1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,600 Hi, I'm psychologist and author, Leona Deakin, 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:04,480 and welcome to Leadership Journeys, 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,360 the podcast where we delve into the minds 4 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,360 of inspirational women to find out what makes them tick. 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,360 Last week, we heard from Deborah Ogden, 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,800 who talked about how feeling like a failure 7 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,440 when she left her high-profile marketing career behind 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,000 to have her son, her really wanted son, 9 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,040 became the secret to her success 10 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,320 as a personal branding and impact expert. 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:31,600 Coming up on this episode... 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,400 I do worry about... I have always worried about 13 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,360 what people think of me, but not to the extent 14 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,440 I have wanted to change something about me. 15 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,440 So I would dye my hair. 16 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,000 I never wanted to be one of the popular girls. 17 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,320 I actually was quite happy just sitting in the middle being me, 18 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,080 but I've never changed anything about me 19 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,720 to suit a set of circumstances or to suit a job. 20 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,920 Can being your true self be the key to thriving 21 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,000 in a serious world such as criminal law? 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,160 Today, I am talking to a leader that I've had the pleasure 23 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,800 to witness working her leadership magic over recent years. 24 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,360 Zoe Gascoigne is the head of Offshore Corporate and Wealthy 25 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,640 in the Fraud Investigation Service at HMRC. 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,560 Ooh. 27 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,640 I'm feeling a little guilty just being in their building. 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,120 I haven't done anything wrong, I don't think, 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:27,960 but if I have, they'll find me. 30 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:32,200 Now, Zoe is a multi-award-winning and experienced lawyer 31 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,520 and a senior leader in criminal justice and financial crime. 32 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,560 In fact, in 2024, she was awarded Outstanding Manager 33 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,320 slash Director tackling economic crime. 34 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:44,160 Yes. 35 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,720 I mean, you need to get that on a badge or something, 36 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:47,560 I feel, Zoe. 37 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,120 Anyway, Zoe, welcome to the podcast. 38 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,240 So here you are at HMRC. 39 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,480 You are a lawyer. 40 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,880 You've worked with the Crown Prosecution Service, 41 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,200 which is where we first met. 42 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,040 It is, yes. 43 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,400 And now you've been here for a little while 44 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,480 and you've done some quite meaty cases, 45 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,080 which we'll talk about in a moment. 46 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,240 I just wanted to just ask to start with, 47 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,400 what's your current role? 48 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,200 What does it actually cover? 49 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,120 So although I am a qualified lawyer, 50 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,360 I'm actually not practicing as such as a lawyer at the moment 51 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,080 because I am basically, as you've said, 52 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,840 head of Offshore Corporate and Wealthy 53 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,480 within the Fraud Investigation Service. 54 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,160 And what that means is I lead a team of around 500 55 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,960 at the moment, civil and fraud investigators. 56 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,880 And we basically investigate tax fraud 57 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,800 in that offshore corporate and wealthy space. 58 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,720 So anything very high level, complicated, 59 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,320 large sums of money, and that's basically our jobs. 60 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,640 And just to give a bit of context to that, 61 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:47,720 we can't go into this for legal reasons, 62 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,240 but Zoe was head of the team that led the prosecution 63 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,760 and subsequent civil settlement of Bernie Eccleston. 64 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:55,600 Yeah, that's right. 65 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,640 So it's quite high profile, 66 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,440 tax avoidancy kind of behavior. 67 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:01,400 Nice and complex. 68 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,920 Cool, yeah. 69 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:06,800 Basically going after the criminals is a thing for you, 70 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:07,640 is it? 71 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:11,400 It is, and specifically for me in terms of economic crime. 72 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,680 So that kind of, the greed. 73 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,800 So actually people who really should just be paying 74 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,160 what they owe in the same way 75 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,720 that everybody else does in society, 76 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,120 but almost become more and more and more greedy. 77 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,560 So actually don't pay what is owed in respect of tax, 78 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,560 which we know is extremely important 79 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,560 because it funds all of the public services 80 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,200 that every single one of us relies on. 81 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,880 Yeah, so you're out there fighting that fight 82 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,240 and making them pay. 83 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,400 We were talking before and you said that 84 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,600 you're on a bit of a mission in your career. 85 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,280 So you have real purpose 86 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:47,720 to doing the things that you do, don't you? 87 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:48,560 Yeah. 88 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:49,680 So why law? 89 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Just tell me that. 90 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Why did law appeal particularly? 91 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,920 Can you remember that moment where it became intriguing? 92 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,000 So I don't think, do you know what? 93 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,240 I don't think there was a moment 94 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,960 because it was always, always criminal law. 95 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,680 From as early as I can remember, 96 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,800 I wanted to do criminal law 97 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,440 and my mom and dad had no idea where this had come from. 98 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,560 I didn't know any criminal lawyers. 99 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,280 I used to like reading things like Nancy Drew mysteries 100 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:15,760 and stuff like that. 101 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,760 I think I have an extremely strong sense of purpose 102 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,160 and I am driven by fairness. 103 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,360 I am driven by, I suppose to a certain extent, 104 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,960 standing up for people who perhaps can't do that themselves. 105 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,920 So I always knew that I wanted to do criminal law 106 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,480 that I never wavered, literally never wavered. 107 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,160 I was always going to do it. 108 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,960 I'm sort of imagining you as a young girl in your bedroom, 109 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,920 just doing like court cases with your teddy bears 110 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,320 or something like that. 111 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,400 The whole courtroom thing really, really fascinated me. 112 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,960 And I suppose to a certain extent, 113 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,000 the only choice that I ever really had to make, 114 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,440 consciously make, 115 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,000 was whether I was going to be a solicitor or a barrister. 116 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,680 And that came much later 117 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,440 because I always did have visions of myself 118 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:05,840 of being in a courtroom. 119 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:07,560 So I think I probably always thought 120 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,080 that I was going to be a barrister. 121 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,800 And I was always very interested in drama 122 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,360 and courtrooms can be quite theatrical. 123 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,480 But actually after doing work experience, 124 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,400 and I was fortunate enough when I was in school 125 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,800 to do work experience with two sets of barristers chambers. 126 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,800 But then I did work experience in a solicitor's office 127 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,320 and actually realized for me 128 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,640 that it was the contact with the people I really liked. 129 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,000 And I think as a solicitor, 130 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,320 you have more contact with people. 131 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,680 So I started my career defending in private practice. 132 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,480 So I was a criminal defense lawyer for 16 years, 133 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,800 which does cause some people to raise eyebrows 134 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,200 because it's one of those jobs 135 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,360 that some people will sort of like look at you and go, 136 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,640 well, how do you do that job? 137 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,080 How do you represent people that you know of being guilty? 138 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,880 And actually for me, number one, 139 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,000 everybody deserves representation. 140 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,520 And you don't represent people as being guilty 141 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:06,880 if you know that they're innocent. 142 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,680 Actually, there are people who do terrible things 143 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,320 or who terrible things happen to 144 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,560 that leads them down a path. 145 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,720 And actually they need somebody to put 146 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,680 what their backstory is or what's happened to them. 147 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,880 So, there's a lot by way of mitigation. 148 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,760 Equally on the other hand, 149 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,840 there are people who do get accused of things 150 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:27,080 that they haven't done 151 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,360 and they need people in their corner. 