Hi, I'm psychologist and author Leona Deakin,
and this is Leadership Journeys, where I talk
to women from diverse worlds who've achieved
extraordinary things to find out what enabled
them to survive and to thrive. Last week, we
heard from ex -England cricketer Holly Colvin,
who talked about her amazing career as part of
the World Cup winning England team, but that
it just didn't feed her soul and how she learned
that really by following her gut, well, that
was the way to true fulfilment. This week on
Leadership Journeys. Everybody at some point
may be experiencing something different or may
be experiencing a degree of being a minority
or being othered. And that's why you lead with
kindness. I have had feedback that I communicate
well. And the reason why I say that comfortably
now, not necessarily confidently, but comfortably,
is because actually I'm doing a disservice to
all those people that have given me that feedback.
Words are, for me, one of my superpowers. Can
kindness be the key to being a great boss? On
this episode, I'm talking to Rebecca Oliver Mooney
or ROM, head of commercial for Co -op and founder
of Raising the Glass, an initiative that creates
meaningful connections that drive inclusivity
for women and allies in the drinks industry.
It's a really cool initiative. It's got a podcast,
networking events and a mentoring program. ROM
herself has over 20 years experience in FMCG,
fast moving consumer goods with brands such as
Mars, Nestle, Kellogg's and Muller. Just making
me hungry just reading those. She is a passionate
advocate for inspiring and engaging people through
great communication and the use of stories. So
we have lots in common. And I was on Rom's podcast,
Raising the Glass Before Christmas, and we had
a blast. So I'm really looking forward to this
conversation. I want to hear what she's learned
about achieving commercial success, but also
why supporting other women is so very important
to her. Hiya, Rom! Thanks for having me. It's
lovely. It's lovely to be here in your home in
the middle of nowhere. Middle of nowhere. Yeah.
Oh, I'm very jealous of this. Yes. Well, it's
great when you're planning to work from home
or in the holidays. But yeah, when the weather
hits you and you can't get out of the drive,
sometimes it's not quite as convenient. No. Right.
So let's delve in. So your job for the co -op.
So the co -op is quite a cool organisation and
has a predominantly female leadership. profile
at the moment, doesn't it? Which is really, really
interesting considering the nature of many sort
of large corporate organisations. So just tell
me a little bit about your role and the co -op
and what that's like to work in. Just give us
a little bit of a flavour of your day to day.
So I work within the commercial team at the co
-op and I look after certain categories. So I
have the pleasure of looking after frozen. I
look after what we term community buying. So
that's where we bring together areas where we
focus on buying with a community in mind. So
that could be our world foods area. It could
be our local area supporting local communities.
And it's our area where we look at working with
our small suppliers. So we have an incubator
and an accelerator scheme called the apiary.
And I also look after drinks as well, which is
a fantastically exciting category to be part
of. I have worked for the co -op for about four
and a half years now. It is, as you say, quite
unique sometimes because we are an ethical retailer
and that runs through all of our DNA. So for
anybody that doesn't know, the co -operative
movement was the pioneer movement. It was founded
over 180 years ago and the ethos of what set
that movement up today still runs through our
DNA. At the moment, there's a lot of people talking
about whether DE &I should be rebranded to FAIR
or even more worryingly, is it time to pedal
back? And I'm super proud to work for an organization
where we're not pedaling back. But more than
that, we've got leadership that actually promotes
the fact that we're not pedaling back. And we'll
talk about that and make everybody realize how
important. And look. Statistically, you can see
that DE &I really makes a difference to organizations
and they thrive. But at the moment where there's
a lot of noise about it, to have an organization
that stands up and says, we're going again, is
brilliant. And I have a very unique experience
because I work in an organization where my leader
is a woman, my CFO is a woman, my CEO is a woman.
and you kind of stop seeing the challenge sometimes
when you're surrounded by not just gender, but
also leadership that centers around protected
characteristics being visible, then you sort
of think everybody has that experience. And sometimes
you have to fact check yourself and realize that
not everybody has the privilege of working in
an organization that continuously strives to
deliver. and make sure that we have an inclusive
culture so that everyone can be their authentic
selves at work. Yeah, there's so many interesting
things in there. So the acronyms you use in there,
the DE &I, that's all the diversity. Diversity,
equity and inclusion. And what was the second
acronym you used with the F? So people are talking
about rebranding it to FAIR and centering around,
I suppose, still the degree of inclusivity, but
the fairness behind it and losing actually some,
I suppose, of that. diversity. For me, the biggest
bit that it boils down to is inclusion and inclusivity
and belonging. Everybody wants to feel that they
belong. And I think that when you are in the
corporate world or any job, you really need to
understand that the lens that you look through
might not be a lens that everybody experiences.
So how can you be more empathic or how can you
be more aware and therefore perhaps understand
that you may need to do things differently to
ensure that everybody just belongs. Yes. And
that belonging is so powerful, isn't it? On a
motivational level, feeling like we have value
and that people care about what we do, the impact
we have, who we are. You know, these are quite
fundamental things, aren't they? Of feeling connected
to the world. But you're saying that the co -op
as a brand, it started out being one where it
was... very integrity -led, sort of values -led.
So what are the values that sit within that brand
then that you see living and breathing? Because
organisations talk about values all the time,
but they're just stuck on a piece of paper on
the wall. It sounds like you experience them.
Is that right? Yeah, I have worked in a couple
of really value -led organisations in my time
where you do feel them. I have worked for organisations
where it is, here's some values and can you recite
them and do you know what they mean? Where I
see it working really well, and the co -op is
an example of that, is people will talk about
how it makes them feel. So it's not necessarily
this is a behavior that I can frame. We do have
that. But it's more about the culture. And does
everybody experience that culture in the same
way? Now, we're all individuals, so we'll take
it in in different ways and we'll roll it around
in our minds a bit and it will mean something
different. If you can feel that you're in a culture
that everybody is having the same experience
of and that links back to the company's values,
you could say Co -op was very lucky because we
were founded on the values of this pioneering
movement and the fact that even today we still
believe that we have a responsibility as an ethical.
