Hi, I'm psychologist and author Leona Deakin,
and this is Leadership Journeys, where I delve
into the minds of inspirational women to find
out what makes them tick. Last week, we heard
from Rebecca Oliver Mooney, or ROM. She's the
head of commercial at the co -op and the founder
of Raising the Glass. And she talked about how
understanding yourself and others really is the
key to being a great boss. This week on Leadership
Journeys... I was working for one business. It
was a very toxic culture. I hit a real low, one
of the worst points when an ambulance had to
be called because I couldn't breathe at work.
Later I realised it was a panic attack and so
I thought, right, this has to change. So I went
and did a free weekend course, learnt what coaching
was, fell in love with it, thought this is incredible,
it's so powerful. I went and trained with a coaching
school in London. I loved every second of it.
Can a bad experience be the gateway to a positive
change in your life? Hi, folks. Today, I am talking
to Bianca Spruitt. She is the founder of Sprout
Coaching, a company that helps tech organizations
to improve the working experience of everyone
while at work, while also improving their personal
potential. Her experience as a female leader
in tech herself. caused Bianca to retrain as
a coach and then to launch her own successful
coaching business. So I'm really interested to
find out what inspired that change and why improving
the quality of the workplace is so important
to her. Welcome, Bianca. Hi, Leona. It's lovely
to be here with you. It's really nice to have
you along and thank you for welcoming us into
your wonderful home. We are sat under this wonderful
tree that I believe your husband put in place
that you've decorated with spring flowers. I
just feel like I'm in some lovely like zen mindfulness
environment. It is a lovely sensory experience.
Yes, for sure. I kind of want one for my own
house now. So thank you so much. Right. So just
tell me a little bit about Sprout Coat. So what
are the kind of level of people that you're working
with and what are you doing with them in your
current business? Yeah, so it's... people who
are working in senior leadership. And it's also
people who are thinking about stepping into managerial
roles and also the teams that they manage as
well. So there's all kinds of different levels
there, really. Yeah. And it's all about improving
that environment. So people feel presumably higher
levels of well -being, higher levels of confidence,
just feeling more capable and able to do the
things that they're there to do. Is that? Yeah,
and feeling safe to just be themselves, because
if they feel safe to be themselves, then they're
going to feel safe to speak up about some new
idea that they have or what they think we could
do to solve a big problem. And if they don't
feel safe, then they're much more likely to just
sit there quietly because it feels like the better
thing to do. So businesses are going to benefit
as well as the individuals. Oh, lovely. Yeah.
So a lot to do with that psychological contract
and all that goes with that, that psychological
safety and how people feel and whether they can
be themselves. Yeah, so much so. So many businesses
are missing out on some really fantastic ideas
from their people because they just don't want
to share them because they're worried about their
idea being slammed down or being made to look
stupid or just think they're not going to be
listened to anyway. So what's the point? It just
doesn't have to be that way. We spend so much
time at work, so let's make that experience as
wonderful as it can be and make people feel like
they want to be at work because they're really
appreciated when they're there. And then it makes
managers and leaders lives a lot easier as well,
because they're not having to do everything,
come up with all the ideas because their teams
are doing such wonderful work and coming up with
so much themselves. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And
this is why I was so keen to speak to you on
the podcast, because this is a mission very close
to my heart. I mean, I think I always aspired
as a young psychologist to changing the organisation
and making them better. And then I went through
my own period of feeling quite cynical about.
the possibility of that. And then I've come out
the other side and realised that actually on
an individual level, so through that individual
coaching and team coaching like you're doing,
you can make a huge difference, not just to that
immediate leader and their team, but to the other
people around them in that environment. So I
just think it's fab what you're doing. It's great.
There's so much out there at the moment celebrating
women in tech and female leaders in tech and
all of that. So what was that like as an environment?
Was it male orientated when you went in or is
it a little bit more balanced than that? It was.
Yeah, it was just men when I first started. Yeah.
