Has your research taken you far and wide? Have
you traveled to meet these people? Or do you
just, how do you conduct your interviews? So,
I mean, like I said, I like to mostly, well,
a lot of my subjects are dead. What? I'm out
of here. So that is unfortunate. Hello and welcome
to Camp Kaiju Monster Movie Podcast. We're your
hosts, Vincent Hannum and Matt Levine. And we're
talking about all our favorite monster movies,
the good, the bad, and the downright campy, and
asking if they stand the test of time. Traditional
Kaiju, creature features, space invaders, the
supernatural, and everything in between. All
strange beasts welcome here. where sensuous babies
offer themselves in ritual sacrifice to his brute
embrace. Godzilla has a brain about this size.
He is sheer brute force. While Kong is a thinking
animal, his brain is considerably larger, about
ten times the size of this gorilla's skull. Being
instinctive rivals, there is no doubt that they
will attempt to destroy one another. King Kong
vs. Godzilla, heading for their colossal collision.
Shattering every obstacle that stands between
them in the most fantastic rampage of annihilation
ever recorded on film. See King Kong stamp Tokyo
into the ground, holding a beautiful girl in
his grasp. See Godzilla destroy an entire army.
See King Kong trapped by the blazing barrier
of a billion volts. But nothing, nobody can stop
the great showdown when King Kong and Godzilla
meet to fight for survival of the fittest. And
Matt, we have a strange beast with us tonight.
Waiting in the Wings, Tom Shabilla. He's an author.
He's a writer. He's written a new book. We love
having guests on the show who are here to talk
about their own art and works in the monster
movie genre. I'm thinking about Sean Pryor, for
one, who came on and talked about his book Kaiju
Unleashed. So we're pretty excited. Indeed. Yeah,
it's always fun. We had Steffi on for a recent
episode, Steffi Theodora, to talk about The Abominable
Snowman. So yeah, we always love having guest
stars on here. Special thanks to our Patreon
members. You know who you are, but I'm going
to say your names because that's what you're
owed. And that goes out to Jason, Chris, Sean,
Peggy, Superfan Don, the aforementioned Steffi
Theodora. And our anonymous patron. Thank you
for your support. We hope you like what we got.
Indeed. Thank you. And we're, I was going to
mention, we were showing prayers coming back
on the show. We're going to be talking about,
well, this is, you're bringing this movie to
the podcast. You can talk about this if you want
to. That's exactly what I was going to say. Look
at us. We're, we're mind melding. Yeah. Right.
Blackula, 1972, blaxploitation film. Honestly,
I only know it by reputation, which maybe the
reputation I've heard is something to be made
fun of. It's Blackula. It's the Black Dracula.
But after hearing from a lot of noted historians,
and all this I'll get into on our episode, but
including Sean Pryor himself, who he chose to
bring this movie to the podcast. Because he says
there's a lot to get from this movie. And I'm
really eager to dig into that legacy and maybe
give that movie its just desserts. Yeah, I've
heard mostly good things about it. I know the
title is a little bit ridiculous, but I've wanted
to see it for a long time. Yeah, I mean, you
know, it's one of my favorite sort of intersections
between like horror movies and kind of a unique
cultural perspective on like horror movie lore.
So I'm surprised that it's taken me so long to
actually watch it. I know. And they're same here.
I've never seen it. There's a sequel, Scream,
Blackula, Scream. I mean, there are a dozen imitators
out there. Blackenstein. Is that right? Yeah,
that sounds right. I've never seen that movie
either. Yeah. But there are some. So the when
I talk about film historians, I'm talking about
this documentary I've mentioned on the series
before called Horror Noir. It's a Shudder original.
Would highly recommend. So it's just a really
insightful documentary about horror films and
the history of horror through the black African
-American experience. Earlier films on newer
films and the filmmakers behind them. And it's
just a really rich discussion when you're getting
people of different perspectives at the table.
Totally, yeah. I've seen some episodes of that
show because it's like an ongoing series, right?
It might have been. Released in episodic, episodic
format. Gotcha. I haven't seen the whole thing,
but it is a really good show. I did want to shout
out another movie called Ganja and Hess, which
is another kind of vampire movie from an African
-American perspective. That's a really great
movie that's actually playing at the Heights
Theater later this month, Friday, February 20th.
So I want to shout that out. It's one of a kind,
directed by Bill Gunn. I think it's totally different
from Blackula, as far as I understand. I've never
seen Blackula, but Ganja and Hess is great. Highly
recommend that one. That's fantastic. I've never
seen it either, but what I have or what I know
of it, my impression is more of a somber piece
of film making, which we love on this show as
much as the campy stuff. Totally, yeah. Maybe
closer to The Addiction than Blackula. We had
recently talked about that movie. Right, right.
Matt, you know what movie I just recently saw?
Have you heard of Bell, Book, and Candle? Yeah,
I've seen that movie. You've seen it? Yeah, it's
a lot of fun. I loved it. Yeah. Yeah, tell me
more. I just watched it last night. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. Well, what I wrote on Letterboxd
was a whimsical performance from James Stewart.
Elsa Lanchester, I loved. That was a wonderful
surprise. Jack Lemmon. But I think Kim Novak
just steals the show. Her presence is electric
in that movie. Fantastic. And you know what I
was truly impressed with? The cinematography.
Do you know who did that? You know, I don't.
I don't remember. James Wong Howe. Wow. We've
talked about him on the show before, right? We
have. I can't remember with what. Because he's
done like a hundred movies. He's very prolific.
Yeah. Yeah, he's an amazing cinematographer and
just a very interesting life story, I think.
You know, he shot a lot of movies in like the
classical Hollywood era. And I think maybe the
assumption is that, you know, he's Chinese ethnically,
his family is Chinese. And like, so he was Chinese
American. And I just feel like the assumption
is like there were not too many cinematographers
who were, you know, not white at that period
of classical Hollywood filmmaking. And he, you
know, it's not true. And he's one good example
of that. So fantastic. We'll talk more about
The Book and Candle later, I'm sure. Hasn't this
cat got anything better to do? Couldn't you give
him something to read? I'm more in love with
you than I've ever been with anyone. I'm Sidney
Redlich. You don't know me, but I think I want
to see you. Good evening, Nicholas. Good evening,
kids. You startled me. Ring the bell, close the
book, quench the candle. I'm one. You're one
what? One of the people that the book's about,
and Nicky's one too. The only perversions that
can be comfortably condemned are the perversions
of others. I will persist and survive without
God's or society's sanction. I will not be tortured.
