1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,320 Welcome to LeadHERship Journeys. 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:04,400 I'm psychologist Leona Deakin, 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,280 and I'm delving into the minds of successful women 4 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,000 to find out how they've achieved the things that they have. 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,160 On our last episode, we heard from Lisa Shepherd at the Biscay. 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,200 And she was talking about how she and her co-founder 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,560 are changing the workplace in order to suit working moms. 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:26,240 Inspirational stuff. 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:27,920 Coming up today... 10 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,640 I love being a 50-year-old woman. 11 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,480 I think my tribe rocks. 12 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:33,840 I really do. 13 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,240 I tell you what, if I had to solve any problem, 14 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,640 I'd put a bunch of middle-aged women on it 15 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,520 because the life experience, the ability to collaborate, 16 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,960 the drive, I don't think you could beat our tribe for that. 17 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:53,520 How is it possible to work in a highly stressful, 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,600 emotionally charged occupation, 19 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,120 one such as prosecuting violent crimes against women, 20 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,880 and not let it affect how you live or raise your children? 21 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,080 Today on LeadHERship Journeys, I am talking to a female leader 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,560 I have worked with and admired for many years. 23 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,480 Siobhán Blake is the chief crown prosecutor for CPS West Midlands 24 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,240 and the national CCP lead 25 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,200 for rape and serious sexual offence prosecutions. 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,520 She's also the mother of a teenage daughter, 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,800 so I'm fascinated to know how that influences the work she does. 28 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,840 Lots of women I'm speaking to on the podcast 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:31,760 are achieving inspirational things. 30 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,120 However, literally sending bad guys to jail 31 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,760 has to be one of the most kick-ass jobs. 32 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,040 Welcome, Siobhán. 33 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,320 Thank you, Leona. 34 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,320 It's lovely to be here. 35 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:43,680 It is lovely. 36 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,560 So just tell us a little bit, for those who don't know, 37 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,000 about the Crown Prosecution Service 38 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,640 and what it means to be the chief crown prosecutor. 39 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,680 So what is that job all about? 40 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,560 Well, fundamentally, the Crown Prosecution Service 41 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,200 is the state prosecutor. 42 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,560 So all the criminal offences that the police handle, 43 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,600 as well as some of the other state authorities 44 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,000 that have prosecutorial powers, 45 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,160 will at some point interact with the Crown Prosecution Service 46 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,560 because we either make the decision 47 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,520 to charge people with criminal offences 48 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,800 or we are sent cases where people have already been charged 49 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,120 and then we assess them for prosecution 50 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,080 and if they pass our code test, 51 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:31,680 they will then be prosecuted 52 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,480 through the courts of England and Wales. 53 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,240 In terms of my role, 54 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,840 there are a number of chief crown prosecutors 55 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,280 across the country. 56 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,160 The Crown Prosecution Service is divided into 14 areas 57 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,160 across England and Wales. 58 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,400 Each one of those areas has a Crown Prosecutor 59 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,800 and fundamentally, we're responsible 60 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,560 for all the prosecutions 61 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,120 that go through our particular region. 62 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,480 So in being the chief Crown Prosecutor 63 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,920 of the West Midlands, 64 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:06,880 I'm responsible for cases brought to me 65 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,120 by five police forces 66 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,560 and I think the demographic of my area 67 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,520 is around three and a half million people. 68 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,960 So all the cases from that area that the police investigates 69 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,800 and they're ultimately charged 70 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,720 comes through my office doors. 71 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,160 Like I say, kick ass. 72 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,760 And so how many staff approximately 73 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,160 are you responsible for here? 74 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,560 I'm responsible for, on any given day, 75 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,160 it varies a little bit 76 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,920 but around 500 members of staff 77 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,840 work in the West Midlands. 78 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:47,200 One of the biggest areas of the Crown Prosecution Service. 79 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,240 So the geographical areas vary a little bit 80 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,440 but in total, the Crown Prosecution Service 81 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,040 has about 7,000 staff under its remit. 82 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,360 I'm responsible for 500 of them. 83 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:00,400 Yeah, that's brilliant. 84 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,040 That gives a real sense of what you guys are doing 85 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:03,840 so that's lovely. 86 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,840 But before we move on to you and your career 87 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:06,960 and how you got here, 88 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,760 of those 14 areas, 89 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,840 how many of them are led by women? 90 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:12,480 Is it... 91 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,640 It's in fact quite a substantial number. 92 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:20,880 It's over 50% of chief Crown prosecutors 93 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,560 in the country are now women. 94 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,320 So I think that's a real credit to the organisation 95 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,960 and the opportunities within the organisation. 96 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,840 It's not always been that way 97 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,640 but certainly in the last decade or so, 98 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,560 women have made real strides 99 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,880 within the Crown Prosecution Service 100 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,200 and for that, we're a bit of a leading light 101 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,880 in terms of legal careers. 102 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,080 You don't see that level of female representation 103 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,720 in other parts of the legal profession. 104 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,560 I think many of them aspire to what we've already achieved. 105 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:55,920 That's very cool, isn't it? 106 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,000 And that's changed through your career then. 107 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,600 You've watched that change. 