1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,760 Welcome to Leadership Journeys. I'm Leona Deakin and we are delving into the minds of successful women 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,360 to find out how they've achieved the amazing things that they've achieved. 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:18,320 Last week we heard from the inspirational Yana Smaglo. How do you turn a negative life experience, 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:23,040 something as horrific as escaping war in the Ukraine, into a positive? 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:31,280 A chance to do something good for the world. In this episode... 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,960 These people are telling us they wouldn't be there if it wasn't for our research. 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,960 They wouldn't be there if they hadn't had that scan. They wouldn't be there if they hadn't 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,560 taken part in that trial. And I can't tell you how powerful that is. That is the thing that makes you 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,880 get out of bed in the morning. What do you do if you know you're right but the world isn't listening? 10 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:59,760 Today's guest managed to make even the government hear her. But the person she really wants to listen to her message is you. 11 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:14,080 My guest today on Leadership Journeys is Dr Catherine Scott who has moved from being scientist 12 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:20,000 to CEO of Yorkshire Cancer Research. Many of the women who are speaking to me on the podcast are 13 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,520 women I've worked with but Catherine's a little different because I actually went to school with 14 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,320 you Catherine, didn't I? Hello. Yes you did and we won't be telling any of those stories on this podcast. 15 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:35,120 Gotcha. When we met at Sixth Form I was the girl who was desperately trying to get into the 16 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:41,760 school show and you were the straight-A academic looking for a brilliant career. 17 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:48,480 Weird how things turn out, isn't it? It's weird, yeah. Always jealous of the people who could get up on the stage. 18 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:55,440 You're too kind. So we are sitting today in Yorkshire Cancer Research's new wellness centre 19 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:02,640 which has a beautiful cafe and a nice lovely charity shop where people can come and get some 20 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:10,560 beautiful clothes and things. But most importantly it has this wonderful kind of exercise area and 21 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,160 rehabilitation area. Just tell me a little bit about this because this has been a bit of a passion 22 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:19,120 project of yours, hasn't it? Well absolutely. So we identified quite a few years ago there were 23 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:27,440 bits missing for people who've had a diagnosis of cancer including support after a diagnosis but 24 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,000 after treatment as well. A lot of people said that they felt like they fell off a cliff after 25 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,600 treatment ended. All that regular attendance at hospital and consultant appointments and la la la. 26 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:44,960 They had nothing to go to after that. But more, more, more importantly and I can't stress this enough, 27 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:52,320 exercise after diagnosis of cancer can half the chance of a cancer coming back and people were not 28 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:58,240 being told this information and we really wanted to bring that to people. So we're a Yorkshire based 29 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,200 charity so we thought we'll bring it to Yorkshire first but bang a drum really hard when we gather 30 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,640 that evidence so that people will have that available to them the country if not the world 31 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:14,000 over. Wow. I mean I have always been a bit of an admirer of Katherine because she's got the brain, 32 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,680 the size of a planet. But I'm very proud of you for this particular work that you've done and I'm 33 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:25,120 sure your journey towards this wonderful building and this wonderful mission will kind of come out 34 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:31,200 in your story. But let's just go back. So we studied our A levels together and then you went 35 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:39,600 off to university in Manchester. You did a degree and then you did a PhD in cell and molecular biology. 36 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:46,640 Correct. Thank you. And then so just thinking about that younger version of Katherine, so that kind of 37 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:53,600 at university early stages of your career, what were you wanting to do career wise? Did you have 38 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:59,120 a plan at that stage for what you wanted to do? I'm not sure I had a plan but I had a passion. 39 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:04,000 I absolutely loved, loved, loved biology. And by the way, my children have gone out of their way to 40 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,800 not do biology and perhaps there's a link here. I loved biology. It lit me up. I completely 41 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:16,080 understood it. It made complete sense. Nature is lazy. It always wants to do things the easiest way 42 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:25,200 possible. But there was a moment when I was about 18 years old when I discovered DNA. And I absolutely 43 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:31,440 cannot believe how amazing DNA is. It's the same stuff that makes mushrooms and wheat and humans. 44 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:38,080 And they're so, so different. How can you possibly have some molecules that do that range of different 45 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,200 things? I loved it. And then when I discovered mutations in DNA that can cause human diseases, 46 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:53,040 I was on my path. That was me sorted. And so you immediately following your PhD stayed in academia, 47 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:59,440 is that right? And stayed in research. So for about 12 years, I did laboratory science, a range of 48 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:04,480 things. I worked on bladder cancer. I worked on hematological malignancies like myeloma 49 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:10,880 and myeloid leukemia, those kinds of things. And then eventually I needed more people in my life. 50 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:16,000 So I gave up the lab and the plates of cells and I switched over to Yorkshire Cancer Research. 