Hi gang, it's Patrick from Gaze Do The D.
And Vincent from Camp Kaiju Monster Movie Podcast.
We are here with our first ever crossover episode of Magic and Monsters where we are
exploring the wonderful world of creature features.
And you know, just some of the darker films to come out of the House of Mouse.
The ones that make you say, wait, wait, wait, wait, that's a Disney movie?
For today's episode, we are dipping, get it, dipping into the world of who framed Roger
Rabbit.
So put on your Mickey ears, grab a snack, away we go.
To all who come to this happy place, welcome.
Vincent what are we doing here?
What's going on?
What have we gotten ourselves into?
Well, we have started a new podcast, but it's not a new podcast.
Sure, sure, sure.
Magic and Monsters.
So we're here to join forces Gaze Do The D Camp Kaiju.
Love it.
We've partnered on previous episodes, respectively, on our own shows.
True story.
Here we are with one just totally new product.
A new situation, a thing that we're trying out here.
Who's to know what it's going to look like?
Behind the scenes, everybody, we don't even really have like a logo or a theme song yet.
Like we're absolutely, all we know so far is the episode we want to start with.
And that's what we're doing today.
And we're editing it together and figuring out what this is.
So feedback is so welcome after this episode.
We will absolutely need it.
But yeah, like Vincent said, we're throwing our two podcasts together and they're making
a baby podcast and we're going to try to feed it and see how it goes and grows.
Yeah, the plan right now is at least what's our release schedule?
What are we talking about?
Quarterly, question mark?
Yeah.
This could be our summer episode, maybe we have a holiday themed episode and then or
a Halloween themed episode.
It feels appropriate.
I mean, monsters.
All right.
So again, hey, hey listeners, we have no idea.
I'm in, but I'm thinking summer, spooky season, holidays, and then one in the spring.
I like it.
I like that we said magic and monsters officially.
That's our title.
What's wrong with it?
It's official.
No back seas.
Perfect alliteration.
Wonderful.
What more do you want in a title?
I don't.
Yeah.
I mean, that's all this is what we got, folks.
This is what we have for you.
Hopefully you love it.
So okay, who are we?
How do we know each other?
What are our podcasts about?
Because at this point now we are releasing these episodes on both of our podcast listener
bases basically so two different audiences are going to be listening to this and going,
I know Vincent.
I don't know Patrick or I know Patrick.
I don't know Vincent.
So Vincent, who are you and how do you know me?
My name is Vincent Hannum.
I am a playwright, film lover and all around mostly theater artist, but Patrick and I know
each other from our theater work.
I've produced a play.
He's directed that play.
We've both been actors on the same stages.
So we're just a couple of couple of artists who respect what they do, but we do.
And we are friends.
You sounded really hesitant about that.
That last little bit you're like, and we're friends.
Well, I was like, so many things fill in the blank.
No, it's going great.
So my podcast is called Camp Kaiju Monster Movie podcast.
I'm the producer and co-host.
My co-host is a novelist and film critic, Matthew Cole Levine.
And together he and I discuss a wide range of monster films, your traditional Kaiju,
Godzilla, King Kong, your more science fiction based films, space invaders, creature features
and or Disney movies that feature some strange beasts.
So I'm a huge nerd with this stuff, love doing the research, love talking about it.
And yeah, I couldn't be happier to be doing this kind of work.
Agreed.
So who are you, Patrick?
Who am I?
How do you know me?
Anyway, I know you from the same way you know me through we met through theater.
I'm Patrick Kazaki, by the way, of Gays Do the D podcast.
Also an actor, sometimes director, editor of the Gays Do the D podcast and a co-host.
There are four of us.
I am one of four and a founder of that podcast as well.
Yeah, Vincent and I met each other, as you said, through theater and we've been buddies
ever since collaborating.
I feel like we have very similar vibes and that's why we get along pretty well together.
Very well together, not pretty well.
We get along very well together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We just have an admiration and respect for each other's work and we have two very different
podcasts, yet similar podcasts in some ways in that Disney is a very sort of campy environment
as is Camp Kaiju, which is in the title of your podcast.
Our podcast, as in the name, GDTD, Gays Do the D is a Disney podcast that talks about
all things Disney, parks, movies, experiences.
We have some former cast members come on the show for interviews every once in a while,
all through just sort of a LGBTQIA plus lens.
We sort of lean into what makes Disney just a little bit gay, but it's for everybody.
Even if you're not of that community, we welcome you into our podcast.
Yeah, and we discovered that each other had a podcast and has since been on each other's
podcasts and I think we collaborate really well together.
We just have a good respect for each other's likes and dislikes.
What I love about your podcast, Vincent, this might be going way too deep into the waters,
but is that you two are such come at it as such fanboys of this genre that you're specifically
talking about, but you're not afraid to say that you don't like a movie, even if you're
reviewing it, you're like, listen, we're reviewing it.
It exists, but wasn't a fan.
So I like the honesty that you guys bring to it and you are both nerds about it as well,
which I am on the same side with Disney movies.
So it's well, that's what I was going to say.
I love people who I'm attracted to people who love what they do and you clearly have
a passion for for Disney.
You're at Disney World seemingly every other week running a marathon.
No, no.
Patrick, what are you doing this weekend?
You want to hang out?
Oh, you're running another marathon.
Got it.
In Orlando.
OK, OK, gotcha.
Behind you listeners can't see this is a wall of medals Patrick has from various Disney
marathons or runs.
I runs.
Yeah, I've done a marathon, but half marathons, 10Ks, 5Ks.
Well he's modest, everybody.
But that's why we like him.
He's truthful.
He's true.
True story.
You're you got a good show going on.
We built a huge like such a great listener base.
Just the people I've met in.
Patrick has invited me to very like a happy hour we did a couple of weeks ago that you
provide to your patrons.
Yeah.
And I got to just hang out with the Gaze to the D Tweedles.
That what you call?
We call them Tweedles.
Yeah, Tweedles.
So just good people.
And that's the thing about nerds too.
And we're going I'm going off a little bit.
But you know, monster movie lovers.
I haven't met a bad a bad apple like we just love what we love.
We love hanging out with each other.
And I get the same vibe with all you Disney nuts.
It's true.
I mean, this is why I'm excited about this podcast.
Well, for many reasons, but the debate that happens between people who love something
so passionately and we love two different aspects of these movies that we're going to
talk about so passionately.
And so I'm excited about the debate and the discussion that that is bound to happen and
hopefully the listener feedback as well.
So in future episodes, this is normally where we would maybe insert some listener feedback
here.
Obviously, we have no listeners yet, but hopefully you're listening right now and you will respond
to these podcasts and let us know what you think and whether or not you agree with us
on our thoughts on the movies that we're going to talk about and suggestions maybe for future
podcasts as well.
Well, on that note, do we want to talk about some movies that we have thrown around as
possible episodes?
I like that.
Give them a peek behind the curtain already.
Yeah, I think I think this is one of the fun things we can do is just talk about titles.
Love it.
So I've already made a list on my letterbox at Camp Kaiju of Magic and Monsters, monster
movies from the wonderful world of Disney.
I have some obvious things, Lilo and Stitch, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Monsters Inc.
Right?
Monsters is a good one.
Yeah.
We were expanding too.
So sometimes when you think about Disney, you think about just the cartoons, right?
But there are Disney owns a lot of different companies in the own searchlight now and they
own Touchstone and they own, you know, the Marvel Universe and Star Wars and all that.
So we're opening the box a little bit more than we normally would on Gaze Do the D, which
is really fun.
So we're inviting a lot more like arachnophobia came to mind for maybe an upcoming episode.
So who knows what the the the sky's the limit on this.
I'm excited for all these titles, though.
Nightmare Before Christmas, I think I'm really excited about.
Yeah, I think that I have some exciting, I don't know, just some wacky titles that were
thrown out in that happy hour.
Yeah.
What do we have?
We have a TV movie called Mr. Boogity.
Mr. Boogity and its sequel Bride of Boogity.
Yep.
Two gems, just real gems from the wonderful world of Disney.
And from the 80s, 80s is a weird time.
There's a there was there's a movie called Baby Secret of the Lost Legend about the dinosaur
one.
Right?
Yeah.
So I'm excited for you to see some of these movies for the first time as well, because
they are wild.
Some of these movies just bonkers.
But there are a couple I did in my own research.
I did come across a couple of seemingly well regarded horror movies.
Yeah.
Or like they lean more horror.
And that would be something wicked this way comes.
I was going to say, yeah, that one for sure.
And have you heard of the Watcher in the Woods?
I think isn't Bette Davis in that movie?
I'm pretty sure she is.
Yeah.
It's been a while since I've seen that one.
I don't know that it's necessarily a monster movie, so we should investigate that one a
little bit further.
But it is definitely like thriller kind of horror mystery.
Well according to the letterbox synopsis, it says after an American family moves to
an old country manor in rural England, one of the daughters is tormented by the spirit
of the owner's long lost daughter, who mysteriously disappeared 30 years ago during a solar eclipse.
True.
So it's a bit of a ghost story for sure.
Which we welcome on Camp Kaiju.
Yes, that's right.
All monsters are welcome there.
I like it.
I wonder if we so Gaze Through the D has also investigated Return to Oz, which might be
an interesting one for us to relook at when it comes to the monsters and the villains
in that movie, because it is a creepy movie for sure.
Is Wicked a Disney title?
Oh gosh, I don't think so.
Okay.
Yeah, I can't.
I don't think we can claim that one.
