Hi, I'm psychologist and author, Leona Deakin,
and welcome to Leadership Journeys,
the podcast where we delve into the minds
of inspirational women to find out what makes them tick.
Last week, we heard from Deborah Ogden,
who talked about how feeling like a failure
when she left her high-profile marketing career behind
to have her son, her really wanted son,
became the secret to her success
as a personal branding and impact expert.
Coming up on this episode...
I do worry about... I have always worried about
what people think of me, but not to the extent
I have wanted to change something about me.
So I would dye my hair.
I never wanted to be one of the popular girls.
I actually was quite happy just sitting in the middle being me,
but I've never changed anything about me
to suit a set of circumstances or to suit a job.
Can being your true self be the key to thriving
in a serious world such as criminal law?
Today, I am talking to a leader that I've had the pleasure
to witness working her leadership magic over recent years.
Zoe Gascoigne is the head of Offshore Corporate and Wealthy
in the Fraud Investigation Service at HMRC.
Ooh.
I'm feeling a little guilty just being in their building.
I haven't done anything wrong, I don't think,
but if I have, they'll find me.
Now, Zoe is a multi-award-winning and experienced lawyer
and a senior leader in criminal justice and financial crime.
In fact, in 2024, she was awarded Outstanding Manager
slash Director tackling economic crime.
Yes.
I mean, you need to get that on a badge or something,
I feel, Zoe.
Anyway, Zoe, welcome to the podcast.
So here you are at HMRC.
You are a lawyer.
You've worked with the Crown Prosecution Service,
which is where we first met.
It is, yes.
And now you've been here for a little while
and you've done some quite meaty cases,
which we'll talk about in a moment.
I just wanted to just ask to start with,
what's your current role?
What does it actually cover?
So although I am a qualified lawyer,
I'm actually not practicing as such as a lawyer at the moment
because I am basically, as you've said,
head of Offshore Corporate and Wealthy
within the Fraud Investigation Service.
And what that means is I lead a team of around 500
at the moment, civil and fraud investigators.
And we basically investigate tax fraud
in that offshore corporate and wealthy space.
So anything very high level, complicated,
large sums of money, and that's basically our jobs.
And just to give a bit of context to that,
we can't go into this for legal reasons,
but Zoe was head of the team that led the prosecution
and subsequent civil settlement of Bernie Eccleston.
Yeah, that's right.
So it's quite high profile,
tax avoidancy kind of behavior.
Nice and complex.
Cool, yeah.
Basically going after the criminals is a thing for you,
is it?
It is, and specifically for me in terms of economic crime.
So that kind of, the greed.
So actually people who really should just be paying
what they owe in the same way
that everybody else does in society,
but almost become more and more and more greedy.
So actually don't pay what is owed in respect of tax,
which we know is extremely important
because it funds all of the public services
that every single one of us relies on.
Yeah, so you're out there fighting that fight
and making them pay.
We were talking before and you said that
you're on a bit of a mission in your career.
So you have real purpose
to doing the things that you do, don't you?
Yeah.
So why law?
Just tell me that.
Why did law appeal particularly?
Can you remember that moment where it became intriguing?
So I don't think, do you know what?
I don't think there was a moment
because it was always, always criminal law.
From as early as I can remember,
I wanted to do criminal law
and my mom and dad had no idea where this had come from.
I didn't know any criminal lawyers.
I used to like reading things like Nancy Drew mysteries
and stuff like that.
I think I have an extremely strong sense of purpose
and I am driven by fairness.
I am driven by, I suppose to a certain extent,
standing up for people who perhaps can't do that themselves.
So I always knew that I wanted to do criminal law
that I never wavered, literally never wavered.
I was always going to do it.
I'm sort of imagining you as a young girl in your bedroom,
just doing like court cases with your teddy bears
or something like that.
The whole courtroom thing really, really fascinated me.
And I suppose to a certain extent,
the only choice that I ever really had to make,
consciously make,
was whether I was going to be a solicitor or a barrister.
And that came much later
because I always did have visions of myself
of being in a courtroom.
So I think I probably always thought
that I was going to be a barrister.
And I was always very interested in drama
and courtrooms can be quite theatrical.
But actually after doing work experience,
and I was fortunate enough when I was in school
to do work experience with two sets of barristers chambers.
But then I did work experience in a solicitor's office
and actually realized for me
that it was the contact with the people I really liked.
And I think as a solicitor,
you have more contact with people.
So I started my career defending in private practice.
So I was a criminal defense lawyer for 16 years,
which does cause some people to raise eyebrows
because it's one of those jobs
that some people will sort of like look at you and go,
well, how do you do that job?
How do you represent people that you know of being guilty?
And actually for me, number one,
everybody deserves representation.
And you don't represent people as being guilty
if you know that they're innocent.
