WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm psychologist and author Leona Deakin,

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and this is Leadership Journeys, where I talk

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to women from diverse worlds who've achieved

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extraordinary things to find out what enabled

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them to survive and to thrive. Last week, we

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heard from ex -England cricketer Holly Colvin,

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who talked about her amazing career as part of

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the World Cup winning England team, but that

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it just didn't feed her soul and how she learned

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that really by following her gut, well, that

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was the way to true fulfilment. This week on

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Leadership Journeys. Everybody at some point

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may be experiencing something different or may

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be experiencing a degree of being a minority

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or being othered. And that's why you lead with

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kindness. I have had feedback that I communicate

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well. And the reason why I say that comfortably

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now, not necessarily confidently, but comfortably,

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is because actually I'm doing a disservice to

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all those people that have given me that feedback.

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Words are, for me, one of my superpowers. Can

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kindness be the key to being a great boss? On

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this episode, I'm talking to Rebecca Oliver Mooney

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or ROM, head of commercial for Co -op and founder

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of Raising the Glass, an initiative that creates

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meaningful connections that drive inclusivity

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for women and allies in the drinks industry.

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It's a really cool initiative. It's got a podcast,

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networking events and a mentoring program. ROM

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herself has over 20 years experience in FMCG,

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fast moving consumer goods with brands such as

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Mars, Nestle, Kellogg's and Muller. Just making

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me hungry just reading those. She is a passionate

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advocate for inspiring and engaging people through

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great communication and the use of stories. So

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we have lots in common. And I was on Rom's podcast,

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Raising the Glass Before Christmas, and we had

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a blast. So I'm really looking forward to this

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conversation. I want to hear what she's learned

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about achieving commercial success, but also

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why supporting other women is so very important

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to her. Hiya, Rom! Thanks for having me. It's

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lovely. It's lovely to be here in your home in

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the middle of nowhere. Middle of nowhere. Yeah.

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Oh, I'm very jealous of this. Yes. Well, it's

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great when you're planning to work from home

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or in the holidays. But yeah, when the weather

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hits you and you can't get out of the drive,

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sometimes it's not quite as convenient. No. Right.

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So let's delve in. So your job for the co -op.

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So the co -op is quite a cool organisation and

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has a predominantly female leadership. profile

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at the moment, doesn't it? Which is really, really

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interesting considering the nature of many sort

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of large corporate organisations. So just tell

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me a little bit about your role and the co -op

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and what that's like to work in. Just give us

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a little bit of a flavour of your day to day.

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So I work within the commercial team at the co

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-op and I look after certain categories. So I

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have the pleasure of looking after frozen. I

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look after what we term community buying. So

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that's where we bring together areas where we

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focus on buying with a community in mind. So

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that could be our world foods area. It could

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be our local area supporting local communities.

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And it's our area where we look at working with

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our small suppliers. So we have an incubator

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and an accelerator scheme called the apiary.

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And I also look after drinks as well, which is

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a fantastically exciting category to be part

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of. I have worked for the co -op for about four

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and a half years now. It is, as you say, quite

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unique sometimes because we are an ethical retailer

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and that runs through all of our DNA. So for

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anybody that doesn't know, the co -operative

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movement was the pioneer movement. It was founded

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over 180 years ago and the ethos of what set

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that movement up today still runs through our

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DNA. At the moment, there's a lot of people talking

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about whether DE &I should be rebranded to FAIR

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or even more worryingly, is it time to pedal

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back? And I'm super proud to work for an organization

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where we're not pedaling back. But more than

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that, we've got leadership that actually promotes

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the fact that we're not pedaling back. And we'll

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talk about that and make everybody realize how

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important. And look. Statistically, you can see

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that DE &I really makes a difference to organizations

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and they thrive. But at the moment where there's

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a lot of noise about it, to have an organization

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that stands up and says, we're going again, is

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brilliant. And I have a very unique experience

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because I work in an organization where my leader

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is a woman, my CFO is a woman, my CEO is a woman.

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and you kind of stop seeing the challenge sometimes

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when you're surrounded by not just gender, but

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also leadership that centers around protected

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characteristics being visible, then you sort

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of think everybody has that experience. And sometimes

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you have to fact check yourself and realize that

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not everybody has the privilege of working in

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an organization that continuously strives to

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deliver. and make sure that we have an inclusive

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culture so that everyone can be their authentic

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selves at work. Yeah, there's so many interesting

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things in there. So the acronyms you use in there,

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the DE &I, that's all the diversity. Diversity,

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equity and inclusion. And what was the second

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acronym you used with the F? So people are talking

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about rebranding it to FAIR and centering around,

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I suppose, still the degree of inclusivity, but

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the fairness behind it and losing actually some,

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I suppose, of that. diversity. For me, the biggest

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bit that it boils down to is inclusion and inclusivity

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and belonging. Everybody wants to feel that they

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belong. And I think that when you are in the

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corporate world or any job, you really need to

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understand that the lens that you look through

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might not be a lens that everybody experiences.

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So how can you be more empathic or how can you

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be more aware and therefore perhaps understand

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that you may need to do things differently to

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ensure that everybody just belongs. Yes. And

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that belonging is so powerful, isn't it? On a

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motivational level, feeling like we have value

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and that people care about what we do, the impact

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we have, who we are. You know, these are quite

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fundamental things, aren't they? Of feeling connected

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to the world. But you're saying that the co -op

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as a brand, it started out being one where it

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was... very integrity -led, sort of values -led.

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So what are the values that sit within that brand

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then that you see living and breathing? Because

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organisations talk about values all the time,

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but they're just stuck on a piece of paper on

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the wall. It sounds like you experience them.

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Is that right? Yeah, I have worked in a couple

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of really value -led organisations in my time

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where you do feel them. I have worked for organisations

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where it is, here's some values and can you recite

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them and do you know what they mean? Where I

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see it working really well, and the co -op is

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an example of that, is people will talk about

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how it makes them feel. So it's not necessarily

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this is a behavior that I can frame. We do have

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that. But it's more about the culture. And does

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everybody experience that culture in the same

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way? Now, we're all individuals, so we'll take

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it in in different ways and we'll roll it around

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in our minds a bit and it will mean something

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different. If you can feel that you're in a culture

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that everybody is having the same experience

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of and that links back to the company's values,

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you could say Co -op was very lucky because we

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were founded on the values of this pioneering

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movement and the fact that even today we still

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believe that we have a responsibility as an ethical.

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But you're a senior leader in this organisation.

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So what does that mean for you in terms of leading

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your people? What does that require of you as

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a leader that you do to make people feel that

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sense of the culture coming to life and belonging

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and being fair and ethical? What does that mean?

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Some of it is, you know, you can lean into the

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values and the behaviours that we talk about.

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Cooperation is a big thing for us. We're the

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co -op and cooperation with the... Supply base

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is important, but also cooperating with your

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colleagues and your team. And when you think

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about that element of belonging, and we've spoken

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about it before, it's rooted in you. You want

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to belong because it's linked to safety. These

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are the people in my tribe that I am safe with

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and I belong with. And I think sometimes when

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you work in large organizations and you have

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lots of different teams. You can get a brilliant

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sense of belonging within your team that you

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work with day in and day out. And then suddenly

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you see another team, another tribe, and sometimes

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their objective might be slightly different.

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And it's trying to boil it back down to what

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is the common goal that we're all trying to deliver

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against? What is it within those key performance

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indicators, those KPIs where we can align? And

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I think being able to create environments where

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you can have conversations, you can have the

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right conversation the right way. And I think

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sometimes, certainly earlier on in my career

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when I was learning and growing and I talk about

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accidental management, often you're doing really

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well in a role and you take a step up to the

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next level and you become almost overnight a

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people leader. And I think actually sometimes

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you grow into that confidence of how do we have

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the conversations in the right way? And they

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can be challenging conversations are OK. done

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in the right way. And I think, again, anchoring

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back to the behaviors of things like cooperation,

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fairness, equity can help you benchmark your

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behaviors. Autonomy is a big one for me, empowering

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the team. As I said, I work with the drinks category

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now. And I came into that 18 months ago with

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very limited knowledge and a team who are absolutely

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brilliant. And I mean really, really brilliant,

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particularly in some of the categories like wine,

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where it's very nuanced and there's a lot of

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qualifications. And I'm still there going, is

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this red or white? Whilst I'd grown up with people

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who drank wine, I hadn't experienced necessarily

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a lifestyle of getting over familiar with all

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these amazing products. And you go through a

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moment of huge imposter syndrome. Yeah. And then

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I got to a place of actually, I'm not here to

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make a decision on which wine we're going to

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blend. If any of my team are listening, they'll

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be delightfully relieved that I realised that

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very quickly. I'm here to add value in different

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ways. But again, I'm a little bit more comfortable

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in my skin now to say I might not know everything

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about that, but the team are brilliant and let

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me... get them to answer the question or share

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their thoughts with you, as opposed to having

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all the answers to all the questions, which I

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think. Probably earlier on in my career, my imposter

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syndrome showed up in a way that made me feel

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like I had to know everything about everything.

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Yes. I think it's really common, isn't it? That

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particularly when people are new into management

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and leadership, that you feel like you're being

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paid to know, you're being paid to solve the

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problems and make the decisions. That's your

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role. And so we can fall into the trap of continuing

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to be the doer. Yes. Whereas actually what you're

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saying there is. The thing that, well, there's

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a few things going on there, isn't there? One,

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you're reframing your role. So not having to

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have all the answers, not having to know all

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the intricacies of the wine, but actually being

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the facilitator of other people's performance

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and other people's expertise. And then the ways

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that you're doing that, one, obviously creating

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that sense of belonging. but also empowering

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and giving autonomy to people so that they can

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presumably choose their own way of doing things

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within an agreed kind of parameter of what we're

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trying to, where we're trying to get to. What's

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the end in mind? And a lot of the time, somebody

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else's way will be different and often much better

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than the way I would have done it. And again.

