It's like Granny says, like the scariest or most
dangerous ones are the ones that are hairy on
the inside, but not on the outside, you know?
We see that in the wedding party scene. Yeah.
And never trust a man whose eyebrows meet in
the middle. Yeah. Good advice for anybody. Yeah.
That unibrow. Sorry to our unibrow listeners.
Hello and welcome to Camp Kaiju Monster Movie
Podcast. We're your hosts, Matt Levine. And Vincent
Hannum. And we are talking about all our favorite
monster movies, the good, the bad, and the downright
campy, and asking if they stand the test of time.
Traditional kaiju, creature features, space invaders,
the supernatural, and everything in between.
All strange beasts welcome here. Camp Kaiju is
sponsored by Zack Linder and the Zack Pack, powered
by Coldwell Banker Realty. your source for real
estate, home rehab, fixing and flipping for investor
clients and residential buyers. Reach out to
the Zach Pack today for real estate services.
Follow the Zach Pack on social media and contact
the Zach Pack for investment opportunities. Link
in the show notes. A young girl feels her soul
awaken to the call of emotions she cannot name.
This is the Twilight World, where half -forgotten
memories of childhood lead into a fantastic realm.
Was it a wolf or a man you killed? When I killed
it, it was a wolf. It turned into a man. Here,
dreams become reality. And our darkest fantasies
come true. The worst kind of wolves are hairy
on the inside. And when they bite you, they'll
drag you with them to hell. Where's my daughter?
Where did you come with my daughter? She ran
away. No! They say the Prince of Darkness is
a gentleman. Gentlemen always keep their promises.
What have you done with my granddaughter? Nothing.
She didn't want it. The Company of Wolves. Where
fairy tales end and nightmares begin. The Company
of Wolves. Vincent, how are you doing tonight?
So good. I unfortunately just killed a mouse
in my house. I say unfortunate because I feel
bad for the little guy. Even though... It is
kind of creepy when you're alone in your basement
in the dark and a mouse scurries across the floor.
So, sorry little guy. You don't want that. I
would feel bad about it too, but they are not
allowed in your house. That makes sense. I've
found too many droppings too many times. Yeah.
We'll pour a little water out for our dearly
departed rodent friend tonight. Yeah. How are
you, Matt? How are you, Naomi? I was just going
to say, welcome to Naomi. We have a guest star
tonight. Oh, yes. Thank you for joining us. Naomi
Osborne, friend of the pod. Welcome back. Sorry
to interrupt. How are you doing tonight? I'm
doing good. It's so nice to talk to you guys
when it's still light outside. Like, I feel like
every time we meet, it's always like in the winter
or after trivia, it's dark out. Like, I don't
know. It's good. Summer is nice. It's feeling
good. Absolutely. The only thing I don't love
about it is that sometimes if I'm trying to watch
a movie at home, like I have a lot of sunlight
that comes into my apartment, which is great.
But like, if it's eight o 'clock, and like, there's
too much light on the screen, I'm like, I'm gonna
have to start a movie and like at 11 o 'clock
tonight, you know? Yeah, you gotta just set the,
you know, set the tone, right? Get it all dialed
in. I feel that for sure. Yeah. The difficulties
of being a movie lover, you know, we have it
rough. Oh, yes. Well, I've watched movies in
all circumstances. This year alone, I've watched
over 350. I just crossed the 350 threshold. So
I'm watching movies in every kind of scenario.
There's no nothing really regimented about it.
That's great. Yeah. A little envious, but I'm
happy to hear that. Tonight, we are talking about
the movie The Company of Wolves by Neil Jordan.
I'm really excited to talk about this one. We'll
wait to get too much into it, but it's a weird
one. It's a little bit on the artsy side, I guess,
compared to some stuff that Camp Kaiju has featured.
Not compared to other stuff, though. So, yeah,
looking forward to it. Absolutely. It is almost
as far away from the tone of robot jocks as...
We could get, which is a fun whiplash. I love,
I love that we can do this on this podcast. We
cover a little bit of everything and as it should
be, we shouldn't put ourselves in cinematic boxes.
This movie challenged me. It's like, like I loved
it, but like I'm because it is maybe a little
unorthodox in, in its storytelling. My challenge
was how do I critique this film? And I'll get
into that, but that's where I'm coming at it
right now. Yeah. Yeah, I was excited to revisit
it. I saw it a few years ago, just randomly on
Tubi. Like, you know, when you're looking on
Tubi and you see the weirdest stuff on there.
So I just saw it randomly and it totally stuck
with me. And I was excited that you guys invited
me to this conversation. So I'm curious to hear
your thoughts on it and share some of my own.
Totally. This is a movie that I've wanted to
see for a long time. And it's pretty close to
what I expected. Yeah, I knew it was going to
be like not totally narrative and would be like
a little bit surreal, have a lot of symbolism
to it. So yeah, it'll be a fun conversation for
sure. Yeah, kind of reminds me of like a couple
of 70s movies that are sort of in that ilk. There's
a movie called Picnic at Hanging Rock. It's an
Australian, you know, kind of touches on some
of the same themes. And then there's a Czech
film called Valerie and Her Week of Wonders that
also is kind of in the same vein. Those are both
from the 70s, but I think that. They live in
the same place in my head. Labyrinth, too, to
some degree. Yeah. And I think I feel like the
Company of Wolves influenced Legend as well.
The Ridley Scott movie, like kind of a, you know,
flipping some fairy tale kind of folklore on
its head and like really gorgeous studio bound
like sets and everything. So I sensed some overlap
there as well. I thought about the recent film
Night Bitch with Amy Adams because there's a
scene. Like there's a whole dream sequence. Well,
I mean, the whole movie often is, but she's running
with the pack and the direction, the photography
was very, it reminded me a lot of night bitch.
That's good to hear. I still have not seen that
movie. Yeah. Good. Yeah. I saw it. I liked it.
I love that comparison. Actually. I didn't even
think about that. Well, before we get too much
further, we'll take care of some nuts and bolts
here. Again, just want to thank all of you for
hanging out, friends. Please rate and review
Camp Kaiju wherever you listen to the podcast.
You can also send us listener comments at campkaiju
at gmail .com or on our Instagram page at camp
underscore kaiju. If you would like to be a featured
voice on the show, leave us a voicemail at 612
-470 -2612. telling us about your favorite monster
movies and memories. Also, please check out our
website, campkaijupodcast .com, for more reviews
and special content. Last but not least, also
check out our merchandise at campkaiju .threadless
.com. You can also become a patron at patreon
.com slash campkaiju for discounts, priority
comments, and access to any live events. On that
note, as usual, we want to thank all of our patrons
out there. Jason, BeastDrewel, a .k .a. Chris.
The second Chris, Chris B. Sean, our anonymous
patron, and Peggy. Thank you all so much. We
really appreciate your support. Absolutely. Thank
you, thank you, thank you. And since last time,
I have to talk about, there was a special episode
of Camp Kaiju. A woman named Beth, Beth Redlaw.
She is a master's student at the University of
Indiana, and she reached out to me because she
got the mayor of Bloomington, Indiana to officially
proclaim June 27th, Godzilla Day in the city
of Bloomington. And she partnered with the local
historic cinema, and they screened Godzilla movies
all day, or all week, sorry. Really awesome event.
So that was pretty cool. That was pretty exciting.
If you haven't checked out our... recent episode
on Godzilla Day, you can do so and let us know
what you think of that. Robot Jocks, the aforementioned
mech movie. Yeah, so some cool stuff since last
time. And the Jaws 50th anniversary too. Yeah,
Jaws, right? 50 years. I'm excited about is Jaws
at 50, the definitive story through National
Geographic. So if you have Disney Plus, you can
watch that. But that... It premiered July 10th,
so that should already be out by this episode.
I guess there's new footage, new behind -the
-scenes footage. Steven Spielberg and others
are speaking, so I'm looking forward to that
one. I'll definitely be checking that one out.
That sounds so cool. Another new -ish release
that's in the monster movie realm is 28 Years
Later. Have either of you seen that yet? I haven't.
I have not, but I think I might go this weekend
to finally check it out, yeah. I'll be intrigued
to hear what you think. I saw it and did not
like it very much. I don't know if I'm the biggest
fan of Danny Boyle in the world. He has MTV,
one edit every half a second style that I'm usually
not totally into, but there's some good stuff
about the movie for sure. I won't ruin anything
for you, but I'll be excited to hear what you
think. But you're a big fan of the other two,
right? I like 28 Days Later, but I haven't seen
it in like 15 years, a very long time. And watching
28 Years Later, I was like, if I rewatched the
first one, would I like it as much? I don't know
if I would, but I have not tried that out yet.
And then the second one, 28 Weeks Later, I do
like quite a bit, but that's a different director.
So that might be partially why I like that one
a little bit more. But yeah, the first two are
good from what I remember, but it's been a long
time. All right. Yeah, I just saw them recently
for the first time. I've never been a big zombie
person, just not my, not my genre, but I like
to be a part of buzz. Like I like to be a part
of cultural moments. So I wanted to kind of watch
them and catch up. So I'll see that third one,
but I've been seeing so many mixed opinions on
it. You know, I, I'm very curious to decide for
myself. Absolutely, yeah. And as you'll find
out when you watch the third one, it kind of
sets up a new trilogy of movies as well. So there
will be even more zombie movies on the way. What
are they going to call them? I think it's 28
Years Later Part 2 and then Part 3. So I guess
this is kind of a bridge between two different
trilogies. Kind of strange. 28 decades later.
