Welcome to LeadHERship Journeys. I'm psychologist Leona Deakin and I'm fascinated by leadership,
what it takes to become one and what it means to be a great one.
But I'm particularly interested in female leaders because they're rarer.
As women and girls we are often told that it is tougher to get to the top as a female,
so what can we learn from those who've already done it?
On this episode...
I find myself in rooms with female founders quite a lot and they're definitely echo chambers.
But then recently I had a very different experience. The last podcast I was on was
with a business guru guy and he was completely dismissive of it all. He was like,
if you ever want to draw 130k you need to make at least five millions. Like,
you haven't listened, you know. I'm not here to draw 130k from a baking business. I'm here
to be the person I want to be and that means working less because otherwise there's nothing
left. Can you be a working mum and also a business success?
Today on LeadHERship Journeys we have a sweet treat in the form of Lisa Shepherd, co-founder
and director of The Biskery, a company that provides kindness in biscuit form.
The fact that Lisa and her co-founder Saskia took a great idea and turned it into a successful
business is not the only reason I wanted to speak to her today. They also have a company mission of
bringing more female qualities into the business world. So I wanted to find out why that matters
so much to them and how are they doing it. Welcome Lisa. Thank you. I've done a nice intro.
Thank you so much. So The Biskery, that's been going since 2021, is that correct?
As a business. It was a glorified hobby for a long time before then. So we launched in 2016.
And so just tell us a little bit about what the business provides for your customers.
So we are essentially a manufacturer of branded and personalised biscuits. 80% of what we do is
for businesses, so corporate orders, logo biscuits for events, launches, the lot and 20% is for the
end consumer. So we have a little web shop where people can buy biscuits for special occasions. So
we do personalised boxes for birthdays, anniversaries, arrivals of babies, all of that.
It's super lovely and you can even have your own face put on a biscuit.
You can. So that's another new arm of the business where we go to exhibitions and conferences as an
extension of the sales team of the businesses that book us to be there. But like people would have
branded water bottles or coffee machine and we print people's faces onto the biscuit to engage
more people to the stand and keep them there for a bit. I love it. The narcissistic side of my
personality is just thinking I could just order loads of biscuits with my own face on it. Just
to give it out to friends and family and just make them. I love that. And then there's a nice
little link between you and I in that you say that the business started to take off for you really
when Penguin Random House contacted you and Penguin are my publisher as a writer. So that's
quite nice. So just tell us a little bit about that. So why did that change the game a bit?
Saskia and I started baking from home after our kids had gone to bed. So it was very much a hobby
and we sold our wares from a little market stall. But we had both a background in digital marketing
so we knew how to be found online on Google. And about a year into us baking at home in the evening
selling at those farmers markets at the weekends, we were approached by Penguin publishers. So they
had found our website by Googling I guess branded biscuits. We didn't even really, I have no idea to
this day, but they found us and asked if we could create biscuits for a book launch in Harrogate.
And we said yes, I had no idea how to do it. Found someone who could 3D print the logo they wanted on
the biscuit and hand deliver to Harrogate. And we were like, hold on. So there's one, there's
businesses who need this. Two, they find us and three, they trust us with their order. So
okay, so this is all of a sudden opening a huge door for us. And I think that same year we made
3000 biscuits for Amazon at Christmas, Little Gingerbread Men with the iconic Amazon
arrow as the smile. And that changed everything. So we then obviously did our Google SEO magic to
attract more businesses and that's where we moved into.
Yeah, and that's when it started to feel real presumably because suddenly you've got big brands.
Big orders, big order volumes. It was a lot more, we could streamline it a lot more because obviously
if they order 3000 biscuits, they don't want them the next week. We know we had months to do or weeks
to make them until then it wasn't a business, but then we're like, this could actually work that
week. There's something left at the end. And what I love about that story is when you said,
we had no idea how to do it, but we just said, yeah, okay, we'll do it. So what was that
conversation like between the two of you? Were you in a bit of like, did you think of saying no? Was
that even considered or did you just go for it? We are the type of people who make things work. So
we didn't do it on a whim going, no idea. If it doesn't work, it's just going to be rubbish.
It was like, we're going to make it work. We didn't totally know how, but we had confidence
that we would find a solution because that's very much the people we are like problem solvers and
solution finders. And we had heard of Brown Net Biscuits, we just didn't really know how to do it.
It was more the timeframe that we had and obviously the jobs and the kids and if we'd had all day to
research this, it wouldn't have been so scary. We made it work. So there's a few things there
that are quite intriguing that I think we'll delve into in a little bit. So you were saying the kinds
of people you are, problem solvers, decision makers. So that will be interesting to just get
a bit of insight into. But then also I think the power of there being two of you, I'd be
quite interested to just find out how that's helped. But before we do that, just take us back to
younger Lisa. So when you were maybe late teens, early twenties, what were you anticipating
your career might look like? Did you have an idea or not? Well, funny enough, when I was a teenager,
I once said to my family, I'd like to be a baker and they totally nipped it in the bud. They were
like, you're going to get up at 3am. And they knew I liked my sleep. So that was like, okay.
And, you know, like you have to work really hard and you should go to uni because you're good at
school and all of that. So they were having none of that. My first job then wasn't a bakery,
but it was awful. Didn't stay there very long. So then I almost had no choice but to go into
university. But I come from a family, my dad's side, they're all doctors, my mom's side are more
like social workers. And I didn't want to do either of those. So I was a little bit lost.
And then I decided to just study what I fancied, what I really enjoyed. And that was languages.
So that's what I did. And when people asked me what I wanted to do with that afterwards,
I had no answers. Like, I don't actually know. I just want to do this because I really enjoy it.
To also pick something that you enjoy rather than maybe what your family were directing you
towards or influencing you towards. I think a lot of people do that, don't they?
