1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Welcome to Leadership Journeys. I'm psychologist Leona Deakin and I'm delving into the minds of successful women to find out how they've achieved the things that they have. 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:26,000 Last week we heard from Rehana Asabash about how entering traditionally male-dominated environments like the used car industry as a female can really give you an edge. 3 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,000 Coming up in this episode... 4 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:46,000 I had my son and I had a real identity crisis and I can remember sitting on this church hall floor singing Dingley, Dangley, Scarecrow and I thought if I look around this circle I bet they don't even know my name, they just know me as Oscar's mummy. 5 00:00:46,000 --> 00:01:00,000 And all of a sudden you are just a mum and I felt such a failure and it was at that point I thought I'm going to set up, so I trained as a coach and I set up the business. 6 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:17,000 Can feeling like a failure be the secret to your success? 7 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Today I am talking to personal branding and impact coach Deborah Ogden. I'm very excited about this. So Deborah is a business owner. She has over 20 years experience on brand. She actually started out as a lawyer, then moved into helping professional sports people to get sponsorship deals, so that sounds very cool. 8 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:54,000 And now she helps all kinds of leaders and professionals to have more confidence, more presence, more gravitas and essentially to be you at your best, which I love. I think this has so much relevance to women in any kind of career. 9 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:11,000 So I'm really interested to hear not only Deborah's story today, but also how she thinks women can ensure they're having the strongest impact while also staying true to themselves in male dominated environments. So that'll be a cool thing to explore. So welcome Deborah. 10 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,000 It's so good to be on the podcast. Thank you. 11 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:32,000 That's okay. So I wanted to start out. I mean, I just mentioned there that you were a lawyer, but I wanted to start out by just reflecting back to you as maybe late teens, early 20s. So what were your ideas about where your career was going to go? What it was going to end up being? 12 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:47,000 I think I'm most excited about this conversation today because it's the influences we have from an early age, isn't it? I've reflected more this year. I lost my dad this year, and he has probably been the biggest influence in my life. 13 00:02:47,000 --> 00:03:02,000 And I was very blessed that I had a dad that brought me up and a mum that I could do anything. And maybe it started at a very early age when he told the nurses on the ward that I was going to play football for Manchester United. 14 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:17,000 He was a little disappointed when out popped a little girl. But so I was always told that I could do anything. And that is something that has been with me throughout my life, throughout my career. 15 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:41,000 And I think I've reflected on that more this last six months and reminded myself off, re-reminded myself of that to take that with me as I go forward. So I was always, I went to an all girls school and we were always expected to perform and do well. 16 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:56,000 I come from a family where we're incredibly competitive. So I have a younger brother as well. We've always watched football, cricket, played on the beach. There was none of this, the taking part. You were always in it to win it. 17 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:23,000 My poor son's been brought up in that way as well. I think I've always pushed myself to achieve and the school that I was at, you know, you went on to be a lawyer or you went on to be a doctor or actually I, even though I did go on and train as a lawyer, qualify as a lawyer, I knew quite quickly that it wasn't for me. 18 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:40,000 And I was never going to be the person that was a commercial corporate lawyer. Intellectually that just didn't fit with me. My strength is people and connection and building relationships. 19 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:54,000 So I naturally went into the more high street family law, criminal law, because there was so much more criminal law in those days in high street firms. 20 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:19,000 And even though I enjoyed it when I was there and I can remember having a gift for getting clients to talk, I still knew it. I wasn't in the right place. Just by chance, I went working for a management consultants and I was working in their employment law team and I picked up a copy of Marketing Week. 21 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:36,000 It was just on the side. We had a marketing consultant and I thought, wow, what's this? And I didn't really know what marketing was. And I used to pick up this Marketing Week. I think I used to sneak it away before the consultant picked it up each week and take it home and read it. 22 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:49,000 And that opened up a whole new area for me. Yeah, so a competitive environment at home is making me laugh actually because I had to tell my husband off because he kept winning Cluedo with our three children. 23 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:59,000 But it was a family Cluedo. So it was four children and I had to take him to one side to say, you know, this is a game for children. But he's like, no, we need to teach them that if they can't beat me. 24 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:12,000 So we had quite a different. You obviously go up in that environment where you were in it to win it. Competitive parents, competitive siblings, all that good stuff. And that being about going out in the world and achieving something and doing it well. 25 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:26,000 So there's obviously that coming through there. So just jumping to where you are now, because obviously that's quite different. So you saw the marketing world and thought that looks kind of a bit more exciting, maybe a bit more sexy than this law that I'm doing. 26 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:35,000 So that obviously took you off on a little exploration of that. The personal branding space, though, was that something where you identified there was a bit of a gap there? 27 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:43,000 Did you look around and think, well, people are not branding themselves right? Or was it more of a personal thing where you did it for yourself first? How did that come about? 28 00:06:43,000 --> 00:07:00,000 At that time, my son's 17 now. I had my son and I had a real identity crisis. So without going too much into it, it was a real real journey to have Oscar. I had a number of miscarriages and it was a really quite traumatic time. 29 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:17,000 So he was such a wanted little boy. And after about two years, I just had lost my identity. And I can remember sitting on this church hall floor singing Dingley, Darkly, Scarecrow. 30 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 And I thought, if I look around this circle, I bet they don't even know my name. They just know me as Oscar's mummy. 31 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:41,000 So I went along to the doctors and they said, I think you should have some counselling. You are absolutely a prime candidate for postnatal depression, depression because you're intelligent, much wanted child. 32 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:55,000 You've always been in control. You've had very high profile roles. Your identity is very much part of who you are. And all of a sudden, you are, you know, this mum. Just a mum. 33 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:04,000 The most sought after role I'd ever wanted. But and I felt such a failure. Oh, I feel a little bit wobbly. 34 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:13,000 And I realised in that moment during the counselling that the identity piece was huge for me. And one of my values is recognition. 35 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:22,000 And I was just missing something somewhere. And it was in those counselling sessions. I thought, wait a minute, if I'm feeling like this, there are going to be other women feeling like this. 36 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:38,000 And there are going to be other people feeling like this. That identity piece when we have a life changing moment, whether it's becoming a mum, whether it's through grief, whether it's through redundancy, whatever it may be, we all have these moments. 