152 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,120 And they're the cases for me that in that part 153 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:33,880 of my career stood out. 154 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,320 So it was looking after taking care of representing people 155 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,600 who needed that voice to challenge 156 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,040 what was being said against them. 157 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,720 What was the experience like as a young woman 158 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,080 going into that world? 159 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,200 Hard, there weren't a huge amount 160 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,920 of female defense solicitors. 161 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:52,040 There was a number, 162 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,320 but men were definitely in the majority. 163 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,720 And in fact, when I did work experience in court, 164 00:06:58,720 --> 00:06:59,880 when I was at school, 165 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,920 women weren't even allowed to wear trousers. 166 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,920 So, you are talking of a time. 167 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,680 I don't like to think of myself as being that old. 168 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,240 And I suppose to a certain extent, me going into it, 169 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,200 especially as a young female, 170 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,760 it meant that you did sort of like stand out. 171 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,080 I've always dyed my hair. 172 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,520 I've always, I've never sort of like toned anything 173 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:23,480 like that down. 174 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,040 I've always worn makeup. 175 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,960 I can think back, there were two occasions 176 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,680 when I was in my twenties, 177 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,320 where I was asked to move in court 178 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,880 because the usher came over to me and said, 179 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,320 excuse me, you need to move. 180 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:36,600 And I would like pack my stuff up 181 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:37,760 and I would be like, oh, I'm sorry. 182 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,400 What, you know, why thinking, 183 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,680 maybe there was a leak in the ceiling. 184 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,640 And they'd say, that's where the solicitors sit. 185 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:44,480 Oh wow. 186 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:45,400 And I'd be like, right, 187 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:46,640 let's get everything back out again. 188 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,880 And I would just say, I am a solicitor. 189 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,480 And then another occasion actually, 190 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,240 where I'd gone to a magistrates court 191 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,400 and I'd seen the defendant in the cells. 192 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,240 It was a very male dominated courtroom. 193 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,960 And I came up into the court 194 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,000 and the magistrates asked 195 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,640 if they could have a word with the clerk. 196 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,600 And the clerk turned around and he said, 197 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,800 excuse me, Ms. Gascoigne, the magistrates want to know, 198 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,360 have you brought a practising certificate with you? 199 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,160 Wow. 200 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,760 And I just said, no, to be honest, 201 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,600 I think at the time I didn't know how to respond. 202 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:20,880 I don't know what their assumption was 203 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,160 that I'd maybe been cleaning the office 204 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,880 and nobody could find a solicitor. 205 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,640 So I'd put a suit on from the back of the door 206 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,080 and traipsed into court. 207 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:27,920 Thought I'll have a go at this. 208 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,120 Trying to pull a fast one. 209 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,440 It's those kinds of behaviours that you brush off, 210 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,560 but actually they're not right 211 00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:35,480 and they're not funny in any way. 212 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,040 As opposed to a certain extent, 213 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,720 if you were a different personality, 214 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:39,840 that would chip away at you 215 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,520 because it's about people's view of your appearance 216 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,920 as opposed to your ability. 217 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,640 And some people would stop dying their hair. 218 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,000 Yes, some people would stop dying their hair. 219 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:52,840 Not me. 220 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,960 Was that about being a female? 221 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,200 A young person? 222 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:58,720 I think it was about being a young female. 223 00:08:58,720 --> 00:08:59,560 A young female. 224 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:00,920 A young female, very much so. 225 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,280 Right, and then not looking like you were trying 226 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,560 to be more grown up. 227 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:06,520 Or more serious. 228 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:07,360 Or more serious. 229 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:08,200 Yes, yes. 230 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,080 But this was one of the reasons why I really wanted 231 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,840 to have you along on the podcast 232 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,720 because you are a very vibrant person. 233 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,480 My daughter, who's 11, is dying to see the pictures 234 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,320 of the lady with the red hair that I'm interviewing today. 235 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,800 But you always have been that, just you have been you. 236 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:23,640 Yes. 237 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,880 And I wanted to ask when that had started, 238 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,520 but you're saying right from the start, 239 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,360 right from early years. 240 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:30,200 Do you know what? 241 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,000 I think that started in secondary school because, 242 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,440 and it's funny now because I've got twin daughters 243 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,560 of my own, I have a son as well, and they're 13 now. 244 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,360 And I think in secondary school, I have the confidence, 245 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:44,720 and I don't know where it came from, 246 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,080 to never apologize for being me. 247 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:48,760 I do worry, I have always worried 248 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:49,680 about what people think of me, 249 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:51,880 but not to the extent I have wanted 250 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,960 to change something about me. 251 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,920 So I would dye my hair. 252 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,520 I never wanted to be one of the popular girls. 253 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,640 I actually was quite happy just sitting 254 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,920 in the middle being me and trying to be fair 255 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,360 and to be nice and to be kind. 256 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,120 But I've never changed anything about me 257 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,960 to suit a set of circumstances or to suit a job. 258 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,800 That's interesting, isn't it? 259 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,480 But you don't know where that came from. 260 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:18,320 No. 261 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:19,320 That's just something that's in your character, 262 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,000 maybe your family upbringing. 263 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,280 Yeah, who knows? 264 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:23,120 Who knows? 265 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:23,960 Who knows? 266 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,000 I mean, that's a psychologist's dream 267 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:25,840 to try and dig into that. 268 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,000 But it's maybe not the purpose of this podcast, is it? 269 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,480 You make me nervous, and I'll be over here. 270 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:32,520 So tell me about your childhood. 271 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,120 No, we won't go down that route. 272 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:35,840 So then there you are, you're a young woman. 273 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,120 So you're facing some things that it sounds like 274 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:39,720 on the face of it, you're brushing them off. 275 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,760 I think like a lot of people of our generation, 276 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,560 maybe when we look back now in hindsight, 277 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:46,200 think, oh my goodness, I can't believe I put up 278 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,920 with that kind of banter or that kind of behavior. 279 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,880 But at the time, that's how the world works. 280 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,520 So you didn't even notice it, did you? 281 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:54,360 No. 282 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:55,200 At the time. 283 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,320 And so as you're getting into your career, 284 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,520 did it become easier or were there more and more obstacles 285 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:02,440 as you went? 286 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,800 So I would say there was probably more and more obstacles. 287 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,120 And again, I think you've just almost hit the nail 288 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,240 on the head, because I think at the time, 289 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:14,240 you don't appreciate actually how wrong something is. 290 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,880 And you know, and I've never been afraid 291 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,920 to challenge anything. 292 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,520 I've probably made choices that I wouldn't make now 293 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,360 in terms of putting up with certain behaviors. 294 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,200 And actually, when I think back in terms of my career, 295 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,760 I have been treated quite badly on a number of occasions. 296 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,440 And I would say that that has probably been down 297 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,400 to being female. 298 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,360 I think probably the next hurdle that I faced 299 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,160 was having children. 300 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,320 Because again, when you are operating 301 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,920 in a male dominated environment, 302 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,240 you making a decision and there was never an issue for me 303 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:51,800 about whether I wanted children 304 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,120 or didn't always want children. 305 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,080 My first one didn't come naturally, he was IVF. 306 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,200 So again, I suppose that was a different challenge for me 307 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,120 because that was, I look back at myself then, 308 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,920 and I spent a lot of time trying to prove 309 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,240 that I could do everything and that nothing could change 310 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,720 and that no standards slipped, 311 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,120 instead of actually accepting 312 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,240 that life throws challenges at us. 313 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,640 And it's okay to go through those challenges. 