Hiya, I'm psychologist and author Leona Deakin,
and this is Lead Her Ship Journeys, where we
delve into the minds of inspirational women to
find out how they do the things that they do.
Last week, we heard from Simone Roche, MBE, the
CEO of We Are Power and founder of the Northern
Power Women's Awards, about how saying yes to
every opportunity that came her way in the Royal
Navy and beyond allowed her to live her dream
of quite literally lifting other people up. This
week... on leadership journeys. I guess I haven't
really spoken much about why I retired because
I felt like my identity was cricket. And so I
was like, well, who am I if I'm not playing cricket
for England? I was basically getting very anxious.
Anyway, I ended up breaking my thumb playing
men's cricket. I had a good eight week block
in the summer with no cricket. I couldn't play.
And I was really happy. What do you do if you
have the best job in the world, but... It just
doesn't make you happy. Hi, folks. Today we have
something a little different, a female sporting
superstar. So I have World Cup winning cricketer
Holly Colvin joining me today. Now, at age 15,
Holly was drafted to the England team for an
ashes test against Australia, which is an absolutely
fascinating story. I'm sure she'll tell us about.
And then she went on to play five tests. 72 one
-day internationals and 50 2020 internationals.
She was a member of the Women's World 2020 World
Cup winning side in 2009. So this is a woman
not to play cricket against, I sense. Since retiring
from cricket in 2013, she has moved into Women's
Cricket Senior Officer for the ICC out in Dubai,
lived out there for a number of years and then
returned to be the Sports Competition Manager
for cricket. the Commonwealth Games here in Birmingham.
Today we are meeting her in London because she's
a major sports event manager for the Greater
London Authority. So I'm sure everyone's aware
we're living in a bit of a golden age for women's
sport. Finally our female cricketers, footballers
and the like are receiving the attention and
accolades they deserve but I'm fascinated to
hear what Holly's journey was like as a female
moving through sport as well as exploring the
mindset needed to excel. in that professional
environment. That feels like a long introduction,
Holly, but you've done so much. Welcome. Thank
you. Thanks for having me. It's lovely, lovely
to meet you. So, I mean, I think we have to start
with your origin story at age 15, because it's
such a cool story. It's like something out of
a movie. So just tell us how you came to be in
the England team playing against Australia. So
the test match was at Hove in Sussex, which is
my home county. During the preparations for the
Test match, the England team were looking for
some net bowlers. And one of the Australian bowlers
was a left -arm spinner. So they were looking
for left -arm spinners so they could have some
practice. So I rock up, you know, a couple of
days before. Bowled quite well, apparently. The
day before the Test match got... handed the phone
by my mum with a very confused face saying oh
you better take this and I was like oh and the
head coach was on the phone saying oh we'd like
you to come down for the next four days um are
you free I was like yeah sure thinking I'll just
be running on the drinks or you know getting
a bit of experience or they want more net bowling
for batters whilst they wait but no they wanted
me to play which was quite quite a surreal experience
and yeah so off I went played in a test match
at my home ground down at Hoven. Yeah, the rest,
I guess, is history. And what was that actually
like at age 15 to just be thrust into that team?
There was a few dynamics. One was I ended up
rooming with the girl that I'd, another spinner
who wasn't playing that I replaced. So there
was that interesting dynamic there. The captain
was currently teaching at my school. So it just
shows you kind of sign of the times. But they
did get quite a bit of media pickups. There were
quite a few journalists around. I remember being
sort of bodyguarded a little bit by our team
manager at the time, Charlotte Dickinson, who
was quite a force of nature. I think actually
it got a bit of media attention for the whole
team because it was quite an interesting story.
I think the biggest thing that was quite striking
looking back was I had... I had actually no idea
who the Australian players were. I couldn't have
named a single player. I knew kind of of that,
you know, they had a really scary opening fast
bowler in Catherine Fitzpatrick and they had
some great batters, but didn't quite understand
like the legendary status of some of these players
who were the best in the world at the time. So
it kind of worked in my favor because... I really
had no idea the magnitude of what it was. I kind
of just said, I'm just going to turn up and bowl.
It will be fine. And obviously, you know, the
more media attention they got. So it was kind
of this surreal bubble that I kind of look back
on and be like, what a wild time. But an incredible
experience nonetheless. And one I kind of really
fondly kind of look back on. Oh, I bet. And it's
that. Like you were saying, you almost had that
teenage bravado and not enough insight to be
scared of them. If you'd have walked in there
10 years later, you'd have probably been terrified
by the reputations. of the women you were playing
against yeah 100 % and I think I think the other
thing was is that I was playing a lot of boys
cricket so I was playing at my school team and
a lot of the guys for 14 15 year olds were a
lot bigger and scarier than some of the women
I was bowling against and they'd absolutely clatter
me for six if ever I bowled a bad ball so I kind
of had the kind of logical brain of that kind
of behind me looking at the game so Playing kind
of high level boys cricket really helps in terms
of the pressure situations as well I was getting
myself into. Yeah, I bet. And just giving you
that outlook that was helpful. So we were just
talking before about how you started in cricket
and you were saying chasing your big brother.
