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Welcome to Leadership Journeys.

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I'm psychologist Leona Deakin,

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and I'm delving into the minds of successful women

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to find out how they've achieved the things that they have.

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In our last episode, we heard from Chief Crown Prosecutor

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Siobhán Blake.

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She talked about how being driven to change the world

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and also having an optimistic outlook was so critical

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for helping her to work in the very emotionally charged job

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of prosecuting violent crimes against women.

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In this episode...

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I suddenly realised they're all blokes.

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And I actually went through the whole list of 5,000

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and I could find 73 women.

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So I said to my boss,

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we haven't got any women in the sample.

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And he said, we don't want to study about sex and stuff.

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Just get on with it.

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If you want to do it, do it in your own time.

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Say that to me, it was red flag to a bull.

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I'd like to be the kind of person that does affirmations before bed,

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but, you know, I can't be bothered.

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Is it possible

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to be a great leader using traditionally feminine qualities,

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things like empathy and collaboration?

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Or do we all need to be hard lined, risk taking strategic thinkers?

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Today on Leadership Journeys, we have two for the price of one.

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We have the wonderful Professor Beverly Alamo Metcalf,

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who's a psychologist that has specialised in leadership

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and done groundbreaking research in what it means to be a great leader.

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And her lovely daughter, Juliette Alamo Metcalf,

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who is a chief executive of their company Real World Group.

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Welcome, ladies.

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Thank you very much.

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So we have three psychologists in a room.

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I was just wondering, is there a collective noun for that?

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Do we know? Like, what would that be?

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An anxiety of psychologists?

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Yes, I was thinking an analysis,

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but I think an anxiety is better than that.

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So it's lovely to have you both along with us.

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Better if I can start with yourself.

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So with Leadership Journeys, we're really looking at people's journey

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towards where they've got to in their career.

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You're now an emerita professor of leadership studies

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with the University of Leeds.

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At what point in your background did you decide on psychology?

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Was that something from school or university?

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It was definitely from school.

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I went to a kind of strict confidence school in Wimbledon.

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And every fortnight we had marks in front of the whole school.

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600 girls were in the main hall,

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and we were called by each form to come forward.

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And then those people who had A average over the previous fortnight

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get clapped.

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Then those who A minus come forward and stand in front of those who had A

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and got clapped.

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And then we go to the B pluses.

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And every fortnight myself and another girl,

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I better not mention her name because I found her on the web the other day,

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we were lucky if we got a B minus.

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We're usually C plus average.

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And this happened every fortnight, even as an 11-year-old,

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my first daughter.

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I mean, it terrified me because I was always last in the class.

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Such public failure.

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I was so in front of the whole school.

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Every time, every fortnight I've been called out.

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And people used to put all sorts of things in their shoes

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to try and faint or find some excuse to get off.

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We called it fortnightly marks.

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But I got so angry as time went on in the school at the crassness

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and the lack of sensitivity of the nuns and the other teachers

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to not understand what damage it does to the children who

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come lower in the class.

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And it actually made me very angry.

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And it drove me wanting to work with young people, with kids,

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and with children who had low self-esteem.

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And I wanted to be an educational psychologist.

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I thought, I'm going to be an educational psychologist

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and find out, explore more the basis of children's self-esteem

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and self-concept.

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That's why I wanted to become a psychologist.

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I didn't quite know exactly what it was.

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But I thought, I'm going to try and do psychology.

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But sadly, I failed at school.

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Perhaps unsurprisingly, I left school with one A level grade

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E. So you can't become an educational psychologist.

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I am so surprised by this story, Beverly,

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having known you for a number of years.

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And what a great academic you are.

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I think it gives all of us who have struggled at school hope.

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But fortunately, amazingly, there was this training college

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opening up the year that I left school in Yorkshire,

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because I used to live in Surrey.

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And you could do psychology and do education

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and become a teacher.

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In order to be a psychologist, actually,

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you have to be a teacher for a couple of years.

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So I applied to that school at the college.

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And I got in on one A level grade E.

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Amazing.

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And then I studied psychology and education.

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And I absolutely loved it.

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You could see the personal benefit because

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of what you'd been through.

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Do you think that experience gave you

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any particular resilience?

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Or did it just leave a kind of negative mark behind?

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Did it give you anything positive,

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do you think, when you look back?

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Yes, I think it gave me a focus.

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The rebellion against things that I

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thought were hypocritical or ridiculous rules

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and petty regulations enabled me to focus very much on my values

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and saying, well, I'm going to do something about it.

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And I think we can improve things.

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Yeah, and going to change the world in my own way.

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Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Yeah.

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So it's very modestly.

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And that young version of Beverly,

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who got the place on the course in Yorkshire,

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what would she have thought about you ending up as a professor?

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Oh, I mean, there's no way.

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Absolutely no.

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One A level grade E. Always the last in the class.

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Because that was the academic self-image that I had.

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It was a failure.

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But I knew that I probably had something

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to offer with kids in the classroom.

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So I thought, at least I can be a teacher.

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And I really, really loved my teaching practice.

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Having come from the leafy suburbs of Surrey

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and then doing teaching practice in places like Dewsbury

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and Bristol and that way, as they say in Yorkshire,

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I just loved being with kids, particularly those

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who were quite challenging.

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And gifted in ways other than academic,

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but were rebellious themselves.

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I loved just listening to their stories

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and kind of giving them some acknowledgement of what they

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were was unique.

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There was something great about them as well.

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And I really loved spending time.

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Because when I eventually did my final teaching practice,

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I was working in a secondary modern school

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that was called at the time in Dewsbury.

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Very challenging family backgrounds

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for many of the kids.

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And I wanted to work with the children who

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were regarded as remedial was the term.

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It was that hideous term.

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And it was wonderful.

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They could write stories.

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Spelling might not have been terribly accurate,

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but they could write stories.

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And I remember reading out a story once to the class.

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I said, let's listen to this story that's so and so written.

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And I read it out.

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I said, do you know that's brilliant?

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That's better than I could have written at your age.

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And I expect you to go to university.

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And they sort of laughed and giggled.

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Years later, that young woman, Bernadette,

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came up to me in the department store in Leeds and said,

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are you Miss Salome?

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I said, well, yes, I was.

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I changed my name, but yes.

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She said, I'm Bernadette, whatever it was.

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And I said, oh, Bernadette, yeah, you're

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at such and such a school in Dewsbury.

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I said, so what are you doing?

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She said, I'm a medical student.

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I said, oh my god, that's wonderful.

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She said, you won't remember this,

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but one day you read out my essay.

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And I was in the remedial group.

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And you said, I expect you to go to university.

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And you didn't laugh.

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And she said, I always wanted to be a doctor,

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but nobody in my family, nobody said

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that you can go to university.

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So that really fiercely drove my ambition

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to work as an educational psychologist.

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But I had this dilemma, 1A level, couldn't do the BA degree,

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except somebody said to me at college,

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if you do a second A level and pass before in your first year,

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because it was going to be a three year teacher training,

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if you do an A level and pass it,

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you can do the BA degree and stay on for the fourth year.

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So I said, well, what A level?

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They said, well, why didn't you do maths or French?

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Well, I failed those.

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Why didn't you do this?

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Why didn't you do art?

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Well, I failed that in second year.

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They said, but at least, just have a try.

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I thought, God, I haven't got to memorise anything.

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I'll just do it.

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Why not?

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I'd do it.

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And I was rubbish at art.

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But I got my second A level, E, grade E in art.

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Brilliant.

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And that's what enabled me to do a BA to then work as a teacher.

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So by hook or by crook, Bev, you were

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going to become the person that could help those children,

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weren't you?

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You were going to become that psychologist.

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So there was a drive going on there.

