Legos

421
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:26,360
and we can build what we want.

422
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:27,360
We can have fun.

423
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:28,360
We can do puzzles.

424
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:29,360
We can do what we want.

425
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,600
But if we're deploying something for a customer or for an actual use case, the closer that

426
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,360
we are to understanding that, then the better than that result ends up being.

427
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,600
And for me, that's so powerful.

428
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,680
So I love what you shared.

429
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,160
And I think also really instilling that into some of the listeners because it has been a

430
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,600
theme throughout many of the interviews of this, this idea of understanding business in

431
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,040
a technological role, because that's where you will shine.

432
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,840
You will sort of separate yourself from the rest of the herd.

433
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,080
So I don't know if you have opinions on that too with your team, if you try to instill

434
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,840
sort of some of your thinking into that team so they can also level up in that way.

435
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,520
But yeah, I, I so, so, so much agree.

436
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:09,520
Absolutely.

437
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:10,520
Absolutely.

438
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,160
And I, I've, I'm very team centric.

439
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,960
I love working on a team.

440
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,440
We were talking beforehand, like I struggled to do things on my own, but like I love teams

441
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,760
and orchestrating teams and working with teams because when you work with teams and you all

442
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,800
pull in the same direction, magic happens.

443
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:34,160
And if you've ever worked on a high performing team, there's this driving urge and this driving

444
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:40,080
need to work on high performing teams again, because there's so little friction when everybody

445
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,920
knows what they're supposed to be doing.

446
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,880
Everybody understands where the team is going.

447
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,160
There's a lot less, like you don't need to micromanage because the people, the people

448
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,800
already know what they need to do.

449
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,240
And they're already fueled because they're like high, they're like high performance.

450
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,120
So they're like fueled by their own agenda and desires to win.

451
00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:59,160
And I think, I think that the, the leader of a team, whether it's the team leader, the

452
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,920
manager or even the director over like a lot of set of teams can really play a big role

453
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,320
because everybody's motivated by different things.

454
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,320
Right.

455
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:08,320
Exactly.

456
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,040
Somebody A just wants to be socially recognized in the group.

457
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,120
Somebody B, you know, needs, needs financial incentives.

458
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:20,240
Somebody else craves work-life balance and you have to give different people what they

459
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,760
need in order for them to thrive.

460
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,280
Everybody's a different kind of houseplant and you have to take care of them differently.

461
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,200
But if you are able to take care of them in the way that they need, they will give back

462
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,200
to you.

463
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:37,080
It's so critical to focus on the people because without the people, you don't have culture.

464
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,960
Without the people, you don't have teams.

465
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,360
Without the people, you have nothing.

466
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:45,480
And so if you don't focus on the people, what are you doing?

467
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:46,480
What's the point?

468
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,480
Right?

469
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:48,480
Preach.

470
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,480
Look at you.

471
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,040
You're a preacher and a teacher.

472
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,360
I will stand on my soapbox and say it all day long.

473
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:56,240
I'm, I'm a people person.

474
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,480
Oh, I really, really, really love that.

475
00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:59,480
Okay.

476
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,760
So in obviously leading teams, sometimes you don't have your hands in the, in the works

477
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:05,760
and building code.

478
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,720
How much of the percentage of your day are you actually writing code versus leading projects

479
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,120
and teams?

480
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,400
So like many answers in the world of software.

481
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,400
It depends.

482
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:25,120
I've, I've the last time I was a team lead, I said, I, the last, okay.

483
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:30,280
So the last time I was, I was leading, leading just like one team by itself, I was coding

484
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,160
20% of the time and I, it bothered me.

485
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,280
I didn't, I missed it.

486
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:43,480
But I, I trusted the people, I trusted the other seniors on the team to, to get the job

487
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,480
done.

488
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,640
And so it wasn't so bad, but I, my whole time was spending meetings.

489
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,520
That's not fun though.

490
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,480
It could have been emails, but it was, it was in a highly regulated industry that has

491
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:59,320
lots of bureaucracy, 10 levels of management between you and the person who actually makes

492
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,320
decisions.

493
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,360
And, and so things move slow and you have to play the game.

494
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:05,360
Yep.

495
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:12,160
And, and hopefully your, your bosses, bosses, bosses, like in a consultancy, like your bosses,

496
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,160
bosses, bosses knows their bosses, bosses, bosses.

497
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,280
And so you have a direct connection to the top and you can kind of like shortcut things

498
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,840
to get to make moves.

499
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:26,760
Because when you, when you're a, when you're a consultancy and you're being paid top dollar

500
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,880
to make, to, to deliver value, that's what it is at the end of the day.

501
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,320
We as a consultancy must deliver value in the value comes the form of working code.

502
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,560
So if there are things in our way that are preventing us from building working code,

503
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,960
from delivering the value, we got to tell somebody who can make decisions.

504
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:43,960
Yep.

505
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,960
Because we need to get unblocked.

506
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,000
And I forgot where I was going with that, but it's all about making sure that you can

507
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,080
deliver results at the end of the day.

508
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,080
Yes.

509
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,080
Oh, yes.

510
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,080
About my, my coding percentages.

511
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,080
I did.

512
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,320
I've also been, my, my favorite is probably 80, 20, where I'm coding 80% of the time and

513
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,200
I'm managing 20% of the time.

514
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,360
The 80, 20 rule shows up everywhere.

515
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:14,480
But for me on a team that is high performing, without getting deep into the weeds of forming,

516
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,960
storming, norming, performing, and how you interact with the different teams that they're

517
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,760
different, you know, synchronization stages.

518
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,200
A team that is performing needs much less coaching.