I will not be punished. I will not be guilty.
The blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was
shed for thee, preserved thy body and soul for
everlasting life. Drink this in remembrance that
Christ's blood was shed for thee. and be thankful.
He's not a criminal. He's a victim. Dr. Stein
would like to see you in his laboratory. What
brings you to California? Well, I just arrived
from New York. My fiance was wounded in Vietnam,
and the doctors there wrote and told me he was
being transferred to the Veterans Hospital here.
He was seriously wounded when a landmine went
off under him. Eddie, this is Dr. Stein, the
doctor I studied with when I was in school. Now,
tell me once again, Eddie, what do you feel?
I was my middle finger. That's correct. Dr. Stein,
look at this. Yeah, welcome, Tom. Thank you.
Thank you. You know, the great thing about our
setup is that it's not live. We're not recording
live. Like I said, I'm a professor at a community
college and I have a late night class on Tuesday
that I occasionally teach. Well, we thank you
for making the time. Oh yeah, no problem. I just
like talking about this stuff. Us too. And Tom
has written a book called King Kong versus Godzilla.
The most colossal conflict the screen has ever
known. Yes. It's a work of love to be perfectly
honest with you. And I have two books prior to
this. One was called Primetime 1966 -67. It was
about the first season of color television, or
entirely color television, I should say. And
then the second one was called James Bond and
the 60s Spy Craze, and dealt with the James Bond
movies and knockoffs and spoofs and exploitation
of the era. But my first love of everything is
monsters. I love, I'm a monster kid. I've always
loved monster movies. And I've been involved
with that. I've written for Scream magazine,
Monster Bash magazine. And when I take it to
conventions, like Monster Bash convention, things
like that, people would say, well, where's the
book about monsters? Like, this is what we want.
And this is what we expect from you. And so I
was like, I don't know what to write about. I
felt like everything that I love has been written
about to death. I love Godzilla. I love King
Kong. I love Dracula, Frankenstein, Wolfman.
I love my classic monsters. But everything's
kind of been done to death. And I wanted to focus
on a singular subject. And so I was kind of like
looking through stuff. And I started writing
about, my original idea actually was a monster
rally film. So films with multiple monsters.
So I started with the Universal. I started writing
about those. I got on to a couple later things.
And I started writing about King Kong versus
Godzilla. And I'm like, oh man. This is an awesome
subject. This is such a cool movie. It's such
a fun movie. I love both these monsters. And
then I said, has there been a book written about
this movie? And there hasn't. I'm like, jackpot.
So I scrapped everything that I had at that point.
And I went gung -ho into this film. And yeah,
so here I am with it. So it was a lot of research.
And like I said, it was a real... labor of love
i guess you could say that's such a real that's
such a real journey as a writer i mean matt and
i are both writers and you know you're you're
like okay it's been done to death but like what's
the where's the angle i can get in and like add
a fresh perspective and there's always opportunity
for that sure and king kong versus godzilla the
production backstory is so interesting and rich
and yeah And Honda's involvement and how he,
you know, his hesitation with the material and
he himself, Honda, is thinking, what fresh perspective
can I even lend to this genre monster movie that,
I mean, at this point in Honda's output with
Toho, right? He was feeling a little, I don't
know, how would you describe it? His approach
to the rubber suit monster genre. From what I've
kind of gathered. He definitely had an interest
in the subject. I think he probably was a little
hesitant to bring a little bit more of a fun
factor, something that would maybe appeal to
children. In the book, I did an interview with
Linda Miller, who was in King Kong Escapes. And
she wasn't in King Kong vs. Godzilla. Unfortunately,
I couldn't find anybody from King Kong vs. Godzilla
who's alive and or willing to talk to me. And
she doesn't have a language barrier here. So
I thought, well, OK, she's the next best thing.
Linda Miller was super nice. She lives in Virginia.
She speaks English and she wants to talk about
her experiences because she didn't. She was kind
of out of it, not out of it, but she she had
no idea that anybody cared about this kind of
stuff. She had no idea that there was a podcast
like this that was talking. It was obsessing
over her movies. I should say she was in one
movie and she was in the green slime, but she
was a extra. But. I asked her about that. I asked
her about Ishiro Honda and I asked her about
like, you know, what, what kind of, what sense
did you get out of him? Did you get a sense that
he really loved this stuff or did you get a sense
like he was a company man and, or salary, you
know, salary man, I guess. And, you know, and,
and, and really liked making this stuff and,
and her, you know, kind of, kind of experience
was like, he really liked, you know, yeah, he
was probably given marching orders from Toho.
Yeah. He probably, you know, didn't have a whole
lot of say in what he was going to do, but he
did love the genre. So clearly he took it in
a way that he took what he loved. He did what
he loved. And that was making these movies. And
he and Tuberaya both loved King Kong. So I think
that this was their chance to make that monster
that influenced them to begin with. That's such
a great point. Like that, I often I guess hadn't
thought about before the fact that we take King
Kong for granted. But in 1962, this was the first
Kong film in 30 years. Yeah, that's a big deal.
