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Welcome to LeadHERship Journeys. I'm psychologist Leona Deakin and I'm fascinated by leadership,

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what it takes to become one and what it means to be a great one.

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But I'm particularly interested in female leaders because they're rarer.

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As women and girls we are often told that it is tougher to get to the top as a female,

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so what can we learn from those who've already done it?

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On this episode...

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I find myself in rooms with female founders quite a lot and they're definitely echo chambers.

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But then recently I had a very different experience. The last podcast I was on was

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with a business guru guy and he was completely dismissive of it all. He was like,

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if you ever want to draw 130k you need to make at least five millions. Like,

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you haven't listened, you know. I'm not here to draw 130k from a baking business. I'm here

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to be the person I want to be and that means working less because otherwise there's nothing

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left. Can you be a working mum and also a business success?

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Today on LeadHERship Journeys we have a sweet treat in the form of Lisa Shepherd, co-founder

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and director of The Biskery, a company that provides kindness in biscuit form.

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The fact that Lisa and her co-founder Saskia took a great idea and turned it into a successful

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business is not the only reason I wanted to speak to her today. They also have a company mission of

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bringing more female qualities into the business world. So I wanted to find out why that matters

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so much to them and how are they doing it. Welcome Lisa. Thank you. I've done a nice intro.

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Thank you so much. So The Biskery, that's been going since 2021, is that correct?

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As a business. It was a glorified hobby for a long time before then. So we launched in 2016.

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And so just tell us a little bit about what the business provides for your customers.

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So we are essentially a manufacturer of branded and personalised biscuits. 80% of what we do is

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for businesses, so corporate orders, logo biscuits for events, launches, the lot and 20% is for the

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end consumer. So we have a little web shop where people can buy biscuits for special occasions. So

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we do personalised boxes for birthdays, anniversaries, arrivals of babies, all of that.

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It's super lovely and you can even have your own face put on a biscuit.

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You can. So that's another new arm of the business where we go to exhibitions and conferences as an

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extension of the sales team of the businesses that book us to be there. But like people would have

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branded water bottles or coffee machine and we print people's faces onto the biscuit to engage

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more people to the stand and keep them there for a bit. I love it. The narcissistic side of my

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personality is just thinking I could just order loads of biscuits with my own face on it. Just

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to give it out to friends and family and just make them. I love that. And then there's a nice

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little link between you and I in that you say that the business started to take off for you really

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when Penguin Random House contacted you and Penguin are my publisher as a writer. So that's

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quite nice. So just tell us a little bit about that. So why did that change the game a bit?

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Saskia and I started baking from home after our kids had gone to bed. So it was very much a hobby

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and we sold our wares from a little market stall. But we had both a background in digital marketing

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so we knew how to be found online on Google. And about a year into us baking at home in the evening

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selling at those farmers markets at the weekends, we were approached by Penguin publishers. So they

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had found our website by Googling I guess branded biscuits. We didn't even really, I have no idea to

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this day, but they found us and asked if we could create biscuits for a book launch in Harrogate.

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And we said yes, I had no idea how to do it. Found someone who could 3D print the logo they wanted on

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the biscuit and hand deliver to Harrogate. And we were like, hold on. So there's one, there's

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businesses who need this. Two, they find us and three, they trust us with their order. So

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okay, so this is all of a sudden opening a huge door for us. And I think that same year we made

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3000 biscuits for Amazon at Christmas, Little Gingerbread Men with the iconic Amazon

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arrow as the smile. And that changed everything. So we then obviously did our Google SEO magic to

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attract more businesses and that's where we moved into.

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Yeah, and that's when it started to feel real presumably because suddenly you've got big brands.

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Big orders, big order volumes. It was a lot more, we could streamline it a lot more because obviously

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if they order 3000 biscuits, they don't want them the next week. We know we had months to do or weeks

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to make them until then it wasn't a business, but then we're like, this could actually work that

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week. There's something left at the end. And what I love about that story is when you said,

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we had no idea how to do it, but we just said, yeah, okay, we'll do it. So what was that

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conversation like between the two of you? Were you in a bit of like, did you think of saying no? Was

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that even considered or did you just go for it? We are the type of people who make things work. So

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we didn't do it on a whim going, no idea. If it doesn't work, it's just going to be rubbish.

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It was like, we're going to make it work. We didn't totally know how, but we had confidence

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that we would find a solution because that's very much the people we are like problem solvers and

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solution finders. And we had heard of Brown Net Biscuits, we just didn't really know how to do it.

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It was more the timeframe that we had and obviously the jobs and the kids and if we'd had all day to

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research this, it wouldn't have been so scary. We made it work. So there's a few things there

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that are quite intriguing that I think we'll delve into in a little bit. So you were saying the kinds

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of people you are, problem solvers, decision makers. So that will be interesting to just get

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a bit of insight into. But then also I think the power of there being two of you, I'd be

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quite interested to just find out how that's helped. But before we do that, just take us back to

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younger Lisa. So when you were maybe late teens, early twenties, what were you anticipating

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your career might look like? Did you have an idea or not? Well, funny enough, when I was a teenager,

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I once said to my family, I'd like to be a baker and they totally nipped it in the bud. They were

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like, you're going to get up at 3am. And they knew I liked my sleep. So that was like, okay.

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And, you know, like you have to work really hard and you should go to uni because you're good at

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school and all of that. So they were having none of that. My first job then wasn't a bakery,

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but it was awful. Didn't stay there very long. So then I almost had no choice but to go into

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university. But I come from a family, my dad's side, they're all doctors, my mom's side are more

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like social workers. And I didn't want to do either of those. So I was a little bit lost.

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And then I decided to just study what I fancied, what I really enjoyed. And that was languages.

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So that's what I did. And when people asked me what I wanted to do with that afterwards,

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I had no answers. Like, I don't actually know. I just want to do this because I really enjoy it.

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To also pick something that you enjoy rather than maybe what your family were directing you

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towards or influencing you towards. I think a lot of people do that, don't they?

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Where did the love of baking come from then? Why did you want to be a baker? Do you know? Can you

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remember? I think I've always had a sweet tooth, but my mom doesn't. So there was no sweets in my

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house. She never baked. She baked for my birthday and I loved that. So when I went to my granny's

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house, she always made cake. So there was always my granddad still to this day has cake at three

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o'clock. So he's the luckiest man alive. I was very much drawn to that. I guess it was the

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forbidden thing. Sugar and treats. And then for my 25th birthday, my grandma gave me a recipe folder

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with her most iconic bakes and other recipes. And that was such a gift. I loved that. And so yeah,

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I think my love stems from that. Something that I wasn't totally allowed to have or wasn't a big

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part. But then when I had it, it was just so special. Yeah. And that kind of difference

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between no sweets at home and then granny's house. Okay. So you went off to do languages,

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weren't really sure where that was going to end up. So what did you do then? What was your job

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out of university? So when I finished uni, I kind of wanted to postpone that awful looking for a job

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because it's hard for any graduate, I think, but especially for language graduates. So I said to my

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now husband, then boyfriend, that I'd like to just postpone that for a bit. And how about we go

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traveling? So we travelled the world for 15 months and I just kind of packed the I have to apply for

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a job at some point. And when I got back, I just applied, I opened monster and all the job boards

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and I just put in my languages and I looked what was coming. I applied for jobs in Germany and the

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UK because my husband's English. Then I got a job offer for working in a digital marketing agency.

