WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone. So today's a really different Leadership

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Journeys episode. So Nick, the producer, and

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I, the ginger wizard. Hello. Is here with me

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in my kitchen. The birds are singing, the sun

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is out. And we're here to do a behind the scenes

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take on this whole podcast journey. And I think

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when I started this out, I was... I had this

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ambition. I think I wanted to help other women.

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I wanted to particularly help younger women to

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learn from those who'd been there and done it.

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But oh my gosh, Nick, these women, they're in

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my head now. And even with this podcast, I've

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had real like highs. of it where I've really

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enjoyed the episodes and we've had really good

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feedback and it's been brilliant. And then I've

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had real anxiety about like, what am I doing?

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Why am I doing it? It takes up so much time and

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is it going to achieve anything? And then these

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women are in my head going, well, you can't stop.

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Stopping isn't the answer. You have to do it

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now. So I suppose that's quite an interesting

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thing I wasn't expecting. Are they in your head?

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To a certain degree, yeah. I mean, you know,

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a lot of the stories that we've heard do stick

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with you. And I think, especially as a bloke,

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and I'm very aware and privileged, actually,

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that I'm the only fella to appear on this podcast.

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Yes. Aren't I? Yeah. And I think from my point

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of view, although, you know, I would very much

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see myself as an ally, I've learned a lot of

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things that I didn't even consider before from

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these women. And I think a lot of their stories

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have stuck with me, definitely. What have you

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learned then, do you think? What have been the

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takeaways from a male point of view? There's

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been so much. I think some of the struggles that

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we've heard about, and from a journalistic point

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of view, that's quite kind of lazy journalism,

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isn't it? Because you kind of expect there to

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be barriers. I think the interesting thing...

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I've learned, especially from some of them, is

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that actually being a woman wasn't a barrier,

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but something else about them was. For example,

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from Simone, who had an issue because she was

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Northern. Yes. You know, and being a female in

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the Navy was never a thing. And I think that's

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kind of eye -opening because although obviously

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some of the guests have... come up against it

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because they are female. Zoe, most notably. Yes,

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has to move in a courtroom because that's where

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the solicitors sit. Yeah. You know, and that's

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just crackers, isn't it? It's mad. But I think

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I've learned a lot of things I didn't expect

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to learn from the point of view that it's not

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just being female. There are other things at

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play there. And it's just genuinely really, really

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eye -opening. Yeah. And I think at what point

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do you think you thought, oh, this this podcast

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has got legs? Because I think I went into it

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with a big hope that I would have something interesting

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to bring to listeners. And then you always hope

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that you always hope that. And then but I think

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it was your reaction to a couple of the initial

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interviews that really gave me that confidence

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because you were saying, oh, my goodness, that

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was fascinating. And that. that almost like the

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psychology of what was going on inside the minds

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of these women was really intriguing. And you

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were the one that went, this is good, more of

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that, I think. And you kind of guided me, which

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was really helpful. I think it was the first

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one we recorded, which is actually episode four.

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Catherine, Dr. Catherine Scott. Is that four?

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Yes. Don't want to get it wrong. I'm the person

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that uploaded it. I can't remember. Episode four

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or five, the one with Catherine. Dr Catherine

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Scott. And it was the first one we did. It was

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the summertime last year, wasn't it? Yeah. 2024.

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And I sat there listening and I've never told

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you this. I sat there and I thought, crikey,

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Leona's going on a bit here. And it suddenly

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clicked there and then that actually you doing

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your kind of... I call it psych talk around the

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guests was actually what the podcast was. You

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know, this isn't a, this is your life type style

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thing where we get to know the person a little

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bit more. This is you kind of lifting the bonnet

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of their brain and having a good look in there

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and seeing what's going on. And it was that,

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that suddenly I thought, Oh, cause we talked

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a bit beforehand and we, chucked ideas around

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and stuff. But it was that moment where I just

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thought, that's what this podcast is. That's

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exactly what this podcast is. Yeah. It's a furcle

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in people's heads. Yeah. And I hadn't realised

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that that was, it's making me smile because I

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know my family will just really chuckle at you

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thinking, oh my God, Leona's just going on a

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bit. Because I think that is a bit of a character

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trait. Right. Yeah. Okay. Good for podcasting.

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I don't think I did that kind of tactically or

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with any level of intellect, perhaps. I think

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that's just the way I communicate. But in this

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scenario, it seemed to have worked. But it did.

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And you've done it ever since. And I think I

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come from a radio background. And when a presenter

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goes off on one doing something like that, especially

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in a pre -recorded interview, you're like, get

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rid of that. Don't care. Nine out of ten times.

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But it suddenly became very, very apparent that

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that's what your USP is, is because you can do

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this. And actually, we're there to kind of circle

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with you. Yeah. and see what you can pick up.

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And I've no doubt that people will be listening

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and hearing things that I missed, you know, like

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insights or little comments that people make

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that give you like a hint at how they handled

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something or how they thought about something.

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And once you start listening for meaning that

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way, I think it's a really cool kind of skill

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to have. I do try and edit those bits out, Leona.

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If I think, oh gosh, she's missed that, I get

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rid of them. Yeah, thanks. So let's have a look.

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So we thought it would be nice to give a bit

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of insight into, I suppose, some of the common

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things that we've heard from these women, common

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things that the things that are in my head. that

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are important for success or overcoming adversity,

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but also a bit of the behind the scenes kind

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of chaos. I mean, we've been to some places,

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haven't we? Oh my gosh. We've been to Liverpool.

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Yeah. We've recorded in London, Birmingham. Yeah.

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The middle of Leeds, obviously. On a houseboat.

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On a houseboat, yeah. Guiseley. Guiseley, we

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have been to Guiseley. And yeah, it's all the

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hotspots. Basically, we've been. And because

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you have a mobile studio, what I've learned as

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a psychologist, post -COVID actually, was that

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the whole virtual world was a real asset for

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having any kind of coaching discussion. Because

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instead of going into someone's work environment

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where they're a bit kind of formal and... they're

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going off into a room with someone to have a

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chat about their career. They're at home with

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their feet up, having a cup of tea. I'm at my

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home, having a cup of tea. And you get into things

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so much quicker. So I think the fact that we

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were able to go into their homes, I mean, but

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we have been a little bit like the Phil and Kirsty

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of podcasting, haven't we? Because we've enjoyed

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it. We're really bad because we go into a place

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and we're like, oh, I love that picture. Where

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do you get it? And instantly. We're commenting

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on somebody's house, which I always think that,

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Nick, this is dangerous territory. But I think

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we're very good. Any of our guests listening

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that are thinking, oh, my gosh, what did they

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say about my house? Honestly, we're just looking

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for things that we can steal in terms of great

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ideas and interior design hacks, aren't we? That's

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what we're looking at. Interestingly, Simone

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on a barge in the middle of Liverpool has the

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same bathroom fixings. as I do in my house in

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the middle of Leeds. Wowzers. I couldn't believe

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it. I did actually tell her as well. She was

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not really... She wasn't impressed. She didn't

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want to engage in that conversation. Bless her.

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I don't, you know, completely see why. When we

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went to see Zoe Gascoigne in HMRC, I mean, walking

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into HMRC, like the tax office, I think you always

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feel like they're going to get you. They're going

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to scan you and they're going to go... Oh, hang

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on a minute. What was with this return in 2007?

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Yes. You know, somehow they'll extract. Some

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biometrics, like scanning our eyeballs. Exactly.

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Yeah, definitely. So that was a bit nerve -wracking.

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I think we were both kind of walking around on

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eggshells. But then she showed us all of these

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really cool rooms in this big, glamorous corridor

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where they had all of the... kind of oldie -worldie

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setups of... Yeah, that place was incredible

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because I just assumed it would be in a 60s building,

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which was a bit leaky, a bit smelly maybe, in

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the middle of Liverpool. But it wasn't. I mean,

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it was a grand, what, 1600s, 1700s kind of building?

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Yeah. With an amazing... Archie kind of roof

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that was really ornate. I mean, the whole place,

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I mean, it felt a bit MI5 -ish. Yeah, it did.

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Didn't it? It did. I mean, I've never been into

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MI5. But that's how you imagine it from the Bond

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movies. Yes. And I think that fits with Zoe because

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she was really vibrant and different compared

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to how you imagine someone who works for the

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tax office. So I think that whole day was really

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cool. It was a great day. We were in Liverpool,

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just on HMRC, something that's just reminded

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me. I don't know why. The urinals were amazing

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in there. Were they? Yeah. Well, I can't really

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comment. Well, you didn't go in, obviously. Government

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building. They would have shut you down. Yes.

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Right away. But no, have you ever been into like

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a really old Victorian pub? Oh, yes. And again,

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you won't have seen these, but they tend to have

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like the really old ones tend to have the original

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urinals there, which had like just like a huge

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piece of porcelain moulded against the wall.

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And it was like that in there. Amazing urinals.

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Wow. Very clean as well. Well, you'd hope so.

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Yeah, I mean, attention to detail is what we

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expect of our tax officers, I think. Exactly.

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And also, I was going to make a joke about taking

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the... But I'm not going to. It's not necessary.