Yeah, 28 centuries. 28 million seconds later.
28 cuts later. Yeah, right. I mean, a zombie
movie 28 centuries in the future, I would absolutely
watch that. I hope somebody makes that movie.
They would call it like, yeah, 2800 AD. That'd
be like a little twist on the theme. Yeah. Well,
if nobody out there is making that movie, we
have to take it upon ourselves, I think. Our
mission is clear. Yeah. In terms of monster movies
that have come out throughout film history, mid
-July, maybe not surprisingly, is a great time
of the year for horror movies, monster movies,
big budget blockbusters. Naomi, is there anything
on this list of past July monster movies that
jumps out at you? Yeah, there's a couple. I'm
going to shout out Day of the Animals on there.
It's late 70s. Have either of you seen it? I
wanted to for a while. Well, basically, the premise
is that like a psychosis is kind of triggered
from ozone depletion and any animal above the
5000 feet goes berserk. It also has a shirtless
Leslie Nielsen fighting a bear. So, you know,
that that could be a little something to to get
you to watch it. Finally, maybe it's pretty wild.
I'm sold. Yeah, that's all I needed. I have to
watch that movie now. Yeah, I'm such a big fan
of 70s. nature run amok films, eco horror, because
the special effects are so bare bones. They're
using real animals. So you know what? On that
note, I'm going to shout out Orca from the same
year, 1977, about A Killer Whale. We featured
it on the podcast, but I think this movie is
underrated. It's very Shakespearean in its presentation.
And it's about a man, a harpooner, harpoonist?
A harpoon man who goes toe to toe, so to speak,
with a mother, no, a father orca because the
harpoon man killed the mom or the female. And
I say mom because the female was also pregnant.
So daddy orca lost his whole family to this harpoon
man. And it's on from there. Whoa. It's crazy.
That sounds good. Maybe a new Father's Day type
movie watch, you know? Yeah. How far a father
would go. Yes. It's like Death Wish with an orca.
Death Fish, right? You know what I mean? Yeah.
We had so many puns on our episode, Matt, if
you remember. On the orca episode, I do vaguely
remember that, yeah. Yeah. As we often do on
Camp Kaju. But I agree, Orca was better than
I thought it would be. It's a very ridiculous
movie, but it has some merit to it. Charlotte
Rampling is in it. Richard Harris, I think, is
in it. Yeah. Weird movie. I'll have to check
it out. Yeah, not bad. There are quite a few
on this list that I was going to shout out as
well, but we were just talking about zombie movies,
so I think I'll mention Day of the Dead from
1985, obviously by George A. Romero, the third
in that series. Personally, I like it a little
bit more than Dawn of the Dead, Day of the Dead.
It's certainly not subtle, but it's a great not
only zombie movie, but also kind of indictment
of militarism and like the U .S. Army in particular.
Really great movie. Highly recommend that one.
I agree. Yep. So yeah, mid -July, great time
for monster movies. What, however, is coming
up on Camp Kaiju? Well, I definitely just want
to talk about The Shaggy Dog real quick. This
is a special Magic and Monsters episode with
Patrick Kozicki of the Gaze to the D Disney podcast.
And Patrick and I review 1958's The Shaggy Dog,
which was not the first live action Disney film,
but like the first big one that proved a model
that Disney could work with. But it's going to
be the next episode after The Company of Wolves.
And it's a great pairing because the shaggy dog
actually deals with lycanthropy. And when you
view it, you're like, oh, this is actually a
werewolf movie. Well, a lycanthropy movie because
it's a dog. But there's some spooky elements
for sure. So look out for that episode next week.
And then the following week, we'll do a kaiju
film. And Matt, you want to talk a little bit
about that? Yeah, Kaiju Live is coming up. So
Vincent and I are going to select a few classic
kaiju movies that we haven't talked about on
the podcast yet. And yeah, go back to a classic
of the true kaiju genre. We will determine maybe
four episodes and then we'll do some voting.
It could be a Showa era Godzilla, maybe not even
a Godzilla film. There's lots of other kaiju
out there we haven't featured on the show yet.
Can't wait. It's going to be so fun. Back to
some old Kaiju goodies. Not to mention announcing
our Season 5 Part 2 lineup. That'll be coming
soon as well, probably a little bit later this
summer. Always have fun doing those episodes,
so stay tuned for that as well. I can't wait
to see what you guys have in store. I keep flip
-flopping. I have some titles that I've been
holding on to for months, for almost a year.
So I'm a freak like that. But then recently,
I'm like, oh no, I gotta... I want to, I want
to feature this movie now instead of that other
one. It's all programming. It's like, what would
be, if I had to program a movie theater and show
like six monster movies, what would be the ones?
So I'm looking for variety through decades as
well as sub genres. Yeah. Just seeing what works
well with each other. Totally. I go through that
same stuff with my trivia where I just have this
ever growing long list of. Possible themes, you
know, movies that I'd like to feature, ones that
I'd like to connect with the time of year or
something that's going around. But yeah, I think
it's all the same, you know, even though we do
different things, we're still facilitating a
good time, you know? Yeah. Facilitating a good
time. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's fun, but a little
bit daunting sometimes in the best possible way.
Yeah. So you want me to tell you the story of
my life? I'll tell you my story. I'll tell you
all of it. I'm flesh and blood, but not human.
I haven't been human for 200 years. From the
novel by Anne Rice. From Neil Jordan, the director
of The Crying Game. I've come to answer your
prayers. Life has no meaning anymore, does it?
His name is Lestat. What if I could give it back
to you? Pluck out the pain and give you another
life. One you could never imagine. I can see
you lying on a bed of satin. He chose one man.
He gave him infinite power. Eternal life. And
a daughter. Who would be forever young. This
is the only real evil left. And then he took
the light of day. You're a vampire who never
knew what life was until it ran out in a red
gush over your lips. I can't stand this any longer.
You made us what we are, didn't you? God kills
indiscriminately. And so shall we. Do you like
dying? You condemn me to hell! Tom Cruise, Brad
Pitt, Stephen Ray, Antonio Banderas, Kirsten
Dunst, and Christian Slater. Interview with the
vampire. What do you see? The howling. Somebody
in the city. In this human jungle, it begins.
He's right there. What do you see? What's there?
What do you see, Karen? What's there? Somewhere
in these woods, in this primal, sensuous, secret
place, lies an experience too terrifying for
words. is watch and wait. Tonight I'm going to
show you something to make you believe. The Howling
TriStar Pictures announces the collaboration
of three extraordinary talents. Jim Henson, creator
of The Muppets and Dark Crystal. Where you going
with a head like that? George Lucas, creator
of the Star Wars saga. the most innovative forces
in modern entertainment david bowie together
they will take you into a dazzling world of fantasy
and adventure there's nothing to be afraid of
a world where anything seems possible and nothing
is what it seems The world of Labyrinth. The
director and co -writer of The Company of Wolves
is the Irish artist Neil Jordan. This was his
second movie after his feature debut, which is
called Angel. He directed a lot of movies throughout
his career. He's still going strong. He directed
films like Mona Lisa, The Crying Game, Interview
with a Vampire, The End of the Affair. Breakfast
on Pluto, many others. Little hit or miss sometimes,
maybe, in my opinion, but he definitely has some
great stuff. In terms of general themes in his
films, they often focus on sexuality and social
or political pressures. Since he's Irish, in
his movies, that sometimes deals with the troubles
of Northern Ireland and issues of independence
and colonialism and things of that nature. And
some of that, maybe not the political stuff,
but certainly the theme of sexuality, plays a
major role in The Company of Wolves. I thought
it was kind of interesting. He started off writing
children's fantasy series for Irish TV called
Wanderly Wagon. And I just thought that might've
had some kind of influence on the Company of
Wolves as well, which is not a kid's movie, but
it has some like fairytale elements to it. I
wonder if there's any like themes of transformation
in that, you know, I've only seen Interview with
the Vampire and that's definitely a common theme
in that. I'll have to check out some of his other
films though. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Matt. No.
Well, I was going to say, I have also only seen
Interview with the Vampire on that list, which
is definitely about sexuality, but it's so campy.
And I mean that as a compliment. I think it's
a stylistic choice for that film to be as over
the top as it is sometimes. Maybe, maybe not.
I've read mixed reviews, but I like that movie
a lot personally. But it's very different in
its presentation from The Company of Wolves,
which I found very few moments of humor. And
camp. I think this movie takes itself very seriously,
which is a good thing, I think. So yeah, I'd
like to see some other Neil Jordan examples.
Yeah, Interview with a Vampire is a very fun
movie for sure. I feel like maybe the literary
source by Anne Rice might lead to some of that
camp value. Because you're right, the tone is
totally different from The Company of Wolves,
for better or worse. But yeah, Breakfast on Pluto
with Cillian Murphy is really good. The End of
the Affair with Julianne Moore is great. Yeah,
overall, a director to check out, for sure. Yeah.
Perhaps the second major creative influence on
The Company of Wolves is the co -writer, Angela
Carter. She also wrote the short stories on which
the film is based, certainly The Company of Wolves,
the eponymous short story, but also a couple
of her other short stories, The Werewolf and
Wolf Alice, all of which were featured in The
Bloody Chamber, an anthology of short stories
that she wrote. Angela Carter worked with Jordan
on the screenplay of The Company of Wolves. She
said that she really enjoyed the filmmaking process.