314 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,960 You don't have to put on the brave face 315 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,000 and pretend that actually I can keep 316 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,720 all of these plates spinning 317 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,720 because at some point in time, 318 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,960 some of those plates are gonna drop. 319 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,800 And then I fell pregnant naturally with my twins, 320 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,480 who, well, I had a very difficult pregnancy with them, 321 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,280 had 20 twin transfusion syndrome. 322 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,480 But again, throughout all of that, 323 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,720 so again, my son, when I fell pregnant with them, 324 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,520 he was probably about 17 months old. 325 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,920 I was still working, well, four days a week, 326 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,880 but probably in reality five, 327 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,200 because I was just determined to stick to the standards 328 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:00,560 that I always had. 329 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:03,720 And I didn't want people to think that I couldn't do things. 330 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,560 So I over proved probably to the point 331 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,560 of coming very close to burnout, 332 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:12,400 I would say looking back now. 333 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,400 And that wasn't a particularly healthy time in my life, 334 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,400 but ultimately it brought about changes 335 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,600 because there was a time when actually I decided 336 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,440 I can't carry on like this and things have got to change. 337 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,000 Yeah, because I was going to ask, well, a couple of things. 338 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,880 One, where that pressure to almost keep up a facade 339 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:36,800 was coming from. 340 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,760 And the other was the impact it was having. 341 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,920 So the pressure, was that coming from within you? 342 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Was that something that you didn't want to let people down 343 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,000 or you didn't want people to think you couldn't do it? 344 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,440 Or was there an expectation externally 345 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,640 that you couldn't let your standards drop? 346 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,000 So there was a definite expectation externally 347 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,280 that then manifested itself. 348 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,480 It would be really difficult, I think, for me to unpick 349 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:02,480 which came first, because I think that I will always 350 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,800 still try and over prove myself. 351 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,000 I'm the best at giving advice to other people about, 352 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,840 don't do this, you've got to look after yourself. 353 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,520 You need to take time out. 354 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,520 I am the worst in the world for actually doing it. 355 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,440 So it would be difficult to unpick which came first. 356 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,080 There was that definite male dominated. 357 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:23,440 When you do criminal defense, 358 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,200 it's not a pretty area to work in. 359 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,920 You're working with the worst things that go on in society. 360 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,360 And actually, I suppose to a certain extent, 361 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,040 one of the personality types that that attracts 362 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,560 are tough people. 363 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,960 You're then faced with working alongside people 364 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,360 who are also tough and have high expectations 365 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:46,840 with almost no give. 366 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,240 So there's a kind of machismo to it 367 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,480 in terms of how it's done and the people it attracts 368 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,240 and then how they then subsequently behave. 369 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:55,080 I mean, there you are. 370 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,880 Not only have you got three children 371 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,640 under the age of three, which is crazy, twins, 372 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,320 and then both of the births had been challenging 373 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,200 and difficult, the pregnancy issues around that. 374 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,160 So a lot of stuff that some people would just, 375 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:11,720 that's all they'd be talking about 376 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,320 and thinking about and doing. 377 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,080 But you were also doing a full-time job 378 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,400 in a very gritty world and trying to pretend 379 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,240 that everything was fine. 380 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,120 That everything was fine. 381 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,640 I bet there's so many women that can relate to this. 382 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,920 But what was the impact of that on you? 383 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,360 Being constantly overwhelmed 384 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,120 and actually feeling a little bit anxious. 385 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,080 So I got to a stage where I would just feel anxious. 386 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,320 I couldn't enjoy things because I was constantly 387 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,560 almost like in a state of worry. 388 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,920 And I can remember actually the friend, 389 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,000 I remember driving to her house 390 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,560 because we were going out for a meal with another friend 391 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,560 and thinking, I don't want to go for a meal. 392 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,600 I can't be in this setting. 393 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,680 I don't know why. 394 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,160 And I picked her up and said, 395 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,040 I'm actually not going to come in for the meal. 396 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:56,880 And she said, why? 397 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,760 And I said, because that's something 398 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,120 that I just need to go and do. 399 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,600 I just couldn't face being in a lighthearted, 400 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,800 chit chatty, normal setting. 401 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,520 And I think it was at that point that I realized 402 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,360 something's just going to have to. 403 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:12,720 This just isn't right. 404 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,680 And it's probably physiologically, 405 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,880 just your fight and flight hormones are right high, aren't they? 406 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,440 And that cortisol and adrenaline, we were alert, 407 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,880 we're on it, we're no relaxation, no joy. 408 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,000 No. 409 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,840 So what did that teach you? 410 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,720 I mean, you said before, I'm good at giving the advice, 411 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:30,680 I'm not good at taking it. 412 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,200 So maybe it didn't teach you much. 413 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,200 But what did you learn from that in terms of what not to do 414 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,160 later or maybe what to do? 415 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,080 I learned to be open and honest with people 416 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,320 about how I feel. 417 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,320 So the one thing that I will always do, 418 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,720 if I am feeling, I always describe it 419 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,360 a sense of overwhelm. 420 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,680 I say out loud that that is how I'm feeling. 421 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,840 So I will say to my husband, 422 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,840 feeling a little bit overwhelmed and he kind of, 423 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,720 you know, will sort of like, knows, right, okay, that's fine. 424 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,880 It doesn't mean that anything necessarily has to change 425 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,520 or that he has to do anything. 426 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,640 I just need someone to know that that's how I feel. 427 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:12,800 And I will have to process it and deal with it. 428 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,720 But the fact that I have said it 429 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,960 and I am not pretending that everything is all right. 430 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,120 The conversation around mental health, 431 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:21,840 I will often be really honest. 432 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,480 So I'm the mental health sponsor in work. 433 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,560 And I will give people accounts of, you know, 434 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:28,520 things that have happened to me. 435 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,960 Because actually what I don't think it's healthy 436 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,280 is that people look at me and think 437 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,840 everything must be perfect 438 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,320 because it's not perfect for everybody. 439 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,400 And it is that, you know, 440 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,800 you don't know what's going on in people's lives. 441 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,800 So it is being mindful actually for me in my position, 442 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,840 showing of vulnerability is really important 443 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,760 for people who are going through difficulties 444 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,720 to say it is okay not to be okay. 445 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,080 So, so yeah. 446 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,720 And you're a vibrant person. 447 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,160 You know, you're colorful in personality 448 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,360 and in appearance, aren't you? 449 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,320 So it would be easy for people to look at that and think, 450 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:06,360 oh, Zoe is just great. 451 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:07,200 She's fine. 452 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,040 She's always happy. 453 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:08,880 She's got a lovely life. 454 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,840 She must have had a really easy ride. 455 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:11,680 That's it. 456 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,880 And then like you say, 457 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,480 particularly for maybe more junior members of the team 458 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,520 or more struggling members of the team 459 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,600 to show that vulnerability is, yeah. 460 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:21,440 It's really important. 461 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,280 It's really important. 