Actually, there are people who do terrible things
or who terrible things happen to
that leads them down a path.
And actually they need somebody to put
what their backstory is or what's happened to them.
So, there's a lot by way of mitigation.
Equally on the other hand,
there are people who do get accused of things
that they haven't done
and they need people in their corner.
And they're the cases for me that in that part
of my career stood out.
So it was looking after taking care of representing people
who needed that voice to challenge
what was being said against them.
What was the experience like as a young woman
going into that world?
Hard, there weren't a huge amount
of female defense solicitors.
There was a number,
but men were definitely in the majority.
And in fact, when I did work experience in court,
when I was at school,
women weren't even allowed to wear trousers.
So, you are talking of a time.
I don't like to think of myself as being that old.
And I suppose to a certain extent, me going into it,
especially as a young female,
it meant that you did sort of like stand out.
I've always dyed my hair.
I've always, I've never sort of like toned anything
like that down.
I've always worn makeup.
I can think back, there were two occasions
when I was in my twenties,
where I was asked to move in court
because the usher came over to me and said,
excuse me, you need to move.
And I would like pack my stuff up
and I would be like, oh, I'm sorry.
What, you know, why thinking,
maybe there was a leak in the ceiling.
And they'd say, that's where the solicitors sit.
Oh wow.
And I'd be like, right,
let's get everything back out again.
And I would just say, I am a solicitor.
And then another occasion actually,
where I'd gone to a magistrates court
and I'd seen the defendant in the cells.
It was a very male dominated courtroom.
And I came up into the court
and the magistrates asked
if they could have a word with the clerk.
And the clerk turned around and he said,
excuse me, Ms. Gascoigne, the magistrates want to know,
have you brought a practising certificate with you?
Wow.
And I just said, no, to be honest,
I think at the time I didn't know how to respond.
I don't know what their assumption was
that I'd maybe been cleaning the office
and nobody could find a solicitor.
So I'd put a suit on from the back of the door
and traipsed into court.
Thought I'll have a go at this.
Trying to pull a fast one.
It's those kinds of behaviours that you brush off,
but actually they're not right
and they're not funny in any way.
As opposed to a certain extent,
if you were a different personality,
that would chip away at you
because it's about people's view of your appearance
as opposed to your ability.
And some people would stop dying their hair.
Yes, some people would stop dying their hair.
Not me.
Was that about being a female?
A young person?
I think it was about being a young female.
A young female.
A young female, very much so.
Right, and then not looking like you were trying
to be more grown up.
Or more serious.
Yes, yes.
But this was one of the reasons why I really wanted
to have you along on the podcast
because you are a very vibrant person.
My daughter, who's 11, is dying to see the pictures
of the lady with the red hair that I'm interviewing today.
But you always have been that, just you have been you.
Yes.
And I wanted to ask when that had started,
but you're saying right from the start,
right from early years.
Do you know what?
I think that started in secondary school because,
and it's funny now because I've got twin daughters
of my own, I have a son as well, and they're 13 now.
And I think in secondary school, I have the confidence,
and I don't know where it came from,
to never apologize for being me.
I do worry, I have always worried
about what people think of me,
but not to the extent I have wanted
to change something about me.
So I would dye my hair.
I never wanted to be one of the popular girls.
I actually was quite happy just sitting
in the middle being me and trying to be fair
and to be nice and to be kind.
But I've never changed anything about me
to suit a set of circumstances or to suit a job.
That's interesting, isn't it?
But you don't know where that came from.
No.
That's just something that's in your character,
maybe your family upbringing.
Yeah, who knows?
Who knows?
I mean, that's a psychologist's dream
to try and dig into that.
But it's maybe not the purpose of this podcast, is it?
You make me nervous, and I'll be over here.
So tell me about your childhood.
No, we won't go down that route.
So then there you are, you're a young woman.
So you're facing some things that it sounds like
on the face of it, you're brushing them off.
I think like a lot of people of our generation,
maybe when we look back now in hindsight,
think, oh my goodness, I can't believe I put up
with that kind of banter or that kind of behavior.
But at the time, that's how the world works.
So you didn't even notice it, did you?
No.
At the time.
And so as you're getting into your career,
did it become easier or were there more and more obstacles
as you went?
So I would say there was probably more and more obstacles.
And again, I think you've just almost hit the nail
on the head, because I think at the time,
you don't appreciate actually how wrong something is.
And you know, and I've never been afraid
to challenge anything.
I've probably made choices that I wouldn't make now
in terms of putting up with certain behaviors.
And actually, when I think back in terms of my career,
I have been treated quite badly on a number of occasions.
And I would say that that has probably been down
to being female.
I think probably the next hurdle that I faced
was having children.
Because again, when you are operating
in a male dominated environment,
you making a decision and there was never an issue for me
about whether I wanted children
or didn't always want children.
