Welcome to Leadership Journeys. I'm psychologist Leona Deakin and I'm delving into the minds of successful women to find out how they've achieved the things that they have.
Last week we heard from Rehana Asabash about how entering traditionally male-dominated environments like the used car industry as a female can really give you an edge.
Coming up in this episode...
I had my son and I had a real identity crisis and I can remember sitting on this church hall floor singing Dingley, Dangley, Scarecrow and I thought if I look around this circle I bet they don't even know my name, they just know me as Oscar's mummy.
And all of a sudden you are just a mum and I felt such a failure and it was at that point I thought I'm going to set up, so I trained as a coach and I set up the business.
Can feeling like a failure be the secret to your success?
Today I am talking to personal branding and impact coach Deborah Ogden. I'm very excited about this. So Deborah is a business owner. She has over 20 years experience on brand. She actually started out as a lawyer, then moved into helping professional sports people to get sponsorship deals, so that sounds very cool.
And now she helps all kinds of leaders and professionals to have more confidence, more presence, more gravitas and essentially to be you at your best, which I love. I think this has so much relevance to women in any kind of career.
So I'm really interested to hear not only Deborah's story today, but also how she thinks women can ensure they're having the strongest impact while also staying true to themselves in male dominated environments. So that'll be a cool thing to explore. So welcome Deborah.
It's so good to be on the podcast. Thank you.
That's okay. So I wanted to start out. I mean, I just mentioned there that you were a lawyer, but I wanted to start out by just reflecting back to you as maybe late teens, early 20s. So what were your ideas about where your career was going to go? What it was going to end up being?
I think I'm most excited about this conversation today because it's the influences we have from an early age, isn't it? I've reflected more this year. I lost my dad this year, and he has probably been the biggest influence in my life.
And I was very blessed that I had a dad that brought me up and a mum that I could do anything. And maybe it started at a very early age when he told the nurses on the ward that I was going to play football for Manchester United.
He was a little disappointed when out popped a little girl. But so I was always told that I could do anything. And that is something that has been with me throughout my life, throughout my career.
And I think I've reflected on that more this last six months and reminded myself off, re-reminded myself of that to take that with me as I go forward. So I was always, I went to an all girls school and we were always expected to perform and do well.
I come from a family where we're incredibly competitive. So I have a younger brother as well. We've always watched football, cricket, played on the beach. There was none of this, the taking part. You were always in it to win it.
My poor son's been brought up in that way as well. I think I've always pushed myself to achieve and the school that I was at, you know, you went on to be a lawyer or you went on to be a doctor or actually I, even though I did go on and train as a lawyer, qualify as a lawyer, I knew quite quickly that it wasn't for me.
And I was never going to be the person that was a commercial corporate lawyer. Intellectually that just didn't fit with me. My strength is people and connection and building relationships.
So I naturally went into the more high street family law, criminal law, because there was so much more criminal law in those days in high street firms.
And even though I enjoyed it when I was there and I can remember having a gift for getting clients to talk, I still knew it. I wasn't in the right place. Just by chance, I went working for a management consultants and I was working in their employment law team and I picked up a copy of Marketing Week.
It was just on the side. We had a marketing consultant and I thought, wow, what's this? And I didn't really know what marketing was. And I used to pick up this Marketing Week. I think I used to sneak it away before the consultant picked it up each week and take it home and read it.
And that opened up a whole new area for me. Yeah, so a competitive environment at home is making me laugh actually because I had to tell my husband off because he kept winning Cluedo with our three children.
But it was a family Cluedo. So it was four children and I had to take him to one side to say, you know, this is a game for children. But he's like, no, we need to teach them that if they can't beat me.
So we had quite a different. You obviously go up in that environment where you were in it to win it. Competitive parents, competitive siblings, all that good stuff. And that being about going out in the world and achieving something and doing it well.
So there's obviously that coming through there. So just jumping to where you are now, because obviously that's quite different. So you saw the marketing world and thought that looks kind of a bit more exciting, maybe a bit more sexy than this law that I'm doing.
So that obviously took you off on a little exploration of that. The personal branding space, though, was that something where you identified there was a bit of a gap there?
Did you look around and think, well, people are not branding themselves right? Or was it more of a personal thing where you did it for yourself first? How did that come about?
At that time, my son's 17 now. I had my son and I had a real identity crisis. So without going too much into it, it was a real real journey to have Oscar. I had a number of miscarriages and it was a really quite traumatic time.
