Feast your eyes, glut your soul on my accursed
ugliness. I remember that one. Legendary line.
Just so imaginative. I can't remember if it's
like an intertitle or a note that he gives, but
the Phantom says, No longer like a toad in these
foul cellars will I secrete the venom of hatred,
for you shall bring me love. Oh, my God. Love
that line. Hello and welcome to Camp Kaiju Monster
Movie Podcast. We're your hosts, Vincent Manum
and Matt Levine. And we're talking about all
our favorite monster movies, the good, the bad,
and the downright campy, and asking if they stand
the test of time. Traditional kaiju, creature
features, space invaders, the supernatural, and
everything in between. All strange beasts welcome
here. Camp Kaiju is sponsored by Zack Linder
and the Zack Pack, powered by Coldwell Banker
Realty. your source for real estate, home rehab,
fixing and flipping for investor clients and
residential buyers. Reach out to the Zach Pack
today for real estate services, follow the Zach
Pack on social media, and contact the Zach Pack
for investment opportunities. Link in those show
notes. Behind the cavernous walls of this great
opera house, behind the gaiety and make -believe,
Lies terror. Unspeakable terror. Who was this
phantom plotting and scheming behind so grotesque
a mask? The thundering organ, his throne of doom.
The empty theater, his altar of death. Christine!
Why did he torment and torture the opera's brightest
stars? What evil fascination did beauty hold
for this beast? And Matt, we have a very special
third guest with us tonight. We do. Welcome Paul
McGuire Grimes. Thank you so much for joining
us tonight. Thanks for having me for the Phantom
of the Opera. Should I have revealed the title
this early? Yeah, for sure. We'll put like an
orchestral sting behind that maybe in the actual
episode. Organ only. Let's find some good organ
music and pump that in there. Of course. Yeah.
It's the 100 -year anniversary of The Phantom
of the Opera. It is. And I just saw on Instagram,
and I sent this to Vincent, that it's going to
be back up on the big screen in a ton of cities.
So people are like, I've never seen that. I don't
have access to it. Go see it on the big screen.
Yeah, with a live accompaniment, too. Yeah. The
best way to see a silent movie. Absolutely. If
anyone's in Minnesota, like go to the, I don't
know if it's playing at the Heights, but like
the Heights theater is like the best in town
for that kind of old standard feel. They have
a full organ on display that they play before
their movies. And it's such a treat. Paul, why,
why have we summoned you? Yeah, tell us about
yourself. Yeah, so I'm a Minneapolis -based film
critic and entertainment reporter. I'm a member
of the Critics' Choice Association. I'm a part
of the Minneapolis Film Critics Alliance. You
can find me on Rotten Tomatoes. I'm also, you
can, I do media appearances on KSTP, on Twin
Cities Live. I'm also on Fox 9 Good Day. Also
on My Talk 1071. And I'm also an Imagine, I'm
an ambassador for Imagine Theaters. And I'm in
their like pre -movie Welcome to Imagine video
and do a lot of social media for them. some of
my interviews get shared on their social media
sites and yeah, I'm all around town. Now on the
airwaves. Yes. But thank you for being here.
We'll put, thank you for having me. Yeah. We'll
have all the links to your goings ons in the
show notes for listeners to check you out. Follow
everyone. Follow Paul on Instagram, on other
socials. Yeah. This is going to be a good evening.
Okay, great. Sometimes we start an episode and
we're like, yeah, I don't know how well this
episode is going to go. But tonight we're like,
this is going to be great. We can feel it. God,
pressure's on. Pressure's on. Here we go. Yeah,
we can play some Angeloid Weber behind it. Just
really get in the spirit. Yeah. Just watch out
for any chandeliers. Don't walk under one. Absolutely.
Be careful. Well, let's get into some quick nuts
and bolts. Thank you for hanging out, all our
listeners out there. Rate and review wherever
you listen. You can also send us listener comments
at campkaiju at gmail .com. Follow us on Instagram
and also leave us some comments there at camp
underscore kaiju underscore podcast. If you'd
even like to be a featured voice on the show,
you can do that by leaving a voicemail at 612
-470 -2612. Just tell us about your favorite
monster movies, your fear of chandeliers, and
all your other monster movie memories. Check
out our website, campkaijupodcast .com, for more
reviews and content. And if you really want some
inside backstage passes to the opera house, so
to speak, become a Patreon patron member at patreon
.com slash campkaiju. You can get discounts on
our Threadless store, priority comments, any
live events we got going on. And just generally
more communication from me and Matt. Because
we love our patrons. And we're going to thank
you all right now. Jason, B. Struhl, Chris B.,
Sean, our anonymous patron, and Peggy. Couldn't
do it without you. Thank you so much. And I would
love it if those Patreon members came over to
my Patreon and followed me over there as well.
Paul's trip to the movies on Patreon. It's brand
new. So starting the Patreon voyage. Nice. Good
luck. Thank you. Teach me your ways. Paul, we
always like to feature this month in monster
movie history. So on the notes, there's a long
list of some titles released in October. Each
of us, we like to pick just one to geek out over
and highlight for a little monster movie history.
Any titles screaming at you? Well, I mean, literally
so many of them from Night of the Living Dead,
which is iconic, classic, groundbreaking. Little
known fact, my husband directed a musical version
of Night of the Living Dead that premiered here
a couple years ago, and it was a lot of fun,
and it was great. But I love Night of the Living
Dead. Nightmare Before Christmas, obviously a
classic. That Danny Elfman score, I obsess over
film scores, and that Danny Elfman one is...
can we say underrated i mean a lot of people
know it but i just see like in that pantheon
of danny elfman is so good that's great bed knobs
and broomsticks angela lansbury give me angela
every day all night long so yeah those are my
picks you took bed knobs and broomsticks from
me i grew up well now tell me why you love it
this isn't just we all can pick bed knobs and
broomsticks that's true Surprise Bedknobs and
Broomsticks episode, everybody. Absolutely. No,
I haven't seen it since I was a kid. Same. I'm
going to say that's probably more than 20 years
now. But since I've started this podcast, I've
thought about that movie in particular. Angela
Lansbury, just the best witch you could watch,
enjoy as a child. And then the animation, I'm
just curious, does that hold up, the blend of
animation with live action? I remember it being
kind of weird as a kid. Like, at the end, all
the suits of armor come to life, and there's,
like, a German World War I plot going on. That's
weird. In terms of animation, I would say that
it probably does, because I've watched Mary Poppins.
I mean, it's the same as Mary Poppins. Like,
it's that same type of style. And that still
holds up, in my opinion, and it's still magical
and still takes you back to why you love that
movie in the first place. I love Mary Poppins.
And after my daughter was born, like... It's
not like she can really watch it, but it was
lovely to have her in the background and sing
those songs to her. Nice. Bedknobs and Broomsticks
will have to be next on her watch list. Absolutely.
I'm going to share in the Bedknobs and Broomsticks
love as well. That played a huge role in my childhood.
My parents would like, they had like crates and
boxes of like old VHS, like blank VHS tapes.
And they would just like record any movie that
was playing on TV that was like appropriate for
kids on there. And Bedknobs and Broomsticks was
the one that I would just watch on repeat. I'm
sure that like VHS tape is just like mangled
beyond repair by now. But I watched it all the
time when I was a kid. And with the animation,
like I miss movies that combine live action and
animation and Mary Poppins does that too. It's
just a style you don't really see all that much
anymore. And it's such a whimsical, like fantastic
visual style. I wish, you know, somebody should
bring that back because it's just so magical,
you know? They did a bit of that with Mary Poppins
Returns, the Emily Blunt, Lin -Manuel Miranda,
like new take on Mary Poppins. And I thought
it worked well just to kind of honor the original.
And yeah, I wish they would do it again. Yeah.
I think Disney's Wish was in 2D, if I remember
correctly. And then people panned it because
they were like, oh, it looks so dated. It doesn't
look good. I'm like, that was the point. It's
the 100th anniversary movie. Get over yourselves
already and just be nostalgic. I don't know.
Yeah. Dated is kind of a good thing sometimes,
I think. Yeah. What is coming up? New horror
releases, monster movie releases. Paul, you're
the guy to give us the inside scoop. What's on
your radar? What's on my radar? There's a few
movies on my radar. Some are monsters, some are
not. But we'll start with the monster -y one
first. It's Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein,
which I'm very excited about. Love a lot of his
movies. This is right up his alley. I mean, it
just looks... tailor -made for him and he will
make it with his true vision which i'm very much
looking forward to there's that and then other
just movies coming out that i'm excited for is
wicked for good i love wicked and i love act
two of wicked which is what this movie is so
i just cannot Wait. Some of my favorite music
from the musical is in Act Two, which is in For
Good. And I'm just like losing my mind over it.
So that's exciting. Ham Nets from Chloe Zhao.
I love Shakespeare and Hamlet. And this is like
going into what that story is a bit. And I just
think that it's getting rave reviews from the
people that have seen it. It's the opening night
film at the Twin Cities Film Festival. So I'm
looking forward to that. And then there's a movie
coming out around Christmas called Is This Thing
On? Written by Will Arnett and Bradley Cooper.
directed by Bradley Cooper about a guy going
into standup comedy in the wake of his divorce.
And I think it looks excellent and looks like,
you know, is this a great career move? Is he
having this midlife crisis? Will Arnett is great.
I love Bradley Cooper's movies as a writer and
director. So I'm, I'm all in. Yeah. And Laura
Dern. I mean, Queen Laura Dern is in it. So like,
of course I'll be there. Oh man. Are you, you
don't have to answer, I guess, but like, are
you? Are you going to interview any of these
folks? I don't think I'm getting Frankenstein
because I already did interviews for that and
I didn't get it. Crossing my fingers for Wicked
for good. I interviewed Michelle Yeoh for the
first Wicked. So hopefully I'll get something
for the new one. I would love to get Hamnet.