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They were looking for German speakers to look after the German clients because their thinking

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was it's easier to teach a German speaker marketing than to teach a marketeer German. So they were

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desperately looking for German speakers who were happy to relocate to Leeds and I was. So that's

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where my career really started. And I got like intensive training for three months. I learned

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everything about digital marketing. It was almost like a second degree. And my language skills were

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really handy. And also what I'd studied was more than languages was like communication. And so all

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of that all of a sudden made sense and I could use it and apply it. And it was brilliant. I loved it.

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Did you? I was going to say, did you enjoy it? Because that's something that you hadn't expected

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to get into and you just kind of followed your nose. Yeah, I mean, I loved it in the sense of how

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powerful it was. You know, we were doing the thing that we were taught and all of a sudden

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our clients saw all these results and it was like, wow, like I contribute to them. Haven't been so

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much more visible online. And they kept saying to us, what you're learning here is really powerful.

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It's really powerful. And we were like, yeah. So when we then started doing it for our own business,

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we had this in the bank was like, oh yeah, let's just, but again, we didn't really,

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we just did the work. You know, we weren't like measuring it or anything, but it clearly worked

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because Penguin Publisher came after a year of us doing this. And today we're number two still for

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branded biscuits. If you Google branded biscuits, we're number two when it's little us and you know,

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there's huge companies doing this. So amazing, isn't it? So how long did you do that for then?

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Eight years in the end. Yes. So what did you learn about yourself over those eight years? Do you think?

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I think I learned that I'm a good team player, that I am possibly a bit of a people pleaser. So I was,

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it's hard to, I was always the one who wanted to make it work for the client and for my team.

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But I would speak up if I saw something that didn't work for me. I didn't like to be micromanaged

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because I had a lot of trust in my work and in my work ethic. So I remember once I had a manager who

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just constantly told me how to do things and I was like, listen, I'm getting the results for the

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client, just leave me alone. And I'm still like that. I think that's the bit I didn't enjoy working

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I think in any job, just having someone who, I don't mind someone pushing me or helping me to be

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better at what I am. But if it's, you know, for the protocol or you know, tick boxes and all of that,

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I'm a bit of a free spirit. So that, that kind of suffocated me. I was like, oh, just, just let me

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do my job. Like I've got this. Yeah. So someone constantly checking up on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you

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know, it makes sense for meeting sakes. Like, can I just do my work? And so how did it then transpire

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that you and Saskia decided? Cause she was there as well. Is that where you met her? Yeah. So she

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looked after the Dutch clients and I looked after the German. Yes. And you were telling me that you

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guys just would bake together just as friends, just after you'd had your children. Is that correct?

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Yeah. So we didn't really, we're both quite new to Leeds. We didn't have a big network of people.

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And we, we saw something in each other. We were kind of drawn to each other. We were both not big

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drinkers and the team were, you know, young professionals. So every Friday they would go

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out and after work, they would go out for drinks. And Saskia had a baby at that stage. I didn't yet.

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We were like, let's do our own little way of socializing. And that ended up being baking.

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And it was just a way for us to do something. And that makes it then easier to, to share stories.

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Doesn't it? When you do something with your hands, it feels easier than sitting there and, okay,

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tell me your life story. So we just naturally got really close and shared a lot of our story

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and what was happening in our world. Can you remember who first had the idea that you could

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do something together? So Saskia had had a little apple pie business before. And when she told me

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that I was just totally, you know, when someone tells you something, you're like, that's amazing.

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Like, I was like, how? Tell me all about it. And other people were like, oh yeah. But I was just

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so interested. So she was like, oh yeah, I did this and I registered there. And then, so I was

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like, let's do that. But it took me having a daughter to then, to then actually make it happen.

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Until then we were just messing around and like, oh no, it's not the right time.

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So what was it about having your daughter that changed? Did that change the way you

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saw work or the way you saw yourself or? Yeah, all of that.

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What did that, yeah, tell us about that. I think it made me realize how precious and

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finite life is in a way. I think it's such a big thing to become a mother that I was like,

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I don't want to waste any second of this life anymore. And not that work was wasting life,

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but it wasn't totally inspiring. You know, it was a good job. I loved it in the beginning.

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But I guess the framework of the nine to five was starting to grind on me. And I wanted to see my

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family when I wanted to see my family and I couldn't because I had to take annual leave.

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And then at Christmas they weren't sure if they could give us that leave if the whole international

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team disappeared. And maternity leave, you know, it was like, so, you know, it was a real struggle to

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find my place in the business after maternity leave. So they, for example, they wouldn't give

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me my senior title back because I wanted to work part time. And they said, I can't work client

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facing anymore. And it just felt also unfair and very disempowering. And I guess essentially

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that's what made us or made me put my energy into our own little thing, even though it wasn't

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something that was driving revenue at that state big enough. But it was just like my energy went

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there. And I guess slowly it started to, you know, fire the coals in that little thing. That's now

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the bisquery. Yeah, that's lovely. But there's something there about your values, I suppose,

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bubbling up to the surface when you'd had your daughter. It was reminding me, I remember very

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clearly sitting with my daughter when she was very young and thinking, oh my gosh, I can never go

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back to work full time. Because even when she goes to school, someone will have to drop her off and

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pick her up. And I'd worked in consultancy, it'd been long hours, weekend work. And it not crossed

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my mind until she was present and in my arms that this has just changed everything. And I think that

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is, although obviously, becoming a parent affects the dads hugely in so many ways. But I think

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there's something fundamental about women and their work that is impacted, isn't there, by that,

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having that child and then being the kind of mum you want to be? Yeah, definitely. Because

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in Germany, women get like up to three years of maternity leave and they get a good pay. And you

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know, it's not a problem to do that. And he has obviously a year 15 months and then you really

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have to be back. So I only went back two days a week because I said, I'd rather take a massive

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pay cut than missing time with my child. And that almost positioned me then, in what my priorities

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were, I was like, okay, we can make ends meet with me working two days and my husband was working

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full time. And that is feels so much more right to me than, than kind of work in that career.

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It was like, all of a sudden, it's like, that's not important anymore. But I did have that,

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especially after a year or so. It's like, there's more in me, you know, I love being a mum. And when

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you asked me what I wanted to be as a teenager, I would have probably first said a mum. That was

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always my thing. I definitely wanted a family. But then there was this, okay, this is great.