Where did the love of baking come from then? Why did you want to be a baker? Do you know? Can you
remember? I think I've always had a sweet tooth, but my mom doesn't. So there was no sweets in my
house. She never baked. She baked for my birthday and I loved that. So when I went to my granny's
house, she always made cake. So there was always my granddad still to this day has cake at three
o'clock. So he's the luckiest man alive. I was very much drawn to that. I guess it was the
forbidden thing. Sugar and treats. And then for my 25th birthday, my grandma gave me a recipe folder
with her most iconic bakes and other recipes. And that was such a gift. I loved that. And so yeah,
I think my love stems from that. Something that I wasn't totally allowed to have or wasn't a big
part. But then when I had it, it was just so special. Yeah. And that kind of difference
between no sweets at home and then granny's house. Okay. So you went off to do languages,
weren't really sure where that was going to end up. So what did you do then? What was your job
out of university? So when I finished uni, I kind of wanted to postpone that awful looking for a job
because it's hard for any graduate, I think, but especially for language graduates. So I said to my
now husband, then boyfriend, that I'd like to just postpone that for a bit. And how about we go
traveling? So we travelled the world for 15 months and I just kind of packed the I have to apply for
a job at some point. And when I got back, I just applied, I opened monster and all the job boards
and I just put in my languages and I looked what was coming. I applied for jobs in Germany and the
UK because my husband's English. Then I got a job offer for working in a digital marketing agency.
They were looking for German speakers to look after the German clients because their thinking
was it's easier to teach a German speaker marketing than to teach a marketeer German. So they were
desperately looking for German speakers who were happy to relocate to Leeds and I was. So that's
where my career really started. And I got like intensive training for three months. I learned
everything about digital marketing. It was almost like a second degree. And my language skills were
really handy. And also what I'd studied was more than languages was like communication. And so all
of that all of a sudden made sense and I could use it and apply it. And it was brilliant. I loved it.
Did you? I was going to say, did you enjoy it? Because that's something that you hadn't expected
to get into and you just kind of followed your nose. Yeah, I mean, I loved it in the sense of how
powerful it was. You know, we were doing the thing that we were taught and all of a sudden
our clients saw all these results and it was like, wow, like I contribute to them. Haven't been so
much more visible online. And they kept saying to us, what you're learning here is really powerful.
It's really powerful. And we were like, yeah. So when we then started doing it for our own business,
we had this in the bank was like, oh yeah, let's just, but again, we didn't really,
we just did the work. You know, we weren't like measuring it or anything, but it clearly worked
because Penguin Publisher came after a year of us doing this. And today we're number two still for
branded biscuits. If you Google branded biscuits, we're number two when it's little us and you know,
there's huge companies doing this. So amazing, isn't it? So how long did you do that for then?
Eight years in the end. Yes. So what did you learn about yourself over those eight years? Do you think?
I think I learned that I'm a good team player, that I am possibly a bit of a people pleaser. So I was,
it's hard to, I was always the one who wanted to make it work for the client and for my team.
But I would speak up if I saw something that didn't work for me. I didn't like to be micromanaged
because I had a lot of trust in my work and in my work ethic. So I remember once I had a manager who
just constantly told me how to do things and I was like, listen, I'm getting the results for the
client, just leave me alone. And I'm still like that. I think that's the bit I didn't enjoy working
I think in any job, just having someone who, I don't mind someone pushing me or helping me to be
better at what I am. But if it's, you know, for the protocol or you know, tick boxes and all of that,
I'm a bit of a free spirit. So that, that kind of suffocated me. I was like, oh, just, just let me
do my job. Like I've got this. Yeah. So someone constantly checking up on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you
know, it makes sense for meeting sakes. Like, can I just do my work? And so how did it then transpire
that you and Saskia decided? Cause she was there as well. Is that where you met her? Yeah. So she
looked after the Dutch clients and I looked after the German. Yes. And you were telling me that you
guys just would bake together just as friends, just after you'd had your children. Is that correct?
Yeah. So we didn't really, we're both quite new to Leeds. We didn't have a big network of people.
And we, we saw something in each other. We were kind of drawn to each other. We were both not big
drinkers and the team were, you know, young professionals. So every Friday they would go
out and after work, they would go out for drinks. And Saskia had a baby at that stage. I didn't yet.
We were like, let's do our own little way of socializing. And that ended up being baking.
And it was just a way for us to do something. And that makes it then easier to, to share stories.
Doesn't it? When you do something with your hands, it feels easier than sitting there and, okay,
tell me your life story. So we just naturally got really close and shared a lot of our story
and what was happening in our world. Can you remember who first had the idea that you could
do something together? So Saskia had had a little apple pie business before. And when she told me
that I was just totally, you know, when someone tells you something, you're like, that's amazing.
Like, I was like, how? Tell me all about it. And other people were like, oh yeah. But I was just
so interested. So she was like, oh yeah, I did this and I registered there. And then, so I was
like, let's do that. But it took me having a daughter to then, to then actually make it happen.
Until then we were just messing around and like, oh no, it's not the right time.
So what was it about having your daughter that changed? Did that change the way you
saw work or the way you saw yourself or? Yeah, all of that.
What did that, yeah, tell us about that. I think it made me realize how precious and
finite life is in a way. I think it's such a big thing to become a mother that I was like,
I don't want to waste any second of this life anymore. And not that work was wasting life,
but it wasn't totally inspiring. You know, it was a good job. I loved it in the beginning.
But I guess the framework of the nine to five was starting to grind on me. And I wanted to see my
family when I wanted to see my family and I couldn't because I had to take annual leave.