51 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:22,400 So how different is the job that you're doing now to kind of where you started out? 52 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,960 Worlds apart. Because when I first started out, I was doing experiments. I was using a pipette every 53 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:34,880 minute of the day. I was doing experiments that showed whether this mutation was linked to that 54 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:42,000 disease or whether it wasn't a mutation at all. Whereas now we are a funder of science and research, 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,680 but we also have active services which are research led. And they're not really anything 56 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:53,040 to do with that molecular level. It's really at the other end of the spectrum of what the disease, 57 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:59,120 in this case, cancer is. How it affects people is where I am now, not how it affects cells, 58 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:05,840 which is where I began. Would you be surprised, your younger self, would you have been surprised 59 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,640 by the job that you're doing now and the level that you're working at now? I would have not 60 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:16,560 believed this at all. Where I grew up, so when I grew up in Bradford, I grew up in a council house 61 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:23,200 in a part of Bradford called Lilycroft. And I didn't know anybody who'd gone to university 62 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:30,480 on our estate where we lived. I hadn't heard of a PhD. And I didn't know anybody who was a chief 63 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:37,120 executive or had ever wanted to become one. It just wasn't in our language. So it is a completely 64 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:43,680 different world, totally different world. And quite a fascinating journey. It would be really 65 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:49,840 interesting to know, I think, for those people, those leaders, ladies and gents who are kind of 66 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:56,800 on their way towards their kind of goals and dreams and ambitions. It'd be kind of useful to know 67 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:03,520 what have been the two or three big step changes, would you say, in your career moving from that 68 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:10,960 kind of bench scientist to the CEO? So just give me like those big moves, maybe. Well, it's quite 69 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:18,160 frightening when you look back at that, because some of them are accidental. Okay. So opportunity 70 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:24,480 just arose at that time. But I would say I had in school, I had an amazing maths teacher called 71 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:30,560 Harry Outram, who was terrifying. You could hear a pin drop in his lessons. But he gave me the quiet 72 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,920 confidence with maths. Now, I was never that into maths, as in I could do it. But I used it as a 73 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:42,480 tool because I loved biology. Biology was where my heart lived. So having a fantastic background in 74 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,360 maths really helped that. And I credit Harry Outram with, and he's sadly not with us anymore. 75 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,680 But I credit him with giving me that confidence. The second inflection point, I think, was when I 76 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:59,280 was walking down a corridor as a third year undergraduate. And the senior guy in the department, 77 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:07,600 a guy called Professor Keith Gull, who was, oh gosh, he was terrifying and strode the corridors. 78 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:13,760 And people would cower in doorways away from him. And he walked past me in a corridor. And he just 79 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,600 said, I want you to do a PhD in my lab. And I have not a clue. I asked, he retired quite recently. 80 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:25,520 And I asked him, at his retirement day, why did you do that? And he's from the North East. And he 81 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:31,520 said in a very broad North East accent, you just had something about you. And I thought, wow, 82 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,960 that's incredible. How lucky, how absolutely lucky was that to happen? So that's how I ended up doing 83 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:44,640 a PhD. And then the third one, and the last one, is, I think, when my boss at York University, 84 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:50,000 a guy called Jim Allen, who's now a professor in Newcastle, he said to me, you need more people in 85 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,720 your life. And in fact, I'm not going to apply for any more grants for you because you need to be 86 00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:01,200 with more people. You need to do something that's in science, but not at the bench. And I thought, 87 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:09,200 you, how rude, how dare you, how, how, I was so indignant. But he was 100% right. And I absolutely 88 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,720 am delighted that he spotted that and pushed me in that direction. 89 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:20,240 So you've got kind of three key mentors there that are actually almost signposting your next 90 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:26,320 step. So your, your maths teacher, Mr. Outram, he built your, built your confidence. But then 91 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:32,400 the two academics, they actually signposted you to what they thought you should be doing. 