So he was such a wanted little boy. And after about two years, I just had lost my identity. And I can remember sitting on this church hall floor singing Dingley, Darkly, Scarecrow.
And I thought, if I look around this circle, I bet they don't even know my name. They just know me as Oscar's mummy.
So I went along to the doctors and they said, I think you should have some counselling. You are absolutely a prime candidate for postnatal depression, depression because you're intelligent, much wanted child.
You've always been in control. You've had very high profile roles. Your identity is very much part of who you are. And all of a sudden, you are, you know, this mum. Just a mum.
The most sought after role I'd ever wanted. But and I felt such a failure. Oh, I feel a little bit wobbly.
And I realised in that moment during the counselling that the identity piece was huge for me. And one of my values is recognition.
And I was just missing something somewhere. And it was in those counselling sessions. I thought, wait a minute, if I'm feeling like this, there are going to be other women feeling like this.
And there are going to be other people feeling like this. That identity piece when we have a life changing moment, whether it's becoming a mum, whether it's through grief, whether it's through redundancy, whatever it may be, we all have these moments.
And it was at that point I thought I'm going to set up. So I trained as a coach and I set up the business. Now nobody called it personal branding in those days.
But I realised I think everybody thought I would set up a PR comms agency. But I knew that I was going to need to have something that I really loved to make this business work.
And I thought back to that conversation about, Debra, you have this something. And that's where it came from. So that moment of OK, what is that something? That's my identity.
How can I clarify that and learn to communicate that and help other people do the same?
Yeah, absolutely. And so it wasn't called personal branding at that stage. So what did you go out into the market with? How was it badged?
So I called it Impact. OK. Yeah. So it's always been about impact. It's always been about impact. So it's always been maybe that's that competitive edge coming in.
Impact's a strong word, isn't it? But it was always about impact. I played with a few ideas, but that sat well.
And I resisted personal branding for quite a long time because I didn't want to be seen as somebody who was writing content on LinkedIn.
And I'm very clear even to this day that the important work around personal branding is that clarity piece and that identity piece.
Because long before you start posting on LinkedIn or social media or being on podcasts, you have to have absolute clarity on what that message is.
Absolutely. And what a what a journey to have gone through to go from sitting in a room with other mums thinking, oh, my gosh, I feel like a failure to launch in a business that not only helps redefine you, but does the same for other people.
That's lovely. But just going back to that moment of failure, why do you think you felt like a failure?
Was that career wise? And coming from that, you felt like, oh, now you were a mum, you'd lost that professional side of you? Or did you was it more generalized than that?
Where did that feeling come from? I think there were a number of things. I've realized that one of my values is absolutely recognition.
So and you know, you can look at ego in there. And but I like to be known and I'm a little bit uncomfortable saying that. But in my role at Old Trafford, I was media manager for many years there in a very in the spotlight.
I was the first professional media manager in the sport, which ruffled a few feathers. I think I was described in the Daily Telegraph as an expensive luxury. But people, people by mail, people soon followed suit.
And the appointment in that role meant that Lancashire's profile rose as well, the fact that they were taking the media and sponsorship seriously.
But I learned a lot in that environment, being a female in a male dominated. But you can imagine the testosterone you've worked in professional sport, the testosterone.
So that was a big success. You were getting that recognition and albeit you were being described as an expensive luxury. But let's face it, who doesn't like one of those?
We all love a bit of expensive luxury. But you were you made a bit of a name for yourself and you were having your own personal impact.
But you were also enabling that cricket club to have improved impact. And then we go to sitting in a room as a mum.
So was it the difference, do you think, between what you've been doing and then what you were doing?
So one of my other values is high standards, which comes from dad. Maybe the flip side of all that is that I needed to perform.
I needed to perform at the highest level. Is there a little bit of me that felt that I was a failed lawyer? Maybe. So I had to achieve in my area.
And maybe I didn't feel that I was achieving when I was a mum.
Those two factors, having a perfectionistic personality and a competitive childhood environment are the two C's for imposter syndrome.
Because we always feel like we're not being as good as we could be or we should be. And so we take that on as a judgment that the world is throwing back at us.
But actually, it's just a judgment that's inside our heads that we're throwing out at ourselves.
And I once read and it resonated so much that the definition of hell is to be sat in a room and shown a video of what your life could have been.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think so many women will be able to relate to that feeling of being the new mum, because I think so many of us, all of us probably really want to be a mum.
And I think that's something that is just such a wonderful life experience. I mean, we are sold a Disney version of it before we have children, I do believe.