And that was actually a bit of a common story
for other female cricketers that you. played
with that you were chasing your brothers a little
bit? Yeah absolutely I think pretty much if you
went you know along the line of our team pretty
much all of them had an older brother all of
them wanted to do something that their brother
could do and or be better in some senses but
yeah I was sort of very much the garden net bowler
and kind of asked my mum where does he disappear
off to every Sunday morning can I join in and
The first answer was you're not old enough. And
then when I became older, my mum didn't have
a reason to say no. So off I went and just joined
the local boys team and kind of learnt cricket
at the same age that all boys do and didn't really
realise I was any good because I just thought
I was an average cricketer, not necessarily a
female or male cricketer. So, yeah, and then
kind of went through the ranks from there. Because
I was going to ask, how much of your success
at 15 was, do you think, down to some natural
talent that you had versus... the experiences
that you'd had playing against the boys and chasing
your brother. Is it possible to determine that?
Yeah, I think it was kind of a mixture of a couple
of things. Like when I was, I guess, growing
up till the age of, I want to say 11, I was always
an opening batter. I opened the batting for like
my school team when I was like 12, 13 for the
boys team. And then... basically was at an under
15 tournament at the age of 11 for Sussex so
it was a county tournament at Ampleforth which
is a really old school private boarding school
up in Yorkshire it was a festival that happened
every year and I injured my thumb basically I
think and they were doing workshops around different
skills there was like a batting one there was
a fielding one and then there was a spin bowling
one and I was like well I can't really do batting
can't do fielding I'll just give spin bowling
a crack literally turned myself into a spin bowler
for that tournament and did really well and then
became a left arm spinner from there and I think
we were kind of unicorns a little bit especially
in women's cricket a lot of people were very
much right -handed and so I kind of had a bit
of a unique skill that wasn't as I mean there's
so many women's left arm spinners in England
now but it was something that was quite sought
after and yeah kind of luck of the draw I think
from from getting picked yeah and something you
turned your hand to because you saw a bit of
an opportunity there maybe to yeah I'm just kind
of waxing and kind of enjoyed it and I was oh
yeah this is all right so I mean it sounds like
one of those fairy tale stories the kind of thing
I imagine in my head every time I try a new sport
and I think maybe this is the one where someone's
going to just be walking by and go oh my goodness
like you're the best lacrosse player we've ever
seen something like that this has never happened
to me although you won't be surprised to find
out but but actually there's a lot of graft going
on there isn't there because like you say you
were starting to play quite early age probably
about six years old that you were playing maybe
a little bit earlier something like that and
then as a young girl playing in cricket what
was that like did you face any resistance from
the boys or from the clubs to be playing cricket
or was it quite easy do you know what I actually
had an incredible experience playing boys cricket
as in they were they just treated me as one of
the lads and that's all I ever wanted I was just
I was another player it really didn't matter
whether I was a girl or whether you know they
were lads I think They I've never had any resistance
or anything like that from any of them. And they
were very welcoming. The only thing I've had
was and it used to kind of spur me on was if
I did get a wicket. in a boys game you'd hear
the taunts of their own teammates as the batter
getting out being like oh you go out to a girl
and actually I definitely think it worked in
my favor being a girl because actually there
was more pressure on the boys because they didn't
want to get out to me and it was more embarrassing
that way so I really used it to my advantage
there was kind of a bit of a news story when
I guess when I was like 15 14 15 and me and Sarah
Taylor who's a sort of legendary cricketer of
my era robin marler who was i think chair of
the mcc at the time was set was outraged by us
playing boys cricket and said it was dangerous
and we shouldn't be playing and Yeah, we thought
it was quite an outdated view. And we were like,
again, doesn't really matter our gender. If we're
good enough to play, we'll play. And when he
said it was dangerous, who was he trying to protect
there? Did he think the girls were too vulnerable
to be playing? Yeah, I think it was around, you
know, the fast bowlers would have to slow down
for us and stuff like that, which was just ridiculous.
Yeah, that sort of stuff. You didn't want a boy's
injuring us. I was like, well, you know, a boy
can injure a boy. It doesn't matter. So I've
only ever had really positive responses. And
I guess I just let my cricket do the talking
and everyone knew I was good enough to be in
the teams. And yeah, I had a really good time,
I guess. Tell us a bit about that experience.
So you get in the team in the ashes, but then
it doesn't end there, does it? It goes on and
you stay in the team and end up. winning the
World Cup. And I mean, what was that experience
like? Yeah, that was a really mad year, 2009.
