WEBVTT

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Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,

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otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am

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a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the

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history, culture and mythology of the Viking

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Age and I have been on an endless quest for more

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ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North

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with those who have been inspired by Viking Age

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history and North mythology in their creative

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works or those who have studied the sagas and

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archaeology and review. how such subjects are

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being presented to modern audiences today. If

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you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla

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and I hope you stay for the conversation. Hello

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everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast, and

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I'm delighted to say today is a special day for

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two very exciting reasons. One, we have a return

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guest. That's right, he didn't get in for the

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meet in Valhalla last time, so he's come back

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for a second round. And I'm delighted to welcome

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Joshua Gilligan back to the virtual hall. I beg

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you, please have a seat. I think you're very

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welcome. I'm so glad to have you back because

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we are here to talk about something very, very

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exciting. And I've been following it on your

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various socials and platforms for a while, which

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is a new board game. Well, say board game, card

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game, I should say. You've got coming out coal

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holes with Valhalla and it's connected to the

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wonderful logo on your t -shirt, Little Hammer

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Games, which you are now deeply involved with

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as kind of like a creative in the sphere of Nordic

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stuff. So I guess we should begin with kind of

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like as we talked to you it was about all thingy

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the card game and the crescent and the northern

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star and of course the gatewatch trilogy to be

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hopefully you're sort of waiting eagerly for

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the third book um which i whole highly recommend

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our viewers go back and listen to that episode

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and buy all those wonderful things um but now

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you're in little hammer games fully and absolutely

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embodied in it so tell us about that Yeah, thanks,

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Becky. Well, so glad to be back on, and I will

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take every chance I can to nerd out about biking

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stuff, and there's none better than you here

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in your hall, and so yeah, yeah, very glad to

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be back. Little Hammer Games. So Little Hammer

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Games is sort of the imprint of some of my...

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game design stuff. So I published, as you mentioned

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before, All Thingy Won't Arise, which is a card

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game set in Viking Age Iceland. And so I was

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sort of the designer on that one. That was my

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design credit. And it's listed on the boxes in

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association with Little Hunter games, but I wasn't

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the publisher. I was just the design. So we worked

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back and forth. They were great to work with.

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They're a massive publisher. They do all sorts

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of things, magazines and board games and stuff

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like that. This new game, Halls of Asgard, is

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a foray into taking on the role of a publisher,

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too. So I'm kind of doing everything. I designed

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the game. I worked really closely with the artist,

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and you would recognize her artwork right away.

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It's very distinctive. We'll have to sing her

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praises a bit later. But essentially, yes, Little

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Hammer Games is about to launch with this new

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project, Halls of Asgard, which is a board game

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that is firmly set within mythology, which is

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my personal favorite area of Viking history and

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myth. So I love the historical stuff. It was

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really neat to kind of work with the historically

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-based game, which then spawned the expansion

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and the anthology that we had also chatted about.

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But this is a new project, and it's firmly set

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within the Norse myths. So yeah, that's Little

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Hammer Games. And things are about to launch.

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We'll see how the Kickstarter goes. But I'm hopeful

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that we can get this project off the ground,

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and that will lead to many more Viking things.

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Wonderful. Well, to whet the appetite of our

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listeners and viewers, depending on what platform

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you're listening or joining us into our virtual

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hall, I will read to you currently the blurb

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of the Halls of Asgard game and then I'll give

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you the exciting news, which is it's going live

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imminently. So, the Halls of Asgard is a semi

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-cooperative social strategy game for three to

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six players. About 25 minutes with absolutely

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stunning hand -painted art by the celebrated

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Norse mythology artist, and I did recognize Helena

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Roosevelt because she did the covers for your

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Gatewatch duology. Looking in on the later side,

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it's a great starter for those new to board games

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with an easy setup, a simple mechanic that can

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generate surprisingly intricate cooperative strategies

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and guaranteed memorable times. Love that line.

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The semi -quasperative aspect lends itself to

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a delightful tension between defeating Pela,

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the goddess of the North Underworld, and outdoing

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your fellow Asgardian gods. So, dear viewers

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and listeners, each player takes on the role

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of a god. You can have Odin, Thor, Rhea, Kim

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Dal, Idun, or Loki. I salute you for putting

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in the goddesses there, sir. Well done. With

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two unique powers and one unique curse. Interesting.

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Gazing down at the mortals passing through the

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life stages, either child, warrior, or elder

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on the Midgard board. They use their powers to

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claim heroes that join them in their hall in

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preparation for Ragnarok. And along the way,

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Hela claims mortals of the Midgard board and

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gains all those who die without honor or glory.

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of old age. A unique clan mechanic and differing

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moral values of 0, 1, or 2 adds an extra element

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of strategy as gods collect their heroes. If

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one of the gods can defeat Hela through the strength

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of their gathered warriors, the gods win. Hurrah.

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However, if Hela ends up with a higher strength

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score, all players lose as Ragnarok sets the

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nine realms aflame. Dun, dun, dun. And that Kickstarter,

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guys, is now live. So I will be going. after

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this recording drops, and I'll be putting my

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pennies worth it, because I would like a game.

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I don't know when I'll play it or who I'll play

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it with, but I would like coffee. The artwork

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is gorgeous. And I have a major regret now, Becky,

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that we just throw that introduction, that I

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didn't get you to do my Kickstarter video. You

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should have scripted that. You should have been

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the narrator for my script. It would have been

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like, oh, yeah, come on through the door here.

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That's great. It's cinematic. Very kind of you,

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sir. Yeah, so that's a really nice little summary

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capture of the game, and I'm happy to start with

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whatever you want to. We can talk about the game

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mechanics, how the game works, or we could get

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into the juicy mythological stuff. What do you

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want to get going with? Well, I always like to

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start at the beginning, like the beginning of

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the creation myth. So what is the creation myth

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for you for this game? Where did the idea first

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pop into your head that you're going to have?

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Gods vs. Hell and numbers of warriors involved.

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This began a long time ago. I actually just started

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developing this game in 2016, which is almost

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10 years ago, and it sort of developed in spurts

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and stages, and it was actually the very first

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game I ever started working on. I designed other

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games after this game that were published before

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it. So it's interesting, the sequence of published

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games for me is not going to be the same as like

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when they were originally thought of or designed.

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But I really love this idea and the myths and

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inviting culture of like your career or like

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your fate. And so the original game was going

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to be something where there's these Viking heroes

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kind of traveling through the world, and then

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the gods were sort of looking down on them from

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the top, that's going to be the players, and

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sort of intervening to tweak their fate to push

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them in one direction or another. And so that

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was sort of the original concept of the game.

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The original game was actually called Weirds,

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like W -Y -R -D -F. And it was a neat concept,

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but as it started to evolve and develop, I really

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started to lean more into the... The asgard side

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of things like like the gods and their powers

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and making it more about the gods than about

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the heroes The heroes still play a central role.

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That's the central scoring mechanism in the game

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But the original focus had kind of been on the

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warriors and their story and how they go through

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these epic things they do, with the gods kind

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of adding a little bit here and there. And now

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the final version of the game, Halls of Asgard,

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is very much you take the role of a god and you

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are embodying that god and you are looking down

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at Midgard and trying to collect warriors in

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your hall. And so, yeah, so it went through several

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phases of development. I started playtesting

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it. I think the first playtest was back in 2016

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around Edmondson, back when I lived in Edmondson,

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which is a city in the prairies here in Canada.

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Since then it's been all over the place. I've

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taken it to conventions and board game cafes

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and so many people have had a chance to give

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some feedback on the game and put some things

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into it. So it's really exciting that it's finally

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kind of come to fruition. I think sometimes you

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know those books as well, but you read a book

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and it's polished and it's finished and it's

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beautiful and there's the whole story just beautifully

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laid out for you. But that wasn't the creation

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process for most of these things. They're often

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quite messy. what you originally think it's going

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to be is not always what it ends up being and

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you're surprised sometimes and you're frustrated

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other times but the the struggle and the glory

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you know it all comes together and there it is.

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Wow I mean it kind of boggles my mind how anyone

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invented D &D let alone any other board game.

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All the rules come into that because like we

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still debate in our family playstation I just

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need to start on zero or do you start on one?

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So it's kind of like how did you find then kind

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of like obviously the I guess what you call the

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test play experience like where you do take it

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to conventions and to workshops and and get the

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feedback did you get some good feedback from

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those who maybe didn't have much connection with

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Norse mythology or knew about gods having or

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goddesses having other halls because there is

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evidence there in the sagas and poetics somewhere

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because I do remember reading about someone talking

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about all the other halls that the gods have,

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not just Odin's, which everyone of course knows

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of. You make a really good point. You're right,

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there is mention of other halls. In fact, every

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god in Asgard is sort of imagined has a hall.

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We might take a guess that this was... bit of

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a reflection of Viking society, right, where

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the powerful individuals would have their own

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hall and they would host events and it was this

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big deal and that was sort of a sign of their

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power authority. And so in Grimnest Mall, there

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is a whole segment where Odin is been tortured

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by this human king placed between two fires for

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eight days. All sorts of fun things happen in

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the Norse myths, but he decides it's a great

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time to start reciting all of the different halls

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of the gods. And in that, that's actually one

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of the segments. really heavily on, because a

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lot of the gods we don't know a ton about. And

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I really wanted to draw forward. Obviously, you

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got to have Odin, you got to have Thor, just

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draw forward some of the gods that might be lesser

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known to folks that are not as nerdy and deep

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into the Norse messes maybe you and I are. So

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with board games, same with my Althingi game

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that you're really kind of drawing on two crowds.

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There's like the board game crowd, and then there's

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the Viking history crowd for Althingi. And the

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meeting of those two crowds is kind of where

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that project came to be. And so it'll be very

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similar here. There's like the board game crowd.

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People are coming at this because they love board

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games. And then there'll be people coming at

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it because they love like the Norse myths and

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the Viking history aspect of it. So both of those

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elements are really important in the development.

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But the fundamental concept behind it is this

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idea that And if you've watched Vikings history

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TV show, if you've read anything Vikings, you

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probably know when like when you die a glorious

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death, you go to Valhalla, right? That's sort

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of what never. But if you dig into the myths,

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there is actually a line that specifically states

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that half of the warriors also go to Freyja's

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Hall, which is Suspended. And I got into some

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arguments with people these playtesting sessions

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saying that Freyja lives in Valhalla. And these

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are exactly the kind of discussions that I love

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nerding out of my book. Valhalla is technically

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a valley in which sides and rules over it, but

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her whole is called Cispermere and so halls of

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Asgard. identify the hall of each god. And so

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I've kind of played with that idea in that not

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all the warriors go to Vaal Hall, but that the

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warriors, according to the myths, go to both

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Freya and Odin's Hall, that maybe all the gods

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are trying to acquire warriors like Odin so that

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they can face Hela and all the horrors of Ragnarok.

00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:12.620
And so that's sort of the basis of the game,

00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:15.360
is that each of the gods is sitting in their

00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.200
hall and they're looking down in the mortal realm

00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:18.820
and they're kind of picking and claiming heroes

00:12:18.820 --> 00:12:21.059
off the board at different life stages to build

00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:23.750
up their own power. One thing about this game

00:12:23.750 --> 00:12:26.149
from a board game playing perspective is there's

00:12:26.149 --> 00:12:28.269
a new type of game that's come up. I wouldn't

00:12:28.269 --> 00:12:31.049
say it hasn't existed for a long time, but it's

00:12:31.049 --> 00:12:32.990
become more popular as a cooperative style game.

