Welcome to LeadHERship Journeys.
I'm psychologist Leona Deakin,
and I'm delving into the minds of successful women
to find out how they've achieved the things that they have.
On our last episode, we heard from Lisa Shepherd at the Biscay.
And she was talking about how she and her co-founder
are changing the workplace in order to suit working moms.
Inspirational stuff.
Coming up today...
I love being a 50-year-old woman.
I think my tribe rocks.
I really do.
I tell you what, if I had to solve any problem,
I'd put a bunch of middle-aged women on it
because the life experience, the ability to collaborate,
the drive, I don't think you could beat our tribe for that.
How is it possible to work in a highly stressful,
emotionally charged occupation,
one such as prosecuting violent crimes against women,
and not let it affect how you live or raise your children?
Today on LeadHERship Journeys, I am talking to a female leader
I have worked with and admired for many years.
Siobhán Blake is the chief crown prosecutor for CPS West Midlands
and the national CCP lead
for rape and serious sexual offence prosecutions.
She's also the mother of a teenage daughter,
so I'm fascinated to know how that influences the work she does.
Lots of women I'm speaking to on the podcast
are achieving inspirational things.
However, literally sending bad guys to jail
has to be one of the most kick-ass jobs.
Welcome, Siobhán.
Thank you, Leona.
It's lovely to be here.
It is lovely.
So just tell us a little bit, for those who don't know,
about the Crown Prosecution Service
and what it means to be the chief crown prosecutor.
So what is that job all about?
Well, fundamentally, the Crown Prosecution Service
is the state prosecutor.
So all the criminal offences that the police handle,
as well as some of the other state authorities
that have prosecutorial powers,
will at some point interact with the Crown Prosecution Service
because we either make the decision
to charge people with criminal offences
or we are sent cases where people have already been charged
and then we assess them for prosecution
and if they pass our code test,
they will then be prosecuted
through the courts of England and Wales.
In terms of my role,
there are a number of chief crown prosecutors
across the country.
The Crown Prosecution Service is divided into 14 areas
across England and Wales.
Each one of those areas has a Crown Prosecutor
and fundamentally, we're responsible
for all the prosecutions
that go through our particular region.
So in being the chief Crown Prosecutor
of the West Midlands,
I'm responsible for cases brought to me
by five police forces
and I think the demographic of my area
is around three and a half million people.
So all the cases from that area that the police investigates
and they're ultimately charged
comes through my office doors.
Like I say, kick ass.
And so how many staff approximately
are you responsible for here?
I'm responsible for, on any given day,
it varies a little bit
but around 500 members of staff
work in the West Midlands.
One of the biggest areas of the Crown Prosecution Service.
So the geographical areas vary a little bit
but in total, the Crown Prosecution Service
has about 7,000 staff under its remit.
I'm responsible for 500 of them.
Yeah, that's brilliant.
That gives a real sense of what you guys are doing
so that's lovely.
But before we move on to you and your career
and how you got here,
of those 14 areas,
how many of them are led by women?
Is it...
It's in fact quite a substantial number.
It's over 50% of chief Crown prosecutors
in the country are now women.
So I think that's a real credit to the organisation
and the opportunities within the organisation.
It's not always been that way
but certainly in the last decade or so,
women have made real strides
within the Crown Prosecution Service
and for that, we're a bit of a leading light
in terms of legal careers.
You don't see that level of female representation
in other parts of the legal profession.
I think many of them aspire to what we've already achieved.
That's very cool, isn't it?
And that's changed through your career then.
You've watched that change.
Absolutely, yeah.
So take us back then.
So the young Siobhan, late teens, early 20s,
did you always want to be a lawyer
or was that something that came from school?
How did you decide on that career?
I think it's fair to say, like many people,
I floated into my career or drifted into my career.
I didn't want to be a lawyer.
If you'd asked me at 16, I would have loved to have been a vet.
I adored...
In fact, I'd have liked to have been a vet
and treated race horses.
I adored horses.
I really enjoyed working with animals
and I would have loved to pursue the career as a vet.
Unfortunately, my maths just simply wasn't up to it.
Once that career option had sort of shut itself down
in terms of my academic strengths,
I really didn't have much of a plan, if I'm honest.
For a little while, I thought about becoming an English teacher
because I absolutely adore English and reading.
And so that was sort of vaguely the plan.
Law had never occurred to me.
I had no one with a legal background in my family.
Didn't know any lawyers at all.
And I think, really, I sort of tripped into it
through two coincidences or two very tiny moves of fate.