So it was kind of, it was the classic year of
I took a gap year between school and uni, went
over to Australia for six months to play some
club cricket out there and absolutely loved it.
We lived in a house where there was four of us
that played for England. We all went over, all
lived together, all played for different clubs
across Sydney. We obviously did really well in
the World Cup, the 50 -over World Cup, and bought
it home. And I distinctly remember getting back,
obviously having been away for six months, and
my mum was like, well, you need a job. So I started
as a cleaner at my local sports club, literally
off the back of winning a World Cup. Well done,
mum. So bring me back on the ground. Exactly.
Yeah, bar job and cleaning. Yeah, that's exactly
what I did. And yeah, we went, obviously, and
that summer had... The T20 World Cup was in England,
which was amazing. That was a very different
experience, I think, compared to the 50 -over
World Cup because it was the first time I felt
real eyes were on us because we'd just won the
World Cup, the 50 -over one. And I'll never,
ever forget the semi -final that we played at
the Oval against Australia. This is a time where
we would get, you know, a couple of thousand
max a game. And it was about half full at the
Oval, which was the biggest crowd we'd ever been
against. And obviously a lot of all of the games
were televised by this point. So you felt like
you had sort of. everyone watching and the atmosphere
was incredible but we chased down a record total
of 160 odd I'm really bad with stats so when
you told me what my stats were earlier I was
like yeah they sound about right um and just
the most ridiculous game of cricket I've ever
played I played absolutely abysmally like the
the pressure definitely got to me I bowled terribly
but didn't matter the team won and we went on
to obviously win the tournament again at a you
know half at that time half pack lords against
New Zealand in 09. So that felt like that year
was quite a real step change, I think, in just
we didn't even have big crowds really at our
games and we got a lot more TV coverage and things
like that. So things were starting to change.
I think our profiles were starting to change
at that point. It's a wonderful thing to have
been involved in, to be there at the epicentre
of that all starting and it gaining more gravitas
and more respect. What did you learn, do you
think, from being in that professional women's
team? Did you gain insights into how to work
together and how to support each other? So other
than the mechanics of playing the cricket, what
else was going on that made that team successful,
do you think? So it was a really interesting
time because you say professional and we weren't.
fully professional okay so we were no no no no
but we were professional in a sense of the way
we conducted ourselves like the training the
dedication but we were all like I was obviously
still a student and half of us were still students
um you know some were doing part -time jobs some
were coaches um And we were just doing it really
for the love. And I think it was a really interesting
time because we were all spread around. I mean,
there was a real contingent in Loughborough,
to be fair. But we were all spread around the
country and trusted to do our own programs. So
we would only meet as an England team maybe once
every couple of months in camps over a weekend.
But the majority of our training would have been
done with our own one -to -one coaches or at
our own universities. and we were and you know
our strength and conditioning program nutrition
was all up to us to do um so it did one it taught
you to kind of trust each other that you were
everyone was putting in the work and no one was
kind of leaving the team behind And you were
trusted to kind of be independent, find your
own solutions, like find your own like gyms.
And I was when, by the time I kind of, this is
kind of fast forwarding a little bit, but towards
the back end, 2012, 2013, I was working full
time for a charity in London, Lord's Tavernas.
And I would be commuting into the Oval at seven
in the morning, having my net, then getting into
work at about half nine, still in my sweaty kit,
doing a full half day. of work then at lunchtime
having my shower and then kind of commuting with
all my cricket kit back back home again but like
that was kind of the reality that it was so I
think it certainly taught me around how to sort
of make sure you fit stuff in how to kind of
put in the hard work to trust trust your team
are doing the same and then kind of made those
moments a lot sweeter I think when you get to
an end of a tour and even do you know what even
if you've lost like you still have a great celebration
you still all come together you still shake the
hand of the opposition and have a really good
time and but it was always at the end of tour
because you'd work so hard you'd sacrifice quite
a lot during those winter months to then mark
it up during the middle of a tour because you
wanted a bit of a night out, it wasn't worth
it. It was like, actually, that's what the end
is for or when there was a decent break. There's
a real discipline and dedication thing going
on there, isn't there? Like you say, you're all
being trusted to be dedicated and to be disciplined
and to do the work. And so in your view, why
has this been the golden era really for women's
sport and the fact that... You know, I'm 50 odd
now. And I remember, you know, back in my youth,
the idea that you might want to play women's
cricket or football or rugby. You know, maybe
when you went to university, there might be a
team there. You could play around with it for
a couple of years. And that was it, really. And
then everything seems to have changed around
the time you were getting involved in it. So
what was changing that? Is it the investment?
Is it public interest? Is it the quality of the
sports, women? I think it's a mixture of everything.