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And also a willingness, it sounds like,

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to just take any opportunity in any avenue,

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even if it wasn't maybe the traditional one.

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So I think what's fascinating in what you wanted to find out

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was that whole thing of the basis of self-esteem.

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And there's so much out there, isn't there,

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about in that kind of self-help psychology world

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about self-esteem, the importance of it, how to build it?

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What did you learn about children and their self-esteem?

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And what helps to build it?

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I think one of the most powerful areas that I read about

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was about the power of expectations

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of significant others on children.

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Teachers are significant others.

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Parents, obviously, are significant others.

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And the expectations of those people,

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authority figures around us, or people who care for us,

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has a profound impact.

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What they expect of us, positive or negative,

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we are likely to fulfill.

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It influences the way our self-beliefs.

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And I read some fascinating articles

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about Pygmalion in the classroom and the power of teachers'

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expectations on children's school achievement.

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If the teachers had negative expectations,

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the children achieved very poorly.

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But if they had positive expectations,

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they achieved beyond expectation.

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And so that tied in absolutely to my anger

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about the school and the expectations of the teachers

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and how publicly they were denigrating the kids.

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And you can see that.

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I mean, that's not just children, is it?

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That's also adults.

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I'm just thinking of a lot of the work

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that we do as psychologists when you're

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working with an individual and you're coaching an individual.

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And you are giving them that positive reassurance

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about their ideas, about what they want to do.

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And you're being that person, maybe,

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that's got a positive expectation of them.

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And sometimes you see that transform

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in how they go out into the world,

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because you give them someone who's a cheerleader, maybe,

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in some respects.

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That's absolutely right.

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That's why that takes me to the next stage in my career, which

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I suddenly realized leadership is not just

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about the power of teachers on kids.

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00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,000
It's about, in any organization or any relationship,

262
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,200
the power that a great boss has on their colleagues,

263
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,360
on their staff.

264
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,240
That's why I got so excited about leadership.

265
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,920
I thought, my god, it can be in any organization in the world.

266
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,560
This is exactly we can transform organization society

267
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,640
by getting leaders, the right people as bosses.

268
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,320
I just love the enthusiasm.

269
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,000
And I have to say, because I'm a massive fan girl of yours,

270
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,480
Beverly, as I'm sure you know.

271
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,040
And I think you, when I was a young psychologist hearing

272
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,160
you talk about how great leadership happens

273
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,760
at every level, it's not just that senior person who's

274
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:26,960
the charismatic leader on the hill.

275
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,080
It's every single line manager, every single team leader

276
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,400
is having that impact on us, raising our stress,

277
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,680
raising our motivation, raising up all those things going on.

278
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,600
So I mean, just brilliant.

279
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,520
I just wanted to jump to Juliet here,

280
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,160
because I'm just watching you watch your mom talking about.

281
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,400
Did you know that she had that experience at school?

282
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,040
Is that something she talked about to you?

283
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,440
Yeah, no, she does talk about it.

284
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,240
And I think she sort of brings it often into her presentation

285
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,120
when she talks about leadership in general.

286
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,040
And I think it's a really, I think

287
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,560
people find it quite inspiring to hear that you don't

288
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:02,440
have to be academic.

289
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,880
You don't have to have a certain background

290
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,160
and a certain aptitude for school or education

291
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:09,240
in order to succeed.

292
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,360
So yeah, no, she does talk about that.

293
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,200
My academic career was a lot easier,

294
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,480
especially given that I had two academic parents.

295
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,000
There was a lot more support because of their aptitude

296
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,680
for and their interest in education,

297
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:21,400
especially post-school.

298
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:22,560
And so I benefited from it.

299
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,000
So I didn't have the same challenges,

300
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,200
but totally, it's inspiring, isn't it,

301
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:27,720
to hear her talk about that.

302
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,040
What's really fascinating me about you, though, Juliet,

303
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,760
is having a mom that was a psychologist.

304
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,760
And John was a psychologist too, wasn't he?

305
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,240
Did you have any choice?

306
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:36,680
Could you have gone to be a dentist?

307
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:39,480
Was that on the table?

308
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,360
Yeah, well, absolutely.

309
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,360
I did originally want to be a lawyer.

310
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,320
And I sort of got to kind of 15, 16,

311
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,120
that would be the career that I would take.

312
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,280
And I think it was something about,

313
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,560
I thought it'd be fun to wear a wig and the gown

314
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:53,880
and all that kind of thing.

315
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,120
And stand up and argue.

316
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,040
But then I sort of,

317
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,120
because my parents talked about psychology

318
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,320
with such passion and enthusiasm,

319
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,200
from different angles,

320
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,160
like, you know,

321
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,600
they would talk about the education psychology,

322
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:06,440
things like that.

323
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,240
And they would talk about my mom.

324
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,520
I do call her mom at home, but just on this point,

325
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,440
for the purposes of work and the podcast,

326
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:13,880
I call her Bev.

327
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,560
She would talk about leadership and transactional analysis

328
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,320
and, you know,

329
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,960
pigmailing effect and things like that.

330
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,280
And so I already found it really, really fascinating.

331
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,880
And I guess I was slightly concerned that,

332
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,840
I think I had a misperception about what law was going to be.

333
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:30,760
I thought that there was,

334
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,800
I thought I was going to enjoy the research and everything.

335
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,680
I think I confused barristers with solicitors.

336
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,560
And when I heard about the reality of being a barrister,

337
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,240
I thought, actually, you know, that's not me.

338
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,560
I'd rather do the research thing.

339
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,400
So I ended up,

340
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,200
I was going to do psychology anyways,

341
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,440
a first degree,

342
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,880
so that I'd be a specialist in law

343
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,000
of one kind or another.

344
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000
Well, psychology, obviously.

345
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,680
But then I kind of got a bit hooked,

346
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,160
and especially in my third year,

347
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,840
when I did took the module in occupational psychology.

348
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,080
Then, yeah, that's when I kind of decided

349
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,480
that that was the career for me.

350
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,000
I did have a conversation with somebody

351
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,600
about doing a masters in law instead,

352
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,240
but now I don't know what it was.

353
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,080
I think it was, yeah,

354
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:10,960
it was in the enthusiastic passion

355
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:11,800
that they both had for psychology.

356
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:12,880
I can imagine.

357
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,160
I mean, just hearing Bev talk just now, you could see.

358
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,720
You mentioned about the pigmailing effect.

359
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,280
So Pigmailing is the novel that My Fair Lady was based on.

360
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:21,120
That's right.

361
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,640
So the pigmailing effect in psychology,

362
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,280
presumably that's all about changing people's environment

363
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,160
and that affecting how they see themselves

364
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,480
or how they behave.

365
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:31,920
Probably better if Bev explains,

366
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,120
is that there's quite a famous piece of research

367
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,320
around expectations in school and pigmailing.

368
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:37,160
Do you want to explain?

369
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:38,000
That's right.

370
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,800
Yes, the study was called Pigmailing in the Classroom.

371
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,920
And it was about a school in New York

372
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,840
where the head teacher and her staff were concerned.

373
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,280
The school was located in a very disadvantaged area.

374
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,280
And she wanted to understand why some of the kids

375
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:56,760
were underachieving.

376
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,440
So the psychologists came into the school,

377
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:00,800
Rosenthal and Jacobson,

378
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,680
and they distributed an intelligence questionnaire

379
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,120
to the children.

380
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,120
And they said to the teachers,

381
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,000
we'd like to test out how valid this instrument is

382
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,520
because it's quite difficult to test children's intelligence

383
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:14,360
at a young age.

384
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,640
So we're going to divide the children into three groups,

385
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,080
high-performing, high levels of intelligence.

386
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,440
Those are average and those are low level.