And now these these guys who they themselves,
you could say, were monster kids, Tsuburaya and
Honda. They love King Kong. And here they are
getting a chance, getting a crack at it. Yeah,
they were definitely part of that, you know,
first wave, first generation of monster kids.
of people that discovered this stuff before famous
monsters of film land magazine before the shock
package you know uh you know where you could
say definitely guys like you know ed wood in
america even you know where where he was you
know trying to create these classic horror movies
you know poorly In America. But they all were
part of that generation. Yeah. That saw these
movies originally and were inspired. And there
was a bit of a wall in the late 30s of new people
doing it and even in the 40s. I think of someone
like Ray Harryhausen and Ray Bradbury, you know,
they grew up. They're very outspoken in their
interviews. Yeah, I saw King Kong when I was
a kid in 1933. And now I want to do that. Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah, and definitely King Kong. Yeah,
King Kong did start it all. King Kong, that certainly
inspired people. One thing that I, one, I guess,
theory that I have in the book is that King Kong,
in 1956, played on WOR, New York television,
for a week straight. So twice a day, three times
on the weekend. Which is incredible. And at a
time when you had four television stations, maybe
there were six in New York, which is incredible,
which is, you know, just monumental. It apparently
got monster ratings, no pun intended. And there
it is, you know, people still care about this
movie that at that point was 33 years old. So
that really kicked off, again, kind of this television
craze of... of monster movies. And yeah. And
then, and then, so, so King Kong definitely always
kicks this off. King Kong was always the catalyst
of things, you know, from there we, we had movies
like, you know, again, in, in the meantime, Godzilla
eventually, you know, coming out later in that
decade. So we, you know, Godzilla and yeah, everything
else. So everything else, Godzilla and Kong,
baby. Yeah. Tom, you talk about this a little
bit in the book, but I was just wondering if
you could talk a little bit about how you first
got into monster movies when you were a kid.
You write about watching old VHS tapes and everything.
Yeah, it all started with my parents. I have
a story in the book that apparently the day before
I was born, it's the... The family story, the
day before I was born, my mom watched a tape
of the incredibly strange creatures that stopped
living to become mixed up zombies. I never had
a chance in life. Straight up. Doomed from the
start. Yeah, I was doomed. And yeah, my dad kind
of just obsessively recorded a lot of these things
from Philadelphia television that were airing
really cool movies at the time. King Kong was
definitely on those tapes. I still have them.
And I could go back to them occasionally. But
yeah, they had a ton of really cool movies. And
also, during that time, it was when Godzilla
85 came out. And they had the Dr. Pepper commercials
with Godzilla. So my first... run -ins with godzilla
what were these dr pepper commercials you know
where i i didn't quite know you know i feel like
you had to have known who he is like maybe just
instinctually i knew who godzilla was i didn't
i wasn't i wasn't quite sure and uh so so watching
you know just getting bad monster movies bad
horror movies just just constantly and i never
saw a difference like i i would have friends
over my house and i'd say oh let's watch a movie
and i'd pop in like you know robot monster or
something and you're like what are we watching
why are we watching a black and white movie like
uh i don't understand this and i don't know i
like it so you know that that's always been my
my run -ins with with with these movies and yeah
i talked about that i talked about the uh finding
the the the Crestwood house books in my school
library. I could still, if I walked into what
was then the holy name of Jesus school, I could
still tell you where those monster books were.
God knows why they were there. If they're still
there. Yeah, man. That's great. Matt and I talk
about this all the time. Similar experiences.
I grew up in the 90s when there was still that
pre -internet subculture to monster movies. I'm
going to show you my own tapes right now. Off
of AMC, I would record The Invisible Man, Frankenstein
Meets the Wolfman. I made my own little cover
art. Oh, that's amazing. I love that. But then
years ago, I got these digitized. did tapes so
i have them on my hard drive now with all the
old commercials and the static snow because the
tapes are going on 30 years old now but they're
they're pride they're uh little joys of pride
for me there but then my mom she grew up i mean
she she had like one old vhs copy of godzilla
versus megalon and i wore that thing out growing
up And then at my local video store, there were
like the same four or five Godzilla movies that
I would continuously rent out. And I actually
forgot to return Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster
when I was a kid. So I still have that in like
the video store cassette tape. Good thing they
probably went out of business because, you know,
a really big fine. Most definitely. My video
store, yeah, I would. consistently rent, you
know, Godzilla movies and things like that because
they had a thing. It was like older movies, which,
you know, again, I didn't, I had no interest
in watching a newer movie, but it was like three
movies, three nights, $3. So perfect. You know,
there's that, that was your weekend right there.
I love it. I love how the book kind of, you know,
you were just talking about like the rise of
television and how that introduced so many people,
especially young people to these older monster
movies. And then, you know, the scope of the
book is really vast. It talks about the Heisei
era of Godzilla all the way up through like the
more recent, you know, legendary pictures like
monster rallies, as you were talking about. So
I think it's cool that you use King Kong versus
Godzilla to like chart the history of like monster
movie fanship, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Quite frankly, then it's a sin that it took them
this long to make another King Kong vs. Godzilla.
Yeah, yeah. It sells itself. It's a movie that
inherently you knew about. For whatever reason,
you knew about this movie. People talked about
this movie. I certainly remember, like you were
saying, kind of those early... Not necessarily
pre -internet days, but early, early internet
days. I definitely remember people talking about
the possibility of a sequel being made or something
along those lines in the Heisei era. That was
always brought up. So yeah, I definitely tried
to chart that course of monster movies, especially
kaiju films. using that as the backdrop, how
this inspired those films, why, you know, Kong
being left out of certain films is, again, just
didn't make a whole lot of sense to me and probably
would have made things a little bit better on
occasion. Yeah. What are your thoughts, just
like as a fan, when you watch some of the Showa
era movies, like Destroy All Monsters, where
it's this huge monster rally. Yeah. No Kong.
Or the fact that... Kong, Toho's Kong, only got
two pictures. And I mean, Toho had the rights
to the character. Yeah, five years, apparently.
I've said it before. If I was a film studio,
if I was Toho Studios, and you said, by the way,
you have King Kong for five years. King Kong
goes to space. King Kong goes underwater. King
Kong versus Mothra. I didn't make it at all.
I'd be using King Kong every day. I mean, what
are you doing? It makes zero sense to me of why
you would do that. But they didn't make... I
love both movies. I do love King Kong vs. Godzilla.
I do love King Kong Escapes. Even though I think
that they should have made it a direct sequel.
But... Yeah. King Kong Escapes, I'll be honest,
I only recently saw. And I had maybe... I don't
know why I had low expectations, but I just kind
of did. But I was proven so wrong. That movie,
I can't say enough about that movie. In terms
of Honda's direction and his love letter to Kong,
it is fantastically well made. He takes it really
seriously, actually. As silly as McCanny Kong
could be, there's a lot of tension and stakes
in that movie, too. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of it apparently
has to do with Rankin Bass, who owned the King
Kong show at the time, and were doing it. And
they wanted it in their direction. And there
is a lot of overlap of the King Kong show and
that movie, particularly the name of the family.