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It's not necessary, is it? So, well, let's have

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a little look at some of the kind of key themes,

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because I think there's three big things that

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have really struck me that these women have in

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common. And so it'd be quite good to just highlight

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those. And then maybe we can give a little bit

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of an insight into the women themselves as we

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go through. Because the first thing that's really

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struck me about. So I anticipated before we started

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that they were all going to tell me that they'd

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never really planned to end up where they were.

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It had been a really kind of interesting and

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changeable route. And that was going to be the

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message of it, I suppose, that it doesn't matter

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where you are now because you can navigate your

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way to a better place. I thought that was going

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to be one of the key takeaways. But actually,

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that's a smaller part of what I've heard from

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them. I think the first thing that's really struck

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me is that all of these women have this really

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strong sense of purpose. Like they really are

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trying to do something meaningful. And that in

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some cases, like Lisa Shepard, who was our first

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episode, she just wanted to create an environment

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where working mums could have meaningful jobs

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around the school run. Yeah, and it's a huge

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problem for most women. And then it begs the

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question, why is it just the women? Yes. Doesn't

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it? Yeah. She told that story, didn't she, about

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her business partner in her previous job had

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turned up late one day and being chastised for

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it. Yeah. But she at the time had two young children,

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didn't have a car, had been taking them to school

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on the bus and then taking public transport into

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work. And so by the time she arrived at work

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at five past nine or whatever, she'd already

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done like two hours. of quite stressful activity.

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And there's no acknowledgement of that. So that

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really meant something to Lisa, that she wanted

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to kind of stop that nonsense and do it differently.

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And she talked about having, you know, business

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gurus telling her she was doing the wrong thing

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and it would never work. And I mean, she's testament,

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her and Saskia are, to the fact that... that

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person was talking nonsense probably. But then

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we get that other side of the purpose where it's

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actually trying to kind of make an impact on

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bigger things in the world. So someone that really

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sticks in my mind is Siobhan Blake with that,

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where, you know, she's the chief crown prosecutor

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for violent crimes against women and girls. And

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her sense of purpose was really strong, wasn't

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it? I found that fascinating because in a way,

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Walking into that chat was very much what I assumed

00:13:39.769 --> 00:13:41.850
the HMRC one would be like. It was very kind

00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:45.289
of like bland government building, quite dowdy,

00:13:45.289 --> 00:13:48.029
not really had much money spent on it. In fact,

00:13:48.070 --> 00:13:51.990
I think the CPS were the only... It was a huge

00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:55.269
high -rise building in the middle of Birmingham.

00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:59.490
Yes. And I think the CPS were the only firm in

00:13:59.490 --> 00:14:01.870
there. Maybe, yeah. I think they were. By the

00:14:01.870 --> 00:14:03.549
way, we should just point out your dog snoring.

00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.360
Oh, yeah. I do have a beagle. So apologies for

00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:10.519
that. She spends her time either snoring or stealing

00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:13.779
food. They're the only two activities of a beagle.

00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:16.840
I just thought we better mention that. They didn't

00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.039
think it was me. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, back

00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:25.700
to the CPS and Siobhan. And I don't know her

00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:28.340
and I didn't know quite what to expect. But the

00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:32.360
story she told, the journey that she'd been on.

00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:37.629
Just how she copes working in that environment

00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:41.210
where bad things are going on and there are awful

00:14:41.210 --> 00:14:43.769
stories, there are awful things happening to

00:14:43.769 --> 00:14:48.909
normal, nice people and how she deals with that.

00:14:49.009 --> 00:14:52.190
And that was pretty incredible to hear. Yeah.

00:14:52.389 --> 00:14:54.750
And I think that's why I wanted to speak to her

00:14:54.750 --> 00:14:56.710
because I've worked with Siobhan for a number

00:14:56.710 --> 00:14:58.649
of years. So she's one of the guests that I actually

00:14:58.649 --> 00:15:02.090
do know from my other career as a psychologist.

00:15:03.329 --> 00:15:06.529
And I just have always looked at her from afar

00:15:06.529 --> 00:15:09.929
and thought, how do you stay sane in this work?

00:15:10.330 --> 00:15:12.909
And so it was a real opportunity to ask that

00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:15.690
question because I was personally really intrigued.

00:15:16.029 --> 00:15:19.730
And her answer made a lot of sense. Let's have

00:15:19.730 --> 00:15:21.950
a listen to what she said about why she does.

00:15:22.750 --> 00:15:26.070
Terrible things happen in the world and you are

00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:29.950
profoundly aware of that. And when your day job

00:15:29.950 --> 00:15:34.429
is to run towards some of those really bad things,

00:15:34.570 --> 00:15:37.169
you have to feel you're doing that with a sense

00:15:37.169 --> 00:15:42.110
of purpose, I think. And so what I tried to do

00:15:42.110 --> 00:15:46.539
was... always do the job, whatever that job was,

00:15:46.620 --> 00:15:50.039
as well as I possibly could. And I suppose it

00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:53.539
goes back to that sense of justice. And I felt

00:15:53.539 --> 00:15:56.740
like I could play a very small part in hopefully

00:15:56.740 --> 00:16:01.220
balancing up that sense of justice. And I've

00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:05.539
always tried to make sure that I've reminded

00:16:05.539 --> 00:16:08.960
myself that what I do in my day job is a very,

00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.620
very concentrated. vision of the world out there.

00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.779
And there are lots and lots and lots of people

00:16:16.779 --> 00:16:20.600
out there who will do miraculous things every

00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.220
day to help each other. And the strange thing

00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:26.559
about criminal law is you really do see both

00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.480
the best and the worst sides of the human condition

00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:34.700
on your desk every single day. I can genuinely

00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:40.580
say I have seen acts of incredible heroism undertaken

00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:44.559
by Just people who got up that morning to go

00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:47.539
about a very normal life and they just happened

00:16:47.539 --> 00:16:51.659
to end up in a situation where bad things were

00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:54.879
happening and their instinct was to help and

00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.960
support and protect. And I find that quite incredible.

00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.039
And that may be when you look at it in the round,

00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:06.759
you try and focus on the wonderful things you

00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.539
see about the human condition whilst thinking

00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:14.359
you are going to help. maybe hopefully regain

00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.059
the balance as far as the really awful things

00:17:17.059 --> 00:17:19.559
that you see. I suppose it gives you a level

00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:23.720
of realism about how deeply cruel people can

00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:28.579
be to each other. But on the other side, you

00:17:28.579 --> 00:17:31.640
do see people do remarkable things and you see

00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:36.519
people survive incredibly negative experiences

00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.390
and traumatic experiences and go on to... build

00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:47.390
from that truly amazing either lives as individuals

00:17:47.390 --> 00:17:51.769
or they take that experience and they channel

00:17:51.769 --> 00:17:54.990
it into something positive. So I suppose it is

00:17:54.990 --> 00:17:57.630
just trying to see the positives in it and also

00:17:57.630 --> 00:18:02.390
constantly keeping a real focus on the fact that

00:18:02.390 --> 00:18:07.730
hopefully I can. assist and support and create

00:18:07.730 --> 00:18:10.049
a little bit of balance when these things do

00:18:10.049 --> 00:18:13.950
happen. So I'm contributing something. What a

00:18:13.950 --> 00:18:16.250
perspective that is. It's ace, isn't it? And

00:18:16.250 --> 00:18:19.069
I think, using the word ace there, just showing

00:18:19.069 --> 00:18:22.349
my age. Yeah, it is. It's really ace. I think

00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:25.890
that whole combination of I'm doing something

00:18:25.890 --> 00:18:28.029
where I feel like I'm making a difference. I

00:18:28.029 --> 00:18:30.230
think that's a real fuel that I heard in so many

00:18:30.230 --> 00:18:32.740
of the women. I think a lot of the things that

00:18:32.740 --> 00:18:35.099
they do, the pursuits they have, whether they're

00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:38.079
in business or making a difference to justice

00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:42.240
or saving lives in the charity people that we've

00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.279
spoken to or playing cricket for the country

00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.380
or they were escaping the war in the Ukraine,

00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:51.960
this need to do something that matters to them

00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.539
is like a fuel. And so I think that's a really

00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:57.240
core part that I've learned from them, that if

00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.319
you're going to do something, it's probably going

00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:01.960
to be hard. So it has to really mean something

00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.099
to you in order to get you through the difficult

00:19:04.099 --> 00:19:07.339
moments and the hard days. And then she talks

00:19:07.339 --> 00:19:09.720
about that positive thinking, which is a tactic

00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:11.500
for getting through the hard days, isn't it?

00:19:11.539 --> 00:19:15.019
So she's immersed in all of this. What does she

00:19:15.019 --> 00:19:18.319
say? How cruel people can be to each other. But

00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.440
then she is looking, actively looking for the

00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:23.960
moments of heroism and the moments of kindness.

00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:34.019
thoughtful or saves a life or you know serves

00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:37.740
justice and that's cool yeah i mean i guess it's

00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.559
a bit like alan partridge of course i was thinking

00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.640
the same in that do you remember that where um

00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:45.960
something bad happened to him and he says lynn

00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.849
i've had a negative i need Two more positives,

00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:52.369
one just to get me back to square one and one

00:19:52.369 --> 00:19:55.390
just so I've got a positive, you know. But in

00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:58.730
a way, it's that, you know, you cling on to the

00:19:58.730 --> 00:20:01.730
good stuff because you do know that will get

00:20:01.730 --> 00:20:04.269
you through. And I suppose in a way, we kind

00:20:04.269 --> 00:20:06.829
of all experienced that in some way during COVID,

00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:09.210
didn't we? Because it was all unsettling, what's

00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:12.309
going on? You know, we were all having that kind

00:20:12.309 --> 00:20:15.690
of, oh, my word, this is awful kind of experience.