Not yet.
Disney will buy it at some point.
Not yet.
Yeah.
So these are a few of our potential upcoming episodes that we're tossing around, but we
are welcome to your suggestions.
If there's something out there that you're dying to learn more about that you want us
to dig into, let us know for sure.
Also what are some upcoming movies that haven't been released yet that you are excited about
when it comes to either Disney or Monster or both or none of the above?
What's coming up is on your radar right now.
Oh my gosh.
Well, Disney Disney, I know there's a live action Lilo and Stitch next year.
Yes.
I should be told I'm not excited for that.
I'll tell you why.
Okay, great.
I love the animated feature.
Yeah.
So, so wonderfully much.
And I, and I'm not like a Disney super junkie.
So I am not a fan of all these live action remakes that they do.
I hear you.
Yeah.
I just, from my maybe cynical point of view, I'm just like, that's just a cash grab with
no like, what are you offering that's new?
Because when I watch the live action Lion King, yeah, well, it just makes me want to
watch the animated Lion King, which is arguably much better.
I hear you.
Yeah.
It's just that age old question of like, just because we can do this, should we do this?
I don't know.
But what do you think?
Are you excited for Lilo and Stitch?
I'm nervous about it because yeah, I mean, Lilo and Stitch is such a, it's like one of
your favorite ornaments that you bring out and look at on the Christmas tree.
You don't even mean that you want to take care of.
And so I'm just nervous about it.
And Stitch is such a classic look of a character.
And so they're altering it just a little bit.
And I've seen images and I'm just like, ah, I don't know.
That's not the Stitch that I, that I know and love, but am I being a curmudgeon?
Maybe who knows?
I think it actually comes out this year.
I think it comes out sooner than we think it does.
Right.
Yeah.
I love Lilo and Stitch and I love that it was not expected to do well, that it was some,
some call it the last truly great Disney animated feature from Disney Studios.
Wow.
And I mean, the animation is gorgeous in it, but the story is so unorthodox.
Like it's a weird alien sci-fi thing.
Yes.
Like it became like a dark horse of a movie that became a classic.
Yeah.
And then they found it later on and it's now become like a cult classic for sure.
Right.
But now with a live action, I don't know.
Are you going mainstream with my Lilo and Stitch?
I know I'm nervous.
I'll go see it for sure, but I'm nervous about it.
I don't know.
I am excited about the new Deadpool and Wolverine movie that's coming out later this year as
well.
I think it'll be a fun one.
Yeah.
Wolverine's in the classic duds, the yellow and blue.
So that touches my nostalgia bone.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
And then what's the new alien movie that's coming out as well?
Is that coming this year?
Yeah.
Romulus in August.
In August.
That'll be exciting.
Yeah.
Some big titles are coming out for sure, whether or not they're going to be good.
We'll see.
We'll be sure to talk about them though.
That's for sure.
But if you are excited about Lilo and Stitch, don't let me rain on your parade.
Go enjoy it.
Love it.
I'm sure there's one or two people out there who are really excited about it.
Yeah, and you should be.
You should be.
All right.
Well, what do you say, Vincent, we get into the meat and bones of our episode today and
talk about our main segment, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
I wish I could do a Roger Rabbit impression.
Please try.
All right, Vincent, we're here.
At last we made it.
We're talking about Who Framed Roger Rabbit today.
I'm so excited to talk to you about this movie for so many reasons, but let's talk about
first why we picked this as our first movie to talk about on our newish.
I'm using air quotes.
You can't see it right now on the, because it's a podcast, this movie to talk about on
our first episode of Magic and Monsters.
What are your thoughts behind that?
Is Roger Rabbit your idea or mine?
Now I can't remember at all.
I feel like it came up organically between the two of us in conversation one time and
I don't remember what the conversation was, but I remember you saying that you hadn't
seen it in a very long time, right?
Because you saw it early on in childhood.
Is that right?
Yeah.
So my personal history with the film, and I'd love to hear yours, Patrick.
Yeah.
When I was a kid, I had seen Roger Rabbit, it wasn't on heavy rotation in my youth and
therefore I just kind of remembered.
I had always remembered bits and pieces, particularly the Judge Doom aspects, which have I think
seared into the brains of any young person who's seen this movie.
Yeah, for sure.
So I hadn't given a rewatch literally until early this year and I was 32 at the time,
so it'd probably been over 20 years since I'd seen it.
And I was watching a lot of movies with my daughter, she was born in November and she
was sleeping and I was like, all right, let's do Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
It blew me away because as I said earlier, I love cartoons, I love Looney Tunes and I
love 1940s hard boiled detective stories.
Yeah.
Man, this movie was made for me.
I know it is whether the creators say so or not.
Fair, fair.
I think they would agree.
And I think you hit on something.
I think that's why we decided to do this because I think you texted me after or during your
watch of this and you were like, if you guys ever do Roger Rabbit, I want to come on your
podcast and talk about it with you.
I think that may be how it happened.
And then I was like, well, what if we just talked about it together?
And then so I think maybe Roger Rabbit was a catalyst of doing this subset podcast altogether,
maybe.
And so it just naturally became our first episode.
I think maybe that is part of it.
Sounds right.
Sure.
Yeah, that's that's what it is from now on.
That's our story for sure.
Let's see my history with that.
I remember distinctly going to see this movie at the Terrace Theater in Minneapolis, Minnesota,
and absolutely loving it.
So this was in its first release, obviously, loving it and at the same time being 100 percent
terrified of Judge Doom and the Weasels and all.
It was just one of the I think it was maybe my first foray into not that this is a horror
movie by any stretch, but it's real scary many, many times in the movie, especially
Judge Doom, especially at the end.
It's terrifying for a kid.
And it's I mean, it's not unscary now as an adult.
It's wacky and it's wild and it's so over the top that it's sort of like is an assault
to the senses sometimes this movie.
And yeah, I've always been a fan of who frame Roger Rabbit.
I've been wanting them to do a sequel forever.
And there is one out there, but no one is jumping at the bit to do it.
Apparently it's a really good script, too.
I haven't obviously read it, but it's it's it's out there and it it may happen at some
point, maybe on Disney+.
So who knows?
But yeah, it's it's been in my heart for a very, very long time.
It's such a unique film and it speaks to me, I think, because I love the magic of the movies
and knowing how they're done.
I'm obsessed with it and digging into like, how did they figure this out?
How do they do this?
I'm such a nerd that way.
And so and this movie is just chock full of you can go down.
Pardon the pun, the rabbit hole on this of figuring out the magic behind this movie.
And I'm sure there's so many elements out there that we just don't even know to look
into.
You know what I mean?
There's so much more to this level stuff that we can like it's on IMDb or it's on Wikipedia
or whatever, which we hopefully will unfold for our audiences today.
But it's so it's such a good it's such a good movie.
And to me, it's still holds up as a wonderfully done movie and visually stands the test of
time for me.
Oh, yeah, right.
It's not just no shade on Space Jam, but.
A little a little shade.
Space Jam, I think, is the is a fair comparison.
It's what you think of like mixing classic cartoons with actors.
You're going to think Space Jam, which revisiting as an adult, you go, wow, this story is paper
thin.
The Looney Tunes are funny, but there's nothing beyond those gags.
But meanwhile, Roger Rabbit actually has like a real deep it's a real deep character journey
with Eddie Valiant and Roger and how they they come to terms with each other.
Yeah.
And such memorable side characters.
Jessica Rabbit, Baby Herman.
Oh, my gosh.
This is Chef's Kiss.
I love all these characters.
And then you get the cameos with bugs.
So many.
Yeah.
Other classic cartoons.
And we'll talk about that at the end.
Who made the cut?
Who didn't?
Who was unable?
Sure.
Which which which rights were unavailable.
Ultimately, various cartoon characters.
So many Easter eggs in this movie.
You could watch it a thousand times and go, oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize that character
was in the background just sitting there with no lines.
And it's yeah, it's remarkable.
Remarkable.
So let's dig into a little bit of the history behind this movie, because it's got a real
fascinating story of how it got made, why it got made, the process in which it got made,
who was ultimately cast in the movie and who ultimately got to direct the movie.
It's a fascinating story.
I think a lot of people don't know that Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
The beginnings come from a novel in 1981, right, called Who Censored Roger Rabbit by
the author Gary Wolf.
And we have both been reading this book.
I got it a copy of it for you for your birthday recently.
And it's it's a it's an interesting book.
I really implore our listeners out there, if you're readers and you are a fan of who
frame Roger Rabbit, read this book.
It's it's pretty good.
It's very different from the movie.
I'll spoil that for you.
I wouldn't even say it's close to being the same story.
Yeah, it is a detective story.
Yeah, Roger Rabbit is in it.
Eddie Valiant is in it.
Jessica, Baby Herman.
Some of your favorite characters are in it, but in different ways than you would expect
them to be completely different.
And I just finished it, actually.
You did.
OK, yeah, I actually listened to the audiobook, which got it really great because it is well,
it is a film, not a film noir, but it is a noir, pulpy vibe.
And you reader of the book is very good.
He does all the voices for all the characters.
OK, is Roger Rabbit sounds like Jimmy Stewart?
Oh, interesting.
Great.
Especially when you realize that Jimmy Stewart played in a movie called Harvey Harvey.
Yeah, about an imaginary rabbit.
One of my favorite plays actually is Harvey.
I love that.
Too funny, too funny.
And another big difference.
