Hi, everyone. So today's a really different Leadership
Journeys episode. So Nick, the producer, and
I, the ginger wizard. Hello. Is here with me
in my kitchen. The birds are singing, the sun
is out. And we're here to do a behind the scenes
take on this whole podcast journey. And I think
when I started this out, I was... I had this
ambition. I think I wanted to help other women.
I wanted to particularly help younger women to
learn from those who'd been there and done it.
But oh my gosh, Nick, these women, they're in
my head now. And even with this podcast, I've
had real like highs. of it where I've really
enjoyed the episodes and we've had really good
feedback and it's been brilliant. And then I've
had real anxiety about like, what am I doing?
Why am I doing it? It takes up so much time and
is it going to achieve anything? And then these
women are in my head going, well, you can't stop.
Stopping isn't the answer. You have to do it
now. So I suppose that's quite an interesting
thing I wasn't expecting. Are they in your head?
To a certain degree, yeah. I mean, you know,
a lot of the stories that we've heard do stick
with you. And I think, especially as a bloke,
and I'm very aware and privileged, actually,
that I'm the only fella to appear on this podcast.
Yes. Aren't I? Yeah. And I think from my point
of view, although, you know, I would very much
see myself as an ally, I've learned a lot of
things that I didn't even consider before from
these women. And I think a lot of their stories
have stuck with me, definitely. What have you
learned then, do you think? What have been the
takeaways from a male point of view? There's
been so much. I think some of the struggles that
we've heard about, and from a journalistic point
of view, that's quite kind of lazy journalism,
isn't it? Because you kind of expect there to
be barriers. I think the interesting thing...
I've learned, especially from some of them, is
that actually being a woman wasn't a barrier,
but something else about them was. For example,
from Simone, who had an issue because she was
Northern. Yes. You know, and being a female in
the Navy was never a thing. And I think that's
kind of eye -opening because although obviously
some of the guests have... come up against it
because they are female. Zoe, most notably. Yes,
has to move in a courtroom because that's where
the solicitors sit. Yeah. You know, and that's
just crackers, isn't it? It's mad. But I think
I've learned a lot of things I didn't expect
to learn from the point of view that it's not
just being female. There are other things at
play there. And it's just genuinely really, really
eye -opening. Yeah. And I think at what point
do you think you thought, oh, this this podcast
has got legs? Because I think I went into it
with a big hope that I would have something interesting
to bring to listeners. And then you always hope
that you always hope that. And then but I think
it was your reaction to a couple of the initial
interviews that really gave me that confidence
because you were saying, oh, my goodness, that
was fascinating. And that. that almost like the
psychology of what was going on inside the minds
of these women was really intriguing. And you
were the one that went, this is good, more of
that, I think. And you kind of guided me, which
was really helpful. I think it was the first
one we recorded, which is actually episode four.
Catherine, Dr. Catherine Scott. Is that four?
Yes. Don't want to get it wrong. I'm the person
that uploaded it. I can't remember. Episode four
or five, the one with Catherine. Dr Catherine
Scott. And it was the first one we did. It was
the summertime last year, wasn't it? Yeah. 2024.
And I sat there listening and I've never told
you this. I sat there and I thought, crikey,
Leona's going on a bit here. And it suddenly
clicked there and then that actually you doing
your kind of... I call it psych talk around the
guests was actually what the podcast was. You
know, this isn't a, this is your life type style
thing where we get to know the person a little
bit more. This is you kind of lifting the bonnet
of their brain and having a good look in there
and seeing what's going on. And it was that,
that suddenly I thought, Oh, cause we talked
a bit beforehand and we, chucked ideas around
and stuff. But it was that moment where I just
thought, that's what this podcast is. That's
exactly what this podcast is. Yeah. It's a furcle
in people's heads. Yeah. And I hadn't realised
that that was, it's making me smile because I
know my family will just really chuckle at you
thinking, oh my God, Leona's just going on a
bit. Because I think that is a bit of a character
trait. Right. Yeah. Okay. Good for podcasting.
I don't think I did that kind of tactically or
with any level of intellect, perhaps. I think
that's just the way I communicate. But in this
scenario, it seemed to have worked. But it did.
And you've done it ever since. And I think I
come from a radio background. And when a presenter
goes off on one doing something like that, especially
in a pre -recorded interview, you're like, get
rid of that. Don't care. Nine out of ten times.
But it suddenly became very, very apparent that
that's what your USP is, is because you can do
this. And actually, we're there to kind of circle
with you. Yeah. and see what you can pick up.
And I've no doubt that people will be listening
and hearing things that I missed, you know, like
insights or little comments that people make
that give you like a hint at how they handled
something or how they thought about something.
And once you start listening for meaning that
way, I think it's a really cool kind of skill
to have. I do try and edit those bits out, Leona.
If I think, oh gosh, she's missed that, I get
rid of them. Yeah, thanks. So let's have a look.
So we thought it would be nice to give a bit
of insight into, I suppose, some of the common
things that we've heard from these women, common
things that the things that are in my head. that
are important for success or overcoming adversity,
but also a bit of the behind the scenes kind
of chaos. I mean, we've been to some places,
haven't we? Oh my gosh. We've been to Liverpool.
Yeah. We've recorded in London, Birmingham. Yeah.
The middle of Leeds, obviously. On a houseboat.