And also working in the car industry, that was
mostly men as well. So it was particularly working
in the car industry and going around and setting
up the network cables and just doing all of the
very physical things around the building as well
as sitting at my desk. And yeah, it would be
normal to have posters of like topless women
on the walls and things like that. So it was
very different to how it is now. I don't think
I ever felt held back. by being a woman but I'd
say looking back I can see that yeah some of
these situations some of these environments were
not great for making me feel confident and so
they probably did contribute to me maybe not
being as confident not speaking up in certain
situations but at the time I didn't really feel
that if that makes sense yeah it makes sense
in this sense of walking past those pictures
of topless women and not giving it a second thought
which I can relate to that back in my younger
years because you it was just part and parcel
of how the world was then and now in hindsight
we feel that's quite jarring don't we but yeah
when you were saying that it made you feel where
in hindsight maybe it affected your confidence
what were the kinds of things that were impacting
on your confidence do you know when you look
back I think it was just things like seeing images
like that. If I had to go under a desk to sort
out some wiring, having some comments about my
bum, you know, those kind of things just make
you think, well, I don't I need to go and do
that job, but I don't want to do that job because
I know that I'm going to get someone making comments
about me and my body. And that didn't feel very
comfortable. So then you tried to. get out of
doing certain types of work, I guess, which may
have made me look as though I didn't want to
do certain parts of the job at times. And also
maybe not being taken as seriously when I had
something to say. And then that starts making
you think that maybe what you have to say isn't
that serious or isn't that important. So you
stop. stop speaking as much about your ideas
which then makes you stop having as many ideas
because you're kind of flattening all that down.
Yeah and it's like it sounds like it's making
you self -conscious in that way of your thinking
about physically what am I doing and how is it
looking but also What am I saying? How is it
landing? Or I've said something and it wasn't
listened to or it was overruled. And so it couldn't
have been a good idea. And you're almost, it
sounds to me like it's almost spending too much
time thinking inwardly about yourself than actually
looking externally at whatever the work is that's
going on and just getting stuck in. And I imagine
that's something that so many people, not just
women, but people who have difference. whether
it be their ethnicity or whether it be their
neurodiversity or whether it be in any other
form of physical appearance or capacity, that
idea of being different and making you a bit
more vulnerable and a bit more self -conscious
going on. Yeah, definitely. And that's one of
the biggest things that has changed from when
I was younger to how I am now. realizing that
actually those differences, the things that are
different about you can hold you back, but they
can also propel you forward. They can be your
biggest asset because if you have a different
background or you're different from the group
in some way, that means you're going to have
a different view on what's going on in the workplace.
You're going to come up with different ideas
because of all of the different experiences you've
been through in life. They all affect how you
think. And the more differently you think, the
more innovative your ideas. And yeah, we're just
missing out if we don't support people in that
way to really be themselves and embrace those
differences. Yes. And the world's changed, I
think, in relation to that. Whether it's enacted
as well as it could be in our organisations is
questionable, but certainly there's an awareness
that diversity of thought, diversity of background,
diversity of input is... valuable for creativity
solving problems making good decisions you know
I think intellectually that's more much better
understood than it was maybe you know back when
you were working in that those first companies
if I usually ask this at the end but I'm really
interested if you could go back and tell that
younger self in that environment to do something
differently would you give her any tips I think
it would be about doing everything you can to
embrace who you are and be who you are and not
feel as though you need to act as though you
know it all or act as though you fit in and that
you like the things the other people like or
that you want, you know, you have the same kind
of thoughts because actually standing out can
be good. And yet doesn't come. Easily to many
people. And this is maybe when we look at personality
differences, there's five big personality factors.
And one of them is agreeableness. So and this
is a bit like a normal distribution curve. So
I always think of it as it's like we're standing
on a bridge over a river. So you'll get some
people who are very highly agreeable. So they
will never, ever disagree with anybody ever.
And then you get the people on the other riverbank
who are so independent minded. They're really
contrary. They don't mind. a friend to win the
argument if they're right they're right yeah
but then most of us are standing on the bridge
aren't we and we're a bit like oh like sometimes
I speak my mind and sometimes I tell people and
other times it's not appropriate or I don't feel
comfortable so it's that sliding scale of how
independent versus group orientated am I prepared
to be and I suppose that's what you're talking
about being a bit more independent and a bit
more comfortable in your own skin Yeah, I think
so. And I think sometimes that is an outward
thing. But I think also sometimes it's feeling
comfortable in your own skin, but you might still
make a decision of, actually, I don't want to
enter into this argument. It's not important
enough for me. So you still feel true to yourself
because you're acknowledging yourself, how you
feel and what you believe, but that it's a conscious
decision to do something different. That's a
better place to be than just not having that
awareness and just thinking. they're probably
right you know or I better not disagree and not
really being aware of your own feelings and how
how easy do you think it is to be that way when
you're younger is that a maturity thing where
you grow into your own confidence or I think
for me it definitely was and for most people
I think it definitely is but I think that the
more we talk about this kind of thing and have
these conversations and that the younger people
listening, because I don't think I heard conversations
like this or heard anything about, you know,
being your authentic self when I was younger.