387
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,240
And we want different teachers

388
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,640
to work with the different groups.

389
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,360
And we'll come back in a couple of weeks

390
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,880
and assess the kids in terms of what they've learned

391
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,400
over the previous two weeks.

392
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,200
The children, inverted commas,

393
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,680
of high academic intelligence exceeded way beyond

394
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,120
the children quotes of low intelligence.

395
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,280
And the teachers said, well, that's a good test, isn't it?

396
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,440
And the psychologist said, well, what do you mean?

397
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,440
We've randomly allocated the children to the groups.

398
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,040
The only thing that's different is what?

399
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,200
Our expectations.

400
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,240
You were told these kids were bright.

401
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,000
You were told these kids weren't.

402
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,200
And their children performed exactly to your expectations.

403
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,360
That study, Pygmalion in the classroom,

404
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:07,480
is named after the My Fair Lady

405
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,080
in the story of Pygmalion,

406
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,040
and transforming a statue because of his love for the statue.

407
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,880
So it's had a very powerful impact, very powerful impact.

408
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,600
But psychology is a lot in psychology.

409
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,880
Now there's a bit that was repeated

410
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,360
in Harvard Business Review study

411
00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:26,160
of psychology and management,

412
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,840
where different managers were allocated

413
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,600
to different groups of staff.

414
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,720
And they were told these are really high performing staff,

415
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,600
and others were told, well, a bit low, the average,

416
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:37,440
and so on.

417
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:38,260
And guess what?

418
00:17:38,260 --> 00:17:41,160
The staff performed exactly according to their expectations.

419
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,960
I think there's a deep moral and ethical responsibility

420
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,960
for anybody, any leadership position, supervisor,

421
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,080
team lead, actually any human being,

422
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,000
to be aware that your expectations of me,

423
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,640
or other people in your team,

424
00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,040
will have a powerful impact on my belief in myself.

425
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,360
Because, and psychology time after time after time

426
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,680
shows, provides evidence,

427
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,400
that if we have negative expectations of people,

428
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,160
we will only see the negatives.

429
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,720
They won't perform as effectively

430
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,320
if we have positive expectations.

431
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,040
And so much so that people who are supported by bosses

432
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,620
or team leads, who have positive expectations of them,

433
00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:27,440
surprise themselves in what they can achieve.

434
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,480
Because there's so much self-confidence and respect

435
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,320
that is transmitted as well as, I believe you can do this.

436
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,840
You know, I also respect, I value you, you're unique.

437
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,440
This is critical what you do.

438
00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:43,880
So all that is transferred in that.

439
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,600
And that's what leadership is all about.

440
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,040
Oh yeah, and I can relate to that just from my best ever boss

441
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,440
that I had in my personal life,

442
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,960
who was a guy who would push me out of my comfort zone.

443
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,760
And some of the things that he sent me off to do on my own

444
00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,280
as a consultant were terrifying.

445
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,200
And I'd be driving along in my car,

446
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,760
but remembering that he was like, I'm right here.

447
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,320
If you need me, pick up the phone, but you've got this.

448
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,320
You can do this.

449
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,400
And I didn't believe I could do it,

450
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,160
but the fact he believed I could do it

451
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,280
meant I got in my car and I went and did it.

452
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,120
And I didn't know.

453
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:14,960
And did it well, I bet.

454
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,320
It was like a magic trick.

455
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,440
I don't know, you'd have to ask the clients, Julia.

456
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,400
I'm not sure, but hopefully I managed to just get through it

457
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,800
without, you know, particularly messing up.

458
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,560
Can we do that for ourselves,

459
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:26,880
have that positive expectation?

460
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,520
So does that have to come from somebody else?

461
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,680
I think it raises a really important point.

462
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,000
It's what's going on in our head

463
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,680
in terms of how we talk to ourselves too.

464
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,280
And one thing that we mention regularly

465
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,680
is that the power of optimism and positivity is profound,

466
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,440
not only in terms of leadership

467
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,240
and your expectations of your colleagues and your team,

468
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,920
but when you go to bed at night,

469
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,880
and you know, are you the sort of person who goes through,

470
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,560
I think, oh my God, I didn't do that right.

471
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,520
Oh, I forgot to do that.

472
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,400
Oh, look at the way I looked.

473
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,080
I just didn't say that.

474
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,640
And we go through this litany of negative things

475
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,240
that we remember.

476
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,160
And we don't remember the positive things.

477
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,480
And I remember somebody once saying,

478
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,040
if you had a friend who talked to you

479
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,280
the way you talk to yourself,

480
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,400
would you go around with them?

481
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,480
Because we are, you know, our brain is absorbing

482
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,120
the positives and the negatives.

483
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:16,440
It becomes the truth.

484
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,360
Garbage in is garbage out, and you get garbage out.

485
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,720
So internal self-talk is absolutely critical.

486
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,120
And remembering that that voice in your head is you.

487
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,200
I think some people think that comes from somewhere else,

488
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,120
like some kind of remote knower of all things.

489
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:36,760
But it's actually you talking to you, isn't it?

490
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:37,320
That's right.

491
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:37,640
Yeah.

492
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,480
Absolutely.

493
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,040
So let's talk about the leadership research then.

494
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,320
Well, tell us a little bit about your leadership study,

495
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,800
because it was quite a unique study, wasn't it?

496
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,280
Yes, it was.

497
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,480
It was a bit groundbreaking.

498
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,120
So tell us a little bit about that, why that was special.

499
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:54,200
Well, one thing I should mention is that when I did my PhD,

500
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,040
which was in leadership, and it was published in 1980,

501
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,880
finished in 1982.

502
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,160
Sorry, I viewed the research that existed at the time.

503
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,600
It was all American.

504
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,640
And it was all based on basically white men

505
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,240
studying white men.

506
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,680
I was the kind of grafted during the research.

507
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,760
And I looked through the names.

508
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,760
We got a whole print out of the names of the people who

509
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,960
we would be sending surveys to.

510
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,800
I suddenly realized they're all blokes.

511
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:23,600
They're male.

512
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,480
There are very, very few females.

513
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,560
And I actually went through the whole list of 5,000.

514
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:34,960
And I could find 73 women, females, in that list of 5,000.

515
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,600
Now, at that time, books were just

516
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,360
starting to come out on how organizations

517
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:46,480
are different for women than for men in terms of your experience.

518
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,320
A very important book came out written

519
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,560
by Judy Marshall, a psychologist in Bath,

520
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,800
called Women Managers, colon, Travelers in the Male World,

521
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,720
talking about how different organizational socialization

522
00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,760
was for women and men.

523
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,080
And several other books, Carol Gilligan in the States

524
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,680
was writing about.

525
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,320
We have very masculine cultures and the masculine criteria

526
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,720
for how to do the job and behave and all that kind of stuff.

527
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,440
So I thought, well, we're doing a study of career development

528
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,640
in British managers.

529
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,760
We should have women in the sample as well.

530
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,000
And we should know about their career.

531
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,520
So I said to my senior researcher colleague, who is my boss,

532
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,760
I said, we haven't got any women in the sample.

533
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,760
The literature is talking about women's experiences.

534
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,160
It's different for men, shouldn't we?

535
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,560
And he said, we don't want to study about sex and stuff.

536
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:33,560
Just get on with it.

537
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,880
I said, well, but the literature is saying it's different.

538
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,920
They said, well, if you want to do it, do it in your own time.

539
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,240
And you say that to me, it was red flag to a bull.

540
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,720
We couldn't do it because it's about sex

541
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,720
and we don't have the time.

542
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,960
And that kind of narrow mindedness, bigotry.

543
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:53,680
I did do it.

544
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,640
So I sent out, I contacted women in medicine, women in media,

545
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,480
women in finance, women in the BBC.