On a houseboat, yeah. Guiseley. Guiseley, we
have been to Guiseley. And yeah, it's all the
hotspots. Basically, we've been. And because
you have a mobile studio, what I've learned as
a psychologist, post -COVID actually, was that
the whole virtual world was a real asset for
having any kind of coaching discussion. Because
instead of going into someone's work environment
where they're a bit kind of formal and... they're
going off into a room with someone to have a
chat about their career. They're at home with
their feet up, having a cup of tea. I'm at my
home, having a cup of tea. And you get into things
so much quicker. So I think the fact that we
were able to go into their homes, I mean, but
we have been a little bit like the Phil and Kirsty
of podcasting, haven't we? Because we've enjoyed
it. We're really bad because we go into a place
and we're like, oh, I love that picture. Where
do you get it? And instantly. We're commenting
on somebody's house, which I always think that,
Nick, this is dangerous territory. But I think
we're very good. Any of our guests listening
that are thinking, oh, my gosh, what did they
say about my house? Honestly, we're just looking
for things that we can steal in terms of great
ideas and interior design hacks, aren't we? That's
what we're looking at. Interestingly, Simone
on a barge in the middle of Liverpool has the
same bathroom fixings. as I do in my house in
the middle of Leeds. Wowzers. I couldn't believe
it. I did actually tell her as well. She was
not really... She wasn't impressed. She didn't
want to engage in that conversation. Bless her.
I don't, you know, completely see why. When we
went to see Zoe Gascoigne in HMRC, I mean, walking
into HMRC, like the tax office, I think you always
feel like they're going to get you. They're going
to scan you and they're going to go... Oh, hang
on a minute. What was with this return in 2007?
Yes. You know, somehow they'll extract. Some
biometrics, like scanning our eyeballs. Exactly.
Yeah, definitely. So that was a bit nerve -wracking.
I think we were both kind of walking around on
eggshells. But then she showed us all of these
really cool rooms in this big, glamorous corridor
where they had all of the... kind of oldie -worldie
setups of... Yeah, that place was incredible
because I just assumed it would be in a 60s building,
which was a bit leaky, a bit smelly maybe, in
the middle of Liverpool. But it wasn't. I mean,
it was a grand, what, 1600s, 1700s kind of building?
Yeah. With an amazing... Archie kind of roof
that was really ornate. I mean, the whole place,
I mean, it felt a bit MI5 -ish. Yeah, it did.
Didn't it? It did. I mean, I've never been into
MI5. But that's how you imagine it from the Bond
movies. Yes. And I think that fits with Zoe because
she was really vibrant and different compared
to how you imagine someone who works for the
tax office. So I think that whole day was really
cool. It was a great day. We were in Liverpool,
just on HMRC, something that's just reminded
me. I don't know why. The urinals were amazing
in there. Were they? Yeah. Well, I can't really
comment. Well, you didn't go in, obviously. Government
building. They would have shut you down. Yes.
Right away. But no, have you ever been into like
a really old Victorian pub? Oh, yes. And again,
you won't have seen these, but they tend to have
like the really old ones tend to have the original
urinals there, which had like just like a huge
piece of porcelain moulded against the wall.
And it was like that in there. Amazing urinals.
Wow. Very clean as well. Well, you'd hope so.
Yeah, I mean, attention to detail is what we
expect of our tax officers, I think. Exactly.
And also, I was going to make a joke about taking
the... But I'm not going to. It's not necessary.
It's not necessary, is it? So, well, let's have
a little look at some of the kind of key themes,
because I think there's three big things that
have really struck me that these women have in
common. And so it'd be quite good to just highlight
those. And then maybe we can give a little bit
of an insight into the women themselves as we
go through. Because the first thing that's really
struck me about. So I anticipated before we started
that they were all going to tell me that they'd
never really planned to end up where they were.
It had been a really kind of interesting and
changeable route. And that was going to be the
message of it, I suppose, that it doesn't matter
where you are now because you can navigate your
way to a better place. I thought that was going
to be one of the key takeaways. But actually,
that's a smaller part of what I've heard from
them. I think the first thing that's really struck
me is that all of these women have this really
strong sense of purpose. Like they really are
trying to do something meaningful. And that in
some cases, like Lisa Shepard, who was our first
episode, she just wanted to create an environment
where working mums could have meaningful jobs
around the school run. Yeah, and it's a huge
problem for most women. And then it begs the
question, why is it just the women? Yes. Doesn't
it? Yeah. She told that story, didn't she, about
her business partner in her previous job had
turned up late one day and being chastised for
it. Yeah. But she at the time had two young children,
didn't have a car, had been taking them to school
on the bus and then taking public transport into
work. And so by the time she arrived at work
at five past nine or whatever, she'd already
done like two hours. of quite stressful activity.
And there's no acknowledgement of that. So that
really meant something to Lisa, that she wanted
to kind of stop that nonsense and do it differently.
And she talked about having, you know, business
gurus telling her she was doing the wrong thing
and it would never work. And I mean, she's testament,
her and Saskia are, to the fact that... that
person was talking nonsense probably. But then
we get that other side of the purpose where it's
actually trying to kind of make an impact on
bigger things in the world. So someone that really
sticks in my mind is Siobhan Blake with that,
where, you know, she's the chief crown prosecutor
for violent crimes against women and girls. And
her sense of purpose was really strong, wasn't
it? I found that fascinating because in a way,
Walking into that chat was very much what I assumed
the HMRC one would be like. It was very kind
of like bland government building, quite dowdy,
not really had much money spent on it. In fact,
I think the CPS were the only... It was a huge
high -rise building in the middle of Birmingham.
Yes. And I think the CPS were the only firm in
there. Maybe, yeah. I think they were. By the
way, we should just point out your dog snoring.
Oh, yeah. I do have a beagle. So apologies for
that. She spends her time either snoring or stealing
food. They're the only two activities of a beagle.
I just thought we better mention that. They didn't
think it was me. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, back
to the CPS and Siobhan. And I don't know her
and I didn't know quite what to expect. But the
story she told, the journey that she'd been on.
