WEBVTT

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Valhalla Conversations podcast. I'm your host

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Becky Hill, otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky,

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and I am a proud Viking geek. I fell in love

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with the history, culture and mythology of the

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Viking Age, and I have been on an endless quest

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for more ever since. Join me as I discuss all

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things North with those who have been inspired

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by Viking Age history and North mythology in

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their creative works, or those who have studied

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the sagas and archaeology and review. how such

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subjects are being presented to modern audiences

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today. If you like Viking stuff you are welcome

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in my Valhalla and I hope you stay for the conversation.

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Welcome everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast,

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where we like to talk all things north, the past,

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the current, the history, the mythology, popular

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culture, and everything else in between. And

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I'm delighted to welcome this episode's guest,

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Dr. Roderick Dale. And he's joining me all the

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way from Stavanger in Norway. Welcome, Roderick.

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Thank you for having me. me and Rory have a bit

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of a personal connection going back quite a few

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years now because I first met Rory at the Unlocking

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the Vikings Symposium or conference, one of the

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two, it was over a couple of days back in the

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UK, I can't remember, was that at the University

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of Nottingham? That was in Nottingham, yeah.

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It was in Nottingham, yes, that's where I first

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met you and learnt about your own passionate

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interests and professional studies and of course

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we've both kind of gone on to do other things

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since. I will read for you, dear listeners and

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dear viewers, his bio from his book The Myths

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and Realities of the Viking Berserker which is

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available from Rutledge and he's worked as an

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archaeologist throughout the United Kingdom and

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in research roles at the University College of

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Cork in Ireland and the University of Nottingham

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here in the UK. He currently works at the University

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of Stavanger in Norway and his research interests

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include Old Norse literature, Viking history

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and the reception of Vikings in popular culture.

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Now, I know for a fact, because we've been keeping

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in touch all these years, as you can tell, because

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I've roped you back in onto the podcast, that

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after we first met at Nottingham all those years

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ago at the Unlocking the Vikings conference,

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you went on to your job at the University of

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Cork in Ireland and had a bit of a role in the

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Project World Tree, which always fascinated me

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and I now have contributed a little bit to that

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because it was about the modern reception representation

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of Vikings in modern day culture. Would you mind

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telling our viewers and listeners more about

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it? Yeah, the World Tree project was a fantastic

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opportunity to find out what people think Vikings

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are. The project was based around getting people

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to submit Viking related items that would then

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be part of an online database that could be used

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as teaching tools. what we learned from it was

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that it's Vikings are everywhere. That was what

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we learned from it. And essentially people found

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loaves of bread with God's names on or packets

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of potato flour with Odin's name on or things

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like that. Viking taxis and Viking pizzas were

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everywhere. And a lot of these, so it was, well,

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it was Tom Burkett's baby. He's the one who came

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up with the idea and got the funding for it.

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He's still at University College Cork and he's

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working on a new project now, NorSmart. Yeah,

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we worked closely together across the UK, Ireland,

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Denmark and Norway. developing a community collection

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initiative where people would spot Vikings in

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the wild, as it were, send them to us. We would

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add them with notes to the website and they're

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then available for teaching purposes. But also

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what it gave us was a very close look at reception

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of Vikings in modern culture. So when we're looking

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at it, we're thinking, why is it Viking river

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cruises, for example? But then you're plundering

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the heritage of the area in a metaphorical sense.

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And Viking taxis, are you really going to get

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into a Viking taxi? That was what we were working

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on. The website last I looked was still up. I

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haven't actually checked in a while, I must admit.

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But it's available. We got given people who worked

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in academia let us have some notes that could

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be used as teaching resources about the Vikings.

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And it included a wide variety of different types

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of being. for wanting a better word that is Viking

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related. It's certainly a fascinating area and

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I know I remember being in a fish and chip shop

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in my hometown of Huddersfield and seeing kind

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of like on the window kind of like a stylised

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Viking longship, photorefing that and sending

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that in. As well as when I went to see York Minster

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and they had a digitized copy of the Gospel of

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York. Gospel of York? No, not the Gospel of York.

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It would be an old book to do with York Minster

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and it had the pages of where Emma and King Canoaton

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visited and I remember taking photos of that

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and sending it in. But I did follow it with great

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interest because it is remarkable how much Vikings

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are not just a people of history, their own culture,

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their own mythology and all that, but they are

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very much a brand now. It's amazing what connotations

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are applied when you have the word Viking in

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front of a business or a product or a service.

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Oh yeah, I mean that's something that we found,

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for example Viking tires are hard wearing, you

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know, and a lot of the things that have a Viking

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related name to them build on the mythology of

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the Vikings or the myth of the Vikings, the idea

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that they're adventurous, hardy, go places nobody

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else does, and that they survive. So they bring

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to mind a lot of different things that aren't

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necessarily what the historical Vikings are.

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To some extent, there are two types of Viking

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in the world. There's the historical Viking and

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there's the Viking brand. The Viking brand has

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horned helmets and the historical Viking doesn't.

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How do you know they're Vikings if they don't

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have horned helmets? That is a very good point

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that there are two types of Viking. I'm sure

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if that project were just an eternal database

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where people could contribute for years and years

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to come, it would be fascinating to look at it

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in 100 years time and see how that image has

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evolved or continued to evolve, or whether it's

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just stuck and it continues to repeat the same

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characteristics and types. It's very interesting.

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You can actually see it if you compare older

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online searches for Viking. versus the ones that

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you see now. It's very clear that TV programs

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like Vikings have influenced how Vikings look

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in pop culture. So you can go online and do a

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search. And I did that for an article I've written

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recently, which I hope will get published. It

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showed that modern Vikings are much darker and

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muddier. Older vices were very much shampoo adverts

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with flowing golden blonde hair and very much

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looking like beefcake men, a lot of them. And

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now they all look like Travis Fimmel. Well, it's

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made me actually remember that, was it last week?

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It was last week when I did my weekly food shot.

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there was an energy drink brand and I can't remember

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the name of the brand but they had a new flavor

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cult coming out called Viking Berries and it

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had it had very stereotypical cartoon -esque

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artwork of a male Viking, horned helmet. He had

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a round shield, he had a sword, he also had two

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axes on his back which I thought was a bit of

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a overkill. He was surrounded by skulls also

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with horned helmets on so it's kind of like the

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question of like who killed these Vikings and

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then on the opposite side of the can was what

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I guess you could call a shield maiden although

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she wasn't wielding a shield she had an axe of

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her own, a two -handed one and a wolf. just to

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make her look even more fearsome. And of course

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a longship in the background with more horned

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helmets popping out. And I did send it in to

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the Nordic mythology podcast Discord Tube saying,

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have you seen this spiking drink? It looks horrible.

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Horrible. I mean, what's this guy got two axes

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for when he's already got a shield and a sword?

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Well, you've got to have spares just in case

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you lose it in the middle of the battle. But

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it really represents, as you say, that brand

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image that people have now of Vikings. And I

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certainly want to think back to more innocent

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representations, such as Christina Cowell's How

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to Train Your Dragon. All her Vikings have hold

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helmets, even though at first, in the live action

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adaptation of her book, they do look genuinely

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ridiculous. So you can kind of see my hold helmets

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would not work in any battle shape. or existence

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in the world. But it's that motif, that iconography

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that's kind of stuck to it. Very much like how

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Valkyrie's kind of figures of beauty and ethereal

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are and kind of like you dream of going off with

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one, you don't really dread going off with one.

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Considering it means you die, kind of like who

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would want to? There's so much and I would certainly

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kind of like love. I think I will have to go

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back to Project Unisil and just have a more nosy

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on their website because there was so much more

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on there than the little bits that I put on.

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And as you mentioned, Tom Berkett is now working

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on the North Map, which seems to be an even bigger

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bubble, so to speak, looking again at representation

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of Vikings and in some ways their mythology as

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well, not just their historical. representations,

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but across literature and art and music. And

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I was so jealous every time he advertised for

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a PhD funded placement. I'm like, I would if

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I could, I would if I could. But I don't have

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the degrees or the qualifications or the time,

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especially now that I've got a baby waiting to

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come out for me in the summer. So I will be following

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that project with great interest. It's just a

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shame it's still early days otherwise I'd have

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had him on as well on the podcast. But maybe

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to later date when he's got some data to show

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off. because it's fascinating to think how our

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20th century minds have morphed and amalgamated

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people from the time. You have to think how do

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people in the future amalgamate us as 20th century

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folk because it must happen at some point. We

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can't always be the innocent party and not change

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in some representation. That's it. And what will

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be interesting in the future is which bits of

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our culture and who will be the people that are

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representative of it to those people of the future,

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much like we get with the Vikings, where the

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focus is always on the elites. So all we hear

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about is Viking warriors and we don't hear about

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Viking pig farmers often enough. That's true.

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All the fishermen, all the boat builders. and

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all like as you say kind of like there must be

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sheep farmers because I know kind of they used

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wool a lot in their sales that it took a lot

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of sheep's wool to make just one cell so that's

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a whole industry of people there doing that job

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but no no one really knows about it. I think

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that's one thing I always liked about when there

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have been big Viking exhibitions like the one

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at the British Museum over a decade ago now which

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I still can't believe but I was lucky enough

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to go there and you get to see or even in the

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orbit. Museum actually in York, I think they've

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got a plank of wood where you can just see someone's

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carved out the lines to play Knappertafel. Even

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though it's kind of seen as an elite game, people,

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more common people knew the rules would probably

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use stones or rocks or shiny pebbles as the pieces.

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Well I mean the National Museum of Ireland in

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Dublin basically has a rock with, I don't think

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it's a Knappertafel, I think it's a Merrill's

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board, it's a nine men's morris board. basically

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scratched onto it I mean we say it's an elite

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game but these games were played by almost everybody

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we have evidence from the sagas of people sitting

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around playing games including the women so therefore

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you know it's not just burly macho warriors sitting

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in the hall getting drunk and playing board games

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it's everybody I mean people are always going

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to play games and games like those are really

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easy because you scratch a board on the ground,

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grab some rocks, somebody else grabs some different

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bits and pieces and you can play. Yeah that's

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a very good point. It's made me think back to

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when finds from the talk see winter camp were

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found and they found kind of like hundreds if

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not thousands of dice in like big shapes little

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ones with some tiny tiny little dice and kind

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of like they were probably using gambling or

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other types of games yet they all got lost somehow

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or just discarded when they got moved on. The

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D &D player in me kind of thinks I would never

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lose my dice like that these dice are kind of

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like staying in my D &D bag they're not going

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to get lost and buried underground and found

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hundreds of years later. There's always one die

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that disappears under the sofa and never re -emerges.