108 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,040 Absolutely, yeah. 109 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,080 So take us back then. 110 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,040 So the young Siobhan, late teens, early 20s, 111 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:07,520 did you always want to be a lawyer 112 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,120 or was that something that came from school? 113 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:10,800 How did you decide on that career? 114 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,960 I think it's fair to say, like many people, 115 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,800 I floated into my career or drifted into my career. 116 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,960 I didn't want to be a lawyer. 117 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,280 If you'd asked me at 16, I would have loved to have been a vet. 118 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:24,080 I adored... 119 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:25,680 In fact, I'd have liked to have been a vet 120 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,520 and treated race horses. 121 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:28,960 I adored horses. 122 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,880 I really enjoyed working with animals 123 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,720 and I would have loved to pursue the career as a vet. 124 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,520 Unfortunately, my maths just simply wasn't up to it. 125 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,680 Once that career option had sort of shut itself down 126 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,760 in terms of my academic strengths, 127 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,600 I really didn't have much of a plan, if I'm honest. 128 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,480 For a little while, I thought about becoming an English teacher 129 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,080 because I absolutely adore English and reading. 130 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,240 And so that was sort of vaguely the plan. 131 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,480 Law had never occurred to me. 132 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,400 I had no one with a legal background in my family. 133 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,800 Didn't know any lawyers at all. 134 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,760 And I think, really, I sort of tripped into it 135 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,880 through two coincidences or two very tiny moves of fate. 136 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,160 The one was a chap in my class had decided 137 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,920 he wanted to become a lawyer. 138 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,600 And I thought, well, if he could do it, 139 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,200 most probably I could do that. 140 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,040 And it was literally no more thought out than that. 141 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:36,640 And then at 17, we had to do a week's work experience 142 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,400 as part of our A-level course. 143 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,320 And I did a couple of days at a vet, 144 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,080 but I knew by that point my A-levels 145 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,800 were not going to get me into any sort of veterinary science degree. 146 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,440 And so my teacher said, well, come on, 147 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,080 you're going to have to do something a bit more realistic as well. 148 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,320 And one of them said to me, 149 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,840 I've got a friend who works for this organization 150 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:03,680 called the Crown Prosecution Service. 151 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,880 Do you want me to see if I can get you a couple of days in their office? 152 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,200 And I said, OK. 153 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,440 Never heard of the Crown Prosecution Service. 154 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:12,480 Didn't know what it did. 155 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,800 And she set that up. 156 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,880 And I went and I did a few days work experience 157 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,600 at my local CPS office. 158 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,960 And they were very kind to me. 159 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:26,560 And they took me to court. 160 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,040 And I sat in a Crown Court and I watched a trial. 161 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,040 And it was almost that was it. 162 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,600 I thought, this is fantastic. 163 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,520 This is so interesting. 164 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,800 It's so relevant. 165 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,080 If you love people, then criminal law really fed that. 166 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,960 And I didn't really look back from that point. 167 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:45,840 Yeah. 168 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:46,720 You were hooked. 169 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:47,760 I was hooked. 170 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:55,040 Almost the minute I went, I think there's something about the drama of a courtroom 171 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,200 that just fascinated me. 172 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,680 I was able to sit with the instructing solicitor 173 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,000 who sits behind the barrister in court. 174 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,720 He had to pop out for a while and he says, 175 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,360 well, I'm out. 176 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,480 Just take a note of what's being said in court. 177 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,480 So I was there very methodically taking this note. 178 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,000 And the judge asked a question about something that had been said. 179 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,120 And the barrister turned to me and said, give me a note. 180 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,720 And then he read out my notes. 181 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,800 Well, I nearly collapsed with fear in case I got something wrong. 182 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,320 And then there was a bit of me that thought, 183 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:33,520 gosh, I've just contributed something to this process, which is so important. 184 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:34,400 And that was it. 185 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,240 That really was it from then on. 186 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,560 And I thought, this is where I want to be. 187 00:08:38,560 --> 00:08:39,840 This is what I want to do. 188 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,400 It's a really cool experience, isn't it? 189 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,080 And you talked to people over the years about work experience at school. 190 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,680 It's often a bit of an eye roll. 191 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:48,800 It didn't give anything. 192 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,440 And yours just sounds completely the opposite. 193 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,240 So maybe the average experience of sitting. 194 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,920 I went to do some work experience because I'd thought about law. 195 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,280 But it was just in the local solicitor's office and they just had me filing. 196 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:02,400 It couldn't be more different. 197 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,000 I'm sure if I'd gone along and they'd asked me to do the photocopying, 198 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,320 I may not have come out quite as inspired. 199 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:13,440 OK. 200 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,440 And so did you go straight to the CPS? 201 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,240 And after, presumably, you went and studied law, did your degree. 202 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,080 And so did you just go back? 203 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:21,840 Did you enjoy the CPS so much? 204 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,440 I went and studied law. 205 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:31,120 And that was quite a difficult journey for me because I can remember in my very last 206 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,880 parents' evening, my mother coming home and saying, 207 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,160 the teachers are saying, are you sure you want to do law? 208 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:39,600 You're so good at English. 