Jayne: Hey, Heather.
Heather: Hello,Jayne.
Jayne: Hello, friends, and welcome to People in the Squeeze. So, Heather, anything new?
Heather: I love that you asked this question because something always happens. Something always happens and I want to tell you about this moment that I had, this interaction with my mom. We were getting ready to go to a concert and have a fun time. We were scheduled to have fun, Jayne. But boy she was having a day.
She was having a moment, she was having moment after moment and she really did not want to get ready to go to the concert. She was just mad. You could just sense it. And so when her caregiver made a suggestion that she needed to do something, she just said it was "no:, like, she was just solid, solid no.
Just so frustrated. Nothing was working right. So I stood up. And I walked over and I took a deep, deep breath, and I got really close, and I knew that I had her attention, and I said, "Hey, I don't know what it's like to get old, but I imagine it sucks.
Like, I just, it's gotta be really hard. And today I see it's really hard and it's really frustrating. And I'm sorry." And it was just interesting because I saw a small shift in her face. And I said, I know this is hard. I know you don't want to do what you've just been asked to do. But we have something fun on the other side of it.
And mom, you get to choose in this moment. You get to choose if we stay in frustrated, grumpy, stuck hard moment, or can we push through it? And do something fun together. And so, you know, what do you, what do you think? Like, what would you like to do?" And I saw a little spark, which is awesome. I mean, it was just awesome to see in that moment, she had power to choose what she wanted to do.
This was really for her and she decided to do the things she didn't want to do. And the other really cool part, Jayne, was to watch her caregiver see the interaction between the two of us to see like, oh, wow, there was tension. There was frustration. There was a challenge. And in that moment, her caregiver, so precious and professional and sweet and wonderful, said, "Okay, let's do it." And she did. And we got to go to the concert. Yeah.
Jayne: That's so awesome. And so cool that, you know, even in her cognitive decline, she was able to process what you were asking of her and internalize that. I think that really made a difference for her.
Heather: It did. It made a difference for her. It made a difference for me. And I think for that caregiver too. And we had such such a wonderful time. Music, it's magical, right? It's so magical for our bodies. And so to be able to sit in a beautiful place, surrounded with beautiful music, and just for 90 minutes to not escape, but to be together, without all those tensions and frustrations.
 It was magical. And I'm so grateful for her facility that sets up opportunities like this.
Jayne: I just love that. That is such a great story and to actually talk about the wins and the joys that can come out of these experiences is great, too. I love that. And it's really gotten us to a good start where we need to be. Cause as is our practice, we like to take a beat before we dive into the meaty bits of the squeeze. So we're just gonna take a moment and settle our minds and our body. We're going to do something a little bit different today. Something that I call snow globe. You can also call it glitter, glitter in a glass, glitter in a jar. 
We're going to close our eyes and we're just going to imagine for a minute that we're shaking up a snow globe. 
 Put whatever magical scene you want in that snow globe. So are you ready?
Heather: I'm ready.
Jayne: So I want you to imagine in your mind that you have a snow globe that you're shaking up and you're seeing all of that snow and how it swirls around in the snow globes. And I want you to take a minute and put that snow globe on the table in your mind's eye. And you just watch the snow as it falls. Slowly making its way down to the bottom. Feel all the tensions release from your body as it makes its way down. Take a deep breath and release and open your eyes.
Heather: Jayne, that's so good. 
Jayne: I know and it's easy! 
Heather: Mm. 
Jayne: I think meditation can be so hard for people because they think they need to have some sort of magical mantra, or they need to have some sort of skill or practice and work up to something. But really it is something as simple as just imagining the change in a snow globe and connecting with that and feeling that same release in your body.
So again, something that you can take with you.
Heather: Love that.
Jayne: Well, today Heather, I have a story for you.
Heather: Yes! Excellent! Let's go!