But you're a senior leader in this organisation.
So what does that mean for you in terms of leading
your people? What does that require of you as
a leader that you do to make people feel that
sense of the culture coming to life and belonging
and being fair and ethical? What does that mean?
Some of it is, you know, you can lean into the
values and the behaviours that we talk about.
Cooperation is a big thing for us. We're the
co -op and cooperation with the... Supply base
is important, but also cooperating with your
colleagues and your team. And when you think
about that element of belonging, and we've spoken
about it before, it's rooted in you. You want
to belong because it's linked to safety. These
are the people in my tribe that I am safe with
and I belong with. And I think sometimes when
you work in large organizations and you have
lots of different teams. You can get a brilliant
sense of belonging within your team that you
work with day in and day out. And then suddenly
you see another team, another tribe, and sometimes
their objective might be slightly different.
And it's trying to boil it back down to what
is the common goal that we're all trying to deliver
against? What is it within those key performance
indicators, those KPIs where we can align? And
I think being able to create environments where
you can have conversations, you can have the
right conversation the right way. And I think
sometimes, certainly earlier on in my career
when I was learning and growing and I talk about
accidental management, often you're doing really
well in a role and you take a step up to the
next level and you become almost overnight a
people leader. And I think actually sometimes
you grow into that confidence of how do we have
the conversations in the right way? And they
can be challenging conversations are OK. done
in the right way. And I think, again, anchoring
back to the behaviors of things like cooperation,
fairness, equity can help you benchmark your
behaviors. Autonomy is a big one for me, empowering
the team. As I said, I work with the drinks category
now. And I came into that 18 months ago with
very limited knowledge and a team who are absolutely
brilliant. And I mean really, really brilliant,
particularly in some of the categories like wine,
where it's very nuanced and there's a lot of
qualifications. And I'm still there going, is
this red or white? Whilst I'd grown up with people
who drank wine, I hadn't experienced necessarily
a lifestyle of getting over familiar with all
these amazing products. And you go through a
moment of huge imposter syndrome. Yeah. And then
I got to a place of actually, I'm not here to
make a decision on which wine we're going to
blend. If any of my team are listening, they'll
be delightfully relieved that I realised that
very quickly. I'm here to add value in different
ways. But again, I'm a little bit more comfortable
in my skin now to say I might not know everything
about that, but the team are brilliant and let
me... get them to answer the question or share
their thoughts with you, as opposed to having
all the answers to all the questions, which I
think. Probably earlier on in my career, my imposter
syndrome showed up in a way that made me feel
like I had to know everything about everything.
Yes. I think it's really common, isn't it? That
particularly when people are new into management
and leadership, that you feel like you're being
paid to know, you're being paid to solve the
problems and make the decisions. That's your
role. And so we can fall into the trap of continuing
to be the doer. Yes. Whereas actually what you're
saying there is. The thing that, well, there's
a few things going on there, isn't there? One,
you're reframing your role. So not having to
have all the answers, not having to know all
the intricacies of the wine, but actually being
the facilitator of other people's performance
and other people's expertise. And then the ways
that you're doing that, one, obviously creating
that sense of belonging. but also empowering
and giving autonomy to people so that they can
presumably choose their own way of doing things
within an agreed kind of parameter of what we're
trying to, where we're trying to get to. What's
the end in mind? And a lot of the time, somebody
else's way will be different and often much better
than the way I would have done it. And again.
For me, that links back to the diversity point.
And I suppose thought diversity, if we're all
going the same way from a kind of an instruction
down of this is the way we're going to do it,
we're going to lose something somewhere along
the way. We're going to miss an opportunity.
We might take a bit longer to do something or
do it in a way that maybe costs more to the business.
So I think that. empowerment is really, really
important for individuals. I do think people
perform better when they feel trusted and valued
and empowered, as long as they've got a framework
to feel supported. But I think it's often better
for businesses. And I think that bit between
the doing element, spoiler alert, the doing never
goes, but you're doing changes. And I talk a
lot to my team of leaders around, you know, leading
versus doing. creating a framework because everybody
needs to grow and develop into that bit. And
the more you dip into the doing, you're taking
learning opportunities away. So the analogy I
use is tying shoelaces. So for anybody who has
children, this may well resonate. But when you
have a young child and a toddler and they're
learning to tie their shoelaces, getting out
of the house is a nightmare. You don't get anywhere
on time because If that child is adamant they're
trying to learn to tie their shoelaces, there's
no negotiating with them. So you can put them
in Velcro shoes for a little bit longer and you
can tie them themselves and get them out of the
door. But every time you do that, you take away
the opportunity for them to learn to tie their
own shoes and you just prolong the learning experience.
So I'm a huge fan of giving people space and
the safety network to learn to tie their own
shoes and learn and grow and evolve in their
roles. I love that. When and how did you learn
this, do you think, when you look back in your
career? So you said you came into management.
There was a bit of imposter syndrome. You were
thinking it was one thing. And then at some point
the penny dropped or what went on there? Were
there some experiences? It's all experience based.
Some of the major learnings in my, I was going
to say in my career, but in my life have come
at the crux of. almost sometimes things being
taken out of your control so you experience in
a different way. I think for me there are times
where you work in a certain way, you're doing
the doing, you're taking more stuff, you're doing
the doing, you're doing the doing, you're churning
things out and it could be that you realise that
maybe somebody who's been a high performer suddenly
isn't performing as well. And that could be your
impact on them, you know, because you've kind
of come in and you've overmanaged and you've
micromanaged. I talk a lot about don't let great
get in the way of good. And sometimes good is
good enough. And those moments of learning normally
come when you're kind of in a real moment of
crunch and something might have to fall off.