That's not the kind of conversations we were
having and there weren't podcasts to listen to
then either. I'm hoping that that will make a
difference to make it easier for people when
they're younger. But for me, it was definitely
a maturity thing. Yeah, feeling comfortable in
your own skin. But I think you're right. And
that's that whole the world is changing around
us. And that helps us to have a different perspective,
doesn't it? And you hope that that will plant
that seed a little bit earlier, that it's OK
to be different and to embrace it and celebrate
it. Yeah, I do hope so. Yeah. So you got to the
point where you were. working at a senior level
of leadership within these tech environments.
And so what changed there then? Why did you decide
to go off and do your own business? Was that
something you just always aspired to do or did
something trigger that? Well, I know what it
was. I was working for one business and the environment
was not great. It was a very toxic culture. I
was miserable and I thought that I could... overcome
it and just keep going. And I did for too many
years and I just started feeling worse and worse
and worse. And I was feeling as though my main
job was to protect my team from the environment
and from the culture. And that was my main focus
and all of my energy went there and anything
else. I didn't really have that much energy for
anything else really. I did a great job. I was
still moving my way up in my career. But I was
feeling miserable. I was feeling miserable for
me and when I saw how other people were being
treated as well. So I got to a point where I
thought I have to do something different. I hit
a real low, one of the worst points when an ambulance
had to be called because I couldn't breathe at
work. I was just, I left work and I just couldn't
get any breath and I couldn't understand why.
Later I realised it was... anxiety it was it
was a panic attack and coupled with having had
a chest infection for a while but really feeling
like I couldn't take the time off to recover
so I thought right this has to change I really
really want to make sure that Whatever I do,
it's helping other people to either not have
to feel the way I'm feeling or if they are feeling
that way, to support them through it and just
to do something about this problem that I'm experiencing
because I could see a lot of other people going
through the same thing. So I thought, OK, well,
maybe I want to be a counsellor or maybe I want
to be a coach, but I didn't really know what...
the difference was and what a coach was so I
went and did a free weekend course learned what
coaching was fell in love with it thought this
is incredible it's so powerful and I thought
I want to I want to learn some more about this
I probably still wasn't at that point fully thinking
I can do this as a full -time job in my own business
but I thought this is a this is a route to doing
something more positive and that's what I needed
so I went and trained with a coaching school
in London. which meant travelling down from Yorkshire
to London at weekends. And it was a big undertaking,
but I loved every second of it. It was absolutely
brilliant. I was learning a lot about myself
and a lot about how to support my team. So I
started using that, still working for that same
business, I started using that with my team and
realising that, wow, I felt really overloaded
with work before. But when I started coaching
my team and I stopped... just giving them all
the answers when there was a problem and instead
coach them through it and ask them questions
about, have you seen this before? And what ideas
have you come up with? And what are the risks
associated with this if it continues? And, you
know, all of those kind of coaching questions.
And they started coming up with solutions and
ideas themselves. And yeah, everything just got
loads better from the point of view of how I
was running my team. And I got so much. out of
seeing people develop it was just fascinating
and made me feel wonderful but the culture and
environment was still horrendous so i ended up
leaving there i ended up um Someone else who'd
left because they were miserable contacted me
and said, hey, where I've moved to is really
good. And they're looking for someone who does
what you do. Because I always ended up going
into businesses to set up functions and teams
that didn't exist before. So setting everything
up from scratch. And this other business needed
that. So I went in and applied for the job. I
got it. And I left that toxic environment. So
that was a very good move. I just couldn't believe
how, yeah, how much lighter I felt. Yes. And
the impact that that place had had on you. It
was quite fascinating watching you describe that
experience, Bianca, because obviously it started
out with the description of a very toxic workplace
and a culture that made you physically ill. And
then you started talking about the coaching and
your face completely lit up. And it's really
different to how you were talking about going
into IT, you know, back in the day or did a bit
of computing. So I went off to do a computer
degree and that was all very practical and pragmatic
and sensible, you know. But there wasn't really
any heart in it. Watching you describe the coaching
and how. you just fell in love with it. You use
that word, I fell in love with it. It's just
wonderful, isn't it? Because I think that's such
a massive message for younger women is where
are you putting your energy? And we can spend
so many years investing so much hard work, particularly
if you're a conscientious, ambitious person,
into a field or an environment that's okay. Yeah.
