Jayne: [00:00:00] Hi, Heather.
Heather: Hi, Jayne.
Jayne: Hello friends and welcome to people in the squeeze. So Heather,
Heather: Jayne. Jayne.
Jayne: Anything new?
Heather: Lots happening. It's been exciting times. As we're preparing for our launch of this book. And part of this has included showcasing your mad skills around press kits and working together. And I just have to tell you it's been such fun to be with you on this ride and in the press kit, which is so fancy and fabulous, we have some suggested interview questions, and one of them, is what's often the hardest conversation adult children need to have with aging parents?
Heather: Drum roll, Jayne.
Jayne: I can't imagine.
Heather: [00:01:00] Any guesses? Yeah. And so many, but, and it's not about wills. Or funeral plans. It is about driving. No one wants to hear they've lost the right to their keys to operate. I love this, a multi ton vehicle. Parents get defensive. Children get frustrated. And it turns into a battle royale. Amen, amen, amen. 
Jayne: We just continually get that reinforced.  
Heather: Yeah, it's everywhere. And this is one of those conversations that seems to be up front. It's one of the big challenging conversations that really causes angst and conflict and tension. 
Jayne: It's such a difficult transition for everybody. One, because one, you don't want to have to have the conversation. Two, their independence is so important and that's what's fading. But three, everybody sees it and it's such an emotional thing and that can just bring up all of these kind of icky, and [00:02:00] sticky feelings for everybody. for everybody, for everybody. 
Jayne: Well, before we step into everything, I feel like this is a perfect opportunity for us to have some compassion. If there ever was a moment where everybody needs a little bit of compassion, it would be in the moment of trying to have this kind of difficult conversation. 
Jayne: So, as is our practice, we're going to take a second here to just breathe and step in. You want to make sure you're either seated or lying down if that's an option and then just be comfortable. So breathing naturally in and then just deep breath out. I want you to imagine your loved one or a friend that you know to be suffering right now. It might be a sick family member, or a friend with problems, or someplace where you are just feeling [00:03:00] unsettled. And I want you to take a moment to just imagine a light at your heart . Now breathing naturally as that light connects you send compassion saying: May you be free of your suffering and its causes.
Jayne: Feel yourself bathed in light of compassion and just continue to repeat these phrases silently. May you be free of your suffering and its causes. May you be free of your suffering and its causes. Remember to breathe naturally as the white light connects you. See yourself radiating the light of compassion out into the [00:04:00] universe. As you continue to just take in all that warmth and all that glow, turn your attention to your body and notice how you are feeling different things, the sensations in your body. Observe and recognize and be aware of that peacefulness. Come back into your body. And slowly open your eyes. Super easy to take that and it can have a huge impact just on a difficult moment or if you're wanting to do something good for yourself, your loved one, or somebody in your life. Just taking that time to focus your compassion towards yourself, your loved one, or [00:05:00] a friend or family member who might be suffering.
Jayne: It's such a good practice. And it's so healing
Heather: Well, Jayne, I even think how powerful this would be in advance of having a big conversation with aging parents. So it's, it's lovely. Thank you for leading us through that. 
Jayne: Well, today I am going to share with you something that really is important to what we're doing here at people in the squeeze and with our new book, "Thriving in Chaos". I had coffee with a friend who responded to a blog post we had put out recently. And, her response was "You know, we are really starting to feel this with our in laws and it's really hard to know how to step into these moments where they're having trouble accepting their lack of independence on things that they have done [00:06:00] all their lives."
Jayne: And it's such a difficult transition. She continued to share with me that they don't get to see them as much, so then they know all of these things are going on and they recognize that there's some changes happening, but when they're together, too, they're not wanting to really have conversations about these things because they don't want to rock the boat. This is often a source of real tension. And it's often the unspoken tension. 
Jayne: So in our book, we actually identify this as a phase of life, calling it the adolescence of aging. And it mirrors much of the same turbulence of our youth, that same oppositional behavior, that denial, the doing it anyway, even though it's dangerous, getting into a car, driving it, you know, bumping into things, all the things, except this time they're adults and they have agency and they have autonomy. What happens in this phase can [00:07:00] also mirror depression in those behaviors. You get anger, you get fatigue or lethargy, and those behaviors have a real impact on everyone around them.