And that presentation that you spent ages titivating
around the edge, do you know what? It's good
enough. And then you realize that actually it
was good enough. And it's not saying that you're
lowering your standards. It's just actually you're
moving your capacity of work elsewhere. Yes.
Trust is a huge thing for me. I learned throughout
my career. For some people, trust just exists.
Psychological safety just exists until it doesn't.
For others, you have to see that it's there.
It almost has to be built up for you. I've struggled
a lot with psychological safety. Okay. Tell us
a bit about that then. So what are your insights
into that? What's been your challenge? I have
been in rooms where I have felt there hasn't
been psychological safety. Okay. And again, as
I've grown in my career and I've become a bit
more confident and I've been confident enough
to talk about it. And I've said, I'm not too
sure psychological safety exists here. And the
voice around the room will be, it does. Of course
it's safe. I'm thinking. It doesn't. How can
these people just feel that it exists? And what
did you feel was missing? What was your concern
when you look back? Like you must have been feeling
a bit of anxiety there about speaking up, speaking
out, those kinds of things, were you? Absolutely.
I think, and again, I think I've grown in my
career to be more comfortable about speaking
up and speaking out. So that's part of it. But
I think the moment of crystallization for me
was, These two schools of thought of psychological
safety exists until it doesn't, or you build
it and exists, that there's a third school of
thought, which is for some people, psychological
safety at work may never exist, particularly
when you consider protected characteristics.
And I was having a conversation recently on the
Raising the Glass podcast about for some people
of color, psychological safety will never exist
in the work environment. And it made me realize
that actually maybe my approach to psychological
safety is that it does need to be proven for
me to believe it exists because of the protective
characteristics that I walk into a room with.
And I think one of my biggest reflections is
meeting people where they are and just being
aware. And it's not enough to say psychological
safety exists or it's not enough to say we will
build it. You have to feel it. Yes. And everybody's
different and everybody takes things in differently.
So the only person who can truly tell you whether
they've got psychological safety is an individual.
Now, you can be a bit brave in that space. You
can go, I think it exists. I'm going to speak
up. I'm going to speak out. But I think if you
are an individual who sat in a room going, of
course, psychological safety exists. Please don't
say that. That's not the comment we need you
to say. We need you to speak up and speak out
and show us. that it exists in the way you behave
and the way you help therefore create that space
for others. Yeah. So it's a bit of that. There
is no reality. There's only perceptions of reality.
And so if I'm saying, hey, this team is psychologically
safe, that's because I feel psychologically safe.
So I suppose the point you're making is that
doesn't mean everybody else does as well. Yes.
But me coming into that team may go, I don't
know anybody in this team or my viewpoint is
different. And that's fine because we're trying
to drive thought diversity. But But nobody else
has socialized this idea yet. And why not? And
maybe I shouldn't. And then we're way, way back
slammed into imposter syndrome, or as we like
to try to rebrand it, improver syndrome. Improver
syndrome. I remember you talking to me about
that on the last time we spoke in your podcast.
And I really like that kind of flipping of it.
I think anything where we have the power to reframe
something is incredibly powerful and understanding
that. mindset change can affect so much. It can
affect how you feel about yourself. It can affect
your actions, all of those things, can't it?
But this whole thing about that psychological
safety is just making me think, as well as those
protected characteristics, like you were saying,
there are some categories of... people who might
struggle to feel psychologically safe just in
general and it was making me think ah yeah no
but from a psychological point of view there
will be some people who for their own reasons
their self -esteem is damaged and very low their
ability to trust has been kind of weathered away
and so they are more vulnerable as a character
and so even though the circumstances around them
might be really supportive and caring doesn't
necessarily it's not a cause and effect they've
got a longer journey and i suppose that's the
point you're making isn't it to not assume that
we're all the same yeah you never ever ever know
what's going on behind the scenes. Yeah. You
just don't. And we talked earlier about some
of the fantastic leadership I get to experience
at Co -op. But Shireen, our CEO, recently came
out and talked about how we're not dialing back
on DE &I. And she referenced the fact that everybody
will experience being a minority at some point,
which is quite a statement because we don't often
feel that. But it could be gender, it could be
ethnicity, it could be lower socioeconomic background,
it could be age. And then you have that aha moment.
All of us at some point, if we're lucky, will
experience being a minority of old age. Yes.
So we all potentially in our lifetime will experience
that. So therefore you can say... You don't know
what's going on in anybody's life at all, but
everybody at some point may be experiencing something
different or may be experiencing a degree of
being a minority or being othered. And that's
why you lead with kindness. Yes, I was going
to come on to that because I mean, but it's very
powerful to have your most senior leader actually
explicitly talking about diversity and respecting
diversity and the fact we all. are diverse. Yes.
That's, I imagine, sets a tone within the organization.
But that whole thing about leading with kindness.
So if we get to that behavioral level, because
I know you're a really passionate communicator
and you like stories and you feel that's really
important within your leadership impact to communicate
and communicate well. And then there's the kindness
thing as well. So tell us a little bit about
the more tactical side of how you lead and the
things you've found over the years. help you
to get the best out of the people that you're
responsible for? I think the reason why I love
stories so much is because when you use the word
story, everybody gets a little smile on their
face and they go back to a place of remembering
somebody telling them a story. Stories have the
power to connect us. Stories have been part of
our communication toolkit from the moment we
could communicate. We sat around fires and told
stories. And again, those stories were stories
of fantastic achievements, of hunting beasts
and of succeeding, or stories of don't go near
the monsters, the people who are different to
us. Our communication is in our DNA. And therefore,
that coupled with the emotive connections that
you can get, I am a really firm believer of storytelling.