00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:18.539
But we all clung on to the, well, at least, the

00:20:18.539 --> 00:20:20.240
sun's out it was lovely wasn't it do you remember

00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.579
um or look at this i managed to get some beer

00:20:24.579 --> 00:20:28.720
mail order hooray um kind of thing and i you

00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.420
know obviously very different to that and i'm

00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.519
making light of it and i i don't mean to in a

00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.140
in an awful way but i guess it it's that isn't

00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:39.900
it and and crikey she must have to do that because

00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:42.680
some of the stuff that must turn up on her desk

00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:47.339
must be Yeah, awful. And then I think that, like

00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:51.140
you say, we've all experienced that COVID adversity.

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.220
And probably the people that fared best mentally,

00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:57.440
mental health wise, are the ones that were able

00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.460
to find some positives in that. I think it is

00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:03.900
that need to balance the bad with the good. And

00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:05.480
look at who would have thought Alan Partridge

00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:07.660
would... be some great psychological philosopher

00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:09.720
but there you go there you go you see that's

00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.880
the partridge power yeah isn't it um but it feeds

00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.420
into the next thing so that sense of purpose

00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.460
really strong in all of them and then the next

00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:19.099
thing and this is the bit the bit that's in my

00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:23.039
head i think is that you kind of look at people

00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.039
who have achieved something and i think it's

00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.859
really easy to think it's been easy for them.

00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.980
Like they had some special route that they were

00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:35.079
able to take that wasn't open to the rest of

00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.839
us, or they had some special skills or talents

00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.920
that made them different and better. And that

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.299
they had a confidence to do it and go for it.

00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:48.700
But what I'm hearing is that that's not the way

00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:52.039
round it works. That these women all talked about

00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:58.529
the fear and how scary it was. to step into opportunities

00:21:58.529 --> 00:22:01.990
or do something novel and new. They were all

00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:04.549
feeling the same emotions as everyone else. I

00:22:04.549 --> 00:22:07.150
think the difference is they see that courage

00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:11.630
comes before confidence. Yeah, I see what you're

00:22:11.630 --> 00:22:15.410
saying there. Yeah. And that's kind of, I'm disappointed

00:22:15.410 --> 00:22:17.150
with myself that I hadn't spotted that earlier,

00:22:17.269 --> 00:22:19.869
if I'm honest, because I think, you know, in

00:22:19.869 --> 00:22:21.869
my profession, I maybe should have. But they've

00:22:21.869 --> 00:22:24.190
really brought that home to me, that idea that...

00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.400
That thinking maybe I can instead of maybe I

00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.440
can't, that's the thing that I think is quite

00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:36.059
different about them. So, I mean, let's listen

00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:39.140
to Ray Hanna. Oh, yeah. So Ray Hanna, here she

00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:41.579
is. She's a young woman in the motor trade. So

00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.420
that sounded cool. That's why I wanted to speak

00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:47.460
to her. But she has such an old head on her shoulders

00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:51.200
in terms of she's such a kind of deep, insightful

00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:54.259
person. I felt like she was really... teaching

00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:57.740
me something so let's have a listen to what she

00:22:57.740 --> 00:23:00.380
says about that that confidence and belief in

00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:02.500
yourself will will see you through to where you

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:05.079
want to go because if you give up you're not

00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:07.500
going to take those steps that you would have

00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:10.299
taken if you believed in yourself so it would

00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:13.660
be to to really believe in yourself and believe

00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:16.579
that if if you really want that and you if that's

00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:19.440
what you really desire that's your goal you can

00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.240
achieve it So she is saying, she's not saying,

00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:25.000
hey, I had massive belief and that's why I've

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.359
done it. She is saying, if you don't try, if

00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:32.380
you don't take the steps and have a go, then

00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:34.400
you'll never know what you could have achieved

00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:38.759
if you'd have believed in yourself. So that's

00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:40.640
that whole thing of, don't worry about whether

00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.119
you believe in yourself now, just act as if you

00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:47.680
do and see what happens. I mean, that is a heck

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.119
of a bit of advice, isn't it? Because... It's

00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.599
almost what it is saying, turn off the negative

00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:00.420
voices in your head and just do it. Yeah. Which

00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:03.940
is such a hard thing for any of us to do, isn't

00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:06.640
it? And the fact that that's kind of her mantra,

00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:11.579
maybe not mantra, but that's what her thought

00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:15.400
process is. I mean, that is almost like kind

00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.720
of military grade thought processing, isn't it?

00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.259
Yeah, it is. And it must be a really learned

00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:25.180
habit. And I think, I mean, she talked quite

00:24:25.180 --> 00:24:28.380
a bit about her childhood and her dad's Iranian

00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:31.799
and the way she'd grown up and they'd been kind

00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.359
of given this environment where they were supposed

00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:38.000
to compete and have a bit of constructive conflict

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.660
and a bit of argy -bargy and that was normal

00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:41.819
in the house. And I think it's made her a very

00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:48.240
robust person. Again, her story wasn't just about...

00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.339
because she is a female, there was a whole layer

00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:55.339
of story there about her name and her heritage

00:24:55.339 --> 00:24:58.940
and how... One of the things, I don't know why

00:24:58.940 --> 00:25:02.859
it stuck with me, but it did, is that she used

00:25:02.859 --> 00:25:05.259
a more anglicised name when applying for jobs.

00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:07.640
Well, she walked into places as well, didn't

00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:10.539
she? So she didn't send her CV because her name,

00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.380
she thought, well, it just sounds too Asian.

00:25:13.819 --> 00:25:17.460
And so I'll just walk in and speak to them. Yeah.

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.779
And that's smart. It's smart. It's also sad.

00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:25.119
Oh, yeah, it's sad. Isn't it? It is sad. Because

00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:29.660
why would that, you know, I have to say, sometimes

00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:34.079
I think I live in this kind of shadow of the

00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.799
90s world where it's like, everything's going

00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.940
to be fine. Let's just treat everyone the same.

00:25:38.980 --> 00:25:42.940
And that didn't work out. And it kind of still

00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:45.480
shocks me that we don't live in that society

00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:47.740
right now. In fact, we're probably going backwards,

00:25:47.859 --> 00:25:50.960
which is sad. You know, that really stuck with

00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.180
me, that story. Can I just say one thing about

00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:56.180
Rihanna? Yes. You're going to talk about the

00:25:56.180 --> 00:25:59.220
cat. The cat. She had a hairless cat in her house.

00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:03.700
She did. And I've never stroked a hairless cat.

00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:08.789
And, you know, the thing that really... Took

00:26:08.789 --> 00:26:12.690
me by surprise there. Yeah. Was that it was slightly

00:26:12.690 --> 00:26:17.390
fuzzy. As if it was trying to grow hair. Yeah.

00:26:17.789 --> 00:26:22.130
And it was almost like mossy. Yes. And that bore

00:26:22.130 --> 00:26:25.730
me for six. I was not expecting that. Because

00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:28.289
I just thought it would be skin. Yeah. Right?

00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:31.490
Yeah. It's not skin. Yeah. Fuzzy. Fuzzy. Yeah.

00:26:31.569 --> 00:26:33.490
And these are the highlights that are going on

00:26:33.490 --> 00:26:35.809
behind the podcast scenes. I know. Aren't they?

00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:39.750
She also had really nice deep carpets. Yeah.

00:26:39.829 --> 00:26:42.309
You know, in Die Hard, where he puts his feet

00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:45.210
in the rug. Oh, yeah, in order to get over the

00:26:45.210 --> 00:26:48.150
stress of the flying. Yeah. Yeah. They were that

00:26:48.150 --> 00:26:51.950
level of rug. Yeah. Yeah. And I enjoyed that.

00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:55.650
I mean, she was a very glamorous lady. Massively

00:26:55.650 --> 00:26:57.230
glamorous. Yeah, she's one of those people that

00:26:57.230 --> 00:26:59.089
you stand next to and you just immediately feel

00:26:59.089 --> 00:27:03.829
just a bit dowdy. Even as a guy, yes. Really

00:27:03.829 --> 00:27:08.230
need to up my game here. One more thing, she

00:27:08.230 --> 00:27:10.710
provided us with cakes. She did, yes. Actually,

00:27:10.730 --> 00:27:12.630
we've had quite a lot of cakes and biscuits offered.

00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:15.430
We have. Yes. Keep listening for more inside

00:27:15.430 --> 00:27:20.799
cake info. So, yeah, so that's that whole thing.