I would love to get Is This Thing On? I do sometimes
get search likes. I think they're doing Is This
Thing On? So I would hope to get something for
that. But I mean, we'll see. The industry is
really changing right now with... who gets interviews
who gets to do press junkets who gets access
to things and that's we don't need to go into
it it's too long of a conversation for this but
yeah it's the industry is really changing with
that so we'll see yeah i yeah if this was another
podcast or just getting some coffee i would love
to yeah yeah learn about that yeah a couple days
ago i watched matango directed by ashiro honda
who we've talked about so much on the podcast
and matango is amazing i loved it it's like so
different from godzilla and many of his other
kaiju movies it is a monster movie it's kind
of about like a strain of mutated fungus and
it has like a lot of the same themes of like
you know the atomic bombings of hiroshima and
nagasaki as well as just like class consciousness
and things like that but it's a little bit darker
and more foreboding and surreal than a lot of
the other ishiro honda movies that i've seen
so uh yeah i wish i knew a little bit more about
new stuff coming up but like the old stuff I've
seen recently has been fantastic. You brought
up Matango. Paul, this is a movie I recommend
to anybody. And it's really trippy and really
horrifying, actually. This sounds like The Last
of Us, but like on an island. And starring a
bunch of young, dumb people. So send it my way.
I'll watch it. Yeah. It's less zombie -ish than
The Last of Us. But yeah, aside from that, it
has a lot of parallels for sure. Right. Yeah.
It's American release was called Attack of the
Mushroom People. Oh, wow. There you go. You'll
find that around. One newer movie that I'm curious
about, and I don't know if it's totally a monster
movie, but have either of you guys seen him yet?
Which is like the football horror movie? No.
I have been wanting to see it, have not had a
chance to yet. Same. Yeah, it just looks so interesting
and compelling. I mean, there's a lot of criticism
you could apply to football and the NFL, and
I feel like that movie is obviously getting to
that a little bit. And it seems kind of monsterish,
kind of horrorish, so I'm excited to see it.
I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Yeah,
a good psychological thriller. Yeah. We're going
into 2026 here, but I'm... I'm a big Scream fan.
So like I'm looking forward to Scream 7, like
with my whole heart. And I just finished reading
a great book called Your Favorite Scary Movie
by Ashley Collins. And it's a big deep dive into
the Scream franchise. And she has like over 80
interviews with like everyone involved in that
franchise. So it's been, it was a phenomenal
read. Great read for any Scream fans out there.
And I'm looking forward to the new one. Cool.
That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is
your history? Paul or Matt, with either The Phantom
of the Opera, this specific Lon Chaney film,
or the, I guess, the property as a whole in all
of its iterations? My entry point is really just
the musical. I have not seen, I've not read the
book. I've not seen the movie until I prepped
for this. But my entry point into Phantom is
the Angeloid Webber musical that I've seen a
bunch of times on TV. tour and that even a newer
iteration that they did on tour and then i've
seen it a couple times on broadway before it
closed on broadway so i'm very familiar with
the android weber of it all and what that is
like so it was kind of interesting to see this
movie with that in the back of my head and to
see like where maybe where the musical kind of
pays homage to the movie and does some different
things and yeah it's not my favorite musical
at all i think it's There's a big inside joke
in my house because my husband really loves it.
And he's got some just deep personal connections
to it. So we try to see it when we can. And the
last time we saw it on Broadway, there was a
big stage mishap. But that's not even the story
I'm going to tell you. We get to the end of the
first act and Raul and Christine are singing
All I Ask of You. this is like their second scene
together and now we're supposed to believe that
they have this great love song to end all love
songs i'm like did we earn it like what is happening
right now and i've seen the show so many times
and yet you know weber what are you doing here
like i don't know not not a fan not my favorite
android weber musical by any means that's funny
i'm the opposite i have never seen the stage
musical i saw i've seen the movie oh trash Yeah,
even then. Schumacher, what were you doing? Yeah.
Does not work. I mean, everyone got paid and,
you know, kudos to them. I first watched in its
entirety this Lon Chaney 1925 version just a
few years ago, and I fell in love with it. And
I've always been a fan of silent movies, though
I haven't done like a big deep dive until recently.
And now the musical is touring again. And I am
definitely going to buy my ticket because now
I want to see what the musical does now that
I've seen the movie first. So I'm the opposite
of you in that regard. So I'm excited. I can't
wait. And the longest running show on Broadway,
it has toured 85 ,000 times. And I'm just surprised
that you've never seen it. I, I, I'm a theater
guy. I was going to say like, yeah yeah yeah
and i've you know every time i go to broadway
i try to see a musical but maybe because it was
always running i just took it for granted see
now it's too late you're 30 years too late well
actually i take that back because there's a new
like immersive production of phantom that's off
broadway called masquerade And you like go throughout,
it's like an immersive kind of site specific
where you go throughout the space. There's like
five different people playing the Phantom at
different points of the show. Like it's the musical,
but done differently. Like they did this with
Cats or like last season called Cats Angelical
Ball, which then featured Cats, but told like
a post, like a ball competition. And it worked
really well. I didn't see it. I guess I shouldn't.
have a definitive opinion but people are kind
of loving this take on phantom called masquerade
so i'm like well i would see that and we'll see
the tour like we've got our season tickets so
like we'll we'll see it but nice maybe i'll see
you there matt yeah probably Um, so yeah, I mostly
come to this through like more on the film side.
Like I remember seeing the Lon Chaney Phantom
of the Opera, which we're talking about tonight
a long time ago, like in high school when I first
like really got into movies and I was like renting
every movie from the library I possibly could.
I watched this in Hunchback with Lon Chaney right
around that time, but I haven't seen it since
then. And that's, you know, dating myself a little
bit, but that would be like more than 20 years
ago now. But that's my main entry point into
Phantom of the Opera. I did see the Andrew Lloyd
Webber musical when I was in middle school, I
think, in Chicago with my family. And that's
a sign of how popular the musical is, because
I'm not even really a big musical guy. And this
is one of the few that I've actually seen. So
I remember liking it at the time, but I was an
undiscerning 15 -year -old. So what did I know
at the time? Hey, I mean... But at 15, your family
should get to see it because it's accessible.
A lot of non -musical lovers go to it. It's like
their kind of entry point into Broadway or music
theater. It's different than a lot of musicals
out there. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you can make
a point that that's a good or a bad thing, that
it's sort of like the musical for people who
don't like musicals. It's a whole other podcast.
Right, exactly. But yeah, I definitely came at
it more from the film side. I do also want to
mention that even though this was only the second
time I've seen Phantom of the Opera, I've seen
Phantom of the Paradise by Brian De Palma like
10 times, which is a great sort of like homage
to slash like subversion of Phantom of the Opera
and sort of like updates a lot of the themes
for the 1970s when it was made. So weirdly enough,
I feel like I know De Palma's like... re -envisioning
of it more than the actual original version of
it. And I do want to shout out that movie because
it's incredible. If you haven't seen Phantom
of the Paradise, it's great. I haven't, but I
liked De Palma's work. Oh, you'd like that movie.
Yeah, he's a director that I really need to know
more of. I've obviously seen every Spielberg
movie and most of Scorsese. So that group of
filmmakers that all came out together and came
up together and were friends together. Yeah,
he's like the one of those five that I'm like,
I still need to see more of his work. I love
him. One of the most visually stylish directors
of all time, for sure. Well, I mean, Carrie,
I mean, that's classic for a reason. And that's
all that's a lot of that's him. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think Phantom of the Paradise he
made either right before or right after Carrie.
I can't quite remember, but it's around that
same time and has a lot of the same just like
visual energy as Carrie. So yeah, yeah. Won't
spend too much time on that movie, but it's awesome.
Great. Future episode. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So
you all are talking and I'm thinking about, like,
why did I choose this movie? I mean, because
it is the Phantom of the Opera. Through pop culture,
we have just, like, we just know it, right? We
all know the, if not the story, we know the mask.
And, oh, there's a guy who stalks a woman under
an opera house. There's a lot of music. But going
back to this, I would say, original iteration,
does it stand the test of time? Does a silent
movie still carry weight with us? I mean, we're
film lovers here, but maybe some listeners out
there feel differently. Even us. I mean, we love
film. We can appreciate film, but... Is it more
of a historical artifact, if that makes sense,
that we appreciate? Or is it a film that still
truly captivates us in a way, in a storytelling
element? Over this conversation, I'm excited
to dive into all aspects, the history, the artistic
merit. I may be getting the sense that I like
this or like this even more than you do or did
or whatever, but I don't want to provide any
spoilers. So we'll find out over the course of
this episode. Here is all you've ever wanted
in entertainment, in one superb show. Here is
matchless story, suspenseful, terrifying, never
so thrillingly presented. Here in breathtaking
technicolor is superb spectacle and splendor
and romance. Here is a chorus of a hundred voices,
a ballet of a hundred dancers, a cast of a thousand.
Starring Nelson Eddy in his most vigorous performance.
lovely Susanna Foster, and Claude Rains in the
most coveted role of the year as the Phantom
of the Opera. My music! You've stolen it! You've
stolen my music! Some stories have so great a
power that with each new generation, They are
reborn. It was a feeling, a passion. But it had
to come from somewhere. This was no phantom.
Ghosts do not skin their victims. This is the
work of an artist. We will make music that the
world will love forever. Take the last step to
me. You are the angel. You are my voice. I feel
him and I hear him. I don't want this feeling
ever to go away. The Phantom of the Opera. The
all -time horror classic. The Phantom is real.
It has a name. Is now a major motion picture.