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But there's this fire in me almost that needs an outlet. And work couldn't be that anymore.

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And so we often hear that, you know, it's such incredibly hard work to start your own business,

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to be the entrepreneur, you have to be all in and be prepared to give it your everything.

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And what's quite interesting about what I'm hearing in your story is this was a bit more

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of a value based business. You wanted this to give you the freedom to have the life.

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So how did you achieve that? Have you achieved that? Or has the reality been different to what

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you hoped? I think looking at other businesses, I would say we've achieved it. So Saskia and I

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work school hours, we drop our kids at school, pick our kids up every day. We try to only work

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four days. Of course, there's some evening work and checking emails when the kids start swimming

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or whatever. But essentially, we have built that framework that we wanted. We can also both work

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from anywhere now. So in the summer, we might go to our home countries and spend time with our

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families. But then when there's a gap in the day, we sit down and work for three hours or, you know,

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whatever needs to be done. So I think it's that freedom, ultimately, that we were craving that we

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have managed to weave into the business. It's not perfect. So there's definitely days where

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I fall short. I either I'm not the mom I want to be, I'm not the business owner I want to be. And

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I am also starting to realize that's just life. You know, we aren't perfect. And there's also no

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balance. I think what balance means is some days it swings that way. And the other day, it swings

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the other but to be level is probably, you know, happens maybe one day a year that actually you're

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winning. So I think balance is more like looking over a longer period of time. It hasn't felt

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forced for us. And I think that is because we didn't have a business plan. And we didn't have

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the big okay revenue goals. And how does it look when it's finished? It was just, we need to build

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something that works better for us and our families. That was our main focus and everything else came

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after. So to this day, that is how we hold ourselves accountable. We're like, is this

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working for us? And not from, of course, it needs to work. Is any money? Are we making any profit?

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Is there anything? Is there a bottom line? But it's also how are we feeling? Are we the moms we want

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to be? Because we knew we couldn't work 80 hour weeks and be the moms we want to be. So we're very

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much challenging the notion that business owners, you know, it's a 24 seven job and you can never

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switch off and our kids force us to switch off, you know, they deserve us to step away from it and go,

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you know, shut down the laptop and go this has to wait right now because they have something important

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to tell me. I mean, this, it sounds so lovely. It sounds, I mean, excuse the pun here, but you baked

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in, you baked in the idea of this being a family orientated occupation right from the start.

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So whereas people, as you say, might set financial goals or growth goals or, you know, all those

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strategic visionary goals, your goal has been to make it work for the breadth of your life,

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for that bigger picture. And that's something that you and Saskia keep revisiting from the

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sounds of it and keep checking yourselves against. We do because, you know, a working mom isn't a

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working mom because it totally depends on your circumstances, on the ages of your children, on

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what your children demand of you. So most of our team members are moms as well, but not one story

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is identical to the next. You know, one team member is a single mom, so her challenges are

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completely different to the one who has one son, to the one who has two little girls. So, you know,

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it's completely, it's completely different. So it's ever changing. And that's, I think, the nature

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of business and life in general. But for us, it's very important to keep checking out like, okay,

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is this still working? Is this still meeting why we set out to do this?

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And have you faced resistance to that, just in terms of the practicalities of it, or even the

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business world at large, that you're coming at it from a different perspective as that provided?

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Yeah, it's challenging. I think above anything, it's a massive logistical challenge to align

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everybody. Just think of school holidays, you know, how we, so we're always like half the staff are

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there over summer, but then summer is naturally a quiet time, because there's not many events,

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and lots of people are off. So they're not planning big events. So again, it works somehow,

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we've made it work. And we've got a little database of seasonal workers who can help us out.

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So again, I guess if something's important enough for you, you make it work somehow.

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The other resistance, I find myself in rooms with female founders quite a lot, and they're

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definitely echo chambers. So there's people nodding and going, oh, it's amazing. But then recently,

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I had a very different experience. The last podcast I was on was with a business guru guy,

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and he basically analyzed our business and then told us what he thought afterwards. And he was

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completely dismissive of it all. He was like, you're never going to make this work. There's just

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never going to be a bottom line. I was like, hold on, but we are profitable. Like, yeah, but if you

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ever want to draw 130k, you need to make at least five million. I was like, who says I want to draw

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130k? I was like, you haven't listened. I'm not here to draw 130k from my baking business. I'm

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here to be the person I want to be. And that means working less, because otherwise there's

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nothing left. I can't spread myself so thinly. It's not sustainable for me. And I don't think

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it's sustainable for anyone to work 80 hour weeks and have a family. Yeah. And it's seen

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work as something that fits into that jigsaw of life as one part of it, rather than the kind of

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fuel. I think there's a lot of theories and approaches to business, which is about the

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financial success. And that's all that you can measure it. Absolutely. But that whole idea of

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working to serve some other purpose, obviously we all need to eat and live and we want a certain

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standard of life. So we all need the money for that. But I think what I'm hearing from you is

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this is about more than that. It's about that kind of feeding your soul a little bit, doing the things

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that you love with people you care about, so that you can have the family life that you want. And

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all of those things being linked, rather than the job being over there. And then you come back and

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try and fit the rest of your life around whatever the demands of the job. Definitely. And then also

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weaving that into what we're actually selling. So I think our biscuits carry that vibe all along.

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Yes. So let's talk about this. Because this is lovely. So it isn't just that you started a

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business that fit in with the school runs and allowed you and Saskia to be great mums and to

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help other women have that flexibility. That's all wonderful. But the actual nature of the business

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itself. So this whole idea of female qualities and kindness in biscuit form. Tell me about that.

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What's the inspiration behind all of that? So I think we didn't realize the impact our biscuits

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had until the pandemic. So when we went into lockdown, Saskia and I looked at each other and

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we said, okay, there's no corporate events. So there's no money coming in. We have nothing to do

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aside from obviously homeschool the kids and do the other job because we still had the other jobs

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at that point. But we wanted to do something to fill the gap we would normally use for baking.

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So we said, well, we're not key workers. We can't volunteer because we have the kids and we don't

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want to put ourselves out there and risk anything. But we can bake and spread some hope and kindness.