519
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,680
And so one of the things that I, I am big on, and I'll recommend this to, I recommend

520
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,840
this to everybody from every level, from junior all the way to senior to team leads, even

521
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,160
managers, but the people, especially the people who are ICs, the individual contributors,

522
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,560
the ones who are in the code is you have to do code reviews.

523
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,560
Yes.

524
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,280
Everybody must do code reviews.

525
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,240
And it's not, it's not because I need everybody to make critical comments on the code, but

526
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,440
more code you read, the more code you're exposed to, the better you get, the more, the more

527
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,600
perspectives you're exposed to.

528
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,160
And so you become better because you'll see something and you're like, what is this?

529
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,240
Why are they doing it this way?

530
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,120
And then you can go to the developer and be like, can you explain this to me?

531
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:12,760
And there's two outcomes from needing something explained to you.

532
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,160
One is because it's a normal pattern that you don't know.

533
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,160
Yep.

534
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:17,160
You haven't been exposed to before.

535
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,160
Fine.

536
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,160
We've all been there.

537
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,160
We've all done it.

538
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,000
The other reason is that it's an anti pattern and there's another way we're already doing

539
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,600
it and they shouldn't be doing that.

540
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:31,000
And so instead you uncovered a technical debt that is getting put into the pipeline.

541
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:37,440
And so my biggest thing about code review is I am strict with code reviews.

542
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,160
I don't let bad code into the code base because as soon as it's the code based, you have increased

543
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,160
tech debt.

544
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,560
And there's always a balance of tech debt versus managing tech debt.

545
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:53,240
And every time you add tech debt, you are, it's like, it's like borrowing on credit from

546
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,840
your future self.

547
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,880
And you're not going to be able to deliver debt because you are going to need to spend

548
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,680
time covering your tech debt.

549
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,400
And I asked probably one of the greatest scrum masters I've ever worked with.

550
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,560
I was like, can we, can we allocate like a sprint a quarter to tech debt?

551
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,720
And his answer was tech debt shouldn't get into the first place.

552
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,520
And I love it.

553
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,920
That's the theory.

554
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,600
Practically, I know, I know.

555
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,440
So the only way you can manage it is to step prevent it from going in.

556
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,440
And so I will give you a hundred comments on your PR.

557
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,680
I will tell you everything that's wrong.

558
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,040
I will, I will outline all the stuff you need to do.

559
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,880
And I will work with the team so that they understand here's what I expect.

560
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,520
And I will not merge your code.

561
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,320
I don't care for pushing deadlines.

562
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:48,000
I am not letting tech debt in because that's going to bite me later.

563
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,400
And I'm also big on testing.

564
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,760
I could go on a whole rant about testing.

565
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:57,640
But that's also part of it is like, is your code not only high quality, is it easily readable?

566
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,280
I want, here's my thing.

567
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,600
Yep.

568
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,840
My wife is much smarter than I am, but she, but she's non-technical.

569
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,000
My goal for any code that I write in a professional setting is that my wife needs to be able to

570
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,640
stand over my shoulder and read my code and tell me what it does.

571
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,080
The code should read like plain English.

572
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,920
People say, so, so there's, there's kind of two camps, right, between comments and not

573
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:20,920
comments.

574
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,960
I tend to err on the side of not comments.

575
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,000
I do comment when things are weird or like, this is an anti pattern that we kind of need.

576
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,880
And here's why here's the logic behind it.

577
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,520
Come fix it later.

578
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,680
Makes sense.

579
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,320
But a lot of the time, you know, comments get added and then the code changes and the

580
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,320
comments don't get updated.

581
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,320
So they become.

582
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:42,040
Tech time are not really like that, but like they become obsolete or in worst case, misleading.

583
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,880
And so exactly misleading is awful because you're chasing.

584
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:52,840
But if you can write your code in such a way where you read it, it makes sense and you

585
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,560
don't have to think about it.

586
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,280
You're going to have a better time because honestly, as a dev, you spend more time reading

587
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,200
code than you do writing code.

588
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,240
Whether you're reading code live in your editor to implement new features or fixed bugs, or

589
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,480
whether you're reading it in pull requests or code reviews, you're reading a lot of code.

590
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,040
And so my whole thing is the more brain cells I need to figure out what your code is doing,

591
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,040
the less I like it.

592
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,040
Yep.

593
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Well, I mean, and speaking to you said a whole bunch of really amazing things in there, but

594
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,040
speaking to you and wanting to code 80, 20, right?

595
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:31,120
You just gave a whole bunch of hints and tricks and tips to anyone who was a manager who would

596
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,120
like to be coding 80, 20, because essentially that's what it comes down to is good leadership,

597
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,120
right?

598
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,880
So as a leader, if that's what you're looking to do, you want to be able to invest and actually

599
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,800
partake in that team as a contributor with your development skills, you have to be the

600
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,240
leader that you just explained.

601
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,240
You have to be diligent.

602
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,560
You have to be learning.

603
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:48,560
You have to be teaching.

604
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,920
They have to be diving into things.

605
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,560
You have to be reviewing that, mentoring.

606
00:30:52,560 --> 00:31:00,480
To me, it sounds like you are an amazing engineering leader that has found the patch and hack and

607
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,560
tricks to be able to stay an engineer while also being an engineering leader, which is

608
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,120
not an easy thing to do.

609
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,120
No, it's not.

610
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,120
It's not.

611
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,400
There's something that's critically important about this dynamic, though, that I didn't

612
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,800
touch on and I'll call it out.

613
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,480
It revolves around an idealistic team structure.

614
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:26,480
So again, I was a Boy Scout and so I relate high-performing teams to my days in scouting

615
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:33,520
because that's when I was on the highest number of high-performing teams was around scouts.

616
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,040
But putting that in a coding perspective and in a professional software setting, there

617
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,360
are two leaders on the team.

618
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:40,360
Okay.

619
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,560
I have a lot of side tangents here.