37 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:49,000 And it was at that point I thought I'm going to set up. So I trained as a coach and I set up the business. Now nobody called it personal branding in those days. 38 00:08:49,000 --> 00:09:04,000 But I realised I think everybody thought I would set up a PR comms agency. But I knew that I was going to need to have something that I really loved to make this business work. 39 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:16,000 And I thought back to that conversation about, Debra, you have this something. And that's where it came from. So that moment of OK, what is that something? That's my identity. 40 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:22,000 How can I clarify that and learn to communicate that and help other people do the same? 41 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Yeah, absolutely. And so it wasn't called personal branding at that stage. So what did you go out into the market with? How was it badged? 42 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:41,000 So I called it Impact. OK. Yeah. So it's always been about impact. It's always been about impact. So it's always been maybe that's that competitive edge coming in. 43 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:50,000 Impact's a strong word, isn't it? But it was always about impact. I played with a few ideas, but that sat well. 44 00:09:50,000 --> 00:10:01,000 And I resisted personal branding for quite a long time because I didn't want to be seen as somebody who was writing content on LinkedIn. 45 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:11,000 And I'm very clear even to this day that the important work around personal branding is that clarity piece and that identity piece. 46 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:21,000 Because long before you start posting on LinkedIn or social media or being on podcasts, you have to have absolute clarity on what that message is. 47 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:36,000 Absolutely. And what a what a journey to have gone through to go from sitting in a room with other mums thinking, oh, my gosh, I feel like a failure to launch in a business that not only helps redefine you, but does the same for other people. 48 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,000 That's lovely. But just going back to that moment of failure, why do you think you felt like a failure? 49 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:52,000 Was that career wise? And coming from that, you felt like, oh, now you were a mum, you'd lost that professional side of you? Or did you was it more generalized than that? 50 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Where did that feeling come from? I think there were a number of things. I've realized that one of my values is absolutely recognition. 51 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:18,000 So and you know, you can look at ego in there. And but I like to be known and I'm a little bit uncomfortable saying that. But in my role at Old Trafford, I was media manager for many years there in a very in the spotlight. 52 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I was the first professional media manager in the sport, which ruffled a few feathers. I think I was described in the Daily Telegraph as an expensive luxury. But people, people by mail, people soon followed suit. 53 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:48,000 And the appointment in that role meant that Lancashire's profile rose as well, the fact that they were taking the media and sponsorship seriously. 54 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:59,000 But I learned a lot in that environment, being a female in a male dominated. But you can imagine the testosterone you've worked in professional sport, the testosterone. 55 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:09,000 So that was a big success. You were getting that recognition and albeit you were being described as an expensive luxury. But let's face it, who doesn't like one of those? 56 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:18,000 We all love a bit of expensive luxury. But you were you made a bit of a name for yourself and you were having your own personal impact. 57 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:25,000 But you were also enabling that cricket club to have improved impact. And then we go to sitting in a room as a mum. 58 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:31,000 So was it the difference, do you think, between what you've been doing and then what you were doing? 59 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:44,000 So one of my other values is high standards, which comes from dad. Maybe the flip side of all that is that I needed to perform. 60 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:59,000 I needed to perform at the highest level. Is there a little bit of me that felt that I was a failed lawyer? Maybe. So I had to achieve in my area. 61 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,000 And maybe I didn't feel that I was achieving when I was a mum. 62 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:14,000 Those two factors, having a perfectionistic personality and a competitive childhood environment are the two C's for imposter syndrome. 63 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:23,000 Because we always feel like we're not being as good as we could be or we should be. And so we take that on as a judgment that the world is throwing back at us. 64 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,000 But actually, it's just a judgment that's inside our heads that we're throwing out at ourselves. 65 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:42,000 And I once read and it resonated so much that the definition of hell is to be sat in a room and shown a video of what your life could have been. 66 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think so many women will be able to relate to that feeling of being the new mum, because I think so many of us, all of us probably really want to be a mum. 67 00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:02,000 And I think that's something that is just such a wonderful life experience. I mean, we are sold a Disney version of it before we have children, I do believe. 68 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:08,000 You kind of imagine that you're going to be skipping through a park, holding hands, having cuddles at bedtime. 69 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:19,000 And then you have a baby. And particularly in that first 12 months, I think my experience was I have never been so scared and so bored at the same time. 70 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:33,000 Because similarly to you, I'd gone from a very busy job, quite high profile job, dealing with senior people, having an impact, to suddenly sitting in cafes or sitting in my own lounge with a baby, thinking all the books tell me I'm supposed to be able to tell what this cry means. 71 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:48,000 But I don't know what this cry means. But I've got to go through these routine things for the rest of the day. And it was a really jarring experience. And it was also reminding me, I've done quite a bit of work with Jeremy Snape, who's an ex England cricketer. 72 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:56,000 And he often talks, he's now retrained as a sports psychologist, he often talks about sports people die twice. 73 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:04,000 I've heard this before and it's so powerful. And it's so powerful, isn't it? But as you were talking then, I was like, oh, but also so do mums. 74 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:13,000 So there's a bit of a mini crisis there, isn't there, that you've had this version of yourself, especially if you have your children later in life, perhaps. 75 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:22,000 I was 38. Yeah, and I was 40. So you've had this version of your life, that's your identity. And identity is so important to us. 76 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:29,000 It gives us credibility in the world, gives us self-esteem, gives us something to say at a party. What's your name? What do you do? 77 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:34,000 And then all of a sudden, boom, and you drop off a cliff and you're into mumsville. 