And it's not a huge difference, I guess, because but they are noticeable like references in
who censored Roger Rabbit because it's set in the 80s, I believe, whereas who framed
Roger Rabbit is set in the 1940s.
And so the references are very different that they are able to pull from, which is, you
know, kind of kind of fascinating when you dig into it.
Yeah.
But this was a book.
And Patrick, can you speak to the a little bit of that early development from the screen?
Yeah.
So I can't tell you exactly why, but so the book was released in 1981 and that very same
year that the book was released, Disney grabbed it and said, this is ours.
We're going to make this movie somewhere somehow.
And they did.
Obviously, it was released in 1988.
The president of the company then of Disney, Ron Miller, he knew that Disney needed a hit.
And for some reason, he read this book or heard about this book and thought this is
going to be our juggernaut.
This is going to be what's going to save Disney because it had been a while in both live action
and in animation for Disney that they had anything really of note.
Basically, Mary Poppins was maybe the last thing that did really well in theaters for
Disney.
And that was, you know, 10, 15 years before this movie came out.
So Disney was on the struggle bus for a while.
And you can you can there's many wonderful documentaries and books all about, you know,
sort of waking, sleeping beauty and how the Disney Renaissance came to be.
And you know, I feel like Ron Miller, kudos to you, sir, because you found the exact project
that I would argue, Vincent, I don't know, and maybe you go with being the journey did
end up kind of saving the company.
It sort of resurrected animation for many different companies, not just Disney, that
people really fell in love with animation after who framed Roger Rabbit.
And it was one of the biggest box office successes of all time at the time for Disney and for
other companies as well.
Yep, 100 percent.
And I think I'm fascinated by the context of of the Walt Disney Studios in the 70s and
80s.
And I think for my listeners, especially this is the fascinating nugget of Hollywood history.
As you say, Walt Disney was really in the pits.
This was before the so-called Renaissance that started with the animated Renaissance,
The Little Mermaid, through Lilo and Stitch.
But you know, so the 90s was a big deal.
But before then, not a great place for animation at Disney or and and or elsewhere.
Yeah.
So I I am fascinated by Roger Rabbit's development with how many different parties were involved.
Yeah.
So Steven Spielberg was a big player on this film.
Was he a producer?
He was.
He didn't jump on it first, though.
So a lot of people threw their hat in the ring for this movie when it when development
just really early days first started to happen.
Fun fact, Robert Zemeckis wanted to direct this immediately right away.
He saw the potential in this.
But Disney turned him down because this was before Robert Zemeckis was Robert Zemeckis,
right?
He had not yet directed Back to the Future.
He hadn't done anything yet, basically.
And so Disney was like, sorry about it.
We want somebody bigger than you to do this.
So they did a lot of testing at first.
They hired a couple of writers.
They hired an animator whose name was Daryl Van Ciders, I believe.
C I T T E R S. I'm going to maybe hopefully it's Ciders.
I'm just going to call them Ciders from now on to head up animation.
He was big at Warner Brothers and Looney Tunes at the time.
It was interesting that they kind of knew right away because the book does involve many
different characters from many different companies.
And I don't know how he got around those rights, but he names them all in his book and apparently
did not get sued by anybody.
And so I think Disney knew that they had to sort of collaborate somehow.
So they immediately hired an animator who already knew intimately the Warner Brothers
and Looney Tunes characters.
Right.
Well, it was it was Spielberg who I saw with Kathleen Kennedy were executive producers
on the film.
Yes.
But it was Spielberg using his clout to convince.
Yep.
Others, Warner Brothers, Flesher, Flesher Studios.
Sorry, like Woody Woodpecker to to to collaborate with Disney.
This had never happened before.
Ever before.
It hasn't happened since.
No, it was a stroke of genius that they brought him on.
Yeah, just a stroke of genius and good luck, I feel as well, because he wasn't doing it
doing anything else at the time, which is weird because his studio was just getting
off the ground.
This was I think in 1985.
So Michael.
So there's a changing of the guards at Disney.
Right.
Michael Eisner comes on and he has been largely known as he wants to commercialize Disney.
And whether or not you agreed with that, he brought a lot of money into the company.
So he knew right away we got it.
We got to get Steven Spielberg, who at the time, yeah, Kathleen Kennedy, as you said,
and Frank Marshall were all three of them heading up this production company, Abelon
production company.
And I don't see this movie getting made without them.
Right.
I mean, it just wouldn't have happened.
Not on the scale that it did, because they had the money, the know how, the clout.
Right.
Like you said, because Steven Spielberg was responsible for getting all of these crazy
companies to say yes, to be a part of a Disney movie, even though their name wasn't going
to be billed.
Basically, it was going to be billed as a Disney movie.
And it was obviously so pretty wild.
Yeah.
So you saying Frank Marshall just makes me just want to just want to say I pulled a lot
of my information from the DVD audio commentary, which has producer Frank Marshall, director
Robert Zemeckis, screenwriters Jeffrey Price, Peter Seaman, associate producer Steve Starkey
and visual effects artist Ken Ralston.
So most of what I'm going to say is pulled from that commentary.
Yeah.
It's very insightful.
It's really good.
Definitely watch it.
I think it's on Disney Plus as well.
If you look at the go to the deleted scene section, and I think there's a commentary
section there too.
And it's really good.
Really, really good.
OK.
So I guess if we zoom right along through here on the timeline.
So we got Steven Spielberg.
Steven Spielberg sort of gets all of these Warner Brothers, the Fleischer Studios, as
you said, Harvey Comics, a bunch of different companies that have all of these characters
that they need and want.
Most of them said yes.
A lot of them said no.
But once they got all of these rights, I think they they didn't know what they were going
to get until they got Steven Spielberg on board and he got them a lot of what they wanted.
So they're they get approved for a 30 million dollar budget with this movie, right?
Which at the time, 30 million dollars was the most expensive animated movie of all time
at the time.
For comparison, E.T. was only made for 10 million dollars.
And that was an enormous movie.
And so if you think about 30 million dollars, they were like, oh, we can't do this.
So but it gets greenlit.
They get all of these these characters on board.
They get all of these different companies on board.
The budget starts to balloon.
I can't remember the exact number.
It jumped up to like 50 or 60 million dollars after this because they realized there's just
no way they can do all this work without a larger budget.
And again, thank goodness we have Michael Eisner on board who was all in.
He just said yes to everything, basically.
Well, I don't know if it was Eisner, but sure.
Yeah.
But but Disney still had to be convinced along the way that it was worth the money they were
investing.
Right.
And again, from this commentary, Disney wanted at first only 12 minutes of animation because
that's where most of their money was going to be spent.
Right.
12 minutes.
It ended up being 54 minutes.
And then final cut.
We have 48 minutes of animation in this movie.
Which is I mean, half the movie, basically.
There's not a scene really that doesn't have some form of animation in it.
If it even it's just a cell of something like there is animation in almost every single
frame, which is what is crazy to think that they only they signed on for 12 minutes and
they got basically the full right.
So you talk about a ballooning budget, whatever the number was.
Yeah.
You can just tell based on that it was getting out of hand.
And also we talk about these these cartoon characters, not inexpensive.
So we had obviously Warner Brothers owns the rights to the Looney Tunes.
Fleischer Studios.
I think I said Woody Woodpecker.
That's actually universal.
But a character like Betty Boop is your studios.
She has she like she's a real person.
I'm going to refer to all these animated 100 percent.
You have to.
Yeah.
Ms. Boop plays a wonderful part.
Yes.
In Roger Rabbit.
But you know, characters like Felix the cat, which, you know, you talk about classic animation.
There's a lot of things I'm not even an expert in, but I'll see that character and I go,
oh, yeah, I've seen that just like in the cultural through the cultural osmosis.
But Patrick, who are some characters that they couldn't get for this movie?
So a lot, actually, I imagine.
But the big ones that they really wanted to get were like Popeye and Tom and Jerry and
Casper the friendly ghost were were ones that they they I think they in the original
script, they had parts written for these characters, but they just they couldn't reach an agreement
with their perspective companies.
And so they sadly did not make did not make a list.
So they some rewrites had to happen.
Some different characters shifted in and out of different roles, I think, at the time.
So unfortunately, they couldn't get them.
I want to be a fly on the wall during those agreement negotiations of so just some fun
things that came out of the negotiations that were like screen time for animated characters
as though they're like actors in their trailer waiting for their contracts to be approved
or whatever.
It's it's crazy.
So the only reason they got big characters like Bugs Bunny or a Daffy Duck, right, is
that they agreed to give them exactly the same amount of screen time as their counterpart
at Disney would have.
So that's why you have a lot of scenes where it's Donald Duck and Daffy Duck doing pianos
and they have the exact amount of screen time because they weren't going to get the Daffy
Duck unless he got as much billing rights as Donald Duck, which is like it's crazy.
You hear this same thing with actual actors.
Yes, yes.
Right.
I don't want to do that movie if I'm getting second billing.
So right.
The lawyers do their thing.
Yeah.
Or if I only have seven lines and this other actor who is the same getting paid the same
as much amount as me has eight lines.
I'm not doing it.
We're both going to have the same number of lines.
So I think I might love Looney Tunes as much as you love Disney.
Sure.
So yeah, Donald Duck does not get priority over Daffy.
I'm sorry.
Daffy is clearly the superior duck.
Yeah, we'll have a fight about that.
That's fine.
We'll put a pin in that one.
But yeah, and even like Mickey Mouse, Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny, I guess, they decided
that they were the two biggest stars at Disney.
And so they gave them the exact amount of screen time.