And then at Christmas they weren't sure if they could give us that leave if the whole international
team disappeared. And maternity leave, you know, it was like, so, you know, it was a real struggle to
find my place in the business after maternity leave. So they, for example, they wouldn't give
me my senior title back because I wanted to work part time. And they said, I can't work client
facing anymore. And it just felt also unfair and very disempowering. And I guess essentially
that's what made us or made me put my energy into our own little thing, even though it wasn't
something that was driving revenue at that state big enough. But it was just like my energy went
there. And I guess slowly it started to, you know, fire the coals in that little thing. That's now
the bisquery. Yeah, that's lovely. But there's something there about your values, I suppose,
bubbling up to the surface when you'd had your daughter. It was reminding me, I remember very
clearly sitting with my daughter when she was very young and thinking, oh my gosh, I can never go
back to work full time. Because even when she goes to school, someone will have to drop her off and
pick her up. And I'd worked in consultancy, it'd been long hours, weekend work. And it not crossed
my mind until she was present and in my arms that this has just changed everything. And I think that
is, although obviously, becoming a parent affects the dads hugely in so many ways. But I think
there's something fundamental about women and their work that is impacted, isn't there, by that,
having that child and then being the kind of mum you want to be? Yeah, definitely. Because
in Germany, women get like up to three years of maternity leave and they get a good pay. And you
know, it's not a problem to do that. And he has obviously a year 15 months and then you really
have to be back. So I only went back two days a week because I said, I'd rather take a massive
pay cut than missing time with my child. And that almost positioned me then, in what my priorities
were, I was like, okay, we can make ends meet with me working two days and my husband was working
full time. And that is feels so much more right to me than, than kind of work in that career.
It was like, all of a sudden, it's like, that's not important anymore. But I did have that,
especially after a year or so. It's like, there's more in me, you know, I love being a mum. And when
you asked me what I wanted to be as a teenager, I would have probably first said a mum. That was
always my thing. I definitely wanted a family. But then there was this, okay, this is great.
But there's this fire in me almost that needs an outlet. And work couldn't be that anymore.
And so we often hear that, you know, it's such incredibly hard work to start your own business,
to be the entrepreneur, you have to be all in and be prepared to give it your everything.
And what's quite interesting about what I'm hearing in your story is this was a bit more
of a value based business. You wanted this to give you the freedom to have the life.
So how did you achieve that? Have you achieved that? Or has the reality been different to what
you hoped? I think looking at other businesses, I would say we've achieved it. So Saskia and I
work school hours, we drop our kids at school, pick our kids up every day. We try to only work
four days. Of course, there's some evening work and checking emails when the kids start swimming
or whatever. But essentially, we have built that framework that we wanted. We can also both work
from anywhere now. So in the summer, we might go to our home countries and spend time with our
families. But then when there's a gap in the day, we sit down and work for three hours or, you know,
whatever needs to be done. So I think it's that freedom, ultimately, that we were craving that we
have managed to weave into the business. It's not perfect. So there's definitely days where
I fall short. I either I'm not the mom I want to be, I'm not the business owner I want to be. And
I am also starting to realize that's just life. You know, we aren't perfect. And there's also no
balance. I think what balance means is some days it swings that way. And the other day, it swings
the other but to be level is probably, you know, happens maybe one day a year that actually you're
winning. So I think balance is more like looking over a longer period of time. It hasn't felt
forced for us. And I think that is because we didn't have a business plan. And we didn't have
the big okay revenue goals. And how does it look when it's finished? It was just, we need to build
something that works better for us and our families. That was our main focus and everything else came
after. So to this day, that is how we hold ourselves accountable. We're like, is this
working for us? And not from, of course, it needs to work. Is any money? Are we making any profit?
Is there anything? Is there a bottom line? But it's also how are we feeling? Are we the moms we want
to be? Because we knew we couldn't work 80 hour weeks and be the moms we want to be. So we're very
much challenging the notion that business owners, you know, it's a 24 seven job and you can never
switch off and our kids force us to switch off, you know, they deserve us to step away from it and go,
you know, shut down the laptop and go this has to wait right now because they have something important
to tell me. I mean, this, it sounds so lovely. It sounds, I mean, excuse the pun here, but you baked
in, you baked in the idea of this being a family orientated occupation right from the start.
So whereas people, as you say, might set financial goals or growth goals or, you know, all those
strategic visionary goals, your goal has been to make it work for the breadth of your life,
for that bigger picture. And that's something that you and Saskia keep revisiting from the
sounds of it and keep checking yourselves against. We do because, you know, a working mom isn't a
working mom because it totally depends on your circumstances, on the ages of your children, on
what your children demand of you. So most of our team members are moms as well, but not one story
is identical to the next. You know, one team member is a single mom, so her challenges are
completely different to the one who has one son, to the one who has two little girls. So, you know,
it's completely, it's completely different. So it's ever changing. And that's, I think, the nature
of business and life in general. But for us, it's very important to keep checking out like, okay,
is this still working? Is this still meeting why we set out to do this?
And have you faced resistance to that, just in terms of the practicalities of it, or even the
business world at large, that you're coming at it from a different perspective as that provided?
Yeah, it's challenging. I think above anything, it's a massive logistical challenge to align
everybody. Just think of school holidays, you know, how we, so we're always like half the staff are
there over summer, but then summer is naturally a quiet time, because there's not many events,
and lots of people are off. So they're not planning big events. So again, it works somehow,
we've made it work. And we've got a little database of seasonal workers who can help us out.
So again, I guess if something's important enough for you, you make it work somehow.
The other resistance, I find myself in rooms with female founders quite a lot, and they're
definitely echo chambers. So there's people nodding and going, oh, it's amazing. But then recently,
I had a very different experience. The last podcast I was on was with a business guru guy,
and he basically analyzed our business and then told us what he thought afterwards. And he was
completely dismissive of it all. He was like, you're never going to make this work. There's just
never going to be a bottom line. I was like, hold on, but we are profitable. Like, yeah, but if you
ever want to draw 130k, you need to make at least five million. I was like, who says I want to draw
130k? I was like, you haven't listened. I'm not here to draw 130k from my baking business. I'm
here to be the person I want to be. And that means working less, because otherwise there's
nothing left. I can't spread myself so thinly. It's not sustainable for me. And I don't think
it's sustainable for anyone to work 80 hour weeks and have a family. Yeah. And it's seen
work as something that fits into that jigsaw of life as one part of it, rather than the kind of
fuel. I think there's a lot of theories and approaches to business, which is about the
financial success. And that's all that you can measure it. Absolutely. But that whole idea of
working to serve some other purpose, obviously we all need to eat and live and we want a certain
standard of life. So we all need the money for that. But I think what I'm hearing from you is
this is about more than that. It's about that kind of feeding your soul a little bit, doing the things
that you love with people you care about, so that you can have the family life that you want. And
all of those things being linked, rather than the job being over there. And then you come back and
try and fit the rest of your life around whatever the demands of the job. Definitely. And then also
weaving that into what we're actually selling. So I think our biscuits carry that vibe all along.