00:12:33.389 --> 00:12:35.590
And so Pandemic was the first really popular

00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:37.570
cooperative style games where you're actually

00:12:37.570 --> 00:12:40.330
working together as a team to accomplish something

00:12:40.330 --> 00:12:42.389
rather than against each other, like in Risk

00:12:42.389 --> 00:12:45.269
or Monopoly or some classic board games. This

00:12:45.269 --> 00:12:47.110
game is a semi -cooperative and actually blends

00:12:47.110 --> 00:12:50.009
elements of both the cooperative and the competitive.

00:12:51.019 --> 00:12:52.759
games that you might have played. So you've got

00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.059
this cooperative objective of trying to defeat

00:12:55.059 --> 00:12:57.299
Hella. Because Hella, and I've just gotten nerd

00:12:57.299 --> 00:12:59.559
out here and show a little bit of our work from

00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:03.120
Hella. There's our Hella. So she's causing all

00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.299
sorts of chaos and destruction and Midgard. And

00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:08.860
so you're trying to hold her back. She's gaining

00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:12.240
power. She takes mortals and steals them off

00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:15.960
of the main board away from the gods. But you

00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.899
are also a Norse god. Pretty proud. And so here's

00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:23.320
Thor here. And you're trying to be the one who's

00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:24.679
going to defeat Hela. So you're working together

00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:26.720
to defeat Hela, but you really want to be the

00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:28.840
hero that Sagas will be written about at the

00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:30.879
end of the day. And so there's this really interesting

00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:32.799
tension between working together to make sure

00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:34.879
that Hela doesn't get tokens off the board, but

00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:39.419
then also your divine wiles to set things up

00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:42.559
so that you get the most heroes and the most

00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:46.370
powerful heroes by the end of the game. Now of

00:13:46.370 --> 00:13:48.570
course kind of like I'm gonna ask probably a

00:13:48.570 --> 00:13:49.990
more mechanical question now because I'm curious

00:13:49.990 --> 00:13:53.190
kind of like how many turns if it is based on

00:13:53.190 --> 00:13:56.970
a turns kind of like strategy is kind of like

00:13:56.970 --> 00:13:59.710
will the game revolve wrap up in because of course

00:13:59.710 --> 00:14:01.750
I'm thinking to very simple board games that

00:14:01.750 --> 00:14:05.250
I play with my daughter Naomi and I know we've

00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:07.350
got one called Rollosaurus and she loves to win

00:14:07.350 --> 00:14:09.289
that one because she gets a little golden dinosaur

00:14:09.289 --> 00:14:12.779
card Yes, yes. It's making me think kind of like,

00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.159
how do you signal Ragnarok? How do you decide

00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.100
which God has won and do they get anything out

00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.700
of it besides the glorious title? Absolutely.

00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:22.259
And so the whole game is really interesting.

00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:23.659
So here's our Midgard board. I'm going to try

00:14:23.659 --> 00:14:25.080
to hold things up here a little bit. Here's our

00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:26.820
Midgard board. And Midgard, of course, is like

00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:29.399
Earth, where we live. It's the realm of the mortals.

00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:31.700
And we've got three phases, the child, the warrior,

00:14:31.779 --> 00:14:33.899
and the elder phase. And there's these tokens,

00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:37.039
our hero tokens. Oh, wow. Midgard. So you're

00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.240
literally watching the hero sort of progress

00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.720
through Midgard. And there's a pool of tokens.

00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.000
Once that pool of tokens has moved through Midgard,

00:14:44.659 --> 00:14:47.840
the game's over. The number is off. Yeah, it'll

00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:49.159
depend on the number of players. It plays three

00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:51.320
to six players, and so you can actually play

00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:52.740
up to six players, which is nice because a lot

00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:56.120
of board games only play four max. But the number

00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.120
of rounds will depend on how many players. However,

00:14:59.700 --> 00:15:01.279
there'll be more rounds than a three player game,

00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.059
but it'll go faster because there's three players.

00:15:03.340 --> 00:15:05.100
And there will be longer rounds than a six player

00:15:05.100 --> 00:15:07.940
game, but it'll have a similar play time because

00:15:07.940 --> 00:15:11.009
there'll be fewer. the same number of tokens

00:15:11.009 --> 00:15:13.590
are going through, right? And so our hero tokens

00:15:13.590 --> 00:15:15.129
all come from different clans and so once again,

00:15:15.129 --> 00:15:16.889
we've got some beautiful artwork here. We've

00:15:16.889 --> 00:15:19.970
got the horse clan here, we've got the bear clan,

00:15:19.970 --> 00:15:23.429
and we've got the raven clan. Oh, ravens, of

00:15:23.429 --> 00:15:25.149
course. Have to have a raven with your sword.

00:15:26.129 --> 00:15:28.509
That's right. And Hela's done such a great job.

00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:31.289
She's got such a great background in design styles

00:15:31.289 --> 00:15:33.289
and such. She's got them with all the different

00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:36.370
kind of Norse motifs. But on the back, all the

00:15:36.370 --> 00:15:38.190
warriors also have values. So a standard warrior

00:15:38.190 --> 00:15:42.919
has a value of one. Yeah. And a heroic warrior

00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:46.100
has a value of two. And of course, not everybody's

00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:48.200
a hero. There are also heroes that on the back

00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:50.720
have a value of zero. They are cowards. And so

00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.320
you might unwittingly pick up an hour by accident.

00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.539
And that is something that you may have to deal

00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.820
with. But all warriors are useful in some way

00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:01.840
because there's also From the mechanical perspective

00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:04.779
a clan bonus if you get three members of the

00:16:04.779 --> 00:16:07.720
same clan in your hall You get an extra set of

00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:09.299
bonus points and so for every set of three you

00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:11.740
get that can increase your final power and score

00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:16.159
so Yeah, I don't mean the mechanical details

00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:17.919
of the game, but that's sort of a nice little

00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.919
overviews like you're a god you've got powers

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.240
you're messing with the mortals trying to pick

00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.139
them up and pull them into your hall building

00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:29.409
up your while everybody else is trying to do

00:16:29.409 --> 00:16:31.850
the same, and then using your powers either cooperatively

00:16:31.850 --> 00:16:34.730
or maybe not always so cooperatively if somebody

00:16:34.730 --> 00:16:36.210
stabbed you in the back or promised they would

00:16:36.210 --> 00:16:37.789
do something you didn't, and that's kind of where

00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:40.769
the fun and the memorable aspect of this game

00:16:40.769 --> 00:16:43.750
comes through. Well, thank you for those glimpsed

00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:47.330
peeks at the actual parts of the game, the substance

00:16:47.330 --> 00:16:49.230
of the game, and if the viewers and listeners,

00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:51.860
as I say, listeners... on audio platforms, come

00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:54.120
over to YouTube. You're missing out on all the

00:16:54.120 --> 00:17:02.220
goodness. I haven't quite branched out too much

00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:04.779
beyond YouTube and visual podcasting, but we're

00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:08.140
happy with the places that we are slowly infiltrating

00:17:08.140 --> 00:17:10.279
and slowly being discovered. It's very slowly,

00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.119
but it's there. Oh, that was what I was going

00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.539
to say. So I want to know more if you dive in.

00:17:18.009 --> 00:17:20.849
very kindly to me and for you listeners about

00:17:20.849 --> 00:17:24.069
the powers and the curses of these gods and goddesses

00:17:24.069 --> 00:17:26.569
because I'm very curious like I can't think of

00:17:26.569 --> 00:17:29.390
a curse for Freya besides as being too beautiful.

00:17:29.990 --> 00:17:32.630
Oh yeah, not very the curse that you must bear

00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:35.490
but you know so this was this is one of the funnest

00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:38.250
parts of the game for me because once again from

00:17:38.250 --> 00:17:41.779
the game player's perspective it's a semi -cooperative

00:17:41.779 --> 00:17:45.960
game, that's an interesting fact. It's also asymmetric,

00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.279
which means that every player has different powers.

00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:52.380
In a game like Monopoly, and I use Monopoly only,

00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:54.180
I don't think that's a terrible game, from a

00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:55.480
board game player's perspective, but it's a good

00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:57.480
example, people know it, everybody has the same,

00:17:57.859 --> 00:17:59.539
the only thing that's different in Monopoly is

00:17:59.539 --> 00:18:01.769
their little... you know, characters that are

00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:03.089
moving around the board. Everybody has the same

00:18:03.089 --> 00:18:04.369
abilities, everybody has the same powers, everybody

00:18:04.369 --> 00:18:06.529
has the same objectives. In Halls of Asgard,

00:18:06.549 --> 00:18:08.630
it's asymmetric, so every single god has a unique

00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:11.309
set of powers and a curse, and this is where

00:18:11.309 --> 00:18:14.269
I really got to dig into the myths and make these

00:18:14.269 --> 00:18:17.170
really deep references to each of the different

00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:20.549
characters. I intentionally set it up so that

00:18:20.549 --> 00:18:22.140
you don't... I have to know Norse mythology to

00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:24.319
play this game. You can enjoy this game for just

00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.240
a board game. If you have no background context,

00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.400
you can just say, ooh, what pretty art, you know,

00:18:28.460 --> 00:18:30.339
play it for the mechanic and it's tons of fun.

00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:33.839
But if you are a fan of Norse mythology and I

00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:35.759
have to credit Hello with this too, she added

00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.099
all these extra little elements and layers that

00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:40.519
I was picking out as she was sending me in the

00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.880
draft that are just little tiny hints and nods

00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.099
to different cyber references and things there.

00:18:47.140 --> 00:18:49.779
So I will let you pick a God and we'll dive into

00:18:49.779 --> 00:18:51.769
that one. Which one do you want to do Odin, Thor,

00:18:51.970 --> 00:19:03.049
Freya, Heimdall, Eden, or Loki? So here's Freya.

00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:05.170
Okay. And she's got two powers and she's got

00:19:05.170 --> 00:19:07.190
a curse. All the cards have a similar layout.