Jayne: I had a conversation recently with a friend. This conversation started totally unrelated to the specific topic of aging parents. But again, the question of, "well how are things going with your folks" opened the floodgates. This friend of mine, is not only raising her children on her own, but she has also taken over the care and support of her adult brother who has IDD and then her parents who are in their upper 80s and one of her parents had developed dementia during the COVID times. Every time I talk to her, it's a bit like talking to somebody who's a shell shocked. And one of the things that was most startling about our conversation was really how she described her life. 
And she says, "I just can't plan for anything because I never know what's going to happen." And she had this great analogy, she's like, "it's like the birth plan. They tell you , to put this plan together for, having this kid and then you get in the room and then nothing, it just explodes.
The plan
Heather: falls apart. Yeah.
Jayne: falls apart and, she feels like that's her every day. Which struck me because it also reminded me of an excerpt from our new book coming out February 18th,
Heather: Excellent.
Jayne: Thriving in Chaos; Navigating the Challenges of Aging Parents. In chapter five, we talk about the emotional complexity of the squeeze and I'm just going to take a minute here and read a couple of paragraphs from that because this to me was exactly what I was hearing from my friend. 
"The emotional pressures of being pushed in several directions, work, family, personal health and aging parents is enormous. As we care for our aging parents, we frequently experience conflicting emotions, such as guilt for not being able to do everything, resentment for the demands placed on us, and a strong sense of responsibility to care for those we love. Even if your personal life is hectic, there is pressure at work to perform, meet deadlines, and keep a professional demeanor.
The emotional burden of caring for children, whether babies, requiring constant attention or teenagers negotiating complex life stages is tremendous at home. Layered on top of this is the obligation of managing the care of aging parents, which presents emotional issues ranging from the pain of seeing a parent's health deteriorate to the frustration of dealing with medical and financial systems. The ongoing emotional tug of war might leave you feeling completely underwhelmed.
We feel overburdened with too many obligations and insufficient emotional, mental, and physical resources to satisfy them all. This strain is not only an emotional feeling, it can also emerge as physical symptoms like insomnia, migraines, or chronic worry. Middle adulthood's mental and emotional weight is complicated and multifaceted. It's not only about task management, it's also about navigating the complex emotional terrain of caregiving, personal health, and preserving some balance in a life that frequently feels everything but balanced. It is difficult to discover ways to manage this load, share it where possible, and realize the enormous strength and resilience required to carry it daily." 
That is a gut punch.
Heather: Yep, sounds about 
right!, 
Jayne: And it is about exactly what I heard in the life and the story of my friend.
Heather: And I believe for her, that's her normal, Jayne. That is her new normal. And so I think about her trying to navigate her life. I think about her with her family. I think about her in her workspaces. That is her normal. And I think that's what gets us so fired up in this work is you and I are bumping in to women like your friend all over the place.
I mean, her case sounds very heavy. Her situation sounds very heavy to me. And my heart breaks because I can't imagine the additional complexities that she faced. I had an aging parent but to have those additional pressures, it literally takes my breath away and it's hard to find words. And that's one of the pieces we've talked about right in our work together is what, what does literature say, like what's out there in the world around what we're experiencing. And that's what I love about our book "Thriving in Chaos" is how do we give some language to some of these pieces that we're experiencing.
And so as I was listening, one of the pieces that popped up for me, we talk about this in chapters five through seven in the book that you started to reference chapter five, and I'm back in chapter seven, one of the terms that like, hit me so strongly was the role, like role fatigue, that is a, that's a term, Jayne, that's out there in the world that we are just so exhausted in trying to balance work, family, aging, parent demands that we are completely depleted with no time. Not even like the mental capacity to think about, "Oh, I need to take care of myself. I need to recharge" like your dear friend there who is just on this treadmill of trying to stay with her head above water. As you were speaking, that resonated another thing I'm thinking about, there's a term called multi generational stress.
Jayne: Oh, a hundred percent.
Heather: And she's in between. There's sandwich generation. We talk about the squeeze of caring for older and younger. And I think for me, I had children later in life. So I have teenagers, young adults, and I have aging parents.