as a form of communication because we buy into
that because if you're storytelling rather than
presenting you're connecting emotions and feelings
and language is more than just the words that
are coming out of your mouth it's our body language
it's our tonality it's how you leave people feeling
and to be clear I'm not saying that I start every
meeting with people with a once upon a time There
was a girl called Ron. You can storytell in short,
short moments and you'll be able to think of
the people who you go, they're really powerful
communicators. They have everybody hanging on
there. What's the next sentence that's going
to come out of the mouth? What's the punchline
that we all know you're getting to, but we're
following the cadence of the story? Throughout
my career, and it's taken me a long time to say
this, so if you'd asked me this probably even
five years ago, I would have gone, oh, I don't
know. I have had feedback that I communicate
well. And the reason why I say that comfortably
now, not necessarily confidently, but comfortably,
is because actually I'm doing a disservice to
all those people that have given me that feedback
and said, can you help me or how do you do it?
Because if I go, well, I'm not really very good,
then that discredits everybody else's feelings.
So I hear the feedback and I reflect on it. And
I am lucky that it's one of, One of my skills.
I often say words are my numbers. Spoiler alert,
numbers are also my numbers. But words are my
numbers. Words are, for me, one of my superpowers.
Yes. So why do you think it makes you feel uncomfortable
to say, I'm a good communicator? Because probably
there's some point in my childhood where I stood
up to present at school and I fumbled over a
word and I can remember somebody picking on it.
And therefore, I can't say that 100 % of the
time I've been a brilliant communicator. That's
my, you know, the little six, seven year old
Roman will sometimes still rear her head. So
that's that perfectionistic kind of approach,
isn't it? If I haven't done it perfectly right
every single time, then I can't claim that. Yes.
Particular talent, as it were. And I think, certainly
for me as an individual, I do not think I'm alone
in this statement. If I put my head above the
parapet, back to that psychological safety, what
if somebody says, well, I don't like your communication
style? Or no, you're not. So we almost sort of
quench our own superpower down to protect it
so that nobody can... kind of throw a few things
in over the side and go actually that that's
not you at your best because then that really
you know when when somebody challenges a super
belief of your superpower that's really hard
to come back from because that can shift all
of the foundations that you've built so there's
a risk to showing off your superpowers in that
somebody might lob a tomato at you yeah yeah
absolutely and I think something like communication
is a really interesting one as well because I
have had a career where I've been in the privileged
position to do lots of presentations to sometimes
big groups of people and you you get the adrenaline
and you get the nerves and you present and you
come off and everyone goes oh that's great you
were really good you must really love it no and
and then because You can perform in this space
and it's not necessarily communication. For other
people, it will be different things. Sometimes
when you are in that space where you're just
brilliantly great at something, you don't often
get the feedback for it because people feel it
comes easy to you. I find public speaking terrifying.
There's a reason why glossophobia exists, the
fear of public speaking. And actually more people
are scared of that than they are of spiders and
dying. So that goes to show how scary public
speaking is. We're baring our soul, right? We're
really opening ourselves up. So no wonder it's
a terrifying experience. So I think that even
when people are great at things, tell them that
you think they're great at something. Yes. Because
sometimes that's where we don't hear it enough.
Absolutely. My younger sister is a trainer for
hearing dogs for the deaf. And I remember her
saying to me once, it's really easy to train
a dog or any intelligent animal, really. You
just reward the behavior you want more of and
ignore the behavior you want less of. And I thought,
huh, that is the opposite of what happens in
organizations. As an employee in an organisation,
you're constantly being told, well, these are
your areas for development. These are the things
we want you to aspire to doing tomorrow. These
are the things that you're not doing in the way
we want you to do them. But that whole superpower
where you handle yourself well in a meeting or
you stand up and present really well, that's
stuff that we take for granted because it looks
like, well, you can already do it, so I don't
need to tell you. However, what I'm hearing from
you is that... Even when you can do something
and communicate well, you're still experiencing
the anxiety and the fear of getting up in front
of those people and telling that story, even
though you've prepared it, even though you know
that they're going to enjoy it, even though you
know you'll probably execute it well, you still
feel that fear. And I think if we could be more,
I suppose, open with our... reinforcement of
others so when we see someone do something really
well to say hey that's what you did really well
in that moment and not just what did you say
about um that was great you were brilliant you
must really enjoy it which is nice to hear but
is kind of an empty piece of feedback isn't it
oh it must have been really easy for you yeah
whereas actually what you want to know is oh
my gosh the way you made that point there the
way you landed that evidence the preparation
that must have gone in to making that point linked
to that point. That was really smart. That was
really clever. I'm going to remember that. So
sometimes I think it's the richness of feedback,
isn't it? That we really need. And even if we
look really confident and competent, doesn't
mean we feel it. We all, it's back to that sense
of belonging. Feedback can really help you feel
like you belong. And I think often you're right.
You get told, here are all your development areas.
Now. Let's just take a moment to acknowledge
that 15 years ago, we were calling them weaknesses.
So we've come a long way on that journey. Now
they're our development areas. Go and work on
them. And everybody has development areas. That's
okay. I still haven't met somebody who's absolutely
brilliant at every single thing because we're
human. But I also absolutely subscribe to the
school of thought of... It is definitely easier
for you as an individual if you can do more of
the stuff that you're great at. And that will
probably have a bigger impact. So in my career,
as I've kind of grown up through it, I have got
comfortable with going, that is going to take
a lot of energy for me to move into that space.
There's somebody over there who is just brilliant
at it. I talk about superpowers. There's a couple
of ways to identify them and I use both of them.
One is when somebody says to you, how did you
do that? And you go, what do you mean? That's
just really easy. The bit you're missing off
the end of that sentence is it's really easy
for you. So if people are telling you you're
doing something brilliant and you think it's
really easy to do, that's your superpower. That's
the bit that you can just do and own and help
other people get better at by leading by example.