I'd say I feel like the world woke up that 50
% of the population is female, right? So commercially,
you've got a product that you can sell to 50
% of your population. And you all know that participants
of the game make the best fans. If you played
a sport, you are much more likely to be emotionally
attached to that, to attend, to buy merchandise,
to tune in. If you've played that sport, like
that is just a fact, really. So I think there
was kind of this swell of like, well, we need
to be more inclusive and we need to engage with
women in our sport. And therefore it does need
that investment. And it's kind of where do you
invest? You invest in the bottom or do you invest
in the top? And I think. more successful teams
kind of get more publicity and actually in this
country if you think about for the last 10 years
particularly team sport you look at kind of the
traditional men's sports in football in cricket
in rugby union have had pretty good success in
those in those team sports in the last 10 years
and that breeds interest that breeds inspiration
that then gets young girls going, oh, I could
play that, and then brings this groundswell of
interest around building clubs and then making
more facilities accessible to them and stuff
like that. But like you say, the advantage of
it is opening the minds of girls about what they
are capable of and what they can do, and that
actually when they have that time and that discipline
and they do practise these sports... well they're
just able to perform yeah in a parallel way to
the to the men really so I mean you've had this
great success and such a wonderful thing to happen
to you but at such a young age how old were you
when you won the world cup uh 19 so still in
your teens yeah and you've just hit a pinnacle
yeah of something amazing that potentially that
might not happen again what's that like I guess
kind of I was at the time at 19, I was kind of
like, right, OK, well, we've just won a World
Cup. When's the next one? But I just was kind
of classic case. And this is really cliche, but
kind of like taking each day as it comes. The
one thing I did know and the one thing that made
me very different to quite a lot of the players
at the time. cricket wasn't my life. It kind
of was something that I fell into by accident,
quite literally from my story. But I always knew
I wanted to get a degree. I always knew I needed
something else that wasn't cricket. And I stupidly
did a... biology and chemistry degree which has
got the most hours with all the labs required
which made it really challenging when I was off
trying to play cricket but a lot of the girls
that went again different girls went to Loughborough
some of them deferred like or did broke up their
degree into multiple years and ended up going
to uni for about five years whereas I was like
nope I'm going to get my degree in three years
and I ended up missing think it was one tour
um think to New Zealand because I was like no
I need to actually I'm going to stay it's my
third year at university I can't miss five weeks
of a semester of university because it will just
screw me for for my exams and I want to get a
good degree so I had no idea what I wanted to
do but I just knew that I needed something else
that was a fail safe and I also knew I didn't
want to spend 100 % of my time in cricket because
I think I would have gone nuts. Why is that?
Again, I think it just was something that happened
to me and wasn't like my full passion, which
is probably something that is probably strange
to hear considering I played for England. But
good that you know that because you could probably
get intoxicated by the fact that you were playing
at such a high level and think this must be my
purpose. But you actually had a sense that I
want something more. Yeah, and it's actually,
I guess I haven't really spoken much about, at
all really, publicly about why I retired so young
at 23. I didn't retire, I probably could have
retired earlier, but I didn't because I felt
like my identity was cricket. And so I was like,
well, who am I if I'm not playing cricket for
England? Yeah, that's what I was kind of wondering.
Yeah, that was going on. Okay, that makes sense.
And in the end, I just, basically the... whole
thing that came out was in 20 in the summer of
2013 I went back to play men's club cricket because
I was I was basically getting very anxious long
story short right and I was like right what I
need to do is I need to go and play international
standard women's cricket every week to normalize
the standard that I was playing so I thought
the best thing to do would play men's Premier
League club cricket. Anyway, I ended up breaking
my thumb playing men's cricket because one of
the guys absolutely belted it back at me. It
wasn't a catch. It was along the floor. I have
to stipulate that. Yeah, I broke my thumb. So
I ended up for the first time since I think probably
I was seven, I had a good eight -week block in
the summer with no cricket. I couldn't play.
And I was really happy. and I didn't really want
to come back and it was an ashes summer that
2013 summer and I had I came back just in time
for the start of the ashes but having not really
played yeah just had a horrible I had a horrible
it shows that your mindset had changed hadn't
it yeah uh yeah I had yeah I had a horrible time
didn't enjoy it um then there was a tour to the
West Indies and the end of 2013, and my family
decided to book to come and watch before I'd
even decided. I was like, okay, well, I have
to play that tour then if my family have booked
their tickets. And then after that, I was like,
no, I'm out. I need, I need to, I actually was,
I didn't retire. I took some time out just to
be like, I'm not playing cricket. To get your
head straight and feel right. So the anxiety
that you were getting, was that all to do with
the pressure? Yeah, you probably see it quite
a lot now because people speak about it a bit.