You love the music. I am the music. A lot of
people are dead, Mr. Dutton, and the murderer
is in your house. Someone is doing murder in
Christine Day's name. Our souls are one. No!
Robert Englund is... You're him, aren't you?
The Phantom of the Opera. The Phantom of the
Opera. Only love and music are forever. So this
movie was directed by Rupert Julian. He was one
of Universal's top directors at the time. He
had kind of taken over the production of Mary
Go Round, which had been an Eric von Stroheim
movie, I believe. I'm 98 % sure about that. Sorry,
I'm kind of going off the top of my head right
here. But that kind of like, yeah, that put him
in like the good graces of the Universal like
head honchos. So yeah, Rupert Julian was kind
of one of the top directors at the time. He took
over for Phantom of the Opera. It's probably
his best known surviving work. Did not get along
very well with some of the cast and crew, but
we'll probably talk about that a little bit more
later. The supplemental director of Phantom of
the Opera was Edward Sedgwick. He took over after
Rupert Julian kind of left the project or was
replaced towards the end of the shooting. Sedgwick
directed the final chase through Paris. Like
I was kind of just alluding to, the relationship
between Lon Chaney and Rupert Julian kind of
soured during the making of the movie, so that's
why Sedgwick took over at some point. He had
a flair for comedy, having directed all but one
of Buster Keaton's films at MGM, so Phantom of
the Opera may be kind of a strange choice for
Edward Sedgwick. The producer was Carl Lemel,
the famous Carl Lemel. Carl Lemel Jr., of course,
was the main producer in a lot of the universal
horror movies that would be made over the next
15 to 20 years. So Carl Lemel, German immigrant
who co -founded Universal Pictures in 1912. The
scenario of Phantom of the Opera was by Elliot
Clausen, and it was from the novel, which I believe
was published in 1910, written by Gaston Leroux.
I got nothing else. Oh, the cameraman. Do you
know that Buster Keaton film? Yeah. Yep. It's
a good one. You know, I feel like as far as Keaton
movies go, I feel like Sherlock Jr. does similar
things in like a better, more interesting, funnier,
more bizarre way. But The Cameraman is very cool.
I like that movie a lot. That was directed by
Edward Sedgwick. My first experiences with silent
film was in high school. And anytime TCM played
a silent movie, I tried to be there to watch
it. I quickly kind of discerned that if it's
a funny movie, silent movie, or a horror silent
movie, my attention is just that much more focused.
It was some of the dramas that I would get a
little lost in and, you know, it was kind of
hard to watch sometimes. But Buster Keaton was
my favorite in high school. Yeah, before I got
into like Charlie Chaplin stuff. I think I'm
a Buster Keaton guy. I feel like I'm at the point
where I love them both equally. And I'm like,
can we all just get along? Keaton and Chaplin
are like equally great in different ways, in
my opinion. But I feel like both of them together
and also Harold Lloyd, like for people that don't
like, you know, haven't seen a lot of silent
movies, maybe aren't sure if they would like
them. Start with those three silent comedians.
Those hold up extremely well. Actually, just
real quick. The first Lon Chaney movie I ever
saw was called The Monster. And that was released
in 1925, the same year as Phantom. And that one's
readily available just kind of in the public
domain. And he plays a mad scientist in a house
of horrors who like lures people to his home.
And there's like monstrosities around. So if
you haven't seen The Monster, I'd recommend that
one too. I hope you put all these titles in the
notes that people can go back to their bibliography
and like write down all the things we're talking
about. I don't know if you ever, you know, do
that, but. God, I've got ideas now. Yeah. That
is a good idea. We do that with like reviews
and like books that we reference sometimes, but
I don't know if we really do that for movies.
Maybe we do. Sorry if I'm wrong about that, Vincent,
but yeah, we should do that. No, I've never considered
our listeners in that way. And we're not going
to. All right, we'll do it. Yeah. All right.
And I think just a pronunciation check. Lemley
is how I've always heard Carl Lemley's name.
Well, good old Carl Lemley decided he would go
and cast his niece in the piece as one of the
prima ballerinas. She was 15 at the time, and
she lived a long, good life. She lived until
2014 and died at 104. Like, my God, I don't want
to live that long. So you will not. hopefully
see me that long. But yeah, that's really great.
So a little family connection there to Carl,
his niece, as the prima valerina. You have Arthur
Edmund Carew as the inspector. That character
was called the Persian in the novel. And he was
a very well -respected Armenian actor, Armenian
-American actor at the time, which I think is
really cool. He was thought to maybe be considered
for Dracula. But then, of course, Bela Lugosi
went on to play Dracula. And I read, interestingly
enough, in the musical, the Inspector Ledoux
character is not in that musical. Am I right
about that? I don't think so. That doesn't ring
a bell to me. Interesting. I'm more familiar
with Madame Jury and Raoul and The Phantom and
Christine and Carlotta. Well, yeah, Mary Philbin.
Yeah, she goes and plays Christine. If people
don't know Christine Daae, she is the main, like,
ingenue that the Phantom has, is entranced over,
wants. And Mary Philbin began her acting career
after she won a beauty pageant sponsored by Universal.
Easy way in there. She only made a couple of
films. I mean, this is 1925. She retired in 1930
after she dubbed her voice, which we'll talk
about in a later iteration of Phantom. She redubbed
her voice for it. And that was kind of the end
of her career. pop out for the 1989 premiere
of the musical. So kind of made a little appearance
there, which I think is really cool, but yeah.
And then Norman Carey played Raul and Raul is
the one that loves Christine. It's kind of fighting
over the Phantom over Christine and it's kind
of love triangle that takes place in the show.
And he's tall, dark, handsome played by Patrick
Wilson in the movie musical from the, one of
the few highlights of that movie was Patrick
Wilson. And, you know, we now know him in the
conjuring universe. He was in the Volonti on
Broadway. Gorgeous, gorgeous singing voice, but
yeah. He would also star with Lon Chaney in Hunchback
of Notre Dame, The Unknown. He also re -recorded
his voice for The Phantom of 1929 as well. But
I guess they're all working for Universal contract
players. Contract players. Tis the day, tis the
time. Yeah, studio era. I love classic Hollywood
history personally, so Lon Chaney. I've always
been aware of. He was born Leonidas Chaney. And
he was one of the biggest stars of the day in
an era where there were more stars in the MGM
studio than in heaven. That was what MGM said.
But he worked with MGM. He worked with Universal.
He kind of did everything, worked with everybody
from the very beginning. He moved to Hollywood
in 1912. And started working in pictures then.
Before then, he was in the vaudeville circuit
doing a lot of, you know, comedies, melodramas,
burlesque, even all sorts of things. He was born
in Colorado, Colorado Springs, I think. And I
just found this is like, I think, central to
his persona. He is so. connected to silent movies
because he has such a strong physicality. And
that was actually born out of necessity. His
parents, both of whom were deaf. So from the
very beginning, he was needing to pantomime just
to communicate with his parents. I think a really
fun fact, but also just like an important fact
is his maternal grandparents founded the Colorado
school for the deaf in 1874, which is still in
existence in Colorado. So I just, I just think
that's a legacy worth noting here. Yeah. Chaney
knew ASL and brought all of these talents to,
or all these skills rather to. his talents then
on the screen. He made his big break in a movie
called The Miracle Man, which is now lost. But
he played a con artist who fakes being a paraplegic.
And throughout the course of the movie, he fakes
a miracle and then he can suddenly walk. And
that movie was in 1919. Then in 1920, he played
a gangster without legs in a movie called The
Penalty, which I think I think it's partially
lost or mostly lost, but there are still some
snippets that exist. But this was like the first
time Chaney, I would say, physically tortured
himself, which sounds hyperbolic. And I think
you can get into like the, maybe the more like
the ethics of like torturing yourself for your
craft. But he did in movies like Hunchback of
Notre Dame, Phantom. And this movie, The Penalty,
to achieve the effect of being legless, he bound
his legs behind him so tightly that he actually
suffered nerve damage for the rest of his life.
But the effect was monumental. Audiences lost
their minds and a star was born, to borrow a
phrase. So his, I was going to say his peak,
his heyday was the 1920s, but that was really
it. Because then he ended up dying in 1930. of
lung cancer. He was 47 years old. He was survived
by his son, who became Lon Chaney Jr., we all
know and love from The Wolfman and other universal
horror classics. But Lon Chaney Jr.'s mother
was an actress as well. And in the early days
of her and Lon Sr.'s relationship, it was a very
troubled marriage. And his first wife, Lon Chaney
Jr.'s mother, attempted suicide on stage by drinking
poison. She survived this, but it scarred her
vocal cords beyond repair so she can never sing
again like she did before. Chaney won custody
of their son. And it's just all, I think, relevant
to the characters that Lon Chaney plays in his
movies. He's very well known for playing these
emotionally... fraught but sincere characters.
There's a lot of humanity in his performances.
And when you know a little bit about his background,
his parents, his marriage, his family life, it's
just, you know, as an actor, I could, you know,
he has a lot to pull from. I mean, talk about
like a rich and complicated life legacy that
you can pull from at a very young age and tragic
at the same time. And what he would do for his
art. And, you know, sometimes you hear of those
types of, I don't think most actors these days
would ever go to those lengths, nor should they
by any means. Yeah. I mean, you hear, you hear
about actors, you know, immersing themselves
in the roles, which is kind of crap, but not
to this extent. I don't think it would be, I
don't think it would be approved of by the studios,
by the insurance companies to do that. anymore
i think when we talk about the making of this
film you'll see oh that would never happen anymore
and even the story is like a dated story and
some of the movies that you were describing like
oh they would never make that movie anymore that
would that would not be a story anymore or perhaps
we cast actors who look like the characters they're
playing well there's that concept representation
right yeah it kind of like the closest thing
i can think of nowadays is like the weight fluctuations
for example that like christian bale goes through
or whatever but i feel like it's a totally different
thing like it almost seems like a stunt in my
opinion when christian bale does it but like
for cheney it's like fully becoming that character
now i mean not to you know hate on christian
bale too much but i feel like it's just like
a different yeah like just reaffirming what both
you guys said like cheney pours himself into
these characters and these roles to a greater
extent and probably a more dangerous extent than
any actor would do nowadays. Right. And if you
are one of those types of actors, you're probably
going to piss off your crew, your cast, because
of what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. And Lon Chaney
was, by some people's accounts, difficult to
work with. He shunned the limelight, actually.