The other bit I do is ask people what's missing
when I'm not in the room. So what I'm not asking
for is a, tell me the three things you think
I'm good at and I should continue doing. Tell
me the three things you think I should stop doing
or start doing. What I'm saying is, what's missing
when I'm not in the room? Because what I get
through that question is, here's something that
you are good at. Tick, that's nice for me. But
also, and I really value it. Because if it's
not in the room, it's been missed. And therefore
you start to identify again what your superpowers
are, but where they really show up and can influence.
So have you done that for yourself? Like asking
people that question? Yes. Yes. And that has
helped you to really understand the impact that
your presence has. It's helped me understand
the impact that my presence has. It's helped
me understand the impact that... when I'm not
operating within my guardrails, I can have that
bit. You know, sometimes you spend some time
with somebody and it jars slightly. You can't
quite put your finger on it. They're probably
flexing way, way above their flex points. But
it's also helped me to find my purpose. And that,
I've probably worked on my purpose throughout
my career. You go to a course, you go away, and
it's always very fluffy. And rather embarrassingly
earlier, I said words are my words. And it took
me a long time to get to, the words of my purpose,
who I am. And what is that then? So my purpose
is that I create safe spaces so people can be
bravely curious and curiously brave because that's
where their magic happens. Lovely. I felt like
that needed just a moment. So what's striking
me about this, Rom, is that as well as asking
for that... kind of feedback for yourself and
learning about yourself as you've gone and being
brave and courageous yourself, which all gives
us that ability to understand what other people
might be going through. I'm imagining this must
take a lot of empathy and attention as a leader.
If you are working out who might not feel psychologically
safe or who might need that little bit of extra
feedback to identify their superpower or who
might need a little bit of a push out of their
comfort zone to be brave and improve. So you're
having to pay attention, presumably a lot, to
your people. I think everybody who works with
somebody should. And I think not just as a leader.
We spend in the corporate world a lot of time
looking up and down. You know, am I doing enough
to, on my leadership journey, to get to where
I aspire to be? And, you know, who am I looking
up that might be where I see myself in the future?
But actually, some of the biggest things that
we should be doing is looking to our left and
our right. Are our peers okay? Can we check in
on them? Are our teams okay? You know, my job
is to make sure my team are okay. And you're
right. pay attention and I strive to be an accessible
and open person that people can build relationships
with me. Point to note, all of my relationships
with my team will differ from person to person.
And again, that was probably a learning in my
career that, you know, one size doesn't fit all
because we are all human beings. Yes, it's fairness.
Not equality, isn't it? And I think once you
get your head around the fact that I'm not going
to treat everybody the same, which would be equality.
So I am a leader who will spend every Monday
morning talking to you about what you've got
coming up and helping you think about how you're
going to do it. And you're all going to get that
as a team of 10. But then understanding that
actually, no, you're very experienced or you're
very independent minded or you're very comfortable
in this space. And you don't want your manager
hanging around, chatting to you every Monday
morning about what you just go away and I'll
call you if I need you. Whereas someone else
might be like, oh, my goodness. Yeah, this is
really helping. Please sit with me. Please help
me think it through. That's fair. Yes, I think
it's and it's a deeper level. Nice is the personality.
You know, some people I just want to talk about
everything and share something like, yeah, but.
But you're here to work today. So let's just
talk about this. And, you know, showing up and
we talk a lot about authenticity and over flexing,
but flexing is a really powerful tool. Authenticity
doesn't mean you show up and go, this is me.
This is how I'm going to be. We do a lot of work
on ourselves. And again, I've had the privilege
in my career to do a lot of personality assessments
and a lot of personality. And I love. Anything
that can help me understand myself a bit better.
But what I always say is they all come with a
big red alert button. Because what you can't
do is say for anybody that's done Coloured Insights,
I'm red blue. So treat me like I'm red blue and
nothing. We have to go. But we work in a team
that's got lots of yellow people. So how do we
bring those in? Or lots of green. If you've done
Myers -Briggs, but particularly in the corporate
world. introversion and extroversion we work
in industries where you see extroversion and
they're built around extroversion what does that
mean means we've got some really powerful highly
functioning introverts so again how do we flex
your style but the bit around that the the fairness
or the or the equity but i think it's it's more
how you're working with people for me is situational
leadership. So your example of on Monday morning,
I'm going to brief everybody in exactly the same
way and talk through it in this way. It doesn't
work for everybody, but it also doesn't work
for the same person all of the time. Yes. So
when you're doing stuff that you're absolutely
brilliant at, that you do really well, you don't
want somebody going, just talk me through exactly
what you're doing back to that micromanagement
bit. But at the same time, when someone goes,
it's normally positioned as I've got a great
opportunity for you you know that moment of oh
no I've never done this before this is a big
big hill that I'm going to have to climb that's
when you do want the support of people around
you and your manager you know just just help
me get comfortable with it and I think when people
understand that situational leadership never
goes away it's not the individual it's what's
happening to them at that time that dictates
how you need to show up as a leader in that position.
Yes, and it's understanding that people's behaviour
is as much about where they are as who they are
or when they are as who they are. Absolutely.
And so at some points they'll feel very confident
and at other points they might feel very vulnerable,
same personality. And I think that's probably
one of the things that I sort of wish I'd stumbled
across situational leadership earlier on in my
career, but that understanding of sometimes an
individual in my team needs me on the pitch with
them. Yeah, sometimes they're happy to have me
at the sidelines and sometimes I can sit up in
the bleachers and just cheer away. That bit of,
again, going back to that accidental management
and normally our initial management style is
built on, I've had a manager that's done all
this amazing stuff and I want to do the same.