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For me, that links back to the diversity point.

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And I suppose thought diversity, if we're all

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going the same way from a kind of an instruction

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down of this is the way we're going to do it,

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we're going to lose something somewhere along

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the way. We're going to miss an opportunity.

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We might take a bit longer to do something or

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do it in a way that maybe costs more to the business.

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So I think that. empowerment is really, really

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important for individuals. I do think people

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perform better when they feel trusted and valued

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and empowered, as long as they've got a framework

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to feel supported. But I think it's often better

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for businesses. And I think that bit between

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the doing element, spoiler alert, the doing never

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goes, but you're doing changes. And I talk a

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lot to my team of leaders around, you know, leading

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versus doing. creating a framework because everybody

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needs to grow and develop into that bit. And

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the more you dip into the doing, you're taking

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learning opportunities away. So the analogy I

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use is tying shoelaces. So for anybody who has

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children, this may well resonate. But when you

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have a young child and a toddler and they're

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learning to tie their shoelaces, getting out

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.360
of the house is a nightmare. You don't get anywhere

00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.509
on time because If that child is adamant they're

00:14:00.509 --> 00:14:02.690
trying to learn to tie their shoelaces, there's

00:14:02.690 --> 00:14:06.549
no negotiating with them. So you can put them

00:14:06.549 --> 00:14:08.610
in Velcro shoes for a little bit longer and you

00:14:08.610 --> 00:14:10.470
can tie them themselves and get them out of the

00:14:10.470 --> 00:14:12.970
door. But every time you do that, you take away

00:14:12.970 --> 00:14:15.309
the opportunity for them to learn to tie their

00:14:15.309 --> 00:14:18.809
own shoes and you just prolong the learning experience.

00:14:18.889 --> 00:14:22.950
So I'm a huge fan of giving people space and

00:14:22.950 --> 00:14:25.230
the safety network to learn to tie their own

00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:27.370
shoes and learn and grow and evolve in their

00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:31.450
roles. I love that. When and how did you learn

00:14:31.450 --> 00:14:33.190
this, do you think, when you look back in your

00:14:33.190 --> 00:14:34.769
career? So you said you came into management.

00:14:34.850 --> 00:14:36.470
There was a bit of imposter syndrome. You were

00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:38.490
thinking it was one thing. And then at some point

00:14:38.490 --> 00:14:41.870
the penny dropped or what went on there? Were

00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:44.830
there some experiences? It's all experience based.

00:14:45.789 --> 00:14:49.129
Some of the major learnings in my, I was going

00:14:49.129 --> 00:14:51.250
to say in my career, but in my life have come

00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:54.039
at the crux of. almost sometimes things being

00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.360
taken out of your control so you experience in

00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:59.419
a different way. I think for me there are times

00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:03.960
where you work in a certain way, you're doing

00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:05.759
the doing, you're taking more stuff, you're doing

00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.320
the doing, you're doing the doing, you're churning

00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.179
things out and it could be that you realise that

00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:14.159
maybe somebody who's been a high performer suddenly

00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:18.679
isn't performing as well. And that could be your

00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:20.759
impact on them, you know, because you've kind

00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:23.320
of come in and you've overmanaged and you've

00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:27.240
micromanaged. I talk a lot about don't let great

00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.620
get in the way of good. And sometimes good is

00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:33.440
good enough. And those moments of learning normally

00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.019
come when you're kind of in a real moment of

00:15:36.019 --> 00:15:39.340
crunch and something might have to fall off.

00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.960
And that presentation that you spent ages titivating

00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.179
around the edge, do you know what? It's good

00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:47.879
enough. And then you realize that actually it

00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.059
was good enough. And it's not saying that you're

00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:53.159
lowering your standards. It's just actually you're

00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.500
moving your capacity of work elsewhere. Yes.

00:15:57.059 --> 00:16:00.460
Trust is a huge thing for me. I learned throughout

00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:03.539
my career. For some people, trust just exists.

00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:08.220
Psychological safety just exists until it doesn't.

00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:11.659
For others, you have to see that it's there.

00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.039
It almost has to be built up for you. I've struggled

00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:17.980
a lot with psychological safety. Okay. Tell us

00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:20.500
a bit about that then. So what are your insights

00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:22.899
into that? What's been your challenge? I have

00:16:22.899 --> 00:16:25.039
been in rooms where I have felt there hasn't

00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.179
been psychological safety. Okay. And again, as

00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:30.120
I've grown in my career and I've become a bit

00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:31.960
more confident and I've been confident enough

00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:34.799
to talk about it. And I've said, I'm not too

00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.679
sure psychological safety exists here. And the

00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.860
voice around the room will be, it does. Of course

00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:44.669
it's safe. I'm thinking. It doesn't. How can

00:16:44.669 --> 00:16:47.389
these people just feel that it exists? And what

00:16:47.389 --> 00:16:50.409
did you feel was missing? What was your concern

00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:53.330
when you look back? Like you must have been feeling

00:16:53.330 --> 00:16:56.289
a bit of anxiety there about speaking up, speaking

00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:58.649
out, those kinds of things, were you? Absolutely.

00:16:58.809 --> 00:17:00.950
I think, and again, I think I've grown in my

00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:02.889
career to be more comfortable about speaking

00:17:02.889 --> 00:17:07.930
up and speaking out. So that's part of it. But

00:17:07.930 --> 00:17:10.849
I think the moment of crystallization for me

00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:13.900
was, These two schools of thought of psychological

00:17:13.900 --> 00:17:15.980
safety exists until it doesn't, or you build

00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:18.920
it and exists, that there's a third school of

00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:21.720
thought, which is for some people, psychological

00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:26.660
safety at work may never exist, particularly

00:17:26.660 --> 00:17:28.720
when you consider protected characteristics.

00:17:28.819 --> 00:17:31.119
And I was having a conversation recently on the

00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:35.059
Raising the Glass podcast about for some people

00:17:35.059 --> 00:17:38.400
of color, psychological safety will never exist

00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.319
in the work environment. And it made me realize

00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.680
that actually maybe my approach to psychological

00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:46.900
safety is that it does need to be proven for

00:17:46.900 --> 00:17:50.599
me to believe it exists because of the protective

00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.900
characteristics that I walk into a room with.

00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:58.779
And I think one of my biggest reflections is

00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:02.759
meeting people where they are and just being

00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.279
aware. And it's not enough to say psychological

00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:07.619
safety exists or it's not enough to say we will

00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:11.329
build it. You have to feel it. Yes. And everybody's

00:18:11.329 --> 00:18:13.250
different and everybody takes things in differently.

00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:15.769
So the only person who can truly tell you whether

00:18:15.769 --> 00:18:18.109
they've got psychological safety is an individual.

00:18:19.150 --> 00:18:20.990
Now, you can be a bit brave in that space. You

00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:24.890
can go, I think it exists. I'm going to speak

00:18:24.890 --> 00:18:28.109
up. I'm going to speak out. But I think if you

00:18:28.109 --> 00:18:30.349
are an individual who sat in a room going, of

00:18:30.349 --> 00:18:33.589
course, psychological safety exists. Please don't

00:18:33.589 --> 00:18:35.730
say that. That's not the comment we need you

00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:38.470
to say. We need you to speak up and speak out

00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:42.329
and show us. that it exists in the way you behave

00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:45.029
and the way you help therefore create that space

00:18:45.029 --> 00:18:47.490
for others. Yeah. So it's a bit of that. There

00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:49.789
is no reality. There's only perceptions of reality.

00:18:49.990 --> 00:18:52.910
And so if I'm saying, hey, this team is psychologically

00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:55.789
safe, that's because I feel psychologically safe.

00:18:55.910 --> 00:18:57.549
So I suppose the point you're making is that

00:18:57.549 --> 00:19:00.150
doesn't mean everybody else does as well. Yes.

00:19:00.289 --> 00:19:03.230
But me coming into that team may go, I don't

00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:06.210
know anybody in this team or my viewpoint is

00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:07.970
different. And that's fine because we're trying

00:19:07.970 --> 00:19:10.809
to drive thought diversity. But But nobody else

00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:14.829
has socialized this idea yet. And why not? And

00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:17.589
maybe I shouldn't. And then we're way, way back

00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:19.930
slammed into imposter syndrome, or as we like

00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:22.210
to try to rebrand it, improver syndrome. Improver

00:19:22.210 --> 00:19:23.670
syndrome. I remember you talking to me about

00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:26.450
that on the last time we spoke in your podcast.

00:19:26.509 --> 00:19:28.490
And I really like that kind of flipping of it.

00:19:28.509 --> 00:19:30.950
I think anything where we have the power to reframe

00:19:30.950 --> 00:19:32.910
something is incredibly powerful and understanding

00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:37.039
that. mindset change can affect so much. It can

00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.000
affect how you feel about yourself. It can affect

00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:40.900
your actions, all of those things, can't it?