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So we decided to launch something that we called Kindness Biscuits. They just had encouraging

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messages on them. So stay safe, missing you, hugs and kisses, thinking of you. And people could

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nominate someone they wanted us to send a biscuit to. Because we didn't have an e-commerce website

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at that stage. It was very much people sending us emails saying, I want this and we would process

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it and send them out for them. So we then said, okay, just email us people and we send free biscuits

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out. And then we had a very kind donor who would pay for the postage. So we only had to cover the

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ingredients, which isn't that expensive, and our time. And then I think Leeds List got wind of it

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in a Facebook group, a local Leeds Facebook group, and then New Yorkshire Post. And before we knew

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it, we got an email per minute asking for those free biscuits. And we were like, we can't sustain

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this anymore. We have, you know, there's not enough flour. Of course, because actually, we were

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supplier flour. Yeah, I remember that. So yeah, we had to limit it. But the feedback we got was just

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so touching. So there were people saying, I sent your biscuit to my sister who works in a COVID

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ward and it made her cry. And she felt so close to us. We have not been able to see her for eight

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weeks. We're so worried about, you know, just those human stories. And we were like, wow, this is

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powerful. You know, this is just the biscuit we thought, but it wasn't just a biscuit. So when the

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lockdowns were lifted, and the world started to open again, we decided to keep it going somehow,

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because we said, this has done something to us. You know, this has shown us the power of

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how those biscuits can bring people together. So we decided to launch Gratitudes Day, which still

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happens now. So every Tuesday, we have a limited amount of free thank you biscuits. So you can go

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to the website. It's not per email, via email anymore. It's a bit more professional. So you

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can check out with using the discount code that's displayed on the page. So it's all really visible,

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and send a thank you biscuit to someone and just thank them for whatever it is, including a gift

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note. And there's no strings attached. There's no hidden costs. The postage, everything's free.

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And just because we really believe in that, paying it forward, because again, we love those human

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stories. But from a business perspective, what those kindness biscuits did for us is it established

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us as a brand that wants to do good. And people wanted to support us because of that. So when we

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said we have to limit the free biscuits, people said, Oh, can I buy biscuits? Well, like, well,

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yeah, the shop is open. So people went to the web shop. And at a time where the corporate orders

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were dead, we had a 400% increase of our B2C orders. And that's really what gave us the

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confidence to quit our jobs and say, you know what, if we can thrive in a pandemic when other

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people, you know, so many businesses were struggling, then maybe we can just do this.

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And then we did. So without these kindness biscuits, we probably wouldn't be in our.

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It's lovely, isn't it? And it's, it's making me think of Simon Sinek. Have you seen him talk

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about the power of why and that whole idea of we buy because we have some emotional connection to

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a brand, it makes us feel a certain way. So like you say, to present yourselves as,

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as an ethical business, as a business that wants to spread kindness. And that leads us onto

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the feminine elements, because, you know, in a business sense, you know, being kind would be

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seen as a more feminine stereotypically, obviously there's a plethora of kind men in the world,

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but it is seen as something that's maybe a little bit softer. And so you're saying that's actually

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giving you a bit of an edge. Yes, absolutely. And I think when we entered the business world,

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and what always has kind of put me off being part of the world of business was the notion that you

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have to, you know, get your elbows out and make space for yourself and push everybody down and,

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and away. And we were like, there has to be another way, there's enough to go around,

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look at how many chocolate brands are out there. Why can't we celebrate our competitors and kind

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of establish us for something that we are known for that isn't copying what someone else does.

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And, and not be afraid to also be a player in this field. And you know, how about a standout for

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how good we are rather than for bad mouthing the others. So again, I couldn't find any inspiration

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from many businessmen or women, because I found when women were successful in business,

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they just acted like men. And I thought that why don't we embrace what, what we stand for?

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And again, I'm generalizing, I'm in my masculine energy a lot of the time. But then I have to

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remind myself sometimes, you know, when I'm in the doing stuff mode, that like, hold on, just

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breathe, step back a moment. This is not how we do things here. You know, we want to really like

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embrace that community and people over profit, even though we are profitable, it is important

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to us. And you know, we're not a CIC and we're not a charity, we kind of want to carve out this niche

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for, for women in business and say, Hey, you can have financial success and build something that

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works, but you don't have to change who you are and what's important to you.

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And so how have you done that? So how have you got in there and run the business without

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putting your elbows out and, you know, pushing yourself in and getting into your masculine

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energy? How have you done it differently? I think one is with the kindness biscuits.

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That was an example that other people would have said, Oh, it's exclusive now we're charging even

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more because flowers more expensive, you know, at a time where on paper, it made no sense to give

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things away for free because we had less money because there were no orders and we had less time

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in a sense. So we were like, but that's what felt right. So it's very intuitive. So it's very hard

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to give you like, we did this and that I think a lot of the time we just listen to what God told

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us and, and what we want to do. And a lot of the times it, it happened with our team members as

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well. The people came to us and were like, they're amazing. We want to work with them. One lady said,

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I have another job offer and they're paying me this. So I kind of have to go with that because

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that's the money I need to make this work. And we were like, okay, let's just crunch all the

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numbers. And, and we were like, again, this makes no business sense because we're paying for it.

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More than we can afford, but we know she's so right for the business and she can probably help

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us get to where we need to be. So let's do this because it feels right. And then we had another

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member of staff who came from Ukraine and she said, I would love, love to quit my Ukrainian job

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that I'm doing remotely to kind of find my feet here in the UK, but I have to work full time to

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make ends meet. And we're like, again, it made no business sense to do that, but it felt right.

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Cause we knew she was an amazing asset to the business and she could help us out in so many

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areas with her wealth of knowledge. So there's just so many decisions that we, well, we switched

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off the head a little bit and went with the gut and put a lot of trust into things.

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And is that worked out for you? Has that been a good, cause some people would say, well, that's

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a bit of a gamble.

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Maybe. I mean, I say we switched the head off. We still, you know, we have our accountancy,

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we have our accountant, we have a software, so we look at our numbers. So we're not like, oh yeah,

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I'd love to do that. And you know, the castle's in the sky. So we, we have that masculine energy

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side of, you know, the spreadsheets and all of that. But I think it's easy to get hung up in that

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and just look at the figures. Cause sometimes stuff happens that you can't even explain, you

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know, you speak to someone, you have a nice conversation and three months later, they,

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someone comes to you and places a huge order and you're like, oh, I'm going to do this.

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And it's off the back of that nice conversation you had. So I think you can't always measure

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things and go, if I do this, if I do AB will happen. It's not as easy as that.

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No, it's lovely. And what you're embodying, I suppose, is that whole leadership approach,

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which says, if you look after the people, the people will look after the work.

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And in so many corporate environments and public sector organizations, the opposite is done a

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little bit like you was saying about having the manager in that digital marketing environment,

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who was checking up on the work and you felt, well, you're just micromanaging me, the person,

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trust me, the person, and I will do the work. But managers sometimes don't feel that they can,

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they're too anxious or nervous to leave the work to you and just look after you.

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And what you're doing is you're saying, well, we're fundamentally going to look after the

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people, even if it costs us on paper, we'll look after you because we think at some point in the

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future, you will realize that investment. Because I'm thinking you is going to contribute to that

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where we are. Yeah. So we saw that as an investment and it's always. That's brave.