Yes. So let's talk about this. Because this is lovely. So it isn't just that you started a
business that fit in with the school runs and allowed you and Saskia to be great mums and to
help other women have that flexibility. That's all wonderful. But the actual nature of the business
itself. So this whole idea of female qualities and kindness in biscuit form. Tell me about that.
What's the inspiration behind all of that? So I think we didn't realize the impact our biscuits
had until the pandemic. So when we went into lockdown, Saskia and I looked at each other and
we said, okay, there's no corporate events. So there's no money coming in. We have nothing to do
aside from obviously homeschool the kids and do the other job because we still had the other jobs
at that point. But we wanted to do something to fill the gap we would normally use for baking.
So we said, well, we're not key workers. We can't volunteer because we have the kids and we don't
want to put ourselves out there and risk anything. But we can bake and spread some hope and kindness.
So we decided to launch something that we called Kindness Biscuits. They just had encouraging
messages on them. So stay safe, missing you, hugs and kisses, thinking of you. And people could
nominate someone they wanted us to send a biscuit to. Because we didn't have an e-commerce website
at that stage. It was very much people sending us emails saying, I want this and we would process
it and send them out for them. So we then said, okay, just email us people and we send free biscuits
out. And then we had a very kind donor who would pay for the postage. So we only had to cover the
ingredients, which isn't that expensive, and our time. And then I think Leeds List got wind of it
in a Facebook group, a local Leeds Facebook group, and then New Yorkshire Post. And before we knew
it, we got an email per minute asking for those free biscuits. And we were like, we can't sustain
this anymore. We have, you know, there's not enough flour. Of course, because actually, we were
supplier flour. Yeah, I remember that. So yeah, we had to limit it. But the feedback we got was just
so touching. So there were people saying, I sent your biscuit to my sister who works in a COVID
ward and it made her cry. And she felt so close to us. We have not been able to see her for eight
weeks. We're so worried about, you know, just those human stories. And we were like, wow, this is
powerful. You know, this is just the biscuit we thought, but it wasn't just a biscuit. So when the
lockdowns were lifted, and the world started to open again, we decided to keep it going somehow,
because we said, this has done something to us. You know, this has shown us the power of
how those biscuits can bring people together. So we decided to launch Gratitudes Day, which still
happens now. So every Tuesday, we have a limited amount of free thank you biscuits. So you can go
to the website. It's not per email, via email anymore. It's a bit more professional. So you
can check out with using the discount code that's displayed on the page. So it's all really visible,
and send a thank you biscuit to someone and just thank them for whatever it is, including a gift
note. And there's no strings attached. There's no hidden costs. The postage, everything's free.
And just because we really believe in that, paying it forward, because again, we love those human
stories. But from a business perspective, what those kindness biscuits did for us is it established
us as a brand that wants to do good. And people wanted to support us because of that. So when we
said we have to limit the free biscuits, people said, Oh, can I buy biscuits? Well, like, well,
yeah, the shop is open. So people went to the web shop. And at a time where the corporate orders
were dead, we had a 400% increase of our B2C orders. And that's really what gave us the
confidence to quit our jobs and say, you know what, if we can thrive in a pandemic when other
people, you know, so many businesses were struggling, then maybe we can just do this.
And then we did. So without these kindness biscuits, we probably wouldn't be in our.
It's lovely, isn't it? And it's, it's making me think of Simon Sinek. Have you seen him talk
about the power of why and that whole idea of we buy because we have some emotional connection to
a brand, it makes us feel a certain way. So like you say, to present yourselves as,
as an ethical business, as a business that wants to spread kindness. And that leads us onto
the feminine elements, because, you know, in a business sense, you know, being kind would be
seen as a more feminine stereotypically, obviously there's a plethora of kind men in the world,
but it is seen as something that's maybe a little bit softer. And so you're saying that's actually
giving you a bit of an edge. Yes, absolutely. And I think when we entered the business world,
and what always has kind of put me off being part of the world of business was the notion that you
have to, you know, get your elbows out and make space for yourself and push everybody down and,
and away. And we were like, there has to be another way, there's enough to go around,
look at how many chocolate brands are out there. Why can't we celebrate our competitors and kind
of establish us for something that we are known for that isn't copying what someone else does.
And, and not be afraid to also be a player in this field. And you know, how about a standout for
how good we are rather than for bad mouthing the others. So again, I couldn't find any inspiration
from many businessmen or women, because I found when women were successful in business,
they just acted like men. And I thought that why don't we embrace what, what we stand for?
And again, I'm generalizing, I'm in my masculine energy a lot of the time. But then I have to
remind myself sometimes, you know, when I'm in the doing stuff mode, that like, hold on, just
breathe, step back a moment. This is not how we do things here. You know, we want to really like
embrace that community and people over profit, even though we are profitable, it is important
to us. And you know, we're not a CIC and we're not a charity, we kind of want to carve out this niche
for, for women in business and say, Hey, you can have financial success and build something that
works, but you don't have to change who you are and what's important to you.
And so how have you done that? So how have you got in there and run the business without
putting your elbows out and, you know, pushing yourself in and getting into your masculine
energy? How have you done it differently? I think one is with the kindness biscuits.