00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.079
But this whole thing about that psychological

00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.420
safety is just making me think, as well as those

00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:47.440
protected characteristics, like you were saying,

00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:51.759
there are some categories of... people who might

00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.680
struggle to feel psychologically safe just in

00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.339
general and it was making me think ah yeah no

00:19:57.339 --> 00:19:59.319
but from a psychological point of view there

00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.220
will be some people who for their own reasons

00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:05.799
their self -esteem is damaged and very low their

00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:10.000
ability to trust has been kind of weathered away

00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.740
and so they are more vulnerable as a character

00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:17.059
and so even though the circumstances around them

00:20:17.059 --> 00:20:19.960
might be really supportive and caring doesn't

00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.319
necessarily it's not a cause and effect they've

00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.579
got a longer journey and i suppose that's the

00:20:24.579 --> 00:20:26.460
point you're making isn't it to not assume that

00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:30.440
we're all the same yeah you never ever ever know

00:20:31.109 --> 00:20:33.549
what's going on behind the scenes. Yeah. You

00:20:33.549 --> 00:20:36.990
just don't. And we talked earlier about some

00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:39.730
of the fantastic leadership I get to experience

00:20:39.730 --> 00:20:43.410
at Co -op. But Shireen, our CEO, recently came

00:20:43.410 --> 00:20:46.269
out and talked about how we're not dialing back

00:20:46.269 --> 00:20:50.710
on DE &I. And she referenced the fact that everybody

00:20:50.710 --> 00:20:54.390
will experience being a minority at some point,

00:20:54.509 --> 00:20:57.029
which is quite a statement because we don't often

00:20:57.029 --> 00:21:00.859
feel that. But it could be gender, it could be

00:21:00.859 --> 00:21:04.640
ethnicity, it could be lower socioeconomic background,

00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.859
it could be age. And then you have that aha moment.

00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:12.799
All of us at some point, if we're lucky, will

00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:16.700
experience being a minority of old age. Yes.

00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:20.500
So we all potentially in our lifetime will experience

00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:24.059
that. So therefore you can say... You don't know

00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:25.680
what's going on in anybody's life at all, but

00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.000
everybody at some point may be experiencing something

00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.599
different or may be experiencing a degree of

00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.680
being a minority or being othered. And that's

00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.759
why you lead with kindness. Yes, I was going

00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:39.539
to come on to that because I mean, but it's very

00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:42.940
powerful to have your most senior leader actually

00:21:42.940 --> 00:21:47.039
explicitly talking about diversity and respecting

00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:51.119
diversity and the fact we all. are diverse. Yes.

00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.960
That's, I imagine, sets a tone within the organization.

00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.059
But that whole thing about leading with kindness.

00:21:58.099 --> 00:21:59.500
So if we get to that behavioral level, because

00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:03.460
I know you're a really passionate communicator

00:22:03.460 --> 00:22:06.119
and you like stories and you feel that's really

00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.480
important within your leadership impact to communicate

00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.539
and communicate well. And then there's the kindness

00:22:12.539 --> 00:22:14.059
thing as well. So tell us a little bit about

00:22:14.059 --> 00:22:16.660
the more tactical side of how you lead and the

00:22:16.660 --> 00:22:20.190
things you've found over the years. help you

00:22:20.190 --> 00:22:22.710
to get the best out of the people that you're

00:22:22.710 --> 00:22:26.569
responsible for? I think the reason why I love

00:22:26.569 --> 00:22:29.890
stories so much is because when you use the word

00:22:29.890 --> 00:22:31.670
story, everybody gets a little smile on their

00:22:31.670 --> 00:22:34.430
face and they go back to a place of remembering

00:22:34.430 --> 00:22:39.950
somebody telling them a story. Stories have the

00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:44.009
power to connect us. Stories have been part of

00:22:44.009 --> 00:22:47.650
our communication toolkit from the moment we

00:22:47.650 --> 00:22:52.009
could communicate. We sat around fires and told

00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:54.750
stories. And again, those stories were stories

00:22:54.750 --> 00:22:59.349
of fantastic achievements, of hunting beasts

00:22:59.349 --> 00:23:02.849
and of succeeding, or stories of don't go near

00:23:02.849 --> 00:23:05.029
the monsters, the people who are different to

00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:11.490
us. Our communication is in our DNA. And therefore,

00:23:11.589 --> 00:23:15.029
that coupled with the emotive connections that

00:23:15.029 --> 00:23:18.509
you can get, I am a really firm believer of storytelling.

00:23:19.309 --> 00:23:22.490
as a form of communication because we buy into

00:23:22.490 --> 00:23:25.210
that because if you're storytelling rather than

00:23:25.210 --> 00:23:29.869
presenting you're connecting emotions and feelings

00:23:29.869 --> 00:23:33.509
and language is more than just the words that

00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:36.190
are coming out of your mouth it's our body language

00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:40.730
it's our tonality it's how you leave people feeling

00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:44.910
and to be clear I'm not saying that I start every

00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:48.259
meeting with people with a once upon a time There

00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:51.759
was a girl called Ron. You can storytell in short,

00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.259
short moments and you'll be able to think of

00:23:54.259 --> 00:23:56.039
the people who you go, they're really powerful

00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:58.359
communicators. They have everybody hanging on

00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.039
there. What's the next sentence that's going

00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.480
to come out of the mouth? What's the punchline

00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.319
that we all know you're getting to, but we're

00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.559
following the cadence of the story? Throughout

00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:09.599
my career, and it's taken me a long time to say

00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.000
this, so if you'd asked me this probably even

00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.259
five years ago, I would have gone, oh, I don't

00:24:13.259 --> 00:24:18.319
know. I have had feedback that I communicate

00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.779
well. And the reason why I say that comfortably

00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:24.099
now, not necessarily confidently, but comfortably,

00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.140
is because actually I'm doing a disservice to

00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:28.720
all those people that have given me that feedback

00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.140
and said, can you help me or how do you do it?

00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:34.059
Because if I go, well, I'm not really very good,

00:24:34.099 --> 00:24:37.640
then that discredits everybody else's feelings.

00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:42.000
So I hear the feedback and I reflect on it. And

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.819
I am lucky that it's one of, One of my skills.

00:24:45.940 --> 00:24:48.299
I often say words are my numbers. Spoiler alert,

00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:51.180
numbers are also my numbers. But words are my

00:24:51.180 --> 00:24:55.759
numbers. Words are, for me, one of my superpowers.

00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:59.779
Yes. So why do you think it makes you feel uncomfortable

00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:05.759
to say, I'm a good communicator? Because probably

00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.119
there's some point in my childhood where I stood

00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.579
up to present at school and I fumbled over a

00:25:10.579 --> 00:25:12.519
word and I can remember somebody picking on it.

00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:15.559
And therefore, I can't say that 100 % of the

00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:18.680
time I've been a brilliant communicator. That's

00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.900
my, you know, the little six, seven year old

00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:24.400
Roman will sometimes still rear her head. So

00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.099
that's that perfectionistic kind of approach,

00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.380
isn't it? If I haven't done it perfectly right

00:25:30.380 --> 00:25:34.259
every single time, then I can't claim that. Yes.

00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.759
Particular talent, as it were. And I think, certainly

00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.720
for me as an individual, I do not think I'm alone

00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:46.220
in this statement. If I put my head above the

00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:49.680
parapet, back to that psychological safety, what

00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.279
if somebody says, well, I don't like your communication

00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.559
style? Or no, you're not. So we almost sort of

00:25:55.559 --> 00:26:00.180
quench our own superpower down to protect it

00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:04.910
so that nobody can... kind of throw a few things

00:26:04.910 --> 00:26:06.809
in over the side and go actually that that's

00:26:06.809 --> 00:26:09.630
not you at your best because then that really

00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:13.630
you know when when somebody challenges a super

00:26:13.630 --> 00:26:16.309
belief of your superpower that's really hard

00:26:16.309 --> 00:26:18.549
to come back from because that can shift all

00:26:18.549 --> 00:26:20.450
of the foundations that you've built so there's

00:26:20.450 --> 00:26:24.529
a risk to showing off your superpowers in that

00:26:24.529 --> 00:26:27.970
somebody might lob a tomato at you yeah yeah

00:26:27.970 --> 00:26:30.549
absolutely and I think something like communication

00:26:30.549 --> 00:26:33.970
is a really interesting one as well because I

00:26:33.970 --> 00:26:36.750
have had a career where I've been in the privileged

00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:39.529
position to do lots of presentations to sometimes

00:26:39.529 --> 00:26:42.809
big groups of people and you you get the adrenaline

00:26:42.809 --> 00:26:44.569
and you get the nerves and you present and you

00:26:44.569 --> 00:26:46.289
come off and everyone goes oh that's great you

00:26:46.289 --> 00:26:49.569
were really good you must really love it no and

00:26:49.569 --> 00:26:52.910
and then because You can perform in this space

00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:55.509
and it's not necessarily communication. For other

00:26:55.509 --> 00:26:57.450
people, it will be different things. Sometimes

00:26:57.450 --> 00:26:59.869
when you are in that space where you're just

00:26:59.869 --> 00:27:03.369
brilliantly great at something, you don't often

00:27:03.369 --> 00:27:05.589
get the feedback for it because people feel it

00:27:05.589 --> 00:27:10.250
comes easy to you. I find public speaking terrifying.

00:27:11.529 --> 00:27:14.849
There's a reason why glossophobia exists, the

00:27:14.849 --> 00:27:17.109
fear of public speaking. And actually more people

00:27:17.109 --> 00:27:19.309
are scared of that than they are of spiders and

00:27:19.309 --> 00:27:21.450
dying. So that goes to show how scary public

00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:25.910
speaking is. We're baring our soul, right? We're

00:27:25.910 --> 00:27:28.349
really opening ourselves up. So no wonder it's

00:27:28.349 --> 00:27:32.349
a terrifying experience. So I think that even

00:27:32.349 --> 00:27:35.970
when people are great at things, tell them that

00:27:35.970 --> 00:27:38.430
you think they're great at something. Yes. Because

00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:39.890
sometimes that's where we don't hear it enough.