This was kind of her first screenwriting experience,
although she did do a radio adaptation of The
Company of Wolves before this. She's an English
writer, very well known for her feminist, magical,
realist works. Before writing The Bloody Chamber,
Angela Carter translated the works of Charles
Perrault, who wrote the original Little Red Riding
Hood along with many other fairy tales. And,
you know, kind of like Neil Jordan's early TV
work, I wonder if Angela Carter's work translating
those fairy tales presumably led to some of the
themes in this movie as well. We'll talk a little
bit more about Angela Carter later on tonight,
but just a few more names I want to mention.
We have cinematographer Brian Loftus, who did
some of the special photographic effects for
2001 A Space Odyssey. Wanted to call him out
because I think The Company of Wolves is absolutely
gorgeous and I love his work in this movie. I
think the music is really good as well. George
Fenton did the musical score. And then finally,
we have production design by Anton Furst, who
did such good work on The Company of Wolves.
Stanley Kubrick wanted to hire him for Full Metal
Jacket. And then shortly after that, Furst also
did the great Oscar -winning production design
for Tim Burton's Batman in 1989. very cool i
didn't know any of that that's super interesting
yeah that makes so much sense because the production
design of the company of wolves was the first
thing that stood out to me as soon as they especially
when they as soon as they get into the forest
i'm like okay show's over folks look at this
thing look at this it's just if if film is a
visual media this this is pure artwork absolutely
yeah totally i think it's super important too
to kind of underscores some of the themes. It
immediately sets you up for being in a different
world of kind of like dream logic and all these
different things. I like that about it so much.
It's really beautiful. Yeah. And especially on
a small budget, we'll talk about that in a little
bit here, but all of them did just incredible,
incredible work on this movie. But now we can
talk about the cast a little bit. Vincent, do
you want to start us off? Sure. We have our main
character, Rosaline, played by Sarah Patterson.
She was 13 years old when the movie was made.
The production had to make a special arrangement
with her school to make her available for shooting.
Yep, working with child actors, so it goes. Patterson
had shown up to auditions to support a friend,
ironically, not to audition herself. Neil Jordan
had initially intended to get someone older for
the role, but stated they couldn't overlook Patterson's
talent. As a result, he rewrote some scenes to
tone down their sexual content. That's an interesting
note that I clocked in the film. Continuing,
after The Company of Wolves, Sarah Patterson
appeared in a few more films, but largely retired
from acting. You know who I thought she looked
like? I need to look up the actress's name. But
are you fans of 30 Rock? Yeah. You remember Jack's
girlfriend with the bird bones? Yeah. Hollow
bones. Yeah. Yes. Hollow bones. I forget her
name, but I see her in all kinds of things. Yeah.
Yeah. I think she's great. And I don't know,
something about Sarah Patterson's face reminded
me of hollow bones woman's face. And I was like,
no, the age isn't going to match up, but, but
they'd be wild if that was her. Yeah. I looked
her up too, to be like, what else, you know,
is she in anything? Like, what did she grow up
into? But yeah. It's kind of a, I guess, just
only seen her in that film. Yeah. Emily Mortimer
is the name of the actor. Yeah. Yeah. I totally
forgot about that character until you just brought
her up right now, but I used to be a huge fan
of 30 Rock, bringing back a lot of memories.
Yeah. But the big name in this cast is the Angela
Lansbury. Is she knighted? I don't know. I don't
think so, but I could be wrong. Let me find out
here. On our Wikipedia, yeah, Dame Angela Lansbury.
My bad. Dame Angela. My apologies, Dame Angela.
Disrespecting. Angela Lansbury lost her head
for this film. She did. A very porcelain head,
indeed. Yeah, she plays the granny, but Lansbury's
prolific, acclaimed stage screen actress whose
career spanned over 80 years. She only died like
three years ago. Neil Jordan was especially inspired
to cast her due to her performance in The Manchurian
Candidate from 1962, which is great. Love that
movie. Yeah. Yeah, I love seeing her in this
movie. I think she just brings so much presence
and like conservative authority that it really
works well. Yeah. Yeah. You needed like a face
you could like. I love the casting game, too.
Like, who can we cast who's known? but who's
not going to overshadow the film. Angela Lansbury.
Yeah. She'll fit this role perfectly. If it was
someone else, I don't know. You might, I don't
know. It might over, she might steal the scene
and you don't want that to happen either. Yeah.
I read kind of a funny interview with Neil Jordan
where he was talking about working with Angela
Lansbury. And, you know, this again was like
a low budget picture, kind of like a quick shooting
schedule. And Lansbury was one of the bigger
names in the cast. And the only time that she
was not super happy about the production circumstances
is the scene where she and Rosalina are in the
church and they dropped a bunch of spiders on
Angela Lansbury, like real live spiders. It's
the only time that she like was very mad and
like did not want to take part in the production.
Otherwise, she was totally. on board i love that
story i probably would not enjoy that either
no nor would i no that was a creepy moment too
yeah icky um oh sorry sorry i'm just gonna continue
david warner plays rosaline's father another
revered english actor whose career spanned about
60 years david warner was the kind of actor you've
probably seen in numerous other movies but not
but might not know his name. He appeared in,
for example, Tom Jones, Straw Dogs, The Omen,
Time Bandits, Tron, Star Trek V, The Final Frontier,
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, 2, The Secret of
the Ooze. Just letting that one rest for a little
bit. Titanic, Avatar, and many others. Yeah,
this movie's also kind of a who's who of British
actors of the time, of the 80s. I recognized
a lot of their faces. yeah immediately when i
saw i was like oh teenage mutant ninja turtles
too like that's the guy it's the scientist like
you know so that just shows my point of view
is but yeah it's kind of cool to see the other
one or to hear the other ones listed out yeah
you just see him all over but you don't you know
he's one of those good actors that you see but
you don't necessarily know his name yeah yeah
terrence stamp plays the devil An uncredited
cameo from the legendary English actor. Oh, that's
right. The devil rides up in a like 1930s coupe
car. Very, very surreal moments. And speaking
of surrealism, although, you know, Andy Warhol,
you know, defies defies any any definitions.
Andy Warhol was initially wanted by Neil Jordan
to play the devil. Warhol was interested, but
he had just been shot in NYC. Oh, my God. I didn't
know that. And he was still recovering, so he
was unable to travel for the production. That
makes sense. Would have been cool to see him
in this movie, though. Yeah. Surprising. I wanted
to see a photo of him and Angela Lansbury, like,
behind the scenes. That would have been cool.
Yeah. Two titans of art. Yes. Steven Ray. As
the young groom who has a gnarly werewolf transformation
scene, this Irish actor also worked with Neil
Jordan on nearly all his movies, including Angel,
The Crying Game, Interview with the Vampire,
Breakfast at Pluto, etc. I don't know how familiar
you guys are with Stephen Ray, but I'm a big
fan of his. He's great in Angel. He has like
a nice presence. He has like a very limited role
in this movie. But again, that werewolf transformation
scene, so disgusting. I love it. Which one is
he? He plays the young bridegroom? Yeah, the
one who leaves the cabin on the wedding night
and then never comes back until five or six years
later, discovers that his wife has married somebody
else and had kids with somebody else, and then
almost immediately turns into a werewolf in maybe
the goriest way possible. Yeah, that's right.
How could I forget? There are lots of like classic
famous werewolf transformation scenes throughout
film history, of course, in American Werewolf
in London, the howling being two good examples
from around the same time period. But even though
the Company of Wolves is not like strictly a
werewolf movie, I do like the transformation
scenes in this film a lot as well. Same too.
They're so grotesque and just like the skin tears,
the stretching, like, you know, it feels just
really memorable and really cool. I love. Love
them. Even if you're not into this, the symbolism,
or if you saw it as a kid, I think it would still
stick with you just because some of those visuals
are so strong. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I agree.
It's not talked about enough. I didn't, you know,
we've talked about personal histories with this
film. I was unaware of this film until really
Matt, you brought it to my attention this past
year, but you know, I'm a fan of werewolf movies
and I feel like I've always heard about the same
ones, especially from the eighties. This one
seems to have missed my radar, but with these
transformations, I'm kind of surprised I've never
come across it in like, you know, werewolf transformation
compilation scenes. Yeah. By the by, but no,
these, these transformations are just as memorable
as I think an American werewolf in London. Yeah,
totally. Totally. Yeah. Different, distinct,
you know, like they have their own flavor. I'll
bet if you're. designing something like that
or whoever's in charge of kind of bringing that
to life you know you want to think about like
what are you going to use that people already
know or assume about a transformation and what
are you going to kind of create out of nothing
and it's really neat in that way I enjoyed watching
it very much yeah the really long animatronic
tongue was amusing as well or tongues I guess
plural I love all that stuff what I love is No
two transformations in this movie are alike.
I think we have at least three. Three that I'm
thinking about. The bridegroom who returns. The
wedding party. Yep. Where they all go turning
into dog werewolves. And then the little red
riding hood scene. Are there others? Yeah. Those
are the three main ones. I feel like maybe there
are a couple other moments where the transformation
takes place off screen, but those are the three
big ones that I remember. Yeah. My favorite,
I'd love to hear your favorites, is the final
one when the wolf comes out of the mouth. Yeah.
You see the snout of the dog actor or the wolf
actor coming out of the prosthetic head of the
mouth. I was like, that is so iconic. I love
that. Amazing. I love that shot. Yeah, me too.