209 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,520 Are you going to be able to manage a law degree? 210 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,840 And she said, are you sure about this? 211 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,760 And I remember thinking, well, now somebody said I might not be able 212 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:50,800 to do it. That's it. 213 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,120 And I said, I'm absolutely certain. 214 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,520 So what is it then about the criminal law that feeds the soul for you? 215 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,080 I think there's something about justice. 216 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:12,400 There's something about feeling that if you can somehow redress the balance for people 217 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:19,040 who've been wronged, that that is a really important societal aim. 218 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,360 And that sounds a little bit highfalutin. 219 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:28,400 But if you don't have a fully functional operating criminal justice system, 220 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:35,280 then all you're left with as a society is whoever's the biggest and the strongest 221 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,720 and the most threatening is the person who succeeds. 222 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,680 And I think I've got a pathological hatred of bullies. 223 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:48,960 The idea that survival of the fittest is the way that we as a society should work on any level, 224 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,720 just seems so profoundly wrong. 225 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:57,760 And criminal law and the way it operates is the antithesis of survival of the fittest. 226 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,880 So to be part of something where you hopefully redress the balance for people, 227 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:11,200 it doesn't only give you a huge feeling of satisfaction because you're helping individuals, 228 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:11,840 hopefully. 229 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:16,480 But there's something about the health of society you're really contributing to. 230 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,640 And for me, that was a massive driver. 231 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,120 There's something if you're going to throw yourself into something, 232 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,760 and I knew whatever I picked to do for a living, I would throw myself into it wholeheartedly 233 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,720 because I just tend to work like that. 234 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:39,200 And I thought, well, if I'm going to give this as much as any career needs for you to do it well, 235 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,800 I want it to be something where I feel I'm benefiting the sort of greater goods, hopefully. 236 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:51,120 Yeah, I've never thought about it like that before, the idea that the justice system is 237 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:57,520 countering that survival of the fittest and making us more sophisticated as a population. 238 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,280 That's a really powerful thing. 239 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,640 I'd never thought about that, never stopped to think about that, I suppose. 240 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:09,280 So that's really nice to know from a recipient of the justice system's point of view, I think. 241 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,520 But also, like you said there, something about, oh, that might sound a bit, you know, 242 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,280 I want to make a difference to the world. 243 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,280 And often people say that they apologize for that motivator. 244 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,120 I think it's one of the ones that people apologize for the most. 245 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:29,360 And yet, you know, we have a number of really big intrinsic motivators that human beings respond to. 246 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,400 So that need for growth and improvement is a big one. 247 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,680 The need for freedom and control is a big one. 248 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,960 And then the need for purpose and having an impact is a big one. 249 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,320 And they're the three biggies. 250 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,720 And the other two, we don't really apologize for being a bit independent or wanting some control. 251 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,240 We don't really apologize for wanting to improve ourselves. 252 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:55,280 But we tend to apologize for, I don't know, being egotistical enough to think we can change the world. 253 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:01,920 But actually, I think it's a huge driver for so many people that you want the work you do 254 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:08,400 to have a bigger impact than just the tasks you are fulfilling, you know. 255 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,960 And is that why you said about that pathological hatred of bullies? 256 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,440 So that's one to delve into where that comes from. 257 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:22,320 But did that influence you then taking up that mantle of the violence against women and rape and serious sex? 258 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,440 Because you've always had a bit of an interest in that, haven't you? 259 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,040 And a specialism in that area. 260 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,240 Absolutely. 261 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:36,720 When I first joined the Crown Prosecution Service, and I was lucky, I grew up in the sort of 262 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:43,520 the 80s, and it was the time of the sort of almost the power feminist, I think. 263 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:50,800 There were some really, and it was also open to huge amounts of debate, but it was the time of having it all. 264 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:56,800 And we were women going into a workforce where we were standing on the shoulders of giants. 265 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:04,640 The sort of first wave of women who had entered some of the more traditional professions in any sort of great 266 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,320 numbers was the generation before me. 267 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:14,000 But they really had to work to find their feet and get accepted and progress. 268 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,440 And I was sort of coming in on the slipstream of that. 269 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:30,160 At the same time, I think the law was beginning to evolve quite significantly around being more aware of the needs to approach violence 270 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:36,560 against women and girls, maybe in a very different way to that which had come before. 271 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:47,280 So when you think that rape in a marriage was only criminalized in the sort of 90s, and as I say, I always find that quite staggering. 272 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:53,280 So there was, and I can remember the law around stalking being brought in. 273 00:14:53,280 --> 00:15:00,560 And I was a very, very, well, I was a trainee lawyer as these sort of things were happening. 274 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:11,840 And that's along with the sort of the upbringing I had, where I was very much told that I could stand on my own two feet, 275 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:19,440 that I could have a career, that the fact that I was a woman was irrelevant to any of those aspirations. 276 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:30,800 And also the sort of experience I saw within my workplace, where it was very still male dominated right across criminal law in terms of everyone I met. 277 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:36,400 So policing, the Crown Prosecution Service, although less so, I have to say, even then. 278 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:44,400 But the courts and the judiciary, so everything I was experiencing was really at the tipping point, I think, at that stage, 279 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:50,800 where the law was becoming more aware of these things, the prosecution authorities, the judiciary. 280 00:15:50,800 --> 00:16:06,880 And for me, it felt as if it was just a natural area to become involved in, because it's, I suppose it played to my own aspirations as being an independent and empowered woman. 281 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:14,880 And also it was about trying to reframe and reshape some of the narratives around violence against women and girls. 282 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:26,240 That, it just absolutely spoke to something in me. It seemed like a really worthwhile way of focusing my career. 283 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:40,960 And yes, right from the start, really, I developed a specialism, started working very closely on domestic abuse, initially, casework and working with the police. 