He was one of those actors who didn't... He rarely
gave interviews. He rarely gave the paparazzi
any time of day. However, there's plenty of stories
to the opposite, too, where he was very respectful
of his co -stars. Joan Crawford, in one of her
first movies, worked with him on The Unknown.
And she's on the record stating that he took
her under his wing and showed her the ropes and
gave her a lot of acting lessons that she took
with her. So people, we're all, we contain multitudes.
yeah oh my god did you okay side tangent did
you see the life of chuck no oh that's like the
main theme of the life of chuck is that we all
contain multitudes oh really it's so good it's
based on a short story by stephen king written
and directed by mike flanagan It's one of my
favorite movies of the year. And they talk about
this idea that we're all multitudes. And this
beautiful scene as Chuck is a kid in his classroom
and his teacher, who's played by Kate Siegel,
gives this great monologue to him, kind of holding
his head, reminding him, like, we're all multitudes.
And that's so good. Yes. I thought that's what
you were quoting, to be quite honest. Cool. To
be totally honest, I had low expectations with
the trailer. I didn't think the trailer looked
all that good. But on your recommendation, I
will move it up the list now. it's just one of
those like once you watch you're like i am so
moved and inspired by this story and it's maybe
it's because i'm a king fan maybe it's because
i'm a mike flanagan fan and all of that together
and different type of storytelling for both of
them different type of story for both of them
and it all is beautiful wow cool i'll move it
up the list can i can i mention one more thing
about lon chaney real quick just to go back on
topic or whatever Well, I was reading, you know,
doing, trying to do a little research before
tonight. I read that he worked pretty closely
with Mary Philbin too, and like tried to coach
her a little bit since this was kind of an early
role for her. And like, one of the things he
told her from what I read was that like, you
know, in performing on screen for the camera,
as opposed to performing on stage, like. You
just want to make sure that the audience feels
your emotions. You don't want to necessarily
emote to the rafters and display every single
movement and every tear and every single gesture.
He was kind of trying to teach Mary Philbin a
little bit. Subtlety goes a long way, and it
might help the audience in a movie theater really
feel what you're going through instead of over
-emoting. And I just thought that was kind of
interesting that he tried to work with her closely
on this production. Bring it back to the Dracula
connection. This is kind of in the legacy, release
and legacy. So right before Chaney died, this
was in 1931, Universal was already talking about
doing Bram Stoker's Dracula with Todd Browning,
who did direct it. And Browning and Chaney had
worked together on like 10 previous movies. They
were pitch perfect for each other. But then Chaney
died. And then Universal literally offered. the
role to everybody on the roster, including our
actor, Carew, who plays Inspector Ledoux. Nobody
wanted to do it. Bela Lugosi offered to do it,
I think, don't quote me on this, but I think
it was like $500 a week, which was such a drastic
pay cut, even at the time, like that was nothing.
But Lugosi was a Hungarian immigrant, new to
Hollywood. He said, I'll do it. And Carl Laemmle
finally said, fine. Legosi, you can have it.
And it turned him into a star. Wow. Chain's death
like kind of opened. I hate those stories. Like
someone has to die to open, you know, the path
for the up and comer, but it's a classic story
nonetheless. And it's kind of true in this case.
Yeah. In retrospect, why would you not want to
play Dracula? It's such a star turn, you know,
surprising, but different time. Getting back
to Phantom of the Opera. So the novel by Gaston
Leroux was published in 1910. Lon Chaney optioned
the film rights in November of 1923. Universal
wanted him to make the film for $100 ,000. He
consulted with his business manager who said
it could not be done for less than $200 ,000.
In modern terms or, you know, modern money amounts,
that amounts to $200 ,000 would be about $3 .65
million. Phantom of the Opera is well known for
having no trick or mat shots. There were five
tiers of theater boxes that were built to replicate
the real Paris Opera House. The entirety of stage
28 on the Universal backlot was dedicated to
the set. It was not torn down until 2021 and
was featured in many other movies. It's a fantastic
set. In my opinion, one of the best things about
this movie, you can tell just how enormous and
grandiose these sets are. And so when I watched
this movie a couple days ago, I thought that
they like tinted the film, which was done with
a lot of silent movies at the time. But it turns
out I was wrong. It was actually done with an
early process of technicolor for some scenes,
including the film's masquerade ball scene. I
think it was like a two strip technicolor as
opposed to like three strip technicolor, which
would become a lot more famous later with The
Wizard of Oz and other movies. So it has a really
kind of fantastic, bizarre, you know, bold reds
and blues kind of color scheme for certain scenes.
which looks really amazing. I love that. I just
love real sets. Screw CGI. Build a real set and
have actors walking around your set. It makes
a world of difference. It's like in Rear Window.
The whole apartment is real and is not built
on a soundstage and that high up that Hitchcock
is filming at. I think that's a crazy story too.
The chandelier scene in Phantom that's so infamous
is actually a camera trick where they Not even
a trick per se, but they filmed it rising and
then reversed it so it looks like it's falling
down on the set. And of course, in the musical,
it's a big moment in the musical. We talked about
Lon Chaney's makeup. He did all of his own makeup
prosthetics for the movie. You've got a bald
cap. You've got gross hair. He glued his ears
back to his head. He put wires in his nose to
make it look like his face was more skeleton
looking. I mean, his teeth are all gross. Like,
it's really cool effects for the era. But you,
again, you would never do that nowadays. You
would never have an actor doing his own makeup
like that. You would have a makeup department,
a hair department. And unless it is some really
scrappy independent movie where the actors are
all doing multiple jobs in a big studio picture
like this, you would never have that. So I think
it's really cool that... He did it all and it's
effective. I mean, when you have the unmasking,
it's really, it's a really great shot and really
cool effect that they did. The Universal's marketing
department did not want any photos of him maskless.
So like they didn't want to spoil the effect
of it. And it's, it's well done. I mean, he's,
it's, it's a good effect, good makeup. I think
it speaks to the early days of Hollywood where
it was more, I don't know, vaudevillian and just
more. Scrappy. Like we don't have a makeup department.
That's you. You got to bring your toolbox. Yeah.
Your tackle box. Yeah. Tackle your pen nine number
five. Yes. Mine's in my daughter's room right
now. Theater school. Yes. So the production of
this story, this movie, began in November of
1924. Lon Chaney had just, he who gets slapped
at MGM had just been released, and he starts
production on Phantom. The movie as a whole goes
through several different iterations. Lots of
test screenings are involved, but the original
ending had Eric, the Phantom of the Opera, dying
in his lair of a broken heart. This very first
iteration screened in January of 1925. Preview
audiences hated it. they were confused by this
ending. So now Universal brings in Sedgwick to
direct whole new scenes, leveraging his background
on comedy and action. So this new version is
more light in tone, and it ran in 1925, and preview
audiences also hated it. So now Universal's like,
okay, what do we gotta do? They... They cut most
of the Sedgwick footage, actually, except the
ending, that climactic chase through the streets
of Paris. They add back in most of the Rupert
Julian footage, the initial footage, to bring
back in that sense of mystery. And yeah, I'd
say mystery to the movie. Now, this was a two
-hour version. Like that full entirety of that
print no longer exists. But there's a shorter
version. I don't even know where that footage
went. But that 1925 print is available today.
And this is the one that stuck. So in September
1925, Universal had a smash on their hands with
The Phantom of the Opera. Now four years go by
and we have... the use and innovation of talking
movies with the synchronization of sound so universal
to capitalize on this and a lot of studios well
like all the studios did while they were making
new movie new talkies they went back into their
catalog for their hits to add synchronized sound
a lot of these were just adding sound effects
or music nothing too difficult for them to do
But Universal did that and added some voices
like Mary Philbin's and Norman Carey's. So they
came back into the studio to dub some lines.
Lon Chaney, however, at this time was on contract
with MGM. So it's really unfortunate that he
does not lend his voice to this new 1929 talkie
version. It kind of is a moot point anyways because,
again, like a lot of silent films, much of this
talky version is lost to history. There are,
again, snippets that do exist. I, for example,
like I have the Kino Lorber Blu -ray edition
and on the bonus features, you can listen, you
can watch the 1929 version with whatever sound
is still left. So it's kind of a... really interesting
watch, but nothing like truly fundamentally different.
So yeah, just a cool, complicated, historically
interesting production history there and release.
Yeah. And reason number like 4 ,000, why studios
should not listen to audience previews or like
audience preview cards. It's never a good idea
that has mangled so many movies throughout the
history of cinema. It makes no sense. They went
back to Julian's more or less original version.
Yeah. Ridiculous. Just closing out the production
and release backstory here a little bit. Universal
remade the film in 1943 with Claude Rains as
the Phantom. I have not seen that. Have either
of you guys seen that 1943 version? No, but it's
in the Universal box set that I have. And I was
surprised that they didn't go with the Lon Chaney
one. Like I pulled that. I was like, oh, interesting.
Okay. Yeah, that is surprising. It's something
I've always noticed as a Universal horror fan.