462 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,120 Yeah. 463 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:23,960 My juggle is the same. 464 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:24,800 That's it. 465 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,560 My juggle is the same as everybody else's. 466 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,400 Yes. 467 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,000 And I think for me as well in particular, 468 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,120 it's showing that especially for women, 469 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,680 having children doesn't mean that you don't get to achieve 470 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,200 what you want to achieve. 471 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,720 And one of the things I have always thought is, 472 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,320 you know, actually when women have children 473 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,760 and this is something that I would love to be recognized, 474 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,600 they will probably be your most loyal and faithful assets 475 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,560 because they, you know, they want to be in the job. 476 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,040 They need that stability. 477 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,840 They've got enough going on in their lives 478 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,880 trying to raise children, which let's face it, 479 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,960 is hard enough, but they are an asset for employers 480 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,320 as opposed to a problem. 481 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,880 And so we get so much identity, don't we, from our jobs, 482 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,720 from our work. 483 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,000 It's like the second question at a party, isn't it? 484 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:12,840 Yeah. 485 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,680 What's your name? 486 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:14,520 What do you do? 487 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:15,360 And so I think you're right, 488 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,000 particularly when you have a baby, 489 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,080 your first probably is where you lose that sense of, 490 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,280 oh my goodness, who am I? 491 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,360 And that first period of time when you go back into work 492 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,600 after maternity leave, it's like revisiting the old you. 493 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,440 Yes. 494 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,880 There's something there about, oh, I remember who I am. 495 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:31,720 Yeah. 496 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:32,920 And so there is something there 497 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,360 that's really useful about that. 498 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,560 What would you do differently 499 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,600 if you were to go back and relive that? 500 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:41,720 Do you know what, that's really difficult 501 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,680 because one of the things that I always think is 502 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,480 if I changed anything, would I be the person that I am now? 503 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,920 What I would have done and the advice that I would give 504 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,680 to somebody in my position 505 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,720 is I would have been more open about it. 506 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:55,720 And I would have said, 507 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,120 actually, do you know what, this isn't okay. 508 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:03,120 Any expectation on me to carry on whilst everything is, 509 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,040 feels like it's crumbling behind me. 510 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,720 I had a period of time where, 511 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,480 when my twins were five months old, 512 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,800 they both developed bronchiolitis 513 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,880 and ended up in hospital on ventilators. 514 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,240 Even when they were still coming through that, 515 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,840 I was expected to go back to work 516 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,840 and just carry on as normal when, as you said, 517 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,680 I had the three children under three. 518 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,800 You make those decisions because a lot of it, 519 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,000 there's financial pressure because you need to keep your job. 520 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,000 But I think I probably would have taken better care of myself. 521 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,960 There's that really good bit of advice, isn't there, 522 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,200 about putting your own oxygen mask on first 523 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,000 in terms of I've never been very good 524 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,360 at putting myself first. 525 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:49,000 I'm still probably not that great at putting myself first 526 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,480 to make sure actually that I'm in the place 527 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,320 that means I can look after other people. 528 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,760 So I do, I think it's that, yeah, 529 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,400 put yourself first and do what you need to do for you. 530 00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:59,600 That's great advice. 531 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,480 And I think particularly with capable personalities, 532 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,480 it's very easy to fall into that trap of feeling 533 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,400 almost a pride in the fact that you're carrying on. 534 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,920 And actually, yeah, I can do this. 535 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,240 I can keep all these plates spinning until you can't. 536 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,880 There's a pride in that, isn't there? 537 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:17,880 And so- There is. 538 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,720 And you know what, that's very prevalent, 539 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,680 I think, in the legal sector. 540 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,040 And it depends on the sort of like the area of law 541 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,760 that people operate in, but it is very prevalent at this. 542 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,320 You have to show up at goodness knows what time. 543 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:32,960 There's people that will work through the clock, 544 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,200 whether it's in criminal defense, 545 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,840 because you're on call and going to police stations, 546 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:36,960 whether it's in the corporate world, 547 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,960 because you're turning contracts around really quickly. 548 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,280 But there's no pride in burnout. 549 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,000 And actually that does not make for happy 550 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,760 and capable employees. 551 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,200 You want people who are driven by the job 552 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,400 for the right reasons. 553 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,720 Yes. 554 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,800 Was that an impetus that I experienced 555 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,640 to doing different things with your career? 556 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,120 Did it have a practical impact 557 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:00,720 as well as a psychological impact? 558 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,720 Did you manage your career differently after that near burnout? 559 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,880 I suppose to a certain extent I did, 560 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,040 but my big change didn't come for about three years after. 561 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,400 Okay. 562 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,560 So I stayed in private practice for a little bit, 563 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,000 but then not long after I'd first had the girls, 564 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,320 there started to be a lot of noise around legal aid 565 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,160 and things like that. 566 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,240 And I started to, because I felt very passionate 567 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,960 about people who are less privileged 568 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,040 accessing the help that they need to, 569 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,680 one of those things being legal aid. 570 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,560 And I got involved with an association 571 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,160 called the Criminal Law Solicitor's Association, 572 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,720 which I very quickly became chair of. 573 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,520 It was a national association. 574 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:46,840 And I think it was probably that 575 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,320 that propelled my career in a different direction 576 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,840 because I started, I had more of a national profile 577 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,160 and I was, I suppose in a position 578 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,360 where I was speaking truth to power a lot 579 00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,880 in terms of the legal aid system 580 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,240 and how that was affecting real people. 581 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,120 That was an entirely voluntary post, 582 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,000 because of course you do take on voluntary posts 583 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:07,840 when you're working 584 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,680 and you've got three very young children. 585 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:10,800 That was a voluntary post, 586 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,200 but that put me in a position 587 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,360 where I was having meetings with various law chancellors, 588 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,120 not things that I had ever dreamed of doing, 589 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:19,280 but things that I did 590 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,560 because I was driven by that sense of purpose. 591 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,400 And then after about three years of doing that, 592 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,640 I saw a job that had been advertised 593 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,560 in the Crown Prosecution Service 594 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,960 to lead a specialist fraud team and my real driver, 595 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,080 thinking back to how I used to approach criminal law, 596 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,640 was the whole white collar crime, 597 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,560 as some people refer to it. 598 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,200 And so what's maybe not been made explicit 599 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,600 in that description is when you came 600 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,240 into the Crown Prosecution Service, 601 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,080 you came in in a leadership role, 602 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,760 senior leadership role there, leading a team. 603 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,160 And this is something I think that's differentiated you, 604 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,840 maybe from some of the other lawyers, isn't it? 605 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,720 Your leadership, your leadership staff. 606 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,560 Talk to us about leading people then. 607 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,920 What is it in that that lights you up and that you enjoy? 608 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,240 Because you do enjoy that, don't you? 609 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,080 I love it. 610 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:08,920 And do you know what? 611 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,040 It's really funny listening to you say that, 612 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,440 because when I came into this job, 613 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,160 there is a colleague who I work with now, 614 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,960 because I worked with HMRC when I was at the CPS. 615 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,160 And when I came into this job, 616 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,960 or when I was asked to consider coming into this job, 617 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,600 I said to one of my colleagues in HMRC, 618 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,080 I don't know, how could I do this job? 619 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,120 Because what would I bring? 