284 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:51,360 And it was at a time when the police were developing more sophisticated strategies for investigating and dealing with domestic abuse survivors. 285 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:58,800 And then I moved on into the realms of serious sexual offenses, where there were a lot of challenges. 286 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:07,760 And I wanted to be one of the people working to try and knock down some of the barriers that women coming into that process met daily. 287 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,160 And what do you feel you were able to contribute to then in that kind of world? 288 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:25,440 I think first and foremost, on an individual basis, as a front line lawyer, it was simply doing the work that I had, my casework as effectively as I possibly could. 289 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:31,040 And giving it all my attention and energy and passion. 290 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:46,400 But I think also I had the perspective of a woman prosecuting those sort of cases, and I brought my experiences as being a young woman in society into that world. 291 00:17:46,400 --> 00:18:00,560 And I think certainly on an individual basis, I'd like to think that I and the people I worked with on my cases really did come at it with a more victim focused approach to it. 292 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:17,600 And we started to sort of identify those myths and stereotypes, those assumptions that tend to exist in the world of prosecuting rape and serious sexual offenses and trying to challenge them and break them down in that casework. 293 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:24,400 And when you say that victim orientated, what does that actually mean? What were you doing differently than people had done before you? 294 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:41,760 I think it was really focusing on the victim survivor voice, not necessarily just falling into some of the very deeply embedded myths and stereotypes around rape and serious sexual offenses. 295 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:54,640 And also trying to bring the victim into the center of the cases that we were prosecuting and effectively tell their stories. 296 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:10,320 I think when I started prosecuting, what really profoundly struck me, we didn't have any special measures or specific areas of support in terms of legal provision for any victim, 297 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:16,480 but particularly vulnerable victims to give evidence with any sort of special measures. 298 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:38,560 So today we have a whole raft of special measures to help people tell their story as effectively as possible in court in terms of providing your evidence via a sort of TV link or having a screen or being able to give your evidence in stages. 299 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:56,080 So there are all sorts of provisions involved. When I started prosecuting, which is now well over 20 years ago, a victim had to get into a physical walk into a physical courtroom, stand in a witness box and give their evidence. 300 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:23,040 Whilst the defendant was sat in that room with them and there was no real protection or consideration to allow them to give their best evidence. So there's been a massive journey within criminal justice about acknowledging that that actually might not necessarily always be the best way for a victim to provide evidence, particularly about these really sensitive aspects. 301 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:40,480 What really struck me is there was a profound lack of empathy for that victim experience. They were almost meant to contribute to the system and speak their truth through the system without any level of support or understanding. 302 00:20:40,480 --> 00:21:00,080 And as I say, that we're going back now several decades and there's been a huge movement away from that and a huge acknowledgement. But as a young prosecutor, that really impacted me. And I thought this is a system that needs to change and develop. And I wanted to be part of that process. 303 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:05,600 And so that's why you lent into that kind of work, presumably, so that you could have an impact. 304 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:17,360 Absolutely. It was it was an area where I felt real passion for both the work and also where I could see that the law could develop. 305 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:28,320 And it was at a time when, as I say, criminal justice was beginning to see that things needed to change and develop and society was becoming more aware of some of the issues. 306 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:37,440 So it was perfect timing, really. It was an it was an ideal time to start developing a specialism in that area. 307 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:44,800 The law changed quite profoundly in the early 2000s when we had a new Sexual Offences Act. 308 00:21:44,800 --> 00:22:02,240 And I was very much involved in my role at the time in training and developing and understanding that piece of legislation and really supporting my colleagues to interpret it and apply it effectively. 309 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,040 And it just really snowballed from there. 310 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:21,040 I mean, it's so impressive and it's great for any women out there to know that there are women who are willing to do this kind of work and help move that whole thing forward and and realize that empathy is missing and do something about it. 311 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:30,400 I suppose what's intriguing me is what did it feel like though for you just as an individual to be immersed in that kind of crime? 312 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:41,800 Because it's very different to looking at robberies and that kind of sexually orientated violence against women or children. 313 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,960 How well, how did that feel? 314 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:55,000 I think you you. You focus on terrible things happen in the world and you are profoundly aware of that. 315 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:05,800 And when your day job is is to run towards some of those really bad things, you have to feel you're doing that with a sense of purpose, I think. 316 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:15,960 And so what I tried to do was always do the job, whatever that job was, as well as I possibly could. 317 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:27,840 And I suppose it goes back to that sense of justice, and I felt like I could play a very small part in hopefully balancing up that sense of justice. 318 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:41,720 And I've always tried to make sure that I've reminded myself that what I do in my day job is a very, very concentrated vision of the world out there. 319 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:49,320 And there are lots and lots and lots of people out there who will do miraculous things every day to help each other. 320 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:59,400 And the strange thing about criminal law is you really do see both the best and the worst side of the human condition on your desk every single day. 321 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:13,480 I have can genuinely say I have seen acts of incredible heroism undertaken by just people who got up that morning to go about a very normal life. 322 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:24,200 And they just happen to end up in a situation where bad things were happening and they their instinct was to help and support and protect. 323 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:35,840 And I find that quite incredible. And that may be when you look at it in the round, you try and focus on the wonderful things you see about the human condition 324 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:45,400 whilst thinking you are going to help maybe hopefully regain the balance as far as the really awful things that you see. 325 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:52,120 I suppose it gives you a level of realism about how deeply cruel people can be to each other. 326 00:24:52,120 --> 00:25:05,480 But on the other side, you do see people do remarkable things and you see people survive incredibly negative experiences and traumatic experiences 327 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:20,240 and go on to build from that truly amazing either lives as individuals or they take that experience and they channel it into something positive. 328 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:34,200 So I suppose it is just trying to see the positives in it and also constantly keeping a real focus on the fact that hopefully I can assist and support 329 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:40,120 and create a little bit of balance when these things do happen. So I'm contributing something. 330 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:46,720 Yes. So there's something there linked to that purpose and that initial sitting in that courtroom as a youngster and seeing, 331 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:55,120 oh, my goodness, I could be part of something that makes a difference, that gives a bit of fuel to getting through the work when the work is tough 332 00:25:55,120 --> 00:26:00,320 and emotionally tough, it sounds like at times. But there's something else going on there, isn't there? 333 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:06,160 That ability to put it in perspective or see the positive, see the other side of it. 334 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:12,960 Was that something that you were taught to do by the organisation or by other people or was that something just in you? 335 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:20,360 I think I'm fortunate in as much as I think I have a relatively upbeat outlook on life. 336 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:29,720 And so I think that helps. I also do think I was fortunate in as much as I worked with phenomenal people. 