The one was a chap in my class had decided
he wanted to become a lawyer.
And I thought, well, if he could do it,
most probably I could do that.
And it was literally no more thought out than that.
And then at 17, we had to do a week's work experience
as part of our A-level course.
And I did a couple of days at a vet,
but I knew by that point my A-levels
were not going to get me into any sort of veterinary science degree.
And so my teacher said, well, come on,
you're going to have to do something a bit more realistic as well.
And one of them said to me,
I've got a friend who works for this organization
called the Crown Prosecution Service.
Do you want me to see if I can get you a couple of days in their office?
And I said, OK.
Never heard of the Crown Prosecution Service.
Didn't know what it did.
And she set that up.
And I went and I did a few days work experience
at my local CPS office.
And they were very kind to me.
And they took me to court.
And I sat in a Crown Court and I watched a trial.
And it was almost that was it.
I thought, this is fantastic.
This is so interesting.
It's so relevant.
If you love people, then criminal law really fed that.
And I didn't really look back from that point.
Yeah.
You were hooked.
I was hooked.
Almost the minute I went, I think there's something about the drama of a courtroom
that just fascinated me.
I was able to sit with the instructing solicitor
who sits behind the barrister in court.
He had to pop out for a while and he says,
well, I'm out.
Just take a note of what's being said in court.
So I was there very methodically taking this note.
And the judge asked a question about something that had been said.
And the barrister turned to me and said, give me a note.
And then he read out my notes.
Well, I nearly collapsed with fear in case I got something wrong.
And then there was a bit of me that thought,
gosh, I've just contributed something to this process, which is so important.
And that was it.
That really was it from then on.
And I thought, this is where I want to be.
This is what I want to do.
It's a really cool experience, isn't it?
And you talked to people over the years about work experience at school.
It's often a bit of an eye roll.
It didn't give anything.
And yours just sounds completely the opposite.
So maybe the average experience of sitting.
I went to do some work experience because I'd thought about law.
But it was just in the local solicitor's office and they just had me filing.
It couldn't be more different.
I'm sure if I'd gone along and they'd asked me to do the photocopying,
I may not have come out quite as inspired.
OK.
And so did you go straight to the CPS?
And after, presumably, you went and studied law, did your degree.
And so did you just go back?
Did you enjoy the CPS so much?
I went and studied law.
And that was quite a difficult journey for me because I can remember in my very last
parents' evening, my mother coming home and saying,
the teachers are saying, are you sure you want to do law?
You're so good at English.
Are you going to be able to manage a law degree?
And she said, are you sure about this?
And I remember thinking, well, now somebody said I might not be able
to do it. That's it.
And I said, I'm absolutely certain.
So what is it then about the criminal law that feeds the soul for you?
I think there's something about justice.
There's something about feeling that if you can somehow redress the balance for people
who've been wronged, that that is a really important societal aim.
And that sounds a little bit highfalutin.
But if you don't have a fully functional operating criminal justice system,
then all you're left with as a society is whoever's the biggest and the strongest
and the most threatening is the person who succeeds.
And I think I've got a pathological hatred of bullies.
The idea that survival of the fittest is the way that we as a society should work on any level,
just seems so profoundly wrong.
And criminal law and the way it operates is the antithesis of survival of the fittest.
So to be part of something where you hopefully redress the balance for people,
it doesn't only give you a huge feeling of satisfaction because you're helping individuals,
hopefully.
But there's something about the health of society you're really contributing to.
And for me, that was a massive driver.
There's something if you're going to throw yourself into something,
and I knew whatever I picked to do for a living, I would throw myself into it wholeheartedly
because I just tend to work like that.
And I thought, well, if I'm going to give this as much as any career needs for you to do it well,
I want it to be something where I feel I'm benefiting the sort of greater goods, hopefully.
Yeah, I've never thought about it like that before, the idea that the justice system is
countering that survival of the fittest and making us more sophisticated as a population.
That's a really powerful thing.
I'd never thought about that, never stopped to think about that, I suppose.
So that's really nice to know from a recipient of the justice system's point of view, I think.
But also, like you said there, something about, oh, that might sound a bit, you know,
I want to make a difference to the world.
And often people say that they apologize for that motivator.
I think it's one of the ones that people apologize for the most.
And yet, you know, we have a number of really big intrinsic motivators that human beings respond to.
So that need for growth and improvement is a big one.
The need for freedom and control is a big one.
And then the need for purpose and having an impact is a big one.
And they're the three biggies.