620
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,720
There are two leaders on the team.

621
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,440
One is the team lead by title, by role.

622
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,600
The team leads job is to interact with people outside of the team and make sure that the

623
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,600
team is moving in the direction that the company wants them to go, that they are interacting

624
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,220
with other teams around them in the same way.

625
00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:07,440
So I'll refer to them as an external team lead.

626
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:13,800
They are spending 80% of their time with external people, functions, teams, et cetera.

627
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:20,360
And then there has to be an internal team lead whose job is to make sure that the external

628
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:26,800
team lead is understood and the ideas are properly communicated to the rest of the

629
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,280
team because you have to have somebody with who's basically in there at least 80% of the

630
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,440
time, boots on the ground, making sure that things are running smoothly, that people aren't

631
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,620
blocked because if I'm in meetings 80% of my day, I can't be getting into the nitty gritty

632
00:32:41,620 --> 00:32:43,480
of why your code is stuck.

633
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:49,920
But I need somebody who I can trust, who the team trusts to do that because it's a critical

634
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,920
role.

635
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:56,160
It's, again, being very team oriented, speaking about mob programming, it's all about coming

636
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,320
together to overcome the obstacles.

637
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:06,000
And I will say one more thing because on the tangent of leadership, one of the best pieces

638
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,280
of advice I ever got was from, we call it the people team, which is a nice way to say

639
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:11,280
HR.

640
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:19,240
The head of our team was giving a talk and he said, leadership is an active role.

641
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,160
If you want to be a leader on your team, you cannot sit on your heels and be expected to

642
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,720
be called on.

643
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,920
If you want to be a leader on your team, you must step up, you must take responsibility,

644
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,440
you must follow through, you must communicate.

645
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:38,680
And the reason I tote code reviews is because that is the easiest way to become a leader.

646
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,640
That's a really good litmus test, right?

647
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,640
Because as you start reviewing codes, you start seeing, you start to see the patterns,

648
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,400
you start to understand what the team is doing, you start to call out.

649
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,080
And as soon as you start to make critical comments on people's code and it's not attack

650
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,760
the problem, not the person, be hard on the problem, not the person.

651
00:33:53,760 --> 00:34:00,080
The team is there and you're trying to make the team grow, but be critical of the code

652
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:09,520
so that it's all contiguous or all looks, the idea, the hope for teams is that no team,

653
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,280
you can't look at a piece of code and tell who wrote it.

654
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,280
Yeah.

655
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,280
Yeah.

656
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,280
That's beautiful.

657
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,880
That would be beautiful, right?

658
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,480
Because the team's working together on the same vein.

659
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:27,280
I want to throw out a book recommendation for anyone listening, Rise by Patty Azarello

660
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,880
is a very, very good book.

661
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,520
And it speaks to everything that you just said.

662
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,640
And I feel like it's a very enlightening book for engineers to pick up because we're

663
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,800
good at certain things, right?

664
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,080
We're very good at sort of the do better.

665
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,080
We're good.

666
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,080
And so she's got three different sections.

667
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,040
It's like do better, connect better and something else.

668
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,160
But the do better, right?

669
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,760
We are always like, how do we get better?

670
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:50,760
How do I write better code?

671
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,880
How do I learn new?

672
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,760
And so devs are amazing at do better.

673
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,840
We are horrible at the communication and the actually highlighting of our work and the

674
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:07,360
impact that we're driving and truly getting to that place of self-advocating for a promotion

675
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,760
or self-advocating for growth and some of those things.

676
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,440
And so you spoke to a lot of different dynamics that I learned in that book.

677
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,920
And so I just wanted to share that because it's just a very powerful book.

678
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:16,920
It's called Rise.

679
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:17,920
Strongly recommend.

680
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,920
Yeah.

681
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,000
It's called Rise with a Z. So R-I-Z-E. Patty Azarello.

682
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,000
Two Zs in the last one.

683
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Thank you all on that playlist.

684
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,000
Yeah, you should.

685
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,000
Okay.

686
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Talking to you could, honestly, I could talk to you for hours and hours.

687
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,960
And we're like already sort of nearing the end of the time, but I'm like not even close

688
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,640
to all the questions I want to ask you.

689
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,080
So super quick.

690
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,360
What's your preferred tech stack?

691
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,720
So I know you're in consulting and so sometimes that means you might be working from different

692
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:45,040
projects and doing different things.

693
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,920
So what do you get to get your hands in then?

694
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,520
Does it vary or are you sort of a specific tech shop?

695
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,520
And that's what you work on.

696
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,920
Personally, again, depends on what I'm doing.

697
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,040
If I'm going for speed and rapid development, I'll pick what I'm most comfortable with.

698
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,400
And that's my general recommendation of anybody.

699
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:01,400
It's like, what's your tech stack?

700
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:02,920
It's like, what are you comfortable with?

701
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,240
And the beauty of JavaScript or in my case, always TypeScript, never raw JavaScript or

702
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:11,920
vanilla JavaScript is going to be a full stack TypeScript application.

703
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,760
I've been learning Go as I miss, I miss, there's something beautiful about Go.

704
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,960
Go is like if TypeScript and C++ had a baby and it's beautiful.

705
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:27,120
I honestly, I didn't expect to like it as much as I did.

706
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,520
But Go is wonderful for lots of reasons.

707
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,920
So highly recommend checking it out.

708
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,440
But if I had to just pick a tech stack to go and run with, it would be TypeScript.

709
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,200
But I guess that's not a tech stack.

710
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,200
That's a language.

711
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,200
Got it.

712
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,120
So I'm a React front-end React guy.

713
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,840
I actually learned React native before I learned React.

714
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,680
So it may even be Expo because Expo now has React native and React web kind of all together.