Jayne: Not only are we not having the difficult conversations or we're feeling tension about these difficult conversations, but we're also having to deal with the behavioral issues that go with this transitional phase.
Jayne: So you might have a spouse who is then suddenly living with a person who's not interested in doing anything. I'm just tired, I don't want to do anything, or they're feeling like they can't do anything, so then therefore they don't want to do anything. And they've changed entirely, they've become a different person. Or you have kids who are really trying to make the most of their time with their parent, trying to keep it positive, bring joy in but then also wanting to mirror for them how their behavior of their loved one is impacting them, and, and not knowing how to do that.
Heather: We're such creatures of habits, and [00:08:00] so we slip into our old patterns. And the patterns that worked when our aging parents were self sufficient they don't work anymore! And so it is so frustrating because you're like, what the heck? Why are we going sideways? Why are our conversations blowing up? 
Heather: Or can't they see, don't they understand? Like, this is dangerous. They're putting themselves at risk. They're putting others at risk. What is going on? And then we go sideways because we're not at the root. We're not having the conversation around the root. And that's when we hurt relationship with aging parent and even with siblings because we get frustrated too. And so it's not working because again, we're slipping back into the patterns of how it's been in the past and it needs to look differently. So, I've been really wrestling with this because this is something that we are hearing a lot of and how do we do better at having these conversations?
Heather: Is there a game or a [00:09:00] tool that we can create? And I want to share with you, I'm going to laugh because these are so, these are so true. So let's just see if they resonate with you. Here's some phrases, some scenarios, some situations that we're hearing about.
Heather: "I'm fine." Aging parent refuses to take, get a medical advice or checkup. "I don't need help! Right?" Like, with any household tasks. The key one, right? "You're not taking my keys." Obviously, we're talking about that one. " This is my house." Like, "do not tell me what needs to happen in my house.", "I am not moving."
Heather: Right? "I am not looking at other properties!" It is a solid exclamation point. Period. Not budging. Bunkered in. "Stop treating me like a child." "I can eat what I want." I don't. How about this one? "I don't want a stranger in my house." "You're overreacting." "I don't need a will." "I am not lonely." " Stop worrying so much."
Heather: " I do not want to talk about it." Here's one. I've heard this. " I'm not taking that stupid medicine." Stupid and medicine are usually together. Here's another [00:10:00] one. I just heard about this from a friend the other day. "I won't wear that stupid alert button. I'm not, I'm just not."
Heather: Oh, here's another one. "My friends will take care of me", which is always interesting. Like in situations that I've navigated, talked with those friends. And the friends are like, "Oh, we can't take care of that person", right? :Like they do need help. You're not getting all the information."
Heather: " Why are you trying to change everything?" " I know how to do it." Or this is a good one. "I can still handle" and fill in the blank finances, filling in my medications", like whatever it is. Here's one, a classic, "you're not the boss of me." I was like, wow, I just flashed back to each of my four young adult children hearing that one.
Heather: And then, "I'm not depressed. I'm just tired." These phrases, these scenarios, these intersections, it's not only about our aging parent that might be in the focus, but it's how it impacts the system around them.   
Jayne: They create [00:11:00] roadblocks. They are stopping points that you can't move forward. Until you address them, they continue to create these roadblocks of not being able to get through , and be able to solve maybe a problem that could actually let them be more independent for a longer period of time.
Jayne: The real challenge is that how do you have these conversations with them, without them shutting down? How do you get past these roadblocks getting beyond that defensiveness? Or without sparking a rebellion, where they actually, again, go out and do the thing. They go out and do the thing anyways, just to spite you.
Heather: Well, and then there's big consequences, right? Big, big consequences to getting in a significant car accident, to falling down the stairs, falling in the shower and having a significant head trauma and then quality of life. It It changes instantly. If we [00:12:00] could find a way to navigate these conversations. It could be a really small shift in their place, in their space that would allow them to have that interdependence, right, that ability to stay in their home or to stay where they are or whatever that looks like with just a small shift. I wish I had known. I really wish that I had known that, and that is at the heart of our work, is how can we make it better?   