At the time, I didn't. I just didn't talk about
it at all. Yeah, just hated it. I don't really
want to get too much into it, but I guess I just,
yeah, felt that there was a lot more to life
than cricket, than playing anymore. And, yeah,
took a full year off. And then in 2015, actually,
in the summer, I decided to go back to playing
club and county cricket. And I remember calling
up the coach and I said, look, I'm coming back
to play some county cricket. I don't want to
get selected for England. I said, I'm not playing
to get selected. I'm playing because I want to
enjoy the sport again. And actually played really
well that summer, obviously, because there was
no pressure. And then, yeah, applied for the
job at the ICC in back end in summer of 2015,
got offered the job and pretty much effectively
went, well, can't really play for England if
I'm working for the ICC. So that was your escape
route. That was my, well, I think that's my sign.
So, yeah, stopped. I think it's such a helpful
experience. for other people to hear because
I think I've certainly worked with lots of people
over my career who the idea of it's like a self
-limiting belief my life is in cricket my skills
are in cricket my identity is in cricket so all
I can do is cricket if I stop doing cricket then
What will the world think? And so it's really
tempting to not listen to your emotion and to
your intuition and to keep pushing yourself and
pushing yourself and pushing yourself. When actually
it's like you had a great experience. You have
a wonderful story. You know, it's something that
people might dream of doing and you did it. You
don't have to keep doing it. It's your life.
You know, if it's not right for you, if you feel
you've got more to give or your passion's elsewhere,
then go do something else. I think particularly
for younger women who might, you know, they've
done a degree in law and then they get to be
a solicitor and they hate it. What, are they
going to spend the next 40 years being a solicitor
or are they going to go to catering college and
become the chef they really want to be? You know,
like that. kind of oh I think it's really helpful
for people to hear especially at your level to
have experienced that where people might look
at it from afar and just think gosh that just
must be wonderful all the time yeah and I think
I think a lot of me felt really guilty because
I felt guilty for not you know people would kill
to be in my position to be playing international
sport and particularly cricket and I felt really
guilty for not wanting it I guess That was kind
of the hard bit. And also, I guess, some people
not understanding it either as to be like, you
know, why would you not want to play for England?
You fly around the world. You play in the Caribbean.
It's wonderful. And I was like, it isn't quite.
But I don't regret or look badly on my cricket
experience. It's taught me a lot. And I've learned
so much from it. taken me into the career I've
got today I would not be sitting here in front
of you if I didn't play cricket at that level
and had all of those experiences before we move
on to what you're doing now and how different
that is and yeah emotionally how different as
well as you know in terms of what you're doing
what did you learn so you said I learned a lot
about myself so what did you learn from that
experience you think if you could go back and
almost give your younger self a few tidbits of
information what would you be saying to her oh
I think I just learned now, like my emotional
intelligence about myself, certainly emotional
intelligence is also working on about other people,
but it's certainly so much better. Like I understand
like when I now need to ask for help and be,
try and be a lot more open about how I'm feeling
because it's just, it got to a stage where it
just wasn't healthy. with with where I was at
it taught me I guess that I can be quite resilient
because there was a lot of stuff that you know
I was going through and I came out the other
side and I'm okay you survived yeah exactly I
always go back and one thing I do wish like when
I was kind of on the verge of coming back in
sort of 2014 I was like I really wish I really
loved it like but I just didn't and it's sometimes
I've had the same thing with friends actually
where your best friends at university or school
and then you try and force yourself to be like
you're like oh let's go for dinner let's catch
up and you find that it's really forced and you
don't want to let that friend meant something
to you for a long time And you try and then continue
to force the friendship and actually learning
when to let go, I think is also been a really
important thing. And it's it's not giving up,
which I think is what at the time I thought it
was. It was actually going, you know, accepting
that something isn't for you. And there is so
many greater opportunities. Yes. Down door three.
So it's giving yourself permission almost to
say that was great. It had its challenges. Been
there, done that. I'm going to move on now. Yeah.
And it sounds like you've had to learn or maybe
you're continuing to learn to forgive yourself
for the fact that you didn't want to do it. Yeah.
For the whole of your career. Yeah. And actually
that's okay. Yeah. And it's really funny because
every time I was at an international competition
with my ICC job hat on, putting on the events.
The first question I'd be around the boundary
and the first question I'd get is, oh, do you
miss it? And I'd be like, no, like straight out
the bat. They'd be like, really? I'm like, no,
absolutely not. I said, I love being in this
seat where I can go. You don't really understand
the amount of work that's gone on to put, you
know, this boundary right round and all of the
things in place for you to have like this great
competition. I got so much more satisfaction.
pride actually out of some of the stuff i did
in that time and those achievements than i ever
did playing and that's that perception isn't
it that people might have of something from afar
like it must be amazing to be you know in like
sort of world cup winning cricket sides or it
must be amazing to be an entrepreneur that set
up your own business or, you know, it must be
amazing to be a creative artist that's well regarded
and has won lots of awards. But you're like,
oh, but what's the reality for those people?