And as we were, preparing for this segment, I was thinking, Oh my gosh, I can remember Jayne. I can go back to that moment in time when I was new, newer to this squeeze. And I was at my son's prom pictures, which is really exciting. He's my oldest. I've not done this before and I was like watching what I call mentor moms.
Okay. So what am I supposed to do? And how do we like stay cool, but not like get in their way. Like, how do I do this? And trying to navigate that. And I get a phone call and it is my aging parent in crisis. And I need to step out from this fun moment for my eldest and go and switch into my multi generational stress, switch pretty quickly and be responsive and give attention and focus and wisdom to a situation that I don't know anything about.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is it. Like now I have a term for this experience that I had multi generational stress. 
Jayne: I kind of think of it as a disassociative experience. Because you have what's happening to you in the real life and you have something joyous or something that's important to you and something that you're trying to be present and real and then something that pulls you away.
And that is all in your mind, right? Cause you're having to manage and negotiate that either over the phone. phone or through text with multiple phone calls. And it really is this disassociative experience that feels very isolating because nobody who is in your presence really understands what's happening.
Heather: Right.
Jayne: in that other reality.
I love that you call them mentor moms. That is such a fun term. I want mentor moms, I want mentor, well, but also I want mentor people in the squeeze. 
Heather: I've always tried to do that. I look and say, you know, who's like, five to 10 years ahead of me that I can be watching and learning from because things are going to be around the corner that I don't even know. And so having different mentor moms for my children were important and critical were these mentors of people in the squeeze.
And having those conversations, those coffees once I figured out like, Oh, this is real. This is going to be around for a while. And how the, pardon my French, how the heck am I going to get through this? Because
Jayne: Love that, pardon your French as "heck". That's really, that's really strong language, Heather. You should be really careful with your words. 
You know, it's, it's also brings up a part of the conversation with my friend that I didn't mention was that nobody talked about it with her. She felt like she was on her own in this and that the only people that gave her resources were the to connect to were other providers. This is where that idea of mentorship and the idea of connecting and creating conversation and dialogue, I think is just, just so important.
One of the other things that again in the book we're talking about is the cognitive clutter, right?
That to do list, like when does it end? 
Heather: Um, 
Jayne: When does it end?
Heather: It is and Jayne, you're so good, because you're like, I think we can keep like three things in our head. There's three things that we can be doing at once. I always think of it as five fingers. And so I 
Jayne: Well, that's because you're over, you're really, you're very achievement oriented and you must always, you're very competitive and must always excel. 
Heather: I can, it's five because I can see my five fingers in front of my face to remind me like, okay, I've got two that are going to my family, you know, one or two for work, depending on how crazy the the client and the work world is, and then one for myself. And then pretty soon you're like, okay.
Oh my gosh, no, like I need three of those to just take care of the list. I mean, the ongoing list. So I learned to put it down on paper. That was helpful.
But then that again was overwhelming. Cause it was pages of things, and it's not like a grocery list or something that's easy that I just go, Oh, I'm going to check off three things today. What's on this list? is complex. It is challenging.
I am making calls on behalf of my aging parent. I have to have permission. I have to talk to the right person. It's multiple steps. Like it is not, it's not easy. And so I, I think this being honest about cognitive clutter and being probably I needed to be more patient with myself. And give myself more grace, because you're right, I'm a driver.
Like, I want to get things done. Achiever, 1000%. But boy, cognitive clutter, it resonates with me.
Jayne: Imagine being able to go up to a friend and going, I have a lot of cognitive clutter today. How, how, how, what, what shorthand would that bring to your conversations? It'd be like, Oh, Okay. You've got something complex in your life, right? Like you've got something going on. 
Heather: And here's some tips. Yeah, here's what helped me with mine. 
Jayne: Yes. What is it? It's endless.
You know, we're in the middle of the squeeze, another part of it. And I'm not on lead on this part of it, but it is been fascinating to observe working with different financial institutions how challenging they make it and how difficult they make it for people who are just trying to do the right thing.