But it isn't feeding that real. love or or feeding
your soul in in some way this clearly does when
you learned about coaching how did you shield
them by using coaching from what was going on
in that bigger environment would you say it was
making sure that my team had a safe space to
express themselves being very open and curious
about their experiences so that if they weren't
happy with how they're being treated for example
then they had a safe space where they could talk
about that and express that um and i could offer
them support or find out from them what support
they needed and helping people think through
options as well um and okay well what is within
your control again and helping them to discover
this there's some things that you you're never
going to be able to control they're out of your
control but maybe you can influence certain things
and and helping them to figure out what those
things are that they could influence and making
a plan with them for that um and then also making
it clear that yeah they do have options they
don't have to stay here I mean I didn't have
those conversations say maybe you should leave
but it's more okay well let's look at what your
options are what what could you do in this situation
and how about if it doesn't change what's that
going to mean for you and helping them to explore
their own feelings. So it was a lot of listening.
being really open, being very supportive and
listening to their experiences and not assuming
that because I'm very stressed about something,
that means that they necessarily are because
we all experience things in different ways as
well. So it could be that they haven't even noticed
a certain thing I've noticed. So it was being
careful not to point things out and just to find
out, OK, well, what is your experience of this
situation? Genuinely empathising with their point
of view, whatever that may be. there might be
like you say commonalities and how you're viewing
things but there might also be differences yeah
what would you say to leaders listening or managers
listening that might say oh my gosh but if I
go and ask people you know what's going on and
what do you need they're going to expect me to
have the answer What I love about coaching is
that you don't have to have the answers. And
also, if you don't ask the questions, then I
think that's a lot more scary, because if you
don't ask the questions, you're never going to
know the answers. And actually, they might continue
down a path that means they leave. And if you
don't want them to leave, you know, you've got
a good member of staff there, then it's much
better to find out what is going on. And then,
yeah, you don't need to have the answers. You
need to have questions. And OK, so I understand
what. your experiences from what you're explaining
and what would you like to happen? How do you
see this resolving itself? And just asking them
for the solutions, which they may not have, but
if you ask them different questions and help
them to explore, then usually people do have
some ideas that they can try. Yeah, so you don't
need to have the answers. You just need to be
able to ask people and trust that they have great
ideas. Yes, and that they need to be empowered
to do things their own way. I think one of the
fascinating things about coaching is that idea
that, well, first off, I think a lot of leaders
and managers, I'm sure you've experienced this
just like I have, feel obliged to decide for
their teams, to solve the problems for their
teams. They see that as their responsibility.
It's what I'm here for. It's what I'm paid for.
It's my job to... sort things out and look after
people really it's quite parental perhaps absolutely
in outlook however what we need as recipients
of leadership is more facilitation than direction
yeah it is and and often as well because we're
managers and we're the ones with years of experience
we we kind of assume that we do have the best
answers sometimes when people start out with
coaching they they think well I'll I'll just
kind of go along with it I'll go through the
the process but they don't really believe that
Someone else might have a better idea than them
just because they're the ones with years of experience.
They've seen these things before. It's reminding
me, actually, of a number of years ago, I was
working in an NHS trust and running some leadership
development workshops. And one of them was on
coaching. And there was a very senior surgeon
who, after this day, came to speak to me to say,
you know, he thought I was. very nice and you
know that obviously knew my stuff but for him
this was never going to be a thing you know he
had to be very decisive he was the most experienced
and specialist person in that room and sometimes
you do just have to tell and we parted company
agreeing to disagree and then the next morning
I was back in the same environment in the same
room just setting up for another group that were
coming in and he popped his head around the door
and he said oh I just wanted to let you know
that I went out to the pub last night with an
old friend of mine and he said to me I need some
advice and it was of a personal nature I think
some marital issues he said and I thought hmm
I'll try a bit of this coaching he said so I
just did what what you'd suggested. I just asked
questions. And do you know what he said at the
end? He said, thank you. That's the best advice
I've ever had. He said, and I hadn't given him
any of my ideas. He said, so I'm going to give
this some thought. And it was one of those lovely
moments where somebody with a really big brain
had gone away and to his credit thought, just
going to have, in a safe environment, just going
to have a go and see if there's anything in it.