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Oh, yes. Or the dreaded deep floor when you step

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on it. Ouch, yes. Yeah, worse than Lego. But

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yeah, I mean, the gaming pieces from Torxy, we've

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realised that they're diagnostic of Viking Age

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activity as well. So they're not just found at

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Torxy and they just look like little lead thimbles

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and they're everywhere too. So yeah, people were

00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.320
sitting around playing games in these camps.

00:15:50.259 --> 00:15:52.600
And I say camps, I mean, Torxy was big enough

00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:57.259
to be a town. It was. They obviously had like

00:15:57.259 --> 00:15:58.820
their own followers that would come through.

00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:01.360
I think there was evidence of Smith working there,

00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:04.220
obviously to repair bits of buckles or repair

00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.019
swords and other stuff. So it was quite kind

00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:08.779
of like, as you say, it was kind of, if not a

00:16:08.779 --> 00:16:12.200
town, definitely at least a mobile village. main

00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:14.120
warriors, but all the people who supported those

00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.840
warriors, almost like groupies, so to speak.

00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:19.379
The people who cooked, the people who hunted,

00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:21.019
the people who put up the tents, put them down

00:16:21.019 --> 00:16:26.679
again. Not just groupies, also merchants. Basically

00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:31.159
they found the various dodecahedral weights,

00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:38.019
I think they are dodecahedral, that have their

00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:41.750
origins in Middle Eastern weight types. So there

00:16:41.750 --> 00:16:44.389
were merchants there. There's evidence for women

00:16:44.389 --> 00:16:46.490
there, which means there's evidence for children

00:16:46.490 --> 00:16:49.570
there. You know, I mean, it was a town. I mean,

00:16:49.710 --> 00:16:51.909
the estimate toxic had a population of around

00:16:51.909 --> 00:16:55.450
5000 people or something. That's a fairly large

00:16:55.450 --> 00:16:59.970
town by that time standards. So, yeah, there

00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:03.769
was everybody there and, you know, an entire

00:17:03.769 --> 00:17:06.509
support network of people who saw an opportunity

00:17:06.509 --> 00:17:11.049
to get rich quick off the people who were actually

00:17:11.049 --> 00:17:17.170
in the army it's certainly a better version of

00:17:17.170 --> 00:17:20.309
kind of like engagement more than having them

00:17:20.309 --> 00:17:21.829
turn up at your village and start burning your

00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:23.910
house down on seeding all your pigs because they

00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:25.710
need the pigs to feed their army kind of like

00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:27.849
i'll sell you my pig if you give me some gold

00:17:27.849 --> 00:17:32.869
for it oh yeah i should say more than gold more

00:17:32.869 --> 00:17:35.450
likely silver but yeah yeah i'm sure they wouldn't

00:17:35.450 --> 00:17:40.140
turn their noses up at gold either So we've got

00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:44.740
all that evidence and these types of artifacts

00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:47.660
are scattered all around that area as well. The

00:17:47.660 --> 00:17:49.940
metal detectors have found and reported quite

00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:54.519
a few that show where people were and it's instructive

00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:56.680
to see how many of them are alongside the river

00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.099
so you can see that the great army was using

00:18:00.099 --> 00:18:03.220
the rivers like we would use the A1 or the M1.

00:18:04.430 --> 00:18:07.049
Yeah, because those ships were formidable at

00:18:07.049 --> 00:18:10.009
going up the rivers in ways that other previously

00:18:10.009 --> 00:18:12.250
kind of like other big warships or remaining

00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:14.569
armies couldn't, which of course is one of the

00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:19.109
keys to the Viking success. Coming back to Project

00:18:19.109 --> 00:18:22.369
World Tree, you mentioned how it had input not

00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:24.809
just from the UK and Ireland but also from Norway.

00:18:25.349 --> 00:18:27.990
Did you ever notice any differences between how

00:18:27.990 --> 00:18:30.190
Vikings were represented in obviously their native

00:18:30.190 --> 00:18:33.309
Scandinavia compared to the British Isles where

00:18:33.309 --> 00:18:36.220
they kind of have the kind of like the good bad

00:18:36.220 --> 00:18:39.220
boy image so to speak they're the bad guys from

00:18:39.220 --> 00:18:43.579
history that everyone likes not really there

00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:50.160
are some things that are different names of gods

00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:54.380
from Norse mythology are more common on everyday

00:18:54.380 --> 00:19:01.299
items so that kind of thing but generally speaking

00:19:02.110 --> 00:19:04.849
the same attributes that make them popular in

00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:07.690
the UK are the ones that make them popular in

00:19:07.690 --> 00:19:13.230
Scandinavia and make and also in the Norwegian

00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:17.650
settled areas or the North settled areas of America.

00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:22.750
Interesting. They've always kind of like wondered

00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:25.490
what it must be like to grow up having that culture

00:19:25.490 --> 00:19:28.529
as part of your national identity and then wondering

00:19:28.529 --> 00:19:31.839
whether they kind of like hey they have a particular

00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.259
view or stance on it compared to people where

00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:37.240
the Vikings invaded and settled more than actually

00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.920
kind of naturally flourished as a society. Yeah

00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.299
that's a good question I should ask my colleagues.

00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.859
What do you think about Vikings Holvore? Yeah

00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:55.599
no I genuinely don't know how Vikings are received

00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:57.900
here in that way I think they're just part of

00:19:57.900 --> 00:20:01.539
the culture. I mean, I know that just three miles

00:20:01.539 --> 00:20:03.640
down the road from me, the bottle of Hofstjord

00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:08.140
was fought. I know some people call it into a

00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:10.299
question whether it actually was fought there.

00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.539
But there's information boards up about it that

00:20:15.539 --> 00:20:18.039
present information that I don't entirely agree

00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.980
with about dates and things like that. And there's

00:20:22.980 --> 00:20:26.819
a monument, the swords in the rock, to commemorate

00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:33.789
it. These kinds of things are found all over.

00:20:35.250 --> 00:20:37.829
The local archaeological museum has an amazing

00:20:37.829 --> 00:20:41.750
collection of room stones in it, as well as some

00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:47.509
lovely Viking Age finds, including gold. But

00:20:47.509 --> 00:20:53.150
I'm not convinced that people think too hard

00:20:53.150 --> 00:21:00.079
about the Vikings. They just are. Yeah. But I

00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:01.900
wonder if that's almost kind of like the way

00:21:01.900 --> 00:21:04.660
us Brits treat the Anglo -Saxons a bit like,

00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:06.720
yep, we had the Anglo -Saxons with King Alfred

00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:09.339
and then we had King Athelstan and eventually

00:21:09.339 --> 00:21:11.319
become one big country, et cetera, et cetera,

00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:13.859
et cetera. Kind of like it's, because we're taught

00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:16.059
it all as a teenage at school, we're kind of

00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:19.140
like not too fussed about it when we're all adults

00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.000
and we're seeing it pop up on history channels

00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:26.419
or on history dramas kind of thing. Certainly

00:21:26.419 --> 00:21:29.920
it makes me think to an advert for wearing bicycle

00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.539
helmets which made me chuckle, that North Smith

00:21:32.539 --> 00:21:34.720
use of Facebook shared where it's set to the

00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.259
Viking age and this guy is going to ride off

00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:39.960
and join his troop to go and, well not his troop,

00:21:40.180 --> 00:21:42.519
his kind of like shipmates on a ship to go raiding

00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.400
and his kind of like son comes out saying are

00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:47.019
you not going to wear your helmet? He goes no,

00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.119
no it'll damage my braids, it'll damage my hair.

00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:51.309
I was like yeah but... it's not going to protect

00:21:51.309 --> 00:21:53.309
you from arrows or anything so can you like just

00:21:53.309 --> 00:21:55.250
put it on and his wife eventually comes out with

00:21:55.250 --> 00:21:56.750
the baby saying look will you just put it on

00:21:56.750 --> 00:21:59.789
so you can come back and then I'm not having

00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:01.930
to wait for it to find out what you've been shot

00:22:01.930 --> 00:22:06.289
in the head by an arrow and I thought that was

00:22:06.289 --> 00:22:10.230
a really clever interpretation of reflecting

00:22:10.230 --> 00:22:12.670
kind of like the safety value of wearing a bicycle

00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:14.750
helmet both for bikes and motorbikes of course

00:22:14.750 --> 00:22:18.049
I think it's primarily motorbikes this case but

00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:20.869
kind of like the idea of Vikings wearing helmets,

00:22:21.609 --> 00:22:24.769
because of course we've got the ever -ending

00:22:24.769 --> 00:22:28.049
myth of them having horned helmets, but I think

00:22:28.049 --> 00:22:30.589
I was chatting to another previous guest, Cedric

00:22:30.589 --> 00:22:33.170
Adrian, and he said there's only been one genuine

00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:37.690
Viking age helmet ever found, which I found equally

00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:40.390
mind -blowing. I thought, well why has this concept

00:22:40.390 --> 00:22:43.750
come from that they all had helmets, if not chainmail,

00:22:43.890 --> 00:22:45.789
or mail, I should suppose, because it's not chainmail,

00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:50.029
it's mail. Another thing I learnt recently. That

00:22:50.029 --> 00:22:56.009
was equally rare. Yeah, the only nearly complete

00:22:56.009 --> 00:22:58.630
Viking Age helmet ever found is the Jarmundi

00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:02.450
helmet from Norway. And it's the spectacle style

00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:07.450
helmet that you sometimes see. There have been

00:23:07.450 --> 00:23:11.410
eyebrows found. I'm waving my hands around like

00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:13.630
people will be able to see what I'm doing here.

00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:18.759
But basically the sort of the ridged brows of

00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.160
helmets have been found. There's a couple from

00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:25.160
Denmark that I know of and they remind quite

00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:32.839
a bit of the Vendel era helmets. But the Jammu

00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:36.200
helmet is quite plain, so it lacks all the helmet

00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:38.920
decorative helmet plates and everything else.