Like the Chaney version is never included in
these box sets. I've seen the Claude Rains version.
Watch it for yourselves. But it is... That's
a ringing endorsement right there. Watch it for
yourself. Ringing endorsement. Yeah. I'm speaking
to critics here. We know the language of the
trade. It's much heavier on the romance and the
melodrama and the music than the horror. So it's...
As a horror movie, it's not very effective. Well,
maybe one reason it's not in that Universal box
set is because Universal did not renew the copyright
in 1953. The film has been popular and acclaimed
ever since its release. The Face of the Phantom
is ubiquitous in pop culture, tons of tributes
and parodies over the years. Obviously, we've
talked about some of them already on the podcast.
And it features in a main attraction at Universal's
Epic Universe theme park, which, Vincent, I'm
sure you know well since you grew up in Orlando.
I don't know this park, actually. It's just opened
up in the past couple years. Ah. Well, their
new park called Epic Universe, there's a section
that's devoted entirely to the Universal Monsters.
So I am dying, literally dying to get there.
And their main ride is like a roller coaster
through all the monsters. And the Phantom is
there. I want to go. That sounds great. Yeah.
So just being in touch with the merch and everything,
Chaney's Phantom is kind of all over the place.
Yeah. And just when you think about Phantom and
the zeitgeist, I think you either think of the
musical and that mask and that legacy or Lon
Chaney's depiction and those images that are
so ubiquitous to Phantom. I don't think about
the Claude Rains one, because I haven't seen
it. Maybe what I would see would be like, oh,
I know that scene, but I doubt it. When I was
watching this, I was like, oh yeah, these are
the clips that I know of Phantom. yeah just last
week in target you know they have a section of
collectors toys and things and it's like in the
back by the books and in a little like there's
a little action figure of the phantom in his
red death costume which i love with the the skull
and the red robe and the feathered hat and it's
like an action figure in target in 2025 i was
like this is so awesome That's great. He lives.
I listened to some of the sound snippets that
you talked about, Vincent, on the Kino Lorber
Blu -ray, because I borrowed that from you. It
just kind of proves the point a little bit. This
feels like it should be a silent movie. you know,
hear even like certain scenes with sound to it
just doesn't feel right. You know, I just feel
like in our collective unconscious for people
that care about movies or know this movie, like
it's just, it's a foundational silent movie.
You know what I mean? So that's just to prove
the point that like it's really entrenched in
our like national unconscious, I think. Yeah.
Well, Matt, shall we get to our sponsor break?
Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Hamkaiju is sponsored
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in the show notes. Matt, what do we have in old
Minya's mailbox? Yeah, what do we have in Minya's
mailbox? Minya's mailbox, as always, is brought
to you by Patreon. If you become a patron, then
your comments are tops. It looks like we have
something about Space Amoeba in Minya's mailbox
today. Yeah, a couple things about Space Amoeba,
actually. Would you do the honors? Oh, sure.
I didn't know if this was the entire thing, but...
UV Rodriguez says, I love Saturn video and cafe.
And that's a shout out. We had Saturn video and
cafe on a recent episode. So yes, we love Saturn
video as well. Yeah. And then Mark on Instagram
left us comments about Space Amoeba as well.
He said, just finished this one. Really liked
this title. My favorite episodes are the ones
which cover these more obscure titles. Great
episode, guys. Thank you, Mark. We really appreciate
it. I also love the title Space Amoeba and that
movie. Glad you liked that episode. Yes. Thank
you, Mark. Thank you, UV Rodriguez and everyone
else listening. We actually have quite a few
Space Amoeba comments that I'll just pepper throughout
the upcoming episodes here. But this is a good
opportunity to remind our listeners that coming
up next on Camp Kaiju, we have 20 Million Miles
to Earth, the Ray Harryhausen effects -driven
sci -fi movie from the 50s. It's about an alien
that crash lands on Earth and grows to gigantic
proportions, of course. And we're hoping Naomi
Osborne, friend of the pod, joins us for that
one. But another friend of the pod is Mr. Peter
Lorre. And he's going to cover a 1946 Aubrey
Row film called The Brute Man. And as Letterboxd
says, it is about a facially disfigured and mentally
unhinged man. who wreaks his revenge on those
he blames for his condition. That actually kind
of sounds like the Phantom of the Opera. But
I guess nothing is new in horror films. But I'll
let Mr. Lurie take that one away. Welcome to
the Poverty Row Studios on the other side of
Hollywood, where the stars were dimmer and the
red carpets dripped with blood. Together we will
watch the best of the worst, all movies known
for their limited budgets, their outlandish concepts,
and questionable performances, but with enough
haunted houses, zombies, ape men, and devil bats
to keep you up at night. Yes. Is the poverty
role picture show, and I dare you to sleep through
these nightmares. Open here I flung the shutter,
when, with many a flirt and flutter, in there
stepped the stately raven of the saintly days
of yore. Not the least obeisance made he, not
a minute stopped or stayed he. but with mean
of lord or lady perched above my chamber door,
perched upon a bust of palace just above my chamber
door, perched and sat and nothing more. Oh, oh,
you startled me, listeners. Oh, well, will you
excuse me while I close my Edgar Allan Poe's
copy of The Raven? Yes, it is. It is not so bizarre
a thing for a man to do alone in the basement
of his home. Sorry, Vincent's home. No, no, no,
dear listeners. I swear this is just a book.
A little velvet cover with a little bookmark.
But I digress. I would like to tell you that
I was in the movie called The Raven for Roger
Corman. Yes, dear listeners. So it all makes
sense now. Well, okay, here we go. Tonight on
the Poverty Row Picture Show, we will discuss
the 1944 movie The Brute Man, starring Rondo
Hatton as The Creeper. Yes, The Creeper is a
back -breaking psychomaniac from a series of
universal horror chillers in the 40s. Now, the
actor, Rondo Hatton, was a man who suffered from
acromagaly in real life. This is the glandular
disorder that enlarges the face and the limbs.
And for better or worse, Hatton puts his mean
mug to work for Hollywood. At the Universal,
his creeper character was featured in The Pearl
of Death, House of Horrors, and The Brute Man.
This latter picture would prove Hatton's swan
song, sadly. The actor died from his acromagaly
six months before the release of the film itself.
Fittingly, the movie The Brute Man treats the
Creeper with a newfound sense of sympathy. I
mean, his crimes, as heinous as they are, you
can't help but feel for the guy. He's just a
serial murderer who's just misunderstood. Lastly,
it should be noted that the film was produced
by Universal Studios. and sold to the poverty
row company PRC for distribution. At this time
in 1944, Universal was on the verge of a merge
with International Pictures, so they were kind
of dumping all their B -movies off on the smaller
studios in favor of more, quote, prestige productions.
Yes, yes, well, well, well, well, be that as
it may, next time we will get back to scraping
the bottom of the B -barrel. with Return of the
Ape Man, starring Bela Lugosi and John Carradine.
Oh, oh, oh my goodness, listeners, what is, what
is this outside my window? It is, it is a winged
creature of the night. Oh my goodness, it is,
it is a, it is a raven, a raven tapping at my
window. 20th Century Fox presents Phantom of
the Paradise, a gothic horror story. What was
that? A beautiful love story. A cinematic odyssey
through the rock universe. From grease to glitter.
Wow! and beyond the story of a sound the man
who created it the girl who sang it the monster
who stole it and the phantom who haunts the paradise
the ultimate rock palace Of the Paradise. My
music is for Phoenix. Only she can sing it. Anyone
else that tries dies. Phoenix. Phoenix. Well,
you told me one time that you'd be somebody that
you weren't working just to survive. Beat. Man,
you better get yourself a castrato for this.
Paul Williams as Swan. I want you to stop terrorizing
the Paradise and rewrite your cantata. And the
Phantom. Well, stop and try me, or you might
satisfy me. Phantom of the Paradise. There really
is the Phantom. All right. Back to Phantom. Back
to Eric doing, doing diabolical things in his
lair. I mean, one of the things I actually love
about the movie is I feel like it embraces the
camp. It embraces how over the top and ridiculous
it all is. I mean, and maybe that wasn't the
intent at the time, but I feel like it. It is
that way, unlike the musical, which takes itself
so seriously, that there was something I enjoyed
about the movie. And in that kind of vein of
things, I thought it was great. It's heightened
stakes from the very beginning. I mean, the notes
that the Phantom leaves regarding Carlotta and
Christine and how he's going to make sure that
Carlotta doesn't sing and it's going to be Christine
doing the role. It's all just so much from the
very beginning. I loved it. I think Lon Chaney
definitely understands the role, understands
the assignment. Of course, he's heartbreakingly
poignant in so much of it. But also when the
moment comes for him to be a little dastardly,
he knows how to do that. He knows how to put
his hand through the door. He does a lot of great
hand acting in this movie, too. He flicks the
letter on the desk. He knows when to dial it
up, dial up the physicality and the hamminess.
It's pretty good. During the unmasking, if you
will, I couldn't help but think about Norma Desmond's
classic line in Sunset Boulevard where she said,
we didn't need dialogue, we had faces. It's so
perfect for the silent era, and especially this
movie. You don't need any dialogue in this. You
don't need music in it. You get everything that
Lon Chaney is doing and what he's... Doing with
his face. And it's perfect. Another Sunset Boulevard.
Sorry, Matt. I just want to drop in the Sunset
Boulevard connection to this movie. So in The
Phantom's Lair, he lays Christine on this bed
that's shaped like a boat. That exact bed set
dressing is used in Sunset Boulevard. I didn't
know that. Yeah. Wow. And Angeloid Webber also
did the musical Sunset Boulevard. And. Buster
Keaton's in Sunset Boulevard. The movie. So bring
it all around. It's so good. Sunset Boulevard.