fortunately realised that actually it's a great
tactic. And I don't think you would say, or I
would say, or anyone in this world of leadership
development would say, coach all the time. It's
a tactic, isn't it? In your kit bag, it's what
you use when the situation or the individual
needs that kind of... enabling empowering or
emotionally supportive assistance yeah yeah I
love that story so much and and I bet what happened
in that situation was because when you when you
just give someone advice it You feel like you're
being really useful, really helpful, but you're
given the advice that would work for you. It's
not necessarily going to work for the other person
because you're very different. You have different
lives. You have different ways your brain works,
different experiences at work. So by saying to
someone, OK, you're experiencing this, you need
to do A, B and C and then that's going to fix
it. And then you might say, all right, OK, but
that might that solution might not work for you
because you might. find that particular advice
quite difficult or triggering or you know if
instead you're asked questions to help you to
find your own solution you're going to come up
with a solution that feels realistic and doable
and something that is going to work for you which
is obviously a lot better if it's going to actually
work than just trying to follow someone else's
advice that isn't necessarily going to give you
the end result that you're after. Oh my gosh,
it's so much more motivational power. when it's
that person's own idea yeah that too yeah let's
face it none of us really like advice i mean
we ask for it but we don't really want it we
actually what we really want is for someone to
just listen to our problem and help us work out
what we are going to do We don't really enjoy
it. I don't think when anybody says, oh, I've
had exactly the same thing and this is what you
should do next, A, B and C. I think we can feel
a bit bristly. Yeah, because really we want to
be listened to, don't we? And it's so rare to
have someone just listen and not jump in with
advice that I think that's a real gift as well.
Just having that space to talk and to think with
someone not jumping in straight away, just allowing
that silence to be there. Yeah, it's so powerful.
and it's really great with teams to get buy -in
as well. If you need a new process, you need
a new way of doing things, then rather than as
the manager thinking, right, I better come up
with this and then I'll write up this new process
and I'll give it to my team and I'll train them
on it. Instead, getting everyone together and
saying, right, this is the end result we're after.
This is where we're at now. How should we do
this? And then coaching the team through coming
up with a new process and they are going to follow
that. process if they've come up with it and
they're going to keep an eye on it and make sure
that it's continuously improved as well because
they care about it because it's their process
yes yeah and it's that so that's yeah really
powerful so that discovering coaching obviously
changed you it changed how you approach management
and leadership it also was something you started
to feel very passionate about doing more broadly
But it's the impact that you saw it have on other
people as well. So there was that whole thing
of they were taking more ownership because you
were asking more questions and giving them more
airspace to make their own suggestions and have
control over the direction of travel, which is...
you know, really motivational for people. I can
completely see why you fell in love with it and
why you wanted to spend your time doing that
completely. But tell us a little bit about that,
because you said a little bit a while ago about,
oh, I never really thought I could run my own
business. Not only did you not know how to do
it, you didn't think you maybe had the capacity
to do it. So what changed? What made you take
that step and go, well, I'm just going to do
it anyway? There were a number of things. So
one thing is finding something I was passionate
enough about that I thought, I want to be doing
this all the time. And seeing the impact it had,
thinking, wow, what if I could have this impact,
not just in the business I'm working in now,
but in lots of businesses. And that would improve
so many people's lives. And that was really inspiring
and motivating. Then there was also during COVID,
I had a little girl and that changed everything
as it does, changed how I saw myself, changed
how I saw my life. And suddenly I had this little
being and I wanted everything for her, as I still
do. And I wanted to create workplaces. that were
really positive, wonderful places to be where
people could really be themselves and reach their
full potential. And I wanted that for my daughter
for when she grew up. And I wanted her to see
what you can do if you really want to and that
you can do anything and you can at least try
anything. And even if it doesn't work out, the
fact that you're giving it a go is really powerful.
And that you don't have to be scared of giving
things a go. And this gives you real meaningful
purpose, I imagine, isn't it? Very similar to
my inspiration for the podcast was to share some
of the things I've learned with my daughters
because I'm anticipating they probably won't
listen to me. that advice thing again. But I'm
like, when they sit and listen to you talking,
they might think, oh, actually, that's really
cool. I like that. So I think that when you become
a parent, that desire to make the world better
for your children is really relatable. Yeah.