620 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:31,960 I'm a lawyer. 621 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,080 And he just said to me, 622 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,800 mate, you're not a lawyer, you're a leader. 623 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,680 And I was like, oh, I'd never thought of myself 624 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,200 as a leader. 625 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,960 So the concept of becoming a leader as an identity 626 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,320 was a really strange one for me, 627 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,600 because I think any sort of like leadership 628 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,840 has always been a little bit of a, 629 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,680 that's just in me. 630 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,080 I think probably when I was younger, 631 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,720 people would have called me bossy. 632 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,400 I like to organize people, 633 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,560 and I'm quite happy sorting things out 634 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,360 and sort of like being in charge of things. 635 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:07,400 But for me now, I leading people, 636 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,000 that's my thing. 637 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,480 And actually developing people, bringing people on, 638 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,600 getting the best out of people, 639 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,120 getting people into the right roles. 640 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,080 I love all of that. 641 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,000 And I think that makes a difference then 642 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,720 to the people that you're managing, 643 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,800 because if you are enjoying organizing them, 644 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,360 maybe being bossy a bit, but organizing them, 645 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,080 but also helping them, supporting them, 646 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,880 developing them, targeting them, challenging them, 647 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,200 pushing them, all those things, you're enjoying that. 648 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,240 And not from a point of view of status 649 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,080 and power for yourself. 650 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,000 Absolutely not, no, no. 651 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800 For me, it's about creating environments 652 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,320 for people to thrive. 653 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,360 So I still love what I do. 654 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:49,840 I still love the purpose. 655 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,320 So that is really important to me. 656 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,480 But actually, there is only so much 657 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,200 that you can do on your own to get the multiplier effect. 658 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280 It's getting people into the right space 659 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,920 to drive the purpose. 660 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,920 So for me, creating the right work environments for people 661 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,480 is really, really, really important. 662 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,960 Being supportive, telling people 663 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,800 that it's okay to ask for help, 664 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,520 because the area that I worked in, 665 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:18,520 that I still work in now, 666 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,040 so if you think about being in the Crown Prosecution Service, 667 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,720 you're dealing with really high complex, 668 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,480 often very difficult areas of law, 669 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,560 where people are very well represented by, 670 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,640 the top QCs in the country. 671 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,960 I will often say to people, 672 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,400 I am not the smartest person in the world. 673 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,400 I will try really hard, 674 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,960 but these things have to be achievable. 675 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,000 You can't always assume that somebody else 676 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,760 is going to do the hard stuff and then just sit back. 677 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,920 And actually, if people are going to step up 678 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,280 and do the hard stuff, 679 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,800 the least that you can do is create an environment 680 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,000 that makes their time and their working there happy. 681 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,240 The way you lead, is this the way you were led? 682 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,320 Is that how you learned this? 683 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,160 No, I wouldn't say so, no. 684 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,320 I would say my leadership journey 685 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,760 has mainly involved how not to behave 686 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,800 and picking up things that don't work. 687 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,000 I think back at, I've had a number of different bosses 688 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,440 and managers over the years, 689 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,840 and they've all been very different, 690 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,600 some I've liked more than others. 691 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,520 I think it's actually picking the bits 692 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,480 that really don't work and thinking, 693 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,280 actually, that wasn't a very nice period of my life. 694 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,640 How do I make sure that nobody who is within my wider team 695 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,400 is ever exposed to those sorts of behaviors? 696 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,920 It's knowing and understanding what drives people. 697 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,640 So I think a lot of people that I have worked for 698 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520 sort of in the past and in the private sector, 699 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,440 I wouldn't necessarily have described them as being leaders 700 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,600 because they will be bosses or managers. 701 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,080 And I think sometimes bosses and managers 702 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,200 are motivated by ego and their own success 703 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,760 and their own ambition. 704 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,480 Whereas I think leaders are motivated by something 705 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,200 that is far wider in terms of bringing people along, 706 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,840 that sense of purpose. 707 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,440 So again, it's that saying there's no I in team 708 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,320 because actually as a leader, it isn't about you. 709 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,320 It's about the people that you are leading 710 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,160 and that's what's that for me is the really, 711 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,840 I suppose, important thing in terms of your leadership. 712 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,720 It isn't about you. 713 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Might be your name at the top, but it's not about you 714 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,200 because you're not doing all of the work. 715 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,680 I can't do all of the work 716 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,560 that the 500 people in my team do. 717 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,600 I can help to drive them. 718 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,280 I can help to support them. 719 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,720 On occasion, I will lead some of the stuff 720 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,800 because again, there's a lot in there around role modeling. 721 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,280 One of the things that my dad always taught me 722 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,200 when I was younger was you never ask anybody 723 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,240 to do something that you're not prepared to do yourself 724 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,240 and that is something that I've absolutely carried with me. 725 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,120 So I live by that with my team as well. 726 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,080 Yeah, I mean, there's showing that work ethic coming in 727 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,320 just from that one little quote from dad, isn't it? 728 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,920 It's just like roll your sleeves up, get involved 729 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,760 and don't be asking other people to do something 730 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,960 because you don't want to do it. 731 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,800 Absolutely. 732 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,640 Yes. 733 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,200 And you're in it with them. 734 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,040 That's right. 735 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:27,880 Yeah. 736 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,560 So those qualities in the bosses, as you described them, 737 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,400 I like that the difference 738 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,440 between the boss manager versus the leader, 739 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,440 those qualities in the bosses 740 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,760 that were having a negative impact. 741 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,920 Could you summarize those? 742 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,240 Like what are the kind of two or three things 743 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,200 that you've observed? 744 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,480 People get wrong? 745 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,280 No, I mean, I used to work for one person 746 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,520 who would call you into the office and say, 747 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,320 right, you show me where your name is on the letterhead 748 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,840 and then let's look where mine is. 749 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,840 So, you're talking about some really quite overt behaviors 750 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,360 in terms of I am more senior than you, 751 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,480 I am more important than you, you will defer to me. 752 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,400 And that's that whole dot, dot, dot, 753 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,840 my opinion matters therefore more than yours. 754 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,840 And when we look at that whole agenda around diversity 755 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,800 of voice and the fact that creativity 756 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,200 and improved problem solving and decision making 757 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,080 comes from a bit of constructive conflict 758 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,240 and people feeling comfortable to speak up and speak out. 759 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,760 You know, in a medical community, it can save lives. 760 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:36,600 That's right. 761 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,800 When people are happy to speak up and go, 762 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,000 sorry, I think we're about to make a mistake. 763 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,240 If that junior member of the team stands back, 764 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,280 people can die. 765 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,120 Absolutely. 