00:27:20.859 --> 00:27:23.240
So I think that, so she was very cool in terms

00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:25.940
of that courage before confidence. But I think

00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:27.599
another thing that struck me in terms of that

00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.240
tactical stuff is that most of the women don't

00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.519
take no for an answer. So there are kind of a

00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.200
bit, there's a bit of a bolshie steeliness inside

00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:38.119
them. And so many of them, they come over so

00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.619
lovely and kind and warm. And we'll talk about

00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:42.720
their style of leadership in a moment, which

00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.259
is actually very kind and compassionate, which

00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:47.799
is another thing that stood out. So they do come

00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:50.920
over with that warmth, all of them. However,

00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.900
when we dug a bit deeper, you kind of hear like,

00:27:53.980 --> 00:27:57.000
so Dr. Catherine Scott, when she talked about

00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.500
all the gauntlet throwing down and don't tell

00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:03.339
me no, that was something that struck me about

00:28:03.339 --> 00:28:05.759
these women is that they don't allow themselves

00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:08.099
to be told, you can't do this because you're

00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:09.900
a woman. You can't do this because you've got

00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:11.500
a Northern accent. You can't do this because

00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:13.779
you have an Asian name. They kind of just go,

00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:18.109
whatever. Yeah. And I mean, that is brave. Yeah.

00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:21.670
You know, that is just complete bravery, isn't

00:28:21.670 --> 00:28:25.009
it? Because I mean, you're the psychologist.

00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.250
Tell me what percentage of the population would

00:28:27.250 --> 00:28:30.029
just accept that and crack on in a different

00:28:30.029 --> 00:28:32.430
direction? Probably most of us. Yeah, I would

00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:34.269
say so. I'd be guessing. I don't know if there's

00:28:34.269 --> 00:28:37.950
been any actual research done, but I think, you

00:28:37.950 --> 00:28:41.549
know, we are primed. to see the negative and

00:28:41.549 --> 00:28:44.829
we are primed to avoid risk. So I think the logic

00:28:44.829 --> 00:28:48.349
would follow that most of us would step away

00:28:48.349 --> 00:28:52.490
from that kind of obstacle and barrier for fear

00:28:52.490 --> 00:28:54.789
of falling on our face. Well, run completely

00:28:54.789 --> 00:28:56.910
in the opposite direction, surely. You know,

00:28:56.930 --> 00:28:59.630
you just don't want to go there and be proved

00:28:59.630 --> 00:29:03.609
wrong, do you? No. And I think being able to

00:29:03.609 --> 00:29:06.950
turn that off and say, I'm going to do it anyway.

00:29:07.069 --> 00:29:11.299
I mean, in Catherine's... You know, wasn't it

00:29:11.299 --> 00:29:15.339
against, she was told no by somebody in government?

00:29:15.859 --> 00:29:19.259
Yeah. So Catherine, so Catherine was, she called

00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:21.660
herself like the unexpected CEO, didn't she?

00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.500
But fundamentally she's a scientist, a microbiologist.

00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.579
So she studied cancer and she saw some really

00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:30.430
clear things. I think she saw that. Early diagnosis

00:29:30.430 --> 00:29:34.170
was really critical. And then exercise was really

00:29:34.170 --> 00:29:36.349
critical. And they've become two of her things.

00:29:36.450 --> 00:29:38.829
And then she kind of had these really audacious

00:29:38.829 --> 00:29:41.250
goals, like, well, let's just get scanners going

00:29:41.250 --> 00:29:45.710
out and around the towns of the UK and get people

00:29:45.710 --> 00:29:48.170
early diagnosed with breast cancer and things.

00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:51.450
And of course, the government went, well, that's

00:29:51.450 --> 00:29:53.549
a logistical nightmare and it would cost us a

00:29:53.549 --> 00:29:57.019
fortune and we can't do it. But she just wasn't

00:29:57.019 --> 00:29:59.339
prepared to go, oh, okay, fair enough, you make

00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:02.400
a valid point. She just went, well, I'm going

00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.000
to prove the case and then you can't not do it.

00:30:05.140 --> 00:30:07.519
Yeah. Just let's hear her talk about that because

00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:09.460
I think that's a really cool clip. He gave me

00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:13.359
the freedom. and the confidence. Okay, Catherine,

00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.319
if you think going and putting some scanners

00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:17.779
in lorries is the right thing to do, you go and

00:30:17.779 --> 00:30:19.900
build it and then come back and tell me what

00:30:19.900 --> 00:30:22.400
it looks like. So build it in a theoretical sense,

00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:24.319
then come back and tell me what it looks like.

00:30:24.460 --> 00:30:26.900
Okay, if you think this is a good idea, prove

00:30:26.900 --> 00:30:29.720
it. And all that gauntlet throwing down just

00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.319
is perfect for me because I love a challenge.

00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:36.160
And again, when central government didn't want

00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:39.579
us to do some of the things that we were doing.

00:30:39.849 --> 00:30:41.769
Because it would give them a headache later on

00:30:41.769 --> 00:30:43.910
down the line if we proved them to be successful.

00:30:44.650 --> 00:30:47.450
That's even more gauntlet throwing down. So she

00:30:47.450 --> 00:30:50.069
was talking there about her boss at the time

00:30:50.069 --> 00:30:52.849
who had given her the permission, really, to

00:30:52.849 --> 00:30:55.950
go and prove it. So to prove the case in Yorkshire.

00:30:56.390 --> 00:30:59.190
And then that would put pressure on central government

00:30:59.190 --> 00:31:02.549
to do something more nationally. And that's exactly

00:31:02.549 --> 00:31:04.990
what's happened. And then with the exercise,

00:31:05.289 --> 00:31:07.450
she's opened up all of these wellbeing centres

00:31:07.450 --> 00:31:10.569
where... people with cancer or post -cancer are

00:31:10.569 --> 00:31:13.869
going to get fit and keep fit. And, you know,

00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:18.109
just that's someone who's really changing health

00:31:18.109 --> 00:31:21.910
outcomes, saving lives, because she just wouldn't

00:31:21.910 --> 00:31:25.990
be told no. And I can hear that in a lot of the

00:31:25.990 --> 00:31:28.710
women that, you know, on a very micro level,

00:31:28.809 --> 00:31:32.829
just being told, well, you can't sit there because

00:31:32.829 --> 00:31:34.630
that's where the solicitors sit and being like,

00:31:34.710 --> 00:31:38.670
I am a solicitor, jog on. From that kind of level

00:31:38.670 --> 00:31:41.509
to central government saying, no, all right,

00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:43.190
well, let's see if we can prove them wrong. Let's

00:31:43.190 --> 00:31:47.049
see if we can pressurise them to do it. And that's

00:31:47.049 --> 00:31:50.130
bold and brave, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And actually,

00:31:50.170 --> 00:31:52.849
when you think about it, you know, society needs

00:31:52.849 --> 00:31:56.369
these people, like desperately. Yeah. Because

00:31:56.369 --> 00:31:58.210
there are too many of us probably that would

00:31:58.210 --> 00:32:00.990
just go, OK. Yeah. I'll go and get lunch then.

00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:03.019
And we need those people because I think, you

00:32:03.019 --> 00:32:06.220
know, as a society, we'd probably fall down pretty

00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:09.900
quickly if there weren't these brave, bold people,

00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:14.240
women especially, out there breaking down the

00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.740
barriers. Yeah. In all sorts of ways. Yes. Yeah.

00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:20.779
And I think, you know, I've worked in the media,

00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.460
darling, for many years. And I think it's always,

00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:27.299
I find it fascinating meeting famous, notable

00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:30.200
people or people that have done something amazing.

00:32:31.059 --> 00:32:34.299
You know, people that have broken records, people

00:32:34.299 --> 00:32:40.960
that are in charge of huge organisations or whatever

00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.319
it may be. It sounds like a cliche, but they

00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:48.019
are always just normal people. We're all capable

00:32:48.019 --> 00:32:55.799
of doing these amazing things. Are we sort of

00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:58.779
discovering with these women that we're speaking

00:32:58.779 --> 00:33:04.390
to? How to take the brakes off for us all. That's

00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:07.109
what I hope we're doing. And I think there has

00:33:07.109 --> 00:33:10.329
been some really great, big research done on

00:33:10.329 --> 00:33:12.250
this. So into things like the growth mindset

00:33:12.250 --> 00:33:15.880
where. that principle has been proven. So we

00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.759
know that the brain has all this neuroplasticity

00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:22.259
and can change and adapt and learn and become

00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:24.819
bigger and better throughout our lives. In fact,

00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:26.819
right up until the end of our lives, it still

00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:30.319
has the ability to improve, which does give us

00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:34.660
this amazing potential. So I think that has been

00:33:34.660 --> 00:33:37.799
proven. And I think what I want to try and distill

00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:42.299
is the tactics for how you, yeah, like you say,

00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:44.599
I love that. Take the brakes off because that

00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:46.180
is the thing. And like I said at the beginning,

00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:50.279
the doubts that pop into my head when I'm feeling

00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:53.160
a bit fed up or tired or is why am I doing this

00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:55.519
podcast? Is anybody listening? And those people

00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:57.519
listening, are they enjoying it or are they just

00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.400
thinking, well, you're just annoying and this

00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:00.980
is all nonsense. There's nothing coming out of

00:34:00.980 --> 00:34:04.240
it. And that's the that's the boxing shadows

00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.109
that goes on in everybody's head. And what I'm

00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:09.809
hearing from these women is, oh, we all have

00:34:09.809 --> 00:34:12.550
that. Don't worry about that. That's fine. Just

00:34:12.550 --> 00:34:16.730
ride it out. Self -talk yourself down and just

00:34:16.730 --> 00:34:22.690
keep moving. And I think that's just. Well, it's

00:34:22.690 --> 00:34:24.409
blowing my mind a little bit because it's so

00:34:24.409 --> 00:34:27.429
simple and yet so hard at the same time. Yeah,

00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:30.110
isn't it? Yeah. It really is. So can we play

00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:32.510
the clip of Lauren? So Lauren York. So here she's

00:34:32.510 --> 00:34:34.889
UK location. So she does all these big glamorous

00:34:34.889 --> 00:34:37.329
houses for TV productions and things like that.