00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.559
Absolutely. My younger sister is a trainer for

00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.119
hearing dogs for the deaf. And I remember her

00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.319
saying to me once, it's really easy to train

00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:51.619
a dog or any intelligent animal, really. You

00:27:51.619 --> 00:27:55.000
just reward the behavior you want more of and

00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:58.039
ignore the behavior you want less of. And I thought,

00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:01.900
huh, that is the opposite of what happens in

00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:05.099
organizations. As an employee in an organisation,

00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:07.000
you're constantly being told, well, these are

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:08.779
your areas for development. These are the things

00:28:08.779 --> 00:28:10.720
we want you to aspire to doing tomorrow. These

00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.799
are the things that you're not doing in the way

00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:17.380
we want you to do them. But that whole superpower

00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:20.140
where you handle yourself well in a meeting or

00:28:20.140 --> 00:28:22.359
you stand up and present really well, that's

00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:25.039
stuff that we take for granted because it looks

00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.200
like, well, you can already do it, so I don't

00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.079
need to tell you. However, what I'm hearing from

00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:32.589
you is that... Even when you can do something

00:28:32.589 --> 00:28:35.650
and communicate well, you're still experiencing

00:28:35.650 --> 00:28:39.109
the anxiety and the fear of getting up in front

00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:41.309
of those people and telling that story, even

00:28:41.309 --> 00:28:43.190
though you've prepared it, even though you know

00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:45.329
that they're going to enjoy it, even though you

00:28:45.329 --> 00:28:48.609
know you'll probably execute it well, you still

00:28:48.609 --> 00:28:53.609
feel that fear. And I think if we could be more,

00:28:53.609 --> 00:28:57.420
I suppose, open with our... reinforcement of

00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.220
others so when we see someone do something really

00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:03.500
well to say hey that's what you did really well

00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:05.940
in that moment and not just what did you say

00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:08.099
about um that was great you were brilliant you

00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:10.880
must really enjoy it which is nice to hear but

00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.420
is kind of an empty piece of feedback isn't it

00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:16.140
oh it must have been really easy for you yeah

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.460
whereas actually what you want to know is oh

00:29:18.460 --> 00:29:20.900
my gosh the way you made that point there the

00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:22.819
way you landed that evidence the preparation

00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:26.210
that must have gone in to making that point linked

00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:28.710
to that point. That was really smart. That was

00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:31.549
really clever. I'm going to remember that. So

00:29:31.549 --> 00:29:34.990
sometimes I think it's the richness of feedback,

00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:37.569
isn't it? That we really need. And even if we

00:29:37.569 --> 00:29:40.569
look really confident and competent, doesn't

00:29:40.569 --> 00:29:43.349
mean we feel it. We all, it's back to that sense

00:29:43.349 --> 00:29:45.509
of belonging. Feedback can really help you feel

00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:50.029
like you belong. And I think often you're right.

00:29:50.789 --> 00:29:53.230
You get told, here are all your development areas.

00:29:53.470 --> 00:29:56.019
Now. Let's just take a moment to acknowledge

00:29:56.019 --> 00:29:58.019
that 15 years ago, we were calling them weaknesses.

00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:00.420
So we've come a long way on that journey. Now

00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:02.900
they're our development areas. Go and work on

00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:07.920
them. And everybody has development areas. That's

00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.819
okay. I still haven't met somebody who's absolutely

00:30:11.819 --> 00:30:14.700
brilliant at every single thing because we're

00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:18.759
human. But I also absolutely subscribe to the

00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:23.279
school of thought of... It is definitely easier

00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.539
for you as an individual if you can do more of

00:30:26.539 --> 00:30:28.660
the stuff that you're great at. And that will

00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:33.559
probably have a bigger impact. So in my career,

00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.880
as I've kind of grown up through it, I have got

00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.880
comfortable with going, that is going to take

00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:44.079
a lot of energy for me to move into that space.

00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:46.779
There's somebody over there who is just brilliant

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:51.539
at it. I talk about superpowers. There's a couple

00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:54.359
of ways to identify them and I use both of them.

00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:58.539
One is when somebody says to you, how did you

00:30:58.539 --> 00:31:00.980
do that? And you go, what do you mean? That's

00:31:00.980 --> 00:31:03.680
just really easy. The bit you're missing off

00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:05.799
the end of that sentence is it's really easy

00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:08.460
for you. So if people are telling you you're

00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:09.980
doing something brilliant and you think it's

00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:13.619
really easy to do, that's your superpower. That's

00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:16.680
the bit that you can just do and own and help

00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.299
other people get better at by leading by example.

00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:23.420
The other bit I do is ask people what's missing

00:31:23.420 --> 00:31:25.640
when I'm not in the room. So what I'm not asking

00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:27.559
for is a, tell me the three things you think

00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:29.079
I'm good at and I should continue doing. Tell

00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:30.740
me the three things you think I should stop doing

00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:34.359
or start doing. What I'm saying is, what's missing

00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.059
when I'm not in the room? Because what I get

00:31:37.059 --> 00:31:41.880
through that question is, here's something that

00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:46.140
you are good at. Tick, that's nice for me. But

00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:51.079
also, and I really value it. Because if it's

00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:54.819
not in the room, it's been missed. And therefore

00:31:54.819 --> 00:31:57.460
you start to identify again what your superpowers

00:31:57.460 --> 00:32:00.400
are, but where they really show up and can influence.

00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:03.740
So have you done that for yourself? Like asking

00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:07.319
people that question? Yes. Yes. And that has

00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:11.519
helped you to really understand the impact that

00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.019
your presence has. It's helped me understand

00:32:14.019 --> 00:32:16.079
the impact that my presence has. It's helped

00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:18.450
me understand the impact that... when I'm not

00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:21.029
operating within my guardrails, I can have that

00:32:21.029 --> 00:32:23.269
bit. You know, sometimes you spend some time

00:32:23.269 --> 00:32:25.049
with somebody and it jars slightly. You can't

00:32:25.049 --> 00:32:27.150
quite put your finger on it. They're probably

00:32:27.150 --> 00:32:30.990
flexing way, way above their flex points. But

00:32:30.990 --> 00:32:34.150
it's also helped me to find my purpose. And that,

00:32:34.250 --> 00:32:37.289
I've probably worked on my purpose throughout

00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:40.710
my career. You go to a course, you go away, and

00:32:40.710 --> 00:32:43.630
it's always very fluffy. And rather embarrassingly

00:32:43.630 --> 00:32:45.170
earlier, I said words are my words. And it took

00:32:45.170 --> 00:32:49.069
me a long time to get to, the words of my purpose,

00:32:49.289 --> 00:32:53.029
who I am. And what is that then? So my purpose

00:32:53.029 --> 00:32:57.869
is that I create safe spaces so people can be

00:32:57.869 --> 00:33:01.130
bravely curious and curiously brave because that's

00:33:01.130 --> 00:33:04.089
where their magic happens. Lovely. I felt like

00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:07.609
that needed just a moment. So what's striking

00:33:07.609 --> 00:33:10.450
me about this, Rom, is that as well as asking

00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:12.789
for that... kind of feedback for yourself and

00:33:12.789 --> 00:33:14.630
learning about yourself as you've gone and being

00:33:14.630 --> 00:33:16.650
brave and courageous yourself, which all gives

00:33:16.650 --> 00:33:19.309
us that ability to understand what other people

00:33:19.309 --> 00:33:22.150
might be going through. I'm imagining this must

00:33:22.150 --> 00:33:26.130
take a lot of empathy and attention as a leader.

00:33:26.619 --> 00:33:30.019
If you are working out who might not feel psychologically

00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:32.759
safe or who might need that little bit of extra

00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:35.299
feedback to identify their superpower or who

00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:37.619
might need a little bit of a push out of their

00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:40.599
comfort zone to be brave and improve. So you're

00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:43.700
having to pay attention, presumably a lot, to

00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:45.799
your people. I think everybody who works with

00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:49.019
somebody should. And I think not just as a leader.

00:33:49.819 --> 00:33:53.339
We spend in the corporate world a lot of time

00:33:53.339 --> 00:33:57.099
looking up and down. You know, am I doing enough

00:33:57.099 --> 00:34:01.099
to, on my leadership journey, to get to where

00:34:01.099 --> 00:34:03.579
I aspire to be? And, you know, who am I looking

00:34:03.579 --> 00:34:06.740
up that might be where I see myself in the future?

00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.820
But actually, some of the biggest things that

00:34:09.820 --> 00:34:12.059
we should be doing is looking to our left and

00:34:12.059 --> 00:34:15.840
our right. Are our peers okay? Can we check in

00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.539
on them? Are our teams okay? You know, my job

00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:22.480
is to make sure my team are okay. And you're

00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:29.800
right. pay attention and I strive to be an accessible

00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:34.219
and open person that people can build relationships

00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:38.659
with me. Point to note, all of my relationships

00:34:38.659 --> 00:34:41.219
with my team will differ from person to person.

00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:44.239
And again, that was probably a learning in my

00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:47.219
career that, you know, one size doesn't fit all

00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:51.480
because we are all human beings. Yes, it's fairness.

00:34:52.429 --> 00:34:54.670
Not equality, isn't it? And I think once you

00:34:54.670 --> 00:34:56.869
get your head around the fact that I'm not going

00:34:56.869 --> 00:34:58.949
to treat everybody the same, which would be equality.