546
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,720
I managed to get an advert in Cosmopolitan.

547
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,880
And I had a great ambition to be in Cosmopolitan

548
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,560
for another reason, actually.

549
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,800
It was multiple orgasms, is what I wanted to be in.

550
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,440
Because they were talking every article in Cosmo.

551
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,360
Very Cosmo.

552
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:20,720
But I was inviting women, please,

553
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,680
we need women managers, women managers.

554
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,760
So we got a massive sample of women managers in the end

555
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,520
to complete it as well as men.

556
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,160
And we distributed the survey and we

557
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:35,480
found that what motivates men were more things like finance,

558
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,800
money, security, reward, opportunities for ambition,

559
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,280
career ambition and stuff.

560
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,040
For women, it was about being developed,

561
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,000
having opportunities to lead teams.

562
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,000
It was all about relationships, basically.

563
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,240
The quality of relationships at work and the culture

564
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,640
were the ones that drove their career.

565
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,600
I wanted to make a difference.

566
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,640
And so while I elicited, I then went

567
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,040
on to elicit constructs of leadership.

568
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,000
What makes a boss with men and women?

569
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280
And got them to talk about their best boss and their worst boss

570
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,760
and the bosses in between.

571
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,360
Say, what do they do differently?

572
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,160
We found that the male characteristics in general,

573
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,960
the themes were about being analytical, being ambitious,

574
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:28,560
being a high level of cognitive complexity, political skills,

575
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:29,440
so risk taking.

576
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,920
And the women were things like honest and transparent,

577
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,200
wants to take others with them, is

578
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,840
passionate about developing their stuff.

579
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,240
Totally different concepts of what

580
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,320
makes a good and a bad boss.

581
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240
And so I kind of skipped from the career development study

582
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,600
to the research that we did around,

583
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,440
I did when I was at Leeds on how men and women perceive

584
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,360
leadership differently.

585
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,480
And yet I said, but all the leadership models

586
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,320
are American based on men, studying men.

587
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,800
And largely in the US corporations,

588
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,840
I was concerned that we, I was running programs,

589
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,380
we're talking about leadership, using the American models,

590
00:25:09,380 --> 00:25:11,300
because they were the only ones that existed.

591
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,200
So you did your own research.

592
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,200
I did our own research.

593
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,640
And this was, am I right in saying

594
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,280
this was the largest piece of research outside of the states

595
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,960
at that point that had been done on leadership?

596
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,880
I mean, even outside, including the states,

597
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,640
it was the very first, it was the largest study ever

598
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,520
of understanding what is the nature of leadership.

599
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,420
We wanted the research to not be about asking bosses

600
00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:37,000
what makes them great.

601
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,600
We wanted to ask staff, what is it

602
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,040
that made the difference for you?

603
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,400
Think of bosses who've had a really powerful, positive

604
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,160
impact on your self confidence, your sense of fulfillment,

605
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,680
your motivation, your well-being at work, engagement,

606
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,520
all those positive things, job satisfaction.

607
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,880
Think about the best bosses you've had and the worst

608
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,360
and those in between.

609
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,440
What is it that, how did they differ?

610
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,960
If you want to talk about leadership,

611
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,920
it's about how I influenced you or my team,

612
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,880
then don't ask me what makes me a great leader.

613
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,440
Ask my colleagues, my staff.

614
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,280
Ask your staff.

615
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,800
And so what did you discover?

616
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,600
What did people say?

617
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,680
And it was the first deliberately inclusive study.

618
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:20,240
We're sorry.

619
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,240
Yes, no, sorry, carry on.

620
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,640
But we were determined for it to be gender inclusive,

621
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,960
but also by ethnic background inclusive, by level,

622
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,800
by occupation group, by age, by sexual orientation.

623
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,080
We wanted to be as diverse a population as possible.

624
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,920
It became the largest investigation ever

625
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:37,680
of leadership.

626
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,400
It involved initially 4 and 1 half thousands of people

627
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,720
in the NHS and local government.

628
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,800
But we then were asked to do the similar research in FTSE 100

629
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,360
companies.

630
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,760
And so we listed constructs of leadership for men and women

631
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,200
in FTSE 100 companies.

632
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,680
Came out the same model of leadership.

633
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,000
So eventually the whole sample became around 6,000.

634
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,160
But the model of leadership that had emerged,

635
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560
the behaviors were upside down of the heroic.

636
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,840
It was much more like the servant model of leadership

637
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,120
in the sense that it was much more complex than the heroic

638
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:12,840
ones.

639
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,560
It's about how can I create the environment

640
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,320
and the conversations for my colleagues, for my team

641
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,160
to give their best?

642
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,200
And how can I strengthen their self-confidence,

643
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,320
their sense of job satisfaction, their sense of fulfillment,

644
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,480
their sense of feeling valued, realizing what they do

645
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,720
is absolutely critical, and increasing their effectiveness,

646
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,880
supporting their development and coaching?

647
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,400
It was a completely upside down from the heroic.

648
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,360
And we call that model engaging leadership.

649
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:47,720
And we don't know whether it's different because it

650
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,760
was done in the UK, whether it was done.

651
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,360
I mean, it wasn't to do with the sector,

652
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:54,200
because the FTSE 100 companies were saying exactly the same

653
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:54,840
thing.

654
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,640
People were saying, you can say throw money at you

655
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,000
if they want to motivate you.

656
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,160
But we haven't got the time to use the money.

657
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,560
And we've got enough money anyway.

658
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,120
If only they would say thank you.

659
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,920
If only they would ask for opinions.

660
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,240
If only they would listen to us.

661
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,400
If only they would show some appreciation.

662
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,320
So this new model of engaging leadership

663
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,600
kind of exploded in the sense that we

664
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,800
published the academic articles.

665
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,680
And people became very excited and interested in it.

666
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,080
And as it happened, Leeds University,

667
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,800
the vice chancellor at the time, Alan Wilson,

668
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,040
was keen that professors formed spin out companies so

669
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,480
that we could translate research into something

670
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,560
of value to society.

671
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,600
So we were encouraged to form a university spin out company,

672
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,560
which we did do.

673
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:41,840
And that was the real world group.

674
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:42,360
2001.

675
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,120
And that has become known as the real world group.

676
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,720
So before we ask Juliette about that,

677
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,280
because that's her baby now, isn't it?

678
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,440
Showing a genuine interest.

679
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:51,600
Showing a genuine interest.

680
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,080
Showing genuine concern.

681
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,400
That was a behavior that.

682
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,760
That's one of the 14 that we've mentioned.

683
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,080
But that was the most important one, absolutely.

684
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,800
It's all about valuing and showing genuine concern

685
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,920
and understanding what it's like being me in the organization.

686
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,760
So the boss and trying to understand what it was like.

687
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,800
See the world through my eyes.

688
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,760
That's what it's about.

689
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,640
It's about being like a good parent, frankly.

690
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,040
It's everyday stuff that we should be doing.

691
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,760
Yeah, it's the positive expectations, coaching.

692
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,600
All those things.

693
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,200
Yes, absolutely.

694
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,280
When I'm coaching as a psychologist,

695
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,600
I often use your research question.

696
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,640
When I'm working with a leader, let's say,

697
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,280
who isn't having the impact that the organization

698
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,640
might want them to, or maybe they don't want that impact.

699
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,200
They don't know why it's happening.

700
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,200
And I will often say, tell me about your best

701
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,000
ever line manager.

702
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,920
And the qualities that come out, they'll be,

703
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,800
oh, well, it was someone who had time for me,

704
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,480
who listened to me, who actually knew

705
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,000
what was going on in my life, who knew my ambitions,

706
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,840
who knew what I was good at.