The Doctor Who. Who is not Doctor Who, but Doctor
Who. So, yeah, yeah, it's again, I really like
that. I really do like that film. And but again,
we could have also had Mechani -Kong versus Mechagodzilla.
Just just saying. Because that was Mechani -Kong
is a is a Toho original, right? Yeah. OK, so,
well, that's my thing with Toho in general. They
only reuse the same five main monsters. Megalon
deserves more appearances. Gigan, you name it.
I mean, there are so many characters in the catalog
just not being used. Yeah, even especially, you
know, I've in the newer one is Godzilla minus
zero is going to be the new one, right? Yeah.
I've seen a million fan theories in the last
two months or so of what the monster could be
that possibly Godzilla fights. Yeah. How do you
feel? What are your, you know, I would love to
see the smog monster. I would love to, I would
love to see that. One of my favorites, the movie's
a little goofy, but just the, the, the cartoon
element of that movie, I think is really goofy.
I don't, I don't, I'm always confused, even just
watching that a little bit, but I think he's
a truly terrifying monster. You know, he has
some really great scenes. I would like to see
that. That would be, I think, part of the overall,
you know, the message of that film certainly
hasn't gone away. If anything, it's gotten worse.
Yeah, honestly, more needed than ever. Yeah,
more need of that than ever and who to save us
than Godzilla. Yeah, than Godzilla. I would like
to see that. But again, I'll take what I can
get. Right. Anytime there's ever going to be
a Godzilla movie, I will see it in the theaters.
Even whatever just off the walls dumb fun that
this legendary output has been. Matt and I saw
the latest Godzilla X -Kong. with a group of
people. We don't think it was like a great movie
by any means, but we had a lot of fun watching
it. Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. You can always have
fun watching those films. You could always have
fun watching a Godzilla film. So that's, that's,
that's the one thing that stayed with them. I
do miss the summation days though. You know,
like the, like to see all the CGI it's impressive,
but it just doesn't, it's not the same, you know?
Yeah. I think it was, and I may have mentioned
it in the book. I don't even remember at this
point. I think it was Leonard Moulton. Leonard
Maltin said something along the lines of, you
know, when it's a man in a suit, you know it's
fake, but you know it's real. You know, like,
I could go to somewhere and I could touch that
suit. Like, I could touch, I could hold the Godzilla
suit and the King Kong suit. I could hold it
up. I could touch it. It's tactile. But CGI,
it looks real. But you know it's fake. You know
it's zeros and ones that could be manipulated
and deleted. So there's just something about
it that's cool. Warmth, it's the same reason
why probably I collect records. If I had the
means and the patience and the space, I would
be running film. You know why? I like going to
a movie theater that shows film. There's now
a movie theater about an hour from my house,
the Gap Theater in Wind Gap, Pennsylvania, that
shows exclusively 35 millimeter prints. And I'm
like, I'm there. Two weeks ago, we showed King
Kong versus Godzilla, and I was thrilled to death.
I was more than happy to sponsor that. I was
more than happy to do the intro and sell my books.
I would have gone whether or not they let me
around. That's fantastic. We saw, Matt and I
went to see King Kong, the 33 King Kong. I'm
at a local theater in Minneapolis that also just
shows old movies on film. Nice. 35 millimeter.
And there was an organ player down front just
to see this movie I've seen a hundred times,
but never on the big screen with a bunch of people
behind me. It was a really great experience.
Yeah. Yeah. Kong's a great, always a great movie
to watch on the big screen. The thrills. As it
was meant to be. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I've incorporated
Kong, even though it was, I don't know if it
was before I was born, but I definitely have
no, zero recollection of it. But I think it ended
early 80s. But Kong is my Thanksgiving movie.
I watched King Kong every Thanksgiving. Once
again, WOR that originally showed Kong in the
70s showed King Kong on Thanksgiving. Then they
expanded it to Kong, Son of Kong and Mighty Joe
Young. And then eventually expanded it to Black
Friday and expanded it to, you know, those three
films. And then Godzilla, King Kong versus Godzilla.
And they would make a different Godzilla movie
on, different Godzilla movies on. black friday
so so uh yeah king kong is my that that's what
i want to do on thanksgiving you know somebody
says you know what what are you doing on thanksgiving
is i'm watching king kong like i i don't i don't
know what else there is totally what else do
you need that's it yeah it's a it's america's
monster yeah it goes perfect with thanksgiving
Tom, you do talk in the book a little bit about
Frankenstein Conquers the World, which is a movie
that I like. It's such a bizarre movie. We've
talked about that on the podcast before. But,
you know, I get the sense like King Kong versus
Godzilla, you wrote a whole book about it. So
obviously that has like a special place of love
in your heart. Do you why do you think Frankenstein
Conquers the World maybe doesn't have that same
appeal, at least for you personally? It doesn't
have the same fun that King Kong versus Godzilla
has, even though it. The premise of the film
is dynamite. Just that first five minutes of
that film, I can watch all the time. Sometimes
I just put on the first 10 minutes of that movie.
Dr. Frankenstein is working for the Nazis. They
move the heart. The heart gets moved to Japan.
The atomic bomb. Wow. Who thought of that? That's
incredible. So, but then after that, I think
it just kind of, it goes downhill a little bit.
I love the film. I can watch, again, I do watch
it a lot, but sometimes I just need that first
15, 10, 15 minutes of that movie. Yeah. How can
you live up to that beginning? Yeah, you can't
live up to that beginning. And it's not as fun.
It's not, it's just simply not the same. It does
have the giant octopus, which I do love. It has
probably the original ending of the King Kong
vs. Godzilla sequel, where they get sucked into
the ground, things like that. Case in point,
Toho, if you're listening, we need more giant
Frankenstein kaiju movies. The gargantua is back.
These are prime characters just sitting on the
shelf too long. I completely agree. Again, if
I had the means, the means and the characters,
that would be there. There's somebody that, it
is a studio that is very protective of their
intellectual property. So use it. 1976. The American
merchant vessel Petrox Explorer has just set
sail from the port of Surabaya in search of oil.