00:34:59.150 --> 00:35:01.829
So I am a leader who will spend every Monday

00:35:01.829 --> 00:35:03.730
morning talking to you about what you've got

00:35:03.730 --> 00:35:05.510
coming up and helping you think about how you're

00:35:05.510 --> 00:35:07.349
going to do it. And you're all going to get that

00:35:07.349 --> 00:35:10.400
as a team of 10. But then understanding that

00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:12.420
actually, no, you're very experienced or you're

00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:14.619
very independent minded or you're very comfortable

00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:16.679
in this space. And you don't want your manager

00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:18.880
hanging around, chatting to you every Monday

00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.239
morning about what you just go away and I'll

00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:23.699
call you if I need you. Whereas someone else

00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:25.099
might be like, oh, my goodness. Yeah, this is

00:35:25.099 --> 00:35:26.800
really helping. Please sit with me. Please help

00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:30.840
me think it through. That's fair. Yes, I think

00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.460
it's and it's a deeper level. Nice is the personality.

00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.099
You know, some people I just want to talk about

00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:38.380
everything and share something like, yeah, but.

00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:40.460
But you're here to work today. So let's just

00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:42.760
talk about this. And, you know, showing up and

00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:46.280
we talk a lot about authenticity and over flexing,

00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:49.699
but flexing is a really powerful tool. Authenticity

00:35:49.699 --> 00:35:52.559
doesn't mean you show up and go, this is me.

00:35:52.659 --> 00:35:56.519
This is how I'm going to be. We do a lot of work

00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.940
on ourselves. And again, I've had the privilege

00:35:58.940 --> 00:36:01.460
in my career to do a lot of personality assessments

00:36:01.460 --> 00:36:04.340
and a lot of personality. And I love. Anything

00:36:04.340 --> 00:36:06.500
that can help me understand myself a bit better.

00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.480
But what I always say is they all come with a

00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:13.159
big red alert button. Because what you can't

00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:16.199
do is say for anybody that's done Coloured Insights,

00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:20.019
I'm red blue. So treat me like I'm red blue and

00:36:20.019 --> 00:36:23.679
nothing. We have to go. But we work in a team

00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:25.780
that's got lots of yellow people. So how do we

00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:27.760
bring those in? Or lots of green. If you've done

00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.780
Myers -Briggs, but particularly in the corporate

00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:35.010
world. introversion and extroversion we work

00:36:35.010 --> 00:36:38.250
in industries where you see extroversion and

00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:40.190
they're built around extroversion what does that

00:36:40.190 --> 00:36:43.269
mean means we've got some really powerful highly

00:36:43.269 --> 00:36:47.489
functioning introverts so again how do we flex

00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:50.989
your style but the bit around that the the fairness

00:36:50.989 --> 00:36:53.829
or the or the equity but i think it's it's more

00:36:54.670 --> 00:36:57.570
how you're working with people for me is situational

00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:01.010
leadership. So your example of on Monday morning,

00:37:01.110 --> 00:37:03.150
I'm going to brief everybody in exactly the same

00:37:03.150 --> 00:37:05.489
way and talk through it in this way. It doesn't

00:37:05.489 --> 00:37:08.289
work for everybody, but it also doesn't work

00:37:08.289 --> 00:37:11.230
for the same person all of the time. Yes. So

00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:13.469
when you're doing stuff that you're absolutely

00:37:13.469 --> 00:37:15.710
brilliant at, that you do really well, you don't

00:37:15.710 --> 00:37:19.150
want somebody going, just talk me through exactly

00:37:19.150 --> 00:37:20.949
what you're doing back to that micromanagement

00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:23.489
bit. But at the same time, when someone goes,

00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.440
it's normally positioned as I've got a great

00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:28.460
opportunity for you you know that moment of oh

00:37:28.460 --> 00:37:31.699
no I've never done this before this is a big

00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:35.199
big hill that I'm going to have to climb that's

00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.539
when you do want the support of people around

00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:40.559
you and your manager you know just just help

00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:43.659
me get comfortable with it and I think when people

00:37:43.659 --> 00:37:45.780
understand that situational leadership never

00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:48.780
goes away it's not the individual it's what's

00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:51.039
happening to them at that time that dictates

00:37:51.550 --> 00:37:53.469
how you need to show up as a leader in that position.

00:37:53.590 --> 00:37:56.210
Yes, and it's understanding that people's behaviour

00:37:56.210 --> 00:37:58.929
is as much about where they are as who they are

00:37:58.929 --> 00:38:01.170
or when they are as who they are. Absolutely.

00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:02.949
And so at some points they'll feel very confident

00:38:02.949 --> 00:38:04.590
and at other points they might feel very vulnerable,

00:38:04.650 --> 00:38:07.650
same personality. And I think that's probably

00:38:07.650 --> 00:38:10.829
one of the things that I sort of wish I'd stumbled

00:38:10.829 --> 00:38:13.110
across situational leadership earlier on in my

00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:16.929
career, but that understanding of sometimes an

00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:19.389
individual in my team needs me on the pitch with

00:38:19.389 --> 00:38:22.110
them. Yeah, sometimes they're happy to have me

00:38:22.110 --> 00:38:24.730
at the sidelines and sometimes I can sit up in

00:38:24.730 --> 00:38:28.050
the bleachers and just cheer away. That bit of,

00:38:28.190 --> 00:38:30.230
again, going back to that accidental management

00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:33.269
and normally our initial management style is

00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:35.969
built on, I've had a manager that's done all

00:38:35.969 --> 00:38:37.710
this amazing stuff and I want to do the same.

00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:41.030
And a combination of, and these bits really didn't

00:38:41.030 --> 00:38:44.579
work. I absolutely don't want to do that. So

00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:47.519
that is how we start learning to lead. But the

00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.800
more we can do around just understanding things

00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.960
like situational leadership, the things that

00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:55.719
make us all individual and how we respond to

00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:57.239
that. And personality differences. As you say,

00:38:57.300 --> 00:38:58.920
I think from a leader's point of view, one of

00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.780
the most powerful things about a personality

00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:02.760
profile is not what it tells you about yourself,

00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:04.800
because these are self -reported tools. So it's

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.960
basically holding up a mirror. So you might get

00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:08.800
a bit of refinement around the edge, but you

00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:12.389
should recognize yourself. in that profile. I

00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:14.289
think what's really powerful about it is realizing

00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:17.010
how different someone else can be that, you know,

00:39:17.010 --> 00:39:20.429
for every extrovert out and out, you know, chatty,

00:39:20.429 --> 00:39:23.050
gets their energy from other people, loves talking

00:39:23.050 --> 00:39:25.909
things through, externalizes everything, is quite

00:39:25.909 --> 00:39:29.630
excitable. There's a quiet, reflective individual

00:39:29.630 --> 00:39:32.690
who might look shy, but actually just doesn't

00:39:32.690 --> 00:39:34.710
want you there because they're deep within their

00:39:34.710 --> 00:39:37.130
own thoughts and very content. Thank you very

00:39:37.130 --> 00:39:40.960
much. But possibly having. the best ideas in

00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:43.940
the room, but nobody's inviting them to speak.

00:39:44.179 --> 00:39:46.780
I think this is where understanding that, going

00:39:46.780 --> 00:39:48.780
back to that diversity and understanding people,

00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:51.159
paying attention to people. But I think what

00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:54.300
I'm hearing from you is on your journey, you've

00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:58.860
learned about yourself and understood not only

00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:01.260
your impact, but your character and your preferences

00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:04.619
and your superpowers. And that has helped you

00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:08.849
to then empathize understand appreciate the people

00:40:08.849 --> 00:40:11.309
who are different and what might make them tick

00:40:11.309 --> 00:40:13.630
and that that's the thing that you're honing

00:40:13.630 --> 00:40:16.309
over your career isn't it yeah the the bit i

00:40:16.309 --> 00:40:19.889
never look at i mean that you know you do a psychological

00:40:19.889 --> 00:40:22.949
assessment you go oh no i can't be that one i

00:40:22.949 --> 00:40:24.710
want to be that shiny one over there you know

00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:26.510
and again you know i'm pretty sure it's human

00:40:26.510 --> 00:40:28.550
nature to read something about yourself and go

00:40:28.550 --> 00:40:31.769
that's that's the boring profile isn't it might

00:40:31.769 --> 00:40:34.840
just be the ones i get but I read them now with

00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:40.860
a lens of how can I flex? So if I am introverted,

00:40:41.019 --> 00:40:43.739
I can't sit in meetings all the time and say,

00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:46.760
I'm not going to talk until somebody asks me

00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:49.840
to talk. So what are my coping techniques that

00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.659
allow me to flex? And actually, I talk introversion,

00:40:52.659 --> 00:40:54.820
extroversion quite a lot, because for two reasons.

00:40:54.860 --> 00:40:57.840
When you say to somebody, extrovert and introvert,

00:40:57.900 --> 00:40:59.780
you described it wonderfully well. You talked

00:40:59.780 --> 00:41:02.090
about where you get your energy from. But most

00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:05.409
people go to a traditional larger than life extrovert,

00:41:05.429 --> 00:41:08.510
shy introvert. That isn't what it is in this

00:41:08.510 --> 00:41:10.670
example. It is exactly where you get your energy

00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:14.590
from. So as a off the scale introvert, believe

00:41:14.590 --> 00:41:16.190
it or not, because people normally go, no, you're

00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:18.710
not like I am. And also this bit of paper says

00:41:18.710 --> 00:41:22.690
I am. I know that I can function in the corporate

00:41:22.690 --> 00:41:25.809
world, which is quite extroverted in occasions,

00:41:26.010 --> 00:41:29.389
some of which I've put myself in where I've set

00:41:29.389 --> 00:41:32.150
up things and gone. This is actually something

00:41:32.150 --> 00:41:33.849
where somebody who gets a lot of energy from

00:41:33.849 --> 00:41:35.989
being an extrovert would probably thrive in.