00:34:37.369 --> 00:34:38.889
But I think she was probably one of the most

00:34:38.889 --> 00:34:42.530
honest in terms of imposter syndrome and self

00:34:42.530 --> 00:34:46.369
-doubt. But she had some really nice insights

00:34:46.369 --> 00:34:49.900
into her tactics. So let's just share that because

00:34:49.900 --> 00:34:52.480
I think she had some really cool things to say.

00:34:52.699 --> 00:34:56.039
With the new element of the business that we're

00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:58.260
about to, well, I'm working on now, we're going

00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:01.239
to launch next year. Like I said, the feelings

00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:03.960
of imposter syndrome have come in again. And

00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:08.500
then also the anxiety around, will it work? Won't

00:35:08.500 --> 00:35:11.280
it work? Can I do it? You know, all those kind

00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.420
of things. And that happened over kind of like

00:35:13.420 --> 00:35:16.199
a three week period. And I wasn't sleeping properly.

00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:19.539
I was allowing it to kind of infiltrate my whole

00:35:19.539 --> 00:35:22.360
life basically and I took a step back from it

00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:24.079
and I had a word with a friend of mine who's

00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:26.760
a psychologist and I just she really helped me

00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:30.199
put it into perspective and reframe how I feel

00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:34.800
about it and so I now see it that it's a project

00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.030
that I'm working on. it might work, it might

00:35:38.030 --> 00:35:40.869
not work, but I will give it my best shot. There's

00:35:40.869 --> 00:35:42.869
productive worry and there's unproductive worry.

00:35:43.110 --> 00:35:44.750
You know, so if I'm worrying about something

00:35:44.750 --> 00:35:48.050
overnight and I get out of bed and I write, is

00:35:48.050 --> 00:35:49.869
it productive worry? If it is productive worry,

00:35:50.110 --> 00:35:52.789
I then put a date to it. So I will do this by

00:35:52.789 --> 00:35:55.329
then. So I know that I'm going to do that. If

00:35:55.329 --> 00:35:57.170
it's unproductive worry, I put it in another

00:35:57.170 --> 00:36:01.030
column and I put my values to it. So say, for

00:36:01.030 --> 00:36:03.980
example, it's this will never work if that's

00:36:03.980 --> 00:36:06.599
one of my unproductive worries I will look at

00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.840
that and I think it might not work but I'm going

00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:12.139
to give it my best shot because that is one of

00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:15.699
my values like I I want to do it so much and

00:36:15.699 --> 00:36:17.679
I have a passion and an interest to do it so

00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:21.219
much so that if it doesn't work at least I've

00:36:21.219 --> 00:36:25.309
tried at least I've given it my all Practical

00:36:25.309 --> 00:36:27.750
advice. Yeah, really practical. And I think that

00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:30.130
whole so I think what we've discussed so far,

00:36:30.190 --> 00:36:32.269
it's all about that mindset is really key to

00:36:32.269 --> 00:36:35.190
success, isn't it? So having a really clear purpose

00:36:35.190 --> 00:36:39.849
that means something to you is like fuel. But

00:36:39.849 --> 00:36:43.050
then you have to have that mindset of don't take

00:36:43.050 --> 00:36:45.900
no for an answer. You don't have to be comfortable

00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:47.860
and confident. You don't have to have high self

00:36:47.860 --> 00:36:50.739
-belief to start. Just get going. Keep moving.

00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.380
And then along the way, as Lauren quite honestly

00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:56.179
says, is every new and novel thing I try brings

00:36:56.179 --> 00:36:58.940
back that feeling of, oh, my goodness, can I

00:36:58.940 --> 00:37:01.579
do this? I can't. Maybe I can't. And then having

00:37:01.579 --> 00:37:04.079
that really practical, tactical way of going,

00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.659
right, what am I actually worrying about? And

00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:09.820
what am I going to do about that? And using your

00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:14.230
intellect against your emotion. And I think that's

00:37:14.230 --> 00:37:20.130
really powerful stuff. And heart. I mean, you

00:37:20.130 --> 00:37:25.369
know, emotions are like... Oh, yeah. You know,

00:37:25.389 --> 00:37:27.449
they're an unstoppable tide at times, aren't

00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:31.369
they, your emotions? And you've said this so

00:37:31.369 --> 00:37:34.349
many times on the podcast, you know, with anxiety,

00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:37.559
it's your... monkey brain trying to keep you

00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:39.940
safe basically isn't it you know all these sort

00:37:39.940 --> 00:37:42.679
of things and it's so hard to do though and which

00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.079
is why again and i know we've kind of made this

00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:49.039
point but why a lot of these women are just awe

00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.760
-inspiring because they are pushing against those

00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:56.780
Yeah. And I think what's been really nice to

00:37:56.780 --> 00:37:58.440
hear, I think we've had a few people. So we had

00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.500
Holly Colvin, who was ex -England cricketer,

00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:03.480
who was basically doing a dream job and then

00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:05.920
found it wasn't making her happy. And so went

00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:08.400
on and found something better to do. But quite

00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.059
freely admitted that that took a long time, that

00:38:11.059 --> 00:38:15.079
transition and the guilt she felt about not doing

00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:18.500
the dream job kept her in it. And then in the

00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:20.619
final episode, we had Bianca, who was in a really

00:38:20.619 --> 00:38:23.059
toxic environment where people were treating

00:38:23.059 --> 00:38:24.920
her quite badly and it was making her sick. She

00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:26.619
had a panic attack. They had to call an ambulance.

00:38:26.900 --> 00:38:29.059
But still, she said, oh, but I stayed far too

00:38:29.059 --> 00:38:31.719
long. So I think that's quite reassuring because

00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.199
I think, yeah, our emotions are powerful and

00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.119
they are sticky and they want us to listen to

00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.019
them, don't they? And we do. But I don't think

00:38:40.019 --> 00:38:41.900
we have to beat ourselves up about the fact we've

00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:43.659
listened to them or maybe we listened to them

00:38:43.659 --> 00:38:46.250
for a bit too long. I think it's just that at

00:38:46.250 --> 00:38:49.510
some point we have to move forward and that's

00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:51.010
what's coming over from these women. Just don't

00:38:51.010 --> 00:38:55.929
sit in it forever. Just on Lauren, her office

00:38:55.929 --> 00:38:58.570
was three flights of stairs up. It was. This

00:38:58.570 --> 00:39:00.170
is something that obviously never gets mentioned

00:39:00.170 --> 00:39:03.849
in any of the episodes is that some of them involve

00:39:03.849 --> 00:39:07.349
a lot of stairs, a lot of stairs. I've got a

00:39:07.349 --> 00:39:10.150
lot of stuff. There are cameras, there are microphones,

00:39:10.469 --> 00:39:13.130
sometimes there are soundboards. We've not bothered

00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:15.829
with them in the kitchen today, in Leona's kitchen.

00:39:15.929 --> 00:39:17.690
So it might be a bit echoey, but that's fine.

00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:22.849
Your kitchen is up a lot of stairs. But that

00:39:22.849 --> 00:39:27.039
office, man. It was so far up in the sky. It

00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:30.079
was. It was. I was like, oh, my word. What are

00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:30.880
you trying to do to me? You worked hard that

00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:33.059
day. But you're always working really hard because

00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:34.880
we always have this half hour at the beginning

00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:36.719
of the podcast where me and the guests are just

00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.219
having a cup of tea and probably some biscuits

00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:40.420
or cakes. Yeah. And it's all really lovely. And

00:39:40.420 --> 00:39:41.920
we're just talking about what we might chat about.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:43.760
Or maybe not. Maybe just talking about where

00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:45.760
we're going on holiday. And you're just like

00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:47.880
grafting and there's wires going everywhere.

00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.300
That's fine. What I'm worried about in that situation,

00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:54.119
which we have, this is what not. we've never

00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:57.300
talked about this, is that you're going to use

00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:01.079
all of the good stuff up. Yeah. You know, I'm

00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:03.780
genuinely, which is why I'm going so fast, because

00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:06.360
I'm like, I've got to get all this set up before,

00:40:06.460 --> 00:40:10.300
there's Bagel walking past, we've got to get

00:40:10.300 --> 00:40:13.860
all this set up before you hit like this amazing

00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:18.539
vein of rich. stuff yeah that will only occur

00:40:18.539 --> 00:40:21.360
once and won't get talked about in the actual

00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.199
podcast that's why i'm going so fast yeah yeah

00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:26.559
quite right i mean keep you on your toes well

00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:29.599
it's a good motivational tactic which brings

00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:37.340
us on to the final insight which is about so

00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:39.440
if all the other stuff is about how these women

00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:42.329
think I think the final bit that's really struck

00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:45.969
me is how they do what they do, how they lead.