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Paid off. Yeah, maybe, maybe. But we also felt we had no other choice because losing them wasn't

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an option. You know, they would have moved on and gone elsewhere and would have left a huge gap for

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opportunity. So it's, it's always paid off for us. Which again, kind of counters that whole philosophy

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of, well, nobody's indispensable, which is quite a macho kind of business philosophy, isn't it?

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So you're, and you're doing the opposite. You're like, oh no, they are indispensable. This person,

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we want to keep them as an individual and they feel like a fit. And I think what's interesting,

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just going back to something you were saying earlier about the digital marketing company saying

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we want a German speaker because we can teach you the skills of marketing, which is easier.

372
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:25,520
And I think often businesses miss that whole thing of if someone has your values or if someone has

373
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,800
the right kind of motivation or the right kind of passion for what you're doing, well, you can teach

374
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,920
them the technical bits of that, but you can't do that the other way around. They might be the most

375
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,120
skillful, technical individual, but they don't share your passion. They don't share your values.

376
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,320
You're potentially creating some disharmony, some conflict down the road.

377
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,080
Totally. Yeah. We've definitely found that. I mean, it's, it's probably easier to say than

378
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,600
if we were in a software business, but I don't think I've looked at any of my people's CVs.

379
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,840
I couldn't get less. I'm like, you know, what, what are you doing here? You can learn in three

380
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:06,160
months. What I'm looking at is how, how we all gel with each other. If we have, if you buy into our

381
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:13,440
vision, if you're willing to, you know, put yourself into this for the hours that you're here and help

382
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,720
us shift mountains, you know, in those five hours that we're in there so that you can then go home

383
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:24,000
and be with your kids and, and grow with us. Like that's what we, when we hired our first employee,

384
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:33,920
we, we, we had just secured a little contract with them at dark kitchen. So we were baking from the

385
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,480
canteen of the old digital marketing agency where we'd worked or we just quit the jobs,

386
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,800
but we needed a stepping stone because obviously we needed to all of a sudden pay ourselves,

387
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,800
pay for commercial premises and pay for a team. So that was a scary step. And we had a bit of a

388
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,240
buffer in the bank because we had hardly paid ourselves in the first four years of this.

389
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:59,120
And, but we only had about maybe three, four months to make it work, but we interviewed a few women

390
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,000
and we all gave them a 10 hour job because they were, they had young kids and they were like,

391
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,680
oh yeah, that's kind of all I can do right now. And I was like, that's fine. Cause that's all we

392
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:13,680
can afford. And then our, our motto almost was you can grow with us as the business grows,

393
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,840
as your children grow, as we grow as leaders, we make the right steps to, to grow this business

394
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,000
and allow you all to increase your hours. And that's, that's what happened. So it's a real

395
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:30,640
collective. It is almost, yeah. Yeah. And so I'm interested with, cause it does sound brave,

396
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,360
some of the things that you've done and the fact you're doing it differently,

397
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:41,520
how important has it been that there are the two of you, would you say? Very important. Yeah.

398
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:48,160
There have been many, many moments where if it just been me, I would have given up and Saskia as

399
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:55,280
well. I think we didn't realize how aligned we are in terms of our vision when we first started

400
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,720
this, because there's been so many moments where I was like, I need to have this really difficult

401
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:05,680
conversation with Saskia now, and this might be the end. And, you know, a bit like sweaty palms

402
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:10,160
type situation. And we would have the chat and she would say, I'm so glad you're saying this

403
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,640
because I feel exactly the same way. And let's do this and this and this to change things.

404
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:23,200
And we give each other space. So every now and then one of us is like, I'm not the leader, person,

405
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:30,080
mother I want to be. I need some space. And the other one goes, switch off as long as you need.

406
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:36,240
So we've both had episodes like that where we disappeared for two weeks and just, yeah,

407
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,320
you know, avoided burnout probably, or like, you know, when you are, cause we care so much about

408
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:48,640
this, we might not put the 80 hours in, but we put them in our heads. So to kind of just step away

409
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:55,440
and go remind ourselves why we're doing it. So that is just priceless to have someone who has

410
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,840
your back fully. Then in the summer, she took three weeks and I took three weeks. And the business just,

411
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:09,440
you know, it ran totally smoothly because there's always one of us there. So I couldn't do it without

412
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,960
without her. And you know, also it wouldn't be as much fun because we were really good friends and

413
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:21,680
we just love each other's company and we learned so much from each other. Yes. And to give you

414
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:28,320
yourselves that confidence boost as well of having somebody walk in side by side with you.

415
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:37,120
And there's lots of evidence that we only need one person to hold us in positive regard, to think

416
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:44,320
our idea is good, to think our opinion is sound. And it has a, almost like a tenfold effect inside

417
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:53,520
our brain. So that one person agreeing with you makes you more firm in your own opinion or your

418
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,240
view or your own values. So it's interesting what you're saying, you know, it's like any relationship,

419
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:02,000
I suppose, isn't it? Like over time you and Saskia have learned that, oh, you're a bit more aligned,

420
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,480
you're a bit more aligned, but also the fact you're doing this together is probably making

421
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,440
you more aligned as well. You're growing it together and you're reinforcing each other

422
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:20,400
continuously. Having that support and encouragement. So what would you say has been the biggest

423
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,800
obstacle you guys have had to overcome in getting to where you are now?

424
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:33,840
I think the move from the home bakery into a commercial premises, that was, I think that's what

425
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:40,480
every kitchen table business startup fears, because how are you going to make that work?

426
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:48,320
Because you need the money, but you don't have the money. So we managed that by obviously saving up,

427
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,840
building it up alongside our existing jobs. So I would definitely, if that's possible,

428
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,320
recommend that rather than going all in and fueling through your savings because money is

429
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,960
still coming in and it might take you a bit longer. But for us that felt the right thing to do,

430
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,440
because we're not, I mean, you've mentioned that we're brave, but we're probably, we're not risk

431
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,440
takers, I feel. Maybe we are more than we'd give ourselves credit for. But that was a big moment.

432
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:23,840
There was also a few really annoying things like a lawsuit and a sewage flood and you know, things

433
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:30,000
you just really don't want to do. And there's nothing in you that finds any fulfillment in

434
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:38,320
any of it, but you have to fill out the forms and do the phone calls. And I think as horrible as

435
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:44,160
those experiences where they made us grow as well as people, because you realize in those moments

436
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:50,880
that you are the leader of this ship and there is no one you can pass this on to. And you need to

437
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,480
reassure everyone else that this is fine and that we haven't done anything wrong and that we are

438
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,880
going to figure this out and almost like, you know, stay calm because panic's not going to help.

439
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:08,720
And so I think looking back, I'm probably quite thankful for those experiences because

440
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,240
I'm definitely a little bit braver. Maybe there's some scar tissue now that next time it won't

441
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,200
hurt as much because I'm like, I've healed once from this. So try me.