715
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,080
So you can build websites and mobile apps because depending on the client, it's like,

716
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,080
we want to cross-platform app.

717
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,920
We also want a website and they all need to be in sync.

718
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,880
And the easiest way to do that is to not have three or four code bases for iOS, for

719
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,720
Android, for web.

720
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:02,280
So you can just do Expo.

721
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,280
Great.

722
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,560
It's still, you know, we're still getting all the kinks worked out, but Expo is really

723
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:07,560
good.

724
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,120
And then for backend, it's going to be a Node.js app.

725
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,360
And I've done Nest.

726
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,680
I've done, you know, home done, express, fastify.

727
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:22,320
I started working with Hono just because I saw people cheering it on.

728
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,240
But if I'm in a professional setting, and this is a key part, if I'm in a professional

729
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,280
setting, it's going to be Nest.

730
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,280
Nest.js.

731
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,000
It's got like a lion, not next.js, but Nest.

732
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,000
Yes.

733
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,320
And the reason for that is because it's a framework.

734
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,080
And personally, I'm not big on frameworks because they're very prescriptive on how you're

735
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,080
supposed to do things.

736
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,000
But the idea behind using frameworks in a professional environment is that it is prescriptive in

737
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,440
how you're supposed to do things.

738
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,440
Because I don't want people making their own patterns for things.

739
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,480
I don't want you to be able to say, I have this issue.

740
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:52,960
Let me go read the documentation.

741
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,840
How does the documentation recommend that you do this?

742
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,000
And that way, in it's consistent over time.

743
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,840
Because if you have a long lived coding project, if your repo is five or 10 years old, you're

744
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,160
going to have a lot of developers come through.

745
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,440
You're going to have a lot of different leads.

746
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,080
A lot of people are going to touch this code.

747
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:13,240
And so more consistent, you can keep it the less tech debt you're going to have over time.

748
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,920
And the more, again, value it's going to be able to deliver.

749
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,520
It's going to be more easy to work on.

750
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,880
It's going to be more easy to move around.

751
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,280
And so the hope is you pick something that's mature and tested in high use production environments.

752
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,960
And Nest is kind of my go-to there.

753
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,440
I like that.

754
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:29,440
Okay.

755
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:30,440
Yeah.

756
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:31,440
I love that.

757
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,600
That was a very good answer.

758
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,200
Because you explained why you explained on your personal side, you explained more on

759
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,200
the business side.

760
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:40,200
That was beautiful.

761
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:41,200
Okay.

762
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,400
I love that.

763
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,800
So as it relates to sort of your, I guess, like your setup, right?

764
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,880
What are the tools that you use on a day to day basis?

765
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,320
Just the tools that you're like, I can't live without these.

766
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,320
If they disappeared, you'd like maybe shed a tear.

767
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,360
What are those tools?

768
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,200
I don't have any die hard tools.

769
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,320
I need categories of tools.

770
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,320
I know, right?

771
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:04,320
I need categories.

772
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,640
Oh, categories.

773
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,040
I need a diagramming software.

774
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,000
You can use Xtalligar, you can draw IO, you can use Miro.

775
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,000
Doesn't matter.

776
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,000
I need something to draw pictures.

777
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,400
I'm a very visual person.

778
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,600
You can communicate ideas very easily with pictures.

779
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:23,640
And so draw IO is cool because for people who use VS code, there's a draw IO extension.

780
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,040
So you can have dry, oh, rendered in your editor and you can commit things.

781
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,880
So if you have like architecture diagrams, you can put them in your repo version control

782
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,000
them and see as they go along.

783
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,000
Excellent.

784
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,000
Love that, right?

785
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,520
It all boils down to like XML at the end of the day.

786
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,160
I've been using Miro.

787
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,000
I use Miro on my last project.

788
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,000
It's great.

789
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,000
I love it.

790
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,720
Very effective, especially if you have like the premium version unlocked.

791
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:47,720
Yep.

792
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:49,520
Lots of people use that too.

793
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,120
So sometimes it's nice to just get some of those templates and other beautiful things

794
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,120
that go on the marketplace.

795
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,320
I highly recommend the Jira suite or sorry, the Atlassian suite.

796
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,600
So that's Jira Confluence and the bajillion other things that they do.

797
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,680
Jira for your task management, whether it's scrum or Kanban or however you're organizing

798
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,040
your team tracking and then Confluence for like kind of the wiki aspect of it.

799
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,880
I kind of just, because I think there's beauty in simplification.

800
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:21,600
And so the fewer tools you need to get the full job done, the better off everybody is.

801
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,600
And that's again why I like TypeScript for a full tech stack because one developer can

802
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,680
work on touch everything.

803
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:33,200
But the other, to answer your question about like what do I need, I'm going to give a huge

804
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,680
shout out to Vim and specifically I'm a Neo Vim user.

805
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,960
You know, and there's a lot of memes about that, but I won't mean myself.

806
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:51,440
The idea is that, and it doesn't need to be the Neo Vim editor specifically.

807
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,600
It's what I use.

808
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:58,120
But like I started with the VS code with Vim motions.

809
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,680
I am a shortcut junk.

810
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:07,160
Any like really bad, like if I have to go like find something in a menu, I'm mad about

811
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,160
it.

812
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,600
And so VS code is really good at having shortcuts for everything.

813
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,840
And so I'm sitting there working doing a live coding session with my manager four or five

814
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,080
years ago.

815
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,200
And his cursor is in the middle of a word and then I hear his keyboard click and the

816
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,280
word disappears.

817
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,200
And I'm sitting there thinking about it being like, all right, so I use a Mac.

818
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:35,800
So it's like I could command left backspace, like command left, command backspace to like

819
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,400
jump to the other word and delete the word, but he didn't do any of that.

820
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,400
And what is that?