And I think you also have an increased awareness
of there is an end at some point. You have a
certain amount of life left. Yes. And what do
I want to do with this life? I think you lose
a lot of freedom when you become a parent as
well for wonderful reasons. But it is a fact
that you can't just do whatever you want whenever
you want. And so time becomes a lot more precious.
And do I really want to spend that time working
for other people in something that's fine and
I'm earning good money? Or do I want to be doing
something that really lights me up and where
I feel like I'm making a big impact? And, of
course, that's the one that I chose. So did she
make you brave, do you think, your daughter,
in some sense, because she gave you something
that was bigger? Yes, I think so. I mean, I've
always been brave in a lot of different ways.
I've travelled the world by myself for two years.
That's pretty brave. Yeah, jumped out of planes
three times. OK. I'm a diving instructor as well,
so I dive in very small enclosed spaces underwater.
So there's certain types of bravery that have
always been there. I don't know if it's bravery
or if it's just felt like necessity. I now have
to do it. And yeah, I don't know. It depends
on the definition of bravery, I guess, because
whenever I've doubted myself, I've recognised.
i've doubted i'm doubting myself and that i'm
not feeling very confident and i'm wondering
if it's all going to work out but then i continue
and take all the steps that i need to take anyway
being aware those feelings are there but just
thinking well but i am just going to continue
i just carry on doing the steps and then your
bravery or confidence will come back again at
some point. You know, there's ups and downs when
you have your own business. And having the capacity
to calm yourself down internally, self -talk
yourself through that, is that something you've
always had or is that something you learned?
So I started on lots of personal development
and figuring out how my brain worked when I was
quite young. I think it was through... I lost
my mum when I was 14 and then my brother a couple
of years after that. And so I went into a bit
of a dark place for a good while and didn't want
to get up in the mornings. And it got to a certain
point where I thought, right, well, I've got
to get myself out of this. And I just started
noticing things. that lifted me and things that
brought me down just really on a very simple
level of oh when I listen to this music I it
makes me cry more or if I listen to this other
song I feel like I want to dance actually and
it really it totally changes my mood when I move
my body more actually I feel really good afterwards
even if I felt really awful to begin with and
just starting to notice things like this I think
took me down a path of This is interesting. You
know, there are definitely things that I can
manipulate so that I feel certain ways and I
want to explore this more. And so I just played
with it and just started noticing things about
myself and and also starting to backtrack more.
So if I felt not very brave or I felt. really
sad or I felt angry I think okay so something
has led me to feel like that what what was it
at what point did that feeling change and just
kind of going back in my mind and thinking okay
what was when that thing happened interesting
so when this kind of thing happens I feel like
that so what can I do to change that and just
yeah learning a lot just by myself, by noticing
my feelings and what had led those feelings to
be there. And that hadn't come from counselling
or anything like that. You just noticed on your
own that actually something quite powerful like
music changes how I am feeling. And that insight,
it sounds like that then led you down a route
where you started to interrogate how you were
feeling and how you were thinking. And I think
this is one of the most powerful things we can
learn about our own mind is that we do have more
influence maybe over how we experience the world
than we can assume that we do yeah yeah absolutely
yeah and the and the more you start doing that
interrogation the more you discover about yourself
and how you work and the more you can change
your situation and change your perception of
things and I'm from then to now I mean Yeah,
I'm now an extremely positive person. And if
something happens that's not great, something
that I'd prefer didn't happen, I'll always find
something that I've learned from it or a positive
I've gained from it or find a way to see it from
a different angle. So it's not dismissing the
fact that that thing has happened. You know,
I can acknowledge, yeah, that's difficult. I
would rather that hadn't happened. But actually,
there's some positives I can get from this. And
that has come from that. Those beginnings of
just noticing things about myself and continuing
down that path and then starting to do some reading
and then, you know, just learning from lots of
different places more about the mind and how
we work and and how we can change that so that.
We can be in a happier place. Yeah, which all
relates over back to what you're professionally
doing now as a coach. Yeah. Doesn't it? And what
your experience is showing really is that reality
of resilience, isn't it? I think I work with
a lot of people who will say to me, I just wish
I was more resilient. And their assumption is
that this is something that you're lucky to have.
It's like a personality factor. It's something
we're born with. However, all the research would
tell us that resilience is something we develop
and we develop it. In the face of adversity.
And so, and you're actually describing there
how you individually started to notice these
things help me, these things hinder me. So I
need to do more of that and less of that. And
you're not denying the emotional turbulence of,
well, this was a bad day or this was a sad thing.