00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:43.480
So yeah, we only have that one helmet. It doesn't

00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:45.460
have horns on it, so they obviously took them

00:23:45.460 --> 00:23:47.640
off before they threw it away, or maybe they

00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:52.480
fell off and that's why they threw it away. But

00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:57.400
as Roberta Frank outlined quite a while ago,

00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:02.319
the real influence is Wagner here. Oh yes, I

00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.900
could have a whole episode talking about him!

00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:13.960
But the chorus of the ring cycle all wore horned

00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:17.380
helmets. The gods don't wear horned helmets and

00:24:17.380 --> 00:24:20.799
we see that in the iconography as well, but the

00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.059
everyday Vikings all have horned helmets and

00:24:23.059 --> 00:24:26.380
that's where it comes from. But that's also interesting

00:24:26.380 --> 00:24:29.319
because that's where the Valkyrie iconography

00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:37.779
comes from too. with her winged helmet and that

00:24:37.779 --> 00:24:39.940
just goes all the way through, you see it in

00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:43.700
the 1928 The Viking, all the way through to Zena

00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:47.140
Warrior Princess and they all have that winged

00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:54.299
helmet when they're being Valkyries. So, Wagner,

00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:58.579
well, Karl Dupluss designs for Wagner massively

00:24:58.579 --> 00:25:03.009
influential. And I know I've had this argument

00:25:03.009 --> 00:25:06.309
with people when Twitter was a thing who said,

00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:09.170
oh, it's not Wagner because the Valkyries don't

00:25:09.170 --> 00:25:10.970
have horned helmets. And it's like Valkyries

00:25:10.970 --> 00:25:14.349
are a completely different iconography. They're

00:25:14.349 --> 00:25:18.210
a completely different stereotype to the Vikings

00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:21.950
with the chorus and the gods with their winged

00:25:21.950 --> 00:25:25.869
helmets as well. So so that's where it comes

00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:30.109
from. And I have no idea why that was so influential.

00:25:31.179 --> 00:25:36.079
But it was. Well, as you know, I kind of happened

00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:40.299
to join you in Stavanger two years ago now. I

00:25:40.299 --> 00:25:42.460
started my crazy fan theories about Valkyries

00:25:42.460 --> 00:25:45.339
in fiction, and I didn't quite get to touch on

00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:47.599
the iconography of their design, but I do in

00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:50.000
the article. That is hopefully, hopefully keeping

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.480
my double fingers crossed here, folks, going

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:54.039
to get through to publication and see the light

00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:58.210
of day after two years of work. And I did dive

00:25:58.210 --> 00:26:01.109
a bit deeper into where kind of like these modern

00:26:01.109 --> 00:26:05.170
day authors are find this attiring their Valkyries

00:26:05.170 --> 00:26:07.190
and ultimately it does of course stem from the

00:26:07.190 --> 00:26:10.289
winged helmet look from Wagner and only one of

00:26:10.289 --> 00:26:13.950
them actually adapts the winged helmet look to

00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:17.250
be more almost like centurion cheek plates because

00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:19.789
she has the wings coming down along the cheeks

00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:22.210
instead of being up and upright and flapping

00:26:22.210 --> 00:26:24.329
about and getting caught in all sorts I suspect.

00:26:26.309 --> 00:26:30.390
But I know I looked at Alberto Delgado's book

00:26:30.390 --> 00:26:33.349
about Viking films, and he has a small section

00:26:33.349 --> 00:26:35.750
on Wagner, but also about the winged helmet being

00:26:35.750 --> 00:26:39.450
used to represent the protagonist, the hero.

00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:41.990
And that's actually got Celtic roots to do with

00:26:41.990 --> 00:26:45.369
a series of Celtic poetry. It didn't last with

00:26:45.369 --> 00:26:48.930
the Vikings as film characters in their own right,

00:26:49.009 --> 00:26:51.690
but it did transfer, as you say, to the Valkyries

00:26:51.690 --> 00:26:54.049
with them ever since. It's never really left.

00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:59.440
but I think, what's his name, there's another

00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.799
academic that is in Spain and I've forgotten

00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.680
his name, but he had written an article a couple

00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:10.500
years ago about Viking representation in 18th

00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:13.099
and 19th century art and he found that there

00:27:13.099 --> 00:27:16.259
was a painting, a mural, I think it was in a

00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:19.119
museum in Berlin before Wagner's cycle started,

00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:22.180
that depicts Tia the god of war and he's got

00:27:22.180 --> 00:27:25.519
two Valkyries question mark, either side of him

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.160
and they've got winged helmets because of course

00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:31.180
their connotation with war was more recognized

00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:32.720
in that sense. I think that's one thing that's

00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:35.579
definitely been lost with the Valkyrie iconography

00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:37.779
compared to the Viking iconography. Vikings are

00:27:37.779 --> 00:27:39.339
always at war, they're always killing people,

00:27:39.579 --> 00:27:41.799
raiding, pillaging. The Valkyries are kind of

00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:46.299
more beautiful, strong, independent women which

00:27:46.299 --> 00:27:48.380
is a more 20th century edition than actually

00:27:48.380 --> 00:27:50.480
being kind of like the bloodthirsty, curdling

00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:53.569
kind of like... horrors that they were supposedly

00:27:53.569 --> 00:27:56.930
more like to the people of the time when these

00:27:56.930 --> 00:28:01.470
myths and legends were told. So that's just a

00:28:01.470 --> 00:28:03.529
tip of an iceberg. I would love to do much more

00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:05.309
research on winged helmets. It would be awesome

00:28:05.309 --> 00:28:07.309
to see if I can find out when it's starting.

00:28:08.789 --> 00:28:10.690
Who put them on compared to who put the horns

00:28:10.690 --> 00:28:15.329
on the helmet? Winged helmets as well and similar

00:28:15.329 --> 00:28:19.069
helmets are all generic barbarian traits prior

00:28:19.069 --> 00:28:23.019
to Wagner. So there's a lot of that going on.

00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:26.660
I've not looked into it in any detail, so there's

00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:30.819
plenty of room for you to do that. Please go

00:28:30.819 --> 00:28:42.019
ahead. But there's this idea of barbarians, 19th

00:28:42.019 --> 00:28:44.559
century idea of barbarians, that they all have

00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:49.750
these winged helmets and similar. you know they

00:28:49.750 --> 00:28:53.990
all look a bit like Asterix yeah i mean now that

00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:55.670
you've mentioned that it's also made me think

00:28:55.670 --> 00:29:00.069
of eric the viking written by one of the gang

00:29:00.069 --> 00:29:02.750
from monty python i've forgotten his name and

00:29:02.750 --> 00:29:07.529
it's all very billion um no it's the other one

00:29:07.529 --> 00:29:10.690
the one that probably died i think he had parkinson's

00:29:10.690 --> 00:29:15.470
or alzheimer's oh i'm gonna get it off my shelf

00:29:15.470 --> 00:29:18.779
one second can't not name him, that's embarrassing.

00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:25.960
Kerry Jones, I knew Kerry, but his hero in his

00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:28.359
book, and it is a really delightful kids book,

00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:31.839
very reminiscent of Islamic sagas but much more

00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:36.420
fun, and his hero also has winged helmets in

00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:39.160
the illustration. So even he's carrying on that

00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.599
motif of winged helmet signaling this is the

00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.440
leader, this is the guy you need to follow, not

00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:50.779
the other. people in the group. But I guess speaking

00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:53.319
about barbarians we really should touch on one

00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.180
area that I know is kind of like your dominant

00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:59.000
area of expertise which of course is berserkers

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.119
and your excellent book The Myths and Realities

00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:04.859
of the Viking Berserker looks at all of this

00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:07.440
in terms of berserkers like why do we think they

00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.680
ate magic mushrooms and wore loin cloths or just

00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.400
bare skins and would go off and commit merry

00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.230
murder? and then have a bit of a daze afterwards?

00:30:17.309 --> 00:30:20.950
Yeah, yeah, no, I spent far too long researching

00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:28.630
Basadkar. Is that a sign of a wasted life? No,

00:30:28.670 --> 00:30:30.650
it must have been interesting because what sparked

00:30:30.650 --> 00:30:33.470
the idea off? What sparked the idea? I wanted

00:30:33.470 --> 00:30:36.109
to do a PhD and it was a topic that I wasn't

00:30:36.109 --> 00:30:42.299
particularly interested in. Shall I begin at

00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:44.660
the beginning? Let us begin at the beginning.

00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.640
I've always been interested in Vikings and Norse

00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:53.059
mythology since as far as I can remember. My

00:30:53.059 --> 00:30:55.559
mother always said that it was because my grandma

00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.640
told us stories of our Norse forefathers or some

00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:03.049
such rubbish, but I don't remember that. And

00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:05.269
then, of course, you get into Dungeons and Dragons

00:31:05.269 --> 00:31:07.890
and there's barbarians who go berserk and everything

00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:10.230
else. And it's super cool when you're 13 and

00:31:10.230 --> 00:31:15.210
14 and thinking, whoa, this is awesome. Obviously,

00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:17.150
what was more awesome was actually learning to

00:31:17.150 --> 00:31:21.349
read old Norse as much doing my undergrad and

00:31:21.349 --> 00:31:23.910
reading the Icelandic sagas and realizing that

00:31:23.910 --> 00:31:25.750
things were actually even more interesting when

00:31:25.750 --> 00:31:27.990
you looked at the reality instead of the rather

00:31:27.990 --> 00:31:34.079
superficial stereotypes. So. After I did my master's

00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:35.880
in Viking and Anglo -Saxon studies, I thought

00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:38.440
I'd like to do a PhD. And I was casting around

00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:40.480
for something to do. And it took an absolute

00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:43.619
age to sort myself out and get the courage up

00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:46.720
to say, can I look at berserkers to Judith Yesh,

00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.599
who was going to be my supervisor? And then she

00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:57.980
said, oh, I guess. So and I just thought, well,

00:31:58.339 --> 00:32:01.720
I would really like to look at this. I feel like

00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.480
there is room for something more in there and

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.180
I can adjust the perception of them slightly

00:32:07.180 --> 00:32:11.339
and also give me an excuse to read all about

00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:16.960
them and yeah it kind of snowballed from there

00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:19.200
when I realized that I'd gone into it thinking

00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.259
in completely incorrectly about the whole thing.