00:19:07.250 --> 00:19:09.529
So they'll have the sort of character illustration,

00:19:09.529 --> 00:19:12.109
and then they have their hall with the names,

00:19:12.349 --> 00:19:14.630
the Cess Remnu here, and they have spaces for

00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:17.329
all their tokens. The children and elders are

00:19:17.329 --> 00:19:19.410
kept in one section and the warriors are kept

00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:20.609
in another section because they're actually worth

00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:24.779
more points. in the game I had like token spaces,

00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:27.119
like little circles, but Hela actually worked

00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.519
the token spaces into the artwork. So for all

00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.240
of them, they're like actually an integrated

00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:33.319
part of the artwork. And so we've got two things

00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:36.259
here. I'll see if you can read that one or maybe

00:19:36.259 --> 00:19:40.339
guess what those ones are. The one is, she's

00:19:40.339 --> 00:19:44.480
crying. What does Freya cry? Oh, she cries tears

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.519
of, I want to say gold, but then I want to say

00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.569
anger at the same time. So one of her powers

00:19:49.569 --> 00:19:51.910
is tears of gold. And so Hell has this beautiful

00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:54.329
illustration of Freya just like weeping these

00:19:54.329 --> 00:19:56.410
tears of gold. And what tears of gold allows

00:19:56.410 --> 00:19:58.789
you to do is when you go to claim a war, you

00:19:58.789 --> 00:20:00.670
have to roll the dice. you have to hit a certain

00:20:00.670 --> 00:20:02.849
number in order to claim the hero. Tears of Gold

00:20:02.849 --> 00:20:05.269
allows you to re -roll that dice. And so if you

00:20:05.269 --> 00:20:06.789
roll a low number and you're not happy with it,

00:20:06.990 --> 00:20:09.210
you can use your Tears of Gold power to re -roll

00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:12.009
that roll. Tears of Gold as a reference to the

00:20:12.009 --> 00:20:13.990
mist, this was something that was very commonly

00:20:13.990 --> 00:20:15.910
known about Freya. And if you know anything about

00:20:15.910 --> 00:20:18.490
Freya, this is probably one thing you know. If

00:20:18.490 --> 00:20:19.930
you're into Viking stuff is that she would cry

00:20:19.930 --> 00:20:23.339
Tears of Gold and... there was a lot of kennings

00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:27.359
uh so instead of saying gold in a viking poem

00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.880
they would often say phrase tears and was very

00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:32.480
commonly understood that just meant gold and

00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.359
vikings loved doing this in their poetry these

00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:36.980
little riddles that hinted at the myths um and

00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:38.819
so there's all sorts of other interesting kennings

00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:41.079
and there's double kennings that are like references

00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.259
to references uh but tears of gold is something

00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:46.099
that um you really know now uh you might think

00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:48.410
that our other power has to do with the beautiful

00:20:48.410 --> 00:20:50.470
necklace, bring some in. But I actually took

00:20:50.470 --> 00:20:53.910
it a different direction. I had her second power

00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:56.549
to be Valshamer, which is the Norse word for

00:20:56.549 --> 00:21:01.529
her falcon cloak. And yes. Oh, that detail. Freyja

00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:03.950
has a whole assortment of really awesome, cool

00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:07.750
things in her arsenal, which Loki is always trying

00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:10.410
to, quote unquote, borrow for whatever Loki grew

00:21:10.410 --> 00:21:13.150
up to. And yes. And so Freyja's falcon cloak

00:21:13.150 --> 00:21:16.789
is the other power that she has and there is

00:21:16.789 --> 00:21:19.450
no mechanism in the game for God's exchanging

00:21:19.450 --> 00:21:21.309
heroes like trading them back and forth except

00:21:21.309 --> 00:21:23.150
for this. So Orianna is sort of in charge of

00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:24.710
all the trades because she's got this falcon

00:21:24.710 --> 00:21:26.910
cloak that can allow players to trade. So if

00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:28.490
she wants to trade with somebody that's easy

00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:30.329
they can trade as long as the other person wants

00:21:30.329 --> 00:21:32.529
to they can make that happen but if other people

00:21:32.529 --> 00:21:33.970
want to trade they have to come to Freya saying

00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:36.049
Freya Freya please let us use your falcon cloak

00:21:36.049 --> 00:21:39.710
and say well I'll let you use my falcon cloak.

00:21:40.179 --> 00:21:43.680
such and such and such. So there we go. So those

00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:45.680
are two powers. And once again, they're really,

00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:47.299
from a mechanical standpoint, you don't have

00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:48.940
to understand any of the background story. But

00:21:48.940 --> 00:21:51.339
if you understand the myths, you realize this

00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:53.680
is really cutting into what we know about her

00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.859
and digging into that. and of course the curse

00:21:56.859 --> 00:21:59.799
must have the curse and so her curse is goldless

00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.240
and we know this about Freyja that she loved

00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:06.680
treasures and she loved gold and she does all

00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.539
sorts of things to get more wealth and so her

00:22:10.539 --> 00:22:13.859
curse is that at Ragnarok she must have one member

00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:16.460
of each of the four clans or else she loses points

00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:19.140
at the end of the game and so Other gods are

00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:21.359
just sort of collecting whatever might be convenient,

00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:22.960
still trying to get the set bonuses, still trying

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.299
to get the powerful ones. Freya has this additional

00:22:25.299 --> 00:22:27.079
challenge that she must also collect one member

00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.440
from each of the clans or else pay the penalty.

00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:32.640
So, but that's one example. And like I said,

00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:34.960
we've got a few other references in here. You

00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.220
can see in El's lap, she's petting a cat. We

00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:42.369
know that. Freya was carried around by a chariot

00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:46.849
pulled by cats, and so Hela just has such a deep

00:22:46.849 --> 00:22:49.230
insight into the mist. So much of her work is

00:22:49.230 --> 00:22:51.329
centered on that, that she was just brilliantly

00:22:51.329 --> 00:22:55.170
able to tie in all these amazing little Easter

00:22:55.170 --> 00:22:56.950
eggs for anybody who's into Norse mythology.

00:22:58.410 --> 00:23:00.490
Oh, that's wonderful. I completely forgot about

00:23:00.490 --> 00:23:02.930
the kind of like the feather cloak, and of course,

00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:06.059
as you say, kind of like her lust. episode with

00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:08.759
four dwarfs to get Brisingham and all along.

00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.799
Connection to treasures and all things shiny.

00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.839
All right then let's go to Loki next. Okay fantastic

00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.240
let's do it. Loki is always a crowd favorite

00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:21.799
and I have to warn you this is in the rules as

00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:24.420
well. Loki is the most difficult card to play

00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:26.619
so it's not in the suggested like first time

00:23:26.619 --> 00:23:28.259
playthrough. You're welcome to play obviously

00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:29.819
whatever you wanted to but the first time playthrough

00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:32.619
does not include Loki because Loki and we can

00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:38.559
see him here. handsome fellow is a little bit

00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.700
tricky to operate because you need to know all

00:23:40.700 --> 00:23:43.920
the other God's powers and you need to influence

00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.359
them to let you use their powers on their behalf,

00:23:47.420 --> 00:23:50.680
on their behalf. So for Loki, we've got all sorts

00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:53.839
of little references tied in here. One of them

00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.819
is C, which is... translates to magic, but I've

00:23:57.819 --> 00:23:59.859
translated here as to shapeshifter. And so Loki

00:23:59.859 --> 00:24:04.559
is known for changing forms. And so what a shapeshifter

00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.099
allows him to do is to use another God's power.

00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.220
The catch is though that God has to give him

00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:12.759
permission. If they don't give him permission.

00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:16.380
And so Loki is spending the entire game going

00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:18.240
around saying, oh, Thor, Thor, please let me

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.299
use your hammer. Oh, Freya, Freya, can I use

00:24:20.299 --> 00:24:22.079
your cloak? I promise I'll use it for good and

00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:24.359
not for bad. And so this is a really interesting

00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:28.000
dynamic in the game because you're not really

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.039
able to directly influence things in a way like

00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.339
Thor, who's just very straightforward. He's like,

00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:36.440
add points to the roll or stop another god from

00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.529
doing something. He's just. one stop and it's

00:24:38.529 --> 00:24:40.349
done. With Loki, you're always having to scheme

00:24:40.349 --> 00:24:43.049
in the background and trying to find the alliances

00:24:43.049 --> 00:24:45.970
and find ways to make things work out for you.

00:24:46.430 --> 00:24:49.029
So that's his first power. His second power is

00:24:49.029 --> 00:24:50.950
trickster. Obviously, we know Loki is constantly

00:24:50.950 --> 00:24:52.930
getting himself into and then hopefully out of

00:24:52.930 --> 00:24:57.049
trouble. What Loki can do is if a hero gets claimed

00:24:57.049 --> 00:25:00.730
off the board, Loki can swap that hero for one

00:25:00.730 --> 00:25:03.049
in his hall. He can kind of steal that hero and

00:25:03.049 --> 00:25:05.230
swap it for another one. And so this has to do

00:25:05.230 --> 00:25:08.349
with A, getting strong heroes, and B, with the

00:25:08.349 --> 00:25:09.829
set collection mechanic. That's going to be really

00:25:09.829 --> 00:25:13.029
important because he can sort of influence and

00:25:13.029 --> 00:25:14.730
control that. And he's got to be careful though.

00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.420
Because if he takes somebody's hero, they're

00:25:17.420 --> 00:25:20.640
probably not going to let them use their powers.

00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:22.259
And so he's got this really fine balance, and

00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:25.099
all the characters do, in terms of wanting to

00:25:25.099 --> 00:25:27.640
work together to defeat Hela, but also needing

00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.579
to kind of fulfill their own goals. And then

00:25:30.579 --> 00:25:33.279
his curse, drips of venom, we know that's a reference

00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.700
to Ragnarok. Loki's luck runs out eventually

00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:39.279
and he's in an underground cave. He's bound with

00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.359
the intestines of his own sons and a serpent

00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:45.180
is tied on a rock above him to eternally drip,

00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:47.980
you know, this kind of radioactive poison onto

00:25:47.980 --> 00:25:51.509
his bare flesh. Very pleasant. Anyways, if Loki

00:25:51.509 --> 00:25:54.569
rolls a two, sort of like snake bites, if he

00:25:54.569 --> 00:25:57.430
rolls a two, then no god can intervene to help

00:25:57.430 --> 00:25:59.769
him. He loses his current, he fails his claim.

00:25:59.990 --> 00:26:01.829
Whereas in every other part of the game, if a

00:26:01.829 --> 00:26:03.250
god gets a bad roll, they can always call on

00:26:03.250 --> 00:26:04.769
the other gods to come and help them. But if

00:26:04.769 --> 00:26:10.390
Loki rolls a two, that's his curse. The gameplay

00:26:10.390 --> 00:26:13.049
passes on and he can't get any help. So he's

00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:15.349
looking out there. It's really inspired. I really

00:26:15.349 --> 00:26:16.809
like his work about how he made the two kind

00:26:16.809 --> 00:26:20.549
of like with the two dots on the Kind of like

00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:23.410
a Numicon dice, as we call it in the UK, where

00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:26.750
he's doing dots as numbers. Yes. Yeah, with the

00:26:26.750 --> 00:26:29.559
fangs. I really like that. It's inspiring. And

00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.259
I really want to stress, if any of this sounds

00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:33.019
complicated, there's some really interesting

00:26:33.019 --> 00:26:34.480
things you can do with it, but the game play

00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.220
itself is not extremely complicated. It's very

00:26:37.220 --> 00:26:40.160
approachable. It's quick to learn. The rounds

00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.839
go quickly as well. But if you really get into

00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:44.240
it, you learn the characters and the powers,

00:26:44.259 --> 00:26:46.240
you can have a lot of fun with it. And there

00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.859
can be some really surprisingly intricate strategies.

00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:52.119
There's a few play tests where a roll would happen

00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:54.579
and one god would trigger a power to save the

00:26:54.579 --> 00:26:56.819
roll and another god would intervene to undo

00:26:56.819 --> 00:26:58.259
this thing that just happened and another god

00:26:58.259 --> 00:26:59.769
would and that there would be like six or seven

00:26:59.769 --> 00:27:01.609
powers would get triggered and sort of work all

00:27:01.609 --> 00:27:05.420
together in order to. either have this role succeed

00:27:05.420 --> 00:27:08.859
or not. And there's different levels of the game.

00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:10.940
So the beginner level, Hell is a bit weaker.

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:12.859
In the more advanced version, she's stronger.