00:40:46.449 --> 00:40:50.449
And that came over as being really empowering

00:40:50.449 --> 00:40:53.070
leadership style, a lot of kindness, a lot of

00:40:53.070 --> 00:40:56.610
compassion. We had Rebecca Oliver Mooney from

00:40:56.610 --> 00:40:58.590
the co -op who was talking about making people

00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:01.889
feel they belong and inclusivity and all that.

00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.519
kind of great stuff, didn't we? And obviously

00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:07.559
Bianca, who left that toxic environment, retrained

00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.539
and now goes back in and tries to change workplaces

00:41:10.539 --> 00:41:13.719
and make them better. So a lot of these women

00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:17.239
are really actively trying to improve the experience

00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:21.650
of others at work. And I think what... What encapsulates

00:41:21.650 --> 00:41:24.010
that most was Professor Beverly Alamo -Metcalf,

00:41:24.250 --> 00:41:26.949
who I fangirled over, didn't I? It was a bit

00:41:26.949 --> 00:41:28.429
embarrassing. It was a little bit embarrassing.

00:41:28.809 --> 00:41:30.769
It wasn't. I've loved her for many years. She

00:41:30.769 --> 00:41:32.690
came along with her daughter, Juliet, and they're

00:41:32.690 --> 00:41:35.010
both brilliant. But she does this whole thing

00:41:35.010 --> 00:41:38.050
about how, I mean, it makes me feel like my mum's

00:41:38.050 --> 00:41:40.869
telling me what to do. Just play the clips that

00:41:40.869 --> 00:41:42.730
hopefully people will feel the same when Beverly

00:41:42.730 --> 00:41:45.150
tells you how you should treat people at work.

00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:49.019
I think there's a deep moral and ethical... responsibility

00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:52.099
for anybody, any leadership position, supervisor,

00:41:52.300 --> 00:41:56.440
team lead, actually any human being to be aware

00:41:56.440 --> 00:42:00.019
that your expectations of me or other people

00:42:00.019 --> 00:42:03.320
in your team will have a powerful impact on my

00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:07.860
belief in myself. And psychology, time after

00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:11.619
time after time, provides evidence that if we

00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:14.219
have negative expectations of people, we will

00:42:14.219 --> 00:42:17.599
only see the negatives. They won't perform as

00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:20.079
effectively if we have... positive expectations

00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.659
and so much so that people who are supported

00:42:23.659 --> 00:42:28.360
by bosses or team leads who have positive expectations

00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:31.019
of them surprise themselves in what they can

00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:34.199
achieve because there's so much self -confidence

00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:37.079
and respect that that is transmitted as well

00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.099
as I believe you can do this you know I also

00:42:40.099 --> 00:42:44.119
respect I value you you're unique this is critical

00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:48.349
what you do So all that is transferred in that.

00:42:48.429 --> 00:42:51.090
And that's what leadership is all about. I mean,

00:42:51.110 --> 00:42:54.230
that makes me like in parallel sit up straight,

00:42:54.329 --> 00:42:58.070
but also it brings a bit of a tear to my eye,

00:42:58.130 --> 00:43:00.610
like a lump to my throat. It has like that kind

00:43:00.610 --> 00:43:02.510
of impact of this is how we should all behave

00:43:02.510 --> 00:43:04.949
and this is how we should all treat each other.

00:43:05.550 --> 00:43:09.530
And I think she just gave us all a bit of a reminder.

00:43:10.250 --> 00:43:12.289
didn't she, of how much we can affect the people

00:43:12.289 --> 00:43:15.730
around us. Yeah. That's one of the strong things

00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:18.329
that I think, not just from Bev's episode, but

00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:22.150
there's a few others. And do you know, I can't

00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:24.530
put my finger on which ones. You'll go, oh, it

00:43:24.530 --> 00:43:26.269
was this one or that one or the other one. But

00:43:26.269 --> 00:43:31.349
where how we are does have an effect on the world

00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:34.409
around us. And I think we possibly, a lot of

00:43:34.409 --> 00:43:38.260
us, float through life just thinking, you know,

00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:40.960
this is just me and, you know, I'm not really

00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.579
having that much of an impact anywhere. But actually,

00:43:43.659 --> 00:43:46.400
just by nature of being in a room with other

00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.079
people and being alive, you do. You are influencing

00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.480
your experience of the world, aren't you? I remember

00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.679
years ago, a psychologist, a fellow psychologist

00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.219
saying to me, oh, it's the difference between

00:43:58.219 --> 00:44:02.139
a Disney day. And an awful day. So on a Disney

00:44:02.139 --> 00:44:04.059
day, you get up, the sun's shining, your neighbour

00:44:04.059 --> 00:44:06.260
says hello, you get into work, somebody's brought

00:44:06.260 --> 00:44:07.780
doughnuts in because it's someone's birthday.

00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:10.440
And the day's just a dream. It's great. You know,

00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:12.280
there's like little birds flapping around your

00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:14.579
head. And then on another day you get up and

00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:16.420
it's raining and your umbrella breaks and the

00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:18.519
bus is late and you get into work and the person

00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:20.980
you were meeting has called in sick and you just

00:44:20.980 --> 00:44:23.320
think this day just needs to quit. It's a no

00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:26.309
smoking sign. On your cigarette break. It is.

00:44:26.369 --> 00:44:29.550
It's not ironic. Or very Alanis Morissette. Or

00:44:29.550 --> 00:44:32.570
very Alanis Morissette. And then the real mind

00:44:32.570 --> 00:44:36.050
-blowing thing is that's probably you. So you

00:44:36.050 --> 00:44:38.650
get up on that day and maybe the sunshine puts

00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:40.369
you in a good mood, but you leave your house

00:44:40.369 --> 00:44:42.630
smiling. That's why your neighbour says hello.

00:44:43.949 --> 00:44:50.070
Oh, wow! Whoa! Yeah. OK. So you start to actually

00:44:50.070 --> 00:44:52.190
predict your experience of the day because you

00:44:52.190 --> 00:44:53.929
go out and your head is up and you're looking

00:44:53.929 --> 00:44:55.610
around and you're noticing things and you're

00:44:55.610 --> 00:44:57.550
in a good mood and there's a song in your head

00:44:57.550 --> 00:45:00.750
and the world responds. And then you get up on

00:45:00.750 --> 00:45:02.929
that like bad day and you go out, your head's

00:45:02.929 --> 00:45:04.530
down, your neighbour's there. They might wave

00:45:04.530 --> 00:45:07.530
to you, but you don't see it. So, so much of

00:45:07.530 --> 00:45:09.489
our experience of life we're doing to ourselves.

00:45:10.750 --> 00:45:13.590
It feels like my whole entire life has been a

00:45:13.590 --> 00:45:19.550
lie. Wow. I know, I know. But like you say, emotions

00:45:19.550 --> 00:45:21.730
are hard, so I can still get up on a grumpy day

00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:25.889
and my... intelligent brain my non -emotional

00:45:25.889 --> 00:45:27.989
brain will be saying well if you just put yourself

00:45:27.989 --> 00:45:29.909
in a good mood this is going to be a much nicer

00:45:29.909 --> 00:45:32.429
experience leona and i just tell it to sod off

00:45:32.429 --> 00:45:35.449
basically because i'm in a grump and i feel quite

00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:37.469
justified in that grump and so i stay in it on

00:45:37.469 --> 00:45:41.250
purpose so i think yeah emotions are sticky we

00:45:41.250 --> 00:45:43.860
like them When we're angry, we feel justified

00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:45.760
being angry. When we're sad, we feel sorry for

00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.360
ourselves. So it's really hard to climb out of

00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.480
that. That's the thing, isn't it? I mean, you

00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.699
know, not a lot of us will admit it, but some

00:45:52.699 --> 00:45:56.619
days it's nice to be angry. Why is that? Am I

00:45:56.619 --> 00:46:01.039
crazy? Am I crazy? I think we like, human beings

00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:04.099
like to be right. We like to be right. We have

00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:06.519
a high need for like competence. So I think if

00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:08.280
somebody said something or done something that's

00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:11.820
angered us. Well, we'll find people to talk to

00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:14.900
that agree with us. Yeah. And so that reinforces

00:46:14.900 --> 00:46:16.460
that feeling. And if we can't find someone to

00:46:16.460 --> 00:46:18.300
agree with us, we just agree with ourselves in

00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:20.539
our own head. Right. And we just tell ourselves

00:46:20.539 --> 00:46:22.739
that it was absolutely awful and it's not fair

00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:26.059
and blah, blah, blah. And if you stop and try

00:46:26.059 --> 00:46:28.159
and think about the other person's perspective,

00:46:28.579 --> 00:46:31.639
it's really hard. You don't want to acknowledge

00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:34.280
that you might have upset them or they might

00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:38.030
not have meant it. Right. Because you feel that

00:46:38.030 --> 00:46:40.570
pain of whatever they said and did. And so you

00:46:40.570 --> 00:46:43.010
feel really justified. So it's all really complicated.

00:46:44.469 --> 00:46:48.429
I mean, we are, for want of a better expression,

00:46:48.690 --> 00:46:51.510
all slightly effed up, aren't we? Oh, yeah, completely.

00:46:51.550 --> 00:46:53.590
Isn't it glorious? It's glorious. It's lovely.