And a combination of, and these bits really didn't
work. I absolutely don't want to do that. So
that is how we start learning to lead. But the
more we can do around just understanding things
like situational leadership, the things that
make us all individual and how we respond to
that. And personality differences. As you say,
I think from a leader's point of view, one of
the most powerful things about a personality
profile is not what it tells you about yourself,
because these are self -reported tools. So it's
basically holding up a mirror. So you might get
a bit of refinement around the edge, but you
should recognize yourself. in that profile. I
think what's really powerful about it is realizing
how different someone else can be that, you know,
for every extrovert out and out, you know, chatty,
gets their energy from other people, loves talking
things through, externalizes everything, is quite
excitable. There's a quiet, reflective individual
who might look shy, but actually just doesn't
want you there because they're deep within their
own thoughts and very content. Thank you very
much. But possibly having. the best ideas in
the room, but nobody's inviting them to speak.
I think this is where understanding that, going
back to that diversity and understanding people,
paying attention to people. But I think what
I'm hearing from you is on your journey, you've
learned about yourself and understood not only
your impact, but your character and your preferences
and your superpowers. And that has helped you
to then empathize understand appreciate the people
who are different and what might make them tick
and that that's the thing that you're honing
over your career isn't it yeah the the bit i
never look at i mean that you know you do a psychological
assessment you go oh no i can't be that one i
want to be that shiny one over there you know
and again you know i'm pretty sure it's human
nature to read something about yourself and go
that's that's the boring profile isn't it might
just be the ones i get but I read them now with
a lens of how can I flex? So if I am introverted,
I can't sit in meetings all the time and say,
I'm not going to talk until somebody asks me
to talk. So what are my coping techniques that
allow me to flex? And actually, I talk introversion,
extroversion quite a lot, because for two reasons.
When you say to somebody, extrovert and introvert,
you described it wonderfully well. You talked
about where you get your energy from. But most
people go to a traditional larger than life extrovert,
shy introvert. That isn't what it is in this
example. It is exactly where you get your energy
from. So as a off the scale introvert, believe
it or not, because people normally go, no, you're
not like I am. And also this bit of paper says
I am. I know that I can function in the corporate
world, which is quite extroverted in occasions,
some of which I've put myself in where I've set
up things and gone. This is actually something
where somebody who gets a lot of energy from
being an extrovert would probably thrive in.
I can still function, but I know what my coping
techniques need to be. So if I am doing big presentation,
a big networking event, I know that I'm going
to be exhausted after it. And I just want to
sit with myself and my thoughts for a little
bit to recharge. So if that's what works for
me, my EQ has helped me understand that other
people will have coping techniques for whatever.
their psychological assessments tell about them
or however they are and however they show up
what drains their energy so we all have those
activities that lift our energy and those things
that drain it don't we? And so understanding
those kinds of things. Yeah. But it's like, I
think we talked about last time, Susan Cain's
book, Quiet, which is in general, I mean, I'm
really paraphrasing hugely here, but to me, what
it says is extroverts run the world and introverts
should. It's just like the introverts are paying
so much more attention and thinking so much more
deeply. But I think what's really strong about
what you're saying there is if you are a leader
and you have people in your team who are more
introverted, more refined, more quiet, more considered,
then you have a responsibility to bring them
in and draw them out or give them the time to
just decompress after they've had to do something
that's extrovert in behavior. However, you're
also talking about you individually as an introvert
have a responsibility. to still step into that
extroverted activity and be present, particularly
as a leader. Yeah. Push yourself out of your
comfort zone in order to have the impact you
want, get the things done, serve your purpose.
But I think there's, I've learned how to push
myself, I suppose out of my comfort zone, yes,
but to do it in a way that's still authentic
to me. So I think with leadership, we sometimes
don't understand the power of the responsibility
it brings. So let's be, really, really open about
this. Much like school teachers, I think, you
can always remember a brilliant boss. You can
always remember somebody who wasn't brilliant.
And I think as leaders, we need to remember the
shadow we cast, the impact you can have on an
individual wider than work. A time when you sit
at home in the evening worrying about something
and what somebody might say. can be as a result
of somebody that isn't leading you in the right
way versus the comfort of this bit of work's
just come in and I'm not too sure how to do it.
But do you know what? I've got somebody who will
really support me. So you have to understand
being a leader is a real privilege. People are
putting trust in you and people are putting their
feelings in you. And I think we shouldn't lose
sight of that. I think there is also, probably
an element of vulnerability. And I think just
showing up in that example of introversion versus
extroversion, I probably did spend my career
showing up as an extrovert. This is how everybody
else is acting. So back to equity, belonging,
I need to act the same, particularly as a woman
in the corporate world, where I probably flexed
even more in away from some of my warm leadership
skills into other leadership skills that other
people were displaying and almost being rewarded
for with promotions and acceleration and things
like that. So I've got to a place in my career
where I am now comfortable. When people used
to go... you're not an introvert, you're an extrovert.
I was like, yes, I fooled you. I almost wore
it as a badge of pride that you didn't know.
And I've done a lot to try to be very open about,
you know what, I am an introvert and I have coping
techniques. What are the coping techniques that
I can share? You said, how do you bring people
in? How do you bring people in in a way that's
right for them, which isn't always about in the
moment? How do we create space for the reflectors?
How do we warm up a room? I am always talking
to the team about there are people who will naturally
warm up a room and it's just, again, probably
their superpower and they don't realise that
they're doing it versus some people who go, well,
there's going to be three or four people and
I'm going to have to make that uncomfortable
small talk for a bit and tell the same joke that
I've told for the last three meetings. How do
we bring people in in a way that's comfortable?
And as I said before, how do we meet people where
they are? Yes. You're making me think of, I remember
years ago working with a fellow psychologist
and we'd do these training events, full day training
events, and we'd just do an introductory kind
of coffee in the morning and then we'd start.