00:27:13.180 --> 00:27:15.500
And depending on whether you play the weaker,

00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:17.160
the stronger version, how experienced the players

00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.920
are, the gameplay itself ends up being more cooperative,

00:27:19.940 --> 00:27:21.900
more competitive. And it's really fun for me

00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:24.720
as a designer to see a group of people play a

00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:26.660
once and then play a second time. Because if

00:27:26.660 --> 00:27:28.660
they beat Hell in the first time, they think,

00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:30.700
oh, we're so great. We're so grand. You know,

00:27:30.700 --> 00:27:32.299
we can just work for ourselves. And then they

00:27:32.299 --> 00:27:34.099
get smoked. the second game because they're not

00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:36.559
working together enough. And then vice versa,

00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.599
if they get beaten the first game and they're

00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:40.039
sort of like nipping at each other, you know,

00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:45.000
and, you know, you know, kind of being goofy

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.019
and interrupting people and stuff like that,

00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.940
too. And then not working together in the second

00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:50.579
game, then they're in a panic. Oh, we got to

00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:51.940
beat hell the second time. Let's work together.

00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:54.900
Let's be super cooperative. And so, yeah, just

00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:57.500
I love the story that gets told at the table

00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:00.400
and how people kind of embody the different gods,

00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:03.019
because the powers really do inspire you to act

00:28:03.019 --> 00:28:05.140
a certain way. Right. Like Loki kind of has to

00:28:05.069 --> 00:28:08.309
be a bit skinny and a bit like a bit of a salesman.

00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:11.109
Thor is kind of like staunch. People will call

00:28:11.109 --> 00:28:12.789
on him to use his hammer to boost their role,

00:28:12.890 --> 00:28:14.789
but he also has a power where he can stop other

00:28:14.789 --> 00:28:17.029
gods from using their role. So if Loki's up to

00:28:17.029 --> 00:28:18.769
no good and causing nonsense, Thor can just kind

00:28:18.769 --> 00:28:21.049
of put his fist down and stop him from doing

00:28:21.049 --> 00:28:23.990
what he's trying to do. So yeah, it's really

00:28:23.990 --> 00:28:26.789
neat. It's been a ton of fun. And I have put

00:28:26.789 --> 00:28:28.230
this out to people in terms of like, is there

00:28:28.230 --> 00:28:30.109
a game that's like... very similar. A lot of

00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:32.369
times you'll say like, oh, it's like, you know,

00:28:32.369 --> 00:28:35.369
a ticket to ride, but with this, and this really

00:28:35.369 --> 00:28:37.569
has some unique mechanics that are not overly

00:28:37.569 --> 00:28:40.269
complicated, very approachable, but that feel

00:28:40.269 --> 00:28:42.430
pretty fresh. And I have yet to find a game that

00:28:42.430 --> 00:28:45.890
feels similar to it. So, yeah, I mean, as we're

00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:48.130
talking about the only card game I could think

00:28:48.130 --> 00:28:50.980
of. rings a bell with and this has taken me back

00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:53.440
many years back before Covid because it's a game

00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.799
I used to play with my first D &D group of friends

00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.799
was Unstable Unicorns because they had their

00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.900
own powers but they also had their own ways of

00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:02.839
manipulating other players and taking other cards

00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:07.069
and whatnot. but I kind of like really really

00:29:07.069 --> 00:29:09.630
am impressed with how well you actually reflect

00:29:09.630 --> 00:29:13.170
the dynamic of the Oseer Pantheon because they

00:29:13.170 --> 00:29:15.789
do also have to work together but then they also

00:29:15.789 --> 00:29:17.890
are kind of like they've all got their own agendas

00:29:17.890 --> 00:29:21.390
and schemes and yeah I mean I keep thinking back

00:29:21.390 --> 00:29:23.950
to reading the first I think one of the I think

00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:26.589
it was a myth in maybe it was in Kevin Crossley

00:29:26.589 --> 00:29:29.470
Holland's books or telling it at least of kind

00:29:29.470 --> 00:29:31.589
of like where Odin disguise himself and finds

00:29:31.589 --> 00:29:33.710
Thor across the river and he tries to have an

00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:36.369
insults match with no one are thinking you're

00:29:36.369 --> 00:29:41.339
not really nice are you Odin really? And I don't

00:29:41.339 --> 00:29:42.980
think Thor ever figures it out, too. He's not

00:29:42.980 --> 00:29:45.539
too bright, but he seems to entertain himself

00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.619
by just insulting his son for verses and verses

00:29:48.619 --> 00:29:51.859
and verses. It's interesting you bring up the

00:29:51.859 --> 00:29:53.819
story in the translations. Actually, Kevin Crossley

00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:55.339
Holland's translation was the first one that

00:29:55.339 --> 00:29:57.140
really got me into the Norse myths. He does a

00:29:57.140 --> 00:30:00.240
great job of staying true to the myths, but also

00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.380
presenting it in a presentable way, because it

00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:05.150
can be really confusing. I think as Western readers,

00:30:05.349 --> 00:30:06.910
we're used to, and I know you're a big book fan

00:30:06.910 --> 00:30:08.990
as well, but we're really used to this narrative

00:30:08.990 --> 00:30:11.289
arc of, you know, the introduction and the building

00:30:11.289 --> 00:30:13.769
tension and the climax and the resolution. Our

00:30:13.769 --> 00:30:16.750
idea of what a narrative in a story is, is not

00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:18.849
reflected a lot of the times in the North Smiths.

00:30:18.849 --> 00:30:20.869
And I think there's a few reasons for that. One

00:30:20.869 --> 00:30:22.930
is that this was a oral culture. They didn't

00:30:22.930 --> 00:30:24.630
have, they didn't write books, they didn't do

00:30:24.630 --> 00:30:27.349
written histories. And so, Stories weren't just

00:30:27.349 --> 00:30:29.170
entertainment for them. That was actually their

00:30:29.170 --> 00:30:30.670
history. That's how they passed on their culture,

00:30:30.789 --> 00:30:33.690
their beliefs. And so we'll find examples. Well,

00:30:33.869 --> 00:30:36.450
we were talking about Grymnus Mall, where this

00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:39.589
is the halls. You know, it seems odd to us. And

00:30:39.589 --> 00:30:41.069
if this was a movie sequence, we'd be scratching

00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:43.730
our heads to have a burn between two fires. And

00:30:43.730 --> 00:30:45.549
then he just goes on this rant about all the

00:30:45.549 --> 00:30:47.049
different halls that are in Asgard, listing them

00:30:47.049 --> 00:30:49.130
off and who lives in them. But this was a really

00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:51.490
common structure for and is a common structure

00:30:51.490 --> 00:30:55.559
for oral society's information. is not in books,

00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:58.200
right? We don't have textbooks. So we need to

00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:00.160
present the information somehow and wrapping

00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:02.839
it in the narrative of some sort of story, often

00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:05.380
put it in verse, which allows people to remember

00:31:05.380 --> 00:31:07.480
it more easily. If it's in rhythm and meter,

00:31:07.539 --> 00:31:09.480
if you miss a section, you can hear it, right?

00:31:09.539 --> 00:31:14.059
And so there's ways that they can make it easier

00:31:14.059 --> 00:31:15.859
to remember, easier to recall, easier to repeat

00:31:15.859 --> 00:31:19.240
accurately. And so, yeah, the stories that end

00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:23.520
up getting told there are interesting too. Kevin

00:31:23.520 --> 00:31:25.579
Crossley -Holland's translation is amazing and

00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:27.440
I would just say to any listener who wants an

00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:30.799
introduction to the Norse myths, it's great.

00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.539
There are a lot of, he has a great balance of

00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:35.759
letting certain questions just remain unanswered

00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.140
because you kind of have to while you're reading

00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:39.720
through the Norse myths. There's so many confusing

00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:41.180
things and things that don't really make sense.

00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:43.400
For example, are the giants bigger than the gods?

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:45.579
Are the gods bigger than humans? It's like the

00:31:45.579 --> 00:31:47.440
size scale doesn't really seem to make any sense.

00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:49.900
And I will say I think Giants is a mis -translation

00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:52.880
into English. It's common standard, but I don't

00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.980
think that's really how the Vikings viewed Jotun,

00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:58.460
who are from Jotunheim. We often call Giants

00:31:58.460 --> 00:32:02.660
and agree on that too. But yeah, yeah. So anyways,

00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:04.099
if you want to go to the source on this stuff

00:32:04.099 --> 00:32:06.180
from the Norse mythology perspective, I think

00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:08.180
you may have some suggestions too, but I think

00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:09.859
it's tough to beat Kevin Crossley -Holland's

00:32:09.859 --> 00:32:12.819
translation. Yes, I've got his kind of like his

00:32:12.819 --> 00:32:15.359
penguin book of Norse myths and then I've got

00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:18.559
this beautiful kind of like lino printed children's

00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.920
illustrated version, which I'm still waiting

00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:22.980
for Naomi to have patience on. Interesting. I

00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:24.740
mean, she knows who Thor is and she can name

00:32:24.740 --> 00:32:27.259
me on there. I was kind of like, who does Thor

00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:30.339
use his hammer on? And she was like, I don't

00:32:30.339 --> 00:32:34.039
know. I didn't want to confuse her too much with

00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:36.400
her, because then she'll be asking me like, what's

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.500
the outing? She's very full of questions. But

00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:42.140
at the minute, as a clever five and a half year

00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:46.160
old, she is with her obviously going to a a Church

00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:49.460
of England school, I don't know how much they'd

00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:51.700
be impressed or not if she started spouting about

00:32:51.700 --> 00:32:55.519
Thor and Odin, whilst they're trying to sing

00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:57.759
amen and hymns and kumbaya and all that jazz.

00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:01.740
It's funny you mentioned that because in Canada

00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:05.839
here, at least I'm from Canada, and there's definitely

00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.680
been a resurgence of popularity of names like

00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:09.779
Thor and Odin. I've seen the kids in school,

00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:12.420
which is great and all. Whenever I see a kid

00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:13.960
named Thor, I get a beautiful name, I love it,

00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:15.990
but I'm also a little bit like Do you know anything

00:33:15.990 --> 00:33:18.210
about Odin in the North? He's not the most pleasant

00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:22.670
guy, but yeah, it's fun. Well, I'm sure I've

00:33:22.670 --> 00:33:24.789
come across kids called Loki in the UK. I'm sure

00:33:24.789 --> 00:33:27.650
there was one in a nursery before she left. I'm

00:33:27.650 --> 00:33:29.930
sure there was another kid called Thunder, but

00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:32.569
I can't quite say whether that was a North influence

00:33:32.569 --> 00:33:37.250
or just because they like the name Thunder. But

00:33:37.250 --> 00:33:40.329
the other thing I was going to point out was

00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:44.259
especially the mechanic with Loki being a shapeshifter

00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:47.299
and how, at least in this game, you've kind of

00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:49.599
allowed him to impersonate, shape -shift into

00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.160
other gods in order to use their powers. It makes

00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:54.339
me think that actually, in the source material

00:33:54.339 --> 00:33:56.400
that we have, he never actually impersonates

00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.640
any of them. He's always shape -shifting into

00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.599
either a female form or an animal or just someone

00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:04.400
else entirely. He never actually impersonates

00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.839
anyone else, which is an interesting kind of...

00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.159
view, or at least use of shape shifting. Oh,

00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.219
totally. Yeah. And I mean, the sort of the motif

00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:16.960
of low -key sort of like boring other people's

00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.079
tools or stealing them or whatever is pretty

00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:20.239
common. You're right. That is a really good point.