However, you are then in that very learned optimism
way going, but where are the positives I can
take from this? How do I put it in perspective?
compared to other things I've faced in life or
other things going on in the world? Or how do
I really look for the learning within it and
the extra insight I've gained? Or what pride
can I take in how I've handled that? You know,
that I kept it together and I didn't fall apart.
And all of these things, like finding, like you
say, those little nuggets of golden positivity
within all of that drama. that might be going
on I think that's a really it's like the essence
of being resilient isn't it yeah yeah I've I've
had some real ups and downs in my life yeah and
I can see how all of the ups and the downs have
led me to where I am now and I wouldn't have
had the knowledge or experience that I have now
if those hadn't happened so yeah it's I think
a lot of it was letting myself feel the feelings
but not I was i got fed up very early of being
stuck in that kind of pit of despair and thinking
yeah i need to be able to feel these feelings
but i need to have a root out as well and it
makes sense that when you were saying that you
were in that toxic culture and you had the panic
attack and the ambulance was called and for a
lot of people that might just be a spiral into
this is just awful, I can't escape this, I'm
stuck, feeling a bit helpless or feeling a bit
ashamed maybe that you can't cope and all of
those things make possibly even becoming depressed.
Whereas you'd said your thought was, I need to
get out of here and do something different with
my life. So even in that, at that point, that
resilience that you had kind of trained into
your brain earlier on was coming in as a little
bit of a defence in your darkest. hours wasn't
it yeah yeah it was but also I'd like to make
clear that it wasn't that I was miserable when
I thought right now I'm gonna leave I did stay
there for too long so just for anyone who's listening
if you are stuck in a position like that and
you feel like I've stayed here this long you
know um I can't change things now you can change
things it any points and not to feel ashamed
of having stayed somewhere too long or stayed
in a situation for too long that doesn't mean
that you can't change it now because yeah it
did take me too long as well but um yeah that
resilience did come through it for me in the
end it came through yeah no that's a really important
point isn't it and i think we can like double
down on these decisions you know i came here
i was i've got a job to do i'm going to see it
through and and we start to feel compelled to
remain where we are and so that can become a
bit of a sticky literally sticky kind of experience
to get out of isn't it so I think yeah also if
you feel as though you are protecting other people
and and they're relying on you then you think
oh well maybe I should stay for them but actually
you know everyone's responsible for their own
lives and and They'll be OK anyway. And I knew
they'd be OK whether that was they'd also make
their decision to leave, which a lot of people
did. So perhaps you role modelled something by
going. Yeah, yeah. So maybe you were helping
them. I think one of the most challenging things
I hear from managers and leaders is that moving
from being. the professional performer yourself
and it all being about you to being the facilitator
of other people's performance and when you think
about it right from childhood it's all about
the individual isn't it right through school
college university in the first decade or couple
of decades of work potentially then all of a
sudden it's not really about you anymore it's
about them and often that'll take a lot of time
for people to get their head around that concept,
but then to enact it. And I think what's great
about the offering you're bringing to the marketplace
is it's giving people in a very tech environment,
which is, you know, I imagine a lot to do with
being a real knowledgeable performer as an individual.
That's how you get in there and that's how you
stand out in there. But giving them those real
people skills that help them to help their teams.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because it is an entirely
different set of skills, managing a team and
tech skills. I mean, yeah, one does not mean
that you're good at the other, but it doesn't
have to be that hard either. And people don't
need to suffer through it. And it's so worth
just investing a bit of... time and money into
supporting managers properly because then you
don't have all of the pain of people leaving
because they're not happy or they're frustrated
and that those new managers are just um their
morale has gone right down because they were
a really top performer before and then suddenly
they're not performing so well and that's it's
not fair really, you know, to have to be put
in that position. So just a bit of support and
some tactics can change all of that and get everyone
working really well together. Yeah, it's reminding
me of when I did my master's degree, I had to
do a project in a company and it was a Japanese
owned manufacturing organisation. And when I
went in as a student to give my findings, one
of the Japanese directors was there and he sat
in, he was a very nice gentleman. And he was,
mine was all about... team leadership, this thesis
that I'd written. And he was kind of laughing
with me over a cup of coffee afterwards saying,
you do know that you... We can't lose against
you here in the West because you take your best
IT programmer and make them a people manager.