God, we could do a whole episode on that too.
Anyway. Love that movie. There's also the line
in Sunset Boulevard where Norma Desmond said
the pictures, it was the pictures that got small,
you know? And I feel like that also relates to
Phantom of the Opera. Like this is a huge movie.
And like, I just feel like, you know, then talkies
came about and, you know, of course there were
epic movies made after that. But like, I think
just like the stature of Phantom of the Opera
and some of these silent epics, maybe Hollywood
never got back to that point, you know? I am
big. It's the pictures that got small. Yeah,
exactly. Spoiler alert. I really love this movie.
It's really like I was blown away watching it
this time because like I said before, it had
been like more than 20 years since I had seen
it. And it definitely does have that camp element.
I think Chaney, you know, he does bring the camp,
but he also brings the pathos. To me, this is
kind of like a foundational horror movie for
American cinema, in my opinion. There were American
horror movies before this, but I feel like in
some ways it all goes back to this. The success
of this movie led to all those universal monster
movies like Dracula, Frankenstein, The Mummy,
The Invisible Man, so on and so forth. There's
a direct lineage from this movie to those movies.
And even watching this time, I was like... The
Phantom kind of seems like this could be like
Saw. I hate the Saw movies. I'm not saying that's
a great comparison or a great compliment to Phantom
of the Opera, but the torture chambers that The
Phantom has underneath the Paris Opera House.
or at least attempted murder by drowning and
hanging and dropping chandeliers. This is a slasher
movie, you know? Like 60 years or whatever before
slasher movies really became a popular genre.
So as a horror lover, I have to give this movie
so many props. I feel like it is a prototypical
text for that genre. I think it looks amazing.
Again, the sets and that two -strip Technicolor
process. It just looks amazing. And you can tell
from the very first shot of the movie, which
is bright red and seems to be in a subterranean
layer of some kind. And all you see is shadows
and silhouettes at first. It just feels different.
And I can imagine being an audience member in
1925, I understand why this was so successful.
It must have been scary and over the top, of
course, and really huge, really entertaining.
And I still feel that way about this movie. So,
you know, it has its flaws, which we'll get to
in a minute. But, like, I really love it. I can't
say enough good things about this movie. I'm
glad you brought up the element of how psycho
the Phantom is with his torture chamber. And
that's why that's so campy to me, too. It's like,
is this a Bond villain in a 1920s horror movie?
But the Phantom's mask in this one, I'd love
to hear your guys' thoughts on this. But the
mask is so creepy to me. It feels like a modern
horror mask where they try to be all like baby
-like or cute and animal -like. But his mask
in this, it's got those round features. It's
very baby -like. And it just has that vacant
stare. That is just, oh, it's haunting. I think
sometimes the lack of personality in a mask.
gives the actor more to do with it you know then
then the rest of the face can show off or the
the angle of the body can kind of hone in on
how it looks at one angle versus another angle
where if you put too many features into a mask
that's all it is it's just like one thing or
if you make it a little bit more of a blank slate
then the actor can really play with that in multiple
ways you know i was thinking about this that
when i was watching at the cut the red death
costume during the masquerade is the exact same
one in the musical so i kind of love that the
musical really took the look of this movie as
kind of an homage for what they were going for
in the musical it was a great callback to the
movie is what they did with that costume yeah
i love that costume it's just so epic and he's
the best dressed person in that building that
whole scene looks incredible i love that uh that
ball sequence And with the mask, it does look
baby -like. I think you can see the eyes moving
just barely within the eye holes or whatever.
And maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I
just feel like that... The mask, you can read
anything into it because it's so minimalistic.
And I think you read, or at least I read, a lot
of pain into it. And the Phantom just wants to
be loved. That's basically what the character
is. And he obviously expresses that in the most
demented ways possible. But again, I think...
Chaney and that mask do a good job of conveying
that pain and that loneliness you know in a very
I'm looking at it I'm looking at it right now
and it's yeah very kind of baby like in porcelain
in a way yeah yeah I'm just gonna dive in I'm
just gonna pull in a theme here too because I
think we can wrap that up into our like our our
good stuff too if you have any themes you want
to shout out with this movie but this goes back
to David J. Scull he's a horror writer author
movie reviewer and in his text the monster show
he argues that the phantom of the opera is indicative
of returning veterans from world war one in the
1920s where you had so many survivors and because
of advancements in modern medicine they were
surviving despite facial disfigurements and and
limb disfigurements so a lot of people in society
were wearing masks of porcelain to hide their
their faces so skull ties the phantom's appearance
and the theme of painful loneliness and being
the outcast to returning vets i think there's
something to that and then just to tie this back
into freaks matt we just watched it's that same
theme of the disfigured among us to for lack
of a better term the disabled among us and how
society pushes them to the margins and that can
cause a lot of pain in in those communities i
mean one of the best lines in the movie i wrote
down if i am the phantom it is because man's
hatred has made me so you know what are we doing
to our marginalized communities if we continue
to villainize them so much you know what does
that do after a while yeah there's a psychological
element here that adds to the horror and adds
to maybe the realness of where the character
comes from. Yeah, definitely. I think Chaney's
performance brings that element out. I think
in lesser hands, it would just be a very one
-note psychological killer down in the basement.
But I think Chaney does a lot of heavy lifting
to bring out that pathos. Well, I would maybe
bring up a theme that could also act as a segue
to a criticism of the movie if we want to move
into some of the bad stuff about the film. But,
you know, I think it's kind of about the lengths
that you'll go to to achieve stardom, to like
become a great artist. We definitely see that
with Christine, I think. My criticism of the
movie is that that could be fleshed out a lot
more. That definitely is fleshed out more in
the novel, as well as in some of the initial
treatments of this film that were then left on
the cutting room floor. But Christine, she has
a backstory where her dad was a musician who
died at an early age, but supposedly told her
about the angel of music who would come to her
and teach her how to be this great singer. So
it makes a little bit more sense that... she
would believe that the Phantom is like this benevolent
figure and she would kind of just eagerly go
along with him, you know? That was cut from the
film and it's like kind of hard to buy that she
would just like... He kind of abducts her, but
she very willingly goes along with him, you know?
And I think if some of that stuff was retained,
then the character of Christine would be a lot
more dynamic, a lot more relatable and empathetic.
But I still do think that theme is there, of
like, she wants to be this great singer, and
she will do anything it takes to achieve that.
You know, if I can bring in Phantom of the Paradise
again, that theme is conveyed a lot more in that
movie. But it's here, and I think... You know,
we see that a little bit with the Phantom too.
Like we don't necessarily, he's not like an artist
or anything, but he obviously goes to extreme
lengths to like get the woman he loves to like
very, you know, psychotic degree. So, so just
that theme of like the extreme lengths that humans
will go to, to achieve their dreams and sort
of like, obviously negative, like very distorted
and grotesque fashion is definitely in this movie.
For sure. And I think, you know, you watch it
and you're like, oh, God, the story is so dated.
Oh, it's kind of, like, cringe -worthy. But,
I mean, it's not like it's made in 2025, you
know. And we can look at it with a very different
angle for the time and how you, you know, think
about maybe someone luring someone, you know.
I don't know. I've not read the book, so I can't
necessarily compare one to the other or, like,
how it's fleshed out. But it's fascinating to
kind of hear that angle of Christine and the
backstory that is kind of needed. yeah i wish
it had been in the movie that definitely would
have added a much deeper element i think that's
my main criticism of the film is well it's a
criticism in just like it's a dated element you
know i can i critique society a hundred years
ago sure but like that well what what weight
does that hold i guess my point is the relationship
and how the men treat Christine is just very
paternal and very, like, I'm the protector. And
her and Raul's relationship, their characters
are very one note. You know, he's the man, the
suave, you know, swashbuckler. And she's the
ingenue. And they're playing their archetypes.
They are characterizations we see even today.
But they're just so simple in this movie. That
Matt, to your point, it's like, yeah, why does
she, why, why does Christine go the length she
goes to, to be abducted? But then Christine makes
me laugh in this movie so much because she does
these things and then regrets them, but then
goes back and does it again. Seemingly. It's
like, she's got a little bit of like the input,
the perverse when she wants to like pull the
phantom's mask. And you see that he's like, don't,
do anything you want, but do not touch my mask.
And then she touches his mask. It's like the
first thing she does in his lair. It's like,
yeah, probably not a good idea. And it breaks
his heart. And this isn't a criticism anymore.
I'm just like going on about that scene and kind
of how, how campy that is. And yeah, she, she
has, it's a, actually maybe it's an ironically
complicated relationship she has with the phantom.
Cause it's like, will she, won't she? I don't
know, Christine, what, what is going through
your mind right now? It's impossible to know
in this movie. And like, I feel like that's also
true of the, the Persian character who is, that's
how he's referred in some of the titles. And
like, you know, he, I mean, again, like there
was an earlier version of the film where like,
it goes more into the backstory where like Eric,
the phantom was in. I think it just says Persia,
which I guess would have been Iran at the time,
but it doesn't really go into too much detail
about that. Devil's Island? In the actual film,
I think it says Devil's Island, but in an earlier
treatment of the film, it goes into more of the
backstory of how Eric got disfigured in Persia,
and that's how he knew the Persian character.
But then in the finished version of the film,
that character is kind of just a member of the
French secret police, but he's still referred
to as the Persian, I'm fairly certain. So it's
like, who is this character? Why is there this
kind of weird cultural exoticism? That's another
flaw of the movie, for sure, where that character
just kind of seems... there to push the story
along to like awkwardly provide exposition you
know he's a bit of a red herring at first i think
i think the movie wants us to think oh he's the
phantom and but he's just standing around like
uh i just happen to be darker skinned and you're
all looking at me like like i did something wrong
right and if that had been intentional that might
have been interesting but in the in the finished
version of the film it's like the what what is
going on here you know nothing seems intentional
about this Right, right. So yeah, story -wise,
there are some flaws here. That would be the
bulk of my bad category for this movie. Yeah.