My first one didn't come naturally, he was IVF.
So again, I suppose that was a different challenge for me
because that was, I look back at myself then,
and I spent a lot of time trying to prove
that I could do everything and that nothing could change
and that no standards slipped,
instead of actually accepting
that life throws challenges at us.
And it's okay to go through those challenges.
You don't have to put on the brave face
and pretend that actually I can keep
all of these plates spinning
because at some point in time,
some of those plates are gonna drop.
And then I fell pregnant naturally with my twins,
who, well, I had a very difficult pregnancy with them,
had 20 twin transfusion syndrome.
But again, throughout all of that,
so again, my son, when I fell pregnant with them,
he was probably about 17 months old.
I was still working, well, four days a week,
but probably in reality five,
because I was just determined to stick to the standards
that I always had.
And I didn't want people to think that I couldn't do things.
So I over proved probably to the point
of coming very close to burnout,
I would say looking back now.
And that wasn't a particularly healthy time in my life,
but ultimately it brought about changes
because there was a time when actually I decided
I can't carry on like this and things have got to change.
Yeah, because I was going to ask, well, a couple of things.
One, where that pressure to almost keep up a facade
was coming from.
And the other was the impact it was having.
So the pressure, was that coming from within you?
Was that something that you didn't want to let people down
or you didn't want people to think you couldn't do it?
Or was there an expectation externally
that you couldn't let your standards drop?
So there was a definite expectation externally
that then manifested itself.
It would be really difficult, I think, for me to unpick
which came first, because I think that I will always
still try and over prove myself.
I'm the best at giving advice to other people about,
don't do this, you've got to look after yourself.
You need to take time out.
I am the worst in the world for actually doing it.
So it would be difficult to unpick which came first.
There was that definite male dominated.
When you do criminal defense,
it's not a pretty area to work in.
You're working with the worst things that go on in society.
And actually, I suppose to a certain extent,
one of the personality types that that attracts
are tough people.
You're then faced with working alongside people
who are also tough and have high expectations
with almost no give.
So there's a kind of machismo to it
in terms of how it's done and the people it attracts
and then how they then subsequently behave.
I mean, there you are.
Not only have you got three children
under the age of three, which is crazy, twins,
and then both of the births had been challenging
and difficult, the pregnancy issues around that.
So a lot of stuff that some people would just,
that's all they'd be talking about
and thinking about and doing.
But you were also doing a full-time job
in a very gritty world and trying to pretend
that everything was fine.
That everything was fine.
I bet there's so many women that can relate to this.
But what was the impact of that on you?
Being constantly overwhelmed
and actually feeling a little bit anxious.
So I got to a stage where I would just feel anxious.
I couldn't enjoy things because I was constantly
almost like in a state of worry.
And I can remember actually the friend,
I remember driving to her house
because we were going out for a meal with another friend
and thinking, I don't want to go for a meal.
I can't be in this setting.
I don't know why.
And I picked her up and said,
I'm actually not going to come in for the meal.
And she said, why?
And I said, because that's something
that I just need to go and do.
I just couldn't face being in a lighthearted,
chit chatty, normal setting.
And I think it was at that point that I realized
something's just going to have to.
This just isn't right.
And it's probably physiologically,
just your fight and flight hormones are right high, aren't they?
And that cortisol and adrenaline, we were alert,
we're on it, we're no relaxation, no joy.
No.
So what did that teach you?
I mean, you said before, I'm good at giving the advice,
I'm not good at taking it.
So maybe it didn't teach you much.
But what did you learn from that in terms of what not to do
later or maybe what to do?
I learned to be open and honest with people
about how I feel.
So the one thing that I will always do,
if I am feeling, I always describe it
a sense of overwhelm.
I say out loud that that is how I'm feeling.
So I will say to my husband,
feeling a little bit overwhelmed and he kind of,
you know, will sort of like, knows, right, okay, that's fine.
It doesn't mean that anything necessarily has to change
or that he has to do anything.
I just need someone to know that that's how I feel.
And I will have to process it and deal with it.
But the fact that I have said it
and I am not pretending that everything is all right.
The conversation around mental health,
I will often be really honest.
So I'm the mental health sponsor in work.
And I will give people accounts of, you know,
things that have happened to me.
Because actually what I don't think it's healthy
is that people look at me and think
everything must be perfect
because it's not perfect for everybody.
And it is that, you know,
you don't know what's going on in people's lives.
So it is being mindful actually for me in my position,
showing of vulnerability is really important
for people who are going through difficulties
to say it is okay not to be okay.
So, so yeah.
And you're a vibrant person.
You know, you're colorful in personality
and in appearance, aren't you?
So it would be easy for people to look at that and think,
oh, Zoe is just great.