I know sometimes those protections are in place for a reason, right? So I'm not dismissing that, but really for people who are just trying to do the right thing something that really should be transactional, maybe can even be done online, takes several days. 
Heather: It's days. It's hours, Jayne. Yes.
Jayne: Not being able to check those boxes in a reasonable time, I'm not suggesting quickly, but in a reasonable time, so that within a reasonable amount of effort just continues to make that cognitive clutter more intense, because the things around you, again, that disassociative experience, those things around you don't stop.
You still have, you still have your normal routine, but now layer, it's a layer on top of that. Another thing that we talk about as the part of finding language for this mental load is Invisible labor. 
Heather: Mm hmm. 
Jayne: I think as moms, we generally have a pretty good understanding of what that, not to generalize the experience, but this is talked about a lot in parenting as well.
Heather: Well, and we've even discovered Eva Radsky and Fairplay, her efforts around giving language, which was fascinating and so affirming. And it's like, yes, there is someone out there in the world who is again, giving language and creating space for conversations around this invisible load. For example, and I think you and I talked about this.
Your spouse says, Oh, you know, I'm willing to make dinner and thinking about like, Oh, is that the entire task? Well, no, because we have to do grocery shopping and we have to do all these steps before and after. And so I've really appreciated looking at her content to say it gives a deeper understanding for partners, for spouses, or for those who are working together in a family to, to have an understanding of what the load is.
Jayne: It's amazing how difficult it is to have those conversations and to break those things down just on your own. It's amazing to me that something like Fair Play has to exist to facilitate those conversations.
Heather: Right.
Jayne: We also talk about caregiver guilt.
Heather: And we've heard that from a lot of the women. And I know for me personally this feeling of never being able to do enough like it's never enough and honestly, it is never enough. So getting to that place of being able to say, "I'm okay", or "what I'm doing is enough", I think is easier for some of us than others. It is not, it has not been easy for me. In fact, it's been, it's been heavy. And so I have worked with a wonderful counselor to really help me. We talk about building muscles, right? Getting better at boundaries. And, you know, it was interesting, Jayne, because I even referenced this in one of our reels.
And and I said, you know, one of the tips that my counselor gave me was when I called my aging parent to say, you know, I've got five minutes or I have 10 minutes or 20, whatever that amount of time is at the beginning of the conversation. And then, we talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and then to say, "Okay, it was great and I need to move on to my next appointment or next thing. I look forward to when we talk again soon."
And I got pushback. And I was like, at first I was defensive and I'm, and then it was beautiful to see other women on social media chime in and be like, oh, this is a great tip. Like this would be really helpful. This is something I'm not good at. To see the community, that again we're trying to build this connectivity, say hey, like, That would be helpful for me, or that is really a tip that I can use going forward. And so I, I love that and I said to myself, do I need to chime in? And I'm like, no, I didn't even have to chime in.
Like the community talked about that, which was really cool.
Jayne: I love that. The dynamics of social are just so fascinating. So I'm glad that people came in and just stepped up and said, you know, that's a really good idea. Thanks. 
Well, and finally we talk about something called responsibility overload. And it's that overpowering feeling of just having too much on your plate at any one given moment in just the parenting part of our lives and careers part of our lives, and household part of our lives.
That should be enough. But then you throw on the tsunami wave called aging parent, and , especially if you are in some sort of crisis mode. That can take it to a whole new level.
Heather: Whole new level. And being able to have language, and to see that, and be like, Oh, that's a thing! Like, that's responsibility overload! I am in that intersection, that's where I am right now. And the power of that I remember a conversation, Jayne, you may have even been with us. And it was a former healthcare executive, like he's really sophisticated guy. And and to hear him talk about responsibility overload. So he's leading an organization, and multiple aging parents, and not knowing. Like, I just wonder if we had this language around responsibility overload in that conversation, how that might have shifted, or how that may have been a gift to him to give him language in that moment.