00:46:53.849 --> 00:46:55.730
And that's why looking for those little life

00:46:55.730 --> 00:46:57.250
hacks. And I think that's what these women are

00:46:57.250 --> 00:47:00.210
giving us, little life hacks. And even they are

00:47:00.210 --> 00:47:03.349
saying, I am not doing all of this all the time.

00:47:03.949 --> 00:47:06.170
like I am having like Lauren I'm having my bad

00:47:06.170 --> 00:47:09.030
days I'm having my stressors I'm having to speak

00:47:09.030 --> 00:47:10.989
to my mate who's a psychologist to be reminded

00:47:10.989 --> 00:47:14.630
of what I need to do so we're all having those

00:47:14.630 --> 00:47:18.010
dips and that's okay so long as we know how to

00:47:18.010 --> 00:47:20.650
climb out of the dip even if it's hard to climb

00:47:20.650 --> 00:47:24.989
out of the dip can I remind you of something

00:47:24.989 --> 00:47:28.889
that almost gave me a very bad day go on uh so

00:47:28.889 --> 00:47:33.250
uh Beverly, Alamo Metcalf. The cafe. We were

00:47:33.250 --> 00:47:36.809
in a cafe and we were searching for a venue to

00:47:36.809 --> 00:47:38.630
speak to Beverly, who I think, by the way, I

00:47:38.630 --> 00:47:41.070
saw going for a haircut the other day. Amazing.

00:47:41.190 --> 00:47:44.889
Even big wig psychologists. I mean, big wig.

00:47:44.969 --> 00:47:47.250
Why did I choose that? I have to have a haircut.

00:47:47.449 --> 00:47:50.570
They have to keep their hair looking good. And

00:47:50.570 --> 00:47:53.960
she went to a hairdresser's near my house. Did

00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:56.119
think about waving, but then I thought, I just

00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:59.199
don't. One of those. Anyway, we were looking

00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:01.500
for a venue to talk to Beverly in, weren't we?

00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.300
Yeah. And we decided on your sister's lovely

00:48:04.300 --> 00:48:07.559
cafe in Guiseley. Bramble Bakehouse. Shout out.

00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:11.639
Shout out. And it seemed perfect. There was a

00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.400
space downstairs. We could keep it to ourselves.

00:48:15.699 --> 00:48:20.269
Great little room. And we started recording.

00:48:20.869 --> 00:48:23.369
Well, I tell you what, have a listen to this.

00:48:23.429 --> 00:48:27.210
This is your first question to Beverly. This

00:48:27.210 --> 00:48:29.630
is her answering that first question. It was

00:48:29.630 --> 00:48:34.130
definitely from school. I went to a kind of strict

00:48:34.130 --> 00:48:38.190
convent school in Wimbledon. And every fortnight

00:48:38.190 --> 00:48:41.000
we had marks. in front of the whole school. 600

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:44.519
girls were in the main hall and we were called

00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:47.519
by each form to come forward. And then those

00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.800
people who had A average over the previous form

00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:54.300
might get clapped. Anyway, she was telling us

00:48:54.300 --> 00:48:56.019
about her school days there. Yeah, yeah. And

00:48:56.019 --> 00:48:58.199
it was quite interesting because actually I think

00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:01.860
it sort of gave us the basis for why she is the

00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:04.460
person that she is. Oh, but more than that, I

00:49:04.460 --> 00:49:08.010
mean, she's a professor. of psychology and she

00:49:08.010 --> 00:49:10.989
was telling us about being one of the underperforming

00:49:10.989 --> 00:49:12.989
students at school and how scarring that would

00:49:12.989 --> 00:49:17.710
be. Yeah, absolutely. However... That's not what

00:49:17.710 --> 00:49:20.210
you're talking about, is it? What happened actually

00:49:20.210 --> 00:49:23.849
in reality there was that more or less everything

00:49:23.849 --> 00:49:28.170
started happening upstairs in the cafe. You'll

00:49:28.170 --> 00:49:30.989
get what I mean when I play the clip. Coffee

00:49:30.989 --> 00:49:33.820
machine already. School. It was definitely from

00:49:33.820 --> 00:49:38.739
school. I went to a straight convent school in

00:49:38.739 --> 00:49:41.739
Melbourne. That was annoying. And every fortnight

00:49:41.739 --> 00:49:44.559
we had marks in front of the whole school. 600

00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:49.039
girls. We're in the main hall and we were called

00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:51.960
by each form to come forward. And then those

00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:55.380
people who had A average over the previous fortnight

00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:58.440
get clapped. You might even say it on that clip.

00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:01.619
If we'd have just had a siren, then we'd have

00:50:01.619 --> 00:50:03.599
ticked all the boxes for kind of noise interference.

00:50:04.019 --> 00:50:06.679
Like, you know, a load of scouts turning up.

00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.699
Rattling tins. You know, it just all went off.

00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:16.519
And I'm like, oh, no, this is really bad. But

00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:19.000
that's when I realised that having you on board

00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:22.550
was a real asset because... like you made it

00:50:22.550 --> 00:50:25.829
all go away it all went away but it was very

00:50:25.829 --> 00:50:27.869
funny and i think that was only our second interview

00:50:27.869 --> 00:50:30.130
it was and it's quite and it's a weird thing

00:50:30.130 --> 00:50:31.510
when you're sitting there talking to somebody

00:50:31.510 --> 00:50:33.650
and especially somebody that i mean i really

00:50:33.650 --> 00:50:36.789
admire beverly and so i wanted to be at my best

00:50:36.789 --> 00:50:38.969
and look my best and then all of a sudden i could

00:50:38.969 --> 00:50:41.829
hear this chaos going on and my anxiety is going

00:50:41.829 --> 00:50:44.210
up in me and i'm having to like talk myself off

00:50:44.210 --> 00:50:47.510
the ledge of just like panic yeah because she's

00:50:47.510 --> 00:50:50.150
still talking and i'm trying to look really interested

00:50:50.150 --> 00:50:52.659
yeah but yeah Yeah, absolutely. It was all going

00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:56.179
on. It was. We need to talk about locations really

00:50:56.179 --> 00:50:58.099
quickly. We talked about barges. We talked about

00:50:58.099 --> 00:51:01.920
HMRC. Rom, who we mentioned very briefly there,

00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:06.559
her house was amazing. Yeah. In the middle of

00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:08.739
nowhere. Middle of nowhere. Beautiful house.

00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:12.039
It's the sort of house that you can just imagine

00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:14.400
drinking a lot of red wine in. That might just

00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:18.139
be me. Yeah. But it was like... I was just imagining

00:51:18.139 --> 00:51:20.659
getting snowed in. Yeah. Like you ain't getting

00:51:20.659 --> 00:51:23.840
out of there, are you? Fire on, red wine. Yeah.

00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:28.380
Life's good. Amazing. But that has been the privilege

00:51:28.380 --> 00:51:30.980
really, hasn't it? That we have been in other

00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:33.519
people's homes and we've been able to sort of

00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:38.039
see how they live. Yes. I mean, Bianca had a

00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:40.980
tree in her house. Inside her house, a tree.

00:51:41.300 --> 00:51:48.769
Well, she was in Rothwell. Oh, maybe. I feel

00:51:48.769 --> 00:51:53.789
that is how Rothwell FM's jingle would go. Rothwell

00:51:53.789 --> 00:51:59.329
FM. Very unassuming terrace house in, we think,

00:51:59.349 --> 00:52:02.610
Rothwell. Yes. But you went in and there was

00:52:02.610 --> 00:52:04.550
a tree in it. It's like walking into one of those

00:52:04.550 --> 00:52:07.909
fancy Chinese restaurants. Yes. With like a big

00:52:07.909 --> 00:52:10.989
blossom tree in there. Gorgeous. Loved it. Loved

00:52:10.989 --> 00:52:14.289
it. What was your personal highlight on location?

00:52:15.050 --> 00:52:18.389
I think it was probably Lady Isabella, the houseboat

00:52:18.389 --> 00:52:21.329
with Simone. That was crackers. It was great.

00:52:21.489 --> 00:52:24.590
And because I have a narrowboat, I just had house

00:52:24.590 --> 00:52:28.130
envy or boat envy. It was a Dutch wide barge,

00:52:28.130 --> 00:52:30.550
wasn't it? It was a wide barge, not a narrowboat.

00:52:30.889 --> 00:52:34.210
Very difficult, like twice the width. Yeah. Lucky

00:52:34.210 --> 00:52:37.969
girl. And I think that's probably the most danger

00:52:37.969 --> 00:52:40.710
I felt simultaneously since we've been doing

00:52:40.710 --> 00:52:43.030
this because you had, you know, it's parked.

00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:48.300
moored, sorry, sorry, captain, moored by the

00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:51.480
side of the harbour. And you have to step over

00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:54.320
the water onto the barge. And I'm there with

00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:57.760
a bag that probably weighs about 10 kilos, rucksack

00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.420
on, and a bag that weighs a bit less with the

00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:03.699
lights in. And I just suddenly went unbalanced.

00:53:03.940 --> 00:53:06.519
And I just thought, oh, this would be really

00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:10.380
bad if I fell in. And psychology... Lady. Yeah.

00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:12.800
Here we go. This is where you kick in. OK. Why

00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:16.199
do we do that? Like we suddenly go, oh, my God,

00:53:16.219 --> 00:53:18.539
imagine if you fell in. Yeah. No, we do that.