Just how she copes working in that environment
where bad things are going on and there are awful
stories, there are awful things happening to
normal, nice people and how she deals with that.
And that was pretty incredible to hear. Yeah.
And I think that's why I wanted to speak to her
because I've worked with Siobhan for a number
of years. So she's one of the guests that I actually
do know from my other career as a psychologist.
And I just have always looked at her from afar
and thought, how do you stay sane in this work?
And so it was a real opportunity to ask that
question because I was personally really intrigued.
And her answer made a lot of sense. Let's have
a listen to what she said about why she does.
Terrible things happen in the world and you are
profoundly aware of that. And when your day job
is to run towards some of those really bad things,
you have to feel you're doing that with a sense
of purpose, I think. And so what I tried to do
was... always do the job, whatever that job was,
as well as I possibly could. And I suppose it
goes back to that sense of justice. And I felt
like I could play a very small part in hopefully
balancing up that sense of justice. And I've
always tried to make sure that I've reminded
myself that what I do in my day job is a very,
very concentrated. vision of the world out there.
And there are lots and lots and lots of people
out there who will do miraculous things every
day to help each other. And the strange thing
about criminal law is you really do see both
the best and the worst sides of the human condition
on your desk every single day. I can genuinely
say I have seen acts of incredible heroism undertaken
by Just people who got up that morning to go
about a very normal life and they just happened
to end up in a situation where bad things were
happening and their instinct was to help and
support and protect. And I find that quite incredible.
And that may be when you look at it in the round,
you try and focus on the wonderful things you
see about the human condition whilst thinking
you are going to help. maybe hopefully regain
the balance as far as the really awful things
that you see. I suppose it gives you a level
of realism about how deeply cruel people can
be to each other. But on the other side, you
do see people do remarkable things and you see
people survive incredibly negative experiences
and traumatic experiences and go on to... build
from that truly amazing either lives as individuals
or they take that experience and they channel
it into something positive. So I suppose it is
just trying to see the positives in it and also
constantly keeping a real focus on the fact that
hopefully I can. assist and support and create
a little bit of balance when these things do
happen. So I'm contributing something. What a
perspective that is. It's ace, isn't it? And
I think, using the word ace there, just showing
my age. Yeah, it is. It's really ace. I think
that whole combination of I'm doing something
where I feel like I'm making a difference. I
think that's a real fuel that I heard in so many
of the women. I think a lot of the things that
they do, the pursuits they have, whether they're
in business or making a difference to justice
or saving lives in the charity people that we've
spoken to or playing cricket for the country
or they were escaping the war in the Ukraine,
this need to do something that matters to them
is like a fuel. And so I think that's a really
core part that I've learned from them, that if
you're going to do something, it's probably going
to be hard. So it has to really mean something
to you in order to get you through the difficult
moments and the hard days. And then she talks
about that positive thinking, which is a tactic
for getting through the hard days, isn't it?
So she's immersed in all of this. What does she
say? How cruel people can be to each other. But
then she is looking, actively looking for the
moments of heroism and the moments of kindness.
thoughtful or saves a life or you know serves
justice and that's cool yeah i mean i guess it's
a bit like alan partridge of course i was thinking
the same in that do you remember that where um
something bad happened to him and he says lynn
i've had a negative i need Two more positives,
one just to get me back to square one and one
just so I've got a positive, you know. But in
a way, it's that, you know, you cling on to the
good stuff because you do know that will get
you through. And I suppose in a way, we kind
of all experienced that in some way during COVID,
didn't we? Because it was all unsettling, what's
going on? You know, we were all having that kind
of, oh, my word, this is awful kind of experience.
But we all clung on to the, well, at least, the
sun's out it was lovely wasn't it do you remember
um or look at this i managed to get some beer
mail order hooray um kind of thing and i you
know obviously very different to that and i'm
making light of it and i i don't mean to in a
in an awful way but i guess it it's that isn't
it and and crikey she must have to do that because
some of the stuff that must turn up on her desk
must be Yeah, awful. And then I think that, like
you say, we've all experienced that COVID adversity.
And probably the people that fared best mentally,
mental health wise, are the ones that were able
to find some positives in that. I think it is
that need to balance the bad with the good. And
look at who would have thought Alan Partridge
would... be some great psychological philosopher
but there you go there you go you see that's
the partridge power yeah isn't it um but it feeds
into the next thing so that sense of purpose
really strong in all of them and then the next
thing and this is the bit the bit that's in my
head i think is that you kind of look at people
who have achieved something and i think it's
really easy to think it's been easy for them.
Like they had some special route that they were
able to take that wasn't open to the rest of
us, or they had some special skills or talents
that made them different and better. And that
they had a confidence to do it and go for it.
But what I'm hearing is that that's not the way
round it works. That these women all talked about
the fear and how scary it was. to step into opportunities
or do something novel and new. They were all
feeling the same emotions as everyone else. I
think the difference is they see that courage
comes before confidence. Yeah, I see what you're
saying there. Yeah. And that's kind of, I'm disappointed
with myself that I hadn't spotted that earlier,
if I'm honest, because I think, you know, in
my profession, I maybe should have. But they've
really brought that home to me, that idea that...