And the other two, we don't really apologize for being a bit independent or wanting some control.
We don't really apologize for wanting to improve ourselves.
But we tend to apologize for, I don't know, being egotistical enough to think we can change the world.
But actually, I think it's a huge driver for so many people that you want the work you do
to have a bigger impact than just the tasks you are fulfilling, you know.
And is that why you said about that pathological hatred of bullies?
So that's one to delve into where that comes from.
But did that influence you then taking up that mantle of the violence against women and rape and serious sex?
Because you've always had a bit of an interest in that, haven't you?
And a specialism in that area.
Absolutely.
When I first joined the Crown Prosecution Service, and I was lucky, I grew up in the sort of
the 80s, and it was the time of the sort of almost the power feminist, I think.
There were some really, and it was also open to huge amounts of debate, but it was the time of having it all.
And we were women going into a workforce where we were standing on the shoulders of giants.
The sort of first wave of women who had entered some of the more traditional professions in any sort of great
numbers was the generation before me.
But they really had to work to find their feet and get accepted and progress.
And I was sort of coming in on the slipstream of that.
At the same time, I think the law was beginning to evolve quite significantly around being more aware of the needs to approach violence
against women and girls, maybe in a very different way to that which had come before.
So when you think that rape in a marriage was only criminalized in the sort of 90s, and as I say, I always find that quite staggering.
So there was, and I can remember the law around stalking being brought in.
And I was a very, very, well, I was a trainee lawyer as these sort of things were happening.
And that's along with the sort of the upbringing I had, where I was very much told that I could stand on my own two feet,
that I could have a career, that the fact that I was a woman was irrelevant to any of those aspirations.
And also the sort of experience I saw within my workplace, where it was very still male dominated right across criminal law in terms of everyone I met.
So policing, the Crown Prosecution Service, although less so, I have to say, even then.
But the courts and the judiciary, so everything I was experiencing was really at the tipping point, I think, at that stage,
where the law was becoming more aware of these things, the prosecution authorities, the judiciary.
And for me, it felt as if it was just a natural area to become involved in, because it's, I suppose it played to my own aspirations as being an independent and empowered woman.
And also it was about trying to reframe and reshape some of the narratives around violence against women and girls.
That, it just absolutely spoke to something in me. It seemed like a really worthwhile way of focusing my career.
And yes, right from the start, really, I developed a specialism, started working very closely on domestic abuse, initially, casework and working with the police.
And it was at a time when the police were developing more sophisticated strategies for investigating and dealing with domestic abuse survivors.
And then I moved on into the realms of serious sexual offenses, where there were a lot of challenges.
And I wanted to be one of the people working to try and knock down some of the barriers that women coming into that process met daily.
And what do you feel you were able to contribute to then in that kind of world?
I think first and foremost, on an individual basis, as a front line lawyer, it was simply doing the work that I had, my casework as effectively as I possibly could.
And giving it all my attention and energy and passion.
But I think also I had the perspective of a woman prosecuting those sort of cases, and I brought my experiences as being a young woman in society into that world.
And I think certainly on an individual basis, I'd like to think that I and the people I worked with on my cases really did come at it with a more victim focused approach to it.
And we started to sort of identify those myths and stereotypes, those assumptions that tend to exist in the world of prosecuting rape and serious sexual offenses and trying to challenge them and break them down in that casework.
And when you say that victim orientated, what does that actually mean? What were you doing differently than people had done before you?
I think it was really focusing on the victim survivor voice, not necessarily just falling into some of the very deeply embedded myths and stereotypes around rape and serious sexual offenses.
And also trying to bring the victim into the center of the cases that we were prosecuting and effectively tell their stories.
I think when I started prosecuting, what really profoundly struck me, we didn't have any special measures or specific areas of support in terms of legal provision for any victim,
but particularly vulnerable victims to give evidence with any sort of special measures.
So today we have a whole raft of special measures to help people tell their story as effectively as possible in court in terms of providing your evidence via a sort of TV link or having a screen or being able to give your evidence in stages.
So there are all sorts of provisions involved. When I started prosecuting, which is now well over 20 years ago, a victim had to get into a physical walk into a physical courtroom, stand in a witness box and give their evidence.
Whilst the defendant was sat in that room with them and there was no real protection or consideration to allow them to give their best evidence. So there's been a massive journey within criminal justice about acknowledging that that actually might not necessarily always be the best way for a victim to provide evidence, particularly about these really sensitive aspects.