766 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,880 You know, all of these things going on 767 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,280 and actually to have that status conscious thing 768 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,600 very overtly played out as an inhibitor, isn't it? 769 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,040 100% because it's crushing, 770 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,000 because actually not only are you crushing an individual, 771 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,360 but you are crushing their capability. 772 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,240 And actually when you think about it, as a leader, 773 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,640 I want to lead people who are better than me. 774 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,680 You know, and that's the thing 775 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,200 because you've given those examples there, 776 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,840 not one person has the answer to everything. 777 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,720 Just because you have achieved a certain status 778 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,280 does not make you better than the next person. 779 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,760 It doesn't automatically mean that you know 780 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,840 all the answers to everything. 781 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,560 It puts you in a position of privilege 782 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,400 where you should be drawing out the capabilities 783 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,760 and the abilities of other people in your team. 784 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,160 And your job is spotting that and nurturing it, 785 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,040 not crushing it. 786 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,160 And I've noticed over my career, 787 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,760 one of the things I've noticed that when psychologists 788 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,240 such as myself are pulled into an organization, 789 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,000 a leader will be saying, you know, 790 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,080 I've got a whole group of people here that just aren't, 791 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,560 and then words like proactive or showing any initiative 792 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,560 or self-motivated, things like that will come out. 793 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,840 And the kind of request is almost like, 794 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,520 can you come and Daren Brown them? 795 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,080 You know, can you just sprinkle some psychological magic 796 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,880 and make them all a bit more umphy? 797 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,160 And there's a standard question from my profession, 798 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,520 which is, okay, so let's say you've got 10 people 799 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,520 in your team, how many out of the 10 are behaving that way? 800 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,800 Because if you say to me two or three, 801 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,760 then that's probably down to them. 802 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,520 You know, maybe it's their character, 803 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,080 maybe they're in the wrong job, 804 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,240 maybe there's things going on in their personal life 805 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,520 that mean they can't be there 100%. 806 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,160 That's probably about them. 807 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,200 But if you're saying to me seven to eight 808 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,000 of the people in your team out of this group of 10 809 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,600 are behaving this way, 810 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,240 that's something you're doing to them. 811 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,560 As a culture, as a leader. 812 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,920 And that for me is the cultural issue. 813 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,080 And that's where you need to change the culture. 814 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,120 It's like, for example, 815 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,600 when you think about performance management, 816 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,080 that's a tough conversation that nobody ever wants to have. 817 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,560 But actually you flip that on its head. 818 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,840 Performance management can be a really constructive thing 819 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,320 because actually done properly, 820 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,360 what it should enable you to do 821 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,080 is get to the heart of the reason as to, 822 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,520 why isn't that person performing? 823 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,640 Is it because they're not capable? 824 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,560 Is it because they're in the wrong job? 825 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,520 Is it because they don't feel supported? 826 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,760 Is it because they don't have the tools? 827 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,280 Again, they're conversations that people need to turn 828 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,720 on their heads in terms of, 829 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,680 performance management shouldn't be seen as a punishment. 830 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,680 Because there aren't very many people, if any, 831 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,480 who turn up to work to do a bad job. 832 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,760 Because we spend the biggest proportion of our lives in work 833 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,640 and it's too short to be miserable 834 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,200 in a job that you're doing. 835 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,560 So actually, if you're unhappy, why is that? 836 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,880 And what I'm hearing from you is that you see 837 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,320 that your role as a leader is being a bit 838 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,480 of a performance detective. 839 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,000 So trying to find out why is that person not 840 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,200 as happy as they could be or as productive as they could be 841 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,480 or as involved in the team as they could be. 842 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,320 And actually showing enough interest to try 843 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,040 and solve that puzzle with them. 844 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,400 And I think, yes. 845 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,800 So one of my drivers, and it's taken me a little while 846 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,560 to realize this in terms of people is, 847 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,560 I quite like getting sort of teams, 848 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,400 you know, running as they should be. 849 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,520 So turning performance around in a team culture, 850 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,440 that is not an easy thing to do. 851 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,920 And it's funny because recently, 852 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,640 somebody in my own team described me as a legacy leader 853 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,320 because they said, they feel that their perception of me 854 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,040 is I'm the kind of person who comes in 855 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,680 and will have all the difficult conversations, 856 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,400 will try and deal with all the difficult stuff. 857 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,320 But doesn't do it on the basis of, 858 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,880 I'll necessarily be there to reap the rewards 859 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,720 because what I am trying to create is a legacy 860 00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:52,760 of teams who are high performing 861 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,800 and therefore getting the results that they need 862 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,120 and that they deserve. 863 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,440 Again, because your purpose is this team has to perform 864 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,440 and do the things that you feel 865 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,120 they should be doing for society. 866 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000 Yes, yes. 867 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,520 I mean, I can hear like an honesty thread 868 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,160 running through the things that you're saying 869 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,280 because you were saying the things that you learned 870 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,920 about yourself in terms of becoming overly stressed 871 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,560 towards burnout was I should have been more honest. 872 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,440 I should have been more open. 873 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,040 Maybe I should have spoken to my family more. 874 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,160 Maybe I should have said enough to my bosses more. 875 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,120 I should have been a bit more open. 876 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,080 And then in this conversation now, 877 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,120 you're talking about actually there's a real power 878 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,000 in just telling the truth of what you're seeing. 879 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,680 I see that you're maybe not as happy as you could be 880 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,480 or I see that you're not having the impact 881 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,000 that I'd want you to and there's a bravery to that. 882 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,560 Yeah. Honesty, isn't there? 883 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:46,400 There is. 884 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,520 And I suppose, yes, there is. 885 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:49,720 There definitely is. 886 00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,080 And the one thing that I will always try and do 887 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,520 is be honest because it's not fair to people if you're not. 888 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,320 That's sometimes difficult 889 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,600 because sometimes people may not want to hear it, 890 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,720 but actually your responsibility is trying to make sure 891 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:07,680 that some of those messages land in the right way. 892 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,880 But I think it's really important as a leader 893 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,960 to be honest because if you're not honest, 894 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,080 how can people trust you? 895 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,040 What I'm hearing from you is to enable yourself 896 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,720 to be a bit of a control freak, to be all over things 897 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,640 and to drive performance and productivity. 898 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520 You have to create the right team environment 899 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,600 where they feel safe. 900 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,400 Safe and supported. 901 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,160 So that when you're running too fast, 902 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,280 they can say, please, will you just slow down? 903 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,840 When you're doing something wrong, they can go, 904 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:36,680 we think you're doing it wrong. 905 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,520 That's right. 906 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,400 Yeah, and so there's got to be that groundwork done, 907 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,800 presumably in advance of you just coming in and. 908 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,560 Yeah, so for me, and starting with new teams 909 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,560 is the most important thing is to get to know 910 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,240 the people around you, get to know what drives people. 911 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:56,280 I do like to know about people. 912 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,080 I like to know about everything about them 913 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,320 to a certain extent. 914 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,960 We have a little bit of a joke, one of my team and I, 915 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,560 about whether I'm intrusive or not. 916 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,040 And actually, it came out in one of those really weird 917 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:08,880 quizzes that you do. 918 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,200 And I was like, that says I'm not intrusive. 