92 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,480 Which is a bit sad, really, isn't it? Because it's supposed to come from within, but, and maybe it 93 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:43,760 was there inside. And, and certainly, and I suppose the other, and this is a daft one, maybe, but I am 94 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:51,120 the accidental chief executive in that, our previous chief executive left. And in that sort 95 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,080 of scenario, they just looked for some, just looked for someone to fill the space initially, 96 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,960 which I did for six months and learned a heck of a lot. And then I thought, well, I will apply 97 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:06,480 for this. But I don't think, again, that was a, I was a victim of circumstance, not a victim, 98 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:15,920 wrong word, but it was a, a circumstantial change. It wasn't a change that I set my heart on. 99 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:23,040 This is quite interesting, isn't it? Because I think a lot of us believe that luck is this big 100 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:29,120 factor and like the world is kind of conspiring to help us or hinder us. However, in what you're 101 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:35,280 saying, these people were noticing something in you. So, you know, that the professor that 102 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,840 stopped you in the corridor said there was something about you. You don't know what that 103 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,760 thing is. You can't kind of articulate that. But he, he knew there was something about you, 104 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:53,840 something maybe about your passion or your work effort, or just your mindset about how you were 105 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,640 kind of approaching the things that you were doing. He was seeing something behavioral, 106 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,840 presumably, in you that was making him think, oh, I want that person on my team. 107 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:09,920 I think there's a lot to be said for that. And I do wonder if I call it only child syndrome. So, 108 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:15,280 I am an only child. And I don't like it when people say no, when I think it's unreasonable 109 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,240 to say no. And that has played out absolutely in some of the things we've done at Yorkshire Cancer 110 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:26,000 Research, when we've been told no, and I thought, we're doing it anyway. So, so there's a bit, 111 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,280 maybe belligerence, determinist, you know, those kinds of words or just stubbornness. 112 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,840 You're a mum, you have a couple of children. How did that kind of change maybe what you were 113 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:41,040 doing or how you viewed work? Did it have an impact in any way? Obviously, no regrets at all 114 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,160 about having children and they are delightful. Even as teenagers, they're still delightful. 115 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,640 They... You have to say that. Well, they will probably listen to this. 116 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:59,280 But it is true. And they, they definitely made our lives complete. They came along at a time, 117 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,640 really, where I needed to make that decision. Am I going to push on to try and be a professor 118 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:11,200 in an academic environment or am I going to do something different? And that was around the time 119 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:19,200 when the advice to me by my then boss was, you do need to do something that's more people focused. 120 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,800 So, I think you crash those together. And that's when the job at Yorkshire Cancer Research came 121 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,200 up and I thought I have never done a desk job before where I'm sat down a lot of the day, 122 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,360 because in a lab, you're stood up moving around, you know, you're on your feet all the time. And 123 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,760 I thought this is going to be a really big cultural change. But it did fit because it was three days 124 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:44,080 a week whilst I had one child who was three and one child who was 18 months. Now, having young 125 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:50,560 children and trying to do laboratory work is almost impossible because it's setting up 126 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:56,800 experiments. If you need to set up one at 4am and leave it running until 4pm and then start 127 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,320 doing the tests on it, it just doesn't work because you've got nursery drop off. And as great as Dan, 128 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:08,160 my other half is, it wasn't fair to make him be the sole carer for our children on the days that 129 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,240 I was working. So, having the children made me stop and think about what was important in life 130 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:20,240 and work-life balance. And I tell everybody this and I think they would repeat it back almost like 131 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:26,320 a little mantra, family first always. So, somebody in the team has got a thing that's pulling them 132 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:32,640 away from work. Because if you do that and give people that freedom to be like that, then they 133 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,920 will give back more anyway. They will come back, work more than they would have done, done more 134 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:44,640 things with more enthusiasm. So, it was really key for me to have that work-life balance. So, 135 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:51,280 whilst it did slow down a little bit, it moved me onto a parallel track, which was research funding 136 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:58,160 side in a charity. And that's when that journey really began. So, you suddenly saw what this 137 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,800 organisation could do and it was quite a small organisation. And then it's eight years later 138 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,120 that you become the CEO. What was going on in those eight years? What were the steps going on 139 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:14,400 there? How did you get to this point? So, once we started taking some steps, first of all, 140 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,640 you need funding. So, you've got to start to take some steps. So, we did some innovative funding 141 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,960 bids from trusts and foundations and all that have never been done before in the charity, 142 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:28,160 and not to that extent. And I could see that that was a possibility. So, I started to build a team, 143 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:34,240 build a team, build a bigger team, add bits on. So, we started to look at data analysis and then 144 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,480 start to almost develop policies in that we do develop them now. But in the early days, 145 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,840 they were quite rudimentary. And we started to really clearly see that Yorkshire did lag 146 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,520 behind most other parts of England in cancer outcomes. So, that again gives you opportunities 147 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,000 because you think, okay, what are others doing? What can we do? Let's look around the world. 