821
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:41,640
And he was like, oh, that's Vim motions.

822
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,040
It was just DIW, delete, delete inner word.

823
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,680
And I was like, what?

824
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,760
And so I started down the rabbit hole of Vim motion.

825
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,680
And it's hard to explain to people the beauty of it.

826
00:41:54,680 --> 00:42:00,720
But the best analogy I've come up with is imagine your grandmother copying and pasting

827
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:04,920
something from a webpage in general.

828
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,360
Your grandmother is on her computer copying and pasting.

829
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:08,800
She's going to take her mouse.

830
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,240
She's going to go up.

831
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:12,760
She's going to click and drag and select.

832
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,520
She's going to right click and click copy.

833
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,680
She's going to go into the application.

834
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,720
She wants to paste it and she's going to click right click.

835
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:19,720
She's going to paste it.

836
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:23,920
And you're like, grandma, just control C, control V, please, just do it.

837
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:24,920
It's like that.

838
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,120
But she might also go all the way up to the navigation bar and not even right click because

839
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,120
that might not even be a case.

840
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:37,040
And so after you get used to Vim motions, it's like this, but for normal developers.

841
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,320
And so that's kind of what it feels like sometimes watching people program that aren't Vim.

842
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,480
And that sounds so elitist.

843
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,640
And I feel kind of bad saying it, but like it's kind of, it's kind of true.

844
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:54,200
Like people, you don't know until you've been on the other side of it, right?

845
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,320
And Vim is one of those things that you have to rewire your brain for.

846
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,840
But it's to the point now where I get mad if I can't use Vim motions and things.

847
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,520
And it's interesting also because you start to, you start to, you start to like, you'll

848
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,320
hit buttons in non Vim applications and sometimes they work.

849
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,120
And you're like, oh, these developers use Vim.

850
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,120
I noticed.

851
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:20,600
Like, so example, example in, in, um, in, I use Alfred, but I actually, it may be the

852
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,480
way in spotlight search just in Mac.

853
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,200
Uh, is it?

854
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:25,640
Yeah, it's all muscle memory.

855
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,560
So like I look at the keyboard and I can't tell you what keys it is, but in Vim, uh,

856
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,720
P and N are for previous and next in a list.

857
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:37,840
And so in, in spotlight, you can hit, I'm pretty sure it's control N to go down the

858
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,800
list and same thing in Chrome control N to go down the list.

859
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,640
And like, so I don't have to move my hand off of home row.

860
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,920
I don't have to find the arrow keys.

861
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,760
I don't have to find my, I use a track pad, but like, I don't have to find my track pad.

862
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560
It's just it's hands on the keyboard all the time.

863
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,200
And it's one of those things like Vim gave me a 20% productivity boost.

864
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,000
So I'm, I'm going to shout it to the high heavens all the time.

865
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,560
And you throw AI on top of it, which gives another 30 to 40% productivity boost.

866
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,520
So if you think, if you don't use Vim motions and you think you're productive with AI, try

867
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:08,600
Vim motions.

868
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,960
It takes like six months to rewire your brain.

869
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,880
And here I'm four years in and I'm still learning about stuff because Vim has been around.

870
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,520
I guess it was Vi before that.

871
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,160
And it was, there were even editors before that, right?

872
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,900
But it's, it's been around for like 40 years, 30 or 40 years at this point.

873
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:31,640
And so it's tried and true and tested and highly effective.

874
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,280
So it's one of those things like I highly recommend everybody check it out.

875
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,280
It's weird.

876
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,280
It's hard.

877
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,280
You have to have patience with yourself.

878
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,220
What's frustrating is your learning, but learning is that way.

879
00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:47,360
And so when you come out the other side and you feel like a super human, it's, it's worth,

880
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,360
it's worth it.

881
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,600
I remember in college, we had, I had a professor who used Vim and I literally could not keep

882
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,880
up with him as he was coding live in class because he's just jumping everywhere and making

883
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,840
edits and yank and pasting and moving things.

884
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,320
And I'm like, where is your cursor?

885
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:04,840
I don't get it.

886
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,760
So it's almost like you can move around your editor and your files and your code at the

887
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,080
speed of thought, if you will.

888
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:20,920
There's just a lot less friction between having to navigate or move or copy and paste or delete

889
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,320
things or it's a deep rabbit hole.

890
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,440
So if you want to embark on it, I highly recommend it, but it's not for everybody.

891
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,720
But you can get the VS Code plugin, you can turn it on if you want to try, you can turn

892
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:33,720
it off.

893
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:38,960
The Primogen, who's been a huge content creator in the dev community for years now, has some

894
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,480
great VIM tutorials.

895
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:42,480
That's how I learned.

896
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,880
I highly recommend checking them out.

897
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,400
His whole shtick is like, learn four, five keys at a time.

898
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,400
Use them for a week.

899
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:50,400
It used to.

900
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,400
That's nice.

901
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,840
And then as soon as you're comfortable with it, learn a couple more and build slow.

902
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,120
It's like learning any language.

903
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,080
Go slow, take your time, have patience with yourself.

904
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,080
Are you okay?

905
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,240
Yeah.

906
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:04,500
I love that.

907
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:08,600
So that definitely sounds like the tool that you would shed a tear over if it were to just

908
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,600
disappear.

909
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:10,600
Yeah, VIM motions.

910
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:11,600
I would cry.

911
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,600
I love that.

912
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,600
Okay.

913
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,720
Last question, even though, again, we could talk forever.

914
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:23,120
When you are stuck, what do you do to get unstuck?

915
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:29,920
Similarly to apply to that sort of, how does that play into some of your decision making?

916
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,720
I'll let you take that.

917
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:32,720
As you will.

918
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:43,400
So I am guilty of the idea that if I'm stuck on something, I got 10 things in my brain I

919
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:44,900
can try.