That thinking maybe I can instead of maybe I
can't, that's the thing that I think is quite
different about them. So, I mean, let's listen
to Ray Hanna. Oh, yeah. So Ray Hanna, here she
is. She's a young woman in the motor trade. So
that sounded cool. That's why I wanted to speak
to her. But she has such an old head on her shoulders
in terms of she's such a kind of deep, insightful
person. I felt like she was really... teaching
me something so let's have a listen to what she
says about that that confidence and belief in
yourself will will see you through to where you
want to go because if you give up you're not
going to take those steps that you would have
taken if you believed in yourself so it would
be to to really believe in yourself and believe
that if if you really want that and you if that's
what you really desire that's your goal you can
achieve it So she is saying, she's not saying,
hey, I had massive belief and that's why I've
done it. She is saying, if you don't try, if
you don't take the steps and have a go, then
you'll never know what you could have achieved
if you'd have believed in yourself. So that's
that whole thing of, don't worry about whether
you believe in yourself now, just act as if you
do and see what happens. I mean, that is a heck
of a bit of advice, isn't it? Because... It's
almost what it is saying, turn off the negative
voices in your head and just do it. Yeah. Which
is such a hard thing for any of us to do, isn't
it? And the fact that that's kind of her mantra,
maybe not mantra, but that's what her thought
process is. I mean, that is almost like kind
of military grade thought processing, isn't it?
Yeah, it is. And it must be a really learned
habit. And I think, I mean, she talked quite
a bit about her childhood and her dad's Iranian
and the way she'd grown up and they'd been kind
of given this environment where they were supposed
to compete and have a bit of constructive conflict
and a bit of argy -bargy and that was normal
in the house. And I think it's made her a very
robust person. Again, her story wasn't just about...
because she is a female, there was a whole layer
of story there about her name and her heritage
and how... One of the things, I don't know why
it stuck with me, but it did, is that she used
a more anglicised name when applying for jobs.
Well, she walked into places as well, didn't
she? So she didn't send her CV because her name,
she thought, well, it just sounds too Asian.
And so I'll just walk in and speak to them. Yeah.
And that's smart. It's smart. It's also sad.
Oh, yeah, it's sad. Isn't it? It is sad. Because
why would that, you know, I have to say, sometimes
I think I live in this kind of shadow of the
90s world where it's like, everything's going
to be fine. Let's just treat everyone the same.
And that didn't work out. And it kind of still
shocks me that we don't live in that society
right now. In fact, we're probably going backwards,
which is sad. You know, that really stuck with
me, that story. Can I just say one thing about
Rihanna? Yes. You're going to talk about the
cat. The cat. She had a hairless cat in her house.
She did. And I've never stroked a hairless cat.
And, you know, the thing that really... Took
me by surprise there. Yeah. Was that it was slightly
fuzzy. As if it was trying to grow hair. Yeah.
And it was almost like mossy. Yes. And that bore
me for six. I was not expecting that. Because
I just thought it would be skin. Yeah. Right?
Yeah. It's not skin. Yeah. Fuzzy. Fuzzy. Yeah.
And these are the highlights that are going on
behind the podcast scenes. I know. Aren't they?
She also had really nice deep carpets. Yeah.
You know, in Die Hard, where he puts his feet
in the rug. Oh, yeah, in order to get over the
stress of the flying. Yeah. Yeah. They were that
level of rug. Yeah. Yeah. And I enjoyed that.
I mean, she was a very glamorous lady. Massively
glamorous. Yeah, she's one of those people that
you stand next to and you just immediately feel
just a bit dowdy. Even as a guy, yes. Really
need to up my game here. One more thing, she
provided us with cakes. She did, yes. Actually,
we've had quite a lot of cakes and biscuits offered.
We have. Yes. Keep listening for more inside
cake info. So, yeah, so that's that whole thing.
So I think that, so she was very cool in terms
of that courage before confidence. But I think
another thing that struck me in terms of that
tactical stuff is that most of the women don't
take no for an answer. So there are kind of a
bit, there's a bit of a bolshie steeliness inside
them. And so many of them, they come over so
lovely and kind and warm. And we'll talk about
their style of leadership in a moment, which
is actually very kind and compassionate, which
is another thing that stood out. So they do come
over with that warmth, all of them. However,
when we dug a bit deeper, you kind of hear like,
so Dr. Catherine Scott, when she talked about
all the gauntlet throwing down and don't tell
me no, that was something that struck me about
these women is that they don't allow themselves
to be told, you can't do this because you're
a woman. You can't do this because you've got
a Northern accent. You can't do this because
you have an Asian name. They kind of just go,
whatever. Yeah. And I mean, that is brave. Yeah.
You know, that is just complete bravery, isn't
it? Because I mean, you're the psychologist.
Tell me what percentage of the population would
just accept that and crack on in a different
direction? Probably most of us. Yeah, I would
say so. I'd be guessing. I don't know if there's
been any actual research done, but I think, you
know, we are primed. to see the negative and
we are primed to avoid risk. So I think the logic
would follow that most of us would step away
from that kind of obstacle and barrier for fear
of falling on our face. Well, run completely
in the opposite direction, surely. You know,
you just don't want to go there and be proved
wrong, do you? No. And I think being able to
turn that off and say, I'm going to do it anyway.
I mean, in Catherine's... You know, wasn't it
against, she was told no by somebody in government?
Yeah. So Catherine, so Catherine was, she called
herself like the unexpected CEO, didn't she?
But fundamentally she's a scientist, a microbiologist.
So she studied cancer and she saw some really
clear things. I think she saw that. Early diagnosis
was really critical. And then exercise was really
critical. And they've become two of her things.
And then she kind of had these really audacious
goals, like, well, let's just get scanners going
out and around the towns of the UK and get people
early diagnosed with breast cancer and things.
And of course, the government went, well, that's
a logistical nightmare and it would cost us a
fortune and we can't do it. But she just wasn't
prepared to go, oh, okay, fair enough, you make
a valid point. She just went, well, I'm going
to prove the case and then you can't not do it.
Yeah. Just let's hear her talk about that because
I think that's a really cool clip. He gave me
the freedom. and the confidence. Okay, Catherine,
if you think going and putting some scanners
in lorries is the right thing to do, you go and
build it and then come back and tell me what
it looks like. So build it in a theoretical sense,
then come back and tell me what it looks like.