00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:29.319
Oh, it was fantastic. It was it was it was like

00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.579
there was a light bulb moment where I suddenly

00:32:31.579 --> 00:32:34.259
thought nobody's actually asked if they went

00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:37.880
berserk. Everybody says, how did they go berserk?

00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:42.500
Nobody takes the first step. You know, it's not

00:32:42.500 --> 00:32:47.359
you can't ask how without asking, did they? And

00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:52.410
then reading the text and getting into it. I

00:32:52.410 --> 00:32:54.509
realized that actually the medieval audience

00:32:54.509 --> 00:32:57.210
probably didn't think they went berserk because

00:32:57.210 --> 00:33:02.769
they're not associated with berserk words. And

00:33:02.769 --> 00:33:05.509
so a lot of the perception that we have of them

00:33:05.509 --> 00:33:11.109
comes from people's translations. So people will

00:33:11.109 --> 00:33:14.009
read a translation and the translation says he

00:33:14.009 --> 00:33:16.470
went berserk and did this, that and the other.

00:33:18.329 --> 00:33:21.109
That's a translator's interpretation. That's

00:33:21.109 --> 00:33:27.910
not the actual text. And yeah, it kind of snowballed

00:33:27.910 --> 00:33:34.809
from there, really. But my interest still remains

00:33:34.809 --> 00:33:39.630
in that topic, which is why I'm here happily

00:33:39.630 --> 00:33:49.700
talking about it. I also feel like the book probably

00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:52.140
provides everything I should have said, if not

00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:55.160
in all, even if all the words are not in exactly

00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.299
the right order that I would like them to be

00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:01.359
in. It's a topic where I keep coming back and

00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.299
thinking, should I have said it this way to help

00:34:03.299 --> 00:34:08.519
people understand what I'm thinking? But it's

00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:10.360
interesting because once you actually start looking

00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:16.260
at the source material, then you realize that

00:34:16.429 --> 00:34:18.969
If you're going to analyse the topic properly,

00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:21.289
you've got to try and understand what the medieval

00:34:21.289 --> 00:34:25.329
saga audience thought about it, because we only

00:34:25.329 --> 00:34:28.190
know the word from the Old Norse literature,

00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:31.510
which means that if we did not have that Old

00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:34.550
Norse literature, we would not have Viking Berserkers.

00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:39.550
No, that's true. We would have depictions of

00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:43.360
people wearing wolf skins. from a very small

00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:48.179
number of places in Scandinavia, plus from other

00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:51.579
places in Europe. But we wouldn't actually have

00:34:51.579 --> 00:34:58.179
the word berserk. So you cannot start your analysis

00:34:58.179 --> 00:35:00.380
by asking how did they go berserk. You've got

00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:02.599
to start your analysis by asking how are they

00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:06.239
depicted in Old Norse literature. When you start

00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.599
doing that, you've got to then remember that

00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:12.179
Old Norse literature is not reportage. It is

00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:16.440
a view of the Viking Age past from an outsider's

00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.420
perspective. Yes, people are living in a development

00:35:20.420 --> 00:35:23.800
of that culture, but they're not actually part

00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:26.960
of that culture. So they're reporting what they

00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.800
saw, not what they understood. It's a bit like

00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:35.349
Ibn Fadlam watching a vulgar burial. and what

00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.730
he's reporting is what he understands of it,

00:35:38.809 --> 00:35:40.750
which isn't necessarily what the participants

00:35:40.750 --> 00:35:46.929
understood of it. So yeah, that's kind of where

00:35:46.929 --> 00:35:49.630
it went and where it came from. And then I looked

00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:52.309
at the sagas as literature and I thought, hang

00:35:52.309 --> 00:35:54.769
on a minute, going berserk doesn't fit with how

00:35:54.769 --> 00:36:02.260
this literature is constructed. then I looked

00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:06.280
at what words were associated with the word Berserkskanger

00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.260
which is usually translated as Berserk of fury

00:36:09.260 --> 00:36:13.039
or went berserk and realized that anger words

00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.980
are not part of it. There is literally one example

00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:20.760
of the word order associated with it and order

00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.599
is the word which became Odin's name as well

00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:30.289
meaning madness or fury. So of all the all the

00:36:30.289 --> 00:36:32.869
instances of encountering Berserkia there is

00:36:32.869 --> 00:36:35.730
literally one who is associated with that word

00:36:35.730 --> 00:36:40.449
and the circumstances of his going berserk in

00:36:40.449 --> 00:36:42.230
the modern English sense of the word are that

00:36:42.230 --> 00:36:44.230
he's just heard that his sons died so he kills

00:36:44.230 --> 00:36:49.590
the messenger. Kind of understandable. I mean

00:36:49.590 --> 00:36:52.550
he was clearly upset he obviously liked his son

00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:58.909
so When you actually start looking at it in more

00:36:58.909 --> 00:37:02.449
detail you just realize that there is a lot more

00:37:02.449 --> 00:37:04.789
going on here and the medieval audience probably

00:37:04.789 --> 00:37:07.150
understood things differently and that means

00:37:07.150 --> 00:37:12.510
that in the Viking Age it is more likely that

00:37:12.510 --> 00:37:14.530
something close to what's being depicted in the

00:37:14.530 --> 00:37:19.780
medieval sources was happening. than that all

00:37:19.780 --> 00:37:22.320
the various ideas about people going berserk

00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:26.059
and eating magic mushrooms or just being hungover

00:37:26.059 --> 00:37:30.360
or whatever that come after because of how language

00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:32.539
develops. The language is developed from the

00:37:32.539 --> 00:37:36.139
Viking Age, the medieval period to now. So our

00:37:36.139 --> 00:37:40.539
modern word means something different. But that

00:37:40.539 --> 00:37:43.059
also is a problem because our modern word is

00:37:43.059 --> 00:37:45.619
so ubiquitous that it's almost impossible to

00:37:45.619 --> 00:37:48.480
take the step back from it to look at the past

00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:54.559
and see the past differently. And yeah, it was

00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:58.820
a rabbit hole. I'm just going to say that. I

00:37:58.820 --> 00:38:01.179
completely relate, I feel like there's a lot

00:38:01.179 --> 00:38:03.840
more I could do with Valkyries just generally,

00:38:04.099 --> 00:38:05.619
certainly in terms of their depiction because

00:38:05.619 --> 00:38:07.460
I'm not a historian, I haven't studied history,

00:38:07.579 --> 00:38:09.159
I haven't even studied the mythology professionally

00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:12.019
at any level, I just read lots of books like

00:38:12.019 --> 00:38:16.360
yours and get lots of ideas and I've always been

00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:19.079
fascinated by the idea of kind of like exploring

00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:24.059
how people represent the Valkyries choosing the

00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:27.159
dead and of course the bigger question of did

00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:29.539
were they subservient to Odin or did they have

00:38:29.539 --> 00:38:31.719
anything with Freya or were they more independent

00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.440
and just kind of like used as a go -between like

00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:36.360
the ferryman in Greek mythology because it's

00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:37.900
you can only get across the river Styx without

00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:39.539
the ferryman without the ferryman how do you

00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:42.260
get across the river Styx you can't so it's but

00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:43.900
then he's not got anyone telling him what to

00:38:43.900 --> 00:38:46.539
do but of course that's a whole other whole other

00:38:46.539 --> 00:38:52.159
debate um it's certainly to touch back on almost

00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.260
like the Monty Python of course Eric the Viking

00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.400
went from a book to being a film, a film that

00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:59.699
was very different from the book in many, many

00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:03.219
ways. It's something I discussed with Dr. Chris

00:39:03.219 --> 00:39:06.460
Tuckley, formerly of York Archaeology, but now

00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:09.840
working at Selby Abbey. He pointed out kind of

00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:12.340
like how the image, the berserker there was just

00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:14.239
kind of like uncalled, offending, frothing at

00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:16.960
the mouth. And it was all comically spewed from

00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.900
having a very persistent father telling him that

00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:24.300
he's doing everything wrong. Oh, yeah. Spend

00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:26.960
them happeningly calm is a fantastic berserker

00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:30.780
figure. You know, telling his son, look, no,

00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:34.039
you've got to control it. You've got to keep

00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:36.559
it in until the right moment instead of going

00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:41.570
berserk all the time. It's actually made me think

00:39:41.570 --> 00:39:43.869
now, I wonder if there was an element of Berserker

00:39:43.869 --> 00:39:46.369
-ness that inspired the creation of the Hulk

00:39:46.369 --> 00:39:48.889
in the Marvel film, because of course he's typically,

00:39:48.909 --> 00:39:52.309
I'm always angry and then I just turn green and

00:39:52.309 --> 00:39:57.610
let it all out. It's hard to tell if it's Viking

00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:00.869
related, but it's clearly Berserk related, yes.

00:40:01.909 --> 00:40:05.010
The Hulk, Wolverine, probably other characters

00:40:05.010 --> 00:40:06.989
that don't immediately spring as they'll like

00:40:06.989 --> 00:40:13.280
to mind. all have these berserker fits. They

00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:19.079
are the epitome of modern ideas of what it is

00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:23.599
to be a berserker. It certainly becomes synonymous

00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.739
with excessive anger, if not excessive violence,

00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:30.820
which stems from excessive anger. Which is why

00:40:30.820 --> 00:40:33.300
people find it so very hard to step away from

00:40:33.300 --> 00:40:35.639
it and actually look more dispassionately at

00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:40.139
the medieval sources. But I do appreciate kind

00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:41.739
of like explaining for viewers and listeners

00:40:41.739 --> 00:40:45.019
how it's not just kind of the language difference

00:40:45.019 --> 00:40:46.960
and language development over centuries that

00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:49.760
has influenced our understanding, perception

00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.800
and meaning. But also kind of how the sources

00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:56.820
that we do have that mention it are also from

00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:00.619
a time outside of the time it was commonly witnessed,

00:41:00.940 --> 00:41:03.880
accepted and better understood, I suppose, more

00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:07.550
relatable to the people. of that time, especially

00:41:07.550 --> 00:41:09.590
kind of like when I'm looking at Norse mythology,

00:41:10.269 --> 00:41:12.510
of course, most people go straight to kind of

00:41:12.510 --> 00:41:15.070
like Snowy Stilson's prose ever, because it's

00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:17.510
more easy to read than the poetic ever. But of

00:41:17.510 --> 00:41:20.409
course, he was a man, he was a Christian, and

00:41:20.409 --> 00:41:22.789
he was writing it with a set agenda and a bias

00:41:22.789 --> 00:41:26.289
that wouldn't have existed at the time when those

00:41:26.289 --> 00:41:28.650
stories were better and wider known kind of thing.