You wouldn't set a story like this in 2025. That
would be my point. But when you kind of turn
that off, and maybe focus on the psychological
element that we've been talking about, I think
it works. I've never been a fan of this story.
I actually really like the movie. But the story
itself is not one that I, like, clamor over.
And maybe it's because I'm just so used to the
musical that I don't necessarily care for. That
it's like, oh, it's, you know. But I want to
watch the movie again. I actually would love
to buy the Kino Lorber version of this and see
these different, you know, cuts and hear some
of the audio from it. Just to hear what it'd
be like. But I enjoyed the movie. Like, I'd give
it, I think I gave it four out of five on Letterboxd
if I haven't written that already. But Lon Chaney's
great. You know, like I think it's a great exercise
in silent film acting. And I love looking at
the silent era and what does that mean for film
and thinking about archiving these types of movies
and how do they stand the test of time? And I
think they do. And especially this one, it's
a good, it's thinking about the Paris opera house.
Yeah. It's, it's just a, it's a great, a great
piece of its element in time. I don't know. Yeah.
The moment. in this movie that made me fall in
love with it. Years ago, I was watching it in
bed on my phone. Again, I just found it on YouTube
and I was like, it's about time I watch Phantom.
But the moment I fell in love with it was on
the scene on the top of the roof, on the top
of the opera house. It's after the masquerade
ball and Christine is with Raul and she's saying,
and she's going behind the Phantom's back. He
said, I will release you as long as you never
see Raul again. Well, of course, Christine does
exactly what she's told not to do. And she's
talking to Raul about getting me out of here.
And unbeknownst to them, the phantom is above
them eavesdropping. And he's in the thralls of
pain and he's weeping. And he's like crying out
into the night, but silently because Christine's
below. And I was just like, this is one of those
heartbreaking things I've ever seen in film.
I love that scene. Then I ended up loving the
movie. So, yeah, silent film acting. Lon Chaney
really, like, he just had this magic that he
brings to the screen. Yeah. Well, feel free to
add anything else, you guys. But I think we can
move on to our ratings, our final ratings. Matt,
do you want to take us away? Yeah, for sure.
So we have four ratings here on Camp Kaiju as
always. Our highest rating is it's a timeless
classic. It definitely stands the test of time.
Our second rating, there may be some antiquated
moments, but overall it's great. It stands the
test of time. Our third rating, it may be historically
significant or just fun, but it does not stand
the test of time. And our lowest rating, it is
not worth revisiting. It definitely does not
stand the test of time. I'll go first. Just was
like, I'll get me out of the way. I think going
into this, I was thinking, you know, look, there
are antiquated moments. It can't be helped. The
movie's a century old. However, I just think
this is one of those moments where the legacy
of this film is so overwhelmingly impactful.
In addition to the, I think the... The moments
with Lon Chaney, especially in The Phantom, I
think are very well directed. Not just his acting,
which stands the test of time, but I think the
way he's shot and the way he's lit. I think the
chase through Paris is still really riveting.
And then the final moment before The Phantom
dies, he gets thrown in the river by the mob.
He has something in his hand and he pretends
like it's going to be something wicked again.
And it turns out to be nothing. It's just all
a big joke. So the Phantom has a sense of humor
going out, which I just, I just love this character
who's diabolical yet darkly humorous at the same
time. So I think all of it still stands the test
of time. I think it's a classic and for good
reason. I would agree. Like it's, there's antiquated
moments. Sure. And it's storytelling, but at
the same time, Like, it's so well done, and Lon's
so great, as we've talked about. The production
values are out of this world. And you see how
it's kind of permeated pop culture for the last
100 years, and how we still go back to it, and
how those images are kind of forever lasting.
And to think about the film history behind it,
the different cuts of it, you know, if you go
and study it all like we've been talking about,
I think that's all fascinating. And you learn
about who Lon Chaney was, coming from deaf parents.
All these different layers add to why it's impactful
and adds another layer to it. And yeah, it's
kind of fun. Coming from the musical end that
I've talked about and to see the connections
between the two or how the musical takes from
this, pays homage to this film, is rewarding.
So yeah, Times Classic, Sans Test Time. Sure,
there's some storytelling elements. Of course,
it's 100 years old. Times were different. Yeah,
totally agree with both of you. I'm happy to
hear that we're all going to say it's a timeless
classic and definitely stand the test of time
because I definitely feel that way. Yep, again,
certain things don't date very well, but I think
that's more than made up for by just the spell
that this movie casts, the spell that Lon Chaney
casts. And I think even if the silent style of
movie performances can be a little bit... over
the top. Sometimes there's also just like this
sense of movement and expressiveness that like,
you don't really see in performances anymore.
And like, you know, I would gladly give away
some of that realism for like the dynamic sort
of energy that the performances in this movie
have certainly from Chaney, but I think we also
see it in some of the other actors as well. Maybe
not Raul, but some of the other characters for
sure. So, yeah, I mean, this again, this to me
is kind of like a foundational text of American
horror cinema and just a really magnificent movie
in its own right. Well said. Thank you. Thank
you all for listening. Thank you, Paul, for being
here and joining us. Thanks for having me. It
was great. Thank you, Paul. We definitely want
to give you some time here to plug anything that
you want to share with our listeners. Okay, you
can find me on social media at Paul's Movie Trip.
You can search Paul's Trip to the Movies on YouTube,
on Patreon. You can go to my website, paulstriptothemovies
.com. I have interviews right now with the cast
of Kiss of the Spider Woman, the cast of Rough
Man with Channing Tatum and Kirsten Dunst. Some
Apple shows coming up that I've done interviews
for that will be coming out soon. So good things
coming ahead. Yeah. Amazing. You're always welcome
back. I would love to be back. We'd love to hear,
I don't know, if you have any films you'd love
to, you think would be good for this show. Maybe
some Stephen King. Sure. Absolutely. Sign me
up. Love that. Love me some Halloween. Let me
some scream. That's right. We've talked about
John Carpenter. I just watched Ghosts of Mars
last week, which is amazing. Like, I kind of
hate vampires, the movie that he made right before
that. But Ghosts of Mars is kind of stupid, but
like so stylish, so fun. The cast is amazing.
And yeah, so love that movie. Love John Carpenter.
Happy to hear that you like him as well. Yeah,
I actually have that's a blind spot for me. And
his work is that one. I have not seen it. Highly
recommended. Pam Greer, Ice Cube, Natasha Hensbridge,
Jason Statham. Amazing cast in that movie. My
brain just exploded. Thanks for hanging out,
friends. Please rate and review Camp Kaiju wherever
you listen. You can also share this podcast with
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Please check out our website, CampKaijuPodcast
.com, for more information. Camp Kaiju is recorded
in Minneapolis, St. Paul, with me in his mailbox
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in the show notes. Well, we should have lived
happily ever after, like they do in the movies.
But this was different. Because this is a Hollywood
story about the people who make the movies. The
little ones that you never hear of, like Betty
and me. The great ones, like Cecil B. DeMille.
All those who knew Norma Desmond. A strange woman
who left her mark on all of us. Who crossed her
path. Has it ever occurred to you that I may
have a life of my own? That there may be some
girl that I'm crazy about? Who? Some car hop
or a dress extra? What I'm trying to say is that
I'm all wrong for you. You want a Valentino,
somebody with polo ponies, a big shot. What you're
trying to say is you don't want me to love you.
Say it. Say it. Gloria Swanson, one of the great
personalities of this generation in a role that
comes to an actress once in a lifetime. Rising
to the heights, William Holden creates a startling
portrayal. And a new star is born in Sunset Boulevard,
Miss Nancy Olsen. Joe, where are you? What's
this all about? Why don't you come out and see
for yourself? The address is 10086 Sunset Boulevard.
Yes, Lon Chaney was all of these. The Hunchback
of Notre Dame, The Miracle Man, The Phantom of
the Opera. The world, fascinated and thrilled,
called him the man of a thousand faces. But what
was the secret Lon Chaney hid behind his thousand
faces? What was the mystery in his life? Now,
for the first time, the true story, torn from
his heart, comes to the screen. Starring James
Cagney, magnificent as the fabulous Lon Chaney,
master of the grotesque, the weird, the strange.
and Academy Award -winning Dorothy Malone and
lovely Jane Greer as the two women who made his
life more astounding, more touching than any
of his unforgettable roles. I'm going to see
you every week. Every week. I promise you. You
had me fired. Damn you! Damn you! Damn you! Who
are you? I'm from the collection agency. I've
come to collect my wife. There's some kind of
cool stuff that I thought was interesting about
the making of the movie, like how Lon Chaney,
you know, created his own makeup. And then he
had one of the cameramen like come into his,
what's the word, dressing room or whatever, trailer,
whatever it would be. And like surprised the
cameraman. Like it was the first time anybody
saw it. And the cameraman like screamed and like
tumbled backwards over a piece of furniture or
something. And was like, Lon, what are you doing?
What the hell? I love that story. That's great.
But yeah, I mean like just little stories like
that. That's all I would add to it. Yeah. And
Mary Philbin, when she pulled the mask off, that
was the first time she had seen his face. Which
is just like you hear stories about that today.
And it's just fun to know that, no, even back
then, to get the. The true raw reaction. They
saved it for in camera. Yeah. It's awesome. I
love the way that scene is shot after she pulls
off the mask. The camera is looking at Lon Chaney
from up or it's like angled up and it just like
really accentuates his height. And then there's
a shot of him from behind and it's all done so
dynamically to. To make him look even more monstrous.