She's fine.
She's always happy.
She's got a lovely life.
She must have had a really easy ride.
That's it.
And then like you say,
particularly for maybe more junior members of the team
or more struggling members of the team
to show that vulnerability is, yeah.
It's really important.
Yeah.
My juggle is the same.
That's it.
My juggle is the same as everybody else's.
Yes.
And I think for me as well in particular,
it's showing that especially for women,
having children doesn't mean that you don't get to achieve
what you want to achieve.
And one of the things I have always thought is,
you know, actually when women have children
and this is something that I would love to be recognized,
they will probably be your most loyal and faithful assets
because they, you know, they want to be in the job.
They need that stability.
They've got enough going on in their lives
trying to raise children, which let's face it,
is hard enough, but they are an asset for employers
as opposed to a problem.
And so we get so much identity, don't we, from our jobs,
from our work.
It's like the second question at a party, isn't it?
Yeah.
What's your name?
What do you do?
And so I think you're right,
particularly when you have a baby,
your first probably is where you lose that sense of,
oh my goodness, who am I?
And that first period of time when you go back into work
after maternity leave, it's like revisiting the old you.
Yes.
There's something there about, oh, I remember who I am.
Yeah.
And so there is something there
that's really useful about that.
What would you do differently
if you were to go back and relive that?
Do you know what, that's really difficult
because one of the things that I always think is
if I changed anything, would I be the person that I am now?
What I would have done and the advice that I would give
to somebody in my position
is I would have been more open about it.
And I would have said,
actually, do you know what, this isn't okay.
Any expectation on me to carry on whilst everything is,
feels like it's crumbling behind me.
I had a period of time where,
when my twins were five months old,
they both developed bronchiolitis
and ended up in hospital on ventilators.
Even when they were still coming through that,
I was expected to go back to work
and just carry on as normal when, as you said,
I had the three children under three.
You make those decisions because a lot of it,
there's financial pressure because you need to keep your job.
But I think I probably would have taken better care of myself.
There's that really good bit of advice, isn't there,
about putting your own oxygen mask on first
in terms of I've never been very good
at putting myself first.
I'm still probably not that great at putting myself first
to make sure actually that I'm in the place
that means I can look after other people.
So I do, I think it's that, yeah,
put yourself first and do what you need to do for you.
That's great advice.
And I think particularly with capable personalities,
it's very easy to fall into that trap of feeling
almost a pride in the fact that you're carrying on.
And actually, yeah, I can do this.
I can keep all these plates spinning until you can't.
There's a pride in that, isn't there?
And so- There is.
And you know what, that's very prevalent,
I think, in the legal sector.
And it depends on the sort of like the area of law
that people operate in, but it is very prevalent at this.
You have to show up at goodness knows what time.
There's people that will work through the clock,
whether it's in criminal defense,
because you're on call and going to police stations,
whether it's in the corporate world,
because you're turning contracts around really quickly.
But there's no pride in burnout.
And actually that does not make for happy
and capable employees.
You want people who are driven by the job
for the right reasons.
Yes.
Was that an impetus that I experienced
to doing different things with your career?
Did it have a practical impact
as well as a psychological impact?
Did you manage your career differently after that near burnout?
I suppose to a certain extent I did,
but my big change didn't come for about three years after.
Okay.
So I stayed in private practice for a little bit,
but then not long after I'd first had the girls,
there started to be a lot of noise around legal aid
and things like that.
And I started to, because I felt very passionate
about people who are less privileged
accessing the help that they need to,
one of those things being legal aid.
And I got involved with an association
called the Criminal Law Solicitor's Association,
which I very quickly became chair of.
It was a national association.
And I think it was probably that
that propelled my career in a different direction
because I started, I had more of a national profile
and I was, I suppose in a position
where I was speaking truth to power a lot
in terms of the legal aid system
and how that was affecting real people.
That was an entirely voluntary post,
because of course you do take on voluntary posts
when you're working
and you've got three very young children.
That was a voluntary post,
but that put me in a position
where I was having meetings with various law chancellors,
not things that I had ever dreamed of doing,
but things that I did
because I was driven by that sense of purpose.
And then after about three years of doing that,
I saw a job that had been advertised
in the Crown Prosecution Service
to lead a specialist fraud team and my real driver,
thinking back to how I used to approach criminal law,
was the whole white collar crime,
as some people refer to it.
And so what's maybe not been made explicit
in that description is when you came
into the Crown Prosecution Service,
you came in in a leadership role,
senior leadership role there, leading a team.
And this is something I think that's differentiated you,
maybe from some of the other lawyers, isn't it?
Your leadership, your leadership staff.
Talk to us about leading people then.
What is it in that that lights you up and that you enjoy?
Because you do enjoy that, don't you?
I love it.
And do you know what?