00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:32.789
Yeah, I mean, Snoddy's an interesting example

00:41:32.789 --> 00:41:37.190
because he did try to write things down so that

00:41:37.190 --> 00:41:40.070
the poets of his day could understand them. His

00:41:40.070 --> 00:41:42.469
goal wasn't preserving the Norse mythology per

00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:44.650
se, it was helping people understand the old

00:41:44.650 --> 00:41:50.610
poetry. So he wrote the stories down, but we're

00:41:50.610 --> 00:41:53.250
also pretty sure that he structured things in

00:41:53.250 --> 00:41:55.170
a way that they wouldn't have been structured

00:41:55.170 --> 00:42:00.199
in the Viking Age. We know that Viking Age religion

00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.880
was intensely personal. You had a personal relationship

00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:07.219
with the gods. You did not need intercessors

00:42:07.219 --> 00:42:10.260
or intermediaries to make your sacrifices to

00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:14.900
the gods. And that it was a lived religion, not

00:42:14.900 --> 00:42:20.380
something you just did on Sundays. So, and Snoddy

00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:23.460
systematized that to some extent to make it more

00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:29.699
coherent in his work. But He also, I mean, he

00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:33.440
employed historical method as well. His explanations

00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:36.239
of why he trusts Scaldic verse are interesting

00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:42.159
and fit, you know, because it's he had various

00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.639
ideas about Scalds would not lie to their lords

00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:50.960
or overly flatter them. It's all in his introduction

00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:58.849
to the Edda. So he's He's an interesting character

00:42:58.849 --> 00:43:05.929
in a lot of ways but what he's presenting is

00:43:05.929 --> 00:43:09.329
not the religion as it was lived necessarily

00:43:09.329 --> 00:43:12.969
by people living in the north of Sweden or the

00:43:12.969 --> 00:43:17.070
south of Denmark or whatever or wherever. We

00:43:17.070 --> 00:43:19.329
can see from place names that different areas

00:43:19.329 --> 00:43:23.389
have different focuses in terms of which gods

00:43:23.389 --> 00:43:29.219
seem to be favoured. and Snorri is writing, I

00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:32.679
mean he was at the court in Norway but he was

00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:35.579
writing in Iceland so he's presenting a more

00:43:35.579 --> 00:43:38.960
Icelandic perspective as well. This is another

00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.500
issue with the sagas that a lot of them are written

00:43:41.500 --> 00:43:46.039
down in Iceland and only a few of them are known

00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:51.090
from Norway and from other places so... you have

00:43:51.090 --> 00:43:54.090
that geographical bias as well as the distance

00:43:54.090 --> 00:43:58.949
from the time they're describing. Yeah it's a

00:43:58.949 --> 00:44:00.829
shank, so no one could like the other Edder as

00:44:00.829 --> 00:44:04.150
the poetic Edder, and I have Caroline Lawinton's

00:44:04.150 --> 00:44:07.409
translation and that was a core piece of my own

00:44:07.409 --> 00:44:09.750
independent Valkyrie research because of course

00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:12.110
when I was looking at primarily the legend of

00:44:12.110 --> 00:44:16.070
Brynhild, it's hard to not acknowledge Brynhild's

00:44:16.070 --> 00:44:19.739
legend without looking at the other sagas that

00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:22.500
feature Valkyrie characters, although not as

00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:25.239
dramatically as Brynhill's own kind of like arrival

00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:30.579
and ending. Like the legend, the second poem

00:44:30.579 --> 00:44:33.480
of Helgi Hunding -Spain, or Hunding -Stade, whichever

00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:35.539
way you want to pronounce it, I always butcher

00:44:35.539 --> 00:44:39.340
it. kind of how it mentions in kind of almost

00:44:39.340 --> 00:44:42.239
like a footnote from the person who was writing

00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.500
it down who we don't know and we don't know who

00:44:44.500 --> 00:44:46.880
they heard this story from they mentioned oh

00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:48.699
yes there was this other poem called the song

00:44:48.699 --> 00:44:51.360
of cara and they reincarnated and that's now

00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:55.260
lost so i'm like That's such a tease for the

00:44:55.260 --> 00:44:57.760
generations of centuries of future people to

00:44:57.760 --> 00:44:59.760
that who are studying. It's kind of like there

00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:02.199
was other stuff but we don't have it because

00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:04.519
someone decided it wasn't worth writing down

00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:07.320
or they couldn't find someone who knew it. And

00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.000
of course the people who were writing it down,

00:45:09.019 --> 00:45:12.019
as this one says, they described the theory of

00:45:12.019 --> 00:45:14.880
reincarnation as an old wives tale. So they clearly

00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.079
had moved on from that perception, that belief,

00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:18.900
that understanding, plus they were clearly Christian

00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:21.940
probably. because the Christians were the ones

00:45:21.940 --> 00:45:24.820
that were literate, not necessarily the original

00:45:24.820 --> 00:45:27.800
pre -Christian people that worshiped these gods

00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.159
and believed in these stories and had these gals

00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:33.820
telling them orally for decades if not centuries.

00:45:35.739 --> 00:45:38.559
Yeah, I mean it depends what you mean by literate

00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:40.840
because we do have roots from the Viking age

00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:43.360
and before as well, so people were carving written

00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:47.260
texts. And we have to assume that if somebody

00:45:47.260 --> 00:45:49.699
is carving a runestone, they expect other people

00:45:49.699 --> 00:45:53.239
to be able to read it. The problem with those

00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:56.400
is that they are short texts that don't actually

00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.099
give us the information that we get written down

00:45:59.099 --> 00:46:06.360
in the medieval period in Iceland. And we don't

00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.119
know what we've lost unless it's mentioned in

00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:14.320
the footnote. we could have had there could have

00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.239
been versions of these stories that got made

00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:20.340
into bishops mitre somewhere and they've never

00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:24.860
reappeared so yeah we're looking through a keyhole

00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:29.260
at the past the best i like to describe it as

00:46:29.260 --> 00:46:32.440
a jigsaw with half the pieces missing but we

00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:34.559
don't know they're missing until because we're

00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.739
still building what we can with the pieces that

00:46:36.739 --> 00:46:39.039
i like yeah i think all the pieces that don't

00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:42.619
fit i'm wondering why they don't fit But going

00:46:42.619 --> 00:46:45.800
back to Berserkers, of course, the most recent

00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:48.460
depiction that I think of Berserkers is of course

00:46:48.460 --> 00:46:52.659
in the Northman film. Did you watch it and what

00:46:52.659 --> 00:46:54.940
were your thoughts? I did watch it. I watched

00:46:54.940 --> 00:46:58.079
it with an archaeologist friend and I spent more

00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:00.840
time watching him in his face, to be honest.

00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:07.559
I wasn't engaged by the movie The Northman. I

00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:10.300
was interested to see how they depicted Berserkers

00:47:10.300 --> 00:47:14.429
in it. There's a bit where Ulf Hethnard, the

00:47:14.429 --> 00:47:16.670
guys with the wolfskins on, are dancing around

00:47:16.670 --> 00:47:20.289
and I thought, well, this kind of fits in function,

00:47:20.409 --> 00:47:23.530
if not in form, my ideas about what was going

00:47:23.530 --> 00:47:30.570
on in the Viking Age. The idea that Berserksgangr

00:47:30.570 --> 00:47:34.610
was a ritual that you did before a fight. And

00:47:34.610 --> 00:47:38.059
we don't see it before battles. in the saga literature.

00:47:38.219 --> 00:47:41.099
We do see it before duels so maybe it's actually

00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:46.360
intimately associated with Hongan. Not 100 %

00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.420
sure on that. Perhaps it was something that was

00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:53.099
performed before a battle in the same way that

00:47:53.099 --> 00:47:56.059
Tacitus a thousand years earlier described, well

00:47:56.059 --> 00:47:59.940
800 years earlier, describes Germanic warriors

00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:02.300
chanting behind their shields to try and scare

00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:09.780
the enemy. So The idea that it's a performance,

00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:16.460
that it is what struck me, especially after reading

00:48:16.460 --> 00:48:20.360
the sagas where you get more detailed descriptions

00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:27.039
of what's going on. And I mean, I always use

00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:29.920
Eil's saga because it's the most complete example,

00:48:29.980 --> 00:48:33.079
but this is not cherry picking. This is general

00:48:33.079 --> 00:48:41.880
across. all of the examples. So in Arood's saga,

00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:47.000
you get a group of Berserkers chanting on their

00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.579
ship and then they all rush up onto land to fight.

00:48:51.699 --> 00:48:53.699
It's kind of like there's a pause between the

00:48:53.699 --> 00:48:57.639
fight and the chanting. In Hale's saga it's even

00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:00.679
more pronounced. The guy does the Berserkerskanger,

00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:03.440
the Ultrin Blakey does the Berserkerskanger,

00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:05.920
Eyal starts getting impatient and says, look,

00:49:05.980 --> 00:49:10.139
are you ready yet? He says, not yet, and carries

00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:16.199
on. So Eyal composes a poem slighting him, a

00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:19.699
poetry slam kind of thing going on, putting him

00:49:19.699 --> 00:49:23.800
down. Then they fight. Then they have a rest

00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:25.619
because they're a bit tired. So they go, oh,

00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:28.619
can we have a rest now? So Hegel composes a bit

00:49:28.619 --> 00:49:31.699
more poetry, basically slamming the guy again,

00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:33.619
then he kills him afterwards when they carry

00:49:33.619 --> 00:49:37.059
on their fight. There is nothing in the pacing

00:49:37.059 --> 00:49:39.860
of that narrative that suggests that this berserker,

00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:43.659
Jotrim Bleke, Jot the Pale, has gone berserk.