Okay, if you think this is a good idea, prove
it. And all that gauntlet throwing down just
is perfect for me because I love a challenge.
And again, when central government didn't want
us to do some of the things that we were doing.
Because it would give them a headache later on
down the line if we proved them to be successful.
That's even more gauntlet throwing down. So she
was talking there about her boss at the time
who had given her the permission, really, to
go and prove it. So to prove the case in Yorkshire.
And then that would put pressure on central government
to do something more nationally. And that's exactly
what's happened. And then with the exercise,
she's opened up all of these wellbeing centres
where... people with cancer or post -cancer are
going to get fit and keep fit. And, you know,
just that's someone who's really changing health
outcomes, saving lives, because she just wouldn't
be told no. And I can hear that in a lot of the
women that, you know, on a very micro level,
just being told, well, you can't sit there because
that's where the solicitors sit and being like,
I am a solicitor, jog on. From that kind of level
to central government saying, no, all right,
well, let's see if we can prove them wrong. Let's
see if we can pressurise them to do it. And that's
bold and brave, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And actually,
when you think about it, you know, society needs
these people, like desperately. Yeah. Because
there are too many of us probably that would
just go, OK. Yeah. I'll go and get lunch then.
And we need those people because I think, you
know, as a society, we'd probably fall down pretty
quickly if there weren't these brave, bold people,
women especially, out there breaking down the
barriers. Yeah. In all sorts of ways. Yes. Yeah.
And I think, you know, I've worked in the media,
darling, for many years. And I think it's always,
I find it fascinating meeting famous, notable
people or people that have done something amazing.
You know, people that have broken records, people
that are in charge of huge organisations or whatever
it may be. It sounds like a cliche, but they
are always just normal people. We're all capable
of doing these amazing things. Are we sort of
discovering with these women that we're speaking
to? How to take the brakes off for us all. That's
what I hope we're doing. And I think there has
been some really great, big research done on
this. So into things like the growth mindset
where. that principle has been proven. So we
know that the brain has all this neuroplasticity
and can change and adapt and learn and become
bigger and better throughout our lives. In fact,
right up until the end of our lives, it still
has the ability to improve, which does give us
this amazing potential. So I think that has been
proven. And I think what I want to try and distill
is the tactics for how you, yeah, like you say,
I love that. Take the brakes off because that
is the thing. And like I said at the beginning,
the doubts that pop into my head when I'm feeling
a bit fed up or tired or is why am I doing this
podcast? Is anybody listening? And those people
listening, are they enjoying it or are they just
thinking, well, you're just annoying and this
is all nonsense. There's nothing coming out of
it. And that's the that's the boxing shadows
that goes on in everybody's head. And what I'm
hearing from these women is, oh, we all have
that. Don't worry about that. That's fine. Just
ride it out. Self -talk yourself down and just
keep moving. And I think that's just. Well, it's
blowing my mind a little bit because it's so
simple and yet so hard at the same time. Yeah,
isn't it? Yeah. It really is. So can we play
the clip of Lauren? So Lauren York. So here she's
UK location. So she does all these big glamorous
houses for TV productions and things like that.
But I think she was probably one of the most
honest in terms of imposter syndrome and self
-doubt. But she had some really nice insights
into her tactics. So let's just share that because
I think she had some really cool things to say.
With the new element of the business that we're
about to, well, I'm working on now, we're going
to launch next year. Like I said, the feelings
of imposter syndrome have come in again. And
then also the anxiety around, will it work? Won't
it work? Can I do it? You know, all those kind
of things. And that happened over kind of like
a three week period. And I wasn't sleeping properly.
I was allowing it to kind of infiltrate my whole
life basically and I took a step back from it
and I had a word with a friend of mine who's
a psychologist and I just she really helped me
put it into perspective and reframe how I feel
about it and so I now see it that it's a project
that I'm working on. it might work, it might
not work, but I will give it my best shot. There's
productive worry and there's unproductive worry.
You know, so if I'm worrying about something
overnight and I get out of bed and I write, is
it productive worry? If it is productive worry,
I then put a date to it. So I will do this by
then. So I know that I'm going to do that. If
it's unproductive worry, I put it in another
column and I put my values to it. So say, for
example, it's this will never work if that's
one of my unproductive worries I will look at
that and I think it might not work but I'm going
to give it my best shot because that is one of
my values like I I want to do it so much and
I have a passion and an interest to do it so
much so that if it doesn't work at least I've
tried at least I've given it my all Practical
advice. Yeah, really practical. And I think that
whole so I think what we've discussed so far,
it's all about that mindset is really key to
success, isn't it? So having a really clear purpose
that means something to you is like fuel. But
then you have to have that mindset of don't take
no for an answer. You don't have to be comfortable
and confident. You don't have to have high self
-belief to start. Just get going. Keep moving.
And then along the way, as Lauren quite honestly
says, is every new and novel thing I try brings
back that feeling of, oh, my goodness, can I
do this? I can't. Maybe I can't. And then having
that really practical, tactical way of going,
right, what am I actually worrying about? And
what am I going to do about that? And using your
intellect against your emotion. And I think that's
really powerful stuff. And heart. I mean, you
know, emotions are like... Oh, yeah. You know,
they're an unstoppable tide at times, aren't
they, your emotions? And you've said this so
many times on the podcast, you know, with anxiety,
it's your... monkey brain trying to keep you
safe basically isn't it you know all these sort
of things and it's so hard to do though and which
is why again and i know we've kind of made this
point but why a lot of these women are just awe
-inspiring because they are pushing against those
Yeah. And I think what's been really nice to
hear, I think we've had a few people. So we had
Holly Colvin, who was ex -England cricketer,
who was basically doing a dream job and then
found it wasn't making her happy. And so went
on and found something better to do. But quite
freely admitted that that took a long time, that
transition and the guilt she felt about not doing
the dream job kept her in it. And then in the
final episode, we had Bianca, who was in a really
toxic environment where people were treating
her quite badly and it was making her sick. She
had a panic attack. They had to call an ambulance.