You kind of imagine that you're going to be skipping through a park, holding hands, having cuddles at bedtime.
And then you have a baby. And particularly in that first 12 months, I think my experience was I have never been so scared and so bored at the same time.
Because similarly to you, I'd gone from a very busy job, quite high profile job, dealing with senior people, having an impact, to suddenly sitting in cafes or sitting in my own lounge with a baby, thinking all the books tell me I'm supposed to be able to tell what this cry means.
But I don't know what this cry means. But I've got to go through these routine things for the rest of the day. And it was a really jarring experience. And it was also reminding me, I've done quite a bit of work with Jeremy Snape, who's an ex England cricketer.
And he often talks, he's now retrained as a sports psychologist, he often talks about sports people die twice.
I've heard this before and it's so powerful. And it's so powerful, isn't it? But as you were talking then, I was like, oh, but also so do mums.
So there's a bit of a mini crisis there, isn't there, that you've had this version of yourself, especially if you have your children later in life, perhaps.
I was 38. Yeah, and I was 40. So you've had this version of your life, that's your identity. And identity is so important to us.
It gives us credibility in the world, gives us self-esteem, gives us something to say at a party. What's your name? What do you do?
And then all of a sudden, boom, and you drop off a cliff and you're into mumsville.
And we define ourselves as parents, but I've got enough people in my network, in my friendship group that haven't been blessed to become mums.
And they've really had to work on their identity and redefine. And then I've also got friends in my group that are, that choose not to be mums.
And I think as a society, we have a real issue around defining women as maybe failure because they're not mums.
And that's that presumably within the personal branding, that authenticity element of, well, I am who I am.
You know, I have some fabulous talents and I also have some flaws over here that, you know, I'm trying to improve and we're all trying to improve.
But you can't deny the fact that there are some things that we struggle with more as an individual or that are just our trigger points where we may be less patient than we'd like to be or less stress tolerant than we'd like to be.
And we can work on tweaking these things, but they're part and parcel of who we are, aren't they?
And I think what was really powerful and what you were saying there about women seeing themselves in the round.
So when I'm coaching people, I'll often talk about the pie or the pizza where you go, OK, so you're one slice of that is you at work in terms of your identity.
But let's have a look at what are all of the other things that you are.
And then you've got daughter and sister and wife and mum and friend and all of those things.
And actually, what impact do you want to be having in all those?
And sometimes when somebody is struggling with their career or struggling with their stress to take that step back and look at the whole can really calm us down and make us think, well, do you know what?
I might be struggling at work, but I'm a really great mom or I'm a really supportive daughter or, you know, I have great fun every time I see my siblings and we just laugh until we cry and take the mickey out of each other.
And these are things that bring intrinsic joy and sometimes just paying attention is all that mindfulness thing.
Absolutely. And the word joy, I just think the word joy itself brings joy.
That's another of my values. Yeah. Another of my values amongst the competitive world I was brought up in fun, joy, you know, laughter was always prevalent.
Absolutely. More than the competitive, you know, having fun was absolutely key. And I would always say that when I'm presenting now, whether I'm delivering a workshop, even when I'm coaching and even through, you know, the last 12 months we've had with dad, we were still laughing at the very end and he was still laughing at the very end.
And for me, if you can find that joy in the moment, I think that's incredibly powerful. But as you say, it's really interesting with the imposter syndrome and that perfectionism and that drive.
I can beat myself up. I can challenge myself from a business point of view. But honestly, I believe I'm a really good mom. And isn't it funny that that was the area right at the start that I struggled with.
And part of that is because I look at the young man that my son is and I look and I think, wow, now we've still got time to go. But I just look at what my husband Paul and I have done and I think, no.
And I honestly believe that if it all finished tomorrow, the impact that I've had on him as a person, I'm happy with that. Yeah. And it's taking that pride. It's lovely to hear you say, I'm a really good mom.
I think a lot of people struggle with the statement, I'm a really good dot dot dot. Because like you said earlier, the ego wrapped up in it. So you said recognition is something you've identified as one of your values.
And I think as psychologists, we would read that more as a motivator. So when we look at what motivates us to do the things we do, there are some external motivators like money and status and the rewards, the things that we can buy, the lifestyle that we can live.
As a result of our efforts, but they are not as powerful. They don't fuel our energy and they don't lift our spirits like the internal motivators.
And they are feeling like you're having a positive impact on the world or on other people being rewarded in terms of thanks and praise rather than things.
Feeling like you're part of a team, feeling like you have a degree of growth and development going on. So I'm a better version of myself this year than I was last year or five years ago.