442
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:25,360
Yeah, bring it on. And that's the essence of resilience, isn't it? That we can sometimes look

443
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:31,680
at people who are highly resilient and seem to let things flow off them and think, oh, how lucky,

444
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:39,120
like they were born with some talent for stress management. But all the research tells us those

445
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:44,640
people have usually just had tough adversity in their background and they're just ahead of us in

446
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:50,640
the game. They've just got better skills, better tactics. And actually, like you said, just a

447
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:57,040
healthier outlook in terms of, well, I survived. I've survived something before and so I can

448
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:04,880
survive something again. And that in and of itself is really kind of empowering, isn't it?

449
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:10,800
So going through these obstacles, albeit ones you would never choose to do, gives us something,

450
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,640
doesn't it? It teaches us something. And that's what you guys have learned.

451
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:21,040
It does. And also, I think it makes you humble because ultimately, again, we are in this business

452
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:27,840
to build a better lives for our families and with our families. So our families were always fine.

453
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,000
You know, they were happy, they were healthy, they were safe. So it's just reminding you of

454
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:37,360
what it all means. It's like, in worst case, absolute worst case, we lose this business.

455
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:43,760
We can maybe start another one or we can see what else is out there for us. But our families,

456
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,480
you know, it's really not that important. And it doesn't mean that I don't care for this business,

457
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:53,120
but I'm also quite realistic of where it sits and what this is all about.

458
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,560
Yeah. I mean, you clearly do care very much. I think that comes over. You know, you're very

459
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,960
committed to it and you're very passionate about it when you're talking about it. Your eyes are lit

460
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:09,520
up, you're smiling and you're very proud of it. And as you should be. However, the kind of compass

461
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:16,160
for it is about that. What is it giving us lifestyle wise, isn't it? Which I think is where

462
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:21,120
it's different than what a lot of people would anticipate running your own business has to be.

463
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,280
And some of the things that might put us off running our own business thinking, well,

464
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,360
I can't possibly do it with young children, you know, because I wouldn't have the capacity

465
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,480
or the time. Whereas you're saying, well, you just design it to suit,

466
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,320
design it to suit and choose, choose how to do it that way.

467
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,240
Totally. And there is no blueprint.

468
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,840
And you might have to be creative. It sounds like creative in your financial management,

469
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,840
creative in your negotiations with the people you're working with, all of those things.

470
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,120
You're having to work out and untangle as you go. And you'd said something earlier about yourself

471
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,760
and Saskia were problem solvers. I think you'd said, tell me a little bit about that. So what

472
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,080
is it that you've observed about you guys that's helping you? Do you think?

473
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:07,520
I just think in my everyday life that that is my job. I'm a problem solver. So my team come to me

474
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:13,760
pretty much every day of like, Oh, this has happened. What do you think? And I have to find

475
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,640
a solution. And there is no, Oh, that's so annoying. Oh, man, I wish this hadn't happened.

476
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,800
You know, it's, it doesn't help. I just have to get on and find the best solution. And

477
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:29,280
so again, I think I wouldn't be this person if I wasn't a mom, because being a mom is also,

478
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:34,400
you're also constantly problem solving. So I think there's such we do, we're doing such a

479
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:41,200
disservice to, to mothers because they are limited with their time, the time they can give a business,

480
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:47,520
but they can give businesses so much more maybe in a short amount of time, but that resilience and

481
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:54,240
that level of being able to problem solve and being pragmatic and thinking on their feet and quick. And

482
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:02,720
I think that's something I've really just excelled at. Now I'm a mother. So when people told me you

483
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:07,520
can't do this, I felt like you have no idea what I can't do. You know, I've already run a marathon.

484
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:12,560
It's it's quarter to nine and I've, you know, like, I just think of Saskia, she didn't have a car and

485
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,760
she had two kids. So she dropped two kids at nursery and then cycle to work. And they told

486
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,480
her off when she was five minutes late. And I was like, if they knew what she'd already been through,

487
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,480
you know, getting two kids ready for nursery, husband worked had to leave the house at six

488
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:31,840
a.m. And I'm like, Oh, this is so unfair. Because, but I didn't want to be that personal complaints

489
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,240
and say, this is so unfair. I wanted to be the person who did a wrong thing and did it my way

490
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:40,720
and better and now extended to my team and go, I don't care if you're 10 minutes late because

491
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:44,320
we're going to make the time up. But next time you're 10 minutes early and you know, again,

492
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:51,200
that trust and like, this is nitpicking. They have no time energy for. Yeah. Yeah. And the

493
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:58,320
description of your leadership style is almost textbook of this kind of engaging leadership,

494
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:06,960
which is actually those line managers and leaders who show us genuine concern, care about us, who

495
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:12,320
trust us and enable us to do things for ourselves, to have the life we want, to build the skills and

496
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:18,240
careers we want, who are honest with us and consistent and values driven. That these people,

497
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,840
they not only improve our productivity and our motivation, so our energy levels, because we feel

498
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:30,480
kind of liberated and supported, but they massively reduce our stress. And so all of that stuff people

499
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,200
carry home, you know, you, so Saskia has done her trip on her bike and she's dropped her kids off

500
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,800
and then she's five minutes late. And I guarantee that night she went home, well, you know about

501
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,280
that story. So her husband would have heard about that story as would her friends and extended

502
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,200
family, because it would have emotionally triggered her into thinking how unfair, how unjust, if only

503
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:54,240
you knew. And I think the sad thing is for some managers, even if they knew, they'd be like,

504
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:59,600
well, get up five minutes earlier then this is your job. And you're tipping all of that on its head

505
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:07,040
and saying, actually, no, care about people, look out for people, trust people, expect positive

506
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:13,120
things of people and then see what occurs as a result of that. Yeah. And again, I think we're

507
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,600
not doing this because we read all the books. I think it's because of our lived experience.

508
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:24,240
Like I knew how much I had to give, but I was told I couldn't. And I was like, but that's not true.

509
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:30,720
I just can't work 37 and a half hours anymore. That's the only difference. Yeah. But you know,

510
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:34,720
how many people sit at the desk for seven and a half hours and only work five, you know?

511
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,880
If only we could research that, it would be very powerful. And I think one of the things we're

512
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,960
hearing from quite a lot of the women that we're talking to is that kind of a bit of a fire in

513
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:51,040
their belly, a bit of a don't tell me I can't, or this isn't fair. I've got more to give or well,

514
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:56,080
I want to live like this or I want to work like that. And so there's something that entrepreneurial

515
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:02,000
spirit is coming from something quite deep inside. Definitely. Definitely. I think, yeah,

516
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:08,240
what I definitely see when I'm in a room with female founders is that overcoming adversity and

517
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:13,120
thinking outside the box and creating something that hasn't been there before. Yes.