It's really funny listening to you say that,
because when I came into this job,
there is a colleague who I work with now,
because I worked with HMRC when I was at the CPS.
And when I came into this job,
or when I was asked to consider coming into this job,
I said to one of my colleagues in HMRC,
I don't know, how could I do this job?
Because what would I bring?
I'm a lawyer.
And he just said to me,
mate, you're not a lawyer, you're a leader.
And I was like, oh, I'd never thought of myself
as a leader.
So the concept of becoming a leader as an identity
was a really strange one for me,
because I think any sort of like leadership
has always been a little bit of a,
that's just in me.
I think probably when I was younger,
people would have called me bossy.
I like to organize people,
and I'm quite happy sorting things out
and sort of like being in charge of things.
But for me now, I leading people,
that's my thing.
And actually developing people, bringing people on,
getting the best out of people,
getting people into the right roles.
I love all of that.
And I think that makes a difference then
to the people that you're managing,
because if you are enjoying organizing them,
maybe being bossy a bit, but organizing them,
but also helping them, supporting them,
developing them, targeting them, challenging them,
pushing them, all those things, you're enjoying that.
And not from a point of view of status
and power for yourself.
Absolutely not, no, no.
For me, it's about creating environments
for people to thrive.
So I still love what I do.
I still love the purpose.
So that is really important to me.
But actually, there is only so much
that you can do on your own to get the multiplier effect.
It's getting people into the right space
to drive the purpose.
So for me, creating the right work environments for people
is really, really, really important.
Being supportive, telling people
that it's okay to ask for help,
because the area that I worked in,
that I still work in now,
so if you think about being in the Crown Prosecution Service,
you're dealing with really high complex,
often very difficult areas of law,
where people are very well represented by,
the top QCs in the country.
I will often say to people,
I am not the smartest person in the world.
I will try really hard,
but these things have to be achievable.
You can't always assume that somebody else
is going to do the hard stuff and then just sit back.
And actually, if people are going to step up
and do the hard stuff,
the least that you can do is create an environment
that makes their time and their working there happy.
The way you lead, is this the way you were led?
Is that how you learned this?
No, I wouldn't say so, no.
I would say my leadership journey
has mainly involved how not to behave
and picking up things that don't work.
I think back at, I've had a number of different bosses
and managers over the years,
and they've all been very different,
some I've liked more than others.
I think it's actually picking the bits
that really don't work and thinking,
actually, that wasn't a very nice period of my life.
How do I make sure that nobody who is within my wider team
is ever exposed to those sorts of behaviors?
It's knowing and understanding what drives people.
So I think a lot of people that I have worked for
sort of in the past and in the private sector,
I wouldn't necessarily have described them as being leaders
because they will be bosses or managers.
And I think sometimes bosses and managers
are motivated by ego and their own success
and their own ambition.
Whereas I think leaders are motivated by something
that is far wider in terms of bringing people along,
that sense of purpose.
So again, it's that saying there's no I in team
because actually as a leader, it isn't about you.
It's about the people that you are leading
and that's what's that for me is the really,
I suppose, important thing in terms of your leadership.
It isn't about you.
Might be your name at the top, but it's not about you
because you're not doing all of the work.
I can't do all of the work
that the 500 people in my team do.
I can help to drive them.
I can help to support them.
On occasion, I will lead some of the stuff
because again, there's a lot in there around role modeling.
One of the things that my dad always taught me
when I was younger was you never ask anybody
to do something that you're not prepared to do yourself
and that is something that I've absolutely carried with me.
So I live by that with my team as well.
Yeah, I mean, there's showing that work ethic coming in
just from that one little quote from dad, isn't it?
It's just like roll your sleeves up, get involved
and don't be asking other people to do something
because you don't want to do it.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And you're in it with them.
That's right.
Yeah.
So those qualities in the bosses, as you described them,
I like that the difference
between the boss manager versus the leader,
those qualities in the bosses
that were having a negative impact.
Could you summarize those?
Like what are the kind of two or three things
that you've observed?
People get wrong?
No, I mean, I used to work for one person
who would call you into the office and say,
right, you show me where your name is on the letterhead
and then let's look where mine is.
So, you're talking about some really quite overt behaviors
in terms of I am more senior than you,
I am more important than you, you will defer to me.
And that's that whole dot, dot, dot,
my opinion matters therefore more than yours.
And when we look at that whole agenda around diversity
of voice and the fact that creativity
and improved problem solving and decision making
comes from a bit of constructive conflict
and people feeling comfortable to speak up and speak out.
You know, in a medical community, it can save lives.
That's right.
When people are happy to speak up and go,
sorry, I think we're about to make a mistake.
If that junior member of the team stands back,
people can die.
Absolutely.
You know, all of these things going on
and actually to have that status conscious thing
very overtly played out as an inhibitor, isn't it?