You know, like you say in cricket, the pressure,
the anxiety, the emotion it was creating in you
wasn't nice. That entrepreneur could be just
working. all hours God sends and never seeing
their family because that's what it takes to
make it. The artist might be revered, but doesn't
earn any money. And so he's really struggling.
And so we can look at these things if too simply
and just think that looks ace. But the reality,
the lived reality can be very different. So tell
us about now, because you briefly just talked
about what you're doing now and your face lit
up and you just looked really happy, which is
really nice. So what are you doing now? And why
is this more you? effectively, I moved to the
ICC into sort of a women's cricket officer role.
And it was the classic role of we need someone
to have women's cricket in their title and everything
women's cricket will go past your desk. And it
was kind of my job to bug everyone else around
the organisation to be like, remember, there's
women's cricket. I got the most wonderful five
year experience, which was so varied across a
most ridiculous range of projects. In my third
day flying to Thailand to put on a qualifier
event. But the organizer then had to leave four
days in because she had to fly to Bangladesh
because there was another tournament that needed
her urgent attention, leaving me and one other
to run the tournament. And I was like, I'm three
days into the job, but this is wonderful. So
then kind of being put into going to India in
2016. So this was six months later. You're a
venue manager. It was the joint men's and women's
T20 World Cup. And you're in charge of six teams.
They're going to be staying in Chennai. And you're
going to manage the stadium. And I was like,
OK, cool. And I've got some amazing stories from
that trip around. Just classic crazy India of
things happening. And me being a 26 -year -old
white female in that world trying to manage.
Just ridiculous circumstances. I've got many
examples. But you were loving it. Oh, I loved
it. You can see that and hear it. Yeah. So was
there something about the challenge of that chaos
or the variety that you just were like, oh, yeah.
I think it's also just the empowerment you feel
around. There are so many random challenges from.
From the Pakistan, it was Afghanistan head coach,
he was Pakistani, very, very famous cricketer.
He had the wrong visa, so couldn't actually access
the venue. And it was me telling him, sorry,
I can't do anything. And he was yelling at me
and I'm like, okay, that's great. Thinking this
is interesting to a birthday party the day before.
We had a warm -up game, a men's warm -up game
at one of the stadiums. And all of a sudden,
these flowers started appearing in the morning
and then a red carpet. And I was like, what's
going on? They're like, oh, yeah, we've got a
birthday party tonight. And I was like, sorry,
this venue's the ICC's exclusively? Like, what?
They're like, don't worry, madame, we'll be gone.
But, you know, in the morning, we'll be tidied
up. Get there in the morning, it's all still
there. And you just kind of like rally. I don't
know, the truck leaves all the stuff and the
bus for the players, coaches pulls in and just
there was all sorts of stuff going on. And I
think the adrenaline of an event where you're
just constantly going and supporting and answering,
you know, to all the different team demands and
the venue and and solving problems. And I think
you're also seeing an end product. So at the
end of it all. You could see all of these games
of cricket, these incredible games of cricket
were being put on because of you. And also I
do really like puzzles. Like I genuinely have
puzzle books in my spare time. And I like problem
solving. And I think you never get them all right.
No way. But you certainly learn from all the
ones you do and the processes. And that to me
is... way more satisfying and going oh yeah i
you know that that happened because of me that's
that's that's nice i did that so you were feeling
like you were having real impact perhaps i mean
there's still a lot of that dedication going
on and discipline and turning up and dealing
with the the crazy things that are happening
the birthday parties and things but you are just
enjoying intrinsically enjoying that experience
so much more So you'd left cricket feeling a
bit like, oh, you know, what are people going
to think of me? And I've let myself down maybe
a bit from what you were saying. How long into
the new job did you start to feel really good?
I think just things just continuously got better,
like built and built because the profile and
the scale of events that I was doing was. going
up and up. I started in a, you know, I said three
days into the job, I was in Thailand for an eight
team women's qualifier, you know, no crowd, no
nothing. It was just. putting it on to kind of
the madness in India to then the following year
I ran from scratch a women's world cup the women's
world cup in 2017 that happened in England I
ran the qualifier in Sri Lanka and we were like
yeah we've got no budget we've got no format
we've got no venue or host can you just sort
of go off and sort that please so so off I went
and then a project that had nothing to do with
women's cricket but no one put their hand up
to do and it was ginormous, was, and this is
going to sound really technical, so I really
apologise to anyone that doesn't know cricket,
but cricket has this thing where it's called
official status, where you can play an official
international match at this level. So, you know,
think test match cricket. Only certain countries
can actually play a test match because they have
a thing called test status. I see, yeah. Same
with one -day international cricket. They decided
to go basically to... make t20 international
status open to all 105 members they made this
decision at sort of a board level that that's
what they wanted to do but they didn't 15 did
you say it was yeah but they didn't actually
think how on earth they were gonna implement
it because there were quite strict rules around
the size of ground you can have that you had
to play on grass that you had to have certain
levels of umpiring that you had to have a validated
scoring system. I'm sensing a puzzle growing
here. Yeah, exactly. What they didn't want was
to devalue international cricket, but they also
wanted to make it accessible. And you were saying
nobody wanted to do it. I'm sensing you volunteered
for this. Yeah, I did, yes. Yeah, I volunteered.