78 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:48,000 And we define ourselves as parents, but I've got enough people in my network, in my friendship group that haven't been blessed to become mums. 79 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:59,000 And they've really had to work on their identity and redefine. And then I've also got friends in my group that are, that choose not to be mums. 80 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:09,000 And I think as a society, we have a real issue around defining women as maybe failure because they're not mums. 81 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:16,000 And that's that presumably within the personal branding, that authenticity element of, well, I am who I am. 82 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:24,000 You know, I have some fabulous talents and I also have some flaws over here that, you know, I'm trying to improve and we're all trying to improve. 83 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:38,000 But you can't deny the fact that there are some things that we struggle with more as an individual or that are just our trigger points where we may be less patient than we'd like to be or less stress tolerant than we'd like to be. 84 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,000 And we can work on tweaking these things, but they're part and parcel of who we are, aren't they? 85 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,000 And I think what was really powerful and what you were saying there about women seeing themselves in the round. 86 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:58,000 So when I'm coaching people, I'll often talk about the pie or the pizza where you go, OK, so you're one slice of that is you at work in terms of your identity. 87 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,000 But let's have a look at what are all of the other things that you are. 88 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:08,000 And then you've got daughter and sister and wife and mum and friend and all of those things. 89 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,000 And actually, what impact do you want to be having in all those? 90 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:21,000 And sometimes when somebody is struggling with their career or struggling with their stress to take that step back and look at the whole can really calm us down and make us think, well, do you know what? 91 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:31,000 I might be struggling at work, but I'm a really great mom or I'm a really supportive daughter or, you know, I have great fun every time I see my siblings and we just laugh until we cry and take the mickey out of each other. 92 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:39,000 And these are things that bring intrinsic joy and sometimes just paying attention is all that mindfulness thing. 93 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Absolutely. And the word joy, I just think the word joy itself brings joy. 94 00:17:45,000 --> 00:18:01,000 That's another of my values. Yeah. Another of my values amongst the competitive world I was brought up in fun, joy, you know, laughter was always prevalent. 95 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:21,000 Absolutely. More than the competitive, you know, having fun was absolutely key. And I would always say that when I'm presenting now, whether I'm delivering a workshop, even when I'm coaching and even through, you know, the last 12 months we've had with dad, we were still laughing at the very end and he was still laughing at the very end. 96 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:36,000 And for me, if you can find that joy in the moment, I think that's incredibly powerful. But as you say, it's really interesting with the imposter syndrome and that perfectionism and that drive. 97 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:53,000 I can beat myself up. I can challenge myself from a business point of view. But honestly, I believe I'm a really good mom. And isn't it funny that that was the area right at the start that I struggled with. 98 00:18:53,000 --> 00:19:09,000 And part of that is because I look at the young man that my son is and I look and I think, wow, now we've still got time to go. But I just look at what my husband Paul and I have done and I think, no. 99 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:27,000 And I honestly believe that if it all finished tomorrow, the impact that I've had on him as a person, I'm happy with that. Yeah. And it's taking that pride. It's lovely to hear you say, I'm a really good mom. 100 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:40,000 I think a lot of people struggle with the statement, I'm a really good dot dot dot. Because like you said earlier, the ego wrapped up in it. So you said recognition is something you've identified as one of your values. 101 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:56,000 And I think as psychologists, we would read that more as a motivator. So when we look at what motivates us to do the things we do, there are some external motivators like money and status and the rewards, the things that we can buy, the lifestyle that we can live. 102 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:05,000 As a result of our efforts, but they are not as powerful. They don't fuel our energy and they don't lift our spirits like the internal motivators. 103 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:16,000 And they are feeling like you're having a positive impact on the world or on other people being rewarded in terms of thanks and praise rather than things. 104 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:28,000 Feeling like you're part of a team, feeling like you have a degree of growth and development going on. So I'm a better version of myself this year than I was last year or five years ago. 105 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:39,000 These things actually are more, they're like fuel. And I think they're hard for us to identify as individuals within ourselves a lot. And it's interesting that you've identified. 106 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:49,000 So how did you come to recognise that recognition for you was a really important need that you had to feed? 107 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:56,000 I would say, and I'm not sure of the answer here, but I would guess that the counselling helped me with that. 108 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:04,000 I joke sometimes I'd rather have the round of applause than the paycheck at the end of a presentation. 109 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:16,000 The one thing that I don't want to dwell on this, but the grief that I've struggled with this last six months, the one person I used to ring and say, hey, dad, guess what I've just done? 110 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:23,000 I found that incredibly difficult because I'll say to my husband, are you proud of me? 111 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:29,000 And he'll say, Deborah, I'm always proud of you. I don't need you to do anything. I'm always proud of you. 112 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:35,000 But my dad used to say, I'm so proud of you. And my goodness, I miss that. And my mum tries. 113 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:42,000 I'm the only girl for about four generations. So yes, I was a daddy's girl. But I think that bond and what he gave me. 114 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:52,000 So I don't know how much of that is that was created there or how much of that is me reflecting back now and thinking that's what I miss so much. 115 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,000 That's where that sadness is. 116 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:04,000 Yeah. And he right from the start, before you were born, he was predicting that you were going to be some great success in the world, someone he was going to be able to bang a drum about. 117 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:10,000 And actually, you weren't a boy and you didn't become a footballer. Not that that's a barrier these days. 118 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,000 You know, look at the world of football now and all the wonderful women in it. 119 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,000 But actually, he he wanted to keep banging that drum, didn't he? He wanted to keep celebrating you. 120 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:27,000 And it's like your husband's answer is so lovely, but it isn't feeding that need for, oh, my goodness, I'm so proud of you in this moment. 121 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,000 I can't believe you've done that thing. 122 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:34,000 And that is something that's obviously been part and parcel of your life throughout, isn't it? 123 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:41,000 In terms of I feel like this is therapy. I haven't got tissues, have I? 124 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:49,000 But it is so important, isn't it, to understand where these things come from within us. 125 00:22:49,000 --> 00:23:00,000 I think that that the competitiveness that you have that's driving you, that need for recognition that we can tell ourselves, oh, you've just been egotistical. 