What they find will shock the world. We may be
sailing into the history books. They will catch
a stowaway. And landing on the beach of the skull,
where he heard the roar of the greatest beast.
They will rescue a beautiful castaway. She's
alive! You know, maybe my luck has changed. And
they will discover an uncharted island that is
the home of the most incredible creature on the
face of the earth. A creature called Kong. Dino
De Laurentiis and Paramount Pictures present
the most exciting original motion picture event
of all time. King Kong. King Kong. A fantastic
adventure. King Kong, a colossal achiever. King
Kong, a motion picture filled with sights and
sounds. unlike anything you've ever experienced
before. King Kong. Don't flood the tank! She
fell in! With Jeff Bridges, Charles Grodin, and
introducing Jessica Lange as the beauty who charmed
the beast. And starring the eighth wonder of
the world, King Kong. In 1956, he first appeared
on motion picture screens across the country.
His impact on audiences was instantaneous and
unprecedented. His acting technique was revolutionary.
His presence, overwhelming. He possessed more
raw talent than any performer of his generation.
He soon became an international legend, a giant
who took the world by storm. Then, suddenly...
at the height of his fame he retired from motion
pictures now he is back and he's more magnificent
more glamorous more devastating than ever prepare
yourself the greatest star of all has returned
Coming soon to a theater near you. We were talking
about King Kong. Just to go back to that guy.
Matt and I have covered on this show. We've talked
about King Kong 1933. Talked about King Kong
versus Godzilla. The Peter Jackson King Kong.
And the Dino De Laurentiis Kongs. Which I know,
I'm sure, Tom, you have opinions about. Yeah.
How do you feel about those De Laurentiis? You
know, I think the, well, King Kong Lives was
unwatchable. I thought King Kong was, it was
cool. I like the merchandising of that movie
more than anything. I have the viewfinder, the
viewmaster of King Kong. Incredible. You know,
I have the Jim Bean bottle of Kong. You know,
it's great. I don't. I don't even drink, but
I have it. It's great. I think in the book they
had a recipe for King Kong something or other.
King Kong orange juice. I don't remember. I think
I have it in the book. But I think if the giant
mechanical Kong had worked. If the giant mechanical
Kong had worked in that movie, I think it would,
we'd have a completely different opinion of that
film. It was, you know, they, I think it's in
that movie for less moving for less than a minute.
Yeah. There there's, you know, him at, I think
it's Shea stadium or whatever, whatever it's
supposed to be. Yeah. So it's him and Shea. And
that's really it. You know, they really had like
just this mechanical tongue that like was supposed
to, you know, the way that they pushed it was
that it was going to be this groundbreaking special
effect and not even a special effect. It was
a practical effect, this groundbreaking practical
effect because they built the whole monster.
And, you know, most of the time it's Rick Baker
in a suit, which, you know, again, wasn't great,
you know. Maybe it would have been better as
a claymation. It may have been better as, which
was somewhat out of vogue at the time, but it
could have been done a little bit better that
way. Story -wise, I think it was solid, but I
think the soupmation at that point was just a
little goofy. But again, if the Mechani -Kong
had... or the Mechanical Kong, not Mechanical
Kong. They should have had Mechanical Kong. If
the Mechanical Kong had worked, I think it was,
it would have been a lot better. And I always
heard stories about that, about like when they
brought the monster to New York, when they brought
him to New York and they had him on the street,
like people were like ripping, just take, take
souvenirs, rolling Kong's eye down the street.
My biggest takeaway with the King Kong 76 is,
I like the movie fine, right? But I was really
underwhelmed by Skull Island and the lack of
monsters. Skull Island is part of the charm of
King Kong. This is something that I like to ask
people about King Kong and particularly in those.
you know, for fans of the original Kong with
Skull Island. Okay. You know, where they have,
you know, Fay Wray tied up and Kong comes to
the jungle and takes her. And then the T -Rex
comes and the thing. So do you think that that's
every day for Kong? Is that just like a day at
the office? Or is this a particularly bad day?
Like, oh man, today, like a pterodactyl attacked
me, you know, or. Or again, is this just another
day at the office? This is every single day for
Kong. It's like, okay, I'm going to kill another
dinosaur here. That's a good question. Yeah.
I kind of got the sense that Kong tried to like
lay low, like in his cave lair or whatever, you
know, maybe tried to give some distance to the
dinosaurs. That was my impression. Yeah. He couldn't
resist Feyre's charms, you know? That's true.
But now I wonder. Is it every day that he gets
a female sacrifice? Or is Rey just like... Actually,
the way this, like, what's it called? Altar is
set up. It seems like at least the human element
is a regular feature. Well, when he does come
to her, he's knocking over trees. You'd think
those trees would be knocked over already. Those
trees would have been knocked over. Yeah. That's
a good question. As you can tell, I've put a
lot of thought into this. I was kind of hoping
the sacrifices were maybe like a yearly thing
or like every couple months. I hope they're not
daily. That is very disturbing if that's the
case. They'd be running out of girls really quick.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a good point. Okay.
Yeah. Maybe it's like just long enough for the
trees to grow back. So it's like once every decade.
Today's the day. I don't know if she was relieved
that she was not the bride of Kong that day,
or if she was like, oh, man, I was looking forward
to this. Thank God the blonde girl came along.
We don't need these other jokers, though. Driscoll
and them. Yeah. Yeah, Skull Island is the charm.
Skull Island is, you know, it's a cool, it's
a place of, you know, what is, you know, what
is it? You know, what is Skull Island? Things
like that, that I think makes it the charm. And
the only thing that I like about Son of Kong,
which is far inferior movie. The only thing I
like about that movie is that Denim, you know,
escapes New York. He's all these predators. Or
say, hey, you know, you destroyed half of Manhattan,
you know, with your monster, you have to pay
for it. So he takes a expedition and he goes
back to Skull Island and the tribal chief is
like. No, you destroyed our island, you idiot.