337 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:38,800 I always say about the Crown Prosecution Service, I'm never sure if seeing what we see on a regular basis makes us nicer 338 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:46,080 or whether the Crown Prosecution Service attracts people who want to be nice. I just don't know. 339 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:46,760 Chicken and egg. 340 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:57,840 Yes, chicken and egg. But I did work with some phenomenal people and I had some incredible mentors along the way 341 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:05,800 who really did teach me to focus on the positive outcomes and the practical elements of what we do. 342 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,600 And someone's got to do this work. It's quite interesting. 343 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:20,960 I went to a conference once on serious sexual offences and the delegates were made up of prosecutors, 344 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:29,160 police officers, various blue lights organisations, some medics who focused on this type of work. 345 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,800 And when the psychologist came out onto the stage, the first thing she said was, 346 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:40,800 you do realise you're the abnormal ones. And everybody sort of chuckles as you do. 347 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:46,080 And she said, no, no, no, I'm serious because most people spend a lot of time protecting themselves 348 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:54,160 from the idea that bad things can happen to anybody. And she said, you guys get up every day, you go about your lives, 349 00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:03,400 you bring up your children, you have relationships. And yet the backdrop of all that is, you know that these bad things can happen. 350 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,160 And she said, that's very unusual. That's not the way most people's psychology works. 351 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:18,080 So I do think there is a level of training within the organisation and a level of mentoring that helps you focus on the value of the outcome 352 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,080 rather than the emotional impact of the nature of the work. 353 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:29,200 We're far more sophisticated now as an organisation about dealing with people's welfare and wellbeing. 354 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:39,120 And we have specific programmes for our lawyers that deal with this sort of casework on a regular basis where we check in with them. 355 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:47,560 They can access support and we can make sure that it's not having an unduly negative impact on their psychology. 356 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:56,040 Back when I started doing this work, it was a little bit more about the role models that you had and the coping mechanisms you developed. 357 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:03,240 Yeah, so it's more of a lottery then if you've got somebody line managing you who was good at looking out for your wellbeing, then you'd won. 358 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,920 But if you didn't, you'd lost. Whereas now it's a bit more baked in. 359 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,200 It's very baked in. 360 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:17,080 And I can say that from working as an external consultant over that Covid period with a number of different organisations, one of them being the CPS. 361 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:25,960 And I remember the staff of the CPS talking so positively about how the organisation had reacted in terms of wellbeing and support. 362 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,760 And it's interesting you say, do we attract nice people? Do we make people nice? 363 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,400 And I think there's something about that environment, the resilience as well, that's going on. 364 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:45,440 So you're having to look at reality. So like that psychologist said, there's a whole just world hypothesis where we like to think we're in control. 365 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:53,840 It is an illusion, though, but we have this idea that in a just world, if I'm a good person and I do good things, then nothing bad will happen to me. 366 00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:05,840 Now, if you work in one of those blue light environments or your justice world, you're looking constantly, presumably at bad things happening to people completely outside of their control, in the wrong place at the wrong time, 367 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:14,800 you know, meeting the wrong person in the bar, whatever it might be, being born into a family, things that they can't change or control and bad things are happening. 368 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,560 And that is actually reality. 369 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:24,880 And what I suppose what you as a population are having to come to terms with is resilience to that reality. 370 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:37,080 And that resilience maybe makes you have to be a bit more optimistic and hopeful and look at the bright side when you can, because otherwise it would drive you mad or you'd leave, wouldn't you? 371 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,720 And go and do something else. You would leave if you couldn't tolerate. 372 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,440 Yeah. And so how has this affected, like I was saying at the beginning, you're the mother of a teenage daughter. 373 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,120 So being immersed in that kind of crime as well, does that affect how you parent? 374 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,920 Like, is she just locked at home right now, just not allowed to go out and speak to anybody? 375 00:30:53,920 --> 00:31:00,040 I wish. No, I would I always used to think it didn't affect me. 376 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:05,280 And then I think when you have a child, you realize that it does affect you. 377 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,240 You do. You do see the world through slightly different lens. 378 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:15,240 And there are there were some real challenges for me as she grew up. 379 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:21,560 And I must admit, I can remember thinking, oh, my goodness, at some point we're going to have to do the whole sleepover thing. 380 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:28,720 And I know there's a real debate just generally in the world of being a parent about sleepovers. 381 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:46,640 But I had to be very disciplined with myself about I am not going to let my child's upbringing and childhood be in any way tainted by the fact that I go into work and I see bad things happening across my desk. 382 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:56,280 So I suppose there had to be a little bit sometimes when maybe my instincts were to overprotect. 383 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,840 I had to sort of recognize that in myself and almost have the debate. 384 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,240 Is this is this reasonable? Because sometimes it absolutely would be. 385 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:11,120 And I might just follow in really good parenting instincts, sort of my my mother inspired the senses. 386 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:24,440 Or is this an overreaction based on the fact that she's the most precious thing in my life and I'm applying all these potential risks and fears to her. 387 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,360 So I've had to maybe address it in that way. 388 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,000 And she does do all the things that everybody else does. 389 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:41,480 And she's certainly not I don't think she tolerate now being locked up in a room, but she's certainly not locked up in a room. 390 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,400 I really didn't think she was. 391 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:53,240 Do you talk to her about the things that you know go on in the world in a way that she can kind of utilize maybe? 392 00:32:53,240 --> 00:33:02,280 Yes, and I think that was something I was one of the things that I think is absolutely critical for anybody is that first of all, 393 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:12,160 they understand that sometimes bad things do happen and that is terrible and it is unfair and it's not your fault. 394 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:23,480 And I think particularly with well, with any type of being the victim of any sort of crime, but maybe particularly if you're the victim of sex crime, 395 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:29,200 it does come with some huge societal baggage. 396 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:39,720 And so I've and there is almost and it is part of this sort of protective mindset that people put that, well, it wouldn't happen to me because. 397 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,040 And the truth is, you just can't legislate for the world like that. 398 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:56,120 And so I've always tried to talk about bad things happening in terms of bad things can happen to you and they're not your fault and they are very unfair. 