That's just so cool. Like it sticks in your mind
for sure. Yeah. I would say maybe I slightly
prefer the first one just because like, I can't
remember what point in the movie that is, maybe
20 minutes, something like that. But like up
until that point, there's some kind of weird
stuff. You don't know exactly what's happening,
but there's not really any like explicit horror
stuff until that moment. And then this guy is
just ripping off his face. Like my jaw was on
the floor during that scene. Yeah. But they're
all good in their own way. Oh, yeah. Well, let's
talk about the production backstory a little
bit of The Company of Wolves. Okay, so some of
the backstory here. Angela Carter's short story
anthology, The Bloody Chamber, was published
in 1979. She adapted the short story, The Company
of Wolves, into a radio drama in 1980. So then
in 1982, she and Jordan met in Dublin to discuss
expanding the story and several others from The
Bloody Chamber into a feature film. Carter and
Jordan would have daily meetings to discuss the
direction of the script and work on it separately
to compare their work. A third draft of the screenplay
was finished in July of 1983. Carter's screenplay
differs from the final film in a few notable
ways. So it features an additional story told
by the huntsman, a different final tale that
Rosaline tells the wolf, and a scene in which
some animals congregate in a church. So that's
interesting. The ending is also different. Carter's
scripted ending involves Rosaline being swallowed
up by the floor of her bedroom, but the production
didn't have the budget for that. So they just
couldn't make that happen, I guess. That would
have been cool though. Yeah. That seemed very,
sorry, Nightmare on Elm Street almost. Yeah.
Like swallowed up by your surroundings. Yeah.
Totally. The bedroom was so interesting. It really
reminded me of the labyrinth, you know, just
like all of her toys in there and, you know,
kind of like. I don't know. It's just a neat,
really neat little environment. All right. So
getting back to it. So Jordan spent several weeks
preparing hundreds of storyboard drawings to
plan this visual look, which was integral in
creating the heightened sense of reality, in
his words. I'm sorry, in her words. Inspired
by the works of the British painter Samuel Palmer
and French illustrator Gustave Doré. Very cool.
I'd like to look up some of that and see what
it looks like. Aside from a few exterior shots,
much of the film was shot in Shepperton Studios,
England. Christopher Tucker, who also did the
makeup for John Hurt in The Elephant Man, designed
the werewolf transformation animatronics. The
budget was only two million pounds, so creating
the fantastic sets and costumes was a challenge.
The low budget and concerns about cast safety.
also meant that many of the wolves featured in
the film were, in fact, Belgian shepherds whose
fur was specially dyed, which I think we could
all kind of tell. Yeah. Cute, cuddly wolves.
Yeah. A bunch of wolves at a table. Learned from
aristocrats. Right. Yeah, I had a few moments
like that where, well, on the one hand, I do
want to say the portrayal of the wolves, throughout
this movie legitimately frightened me many times,
the way they're shot and lighted with their glowing
eyes. Then there were some scenes, like the dinner
table, where I was like, aw, big fluffy puppies.
Yeah. Who's a good boy? Yeah. I want to be at
that wedding party. That looked fun. Same. It
looked very 80s, too, just like the white and
the pink draping. It felt very of the time, you
know? It's funny when stuff like that happens.
that sneaks in. It usually happens in makeup
or hair or something. And, but yeah, I felt,
felt it in that scene for sure. I was surprised
to hear that they actually collaborated more
than I anticipated on bringing that to life.
You know, I thought it was so cool that a woman
like had her hand in telling this story and it's
super like important, you know, because knowing
the first hands of like the anxieties and awakenings
of growing up specifically about girlhood. is
so important to the film. And that perspective
just shapes every part of it. You know, the experience
of like, realizing your body is being watched
and judged and desired, you know, when you become
a certain age or look a certain way. And I think
women just know all about that. Yeah, Angela
Carter is really fascinating. I tried to do a
little bit of reading. I read some of The Bloody
Chamber before tonight. She's just a fantastic
writer. And there's an element of horror, of
course, but I think I was struck by like the
element of just pathos and sensitivity and empathy.
Some of it's like a little bit extreme. There
certainly are a lot of sexual themes in The Bloody
Chamber in her book. But yeah, really incredible
writer. And she and Neil Jordan got along really
well and he wanted to work with her again. And
then she died pretty young at like 47 years old
from lung cancer. So they never got the chance
to do that, sadly. Oh, shoot. Yeah, I wonder
if we'll ever see, you know, some of that anthology
come to life. You know, horror is such an anthology
genre that it would be cool to see more of that.
Definitely. And there are so many great women
horror directors right now, like Arkasha Stevenson,
Coralie Fargier, Julia Ducournau, both French
women, and just so many examples. Like, I would
love to see somebody, like, tackle that anthology,
like you said. It'd be awesome. The Company of
Wolves premiered at the Toronto Film Festival
in September 1984. It was released in the UK
later that month, and then in the United States
in April 1985. The American distributor was Canon
Films. That name might ring a bell. They released
a lot of low -budget horror and action movies
in the 1980s. So this was kind of a weird choice
for them to distribute the movie. Their marketing
strategy definitely emphasized the horror elements
of The Company of Wolves, and maybe not so much
the art, surrealism, coming -of -age elements.
The film was mildly successful at the box office,
making almost $6 million on a budget of about
$2 million. Reviews were mostly positive. There
were some mixed reviews, some criticisms of the
violence and the underdeveloped characters, but
mostly pretty solid reviews for this film. Neil
Jordan won Best Director from the London Critics
Circle Film Awards, and the movie has gone on
to gain quite a cult following ever since its
release. Cool. Yeah, I definitely had the vibe
of... you know, thinking of it, that it looked
like an old Hammer film. Like, I even said that
to my partner when I was watching it. It's really
cool. Yeah, for sure, yeah. Yeah, I know the
Hammer films were one kind of inspiration, but
Roger Corman productions were another big one
that Neil Jordan mentioned, which I think is
so cool. I love those Roger Corman movies, the
fantastic sets and costumes and the bright colors
and everything. I think you can see that here
as well. Absolutely. Well, now, friends, it is
time once again for our sponsor break. Camp Kaiju
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Link in the show notes. Vincent, do we have anything
in Minya's mailbox tonight? We do, and we have,
um... We have quite a few. We have one, two,
three, four, five messages from Don. Super fan,
Don. He's written emails. He's commented on Spotify,
on Instagram. And we haven't, Don, I know you're
listening. Thank you. I know we haven't gotten
to your comments yet, but I want to read at least
two of them. So listeners out there, on our Swamp
Thing episode, Don wrote on Spotify, Hey, campers.
Here's a semi -useless, potentially completely
useless bit of trivia. Burton Cummings, lead
singer of The Guess Who, American Woman, Laughing,
Undone, Share the Land, etc., etc., is an avid
DC Comics collector. He has stated, if memory
serves correct, that Swamp Thing is his favorite,
or at least one of his favorites. No word on
how he felt about the movie. A Bernie Wrightson
fan, then. The artist who did the comics. You're
a big fan, Naomi, right? I am. Yeah. I have two
of his prints in my house and one of them is
signed. He does beautiful line work, very expressive,
very intricate. My partner and I have a very
large art collection and that's probably the
cream of our collection are those two pieces.
So yeah, big fan. That's cool. Yeah. I have to
admit, comic book art is like a big blind spot
for me. It's something I've always wanted to
get more into, but haven't really checked it
out yet. So I might need to get some more recommendations
from you at some point. Cool. Well, I need to
get some Swamp Thing in my comic book collection
because I was always so focused on traditional
superheroes that I'm sure I just overlook Swamp
Thing, which is a shame on me. Okay. One more
comment from Don. in regards to our episode on
The Island of Dr. Moreau. Great show, fellas.
I did not realize how convoluted the backstory
was on this film. You mentioned your age when
you saw this one, that I was about the same age
as you guys when I saw the 70s version of Dr.
Moreau. That film was interesting. I love a review.
It's like, that movie is interesting. Good acting,
bit over the top at times, pretty campy in the
makeup. of the island's inhabitants hope you
review that one sometime and you saw that one
right vincent the 77 version i did i did it's
it's i don't i don't find it as a compelling
a watch as honestly the other two adaptations
of the story but there is one sequence speaking
of of animals gone wild The final 30 minutes
of that, Moreau, is animals busting loose and
mauling everybody they can find. It's pretty
great. Added to the watch list. Another one.
Yeah. Sorry, Don. I just saw this. He goes on
to continue. I got interested in the movie when
someone gave me a copy of the Marvel Comics adaptation
of the film. I recently bought a copy of the
book, which is likely next on my reading list.