707
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,040
And it's always, and then you're like,

708
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,880
okay, so how were they doing that?

709
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,480
And it's such a powerful, because I think,

710
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,280
sometimes our concept of what a leader is

711
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,960
is different to our lived experience of being led.

712
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,040
Yes, absolutely.

713
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,480
And I think that was the lovely thing about your research.

714
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,720
And it's a very feminine,

715
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,080
stereotypically feminine behavior.

716
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,480
And yet it's something that, well,

717
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:17,880
men do it very well as well.

718
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,040
There's lots of men who show that genuine concern

719
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,080
very well, isn't there?

720
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,200
But stereotypically, it's about that relationship

721
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,520
and interest, some of those feminine qualities.

722
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:27,360
Is that right?

723
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,040
It absolutely is, but it is also,

724
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,280
I should say it's about building a shared vision together.

725
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,120
It's about encouraging people to question,

726
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,960
to challenge, to challenge each other,

727
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,320
to challenge ideas, to generate ideas.

728
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,840
So it isn't just the so-called quote, soft stuff,

729
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,520
although the soft stuff is, as somebody said,

730
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:45,920
the hard stuff actually,

731
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,800
because how do you get the best out of people?

732
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,880
But it goes beyond, and it's about dealing with,

733
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,640
how can we get different groups of stakeholders together?

734
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,640
It's about how in our team are we gonna decide

735
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,880
what are the values by which we are going to do things?

736
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,320
It's about how can we achieve high levels of effectiveness,

737
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,440
things we have to accept, but in a way which is engaging?

738
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:06,920
And how can we come up with strategies

739
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,360
for how we can do that by maintaining people's motivation?

740
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,080
It's all those things, but the important thing,

741
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,800
it is more quotes, feminine,

742
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,160
but I think we need to transform that characteristic

743
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,320
as saying this is what leadership is about.

744
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,680
But it's been, leadership has been gendered

745
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,560
as a masculine form of leadership,

746
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,720
a much more transactional task for orientated.

747
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,440
And it's tough, well, we've got to settle,

748
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,080
focus on our goals and our targets,

749
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,160
we've got to make this happen.

750
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,000
But hang on a moment,

751
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,680
we know that the most effective organisations and teams

752
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,360
are those that do it in a way which also encourages

753
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,080
the engagement of people,

754
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,200
increases their job satisfaction, their motivation,

755
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,520
their sense of ownership of these goals.

756
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,680
What I think is lovely listening to you to talk

757
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,040
about your whole career journey is,

758
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,160
not only the kind of tenaciousness,

759
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,840
I love that story of being told,

760
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,320
do it in your own time, and you're like, right, I will.

761
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,800
You just see that kind of grit in your character

762
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,360
and that unwillingness to give up on what was your ambition,

763
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,280
which was to make a difference initially to children

764
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,320
and then broadening out to making a difference

765
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,560
to just people's experience of work.

766
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,280
Having observed your dad coming home,

767
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,200
a bit brow-beaten maybe by his boss

768
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,520
and those kinds of things.

769
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,440
But then I think really the glue to all of that

770
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,480
is your passion, isn't it?

771
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,440
It's that enthusiasm.

772
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,560
When you talk about your research,

773
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,160
when you talk about the psychology,

774
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,320
you can just hear how much you love it.

775
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,240
And I think for people who are wanting to

776
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,720
make their own career as successful

777
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,320
and as rewarding as possible,

778
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720
there's a real lesson in that.

779
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,440
Follow your own passion.

780
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,480
What lights you up?

781
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,200
And then put your energy there.

782
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,440
Because so many people I work with, they're kind of bored

783
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,000
in their world and they don't really know how they ended up

784
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,200
on that particular career ladder.

785
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,880
And it isn't their passion.

786
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,680
It's maybe something that somebody at school suggested

787
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,040
they do, all these kinds of things.

788
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,320
So I think that's lovely.

789
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:07,160
That's absolutely true.

790
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,400
But I also think that people must,

791
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,640
they can do it at any time in their career.

792
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,280
The wonderful thing about life now

793
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,560
is what with hybrid working too, you can do it anywhere.

794
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,720
You can do a job in a different part of the country.

795
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,080
There are much more opportunities.

796
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,920
The world is open.

797
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,120
So go for it, even if you're 40, 50, even 60.

798
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,600
Think of things that drive you passionately.

799
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,520
You can start to forge your own path.

800
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,280
But that's why leadership must be about

801
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,040
how can I excite my colleagues

802
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,160
to follow their strengths and passions

803
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,160
when it's really tough, when life is challenging,

804
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,840
when we've got so much pressure at work.

805
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,280
How on earth?

806
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,480
And I think the way to do it is to say,

807
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,000
look, gang, this is what we have to achieve.

808
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,040
And these are the reasons why we have to make this happen.

809
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,200
But listen, there's a whole pile of different ways

810
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,360
we can make this happen.

811
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,800
Let's get together or break up into small groups and discuss,

812
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,160
how can we make this target or achieve this goal

813
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,000
in a way which is consistent with our vision and our values

814
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,080
of how we want to work together as a team?

815
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,360
So people have, they are writing their own scripts.

816
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,840
And this is what, I mean, hopefully people can tell

817
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,320
why I'm a fan girl of Beverly.

818
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,480
And if I could carry you around in my pocket

819
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,800
and just keep wheeling you out, that would be amazing.

820
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,760
How do you feel watching Juliet running

821
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:29,840
Real World Group ever?

822
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,320
Well, she's had to run it at a time when it's most complex,

823
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,320
the range of projects, the breadth of the projects.

824
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,880
And she's got so many spinning plates.

825
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,320
She's got so many different activities

826
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,400
because there are so many things that are happening.

827
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,520
But she's also, she's got to think not only about the quality

828
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,400
of, because all our instruments, our individual or team

829
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,200
instruments or culture instruments

830
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,600
are based on research.

831
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,600
She's got to keep up with the research as well as make sure

832
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,400
that our instruments, when we credit people,

833
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,560
are used properly and appropriately,

834
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,160
as well as having a strategic vision for the organization.

835
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,920
And as well as saying, well, we've

836
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,000
got to survive in terms of financially.

837
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,720
So I think she is dealing with it in a remarkable way

838
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:25,760
that neither John nor I could have done it.

839
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,680
I mean, we wouldn't have wanted to do it,

840
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:28,560
but we couldn't do it.

841
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:33,360
But I feel a little guilty that Jules has kind of helped us out

842
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,640
at a really tough time.

843
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:42,760
But fortunately, she has very genuinely and thoughtfully

844
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,080
sort of adjusted her career in order

845
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,840
to enable the company to keep running and then to grow

846
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,480
and to grow internationally.

847
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:51,800
I do genuinely enjoy it.

848
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,440
But my mom's my biggest fan girl, let's be honest.

849
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,160
She's going to think the sun shines out of my posterior.

850
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,720
And rightly so.

851
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,080
So you've got to take what she's saying with a pinch of salt.

852
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,200
But no, I genuinely do.

853
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,360
I do genuinely enjoy it.

854
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,160
I love the freedom.

855
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,480
And I love the thought of working for somebody else

856
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,960
just filled me with dread as much as it could be easier.

857
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,040
Well, you might get one of those horrible bosses.

858
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,080
Well, exactly.

859
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,800
Then I'd have the politics to deal with.

860
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,880
And I do know that I could walk away if I wanted to.

861
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,480
And it wouldn't be like, oh, god, that's

862
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,560
devastating for everybody.

863
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:21,640
It genuinely wouldn't be.

864
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,680
It would be, well, that's just the next phase

865
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,920
of our transformation as a company or in our lives.

866
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,440
But I genuinely am happy.