But still, she said, oh, but I stayed far too
long. So I think that's quite reassuring because
I think, yeah, our emotions are powerful and
they are sticky and they want us to listen to
them, don't they? And we do. But I don't think
we have to beat ourselves up about the fact we've
listened to them or maybe we listened to them
for a bit too long. I think it's just that at
some point we have to move forward and that's
what's coming over from these women. Just don't
sit in it forever. Just on Lauren, her office
was three flights of stairs up. It was. This
is something that obviously never gets mentioned
in any of the episodes is that some of them involve
a lot of stairs, a lot of stairs. I've got a
lot of stuff. There are cameras, there are microphones,
sometimes there are soundboards. We've not bothered
with them in the kitchen today, in Leona's kitchen.
So it might be a bit echoey, but that's fine.
Your kitchen is up a lot of stairs. But that
office, man. It was so far up in the sky. It
was. It was. I was like, oh, my word. What are
you trying to do to me? You worked hard that
day. But you're always working really hard because
we always have this half hour at the beginning
of the podcast where me and the guests are just
having a cup of tea and probably some biscuits
or cakes. Yeah. And it's all really lovely. And
we're just talking about what we might chat about.
Or maybe not. Maybe just talking about where
we're going on holiday. And you're just like
grafting and there's wires going everywhere.
That's fine. What I'm worried about in that situation,
which we have, this is what not. we've never
talked about this, is that you're going to use
all of the good stuff up. Yeah. You know, I'm
genuinely, which is why I'm going so fast, because
I'm like, I've got to get all this set up before,
there's Bagel walking past, we've got to get
all this set up before you hit like this amazing
vein of rich. stuff yeah that will only occur
once and won't get talked about in the actual
podcast that's why i'm going so fast yeah yeah
quite right i mean keep you on your toes well
it's a good motivational tactic which brings
us on to the final insight which is about so
if all the other stuff is about how these women
think I think the final bit that's really struck
me is how they do what they do, how they lead.
And that came over as being really empowering
leadership style, a lot of kindness, a lot of
compassion. We had Rebecca Oliver Mooney from
the co -op who was talking about making people
feel they belong and inclusivity and all that.
kind of great stuff, didn't we? And obviously
Bianca, who left that toxic environment, retrained
and now goes back in and tries to change workplaces
and make them better. So a lot of these women
are really actively trying to improve the experience
of others at work. And I think what... What encapsulates
that most was Professor Beverly Alamo -Metcalf,
who I fangirled over, didn't I? It was a bit
embarrassing. It was a little bit embarrassing.
It wasn't. I've loved her for many years. She
came along with her daughter, Juliet, and they're
both brilliant. But she does this whole thing
about how, I mean, it makes me feel like my mum's
telling me what to do. Just play the clips that
hopefully people will feel the same when Beverly
tells you how you should treat people at work.
I think there's a deep moral and ethical... responsibility
for anybody, any leadership position, supervisor,
team lead, actually any human being to be aware
that your expectations of me or other people
in your team will have a powerful impact on my
belief in myself. And psychology, time after
time after time, provides evidence that if we
have negative expectations of people, we will
only see the negatives. They won't perform as
effectively if we have... positive expectations
and so much so that people who are supported
by bosses or team leads who have positive expectations
of them surprise themselves in what they can
achieve because there's so much self -confidence
and respect that that is transmitted as well
as I believe you can do this you know I also
respect I value you you're unique this is critical
what you do So all that is transferred in that.
And that's what leadership is all about. I mean,
that makes me like in parallel sit up straight,
but also it brings a bit of a tear to my eye,
like a lump to my throat. It has like that kind
of impact of this is how we should all behave
and this is how we should all treat each other.
And I think she just gave us all a bit of a reminder.
didn't she, of how much we can affect the people
around us. Yeah. That's one of the strong things
that I think, not just from Bev's episode, but
there's a few others. And do you know, I can't
put my finger on which ones. You'll go, oh, it
was this one or that one or the other one. But
where how we are does have an effect on the world
around us. And I think we possibly, a lot of
us, float through life just thinking, you know,
this is just me and, you know, I'm not really
having that much of an impact anywhere. But actually,
just by nature of being in a room with other
people and being alive, you do. You are influencing
your experience of the world, aren't you? I remember
years ago, a psychologist, a fellow psychologist
saying to me, oh, it's the difference between
a Disney day. And an awful day. So on a Disney
day, you get up, the sun's shining, your neighbour
says hello, you get into work, somebody's brought
doughnuts in because it's someone's birthday.
And the day's just a dream. It's great. You know,
there's like little birds flapping around your
head. And then on another day you get up and
it's raining and your umbrella breaks and the
bus is late and you get into work and the person
you were meeting has called in sick and you just
think this day just needs to quit. It's a no
smoking sign. On your cigarette break. It is.
It's not ironic. Or very Alanis Morissette. Or
very Alanis Morissette. And then the real mind
-blowing thing is that's probably you. So you
get up on that day and maybe the sunshine puts
you in a good mood, but you leave your house
smiling. That's why your neighbour says hello.