100% because it's crushing,
because actually not only are you crushing an individual,
but you are crushing their capability.
And actually when you think about it, as a leader,
I want to lead people who are better than me.
You know, and that's the thing
because you've given those examples there,
not one person has the answer to everything.
Just because you have achieved a certain status
does not make you better than the next person.
It doesn't automatically mean that you know
all the answers to everything.
It puts you in a position of privilege
where you should be drawing out the capabilities
and the abilities of other people in your team.
And your job is spotting that and nurturing it,
not crushing it.
And I've noticed over my career,
one of the things I've noticed that when psychologists
such as myself are pulled into an organization,
a leader will be saying, you know,
I've got a whole group of people here that just aren't,
and then words like proactive or showing any initiative
or self-motivated, things like that will come out.
And the kind of request is almost like,
can you come and Daren Brown them?
You know, can you just sprinkle some psychological magic
and make them all a bit more umphy?
And there's a standard question from my profession,
which is, okay, so let's say you've got 10 people
in your team, how many out of the 10 are behaving that way?
Because if you say to me two or three,
then that's probably down to them.
You know, maybe it's their character,
maybe they're in the wrong job,
maybe there's things going on in their personal life
that mean they can't be there 100%.
That's probably about them.
But if you're saying to me seven to eight
of the people in your team out of this group of 10
are behaving this way,
that's something you're doing to them.
As a culture, as a leader.
And that for me is the cultural issue.
And that's where you need to change the culture.
It's like, for example,
when you think about performance management,
that's a tough conversation that nobody ever wants to have.
But actually you flip that on its head.
Performance management can be a really constructive thing
because actually done properly,
what it should enable you to do
is get to the heart of the reason as to,
why isn't that person performing?
Is it because they're not capable?
Is it because they're in the wrong job?
Is it because they don't feel supported?
Is it because they don't have the tools?
Again, they're conversations that people need to turn
on their heads in terms of,
performance management shouldn't be seen as a punishment.
Because there aren't very many people, if any,
who turn up to work to do a bad job.
Because we spend the biggest proportion of our lives in work
and it's too short to be miserable
in a job that you're doing.
So actually, if you're unhappy, why is that?
And what I'm hearing from you is that you see
that your role as a leader is being a bit
of a performance detective.
So trying to find out why is that person not
as happy as they could be or as productive as they could be
or as involved in the team as they could be.
And actually showing enough interest to try
and solve that puzzle with them.
And I think, yes.
So one of my drivers, and it's taken me a little while
to realize this in terms of people is,
I quite like getting sort of teams,
you know, running as they should be.
So turning performance around in a team culture,
that is not an easy thing to do.
And it's funny because recently,
somebody in my own team described me as a legacy leader
because they said, they feel that their perception of me
is I'm the kind of person who comes in
and will have all the difficult conversations,
will try and deal with all the difficult stuff.
But doesn't do it on the basis of,
I'll necessarily be there to reap the rewards
because what I am trying to create is a legacy
of teams who are high performing
and therefore getting the results that they need
and that they deserve.
Again, because your purpose is this team has to perform
and do the things that you feel
they should be doing for society.
Yes, yes.
I mean, I can hear like an honesty thread
running through the things that you're saying
because you were saying the things that you learned
about yourself in terms of becoming overly stressed
towards burnout was I should have been more honest.
I should have been more open.
Maybe I should have spoken to my family more.
Maybe I should have said enough to my bosses more.
I should have been a bit more open.
And then in this conversation now,
you're talking about actually there's a real power
in just telling the truth of what you're seeing.
I see that you're maybe not as happy as you could be
or I see that you're not having the impact
that I'd want you to and there's a bravery to that.
Yeah. Honesty, isn't there?
There is.
And I suppose, yes, there is.
There definitely is.
And the one thing that I will always try and do
is be honest because it's not fair to people if you're not.
That's sometimes difficult
because sometimes people may not want to hear it,
but actually your responsibility is trying to make sure
that some of those messages land in the right way.
But I think it's really important as a leader
to be honest because if you're not honest,
how can people trust you?
What I'm hearing from you is to enable yourself
to be a bit of a control freak, to be all over things
and to drive performance and productivity.
You have to create the right team environment
where they feel safe.
Safe and supported.
So that when you're running too fast,
they can say, please, will you just slow down?
When you're doing something wrong, they can go,
we think you're doing it wrong.
That's right.
Yeah, and so there's got to be that groundwork done,
presumably in advance of you just coming in and.
Yeah, so for me, and starting with new teams
is the most important thing is to get to know
the people around you, get to know what drives people.
I do like to know about people.
I like to know about everything about them
to a certain extent.
We have a little bit of a joke, one of my team and I,
about whether I'm intrusive or not.