Wow. Nice. We're talking about comic books and
and nature gone wild here tonight, as well as
the company of wolves. I love it. Yeah. All over
the place. Well, thank you, Don. And keep them
coming. We appreciate it. We'll read more next
time. Listeners out there, you do the same. Leave
us a voicemail if you'd rather kind of expand
upon your your comments via the voice. We're
happy to play that. And yeah. And then. We're
going to, we're going to hear from Peter Laurie
here. He's doing all right. So I hear, I don't
know, Matt, you live with the guy, but. Does
not sound like he's doing all right. Yeah. From
my perspective. Yeah. Right. I mean, there's
some weird noises in there sometimes. Have you
talked to him? No. Things are a little strained
right now between us. So, you know, I maybe knock
on the door a couple of times just to make sure
he's still alive, but that's about it. You're
a pal. You're a pal. And roommate. Well, he's
also not the best roommate in the world. I'm
just going to throw that out there. What does
he do? Oh, what doesn't he do? There's the stench
of fish heads all over the place. There are weird
stains all over his room, which no human body
can emit. I mean, just weird mutterings in his
high -pitched German voice. I think he has some
bad nightmares because I hear him tossing and
turning all the time. I can't get a moment's
rest around here, you know? Well, I hope you
figure that out soon. In the meantime, join him
as he watches the 1943 Poverty Row picture known
as Dead Men Walk. And I have not seen this film,
but I would love to. It is about a small town
doctor's twin returning from the grave to seek
vengeance. Wow. I really hope it's as good as
it sounds. There was a remake with Sean Penn
and Susan Sarandon, right? Oh, that was it? Yeah.
That's the same story, I think. Any new twin
movies, though? You know, I was thinking about
that with like Sinners and stuff. Like, I want
to do like a twin marathon. I'm going to throw
that one into the mix. Would you include doppelgangers
in that? Yes, I would include. Yeah. Yeah, I
would include doppelgangers, I think. yeah yeah
what is that one film uh the prestige that's
kind of a doppelganger yeah that's a fascinating
subgenre yeah yeah a lot to be said there i think
yeah there's an older one called dead ringer
not the cronenberg movie but the older one with
betty davis i think where she plays twins that
movie's fantastic love that one i gotta add that
cool lots of good ones out there Welcome to Poverty
Row Studios on the other side of Hollywood. Where
the stars were dimmer and the red carpets dripped
with blood. Together we will watch the best of
the worst. Movies known for their limited budgets,
outlandish concepts, and questionable performances.
But with enough haunted houses, zombies, ape
men, and devil bats to keep you up at night.
This is the Poverty Row Picture Show. I dare
you to sleep through these nightmares. Hello
there. I am Peter Lorre. You may remember me
from such cinematic classics as Quicksand and
My Favorite Brunette. Truly standouts in my long
and varied career. But never did I have the pleasure
of playing in a poverty row horror film. Lugosi,
George Zuko, John Carradine, sure. But did they
ever call Mr. Laurie? Well, they did as a matter
of fact, but alas, I was a busy bee elsewhere.
Little did I know that some 60 years after my
one -way ticket to Terminal Dreamland, I would
be resurrected by two podcasters in Minnesota.
Oh, they would force me to review classic monster
movies in exchange for my eternal soul. But the
gig was too good to pass up. And so, in the end,
here I remain, a willing player in the sums of
Hollywood infamy. And as a bonus, Matthew has
opened up his home to me. He feeds me, irons
my clothes. and generally worship the ground
I float above. But whatever he tells you, I am
an outstanding roommate. Oh, sure, I may be growing
a large, carnivorous lilac that may be our collective
doom, but that is second banana to tonight's
poverty row horror film, Dead Men Walk, about
a doctor who battles his twin brother, now returned
from the grave as a vampire, helping the vampire
twin feast on the innocent. His horror icon,
the one and only Dwight Frye, essentially reprising
his Renfield from a decade prior. But this one
in Dead Man Walk would be among Mr. Frye's last
roles, and he delivers a sensationally sadistic
performance. As a whole, however, it is as if
the director took the title Dead Man Walk too
literally. Most of the cast sleepwalks through
the picture with little visual excitement to
keep your attention. Now again, Dwight Frye.
That man could act and I will pour one out for
him. Oh no, no, no, lilac. It is only leftover
fish head juice that I pour out. I did not know
you were saving that. I, I, I, lilac, lilac,
stay down. Easy girl, easy. No. Jeez. Lilac.
You are... You are crushing my bones. Please,
for the love of Zuko, put me down. You are...
You are too powerful. Listeners, help me. Help.
It is not my time. I must review our next film.
A ditty called The Ape Man. About... Bela Lugosi
turning into a gorilla. Keep off the moors. Stick
to the roads. The best of luck. Thanks for the
ride, sir. You have lovely sheep. Northern England
first. Italy later. Right. Excuse me. What's
that scar on the wall for? Did you hear that?
Listen. It must go to them. It's circling us.
No one brought them here. No one wanted them
here. Sounds far away. Not far enough. Come on.
It's in God's hands now. Stay on the road. Keep
clear of the moors. For now, we'll turn it back
to The Company of Wolves. Let's dive into the
themes of this movie. And I think there are a
lot of them. Thematically, this movie is filled
to the brim. Might be a little bit ambiguous
what exactly it's trying to say at times, but
fascinating, fascinating movie thematically.
Well, to me, it just comes down to, like I said
before, you know, the... the experience of realizing
you're being seen differently by men. And she
kind of goes through that and is very like processing
all of that throughout the film. She's not a
passive character and I like that. And the film
captures that shift and it's quite unsettling.
I think that that's the main thing that sticks
with me thematically. We can't help but also
see that Little Red Riding Hood is kind of a
part of that. And maybe there's like a puberty
metaphor there as well. But yeah, a lot of themes
for sure. Definitely. I would just add to that
that in Angela Carter's original short story,
she definitely makes it clear that the young
women that she writes about are going through
puberty and experiencing these changes with their
bodies and don't initially know how to deal with
it and then kind of... In a similar way to the
protagonist of The Company of Wolves, kind of
have a difficult, potentially liberating, but
also somewhat frightening experience with that.
And I think that comes through in the movie as
well. Totally. It's so interesting that it's
frightening, but these wolves are summoned in
her imagination. You know, the story unfolds
like nesting dolls almost, where, you know, there's
a story and then there's, or there's a dream
and then there's a story in that and then another
story. You know, it's very interesting. Yeah,
it's it's it's I was going to say, oh, and she
becomes a wolf at the end. Well, at the end of,
I guess, her dream sequence where, you know,
where the lines are blurred, but we know we're
within her dream dream. She becomes a wolf and
runs off with the other one, which I found a
very I mean, that whole scene, like the Little
Red Riding Hood scene, I guess I felt challenged
by what. what am i supposed to get out of this
scene because he's he's no pun intended a predator
and he's killed granny and he's and he's threatening
her sexually and yet she runs off with him by
the end she feels sympathy for him i guess like
i guess that was played well where where she
looks out the window she sees the other wolves
of the pack and she feels sorry for for the wolf
and she has a I guess a change of heart in that
way. I don't really have any takes or, you know,
I don't, I haven't come down hard on any one
way. I think that's kind of the point of the
film too. Like to just leave you with a lot of
open -ended questions, like to grapple with,
which is legitimate. And I know it's not everyone's
favorite form of storytelling, but I do appreciate
that and respect that. Sorry, I went off on a
little bit of a tangent there. Getting back to
the themes, you're talking about the, like the
sexual awakening and the puberty from the, from
the girl's point of view, maybe it's because
I am a man. I was noticing that and all the men
in her story and how they all treat her, whether
like there's the amorous boy, which is a great
name for that character. Was laughing so hard
at that in the credits. Oh, I was watching the
movie with subtitles on. It said Amorous Boy,
and I thought, is that like a weird Tubi thing?
Is that really the character's name? I also watched
it with captions on Amazon Prime, and it also
said Amorous Boy, so that's just what he's known
as. Yeah, I love it. He's a new superhero. I
wonder if he uses that to get girls, you know?
I was the Amorous Boy in Company of Wolves. Well,
then they say, in what movie? And then he shows
them, and that's where he's like, okay. is is
she a keeper or not how's she gonna react to
the company of wolves it's a good test yeah but
anyways what i was saying was whether it's the
amorous boy who i i believe is largely innocent
like he's just a young amorous boy who has a
crush on a girl but then you have more again
threatening levels of romantic interest and sexual
interest from older men Regardless, all the men
see her as an object of desire. And I just noted
the different prisms of that desire and her place
as an object in that. When it speaks to kind
of a toxic patriarchy, there's a moment where
that boy is talking, his father's kind of egging
him on a little bit. And I think that that's
pretty yucky. On one hand, we've got the granny
who's kind of like, And using her fear and her
trauma to kind of try to, you know, warn her
essentially to, you know, what men are like.
And then on the other side, we've got the amorous
boy who's being egged on, doesn't even quite
know what to do, you know, following her into
the forest, being super pushy and weird. Yeah,
it was just interesting how women get different
advice than men get in coming of age times, or
at least have historically. Yeah. Totally, yeah.
And I admire the movie for definitely having
those themes and also maybe suggesting that Rosaline's
awareness of herself, of her body, and certainly
how precarious of a position that is, but also
how potentially empowering that is. That's what
Angela Carter said about it. That's what she
considered to be. Part of the theme of the movie,
not just the threat of sexuality, but also the
empowerment of sexuality. She wrote about that
a lot. And I think we see that in the film as
well. So it's kind of flip sides of the same
coin. It's the good and the bad. It's the horror
and possibly the liberation of it, if that's
the right word. And that's kind of why I admire,
one of the reasons I admire this movie. Like
it's not... It's not, like, pigeonholed into
one reading, you know? That's certainly the way
Jordan and Carter intended it. Like, they wanted
it to be sort of, you know, deconstructing fairy
tales but not really having, like, an absolute
clear message. And sometimes I'm not okay with
that, but I think in this case it works really
well because the experience of puberty and coming
of age and sexuality is just such a strange,
disorienting time. I think the movie kind of
tries to include all that in very weird, surreal,
symbolic ways. Totally. And I think it's just
kind of marks that bitter passage of time, you
know, like, you become a certain age, you can't
go back and you sort of reflect on your childhood
and have this fear of what's next, you know,
and I think that's a big part of her becoming
a wolf, you know, is that she is you can't put
the genie back in the bottle, so to speak, you
know, you just keep going forward. And I almost
wonder, though, you talked about fairy tales
in your research with her work. Does she do that
frequently with kind of deconstructing kind of
getting to the heart of a fairy tale and like
what those themes are. Yeah. From, you know,
I wasn't able to read all of these, like, you
know, all the, all of her books in their entirety,
but not only in the bloody chamber, but also
in another book called, I think the black Venus,
I'm pretty sure is another anthology of kind
of fairy tale folklore stories that again, are
kind of flipped on their head. And some of the
sexual themes, the themes of power and desire
certainly come through from what I've read in
that book as well. She has a book -length essay.