00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:47.079
The distinct narrative pauses indicate that in

00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:50.619
fact he's in control and that what he's doing

00:49:50.619 --> 00:49:56.730
before the duel is something else. To my mind

00:49:56.730 --> 00:50:01.010
then, that means it's some kind of a ritual function.

00:50:02.630 --> 00:50:05.110
Every archaeologist says it's all ritual, but

00:50:05.110 --> 00:50:07.530
we'll leave that aside for a moment. It's some

00:50:07.530 --> 00:50:10.949
kind of ritual where he's trying to build himself

00:50:10.949 --> 00:50:14.570
up for the fight, possibly scare Ael, who's not

00:50:14.570 --> 00:50:16.710
easily scared by anything, but he didn't know

00:50:16.710 --> 00:50:22.829
that. It may have had some kind of magico -religious

00:50:22.829 --> 00:50:28.510
function in the Viking Age, because he's performing

00:50:28.510 --> 00:50:34.010
it before a ritual duel. In which case, given

00:50:34.010 --> 00:50:36.909
that Basakias seemed to be associated with Odin,

00:50:37.710 --> 00:50:40.670
it might be to actually get the god on his side

00:50:40.670 --> 00:50:45.349
for this forthcoming fight. uh these are all

00:50:45.349 --> 00:50:48.090
things that are lost and all we actually have

00:50:48.090 --> 00:50:51.150
is a description by somebody who is outside this

00:50:51.150 --> 00:50:56.610
milieu and actively saying uh i saw yeah equivalent

00:50:56.610 --> 00:50:59.989
to uh saying i saw this on tv and this is how

00:50:59.989 --> 00:51:06.849
i interpret it so yeah it's very likely that

00:51:06.849 --> 00:51:09.949
vasavskanga wasn't going berserk it was more

00:51:09.949 --> 00:51:14.139
of a ritual that was performed If it had magical

00:51:14.139 --> 00:51:18.039
function, it could have done. The connection

00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:24.480
is incredibly tenuous, but in Hohemahl 156, there

00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:27.780
is Odin's 11th spell is chanting under the shield

00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:30.079
to take people safely into battle and bring them

00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:35.099
home again. Which immediately made me think of

00:51:35.099 --> 00:51:38.280
Tacitus's Baritus, the Germanic warriors chanting

00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:42.340
behind the shield. And then I thought, well,

00:51:42.590 --> 00:51:45.809
You know, is this related to what's going on

00:51:45.809 --> 00:51:50.210
with Berserkia chewing the shields? I was going

00:51:50.210 --> 00:51:52.989
to say yes, the Lewis Chessman biting his shield

00:51:52.989 --> 00:51:55.610
and he's often been described as a berserker.

00:51:55.969 --> 00:51:59.789
Yeah, I mean, that's a medieval pop culture depiction

00:51:59.789 --> 00:52:03.369
of a Viking Age archetype. Worth remembering

00:52:03.369 --> 00:52:05.789
that they're not actually Viking Age, those gaming

00:52:05.789 --> 00:52:08.829
pieces. So they're what the medieval people thought

00:52:08.829 --> 00:52:13.150
of Berserk might have looked like. So potentially

00:52:13.150 --> 00:52:19.789
sorry. So potentially what you've got going on

00:52:19.789 --> 00:52:26.230
is either chewing on the shield is metaphorically

00:52:26.230 --> 00:52:30.429
raising the shield above the mouth or as happens

00:52:30.429 --> 00:52:33.610
in one Irish source, there's a legal text which

00:52:33.610 --> 00:52:35.929
I've been told about that was actually found

00:52:35.929 --> 00:52:38.469
where they plant the teeth in the top of the

00:52:38.469 --> 00:52:40.389
shield and do the chanting behind the shield

00:52:40.389 --> 00:52:45.539
from that. Oh, gosh. I am now full. Literally,

00:52:46.219 --> 00:52:51.320
yes. So potentially, you've got this idea of

00:52:51.320 --> 00:52:53.539
the shield being brought up in front of the mouth

00:52:53.539 --> 00:52:59.380
and then some kind of magical spell being chanted,

00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:03.460
which would fit with the idea of Galdr, which

00:53:03.460 --> 00:53:06.039
is described as like cox -crowing or whatever,

00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:09.079
and also fits with the idea of the various words

00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:12.300
used of Brzec's bellowing. We usually describe

00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:15.460
them as howling, but the actual words used are

00:53:15.460 --> 00:53:18.639
more like sort of bulls and similar animals.

00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.960
So if you've got this really sort of macho, gruff

00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:26.019
bellowing going on behind the shield as well,

00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:31.460
you've got, you've actually potentially got all

00:53:31.460 --> 00:53:34.119
the elements of how buttocks are described in

00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:39.000
the sagas, biting on the shields, bellowing and

00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:44.639
all the rest. The problem is linking that one

00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:49.860
verse in Havamal to the actual saga texts, but

00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:51.940
the resemblances are striking, so I'm going to

00:53:51.940 --> 00:53:54.719
do a bit of a, oh, but hey, this looks like it

00:53:54.719 --> 00:54:02.500
might be right. So that then means that Basadkira

00:54:02.500 --> 00:54:05.360
are associated with dueling. We know they're

00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:08.079
associated with elite kings from sagas like Rolf's

00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:12.219
Saga, so with being part of the bodyguard. We

00:54:12.219 --> 00:54:16.360
know that they're often associated with Odin

00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:20.400
and we know that they do weird stuff that people

00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:23.480
in later times have gone, oh my god, they're

00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.579
absolute nutters because we don't understand

00:54:25.579 --> 00:54:29.179
this because we're looking at it from outside.

00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:34.599
All of these together indicate that you have

00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:39.920
elite warrior types who are functioning as king's

00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:43.099
champions, like Charlemagne's knights or King

00:54:43.099 --> 00:54:45.960
Arthur's knights as his personal bodyguard, and

00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:48.980
doing stuff for them. They're associated with

00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:52.639
duels, which means that potentially some people

00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:56.500
who went round challenging others to duels were

00:54:56.500 --> 00:54:59.460
called Barsechia because they did the dueling

00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:03.840
bit and performed this ritual. There's a lot

00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:10.380
going on, and the real issue here is that we

00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:12.900
just have no Viking Age sources that actually

00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:16.860
talk about that, that tell us that. And when

00:55:16.860 --> 00:55:21.340
we try to relate it to the archaeology, we're

00:55:21.340 --> 00:55:25.219
making connections, but those connections might

00:55:25.219 --> 00:55:27.699
not have existed to the Viking Age people who

00:55:27.699 --> 00:55:31.699
produced the, like the Torslander helmet plates

00:55:31.699 --> 00:55:36.280
with the wolf's... huskin figure and the horned

00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:39.260
helmeted figure on it which are generally thought

00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.280
to be Odin leading the Ulfheden into battle.

00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:48.940
It's entirely possible that something else is

00:55:48.940 --> 00:55:51.099
being depicted there or that it's not actually

00:55:51.099 --> 00:55:54.119
going into battle, it's the pre -battle ritual

00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:59.940
or the pre -dual ritual. Then you've got ideas

00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:03.360
like Neil Price has put out that the war leader

00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:08.119
embodied Odin. The article that he published

00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:14.039
on the Sutton Hoo helmet, where there's no reflective

00:56:14.039 --> 00:56:18.199
film behind the garnet above one of the eyes,

00:56:18.980 --> 00:56:22.179
suggesting that this then was a one -eyed helmet,

00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:25.119
even though the person wearing it had two eyes,

00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:30.480
and thus they were cosplaying Odin. in a Viking

00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.480
age, well actually it's pre -Viking ages for

00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:38.139
that one, but you know, kings might be embodying

00:56:38.139 --> 00:56:41.539
Odin at particular times as the king of the gods,

00:56:41.699 --> 00:56:45.699
leader of the gods. The king then becomes Odin

00:56:45.699 --> 00:56:50.119
in people's minds, intimately connected. And

00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:53.079
again, because they're associated with Odin,

00:56:53.159 --> 00:56:56.079
We're coming back to this thing in half a month,

00:56:56.219 --> 00:56:58.820
saying that the high one, this person there,

00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:04.699
it's an Odinic spell. It is the religion's personal,

00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:09.360
therefore the people performing these rituals

00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:12.539
probably have a personal connection to the god

00:57:12.539 --> 00:57:15.380
and are seen to be the most appropriate person

00:57:15.380 --> 00:57:17.460
to actually do this because of that personal

00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:25.420
connection. And breathe. Yes, and maybe as much

00:57:25.420 --> 00:57:28.119
as you could find all that and more in his book,

00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:30.199
The Myths and Realities of the Viking Berserker,

00:57:30.340 --> 00:57:32.840
because that is a wonderful whirlwind walk through

00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:36.079
it, and I can't wait to read it personally. It's

00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:37.880
just got me thinking more about kind of like

00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:40.739
the way, particularly kind of like in the pop

00:57:40.739 --> 00:57:42.760
culture sense, kind of like how they're represented,

00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:44.800
such as kind of like in D &D, never thought actually,

00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:47.139
oh yeah, Barbary's in D &D, do I have that kind

00:57:47.139 --> 00:57:49.159
of like, I would like to rage, as Grog says,

00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:54.110
critical role, kind of thing. and how they're

00:57:54.110 --> 00:57:55.690
presented because I think the only other time

00:57:55.690 --> 00:57:59.730
I've come across it recently was in a historical

00:57:59.730 --> 00:58:01.929
fiction novel written by Angus Donald called

00:58:01.929 --> 00:58:04.889
The Last Berserker and he presents them very

00:58:04.889 --> 00:58:10.269
much as an elite, lightly reclusive, if not secretive,

00:58:10.530 --> 00:58:14.349
cult society where it involves tribes, groups

00:58:14.349 --> 00:58:16.030
of people being assigned to different animal

00:58:16.030 --> 00:58:18.230
totems and animal spirits and connecting to that

00:58:18.230 --> 00:58:20.869
rage through animals and doing impossible things

00:58:20.869 --> 00:58:25.429
basically. But it was a very deeply spiritual

00:58:25.429 --> 00:58:28.250
and kind of like more as a cult slash following,

00:58:28.409 --> 00:58:31.550
as you say, a religious practice more than actual

00:58:31.550 --> 00:58:34.219
kind of like just seeing the enemy like, okay,

00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:37.159
switching on berserk, go. They all had certain