148 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,160 And building that expertise in the team, once you start to get a name for yourself, 149 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,360 then the sort of funding gets a bit more easy flowing because you can tell a really great story 150 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,760 in your funding application. So, instead of us just being a funder of other research, we were 151 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:15,040 then applying for funding to bring it into the charity in the first place, and then really 152 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:21,600 upsizing what we did fund. So, understanding what the work that was going to be funded by the charity 153 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:28,880 was going to do for people. And that again started to really gather speed and start 154 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:35,120 trundling down the road almost on its own. And that has led to some amazing successes for us. 155 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,840 And was that something then that you spotted a bit of an opportunity or maybe a gap in what the 156 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,760 charity was doing? And was it you that started to pull those teams in and start to look at 157 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:51,520 different ways of working? So, yes, but I definitely, the chief executive at the time, 158 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:57,760 a guy called Charles Rowatt, he gave me the wings to do that. So, he gave me the freedom 159 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:03,520 and the confidence. So, okay, Catherine, if you think going and putting some scanners in lorries 160 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:08,000 is the right thing to do, you go and build it and then come back and tell me what it looks like. 161 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,560 So, build it in a theoretical sense, then come back and tell me what it looks like. So, okay, 162 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,920 if you think this is a good idea, prove it. And all that gauntlet throwing down just is perfect 163 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:24,240 for me because I love a challenge. And again, when central government didn't want to do some, 164 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,480 didn't want us to do some of the things that we were doing, because it would give them a headache 165 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:34,560 later on down the line if we proved them to be successful. That's even more gauntlet throwing down. 166 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:40,480 So, what do you, thinking about your current job as a chief executive officer, what do you enjoy 167 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,040 most about it? What's most rewarding about working at this level? What do you say? 168 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,880 I should have probably brought the packet issues in for this moment because there are 169 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,720 occasional times, and they've happened two or three times now, where we go and do a research 170 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:01,520 showcase. So, we take our research out and we make it lay friendly and we fill a room full of 171 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:07,760 people who either have taken part in our research, who might be donors or supporters or volunteers, 172 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,960 and we fill that room full of those people. And then we bring on some very eminent professors to 173 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,760 tell us about the work that they're doing funded by Yorkshire Cancer Research. And then every now 174 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,720 and again, at the end of one of those research showcases, the people who've taken part in the 175 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:31,760 research, they will stand up and say thank you and give the team a round of applause. And that is 176 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:38,320 the most emotional, amazing, these people are telling us they wouldn't be there if it wasn't 177 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,720 for our research. They wouldn't be there if they hadn't had that scan. They wouldn't be there if 178 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:48,320 they hadn't taken part in that trial. And I can't tell you how powerful that is. That is the thing 179 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,400 that makes you get out of bed in the morning. When you're looking a little emotional, just 180 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:57,600 kind of talking about that. So I can't help those, I get a tear in my eye every time and it starts to 181 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,720 catch in my throat because it is the best day of the job. Well, how are you feeling? Obviously, 182 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:08,160 they're feeling very grateful for the kind of help and support that they've been given. 183 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,760 How are you feeling and your team feeling when you're standing watching those people? 184 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:20,640 Well, my overriding feeling is that we need to offer this to more people and it absolutely 185 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,640 needs to be, you know, it's all very well filling that room full of a few hundred people, 186 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:30,240 but there are literally thousands of people every year in Yorkshire who get a diagnosis of cancer. 