00:41:36.409 --> 00:41:40.130
I can still function, but I know what my coping

00:41:40.130 --> 00:41:44.010
techniques need to be. So if I am doing big presentation,

00:41:44.250 --> 00:41:46.889
a big networking event, I know that I'm going

00:41:46.889 --> 00:41:48.949
to be exhausted after it. And I just want to

00:41:48.949 --> 00:41:50.909
sit with myself and my thoughts for a little

00:41:50.909 --> 00:41:53.869
bit to recharge. So if that's what works for

00:41:53.869 --> 00:41:58.170
me, my EQ has helped me understand that other

00:41:58.170 --> 00:42:00.210
people will have coping techniques for whatever.

00:42:01.500 --> 00:42:03.880
their psychological assessments tell about them

00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:06.340
or however they are and however they show up

00:42:06.340 --> 00:42:08.619
what drains their energy so we all have those

00:42:08.619 --> 00:42:10.619
activities that lift our energy and those things

00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:12.809
that drain it don't we? And so understanding

00:42:12.809 --> 00:42:15.369
those kinds of things. Yeah. But it's like, I

00:42:15.369 --> 00:42:17.269
think we talked about last time, Susan Cain's

00:42:17.269 --> 00:42:20.269
book, Quiet, which is in general, I mean, I'm

00:42:20.269 --> 00:42:23.250
really paraphrasing hugely here, but to me, what

00:42:23.250 --> 00:42:26.369
it says is extroverts run the world and introverts

00:42:26.369 --> 00:42:28.909
should. It's just like the introverts are paying

00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:31.750
so much more attention and thinking so much more

00:42:31.750 --> 00:42:35.010
deeply. But I think what's really strong about

00:42:35.010 --> 00:42:36.989
what you're saying there is if you are a leader

00:42:36.989 --> 00:42:39.730
and you have people in your team who are more

00:42:39.730 --> 00:42:42.639
introverted, more refined, more quiet, more considered,

00:42:42.739 --> 00:42:45.219
then you have a responsibility to bring them

00:42:45.219 --> 00:42:48.199
in and draw them out or give them the time to

00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:51.059
just decompress after they've had to do something

00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:54.119
that's extrovert in behavior. However, you're

00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:58.519
also talking about you individually as an introvert

00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:03.460
have a responsibility. to still step into that

00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:06.539
extroverted activity and be present, particularly

00:43:06.539 --> 00:43:09.579
as a leader. Yeah. Push yourself out of your

00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:12.360
comfort zone in order to have the impact you

00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:14.219
want, get the things done, serve your purpose.

00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:16.980
But I think there's, I've learned how to push

00:43:16.980 --> 00:43:19.420
myself, I suppose out of my comfort zone, yes,

00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:20.980
but to do it in a way that's still authentic

00:43:20.980 --> 00:43:26.019
to me. So I think with leadership, we sometimes

00:43:26.019 --> 00:43:28.320
don't understand the power of the responsibility

00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:32.559
it brings. So let's be, really, really open about

00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:35.260
this. Much like school teachers, I think, you

00:43:35.260 --> 00:43:38.960
can always remember a brilliant boss. You can

00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.059
always remember somebody who wasn't brilliant.

00:43:41.739 --> 00:43:45.920
And I think as leaders, we need to remember the

00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.619
shadow we cast, the impact you can have on an

00:43:49.619 --> 00:43:53.880
individual wider than work. A time when you sit

00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:56.239
at home in the evening worrying about something

00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:59.590
and what somebody might say. can be as a result

00:43:59.590 --> 00:44:01.849
of somebody that isn't leading you in the right

00:44:01.849 --> 00:44:06.090
way versus the comfort of this bit of work's

00:44:06.090 --> 00:44:07.690
just come in and I'm not too sure how to do it.

00:44:07.730 --> 00:44:10.670
But do you know what? I've got somebody who will

00:44:10.670 --> 00:44:13.389
really support me. So you have to understand

00:44:13.389 --> 00:44:17.670
being a leader is a real privilege. People are

00:44:17.670 --> 00:44:20.849
putting trust in you and people are putting their

00:44:20.849 --> 00:44:25.230
feelings in you. And I think we shouldn't lose

00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:28.960
sight of that. I think there is also, probably

00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:33.460
an element of vulnerability. And I think just

00:44:33.460 --> 00:44:36.059
showing up in that example of introversion versus

00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:40.019
extroversion, I probably did spend my career

00:44:40.019 --> 00:44:42.559
showing up as an extrovert. This is how everybody

00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.780
else is acting. So back to equity, belonging,

00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:49.619
I need to act the same, particularly as a woman

00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:52.559
in the corporate world, where I probably flexed

00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.150
even more in away from some of my warm leadership

00:44:57.150 --> 00:44:59.510
skills into other leadership skills that other

00:44:59.510 --> 00:45:02.730
people were displaying and almost being rewarded

00:45:02.730 --> 00:45:05.269
for with promotions and acceleration and things

00:45:05.269 --> 00:45:08.650
like that. So I've got to a place in my career

00:45:08.650 --> 00:45:11.829
where I am now comfortable. When people used

00:45:11.829 --> 00:45:14.570
to go... you're not an introvert, you're an extrovert.

00:45:14.630 --> 00:45:17.170
I was like, yes, I fooled you. I almost wore

00:45:17.170 --> 00:45:19.250
it as a badge of pride that you didn't know.

00:45:19.690 --> 00:45:22.809
And I've done a lot to try to be very open about,

00:45:23.010 --> 00:45:26.170
you know what, I am an introvert and I have coping

00:45:26.170 --> 00:45:28.210
techniques. What are the coping techniques that

00:45:28.210 --> 00:45:31.130
I can share? You said, how do you bring people

00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:33.610
in? How do you bring people in in a way that's

00:45:33.610 --> 00:45:36.469
right for them, which isn't always about in the

00:45:36.469 --> 00:45:40.210
moment? How do we create space for the reflectors?

00:45:40.699 --> 00:45:46.659
How do we warm up a room? I am always talking

00:45:46.659 --> 00:45:48.340
to the team about there are people who will naturally

00:45:48.340 --> 00:45:51.900
warm up a room and it's just, again, probably

00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:53.900
their superpower and they don't realise that

00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:56.699
they're doing it versus some people who go, well,

00:45:56.780 --> 00:45:57.920
there's going to be three or four people and

00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:58.860
I'm going to have to make that uncomfortable

00:45:58.860 --> 00:46:01.380
small talk for a bit and tell the same joke that

00:46:01.380 --> 00:46:04.179
I've told for the last three meetings. How do

00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:06.940
we bring people in in a way that's comfortable?

00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:09.679
And as I said before, how do we meet people where

00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:12.380
they are? Yes. You're making me think of, I remember

00:46:12.380 --> 00:46:14.480
years ago working with a fellow psychologist

00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.800
and we'd do these training events, full day training

00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:21.639
events, and we'd just do an introductory kind

00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:23.719
of coffee in the morning and then we'd start.

00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:26.159
And she would not only know everybody's name,

00:46:26.260 --> 00:46:28.300
but she'd know how many children they had, where

00:46:28.300 --> 00:46:29.800
they lived, where they'd been on holiday and

00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:32.219
what their hobbies were. And I used to just look

00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:35.719
at her like she was an alien. But that was her

00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:38.579
superpower. She was so incredibly warm and she

00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:40.900
would walk around the room genuinely fascinated

00:46:40.900 --> 00:46:44.559
by these people. And then that would just breed

00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.860
this lovely atmosphere, lovely warm atmosphere.

00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:50.559
So like you say, some people have just got that,

00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:52.579
haven't they? And it's great that you talk about

00:46:52.579 --> 00:46:54.460
that positively because sometimes some people

00:46:54.460 --> 00:46:56.980
will go. I look at that and go, I should be able

00:46:56.980 --> 00:46:59.480
to do that. I remember relatively early in my

00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.960
career, I was in probably managerial positions

00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:05.239
and I was working with a woman who was doing

00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:09.579
the same role as me and brilliant, great leader,

00:47:09.739 --> 00:47:14.260
great manager. And her superpower was her ability

00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:18.280
to retain data like I'd never seen before. And

00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:22.099
somebody could ask a data stat and she'd be able

00:47:22.099 --> 00:47:25.679
to go, well, Three weeks ago, we saw this rate

00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:27.980
of sale or we sold this or whatever. She could

00:47:27.980 --> 00:47:32.880
just recall this data. And I used to really get

00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:36.480
in my head about it. I used to kind of go, how

00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:39.840
do I get this retained in my brain? And it's

00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:43.219
not my superpower. So I can remember a lot of

00:47:43.219 --> 00:47:45.579
statistics and a lot of storytelling statistics.

00:47:45.820 --> 00:47:49.219
But three weeks ago in this store on a product,

00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:51.119
what did we sell? I'm probably going to have

00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.610
to go and look somewhere for it. But the more

00:47:53.610 --> 00:47:56.329
I reflected on it, the more I tried to do it,

00:47:56.329 --> 00:47:58.070
the more I couldn't do it, the more effort it

00:47:58.070 --> 00:48:00.070
took, the more energy it took, the more frustrated

00:48:00.070 --> 00:48:02.889
I got when I couldn't remember it. And I remember

00:48:02.889 --> 00:48:05.829
being very vulnerable with my manager at the

00:48:05.829 --> 00:48:09.429
time and going, I wish I was more like this person.

00:48:09.630 --> 00:48:11.989
And they said, if I asked you that question,

00:48:12.130 --> 00:48:14.230
would you know where to go to get the answer?