126 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,000 You don't just want the applause, but it's what the applause represents, presumably. 127 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,000 Yes. 128 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,000 Which is a job well done. 129 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,000 Absolutely. Isn't it interesting? 130 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:15,000 I mean, we were joking before we came on air about, you know, being of a certain age and memory fog. 131 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,000 But how there are certain moments in our life. 132 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,000 And I can forget that I've met people. 133 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:29,000 I can forget where my friendships came from, whether they were uni friends, you know, where the connections are. 134 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000 I can forget so much. 135 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,000 But there are certain moments in our life. 136 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:41,000 So, for example, I can remember being in the law firm and having to write an affidavit for a divorce case. 137 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,000 And I can remember there was a parrot involved for some reason. Isn't that bizarre? 138 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,000 But I can remember the partner saying to me, have you written this? 139 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,000 And saying yes. 140 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:59,000 And I can remember sitting there and that imposter syndrome, even at that age, this isn't good enough, this isn't good enough, and eventually just putting it in there. 141 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,000 And him saying, this is brilliant, Deborah. 142 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,000 And I can remember that feeling of pride. 143 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 And how many years ago is that? 144 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000 And that snapshot. 145 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:18,000 So, for me, it's those moments that shows how important it is to me that I've kept it in that memory bank. 146 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Yes. 147 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:30,000 And that that's something you need to build in as part of your working life to make sure that you are getting that feeling of having an impact, 148 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,000 making a difference, being valued by other people. 149 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:38,000 And I think other people's impact on us is absolutely huge, isn't it? 150 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000 And those I observe. 151 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,000 So my sister's a trainer for hearing dogs for the deaf. 152 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,000 And I remember her saying to me once, it's really easy to train a dog. 153 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,000 You just reward the behavior you want and ignore the behavior you don't want. 154 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,000 And I thought, huh, that's the opposite to what organizations do. 155 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,000 So every annual appraisal is this is where your areas of development are for the coming 12 months. 156 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,000 We don't spend much time saying that document you wrote was brilliant. 157 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:14,000 The way that you expressed that really complex problem with the parrot, you know, that was really good. 158 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:21,000 Or the way you handled questions or pressure in that meeting, the way you delivered that presentation in a way that made people laugh and think. 159 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,000 We don't give that kind of granular positive feedback enough. 160 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,000 And when we get it, it sticks, doesn't it? 161 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,000 It sticks with you and it becomes part of your identity. 162 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Suddenly you're like, oh, I can write. 163 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:41,000 So going back to the personal branding, having that clarity of what your strengths are, 164 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,000 having that clarity of what it is you want people to say about you. 165 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,000 And I suppose one of the challenges I've had, and again, I've not thought about this before, 166 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:58,000 but that perfectionism, that drive that I have, that visibility piece becomes quite difficult 167 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:07,000 because we all know that creating a podcast, standing on the stage, putting a video on social media, 168 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,000 it's very difficult to get it perfect. 169 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,000 And I would argue actually that perfect sometimes doesn't show the authenticity. 170 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,000 It's in the cracks that we really get to see the person. 171 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000 Right. So what do we do about that? Because all the research backs this up, doesn't it? 172 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,000 That women wait until they can do everything before they apply for a job, for instance, 173 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000 whereas the men will take a punt on it if they can do 60%. 174 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,000 And the men get more jobs because the hats are in the ring, yeah? 175 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,000 They're getting on with it. They're doing it. 176 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,000 So what's your take on what women need to do differently? 177 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,000 Let me just share. It's not really my story to tell, but one of my clients, 178 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:53,000 his husband got to the fourth round interview with an international role in Brussels. 179 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000 And it was only when he got to the fourth interview he admitted that he didn't speak French, 180 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,000 which was absolutely required. 181 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,000 Now, how many women would do that? 182 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,000 So there's that side of it. 183 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,000 I have a little phrase that I share with my clients, and that's, 184 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,000 think of idea promotion over self-promotion. 185 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,000 And all of a sudden it seems to give people permission. 186 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:26,000 And the other thing is that how many times, so most of us this morning will have picked up our phone 187 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:35,000 and either scrolled through Instagram or LinkedIn or seen something and been inspired by that piece. 188 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:44,000 Now, for me, if I share my podcast or share a piece on social media and I've impacted one person in that day, 189 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:51,000 that's far more valuable than 3000 impressions or likes. 190 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:57,000 I've changed the course of somebody's day with that one comment, that one share. 191 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,000 I have my more impact podcast and on there I am so vulnerable. 192 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:08,000 And at times, well, I've never listened back to it because I cringe at maybe the vulnerability, 193 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,000 that perfectionist side of me. 194 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,000 But I know the people that have come to me and said, thank you for sharing that, Deborah, 195 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000 because that's exactly how I felt in that moment. 