187 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:37,920 So I just think it reignites and reaffirms that you want to do it on as big a scale as humanly 188 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:44,800 possible because there are so many gains we can make, continue to make, and we absolutely owe that 189 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,280 to these people. These people are the people who raise money for the charity. They support the 190 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,480 charity. They talk positively about the charity. They're the people we are here for. That's who 191 00:18:54,480 --> 00:19:02,160 we're constituted to be helping. So doing as much as we can, as many people to help as humanly 192 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:11,840 possible. And is it possible to give us a kind of example of maybe somebody who you've seen the 193 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,720 charity really help? I mean, you know, obviously keeping their confidences, but almost an illustration 194 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,880 of the difference that can be made on that kind of individual level maybe. So we have, of course, 195 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,040 we have in our Active Together program here in Harrogate and actually we also have one in Sheffield. 196 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:35,280 We're opening one in mid Yorkshire in collaboration with the Trust and one in Airdale in 197 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,280 collaboration with the Trust. So we're starting to reach a lot of people, but in this Harrogate one, 198 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,320 this is the place where, because it's my daily office, this is where I can see people and talk 199 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:50,000 to people every day who are taking part in our research. And it's not just our Active Together 200 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,880 program. We meet other people who are benefiting from our research as well who come and see us. 201 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:03,360 And the stories range from people who've been given access to a drug that saved their lives, 202 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:08,720 if they had a particularly rare form of an inherited cancer, and then this highly specific 203 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:15,120 molecular drug that the charity funded the research of in the early days, that drug has 204 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:20,720 saved their lives. And it was a really aggressive disease and they would not have been here had this 205 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:27,040 been 10 years ago. So we have people like that in our world and they'd like, you know, they'll come 206 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,240 and see us, tell us their stories. But we also have people taking part in Active Together who come in 207 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:38,080 literally on crutches who have to be helped to the door. And by the end of six weeks with us, 208 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:44,240 they were walking laps of the big studio, which is without crutches. And that makes such a difference 209 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,040 for them, because suddenly they can walk the dog, they can pick up a grandchild from school, 210 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,720 whatever it is that's important to them, they can suddenly do those things because we help them. 211 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,880 And that's just ace. That's amazing, isn't it? And so the Active Together program, that's the 212 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:08,000 exercise-based wellbeing work that you're doing here. It's about getting people to be as fit 213 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:15,280 as they possibly can, multiple reasons why. But the first part of that is to make sure that they 214 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,400 can tolerate the full course of their treatment as well as possible. Because if they can do that, 215 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,120 they're more likely to stay on that treatment and complete the full course if they're staying as 216 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:31,040 well as they can be. So first of all, that helps with adherence to the treatments. Secondly, it 217 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,640 helps people with their mindsets, their positive mindset. It gives them a peer support group. 218 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:42,160 I mean, I have said for years before we moved into this building, the people who feel really 219 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:48,480 comfortable, if they've had bowel surgery, say for example, and their body might not operate in the 220 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,600 way it used to, they might have a colostomy bag, they might fart sometimes when they're not supposed 221 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,800 to. But if you're in an exercise class with other people who are all doing that same thing, 222 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:04,640 there's a real camaraderie and a real support network. We have an amazing spill kit here. 223 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,720 If anything gets spilled, whatever it is, we can deal with it. It's amongst friends and it's all 224 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:18,000 fine. Yeah. So you're not alone. And we're going to make you more resilient to whatever it is that 225 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,360 you have to kind of deal with over the next course of months and years for some people. 226 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:29,200 What you're doing is you're taking charge of an element of your treatment. You're doing it for 227 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:35,680 yourself. You're empowered to do that little bit on your own. You can't really make too many 228 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,840 decisions about what level of chemo you're going to have or what chemo timing regime you're going 229 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:47,760 to be on, for example. But you can help yourself with some exercise. How much of a fight was it 230 00:22:47,760 --> 00:23:01,120 for you personally to bring this into being? Doing new things is always tricky. And I've learned 231 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:06,720 some brilliant lessons. I've, oh my goodness, this last two, three years, that has been my steepest 232 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:13,600 learning curve, even through PhD days. Because the absolute lessons that I've learned is I have an 233 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:19,520 amazing team here at Yorkshire Cancer Research, amazing, amazing team, but I need to bring them 234 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,400 with me. So when I'm having the next wacky idea and they're all take the mickey out of me for this, 235 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,760 and that's fine. It really is fine because I'll have 99 