00:53:18.579 --> 00:53:20.480
Well, we do that on purpose. There was a piece

00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:23.880
of research done where they said there's a phenomena

00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:26.699
where people who don't have kids in particular,

00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:28.420
I think it happens to. But if let's say you're

00:53:28.420 --> 00:53:30.599
an aunt or an uncle and so your brother or sister

00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:34.619
hands you their baby. And you think, oh, I'm

00:53:34.619 --> 00:53:37.579
going to jump and drop it. And it's a really

00:53:37.579 --> 00:53:40.239
common phenomena. But when they researched it,

00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:42.739
what they said was that those people who have

00:53:42.739 --> 00:53:47.039
that thought hold the baby tighter. Okie dokie.

00:53:47.139 --> 00:53:49.820
Right, fine. So the brain is going, this is the

00:53:49.820 --> 00:53:51.619
biggest risk here. You might just drop this.

00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:53.800
I mean, it wasn't about the weight, Nick, was

00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:55.400
it? It was about all the amazing gadgets inside

00:53:55.400 --> 00:53:58.239
those bags. I don't want to get unwet. Just all

00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:01.769
of your precious things. Yeah, my things. You

00:54:01.769 --> 00:54:03.969
didn't want to get those things wet. And so,

00:54:04.070 --> 00:54:06.769
yeah, when we think that, it is highlighting

00:54:06.769 --> 00:54:11.349
the risk, biggest risk, which makes us take evasive

00:54:11.349 --> 00:54:13.889
action. Okay, interesting. So, yeah, I think

00:54:13.889 --> 00:54:16.630
there is a good reason for that. So if you think

00:54:16.630 --> 00:54:18.769
I'm going to drop the baby, it's okay, take the

00:54:18.769 --> 00:54:21.329
baby. Yeah, just don't drop it. Just don't drop

00:54:21.329 --> 00:54:25.789
it, yes. We need to talk before we shuffle off

00:54:25.789 --> 00:54:32.719
this end of... series episode about the next

00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.579
series because we've already done some work on

00:54:36.579 --> 00:54:40.460
it and I think we think what's going to be the

00:54:40.460 --> 00:54:45.039
first episode of the new series is jaw dropping

00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:49.699
yes we interviewed this week didn't we Tara Howell

00:54:49.699 --> 00:54:52.760
and so she broke her neck when she fell off her

00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:56.039
horse and is now paralysed from the shoulders

00:54:56.039 --> 00:55:00.250
down and Oh, my gosh. So there was two things,

00:55:00.329 --> 00:55:05.590
I think. One, her decision to choose to not let

00:55:05.590 --> 00:55:09.610
it ruin her life and her mental toughness was

00:55:09.610 --> 00:55:13.590
just awe -inspiring. Unbelievable. I don't know

00:55:13.590 --> 00:55:16.349
if I'd be able to do what she's done. I mean,

00:55:16.349 --> 00:55:22.309
it's just wow. But then her description of the

00:55:22.309 --> 00:55:26.289
accident and her stay in hospital... we were

00:55:26.289 --> 00:55:28.369
both speechless weren't we I've never heard anybody

00:55:28.369 --> 00:55:33.909
describe the accident and I'm not talking about

00:55:33.909 --> 00:55:36.130
her I mean in general when you hear people talking

00:55:36.130 --> 00:55:38.949
about what's happened to them I've never heard

00:55:38.949 --> 00:55:42.329
it described in in in the way that she does yeah

00:55:43.530 --> 00:55:46.230
All right, Bagel, snoring there. Sorry. She found

00:55:46.230 --> 00:55:49.050
it boring. She found it really boring. And then

00:55:49.050 --> 00:55:51.289
there's some stuff which went on in the hospital,

00:55:51.309 --> 00:55:54.070
not from a medical point of view, from a psychological

00:55:54.070 --> 00:55:58.530
point of view. And we're not talking about the

00:55:58.530 --> 00:56:02.250
story that we've heard quite a lot from, you

00:56:02.250 --> 00:56:04.369
know, and it's still incredible, people that

00:56:04.369 --> 00:56:07.550
literally get back on their feet again or at

00:56:07.550 --> 00:56:09.070
least attempt to get back on their feet again

00:56:09.070 --> 00:56:13.139
after such an injury. I can't even describe it.

00:56:13.179 --> 00:56:18.599
No. It's what was going through her head as she

00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:22.539
was lying in intensive care. And I promise you,

00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:25.920
you will not have heard anything like this before.

00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:29.219
No. It genuinely will stay with me for the rest

00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:32.380
of my life. Yeah. And just... You know, if anyone

00:56:32.380 --> 00:56:34.280
is like me out there thinking, oh, my goodness,

00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:35.719
is she going to be talking about moving towards

00:56:35.719 --> 00:56:38.659
the light and seeing all her family? No, it wasn't

00:56:38.659 --> 00:56:41.360
that. No, it wasn't that. It was something very,

00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:46.179
very different. And just, yeah, I don't know

00:56:46.179 --> 00:56:47.860
what to say without actually saying it. And I

00:56:47.860 --> 00:56:49.800
don't want to take her words away. So let's.

00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:53.480
So series two. There you go. Just quickly, because

00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:57.440
I know we've got to stop talking. But one of

00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.420
the things I really like about you is that you

00:56:59.420 --> 00:57:01.280
call it a series and not a season. Well, you've

00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:06.099
told me to. I know. Because series is British.

00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:09.460
Exactly. Yes. Bring back the series. Come on,

00:57:09.460 --> 00:57:11.500
the British. And now that the Americans are tariffing

00:57:11.500 --> 00:57:14.199
us all over the place and lobbing hypothetical

00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:17.280
grenades at us, let's not use their terminology.

00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:19.860
No. Let's stick to our own. Series. We are the

00:57:19.860 --> 00:57:24.260
Brits. Yeah. Yeah, so we're going to have a bit

00:57:24.260 --> 00:57:26.510
of a break. We're going to have a bit of a break

00:57:26.510 --> 00:57:29.949
before the next series where we just need to

00:57:29.949 --> 00:57:32.730
just interview the next group of people. But

00:57:32.730 --> 00:57:34.269
there's some fabulous people as well as Tara.

00:57:34.409 --> 00:57:37.849
We've got the chief executive of Candlelighters,

00:57:37.849 --> 00:57:39.590
who are the charity that look after children

00:57:39.590 --> 00:57:43.389
with cancer. And my niece having just come through

00:57:43.389 --> 00:57:46.469
her leukemia journey at age five. That's very

00:57:46.469 --> 00:57:49.139
close to my heart and the work that. Emily and

00:57:49.139 --> 00:57:50.480
the candlelighters do. So I think that's going

00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.360
to be a bit of a tearjerker. And then we also

00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:55.619
have, we've just signed up Sarah Sowerby, who

00:57:55.619 --> 00:57:57.780
does this whole thing about women in pharma.

00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.099
And she educated me about this whole idea of

00:58:01.099 --> 00:58:04.800
a beyond bikini medicine, which is this idea

00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:08.179
that in the medical world, women are treated

00:58:08.179 --> 00:58:10.320
exactly the same as men from a medical point

00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:12.219
of view, apart from anything that happens below

00:58:12.219 --> 00:58:15.789
the bikini. Which is complete nonsense. And she

00:58:15.789 --> 00:58:17.710
was saying pretty much every cell in our body

00:58:17.710 --> 00:58:21.309
is different. And women are mainly oestrogen,

00:58:21.389 --> 00:58:24.329
men are mainly testosterone. And then she sent

00:58:24.329 --> 00:58:28.170
me this chart where it showed 22 different medical

00:58:28.170 --> 00:58:32.329
conditions where women have a different experience

00:58:32.329 --> 00:58:37.570
than men. So, I mean, that is going to be really,

00:58:37.710 --> 00:58:40.630
really fascinating to dig into that and the work

00:58:40.630 --> 00:58:44.530
that her and her pharmaceutical... um women are

00:58:44.530 --> 00:58:47.429
doing so yeah some really cool stuff yeah and

00:58:47.429 --> 00:58:51.130
more people that we've got you know some of the

00:58:51.130 --> 00:58:52.949
people in the pipeline are really exciting oh

00:58:52.949 --> 00:58:55.769
yeah very not exciting but you know there's uh

00:58:55.769 --> 00:58:59.409
there's there's some potentially they're not

00:58:59.409 --> 00:59:02.949
confirmed are they so we can't it's aspirational

00:59:02.949 --> 00:59:06.650
but yes we're gonna we're gonna try and we're

00:59:06.650 --> 00:59:10.119
gonna try and capture A big fish. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:59:10.260 --> 00:59:13.659
Like it. Yes. Let's do that. But it's been good.

00:59:13.820 --> 00:59:16.239
Yeah, it has. I've enjoyed it. Me too. I've learned

00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:18.780
something. Thanks ever so much to everyone that's

00:59:18.780 --> 00:59:22.000
been listening. It's been great to be on this

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:25.320
journey with you and looking forward to bringing

00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:29.579
more wonderful women your way. Look at that alliteration.

00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:33.300
That was lovely. I don't even notice. I'm sorry.

00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:38.099
Bye.