196 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:25,000 And I think the more that we can all do that, that we can share that it's OK not to be perfect, 197 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,000 it's OK to be struggling. 198 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:34,000 And I'm not talking about, I still believe in boundaries, that professional side of me, 199 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:41,000 but I think it's always being kind and understanding that we will not be everything to everybody. 200 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,000 So there's a wonderful quote from Dieter Von Teese that says, 201 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:50,000 you can be the juiciest, ripest peach in the bowl and some people will still hate peaches. 202 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:56,000 And for me, that resonates because as a perfectionist, as a people pleaser, 203 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,000 I want to be perfect for everybody. 204 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:05,000 I've learned that when it comes to personal branding, people need to know what you stand for 205 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,000 and if they're not your person, then you need to let them walk away. 206 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,000 I feel like I've given you a really long-winded answer there to a short question. 207 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,000 No, but it's great. 208 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000 And for me, what's jumping out, I'm sure listeners will have different things, 209 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,000 but for me, the things that jumped out of there was that starting at the end was that whole, 210 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:29,000 actually, people knowing what you're about and that whole idea of, 211 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,000 so if someone is recommending you in a room and you're not there, 212 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,000 what's that sentence that they're saying? 213 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,000 And do you know what that is and are you controlling that? 214 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,000 That's one thing. 215 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,000 But I think the other things that you said were kind of more psychological, really, 216 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,000 weren't they? Because you were talking really about reframing. 217 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,000 So reframing what successful social media posts are. 218 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:58,000 So are they thousands and thousands of impressions or are they one or two people saying, 219 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:05,000 thank you so much or this really made me think or just commenting on it and giving their own reply back 220 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,000 and actually having that in mind that there are different versions of success. 221 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,000 And so to be conscious of those and aware of those and thinking about those. 222 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,000 And then the bit I wanted to ask you more about, which also sounds like reframing, 223 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:25,000 but I think it's probably got some great tips in it, is think about idea promotion, not self promotion. 224 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,000 I completely get how that would help somebody. 225 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,000 But what does it mean in practical terms? 226 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,000 I think this goes back and it's very British, isn't it, about ego. 227 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,000 So we shouldn't all be blowing our own trumpet. 228 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,000 And that's the big fear. 229 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:46,000 So I'll say to a workshop or an audience, what's holding you back? 230 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,000 And well, I don't want to be that person who is seen as. 231 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,000 So we all get that. We all understand that. 232 00:30:53,000 --> 00:31:01,000 But for me, if you have the clarity of what you stand for and you know what your purpose is, 233 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,000 what drives you and you particularly if you're in a service industry, 234 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:14,000 then you have clients and audience that you serve and you will have clarity 235 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,000 on what that audience needs from you. 236 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,000 So my audience need motivation, inspiration, clarity, confidence. 237 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:30,000 So if I'm sharing, if I have that knowledge in my mind, 238 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,000 I'm doing a disservice if I am not sharing that to my audience. 239 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:41,000 So it flips it completely, not just, oh, I'm uncomfortable. 240 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,000 And actually, it's quite a nice filter on what am I sharing here? 241 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Is it relevant? Is it valuable? 242 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,000 Because I'm not talking about showing up on social media seven times a week 243 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000 and it being a little vacuous. 244 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,000 It's about having content that makes a difference to your audience, 245 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,000 which goes back to clarity piece and knowing who your audience are, what they need from you. 246 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,000 And what you're trying to say. 247 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:15,000 You're not just posting pictures of your lunch and going, this was a wonderful ciabatta. 248 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,000 So it sounds so straightforward when you talk about it. 249 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,000 You know, you had that moment sitting as a new mum and then you thought, well, set up a business like this. 250 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,000 What was that process really like? 251 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,000 They were like, how long did it take and what were the obstacles that you faced 252 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,000 in terms of defining that and bringing it into the world? 253 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,000 I've never said this before and I've never really thought it, but I think I was perhaps my biggest obstacle. 254 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,000 OK. 255 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,000 And that was maybe some of the imposter syndrome. 256 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,000 I also, I can remember and this will resonate with some people, 257 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:59,000 I can remember sitting there and thinking, OK, well, yes, I think I could accommodate 10 clients in a week 258 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:05,000 and sat with my diary working and it hadn't occurred to me where are these 10 clients going to come from. 259 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,000 I don't think people talk enough about how difficult it is at the start. 260 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:16,000 I realised that done is better than perfect. 261 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:24,000 And unless I put my big girl pants on and was uncomfortable and put myself out there 262 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:30,000 and allowed myself to be vulnerable, then I was going to stay stuck. 263 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:38,000 And I realised I had to have that short term pain and rip the plaster off so that I could get myself out there. 264 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,000 So what did you do first? What was the kind of scary first couple of steps, would you say? 265 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,000 So I would say it's about taking action. 266 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:51,000 I do believe that we are in a society, we are a society that talks about knowledge. 