399 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:01,000 And that you don't carry the shame for that. 400 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:08,120 The only people who should carry shame for bad things happening to somebody else are the people who've perpetrated those acts. 401 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:21,040 And that's you have to be resilient in the world and and realize that even when bad things happen, you can recover from them and you can carry on. 402 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:29,080 So rather than deal with specifically the nature of the work I deal with, I've tried to give her a voice. 403 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:37,680 Yes. I mean, and that's a powerful message for just women in general or all men facing this kind of violence against them. 404 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:53,520 And also, I hope she understands she is an utterly autonomous person and she has the right to decide what goes on when it directly affects her physically or mentally. 405 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,880 And she has a voice in that conversation and her voice should be the prevailing voice. 406 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:10,280 It's interesting with the case at the moment in France with the wife whose husband was organizing for men to come around and and rape her while she was passed out. 407 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:22,280 And she pushed for them to play all of the videos that he'd kept to think and she was quoted as having said, shame needs to change sides. 408 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:23,160 Powerful statement. 409 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,920 She's really powerful, isn't it? And you think what a brave move to make. 410 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:38,920 She's absolutely right. But how brave to do that, because that's not necessarily going to help her, but it could hugely impact on anyone who follows. 411 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:47,000 And and I think I think that's the the nature of the conversation that we all have to have within society. 412 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:53,320 I think it's so much broader than just being a prosecutor and prosecuting cases. 413 00:35:53,320 --> 00:36:01,320 It's about the way we educate our children. It's it's about some of the attitudes we bring into our relationships. 414 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:10,920 It's about being very clear with our our boys and our men what's acceptable and what's not. 415 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:22,720 And as I say, it's about giving. I think if I can do nothing else, hopefully I can give my daughter a voice and the ability to say no really loudly. 416 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:30,960 Absolutely. I was just thinking then that's a powerful message for the for the females or male victims of any sexual abuse or violence. 417 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,160 But how about the perpetrators of this? 418 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,760 Is there anything you would want that population to know? 419 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:43,600 Is there anything you've learned about that population over the years that you think of if those people were educated differently or thought differently? 420 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,280 Or is there something going on on that side of the table as well? 421 00:36:47,280 --> 00:37:00,760 Well, I just think I think as a society, we have to have a zero tolerance to people feeling that they've got a right to usurp somebody else's personal autonomy. 422 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:14,680 And I think it's almost as simple as that. If you know if every individual, but not just every individual, because you can't put the onus on victim survivors. 423 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:22,080 You've got to put the onus on, as I say, as I say to my daughter, you know, it's not it's not about what what happens to you. 424 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:28,920 It's about the perpetrator, the person who makes the choices that ends up with that as the consequence. 425 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:41,240 And I think there's something about us as a society being really clear that there are certain behaviors and actions and we all know them when we see them, if we're honest, 426 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:53,080 which are just simply not acceptable and we wouldn't like them if they were played out with us and we shouldn't tolerate them when we see them played out on others. 427 00:37:53,080 --> 00:38:07,560 And I think there is just something about if you can readdress that balance at a really early stage, then I think people are less likely to take that first step into that behavior. 428 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:19,640 What's going wrong, though? I mean, do you know? Just trying to think like what what is it that youngsters aren't being taught or told what's missing or what are the wrong messages? 429 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,880 It's a big question. I don't know if you can answer that. Just throw that one at you. 430 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:33,280 And I really wish I knew. Yeah. Yeah. And you would get lots of different if you asked our stakeholders in this environment. 431 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:47,920 So the women who are activists around the whole area of violence against women and girls on a daily basis, they could give you a myriad of answers. 432 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:57,120 I have no doubts to that question. And I feel I will be honest, I feel fundamentally illiquid to give you an answer to that one. 433 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:08,000 But I think there is something around trying to support particularly our young people to understand what consent looks like, 434 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:19,360 to understand it's both parties responsibility that to produce really strong role models about what a good man looks like, 435 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:25,720 what a kind man looks like, as well as what a strong woman looks like and what an empowers woman looks like. 436 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:33,840 And I think there's a whole raft of thought that we need to give a society to those sort of questions, 437 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:47,440 because when our children are developing into young adults, if they've got the right roadmaps, I think it will make women safer. 438 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:54,880 And I think I suspect men more confident about calling it out when they see it as well. 439 00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:00,880 Absolutely. And it's really striking me how having spent a career looking at this area of crime, 440 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,840 which I think naively I thought, oh, how does she do that? Because that mustn't be very nice, 441 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:14,160 has given you such an insight into what the next generation probably need and what society needs. 442 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:24,560 And so it is that people have to be brave enough to immerse themselves in this kind of work in order to change the nature of things. 443 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,040 And that's that's pretty cool. 444 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:33,120 As I say, I do a tiny bit. My contribution to this whole story is very small. 445 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:39,400 And we, you know, I said right at the beginning, I was standing on the shoulders of giants when I went into law. 446 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:53,280 I also have nothing but admiration for many of the women that I see out there who are campaigning, talking, striving for improvements in this area. 447 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,840 I mean, you say I play this small part and, you know, it's that humility is lovely. 448 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:06,080 What I'm interested to know is young Siobhan, who was sitting in that courtroom on her work experience. 449 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:16,440 What do you think she would think if she could see you here now doing this job, talking in this way, having this knowledge? 450 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,640 I was going to say she'd mostly say, why aren't you men in the world? 451 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,320 She'd be a little disappointed. She might be a bit let down, if I'm honest. 452 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:30,520 That says a lot about your character. We'll get into that in a minute. 453 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,600 So so this so you've got to this level of leadership. 454 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:44,920 So what's driven that just following on for that point, your younger self maybe wouldn't have sat here going, oh, my gosh, I became such an empowered, strong woman with such great insights. 455 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:51,840 She'd think, I'm sorry, why aren't you at the top of this organization? Why aren't you the prime minister? Why aren't you why aren't you changing these things you're talking about? 456 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,320 So you're thinking that's what you would have been thinking. 457 00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:00,080 I think so. Yeah. So there's something about your psyche that's like, get out there and do it and get so. 458 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:08,760 So what is that what's driven you to pursue more seniority in your career and go up the leadership ladder? 