That was an example that other people would have said, Oh, it's exclusive now we're charging even
more because flowers more expensive, you know, at a time where on paper, it made no sense to give
things away for free because we had less money because there were no orders and we had less time
in a sense. So we were like, but that's what felt right. So it's very intuitive. So it's very hard
to give you like, we did this and that I think a lot of the time we just listen to what God told
us and, and what we want to do. And a lot of the times it, it happened with our team members as
well. The people came to us and were like, they're amazing. We want to work with them. One lady said,
I have another job offer and they're paying me this. So I kind of have to go with that because
that's the money I need to make this work. And we were like, okay, let's just crunch all the
numbers. And, and we were like, again, this makes no business sense because we're paying for it.
More than we can afford, but we know she's so right for the business and she can probably help
us get to where we need to be. So let's do this because it feels right. And then we had another
member of staff who came from Ukraine and she said, I would love, love to quit my Ukrainian job
that I'm doing remotely to kind of find my feet here in the UK, but I have to work full time to
make ends meet. And we're like, again, it made no business sense to do that, but it felt right.
Cause we knew she was an amazing asset to the business and she could help us out in so many
areas with her wealth of knowledge. So there's just so many decisions that we, well, we switched
off the head a little bit and went with the gut and put a lot of trust into things.
And is that worked out for you? Has that been a good, cause some people would say, well, that's
a bit of a gamble.
Maybe. I mean, I say we switched the head off. We still, you know, we have our accountancy,
we have our accountant, we have a software, so we look at our numbers. So we're not like, oh yeah,
I'd love to do that. And you know, the castle's in the sky. So we, we have that masculine energy
side of, you know, the spreadsheets and all of that. But I think it's easy to get hung up in that
and just look at the figures. Cause sometimes stuff happens that you can't even explain, you
know, you speak to someone, you have a nice conversation and three months later, they,
someone comes to you and places a huge order and you're like, oh, I'm going to do this.
And it's off the back of that nice conversation you had. So I think you can't always measure
things and go, if I do this, if I do AB will happen. It's not as easy as that.
No, it's lovely. And what you're embodying, I suppose, is that whole leadership approach,
which says, if you look after the people, the people will look after the work.
And in so many corporate environments and public sector organizations, the opposite is done a
little bit like you was saying about having the manager in that digital marketing environment,
who was checking up on the work and you felt, well, you're just micromanaging me, the person,
trust me, the person, and I will do the work. But managers sometimes don't feel that they can,
they're too anxious or nervous to leave the work to you and just look after you.
And what you're doing is you're saying, well, we're fundamentally going to look after the
people, even if it costs us on paper, we'll look after you because we think at some point in the
future, you will realize that investment. Because I'm thinking you is going to contribute to that
where we are. Yeah. So we saw that as an investment and it's always. That's brave.
Paid off. Yeah, maybe, maybe. But we also felt we had no other choice because losing them wasn't
an option. You know, they would have moved on and gone elsewhere and would have left a huge gap for
opportunity. So it's, it's always paid off for us. Which again, kind of counters that whole philosophy
of, well, nobody's indispensable, which is quite a macho kind of business philosophy, isn't it?
So you're, and you're doing the opposite. You're like, oh no, they are indispensable. This person,
we want to keep them as an individual and they feel like a fit. And I think what's interesting,
just going back to something you were saying earlier about the digital marketing company saying
we want a German speaker because we can teach you the skills of marketing, which is easier.
And I think often businesses miss that whole thing of if someone has your values or if someone has
the right kind of motivation or the right kind of passion for what you're doing, well, you can teach
them the technical bits of that, but you can't do that the other way around. They might be the most
skillful, technical individual, but they don't share your passion. They don't share your values.
You're potentially creating some disharmony, some conflict down the road.
Totally. Yeah. We've definitely found that. I mean, it's, it's probably easier to say than
if we were in a software business, but I don't think I've looked at any of my people's CVs.
I couldn't get less. I'm like, you know, what, what are you doing here? You can learn in three
months. What I'm looking at is how, how we all gel with each other. If we have, if you buy into our
vision, if you're willing to, you know, put yourself into this for the hours that you're here and help
us shift mountains, you know, in those five hours that we're in there so that you can then go home
and be with your kids and, and grow with us. Like that's what we, when we hired our first employee,
we, we, we had just secured a little contract with them at dark kitchen. So we were baking from the
canteen of the old digital marketing agency where we'd worked or we just quit the jobs,
but we needed a stepping stone because obviously we needed to all of a sudden pay ourselves,
pay for commercial premises and pay for a team. So that was a scary step. And we had a bit of a
buffer in the bank because we had hardly paid ourselves in the first four years of this.
And, but we only had about maybe three, four months to make it work, but we interviewed a few women
and we all gave them a 10 hour job because they were, they had young kids and they were like,
oh yeah, that's kind of all I can do right now. And I was like, that's fine. Cause that's all we
can afford. And then our, our motto almost was you can grow with us as the business grows,
as your children grow, as we grow as leaders, we make the right steps to, to grow this business
and allow you all to increase your hours. And that's, that's what happened. So it's a real
collective. It is almost, yeah. Yeah. And so I'm interested with, cause it does sound brave,
some of the things that you've done and the fact you're doing it differently,
how important has it been that there are the two of you, would you say? Very important. Yeah.
There have been many, many moments where if it just been me, I would have given up and Saskia as
well. I think we didn't realize how aligned we are in terms of our vision when we first started
this, because there's been so many moments where I was like, I need to have this really difficult
conversation with Saskia now, and this might be the end. And, you know, a bit like sweaty palms
type situation. And we would have the chat and she would say, I'm so glad you're saying this
because I feel exactly the same way. And let's do this and this and this to change things.
And we give each other space. So every now and then one of us is like, I'm not the leader, person,
mother I want to be. I need some space. And the other one goes, switch off as long as you need.
So we've both had episodes like that where we disappeared for two weeks and just, yeah,
you know, avoided burnout probably, or like, you know, when you are, cause we care so much about
this, we might not put the 80 hours in, but we put them in our heads. So to kind of just step away
and go remind ourselves why we're doing it. So that is just priceless to have someone who has
your back fully. Then in the summer, she took three weeks and I took three weeks. And the business just,
you know, it ran totally smoothly because there's always one of us there. So I couldn't do it without
without her. And you know, also it wouldn't be as much fun because we were really good friends and
we just love each other's company and we learned so much from each other. Yes. And to give you
yourselves that confidence boost as well of having somebody walk in side by side with you.