919 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,240 Am I intrusive? 920 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:16,160 And he just raised his eyebrows at me. 921 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,560 And I was like, oh, and I felt really, 922 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,840 I mean, I really felt bad about it. 923 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,480 And then I reflected that actually that intrusiveness, 924 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,640 again, because there are negative connotations 925 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,400 to that word, actually what that means is 926 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,600 that's my desire to know and understand 927 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,160 what drives people, what makes them happy. 928 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,800 Because then it helps me spot if they're having an off day 929 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,720 or if they need support or if I need to step in 930 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:44,600 and try and give them a little bit of help, 931 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,480 that's really important to me. 932 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,800 And actually, that can be really difficult 933 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,760 in a work environment because you will come across people 934 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,520 who don't want to give any of that sort of thing 935 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:55,520 over to you. 936 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:56,840 And you have to respect that as well 937 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,800 because there are boundaries. 938 00:37:58,800 --> 00:37:59,920 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 939 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,560 But we had Professor Beverly Alamo Metcalfe on the podcast 940 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,000 and she was talking, 941 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,080 she did some groundbreaking research 942 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,200 about what we as recipients of leadership really need 943 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,320 to raise our productivity and motivation 944 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,680 and reduce our stress. 945 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,520 And she said of all the things she found, 946 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,920 there was like 14 different behaviors she found that we like, 947 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,760 the single most important one, 948 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,040 more important than all the others added together, 949 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,640 was showing genuine interest and concern. 950 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:27,480 Wow. 951 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,880 If you just do that as a leader, 952 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,680 then you're going to elevate your team 953 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,240 because if you know them and you show them 954 00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:37,920 that you care about the things they care about, 955 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,760 well, they reciprocate an effort. 956 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:40,960 Yes. 957 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,920 But also they know you've got their backs 958 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,920 because you know that you care. 959 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,080 So if they're having a bad time, 960 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,840 they're not fretting about it over the weekend or at night, 961 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:49,680 they're coming to you. 962 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,520 Yes. 963 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,840 And so it's like a lovely quality 964 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,120 that you've just described 965 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,840 that she found in loads of research. 966 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:57,680 And I didn't know that. 967 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:58,520 Just lovely. 968 00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:59,680 And that is lovely. 969 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,480 But again, for me, it's absolutely essential 970 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:04,760 to be like that. 971 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,080 And I suppose to me, it feels very natural. 972 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,520 And actually, if you go back to what we were saying before 973 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,520 about the time when I'd first had the children, 974 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,560 I don't necessarily think that there was anybody 975 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,840 in that environment who was caring about 976 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,720 what was going on in my personal life. 977 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:25,640 And had there been somebody to notice 978 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,600 and me not been having this facade, 979 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,440 it would have made my life easier. 980 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,120 And so I do go out of my way 981 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,240 to make sure that I do have people's backs. 982 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:40,960 And I know that my teams know and understand that about me. 983 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:41,800 Yeah. 984 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,160 And I think that point you made earlier 985 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,120 about if being a leader is about you, 986 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,360 if it's about your ego and that desire for power, 987 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520 your status, then that's a bit of a danger zone, isn't it? 988 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,200 Sometimes people have said to me over the years, 989 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640 oh, I just don't think management for me, 990 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,480 I don't really want, I'm not interested in the power 991 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,240 and I don't wanna go up the levels. 992 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,800 And I'm like, right, you are exactly the person then 993 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,480 that we need to be investing in. 994 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000 Because if we can give you the skills, 995 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,200 then it's not gonna be about you, 996 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,360 it's going to be about them. 997 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,120 And hopefully that whole leadership philosophy 998 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,480 is moving and evolving and maturing 999 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,040 into something that I think the whole agenda 1000 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,560 around diversity and inclusion 1001 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,040 and our understanding of leadership's improving 1002 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,080 as time goes on. 1003 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,200 I did want to ask though, 1004 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,400 so here you are with your beautiful bright hair 1005 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:33,560 and your beautiful red nails 1006 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,560 and your big vibrant energetic personality in HMRC, 1007 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,320 which is somewhere that, I mean, 1008 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:42,880 I might be being really stereotyping here, 1009 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,520 but I would just think of being really sensible, 1010 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,360 sensibly dressed, sensibly speaking kind of people. 1011 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,080 So how has it been coming into this? 1012 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,560 Do I just have the wrong impression? 1013 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,520 Do you know what, actually, I have to say, 1014 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,680 HMRC is full of diversity. 1015 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,360 So I think probably those sorts of impressions 1016 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,720 may well have been relevant a long time ago, 1017 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,640 probably because tax always feels 1018 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,040 like it's quite a dry subject. 1019 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,960 I think if I'd have ever told younger me 1020 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,400 that I'd be working for HMRC, 1021 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,560 I'd have been like, no, don't do tax. 1022 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,360 No, but it's a really good department 1023 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,160 in terms of embracing that diversity. 1024 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,400 So actually, some of those stark differences 1025 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,480 that we've talked about, I feel them less now. 1026 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,840 I think probably as a leader, 1027 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,320 again, there's that expectation of what do leaders 1028 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,640 and what do people with those titles look like. 1029 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,520 I am always unapologetically me, 1030 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,680 so I will make conscious decisions. 1031 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,560 So say, for example, if I'm working from home, 1032 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,320 I will never blur my background, 1033 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,880 because actually, again, that is part of me, 1034 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,960 and I don't want people to think 1035 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,600 that they have to tone things down. 1036 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,760 If you are capable and you are doing a good job, 1037 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,760 you bring your whole self to work, 1038 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,400 and it's you can be you, 1039 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,560 because you create an environment for people 1040 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,920 to be themselves, and they will be the best version 1041 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,240 of themselves. 1042 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:19,160 So I think it's less of a struggle than it always has been, 1043 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,720 and I'm in a privileged position of where I can be me, 1044 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:24,240 and actually more often than not, 1045 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:28,160 I'm employed for being me now, which is nice. 1046 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,160 That is nice, isn't it? 1047 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,600 However, it does sound like you've always been you. 1048 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:32,440 Yeah. 1049 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,160 I think I can relate to what you're saying now. 1050 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,160 In my 50s, I'm like, yeah, I'm unapologetic now 1051 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:40,880 about this is me, I am what I am. 1052 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,920 I can be a bit loud, I can be a bit excitable. 1053 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,040 That's me. 1054 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,600 However, I would have probably tried to hide all of that 1055 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,240 in my younger years and felt the pressure 1056 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:53,120 maybe to not be that. 1057 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,800 So I just think it's really cool that you've always, 1058 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,360 I mean, I just love the idea of you being a young person, 1059 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,160 being asked to move because you didn't look like 1060 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,200 you should be sitting there. 1061 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,440 And of course you deserve to be sitting there, 1062 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,480 because it's about what you can do, 1063 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:07,840 not what you look like. 1064 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,760 That 100%, it's literally about your ability. 1065 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,080 And I think people talk a lot about imposter syndrome, 1066 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,240 right, and obviously it's a commonly discussed subject. 