00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:21.519
I never thought about that. He didn't actually

00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.820
impersonate other gods. I think it's a fairly

00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:27.250
common... theme and myths in general like just

00:34:27.250 --> 00:34:29.329
even outside of Norse myths is a god appearing

00:34:29.329 --> 00:34:31.530
to be somebody else and then deceiving them.

00:34:31.849 --> 00:34:32.909
I know that happens all the time in the Greek

00:34:32.909 --> 00:34:35.590
myths but one thing I will say and you touched

00:34:35.590 --> 00:34:38.530
a little bit on before on sort of the under representation

00:34:38.530 --> 00:34:41.469
of the goddesses in Asgard and so I really wanted

00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:45.659
to include uh uh goddesses as well obviously

00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:48.360
Freya uh was the inspiration for this game in

00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.460
a sense because that line about her receiving

00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:52.960
half the warriors was the inception of the whole

00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:56.559
idea um uh there's Eden as well who has the apples

00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:58.420
of eternal youth and she's got some really interesting

00:34:58.420 --> 00:35:00.500
powers she's a bit more of a difficult um card

00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:03.920
to play as well because her powers have to do

00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:06.119
with like regrowth and regeneration and then

00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:07.679
you're often like regenerating other players

00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:11.360
but you want to sort of use that with discretion

00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.860
to sort of benefit yourself or make sure that

00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:14.619
you're getting a good deal out of helping other

00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:19.539
people. But even magic itself. We have different

00:35:19.539 --> 00:35:22.420
understandings and concepts of gender and identity

00:35:22.420 --> 00:35:24.820
now, but in Viking times, it was very much seen

00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:28.420
that magic or seed was very much like a female

00:35:28.420 --> 00:35:30.820
domain and had a female energy to it, which is

00:35:30.820 --> 00:35:34.000
interesting because both Odin and Loki are constantly

00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.300
invading magic, trying to acquire magical items,

00:35:36.460 --> 00:35:38.500
trying to acquire magical knowledge, oftentimes

00:35:38.500 --> 00:35:40.420
like shape -shifting themselves, in Loki's case,

00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:43.539
into female creatures like the mare who gives

00:35:43.539 --> 00:35:48.920
birth to this. Yeah, there's a lot of background

00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.539
context and what's fun for me to see is some

00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:54.219
casual board game groups who've never read the

00:35:54.219 --> 00:35:56.699
Norse Myths having fun with this game and then

00:35:56.699 --> 00:35:59.280
also seeing people who like love Norse mythology

00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.880
and who are just sort of drooling all over the

00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:03.739
different illustrations and references like that

00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:06.659
too. So it's my hope that yeah, this game can

00:36:06.659 --> 00:36:08.380
maybe open up the door to Norse mythology for

00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:11.159
some casual board game and can maybe bring some

00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.539
folks who love board game or Norse mythology

00:36:13.539 --> 00:36:14.920
into board games because that's a really neat

00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:19.429
community too. Yeah, yeah, I mean, the line about

00:36:19.429 --> 00:36:21.889
Freyja, it's one I've been battling with personally,

00:36:22.269 --> 00:36:25.789
because as I may have told you or may not have

00:36:25.789 --> 00:36:27.230
told you in the past, or I've probably definitely

00:36:27.230 --> 00:36:29.670
named it in various episodes, I've been researching

00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:32.369
Valkyries independently in my own time, somehow

00:36:32.369 --> 00:36:34.489
barbed my way into academic circles and how they

00:36:34.489 --> 00:36:36.869
want me to write a paper. It's taken two years,

00:36:36.909 --> 00:36:39.269
but I think I've reached the finish line. I'm

00:36:39.269 --> 00:36:44.300
imminently waiting. Amazing. Move from... what

00:36:44.300 --> 00:36:46.780
was it conditional approval to firm approval

00:36:46.780 --> 00:36:49.519
and then it's done but one of the feedback both

00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.599
in the peer review and in the editors feedback

00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:55.179
was kind of like you've mentioned how Freya kind

00:36:55.179 --> 00:36:56.960
of like claims half the dead where does this

00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:58.659
line come from can you name the actual source

00:36:58.659 --> 00:37:00.960
I'm like um no because none of the books I read

00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.340
that mention it name it either they all say Snowy

00:37:04.340 --> 00:37:06.860
Stilson mentioned it from a poem but I don't

00:37:06.860 --> 00:37:09.000
find the name of the poem and of course Snowy

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:13.730
Stilson is now quite debatable as a source because,

00:37:13.889 --> 00:37:16.630
of course, he was a man, a Christian, and he

00:37:16.630 --> 00:37:18.730
wrote it 200 years after everyone believed and

00:37:18.730 --> 00:37:20.670
told these tales. He had his own agenda, and

00:37:20.670 --> 00:37:22.530
he wrote them down, and that's why we have fewer

00:37:22.530 --> 00:37:24.329
tales of the goddesses and more of the gods.

00:37:24.949 --> 00:37:26.570
To put it simply, there he was in listeners.

00:37:27.469 --> 00:37:29.989
So a lot of the stuff that he was aware of and

00:37:29.989 --> 00:37:33.150
then didn't put in directly, we've lost time

00:37:33.150 --> 00:37:36.949
and myth and memory. So we don't really know

00:37:36.949 --> 00:37:40.429
how much more of Freya had than kind of like

00:37:40.429 --> 00:37:44.880
his balancing act with Odin beyond those little

00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.119
snippets and it's teasing us as historians and

00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.239
those with just gender interests in the future.

00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:54.440
Oh 100 % and also the recognition that I mean

00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.239
what we have even as materials Snorri included

00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:59.579
is you know probably a fraction of a percent

00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:01.280
of all that would have been available at the

00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.420
time of the culture and everything like you said

00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:05.079
is filtered through history, it's filtered through

00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:06.699
the lens of Christianity, it's filtered through

00:38:06.699 --> 00:38:09.739
like a male dominant lens, it's yeah there's

00:38:09.739 --> 00:38:11.900
so many things that we're missing so we're really

00:38:11.900 --> 00:38:14.199
just you know Pulling threads here, we don't

00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.679
have a full picture. I've got an interesting

00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:18.280
point of discussion for you, if you'd like, in

00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:20.880
relation to the game. So as I was going through

00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:24.119
and designing the game, we've got Thor. He's

00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:26.320
got his hall, and Bill Skilner is the name of

00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:28.519
his hall. We've got Odin and Valhalla, obviously.

00:38:29.139 --> 00:38:33.960
Heimdall has a hall named Ingenbjörg. Eden has

00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:38.500
a hall named Edelvall. And Freya is in Cestrum

00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:43.670
here. Loki, where does Loki live? And I could

00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:47.650
not for the life of me, I have contacted academics,

00:38:47.949 --> 00:38:49.949
I've reached out to lots of my intelligent friends

00:38:49.949 --> 00:38:52.469
like yourself and other podcast hosts like Siobhan

00:38:52.469 --> 00:38:54.730
Clark from the Miss Legend of the Lord podcast,

00:38:54.889 --> 00:38:56.170
which is also nice to call someone you should

00:38:56.170 --> 00:38:59.190
check out. And I could not nail down if Loki

00:38:59.190 --> 00:39:01.210
had a hall or not. And I checked my references,

00:39:01.489 --> 00:39:03.489
my translations, I couldn't find anything. And

00:39:03.489 --> 00:39:05.610
so I had to settle on something a little bit.

00:39:05.789 --> 00:39:08.170
It's maybe not a full definition, but in the

00:39:08.170 --> 00:39:10.710
game, I made his hall. I called it Frondling

00:39:10.710 --> 00:39:13.750
Hall. which is a reference to Fronting Falls,

00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:16.969
which is the waterfall that the gods capture

00:39:16.969 --> 00:39:21.429
Loki in once they decide that he needs to be

00:39:21.429 --> 00:39:26.829
finished and that they're going to trap him.

00:39:26.969 --> 00:39:30.829
And so they find him as a fish jumping in the

00:39:30.829 --> 00:39:33.329
pool below Fronting Falls. And so I decided to

00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:35.289
make his hall Fronting Hall. So there's a bit

00:39:35.289 --> 00:39:37.710
of a creative license there, but I needed to

00:39:37.710 --> 00:39:40.329
give him a hall. So that was an interesting discussion

00:39:40.329 --> 00:39:42.710
point. I don't know if you have ever heard or

00:39:42.710 --> 00:39:45.010
have any idea of like a reference to Loki's halt,

00:39:45.050 --> 00:39:48.550
but I couldn't dig without. No, I mean, I've

00:39:48.550 --> 00:39:51.269
read a number of what we call Norse fantasy books,

00:39:51.590 --> 00:39:54.110
which feature heavily on Loki, both from his

00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:56.769
good side and his bad side. And they obviously

00:39:56.769 --> 00:39:58.809
be questioning kind of like whether you do like

00:39:58.809 --> 00:40:01.590
him or you don't. You kind of do equally kind

00:40:01.590 --> 00:40:04.090
of don't. But then you want to kind of get why

00:40:04.090 --> 00:40:06.630
he gets why he is because of the way he gets

00:40:06.630 --> 00:40:09.170
treated. Long story short, no, but I know they

00:40:09.170 --> 00:40:12.090
do all give him a hole because of course he married

00:40:12.090 --> 00:40:16.230
Bigin, which is a very forgotten goddess all

00:40:16.230 --> 00:40:19.349
together. We know very, very, very, very little

00:40:19.349 --> 00:40:21.170
about her besides her name and the fact that

00:40:21.170 --> 00:40:23.710
she had two sons and was a devoted wife to Loki

00:40:23.710 --> 00:40:25.809
even after they punished him with that snake.

00:40:26.329 --> 00:40:28.409
And she's the one there holding the bowl and

00:40:28.409 --> 00:40:30.510
catching the poison and then putting it aside

00:40:30.510 --> 00:40:34.909
and letting Loki rise for a bit. But yeah, it's

00:40:34.909 --> 00:40:39.929
an interesting point. There is so much we would

00:40:39.929 --> 00:40:42.429
love to know more of, so much we would love to

00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:46.750
know more of, but in a strange way I think this

00:40:46.750 --> 00:40:49.469
ambiguity, this vagueness, this lack of concrete

00:40:49.469 --> 00:40:53.550
definition like Christianity of course has its

00:40:53.550 --> 00:40:55.769
Bible and has its Old Testament and New Testament

00:40:55.769 --> 00:40:58.710
and all the palms and all the prayers and the

00:40:58.710 --> 00:41:00.670
Vatican's probably got tons more that they won't

00:41:00.670 --> 00:41:07.440
let anyone read for whatever reason. Yeah, they've

00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.079
kind of like, because that came through very

00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:13.960
much a written culture, but the Norse pantheon

00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:16.880
and their beliefs and their practices and their

00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.820
religious or kind of like, just kind of like,

00:41:20.019 --> 00:41:22.199
almost like folklore -esque, depending on how

00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:25.480
strong it was in different time zones, it didn't

00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:28.679
have that. So it kind of, it did fade into time.