And there's lots of evidence that we only need one person to hold us in positive regard, to think
our idea is good, to think our opinion is sound. And it has a, almost like a tenfold effect inside
our brain. So that one person agreeing with you makes you more firm in your own opinion or your
view or your own values. So it's interesting what you're saying, you know, it's like any relationship,
I suppose, isn't it? Like over time you and Saskia have learned that, oh, you're a bit more aligned,
you're a bit more aligned, but also the fact you're doing this together is probably making
you more aligned as well. You're growing it together and you're reinforcing each other
continuously. Having that support and encouragement. So what would you say has been the biggest
obstacle you guys have had to overcome in getting to where you are now?
I think the move from the home bakery into a commercial premises, that was, I think that's what
every kitchen table business startup fears, because how are you going to make that work?
Because you need the money, but you don't have the money. So we managed that by obviously saving up,
building it up alongside our existing jobs. So I would definitely, if that's possible,
recommend that rather than going all in and fueling through your savings because money is
still coming in and it might take you a bit longer. But for us that felt the right thing to do,
because we're not, I mean, you've mentioned that we're brave, but we're probably, we're not risk
takers, I feel. Maybe we are more than we'd give ourselves credit for. But that was a big moment.
There was also a few really annoying things like a lawsuit and a sewage flood and you know, things
you just really don't want to do. And there's nothing in you that finds any fulfillment in
any of it, but you have to fill out the forms and do the phone calls. And I think as horrible as
those experiences where they made us grow as well as people, because you realize in those moments
that you are the leader of this ship and there is no one you can pass this on to. And you need to
reassure everyone else that this is fine and that we haven't done anything wrong and that we are
going to figure this out and almost like, you know, stay calm because panic's not going to help.
And so I think looking back, I'm probably quite thankful for those experiences because
I'm definitely a little bit braver. Maybe there's some scar tissue now that next time it won't
hurt as much because I'm like, I've healed once from this. So try me.
Yeah, bring it on. And that's the essence of resilience, isn't it? That we can sometimes look
at people who are highly resilient and seem to let things flow off them and think, oh, how lucky,
like they were born with some talent for stress management. But all the research tells us those
people have usually just had tough adversity in their background and they're just ahead of us in
the game. They've just got better skills, better tactics. And actually, like you said, just a
healthier outlook in terms of, well, I survived. I've survived something before and so I can
survive something again. And that in and of itself is really kind of empowering, isn't it?
So going through these obstacles, albeit ones you would never choose to do, gives us something,
doesn't it? It teaches us something. And that's what you guys have learned.
It does. And also, I think it makes you humble because ultimately, again, we are in this business
to build a better lives for our families and with our families. So our families were always fine.
You know, they were happy, they were healthy, they were safe. So it's just reminding you of
what it all means. It's like, in worst case, absolute worst case, we lose this business.
We can maybe start another one or we can see what else is out there for us. But our families,
you know, it's really not that important. And it doesn't mean that I don't care for this business,
but I'm also quite realistic of where it sits and what this is all about.
Yeah. I mean, you clearly do care very much. I think that comes over. You know, you're very
committed to it and you're very passionate about it when you're talking about it. Your eyes are lit
up, you're smiling and you're very proud of it. And as you should be. However, the kind of compass
for it is about that. What is it giving us lifestyle wise, isn't it? Which I think is where
it's different than what a lot of people would anticipate running your own business has to be.
And some of the things that might put us off running our own business thinking, well,
I can't possibly do it with young children, you know, because I wouldn't have the capacity
or the time. Whereas you're saying, well, you just design it to suit,
design it to suit and choose, choose how to do it that way.
Totally. And there is no blueprint.
And you might have to be creative. It sounds like creative in your financial management,
creative in your negotiations with the people you're working with, all of those things.
You're having to work out and untangle as you go. And you'd said something earlier about yourself
and Saskia were problem solvers. I think you'd said, tell me a little bit about that. So what
is it that you've observed about you guys that's helping you? Do you think?
I just think in my everyday life that that is my job. I'm a problem solver. So my team come to me
pretty much every day of like, Oh, this has happened. What do you think? And I have to find
a solution. And there is no, Oh, that's so annoying. Oh, man, I wish this hadn't happened.
You know, it's, it doesn't help. I just have to get on and find the best solution. And
so again, I think I wouldn't be this person if I wasn't a mom, because being a mom is also,
you're also constantly problem solving. So I think there's such we do, we're doing such a
disservice to, to mothers because they are limited with their time, the time they can give a business,
but they can give businesses so much more maybe in a short amount of time, but that resilience and
that level of being able to problem solve and being pragmatic and thinking on their feet and quick. And
I think that's something I've really just excelled at. Now I'm a mother. So when people told me you
can't do this, I felt like you have no idea what I can't do. You know, I've already run a marathon.
It's it's quarter to nine and I've, you know, like, I just think of Saskia, she didn't have a car and
she had two kids. So she dropped two kids at nursery and then cycle to work. And they told
her off when she was five minutes late. And I was like, if they knew what she'd already been through,
you know, getting two kids ready for nursery, husband worked had to leave the house at six
a.m. And I'm like, Oh, this is so unfair. Because, but I didn't want to be that personal complaints
and say, this is so unfair. I wanted to be the person who did a wrong thing and did it my way
and better and now extended to my team and go, I don't care if you're 10 minutes late because
we're going to make the time up. But next time you're 10 minutes early and you know, again,
that trust and like, this is nitpicking. They have no time energy for. Yeah. Yeah. And the
description of your leadership style is almost textbook of this kind of engaging leadership,
which is actually those line managers and leaders who show us genuine concern, care about us, who
trust us and enable us to do things for ourselves, to have the life we want, to build the skills and
careers we want, who are honest with us and consistent and values driven. That these people,
they not only improve our productivity and our motivation, so our energy levels, because we feel
kind of liberated and supported, but they massively reduce our stress. And so all of that stuff people
carry home, you know, you, so Saskia has done her trip on her bike and she's dropped her kids off
and then she's five minutes late. And I guarantee that night she went home, well, you know about
that story. So her husband would have heard about that story as would her friends and extended
family, because it would have emotionally triggered her into thinking how unfair, how unjust, if only
you knew. And I think the sad thing is for some managers, even if they knew, they'd be like,
well, get up five minutes earlier then this is your job. And you're tipping all of that on its head
and saying, actually, no, care about people, look out for people, trust people, expect positive
things of people and then see what occurs as a result of that. Yeah. And again, I think we're
not doing this because we read all the books. I think it's because of our lived experience.