And this flows through to even the end of the movie where Porky Pig comes out and then
Tinkerbell comes out.
And so you get the exact amount of screen time.
That was Eisner's touch, actually.
He was the one who said we need Tink in this.
We need.
Yeah, he put Tinkerbell in there for the same reason.
We don't want to end a Disney movie with a Warner Brothers ending.
Doesn't make sense at all.
It was it was great.
I mean, it was a class.
It was just a touch of genius, I feel like.
But yeah, you just see you see those.
So if you watch the movie, look for those little partnerships that happen throughout
the movie of like, oh, interesting.
There's that character next to that character and they have the same amount of screen time,
which is a fascinating thing.
Can I ask you something?
Yeah.
Are there like what what kind of movies can we see Mickey Mouse and and his friends in?
Because I feel like so just from like an outsider's perspective.
Sure.
The Looney Tunes are everywhere.
Those cartoons ran nonstop back in the day on Cartoon Network.
Yeah.
But even on the Disney Channel, I don't remember any of the Disney shorts in the classic, you
know, 30s and 40s and 50s.
I'm sure Disney made Mickey Mouse shorts.
Hundreds.
Where are they?
They're they're on Disney+.
You can you can look at that as a whole.
Yeah, there's like a there's like a I can't remember.
There's like a shorts collection or something.
If you if you look, if you sift through them, they're not all there.
I mean, some of them I think maybe are problematic a little bit or they just they're just way
too old to to put them anywhere.
But they're out there.
Hundreds and hundreds.
Donald Duck, I think, actually has more shorts than Mickey Mouse does because they used Donald
Duck in war videos.
Yeah, they did.
So he's out there a ton.
There's not a lot of when it comes to feature length animated movies that star the classic
The Fab Five.
We'll call them Mickey Mini, Donald, Pluto, Daisy, if you want to do six.
Goofy.
Yep.
There's not a ton.
There's like a goofy movie which is out there.
Mickey Mouse, though, they they don't like to trot him out unless it's a Mickey Mouse
vehicle necessarily.
And he's not really a feature length animated character.
He's in a lot of longer shorts that like The Prince and the Popper or Mickey's Christmas
Carol or Mickey and the Beanstalk.
Those are some of the bigger known ones.
So no, you're not going to see a lot of feature length animated movies with with those characters.
They kind of preserve them for when they really want to use them, which is mostly in the parks,
to be honest, nowadays.
Yeah.
But I mean, and I'm just observing how interesting of a choice that is.
Yeah.
Mickey Mouse is, along with bugs, got to shout out my man there.
Yeah.
The most recognizable animated character across the globe in the world.
Yeah.
Actually think he Mickey Mouse is number one.
Bugs is number two.
But yeah, you'd think they would want to capitalize on that in terms of feature length movies.
I don't think they need to, though.
I think this is such an interesting conversation to have on a monster podcast as well.
But I think they I don't know this as a fact.
But the way that they use Mickey Mouse is that he's sort of the boss of Disney.
Like he is actually the CEO of Disney.
And so he's used for, I don't know, advertising Disney, basically.
He's just the face of Disney.
And so to put him in a movie, a feature length movie, I think waters down the clout of Mickey
Mouse.
You know what?
We can we can move on.
But I also I want to say that there is a Steamboat Willie slasher movie.
Yes.
Yes, there is, because the rights have passed and so it's everyone grabbed onto it and said,
we're doing something crazy with Steamboat Willie.
Stay tuned, everybody.
At least the Steamboat Willie version of Mickey Mouse will be in a feature length film.
And it will be featured on this podcast as well.
Not a Disney movie, to be clear.
Fair, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair.
Patrick Vincent.
We need to throw down and quiz each other.
OK, the gloves are going to come off the little cartoon white gloves.
Yes.
I interrupt this program for a impromptu Roger Rabbit quiz, yeah.
Pop quiz and not just Roger Rabbit.
This is true.
My my quiz.
The questions I'm going to ask you relate to cartoons, Disney and Warner Brothers.
And they have a monster theme to them.
Awesome.
Mine are Disney specific, but related somehow to who framed Roger Rabbit.
I'm super excited about this.
We're trying something new, everybody.
A little behind the scenes.
We're trying something new.
So let's see if you like it.
If not, we're still going to do it probably.
All right.
Who wants to go first?
You hit me first.
OK, is there a prize at the end of this?
No, the prize is we get to keep doing the podcast.
Yeah.
You know, just you know, if you win, Disney is the best.
And if I win.
On this episode of Magic and Monsters, I am playing for Bugs Bunny.
Oh, OK.
OK.
It's Rabbit versus Rabbit.
So I'm playing for Roger Rabbit and you're playing for Bugs Bunny.
OK.
All right.
OK, so I'm going to ask you a question first.
Is that what we're saying?
Yeah.
Here we go.
So Hollywood Studios in Orlando opened a year after Roger Rabbit was released.
And you could argue that much of this park drew inspiration from the art direction of
who framed Roger Rabbit.
In fact, they had originally planned to have a Roger Rabbit themed area that would have
represented Toontown, much like they have in Disneyland.
The idea was, of course, scrapped.
But there are little Easter eggs throughout the park of referencing who framed Roger Rabbit,
one of which is a window and blinds with a cutout of of Roger Rabbit, replicating the
scene from the movie where he jumps out of the window.
Where in the park is this window located?
All right.
It's a it's a multiple choice.
OK, thank goodness.
Thank Elmer Fudd.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
OK, so it's above one of these restaurants.
Is it above the 50s prime time?
Is it above Hollywood and Vine or is it above the Brown Derby?
Oh, I have walked by all those restaurants.
I have to think I'm going to say Hollywood and Vine.
You are correct.
Well done.
Yes.
Right in the heart, basically, of Echo Lake.
All right.
Nice.
It's been too long to have been to Hollywood Studios, but I know low key my favorite park.
It's it's yeah, I would have to agree with you.
And I actually sent you a picture of this last time I was there a couple of weeks ago.
All right.
I got one for you here.
So I'm nervous.
OK.
Millicent Patrick was one of the first female animators at Disney when she was hired in
1939.
OK, she helped animate the Night at Bald Mountain sequence of Fantasia released in 1940.
This in and of itself was inspired by the 1925 German film Faust from 1926.
OK.
Millicent Patrick would later distinguish herself as the designer of which famous movie
monster is it a the creature from the Black Lagoon?
Oh, be the Wolfman.
He the monster in the beast from twenty thousand fathoms.
What?
OK.
You said OK, can I ask you a follow up question?
OK, just I just.
You're doing new things.
I know logistically.
You said she would later be known as right.
So this would have happened after Night at Bald Mountain or was this before?
After this was after really?
OK, the fact that any of these creatures were created after I'm going to go with based on
aesthetic alone.
If I'm thinking of the Night on Bald Mountain, the creature from the Black Lagoon, you are
correct.
Hey, amazing.
I don't know if that's why it would have.
But for some reason, those two characters look a little bit similar to me.
Yeah, yeah.
And Millicent Patrick, she only in the only very recently has been getting the recognition
due to her.
Wow.
The male heads of, you know, Hollywood kind of suppress that for many decades.
Sure.
Yeah, she's a she's a trailblazer.
That's amazing.
Amazing.
All right.
Well, OK, my next question for you actually kind of has to do with amazing women in animation.
So here we go.
Jessica Rabbit.
Well, the nightclub that Jessica Rabbit performs in has a very special name to it, and it has
to do with some very famous ladies within the Disney company.
Is the name of the nightclub Club 33?
Is it the ink and paint club or is it the adventurers club?
Oh, wow.
Small details.
I'm going to say the adventurers club.
I can see why you would guess that because it is an actual club within Disney, but that's
not the correct answer.
It is the ink and paint club, which is named after the very famous ink and paint department,
which was established in 1932, celebrating.
Well, we celebrate them now, but they weren't celebrated quite so much then the women who
were in charge of painting all of the cells in Disney cartoons.
Millicent Patrick was one of those ladies.
I was going to say, I believe she was one of the founders of the ink and paint club.
So I'll take the loss.
I'll take the hit.
It's fine.
I thought that you said not ink and paint, but ink and paint as in indigenous peoples.
Gotcha.
Sorry.
I will enunciate my next question a lot better for you.
I'll find a word to mispronounce in my question for you.
Yes.
Wonderful.
OK.
Yes.
Bugs Bunny confronts a tall, hairy orange monster named Gossamer in two shorts, hair
raising hair and water, water, every hair.
Now the mic.
Now my question is, what does Gossamer wear on his feet?
A platform shoes, B tennis shoes or C roller skates?
Oh, wow.
OK.
I can picture this character.
I know exactly who you're talking about, but I can't scan down to see his feet.
Oh, gosh.
I don't I feel like it's not roller skates.
I feel like that's a little too wild to animate, but I'm probably wrong.
I'm going to go with tennis shoes.
I feel like it's tennis shoes.
I feel like it's a basic situation because he stole he so extravagant.
Yeah.
Well, it's tennis shoes.
Yeah.
So you're technically winning.
Fair.
That was a strong guess, though.
I have to.
Oh, man.
Fun fact, though, I did not know the fun fact.
I didn't know that he even had a name.
I just thought he was like the Orange Harry guy or something.
Yeah.
Well, his name is something I always have to remind myself of, but it's Gossamer.
I like it.
I wonder if the Disney version of Gossamer is Sweetums, the big, huge Muppet, the big
Harry Muppet.
I can see that the Muppet show, although not technically a Disney character, but they own
him now.