These things actually are more, they're like fuel. And I think they're hard for us to identify as individuals within ourselves a lot. And it's interesting that you've identified.
So how did you come to recognise that recognition for you was a really important need that you had to feed?
I would say, and I'm not sure of the answer here, but I would guess that the counselling helped me with that.
I joke sometimes I'd rather have the round of applause than the paycheck at the end of a presentation.
The one thing that I don't want to dwell on this, but the grief that I've struggled with this last six months, the one person I used to ring and say, hey, dad, guess what I've just done?
I found that incredibly difficult because I'll say to my husband, are you proud of me?
And he'll say, Deborah, I'm always proud of you. I don't need you to do anything. I'm always proud of you.
But my dad used to say, I'm so proud of you. And my goodness, I miss that. And my mum tries.
I'm the only girl for about four generations. So yes, I was a daddy's girl. But I think that bond and what he gave me.
So I don't know how much of that is that was created there or how much of that is me reflecting back now and thinking that's what I miss so much.
That's where that sadness is.
Yeah. And he right from the start, before you were born, he was predicting that you were going to be some great success in the world, someone he was going to be able to bang a drum about.
And actually, you weren't a boy and you didn't become a footballer. Not that that's a barrier these days.
You know, look at the world of football now and all the wonderful women in it.
But actually, he he wanted to keep banging that drum, didn't he? He wanted to keep celebrating you.
And it's like your husband's answer is so lovely, but it isn't feeding that need for, oh, my goodness, I'm so proud of you in this moment.
I can't believe you've done that thing.
And that is something that's obviously been part and parcel of your life throughout, isn't it?
In terms of I feel like this is therapy. I haven't got tissues, have I?
But it is so important, isn't it, to understand where these things come from within us.
I think that that the competitiveness that you have that's driving you, that need for recognition that we can tell ourselves, oh, you've just been egotistical.
You don't just want the applause, but it's what the applause represents, presumably.
Yes.
Which is a job well done.
Absolutely. Isn't it interesting?
I mean, we were joking before we came on air about, you know, being of a certain age and memory fog.
But how there are certain moments in our life.
And I can forget that I've met people.
I can forget where my friendships came from, whether they were uni friends, you know, where the connections are.
I can forget so much.
But there are certain moments in our life.
So, for example, I can remember being in the law firm and having to write an affidavit for a divorce case.
And I can remember there was a parrot involved for some reason. Isn't that bizarre?
But I can remember the partner saying to me, have you written this?
And saying yes.
And I can remember sitting there and that imposter syndrome, even at that age, this isn't good enough, this isn't good enough, and eventually just putting it in there.
And him saying, this is brilliant, Deborah.
And I can remember that feeling of pride.
And how many years ago is that?
And that snapshot.
So, for me, it's those moments that shows how important it is to me that I've kept it in that memory bank.
Yes.
And that that's something you need to build in as part of your working life to make sure that you are getting that feeling of having an impact,
making a difference, being valued by other people.
And I think other people's impact on us is absolutely huge, isn't it?
And those I observe.
So my sister's a trainer for hearing dogs for the deaf.
And I remember her saying to me once, it's really easy to train a dog.
You just reward the behavior you want and ignore the behavior you don't want.
And I thought, huh, that's the opposite to what organizations do.
So every annual appraisal is this is where your areas of development are for the coming 12 months.
We don't spend much time saying that document you wrote was brilliant.
The way that you expressed that really complex problem with the parrot, you know, that was really good.
Or the way you handled questions or pressure in that meeting, the way you delivered that presentation in a way that made people laugh and think.
We don't give that kind of granular positive feedback enough.
And when we get it, it sticks, doesn't it?
It sticks with you and it becomes part of your identity.
Suddenly you're like, oh, I can write.
So going back to the personal branding, having that clarity of what your strengths are,
having that clarity of what it is you want people to say about you.
And I suppose one of the challenges I've had, and again, I've not thought about this before,
but that perfectionism, that drive that I have, that visibility piece becomes quite difficult
because we all know that creating a podcast, standing on the stage, putting a video on social media,
it's very difficult to get it perfect.
And I would argue actually that perfect sometimes doesn't show the authenticity.
It's in the cracks that we really get to see the person.
Right. So what do we do about that? Because all the research backs this up, doesn't it?
That women wait until they can do everything before they apply for a job, for instance,
whereas the men will take a punt on it if they can do 60%.
And the men get more jobs because the hats are in the ring, yeah?