Like I knew how much I had to give, but I was told I couldn't. And I was like, but that's not true.
I just can't work 37 and a half hours anymore. That's the only difference. Yeah. But you know,
how many people sit at the desk for seven and a half hours and only work five, you know?
If only we could research that, it would be very powerful. And I think one of the things we're
hearing from quite a lot of the women that we're talking to is that kind of a bit of a fire in
their belly, a bit of a don't tell me I can't, or this isn't fair. I've got more to give or well,
I want to live like this or I want to work like that. And so there's something that entrepreneurial
spirit is coming from something quite deep inside. Definitely. Definitely. I think, yeah,
what I definitely see when I'm in a room with female founders is that overcoming adversity and
thinking outside the box and creating something that hasn't been there before. Yes.
And trailblazing your own path. I think that's the thing that's coming over most. There's lots
of echoes of what other people might say about, you know, do something that you care about,
be passionate, look after your people, all those things. But I think I hear more than that in what
you and Saskia are doing. I think I hear a, we want to change the world. I'd love to change the world.
Yeah. Yeah. If you could change those bigger organizations out there, those bigger corporates
that are employing females or, you know, dads who have responsibility for raising their kids,
what would you want from them? What would you hope they would do differently tomorrow?
I would hope I would love them to change their priorities. I think they look at the bottom line,
like how much money are we making? But they're not looking at how we're making that money. How
many people are we fueling? You know, how much mental health issues are we creating in ourselves
and our team? What a burden are we on the planet? You know, like we could make so much more money if
we didn't care about how we do things. You know, we could use cheaper ingredients, plastic instead
of compostable packaging, but we choose not to. So I feel again, that we have a responsibility.
And I wish that those bigger corporations that make all that money showed just a percentage of
that responsibility. And part of me thinks they would probably be just as successful. It might
just take a bit of time, but the people would be in a better place. And I think people make a company
successful. You know, if you have an army of people who are fired up and want to do this with you,
then there's no reason why it can't work unless your idea is rubbish, but then you wouldn't even
probably launch it. So I feel there's so much in this shift of what's actually important, guys.
Is it important that we all take the 130k paycheck or is 60k maybe enough? And then we're all better
people because we're more rounded and we're not totally at the brink of burnout and in competition
with each other. So I think it's stepping out of that hamster wheel and trying to compete with each
other and measure ourselves by our paycheck or the hours we work and look at what actually matters
here. Yes. So instead of sitting there for eight hours, but actually only working for five, just
think about doing something better with the five. Yeah. Doing something productive with the five.
Yeah. And doing something better with the three, you know. Go home and be with your family or
volunteer or make your garden nice if that makes you happy. But you know, just have something else.
And because, and Saskia and I say that all the time, who's actually winning? Who's winning?
You know, because maybe some investors laughing all the way to the bank if you look at other
businesses, but the little business owners and their team and they're not winning.
And even, you know, even in the public sector environments that I've worked in where there
isn't any investors, they're making bottom line cash. You get that sense of, you know,
I'll often say to the people that I'm coaching who might be experiencing really high levels of
stress, it's affecting their home life, it's affecting their career progression, and it's
debilitating. And I will say to them, the organisation is never going to take its foot off
the accelerator. It won't. It has to do the things it has to do. That, you know, it's serving its
purpose and it will keep that pressure on so long as we reciprocate. And so there's something
incumbent on us as individuals to say, I'm going to take my foot off the gas and put in some
healthier boundaries. Or a really powerful role line managers can play saying, right, I'm going
to ring fence this and I am not going to let my people drive themselves into the ground,
you know, for the wrong reasons. And I think that's the kind of thing you're talking about.
And you see it everywhere. People on this, they describe it as like a hamster wheel. Can't get
off. I can't get off. I've got to keep going because everyone expects me to keep going.
But they're enabling it by doing that.
They're enabling it by getting on that. Yeah. So, you know, it's a chicken and egg situation,
but I think having more leaders, managers, entrepreneurs that are sort of flipping the
priorities, as you say, it is potentially an extremely powerful way of changing the world,
isn't it? And we always need someone to start it. So, you know, you guys are out there doing it.
How does it feel to be the baker that you wanted to be when you were young?
Again, how powerful because what my parents told me is not true. They said I have to get up at 3am.