ideas and one will work. And that's 236 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:35,280 actually their skills and their abilities, them take, identify the one and then take it. 237 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,720 But winning hearts and minds is such a huge, important part, winning people over, 238 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:46,880 giving them the confidence that it's going to work. And that if it doesn't, you've got their back. 239 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,960 And that is a big, big lesson that I've learned over the last two or three years. It isn't just 240 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,120 ploughing ahead and saying, well, we're going to do it because I want to do it. No, no, no, 241 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:59,520 that is the wrong approach, 100% wrong. You've got to bring your people with you. 242 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,240 And so how have you done that? How have you brought them with you? Like tactically, 243 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:11,040 tactically, what are the kind of activities that you've done more of or the ways you've behaved 244 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:17,280 differently maybe that have enabled you to get their hearts and minds? Building it together. 245 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,320 So going to them with a problem and then saying, how can you help me fix this or how can we fix 246 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:29,520 this together? So actually going to our different departments in the charity and saying, let's build 247 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,240 this together. But these are the worries I've got. And when obviously some of the worries that they've 248 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,360 got and they'll have other worries as well, navigating those together and building it together. 249 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:44,320 And just thinking of that, because I feel very proud of you when you talk about this as a kind 250 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,600 of long standing friend. What do you think young Catherine would have thought of what you've 251 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,360 achieved? Would she have been proud? I suppose young Catherine was a bit sort of shoulder 252 00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:01,680 shruggy in some ways. She was a bit like, no, definitely not too cool. I was like, oh, you did 253 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:08,880 that. Okay. So quite kind of accepting really of the future. I think as a youngster though, 254 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,440 I didn't really challenge the future enough. So I would probably say to that young self, 255 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:22,560 don't give yourself false ceilings. Don't give yourself false limitations. It isn't a limitation 256 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,360 that you were born in a council house in Bradford to two brilliant parents who always supported me. 257 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:32,800 They were my super strength actually. So early years up until probably university years, 258 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:38,160 I relied very much on them with self-confidence, self-esteem, all of those great things that your 259 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:45,120 parents can do for you. I had that in spades from mine. It's about emotion again, isn't it? 260 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:52,000 And that the power of the family and that you went into life feeling confident inside, but still 261 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,760 interestingly having these perceptions of the world maybe that there were limits or there were 262 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:06,080 ceilings or there were things you couldn't do because dot dot dot. Absolutely. And you go to 263 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,280 university and everyone takes the Mickey because you're a Northern lass. And so you probably try 264 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,560 a little bit harder. You probably do revise that a little bit longer because you don't want to be 265 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,480 shown up. It doesn't come naturally. It really didn't. I often used to say I was the first 266 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,520 person in my family to go to uni, which is actually not true because my mother got there 267 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,760 the year before me. So she did start a degree the year before me. Brilliant. Well done, Mum. 268 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:40,320 But yes, so I think you've just got to be determined is the wrong word. I don't really 269 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:47,200 know. I'm not very good at expressing it because it's things that happen to you at a moment in time. 270 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,880 But they are some of them are secret strengths and you just need to tumble to that. You just need to 271 00:26:52,880 --> 00:27:00,080 figure out actually that isn't a bad thing that you want to work a little bit harder, that you want 272 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,040 to prove yourself, that you're a little bit embarrassed maybe because you didn't go to a 273 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:12,480 fancy school. We went to a very nice school, by the way, but it wasn't a super performing 274 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:19,040 academic private school, say, for example. Yeah. So maybe it's not about having that kind of pre-designed 275 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:25,280 ideal route to wherever you're going, but actually embracing your differences. And even if those 276 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,480 differences might feel uncomfortable or might be a little embarrassing, you know, I moved schools 277 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,960 to meet you guys and had a very different accent and there was a lot of mickey taking. And I suppose 278 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,640 there's a choice there of whether you kind of try to change yourself to fit the world or you try and 279 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,680 change the world to fit you and different people do different things. I don't remember you ever 280 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,560 changing to fit the world, my love. I think you got the world to fit you. However, who knew that 281 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:58,480 there was a W in the middle of the word Stoke? All my fellow Stokeys know what we're talking about 282 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:05,200 there. There's definitely a silent W. And there was kind of one other thing that