459 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:20,160 I don't know, because I my career is not binary by any manner or means. I spent a long, long time as a frontline prosecutor, 460 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:29,760 prosecuting all sorts of cases, although very much leaning towards the the the raping serious sexual offense casework. 461 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,000 And I spent about 10 years doing that. 462 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:42,680 And I have to say they were most probably in some ways the most satisfying 10 years of my life because I could touch it. 463 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:50,640 I had my cases and I worked with some fantastic police officer teams and some brilliant barristers. 464 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:59,080 And we built cases and we prosecuted cases and we convicted some very bad people. 465 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,720 And I found that hugely satisfying. 466 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:11,280 I think I was very fortunate in as much as I then had a line manager who who sat me down one day and said, 467 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,400 have you ever thought about progressing? 468 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,640 And I said, well, not not really. I'm very happy doing what I do. 469 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,840 Feel I do it well. And that was always important to me. 470 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,640 And he said, yes, but you've still got an awful lot of years left in your career. 471 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:34,400 And you don't want to be sat here thinking, I wish I'd taken this step at an earlier stage. 472 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,800 And it was just I suppose these things just get seeded. 473 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:43,440 It was something that he said. And I started thinking about it a little bit differently. 474 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:53,560 So then then you get to a point where you feel as if you're doing everything you can with the casework that you've got as an individual. 475 00:43:53,560 --> 00:44:01,840 And I think I wanted to do more. And I realized that there's only so much one person can physically take on and do well. 476 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:11,720 So then the next step is to progress. So you decide that you can run a team and then you've got the ability to maybe influence more of that work. 477 00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:14,520 And so I think that's what pushed me on to the next level. 478 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:25,640 But as I say, it wasn't a straight ambition driven sort of career trajectory from A to sort of Z. 479 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,440 Motivational drive for you wasn't about moving up the hierarchy. 480 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:34,400 And I suppose that power and status motivator, it was about making a difference. 481 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,040 And at that point, you were you were making a difference. 482 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,440 And possibly only when you got to the point where you thought, oh, I could make a difference to a little bit more. 483 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:48,240 Yes. Or in a slightly different way. Did that become intriguing or interesting? 484 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:56,800 That's exactly right. Until then, I didn't really think I was thinking about, would I stay doing this sort of casework or was I going to another type of casework? 485 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:04,440 Those were the sort of choices I was making. And then it was only when I thought, there's there's a more aspect to this. 486 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:10,680 And I'll only ever be able to do so much. And that's what pushed me on, I think, to the next level. 487 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:18,360 And for females out there that are wanting to progress in their career to make a difference or to move up the hierarchy, whichever. 488 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:26,160 What have you learned have been some of the challenges of being a female leader inside a big organization such as this? 489 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:39,640 I think there are a couple of things. One of the things that never ceases to surprise me is how women will wait until they think they're 100 percent ready for the next step. 490 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:48,640 Whereas I've had so many conversations with really exceptional women about, no, you need to take this. 491 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,600 If you want to take the next step, you are ready for the next step. 492 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,240 Yes, there are gaps, but everyone's got gaps when they go on to that next stage. 493 00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:03,760 And women having to have that push or that affirmation, whereas it does happen. 494 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:09,360 I'm not saying it never happens with with men, but it happens far less often. 495 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:15,000 I have more conversations with men where I'm having to say, do you think you're really ready? 496 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,920 Do you have you still got some gaps that when it comes to career progression? 497 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:24,200 So I think there is something fundamentally. 498 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:31,400 Women are quite conservative about their own career paths and their own career trajectory, 499 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,240 because I think they're very self-critical about their capabilities and skills. 500 00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:39,560 Absolutely. I mean, I can give the insight on that. 501 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,160 There's some fascinating research that's been going on. 502 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,360 I remember learning about it on my degree and it's been replicated across cultures, 503 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:53,440 which is that when you ask men and women to estimate their level of intelligence, their IQ, 504 00:46:53,440 --> 00:47:00,920 women estimate themselves as average in general and men estimate themselves as above average in general. 505 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:07,000 But above and beyond that, we all estimate dads as more intelligent than mums, 506 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:13,320 grandfathers as more intelligent than grandmothers and shockingly, sons as more. 507 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:18,520 Intelligent than daughters, and this is still being found today. 508 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,320 And there's something and then you just think, well, if if you go out into the world thinking, 509 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,760 well, I'm probably more intelligent than the next person, which is the generalized male psychology, 510 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,000 which obviously they can't be by the nature of it's a lot. 511 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,440 It's a normal distribution curve, guys. 512 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,680 Some of you have got to be in the middle. 513 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:41,680 But if you just have that confidence to think, well, I'm probably bright enough to pick up these extra skills 514 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:47,560 or I'm probably as bright as that person above me or two or three levels above me because I'm more intelligent than most. 515 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:55,560 If that is your like foundational belief, that gives you so much confidence and self-belief. 516 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,960 Whereas if females are thinking, well, I'm just average, really. 517 00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:03,400 So I'm going to have to work hard to prove myself. 518 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,160 Wait until I tick all the boxes. 519 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,120 And so there's something like, where is that coming from? 520 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,040 Why is that happening? 521 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:20,760 That's a whole field of kind of human psychology that that I think is is is not only intriguing, 522 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:30,360 but impactful on the workplace and also ambition for the kind of life you want or the career that you want. 523 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,440 And it's interesting that you're seeing it living and breathing inside an organization like this. 524 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:43,760 And as I said right at the beginning, we're quite you know, we've got really good representation at a senior level of female leaders. 525 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,120 So what would you tell them, those ladies? 526 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,840 Don't wait to be perfect because none of us will ever get there. 527 00:48:50,840 --> 00:49:00,880 Be honest with yourself because you have to be realistic about your abilities and your development level and stage. 528 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:12,720 But don't wait until you think every single I is dotted and T is crossed because every career journey is exactly that. 529 00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:20,400 It's a journey and you'll pick up skills and you'll develop things and you'll change as you go about it. 530 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,160 So there's a bit of bravery involved in that, presumably. 