They're getting on with it. They're doing it.
So what's your take on what women need to do differently?
Let me just share. It's not really my story to tell, but one of my clients,
his husband got to the fourth round interview with an international role in Brussels.
And it was only when he got to the fourth interview he admitted that he didn't speak French,
which was absolutely required.
Now, how many women would do that?
So there's that side of it.
I have a little phrase that I share with my clients, and that's,
think of idea promotion over self-promotion.
And all of a sudden it seems to give people permission.
And the other thing is that how many times, so most of us this morning will have picked up our phone
and either scrolled through Instagram or LinkedIn or seen something and been inspired by that piece.
Now, for me, if I share my podcast or share a piece on social media and I've impacted one person in that day,
that's far more valuable than 3000 impressions or likes.
I've changed the course of somebody's day with that one comment, that one share.
I have my more impact podcast and on there I am so vulnerable.
And at times, well, I've never listened back to it because I cringe at maybe the vulnerability,
that perfectionist side of me.
But I know the people that have come to me and said, thank you for sharing that, Deborah,
because that's exactly how I felt in that moment.
And I think the more that we can all do that, that we can share that it's OK not to be perfect,
it's OK to be struggling.
And I'm not talking about, I still believe in boundaries, that professional side of me,
but I think it's always being kind and understanding that we will not be everything to everybody.
So there's a wonderful quote from Dieter Von Teese that says,
you can be the juiciest, ripest peach in the bowl and some people will still hate peaches.
And for me, that resonates because as a perfectionist, as a people pleaser,
I want to be perfect for everybody.
I've learned that when it comes to personal branding, people need to know what you stand for
and if they're not your person, then you need to let them walk away.
I feel like I've given you a really long-winded answer there to a short question.
No, but it's great.
And for me, what's jumping out, I'm sure listeners will have different things,
but for me, the things that jumped out of there was that starting at the end was that whole,
actually, people knowing what you're about and that whole idea of,
so if someone is recommending you in a room and you're not there,
what's that sentence that they're saying?
And do you know what that is and are you controlling that?
That's one thing.
But I think the other things that you said were kind of more psychological, really,
weren't they? Because you were talking really about reframing.
So reframing what successful social media posts are.
So are they thousands and thousands of impressions or are they one or two people saying,
thank you so much or this really made me think or just commenting on it and giving their own reply back
and actually having that in mind that there are different versions of success.
And so to be conscious of those and aware of those and thinking about those.
And then the bit I wanted to ask you more about, which also sounds like reframing,
but I think it's probably got some great tips in it, is think about idea promotion, not self promotion.
I completely get how that would help somebody.
But what does it mean in practical terms?
I think this goes back and it's very British, isn't it, about ego.
So we shouldn't all be blowing our own trumpet.
And that's the big fear.
So I'll say to a workshop or an audience, what's holding you back?
And well, I don't want to be that person who is seen as.
So we all get that. We all understand that.
But for me, if you have the clarity of what you stand for and you know what your purpose is,
what drives you and you particularly if you're in a service industry,
then you have clients and audience that you serve and you will have clarity
on what that audience needs from you.
So my audience need motivation, inspiration, clarity, confidence.
So if I'm sharing, if I have that knowledge in my mind,
I'm doing a disservice if I am not sharing that to my audience.
So it flips it completely, not just, oh, I'm uncomfortable.
And actually, it's quite a nice filter on what am I sharing here?
Is it relevant? Is it valuable?
Because I'm not talking about showing up on social media seven times a week
and it being a little vacuous.
It's about having content that makes a difference to your audience,
which goes back to clarity piece and knowing who your audience are, what they need from you.
And what you're trying to say.
You're not just posting pictures of your lunch and going, this was a wonderful ciabatta.
So it sounds so straightforward when you talk about it.
You know, you had that moment sitting as a new mum and then you thought, well, set up a business like this.
What was that process really like?
They were like, how long did it take and what were the obstacles that you faced
in terms of defining that and bringing it into the world?
I've never said this before and I've never really thought it, but I think I was perhaps my biggest obstacle.
OK.
And that was maybe some of the imposter syndrome.
I also, I can remember and this will resonate with some people,
I can remember sitting there and thinking, OK, well, yes, I think I could accommodate 10 clients in a week
and sat with my diary working and it hadn't occurred to me where are these 10 clients going to come from.
I don't think people talk enough about how difficult it is at the start.
I realised that done is better than perfect.