00:48:14.409 --> 00:48:17.210
I went, yeah. They went, well, then why are you

00:48:17.210 --> 00:48:19.880
trying to hold it in your head? And that is something

00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:22.880
that has stuck with me. As long as I know where

00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.940
to go to get the answer, I don't need to carry

00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.000
it in my head. Now, again, that's a vulnerability

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:31.699
because sometimes you'll get the question. And

00:48:31.699 --> 00:48:34.380
again, whether it's your imposter syndrome or

00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:36.980
whether it's the leadership or whatever it is,

00:48:37.059 --> 00:48:40.619
when a big boss asks you the question, it's really

00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:43.840
brave to go, I don't know, but I'll come back

00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:46.929
to you. Because you start going, well, What's

00:48:46.929 --> 00:48:49.030
the repercussions? And do you operate in a safe

00:48:49.030 --> 00:48:51.030
environment where you can do that? And I'm lucky

00:48:51.030 --> 00:48:54.650
that I do because I bring a whole load of other

00:48:54.650 --> 00:48:58.030
things into the conversation that might not be

00:48:58.030 --> 00:48:59.989
that specific data point. But if that's what

00:48:59.989 --> 00:49:02.889
you want to know, I'll get you the answer. But

00:49:02.889 --> 00:49:04.909
actually, your question behind the question might

00:49:04.909 --> 00:49:06.849
mean that I can tell you this, this, this, this

00:49:06.849 --> 00:49:10.030
and this. Thought diversity. The question you're

00:49:10.030 --> 00:49:12.679
asking me right now. might not be the conversation

00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:14.360
that we're actually going to have, which might

00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:16.480
get us to a broader answer or a different answer.

00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.550
Yeah, and that's that whole... You know, you're

00:49:20.550 --> 00:49:23.090
talking about one of the elements of imposter

00:49:23.090 --> 00:49:25.929
syndrome is comparing ourselves to other people

00:49:25.929 --> 00:49:28.610
too much and in particular, comparing ourselves

00:49:28.610 --> 00:49:31.190
to all the good things other people can do. Yes.

00:49:31.250 --> 00:49:34.010
You're saying that you've got the stato of your

00:49:34.010 --> 00:49:36.570
world who can just list off statistics like that,

00:49:36.610 --> 00:49:38.190
which is amazing. And then we go, well, I want

00:49:38.190 --> 00:49:40.230
to do that. And there's nothing wrong with wanting

00:49:40.230 --> 00:49:42.190
to get better at something, is there? However,

00:49:42.429 --> 00:49:45.809
there is also power in saying, well, that's your

00:49:45.809 --> 00:49:48.150
superpower. That's something that you're good

00:49:48.150 --> 00:49:50.840
at. And probably because. that lifts that woman's

00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:54.360
energy and is something that she's always enjoyed

00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:58.719
doing and probably serves her purpose. And your

00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:02.179
energy comes from somewhere else. And your purpose

00:50:02.179 --> 00:50:05.420
is more about creating these environments that

00:50:05.420 --> 00:50:09.400
make people feel brave and courageous. And so

00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:11.760
you don't need stats for that. What you need

00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.679
is to pay attention to the people, be kind, build

00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:16.699
a feeling of belonging, understand yourself.

00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:19.780
understand other people's emotions all the things

00:50:19.780 --> 00:50:21.159
you've been talking about all the way through

00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:24.780
that's the stuff that fires you up isn't it that's

00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:27.239
the stuff that feeds your soul that's why you're

00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:29.760
good at that and then we come back well that's

00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:32.400
the magic of diversity because if you speak to

00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.599
the person who i'm going wow you can hold all

00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:36.900
this information Nine times out of 10, they're

00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:39.539
looking at you going, I wish I could tell that

00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:41.659
story. I've got all these data stats. I wish

00:50:41.659 --> 00:50:44.559
I could put them into a story. Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:44.860 --> 00:50:47.760
So it's that growth mindset idea that we all

00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:50.599
are capable of improvement and we absolutely

00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:53.500
are. However, it doesn't mean we have to improve

00:50:53.500 --> 00:50:55.440
on everything. I think that's the bit sometimes

00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.480
people miss because it's all about interest and

00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.139
passion, isn't it? It's going to take you a long

00:51:01.139 --> 00:51:04.579
time to rewire your brain. So you have to really

00:51:04.579 --> 00:51:09.190
want, to rewire your brain. It has to mean something

00:51:09.190 --> 00:51:11.650
to you, doesn't it? You have to care. You have

00:51:11.650 --> 00:51:13.969
to care about it. So as a kind of final things,

00:51:14.070 --> 00:51:16.230
I don't want to finish without talking about

00:51:16.230 --> 00:51:18.650
the raising the glass. Does that fit with this

00:51:18.650 --> 00:51:22.050
kind of identifying your own purpose? Is that

00:51:22.050 --> 00:51:25.519
an initiative that helps you form that? or has

00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:27.940
it come out of that clarity? Is it linked? It

00:51:27.940 --> 00:51:33.280
is linked and also very muddled. Lovely. So for

00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:35.340
anybody who doesn't know, Raising the Glass is

00:51:35.340 --> 00:51:38.239
a not -for -profit organisation that exists to

00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:40.699
create meaningful connections for women and allies

00:51:40.699 --> 00:51:44.019
in the drinks industry. And it is fundamentally

00:51:44.019 --> 00:51:46.760
based on some of my experiences as I came into

00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:49.460
the drinks industry. So I, in my career, have

00:51:49.460 --> 00:51:51.280
worked in different organizations and different

00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:54.099
categories, different product groups, confectionery,

00:51:54.099 --> 00:51:58.960
pet food, dairy, protein, you know, some very

00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:01.139
similar ones and some very different ones. But

00:52:01.139 --> 00:52:03.980
my experience of moving into the drinks industry

00:52:03.980 --> 00:52:06.800
was a little bit of imposter syndrome, which

00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:10.599
we've spoken about. Huge excitement. Who doesn't

00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:12.960
want to be involved in this category? And some

00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:17.860
moments of, ooh, it's 2024. Did I just catch

00:52:17.860 --> 00:52:21.260
that comment right? Did I just... Is that data

00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:23.500
stack right? Are over 70 % of women thinking

00:52:23.500 --> 00:52:26.079
about leaving the drinks industry because they're

00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.139
worried about safety, linking perhaps to sexual

00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:31.340
harassment, for example, if you are working in

00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:34.659
potentially the hospitality industry? It is not

00:52:34.659 --> 00:52:38.679
a safe industry for everybody. And so Raising

00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:41.989
the Glass was set up on the belief that... everybody

00:52:41.989 --> 00:52:47.590
should feel seen valued heard and the opportunities

00:52:47.590 --> 00:52:50.449
are abundant for everyone in their career and

00:52:50.449 --> 00:52:52.530
that everybody should feel safe and so how is

00:52:52.530 --> 00:52:56.469
raising the glass doing that what are you creating

00:52:56.469 --> 00:52:59.710
we're creating a community uh -huh um and i think

00:52:59.710 --> 00:53:02.449
if you'd asked me Before it was up and running,

00:53:02.550 --> 00:53:04.010
how is it going to do it? What is it going to

00:53:04.010 --> 00:53:05.250
do? The answer would have been very different.

00:53:05.289 --> 00:53:06.550
It would have been quite functional. It would

00:53:06.550 --> 00:53:08.590
have been, we've got networking events, we've

00:53:08.590 --> 00:53:11.469
got a podcast, we've got mentoring. All of those

00:53:11.469 --> 00:53:14.150
are really important. We get people in the room

00:53:14.150 --> 00:53:16.909
with the networking and we create opportunities

00:53:16.909 --> 00:53:19.730
for people to connect. The podcast for those

00:53:19.730 --> 00:53:21.349
introverted people who don't want to sit in a

00:53:21.349 --> 00:53:23.449
room allows you to listen to some great connections.

00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:27.059
I am super, super proud of the mentoring program.

00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:30.739
So we set that up recently and that is creating

00:53:30.739 --> 00:53:33.119
mentoring opportunities and mentee opportunities

00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:36.019
within the drinks industry. Because again, psychological

00:53:36.019 --> 00:53:38.840
safety, you might want to talk about experiences

00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:41.059
and you might want to talk about it with somebody

00:53:41.059 --> 00:53:43.619
who isn't in your organization or you might want

00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:47.300
to broaden your network. But now that the community

00:53:47.300 --> 00:53:51.780
is helping grow and evolve. what raising the

00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:54.639
glass is. So the vision will never change. It

00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:57.460
is about creating those connections in a meaningful

00:53:57.460 --> 00:54:01.840
way. How we do it might shift. How we communicate

00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:05.340
might shift. But the biggest bit for me, going

00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:07.699
back to the question of was it, I suppose, coming

00:54:07.699 --> 00:54:12.579
out of learnings and things is I have got more

00:54:12.579 --> 00:54:15.480
comfortable with myself as I've got older. Yes.