00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:32.300
And I remember kind of like again working on

00:41:32.300 --> 00:41:35.139
my Valkyrie article and I was focusing very much

00:41:35.139 --> 00:41:37.199
on Brynhills and how very much she's depicted

00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:39.840
in modern day fiction, kind of like how we are

00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:41.659
trying to readdress the balance of kind of how

00:41:41.659 --> 00:41:45.019
she wasn't just an angry woman scorned by man

00:41:45.019 --> 00:41:47.300
and therefore the bloody betrayal and death etc,

00:41:49.219 --> 00:41:52.739
how kind of like at least in the poetic edda

00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:56.820
there is kind of like at the end of No, actually

00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:58.860
at the end of her, there's a set of poetry before

00:41:58.860 --> 00:42:00.619
her, which is Helgi Hunding's Bane, although

00:42:00.619 --> 00:42:03.059
there's two or three poems by Helgi Hunding's

00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:05.099
Bane, because of course they had different versions,

00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:06.960
and so they wrote the next quote. All culture

00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:09.420
would edit and amend as it was told orally, because

00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:11.659
no Scales probably ever told it the same. They

00:42:11.659 --> 00:42:13.460
didn't all have the same script, they just had

00:42:13.460 --> 00:42:17.960
their own edition, their own flair. But one mentions

00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:20.500
about how Helgi Hunding's Bane and his Valkyrie

00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:25.139
lover Tigran when they died they got reincarnated

00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:27.719
and Helgi was named Helgi something else but

00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:31.219
she got a new name of Kara but of course when

00:42:31.219 --> 00:42:33.079
these things were written down we don't know

00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:35.840
who wrote them down why they wrote them down

00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:37.980
what era it was written down how long ago it

00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:40.679
was written down we know nothing these anonymous

00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:43.340
people have a lot to offer or a lot of questions

00:42:43.340 --> 00:42:45.099
to ask when we all find them in the afterlife

00:42:45.099 --> 00:42:48.559
and where the universe we go to next And it kind

00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:50.239
of, I said, oh, yes, it's an old wives tale about

00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:54.159
reincarnation. And Kara also had her own poem

00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:56.039
called The Song of Kara, but that is now forever

00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:58.860
lost. And I'm like, why have you mentioned this?

00:42:59.019 --> 00:43:00.619
I'm not kind of like, where is The Song of Kara

00:43:00.619 --> 00:43:02.739
now? Why didn't you write it down? Why did someone

00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:05.800
not find it? And I'm just like, oh, what, what?

00:43:06.019 --> 00:43:08.920
I mean, Grid Hill, of course, did have her own

00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:11.119
poem in her own right, albeit set kind of like

00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:13.179
posthumously after the main events called Help.

00:43:14.349 --> 00:43:16.170
Brynhildr's hell ride, because she goes down

00:43:16.170 --> 00:43:19.150
to hell to sort herself out and reclaim Sigurd,

00:43:20.610 --> 00:43:22.829
about thinking she had a poem of her own and

00:43:22.829 --> 00:43:25.110
then this Kara, this Kara, Sigrun, she had a

00:43:25.110 --> 00:43:27.570
poem of her own. Who knew how many of the poems

00:43:27.570 --> 00:43:29.610
there were of these kind of like warrior women,

00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:33.110
Valkyries, all goddesses alone that we just don't

00:43:33.110 --> 00:43:36.050
know. And this is why we need a time machine,

00:43:36.369 --> 00:43:39.369
yes. We do need a time machine, but then we'll

00:43:39.369 --> 00:43:42.090
probably find out lots more that we're probably

00:43:42.090 --> 00:43:45.199
getting horribly wrong. but one story short the

00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:49.260
ambiguity and these gaps are perfect for you

00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:52.340
as creatives and for authors and for artists

00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:55.460
like the one you've got on the game of course

00:43:55.460 --> 00:43:57.900
the one that did same one who did the covers

00:43:57.900 --> 00:44:01.440
on your little lovely um watch gatewatch series

00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:04.900
it's because we've got no one to tell us no no

00:44:04.900 --> 00:44:07.679
no they didn't do that no no no that that's not

00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:10.889
true um we got history at least to kind of because

00:44:10.889 --> 00:44:12.969
how the real people lived in terms of mythology

00:44:12.969 --> 00:44:17.010
it's like an open sample you can build whatever

00:44:17.010 --> 00:44:19.650
you want and no one can tell you otherwise which

00:44:19.650 --> 00:44:22.250
is why no Viking game is the same no Viking fantasy

00:44:22.250 --> 00:44:24.409
book is the same they've all got gods doing different

00:44:24.409 --> 00:44:26.510
things but the same names same personalities

00:44:26.510 --> 00:44:30.449
to a degree and hence why I am just forever a

00:44:30.449 --> 00:44:32.170
Viking there because there's so much more to

00:44:32.170 --> 00:44:35.909
explore. The bottom list there's no end to the

00:44:35.909 --> 00:44:38.449
yeah exactly explorations and that and the retellings

00:44:38.449 --> 00:44:42.239
and you brought up some retellings of the the

00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.019
story of Loki kind of from the perspective, he's

00:44:44.019 --> 00:44:46.980
been a very popular character. You know, the

00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:50.099
gospel of Loki, you know, there's a kick things

00:44:50.099 --> 00:44:53.519
off. Oh, Joanna, she's she's brilliant. And then

00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:54.860
there's been lots of other retellings, too. But

00:44:54.860 --> 00:44:56.239
I think that's an important part of engagement

00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:57.900
with these stories. It's not just like it's a

00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:00.039
static story that sits there and watch it and

00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:01.840
we nod our head, we walk away. It's really a

00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:03.860
conversation, how we're engaging with them. And

00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:06.239
I think what we see in the mist is a reflection

00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:09.380
more of. ourselves and our society and the problems,

00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.780
the challenges that we have. And I think that's

00:45:11.780 --> 00:45:13.940
the other problem too, is that, you know, when

00:45:13.940 --> 00:45:15.320
Snorri Sturluson was doing his translations,

00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:17.440
what he was seeing in the myths, how he's interpreting

00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.400
them, kind of what he was identifying as important.

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.920
already related to had a lot to do with the,

00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:25.280
you know, the society and culture, religion,

00:45:25.739 --> 00:45:27.119
everything that was happening to him at that

00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:29.900
time. And so, yeah, I think once we can get past

00:45:29.900 --> 00:45:33.480
the idea that there's this perfect static, you

00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.860
know, true 100 % right version of all these things,

00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:39.079
and that this is sort of an evolving conversation.

00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:40.539
This is a piece of culture. This is something

00:45:40.539 --> 00:45:42.780
we've sort of worked even to modern day society.

00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:46.039
I mean, the Norse myths of showed up in so many

00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:48.760
different interesting ways. That's a more meaningful

00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:51.440
way to engage with this than trying to dig through

00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.559
and find that one, you know, solid piece of 100

00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:56.820
% true evidence. Though it is fun to do that

00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.679
and go in those rabbit holes and try to try to

00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:02.579
dig those things up. Absolutely. I mean, of course,

00:46:02.619 --> 00:46:04.719
we all kind of like, no, deviousness. I hope

00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:06.619
you can all agree now that Vikings did not have

00:46:06.619 --> 00:46:10.440
horned helmets. In terms of kind of the mythology,

00:46:11.300 --> 00:46:13.699
like I remember coming across many years ago

00:46:13.699 --> 00:46:16.289
and academic and I've forgotten his name, it's

00:46:16.289 --> 00:46:19.349
off the top of my head. But he did like the whole

00:46:19.349 --> 00:46:22.510
massive book, literally, and it did get published

00:46:22.510 --> 00:46:24.570
and it was like over a hundred pounds to buy

00:46:24.570 --> 00:46:28.510
academically, I'm like no. But he basically looked

00:46:28.510 --> 00:46:31.409
at all the literary evidence and found that basically

00:46:31.409 --> 00:46:34.349
Thor does not make lightning and yet we all connect

00:46:34.349 --> 00:46:38.349
Thor with storms and lightning and it's those

00:46:38.349 --> 00:46:40.900
things that we add onto them. that we add on

00:46:40.900 --> 00:46:42.579
to that as you say give relevance and meaning

00:46:42.579 --> 00:46:44.380
to our time now such as as you're thinking of

00:46:44.380 --> 00:46:47.860
like Loki has had a renaissance as a rise of

00:46:47.860 --> 00:46:51.219
an anti -hero because anti -heroes weren't really

00:46:51.219 --> 00:46:54.880
a concept or an idea centuries ago kind of like

00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.440
if you're a bad guy you're a bad guy and of course

00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:58.099
that's why when he first turns up in the Marvel

00:46:58.099 --> 00:47:00.440
comics he's absolutely kind of like dastardly

00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:03.420
evil and full of wicked lies and plans and epic

00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:05.480
monologues he kind of like I'll get you next

00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:13.019
time Thor and all that jazz. I recently watched

00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:16.940
the Loki series that Marvel did and I thought

00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:19.179
I was actually really impressed by the end of

00:47:19.179 --> 00:47:21.860
it because I thought that is such a deep dive

00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:25.719
into that character. the office and Morpheus

00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:27.260
and Morpheus kind of like, do you enjoy hurting

00:47:27.260 --> 00:47:29.880
people? Do you really? And looking kind of like,

00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:31.860
kind of like bats off in Sony ways. And eventually

00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:34.239
just kind of like, it's okay, no, I don't. But

00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:36.300
then they hurt me and it's not fair and it's

00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:37.980
not nice. And kind of like, oh my gosh, you're

00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:43.679
just like a bully child. And it's putting ourselves

00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:47.079
or emphasizing kind of like things that we relate

00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:49.460
to, such as kind of like bullying and power control.

00:47:50.139 --> 00:47:52.079
or that kind of I'm being the odd one and being

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:54.739
the black sheep and being different. And certainly

00:47:54.739 --> 00:47:56.639
kind of like with my research into Brynhild,

00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.059
kind of like the rise of kind of like the strong

00:47:59.059 --> 00:48:02.340
female character and shield maidens. But that's

00:48:02.340 --> 00:48:04.699
a whole other topic because I persisted on the

00:48:04.699 --> 00:48:06.820
Valkyrie route because it's mythology and I can

00:48:06.820 --> 00:48:09.719
discuss it more. I don't know enough history

00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:12.880
to do touch on to your maidens confidently. And

00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:15.880
it just helps all these additions reconnect them,

00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:19.440
help them. transition to all this time, centuries

00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.519
after their religion as a whole has basically

00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:26.619
faded to dust. They're still being told, just

00:48:26.619 --> 00:48:29.800
like the Greek myths, and I often say the Norse

00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:31.780
gods are effectively human, they just haven't

00:48:31.780 --> 00:48:33.980
had access to life -longing fruit, but then that's

00:48:33.980 --> 00:48:36.099
why doctors recommend apples every day, I think,

00:48:36.579 --> 00:48:39.699
and very powerful toys, very nice magical items

00:48:39.699 --> 00:48:41.719
that help them do their magical things, because

00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:44.659
otherwise they would just be normal humans, I

00:48:44.659 --> 00:48:47.590
think. Well, and to quote the Havamel, I mean,

00:48:47.690 --> 00:48:50.489
kinsmen die, cattle die, but the reputation of

00:48:50.489 --> 00:48:52.650
a famous man lives on, right? It's like these

00:48:52.650 --> 00:48:55.690
ministers continuing to kind of reverberate through

00:48:55.690 --> 00:48:57.929
the centuries. And I think it's just because

00:48:57.929 --> 00:48:59.289
they're good stories and they're interesting

00:48:59.289 --> 00:49:01.210
characters, and they represent maybe something

00:49:01.210 --> 00:49:03.349
deeper than just the culture that they came from,

00:49:03.369 --> 00:49:05.690
but maybe, you know, the human experience. And

00:49:05.690 --> 00:49:07.250
I mean, now we're getting really deep into things.