Oh, wow! Whoa! Yeah. OK. So you start to actually
predict your experience of the day because you
go out and your head is up and you're looking
around and you're noticing things and you're
in a good mood and there's a song in your head
and the world responds. And then you get up on
that like bad day and you go out, your head's
down, your neighbour's there. They might wave
to you, but you don't see it. So, so much of
our experience of life we're doing to ourselves.
It feels like my whole entire life has been a
lie. Wow. I know, I know. But like you say, emotions
are hard, so I can still get up on a grumpy day
and my... intelligent brain my non -emotional
brain will be saying well if you just put yourself
in a good mood this is going to be a much nicer
experience leona and i just tell it to sod off
basically because i'm in a grump and i feel quite
justified in that grump and so i stay in it on
purpose so i think yeah emotions are sticky we
like them When we're angry, we feel justified
being angry. When we're sad, we feel sorry for
ourselves. So it's really hard to climb out of
that. That's the thing, isn't it? I mean, you
know, not a lot of us will admit it, but some
days it's nice to be angry. Why is that? Am I
crazy? Am I crazy? I think we like, human beings
like to be right. We like to be right. We have
a high need for like competence. So I think if
somebody said something or done something that's
angered us. Well, we'll find people to talk to
that agree with us. Yeah. And so that reinforces
that feeling. And if we can't find someone to
agree with us, we just agree with ourselves in
our own head. Right. And we just tell ourselves
that it was absolutely awful and it's not fair
and blah, blah, blah. And if you stop and try
and think about the other person's perspective,
it's really hard. You don't want to acknowledge
that you might have upset them or they might
not have meant it. Right. Because you feel that
pain of whatever they said and did. And so you
feel really justified. So it's all really complicated.
I mean, we are, for want of a better expression,
all slightly effed up, aren't we? Oh, yeah, completely.
Isn't it glorious? It's glorious. It's lovely.
And that's why looking for those little life
hacks. And I think that's what these women are
giving us, little life hacks. And even they are
saying, I am not doing all of this all the time.
like I am having like Lauren I'm having my bad
days I'm having my stressors I'm having to speak
to my mate who's a psychologist to be reminded
of what I need to do so we're all having those
dips and that's okay so long as we know how to
climb out of the dip even if it's hard to climb
out of the dip can I remind you of something
that almost gave me a very bad day go on uh so
uh Beverly, Alamo Metcalf. The cafe. We were
in a cafe and we were searching for a venue to
speak to Beverly, who I think, by the way, I
saw going for a haircut the other day. Amazing.
Even big wig psychologists. I mean, big wig.
Why did I choose that? I have to have a haircut.
They have to keep their hair looking good. And
she went to a hairdresser's near my house. Did
think about waving, but then I thought, I just
don't. One of those. Anyway, we were looking
for a venue to talk to Beverly in, weren't we?
Yeah. And we decided on your sister's lovely
cafe in Guiseley. Bramble Bakehouse. Shout out.
Shout out. And it seemed perfect. There was a
space downstairs. We could keep it to ourselves.
Great little room. And we started recording.
Well, I tell you what, have a listen to this.
This is your first question to Beverly. This
is her answering that first question. It was
definitely from school. I went to a kind of strict
convent school in Wimbledon. And every fortnight
we had marks. in front of the whole school. 600
girls were in the main hall and we were called
by each form to come forward. And then those
people who had A average over the previous form
might get clapped. Anyway, she was telling us
about her school days there. Yeah, yeah. And
it was quite interesting because actually I think
it sort of gave us the basis for why she is the
person that she is. Oh, but more than that, I
mean, she's a professor. of psychology and she
was telling us about being one of the underperforming
students at school and how scarring that would
be. Yeah, absolutely. However... That's not what
you're talking about, is it? What happened actually
in reality there was that more or less everything
started happening upstairs in the cafe. You'll
get what I mean when I play the clip. Coffee
machine already. School. It was definitely from
school. I went to a straight convent school in
Melbourne. That was annoying. And every fortnight
we had marks in front of the whole school. 600
girls. We're in the main hall and we were called
by each form to come forward. And then those
people who had A average over the previous fortnight
get clapped. You might even say it on that clip.
If we'd have just had a siren, then we'd have
ticked all the boxes for kind of noise interference.
Like, you know, a load of scouts turning up.
Rattling tins. You know, it just all went off.
And I'm like, oh, no, this is really bad. But
that's when I realised that having you on board
was a real asset because... like you made it
all go away it all went away but it was very
funny and i think that was only our second interview
it was and it's quite and it's a weird thing
when you're sitting there talking to somebody
and especially somebody that i mean i really
admire beverly and so i wanted to be at my best
and look my best and then all of a sudden i could
hear this chaos going on and my anxiety is going
up in me and i'm having to like talk myself off
the ledge of just like panic yeah because she's
still talking and i'm trying to look really interested
yeah but yeah Yeah, absolutely. It was all going
on. It was. We need to talk about locations really
quickly. We talked about barges. We talked about
HMRC. Rom, who we mentioned very briefly there,
her house was amazing. Yeah. In the middle of
nowhere. Middle of nowhere. Beautiful house.
It's the sort of house that you can just imagine
drinking a lot of red wine in. That might just
be me. Yeah. But it was like... I was just imagining
getting snowed in. Yeah. Like you ain't getting
out of there, are you? Fire on, red wine. Yeah.
Life's good. Amazing. But that has been the privilege
really, hasn't it? That we have been in other
people's homes and we've been able to sort of
see how they live. Yes. I mean, Bianca had a
tree in her house. Inside her house, a tree.
Well, she was in Rothwell. Oh, maybe. I feel
that is how Rothwell FM's jingle would go. Rothwell
FM. Very unassuming terrace house in, we think,
Rothwell. Yes. But you went in and there was
a tree in it. It's like walking into one of those
fancy Chinese restaurants. Yes. With like a big
blossom tree in there. Gorgeous. Loved it. Loved
it. What was your personal highlight on location?