What really struck me is there was a profound lack of empathy for that victim experience. They were almost meant to contribute to the system and speak their truth through the system without any level of support or understanding.
And as I say, that we're going back now several decades and there's been a huge movement away from that and a huge acknowledgement. But as a young prosecutor, that really impacted me. And I thought this is a system that needs to change and develop. And I wanted to be part of that process.
And so that's why you lent into that kind of work, presumably, so that you could have an impact.
Absolutely. It was it was an area where I felt real passion for both the work and also where I could see that the law could develop.
And it was at a time when, as I say, criminal justice was beginning to see that things needed to change and develop and society was becoming more aware of some of the issues.
So it was perfect timing, really. It was an it was an ideal time to start developing a specialism in that area.
The law changed quite profoundly in the early 2000s when we had a new Sexual Offences Act.
And I was very much involved in my role at the time in training and developing and understanding that piece of legislation and really supporting my colleagues to interpret it and apply it effectively.
And it just really snowballed from there.
I mean, it's so impressive and it's great for any women out there to know that there are women who are willing to do this kind of work and help move that whole thing forward and and realize that empathy is missing and do something about it.
I suppose what's intriguing me is what did it feel like though for you just as an individual to be immersed in that kind of crime?
Because it's very different to looking at robberies and that kind of sexually orientated violence against women or children.
How well, how did that feel?
I think you you. You focus on terrible things happen in the world and you are profoundly aware of that.
And when your day job is is to run towards some of those really bad things, you have to feel you're doing that with a sense of purpose, I think.
And so what I tried to do was always do the job, whatever that job was, as well as I possibly could.
And I suppose it goes back to that sense of justice, and I felt like I could play a very small part in hopefully balancing up that sense of justice.
And I've always tried to make sure that I've reminded myself that what I do in my day job is a very, very concentrated vision of the world out there.
And there are lots and lots and lots of people out there who will do miraculous things every day to help each other.
And the strange thing about criminal law is you really do see both the best and the worst side of the human condition on your desk every single day.
I have can genuinely say I have seen acts of incredible heroism undertaken by just people who got up that morning to go about a very normal life.
And they just happen to end up in a situation where bad things were happening and they their instinct was to help and support and protect.
And I find that quite incredible. And that may be when you look at it in the round, you try and focus on the wonderful things you see about the human condition
whilst thinking you are going to help maybe hopefully regain the balance as far as the really awful things that you see.
I suppose it gives you a level of realism about how deeply cruel people can be to each other.
But on the other side, you do see people do remarkable things and you see people survive incredibly negative experiences and traumatic experiences
and go on to build from that truly amazing either lives as individuals or they take that experience and they channel it into something positive.
So I suppose it is just trying to see the positives in it and also constantly keeping a real focus on the fact that hopefully I can assist and support
and create a little bit of balance when these things do happen. So I'm contributing something.
Yes. So there's something there linked to that purpose and that initial sitting in that courtroom as a youngster and seeing,
oh, my goodness, I could be part of something that makes a difference, that gives a bit of fuel to getting through the work when the work is tough
and emotionally tough, it sounds like at times. But there's something else going on there, isn't there?
That ability to put it in perspective or see the positive, see the other side of it.
Was that something that you were taught to do by the organisation or by other people or was that something just in you?
I think I'm fortunate in as much as I think I have a relatively upbeat outlook on life.
And so I think that helps. I also do think I was fortunate in as much as I worked with phenomenal people.
I always say about the Crown Prosecution Service, I'm never sure if seeing what we see on a regular basis makes us nicer
or whether the Crown Prosecution Service attracts people who want to be nice. I just don't know.
Chicken and egg.
Yes, chicken and egg. But I did work with some phenomenal people and I had some incredible mentors along the way
who really did teach me to focus on the positive outcomes and the practical elements of what we do.
And someone's got to do this work. It's quite interesting.
I went to a conference once on serious sexual offences and the delegates were made up of prosecutors,
police officers, various blue lights organisations, some medics who focused on this type of work.
And when the psychologist came out onto the stage, the first thing she said was,
you do realise you're the abnormal ones. And everybody sort of chuckles as you do.
And she said, no, no, no, I'm serious because most people spend a lot of time protecting themselves
from the idea that bad things can happen to anybody. And she said, you guys get up every day, you go about your lives,
you bring up your children, you have relationships. And yet the backdrop of all that is, you know that these bad things can happen.
And she said, that's very unusual. That's not the way most people's psychology works.