920
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:46,280
So I'm going to just run on the list, right?

921
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:47,280
This is the most likely.

922
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,280
Oh, that's not it.

923
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:49,280
I'm going to do a second.

924
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:50,280
That's not it.

925
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:51,280
I'm going to go to the third.

926
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,680
And by the end of the 10th, by the end of the 10th item, I'm like, I could try this,

927
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,520
or I could try this, or I could try this.

928
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,480
And the beautiful thing about software is the rapid feedback loops, which is actually what

929
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,400
I wanted to talk about in my conference talk, by the way, was feedback loops.

930
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,320
But the interesting have fast feedback loops.

931
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,160
It takes me a second to try another thing.

932
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:18,240
And so in an hour, I can try 3,600 things math, you know, 60 times 60, 60 seconds a

933
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:19,240
minute.

934
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:20,240
Yeah.

935
00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:21,240
Yeah.

936
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:22,240
Yeah.

937
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:23,240
Okay.

938
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:24,240
That should be right.

939
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:25,240
So, you know, I can try a bunch of things.

940
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:29,160
And so I am guilty of, but I haven't tried this yet, but I haven't tried this yet.

941
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:34,360
So the, the, the idea is that can be, that can be bad though.

942
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,360
It's not good.

943
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,440
Like you have to time box stuff.

944
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,240
So usually it's 20 minutes.

945
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:44,400
If I'm, if I'm in like a professional setting, it's 20 minutes.

946
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,800
And lately with the introduction of AI, if you're allowed to use it on your projects,

947
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,880
you go talk to AI and you get the problem.

948
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:50,880
Yeah.

949
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,080
But totally, I might recommend that you talk to your teammates before you talk, like not

950
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,040
necessarily before you talk to AI, but to pretend, but depending on what you're stuck

951
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,440
on, talk to your teammates.

952
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,440
Absolutely.

953
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,200
And I, I could get into my talk and where it was and about talking to your teammates

954
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,880
and building up relations and building community and how that affects your whole like professional

955
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,240
trajectory and it's a whole thing.

956
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:14,160
I got a rant, but I know we're low on time.

957
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:15,160
So I'll spare you.

958
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,840
But the idea is you got to time box yourself.

959
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,000
You got to say, if I'm stuck for 15 minutes, I'm going to talk to somebody and that is

960
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,240
just my general rule of thumb for, for my team and I tell them that at the beginning,

961
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:29,880
it's like, if you're stuck, try it, try, try four or five things.

962
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,360
If they don't work, pay me.

963
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,160
I would rather you bother me because you're stuck because my job, the whole, the whole

964
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,800
idea, okay, try not to make this a whole rant too.

965
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,800
I'm, I'm going on.

966
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,400
That's, that's the name of the game.

967
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:46,400
Servant leadership.

968
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,920
And the idea behind servant leadership is if you're unaware is that it is your boss's

969
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,560
job to make sure that you are not stuck.

970
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:55,080
Your boss serves you.

971
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,800
It's not the other way around.

972
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,160
And so, yes.

973
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,160
Thank you.

974
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,160
Preach, preach, preach seriously.

975
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,400
Or my soapbox.

976
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:10,120
But the whole concept is if I am the lead, I expect you to tell me I'm stuck.

977
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,000
I expect you to post and slack.

978
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,000
Exactly.

979
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,000
Hey team, I'm stuck.

980
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,000
Who's free?

981
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,280
They're, they're neat. I love having a slack channel that's dedicated to junior dev questions.

982
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,880
And it's things, and I expect seniors to post it.

983
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,280
It's like, I don't remember.

984
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:28,560
I have to Google it.

985
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,400
Like, you know, like there's stuff that it's like, depending on the dynamics around it,

986
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:34,400
it's actually quite difficult.

987
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:35,400
Exactly.

988
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,320
And so like, there are things that's like, I should know this answer, but I don't.

989
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,560
And so it's not, it's not to like, you know, harp on junior devs or anything, but it's

990
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:46,040
like, these are the questions that I, these are like base level questions that I probably

991
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,240
should know, but I don't.

992
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:50,600
And it's important that again, kind of go back to leadership and team dynamics, that

993
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:56,800
you foster a team culture where it is acceptable and encouraged to reach out when you're stuck.

994
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,040
Because if you have people who are stuck and they're stuck for hours, they get stuck for

995
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,840
days, they'll be stuck for weeks.

996
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,120
I've seen people get stuck for a month and it's like, this is bad.

997
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,360
This is very bad, especially as a consultant, like I said, our whole thing is to deliver

998
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,360
value.

999
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:10,920
If you're stuck, you're not delivering value.

1000
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,360
So work with me, talk to me.

1001
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,520
If I'm not available, I'll, I'll, I'll ping somebody else and be like, Hey, I need you

1002
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,640
to go work with this person because they're stuck.

1003
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:20,640
Exactly.

1004
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:21,640
Like, exactly.

1005
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,400
And it, and it, and when that happens to like, when that sort of, and it happens quickly,

1006
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:27,400
right?

1007
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,000
If you don't ask for help, it, that hour turns into days, days turns into the weeks, weeks

1008
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,200
turns into months, and it happens very quickly.

1009
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,320
And when it does happen, you end up getting in this like little Kramudjan bucket because

1010
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,640
I've seen it happen with developers that I've also led.

1011
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,800
Where they get in this very negative depressive state, right?

1012
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,040
Because they, they are continuing to try to fight a fight that they are losing and they

1013
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:52,320
don't have the ability to actually, you know, sort of grab the reins and actually chase that

1014
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,320
down.

1015
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,320
So I love that.

1016
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:55,320
I love that.

1017
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:56,320
That's a very good feedback.