867
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,440
So we've sort of recently moved back

868
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,920
into a lot more consultancy, a lot more people have asked us

869
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,560
to help them by starting with top teams

870
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,040
and actually implementing our tools.

871
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,960
Because for a while, we were pivoting

872
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,440
towards trying to do pretty much only psychometric tools.

873
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,360
So we've been through a very painful growth period recently.

874
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,320
I think it's what Bev's alluding to,

875
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,160
where it's been incredibly a huge amount of work

876
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,800
to pivot from psychometric tool provision

877
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,880
to a huge amount of consulting projects,

878
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,520
and all of which is so preciously important to get

879
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:00,400
right.

880
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,720
One of our chief differentiators is just how much we care.

881
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:04,960
We just can't and we can't not, basically.

882
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,120
It has been quite painful.

883
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,520
But I've got a very supportive board.

884
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,680
And obviously, Bev's incredibly supportive.

885
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,040
And my colleagues are fantastic.

886
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,000
And we're recruiting more and more effective people to help.

887
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,600
So it feels like it's temporary.

888
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,920
And things will get easier again.

889
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,520
It's really fulfilling to have to be given the opportunities

890
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,360
that we're given to help people and to be

891
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:31,600
able to have that impact.

892
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,960
You cannot underestimate just how enriching

893
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,440
it is to have that opportunity to help people in that way.

894
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,000
Because I know you're really interested and passionate

895
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,320
about positive psychology.

896
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,200
And just listen to you talk then about you've had a tough time,

897
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,360
but it's temporary.

898
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,240
And actually, it's having a purpose and a value.

899
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,040
And it's progressively getting better.

900
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,640
And these are all the kind of tenets of positive thinking,

901
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:54,480
aren't they?

902
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,480
So as well as having supportive people around you,

903
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,960
your board, Bev, and your colleagues,

904
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,280
for you internally, in your head, your kind of way

905
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:05,800
of getting through it, have there

906
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,400
been things that have helped you stay positive

907
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,040
and committed and resilient?

908
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,480
I'd like to be the kind of person that does affirmations

909
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,680
before bed, but I can't be bothered.

910
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,080
I'm so tired.

911
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:21,640
It's lovely to hear that.

912
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,240
It makes us all feel better, Julia.

913
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,520
I guess we've always had quite a positive mindset as a family,

914
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,280
haven't we?

915
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:30,840
So I guess that really helps.

916
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,800
So it's not something intentional.

917
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,040
I mean, I guess I'm quite lucky in that way.

918
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,960
My predisposition is towards being more optimistic

919
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,560
than, and don't get me wrong, I do get down

920
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,640
when things are overwhelming and stuff like that.

921
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,720
But it's just generally like, but sometimes, I

922
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,200
think optimism can be, you'll know better than me,

923
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,760
Leona, with the work that you do.

924
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,560
Sometimes it can be counterproductive,

925
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,920
because you keep pushing for something that's never going

926
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:57,400
to happen.

927
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,360
You never give up.

928
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,320
I do, I think it's partly optimism,

929
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,440
but it's also a desire to avoid the alternative, which

930
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,400
is working with somebody else.

931
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,760
And what does that optimism mean?

932
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,160
So you had a positive mindset in the family.

933
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,560
So how does that manifest?

934
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,000
So those microbehaviors, if we were

935
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,240
to observe you as a family using that positive mindset,

936
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,280
what are the things we would see and hear?

937
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,600
That's a really great question.

938
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:22,480
I'm just trying to think.

939
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:23,600
It's hard to put my finger on it.

940
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,280
I guess we've just always been like, well,

941
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,920
I don't know, just the way.

942
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:28,120
I don't know how to express it.

943
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,040
It's a great sense of humour, though, haven't we?

944
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,080
We've always lost it.

945
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,360
Yeah, I don't know what it is.

946
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,960
It's just, well, a lot of it is actually

947
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,960
to do with my faith, I suppose.

948
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,840
Because my faith is very, very important to me.

949
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,320
It's always been.

950
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,240
But also having fun and a sense of joy in things,

951
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,520
you know, and a celebration of humanity.

952
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:49,040
I love that.

953
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,040
I think we are in an incredibly privileged position.

954
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,400
You know, A, we are incredibly lucky that we do what we feel

955
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:57,920
passionately about.

956
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,160
My god, it's so wonderful.

957
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,320
As you say, I can get excited about it so easily,

958
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,520
because I'm doing my godness.

959
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,000
I get paid for doing this sometimes.

960
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,560
I say sometimes.

961
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:17,040
But it's also, I mean, this relentless sense of optimism.

962
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,280
And I mean, realistic.

963
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,240
Sometimes it's a little unrealistic.

964
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,600
But we have a sense of deep hope and optimism

965
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,320
about being able to make things better

966
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,280
and help organisations to make them better places,

967
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,600
where people spend most of their waking hours.

968
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,720
And by the way, how they feel about work,

969
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:37,480
they take back to their family, you know,

970
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,560
and they get to spend through the kids and partners

971
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:40,640
and relationships.

972
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,480
So aren't we lucky that people enable us to come in and work

973
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,800
with the boards, with the top teams, which for us

974
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,040
has been a critical thing.

975
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,080
Our stuff is not just about leadership.

976
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,960
Leadership is also about creating the culture,

977
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,080
the way we are together, how we as colleagues work together

978
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,360
daily, the comments, the way we make our comments.

979
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,320
And even when I'm not around, so it's got to be,

980
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,560
we've got to get to the people at the top.

981
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,760
We are the only people who can say, by the way,

982
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,520
here's the feedback.

983
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,320
This is how you've rated how effective you are at articulating

984
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,200
or communicating clear vision or being an organisation that

985
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,000
values turning mistakes into learning opportunities.

986
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,880
You said how good you are, but look at what your colleagues

987
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,920
think, the people below you who are then leading

988
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,400
the people below them.

989
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,400
They don't see that.

990
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,880
Nobody other than us can actually do that to the board.

991
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,440
Nobody in the organisation can say to eyeball the execs

992
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,440
or the non-execs and say this, but we have that.

993
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,600
That is a very precious privilege,

994
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,040
but it also carries with it an enormous ethical and moral

995
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,080
responsibility.

996
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Yes.

997
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,600
So there's that perspective taking, isn't there,

998
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,320
in the way that you're looking at the things that you do

999
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,800
and the value it has, which I'm imagining

1000
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,480
means that your reset default position of optimism and hope,

1001
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,440
like you have a tough day, you go to bed,

1002
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:05,520
you haven't done your reflections,

1003
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,760
Jules, don't worry about the affirmations.

1004
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,640
You get up the next morning and the reset is hope and optimism.

1005
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,560
We have a privileged role in this.

1006
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,320
We could make a difference in this.

1007
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,960
And there's something about that reset,

1008
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,720
because we all feel down.

1009
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,080
We all feel frustrated.

1010
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,680
We all feel fed up when things aren't going our way.

1011
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,320
But it's that capacity to self-talk your way back up

1012
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,280
into something more optimistic, I think,

1013
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,840
that's really helpful, isn't it?

1014
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,440
And that's what I'm hearing you guys do just

1015
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:34,760
in how you're talking about.

1016
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:35,280
Yeah.

1017
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,600
And I was just reflecting as well,

1018
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,320
the kind of conversations we've always had as a family.

1019
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,400
We've always reflected on how lucky we are in all aspects

1020
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,120
of life, that we're just really lucky.

1021
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,080
And therefore, that's part of the passing it on thing,

1022
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,280
isn't it, the importance of passing it on,

1023
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,600
which has always been a really important sort of value

1024
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:54,120
that we've had.

1025
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,760
But yeah, it's just like you don't need to do it at night.