1067 00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,800 It's something that I have always had. 1068 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,800 So even with a big personality, I have always worried 1069 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,600 about, oh, hang on, have I overstepped the mark? 1070 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,480 How on earth have I found myself in this job? 1071 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,040 If I think about when I was younger, 1072 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,840 I would look at people who ran the most successful law firms 1073 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,320 and I would hold them in absolute awe 1074 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,200 because I used to think there must almost be something 1075 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,120 magical about them. 1076 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,760 They must be so much smarter and cleverer. 1077 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,000 And actually, the more that you spend time 1078 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,800 with those people, you realize there is no magic. 1079 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,520 Actually, sometimes they've just put 1080 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,760 the right people around them. 1081 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,080 So it's recognizing that not everybody 1082 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,520 has the answer to everything. 1083 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,120 I mean, that's another thing that my dad did, 1084 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,200 always used to say to me, 1085 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,560 it was there's no such thing as can't, it won't. 1086 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,600 And again, I think it's about just try, 1087 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,120 stepping out of your comfort zone and actually just seeing, 1088 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:23,960 can I do this? 1089 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,360 If you'd have ever said to me, right, 1090 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,320 you're going to have to go to a meeting with a law chancellor 1091 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:28,960 and talk to them about legal aid. 1092 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,920 Years ago, I'd have been like, I can't do that. 1093 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,920 But actually at the time when that scenario 1094 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,480 is presented to you because you are doing it for the right 1095 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,040 reasons and you're championing something 1096 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,640 that you feel really strongly about, 1097 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,560 you're absolutely the right person to be going 1098 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,600 and sitting down with a law chancellor 1099 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,560 and saying, actually, these are my views 1100 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,400 or this is my experience or this is the situation. 1101 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,840 And that takes away any nerves in terms of the status 1102 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,400 around those conversations, because that's another thing. 1103 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,680 You don't be thrown by having conversations 1104 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,680 with people who you perceive to have a status. 1105 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:10,760 They're just people. 1106 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,120 They're just people, yeah. 1107 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,680 And building your own confidence up by reminding yourself 1108 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,320 of either this is what I know, so I have a lot of knowledge 1109 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,080 or the most knowledge about this topic, 1110 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,520 or this is something I really believe in. 1111 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,080 So I am going to bring this to life better than anyone else 1112 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,960 because I'm really passionate about it. 1113 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,120 And it's that self-talk, isn't it, inside your head? 1114 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,440 I know in sports psychology, they do it a lot, 1115 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,800 that whole idea that a sprinter will lose the race 1116 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,920 before the gun goes off, because what they tell themselves 1117 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,040 about, I haven't trained hard enough, 1118 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,400 I'm not as fit as these people either side of me, 1119 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,480 I feel a bit weird, what's wrong with my ankle? 1120 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,760 And they start building up the pressure 1121 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,320 and reducing down their confidence 1122 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,920 while they're standing waiting to go. 1123 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,760 And it's the same as any of us. 1124 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,160 Your dad just basically encompassing the growth mindset 1125 00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,160 in one piece of 1970s or 80s kind of advice. 1126 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,400 It's not can't, it won't. 1127 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,240 Love it. 1128 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:05,080 Love it. 1129 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,640 But that whole thing about, actually, no, I have trained, 1130 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,280 I have worked hard, I do have experience, 1131 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:11,960 there's no reason why I can't compete 1132 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,120 with these other people, 1133 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,720 there's no reason why I can't be in this room, 1134 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:19,760 and talking yourself into that feeling more confident. 1135 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:20,580 That's it. 1136 00:46:20,580 --> 00:46:22,600 Nobody is more special than anybody else. 1137 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,480 No one individual is worth more than the next person. 1138 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,600 You might just have had a different set of circumstances 1139 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:31,840 in getting there. 1140 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,640 And that is the whole thing around status and title. 1141 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,520 No one's better, we're all humans. 1142 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,920 And that's bringing us right back to the greed thing, 1143 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:43,760 isn't it? 1144 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,120 Because you're like, nobody's better. 1145 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:45,960 No. 1146 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:46,800 Nobody deserves more. 1147 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:47,620 No. 1148 00:46:47,620 --> 00:46:48,600 Nobody deserves to get away with it. 1149 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:49,440 That's it. 1150 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:50,280 And I'm coming for you. 1151 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:51,560 That's it. 1152 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,440 We all rely on the NHS. 1153 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:54,720 It needs funding. 1154 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:58,680 In terms of advice for other career women out there 1155 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,960 who might be maybe having a bit of imposter syndrome 1156 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,680 or maybe they're at a point in their career 1157 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,120 where they don't know if they can do it all, 1158 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,200 any tips or advice for them? 1159 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,200 Be you. 1160 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,560 I think being true to yourself for me is really important. 1161 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:18,480 I think being a nice human being is really important. 1162 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,040 I think for me, if I'm ever remembered for anything, 1163 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,680 I want to be remembered for being a decent human being, 1164 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,720 for doing the right thing, for being motivated 1165 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,560 by the right thing, for not trying to trample 1166 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:32,920 on other people. 1167 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,760 And I think it's showing other people that it is possible 1168 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,800 to do all of those things. 1169 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,760 You don't have to be doing other people down 1170 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,480 to try and achieve a status or to try and achieve success. 1171 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:53,480 And everybody's view of success is different. 1172 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,120 I am fortunate to have a very good job 1173 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,880 and I am fortunate enough to have a good title, 1174 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,200 but that is less important for me 1175 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,120 than the work that I'm doing and the purpose behind it. 1176 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,520 And having that meaningful pursuit. 1177 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,120 And that's the thing that struck me right from the beginning, 1178 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,520 you wanted to make an impact on the world in some way. 1179 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,200 And you wanted to dedicate your career to that. 1180 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,680 And that's been a bit of a compass. 1181 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,640 And then along the way, you've learned a little bit 1182 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,640 about how to be a bit more resilient, 1183 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,760 about how to maybe be a bit more open and vulnerable 1184 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:28,920 to ask for help. 1185 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,680 And then that leadership isn't about directing 1186 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,240 from the front and doing it yourself. 1187 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:42,200 It's about taking people with you, looking after them, 1188 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,840 creating a lovely, safe environment. 1189 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,040 Say, I'm not surprised you're winning awards. 1190 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:49,320 Not surprised. 1191 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,920 It's been absolutely fascinating, Zoe. 1192 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,120 Really good to get under the surface of how you do, 1193 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:55,160 the things that you do. 1194 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:56,000 Brilliant. 1195 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,720 My final question is, 1196 00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:59,720 if you could go back to your younger self, 1197 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:01,600 and I suppose this is thinking of our daughters here 1198 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,440 a little bit as well. 1199 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,120 Going back to your younger self and just whispering her ear, 1200 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,480 something that might make her journey a little bit easier. 1201 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,000 What would you whisper in your own ear 1202 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,320 if you could go back? 1203 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,120 So I suppose the one thing for me 1204 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,720 is I would just take more risks, just go for it. 1205 00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:21,680 Literally, what is the worst that can happen? 1206 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,240 Try. 1207 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:24,080 I love it. 1208 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:24,920 That's brilliant. 1209 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,280 What a wonderful thing to finish on. 1210 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,400 Thank you so much, Zoe. 1211 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:28,880 It's been an absolute pleasure. 1212 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,440 In the next episode, I always said, 1213 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,200 I was never treated differently for being a woman, 1214 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,720 but I was for being Northern. 1215 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:38,120 Yeah, it made me frustrated. 1216 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,720 It made me sad because I'd already been in the Navy 1217 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:42,160 for a period of time. 1218 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,680 They'd made a judgment based on a postcode. 1219 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,520 And I got there and they were like, 1220 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,320 oh my God, you're okay, your accent's fine. 1221 00:49:49,320 --> 00:50:16,960 And I'm like, oh my goodness.