Not over what period of time? Was this just over
one year or over a few years? No, no, no. We
had about, I want to say, I don't know, six months
to 12 months. Oh, wow. Yeah, to do it all. So
you did it? in that yeah yeah yeah we yeah we
didn't really have a choice we were just like
right and the best actually one of the best things
was is i had to present how we were going to
implement this at our annual conference so it's
all 105 members are present obviously there's
you know 300 400 people in this room and i had
to go up and kind of tell them how on earth their
country could play a t20 and what they had to
do yeah um to comply what was that like yeah
it was fun i really enjoy i actually really enjoy
public speaking weirdly i don't don't like networking
and and socializing in rooms full of people but
i don't mind speaking at people yes um no it
was fun i got i kind of was like right how do
i make really dull regulations interesting so
i got everyone in the room to stand up And I
said, please sit down if you you only have artificial
turf in. venues in your country so like 50 sat
down and then i'd be like sit down if you and
i eventually got most ridiculous i was like sit
down don't be floodlights and all of this stuff
eventually i got the whole room to sit down and
i was like you'll be pleased to know that every
single one of you can still play a t20 international
nice and they were like oh okay because i was
trying to like go through what the regulations
were around the point was is we're trying to
keep it open and it's not going to be perfect
and you get you kind of start these projects
as well where you spend ages trying to make the
perfect solution and you spend you know 12 months
like building a system and we basically were
like quite open to say right we've only got 12
months through this it's not going to be perfect
but we're going to learn pretty quickly so let
the whole point is we want to get people playing
you know countries playing more cricket so let's
let them play and we may make you know mistakes
along the way or there may be things that we
have to tighten up but let's not let that stop
us so I think that was the mentality which was
great yeah and that gets you moving presumably
because if you're worried about it being perfect
then you could end up just procrastinating for
ages thinking well it's just not possible yeah
whereas actually to just be like this is going
to evolve let's make a start do as much as we
can and then presumably over the years that follow
tweaks then occur don't they and it all gets
yeah so Even though towards the end of your cricketing
career, it maybe wasn't the nicest experience
for you, you've gone on to continue to champion
cricket, haven't you? Like everything you've
been doing has been improving and championing
the women's game, it sounds like. Yeah, because
I saw the bigger picture because I knew it wasn't
a game for me as in to play, but I... knew what
it's done for so many people other people other
women other cultures than me and I love how cricket
brings people together how it's a sport that's
really social like you spend 50 % of the time
nine of you are nattering on the side of a pitch
two of you are doing some hard work in the middle
it's one of those sports that's really changed
a lot of the culture like I you know I got to
know quite well some of the pakistan women's
team and just some of their stories are absolutely
incredible around what they've been through has
there been an empowerment going on there yeah
then for them yeah and acceptance around acceptance
yeah around how women can play sport too i mean
there's still a long long way to go yeah So there's
a couple of things I wanted to ask you about
in terms of sort of advice or tips you might
give to other women following in your footsteps.
One is young girls who might be interested in
a sporting career and what you would tell them
it's important to do. And then maybe women who
are looking to change profession and changing
that, making that big step because they're the...
The two things I think are really powerful about
your story. A really interesting piece of advice,
not that it was given to me personally, but it
was like one of those classic conferences that
someone was saying how she was trying to get,
she really wanted to be in marketing. She kept
getting told, you don't have the experience,
you don't have the experience. She's like, well,
how am I ever going to get the experience if
you don't give me a chance? So what she decided
to do was actually decide to create her own experience.