267 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,000 And actually I can and I've not thought about this before, but I can remember being part of a network, 268 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:05,000 a really powerful network, and I'm still my closest business friends are still from that original network. 269 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,000 And I remember thinking, Deborah, you've got to stop strategising. 270 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:15,000 You've got to get yourself out there. And I believe it is about taking action. 271 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,000 So we talk about knowledge, we can all go on training courses, but it's not about consuming. 272 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,000 We can consume. We've got to start creating at some point. 273 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:33,000 So what did you do first? What do you remember as being those first steps where you actually did something and thought, oh, my God, I'm actually out here doing this now. 274 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:42,000 So when I was travelling, so in between, I'm just trying to think, in between school and university, I did around the world trip. 275 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:49,000 And I did a bungee jump. And I can remember in New Zealand, and I was over this river, 276 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:56,000 and I can remember sitting there on the edge of this plank. And if anybody's ever done it, they'll know exactly that feeling. 277 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,000 You're looking down and they put this huge rope around my ankles. 278 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:08,000 And what took me by surprise was the weight of the hook that was sort of, I thought it's going to pull me off. 279 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:14,000 And the guy said to me as I edge to the edge of this plank, he said, you're going to dive forward. 280 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:20,000 He said, I'm going to count you down three, two, one. Well, I dived on three. 281 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,000 There was no way I would have gone if I'd waited till one. I just had to go. I had to take that action. 282 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,000 And you knew that about yourself. And I knew that about. Right. 283 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,000 Did I intrinsically know that? I don't know. But I think I must have done. Yes. 284 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,000 Yeah, that subconscious, I'm just going to go because if not, I'm not going to go. I've taught myself that already. 285 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,000 And I still do it now on those days where I think, come on, Deborah, just go through the list. 286 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:50,000 Don't procrastinate. Don't think about it too much. Get it done. Yeah. Do it. 287 00:35:50,000 --> 00:36:00,000 I also reflect at the end of the day. So going back to something that you said at the start about looking for the joy at the beginning of every day, 288 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:11,000 I don't just look at gratitude, but I do find three things that I'm grateful for. But I commit to how I am going to show up today. 289 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:17,000 And for me, that's incredibly powerful. So not what am I going to do, but who am I going to be today? 290 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,000 And so those factors are giving you confidence, aren't they? 291 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:28,000 Those elements where you're thinking, right, OK, so this task might be something that I don't feel entirely comfortable with or competent at. 292 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:38,000 However, if I go for it and I do it with commitment and I take accountability and I'm kind and I show a bit of vulnerability, 293 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:44,000 like those things that they're the self-talk elements that are building up that kind of ladder. 294 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,000 Yeah. Building up the energy to actually make do the action, aren't they? 295 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:57,000 And I think this is such an interesting thing about the thoughts that go in our head that we all have the inner critic and we also have the inner cheerleader. 296 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,000 And often the cheerleader doesn't shout so loud. 297 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:07,000 And so making sure that we are turning the volume up on that and not in a kind of like, you're amazing. 298 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,000 Like, I'm a tiger. You know, that Alan Partridge for people of our generation, I'm a tiger before I went to try and sell something. 299 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,000 And not that, but that whole thing of, look, it might not be perfect. 300 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,000 You might go out there and you might find you're not as good at this as you hoped or other people. 301 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:32,000 But if you've built a relationship, if you've done yourself proud, if you've said you've delivered what you've said you were going to do, if you turn up and do that success. 302 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:39,000 So you're reframing confidence building, reframing and giving yourself that push off the bungee thing. 303 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:49,000 And also, and I often say to clients, if you were the best in the world at what you do, what action would you take now? 304 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:55,000 And I listen to that myself because we are the best in the world at being us. 305 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,000 It's not just the role. It's the person behind the role. 306 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,000 I often talk about when we're talking about clarity of your brand, it's not just what you do. 307 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:11,000 It's who you are. It's all those values that we've talked about, those life experiences. 308 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,000 But it's the how you do it as well. 309 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:21,000 I'll often say to people, you know, I love fashion. I'm fair. I'm quite softly. Well, I'm not softly spoken. I've got a strong voice. I'm loud. 310 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:27,000 But I'll often say to people, don't don't be fooled by the soft exterior. 311 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,000 You know, I will hold you accountable. I will challenge you. 312 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:39,000 So I think it's important to be able to identify that about you and then communicate that regularly. 313 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:48,000 And when you take that whole piece of the pie or pizza that you talked about, then absolutely we're the best in the world at being us. 314 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:54,000 And what's that phrase? You know, be an A1 version of yourself rather than a second rate version of somebody else. 315 00:38:54,000 --> 00:39:05,000 Oh, yes. And when we look at particularly within respect to imposter syndrome, the comparison element that's going on is so common and yet so flawed. 316 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:12,000 So what we do is we go, oh, my gosh, I might say, Deborah, she's just amazing at public speaking. 317 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,000 And I'd like to be good at public speaking. Or you look at someone else going, listen to their podcast. It's amazing. 318 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:23,000 And I'd like to be a mate. They sound so natural. And then you look at someone else and look at their social media. 319 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,000 They're everywhere. And their pieces are so well written and really impactful. They get loads of responses. 320 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:35,000 And we are comparing ourselves to the best bits of multiple people. 321 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,000 And we're not thinking about their pie in terms of their their talents and their flaws. 322 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,000 We're just thinking about that one thing they do really, really well. 323 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:56,000 And so we might take 10 people and compare ourselves against their 10 best things and then make ourselves feel really small and insignificant and maybe lacking in confidence. 