Anyways.
OK, all right.
Yeah.
All right.
Last question.
So as we discuss in this episode, who framed Roger Rabbit, of course, was not the first
Disney project to use live action and animation.
So can you name the first Disney project that did use live action and animation at the same
time?
Was it the Shaggy Dog?
Was it the three Caballeros or was it Alice's Wonderland?
This is not my guess.
I'm just clarifying.
Great.
Alice's Wonderland or Alice in Wonderland?
That's a very good observation.
I did, in fact, say Alice's Wonderland, not Alice in Wonderland.
Mr. Ink in Paint.
OK, you heard very not at all what I said, but OK, fair.
I'll give it to you.
You know, because I do love these characters, I'm going to say the three Caballeros.
I'll give you a half a point for this because I believe the three Caballeros was the first
full length animated project that used animation and live action.
But it was, in fact, Alice's Wonderland way back in 1923, which would have been the start
of the Alice comedies, which was also the same year that the Disney Brothers Studio
was created, now, of course, known as the Walt Disney Company.
Wow.
I know.
There's some history for you.
Yeah, really and truly.
So that kind of started and not saved, but it jumpstarted the Walt Disney Company.
And then who frame Roger Rabbit sort of saved the Disney Company.
So a nice little book in there.
OK, so let's let's let's recap our points here.
So I have one and a half points.
I'll give you one and three quarters because of Inken.
OK, I have one and some change.
Great.
You have two points.
I do.
I do have a strong two.
OK.
So you're just playing for fun now.
Now it's just I'm going to I'm all in on this one.
All the chips are on the table.
OK, all right.
Nothing to lose.
You know, we can keep the points going, though, throughout the whole Magic and Monster series.
So this is not be the end, right?
We'll come back and I'll take the lead next time.
All right.
Here we go.
I believe in you.
So Warner Brothers had Looney Tunes and Mary Melodies.
We had silly symphonies, a series of short animated cartoons from 1929 to 1939.
What is the name of the very first silly symphony?
Oh, gosh.
So, you know, I know, you know it.
Is it the graveyard jamboree, the skeleton dance or Mickey and Donald Hunt, Witches in
the Moonlight?
Are all three of these actual titles or did you make up two of them?
I don't know.
It's it's the skeleton dance, right?
Yes.
I did make up the other two.
OK, great.
I was like, I don't feel like those are titles.
So it's got to be.
Oh, amazing.
Amazing.
There's actually a really interesting documentary about the making of the skeleton dance.
I think it's on YouTube.
You should go look it up.
Yeah, I definitely want to.
I just think that it's really neat that Disney's first cartoon short is a horror based, very
macabre story.
It's pretty creepy, actually.
It's actually really.
Yeah, macabre is a really good word for it because it's it's it's out there for Disney,
for sure.
Oh, good stuff.
Good.
All right.
Great.
So we'll end this final score.
Yeah, three.
All right.
And since I'm going to say one and a half.
Oh, great.
I like it.
I like your modesty there.
I was going to be generous and give you one and three quarters, but one and a half it
is.
Oh, yeah, I just can't do math.
I thought that was less than one half.
You know what?
For that, you're back.
You're down to one and a half.
One and a half it is.
It's easy.
Yeah, it's easier for me to remember.
Oh, amazing.
Amazing.
Well, this was fun.
Thank you for bringing this to the table, Vincent.
And now, I guess, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Yep.
OK, so let's get let's get back on track with before we get into sort of the filming process
of the movie.
So in 1985, then, right, we're fast forwarding in time here a little bit.
Robert Zemeckis, they don't have a director yet for the movie still, but they but they
do have a script and they do have all the characters are purchased and it's going forward.
Robert Zemeckis has since directed Romancing the Stone and Back to the Future, both of
which were massive box office hits.
And so Disney said, OK, you can come on board now now that he now that he has a proven track
record of making money, which is makes sense.
I mean, because the point of this movie is to make Disney as much money as possible because
they're they're they're flopping around right now.
They don't know what's going on in the theater.
So they bring on Robert Zemeckis, who has an established relationship with Steven Spielberg.
Thank goodness.
So they're working really well together.
The two of them decide to get rid of Vansiders as the director of animation.
And instead, they get Richard Williams, who already has a proven track record.
He's an Academy Award winner at the time.
He's got a few Emmys under his belt.
He's their guy.
However, Williams doesn't initially want to do the movie.
But Disney basically gives him creative control over the animation of this movie.
And they offer to move the production for him from Los Angeles to England.
So the entire movie then is moved to England for this animator.
And I feel like, again, without Richard Williams, this movie doesn't work at all.
His his know how in and how to make this animation work pays off tenfold.
He adds all these really amazing touches to the movie.
For example, like the just the creation of Roger Rabbit himself.
His vision of Roger Rabbit was a combination of everyone's favorite characters.
So Roger Rabbit has droopy dogs, red swatch of hair.
He's got goofy overalls.
He's got porky pigs, bow tie, Mickey Mouse's gloves and Bugs Bunny's ears and cheeks.
So he knew to throw all these loving and adored characters together to make a character that
everyone was going to fall in love with visually.
I mean, genius, I feel like it's kind of wild.
That mind is amazing to me.
Yeah, I am just looking up Richard Williams is filmography.
Some of the movies he's worked on.
Sure.
As maybe, well, actor, writer.
Well, nothing's really coming up quickly.
He knows what he's doing.
I guess I cut the point of everything I just said for the past 30 seconds.
Delete it.
Amazing.
Another smart thing that he does, Richard Williams, he brings on an associate producer,
basically.
He's an up and comer by the name of Don Hahn, who interestingly has been on the GDTD podcast.
But Don Hahn thankfully came onto this movie because he, after this movie, he would go
on to produce a few small films like Beauty and the Beast, The Hunchback of Notre Dame,
The Lion King.
And this launched the career of Don Hahn, basically, which is pretty incredible.
So a lot of things fell into place during the production casting of this movie that,
A, this movie doesn't get made without them and B, a lot of other movies don't get made
without them being involved in this movie.
It's true.
It's pretty wild.
Yeah, when you think about, again, the historical context of Disney at this time.
Yeah.
It being shot in the UK saved a lot of money, too.
It was very cheap.
It was cheaper than shooting in Hollywood.
And they did their casting in the UK, too.
So Bob Hoskins as Eddie Valiant.
Sure.
He's a British actor.
You would never know it because he just so perfectly embodies a Los Angeles detective.
How he didn't even get nominated for an Academy Award for playing this role is beyond me because
really, and truly, I don't this is not hyperbole.
He's perfect in this movie, in this role.
You believe you can smell the booze coming off of him when he's on screen.
You know what I mean?
He just gets it.
He knows what he's doing.
And it was his physical acting, too, that won him the part.
So Hoskins is pantomiming essentially when he's by himself because all the animation
was added in later.
And maybe an actor standing in for in place of Roger Rabbit, the character.
But it was Hoskins doing everything in a vacuum.
He didn't know what this was going to look like, sound like.
And I think Hoskins' background is in a lot of physical theater as well, which you can
see a taste of right at the end of the movie when Hoskins, when Eddie Valiant is doing
a little routine to throw off the weasels.
But you can see what a natural he is in those moments with just his pratfalls and his tumbling
and his clowning, really.
Absolutely.
Well, let's talk about so you mentioned the acting of him is amazing and him not knowing
what these characters are necessarily going to look like in the filming of this movie.
There were many characters that you're right.
But Jessica Rabbit, he had no idea what she was going to look like until post-production
basically.
So they just tell him, imagine the most beautiful woman you've ever seen.
And it worked like he is so good at what he's doing.
But they realized during the filming that they have to figure out all these tricks of
how to film this movie, knowing that we have moving cameras, which almost never happens
or has happened before in an animated slash live action movie.
So they're breaking all the rules here already.
And so they have to figure out how to draw this and how are we going to keep it level?
And so they do end up creating a bunch of puppets for the movie of some of these characters
like Roger Rabbit that would stand in that would be to scale, I think of what it would
actually be on the screen that he can then have an eye focus on.
And so you notice that his eye level is always in the correct spot because they have these
puppets in place that then they later scrub out and add in the animation.
It's just it's so fascinating, the making of this movie that you think of puppetry is
involved in this animated movie.
Yeah.
The nightclub scene starring Miss Boop features a lot of penguin waiters carrying around trick
trays of cocktails.
And there's an octopus, an animated octopus behind the bar favorite with eight arms, you
know, swill and drinks and making drinks and all those were puppet stand ins.
Yeah.
And I can't even imagine.
I don't know if it exists, but I'd love to see behind the scenes footage of whatever
it looked like before the animation was put in.
Oh, that would be such a good the raw footage of it would be so cool to see because they
yeah, they have like the octopus, for example, there were marionettes above the soundstage
moving the drinks and things and they were tied to things that the actor could then pull
the drink off of the string and then carry it with them as though it was just happening
in real life.
The octopus had just given her a cocktail.
It's crazy.
It's so good that these puppeteers need their own Academy Award as well, because it's just
perfect.
It's absolutely perfect.
So wonderful.
Just so much work and which is like a good thing.
And you know, Patrick and other creators listening to this, it's just you just have so much respect
and Roger Rabbit is a is a well made movie.
But quote unquote poorly made movies.
It still takes a level of commitment and focus and resources and everything.
So much has to go right.
And when I just go right and with Roger Rabbit, it does.
And it makes you appreciate what is possible.
Yes.
Movie making.