And unless I put my big girl pants on and was uncomfortable and put myself out there
and allowed myself to be vulnerable, then I was going to stay stuck.
And I realised I had to have that short term pain and rip the plaster off so that I could get myself out there.
So what did you do first? What was the kind of scary first couple of steps, would you say?
So I would say it's about taking action.
I do believe that we are in a society, we are a society that talks about knowledge.
And actually I can and I've not thought about this before, but I can remember being part of a network,
a really powerful network, and I'm still my closest business friends are still from that original network.
And I remember thinking, Deborah, you've got to stop strategising.
You've got to get yourself out there. And I believe it is about taking action.
So we talk about knowledge, we can all go on training courses, but it's not about consuming.
We can consume. We've got to start creating at some point.
So what did you do first? What do you remember as being those first steps where you actually did something and thought, oh, my God, I'm actually out here doing this now.
So when I was travelling, so in between, I'm just trying to think, in between school and university, I did around the world trip.
And I did a bungee jump. And I can remember in New Zealand, and I was over this river,
and I can remember sitting there on the edge of this plank. And if anybody's ever done it, they'll know exactly that feeling.
You're looking down and they put this huge rope around my ankles.
And what took me by surprise was the weight of the hook that was sort of, I thought it's going to pull me off.
And the guy said to me as I edge to the edge of this plank, he said, you're going to dive forward.
He said, I'm going to count you down three, two, one. Well, I dived on three.
There was no way I would have gone if I'd waited till one. I just had to go. I had to take that action.
And you knew that about yourself. And I knew that about. Right.
Did I intrinsically know that? I don't know. But I think I must have done. Yes.
Yeah, that subconscious, I'm just going to go because if not, I'm not going to go. I've taught myself that already.
And I still do it now on those days where I think, come on, Deborah, just go through the list.
Don't procrastinate. Don't think about it too much. Get it done. Yeah. Do it.
I also reflect at the end of the day. So going back to something that you said at the start about looking for the joy at the beginning of every day,
I don't just look at gratitude, but I do find three things that I'm grateful for. But I commit to how I am going to show up today.
And for me, that's incredibly powerful. So not what am I going to do, but who am I going to be today?
And so those factors are giving you confidence, aren't they?
Those elements where you're thinking, right, OK, so this task might be something that I don't feel entirely comfortable with or competent at.
However, if I go for it and I do it with commitment and I take accountability and I'm kind and I show a bit of vulnerability,
like those things that they're the self-talk elements that are building up that kind of ladder.
Yeah. Building up the energy to actually make do the action, aren't they?
And I think this is such an interesting thing about the thoughts that go in our head that we all have the inner critic and we also have the inner cheerleader.
And often the cheerleader doesn't shout so loud.
And so making sure that we are turning the volume up on that and not in a kind of like, you're amazing.
Like, I'm a tiger. You know, that Alan Partridge for people of our generation, I'm a tiger before I went to try and sell something.
And not that, but that whole thing of, look, it might not be perfect.
You might go out there and you might find you're not as good at this as you hoped or other people.
But if you've built a relationship, if you've done yourself proud, if you've said you've delivered what you've said you were going to do, if you turn up and do that success.
So you're reframing confidence building, reframing and giving yourself that push off the bungee thing.
And also, and I often say to clients, if you were the best in the world at what you do, what action would you take now?
And I listen to that myself because we are the best in the world at being us.
It's not just the role. It's the person behind the role.
I often talk about when we're talking about clarity of your brand, it's not just what you do.
It's who you are. It's all those values that we've talked about, those life experiences.
But it's the how you do it as well.
I'll often say to people, you know, I love fashion. I'm fair. I'm quite softly. Well, I'm not softly spoken. I've got a strong voice. I'm loud.
But I'll often say to people, don't don't be fooled by the soft exterior.
You know, I will hold you accountable. I will challenge you.
So I think it's important to be able to identify that about you and then communicate that regularly.
And when you take that whole piece of the pie or pizza that you talked about, then absolutely we're the best in the world at being us.
And what's that phrase? You know, be an A1 version of yourself rather than a second rate version of somebody else.
Oh, yes. And when we look at particularly within respect to imposter syndrome, the comparison element that's going on is so common and yet so flawed.
So what we do is we go, oh, my gosh, I might say, Deborah, she's just amazing at public speaking.
And I'd like to be good at public speaking. Or you look at someone else going, listen to their podcast. It's amazing.
And I'd like to be a mate. They sound so natural. And then you look at someone else and look at their social media.
They're everywhere. And their pieces are so well written and really impactful. They get loads of responses.