Jayne: All of this is about giving language so that you can identify your need and be able to communicate with others so that they can help you or at least be able to listen or understand your experience. So yeah, I absolutely think if he had been able to say, I am in the squeeze and I am having responsibility overload. The optics of that are very different. 
There's a lot more opportunity to build compassion and empathy, but also awareness of this experience of being in the squeeze and as you support your aging parents and also raise your children and support your family. So much of this is about normalizing the struggle.
As I was thinking about this conversation with this friend. I've known her before all of this and I know her now so I see the difference. I know my time with her is often going to be time just listening and because I feel like I'm one of the few people who really knows what's going on in her life. I also am not there to tell her it's going to be okay, but normalizing the struggle is a lot different. And I'm really trying to help her by listening, understand that she is in something universal.
Heather: And I love that ability to just listen. So that is always challenging for me. I'm a fixer, Jayne. I like to get things fixed. And so I have now learned again, with the help of my counselor to say, when I'm in those situations, let me just ask, today, do you need me to listen? Or do you need me to offer solutions?
And to say and then to hear what would be helpful? Because Jayne, there is such power in listening. And so what a gift you are giving to your friend over this long period of time to walk this with her and say, I'm here. I'm a compassionate friend. And I'm here for you.
You can bring the mess, all the messy middle, you know, you can bring your mess and bring your mess. In fact, you're encouraging, bring the chaotic space that you're in, and you're not walking this alone. That's really important to both you and I in creating these conversations and doing this work is that no one feels alone in this messy place that they may be finding themselves.
Jayne: What do we think would be helpful in just taking first steps to normalize this struggle.
Heather: I can tell you from a neuroscience perspective and from my personal perspective, the power of breath. It's why we begin these conversations with a moment to settle. I don't want to get nerdy here, because I love being nerdy, but in our, in the nerdy space, we have our thinking brain, and then we have our mammalian brain, and in these moments of great stress, we do something called "flipping our lid", where our thinking brain actually disengages. There's part of the brain called the amygdala, the reactive brain, the, I'm going to protect you part of the brain, just takes over, and that is that very inability to think clearly. Our reasoning part of the brain just disengages. And so when we talk about importance of breath, like that is a very real piece. 
The other part is how do we not become so isolated. And this part of our work too, that has been so important to us is where are your people? We have these daily habits that keep us healthy and strong.
And so we are moving our bodies, we're getting good sleep, we're eating well. Our life is set up in a way that we can function at a high level. And , when it comes, when aging parent crisis comes and kind of knocks you on your bum, you step away from these daily habits.
And this is something that we do include in the book. I list my healthy habits and I say this is, in my moment in the squeeze, what I stepped away from, and I paid a price. I paid a price for not sleeping well, eating well, exercising.
And it's how important those daily healthy habits are. And just being aware, Jayne, of what we are stepping away from what we are giving up out of pure necessity. I mean, pure necessity. I don't want anyone to hear judgment or I'm shoulding on you. I just want people to hear and maybe have insight like, Oh my gosh, I had never even thought about I dropped my daily walk, or, oh my gosh, I'd never thought about I'm not getting to bed until midnight or 1 a. m. because I'm up trying to do paperwork or things or do my work because during the day I've been so consumed with the organizations that are open 9 to 5 and trying to make those phone calls. So the stuff I need to do to run the family or to do my job, I'm doing the after hours.
 Healthy daily habits are really, really important. 
Jayne: I love the fact that you mentioned just taking an inventory of what you've stepped away from and none of it is about shoulding for sure. It's all about just being aware. 
Heather: The other piece that we talk about in the book, and we've mentioned here in our discussion today is the importance of finding a compassionate professional. Is there a counselor that you need to help you with some new tools? Are there new muscles that we need to develop to get through this phase, this life stage?