518
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:18,800
And trailblazing your own path. I think that's the thing that's coming over most. There's lots

519
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,520
of echoes of what other people might say about, you know, do something that you care about,

520
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:28,720
be passionate, look after your people, all those things. But I think I hear more than that in what

521
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:34,080
you and Saskia are doing. I think I hear a, we want to change the world. I'd love to change the world.

522
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,360
Yeah. Yeah. If you could change those bigger organizations out there, those bigger corporates

523
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:45,760
that are employing females or, you know, dads who have responsibility for raising their kids,

524
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,440
what would you want from them? What would you hope they would do differently tomorrow?

525
00:49:52,960 --> 00:50:01,680
I would hope I would love them to change their priorities. I think they look at the bottom line,

526
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:06,480
like how much money are we making? But they're not looking at how we're making that money. How

527
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:12,000
many people are we fueling? You know, how much mental health issues are we creating in ourselves

528
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:19,440
and our team? What a burden are we on the planet? You know, like we could make so much more money if

529
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:24,160
we didn't care about how we do things. You know, we could use cheaper ingredients, plastic instead

530
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:31,280
of compostable packaging, but we choose not to. So I feel again, that we have a responsibility.

531
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:37,120
And I wish that those bigger corporations that make all that money showed just a percentage of

532
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,160
that responsibility. And part of me thinks they would probably be just as successful. It might

533
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:48,800
just take a bit of time, but the people would be in a better place. And I think people make a company

534
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:54,880
successful. You know, if you have an army of people who are fired up and want to do this with you,

535
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,640
then there's no reason why it can't work unless your idea is rubbish, but then you wouldn't even

536
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:06,720
probably launch it. So I feel there's so much in this shift of what's actually important, guys.

537
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:14,640
Is it important that we all take the 130k paycheck or is 60k maybe enough? And then we're all better

538
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:21,040
people because we're more rounded and we're not totally at the brink of burnout and in competition

539
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:27,280
with each other. So I think it's stepping out of that hamster wheel and trying to compete with each

540
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:34,640
other and measure ourselves by our paycheck or the hours we work and look at what actually matters

541
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:40,560
here. Yes. So instead of sitting there for eight hours, but actually only working for five, just

542
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,280
think about doing something better with the five. Yeah. Doing something productive with the five.

543
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:50,240
Yeah. And doing something better with the three, you know. Go home and be with your family or

544
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:58,560
volunteer or make your garden nice if that makes you happy. But you know, just have something else.

545
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,800
And because, and Saskia and I say that all the time, who's actually winning? Who's winning?

546
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,400
You know, because maybe some investors laughing all the way to the bank if you look at other

547
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,120
businesses, but the little business owners and their team and they're not winning.

548
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:19,360
And even, you know, even in the public sector environments that I've worked in where there

549
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,400
isn't any investors, they're making bottom line cash. You get that sense of, you know,

550
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,960
I'll often say to the people that I'm coaching who might be experiencing really high levels of

551
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,760
stress, it's affecting their home life, it's affecting their career progression, and it's

552
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:39,360
debilitating. And I will say to them, the organisation is never going to take its foot off

553
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:45,600
the accelerator. It won't. It has to do the things it has to do. That, you know, it's serving its

554
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:51,520
purpose and it will keep that pressure on so long as we reciprocate. And so there's something

555
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:56,880
incumbent on us as individuals to say, I'm going to take my foot off the gas and put in some

556
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:03,200
healthier boundaries. Or a really powerful role line managers can play saying, right, I'm going

557
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:08,000
to ring fence this and I am not going to let my people drive themselves into the ground,

558
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,720
you know, for the wrong reasons. And I think that's the kind of thing you're talking about.

559
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:17,920
And you see it everywhere. People on this, they describe it as like a hamster wheel. Can't get

560
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,800
off. I can't get off. I've got to keep going because everyone expects me to keep going.

561
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,240
But they're enabling it by doing that.

562
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:26,160
They're enabling it by getting on that. Yeah. So, you know, it's a chicken and egg situation,

563
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:32,560
but I think having more leaders, managers, entrepreneurs that are sort of flipping the

564
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:38,560
priorities, as you say, it is potentially an extremely powerful way of changing the world,

565
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,760
isn't it? And we always need someone to start it. So, you know, you guys are out there doing it.

566
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:50,480
How does it feel to be the baker that you wanted to be when you were young?

567
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:57,600
Again, how powerful because what my parents told me is not true. They said I have to get up at 3am.

568
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:03,840
I don't like I choose to get up early sometimes. But I, you know, I go to the

569
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:08,880
Biscuit at 9.30. I drop the kids at school and then I go into the Biscuit. So which bakery opens at

570
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:17,440
9.30? Ours does. You know, and the whole are you going to be bored because you just do bread rolls

571
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:23,040
all day long? No, like I'm doing a million things. I'm not even baking as a baker, you know, like

572
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:29,360
not anymore. So I think again, it's challenging what people tell you and maybe your own beliefs

573
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:37,040
as well. So it feels amazing to now do what the 14 year old me wanted to do. And she couldn't even

574
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:45,440
see yet, but she just had some sort of love for baking and baked goods. And to now do it in a way

575
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:51,040
that is enjoyable because definitely the early mornings. And that intuitiveness that's linking,

576
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:55,280
that's like a little thread through your character, isn't it? So many of the things you've done

577
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,920
in your own business have come from that gut feeling intuition. And that wanting to be a baker

578
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:05,360
came from a bit of a gut feeling. So intuitive thinking is obviously one of your super strengths,

579
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:11,680
isn't it? Yeah, I guess. And being stubborn enough to, and also maybe patient enough,

580
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:16,240
you know, because it took a long time and other people would have said, where is the

581
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,520
how, where is the movement? When, when is this happening? And Saskia and I were happy just,

582
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:28,080
just plodding along and seeing what happens. And, but we needed that time to grow as people and to

583
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,520
really figure out what we wanted. Because for the longest time. Yeah, and it's like step by step,

584
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:36,560
you're saying, isn't it? So you don't need to have this big strategy, this big plan, this big vision,

585
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,640
that actually just doing what needs to be done next, doing what needs to be done next,

586
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:46,480
is enough to get you going. And actually probably very important in getting you going on something

587
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:52,320
that's brand new and scary. It was important for us because we, that meant we could reply and

588
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:58,080
respond to the demands. Yes. Because we started as a market stall and we had cakes and biscuits and

589
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:03,600
apple pies. And it was nice, but it couldn't have got us where we're now. So then, you know,

590
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,920
we took all those decisions of like focus on the biscuits, personalizing them, shipping them,

591
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:13,360
like all these things made it into what was then viable because the market stands, we could never

592
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:20,560
have really made a career out of that. And so adapting as you go, not getting too anchored or

593
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:25,920
stuck in your initial idea, like listening to the market, listening to your customers, listening to

594
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,280
each other. All of those things are playing a big role. Testing it. Yeah, definitely. And so if you

595
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:38,320
could go back to that 14 year old, what would you say to her? What would you tell her? I would,

596
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:44,560
I think I would quite say a lot to her, but it would all be around self belief and trust and

597
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:52,560
confidence. There was, there was so many times in my life where I worried way too much about what

598
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:59,600
other people would say. I think the time where I needed to hear that the most probably wasn't as

599
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,680
the 14 year old, because in the end, I always did what I wanted to do. Like I studied languages and

600
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:09,520
I went traveling and I didn't worry about not finding a job so easily. So I kind of was more,

601
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:15,200
I did a bit of a full circle. So I think now I am that person again. But I think the real dip was

602
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,160
when I had my daughter, because I think that's such a vulnerable time in your life where you're

603
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:26,240
just so out of your depth. And I think I lost myself for a little bit in that, in that period.