And we are comparing ourselves to the best bits of multiple people.
And we're not thinking about their pie in terms of their their talents and their flaws.
We're just thinking about that one thing they do really, really well.
And so we might take 10 people and compare ourselves against their 10 best things and then make ourselves feel really small and insignificant and maybe lacking in confidence.
Whereas actually, if you reverse that and go, I'm going to look at those same people and think about what they really don't do very well and what I really well makes me go, well, I'm better at that.
If you look around your workplace, you for every person you admire, there'll be something about them that you think, oh, but I wouldn't do it that way.
And so, again, it's that actually what are the stories that we are telling ourselves?
And that narrative is really powerful, not just about who I am, but how I compare to others in the world and who I think they are.
And I can remember listening to Oprah and Oprah saying everybody wants to be Oprah.
But what you see of Oprah is five percent. The other 95 percent is very messy and you might not want to be a part of it.
And I think that's just such a powerful phrase that we do.
We just see this tiny part of people and they don't see the days that you're struggling or whatever it may be.
The other thing I do as well, by the way, that when you're saying about practical tips is I give myself permission these days.
So I've just been incredibly busy. I've been traveling with work.
And I think there were four weeks that I didn't show up on LinkedIn.
Now, I started worrying about the algorithm and I just thought life's more important than an algorithm.
And my clients know me and I did a piece saying I'm really sorry.
You know, I like to walk my talk, but life got in the way. Business was such. And this is how it is.
So I think we have to be very open and give other people permission as well and be kind to ourselves.
And how have you tackled, if you have, that comparison element? You were saying that's one of the things you've struggled with.
Have you found any techniques or ways of of coping with that impulse to compare yourself with others?
I think on a good day, I think a lot of this comes with confidence, your own confidence.
And I've done a lot of work on my own self-worth and confidence and being good enough.
And therefore, I think if you can, I truly believe that if you can work on that and know that you are good enough,
then actually the comparison becomes less. So I don't think I have consciously compared myself less.
But in a world where I've been more comfortable and embraced my own strengths and what I am capable of and recognizing that I am good at what I do.
And that's difficult for us to say sometimes, but to be able to say that with confidence, I'm good at what I do, then somehow there's less of a need to compare.
So you build that self-worth inside and then that means you don't need really to be looking around and wondering, am I good enough?
Because you've got that store and presumably that store is coming from a place of evidence.
So it's not just that looking in the mirror and telling yourself it's amazing. It's that kind of actually, no, let's just interrogate.
What are my strengths? What are my core skills? Where do I have expertise? Where am I different?
Absolutely. And what do I bring? So if I'm doing a podcast or I'm speaking in a meeting or I'm managing a team,
what am I bringing of me that's different to other people? Is it my consideration? Is it my communication skills?
Is it my humor? Is it my ability to focus on the core of a problem? What is it about you that makes you different?
And then embracing that. And I suppose that's the personal branding, isn't it? It's bringing those things right to the forefront of who you are and how you show up.
And the challenge there is that most of us take our strengths for granted. So we don't recognize it because it's just who we are.
And therefore, I think that's where maybe coaching helps because you help people be able to identify that not everybody can.
I mean, I had to do such a lot of work around I had a new client who was incredibly introverted.
Now, I will always say I'm an extrovert, but I'm an extroverted introvert in that I get my energy very much from being on my own.
If I've delivered two or three workshops or presentations in a week, then I need to have some quiet time.
But I had to do a lot of work and learning about that.
So I think that curiosity and understanding that you're not the finished article will also help.
But we can learn. You know, huge believer in a growth mindset.
You know, I'm learning every day. I learn from my clients every day. I learn from my 17 year old every day.
Some things I'm probably best not learning. But, you know, we are learning from each other every day.
And that learning from each other that is just making me think about many years ago when I was sort of setting up a consultancy business with a fellow psychologist.
And we sat down with one of our best clients who'd worked with us for many years, Graham Morgan, and said to him, look, this is us.
This is how we're going to present ourselves on our website. We were specialists in this and we can deliver that and we can do it in a workshop or coaching.
And he sat and he looked at it and he said, yeah, that all looks lovely, ladies. He said, but that isn't why I buy you.
And we were like, oh, why do you buy us? And he's like, I buy you because you make me think.
The questions you ask and the observations you give make me think about how I'm doing the things I'm doing.
But that's why I'm buying you. So I think sometimes going out into the world and asking the people that know you well, what is it that you are valuing?