Let's see if I can remember the title of it.
It's like the Saadian woman, meaning like the
Marquis de Sade's depiction of women and the
ideology of pornography. Angela Carter wrote
that book as well. I read a little bit of that,
which is fascinating. It was pretty controversial
because it kind of argues that the Marquis de
Sade's seemingly very brutal and misogynistic
depictions of women could be seen. Angela Carter
is making this argument as liberating because
they are able to sort of be amoral. They're not
sort of constricted into these codes of propriety
or being a good person that, you know, in de
Sade's era was seen as like how women should
behave. So I've read a little bit of that book
by Angela Carter, which is fascinating. You know,
from what I read, it kind of, a lot of feminists
like took issue with it. And then some other
feminists were like, this is a brilliant work
of theory and philosophy. So yeah, a difficult
work that I haven't read all of, but really fascinating.
And I think some of those ideas make their way
into The Company of Wolves as well. Yeah. I love
that. This is an education for me in this film
and Angela Carter. I definitely want to check
out some of her work. And I think the word difficult,
like this movie is difficult to critique, I think,
in a traditional way. And it's obviously by design.
I just want to go back. Matt, you had read about
the release and legacy and some of the criticisms
at the time talking about underdeveloped characters.
I guess I could see where those critics are coming
from. But at the same time, A, I think the characters
are developed enough and B, they're developed
for what they need for what this movie is. If
the movie is a take on fairy tales. well, you
know, you're only going to get so much character
development in a fairy tale. They're short by
design. So I don't know about that criticism,
but I, but I think it's good that critics should
be challenged by this film, I guess is my point.
Yeah. And it's her dream too. You know, how,
how well developed is anyone's dream if we're
getting literal, you know? I had the same reaction.
Like, I feel like the characters are archetypes
and symbols, but not real human beings, you know?
Which is, you know, I don't know. Sometimes I
feel like critics, we do this too. We're just
like, sometimes you just like, you feel, you
feel like you have to come up with something
to critique. Even if that critique is like the
characters were underdeveloped. Were they, or
was that the, literally just the art you were
watching? See, I have the opposite problem where
I always have to think of something good. I'll
never just be like, that movie was trash. That
was bad. Like, that's just not me. You know,
I always try to find something that makes it
redeeming, even if it's just the effort of creating
something. But you're not wrong about how most
people kind of approach critiquing and all of
that. You know, I don't like to write reviews
or anything really like that. I consider any
kind of like blogging or writing I do to be more
like contextual than. you know, a vehicle for
my own personal taste or opinion, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. I really admire that. Yeah. And I, you
know, for me, like no movie is perfect and no
movie is worthless. Like almost all of them are
somewhere in the middle, you know? And I think
for me, well, like writing and reading criticism,
I think the joy is like. like what, what, what
still can you take away from it? You know, like
what is the value of this movie, despite it's
great things or it's bad things. Like what is,
what will you remember it for? What will the
world remember it for? I think it's important
to place it in that larger context, whatever
it's flaws might be, you know? I still agree.
And that's really how I approach my trivia too,
is just like, my trivia is not about plot recall.
Like to me, that's boring. I really much prefer
to kind of like make questions that put it into
a bigger context because that's really like ground
zero for appreciating something, for wanting
to see something. But yeah, sorry, a bit of a
tangent there. I love it. We're all about the
tangents, Cam Kaju, all the time. Yeah. I did
want to mention one more theme and like you guys
certainly feel free to mention more as well,
but I really love the theme of just storytelling
in this movie. And that might seem kind of obvious
because we've talked a lot about fairy tales.
We've talked about the kind of Chinese box storytelling
structure of the film and like embedded stories
within stories. So clearly it's about storytelling,
but I think it's powerful in this case because
Angela Carter has a quote about this too, but
like stories are just such a powerful way to
make sense. of the human experience, particularly
if you are going through difficult times. If
you're like, you know, for example, if you're
coming of age, if you're going through puberty
and you don't totally know what's going on with
your body, storytelling or dreaming in this,
in the case of this movie are just like such
powerful ways to try to make sense of that. And
I always really like movies that kind of don't
just tell like one linear story, but maybe have
like diversions and like. tales within tales
or whatever, you know, I always find that really
compelling and fascinating. And I think especially
so in this case. I would say too, just it being
a fairy tale is very like kind of telling of
her transformation of, you know, fairy tales
are enjoyed by children for the most part. They're
taught morals and all these things kind of becomes
this shared cultural knowledge. It's really neat
to kind of see that inserted here. You know,
I think there's a lot of interesting stuff going
on with how it unfolds. And it's really like
all in her psyche, which is also very just cool
and interesting and very neat. Yeah, I'm a big
fan of fairy tales as a genre because of those
universal truths that they expose children to.
And it's like a collective cultural like touchstones.
Like we all know Little Red Riding Hood. which
is a great in to this movie. And I didn't know
that. I mean, and the movie's more than just
Little Red Riding Hood, but the first time she
puts on that red coat. Your mind just goes, yes,
Little Red Riding Hood. My mind was blown. I
was like, oh, this is what we're doing? I love
this. Let's deconstruct something as seemingly
simple as Little Red Riding Hood, which in and
of itself, yeah, you can read themes of puberty
and coming of age. And there's violence in that
story because there's different versions. You
know, I didn't grow up on the version where the
huntsman comes in and kills the wolf or like
pulls granny out of the wolf. She's still alive.
I don't know. You know, but there's different
versions depending on your tolerance for violence.
But wolves themselves as an element of fairy
tales. You know, I'm sure there are others. I
think of Little Red Riding Hood. I also think
of Beauty and the Beast, which isn't quite a
werewolf, but a beastie character anyways. And
I think wolves, as we've talked about, and as
we all know, that werewolves are great symbols
and metaphors for so many different things. Any
facet of change and transformation and isolation
and loneliness and all these things, whatever
you want to put on it. Yeah, especially with
women, too, you know, because of that connection
to the moon and menstruation and all. Yeah. In
this movie, I like that there are different stories,
vignettes, because the wolf is able to be used
as more than one metaphor. What I liked in the
wedding party scene, it was all the aristocrats
who turned into animals and monsters. And I was
like, right. The working class people, the band,
they don't turn into monsters. It's the fat cats
at the table who become fat dogs, I guess. But
yeah, I was like, that's an interesting take.
Because it's usually the downtrodden who are
werewolves and the outcasts. But in this case,
no, it's the 1 % who have the animals inside.
Well, there's something predatory about them,
you know? I love what you said about how they
can... They serve different purposes, the wolves
in this story. That's very interesting. Yeah,
very cool. Yeah. And it's like Granny says, the
scariest or most dangerous ones are the ones
that are hairy on the inside, but not on the
outside. We see that in the wedding party scene.
Yeah. And never trust a man whose eyebrows meet
in the middle. Yeah. Good advice for anybody.
Yeah. That unibrow. Sorry to our unibrow listeners.
Just kidding, of course. I do also, just to follow
up on what you said, Vincent, I really love the
vignette where it's like the she -wolf who climbs
out of the well and then turns back into a young
woman. That's a very short vignette. I think
it might be the shortest story within the movie,
but really powerful. I think that scene makes
it clear that... Not only are wolves only a metaphor
for the danger of men, there's some of that for
sure, but wolves serve many purposes, like you
said. But I think that scene also just has so
much empathy for that character. We don't know
a lot about her, but we know that she is what
she is. She's a lycanthrope, a werewolf, and
she's kind of cast out by that and feels... you
know, shunned, feels kind of lonely, alienated.
And I think a lot of that is conveyed not through
dialogue, but just visually in that sequence.
And I really love that part a lot. You know what
that makes me think of? The depiction of religion
in this film. It's very subtle, but I found it
a positive depiction. Rosalie wears a cross,
and even as the wolf is wearing the cross necklace
and runs off with it. But then you'd mentioned
the she -wolf character. She's found by a priest.