So decided to start her own blogs, her own websites
to kind of market herself and do something off
her own back. And actually, this is really not
answering your question, but it's kind of something
I want to talk about. I want to say it was sort
of 2018. I was in Dubai. And for my New Year's
resolution, not that I've done any really ever
since, I decided to create a blog because I wanted
to do something very different for myself and
push myself out my comfort zone. So the blog
was called Alpha Beta Zumba. And I went, there
are 52 weeks of the year. There's 26 letters
of the alphabet. And I decided to try a new sport
or activity for each letter of the alphabet during
this year. Wow. I had an incredible year. My
phone photos for that year are videos. The storage
is a bit blocked, but also excruciatingly painful
and uncomfortable to like go out and speak to
strangers. to put myself out there and kind of
go up to someone at the beginning of this activity
be like hi I'm Holly I'm doing this thing do
you mind if I do some filming it'd be great you
know just trying this for the first time and
like 90 % of the time the response was yeah absolutely
that sounds brilliant like what's your blog like
we'll help you out and actually getting such
a positive response but feeling so awkward about
it and understanding what it's like to be a woman
but also to be a woman starting something from
scratch and going into something as a complete
beginner. Yeah. And feeling like really, you
know, self -conscious, quite, you know, feeling
a little bit embarrassed about the standard compared
to people that were playing regularly. Or at
the same time, just feeling really liberated
about it and just really enjoying some of the
stuff I did. What do you think you gained from
doing that? What did it give you back? a real
kind of life experience and understanding about
kind of barriers to women in sport and why you
might not want to start like the I really had
to consciously force myself to go because I knew
it was part on some things it really taught me
that actually communicating with people and speaking
to people actually 90 % of the time everyone's
really friendly and welcoming I'm still working
on it I still hate networking I still have a
really serious face when I go into a room because
I don't like I thought I would still find it
really awkward um so that's a work in progress
and then how about for women who might be just
not feeling their love for their current career
and but are a bit scared maybe that they're going
to let themselves down or let people down if
they change given that you've been through that
what would you say to them I'd say take a minute
as in take a minute for yourself like be patient
with yourself and understanding and and feel
like what it is you really want I think people
are looking for a kind of a sign or a golden
moment to go I'm not currently happy with what
I'm doing but they're waiting for something else
to come along and maybe feel they can't leave
because they don't know what to next but I think
that doesn't matter so much I think it's about
if you know to your core that you are unhappy
and want to make a move just move and it may
not be the right move but at least you'll know
okay i don't like that you can move again you
can move again yes and don't be afraid to to
do that it doesn't have to be your north star
your calling or you know something that comes
along reminding me of what you were saying um
about the big project with the 2020 going from
10 to 150 which is don't worry about it being
perfect don't worry about your first step being
the right step like there's some predestined
route you're supposed to be taking and you've
got to wait for that to open out actually a bit
like your what did you call it alpha beta zumba
was alpha beta zumba is just actually just go
try some stuff just get out there and try some
stuff or take some time like you're saying take
some time for yourself so you had to take some
time you broke your thumb but actually in that
six weeks to eight weeks that's when you thought
oh my gosh I am happy and that's the light bulb
moment yes isn't it where you think right so
what do I do now with that insight yes I can
either carry on I can put myself back where I
was but now I have this knowledge yeah got to
do something with it yeah no you're right But
it still took me two tours to then do something
about it. Yes. Yeah. But yeah. These things aren't
quick or easy, are they? But it's that kind of,
I think that's what's really helpful listening
to other women's journeys is that actually just
have a bit of faith in your own intuition, I
think is a very powerful thing to think about.
Listen to your emotions as well. Like you said
about being emotionally intelligent. not about
other people, but about yourself. Am I okay?
Am I asking for the help I need? Am I having
the experiences I want in life? Am I feeling
the way I want to feel in life? And even if you
have a wonderful job, if you're not happy, it's
not a wonderful job. It's just a job. Yeah. And
so as a final thing, we kind of touched on this
earlier, but just as a more general career overview,
just thinking about where you are now, if you
were to go back to that kind of 15 year old Holly
and just whispering her ear something about the
journey to come. What tip would you give her?
I certainly wouldn't want to tell her what's
coming because I think that's half the beauty
of it is that I still don't know where I'm going.
You know, the classic case of where are you going
to be in five years? I still have no idea. And
I've actually ended up, I've traveled around
the world and I've ended up. now living five
minutes down the road from literally where I
grew up and I never thought I would be end up
back there I almost vowed actually at 15 that
I would never end up back in my village and now
I am and I actually love it but um you know for
very different reasons from what I ever thought
so I think I think just take you know continue
to take every opportunity like you said when
I had that will to just jump into an opportunity
I was like yeah I'll do that yeah um yeah I'll
give that a go because that is the best experience
you can ever have and be willing to understand
learn from mistakes and be not afraid to make
them just don't make them twice I think I think
that's the the key is kind of like learning you
know learn quick yeah learn and learn quick and
be open to experience I think you can hear that
running right through everything that you've
done yeah and that has been the thing that has
brought you to a place where you are much much
happier and feel like you're having a much bigger
impact in the way you want to yeah that's wonderful
Holly thank you so much it's been an absolute
pleasure to chat to you and I hope people have
enjoyed hearing your story I think there'll be
some surprises in there Probably. But thank you.
I really appreciate it. No problem. Thanks. In
the next episode, somebody who's been a high
performer suddenly isn't performing as well.
That could be your impact on them. You know,
you've overmanaged and you've micromanaged. Don't
let great get in the way of good. And sometimes
good is good enough. And it's not saying that
you're lowering your standards. It's just actually
you're moving your capacity of work elsewhere.
Thank you.