Which, again, doesn't seem very British. You know, it's almost like what do you like about me?
But actually, you know, what are you seeing? What is my impact?
What do you appreciate about the value that I bring and learning to take that on board and think, oh, OK, so this is what the world is appreciating.
Yes. And then owning that and then owning it.
Yes. That's the key bit. So I'm just thinking something that's to come to mind.
So I can remember when I first started presenting and my husband's a broadcaster.
And he said to me, Deborah, when you walk up to that stage and put onto that stage, up to that microphone, you do not need to convince them.
You are the expert. You are the expert just by being there.
So you start from that level and then deliver.
And for me, that's one of the most powerful pieces of advice I've ever had.
That belief as I stepped up to the microphone and I was able to just go.
And I think we spend too long, whether it's an in real life audience or a social media audience, trying to mind read rather than justify ourselves.
So if you could go back to that young Deborah when you were, you know, coming out of your your girls school and going off to be a lawyer.
And well, first question, what do you think she would think of where you are now?
Oh, so and again, I feel like everything's been put in context of the last six months, but I can't get away from this.
Somebody sent me a quote when dad died and it said that they never leave you and you take that part of them into your identity.
And I've chosen to take dad's belief in me.
I just wish I'd seen that.
Forty five years ago, however many years, has it really taken me this long to
I'm going to get a little bit upset here, but see me through his eyes.
I wish, you know, I see the gift now and I wish I'd picked it up earlier.
So I would actually tell her to realize how good she is just because she wasn't the best at everything.
And maybe this is the flip side of the competitive, but because I wasn't the best at anything, but I was really pretty good at most things.
I'd tell her to have a look at that because that's not a bad bar to say.
Yeah, absolutely. And what's the thread running through that?
What are all those things you're good at?
What is it that they have in common?
And that's probably that kind of relationship element that you were talking about before, wasn't it?
In your dad's eyes, you were the best. Yeah.
And that's why he was having that impact.
And it's lovely that you've taken him into your character and how you want to kind of live the rest of your life with him, maybe internalized.
There were some bad bits as well.
He was already there before though, wasn't he? So he didn't need to internalize him.
Yeah. Yeah. So she would think you needed to be a bit more confident, which was kind of going to the next question, which is which advice, what advice would you give her?
I think there's a belief that you get confidence and you've got it for life, whereas I believe that confidence ebbs and flows depending on the day, the environment.
Whereas I would like to think that my self-worth is solid now.
Yes. Maybe not fully solid, 80% solid.
That's great. There isn't it? That's brilliant.
Maybe it can never be 100% because that's maybe where you get those characters that we've all met them, but maybe we wouldn't go out for a drink with them.
But yeah, that confidence thing, we look at as psychologists, we know there's a very big difference between social confidence and inner confidence.
So you can be very socially gregarious, very extrovert, very outgoing.
But actually self-esteem wise and self-worth wise, that can be quite low.
Or both those things could be high or both those things, they're not correlated.
They can go in either way. But then within that inner confidence, there are two elements.
And this is always fascinating me. So we get self-esteem, which is, do I feel worthy of love and respect?
And that's kind of what you're talking about, isn't it? And then you get self-efficacy.
Do I believe that if I tried, I could do it? And that's subtly different again, isn't it?
And I think that's something that you've touched on with that. Well, just have a go.
Don't think too much about that one because you can talk yourself out of that one.
Just have a go and see and find out growth mindset, feel the fear, do it anyway, step into it, start.
All of those elements have come across strongly in what you've been saying.
It's been great. So much to think about.
I mean, just getting that clarity of who you are in the world and what you're trying to portray and how you want people to respond.
You know, these are powerful things that we probably don't spend enough time thinking about because, as we just said, they take a lot of thought.
So thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you.
Thank you. And I feel that actually some of the questions that you've asked me, I've had to really dig deep to find the answers.
Sometimes because of the reflective work I do, I can trot out those answers.
But you've challenged me today. So I'm going to think a lot about self-efficacy.
That's my learning for today. Thank you, Leona.
That's great. Thanks, Deborah.
Coming up next time.
I can think back. There were two occasions when I was in my 20s where I was asked to move in court because the usher came over to me and said, excuse me, you need to move.
And I would like pack my stuff up and they'd say, that's where the solicitors sit.
And I'd be like, right, let's get everything back out again. And I would just say, I am a solicitor.
It's those kinds of behaviours that you brush off, but actually they're not right. It's not funny in any way.
It's about, you know, people's view of your appearance as opposed to your ability.