I don't like I choose to get up early sometimes. But I, you know, I go to the
Biscuit at 9.30. I drop the kids at school and then I go into the Biscuit. So which bakery opens at
9.30? Ours does. You know, and the whole are you going to be bored because you just do bread rolls
all day long? No, like I'm doing a million things. I'm not even baking as a baker, you know, like
not anymore. So I think again, it's challenging what people tell you and maybe your own beliefs
as well. So it feels amazing to now do what the 14 year old me wanted to do. And she couldn't even
see yet, but she just had some sort of love for baking and baked goods. And to now do it in a way
that is enjoyable because definitely the early mornings. And that intuitiveness that's linking,
that's like a little thread through your character, isn't it? So many of the things you've done
in your own business have come from that gut feeling intuition. And that wanting to be a baker
came from a bit of a gut feeling. So intuitive thinking is obviously one of your super strengths,
isn't it? Yeah, I guess. And being stubborn enough to, and also maybe patient enough,
you know, because it took a long time and other people would have said, where is the
how, where is the movement? When, when is this happening? And Saskia and I were happy just,
just plodding along and seeing what happens. And, but we needed that time to grow as people and to
really figure out what we wanted. Because for the longest time. Yeah, and it's like step by step,
you're saying, isn't it? So you don't need to have this big strategy, this big plan, this big vision,
that actually just doing what needs to be done next, doing what needs to be done next,
is enough to get you going. And actually probably very important in getting you going on something
that's brand new and scary. It was important for us because we, that meant we could reply and
respond to the demands. Yes. Because we started as a market stall and we had cakes and biscuits and
apple pies. And it was nice, but it couldn't have got us where we're now. So then, you know,
we took all those decisions of like focus on the biscuits, personalizing them, shipping them,
like all these things made it into what was then viable because the market stands, we could never
have really made a career out of that. And so adapting as you go, not getting too anchored or
stuck in your initial idea, like listening to the market, listening to your customers, listening to
each other. All of those things are playing a big role. Testing it. Yeah, definitely. And so if you
could go back to that 14 year old, what would you say to her? What would you tell her? I would,
I think I would quite say a lot to her, but it would all be around self belief and trust and
confidence. There was, there was so many times in my life where I worried way too much about what
other people would say. I think the time where I needed to hear that the most probably wasn't as
the 14 year old, because in the end, I always did what I wanted to do. Like I studied languages and
I went traveling and I didn't worry about not finding a job so easily. So I kind of was more,
I did a bit of a full circle. So I think now I am that person again. But I think the real dip was
when I had my daughter, because I think that's such a vulnerable time in your life where you're
just so out of your depth. And I think I lost myself for a little bit in that, in that period.
And the business was, was kind of bubbling. But I think I wasn't clear yet on what I actually
wanted. And it took us a few months or years to figure that out. And it probably took a bit of a
dip in my mental health to say, this can't, I can't do this business, how I see business,
and be the mom I want to be and the wife I want to be and the sister and the friend and the daughter.
And I was like, I can't be, have this, this build this beast, this all consuming thing
that you, that so many business people describe a business to be. I'm like, I can't do that.
That makes me ill. So that's very much when...
So how did you get past that? Because presumably it would have been easy to just stop then and
say, I can't do it. It's not for me. I'll just go and get a job. So why didn't you?
I think because I saw that actually had the potential to give me all of that more so than
an office job. I think I realized at that point that it was just me and my head stopping me from
that and my beliefs that business is this way. And then, and then challenging that and going,
how about it's not? How about I build something else? How about I weave what's important to me
into that business? And I think that's what I would tell myself now that you can't do that.
I would tell myself now that you can create your own blueprint and it won't be perfect.
And it might not work for other people and other people will judge you and look at you and go,
what the hell are they doing? But as long as it works for you and then that's, and you know,
for my team, you know, when I say you would, I mean, I, you know, extend it to the whole team and,
and our clients to a certain extent, you know, it is working for everybody who engages with a
bisquery and that's all that matters to me. Yeah. And so going out and doing it your own way,
but also it sounds like from that feeling of vulnerability, of being the new mum,
that you've allowed that to direct you as well in how you run your own business.
Now you understand what that feels like. Every other mum out there potentially is feeling that
way and lots of dads as well. Yeah. Yeah. And the first three people we hired, they were
new mums pretty much, or they had just been through something where they felt very small.
And I think we, we wanted to create a place almost like a stepping stone to kind of nurture them back
up to their full potential and then go out in the world again and shine. And you know, one of,
one of those women is still with us. And the other two have gone out and done that and found
new places where that may be better suited. But I felt even with that short time we had together,
we, we managed that, you know, we gave them the confidence of like, it's cool. You only work 10
hours because that's all we need. And it's still really valuable for us here because that enables
us to step away from the baking and do all this stuff that we've not done for years because you're
here and bake for us. So, you know, even, even with a little unskilled job as baking, they made a real
difference to us. And I think we don't value things for the right reasons. Sometimes I think it's,
you know, if you generate so much money or if you then it's valuable, but it's like, no, because you
essentially you give me your time and that's your most precious good.
Yes. And the impact you then have on those people, like you say, their self-belief,
their confidence, their peace of mind, how they feel about themselves in the world.
It's making me smile because many years ago myself and my then business partner, Christine,
we were similar to Saskia and yourself running our own consultancy. And one of the things we
floated was the idea of offering career counseling or coaching to new mums, because we recognized
that feeling that you just described and we thought we could maybe help. But the more we looked into
it, the more we realized that actually that's one of those things where coaching is less powerful
than people just going out there and doing it. Because when you want to build your own self-belief
and confidence, you need to feel and see some tangible results from your efforts. So sitting
and talking about it was never going to fill that gap. So we were like, oh, we don't quite know how
we do it. And so we parked it and never, and then I've met you and I'm like, this is how you do it.
You've got these people to come in, you've given them purpose, you've given them flexibility,
you've given them work and presumably you have improved their sense of self and their self-worth.
Hopefully.
Yeah. And that's a wonderful thing to do. No matter how many biscuits you sell,
maybe that is the thing that you and Saskia will have the most powerful impact on.
Yeah. And you know what, I take that over. We made whatever.
I know. I can tell you would. Is there anything you would want to say to other women out there
who might be thinking of doing something like you have done?
I guess similar to what I would say to myself, like don't stand in your own way. If you just have
a tiny little feeling in your belly that the idea has legs or that you would really enjoy it,
even if you're not so confident about the potential success, even if you just feel,
if you're drawn to something, then I'd say absolutely do it. And it doesn't have to mean
quit your job and find an investor. Maybe you can do it two hours a week on the side
and see what happens. And just have a go, get started, start moving, start moving and just
see where it's going to take you. Yeah. And don't worry too much about if you can
find someone who's done it that way, you know, do what works for you. And I'm a huge believer that
you'll make it work if it works for you because you then do it for the right reasons.
Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your leadership journey with me.
Thanks for having me.
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