1018
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,080
I was going to say something in my brain, just like completely forgot what it was, but

1019
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,120
whatever it was you shared was amazing.

1020
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,120
So thank you.

1021
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,440
I, like I said, kind of before we live is I live a lot of, I live a lot of my life in

1022
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,880
my head and I spend a lot of time thinking about my thoughts, which is very meta, but

1023
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:16,920
like I, I like to think that I have things that are at least interesting to hear.

1024
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,440
So I, I, I appreciate the feedback.

1025
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,440
Yeah.

1026
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:21,440
Of course.

1027
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:22,440
Okay.

1028
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:27,320
So we got to talk about this before the call and I think that it was a really cool fact

1029
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:28,320
to learn about you.

1030
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,280
So you shared with me that you had your coffee and that you felt like Superman.

1031
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:39,240
I would love if you're open to it to share your story on coffee, because I first off

1032
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:42,560
think you have some major self discipline and I just think it's very respectable.

1033
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:43,560
Thank you.

1034
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:44,560
Thank you.

1035
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,840
I am an open book, generally speaking.

1036
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,360
So I'm happy, happy to share.

1037
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:50,960
I don't, it's, it's hard.

1038
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,920
I don't, I don't lie because I have a hard time remembering what I lied to people about.

1039
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,800
I'm usually going to tell the truth.

1040
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,600
So coffee, I drink coffee on Fridays.

1041
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,320
Friday is my coffee day.

1042
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,000
Every once in a while, I'll take a sip of my wife's coffee if I'm really dragging one

1043
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,480
morning, but literally just like a sip.

1044
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:14,400
And the reason for that is that when you drink coffee, if you're not used to it, the first

1045
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:20,480
time you drink coffee, you feel like Superman in my case, you feel like Superman and I can

1046
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,080
take on the world and I'm excited and I'm full of ideas.

1047
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:29,240
And the idea behind doing it on a Friday is that usually Friday is the day where you're

1048
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:32,560
dragging your, you've been through a week of work through the slog.

1049
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,920
And you're tired and you're grumpy and you just want to be left alone.

1050
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,280
And I've certainly been there, but for me, coffee on Fridays really takes the last day

1051
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,200
of the week and like cranks it up to an 11.

1052
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,080
And it just makes me jazzed and I'm excited and I want to get things done.

1053
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,800
And I'm stoked in my to-do list just gets destroyed on Fridays.

1054
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,280
And so it's, it's all about, it's all about feeling like Superman.

1055
00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:00,600
And so, you know, if you, if you have, if you're not to harp on regular coffee drinkers,

1056
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,960
but if you are a regular coffee drinker, which I certainly have been before the first time

1057
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:05,960
you drink it, you feel like Superman.

1058
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,680
And then the next day you feel like 75% of Superman and the third day is 50% of Superman.

1059
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,440
Eventually you're drinking coffee just to function.

1060
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,360
And I, I want to, I want to feel like Superman more often.

1061
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:18,360
Right.

1062
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:23,040
So, so by doing it just on Fridays, I can get that, that, that super charged feeling

1063
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,280
by once a week.

1064
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,400
So it's, that's, that's kind of my coffee routine.

1065
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,720
This is my treat.

1066
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:31,760
I, I loved that so much.

1067
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,520
And honestly, so I'm going to be totally transparent.

1068
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:40,520
Um, we have a two year old and my husband normally takes two year old duty.

1069
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:41,680
I'm the one that works.

1070
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:42,680
He's a stay at home dad.

1071
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,920
He does actually do some farming and some other stuff, but for the most part he's got

1072
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,320
child responsibility.

1073
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,440
And so he didn't sleep well the night before.

1074
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,480
So I took child responsibility last night.

1075
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,280
I didn't fall asleep till like 1am for some weird reason.

1076
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:55,280
And then I, I know.

1077
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,120
And then I woke up and that's like, I go to bed at nine.

1078
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:58,360
I'm like, total old person.

1079
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:59,360
I go to bed early.

1080
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,160
Um, so that's not cool.

1081
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,680
Like I'm anyways, you know how I'm feeling, right?

1082
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,440
So I wake up at five and I can't really get back to sleep.

1083
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,160
And then my toddler wakes up at six.

1084
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,760
So I got maybe four hours of sleep last night on a positive side.

1085
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:20,960
Um, so when I came in to talk with you, you were like just a, like a bottle of energy.

1086
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,920
And normally that is, that is how I am.

1087
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,520
I'm usually just full of energy, but I came into and I was like, okay, harness the energy

1088
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,280
Tessa, you are tired today, but you can do it.

1089
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,520
And your energy like absolutely just fueled me.

1090
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,040
So I just wanted to call that out because I was having one of those Friday mornings,

1091
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,240
non related to it being Friday, but still felt that way.

1092
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:43,480
And you very much, um, reinvigorated my energy.

1093
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:44,480
And it was just really,

1094
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:45,480
Energy is contagious.

1095
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,080
I just wanted to share that.

1096
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,640
It is, it is contagious.

1097
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,120
I agree with that.

1098
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,120
Okay.

1099
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,760
Well, lots has been discussed.

1100
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,680
There is probably a lot of really awesome follow up questions or folks that, you know,

1101
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,520
would like to get to know you more.

1102
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,600
You're a very interesting, awesome person.

1103
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,040
I got to meet you at commit your code.

1104
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,240
So side note to anybody, um, commit your code was a conference in Dallas.

1105
00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:08,920
The videos are on the internet.

1106
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,800
You absolutely need to check out Noah's talk.

1107
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,520
He did a fabulous job on a really cool topic.

1108
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:18,360
Um, was it, was it called mom programming or what exactly was the title?

1109
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,920
The title was intentionally click baby so that people would come to my talk.