00:49:07.590 --> 00:49:09.469
But yeah, no, I think there's a lot of reasons

00:49:09.469 --> 00:49:12.590
why folks like us get sucked into this and just

00:49:12.590 --> 00:49:15.929
can't learn enough or ever kind of get to the

00:49:15.929 --> 00:49:17.550
bottom of things. This is sort of the fun and

00:49:17.550 --> 00:49:20.190
sort of the adventure. And you mentioned so beautifully

00:49:20.190 --> 00:49:22.230
about this idea of like embodiment and people

00:49:22.230 --> 00:49:24.969
sort of seeing themselves in the midst. And I

00:49:24.969 --> 00:49:27.110
think that's one of the neatest things of the

00:49:27.110 --> 00:49:28.550
game for me was just to kind of see people kind

00:49:28.550 --> 00:49:30.570
of step into these roles, almost like, you know,

00:49:30.610 --> 00:49:32.130
you mentioned D &D, like a role playing game.

00:49:32.349 --> 00:49:34.429
you know, in a sense, kind of playing out this

00:49:34.429 --> 00:49:36.630
story. And it's like, why don't the gods always

00:49:36.630 --> 00:49:38.210
work together? It's like, well, I'm not gonna

00:49:38.210 --> 00:49:39.889
work with Thor because I wanted to use his hammer,

00:49:39.949 --> 00:49:41.510
but he wouldn't let me because he wanted to use

00:49:41.510 --> 00:49:43.969
it. And it's these little petty things that end

00:49:43.969 --> 00:49:45.750
up making these sort of like epic moments in

00:49:45.750 --> 00:49:48.750
the game where, you know, maybe there's a betrayal

00:49:48.750 --> 00:49:50.889
or there's, you know, somebody finally gives

00:49:50.889 --> 00:49:53.230
in and joins the other side or decides to cooperate

00:49:53.230 --> 00:49:56.349
or interrupt things. So yeah, we're creating

00:49:56.349 --> 00:50:00.639
little mini sagas here. Well, it is. It's a beautiful

00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:03.260
reflection of the way that Pantene at least appears

00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:06.400
to work from all the different sources and retellings

00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:09.280
that we've had over the centuries. I remember

00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:11.320
reading, of course, my favorite myth, which is

00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.000
the Lay of Thrym involving Thor getting involved

00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:18.079
in a wedding dress. that have this huge debate

00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:20.260
in the hall about what to do because this giant's

00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:22.000
turned up and he said he'll build them a wall

00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:24.639
but he wants Freya and the sun and the moon and

00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:26.179
of course Freya quite rightly doesn't want to

00:50:26.179 --> 00:50:27.440
go and then wants to see even the sun and the

00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.699
moon either and even Loki doesn't really have

00:50:29.699 --> 00:50:31.739
an idea for it but it's him Dal, it's him Dal

00:50:31.739 --> 00:50:34.019
who suggests the whole pudding and he goes you're

00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:35.480
not going to like it though but I have an idea

00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:37.260
he goes all right try me I'm like yeah I don't

00:50:37.260 --> 00:50:40.000
like the idea I love how he's like I have an

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:48.369
idea you're not going to like it Because they

00:50:48.369 --> 00:50:52.630
have all got their own agendas and motives in

00:50:52.630 --> 00:50:55.610
the way. And of course, I think certainly kind

00:50:55.610 --> 00:50:58.630
of like in the way the Marvel Cinematic Universe

00:50:58.630 --> 00:51:04.889
has represented that pantheon, they've made owning

00:51:04.889 --> 00:51:08.090
almost too palatable. for my taste he's very

00:51:08.090 --> 00:51:11.309
much just just an old grandad really. Whereas

00:51:11.309 --> 00:51:14.570
in kind of at the main sources he is so manipulative,

00:51:14.789 --> 00:51:17.150
I mean he betrays Frigga his wife so many times

00:51:17.150 --> 00:51:20.150
it's ridiculous but then the Greek gods do it

00:51:20.150 --> 00:51:23.949
just as much so I can't really complain. But

00:51:23.949 --> 00:51:27.829
kind of like in modern Norse fantasy retellings

00:51:27.829 --> 00:51:30.409
that we represented me often not just manipulative,

00:51:30.469 --> 00:51:32.570
but he's also cruel and he's also kind of like

00:51:32.570 --> 00:51:34.690
super paranoid. He needs to know everything.

00:51:34.769 --> 00:51:37.389
It's why he's got wisdom and he has to have all

00:51:37.389 --> 00:51:39.070
the knowledge. That's why he keeps a guy's head

00:51:39.070 --> 00:51:43.070
in a jar because it's another way of gaining

00:51:43.070 --> 00:51:47.150
knowledge. But then I do sometimes find that

00:51:47.150 --> 00:51:49.429
they represent him kind of like the paranoia

00:51:49.429 --> 00:51:51.510
kind of like is stemming because he knows the

00:51:51.510 --> 00:51:53.349
end is coming and he wants everyone to survive,

00:51:53.389 --> 00:51:55.389
but he can't. That's why he's doing all that

00:51:55.389 --> 00:51:58.019
he does to get the dead on. and I think that's

00:51:58.019 --> 00:51:59.860
one interesting thing that I definitely found

00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:03.340
within the books or at least one particular book

00:52:03.340 --> 00:52:05.199
I was looking at in terms of Brunnhilde which

00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:07.820
came out the year I actually got to go to Norway

00:52:07.820 --> 00:52:10.139
which was The Valkyrie by Kate Hartfield which

00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:13.119
I highly recommend anyone read. You don't even

00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:16.800
have to know who Sigurd the Fafnir, Sigurd the

00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.679
Fafnir Slayer is just to read it plunges you

00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:25.309
straight in but it shows him almost like Manically

00:52:25.309 --> 00:52:27.710
manifesting and encouraging humanity to do more

00:52:27.710 --> 00:52:29.510
and more wars, more and more battles in order

00:52:29.510 --> 00:52:32.289
for him to get more and more warriors up to Valhalla.

00:52:32.469 --> 00:52:33.829
So he's kind of like not just the god of war,

00:52:33.849 --> 00:52:36.610
he makes war. He makes it happen. He's the trigger

00:52:36.610 --> 00:52:39.530
point. He's kind of like the ill -informed advisor

00:52:39.530 --> 00:52:41.170
was springing to one king's ear and then doing

00:52:41.170 --> 00:52:44.170
the same to the next. So he's kind of like manipulating

00:52:44.170 --> 00:52:46.909
humanity on that level as well as manipulating

00:52:46.909 --> 00:52:50.940
the gods in various ways and shapes. But yeah,

00:52:50.980 --> 00:52:53.179
the game absolutely sounds fascinating. I can't

00:52:53.179 --> 00:52:54.900
wait to play it. The Kickstarter is, as I said,

00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:58.360
now live. Yes, we are live. So I guess, touching

00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.340
on Kickstarter, have you got any stretch goals

00:53:00.340 --> 00:53:02.239
in mind, or is it clearly just getting the game

00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:05.380
out into hands? So yeah, great question. So oftentimes

00:53:05.380 --> 00:53:07.519
we give our back to Kickstarter. I'll just give

00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:09.809
a quick... idea of how that works, is it's a

00:53:09.809 --> 00:53:11.250
crowdfunding model. And in board games, this

00:53:11.250 --> 00:53:13.349
is really common, and it's not common in other

00:53:13.349 --> 00:53:15.789
industries. Even like book publishing, for example,

00:53:15.849 --> 00:53:17.230
it's usually the big publishing houses who are

00:53:17.230 --> 00:53:19.590
putting the big products out. But in board games,

00:53:19.710 --> 00:53:21.989
it's really unique as a community. The biggest

00:53:21.989 --> 00:53:23.929
board games, the best board games, the ones that

00:53:23.929 --> 00:53:26.710
are the most popular are being crowdfunded. And

00:53:26.710 --> 00:53:28.570
what that means is that people who play board

00:53:28.570 --> 00:53:30.670
games are going and saying, yes, this is a game

00:53:30.670 --> 00:53:32.969
I want to play. It's not being decided by some

00:53:32.969 --> 00:53:34.710
CEO in a boardroom somewhere that this will be

00:53:34.710 --> 00:53:36.610
the most popular game of the year. It really

00:53:36.610 --> 00:53:38.500
is. got the power of the people, which is great.

00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:41.280
So the way Kickstarter works is if you back at

00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.360
Kickstarter, you commit some funds towards the

00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:47.460
goal for a certain tier of reward. In this case,

00:53:47.500 --> 00:53:50.360
it would be the game and that would fund the

00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:51.820
project so that it can get published, it can

00:53:51.820 --> 00:53:54.039
be distributed and that you can get a copy in

00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:56.840
your hands. There is a time frame on these. I

00:53:56.840 --> 00:53:59.880
am ambitiously going to try to fund this and

00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:02.219
fulfill it within a year. That is my goal. That

00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:04.039
might sound like a long time, but Kickstarter

00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:06.679
projects, if you understand sort of how taking

00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:10.420
distribution, global trade networks work can

00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:12.760
be fast. Kickstarters can take sometimes up to

00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:15.079
three, four, five, six years to fulfill, which

00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:16.559
is frustrating from that perspective, but is

00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:19.099
really just the reality of how things are set

00:54:19.099 --> 00:54:20.619
up. And obviously there's a lot of chaos and

00:54:20.619 --> 00:54:24.940
a lot of shifting happening now too. So pending,

00:54:24.940 --> 00:54:27.000
you know, things going as smoothly as they possibly

00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.619
can, that will be the goal. Sometimes Kickstarters

00:54:29.619 --> 00:54:30.820
are all stretch goals, so we'll say if we get

00:54:30.820 --> 00:54:32.559
a certain amount of money, we'll add this, we'll

00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.900
do that. I'm avoiding that only because, like

00:54:34.900 --> 00:54:36.619
I said, this project is going to Kickstart Little

00:54:36.619 --> 00:54:39.159
Hammer Games. This is kind of the initial fledgling

00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:40.840
project, and I really want to keep things as

00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:43.659
simple as possible. So I'm calling it a no -nonsense

00:54:43.659 --> 00:54:45.880
project here. We're just going to get the game,

00:54:45.900 --> 00:54:47.039
we're going to get it done. I'm not going to

00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:48.940
add fancy bells and whistles at this point in

00:54:48.940 --> 00:54:51.699
time. There might be future Kickstarters for

00:54:51.699 --> 00:54:53.960
perhaps expansions, additions, other games. But

00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:55.659
for now, I just really want to get this one up

00:54:55.659 --> 00:54:57.159
and running, get it into people's hands as soon

00:54:57.159 --> 00:55:00.039
as possible. and you can get yourself a copy

00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:03.019
if you're back at Kickstarter. Also, yes, Asgard.