And actually, it came out in one of those really weird
quizzes that you do.
And I was like, that says I'm not intrusive.
Am I intrusive?
And he just raised his eyebrows at me.
And I was like, oh, and I felt really,
I mean, I really felt bad about it.
And then I reflected that actually that intrusiveness,
again, because there are negative connotations
to that word, actually what that means is
that's my desire to know and understand
what drives people, what makes them happy.
Because then it helps me spot if they're having an off day
or if they need support or if I need to step in
and try and give them a little bit of help,
that's really important to me.
And actually, that can be really difficult
in a work environment because you will come across people
who don't want to give any of that sort of thing
over to you.
And you have to respect that as well
because there are boundaries.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
But we had Professor Beverly Alamo Metcalfe on the podcast
and she was talking,
she did some groundbreaking research
about what we as recipients of leadership really need
to raise our productivity and motivation
and reduce our stress.
And she said of all the things she found,
there was like 14 different behaviors she found that we like,
the single most important one,
more important than all the others added together,
was showing genuine interest and concern.
Wow.
If you just do that as a leader,
then you're going to elevate your team
because if you know them and you show them
that you care about the things they care about,
well, they reciprocate an effort.
Yes.
But also they know you've got their backs
because you know that you care.
So if they're having a bad time,
they're not fretting about it over the weekend or at night,
they're coming to you.
Yes.
And so it's like a lovely quality
that you've just described
that she found in loads of research.
And I didn't know that.
Just lovely.
And that is lovely.
But again, for me, it's absolutely essential
to be like that.
And I suppose to me, it feels very natural.
And actually, if you go back to what we were saying before
about the time when I'd first had the children,
I don't necessarily think that there was anybody
in that environment who was caring about
what was going on in my personal life.
And had there been somebody to notice
and me not been having this facade,
it would have made my life easier.
And so I do go out of my way
to make sure that I do have people's backs.
And I know that my teams know and understand that about me.
Yeah.
And I think that point you made earlier
about if being a leader is about you,
if it's about your ego and that desire for power,
your status, then that's a bit of a danger zone, isn't it?
Sometimes people have said to me over the years,
oh, I just don't think management for me,
I don't really want, I'm not interested in the power
and I don't wanna go up the levels.
And I'm like, right, you are exactly the person then
that we need to be investing in.
Because if we can give you the skills,
then it's not gonna be about you,
it's going to be about them.
And hopefully that whole leadership philosophy
is moving and evolving and maturing
into something that I think the whole agenda
around diversity and inclusion
and our understanding of leadership's improving
as time goes on.
I did want to ask though,
so here you are with your beautiful bright hair
and your beautiful red nails
and your big vibrant energetic personality in HMRC,
which is somewhere that, I mean,
I might be being really stereotyping here,
but I would just think of being really sensible,
sensibly dressed, sensibly speaking kind of people.
So how has it been coming into this?
Do I just have the wrong impression?
Do you know what, actually, I have to say,
HMRC is full of diversity.
So I think probably those sorts of impressions
may well have been relevant a long time ago,
probably because tax always feels
like it's quite a dry subject.
I think if I'd have ever told younger me
that I'd be working for HMRC,
I'd have been like, no, don't do tax.
No, but it's a really good department
in terms of embracing that diversity.
So actually, some of those stark differences
that we've talked about, I feel them less now.
I think probably as a leader,
again, there's that expectation of what do leaders
and what do people with those titles look like.
I am always unapologetically me,
so I will make conscious decisions.
So say, for example, if I'm working from home,
I will never blur my background,
because actually, again, that is part of me,
and I don't want people to think
that they have to tone things down.
If you are capable and you are doing a good job,
you bring your whole self to work,
and it's you can be you,
because you create an environment for people
to be themselves, and they will be the best version
of themselves.
So I think it's less of a struggle than it always has been,
and I'm in a privileged position of where I can be me,
and actually more often than not,
I'm employed for being me now, which is nice.
That is nice, isn't it?
However, it does sound like you've always been you.
Yeah.
I think I can relate to what you're saying now.
In my 50s, I'm like, yeah, I'm unapologetic now
about this is me, I am what I am.
I can be a bit loud, I can be a bit excitable.
That's me.
However, I would have probably tried to hide all of that
in my younger years and felt the pressure
maybe to not be that.
So I just think it's really cool that you've always,
I mean, I just love the idea of you being a young person,
being asked to move because you didn't look like
you should be sitting there.
And of course you deserve to be sitting there,
because it's about what you can do,
not what you look like.
That 100%, it's literally about your ability.
And I think people talk a lot about imposter syndrome,
right, and obviously it's a commonly discussed subject.
It's something that I have always had.
So even with a big personality, I have always worried
about, oh, hang on, have I overstepped the mark?