1026
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,680
It's just the conversations that we have about,

1027
00:42:58,680 --> 00:42:59,480
aren't we lucky?

1028
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,200
Aren't we lucky?

1029
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:01,280
That comes up a lot.

1030
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,280
And I tell that to my son.

1031
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,200
And you've always said that.

1032
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:04,840
And dad, too.

1033
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,800
We've always talked about how even though we

1034
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,360
know and think it's difficult, we're

1035
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,360
so lucky because all the things that we have got.

1036
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,680
I think that's the biggest thing that I would.

1037
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,400
It's kind of like a positive affirmation.

1038
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,480
It just doesn't happen at bedtime,

1039
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,960
like people pretend they do on Instagram or whatever it is,

1040
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,320
you know, because I watch too much of.

1041
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,880
And I'm not saying it's easy.

1042
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,480
And I don't want to try and preach about it.

1043
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,000
So I don't think it's something that it would be insensitive

1044
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,880
to say to someone who's got very difficult circumstances

1045
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,960
to say, well, just remember what you've got.

1046
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,800
Just think about how lucky you are.

1047
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,960
But it's that what I want to do in this in part

1048
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,000
is to highlight the ways of thinking that can help us.

1049
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:43,520
Well, exactly.

1050
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:44,560
To be more resilient.

1051
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,200
And I think that being optimistic and being hopeful

1052
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,440
and seeing that actually there's still some value

1053
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,320
in getting up and out and on it, even if we are going

1054
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,000
through something tough and arduous.

1055
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,320
There is something in that.

1056
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,640
It's like a juice, a fuel maybe.

1057
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,680
But as you say, Julia, it's not easy.

1058
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,520
Particularly if you're someone who's naturally

1059
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,920
maybe more pessimistic.

1060
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,800
But actually, then you've got to rewire that thinking.

1061
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,520
And we know as psychologists, that's months and years worth

1062
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,560
of effort, not hours and days.

1063
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,200
You can't just decide tomorrow I'll be an optimist

1064
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,880
and you can't flick a switch.

1065
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,040
You're going to have to really put the work into it.

1066
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:22,920
How do I think?

1067
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,000
Why do I think that way?

1068
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,080
How could I think differently?

1069
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,640
All of those things.

1070
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,960
So it is tough to do it.

1071
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,960
The fact you have it as part of your family unit

1072
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,040
and how you talk to each other, despite the fact

1073
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,680
that actually Beverly, you didn't come

1074
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,200
from this really privileged environment

1075
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,480
where you had a lovely school life.

1076
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,560
You actually at the beginning were telling us

1077
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,960
about this horrible experience of feeling really.

1078
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,480
But even so, you came out of that with some kind of inner

1079
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:46,960
positivity.

1080
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,960
Oh, maybe one to fight.

1081
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:48,800
Oh, yes, absolutely.

1082
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,440
A little scrapper coming out of the revolution.

1083
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,720
By the way, I think there are times

1084
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:56,600
we wake up also feeling awful.

1085
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,600
But I think the great thing is we can always

1086
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,320
have a conversation with somebody,

1087
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,000
whether it's one of our friends or whether it's each other.

1088
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,160
We will eventually come back to the fact,

1089
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,120
as you said to me, well, nobody's died.

1090
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,920
Nobody thought we were going through a crisis or something.

1091
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:11,840
What was the other thing?

1092
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,680
No one's gone to prison.

1093
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:13,680
No one's gone to prison.

1094
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:14,440
No one's died.

1095
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,000
We don't know.

1096
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,400
Lots of money already.

1097
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,400
It's about putting things in perspective.

1098
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,680
But I would also pick up the point

1099
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,120
that not just flicking a switch, but as Juliet said,

1100
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,440
you can change culture in a relatively short period of time

1101
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,440
if you can get the people at the top to model the behaviors

1102
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,280
or in a department, in an area.

1103
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,520
You can transform what's happening

1104
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,480
in that part of the organization.

1105
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,680
And this is the lovely thing.

1106
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,360
I think the behaviors that you talk about in your research,

1107
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,720
that's showing an interest, showing a concern,

1108
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:47,360
and that being a really core behavior.

1109
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,640
Even if you have the most domineering, autocratic,

1110
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,000
command and control character running an organization,

1111
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:58,600
you can absolutely guarantee they're

1112
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,040
showing interest and concern somewhere in their life.

1113
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,480
They're an amazing dad, an amazing granddad,

1114
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,720
a wonderful son, a brilliant brother.

1115
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,040
So we all have these facets, don't we?

1116
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,920
And we go into work and we put this hat on,

1117
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,360
which is the leader.

1118
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,600
And we leave sometimes some of those softer,

1119
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,280
as you call it, qualities behind, but they're in us.

1120
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,760
And so it's just sometimes it isn't

1121
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,400
about changing who you are.

1122
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,440
It's harnessing all that you are and bringing

1123
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,040
that other side of you where you are caring

1124
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,640
and you are interested and you do stop talking

1125
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,560
about what you want and listen to what

1126
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,960
the other person's experience is.

1127
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,600
All of those little things that, you know,

1128
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,160
everyone's doing them in some aspect of their lives.

1129
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:40,000
Absolutely right.

1130
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,880
You put it beautifully, Leona, but it's also,

1131
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,280
you can see a mega transformation in people

1132
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,200
who can be arrogant or appear arrogant

1133
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,320
or pompous or they're aggressive or whatever,

1134
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,200
when they get feedback for the very first time.

1135
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,800
And we have met people at conferences years later,

1136
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,600
still carry around there what we call TLQ 360

1137
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,400
and importance and do you remember,

1138
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,360
I got this feedback and nobody's had the courage

1139
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,200
to tell them what impact they're having on other people.

1140
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,040
And as you said, I think at the very beginning

1141
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,600
of this discussion, sometimes we can appear aggressive

1142
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,400
as a facade to protect ourselves.

1143
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,800
Or you said this, but actually it might be,

1144
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,640
you know, that can be an aggressive,

1145
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,480
somebody who's cold or removed or a bit aggressive

1146
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,840
or reacts defensively might be the person

1147
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,320
that she's very vulnerable,

1148
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,880
but isn't necessarily aware of.

1149
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,000
Or nobody's said, you know, thank you for the fact

1150
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,120
that you did over the last week,

1151
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,880
help me sort out this issue that I had that,

1152
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,280
because those sort of people probably don't attract people

1153
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,960
to have the courage to go up to them and say,

1154
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:47,560
thank you by the way for something you've done.

1155
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,520
Or say, are you aware of the fact that I feel nervous

1156
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,800
when you asked me on the spot to tell you something rather.

1157
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,560
I can't think of an answer quickly enough.

1158
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,880
And that's that whole thing,

1159
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,440
which it could be a whole other podcast, couldn't it?

1160
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,320
But that difference between our intent and our impact

1161
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:04,560
and the gap in between that.

1162
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,720
And sometimes we can think we're coming over as passionate

1163
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:09,920
and engaging and inspiring,

1164
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,080
and the recipients are going,

1165
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,360
just please get out of my face and stop micromanaging me.

1166
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,120
But you have no awareness of that,

1167
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,440
it's in your blind spot, isn't it?

1168
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,440
And that's where these 360 appraisals are so valuable

1169
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,440
where in a very confidential, safe environment,

1170
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,600
somebody external confidentially says,

1171
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,800
this is actually what you're doing.

1172
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,080
And then it enables that person to change.

1173
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,160
So, I mean, I could talk to you ladies all day,

1174
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:35,360
as you can probably tell.

1175
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,800
So, you know, reflecting back on the kind of conversations

1176
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,600
that we had as a family about being lucky,

1177
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,720
you know, Bev and I, and I bet you are too,

1178
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:46,040
Leona, are big fans of Martin Seligman,

1179
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,680
who went from studying sort of like deficits

1180
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,080
in human behavior to sort of looking at optimism.