00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:05.760
Yeah. Well, the link will be at the bottom of

00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:07.960
this video in the description, so please do go

00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:11.360
hit it, guys. Throw some money in. I mean, Kickstarter's

00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:12.739
quite user -friendly in that you can just throw

00:55:12.739 --> 00:55:14.940
money in without actually claiming the benefit

00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:16.920
of the products that you're supporting. So if

00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:19.380
you just like Joshua's work and want to keep

00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:22.820
him going, please do so. I certainly will. Because

00:55:22.820 --> 00:55:24.860
I have a collection of games even, like I have

00:55:24.860 --> 00:55:27.239
all thingy. Modern Horizon, even though I have

00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.059
no one to play with, I still have it just because

00:55:29.059 --> 00:55:30.980
it's an awesome game and it's cool artwork. And

00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:33.159
at some point I might be able to explain who

00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:34.659
these people are to my ear, because of course

00:55:34.659 --> 00:55:37.179
it was based on historical figures, which is

00:55:37.179 --> 00:55:41.239
really cool. I guess we should, of course, as

00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:43.980
you say, give some credit and some air time to

00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:46.059
the wonderful artists you've got doing all these

00:55:46.059 --> 00:55:48.500
amazing cards and the mats and the tokens and

00:55:48.500 --> 00:55:50.260
everything. So how did you first come across

00:55:50.260 --> 00:55:53.840
that? So I just, the internet, I don't know if

00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.960
it was Instagram or what, but this artist kept

00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:00.340
popping up and her work was sort of hand painted.

00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.699
It was so vivid. It wasn't traditional Viking

00:56:04.699 --> 00:56:08.420
style, but it had, it was reminiscent of, you

00:56:08.420 --> 00:56:09.820
know, the different eras, you may be familiar

00:56:09.820 --> 00:56:12.079
with, like, gelling style and earned style and

00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:13.860
things like that. And I was fascinated. My head

00:56:13.860 --> 00:56:15.760
was so deep into this stuff. I immediately recognized

00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:18.559
like this artist. has a much deeper understanding

00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:21.000
of sort of the art forms, of the myths, of the

00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.800
stories, of everything. And so she's got an incredible

00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:28.539
range of pieces, which you can find on, I think

00:56:28.539 --> 00:56:30.679
she has a website, DeviantArt is where I first

00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:32.679
found her, and she's got prints for purchase

00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:35.880
there. But it just seems from the myths. So for

00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:40.150
example, you mentioned from Trinsquida, the scene

00:56:40.150 --> 00:56:42.489
where Thor dresses up as a bride to retrieve

00:56:42.489 --> 00:56:46.329
Freya's hammer. She's got an amazing series of

00:56:46.329 --> 00:56:48.289
images sort of depicting that and she does an

00:56:48.289 --> 00:56:50.530
excellent job. I think she's got a soft spot

00:56:50.530 --> 00:56:53.619
for Loki. Loki always has a sort of... place

00:56:53.619 --> 00:56:56.179
in a lot of her illustrations. But no, it was

00:56:56.179 --> 00:56:59.539
incredible. So she had done the covers for my

00:56:59.539 --> 00:57:02.099
fantasy trilogy about the Troll Hunters in Gatewatch.

00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:05.320
That's the 10 -3 saga. And I loved her work.

00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:07.719
And this was quite a while ago that we sort of

00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:10.659
initiated this project. But I'd love to do a

00:57:10.659 --> 00:57:12.440
board game with you. I love your style, if you're

00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:14.340
interested. She heard the concept. She's like,

00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:16.800
I love this. This is cool. And so we worked on

00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:21.199
that for a few years. And now here it is. So

00:57:21.199 --> 00:57:23.579
I would say. Definitely worth checking out. I

00:57:23.579 --> 00:57:26.900
think her tag on DeviantArt is Helenim and we'll

00:57:26.900 --> 00:57:28.619
include a link maybe to that in the show notes

00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:31.340
as well. Yes, we will because we love supporting

00:57:31.340 --> 00:57:33.539
all creatives of anything Nordic and artists

00:57:33.539 --> 00:57:36.739
is definitely one of them. I know the few times

00:57:36.739 --> 00:57:38.260
I do get to go to a Comic Con not that there

00:57:38.260 --> 00:57:39.840
are many in the north of England now because

00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:41.960
of the way Covid shut lots of big things down.

00:57:42.500 --> 00:57:44.300
I always get excited when I find someone who

00:57:44.300 --> 00:57:48.119
does anything remotely Nordic. So, not that I

00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:50.300
have an office or even a wall of my own, I'm

00:57:50.300 --> 00:57:51.840
currently sat in the corner of my lounge, not

00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:56.820
the full hall that you see behind me. This is

00:57:56.820 --> 00:57:58.280
the price you pay for having children, you have

00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:00.920
to give up any geeky space, so all my geeky stuff

00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:04.139
is in my wardrobe. Waiting for the day I can

00:58:04.139 --> 00:58:06.039
afford to hire my own office and make it my own

00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:08.360
studio. But that's a dream, that is a dream,

00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:10.980
until I have my virtual Val Hall, so that'll

00:58:10.980 --> 00:58:17.030
do. So how long is this Kickstarter open for,

00:58:17.030 --> 00:58:19.869
for people to throw money in? So yeah, it launches

00:58:19.869 --> 00:58:23.010
today. It's going to wrap up on April 30th. So

00:58:23.010 --> 00:58:25.730
we've got 24 days to make it happen. If we reach

00:58:25.730 --> 00:58:27.699
the goal, product is funded we're going to make

00:58:27.699 --> 00:58:29.880
it and if it doesn't then I go back to the drawing

00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:31.880
board and then maybe return to it maybe go on

00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:33.840
to the next thing we'll see but I'm hopeful we

00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:35.699
can make this happen it's it's a smaller scale

00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:38.280
project as far as kickstarters and I encourage

00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:39.980
you if you are interested in this kind of thing

00:58:39.980 --> 00:58:41.780
especially board games there's a lot of really

00:58:41.780 --> 00:58:44.159
neat stuff it's also a bit of a dangerous game

00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:45.639
surfing around Kickstarter because there's so

00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:48.449
many awesome things that you might want to get

00:58:48.449 --> 00:58:51.469
your hands into and become a part of. But yeah,

00:58:51.650 --> 00:58:54.389
that's the campaign. So all of April, we'll be

00:58:54.389 --> 00:58:57.429
running it starting today. And that's your chance.

00:58:57.550 --> 00:59:00.349
Once the Kickstarter is over, that's kind of

00:59:00.349 --> 00:59:02.489
it. So it's your chance to hop on board if this

00:59:02.489 --> 00:59:03.789
sounds like it's something that's up your alley,

00:59:03.809 --> 00:59:05.909
or if you have somebody in your life who, like

00:59:05.909 --> 00:59:08.090
Becky and I, are obsessed with Vikings and Norse

00:59:08.090 --> 00:59:09.570
myths, and you've bought them all the other stuff,

00:59:09.829 --> 00:59:12.949
well, here's something different. Yep, absolutely.

00:59:13.150 --> 00:59:16.969
I mean, it's almost like very much an alternative

00:59:16.969 --> 00:59:19.090
form of the actual game itself in that we all

00:59:19.090 --> 00:59:21.369
have to join the hall before the door's shut.

00:59:23.210 --> 00:59:27.829
We'll be a hero with you. So are you going to

00:59:27.829 --> 00:59:30.610
any conventions, game shows, anything like that

00:59:30.610 --> 00:59:34.110
during the Kickstarter launch? Not during the

00:59:34.110 --> 00:59:37.369
Kickstarter launch. I was at Terminal City tabletop

00:59:37.369 --> 00:59:39.670
convention in Vancouver back in March, had a

00:59:39.670 --> 00:59:41.550
wonderful time, lots of awesome folks there.

00:59:41.909 --> 00:59:43.730
So I won't have boots on the ground anywhere

00:59:43.730 --> 00:59:45.690
out here in April, though I might be making a

00:59:45.690 --> 00:59:47.909
little guest appearance at Calgary. Comic -con

00:59:47.909 --> 00:59:50.250
but not in an official capacity as little hammer

00:59:50.250 --> 00:59:53.889
games just to go for fun But but yeah, no main

00:59:53.889 --> 00:59:57.309
place to find it would be on on Kickstarter if

00:59:57.309 --> 00:59:58.650
you want to know more about the game you feel

00:59:58.650 --> 01:00:00.750
like you haven't got Enough of a sense of how

01:00:00.750 --> 01:00:03.570
the gameplay works There is an amazing rule video

01:00:03.570 --> 01:00:07.590
by Ryan from how to play whose channel is amazing

01:00:07.590 --> 01:00:09.889
board game coverage rule reviews He will give

01:00:09.889 --> 01:00:12.550
you an entire overview of how the game works

01:00:12.550 --> 01:00:15.750
including the rules There's also some other designer

01:00:15.750 --> 01:00:17.739
interviews you'll find this one in one of the

01:00:17.739 --> 01:00:19.739
future updates throughout the campaign as well.

01:00:19.900 --> 01:00:23.360
And there's a board game review from an Australian

01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:25.500
board gamer, Hodges, who's got a banger question.

01:00:26.179 --> 01:00:27.380
So yeah, if you want to learn more about the

01:00:27.380 --> 01:00:29.019
game, kind of see on the table, see more of the

01:00:29.019 --> 01:00:30.559
art, check out the Kickstarter page. And there's

01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:33.239
some videos there where you can see not only

01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:35.119
images of the game, but some videos of how to

01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:38.179
play and stuff like that too. Brilliant. Well,

01:00:38.179 --> 01:00:40.179
as I've said from the word go, I will definitely

01:00:40.179 --> 01:00:42.440
be throwing my pennies worth in because I love

01:00:42.440 --> 01:00:45.519
you and I love your work. So it's all good. And

01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:48.119
I guess We're going to wrap this up because it's

01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:50.880
very late my time, albeit earlier in your time,

01:00:51.340 --> 01:00:53.820
and we very much could talk about Viking stuff

01:00:53.820 --> 01:00:55.960
for absolutely hours just because we just connect

01:00:55.960 --> 01:01:00.340
on such a Norse level. But we will spare the

01:01:00.340 --> 01:01:03.820
ears and views of our viewers and listeners for

01:01:03.820 --> 01:01:08.300
hours and hours. But thank you so much for coming

01:01:08.300 --> 01:01:10.400
back to our Conversations podcast. I wish you

01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:12.280
the best of luck with the Kickstarter. I'll do

01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:15.670
my little best to mention it in all my various

01:01:15.670 --> 01:01:17.730
platforms and circles. Not that I have that many

01:01:17.730 --> 01:01:19.590
friends who go for it, but you never know. All

01:01:19.590 --> 01:01:22.789
it'll help is just spreading the word. And we

01:01:22.789 --> 01:01:26.550
will hopefully get a physical copy in the near

01:01:26.550 --> 01:01:29.409
future. Thank you so much, Becky. I really appreciate

01:01:29.409 --> 01:01:32.230
having you on. No worries. We'll hopefully see

01:01:32.230 --> 01:01:34.750
you again soon. Thank you very much. Thanks.

01:01:52.650 --> 01:01:55.769
Thank you very much for listening to this episode.

01:01:56.369 --> 01:01:58.909
I hope you enjoyed the discussions between my

01:01:58.909 --> 01:02:02.190
special guests and myself. Please do check out

01:02:02.190 --> 01:02:04.710
the episode blurb for links to their works and

01:02:04.710 --> 01:02:07.730
websites. If you liked this episode let me know

01:02:07.730 --> 01:02:10.510
by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if you

01:02:10.510 --> 01:02:12.769
learned something new in the comments and of

01:02:12.769 --> 01:02:15.710
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