So I do think there is a level of training within the organisation and a level of mentoring that helps you focus on the value of the outcome
rather than the emotional impact of the nature of the work.
We're far more sophisticated now as an organisation about dealing with people's welfare and wellbeing.
And we have specific programmes for our lawyers that deal with this sort of casework on a regular basis where we check in with them.
They can access support and we can make sure that it's not having an unduly negative impact on their psychology.
Back when I started doing this work, it was a little bit more about the role models that you had and the coping mechanisms you developed.
Yeah, so it's more of a lottery then if you've got somebody line managing you who was good at looking out for your wellbeing, then you'd won.
But if you didn't, you'd lost. Whereas now it's a bit more baked in.
It's very baked in.
And I can say that from working as an external consultant over that Covid period with a number of different organisations, one of them being the CPS.
And I remember the staff of the CPS talking so positively about how the organisation had reacted in terms of wellbeing and support.
And it's interesting you say, do we attract nice people? Do we make people nice?
And I think there's something about that environment, the resilience as well, that's going on.
So you're having to look at reality. So like that psychologist said, there's a whole just world hypothesis where we like to think we're in control.
It is an illusion, though, but we have this idea that in a just world, if I'm a good person and I do good things, then nothing bad will happen to me.
Now, if you work in one of those blue light environments or your justice world, you're looking constantly, presumably at bad things happening to people completely outside of their control, in the wrong place at the wrong time,
you know, meeting the wrong person in the bar, whatever it might be, being born into a family, things that they can't change or control and bad things are happening.
And that is actually reality.
And what I suppose what you as a population are having to come to terms with is resilience to that reality.
And that resilience maybe makes you have to be a bit more optimistic and hopeful and look at the bright side when you can, because otherwise it would drive you mad or you'd leave, wouldn't you?
And go and do something else. You would leave if you couldn't tolerate.
Yeah. And so how has this affected, like I was saying at the beginning, you're the mother of a teenage daughter.
So being immersed in that kind of crime as well, does that affect how you parent?
Like, is she just locked at home right now, just not allowed to go out and speak to anybody?
I wish. No, I would I always used to think it didn't affect me.
And then I think when you have a child, you realize that it does affect you.
You do. You do see the world through slightly different lens.
And there are there were some real challenges for me as she grew up.
And I must admit, I can remember thinking, oh, my goodness, at some point we're going to have to do the whole sleepover thing.
And I know there's a real debate just generally in the world of being a parent about sleepovers.
But I had to be very disciplined with myself about I am not going to let my child's upbringing and childhood be in any way tainted by the fact that I go into work and I see bad things happening across my desk.
So I suppose there had to be a little bit sometimes when maybe my instincts were to overprotect.
I had to sort of recognize that in myself and almost have the debate.
Is this is this reasonable? Because sometimes it absolutely would be.
And I might just follow in really good parenting instincts, sort of my my mother inspired the senses.
Or is this an overreaction based on the fact that she's the most precious thing in my life and I'm applying all these potential risks and fears to her.
So I've had to maybe address it in that way.
And she does do all the things that everybody else does.
And she's certainly not I don't think she tolerate now being locked up in a room, but she's certainly not locked up in a room.
I really didn't think she was.
Do you talk to her about the things that you know go on in the world in a way that she can kind of utilize maybe?
Yes, and I think that was something I was one of the things that I think is absolutely critical for anybody is that first of all,
they understand that sometimes bad things do happen and that is terrible and it is unfair and it's not your fault.
And I think particularly with well, with any type of being the victim of any sort of crime, but maybe particularly if you're the victim of sex crime,
it does come with some huge societal baggage.
And so I've and there is almost and it is part of this sort of protective mindset that people put that, well, it wouldn't happen to me because.
And the truth is, you just can't legislate for the world like that.
And so I've always tried to talk about bad things happening in terms of bad things can happen to you and they're not your fault and they are very unfair.
And that you don't carry the shame for that.
The only people who should carry shame for bad things happening to somebody else are the people who've perpetrated those acts.
And that's you have to be resilient in the world and and realize that even when bad things happen, you can recover from them and you can carry on.
So rather than deal with specifically the nature of the work I deal with, I've tried to give her a voice.
Yes. I mean, and that's a powerful message for just women in general or all men facing this kind of violence against them.
And also, I hope she understands she is an utterly autonomous person and she has the right to decide what goes on when it directly affects her physically or mentally.
And she has a voice in that conversation and her voice should be the prevailing voice.
It's interesting with the case at the moment in France with the wife whose husband was organizing for men to come around and and rape her while she was passed out.