324 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:06,000 Whereas actually, if you reverse that and go, I'm going to look at those same people and think about what they really don't do very well and what I really well makes me go, well, I'm better at that. 325 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:14,000 If you look around your workplace, you for every person you admire, there'll be something about them that you think, oh, but I wouldn't do it that way. 326 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:19,000 And so, again, it's that actually what are the stories that we are telling ourselves? 327 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:26,000 And that narrative is really powerful, not just about who I am, but how I compare to others in the world and who I think they are. 328 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:32,000 And I can remember listening to Oprah and Oprah saying everybody wants to be Oprah. 329 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:40,000 But what you see of Oprah is five percent. The other 95 percent is very messy and you might not want to be a part of it. 330 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,000 And I think that's just such a powerful phrase that we do. 331 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:50,000 We just see this tiny part of people and they don't see the days that you're struggling or whatever it may be. 332 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:58,000 The other thing I do as well, by the way, that when you're saying about practical tips is I give myself permission these days. 333 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,000 So I've just been incredibly busy. I've been traveling with work. 334 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,000 And I think there were four weeks that I didn't show up on LinkedIn. 335 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:13,000 Now, I started worrying about the algorithm and I just thought life's more important than an algorithm. 336 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,000 And my clients know me and I did a piece saying I'm really sorry. 337 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,000 You know, I like to walk my talk, but life got in the way. Business was such. And this is how it is. 338 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:31,000 So I think we have to be very open and give other people permission as well and be kind to ourselves. 339 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:37,000 And how have you tackled, if you have, that comparison element? You were saying that's one of the things you've struggled with. 340 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:45,000 Have you found any techniques or ways of of coping with that impulse to compare yourself with others? 341 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:50,000 I think on a good day, I think a lot of this comes with confidence, your own confidence. 342 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:57,000 And I've done a lot of work on my own self-worth and confidence and being good enough. 343 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:10,000 And therefore, I think if you can, I truly believe that if you can work on that and know that you are good enough, 344 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:18,000 then actually the comparison becomes less. So I don't think I have consciously compared myself less. 345 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:30,000 But in a world where I've been more comfortable and embraced my own strengths and what I am capable of and recognizing that I am good at what I do. 346 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:41,000 And that's difficult for us to say sometimes, but to be able to say that with confidence, I'm good at what I do, then somehow there's less of a need to compare. 347 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:51,000 So you build that self-worth inside and then that means you don't need really to be looking around and wondering, am I good enough? 348 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:56,000 Because you've got that store and presumably that store is coming from a place of evidence. 349 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:02,000 So it's not just that looking in the mirror and telling yourself it's amazing. It's that kind of actually, no, let's just interrogate. 350 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:09,000 What are my strengths? What are my core skills? Where do I have expertise? Where am I different? 351 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:16,000 Absolutely. And what do I bring? So if I'm doing a podcast or I'm speaking in a meeting or I'm managing a team, 352 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:25,000 what am I bringing of me that's different to other people? Is it my consideration? Is it my communication skills? 353 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:33,000 Is it my humor? Is it my ability to focus on the core of a problem? What is it about you that makes you different? 354 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:41,000 And then embracing that. And I suppose that's the personal branding, isn't it? It's bringing those things right to the forefront of who you are and how you show up. 355 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:51,000 And the challenge there is that most of us take our strengths for granted. So we don't recognize it because it's just who we are. 356 00:43:51,000 --> 00:44:03,000 And therefore, I think that's where maybe coaching helps because you help people be able to identify that not everybody can. 357 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:13,000 I mean, I had to do such a lot of work around I had a new client who was incredibly introverted. 358 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:21,000 Now, I will always say I'm an extrovert, but I'm an extroverted introvert in that I get my energy very much from being on my own. 359 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:30,000 If I've delivered two or three workshops or presentations in a week, then I need to have some quiet time. 360 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,000 But I had to do a lot of work and learning about that. 361 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:41,000 So I think that curiosity and understanding that you're not the finished article will also help. 362 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,000 But we can learn. You know, huge believer in a growth mindset. 363 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:52,000 You know, I'm learning every day. I learn from my clients every day. I learn from my 17 year old every day. 364 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:59,000 Some things I'm probably best not learning. But, you know, we are learning from each other every day. 365 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:07,000 And that learning from each other that is just making me think about many years ago when I was sort of setting up a consultancy business with a fellow psychologist. 366 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:14,000 And we sat down with one of our best clients who'd worked with us for many years, Graham Morgan, and said to him, look, this is us. 367 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:21,000 This is how we're going to present ourselves on our website. We were specialists in this and we can deliver that and we can do it in a workshop or coaching. 368 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:27,000 And he sat and he looked at it and he said, yeah, that all looks lovely, ladies. He said, but that isn't why I buy you. 369 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,000 And we were like, oh, why do you buy us? And he's like, I buy you because you make me think. 370 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:38,000 The questions you ask and the observations you give make me think about how I'm doing the things I'm doing. 371 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:48,000 But that's why I'm buying you. So I think sometimes going out into the world and asking the people that know you well, what is it that you are valuing? 372 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,000 Which, again, doesn't seem very British. You know, it's almost like what do you like about me? 373 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,000 But actually, you know, what are you seeing? What is my impact? 374 00:45:54,000 --> 00:46:05,000 What do you appreciate about the value that I bring and learning to take that on board and think, oh, OK, so this is what the world is appreciating. 375 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,000 Yes. And then owning that and then owning it. 376 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,000 Yes. That's the key bit. So I'm just thinking something that's to come to mind. 377 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:18,000 So I can remember when I first started presenting and my husband's a broadcaster. 