I was just going 283 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,880 to ask you there, just talking about your parents. So I think that whole thing about inner confidence, 284 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,560 you know, we can have this outer confidence where you're comfortable standing up in front of a group 285 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,680 of people and talking and that's like social confidence. That's one thing. But that inner 286 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,760 confidence, that self-esteem, that's kind of invisible to the world. And some people have 287 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,960 got it in spades and some people don't have much at all and really influences kind of how we 288 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,640 interact with the world and how we make our way through the world. So what do you think your mom 289 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:43,360 and dad did that was so powerful in giving you that kind of inner confidence? I suppose I grew 290 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,760 up in a house where, and I don't even know where did my parents get this background from because 291 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:54,480 it wasn't their background, but I grew up in a house where education was the freedom key. 292 00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:02,160 So the key to a future life, living an interesting life, doing an interesting job, 293 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:08,720 meeting interesting people and achieving things, it comes from having an education. 294 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:14,720 So whilst I was never locked in my room, I didn't need to be locked in my room. I enjoyed revising, 295 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,320 sorry, but it's true. But I got a lot of benefit from having parents that really, 296 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,360 really believed in education. And my dad's philosophy certainly was, because my dad had 297 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,440 some hard jobs. He had some digging up the roads in the middle of the night kind of jobs 298 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,440 and gas leaks and so on and so forth. Probably saw some horrible things that he'll probably never 299 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:40,960 tell us about when houses exploded, etc. His attitude was always, if you want to work in 300 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,480 retail at the end of your degree or PhD, you can do that. But you can't go and work in a lab 301 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,640 if you go into retail at 16, because I worked in Boots the Chemist actually when I was a 16 year 302 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,440 old and I loved it. I really loved it. You can go, you know, it's a one way valve. If you have 303 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:01,680 education, you can then do anything. Whereas if you don't have education, your options are limited. 304 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:08,640 And so they believe in education, but it sounds like they believed in you. They believed in your 305 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:16,800 ability to be educated and have a better life for yourself. But they never would never have never 306 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:24,880 made it about me. It was always about the education. So it was like secret esteem giving, 307 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:32,480 maybe it didn't, I'd never felt big headed. I, you know, hand wringing about, you know, yes, 308 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:38,160 yes, all right, I did get these A's and whatever, and that degree and so on and so forth. But I've 309 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:44,320 never been a straight A student and I, you know, I got a 2.1 in my degree, I didn't get a first. 310 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:52,880 But they never, neither did they ever say, my parents never said, what went wrong? Why didn't 311 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:59,120 you get a first for all our money? They never did that. But neither did they feel like they had to 312 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:06,880 say, oh, you should be revising more. I was left to find my own way in education in terms of all 313 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:14,240 the support, that hidden support and sort of confidence that they gave me to do that and the 314 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:21,120 reasons why I should do that, but never with a carrot or a stick. So they gave you a strong 315 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,800 reason why you should educate yourself, but they didn't tell you how to educate yourself. They 316 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,080 didn't tell me how, they left that up to me. I think that's quite a nice kind of metaphor for 317 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,520 leadership though, isn't it? I think giving people a reason to work towards something and a reason 318 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:43,840 to achieve something, but letting them decide exactly how they do it is often one of the most 319 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:49,760 powerful leadership strategies, I think. So well done, mum and dad. Turns out our parents can be 320 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:56,320 surprising when we look back. Our teenage selves would not have seen that. And my own teenage 321 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,920 children, I think they obviously they've grown up in a different world, but we've tried very hard 322 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:08,400 not to force them to revise. If anything, it's a bit more like Matilda in our house where we say, 323 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:14,640 are you still revising? Don't you need to go to the pub? Is there something that you would like to 324 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:21,360 share kind of out there in the world, through this podcast, something that you've learned 325 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,040 through your career or your kind of leadership experiences that you would want to kind of put 326 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,120 out there? We had a lot of resistance about putting the scanners in the lorries and driving 327 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:37,600 them around more deprived parts of the county. And we did it and we proved that it worked. And 328 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,920 now the government have rolled it out as a national screening program. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. 