And she pushed for them to play all of the videos that he'd kept to think and she was quoted as having said, shame needs to change sides.
Powerful statement.
She's really powerful, isn't it? And you think what a brave move to make.
She's absolutely right. But how brave to do that, because that's not necessarily going to help her, but it could hugely impact on anyone who follows.
And and I think I think that's the the nature of the conversation that we all have to have within society.
I think it's so much broader than just being a prosecutor and prosecuting cases.
It's about the way we educate our children. It's it's about some of the attitudes we bring into our relationships.
It's about being very clear with our our boys and our men what's acceptable and what's not.
And as I say, it's about giving. I think if I can do nothing else, hopefully I can give my daughter a voice and the ability to say no really loudly.
Absolutely. I was just thinking then that's a powerful message for the for the females or male victims of any sexual abuse or violence.
But how about the perpetrators of this?
Is there anything you would want that population to know?
Is there anything you've learned about that population over the years that you think of if those people were educated differently or thought differently?
Or is there something going on on that side of the table as well?
Well, I just think I think as a society, we have to have a zero tolerance to people feeling that they've got a right to usurp somebody else's personal autonomy.
And I think it's almost as simple as that. If you know if every individual, but not just every individual, because you can't put the onus on victim survivors.
You've got to put the onus on, as I say, as I say to my daughter, you know, it's not it's not about what what happens to you.
It's about the perpetrator, the person who makes the choices that ends up with that as the consequence.
And I think there's something about us as a society being really clear that there are certain behaviors and actions and we all know them when we see them, if we're honest,
which are just simply not acceptable and we wouldn't like them if they were played out with us and we shouldn't tolerate them when we see them played out on others.
And I think there is just something about if you can readdress that balance at a really early stage, then I think people are less likely to take that first step into that behavior.
What's going wrong, though? I mean, do you know? Just trying to think like what what is it that youngsters aren't being taught or told what's missing or what are the wrong messages?
It's a big question. I don't know if you can answer that. Just throw that one at you.
And I really wish I knew. Yeah. Yeah. And you would get lots of different if you asked our stakeholders in this environment.
So the women who are activists around the whole area of violence against women and girls on a daily basis, they could give you a myriad of answers.
I have no doubts to that question. And I feel I will be honest, I feel fundamentally illiquid to give you an answer to that one.
But I think there is something around trying to support particularly our young people to understand what consent looks like,
to understand it's both parties responsibility that to produce really strong role models about what a good man looks like,
what a kind man looks like, as well as what a strong woman looks like and what an empowers woman looks like.
And I think there's a whole raft of thought that we need to give a society to those sort of questions,
because when our children are developing into young adults, if they've got the right roadmaps, I think it will make women safer.
And I think I suspect men more confident about calling it out when they see it as well.
Absolutely. And it's really striking me how having spent a career looking at this area of crime,
which I think naively I thought, oh, how does she do that? Because that mustn't be very nice,
has given you such an insight into what the next generation probably need and what society needs.
And so it is that people have to be brave enough to immerse themselves in this kind of work in order to change the nature of things.
And that's that's pretty cool.
As I say, I do a tiny bit. My contribution to this whole story is very small.
And we, you know, I said right at the beginning, I was standing on the shoulders of giants when I went into law.
I also have nothing but admiration for many of the women that I see out there who are campaigning, talking, striving for improvements in this area.
I mean, you say I play this small part and, you know, it's that humility is lovely.
What I'm interested to know is young Siobhan, who was sitting in that courtroom on her work experience.
What do you think she would think if she could see you here now doing this job, talking in this way, having this knowledge?
I was going to say she'd mostly say, why aren't you men in the world?
She'd be a little disappointed. She might be a bit let down, if I'm honest.
That says a lot about your character. We'll get into that in a minute.
So so this so you've got to this level of leadership.
So what's driven that just following on for that point, your younger self maybe wouldn't have sat here going, oh, my gosh, I became such an empowered, strong woman with such great insights.
She'd think, I'm sorry, why aren't you at the top of this organization? Why aren't you the prime minister? Why aren't you why aren't you changing these things you're talking about?
So you're thinking that's what you would have been thinking.
I think so. Yeah. So there's something about your psyche that's like, get out there and do it and get so.
So what is that what's driven you to pursue more seniority in your career and go up the leadership ladder?
I don't know, because I my career is not binary by any manner or means. I spent a long, long time as a frontline prosecutor,
prosecuting all sorts of cases, although very much leaning towards the the the raping serious sexual offense casework.