00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:19.639
And that comes over. And we talk a lot about

00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:22.019
you kind of get to an age and you do just and

00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:25.719
we're struggling to crystallize what it is. But

00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:29.699
there's a little bit of the Greg Wallace example

00:54:29.699 --> 00:54:31.840
where he said it was certain women of a certain

00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:35.699
age criticizing his behavior. Well, of course

00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:40.579
it was, because in my 40s, I'm probably in a

00:54:40.579 --> 00:54:43.599
more comfortable position with my friendship

00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:48.230
groups. with my family, financially, from a work

00:54:48.230 --> 00:54:50.989
point of view, that I probably will put my head

00:54:50.989 --> 00:54:53.909
above the parapet. And I'm just a little bit

00:54:53.909 --> 00:54:56.110
more comfortable in myself. What's the worst

00:54:56.110 --> 00:54:58.969
that can happen is more dealable with for me

00:54:58.969 --> 00:55:02.190
now. Stuff that I experienced in my 20s, even

00:55:02.190 --> 00:55:05.909
in my 30s, if I experienced it now, I would deal

00:55:05.909 --> 00:55:09.030
with it very differently because I back myself

00:55:09.030 --> 00:55:11.309
a little bit more. My support network is fantastic

00:55:11.309 --> 00:55:14.860
and backs me a little bit more. So that's given

00:55:14.860 --> 00:55:17.440
me the confidence. And as I say, Raising the

00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:20.940
Glass was set up off a few of my personal experiences

00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.119
within the span of about six weeks working in

00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:25.260
the drinks industry. And a little bit of checking

00:55:25.260 --> 00:55:27.079
in with the cheerleaders. What do you think?

00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:28.920
This is what I'm feeling. And then people who

00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:31.260
had either worked in the industry for ages or

00:55:31.260 --> 00:55:33.539
people who were my, the people I just looked

00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:35.239
at went, you're absolutely brilliant. We're going,

00:55:35.300 --> 00:55:37.840
this is a brilliant idea. Then you go, right,

00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:41.699
there's something in it. You set up an initiative

00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:43.420
like that. You turn up to the first networking

00:55:43.420 --> 00:55:45.840
event. You cross your fingers and hope that there's

00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.460
more than three people in the audience. And there

00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:49.699
were. And there have been ever since. And we

00:55:49.699 --> 00:55:52.920
have sold out events and we have great podcasting

00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:56.960
streams. And then it comes full circle because

00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:59.380
now I've got a voice. Madeleine Albright was

00:55:59.380 --> 00:56:01.780
right. Now I've found my voice. I'm not going

00:56:01.780 --> 00:56:04.360
to silence it, not just because it's my voice,

00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:08.099
but because I do feel a responsibility, which

00:56:08.099 --> 00:56:11.380
I'm so grateful for. To be the voice of people

00:56:11.380 --> 00:56:14.099
who haven't found their voice yet. Yeah. And

00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:17.719
that's not just a raising the glass, women in

00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:20.260
drinks, women in leadership. That's a woman with

00:56:20.260 --> 00:56:23.639
a non -visible disability. That's neurodiversity.

00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:27.739
I have the privilege of being a voice for my

00:56:27.739 --> 00:56:30.579
children whilst they grow into their voices.

00:56:31.019 --> 00:56:34.480
And actually, my daughter had some things going

00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:36.420
on at school and was called into a meeting. And

00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:38.079
she said, will you come to the meeting? I said,

00:56:38.099 --> 00:56:40.639
of course I will. It was relating to some education

00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:43.420
stuff with her exams. I heard her talking to

00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:45.920
her sister saying, well, I'm quite excited about

00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:48.440
the meeting, but my mum will be in the room as

00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:50.320
well and she'll help if I don't know what to

00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:53.579
say or can't find my voice. And I thought, your

00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:55.739
EQ is going to be pretty strong when you grow

00:56:55.739 --> 00:56:57.739
up into a 40 -year -old woman because it's pretty

00:56:57.739 --> 00:57:02.940
awesome now. So I think my leadership journey

00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:07.820
has absolutely crystallised itself with... being

00:57:07.820 --> 00:57:11.159
comfortable to use my voice to help the voices

00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:14.980
of others. And why wouldn't it be when my superpower

00:57:14.980 --> 00:57:19.139
is storytelling? Yes. And it seems like you said

00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:24.559
you have learned about yourself over the years

00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:28.480
and that's been your journey. However, what I'm

00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:31.099
hearing is something similar but subtly different.

00:57:31.139 --> 00:57:33.619
I think you've learned to believe in yourself.

00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.309
Yes. And that's what the difference is. So now

00:57:37.309 --> 00:57:40.929
you believe that you have the right to use your

00:57:40.929 --> 00:57:43.010
voice. You believe you have something worthy

00:57:43.010 --> 00:57:47.250
and valuable to say. You believe in you and the

00:57:47.250 --> 00:57:51.110
things that you stand for. It's really easy to

00:57:51.110 --> 00:57:53.030
say, just believe in yourself. And if anybody

00:57:53.030 --> 00:57:54.449
listening thinks they're going to get a brilliant

00:57:54.449 --> 00:57:56.630
nugget of information, my nugget of information

00:57:56.630 --> 00:57:58.050
is not believe in yourself because that's really

00:57:58.050 --> 00:58:01.409
hard to do. Surround yourself by people who believe

00:58:01.409 --> 00:58:04.219
in you. And then you start to believe in yourself.

00:58:04.579 --> 00:58:07.000
And those people who truly believe in you, your

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:08.440
cheerleaders, those people who have got your

00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:09.920
back, they're not going to tell you you're right

00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:11.679
all the time. They're not going to tell you you're

00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:12.860
the best all the time. You don't want that though,

00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:17.179
do you? They are not helping your journey. You

00:58:17.179 --> 00:58:19.840
want the people who are going to go. Just sense

00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:22.420
check that. Sense check that. What would you

00:58:22.420 --> 00:58:24.840
tell, just to kind of summarise that, if you

00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:27.099
could go back and whisper in your younger ear

00:58:27.099 --> 00:58:29.760
when you were kind of in your teens, early 20s

00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:32.940
and kind of starting out in your career, what

00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:35.320
would you whisper in your own ear to help the

00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:40.380
journey? What I would whisper in my own ear would

00:58:40.380 --> 00:58:45.599
be, just hold on, the world's going to change.

00:58:46.460 --> 00:58:49.409
What I would... whisper in the ear of somebody

00:58:49.409 --> 00:58:55.469
today, you know, teens looking into careers,

00:58:55.650 --> 00:58:58.710
it is actually probably that the world will change

00:58:58.710 --> 00:59:03.070
and you will change. Don't rush for perfection

00:59:03.070 --> 00:59:06.510
because that growth mindset, you'll probably

00:59:06.510 --> 00:59:09.070
never achieve it. If you do, tell me how you

00:59:09.070 --> 00:59:12.230
got there. As I say, don't let great get in the

00:59:12.230 --> 00:59:15.539
way of good and good is good enough. But the

00:59:15.539 --> 00:59:18.000
best bit of advice I would give to my younger

00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:21.780
self is to be kind. Be kind to those around you.

00:59:21.940 --> 00:59:26.480
Be kind to everybody. And please never forget

00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:30.179
to be kind to yourself. Absolutely. Probably

00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:33.039
the most important one, isn't it? And the one

00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:36.079
that often... It's lower down the list. It is.

00:59:36.300 --> 00:59:39.219
That analogy of put your own oxygen on yourself

00:59:39.219 --> 00:59:42.320
so that you can help others. Anybody who has

00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:44.239
heard that has probably gone, well, no, I'm going

00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:46.019
to put on that person, that person, that person,

00:59:46.019 --> 00:59:48.139
that person. And we all would. We would all put

00:59:48.139 --> 00:59:50.159
an oxygen mask on our children, our loved ones,

00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:53.280
our friends, our family. But you still have to

00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:55.679
create space because if there is nothing left

00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:59.820
in your bucket, nothing left, you can't be there

00:59:59.820 --> 01:00:03.039
for others. And I guarantee to anyone listening,

01:00:03.739 --> 01:00:07.500
You are so inspirational and so valued by so

01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:10.420
many people that you have a responsibility to

01:00:10.420 --> 01:00:12.619
keep your bucket full so you can continue to

01:00:12.619 --> 01:00:15.300
support and help them. Yes. So turning up your

01:00:15.300 --> 01:00:18.400
own inner cheerleader and dialing down your own

01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:22.820
inner critic and just realizing that you are

01:00:22.820 --> 01:00:26.099
having a positive impact. You are valuable and

01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:30.579
you do belong. And you are good enough. I love

01:00:30.579 --> 01:00:33.519
it, Ron. Wow. That's been absolutely great. What's

01:00:33.519 --> 01:00:36.719
so lovely, I think, is listening to a leader

01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:40.300
in such a fast moving environment at such a senior

01:00:40.300 --> 01:00:44.139
level, talking about things like kindness and

01:00:44.139 --> 01:00:47.840
belonging and facilitating the empowerment and

01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:50.579
autonomy of others. I think that is incredibly

01:00:50.579 --> 01:00:53.320
inspiring. So thank you so much. I have no doubt

01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:55.920
the listeners to Leadership Journeys will have

01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:58.760
found that really inspiring. So I really appreciate

01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:01.190
it. Thank you for having me. You're like a big

01:01:01.190 --> 01:01:04.130
sister sometimes to me. So this has been very,

01:01:04.170 --> 01:01:08.429
very easy to record. So thank you. Coming up

01:01:08.429 --> 01:01:12.090
next time. I was working for one business and

01:01:12.090 --> 01:01:17.110
the environment was very toxic. I was miserable.

01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:22.980
I thought that I could overcome it and just keep

01:01:22.980 --> 01:01:25.360
going. I did a great job. I was still moving

01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:28.280
my way up in my career. I thought I have to do

01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:30.159
something different. One of the worst points

01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:31.659
when an ambulance had to be called because I

01:01:31.659 --> 01:01:34.760
couldn't breathe at work. It was anxiety. It

01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:38.119
was a panic attack. And so I thought, right,

01:01:38.260 --> 01:01:42.039
this has to change. I really, really want to

01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:44.460
make sure that whatever I do, it's helping other

01:01:44.460 --> 01:01:46.840
people. I could see a lot of other people going

01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:47.599
through the same thing.