And she would not only know everybody's name,
but she'd know how many children they had, where
they lived, where they'd been on holiday and
what their hobbies were. And I used to just look
at her like she was an alien. But that was her
superpower. She was so incredibly warm and she
would walk around the room genuinely fascinated
by these people. And then that would just breed
this lovely atmosphere, lovely warm atmosphere.
So like you say, some people have just got that,
haven't they? And it's great that you talk about
that positively because sometimes some people
will go. I look at that and go, I should be able
to do that. I remember relatively early in my
career, I was in probably managerial positions
and I was working with a woman who was doing
the same role as me and brilliant, great leader,
great manager. And her superpower was her ability
to retain data like I'd never seen before. And
somebody could ask a data stat and she'd be able
to go, well, Three weeks ago, we saw this rate
of sale or we sold this or whatever. She could
just recall this data. And I used to really get
in my head about it. I used to kind of go, how
do I get this retained in my brain? And it's
not my superpower. So I can remember a lot of
statistics and a lot of storytelling statistics.
But three weeks ago in this store on a product,
what did we sell? I'm probably going to have
to go and look somewhere for it. But the more
I reflected on it, the more I tried to do it,
the more I couldn't do it, the more effort it
took, the more energy it took, the more frustrated
I got when I couldn't remember it. And I remember
being very vulnerable with my manager at the
time and going, I wish I was more like this person.
And they said, if I asked you that question,
would you know where to go to get the answer?
I went, yeah. They went, well, then why are you
trying to hold it in your head? And that is something
that has stuck with me. As long as I know where
to go to get the answer, I don't need to carry
it in my head. Now, again, that's a vulnerability
because sometimes you'll get the question. And
again, whether it's your imposter syndrome or
whether it's the leadership or whatever it is,
when a big boss asks you the question, it's really
brave to go, I don't know, but I'll come back
to you. Because you start going, well, What's
the repercussions? And do you operate in a safe
environment where you can do that? And I'm lucky
that I do because I bring a whole load of other
things into the conversation that might not be
that specific data point. But if that's what
you want to know, I'll get you the answer. But
actually, your question behind the question might
mean that I can tell you this, this, this, this
and this. Thought diversity. The question you're
asking me right now. might not be the conversation
that we're actually going to have, which might
get us to a broader answer or a different answer.
Yeah, and that's that whole... You know, you're
talking about one of the elements of imposter
syndrome is comparing ourselves to other people
too much and in particular, comparing ourselves
to all the good things other people can do. Yes.
You're saying that you've got the stato of your
world who can just list off statistics like that,
which is amazing. And then we go, well, I want
to do that. And there's nothing wrong with wanting
to get better at something, is there? However,
there is also power in saying, well, that's your
superpower. That's something that you're good
at. And probably because. that lifts that woman's
energy and is something that she's always enjoyed
doing and probably serves her purpose. And your
energy comes from somewhere else. And your purpose
is more about creating these environments that
make people feel brave and courageous. And so
you don't need stats for that. What you need
is to pay attention to the people, be kind, build
a feeling of belonging, understand yourself.
understand other people's emotions all the things
you've been talking about all the way through
that's the stuff that fires you up isn't it that's
the stuff that feeds your soul that's why you're
good at that and then we come back well that's
the magic of diversity because if you speak to
the person who i'm going wow you can hold all
this information Nine times out of 10, they're
looking at you going, I wish I could tell that
story. I've got all these data stats. I wish
I could put them into a story. Yeah, absolutely.
So it's that growth mindset idea that we all
are capable of improvement and we absolutely
are. However, it doesn't mean we have to improve
on everything. I think that's the bit sometimes
people miss because it's all about interest and
passion, isn't it? It's going to take you a long
time to rewire your brain. So you have to really
want, to rewire your brain. It has to mean something
to you, doesn't it? You have to care. You have
to care about it. So as a kind of final things,
I don't want to finish without talking about
the raising the glass. Does that fit with this
kind of identifying your own purpose? Is that
an initiative that helps you form that? or has
it come out of that clarity? Is it linked? It
is linked and also very muddled. Lovely. So for
anybody who doesn't know, Raising the Glass is
a not -for -profit organisation that exists to
create meaningful connections for women and allies
in the drinks industry. And it is fundamentally
based on some of my experiences as I came into
the drinks industry. So I, in my career, have
worked in different organizations and different
categories, different product groups, confectionery,
pet food, dairy, protein, you know, some very
similar ones and some very different ones. But
my experience of moving into the drinks industry
was a little bit of imposter syndrome, which
we've spoken about. Huge excitement. Who doesn't
want to be involved in this category? And some
moments of, ooh, it's 2024. Did I just catch
that comment right? Did I just... Is that data
stack right? Are over 70 % of women thinking
about leaving the drinks industry because they're
worried about safety, linking perhaps to sexual
harassment, for example, if you are working in
potentially the hospitality industry? It is not
a safe industry for everybody. And so Raising
the Glass was set up on the belief that... everybody
should feel seen valued heard and the opportunities
are abundant for everyone in their career and
that everybody should feel safe and so how is
raising the glass doing that what are you creating
we're creating a community uh -huh um and i think
if you'd asked me Before it was up and running,
how is it going to do it? What is it going to
do? The answer would have been very different.
It would have been quite functional. It would
have been, we've got networking events, we've
got a podcast, we've got mentoring. All of those
are really important. We get people in the room
with the networking and we create opportunities
for people to connect. The podcast for those
introverted people who don't want to sit in a
room allows you to listen to some great connections.
I am super, super proud of the mentoring program.
So we set that up recently and that is creating
mentoring opportunities and mentee opportunities
within the drinks industry. Because again, psychological
safety, you might want to talk about experiences
and you might want to talk about it with somebody
who isn't in your organization or you might want
to broaden your network. But now that the community
is helping grow and evolve. what raising the
glass is. So the vision will never change. It
is about creating those connections in a meaningful
way. How we do it might shift. How we communicate
might shift. But the biggest bit for me, going
back to the question of was it, I suppose, coming
out of learnings and things is I have got more
comfortable with myself as I've got older. Yes.