And he says, are you of God or the devil? And
then he stops and says, actually, it doesn't
matter. Come on inside. And I love that. I think
typically in horror films, not typically, but
at least often, I find religion to be treated
less positively. It's like a shadow force. It's
corrupt. Yeah. And I think Rosaline, you know,
the priest reappears in some other sequences
as well. And Rosaline seems to have a lot of
compassion for him, like, because Granny doesn't
seem to like him very much. Granny has strong
opinions about everything. But, you know, I kind
of like that Rosaline's, maybe friendship is
a strong word, but just like simpatico with this
priest shows up in that sequence as well, you
know? Yeah. And he drops a bunch of branches
on Granny, which is funny. Yeah, I love that
part. Well, clearly a lot of symbolism. The werewolves,
again, just represent so many different things
in this movie. And yeah, I think you can pick
apart the themes pretty extensively. And it's
pretty rewarding, in my opinion. Do either of
you have any other themes that you want to talk
about? Sure. I had something about how I thought
it was interesting that there was no male gaze
in the way that you would expect. To see it in
this film, you know, like there's red lips and
silky garments and those kind of things. But
it was really like from her perspective. And
I think that that scene where she climbs up in
the tree and like is putting lipstick on and
kind of, you know, that's for herself. That's
her. And she's not doing it for anybody else.
So I really appreciate that kind of male gaze
being subverted moment because it really is like,
you know, what does it feel like to be looked
at a certain way? when you don't know how to
feel about your own body. And it's just an interesting
little theme in it. I think that maybe theme
isn't the right word, but an interesting layer
that I really enjoyed. Yeah, that's a really
powerful moment. I think is that remind me because
I might be misremembering this, but is that the
same part where the wolves that are transformed
in the wedding party, they're all kind of like
surrounding her and they're like howling at her?
Is that a different part of the movie? It's when
she's being chased by the amorous boy and she
kind of is dodging him and hiding and she seeks,
you know, kind of hit a hiding spot, like up
in the tree, essentially. That's right. Thank
you. I'm just remembering different parts of
the movie, but okay. There's a lot going on.
Weird timelines. Like, yeah. Lots of trees. Although
that reminds me, Neil Jordan said the budget
was so low on this movie, they only had 12 trees
to work with. And they had to like move them
around the set all the time to make it seem like
a really big forest. But it wasn't. They had
almost no props whatsoever. Well, I did notice
and it's not a criticism because again, that's
not a fair criticism. The movie worked within
its means, but I did see like the same path substituted.
like six different times. Yeah. I think that's
fine though. It makes sense. You know, the forest
is a mental space, not a physical one. Absolutely.
It allows us to operate on a symbolic level,
like right from the beginning, you know? So maybe
it was a cool thing that they had those limitations.
It supported, you know, some of the things. Yeah.
Very stage -like too. Cause what do you do in
theater? You're going to use the same set for
six different scenes. Yeah. Yeah, it works for
me. It's still able to achieve such a dreamlike
magical look despite those limitations, or maybe
because of them. Yeah. Which is pretty cool.
Any other themes? I feel like we could talk about
the themes for a long time, but I feel like one
of the pleasures of this movie is just to watch
it for yourself and see what you come away with,
like your reading of these themes, because there's
a lot of flexibility there, I think. Yeah. Yeah,
I got nothing. I mean, anything else, I'll just
wrap up into subsequent discussion here. Okay.
Yeah, same. I think we covered most of the things
that I wanted to talk about, if not all. Yeah.
Cool. And we already talked about the form and
the aesthetic. I have a couple notes here, but
we've already touched on all these things. So
it might be time for our individual breakdowns.
As always, we have the good, the bad, and the
campy here on Camp Kaiju. So let's start with
the good. Maybe I'll just get us, I'll get things
rolling and then turn it over to both of you.
But I mean, for me, And there's so much that
I like about this movie, but the visual style
is just immaculate. And I think even more so
nowadays when it's just hard to think about a
lot of recent movies that like achieve this distinct
magical look, which again is... frightening but
also like wonderful and transportive you know
the film really is able to achieve that again
with a limited budget the the crew really does
an amazing job i love the the kind of like again
the embedded maze -like structure of the plot
which has so many stories within it it's just
a really immersive movie and i could not wait
to see what image would come next and where the
movie would go next so that's the main good thing
for me yeah It's hard to talk that honestly.
I think that what's so fun about it is just all
the ways it could be interpreted. You know, you
think about, you know, is she empowered or is
she, you know, is she predator? Is she prey?
Like, what is she? It's just so interesting and
so rich. But yeah, the visuals and sets and all
of that are just outstanding. There's a lot of
good things about this movie. I didn't find the
acting to be annoying or take me out of the moment.
So I enjoyed that. I love Angela Lansbury in
it and her role in it. And I kind of connected
to her in a way of remembering what it's like
to kind of be cautioned by your mom or your auntie
or your grandma about how you should approach
life, men, situations. And a lot of it is informed
by their own trauma. So you have to sort of take
it knowing that. But yeah, there's a lot of good
things to like about it. I think we've talked
a lot about. them already though that is oh such
a good and i'm and i'm speaking from my perspective
as an ignorant man and and how i could be less
ignorant in those interactions with with my female
friends of the world and i think about how this
movie is immersive matt to steal your word there
And it does keep you guessing. Like, there's
a surprise in every scene, which is really captivating.
The production design does all that work. I was
really, you know, it's not often I actually watch
a horror film where I actually get creeped out.
But I was down by myself in the basement, lights
out. I had my mood lighting on, and I was like,
all right, here we go. And then the dogs show
up, and their eyes are glowing, and they're in
shadow. I was spooked, and I heard noises upstairs.
I went upstairs. I had to make sure my doors
were locked. It was one of those watchings. I
was like, was that a mouse in the corner? I don't
know what's going on. that mouse must have been
scared too man yeah i love the britishness of
it if that makes sense like british folk horror
is such a genre i mean picnic and hanging rock
i've seen which is australian not british i know
but like wicker man and you know yeah movies
from that you know it's very much like that the
witch finder general my god right yeah very britishy
i love british folk horror so yeah Yeah. There's
a real aesthetic to it. The wedding party sequence,
all the, all the transformations, which we mentioned,
but need to be shouted out again. Yeah. It's
a complex film layered. It's a layered film,
which is a credit to the, the smarts behind the
script and the direction and, and all the design
in general. Oh, Oh, a couple of quick, I mean,
Angela Landberry losing. There's another decapitation
in the movie, which with like a huntsman cuts
off the werewolf's head, which is an awesome
moment because the wolf's head falls into a bucket
of milk. And when it pops to the surface, it's
the human head. I was like, man. And milk, as
we film nerds know, is often a metaphor for youth.
So it's like the corruption of youth. It's bloodied
and there's a man's head in it. Amazing shot.
Amazing. Angela Carter, Neil Jordan, messed up.
Brilliant minds. Oh, and I love the, I love the
sequence with the, the dad comes in. They, they've
just like shot the wolf and he has a hand, a
human hand wrapped in the package in the paper.
And he's like, I swear it was a wolf's paw. It
was a four paw. Then he, he unravels a human
hand. It's like, ah, that's sick. And that exact
scene is taken almost verbatim from one of the
Angela Carter stories that I did read, which
is just called The Werewolf. But you would love
that story. I think both of you would love it.
And anybody listening, I think you would love
it too. So check it out. All right. I'll try
to find maybe some links for the show notes.
Yeah. All right. Those are my shout outs. I love
it. Sorry, Naomi, but we do have to talk about
the criticisms if there are any. Yeah. Well,
maybe we'll start with you if that's all right,
just so you can get it over with. If you do have
anything that you don't like about this movie,
what might that be? Well, for me, I didn't really
like the religious element to it. I thought it
was a bit piled on for me and it transported
me from like a fantasy place to a more like real
place. And I just didn't enjoy that. kind of
whiplash a little bit. But it wasn't enough to
really affect me in any way. And I've seen the
film twice, and I didn't remember that from seeing
it the first time. So it's obviously not that
big of a thing for me. But yeah, I would say
that just felt a little piled on for me. I didn't
enjoy it. I think that's fair. What about you,
Vincent? What did you not like about this movie?
Ah, man, it was difficult, actually. But I felt...
Like the creepy dolls in the beginning, like
her toys were creepy. And I think they worked
at being creepy. And I get that they represent
her previous life as a child. But beyond this,
the metaphor and the sheer creep factor, they
didn't really play into the rest of the story.
And I just felt disconnected with like, this
is a wolf story, but you're like really harping
on these dolls. But, like, at the end, I don't
feel like they paid off. And then, I mean, not
to mention, like, the life -size dolls that are,
like, actors in costumes. Again, very creepy.
But I didn't feel like we needed that, if that
makes sense. Yeah. I think that's super fair.
I agree with that. I do think there's some value
in kind of using it as a symbol, like, at the
end as, you know, when wolves are running over
it, loss of innocence, kind of that thing. But
yeah, the beginning, it's especially weird kind
of setting you up with those big toys because
you're like, what is this? Like, you know, it
doesn't really, it's not a thing that really
comes back as you watch the film. So it feels
a bit strange. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with
that. And I think for movies of this kind that
are surreal and maybe kind of episodic in a way,
like, again, there's not really like a clear
narrative that connects everything. I think maybe
they tend to be a little bit hit or miss and
there might be a few individual scenes that aren't
as successful as others. And I would agree that
the scene with the giant toys is one example.
Another example for me is the scene where the
devil, played by Terrence Stamp, pulls up in
the Rolls Royce. I was excited for that moment.
I love Terrence Stamp, and I'm fascinated by
mythology around the devil and Satan, and where
does evil come from, and questions like that.
So I was hoping for a little bit more from that
scene. Essentially, the devil just gives that
boy a skull, and that's pretty much the end of
the scene. He doesn't really have very much dialogue.