00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:39.079
steps that they had to do before they could go

00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:42.099
for it, or say connections spiritually more than

00:58:42.099 --> 00:58:44.460
physically that they had to do. Oh yeah, and

00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:47.039
as Charlotte Hedden, hence Diana Jonsson actually

00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:50.780
says in an article, people going berserk and

00:58:50.780 --> 00:58:52.940
suddenly charging out of the shield wall will

00:58:52.940 --> 00:58:55.719
actually be counterproductive because it creates

00:58:55.719 --> 00:59:00.599
gaps in the shield wall. So that kind of spontaneous

00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:06.440
berserking would be to the detriment of warfare

00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:10.639
in this period and therefore would likely be

00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:13.719
frowned on. But I shall also add there that there

00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:17.880
are examples of people going berserk in the sagas

00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.619
but they are not people who are described as

00:59:20.619 --> 00:59:26.619
berserkir. So we see it at Vinheather in Egil's

00:59:26.619 --> 00:59:30.449
saga where Egil's brother throws his shield behind

00:59:30.449 --> 00:59:32.909
him, either onto his back or just behind him,

00:59:33.349 --> 00:59:36.530
and charges into the enemy, striking out on both

00:59:36.530 --> 00:59:39.969
sides so no one could stand against him. And

00:59:39.969 --> 00:59:46.550
that is mirrored in Herald's Saga, where at the

00:59:46.550 --> 00:59:49.650
Battle of Stanford Bridge, where Harold Hadrather

00:59:49.650 --> 00:59:53.250
does exactly the same. Really? I never knew that.

00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:56.989
That's interesting. So you actually have Berserker

00:59:56.989 --> 00:59:59.989
episodes. You also find it in Das Nibelungenliedhagen

00:59:59.989 --> 01:00:03.030
does it at one point when they're besieged in

01:00:03.030 --> 01:00:05.050
the hall towards the end before they all die

01:00:05.050 --> 01:00:11.030
horribly. So, you know, it's more than just a

01:00:11.030 --> 01:00:15.670
Scandinavian trope that. But those figures are

01:00:15.670 --> 01:00:18.769
never associated specifically with the word Berserk.

01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:23.260
So it suggests that this is a different literary

01:00:23.260 --> 01:00:27.860
trope being used. And the fact that it exists

01:00:27.860 --> 01:00:30.360
in Middle High German as well suggests that it's

01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:34.420
more ubiquitous than purely Scandinavian. So

01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:39.920
it's not Viking berserkers as such. So, yeah.

01:00:41.019 --> 01:00:43.380
And I suppose the other thing that's interesting

01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:47.340
is that apart from precisely two references from

01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:52.019
the 14th century, Basakia do not appear after

01:00:52.019 --> 01:00:57.760
about pretty much after the year 900 in the literature,

01:00:57.940 --> 01:01:02.179
roughly speaking. So they are not part of the

01:01:02.179 --> 01:01:07.719
king's sagas at the time of Harold Hadrada, for

01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:10.900
example. So when people talk about a berserker

01:01:10.900 --> 01:01:13.840
holding the bridge, that's basically romantic

01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:22.730
embellishment of what was going on. So yeah,

01:01:23.090 --> 01:01:26.829
they don't really exist, but I do know of two

01:01:26.829 --> 01:01:29.690
actual historically attested Basakia that's not

01:01:29.690 --> 01:01:35.889
part of the literature. Both from the mid -14th

01:01:35.889 --> 01:01:39.889
century. One of them is in the will of a monk

01:01:39.889 --> 01:01:43.190
in Oslo who says he wants to be buried in St.

01:01:43.369 --> 01:01:46.510
Olavar's church in Oslo next to his kingman,

01:01:46.650 --> 01:01:52.829
Ogman Basak. He is buried in the church, in a

01:01:52.829 --> 01:01:57.090
Christian context, and he has the title Master,

01:01:57.170 --> 01:02:00.829
which means he's clerical. He's not, you know,

01:02:00.909 --> 01:02:04.849
so he's actually part of the church. No idea

01:02:04.849 --> 01:02:11.429
why he has the nickname Barsak, but Bugman Barsak

01:02:11.429 --> 01:02:13.929
is buried in St. Olavath Church in Oslo, unless

01:02:13.929 --> 01:02:16.400
they've removed the bones from there now. So

01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:18.679
you can stand on the spot roughly where he's

01:02:18.679 --> 01:02:22.019
buried, if you can see there. And then you have

01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:24.699
another one, Thore, who's busy paying tithes

01:02:24.699 --> 01:02:28.239
to the church on behalf of his wife and stepdaughter.

01:02:28.820 --> 01:02:31.480
And that's recorded in a document from the mid

01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:37.519
-14th century as well. Interesting. I never thought

01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:39.300
to look at it from a language point of view,

01:02:40.300 --> 01:02:43.159
certainly considering I'm an English degree student.

01:02:44.680 --> 01:02:46.599
or graduate, I should say, more than a student.

01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.719
It certainly makes a lot of sense to look at

01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:54.980
how language has shaped and evolved and changed

01:02:54.980 --> 01:02:59.179
that understanding. Gosh. Oh yeah, and has been

01:02:59.179 --> 01:03:02.079
shaped by the post -medieval research as well.

01:03:02.659 --> 01:03:05.139
All our perceptions about Prosedkier actually

01:03:05.139 --> 01:03:08.059
stem from starting with Stefan Stefanius in the

01:03:08.059 --> 01:03:12.320
mid -17th century, and then further research

01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:15.409
going on from there. So he said they were possessed

01:03:15.409 --> 01:03:18.690
by black magic and Odin was a black was it they

01:03:18.690 --> 01:03:21.030
were possessed by demons summoned by Odin as

01:03:21.030 --> 01:03:25.610
the black magician and Then everybody else from

01:03:25.610 --> 01:03:28.309
then has gone. Oh, yeah. Okay Well, that's obviously

01:03:28.309 --> 01:03:30.190
not right because we're not religious now because

01:03:30.190 --> 01:03:32.869
this is the age of reason So we're gonna look

01:03:32.869 --> 01:03:37.949
at Siberian mushroom eight taking practice Which

01:03:37.949 --> 01:03:44.199
is a whole nother thing and then every generation

01:03:44.199 --> 01:03:47.340
revises the perspective on what Berserker were

01:03:47.340 --> 01:03:50.860
based on, whatever the latest scientific theories

01:03:50.860 --> 01:03:55.300
are. So the most recent stuff is all PTSD. These

01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:58.719
were people with PTSD, so they just popped because

01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:04.199
of that, which all stems from, I mean, it starts

01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:06.900
with shell shock in the First World War and then...

01:04:06.760 --> 01:04:10.340
developed to PTSD after Vietnam where people

01:04:10.340 --> 01:04:13.719
actually did go berserk and threw off their flak

01:04:13.719 --> 01:04:17.559
jackets and attacked and they have interviews

01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:20.300
with these people but that doesn't make them

01:04:20.300 --> 01:04:25.460
berserkers, which is a different thing entirely.

01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:32.059
So people keep looking at that past reality from

01:04:32.059 --> 01:04:37.809
a lens of the present and very few people actually

01:04:37.809 --> 01:04:40.230
go back and analyze the medieval literature as

01:04:40.230 --> 01:04:46.389
literature as well to understand it. So yeah.

01:04:46.949 --> 01:04:48.829
Yeah, I mean, certainly talking to it's made

01:04:48.829 --> 01:04:52.389
me realize that kind of like as well as the conception

01:04:52.389 --> 01:04:55.889
of them having kind of like kind of like crazed

01:04:55.889 --> 01:04:58.789
mindsets going into a frenzy, whether it's mushroom

01:04:58.789 --> 01:05:00.650
induced or ritual induced, also kind of like

01:05:00.969 --> 01:05:03.670
the bearskin, the furs that are kind of like

01:05:03.670 --> 01:05:06.530
having been very vulnerable but yet fiercely

01:05:06.530 --> 01:05:08.769
determined to throw themselves into dangerous

01:05:08.769 --> 01:05:11.829
situations. The other examples you mentioned

01:05:11.829 --> 01:05:13.750
show that there are berserkers that also were

01:05:13.750 --> 01:05:16.130
kind of like well equipped, well armed, it wasn't

01:05:16.130 --> 01:05:18.530
just kind of like throwing everything off and

01:05:18.530 --> 01:05:22.010
going to the will of the gods. They did it in

01:05:22.010 --> 01:05:24.030
the typical fashion of going into battle, that

01:05:24.030 --> 01:05:25.710
you would put armour on and have a shield and

01:05:25.710 --> 01:05:28.300
have a weapon of some description. Yeah yeah

01:05:28.300 --> 01:05:30.260
I mean I have wondered if they wore bearskins

01:05:30.260 --> 01:05:34.199
actually as armor because a bearskin is quite

01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:37.420
hard to cut with a sword which would also fit

01:05:37.420 --> 01:05:42.840
with the idea that you couldn't actually cut

01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:44.920
them so you had to beat them to death with a

01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:48.159
blunt object which occurs in the Sargas because

01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:51.059
a bearskin again would not protect you very well

01:05:51.059 --> 01:05:55.679
from massive trauma damage. If somebody clobbers

01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:58.280
you hard with a big heavy mallet or what have

01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:02.480
you, you'll still feel that. So I've wondered

01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:05.559
about that, but that's really even more speculative

01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:10.860
than I'm willing to go to. And it has been called

01:06:10.860 --> 01:06:14.260
into question on the grounds that a bearskin

01:06:14.260 --> 01:06:17.099
would be too heavy to wear. But then again, were

01:06:17.099 --> 01:06:19.579
they wearing a whole bearskin? They weren't stupid

01:06:19.579 --> 01:06:22.400
either. So they could have tailored these things

01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:24.780
to make their armor. And there is a line in one