And that comes over. And we talk a lot about
you kind of get to an age and you do just and
we're struggling to crystallize what it is. But
there's a little bit of the Greg Wallace example
where he said it was certain women of a certain
age criticizing his behavior. Well, of course
it was, because in my 40s, I'm probably in a
more comfortable position with my friendship
groups. with my family, financially, from a work
point of view, that I probably will put my head
above the parapet. And I'm just a little bit
more comfortable in myself. What's the worst
that can happen is more dealable with for me
now. Stuff that I experienced in my 20s, even
in my 30s, if I experienced it now, I would deal
with it very differently because I back myself
a little bit more. My support network is fantastic
and backs me a little bit more. So that's given
me the confidence. And as I say, Raising the
Glass was set up off a few of my personal experiences
within the span of about six weeks working in
the drinks industry. And a little bit of checking
in with the cheerleaders. What do you think?
This is what I'm feeling. And then people who
had either worked in the industry for ages or
people who were my, the people I just looked
at went, you're absolutely brilliant. We're going,
this is a brilliant idea. Then you go, right,
there's something in it. You set up an initiative
like that. You turn up to the first networking
event. You cross your fingers and hope that there's
more than three people in the audience. And there
were. And there have been ever since. And we
have sold out events and we have great podcasting
streams. And then it comes full circle because
now I've got a voice. Madeleine Albright was
right. Now I've found my voice. I'm not going
to silence it, not just because it's my voice,
but because I do feel a responsibility, which
I'm so grateful for. To be the voice of people
who haven't found their voice yet. Yeah. And
that's not just a raising the glass, women in
drinks, women in leadership. That's a woman with
a non -visible disability. That's neurodiversity.
I have the privilege of being a voice for my
children whilst they grow into their voices.
And actually, my daughter had some things going
on at school and was called into a meeting. And
she said, will you come to the meeting? I said,
of course I will. It was relating to some education
stuff with her exams. I heard her talking to
her sister saying, well, I'm quite excited about
the meeting, but my mum will be in the room as
well and she'll help if I don't know what to
say or can't find my voice. And I thought, your
EQ is going to be pretty strong when you grow
up into a 40 -year -old woman because it's pretty
awesome now. So I think my leadership journey
has absolutely crystallised itself with... being
comfortable to use my voice to help the voices
of others. And why wouldn't it be when my superpower
is storytelling? Yes. And it seems like you said
you have learned about yourself over the years
and that's been your journey. However, what I'm
hearing is something similar but subtly different.
I think you've learned to believe in yourself.
Yes. And that's what the difference is. So now
you believe that you have the right to use your
voice. You believe you have something worthy
and valuable to say. You believe in you and the
things that you stand for. It's really easy to
say, just believe in yourself. And if anybody
listening thinks they're going to get a brilliant
nugget of information, my nugget of information
is not believe in yourself because that's really
hard to do. Surround yourself by people who believe
in you. And then you start to believe in yourself.
And those people who truly believe in you, your
cheerleaders, those people who have got your
back, they're not going to tell you you're right
all the time. They're not going to tell you you're
the best all the time. You don't want that though,
do you? They are not helping your journey. You
want the people who are going to go. Just sense
check that. Sense check that. What would you
tell, just to kind of summarise that, if you
could go back and whisper in your younger ear
when you were kind of in your teens, early 20s
and kind of starting out in your career, what
would you whisper in your own ear to help the
journey? What I would whisper in my own ear would
be, just hold on, the world's going to change.
What I would... whisper in the ear of somebody
today, you know, teens looking into careers,
it is actually probably that the world will change
and you will change. Don't rush for perfection
because that growth mindset, you'll probably
never achieve it. If you do, tell me how you
got there. As I say, don't let great get in the
way of good and good is good enough. But the
best bit of advice I would give to my younger
self is to be kind. Be kind to those around you.
Be kind to everybody. And please never forget
to be kind to yourself. Absolutely. Probably
the most important one, isn't it? And the one
that often... It's lower down the list. It is.
That analogy of put your own oxygen on yourself
so that you can help others. Anybody who has
heard that has probably gone, well, no, I'm going
to put on that person, that person, that person,
that person. And we all would. We would all put
an oxygen mask on our children, our loved ones,
our friends, our family. But you still have to
create space because if there is nothing left
in your bucket, nothing left, you can't be there
for others. And I guarantee to anyone listening,
You are so inspirational and so valued by so
many people that you have a responsibility to
keep your bucket full so you can continue to
support and help them. Yes. So turning up your
own inner cheerleader and dialing down your own
inner critic and just realizing that you are
having a positive impact. You are valuable and
you do belong. And you are good enough. I love
it, Ron. Wow. That's been absolutely great. What's
so lovely, I think, is listening to a leader
in such a fast moving environment at such a senior
level, talking about things like kindness and
belonging and facilitating the empowerment and
autonomy of others. I think that is incredibly
inspiring. So thank you so much. I have no doubt
the listeners to Leadership Journeys will have
found that really inspiring. So I really appreciate
it. Thank you for having me. You're like a big
sister sometimes to me. So this has been very,
very easy to record. So thank you. Coming up
next time. I was working for one business and
the environment was very toxic. I was miserable.
I thought that I could overcome it and just keep
going. I did a great job. I was still moving
my way up in my career. I thought I have to do
something different. One of the worst points
when an ambulance had to be called because I
couldn't breathe at work. It was anxiety. It
was a panic attack. And so I thought, right,
this has to change. I really, really want to
make sure that whatever I do, it's helping other
people. I could see a lot of other people going
through the same thing.