So no matter where he goes, if he goes to the
most remote island on Earth or the largest city
in America, they're after him. So I think that
that's cool. I think that that was a really cool
element that they probably should have expanded
on a little bit more. I do love the fact that
it's a direct sequel. It dovetails perfectly
with the first film. It's such a campier film.
it's goofier one day we'll talk about it on the
show on our show camp kaiju because it's just
talk about camp it's it's load it's all camp
it's just they they rushed that out i mean it
came out the same year as con which is wild like
it took them so long to make king kong and then
it was just we're just rushing at it what are
the reviews was, oh, you know, it took them,
let's say 46 minutes, don't quote me on that,
for them to get to the monster, for them to get
to Sonic Kong. And so, again, I was looking at
that review and I was writing it and I said,
hmm, how long does it take for them to get to
King Kong in King Kong? It's 46 minutes. So the
same amount of time. But just that beginning
part was so much better than Son of Khan. Yeah.
And then Peter Jackson took a 90 -minute movie
and made it three hours. Somehow. And also, it
was some of those boring parts. Like New York
without King Khan. New York with Fay Wray. You're
not wrong. You're not wrong. yeah self -indulgence
can be a bad thing you know i feel like that
i i don't mind the peter jackson king kong but
it's like maybe if producers have been like you
need to give us a two -hour movie that might
not have been the worst thing you know yeah i
saw that one in the theaters yeah same yeah i
did too and i think the front row was people
who have who drank for the first time in their
lives and all of a sudden went to a monster movie
and it was so it was not an enjoyable experience
that's too bad we've all been there though oh
i was just gonna say real quick about the 76
king kong i like the cast jeff bridges and jessica
lane like you know like relatively early like
right on the cusp of superstardom it was jessica
lang's first starring role so the cast is good
Yeah. I certainly like the cast. I certainly
like the, I like the Bollywood behind it. I like,
I like anything like, you know, anything like
that behind the movie. And I think, you know,
we, we haven't really seen something like that
in recent memory. Maybe, you know what, maybe
the 90, was it 98 Godzilla certainly had, you
know, something similar where that was big, real
big merchandise. I still have mine. Cause I was,
I was seven. And for a seven -year -old, like
Godzilla toys all of a sudden and everything.
Of course, it wasn't actually the Godzilla I
knew and loved, but I was taking what I could
get, I guess. Yeah. Even the soundtrack. The
soundtrack was big. Yeah. Oh, the Taco Bell commercials.
Taco Bell commercials. It was everything. I think
we made a Subway. I think something like that.
Eyes does matter. Yeah. Yeah, that may have been
Subway. Yeah. So yeah, that was everywhere. So
yeah, definitely the merchandising opportunity
on that film was there and something we just
don't get anymore. I don't think people get that
excited for it. Welcome to Taco Bell. Can I take
your order? Let's see. 1 ,000 Burrito Supremes,
700 Mexican pizzas, and one of those new gorditas.
Hey, Godzilla. Want something to drink? Godzilla's
a Taco Bell on four collector cups. And now you
can put them in a cool Godzilla cup holder. Get
them while supplies last. In the ocean's unfathomable
depths, a gigantic, man -like creature appears.
fiery depths of the earth comes a prehistoric
mastodon of destruction never before has the
screen known such heart -stopping terror starring
nick adams i feel he's very important from a
scientific point of view i'd have to cut off
a leg or an arm doctors i won't let you conduct
this test frankenstein with the strength of a
thousand men and every man's need for affection
that makes him a willing captive the chain hurts
you the new scoop of the century Kong escapes
and meets his greatest foe, the Kong of Steel.
A gargantuan duel unmatched by any battle in
history. Thundering 60 -foot robot Kong of Steel,
creation of the evil Doctor Who, criminal genius
who stops at nothing. Kong, once again, dig.
King Kong shakes the earth. King Kong fights
for life against the copter swamp. A thousand
thrills as King Kong battles the servant of Mondo
Island. No, it's Kong! Hits himself against the
nation's armament. And plunges a beautiful girl
into a world of terror. King Kong in a duel to
the death. One of the things that I, you know,
kind of back to my book, I guess, is just the
the Bollyhoo and promotional things that they
did for King Kong versus Godzilla that were suggested
for King Kong versus Godzilla were certainly,
you know, interesting parts of the film of the.
promotion of that film, like having people dress
up like King Kong and, you know, having cardboard
cutouts of them playing things on local radio.
My favorite was have a go on television with
a zoologist or, you know, something like that
and talk about our Kongs and Godzilla's real.
I don't know. Where's the scientific evidence,
you know? Tom, do you have any more to say about
your book, like your process or what you hope?
Now that it's out in the world, what do you hope
for it? So, you know, my process of this is,
again, I go about it from, you know, kind of
this fan, a fan perspective. I go about it like,
you know, what would I want to read about? You
know, what are the things? I also like to find
the obscure. I like to find things that people.
Actually, I think of my James Bond book, one
of the criticisms, I think it was on a Google
review or Amazon review or something like that,
I think. I think it was me, actually. I don't
know, but go on. You're the one. It was something
like, oh, you know, Tom dives into obscure facts
that nobody cares about or something like that.
And I was like. Yeah, that's the point of the
book, dude. Like, you know, read a Wikipedia
article if you don't want obscure facts. Sure,
I could give you a brief overview. You know,
I could give you a synopsis of the film. I could
write that up. But so what? You could read that
anywhere. I did give a blow -by -blow in King
Kong vs. Godzilla. just because I felt it needed
to be there. But again, just overall, I'm not
going to give you a synopsis. So this book isn't
necessarily a synopsis of the film or anything
like that. It dives into the obscure. It dives
into the things that I care about, maybe the
forgotten, the weird, stuff like that. And that's
the stuff that I've looked for my entire life.
Those are the people that look for that sort
of thing, are the people that I'm drawn to. You
know, those are my friends. I want to be friends
with you. I want to have conversation with you.