And I spent about 10 years doing that.
And I have to say they were most probably in some ways the most satisfying 10 years of my life because I could touch it.
I had my cases and I worked with some fantastic police officer teams and some brilliant barristers.
And we built cases and we prosecuted cases and we convicted some very bad people.
And I found that hugely satisfying.
I think I was very fortunate in as much as I then had a line manager who who sat me down one day and said,
have you ever thought about progressing?
And I said, well, not not really. I'm very happy doing what I do.
Feel I do it well. And that was always important to me.
And he said, yes, but you've still got an awful lot of years left in your career.
And you don't want to be sat here thinking, I wish I'd taken this step at an earlier stage.
And it was just I suppose these things just get seeded.
It was something that he said. And I started thinking about it a little bit differently.
So then then you get to a point where you feel as if you're doing everything you can with the casework that you've got as an individual.
And I think I wanted to do more. And I realized that there's only so much one person can physically take on and do well.
So then the next step is to progress. So you decide that you can run a team and then you've got the ability to maybe influence more of that work.
And so I think that's what pushed me on to the next level.
But as I say, it wasn't a straight ambition driven sort of career trajectory from A to sort of Z.
Motivational drive for you wasn't about moving up the hierarchy.
And I suppose that power and status motivator, it was about making a difference.
And at that point, you were you were making a difference.
And possibly only when you got to the point where you thought, oh, I could make a difference to a little bit more.
Yes. Or in a slightly different way. Did that become intriguing or interesting?
That's exactly right. Until then, I didn't really think I was thinking about, would I stay doing this sort of casework or was I going to another type of casework?
Those were the sort of choices I was making. And then it was only when I thought, there's there's a more aspect to this.
And I'll only ever be able to do so much. And that's what pushed me on, I think, to the next level.
And for females out there that are wanting to progress in their career to make a difference or to move up the hierarchy, whichever.
What have you learned have been some of the challenges of being a female leader inside a big organization such as this?
I think there are a couple of things. One of the things that never ceases to surprise me is how women will wait until they think they're 100 percent ready for the next step.
Whereas I've had so many conversations with really exceptional women about, no, you need to take this.
If you want to take the next step, you are ready for the next step.
Yes, there are gaps, but everyone's got gaps when they go on to that next stage.
And women having to have that push or that affirmation, whereas it does happen.
I'm not saying it never happens with with men, but it happens far less often.
I have more conversations with men where I'm having to say, do you think you're really ready?
Do you have you still got some gaps that when it comes to career progression?
So I think there is something fundamentally.
Women are quite conservative about their own career paths and their own career trajectory,
because I think they're very self-critical about their capabilities and skills.
Absolutely. I mean, I can give the insight on that.
There's some fascinating research that's been going on.
I remember learning about it on my degree and it's been replicated across cultures,
which is that when you ask men and women to estimate their level of intelligence, their IQ,
women estimate themselves as average in general and men estimate themselves as above average in general.
But above and beyond that, we all estimate dads as more intelligent than mums,
grandfathers as more intelligent than grandmothers and shockingly, sons as more.
Intelligent than daughters, and this is still being found today.
And there's something and then you just think, well, if if you go out into the world thinking,
well, I'm probably more intelligent than the next person, which is the generalized male psychology,
which obviously they can't be by the nature of it's a lot.
It's a normal distribution curve, guys.
Some of you have got to be in the middle.
But if you just have that confidence to think, well, I'm probably bright enough to pick up these extra skills
or I'm probably as bright as that person above me or two or three levels above me because I'm more intelligent than most.
If that is your like foundational belief, that gives you so much confidence and self-belief.
Whereas if females are thinking, well, I'm just average, really.
So I'm going to have to work hard to prove myself.
Wait until I tick all the boxes.
And so there's something like, where is that coming from?
Why is that happening?
That's a whole field of kind of human psychology that that I think is is is not only intriguing,
but impactful on the workplace and also ambition for the kind of life you want or the career that you want.
And it's interesting that you're seeing it living and breathing inside an organization like this.
And as I said right at the beginning, we're quite you know, we've got really good representation at a senior level of female leaders.
So what would you tell them, those ladies?
Don't wait to be perfect because none of us will ever get there.
Be honest with yourself because you have to be realistic about your abilities and your development level and stage.
But don't wait until you think every single I is dotted and T is crossed because every career journey is exactly that.
It's a journey and you'll pick up skills and you'll develop things and you'll change as you go about it.