01:06:24.780 --> 01:06:26.780
saga which basically says that they had wolf

01:06:26.780 --> 01:06:33.820
skins for armor. Specifically for armor. Wearing

01:06:33.820 --> 01:06:37.099
a heavy leather jacket will protect you from

01:06:37.099 --> 01:06:43.849
a lot of cutting damage in theory. And in terms

01:06:43.849 --> 01:06:46.150
of how I've always envisaged them as warriors,

01:06:46.369 --> 01:06:48.750
I always envisage them as being something like

01:06:48.750 --> 01:06:51.449
the parachute regiment or the French foreign

01:06:51.449 --> 01:06:55.969
legion, applying massive amounts of highly controlled

01:06:55.969 --> 01:07:00.590
aggression to the situation and controlling it

01:07:00.590 --> 01:07:03.690
that way with absolute confidence in their own

01:07:03.690 --> 01:07:06.130
abilities because they are the elite warriors,

01:07:07.190 --> 01:07:10.570
which again is likely means that they were probably

01:07:10.570 --> 01:07:13.650
descended from Berserkir as well because the

01:07:13.650 --> 01:07:16.010
people who were in that position would get the

01:07:16.010 --> 01:07:18.070
best food and be the biggest and the strongest

01:07:18.070 --> 01:07:22.070
and brought up to it. And the question then is

01:07:22.070 --> 01:07:26.210
how far back does the tradition go? When does

01:07:26.210 --> 01:07:30.269
the word actually emerge? You know, because if

01:07:30.269 --> 01:07:33.469
it relates to bears, then Bjarne is a Viking

01:07:33.469 --> 01:07:37.190
age word, which means that an earlier Beran,

01:07:37.190 --> 01:07:40.650
meaning bear, has to be pre -Viking age, so they

01:07:40.650 --> 01:07:42.590
would have been part of that pre -Viking age

01:07:42.590 --> 01:07:51.130
society. So yeah, there's a lot going on. There's

01:07:51.130 --> 01:07:58.429
a lot we cannot know. But again, as I will constantly

01:07:58.429 --> 01:08:01.150
say, you have to look at the medieval sources,

01:08:01.210 --> 01:08:05.590
not the post -medieval analysis. be any medieval

01:08:05.590 --> 01:08:08.809
sources on their own basis, on their own premise.

01:08:11.230 --> 01:08:18.609
So yeah, that's Berserker's in a nutshell. Well,

01:08:18.689 --> 01:08:20.949
certainly kind of like, as you say, all the gaps

01:08:20.949 --> 01:08:24.869
in knowledge that we don't have because of the

01:08:24.869 --> 01:08:27.189
way the sagas, as you say, were recorded out

01:08:27.189 --> 01:08:29.810
of their time by people out of that time, not

01:08:29.810 --> 01:08:32.649
witnessing or understanding what they were recording.

01:08:33.189 --> 01:08:37.369
fully kind of like in an authentic sense. It's

01:08:37.369 --> 01:08:39.829
certainly allowed as we discussed kind of like

01:08:39.829 --> 01:08:41.930
with Vikings and indeed with Valkyries kind of

01:08:41.930 --> 01:08:44.329
like creative interpretation, creative license

01:08:44.329 --> 01:08:47.130
to any flourish because there's no one around

01:08:47.130 --> 01:08:49.510
today that could say no that wasn't true that

01:08:49.510 --> 01:08:52.050
didn't happen. We can say on some things that

01:08:52.050 --> 01:08:54.109
they didn't happen or more likely that they didn't

01:08:54.109 --> 01:08:57.470
happen but it's always to a degree we cannot

01:08:57.470 --> 01:09:01.210
be a hundred percent accurate or definite unfortunately.

01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:04.300
And the sources we're working with are more like

01:09:04.300 --> 01:09:07.319
historical fiction than history as well, which

01:09:07.319 --> 01:09:12.380
is the other issue. A lot of these sources, people

01:09:12.380 --> 01:09:17.220
originally thought of them as being actual descriptions

01:09:17.220 --> 01:09:20.699
of the past, and a lot of people still approach

01:09:20.699 --> 01:09:23.199
them in that way, read them in that way, but

01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:25.579
they're actually much more like historical fiction.

01:09:26.899 --> 01:09:30.520
It's a bit like analyzing the Viking Age by reading

01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:36.119
Charles Christian's books or, you know. I love

01:09:36.119 --> 01:09:39.199
those books, but they're not history, they're

01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:43.659
historical fiction. And even though the Icelanders

01:09:43.659 --> 01:09:45.760
who wrote these things down appear to have thought

01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:49.579
of what they were writing down as history, we

01:09:49.579 --> 01:09:53.920
need to understand that it isn't really, it's

01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:59.449
not reportage. No, no and I think that can stem

01:09:59.449 --> 01:10:02.109
a lot to kind of like even the mythology kind

01:10:02.109 --> 01:10:04.930
of side of things because I often think having

01:10:04.930 --> 01:10:07.590
dived so deep into kind of like the saga of the

01:10:07.590 --> 01:10:11.250
ballsongs and the poetic edger and Brynhild and

01:10:11.250 --> 01:10:13.930
Sigurd Strathnir's Bane kind of like storytelling

01:10:13.930 --> 01:10:16.510
I think I like to think that when they were already

01:10:16.510 --> 01:10:18.869
told by different people in different regions

01:10:18.869 --> 01:10:21.470
of Scandinavia or even in Iceland because of

01:10:21.470 --> 01:10:24.470
course even the Nibelungliad which was more Germanic

01:10:24.560 --> 01:10:27.699
than Scandinavian, that even the skulls would

01:10:27.699 --> 01:10:29.899
have twisted and changed things depending what

01:10:29.899 --> 01:10:32.079
audience they were telling to, kind of like the

01:10:32.079 --> 01:10:35.800
time, kind of like because storytelling is so

01:10:35.800 --> 01:10:37.560
creative, it's so free, it's not rigid, it's

01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:40.079
not set, even kind of like with the invention

01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:42.779
of the printing press, we still have 101 different

01:10:42.779 --> 01:10:46.439
types of Vikings and 101 different authors and

01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:49.439
equally berserkers. uh included in that spectrum

01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:52.340
of interpretation there'll be a core idea and

01:10:52.340 --> 01:10:54.420
it will have just evolved and got a spectrum

01:10:54.420 --> 01:10:57.739
of things so the other thing i'm going to throw

01:10:57.739 --> 01:11:01.359
out there then is also you may have manifested

01:11:01.359 --> 01:11:04.420
differently in different parts of scandinavia

01:11:04.420 --> 01:11:11.460
so again um you know what we're seeing is what's

01:11:11.460 --> 01:11:16.760
been codified in iceland but it's possible that

01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:24.520
a Eastern Swedish bassadka would have performed

01:11:24.520 --> 01:11:28.800
differently from a Western Norwegian one, for

01:11:28.800 --> 01:11:33.859
example. So there's that. And the other thing

01:11:33.859 --> 01:11:36.319
to add to it is, of course, the manuscript traditions

01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:39.500
show that the sagas were written down in multiple

01:11:39.500 --> 01:11:43.680
variants as well. There are differences between

01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:46.739
them. So again, you've got different stories

01:11:46.739 --> 01:11:49.260
cropping up. So when we read a translation, that

01:11:49.260 --> 01:11:53.819
is not the saga. It is a saga translated and

01:11:53.819 --> 01:11:57.159
interpreted by someone. When I work with an Old

01:11:57.159 --> 01:12:00.239
Norse text, more often than not, it's an edition,

01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.539
which is a compilation of various manuscripts

01:12:03.539 --> 01:12:06.420
because there are gaps in one manuscript because

01:12:06.420 --> 01:12:10.840
mysait it or whatever. that we've filled in the

01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:13.579
gap from a different manuscript but we can't

01:12:13.579 --> 01:12:16.779
guarantee that what existed on that page that's

01:12:16.779 --> 01:12:20.439
disappeared is what we've actually substituted

01:12:20.439 --> 01:12:27.119
it with but we've produced a story. Yes, we humans

01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:29.000
love to find patterns and things and when we

01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:33.619
can't fill in a pattern we fill in the gap. That's

01:12:33.619 --> 01:12:38.140
it and that's what we've done. And that is why

01:12:38.140 --> 01:12:40.779
such books exist in multiple variants still.

01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:45.119
Well I think kind of, I think a lot of people

01:12:45.119 --> 01:12:47.119
would find this book really interesting and I

01:12:47.119 --> 01:12:49.819
will when I eventually have the time and opportunity

01:12:49.819 --> 01:12:52.020
to read it but it is here, I have it in my hands

01:12:52.020 --> 01:12:54.939
on my bookshelf so you know I will do at some

01:12:54.939 --> 01:12:58.350
point. It's been absolutely fascinating talking

01:12:58.350 --> 01:13:01.829
to you about all of this Rory and of course I

01:13:01.829 --> 01:13:04.050
wish you luck in your current position at Stavanger

01:13:04.050 --> 01:13:06.750
and all the fun things that you're doing there

01:13:06.750 --> 01:13:09.890
and hopefully one day we'll get you back on again

01:13:09.890 --> 01:13:14.029
soon. Yep, thank you, thank you for giving me

01:13:14.029 --> 01:13:18.909
a soapbox. It's been really good, I've really

01:13:18.909 --> 01:13:20.989
enjoyed it, it's been really insightful for me

01:13:20.989 --> 01:13:22.789
personally and I hope our viewers and listeners

01:13:22.789 --> 01:13:26.779
have. enjoyed learning more about where Berserkers

01:13:26.779 --> 01:13:30.640
and Berserkers are coming from and have a change

01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:34.439
of perception themselves. Yep, we'll just think

01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:37.619
about how they approach the sources. That's the

01:13:37.619 --> 01:13:42.020
other thing. But yeah, thank you. Thank you very

01:13:42.020 --> 01:14:03.979
much. Okay. Thank you very much for listening

01:14:03.979 --> 01:14:07.420
to this episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions

01:14:07.420 --> 01:14:10.659
between my special guests and myself. Please

01:14:10.659 --> 01:14:13.380
do check out the episode blurb for links to their

01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:16.279
works and websites. If you liked this episode

01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:19.079
let me know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me

01:14:19.079 --> 01:14:21.199
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01:14:21.680 --> 01:14:24.899
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