Well, and this is what I love about Disney so much, too.
And I think this is just a through line in the history of Disney movies.
And not to say that other studios don't do this as well, but Disney takes such big swings
and they aren't afraid to learn as they go on, especially like on a movie like this.
They were making stuff up.
They were there.
I mean, they built robots.
They figured out how to build a robot arm for baby Herman to hold a cigar that they
would then later animate over to figure that they just their team of of Imagineers is so
creative that without them again, I'll be saying this a thousand times without them,
movies like this don't get made because they're not afraid to learn as they go.
So we don't have to spend time on this tangent.
But this conversation makes me think about previous movies, Disney movies that blended
the live action with animation like Mary Poppins.
Sure.
Dead Knobs and Broomsticks is a personal favorite of mine.
Yeah.
So tell me like, well, I mean, you can if you're familiar with those films.
Yeah.
You can see that Roger Rabbit is on a different level than Mary Poppins.
Yeah.
Do you agree with that?
A hundred percent.
I mean, beyond like Mary Poppins, you know, walked so Roger Rabbit could fly a jet.
Basically, you know, the comparison is is you can't you can't compare them really, because
well, again, they broke all the rules, like I said, right, with Roger Rabbit and how they
did this.
So if you watch Mary Poppins, yes, they have animated characters, but they're all really
still shots.
They're not.
It's on a moving camera.
And the animated characters are not interacting with live props or touching people really.
So that's part of the magic of Roger Rabbit in that this was the first time really you
see an animated character holding an actual cigar or a glass of beer or whatever it is
and having it float through the air.
Even in Bed, Doms and Ribs six, they did a little bit.
They pushed it a little bit further, but it's mostly the animated characters are just overlaid
over a still shot.
And so it's hard to do.
But it's what they did with Roger Rabbit was astronomically hard.
Totally.
Yeah.
And it's readily obvious.
And and let me just bring up the fact that you say Disney takes such big swings.
This movie does is not a few ways we can go with this.
I was going to say this movie I would not call child friendly.
Sure.
Not rated R. I would rate this movie PG 13 for sure.
Yeah.
But you have you have characters drinking beer, babies smoking.
Yeah.
One of the doorman.
He's a big gorilla animated gorilla.
And he says to Eddie Valiant, what is some sort of smart ass?
And Disney had reservations with swearing in a Disney movie.
Yeah.
But they left it in.
And you're like, that is such a product of the 80s.
Yeah, it is.
Well, I mean, even the animation of Jessica Rabbit is not for kids.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
It's it's pretty it's risque.
I mean, it's it's it's it's like old timey, you know, adult film.
So one of my favorite jokes in Roger Rabbit, it's a visual gag.
Yeah.
Eddie Valiant is alone in his office with Jessica and some he he bends down to pick
something up off the floor.
And when he when he's when he stands back up, his head hits Jessica Rabbit's breasts.
Sure.
Yes, because they're so large.
Yes.
Yep.
They're there.
Yep.
They're everywhere.
So, you know, you just have some good old fashioned boob jokes.
You sure do.
I sure do.
You know, wouldn't be made certainly not in a Disney movie today.
Yeah, not on this.
Not.
Yeah.
Maybe a touch.
Well, it was touched on.
But I mean, Disney had their name right.
Yeah.
All over.
And they had Disney like to have Mickey Mouse in a movie like this.
You're not going to see that again.
Right.
I think it makes Mickey cool.
I'm like, I mean, sure.
More so Looney Tunes for sure.
They'll do anything with Looney Tunes.
They don't.
I mean, which is great.
But Mickey Mouse will never ever ever again be in a movie where people are smoking and
drinking beer.
It's not going to happen anymore.
I don't know who said it.
One of the folks on the commentary.
But you know, they had to suss out like what would what's what's Mickey Mouse going to
do?
What and what's Bugs Bunny going to do?
Because they're in that scene where they're free falling with Eddie Valiant.
Sure.
There's supposed to be some hijinks involved, but someone made the determination that, look,
Mickey Mouse doesn't play cruel jokes, but Bugs Bunny does.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And even that like Mickey Mouse was sort of OK with Bugs Bunny basically trying to murder
Eddie Valiant.
Mickey Mouse like, what are you going to do?
It's crazy.
And that's why this movie is so special for so many reasons.
And that being one of them is that, you know, you're not going to see this again.
This is never going to happen again.
Not on this level.
Not on this level for sure.
Oh, man.
OK, so let's get into a little bit moving on.
So we talked about the filming a little bit.
But where this movie really shines, right, is in the post-production in the animation
of the movie.
Yeah, basically the longest process in this movie.
It took three months.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
It took three years.
Oh, I was like, wait, is 14 months for you?
I mean, I'm sure it did.
Maybe longer than that.
Just maybe just the initial animation and maybe is where I got that 14 months.
But suffice to say, the biggest section of this film is, as we said before, almost every
scene has an element of animation.
And what did you mention?
There's 48 minutes total of animation time.
Yeah.
Well, 54 total, 48 that ended up in the film.
And I don't have again, I'm just recalling the commentary, but they pulled in literally,
as they said, like every animator, seeming everybody world, they couldn't get enough
animators to work on this thing.
Yeah, yeah.
I can't remember who it was.
Somebody would put like walk down the halls and just say, draw faster, basically while
they're doing it.
Because I mean, you had to animate every time there's an animated character, you have to
take out that slice of the film of live action, animate on top of that, and then take the
next scene and animate on top of that and then make a composite of both.
The ink and paint department has to get involved.
And then they send all of that to ILM because they wanted these characters to look more
lifelike at the time than actual animated characters were looking currently because
they're playing against live sets and live action props and people.
And so they sent it to ILM who discovered this technique of layering lighting in with
the characters to give them more depth.
Basically, I think they called it two and a half D for the characters.
So you don't need three glasses to watch it, but they still look that they're popping out
of the screen a little bit.
So they would use shadows, highlights, and then tone mats and layer them in with the
characters, which make them look like they are rounded characters and have depth in them.
It's wild.
And then as we said before, because Zemeckis decided to use moving camera shots, they needed
to make sure that all of the characters were level all the time.
They weren't just like bouncing all over the screen with a camera that's not necessarily
a steady shot.
It's moving around as a person would as well.
And so the character has to move around.
When you think of some of these amazing scenes where Roger Abbott's walking down an alley,
his shadow is bouncing all over the place as well.
They had to animate his shadow to make it look realistic, like he's actually on the
streets of LA.
It's really cool.
And I think my favorite part of this whole animation process is that they decided that
the most difficult thing to animate in this movie, though, was Jessica Rabbit's shimmering
dress in the nightclub scene.
Because they didn't like, how do you make an animated character on a live set shimmer
and have this glittery effect to it?
So they used a sandwich bag, scuffed it up with some steel wool and shot light through
it onto the animated cell to make it look like it's popping and shimmering out.
Crazy.
Yeah.
That's one reason why this movie would never be made quite the same way is because the
art of 2D animation is not the standard anymore.
If, I mean, was the Princess and the Frog was the last Disney feature to have traditional
hand drawn animation?
Hand drawn animation at that level, I think, as like a full length movie.
I think they did some CGI, but the movie Wish, the newest movie, Wish did use hand drawn
mixed with CGI.
That's right.
Yeah.
So just the amount of care, just like the amount of, again, work and attention, because
I am, I don't, I'm not well versed enough in animation to like speak to the tools and
the processes, but I just know that you have to hand draw everything and then somebody
else has to hand paint everything.
Every single cell.
And now because we're talking about analog film, you have to layer those cells on top
of film stock, which is your live action.
And it's just like.
And make a composite of that.
And so then film that film, basically.
I can't imagine how I'm not a details person.
I mean, to know me is to know that I do love process, but that would drive me absolutely
insane.
I think that just, I can't, it's not for me at all.
No, farm it out.
That's what I do.
Yeah.
Right.
So Roger Rabbit, maybe the apex of this type of drawn animation.
A hundred percent agree.
Before we talk about the cast and then get into our villain, our main monster of this
episode in this movie, just a fun little fact about the post-production, a phrase was coined
during this movie called bumping the lamp.
I don't know.
Did you hear about this?
I don't know if they talked about it in the.
Yeah.
In the dock.
So there's a scene in the movie where Roger and Eddie go into the back room of the bar,
basically of Dolores's bar to try to get the handcuffs off.
And an overhead lamp is bumped and it starts swinging all over the place.
In initial animation, they were like, it's fine.
Well, this is, this is okay.
And somebody was like, absolutely not.
We are going to add the shadows and the lighting effect of that lamp swinging back and forth.
So if it comes toward the camera, it's going to get brighter.
If it goes away, we're going to get shadows, so on and so forth.
Something that the everyday audience member is not going to know or care about necessarily.
But because they did that and because it was so painstaking and because it was so beautiful
at the end product of it, they now call bumping the lamp when they want to oomph the animation
of something in a Disney movie with that audiences may not care about, but Disney cares about
it.
So they did say bump the lamp on this one, which is pretty cool.
I think that's a fun little thing to have in their back pocket.
Because I think whether or not you notice it outright, I think intuitively, subliminally,
like you do notice those things.
Yeah.
You can't put your finger on it, but you're like, wow, that shot looked really good.
Yeah.
It's because they did X, Y, and Z.
Yeah.
And then for a two minute scene that is not necessarily significant in the movie at all,
but it looks really good.
That's the the shave and a haircut scene.
Yes.
Which I didn't know.