If you like the obscure, the weird. Speaking
of which, and I should, by the way, I should
make another plug. I should have plugged this
earlier. Plug away. I'm the executive producer
of a documentary, Drew Friedman, Vermeer of the
Borscht Belt. It's about the cartoonist Drew
Friedman. And it is available now for free on
Shout Factory TV. And just, again, working on
that documentary, I found that, again, Drew Friedman
is known for drawing. the weird and forgotten
in Hollywood. So if you're not, if you're unfamiliar
with his work, you know, Shemp, Tor Johnson,
and then all the way down to like elevator men
of America. So just drawing like obscure, you
know, obscure Sammy Petrillo, who was in Bela
Lugosi meets a Brooklyn gorilla, things like
that. So in that. While making that documentary
with my friend Kevin Daugherty, who's the director
and everything else on that picture, I realized
that there is this market and people want to
know about the obscure. They want to know about
the weird parts of Hollywood or whatever else.
Tokyo, if you're Godzilla. And that really sent
me down this path of writing my first two books
and writing this one. So yeah, definitely you're
going to get a lot of obscure facts. Definitely
you're going to get a lot of things in the weeds.
When writing, in the back of my head, I said,
you know what? I don't even want to write about
the two -ending thing. Yeah, I'm surprised that
hasn't come up yet. But yeah, tell us about it.
Oh, yeah. It's one of these things that persists.
I remember, I wrote about it in the book. I remember...
renting King Kong versus Godzilla and thinking,
oh, I wonder what ending I have. So clearly I'd
heard about it. It's like kind of one of those
things like everybody heard about, like on the
playground, kids talked about it. It's not true.
Yeah. There's a little bit of a roar difference.
Japanese, you only get, you get both roars and
American version, you get only the Kong, but
clearly in the, international sales guide from
toho they clearly say come you know do that wins
you know and and really i mean i i was i do a
lot of newspaper digging you know looking for
for articles in newspapers and things like that
that's i think that's part of my my shtick with
this and you know just oh you know even articles
written fairly recently you know it was it was
It would always be, well, you know, there's two
endings. There's two endings. You know, where'd
you get this? Of course, comics tried to debunk
it in the, I think, 80s or 90s. But it all started
with Forrest J. Ackerman of Famous Monsters of
Filmland magazine. He's the one that he claims
that he was there on the set. while making the
film. I don't know if that's true. I did talk
to some people that knew him, and they said yes.
Okay. I say print the legend, not the story.
So I went with it. I don't know. This is what
I'm told. He went to meet with the gentleman
who... And I forget his name off the top of my
head, but he went on to make Horror World in
Japan in the 80s, which was a big horror movie
magazine, which would kind of be the, I think
more of like a Fangoria magazine than a Famous
Monsters magazine. He was known as Mr. Horror
in Japan. So apparently Forrest G. Ackerman,
who was Mr. Sci -Fi, you know, they met in Japan
and they went to the... I don't know. I don't
know. That's so fascinating. All of his reports
in Famous Monster Film Magazine, I have zero
idea. I have no idea. I'm printing the legend,
though. He was there, and he reported originally
on these two endings. It was later reprinted
in the Crestwood House books, where, again, maybe
I assume that that's where every red -blooded
American picked up on this between the years
of 1970. 1995 and, you know, and ran with it.
Yeah. You know, maybe Ackerman just overheard
Tanaka producer that he was, was like, you know,
it'd be great if we did this. And Honda said,
hell no. Ackerman just picked up, heard what
he wanted to hear. Yeah. He published it in,
it was Spaceman magazine. It was a kind of an
offshoot of. Famous Monsters. It was still done
by Warren Publishing. But it was later republished
in Famous Monsters. And so that's where it just
picked up steam. And I think the Crestwood House
books just kind of copied and pasted from...
I love the journalistic integrity of some of
these. If you can't trust Crestwood House, what
can you trust? Right. The story took on a life
of its own, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's like
so interesting in and of itself. Yeah. But yeah,
like I said, I, I, I, um, a gentleman by the
name of Joe Mo, uh, you know, he, he was intricate.
Uh, he was, he was a friend of Ackerman, you
know, was, was, you know, one of his, uh, he
took care of like the Ackerman mansion after
Ackerman died. And I, I had met him a long time
ago at Monster Bash convention. And we somewhat
stayed in touch and I've, you know, asked him
a couple of things here and there. And, you know,
when that came up, I thought, well, it's worth
a shot. Let's kind of confirm something. But,
you know, he said yes. So, I don't know. All
right. Has your research taken you far and wide?
Have you traveled to meet these people or do
you just, how do you conduct your interviews?
So, I mean, like I said, I like to mostly, well.
A lot of my subjects are dead. What? I'm out
of here. So that is unfortunate. And also I like
to look at things from a historical perspective.
I think oftentimes, and this happens to everybody,
so let's say you're telling a story about something
that happened to you 10 years ago. You don't
remember that happening. You remember telling
the story. And the story probably has changed
a little bit. You know, you kind of gave it some
editorial license. You, you know, there's, there
were two people there. Now all of a sudden they
became one. So I like to look at it from a historical
perspective, like what was published at the time,
you know? So I like to look at critics from the
time. I don't, I, you know, it's easy to look
at something from a modern perspective. And I
think I learned that with my, particularly with
my James Bond book where. You know, there's a
lot of things in James Bond movies you could
look at and go, you know, this is a little, you
know, these things that he's doing, it's a little
weird. I don't know. I wanted to look at it from
a perspective of, okay, if I'm watching this
movie in 1965, you know, are critics saying,
yeah, this is a little creepy? Or are they saying,
no, James, you know, this is great. So that's
kind of what I often wanted to look at. So I
want to look for old interviews. I want to look
for old reviews, interviews, source material,
things like that. So yeah, certainly Linda Miller
was the first interview I actually did for a
book. Again, it's the end of the text. And I
think it just, it adds, well, number one, because
she was in, really four things. You know, she
was a model. She was in King Kong escapes. She
was a model and Rankin said, Oh, you know, Hey,
let's get her. And she has some really great
stories. She was in the green slime and she was
in an episode of my three sons and she, Oh, she
was on some other, she was in some show in Japan
where she played a princess or something. So
she was in four things. So. you're not going
to misconstrue anything. You're going to have
a pretty good memory of your time making studio
films. Yeah. King Kong Escapes with the Shiro
Honda and Tsuburaya. It's like hitting a home
run right there. Yeah, that does it. You had
one at bat in your career and you hit a home
run. You don't forget that. The only other one
that I can think of that's done better is, oh,
what's his name from The Godfather? I can't think
of his name. Fredo. John Cazale? He was in five
movies before he died. He was in Godfather 1,
2, The Conversation, Dog Day Afternoon. Deer
Hunter. Old Grand Slam. Grand Slam out of the
park. That's it. It's him and Linda Miller. The
Green Slam maybe is more of like a single for
Linda Miller. Maybe a bunch, you know. Hit by
a pitch. Yeah, there we go. I think that's a
great note to end our evening on. Tom, this was
absolutely terrific. Thank you. Thank you for
joining us. We'll put links to all your books
and your documentary. Great. Anything else, just
email me. I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah.