Heather: I want to dive into chapter three. It's the chapter on surviving the adolescence of aging. And so I'm going to dive in here. "One of the most striking parallels between adolescence and aging is the frustration arising from body and mind changes. Adolescents and youth experience rapid physical growth and hormonal changes that affect their mood, behavior, and self perception.
Heather: Similarly, aging individuals face a decline in physical [00:13:00] and cognitive abilities leading to frustration, helplessness, and even anger. These emotional responses are natural reactions to losing control over one's body and mind. The struggle is often about asserting independence while relying on parents or guardians for guidance and support.
Heather: This push and pull can lead to conflicts as young people seek to establish their identities and make their own decisions, even as they recognize the need for some level of dependence. In the same way, aging parents may resist their children's increasing support as it can infringe on their autonomy.
Heather: This resistance can manifest in various ways, including defiance, irritability, and a refusal to accept help. The tensions between aging parents and their children is often rooted in the clash of desires. The aging parents wish to maintain independent versus the child's concern for their safety and well being.
Heather: The emotional and physiological aspects of aging [00:14:00] further complicate this dynamic. Aging individuals may experience a loss of independence, physical abilities, cognitive sharpness, and sometimes even social connections. This loss can lead to vulnerability, Insecurity and fear expressed as resistant to change or support.
Heather: Stepping into caregiving can be equally challenging for adult children, especially when setting boundaries and making decisions for the aging parent. This role reversal can create emotional strain as adult children balance their respect for their parents autonomy with the need to ensure their safety and well being.
Heather: Feelings of guilt frustration and sadness can further complicate this situation. As they witness their parents decline." 
Jayne: That is exactly what we've been talking about.
Jayne: In our conversations with others, we delve into the real mechanics of the adolescence of [00:15:00] aging. And this light bulb, this flash of light of recognition and resonance just immediately happens. So I'm hoping that in having this opportunity to share this with everyone today here in the podcast, we have that same resonance, that this is suddenly starting to make sense, that people are taking this in and going, Oh, this is a normal part of development. 
Heather: Mm. I love 
Jayne: This is a life stage. This is something that, Oh, this is, this isn't personal.
Jayne: This is, this isn't about me. This isn't about some crazy dynamic between adults and child. This isn't about anything other than this person that I love my parent, is going through this transition and this is a result of that transition. That separation gives us some calm and some peace, hopefully. I'd like to think that we can find objectivity and the ability to create more [00:16:00] joy in a difficult situation. 
Heather: It's showing there's a shifting happening here. We talk about this transition and the shifting of needs. And so it takes us out of that emotional explosion, emotional conflict and like, what the heck is going on to, Oh! There's a shifting happening here, and what are the needs of my aging parent or aging loved one, and how does that help me shift in how I show up to these conversations?
Heather: Again, because we are creatures of habit, we like to go back into our patterns of how we've behaved in the past, and that's again, that's above us with aging parent and next to us with our siblings. And like really, really important that what we're saying here, Jayne, is we need to behave differently. And so we offer some key tips in the book and I'd like to just share what those key [00:17:00] takeaways are. So, what are the little things that we can sneak in and say, "Yes, and" rather than "no, but" so can we shift and rather than saying the big, big things like what are those small little pieces that again, respect autonomy and independence.
Heather: A piece that we've hinted at here and it is a new muscle and it takes practice. So giving yourself grace and giving your aging parent grace is the shift in how we are communicating is really, really important. How can we be clear? How can we be compassionate? A big lesson for me, Jayne, was I needed to talk slower. I'm a New York girl. I like to talk fast. I like to move fast. My brain moves fast. And this took, I'm not kidding, years to get better at being able to slow [00:18:00] down. I read somewhere that you need between 60 and 90 seconds between asking a question and waiting for a response. I maybe give somebody 10 seconds.
Heather: I'm like already, I'm already, I, I'm like already like come on, let's go, let's move forward. And, that is a big shift. in how do we have these conversations. What's the environment look like? Turn off the TV, turn off the radio. No kids running around. Get the dog or the cats out of there.
Heather: Have it early in the morning. There are some just solid tips in terms of how we are communicating and trying to have these conversations. And again, it's hard. You're trying to squeeze that conversation in between doing different activities.
Heather: Or like, at the end of the day, you've put it off all day because you don't want to have the conversation and it's late at night. That is not the time. That is not the time. That is not the time. You're tired. Everybody's tired. That is not the time. And so being able to have a different way of [00:19:00] approaching how we are communicating and being intentional.