1181
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,640
And, you know, talked about how, as you alluded to,

1182
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,080
you can sort of learn to be more optimistic in your behavior.

1183
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,720
But there are, I mean, there are things that,

1184
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:03,240
I'm just really, really always conscious about language,

1185
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:05,200
you know, and having done this master's in the States,

1186
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:06,960
which was taught by people like David Cooper,

1187
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:08,960
who you know is the world authority,

1188
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,880
or the author of Appreciative Inquiry.

1189
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,880
He talks about words create worlds.

1190
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,160
And I always carry that around.

1191
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,520
I always think to myself, you know,

1192
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,640
how I talk to myself or about the world

1193
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,080
is gonna have a profound impact.

1194
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,840
So, I've got to listen to language.

1195
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,680
And one of the things that I recently reflected on

1196
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,960
was that I wake up in the morning and I open the curtains,

1197
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,240
and I'll say to my son, oh, it's a gorgeous day today.

1198
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:35,280
Or, oh, it's a miserable day today.

1199
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,200
And I suddenly realized how crazy that is,

1200
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,040
because a miserable day, it just means it's raining.

1201
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,840
It's still a fantastic day.

1202
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,440
Yes. It's just raining.

1203
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:44,600
It's just a different day.

1204
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,680
Exactly, so I started saying,

1205
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,880
it's a great day and it's raining.

1206
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,280
And that has helped me as well to sort of,

1207
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,840
because I did get quite affected by the weather.

1208
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,560
I think, you know, many people,

1209
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:57,680
it's not all of us get affected.

1210
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,320
But something like this morning,

1211
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,560
it's like, wow, fantastic, I feel great.

1212
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,880
If it's raining and windy straight away,

1213
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,600
it's often in Geysley.

1214
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,760
It's kind of like, oh.

1215
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,760
But when I started saying just that,

1216
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,560
you know, just changing the language and the words,

1217
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,040
I genuinely think it's starting to shift my mindset

1218
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:17,480
about rainy days.

1219
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,440
And so, yeah, that kind of would be my tip to people

1220
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,160
is just be really, really conscious of the language

1221
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:24,000
that you use.

1222
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,000
And as Martin Seligman would say,

1223
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,880
go out of your way to notice what's going well.

1224
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,440
Go out of your way to notice ways in which,

1225
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:32,400
I use the word lucky,

1226
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,520
but the ways in which things that are working for you.

1227
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,520
Yeah, absolutely.

1228
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,080
And I think what you've described there

1229
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,400
is the essence of what I'd like to do with this podcast

1230
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,880
is to give people that conscious awareness

1231
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,920
of how the way they think

1232
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,600
and what they say affects their world.

1233
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:49,800
And that's language.

1234
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,520
You know, if you are talking about yourself

1235
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,480
and to yourself and about the world in negative terms,

1236
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,840
that's gonna affect you emotionally.

1237
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,200
And that all those things are linked together.

1238
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,200
And I think that's hugely powerful.

1239
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:04,880
So I wanted to ask you both

1240
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,120
what tips you would give your younger selves.

1241
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,600
So Beverly, if I come to you,

1242
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,480
so that sort of youngster,

1243
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,720
probably in school or just post-school,

1244
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:20,000
what would you say to her if you could whisper in her ear

1245
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,040
some tips about her life?

1246
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,160
The phrase that immediately comes to mind is,

1247
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:27,600
life can only get better.

1248
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,000
I suppose it's that you have strengths

1249
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,720
which you will start to discover

1250
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:37,840
as you follow what your dream is,

1251
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,400
what your ambition is.

1252
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,640
Have faith in yourself and go for it.

1253
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,480
Yeah, what a difference that might have made

1254
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,160
to her hope and optimism.

1255
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,720
Although it seemed like she did okay, Beverly, if I'm honest.

1256
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:51,080
And Juliet, how about yourself?

1257
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,080
What would you say to your younger self?

1258
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,360
I think, especially at school,

1259
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,880
I would have had less negative self-talk

1260
00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:58,880
because as I grow older,

1261
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,040
I sort of recognize quite a lot of ADHD traits in myself.

1262
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,920
And I sort of used to have this self-talk about being lazy,

1263
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:06,360
about being not motivated,

1264
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,160
about why am I different from everybody else?

1265
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,360
Why can't I knuckle down the study and meet deadlines

1266
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,560
and all those kinds of things,

1267
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,840
without it being a huge push at the very end?

1268
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,040
Yeah, so in hindsight, I'd like to sort of say to myself,

1269
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,760
this is just you and that's how you work.

1270
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,680
And ultimately, it's gonna cost you a lot of stress

1271
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,960
in terms of last minute studying for exams,

1272
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,080
and it's gonna cost you a lot of stress

1273
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,160
in terms of last minute meeting deadlines at work,

1274
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,080
but you'll be okay.

1275
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,560
And will it also be a bit of a superpower in any way?

1276
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,480
I mean, I can pull all nighters still at the age of mid-40s,

1277
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:39,520
47 I am now.

1278
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,680
So, in that way, I guess, I suppose it is,

1279
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,400
but I mean, it's a challenge as well.

1280
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,440
I think this is a lovely thing though, isn't it,

1281
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,120
about getting older, is that you can look back

1282
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,880
with that kind of perspective and reflect and think,

1283
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,360
if only I'd known,

1284
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,320
I would have saved myself a lot of heartache.

1285
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,320
No, I just think one of the most important maxims in life is

1286
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,360
if you believe you can make a difference,

1287
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,520
or if you believe you can't make a difference,

1288
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,520
you're probably right.

1289
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:19,520
In other words, transformer, I can't do anything about this.

1290
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,560
Yeah, I can.

1291
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,280
That, I think, is the most important thing

1292
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:23,560
I've learned in life.

1293
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,320
Just the kind of simple message

1294
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,040
that I'm always trying to get across to people

1295
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,200
when I talk about leadership

1296
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,080
and trying to help people to be better leaders

1297
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,240
is just about just remembering the importance of humanity,

1298
00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:37,080
just remembering that people are human.

1299
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,760
Well, obviously, by definition, everybody is human,

1300
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,160
and I think we forget that.

1301
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,000
It's really nice, isn't it?

1302
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,160
Really, yeah.

1303
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:45,000
It is lovely.

1304
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,400
Well, it's been an absolute privilege

1305
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,800
to just spend this time with you.

1306
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,600
I've always loved spending time with you over the years.

1307
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,120
I know our professional lives have circled

1308
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:55,800
in and out of each other's worlds quite a few times,

1309
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:56,840
but this has been lovely.

1310
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,160
And to get to know things about you, I never knew before.

1311
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:04,160
So if all leaders could just be more caring,

1312
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,400
then how much, not only nicer would our working lives be,

1313
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,080
and probably more enjoyable,

1314
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,600
but how much more peace people would just have in life.

1315
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,120
And so I think it's a beautiful, beautiful thing

1316
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:17,040
that you're both doing.

1317
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:17,880
Thank you.

1318
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,440
Thank you very much for joining me.

1319
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:20,280
Thank you.

1320
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:21,120
Thank you very much.

1321
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:21,960
Thank you very much for joining me.

1322
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:22,800
Thank you.

1323
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,640
Coming up in Leadership Journeys.

1324
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,240
At 5 a.m., I woke up from an explosion.

1325
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,440
I took my stuff, like just a rucksack,

1326
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,640
but all my clothes, all like stuff in my house,

1327
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,320
and I left apartment, and I thought,

1328
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,040
probably I will never come back here,

1329
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:48,040
and probably I'll never see my apartment again.