329 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,920 The next two that are coming down the pipeline are genetic testing, because if you can identify 330 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:53,280 people who are at risk, you can give them more support, as in more screening or more early 331 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:59,920 warning symptoms, more lifestyle advice to make the cancer is a disease of thresholds. And it 332 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:05,920 takes multiple things for you to tip over a threshold and for a cancer to form. So early 333 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:14,400 warning is absolutely key. So bringing that into our more standard care in the UK would be brilliant. 334 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:21,520 And then exercise after diagnosis of cancer. So many studies have shown how worthwhile that is. 335 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:28,800 And it's not, people don't see it as some people don't see it as academic research, but it's just 336 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,800 the same way of priming your immune system as the modern molecular drugs do. It's just an additional 337 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:41,280 way. You don't do it instead of you do it as well as because your own body, the human body is super 338 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,520 capable of dealing with aberrant cells, mutated cells. And it does it on a day to day basis. 339 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,720 It's just every now and again, one escapes and becomes a tumor. If you can prime your immune 340 00:33:52,720 --> 00:34:01,440 system by doing exercise, either pre any cancers or once you've had a cancer diagnosis doing it 341 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:07,520 afterwards, you really significantly improve your chances of surviving that cancer and being 342 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:14,320 healthier on the other side as well. This isn't a replacement therapy. That would be bonkers. Why 343 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,200 would we go against all that research led stuff that has led through clinical trials to the 344 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,280 treatments that we have the very effective treatments that we have for cancer today. 345 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,760 But there are the new class of drugs that are coming along down the track, we're already in 346 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,600 clinical use now. And the immuno oncology space are about priming your immune system to get your 347 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:40,480 own immune system to tackle your cancer and exercise after diagnosis does that. So do that. 348 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,880 And it is empowering and people can do it for themselves. But you've got to have people to 349 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:51,440 believe that it works. And that that is really key because that will keep people doing it. 350 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:58,480 Cancer patients will tell you that one of the three things they worry about the most is the 351 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:04,080 cancer coming back. The second is their family and the third is pain. If you look at cancer studies, 352 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:10,720 the world over. But if we can help people reduce that risk of a cancer coming back, then I will 353 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:17,760 pour our heart and soul into doing that. And that is really having a massive impact on the 354 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:25,520 world, isn't it? So I think you are very impressively achieving your goals, which is wonderful. 355 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,560 You know, I thought I thought you were going to spend your life in a lab, actually. So I feel 356 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,320 very proud of you and very grateful that you've shared your story here with us today. It's been 357 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:42,880 fascinating. And I hope that people can hear within it some of those factors that have helped you 358 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:48,960 along the way and that you didn't start out necessarily as this budding CEO at 20 who was 359 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:56,240 always going to lead an organization. Actually, this has been an evolving journey of experiences 360 00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:01,120 that have brought you here and made you the person you are today and giving you the leadership style 361 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,360 that you have, which is obviously working incredibly well for you at the moment. So that's 362 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:12,400 brilliant. As a final kind of question, can I ask who else would you recommend comes along and speaks 363 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,760 to us on leadership journeys? Are there other female leaders that you think, oh, you should 364 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:25,840 speak to her because you find them impressive? The lady I would recommend to speak to is Dame 365 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:34,400 Callie Palmer. She's the NHS England cancer director. She's also the chief executive of the 366 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:41,520 Royal Marsden. And she is awesome. She was here actually about a week ago in the building. And 367 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:50,400 she's she has the brain of size of two planets, NATO universe. But she's also really human in her 368 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:58,160 approach. She's very people focused. She's got emotional intelligence coming out of her paws. 369 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:05,360 And yet she does this very serious, very big job. And I am definitely I was like fan girl when she 370 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,720 was in the building. I am in awe of that woman. And I really enjoyed spending a few hours with her. 371 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,120 That's brilliant. Thank you, Callie. We're coming your way. Thank you, Dr. Catherine Scott. This 372 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,000 has been lovely. Great. Actually, I've learned more about you. This is nice. It's been really 373 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:29,040 it's been really lovely having you along. Thank you. Coming up next time, there's always another 374 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:35,600 way. That would be my advice to anyone really. And you know, as one door closes, I know it's 375 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:43,120 cliche, but another one can open as long as you're looking for that door and don't allow 376 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:52,960 anybody to tell you you cannot do it.