378 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:28,000 And he said to me, Deborah, when you walk up to that stage and put onto that stage, up to that microphone, you do not need to convince them. 379 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:33,000 You are the expert. You are the expert just by being there. 380 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,000 So you start from that level and then deliver. 381 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,000 And for me, that's one of the most powerful pieces of advice I've ever had. 382 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:47,000 That belief as I stepped up to the microphone and I was able to just go. 383 00:46:47,000 --> 00:47:02,000 And I think we spend too long, whether it's an in real life audience or a social media audience, trying to mind read rather than justify ourselves. 384 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:12,000 So if you could go back to that young Deborah when you were, you know, coming out of your your girls school and going off to be a lawyer. 385 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:18,000 And well, first question, what do you think she would think of where you are now? 386 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:27,000 Oh, so and again, I feel like everything's been put in context of the last six months, but I can't get away from this. 387 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:42,000 Somebody sent me a quote when dad died and it said that they never leave you and you take that part of them into your identity. 388 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:47,000 And I've chosen to take dad's belief in me. 389 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,000 I just wish I'd seen that. 390 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:56,000 Forty five years ago, however many years, has it really taken me this long to 391 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:02,000 I'm going to get a little bit upset here, but see me through his eyes. 392 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,000 I wish, you know, I see the gift now and I wish I'd picked it up earlier. 393 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:15,000 So I would actually tell her to realize how good she is just because she wasn't the best at everything. 394 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:24,000 And maybe this is the flip side of the competitive, but because I wasn't the best at anything, but I was really pretty good at most things. 395 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,000 I'd tell her to have a look at that because that's not a bad bar to say. 396 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,000 Yeah, absolutely. And what's the thread running through that? 397 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,000 What are all those things you're good at? 398 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,000 What is it that they have in common? 399 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:42,000 And that's probably that kind of relationship element that you were talking about before, wasn't it? 400 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,000 In your dad's eyes, you were the best. Yeah. 401 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,000 And that's why he was having that impact. 402 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:57,000 And it's lovely that you've taken him into your character and how you want to kind of live the rest of your life with him, maybe internalized. 403 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,000 There were some bad bits as well. 404 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,000 He was already there before though, wasn't he? So he didn't need to internalize him. 405 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:14,000 Yeah. Yeah. So she would think you needed to be a bit more confident, which was kind of going to the next question, which is which advice, what advice would you give her? 406 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:24,000 I think there's a belief that you get confidence and you've got it for life, whereas I believe that confidence ebbs and flows depending on the day, the environment. 407 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:29,000 Whereas I would like to think that my self-worth is solid now. 408 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:34,000 Yes. Maybe not fully solid, 80% solid. 409 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,000 That's great. There isn't it? That's brilliant. 410 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:45,000 Maybe it can never be 100% because that's maybe where you get those characters that we've all met them, but maybe we wouldn't go out for a drink with them. 411 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:52,000 But yeah, that confidence thing, we look at as psychologists, we know there's a very big difference between social confidence and inner confidence. 412 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,000 So you can be very socially gregarious, very extrovert, very outgoing. 413 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:01,000 But actually self-esteem wise and self-worth wise, that can be quite low. 414 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,000 Or both those things could be high or both those things, they're not correlated. 415 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,000 They can go in either way. But then within that inner confidence, there are two elements. 416 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:15,000 And this is always fascinating me. So we get self-esteem, which is, do I feel worthy of love and respect? 417 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:20,000 And that's kind of what you're talking about, isn't it? And then you get self-efficacy. 418 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:28,000 Do I believe that if I tried, I could do it? And that's subtly different again, isn't it? 419 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,000 And I think that's something that you've touched on with that. Well, just have a go. 420 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,000 Don't think too much about that one because you can talk yourself out of that one. 421 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:42,000 Just have a go and see and find out growth mindset, feel the fear, do it anyway, step into it, start. 422 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,000 All of those elements have come across strongly in what you've been saying. 423 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,000 It's been great. So much to think about. 424 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:56,000 I mean, just getting that clarity of who you are in the world and what you're trying to portray and how you want people to respond. 425 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:03,000 You know, these are powerful things that we probably don't spend enough time thinking about because, as we just said, they take a lot of thought. 426 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,000 So thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you. 427 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:15,000 Thank you. And I feel that actually some of the questions that you've asked me, I've had to really dig deep to find the answers. 428 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:20,000 Sometimes because of the reflective work I do, I can trot out those answers. 429 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,000 But you've challenged me today. So I'm going to think a lot about self-efficacy. 430 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,000 That's my learning for today. Thank you, Leona. 431 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,000 That's great. Thanks, Deborah. 432 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,000 Coming up next time. 433 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:42,000 I can think back. There were two occasions when I was in my 20s where I was asked to move in court because the usher came over to me and said, excuse me, you need to move. 434 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,000 And I would like pack my stuff up and they'd say, that's where the solicitors sit. 435 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,000 And I'd be like, right, let's get everything back out again. And I would just say, I am a solicitor. 436 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:56,000 It's those kinds of behaviours that you brush off, but actually they're not right. It's not funny in any way. 437 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:24,000 It's about, you know, people's view of your appearance as opposed to your ability.