531 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:29,520 And then a bit of that, like you were saying, optimistic thinking, positive thinking and actually just. 532 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,760 And a little bit of either arrogance or self-confidence. 533 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:39,480 What was it you said at the beginning when when your mum had challenged you and said the teachers have said is law? 534 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,200 And you were like, right, now you've said that, I'm off, I'm doing it. 535 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:49,160 And oh, my goodness, we have heard so many of the women that we've interviewed say something similar. 536 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,160 So there's something it's a bit gritty, isn't it? 537 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,520 It's like, how dare you? How dare you tell me what? 538 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,400 How dare you put me in a box and say, I cannot. 539 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,880 I'm going to prove to you that I can. 540 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:04,800 And I think there is certainly I recognize I have that in me. 541 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:09,360 I might not necessarily in lots and lots of parts of my life. 542 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,200 I might not necessarily be the best at something. 543 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,240 I might not be the quickest to pick something up. 544 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,520 But I'm always the one that people you know, I was always most improved. 545 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,160 Most improved. And that's that growth mindset, isn't it? 546 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,760 Why are you most improved? Well, because you're going out there and having a go and thinking, don't tell me I can't. 547 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,200 That just makes me want to have a go more. 548 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,120 And when we go out and have a go, well, that's when we learn and that's when we develop, isn't it? 549 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:39,080 And so you you know, you were saying it's taken a good few years to feel like you're really comfortable in this role. 550 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:47,320 So even when you get to this level and you'd already been a CCP in another area and this area is just different, a bit more complex, a bit bigger. 551 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:54,520 And so it takes time and presumably along the way, you feel some anxiety with that in terms of, is this the job for me? 552 00:50:54,520 --> 00:51:00,240 Can I? Absolutely. And I think I also think that's healthy to a degree. 553 00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:08,640 One of the things that really struck me when I started to go into much more senior roles is the people who actually tell you 554 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,880 you're wrong start to diminish quite considerably. 555 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:17,760 And I found that quite terrifying because you need that counterbalance. 556 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,360 You need that positive, critical challenge. 557 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,880 Criticism. And it's going to be constructive. 558 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:29,600 But it's really important for you to grow and improve. 559 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:35,720 You need that critique. And so I think the ability sometimes to almost do that to yourself, 560 00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:46,040 have a look at yourself and say, well, actually, OK, you're at this point, but you could be with a bit more effort or with a different approach at this point. 561 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:53,320 I think it becomes quite important to drive you to continue improving as you get into more senior roles, 562 00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:58,200 because there are less people who are well placed to do that for you. 563 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:04,200 Yes, because you become more powerful. Yeah. And so people are more sycophantic. 564 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,720 I'm just going to go, that's a brilliant idea, Siobhan. Just wish I'd thought of it myself. 565 00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:12,120 Or if nothing else, crack on because it's your responsibility. 566 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:16,440 If you fall over, that's on you. Either way. 567 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,280 Either side of that. Yeah. Now you've got to this. Well, what's next? 568 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:28,760 Do you know? At the moment, I am still I've still got lots and lots to do in this role. 569 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:34,920 And it's full of challenges, full of of excitement. 570 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:42,200 And so at the moment, it's about really understanding it, conquering it, 571 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:48,880 feeling as if I'm determining where it goes rather than having to to adapt myself to it. 572 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:53,200 So there's still a whole piece of work to be done there. 573 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,720 I don't feel like the job is over in any sort of way. 574 00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:59,720 So I don't think I'm going anywhere for a goodly while. 575 00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:06,320 Then I really don't know, because I've hit that magic 50 number. 576 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:12,040 And that that is fascinating because I remember when I turned 50 saying, 577 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:17,360 it's the first time in my life as a woman, I haven't had a script written for me. 578 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:27,040 When you're you're either a daughter or you're a sister or you're a girlfriend or you're a wife 579 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:33,880 or you're a mother. And now suddenly it's almost as if society stops telling 580 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,760 middle aged women what they should be because they sort of lose interest in you. 581 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:45,040 And I find that quite liberating because it means for the first time ever, I'm not having to 582 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:50,480 think about societal requirements. It's just really what do I want? 583 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,920 I can massively relate to that. 584 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,920 I think being in my fifth decade, just like this can now just be about what I want to do. 585 00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,600 And I think that's wonderful. 586 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,560 And like you say, you get more maybe less relevant to society. 587 00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:07,520 Also, maybe they're just a bit more scared of us now because we're not afraid to tell them what we think. 588 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:08,640 Terrifying. 589 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,560 I did. 590 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,800 A terrifying population of women. 591 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,520 I love I love being a 50 year old woman. 592 00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,000 I think my tribe rocks. I really do. 593 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:26,480 There's nothing I tell you if I had to solve any problem, I'd put a bunch of middle aged women on it 594 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:34,480 because the life experience, the ability to collaborate, the drive, the honesty. 595 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,120 I don't think you could beat our tribe for that. 596 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,640 I love it. It's brilliant. 597 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,520 And what would you if you could go back and whisper in your young Siobhan's ear, 598 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,200 what would you tell her? Would you give her any tips about life or? 599 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,040 Think about what you think you can achieve and double it. 600 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,440 Wow, that's great. 601 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,200 Siobhan, it has been absolutely fascinating to talk to you. 602 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,320 Lovely to hear about your leadership journey. 603 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:08,280 Really enlightening to hear about the work that that you and your colleagues are doing to just improve society and improve the world. 604 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,240 So thank you so much for joining me. 605 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:13,400 Thank you. It's been a pleasure. 606 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,960 In the next episode, I contacted women in medicine, women in media, women in finance. 607 00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:27,800 I managed to get an advert in Cosmopolitan and I had a great ambition to be in Cosmopolitan for another reason, actually. 608 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:33,720 It was multiple orgasms is what I wanted to be in, because they were talking every article in Cosmo. 609 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:38,720 Very Cosmo.