The devil doesn't. So I guess maybe I was hoping
for more from that scene. Felt a little bit let
down. But, you know, I mean, if that's like the
biggest criticism I have against the movie, that's
not too bad. Just a few scenes that didn't work
quite as well for me. Yeah, yeah. I agree. But
that's really all I got. I mean, like, again,
anything else I could come up with is just, like,
I don't need to criticize certain things because
the movie knows what it is. It's very confident.
And if it's that confident in its presentation,
well, that's it. I can't criticize a person for
being who they are, and this is what it is. Yeah,
I think the overall power of the movie and the
fact that it achieves what it wants to do so
well, I mean, that for me is kind of the main
takeaway, despite some mild flaws. And Vincent,
you said before that there's not a ton of humor
in the movie. And I would mostly agree with that.
But is there anything campy that we want to call
out here? There's a line that I immediately had
to write down. It's the first maybe werewolf
story. There's a young woman. Oh, with the young
bridegroom. And her new husband, he goes out
presumably to go to the bathroom. He never returns.
But the woman says, oh, because of the next morning.
the townspeople are like, where did he go? What
was he doing? And she says, he was making water
when a man is most defenseless. And I said to
myself, that is true. That is true. Yeah. I mean,
anybody would be right, but it's such a quaint
way to say it to making water. I think I'm going
to use that from now on. I like it. You know,
if you've ever gone camping and you got to go
pee in the woods, which my wife says is such
a man thing, but. You're standing out there.
You are so vulnerable. Pants around your ankles.
You're just like, I hope a wolf doesn't eat me
right now. Especially after watching this movie.
That's a logical concern. Yeah. Naomi, anything
campy that you wanted to call out? I guess maybe
like the dyed dogs was a bit campy. And just
knowing dogs too, and knowing they're having
a great time, like just running around, you know,
they got zoomies like, so that was a little campy.
And I also like, I know this is a big part of
the movie, but the kind of like, you know, the
worst wolves are hairy on the inside line, like
that whole line to me just feels very like, almost
like a teenage girl diary entry trying to be
poetic or something. I don't know. I just felt
like. didn't have the presence that some of the
other parts of the film had. And it was said
multiple times. And so for me, that would be
it. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Love those
dogs. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have a lot of campy
stuff either. I like the opening scene of the
movie. I don't know if this is camp necessarily,
but I like the character of Rosaline's sister
who unfortunately dies pretty early on. But like
when we first see her, she's this like goody
two shoes. Who's like, Oh mommy, you're back
from the grocery store. And then she like calls
Rosalina pest numerous times and like a very
British accent, just like pest, pest, pest, pest.
And like, I think it's supposed to be funny.
And I. I don't know. I just like, you know, we
don't, there's not very much time in the movie
to like be introduced to these characters and
their family dynamic as it exists in the real
world. So I kind of like the heightened, almost
comedic aspect of that. I thought that was done
very well, but maybe a little bit campy too.
Well, upon hindsight, you know, cause like the
sister dies in the dream, right? I guess it's
a little unclear, but yeah, I think so. I mean,
I think from the point we enter that part of
the movie, I think it's all dream stuff pretty
much. Yeah. But I love that her little sister
is having this revenge fantasy dream. It's like,
yeah, well, I'm going to get you in my dream
world. Yeah. Who's the best now? Well, I have
siblings and it's not that crazy, you know. You're
not dreaming about them being attacked by werewolves
or anything? Not anymore, but maybe once upon
a time. Yeah, yeah. Well, awesome. Lots of good,
little bit of bad, tiny bit of campy. But we
have arrived at the point where we give the film
a rating, as always on Camp Kaiju. Our highest
rating is it is a timeless classic. It definitely
stands the test of time. Our second rating, there
may be some antiquated moments, but overall it's
great. It stands the test of time. Number three,
it may be historically significant or just fun,
but it does not stand the test of time. Number
four, it is not worth revisiting. It definitely
does not stand the test of time. Okay. Vincent,
what do you think? Sorry, not to call on you
like we're in class or anything. He just called
on me. I think this movie... It's a timeless
classic. It stands the test of time. I think
it's underrated, at least in my experience. I
think if I'm in a room discussing werewolf movies,
I'm going to talk about this one. I think it
stands the test of time because the themes are
not just everlasting, but these are complex themes
in our own lives. How many of us struggle with
these things all the time, let alone teenagers?
But the way it's presented, it's not simplified.
It's not dumbed down. Like this is a complicated
movie fitting of its complicated messages. And
it's done really well. So I think it stands the
test of time. A beautiful looking film that I
would recommend. Yeah. Awesome. I love it. And
maybe I'll go next and then we can let our guest
star have the final word. Does that sound all
right? Okay. All right. Yeah. For me, same. It's
a timeless classic. Definitely stands the test
of time. I expected to like this movie, but I
didn't know how much I was going to like it.
Yeah. I would just echo everything that Vincent
said about it. Love the mix of like horror, but
also, you know, kind of like surreal, complex
themes really does have a lot to say about the
human experience. I'm kind of just repeating
everything that Vincent said, but yes, for me
too, it is a timeless classic and I can't wait
to watch it again. Nice. Well, I, This will be
a threefer because I also think it is a timeless
classic. It'll stand the test of time, especially
when viewed as a piece of feminist horror. I
think that it really belongs in that category.
It's very underrated. It's interesting. It's
a film that's interested in how girlhood feels,
and it prioritizes that over how a story should
be structured. And I like that a lot. I wouldn't
recommend it to everyone though, but to anybody
that likes a moody layered symbolic horror, I
definitely would. But I think some men could
watch it and be like, not all men, you know,
like I feel like not everybody would get it,
but I absolutely love this film. And I think
that it has a lot of layers that I've seen it
twice. I want to still see it again. So I think
it's a great film. Awesome. I'm so glad we all.
Loved it and gave it the highest rating. I'm
very, very happy about that. Seems like a fitting
end for the first part of season five of Camp
Kaiju. Yeah. More werewolves to come, I'm sure.
I hope so. Maybe my favorite subgenre of monster
movie. You have brought, well, I brought the
wolf man, but you brought the howling too. Yeah.
And the howling. I don't know the howling in
the company of wolves might be neck and neck
for my favorite werewolf or pseudo werewolf movie.
Cause I don't know if that fully encompasses
what the company of wolves is, you know? Right.
That's what makes it so good. Exactly. Yup. Yup.
Yeah. So good. I'm so appreciative of you guys
having me in this conversation. And I learned
a ton about, you know, the backstory of the film,
the motivations. I loved hearing your perspective.
As always, such a pleasure to be on Camp Kaiju.
Thank you. Well, Naomi, we really can't thank
you enough. And it's been so great just getting
to know you as a person and getting to become
friends through trivia as well as the podcast.
So thank you for hanging out with us. And I hope
to see you again soon. I can't speak for Matt.
Maybe Matt doesn't want to. That is untrue. I
absolutely look forward to that as well. And
I'm sure there will be more guest spots in the
future and I'm mightily looking forward to them.
Oh yes. Please let me know. Always a pleasure.
Always a privilege. Thank you very much. All
right. And we'll put links to film friends, movie
trivia in the show notes. So people check out
movie trivia at Indeed. Yes, that would be great.
You know, I. It's very much a passion project.
It's unlike any trivia I've ever been to. Just
so people who have never been know, it's free
to play. It is sponsored by two of Minneapolis'
best repertory theaters, Trilon and The Heights,
so free tickets. And what makes it special is
that I write all the questions alongside a different
guest co -host from the film community. So you
get a showcase of different perspectives, different
film tastes, and it builds a real sense of connection.
Hence the name Film Friends. You know, I think
bonding over movies is a beautiful thing. And
that's what my trivia is all about. So yeah,
come through. First one day of every month, Indeed
Brewery. Awesome. Yeah, make sure you check it
out. I've always enjoyed going. Thank you again,
Naomi. Coming up on Camp Kaiju, we'll have Kai
July, obviously in July, and then coming up part
two of season five. So stay tuned for that. Yeah.
Matt, do you want to stick around a little bit
later and talk about that? Yeah, for sure. Should
I read the outro right now or should we save
that for later as well? We can do that later.
All right. Sounds good. Yeah. Well, thank you,
Naomi. Of course. Thank you guys so much. And
I'm excited to hear the next batch of picks that
you have. And I'd love to be on again. So let
me know. Got it. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Have
a nice day. You too. Bye. Thanks for hanging
out, friends. Please rate and review wherever
you listen. You can also share this podcast with
a friend, subscribe to the website, and send
us listener comments at campkaiju at gmail .com
or on Instagram. Links are in the show notes.
If you would like to be a featured voice on the
show, leave a voicemail at 612 -470 -2612 telling
us about your favorite monster movies and memories.
Please check out our website, campkaijupodcast
.com for more information. Camp Kaiju is recorded
in Minneapolis, St. Paul, with Minya's Mailbox
Music by Ben Cook Feltz. Thanks, friends. And
until next time, stay campy. Camp Kaiju is sponsored
by Zach Linder and the Zach Pack, powered by
Coldwell Banker Realty. your source for real
estate, home rehab, fixing and flipping for investor
clients, and residential buyers. Reach out to
the Zach Pack today for real estate services,
follow the Zach Pack on social media, and contact
the Zach Pack for investment opportunities. Link
in the show notes. Anything? Not a hair, nor
a hide of him. Not a footprint. No. And what's
that, might I ask? I told you I heard the walls
last night. They came and took him and he was
making water. When a man is at his most defenseless.