How on earth have I found myself in this job?
If I think about when I was younger,
I would look at people who ran the most successful law firms
and I would hold them in absolute awe
because I used to think there must almost be something
magical about them.
They must be so much smarter and cleverer.
And actually, the more that you spend time
with those people, you realize there is no magic.
Actually, sometimes they've just put
the right people around them.
So it's recognizing that not everybody
has the answer to everything.
I mean, that's another thing that my dad did,
always used to say to me,
it was there's no such thing as can't, it won't.
And again, I think it's about just try,
stepping out of your comfort zone and actually just seeing,
can I do this?
If you'd have ever said to me, right,
you're going to have to go to a meeting with a law chancellor
and talk to them about legal aid.
Years ago, I'd have been like, I can't do that.
But actually at the time when that scenario
is presented to you because you are doing it for the right
reasons and you're championing something
that you feel really strongly about,
you're absolutely the right person to be going
and sitting down with a law chancellor
and saying, actually, these are my views
or this is my experience or this is the situation.
And that takes away any nerves in terms of the status
around those conversations, because that's another thing.
You don't be thrown by having conversations
with people who you perceive to have a status.
They're just people.
They're just people, yeah.
And building your own confidence up by reminding yourself
of either this is what I know, so I have a lot of knowledge
or the most knowledge about this topic,
or this is something I really believe in.
So I am going to bring this to life better than anyone else
because I'm really passionate about it.
And it's that self-talk, isn't it, inside your head?
I know in sports psychology, they do it a lot,
that whole idea that a sprinter will lose the race
before the gun goes off, because what they tell themselves
about, I haven't trained hard enough,
I'm not as fit as these people either side of me,
I feel a bit weird, what's wrong with my ankle?
And they start building up the pressure
and reducing down their confidence
while they're standing waiting to go.
And it's the same as any of us.
Your dad just basically encompassing the growth mindset
in one piece of 1970s or 80s kind of advice.
It's not can't, it won't.
Love it.
But that whole thing about, actually, no, I have trained,
I have worked hard, I do have experience,
there's no reason why I can't compete
with these other people,
there's no reason why I can't be in this room,
and talking yourself into that feeling more confident.
That's it.
Nobody is more special than anybody else.
No one individual is worth more than the next person.
You might just have had a different set of circumstances
in getting there.
And that is the whole thing around status and title.
No one's better, we're all humans.
And that's bringing us right back to the greed thing,
isn't it?
Because you're like, nobody's better.
No.
Nobody deserves more.
No.
Nobody deserves to get away with it.
That's it.
And I'm coming for you.
That's it.
We all rely on the NHS.
It needs funding.
In terms of advice for other career women out there
who might be maybe having a bit of imposter syndrome
or maybe they're at a point in their career
where they don't know if they can do it all,
any tips or advice for them?
Be you.
I think being true to yourself for me is really important.
I think being a nice human being is really important.
I think for me, if I'm ever remembered for anything,
I want to be remembered for being a decent human being,
for doing the right thing, for being motivated
by the right thing, for not trying to trample
on other people.
And I think it's showing other people that it is possible
to do all of those things.
You don't have to be doing other people down
to try and achieve a status or to try and achieve success.
And everybody's view of success is different.
I am fortunate to have a very good job
and I am fortunate enough to have a good title,
but that is less important for me
than the work that I'm doing and the purpose behind it.
And having that meaningful pursuit.
And that's the thing that struck me right from the beginning,
you wanted to make an impact on the world in some way.
And you wanted to dedicate your career to that.
And that's been a bit of a compass.
And then along the way, you've learned a little bit
about how to be a bit more resilient,
about how to maybe be a bit more open and vulnerable
to ask for help.
And then that leadership isn't about directing
from the front and doing it yourself.
It's about taking people with you, looking after them,
creating a lovely, safe environment.
Say, I'm not surprised you're winning awards.
Not surprised.
It's been absolutely fascinating, Zoe.
Really good to get under the surface of how you do,
the things that you do.
Brilliant.
My final question is,
if you could go back to your younger self,
and I suppose this is thinking of our daughters here
a little bit as well.
Going back to your younger self and just whispering her ear,
something that might make her journey a little bit easier.
What would you whisper in your own ear
if you could go back?
So I suppose the one thing for me
is I would just take more risks, just go for it.
Literally, what is the worst that can happen?
Try.
I love it.
That's brilliant.
What a wonderful thing to finish on.
Thank you so much, Zoe.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
In the next episode, I always said,
I was never treated differently for being a woman,
but I was for being Northern.
Yeah, it made me frustrated.
It made me sad because I'd already been in the Navy
for a period of time.
They'd made a judgment based on a postcode.
And I got there and they were like,
oh my God, you're okay, your accent's fine.
And I'm like, oh my goodness.