And she's cowering on the floor. So there's like
a great blocking. Of height. And power. And then
he's like floating down. Like the way the camera.
Like pulls back. As he's coming down the stairs.
I just got a sense of like floating skull. Just
like floating. Image of death. Which I think.
The Phantom is in this movie. He is death. and
embodied and it's just so freaking cool it is
yeah absolutely it's it's visually like a really
i don't maybe not experimental but like i think
at this time in the mid -20s they were like starting
to play around a little bit more with like strange
compositions and camera movements and camera
effects Probably in the late teens, they really
started to do that a little bit more. But it's
really impressive in this movie. I think there's
another shot where the Phantom is intentionally
out of focus at first and then gradually becomes
clearer. And that's a really cool experiment
with first -person perspective. There's another
shot where two characters are waiting. They're
hiding around a corner. And all we can see is
a face in the distance coming at the camera.
And I think in that case, it's actually the...
you know, the Persian character. Like it's not
the Phantom in that instance, but it is like
a really amazing shot where like all we see is
like a face in the darkness and the lighting
is immaculate. The camera work is great. Like
you said, it's like visually a really spectacular
movie. Yeah. And then all the extras that Carl
Emily stuffed into this film, not just the audience
goers, but like there's a full opera happening
with a hundred ballerinas on stage. Yeah. I mean,
the movie, even when you adjust it for inflation,
like by today's standards, it's nothing, but
it was close to a million dollars in 1925 money
and it paid off. But like, that's a huge amount
of money for a movie at that time. Yeah, for
sure. And I know like with the success of The
Hunchback of Notre Dame, like, you know, I think
Universal was like pretty confident they would
have a hit on their hands with Lon Chaney appearing
in it again. But like, you know, there's no guarantee
of that, of course. So like, I don't know. It
was risky and I think it paid off. It's an amazing
movie. Yeah. I was so excited to talk about it.
I'm glad you feel the same way. Love it. Yeah.
I'm glad Paul liked it too. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm
glad he could talk about the musical influence
as well. Cause like in pop culture, that is also
a juggernaut of, of a piece. Yeah. Yeah. And
unfortunately it's a blind spot for me. I don't
really like musicals all that much. I like, you
know, some of the older ones with like Gene Kelly
and Fred Astaire and stuff, but like, yeah, I
don't know that one. So I'm glad that he was
here to provide some insight onto that. I just
also wanted to say, I did enjoy as Inspector
Ledoux, The Persian. I do enjoy the performance
of Arthur Edmund Carew. Yeah. I could see why
he was well -liked and respected because his
presence on screen seems very likable to me.
He seems like a hero. I want him to figure out
this case. Yeah. Yeah, he has a lot of magnetism,
a lot of gravity and screen presence, you know?
It's unfortunate his character didn't really
do a lot in this movie, but... Yeah, I like him
a lot as an actor. What did you think about the
comedy in this film? And I'm thinking specifically
about that stagehand who's clearly a comedic
relief character. Yeah. You know, I think it
works okay. It's seemingly... A product of all
the different versions of the film that they
shot and like all the reshoots and the audience
like suggestions, which again, if you're going
to see the Phantom of the Opera and you're like,
oh, there's too much like mystery and gloom.
It's like, what do you do in audience? What do
you think you're getting into? You know, what
a stupid comment. But anyway, I'm getting off
topic. You know, I think the comedy is like out
of place, but it's kind of fun. Like there's
the bit where like there's a trap door in the
stage and like the stage and like. pops up out
of it and then like the other stagehand like
roughs him up and then he like goes through the
trap door that stuff's kind of fun right it does
seem like it's from a different movie but you
know what I'll take it yeah makes it more entertaining
and kind of unpredictable you know yeah because
nothing well I was gonna say nothing about the
phantom is funny but that's not true I think
the phantom does have a pretty dark sense of
humor I mean even just like he revels in in the
chaos he's causing. He's pure chaos. Right. Yeah,
absolutely. You mentioned the bit at the end
where he's pretending that he has something in
his hand and he doesn't. That's pretty funny.
I like that. And just, yeah, all the elaborate
traps and the fact that the pool that the two
guys almost drown in is right underneath the
Phantom's bed chamber or whatever. There's a
hidden panel that opens and then the guys come
up. I thought that was really funny. I also think
it's funny. How, why does it take the mob so
long to go down into the sewers to find the phantom?
I feel like all those secret passageways shouldn't
have been so secret. You know what I mean? Like
who's the sewer worker who like knew about this
for 12 years, but like has been sitting on that
information. Right. Why did it take so long to
figure that out? Yeah. Yeah. Like it kind of
makes sense that the phantom would know. all
the hidden like tunnels and like secret entrances
so well. Cause he's like lived under there for
so long apparently. But yeah, like the climax
doesn't really make a lot of sense. He has a
fully furnished apartment suite down in that
sewer. I want to live there. It looks amazing.
You know, it probably would be a little bit dank
and like humid at times, but it's like well furnished,
you know, that'd be nice. Love that. How do you
get it in there? There's, he's got a boat. And
I think it's cool that he uses the reed to breathe
underwater. Yeah, I love that. As he stalks the
people on the boat. Yeah, that's a really great
scene. And early on, I think actually the opening
is kind of funny because the two owners of the
opera house sell it to two other guys. And then
they're like, oh, by the way, there might be
a dead phantom who haunts the opera house. We
forgot to tell you that. And then the two new
guys who own the opera house go into the... loge
the box or whatever where like the phantom hides
out and they see him and then they leave and
come back and suddenly he's gone that's such
a campy moment and like is the phantom just trying
to like fuck with people what is he doing he's
just like did he like jump over the balcony all
of a sudden i love it it's funny because he's
not a ghost turns out he's a real person so right
he can't defy physics he's just trying to mess
with people yeah uh he's a chaos agent like you
said i know He's so funny. There were a couple
of title cards that made me laugh, and I had
to write them down. In lieu of lines, like these
are campy lines. Feast your eyes, glut your soul
on my accursed ugliness. I remember that one.
Legendary line. Just so imaginative. Loved it.
Yeah, I knew that some of those notes were really
funny. I should have taken a picture or written
them down. Do you have any other ones that you
took a picture of or wrote down? Phantom says
to Christine, at last you have realized your
ambitions and now we shall be married. No, sorry.
That's not the Phantom. That's Raul who says
that to Christine. She has the lead in the song
and then she goes back to her dressing room and
Raul is there and he says, At last you've realized
your ambitions. Now we shall be married. And
I was like, Oh, gender dynamics a hundred years
ago. Yeah. I mean, that stuff dates pretty poorly
for sure. And, but yeah, I mean, if, if you can
understand it as a product of like the time and
place, then it's like, I'm not saying it's funny
to like make light of it, but it's funny just
like how obvious it is, you know? And like what
a different time it was like over the top, obviously.
Yeah. I'm looking at some other quotes now, like
intertitles from the movie, because I know there
were some other ones that I loved. One that made
me laugh as you're looking is Christine, when
she first sees the Phantom, she says, you, you
are the Phantom. And I went to myself on the
couch, no duh, Christine, who did you think just
kidnapped you behind a mirror door and took you
down into the halls of the backstage? Just had
to be pulling my hair out sometimes. Yeah. Apparently
she thinks there's like an actual Phantom of
the Opera and then this like unseen benevolent
figure who's like trying to like lift her up.
You know, it's a little naive on her part, but
a little naive. Oh, this is sorry. I finally
found it. This is. I can't remember if it's like
an intertitle or a note that he gives, but the
Phantom says, no longer like a toad in these
foul cellars will I secrete the venom of hatred,
for you shall bring me love. Oh my God. Love
that line. I should have written it down when
I saw it. I'm glad I finally found it here. Secrete
the venom of hatred. Amazing. Maybe it gets away
with it because you're reading the titles. But
if any actor said those lines on screen, even
at the time, I think you would laugh at that.
Yeah. That makes me think of Singing in the Rain.
Remember when they're trying to record the lines
and the voices? Yeah. And Gene Kelly, you know,
he can't get away with, I love you, I love you,
I love you. Like he could in the silent movie.
Right. There's so much that I love about singing
in the rain and just like the, you know, Jean
Hagen, I think is the actress's name, like her
extremely shrill voice and like the technology
of it, like all that stuff I love in that movie.
Yeah. It just, it captures the spirit of this
truly bygone age at this point. Like Carla Lemley
is gone and she was one of the last surviving.
stars of the era she died 11 years ago now but
i don't think anyone's left and yeah it's just
in history books now and and movies like this
where it's a time capsule as much as art or a
narrative art piece yeah yeah for sure yeah and
like that's why i just like the way it looks
lon cheney's performance it's you know there
will never be another movie like this you know
Yeah, they've tried many, many remakes, which
I haven't seen. Apparently, Robert England was
in a version in the 80s. There was a universal
version in the 60s. Phantom of the Paradise,
of course. The musical, of course. But, you know,
I want to watch them all, but I just don't think
they can truly match that je ne sais quoi of
this first one. Totally, yeah. I'm intrigued
by the Robert Englund one, though. I was not
aware of that. It seems like a product of a Robert
Englund 80s horror movie. Dirty, violent, rough
around the edges. I sometimes love that kind
of thing. Usually I love it. It can go too far
sometimes, but yeah, I'm intrigued. Did Hammer
make a Phantom? Yeah, the Phantom of the Opera,
1962. Okay, maybe that's what I'm thinking about,
yeah. Terrence Fisher. Okay. I'd watch that one.
I'd be into that one. We got to get some hammer
films on the podcast. Yeah, for sure. They're
kind of hit or miss, I think, but there are some
fantastic ones. Agreed.