You take your best salesperson and make them
a people manager. You take your best doctor and
make them a people manager. And he's like, we
don't do that. You know, we have a different
career path for people who have ambition or potential
and they're treated differently. And that's the
only way to get ahead. in our kind of Western
organisations is to take on more people or more
budgeting responsibility. Yeah. And obviously
that doesn't suit everyone or doesn't come naturally
to everyone. And it is, like you say, another
different role. It's another profession that
you're learning now on top of your IT or your
marketing or your medical qualifications. And
so I think having people out there that will
come in and just help you, To just navigate that
and build your confidence. Because I don't know
about you, but I often see that people who might
be kind of car crash managers in some senses,
they have all these amazing skills outside of
work. They're great parents. They coach sports
teams. They're a really supportive friend that
offers help and assistance. And you're like,
oh, you have all the skills you need. You're
just not bringing them to work. And often it's
a very different way of leading a team as well,
because we think managers are the ones who are
there to direct and to say exactly what you should
do and how you do it. That's not the best way
of doing things. So, yeah, it's realising that
actually there is a different way. And it's a
better way. And it's OK to try this different
approach. So having support from the top down
in the business and having coaching really embraced
just helps so much to let the managers know that
actually, you know, we agree that this is the
approach we want to take. And this is what's
going to build the culture that we need to be
where we want to be as a business and to help
them to scale. Yeah. And to make those businesses
better for our children and more confidence building,
kind of stress reducing environment where people
can feel that they're able to be themselves,
but also realize their potential and be their
best. Yeah. So everybody benefits. Yeah. Yeah,
that's great, isn't it? It's lovely. And you
also do some online workshops as well, don't
you? Doing one about imposter syndrome at the
moment. And so they come out quite regularly.
They do. Through your website. And so if people
are interested in Bianca's work and what she
does and the messages, then you can obviously
check her out and we'll put a link into our show
notes. So there's a couple of questions I wanted
to just finish on. The first is if there's somebody
out there thinking. or aspiring to change their
career and do something different, maybe to start
their own business or maybe to just retrain in
a different profession, what would be your advice
to them? I know we said don't give advice, but
what would be your kind of tips if they are in
that, like, should I, shouldn't I? It depends
if they have an inkling of what they want to
go for next or not. If they do, then it's a matter
of building confidence and making a plan. So
before I quit my job, I had a spreadsheet. I
worked out my budget. I knew how long, how much
money I needed to save to keep me going for an
amount of time that I thought would get me up
and running. And building your confidence as
well, because you're going to need it by doing
things like looking back on your life and looking
at the things that you've achieved. And recognising
those because we're only too good at noticing
the things we've done wrong, but we don't reflect
enough on the things that we've done really well.
So spending time thinking about that and thinking
about what are the skills and attributes that
you had that meant that you could do that. And
asking friends and colleagues as well for their
opinions of what they think you would be good
at. It can be really enlightening sometimes because
you see how other people see you and what other
people appreciate about what you do. And that
can really open your eyes to possibilities as
well. That's great advice. So real self -reflection
and self... awareness building yeah and having
a plan having a plan and then having a plan and
following your passion as well I think that's
what's come over really strongly from you you
realized I love this and that's fuel isn't it
yeah that's fuel to get you through those days
where you feel this is really hard I can't do
it I'm not sure I'm good enough but I love it
and I want it and that's the thing that's going
to get you up the next day fighting it is and
if you don't know what you love then try lots
of different things yeah I've I've done so many
different things it might look straightforward
my my path to to people who don't know the whole
story but you know I've worked in restaurants
I've worked on a cattle station I've worked on
dive boats I've I've worked in tech I've I've
done so many different things and I've learned
something really valuable from each so if you've
spent many years in one career don't feel as
though you've that's wasted time if you want
to go on a move to do something else, because
there will be so many things that you've learned
during that time that will be really useful in
ways that you can't even imagine right now. As
you can probably tell, I'm a massive fan of the
work that you do. I'm a big believer in the power
of coaching from a personal point of view and
in my professional life. So it's great to hear
you out there just doing the same kind of thing
and improving those workplaces. Thank you so
much for your time. Thank you, Leona. It's been
great. Next week, we have something a little
different. Join myself and my wonderful producer,
Nick, as we debrief what we've learned from all
the wonderful guests we've spoken to so far.
And we highlight the key ways of thinking and
behaving that have enabled them to survive and
thrive. We'll also let you know what to expect
from series two.