So Judge Doom is looking for Roger, who is hiding behind the wall of a bar.
Yeah.
And we are told it is revealed in the story that tunes cannot resist the the tune, no
pun intended, that goes that that that that that that I had no idea that had a name.
It's called Shave and a Haircut Two Bits.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
In that moment, Roger can't resist.
He's doing all he can.
Steam's coming out of his ears.
And Judge Doom goes shave and a haircut.
Then Roger bursts through the wall and sings two bits.
Mm hmm.
It's so funny.
You can't resist.
You can't resist it.
Can't resist it.
Oh, I love it.
Love it.
OK.
So the cast, it's I mean, I pulled out some of the main characters of the cast, and we
don't talk about them at length necessarily.
We already talked about Bob Hoskins as Eddie Valiant.
What a what a treat.
What an absolute treat in this movie.
I love in that documentary.
He he said that he was so glad he did this movie because it was finally a movie his kids
could watch, which I love because he was not known for doing a kids movie at all.
Yeah.
So that's kind of cool.
We get Joanna Cassidy as Dolores, who what a perfect casting.
She looks like she was born in the 1940s and behaves like she just fits in so well.
Such a good actor.
We get Charles Fleischer as Roger Rabbit, who also voiced Benny the Cab, who also voiced
Greasy and Psycho, two of the weasels in the movie.
So a lot of heavy lifting on Charles Fleischer's part.
Yeah.
Pretty, pretty wild.
A fun fact about Charles Fleischer is that he and a lot of people gave him some crap
for this, but I would argue that it probably bettered the movie.
He would be on set on days that Eddie Valiant, Bob Hoskins was filming with Roger Rabbit
and he would insist on wearing a Roger Rabbit costume on the side of the set and voicing
the character for Bob Hoskins to react to.
So Bob sort of knew what the character was going to look like and he knew what he was
acting against.
And so they were kind of scene partners, even though he wasn't even on on the set.
And sometimes it sounds like if the audio was good enough, they would use that audio
instead of having him go into the studio to do it.
So I mean, I'm sure it saved them a little bit of time and money, but a problem persisted
where he would sometimes ad lib some some lines for Roger Rabbit.
And so the animators had to go, well, that's not what we animated.
So we have to do something completely different now because he said a different line in what
they used for the scene.
So cause some problems.
But I mean, you know, everything was for the better, I guess.
I did.
I did read that retakes with this film weren't possible because of the nature of their post
production.
All the animation came after.
So they had to work with literally what they had.
Yep.
What the studio gave them.
They were like, OK, here's what we got.
No backseats on this one.
Pretty crazy.
Boy.
Pretty, pretty crazy.
OK, so moving on, we have then Stubby Kay, an old vaudeville actor playing Marvin Acme,
Kathleen Turner as Jessica Rabbit, who to this day is still uncredited as the role of
Jessica Rabbit.
But iconic, iconic character.
And then we have Christopher Lloyd as Judge Doom.
Don't don't.
Boy, boy.
Christopher Lloyd from Robert Zemeckis is back to the future.
Yeah.
Zemeckis Zemeckis Brown, obviously, he brings such menace to this role.
And I read that he did not.
It was a choice to not blink as a character.
I didn't notice that in.
But this is a maybe an example of bumping the light where nobody would notice or care
if he blinked.
But he's as an actor said, no, the choice is made.
I'm not going to blink.
Toons wouldn't blink.
Because that's the big reveal that Judge Doom is actually a tune.
Yeah.
But in hindsight, it adds a lot to the character.
100 percent.
Yeah, it definitely makes him a lot creepier than was necessary maybe for this role.
OK, so I mean, this is your real house.
How does how does Judge Doom stack up for you on a villain and or a monster character
for a movie?
Well, Judge Doom as a monster, quote unquote, is so villainous.
So again, full menace.
And he he cuts such a imposing figure to.
Yeah.
All he's beady eyed.
He's like a vulture.
And they intentionally animated him.
They didn't animate him.
But the makeup I think they did in law.
Did they elongate his nose with makeup?
Or if they didn't, that was that was a an idea at one point.
I can't remember now.
I'd have to go back and really look at it.
But I mean, they do eventually animate features of him at the end of the movie, obviously.
But yeah.
Right.
And then at the end, when he turns, he reveals his tune self.
He has these blazing red eyes, just hellfire.
Yeah.
It's so good.
It's it's wonderful.
It's wonderful.
I think I feel like they shot him at an angle that made him look more tall.
Or I mean, he Christopher was already kind of a tall person, but to make him look more
menacing that he would be like sort of looming over everybody at all times, which is really
cool.
So so Judge Doom is clearly a villainous monster.
And I'd like to talk about what were the creators doing with this character?
Is he a sympathetic monster or is he all evil?
But I think in general, the the tunes of this world like me, I mean, they they are strange
beasts in this world for sure.
I mean, I'm not going to call them monsters per se, but they they are not human.
And I think one layer to who framed Roger Rabbit is how human beings and tunes coexist.
Yeah.
And there's a clear hierarchy and it's not a reach to to read into a segregation going
on here that mirrors real world social politics, especially in the 1940s.
So that's one of the most fascinating parts about this movie as well.
Yeah, it's an interesting I feel like we could peel that onion for a long time and we certainly
don't have the time to really get into all of that.
But yeah, there is an interesting parallel of segregation a little bit that the tunes
are sort of othered from the humans that they are treated as.
They're just the entertainment there and and or nightclub workers, but they can't actually
go to the clubs that they work at basically.
And so there's definitely a parallel there.
And they have their own section of town.
Yeah, their own exactly their own ghetto, if you will.
Yeah.
Toon town toon town.
Yeah, which when you when the when Eddie goes into toon town, he's just surrounded by chaos
because yeah, what would a city look like completely run by loony characters?
It's just a madhouse.
Yeah, but they are still separate from the rest of L.A.
Yeah, very much that.
And then when you learn that Judge Doom, who has been erasing tunes this entire time during
the movie, is also a tune.
It adds this whole layer of like, oh, man, this is this is the stuff of nightmares here.
Here's a guy who's basically fully getting rid of major characters in in animation history.
Basically is his goal where he actually is a tune himself.
But he has to disguise himself as a human for anyone to take him seriously or give him
any power in the world, because he actually is sort of the the judge of the entire city
of L.A. and town basically.
So it's a it's a it's a big package to unravel this.
And the book goes into it a little bit, too.
Yeah.
With they're called humanoid tunes like Jessica Rabbit, and they are able to quote ass as
humans, which when you apply it to, you know, race and absolutely.
And other minorities and, you know, who are you in a certain given situation?
You know, code switching, if you will.
Yeah.
And you just think like in the book is Jessica Rabbit.
What does she have to do to be successful in the movie?
It's Judge Doom.
Like he maybe that's when where he can be a little sympathetic because as as evil as
he is, what has what in his life in society systemically has caused him to make these
choices.
Interesting.
Like you're getting to the psyche of Judge Doom.
I like this.
But but he's also wrong, though.
But he's also a monster.
Yeah.
In your notes, Patrick, you mentioned something about, you know, Nazi allegories.
Yeah.
And it's just, you know, he's turning on his own people, you know, the tunes liquidating
them.
You know, very I think it is.
But I I read I think you could read Nazi impressions there, especially in Dune's wardrobe.
He wears all black.
It's very in a trench coat, very SS Gestapo.
Yeah.
And I don't yeah, I don't I don't know that we can necessarily like make a comparison
of the tunes and what happened in Nazi Germany.
But there's definitely an influence happening there with specifically this character of
Judge Doom.
In fact, so much that like dip, which is what the like turpentine basically gets rid of
animation was originally going to be called the final solution, which is pretty dark.
Very, very dark.
Yeah.
I will feel gross saying that out loud.
But I mean, it's just it's out there.
That's what they were.
That'd be yeah.
That would be a bit much, a bit much, a bit much.
But there are definitely influences of sort of the Gestapo within Judge Doom himself,
which is a pretty wild, a pretty bold swing for a movie like Who Framed Roger Rabbit to
have something that dark and insidious inside of it.
It's a good word insidious.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yes.
Sometimes sometimes.
So I guess my question to you, then, is like overall, like is this is this a monster in
our how does this compare to other monsters in other monster movies for this character?
Obviously not all monsters are villains and not all villains are monsters.
But here we have a villain who is monstrous at the very least.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think Judge Doom is memorable for a reason.
I think Judge Doom, certainly in the Disney Rogues Gallery, is among I mean, I put him
up with Ursula from The Little Mermaid.
Just this wild devilish character.
Yeah.
It's interesting, though, like Roger Rabbit.
I totally obviously am including it under the Camp Kaiju umbrella.
Yeah.
I will admit, though, and definitions of what Kaiju mean and what strange beasts mean, I
clearly take a lot of liberties with that definition.
Sure.
And in the rules I have made for myself, there's a difference between a monster movie and monsters
in a fantasy movie.
Roger Rabbit does strike me as a bit more of a fantasy movie, maybe along the lines
of other fantasy movies, right, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, like there are monsters
in those movies.
I'm not going to talk about those on Camp Kaiju because those monsters are more accepted
in the worlds in which they take place.
Interesting.
OK, got you.
So are the tunes in this movie.
It's just like tunes aren't strange.
They just right there.
They are what they are.
They're quite judge.
Doom takes it to another level.
He is a strange tune.
He breaks the mold.
He is a human until he's not.
Yeah.
And that that is pretty out there.
And I would I would call him a legitimate monster, if you will.