Heather: The other key takeaway here-- and again, this is one I still wrestle with-- this is one that I had to power up with a compassionate counselor, is setting boundaries. I'm terrible, absolutely terrible at this. This was not role modeled for me. This is something that I still actively work on because you know what, Jayne, there's going to be situations where we do all the right things, where we are compassionate, where we are saying, "Hey, like this would really help you if you did this one small thing." And you know what your aging parent might say, "no, I am, I am not, I am going to, continue to do things the way I have." So what's your reaction to that? Can you hear that and allow that. Can you even in the midst of that be able to love them through that defiance and opposition and say, okay, I'm putting a period or a comma in it [00:20:00] today.
Heather: I'm going to come back to it tomorrow. For me, Jayne, that was years of watching my aging parent do something incredibly dangerous and there were incredibly significant consequences because of those choices. And it was devastating. So and so gets behind the car or behind the wheel and gets hit by a semi or so and so decides to walk out without a cane or a walker and slips and falls and traumatic brain injury.
Heather: Like those consequences are real. And they may happen and so how do we as adult children get to a place of knowing I am doing my best. I have tried and I mean, it's literally, it's like a four alarm fire, right? I mean, hairs on fire, houses on fire. Oh my gosh, like if you continue to do this. It's dangerous.
Heather: How do you live in that? Like, how do you accept their choices? [00:21:00] And how are you prepared? So in the situation I shared with my aging parent, where we, for years, watched the living dangerously, or the Thelma Louise choice, as I call it. We had our plan. We had our plan ready for the day because we knew there would be a day that there would be either such a significant consequence or that they'd hit the proverbial brick wall.
Heather: And what was going to be our response? And we had some practice. I'm doing, you know, in quotation, practice. We had some false starts. And again, we were like, Oh, this is the moment we can finally have some sanity or have some safety. And again, it was a heck no, not yet. But the day did come, Jayne, and we were ready.
Heather: My brothers and I, we were aligned and we were ready to say, okay, now we can step in. And now we had our plan and we knew what to do, but Jayne, you know, watching from the sidelines and being able to literally, I'll use this word, surrender, let it happen was one of the [00:22:00] most challenging times. It really grew me as a human being.
Jayne: I can definitely hear your experience in the squeeze in all of this. I feel like a lot of times people get into crisis because they actually don't take action. They require the parent to be involved. What I appreciate about what you just said was that you prepared anyways. You accepted that she was going to do things that were going to be dangerous and that there were going to be consequences, and yet you prepared anyways. And you had a plan knowing at some point you could step in. Was there peace in that for you?
Heather: I got there. I mean, it, it was a lot of. It required a lot of growth. It required a lot of growth to be able to get there. I see it now with my aging parent being able to know that they have the supports that they need. And that they, I mean, cause on the [00:23:00] flip side too, like, I don't think there was peace on the other side of the fence.
Heather: Right? I think, in fact, it was quite chaotic and quite awful and lots of factors contributing to that. But, so I don't think there was, you know, peace on either side. But again, like, how can I elevate, right? How can I grow? How can I show up differently? And, how can I accept? And then how can we be prepared?
Heather: Like, really, really important. As we think about this doing it anyways, even though it's dangerous. Yep, yep.
Jayne: I have loved this conversation and have really learned a lot just from your experience. I learned every time we talk. And everyone, we would love for you to join us in this conversation as well. We'd love for you to share your story with us at peopleinthesqueeze. com or drop us a line in our DMs at peopleinthesqueeze on both Instagram and [00:24:00] TikTok.
Jayne: We continue to be very excited to share our first book in a series, Thriving in Chaos, Navigating the Challenges of Aging Parents, which is available now on Amazon. And if you don't see it in your bookstore, you can certainly request it there. You heard a little bit of that today. There's all sorts of magic goodness. Lots of magic goodness to bring it in. 
Jayne: So, until we meet again, we want you to know when the days are really big and they are really hard, that we see you and that you are not alone. You are doing the impossible and it is going to be okay.
Heather: It's going to be okay.
Jayne: Always good to see you, Heather.
Heather: Thanks, Jayne.  [00:25:00]