I have what I call my thick and thin friends. So who are the people that I know I can just like with your friend, I can show up messy. Right. And, and they've told me I used to, in fact, one of our mutual friends said to me, "Heather, I'm your roadkill friend." And so no matter how messy, how ugly it is , you call me, you understand, you call me. I want to know. And I have been always so grateful for that friendship. 
There's support groups out there. I know for me in my world, I'm involved in a couple of prayer groups and a Bible study. And those are the places that I can show up however, or whatever it looks like on that day.
And walk this with others, the importance of socializing and not isolating. And again, Our instinct, our muscle is to retract and pull in. And so we have to learn that is a need to that is a have to learn to step through, lean in, whatever the language is, to connect with other human beings because our instinct is to withdraw.
Jayne: As the spouse of somebody who is the primary in the squeeze, managing illness and estate issues for his parents, I'd like to think that my role is to bring levity. Finding supports, no matter what that looks like, whether it is a spouse or a partner or a roadkill friend, I'm learning new words today.
Recognizing that those people are going to do what they can to keep you out of that isolation and try and bring some of that normalcy to your life. 
Heather: And I'm glad you mentioned, Jayne about the levity and light. So that's another muscle that with the help of my counselor, she said, Heather, you need to schedule fun things. And I was like, Oh, I need to schedule fun things. It was such an ah ha for me, and that was my assignment. And so when I would talk to her, she'd be like, Okay, what's something fun you're doing for yourself?
What's something fun you're doing with your husband and with your children? And let's get those on the calendar. Because again, in that frenetic, chaotic on the treadmill, Jayne, it's just not even possible to think about doing levity and light. And so for me, I learned to schedule fun.
Jayne: You do. You need to step outside. It can all consume you. Just having someone remind you that this is a moment and it too shall pass. Mindset really matters. Even when it seems like it's never going to end. You've been in the squeeze eight plus years.
We've been really intensely in the squeeze for about two and in that time my cheerleading has really been this is just a moment in all the grand scheme of timelines, right? 
Heather: right? It's a chapter. 
Jayne: It's a blip. And while it feels like it's everything right now we just need to find our flow or need to find our flow in it and ride those waves and not let ourselves get overwhelmed by it and consumed by it. 
Heather: Yeah, because in those moments we might not be able to see and to have that perspective. And I think that was one of our hopes for our time together today is just to say what is one thing one step that you might be able to take today that would be saying yes to yourself. For me, this was learning to say no.
I had a friend that said, Heather, once a day, you need to say no to something. And I giggled when she said it. But it was it's great. It gives me permission to say no. We cannot pour from an empty cup. And so we hope that either through listening to us today, or reading in our book that you might be able to find something today to fill your cup.
Jayne: I have loved this conversation, Heather, and we would love for everyone else to join this conversation with us as well. Share your stories because, you know, stories are really so powerful. And you can share those with us at people in the squeeze. com. You could also drop us a line in the DMs. We are at People in the Squeeze on both Insta and TikTok.
So anything else before we go? 
Heather: I saw a reel last night and it resonated so strongly. You are worth it. And the person said, I want you to say it out loud. And so, you know, you just kind of quietly say, "I am worth it. I am enough." And then she said, I want you to say it louder. And I was like, Oh, this is so silly, but I was like, okay, I'm in, "I am worth it. I am enough." And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is great for people in the squeeze. We are worth it. We are enough. And so I do hope that people can find one thing to say yes to themselves today.
Jayne: I love that!
Heather: Yay!
Jayne: Yay! All right. We are very excited to share that we have our first book in a series "Thriving in Chaos; Navigating the Challenges of Aging "Parents coming out on February 18th just a couple of weeks from today. We shared a few of those excerpts from the book and we'll be continuing to share some in our socials.
Be on the lookout for events and we will soon have details on how you can order. Stay tuned. So until we meet again, we just want you to know that when the days are really big and really hard, that we see you and you are not alone. You are doing the impossible and it is going to be okay.
Heather: It's going to be okay.
Jayne: It was good chatting with you, Heather. Have a great day!
Heather: Always good to see you, Jayne.