So there's a bit of bravery involved in that, presumably.
And then a bit of that, like you were saying, optimistic thinking, positive thinking and actually just.
And a little bit of either arrogance or self-confidence.
What was it you said at the beginning when when your mum had challenged you and said the teachers have said is law?
And you were like, right, now you've said that, I'm off, I'm doing it.
And oh, my goodness, we have heard so many of the women that we've interviewed say something similar.
So there's something it's a bit gritty, isn't it?
It's like, how dare you? How dare you tell me what?
How dare you put me in a box and say, I cannot.
I'm going to prove to you that I can.
And I think there is certainly I recognize I have that in me.
I might not necessarily in lots and lots of parts of my life.
I might not necessarily be the best at something.
I might not be the quickest to pick something up.
But I'm always the one that people you know, I was always most improved.
Most improved. And that's that growth mindset, isn't it?
Why are you most improved? Well, because you're going out there and having a go and thinking, don't tell me I can't.
That just makes me want to have a go more.
And when we go out and have a go, well, that's when we learn and that's when we develop, isn't it?
And so you you know, you were saying it's taken a good few years to feel like you're really comfortable in this role.
So even when you get to this level and you'd already been a CCP in another area and this area is just different, a bit more complex, a bit bigger.
And so it takes time and presumably along the way, you feel some anxiety with that in terms of, is this the job for me?
Can I? Absolutely. And I think I also think that's healthy to a degree.
One of the things that really struck me when I started to go into much more senior roles is the people who actually tell you
you're wrong start to diminish quite considerably.
And I found that quite terrifying because you need that counterbalance.
You need that positive, critical challenge.
Criticism. And it's going to be constructive.
But it's really important for you to grow and improve.
You need that critique. And so I think the ability sometimes to almost do that to yourself,
have a look at yourself and say, well, actually, OK, you're at this point, but you could be with a bit more effort or with a different approach at this point.
I think it becomes quite important to drive you to continue improving as you get into more senior roles,
because there are less people who are well placed to do that for you.
Yes, because you become more powerful. Yeah. And so people are more sycophantic.
I'm just going to go, that's a brilliant idea, Siobhan. Just wish I'd thought of it myself.
Or if nothing else, crack on because it's your responsibility.
If you fall over, that's on you. Either way.
Either side of that. Yeah. Now you've got to this. Well, what's next?
Do you know? At the moment, I am still I've still got lots and lots to do in this role.
And it's full of challenges, full of of excitement.
And so at the moment, it's about really understanding it, conquering it,
feeling as if I'm determining where it goes rather than having to to adapt myself to it.
So there's still a whole piece of work to be done there.
I don't feel like the job is over in any sort of way.
So I don't think I'm going anywhere for a goodly while.
Then I really don't know, because I've hit that magic 50 number.
And that that is fascinating because I remember when I turned 50 saying,
it's the first time in my life as a woman, I haven't had a script written for me.
When you're you're either a daughter or you're a sister or you're a girlfriend or you're a wife
or you're a mother. And now suddenly it's almost as if society stops telling
middle aged women what they should be because they sort of lose interest in you.
And I find that quite liberating because it means for the first time ever, I'm not having to
think about societal requirements. It's just really what do I want?
I can massively relate to that.
I think being in my fifth decade, just like this can now just be about what I want to do.
And I think that's wonderful.
And like you say, you get more maybe less relevant to society.
Also, maybe they're just a bit more scared of us now because we're not afraid to tell them what we think.
Terrifying.
I did.
A terrifying population of women.
I love I love being a 50 year old woman.
I think my tribe rocks. I really do.
There's nothing I tell you if I had to solve any problem, I'd put a bunch of middle aged women on it
because the life experience, the ability to collaborate, the drive, the honesty.
I don't think you could beat our tribe for that.
I love it. It's brilliant.
And what would you if you could go back and whisper in your young Siobhan's ear,
what would you tell her? Would you give her any tips about life or?
Think about what you think you can achieve and double it.
Wow, that's great.
Siobhan, it has been absolutely fascinating to talk to you.
Lovely to hear about your leadership journey.
Really enlightening to hear about the work that that you and your colleagues are doing to just improve society and improve the world.
So thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
In the next episode, I contacted women in medicine, women in media, women in finance.
I managed to get an advert in Cosmopolitan and I had a great ambition to be in Cosmopolitan for another reason, actually.
It was multiple orgasms is what I wanted to be in, because they were talking every article in Cosmo.
Very Cosmo.