Thank you, Tom. It was a pleasure. We'd love
to have you back. I'd love to stay in touch.
Let me know how things are going. Yeah. I'm working
on a book now. I don't have a publisher yet.
I may go back to Bear Manor. It's called Monsters
Belong on Television. It's actually kind of a
takeoff of the King Kong versus Godzilla book.
I said something in there like the King Kong
airing on WOR television proved that monsters
belong on television. And, you know, again, thinking
about, you know, becoming a, watching those tapes
and things like that, you know, and how intricate,
you know television especially you know pre -vhs
era was important to monster movies you know
drive in pre pre -vhs so so it's a it's a it's
a look at that so i'd love to come talk about
that you know again we could talk about kaiju
films on that i think yeah but yeah we talk about
all kinds of monster movies so i'm you're talking
about monsters on tv i'm thinking about It's
not Elvira. It's the woman from Plan 9 from Outer
Space. Oh, Vampyra. Vampyra. Thank you. So like
you say, like from the beginning of television.
Yeah. Yeah. She's part one. Yeah. I'm doing.
What's his name? Dana Gould, who did the forward
of my book. He's good friends with Vampyra. So
I don't know. I have to pick his brain on a couple
of things. And then we'll pick your brain on
how you picked his brain. And then. I feel like
I had a meeting with Linda Miller just tangentially
here. Yeah. You know what? She's the nicest lady.
Like I said, Linda Miller, Tom Shabilla, it's
me or my uncle. We're it. That's the only Tom
Shabilla on planet Earth. And if you find one
of us, you'll find me. Yeah. We'll point you
in the other direction. And Linda Miller, I'm
sure there's a trillion Linda Millers. And two
of the most popular names, first names and last.
And she had no idea that people were looking
for or liked that movie or cared about the movie
in any way, shape, or form. And she was an insurance
salesman and stuff like that. And, you know,
she lived in Virginia and kind of then all of
a sudden, you know, somebody asked her to come
to a convention. And she was like, oh, what?
Are you nuts? People care about this. And when
I contacted her, you know, I said, you know,
I think she was more than accommodating. She
said, oh, yeah, I'll go on Zoom. We'll talk about
it. And she sent me pictures. I think when we
got on, I said, okay, I'll try to make this brief.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible or
something like that. And she said something like,
oh, no, I like talking about this. That's so
lovely. I love that. And then she even, you know,
there's a drive -in by me that also shows films
and things like that. And this summer they had
King Kong and Godzilla Fest. I was a little upset
because it was right before my book came out.
So I was like, I don't have anything to sell.
So I think the first night they showed King Kong
Godzilla. I forget what the third was. Maybe
not Sonic Kong. I don't remember. And the next
night it was King Kong versus Godzilla, Godzilla
Escapes, and something else. And she did the
intro. to the film for it. Like, you know, and
she was, she was really accommodating and stuff.
It was just like, just reach out to her. So that's
wonderful. Keep up the good work, man. You guys
keep up the good fight too. Thank you very much.
This is a lot of fun. I appreciate it. Thank
you, Tom. Thanks friends for listening. Remember
you can find Tom Shabilla's links in the show
notes. Check out King Kong vs. Godzilla, the
most colossal conflict the screen has ever known,
and his other books on television, spy craze.
Tom's got a good catalog going. Well, next time
on Camp Kaiju, we will be having Sean Pryor,
dear friend of the pod, back on to talk about
a 1972 film called Blackula. It is a well -known
film, huge legacy. for black cinema and beyond.
But, you know, are there flaws worth talking
about? We're going to do just that next week.
In the meantime, go back, check out some of the
other black horror films that we mentioned in
the beginning of this episode. It is Black History
Month. Let us not forget. And we hope that you
find some really enriching, meaningful, campy
work in the rich legacy that is black cinema.
And we welcome your thoughts and participation
in next week's episode. It has been recorded,
so we do know what's a coming. All right, guys,
please rate and review this show and follow us
on Patreon .com slash Camp Kaiju for additional
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Other ways you can get in touch with us are at
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-2612. Camp Kaiju is recorded in Minneapolis,
St. Paul, Minnesota, with Menia's mailbox music
by Ben Cook -Felts. Thanks, friends. And until
next time, stay campy. Camp Gaidu is brought
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the Zach Pack has you covered. Check the link
in the show notes for more information. Look,
then run for your life. Incredible is the word
for the world's first monster musical. in magnificent
eastman color the daring dancing enticing and
horrifying the incredibly strange creatures who
stopped living and became mixed up zombies from
the innocence of music and laughter comes the
twilight of terror along the midway scantily
clad dancers luring the young lovers into the
sideshows See the dancing girls of the carnival
murdered by the incredible night creatures of
the midway. I only know that something evil lies
ahead for me. An unspeakable pit of dismal subhuman
monsters who drool and gibber, moaning for the
thrill of revenge. Incredible are the songs,
the gaiety, the zombie stomp of those who will
stop living. And then the mix -up. trickery and
the device to ruin. See the hunchback of the
midway fight a duel of death with the mixed up
zombies. Turning men into monsters twisted tormented
human vultures yearning to kill. Incredible creatures
clutching at the thin thread with their miserable
eyes. Human vultures only the weird zombies remain.
Who is the woman branded in birth wearing the
ward of horror? Do as Madame Estrella says. The
world's first monster musical. The incredibly
strange creatures who stopped living and became
mixed -up zombies.