I think it was probably Lady Isabella, the houseboat
with Simone. That was crackers. It was great.
And because I have a narrowboat, I just had house
envy or boat envy. It was a Dutch wide barge,
wasn't it? It was a wide barge, not a narrowboat.
Very difficult, like twice the width. Yeah. Lucky
girl. And I think that's probably the most danger
I felt simultaneously since we've been doing
this because you had, you know, it's parked.
moored, sorry, sorry, captain, moored by the
side of the harbour. And you have to step over
the water onto the barge. And I'm there with
a bag that probably weighs about 10 kilos, rucksack
on, and a bag that weighs a bit less with the
lights in. And I just suddenly went unbalanced.
And I just thought, oh, this would be really
bad if I fell in. And psychology... Lady. Yeah.
Here we go. This is where you kick in. OK. Why
do we do that? Like we suddenly go, oh, my God,
imagine if you fell in. Yeah. No, we do that.
Well, we do that on purpose. There was a piece
of research done where they said there's a phenomena
where people who don't have kids in particular,
I think it happens to. But if let's say you're
an aunt or an uncle and so your brother or sister
hands you their baby. And you think, oh, I'm
going to jump and drop it. And it's a really
common phenomena. But when they researched it,
what they said was that those people who have
that thought hold the baby tighter. Okie dokie.
Right, fine. So the brain is going, this is the
biggest risk here. You might just drop this.
I mean, it wasn't about the weight, Nick, was
it? It was about all the amazing gadgets inside
those bags. I don't want to get unwet. Just all
of your precious things. Yeah, my things. You
didn't want to get those things wet. And so,
yeah, when we think that, it is highlighting
the risk, biggest risk, which makes us take evasive
action. Okay, interesting. So, yeah, I think
there is a good reason for that. So if you think
I'm going to drop the baby, it's okay, take the
baby. Yeah, just don't drop it. Just don't drop
it, yes. We need to talk before we shuffle off
this end of... series episode about the next
series because we've already done some work on
it and I think we think what's going to be the
first episode of the new series is jaw dropping
yes we interviewed this week didn't we Tara Howell
and so she broke her neck when she fell off her
horse and is now paralysed from the shoulders
down and Oh, my gosh. So there was two things,
I think. One, her decision to choose to not let
it ruin her life and her mental toughness was
just awe -inspiring. Unbelievable. I don't know
if I'd be able to do what she's done. I mean,
it's just wow. But then her description of the
accident and her stay in hospital... we were
both speechless weren't we I've never heard anybody
describe the accident and I'm not talking about
her I mean in general when you hear people talking
about what's happened to them I've never heard
it described in in in the way that she does yeah
All right, Bagel, snoring there. Sorry. She found
it boring. She found it really boring. And then
there's some stuff which went on in the hospital,
not from a medical point of view, from a psychological
point of view. And we're not talking about the
story that we've heard quite a lot from, you
know, and it's still incredible, people that
literally get back on their feet again or at
least attempt to get back on their feet again
after such an injury. I can't even describe it.
No. It's what was going through her head as she
was lying in intensive care. And I promise you,
you will not have heard anything like this before.
No. It genuinely will stay with me for the rest
of my life. Yeah. And just... You know, if anyone
is like me out there thinking, oh, my goodness,
is she going to be talking about moving towards
the light and seeing all her family? No, it wasn't
that. No, it wasn't that. It was something very,
very different. And just, yeah, I don't know
what to say without actually saying it. And I
don't want to take her words away. So let's.
So series two. There you go. Just quickly, because
I know we've got to stop talking. But one of
the things I really like about you is that you
call it a series and not a season. Well, you've
told me to. I know. Because series is British.
Exactly. Yes. Bring back the series. Come on,
the British. And now that the Americans are tariffing
us all over the place and lobbing hypothetical
grenades at us, let's not use their terminology.
No. Let's stick to our own. Series. We are the
Brits. Yeah. Yeah, so we're going to have a bit
of a break. We're going to have a bit of a break
before the next series where we just need to
just interview the next group of people. But
there's some fabulous people as well as Tara.
We've got the chief executive of Candlelighters,
who are the charity that look after children
with cancer. And my niece having just come through
her leukemia journey at age five. That's very
close to my heart and the work that. Emily and
the candlelighters do. So I think that's going
to be a bit of a tearjerker. And then we also
have, we've just signed up Sarah Sowerby, who
does this whole thing about women in pharma.
And she educated me about this whole idea of
a beyond bikini medicine, which is this idea
that in the medical world, women are treated
exactly the same as men from a medical point
of view, apart from anything that happens below
the bikini. Which is complete nonsense. And she
was saying pretty much every cell in our body
is different. And women are mainly oestrogen,
men are mainly testosterone. And then she sent
me this chart where it showed 22 different medical
conditions where women have a different experience
than men. So, I mean, that is going to be really,
really fascinating to dig into that and the work
that her and her pharmaceutical... um women are
doing so yeah some really cool stuff yeah and
more people that we've got you know some of the
people in the pipeline are really exciting oh
yeah very not exciting but you know there's uh
there's there's some potentially they're not
confirmed are they so we can't it's aspirational
but yes we're gonna we're gonna try and we're
gonna try and capture A big fish. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Like it. Yes. Let's do that. But it's been good.
Yeah, it has. I've enjoyed it. Me too. I've learned
something. Thanks ever so much to everyone that's
been listening. It's been great to be on this
journey with you and looking forward to bringing
more wonderful women your way. Look at that alliteration.
That was lovely. I don't even notice. I'm sorry.
Bye.