I like that he's sort of otherworldly in both worlds of humans and tunes.
Exactly.
Interesting.
I like that.
And he's on many lists.
I know that, again, villains aren't monsters and monsters aren't villains, but they do
sometimes slam into each other on many lists of one of the scariest characters in cinematic
history.
Not just, you know, not just for a Disney movie.
Like he's a scary, a scary mama jamma.
You know, I'm I hadn't seen this movie for over 20 years and I still recalled the image
of him with eyes.
Oh, my God.
And when he gets run over by the steamroller and then inflates himself again and it's crazy.
It's horrifying.
It's something that a seven year old shouldn't be looking at.
He's being crushed so realistically.
Yeah.
The bones are crunching and he's screaming.
Yeah.
And when he this is when he animates himself, he like picks himself up off the floor.
He suddenly becomes a 2D character.
It is nightmare fuel.
Yeah.
His eyeballs pop out.
It's crazy.
It's not good.
It's.
But it's wonderful, though.
It's also wonderful.
Amazing.
All right.
So clearly we're big fans of this movie.
Like we are going on and on and on longer than we probably should for our listeners
have stopped listening to us by now.
But we're not alone in loving this movie.
As we said, it was released on June 22nd, 1988.
It grossed eleven million dollars in its opening weekend.
It was first place in the box office.
And at the time, as I think we said earlier on, it was Disney's biggest opening weekend
ever in history of Disney.
Biggest opening weekend.
It would eventually go on to gross three hundred and fifty one million worldwide, which made
it at the time the 20th highest grossing film of all time.
I mean, I mean, these are amazing numbers.
So it's nice to say they gambled and it paid off for them because it brought in so much
revenue, so much fandom of Disney.
People who weren't fans of Disney were watching this movie and brought them into the Disney
fold, which is which is pretty great.
It then went on to win Academy Awards for best film editing, best sound effects, editing
best visual effects, editing, and then a special achievement award for Richard Williams, the
animation director.
So success, major success.
Who framed Roger Rabbit, I would say.
Yeah, 100 percent.
The fact that it's never been remade, that it doesn't have a sequel, that nothing again
like what has come since Space Jam, Looney Tunes back in action.
Yeah.
And what was the one you had mentioned?
You cool world.
Cool world.
Yeah.
And you would know that existed.
Look it up, give it a watch, maybe enjoy a gummy of some kind.
Your choice on that one.
And look at it.
It's not a great movie.
It's not.
None of those movies are great.
Objective.
100 percent.
No, and didn't do what who framed Roger Rabbit did.
And again, we're not saying that who framed Roger Rabbit was the first one to do to mix
animation and live action.
There were many, many before it, like you said, Mary Poppins, Bedknobs and Broomsticks,
Anchors Away.
But they changed the game for how this worked.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
All right.
So I mean, any final thoughts on who framed Roger Rabbit?
Do you feel like, well, now that we have a podcast that's Disney and monsters, like does
this fit into one category better than the other or is it a nice mix or what do you think?
I think this one's a nice mix, actually, because I would say it's a Disney, more of a Disney
movie than a monster movie.
But this doesn't even feel like a Disney movie.
Yeah, I know.
It does it.
Yeah.
It just it feels like its own beautiful little unicorn of a film.
Yeah.
And what I you know, what we ask on Camp Kaiju is does this stand the test of time?
So for for Gaze to the D listeners, for you all, you for all you tweedles out there, you're
going to get you're going to get the Camp Kaiju treatment here.
I love it.
On each episode, we don't give us rating at, you know, X, you know, five stars out of 10
or whatever.
No, we'd like to just ask, does it stand the test of time?
Is it worth watching in your spare time?
And we have four different ratings here.
So our lowest rating is it's not worth revisiting.
It definitely does not stand the test of time.
Moving on, we have it may be historically significant or just fun, but it doesn't stand
the test of time.
We have there may be some antiquated moments, but overall, it's great.
And it does stand the test of time.
And finally, we have it is a timeless classic.
Nothing wrong with it.
It stands the test of time.
Yeah.
How do you feel about it?
100% stands the test of time.
And I think will stand the test of time for years to come.
I mean, I have to believe that there are people out there making movies today who go back
to who frame Roger Rabbit as a reference of of what to do.
Do you know?
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, story wise, character wise, script wise, cast production, everything involved,
I think top notch.
Still I watched this movie, revisited again this morning, in fact, just in preparation.
And it's just it blows you away.
It's so good.
And it's so visually appealing.
And I still have questions about how they did some stuff in the right.
So yeah, I agree.
It's a timeless classic.
It stands the test of time.
The animation is exquisite.
The performances, everyone buys into it.
And Robert Zemeckis does some really nice work as a director on this film.
There's one shot which I loved in the moment.
Then it reading in hindsight, I was like, yeah, I appreciate that.
There's like a tracking shot of Eddie Valiant in his office and the camera moves over miscellaneous
objects on Eddie's desk.
And this is when we get like through the visual medium of film, we understand Eddie's backstory.
There's newspaper clippings about how his brother, who was his partner detective, was
killed by a tune.
So this is a hang up Eddie's working through over the course of the movie, why he doesn't
trust tunes, why he doesn't trust Roger Rabbit.
And it's just like touches like that, that Zemeckis brings to the film.
Yeah, I love that.
It offers something for if you love film, like the history of film, filmmaking, film
studies, this movie offers you so much to chew on.
Definitely.
Well said, well said.
Yeah.
Just to recap, one little thing that you said in there, I love that they pulled that out,
that Zemeckis' direction, he has these high, high highs, and then he quiets the film down
ever so slightly every once in a while, even if it's a cartoon character doing something
really subtle and quiet and lovely, it's the stillness that then allows you to go to Toontown
basically.
Right, right.
You know, this movie, and I hadn't seen the latest Space Jam with LeBron James, but a
critique I was reading was that it was so high octane the whole time.
It starts and ends at 100.
It just keeps going.
Yeah, and it just, people were just turned off by the excessive noise of the movie.
But Roger Rabbit doesn't do that.
Zemeckis doesn't do that.
He knows how to play with levels.
Yeah.
And he allows you to breathe, and it's really nice.
It is.
It's great.
All right, well, we have a winner.
I love that we did this for our first episode, a movie that we both really appreciate for
many different reasons.
And I hope that our listeners appreciate as well.
But if not, that's fine too.
But let us know.
Let us know your thoughts on this movie.
Did you love it?
What were your thoughts on it?
What's your history with it?
Does it stand the test of time for you as well to take a page out of Camp Kaiju's book?
How can they get a hold?
If they want to reach out to your podcast to give some feedback, how do they do that,
Vincent?
All right, so I'm going to answer that question, then I'm going to ask you the same thing.
Great.
Okay.
So follow Camp Kaiju Monster Movie podcast wherever you podcast.
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, not X, not TikTok, but pretty much everywhere
else.
Go ahead.
You can just leave us a comment.
I will find it.
You can email us campkaiju at gmail.com.
I'm really good at getting back to you.
If you don't like anything that me and Patrick are doing here, let us know.
Everything is set in stone.
And again, I just love talking about movies with anybody.
So reach out, let us know what you'd like us to cover on magic and monsters.
And stay tuned on Camp Kaiju.
Our next episode will be Godzilla and Kong, the new empire.
So that'll be two weeks from today.
Patrick, you're on that episode.
We can't get enough of you.
I am.
Oh, yeah, I am.
Oh, my God.
I'm just kidding.
I didn't sign any release forms for that, but I don't know about that.
OK.
So what's coming up on Gaze Do The D and where can Camp Kaiju listeners find more information
about you?
Great question.
So all of the same platforms, just look up Gaze Do The D and you will find us on wherever
you listen to your favorite podcast.
You can find us on Instagram at GDTD podcast, where we are.
Feel free to comment on anything there and slide into our DMs if you have questions for
us or you have feedback for this episode on our side of it.
Or you can find us on email at info at gaze do the D dot com info at gaze the D dot com.
Send us an email, send us a voice memo, whatever you have for us.
What's coming up next?
Who can say?
Because we don't really know when this episode is going to drop.
So who's to know?
Another episode, we come up biweekly, so look for us every other week.
We usually drop them on Sundays at 6 p.m. every other week.
All right, cool.
And then what's up next on Magic and Monsters?
Who can say?
We don't know, but it will be Halloween themed, I'm sure.
I can think of a few.
I mean, Hocus Pocus, Nightmare Before Christmas.
Yeah, there's lots out there.
Frankenweenie.
I don't know.
Frankenweenie, even Watcher in the Woods.
Who knows?
It's a scary movie.
So we'll put our heads together and we will look out for listener feedback as well.
Yes, please, please let us know.
Thanks for listening, everybody.
We really appreciate all of you, the patrons on both sides of our Patreon worlds.
We love you.
Thank you for supporting us.
We have a few crossover Patreon members, I believe.
So that's amazing to know.
And let me just shout out, sorry.
Jason, Chris, Sean, our anonymous patron, and Peggy for your support.
Magic and Monsters is completely 100% because of your support, I have bandwidth to do other
fun side projects like this with Patrick.
Yes, yes.
And same for all of our lovely Patreon members over at Gaze Do The D. We love and support
you and thank you for supporting us.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, with that, we'll see you next time, everybody.
I don't know, insert cute tagline here.
We don't really have one yet.
Maybe send us one.
Send us one, listeners.
Just do the work for us.
Yes, please.
We're tired.
All right.
Bye, everybody.