604
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:36,320
And the business was, was kind of bubbling. But I think I wasn't clear yet on what I actually

605
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,960
wanted. And it took us a few months or years to figure that out. And it probably took a bit of a

606
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:48,080
dip in my mental health to say, this can't, I can't do this business, how I see business,

607
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:52,880
and be the mom I want to be and the wife I want to be and the sister and the friend and the daughter.

608
00:57:52,880 --> 00:58:00,320
And I was like, I can't be, have this, this build this beast, this all consuming thing

609
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:05,120
that you, that so many business people describe a business to be. I'm like, I can't do that.

610
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,560
That makes me ill. So that's very much when...

611
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,800
So how did you get past that? Because presumably it would have been easy to just stop then and

612
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:18,640
say, I can't do it. It's not for me. I'll just go and get a job. So why didn't you?

613
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:23,520
I think because I saw that actually had the potential to give me all of that more so than

614
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:29,360
an office job. I think I realized at that point that it was just me and my head stopping me from

615
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:35,600
that and my beliefs that business is this way. And then, and then challenging that and going,

616
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,080
how about it's not? How about I build something else? How about I weave what's important to me

617
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:46,560
into that business? And I think that's what I would tell myself now that you can't do that.

618
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:51,920
I would tell myself now that you can create your own blueprint and it won't be perfect.

619
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,040
And it might not work for other people and other people will judge you and look at you and go,

620
00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:00,240
what the hell are they doing? But as long as it works for you and then that's, and you know,

621
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,480
for my team, you know, when I say you would, I mean, I, you know, extend it to the whole team and,

622
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:09,120
and our clients to a certain extent, you know, it is working for everybody who engages with a

623
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:15,520
bisquery and that's all that matters to me. Yeah. And so going out and doing it your own way,

624
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:21,680
but also it sounds like from that feeling of vulnerability, of being the new mum,

625
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,000
that you've allowed that to direct you as well in how you run your own business.

626
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:31,760
Now you understand what that feels like. Every other mum out there potentially is feeling that

627
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:37,280
way and lots of dads as well. Yeah. Yeah. And the first three people we hired, they were

628
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,920
new mums pretty much, or they had just been through something where they felt very small.

629
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:48,880
And I think we, we wanted to create a place almost like a stepping stone to kind of nurture them back

630
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:55,360
up to their full potential and then go out in the world again and shine. And you know, one of,

631
00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:00,400
one of those women is still with us. And the other two have gone out and done that and found

632
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:06,080
new places where that may be better suited. But I felt even with that short time we had together,

633
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,040
we, we managed that, you know, we gave them the confidence of like, it's cool. You only work 10

634
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:16,000
hours because that's all we need. And it's still really valuable for us here because that enables

635
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:21,280
us to step away from the baking and do all this stuff that we've not done for years because you're

636
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:27,760
here and bake for us. So, you know, even, even with a little unskilled job as baking, they made a real

637
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:35,760
difference to us. And I think we don't value things for the right reasons. Sometimes I think it's,

638
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:40,320
you know, if you generate so much money or if you then it's valuable, but it's like, no, because you

639
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,800
essentially you give me your time and that's your most precious good.

640
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:50,080
Yes. And the impact you then have on those people, like you say, their self-belief,

641
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:55,760
their confidence, their peace of mind, how they feel about themselves in the world.

642
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,080
It's making me smile because many years ago myself and my then business partner, Christine,

643
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:05,200
we were similar to Saskia and yourself running our own consultancy. And one of the things we

644
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:12,320
floated was the idea of offering career counseling or coaching to new mums, because we recognized

645
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:16,960
that feeling that you just described and we thought we could maybe help. But the more we looked into

646
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:22,720
it, the more we realized that actually that's one of those things where coaching is less powerful

647
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:28,800
than people just going out there and doing it. Because when you want to build your own self-belief

648
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:34,240
and confidence, you need to feel and see some tangible results from your efforts. So sitting

649
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:39,840
and talking about it was never going to fill that gap. So we were like, oh, we don't quite know how

650
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,080
we do it. And so we parked it and never, and then I've met you and I'm like, this is how you do it.

651
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:50,400
You've got these people to come in, you've given them purpose, you've given them flexibility,

652
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:58,000
you've given them work and presumably you have improved their sense of self and their self-worth.

653
01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:58,800
Hopefully.

654
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,960
Yeah. And that's a wonderful thing to do. No matter how many biscuits you sell,

655
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:08,640
maybe that is the thing that you and Saskia will have the most powerful impact on.

656
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:12,560
Yeah. And you know what, I take that over. We made whatever.

657
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:19,840
I know. I can tell you would. Is there anything you would want to say to other women out there

658
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,640
who might be thinking of doing something like you have done?

659
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:28,240
I guess similar to what I would say to myself, like don't stand in your own way. If you just have

660
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:33,360
a tiny little feeling in your belly that the idea has legs or that you would really enjoy it,

661
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:38,320
even if you're not so confident about the potential success, even if you just feel,

662
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,880
if you're drawn to something, then I'd say absolutely do it. And it doesn't have to mean

663
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:47,520
quit your job and find an investor. Maybe you can do it two hours a week on the side

664
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:54,960
and see what happens. And just have a go, get started, start moving, start moving and just

665
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,440
see where it's going to take you. Yeah. And don't worry too much about if you can

666
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:06,400
find someone who's done it that way, you know, do what works for you. And I'm a huge believer that

667
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,000
you'll make it work if it works for you because you then do it for the right reasons.

668
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,920
Lisa, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your leadership journey with me.

669
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:16,720
Thanks for having me.

670
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:27,440
If you've enjoyed listening, don't forget to tell your friends, follow or subscribe. And if you leave

671
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:33,120
me a nice review on Apple podcasts before the 28th of February 2025, then you'll be entered

672
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:47,200
into a prize draw where you can win a free career coaching session with me.