1110
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,360
Uh, it was called benefits of joining the mob.

1111
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:25,880
I thought it apt.

1112
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:26,880
Yes.

1113
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:27,880
Yes.

1114
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,400
I thought it was an apt title.

1115
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:30,400
Yes.

1116
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:31,400
It's perfect.

1117
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:32,400
So go check that out.

1118
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,480
It's out on the Dallas software meetup group out there.

1119
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:41,240
Um, definitely look it up, but where can folks find you outside of that presentation

1120
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:42,560
if they are looking to connect?

1121
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,720
Uh, I'm on, I'm on LinkedIn.

1122
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:47,080
That's probably the easiest way for the general public to find me.

1123
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,680
I admit that I'm not good at social media.

1124
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:50,680
I'm, I'm working on it.

1125
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,520
I'm getting better.

1126
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,520
But I'm also on blue sky and the reason I'm not on Twitter is because I just use Twitter

1127
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,200
to troll politicians and I don't want to connect that to my real, my real self.

1128
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:01,800
So you can find me on blue sky.

1129
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,280
You can find me on Twitter.

1130
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,240
Pretty sure it's in Harris 31.

1131
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:06,400
I can, I can actually look that up.

1132
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,200
I should, something I should know off the bat.

1133
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,880
Um, hey, that happens sometimes though.

1134
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,320
If you don't care about social media as much then, you know, I was right.

1135
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,680
And it was 31.

1136
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:19,560
So you could find me there.

1137
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:20,880
Blue sky Twitter.

1138
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,640
Um, that's, those are the good ones to find me.

1139
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,200
That's, that's, that's where I try to not be an anonymous fly on the wall.

1140
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,240
I'm on other socials, but I'm a lurker there.

1141
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:32,240
So you probably won't find me.

1142
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:33,720
All right.

1143
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:34,720
Awesome.

1144
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:39,400
Well, LinkedIn is honestly pretty poppin and pretty, um, pretty active honestly in

1145
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,200
the software engineering and sort of technical space right now anyways.

1146
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,560
So it seems like most are like, just find me on LinkedIn, which is a, such a change from

1147
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,680
previous years, but it's exciting.

1148
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:49,680
Yeah.

1149
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:50,680
This has been lovely.

1150
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:52,840
I have enjoyed this conversation so much.

1151
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,760
Um, folks, check out his presentation.

1152
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,680
It was so powerful and very good.

1153
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,840
Uh, Noah, thank you so much for your time.

1154
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,680
Any parting words you want to share with folks before I hit that end stream button,

1155
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:02,680
you gotta find your tribe.

1156
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:04,200
You gotta find your people.

1157
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,720
I, I over COVID.

1158
00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:13,280
I suffered from self induced isolation and going to commit your code reminded me how much

1159
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:18,640
I needed people in the tech community to talk with, talk shop with, get nerdy with,

1160
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,240
because people in tech, if you're in tech, the people in tech around you are going to

1161
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,600
get excited about the things you get excited about and build friend.

1162
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:26,600
That's how you build connections.

1163
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,520
And so Tessa, I want to say thank you so much for inviting me.

1164
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,120
I, I am glad that we got to connect.

1165
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,600
I'm glad we got to go to commit your code.

1166
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,040
I am invigorated.

1167
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:43,080
I'm actually starting a code and coffee chapter, I guess here in Buffalo, New York to kind

1168
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,080
of get that started.

1169
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:46,200
Yay.

1170
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,640
And I am, my whole life has been re-invigorated since, since the conference.

1171
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,720
So that's my, that those are my parting words is find, find your tribe, find your people,

1172
00:57:54,720 --> 00:58:01,280
get out of your house, especially if you work from home and, you know, be, be a light for

1173
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,840
others.

1174
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:05,120
I agree.

1175
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:10,040
And just to add a really super quick layer on top of that, I felt the same way about

1176
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:11,040
commit your code.

1177
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:12,560
I have been in my own business.

1178
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,320
I got laid off in early last year.

1179
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,760
I had been in my own business for most of the year and I just felt like I was just grinding

1180
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:23,120
and it was, I was getting to like a depressive state, honestly.

1181
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,400
And when I went to commit your code, it was like, everything just re-lit up again.

1182
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,960
And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is it.

1183
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:30,960
This is it.

1184
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:36,040
And this is like, and I said it in a tweet during the event that, you know, definitely

1185
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:40,320
spread a little bit around the event, but developers are not anti-social.

1186
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:41,720
We sometimes we can feel like that.

1187
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,360
We feel like we need isolation.

1188
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,560
We don't actually need isolation as humans.

1189
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:46,560
We don't need it.

1190
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:47,960
We need people.

1191
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:53,880
But if you do fall into that bucket, go find those developer curated channels is what I

1192
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:54,880
call them.

1193
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,920
So Danny decided he wanted to organize that event.

1194
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,720
He brought a crew of developers together.

1195
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:01,280
There isn't a corporate agenda.

1196
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,260
There's not a 100 K booth setup.

1197
00:59:04,260 --> 00:59:09,720
It's a developer event where you can go and spend time with your peers because we desperately

1198
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:10,720
need it.

1199
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:15,000
And when we get it, just like we did, it refuels you for honestly months.

1200
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,640
I'm still refueled from commit your code and I'm still thinking about it today.

1201
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,140
So you too.

1202
00:59:20,140 --> 00:59:21,960
All right.

1203
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,280
This has been so lovely.

1204
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:24,560
Thank you, Noah.

1205
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,960
And I hope everyone has a fabulous rest of their day and weekend because it's Friday.

1206
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:30,960
Have coffee.

1207
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:31,960
Yes.

1208
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:32,960
Yes.

1209
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:33,960
Thanks, y'all.

1210
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:40,960
Bye.