Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review. how such subjects are
being presented to modern audiences today. If
you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla
and I hope you stay for the conversation. Hello
everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast, and
I'm delighted to say today is a special day for
two very exciting reasons. One, we have a return
guest. That's right, he didn't get in for the
meet in Valhalla last time, so he's come back
for a second round. And I'm delighted to welcome
Joshua Gilligan back to the virtual hall. I beg
you, please have a seat. I think you're very
welcome. I'm so glad to have you back because
we are here to talk about something very, very
exciting. And I've been following it on your
various socials and platforms for a while, which
is a new board game. Well, say board game, card
game, I should say. You've got coming out coal
holes with Valhalla and it's connected to the
wonderful logo on your t -shirt, Little Hammer
Games, which you are now deeply involved with
as kind of like a creative in the sphere of Nordic
stuff. So I guess we should begin with kind of
like as we talked to you it was about all thingy
the card game and the crescent and the northern
star and of course the gatewatch trilogy to be
hopefully you're sort of waiting eagerly for
the third book um which i whole highly recommend
our viewers go back and listen to that episode
and buy all those wonderful things um but now
you're in little hammer games fully and absolutely
embodied in it so tell us about that Yeah, thanks,
Becky. Well, so glad to be back on, and I will
take every chance I can to nerd out about biking
stuff, and there's none better than you here
in your hall, and so yeah, yeah, very glad to
be back. Little Hammer Games. So Little Hammer
Games is sort of the imprint of some of my...
game design stuff. So I published, as you mentioned
before, All Thingy Won't Arise, which is a card
game set in Viking Age Iceland. And so I was
sort of the designer on that one. That was my
design credit. And it's listed on the boxes in
association with Little Hunter games, but I wasn't
the publisher. I was just the design. So we worked
back and forth. They were great to work with.
They're a massive publisher. They do all sorts
of things, magazines and board games and stuff
like that. This new game, Halls of Asgard, is
a foray into taking on the role of a publisher,
too. So I'm kind of doing everything. I designed
the game. I worked really closely with the artist,
and you would recognize her artwork right away.
It's very distinctive. We'll have to sing her
praises a bit later. But essentially, yes, Little
Hammer Games is about to launch with this new
project, Halls of Asgard, which is a board game
that is firmly set within mythology, which is
my personal favorite area of Viking history and
myth. So I love the historical stuff. It was
really neat to kind of work with the historically
-based game, which then spawned the expansion
and the anthology that we had also chatted about.
But this is a new project, and it's firmly set
within the Norse myths. So yeah, that's Little
Hammer Games. And things are about to launch.
We'll see how the Kickstarter goes. But I'm hopeful
that we can get this project off the ground,
and that will lead to many more Viking things.
Wonderful. Well, to whet the appetite of our
listeners and viewers, depending on what platform
you're listening or joining us into our virtual
hall, I will read to you currently the blurb
of the Halls of Asgard game and then I'll give
you the exciting news, which is it's going live
imminently. So, the Halls of Asgard is a semi
-cooperative social strategy game for three to
six players. About 25 minutes with absolutely
stunning hand -painted art by the celebrated
Norse mythology artist, and I did recognize Helena
Roosevelt because she did the covers for your
Gatewatch duology. Looking in on the later side,
it's a great starter for those new to board games
with an easy setup, a simple mechanic that can
generate surprisingly intricate cooperative strategies
and guaranteed memorable times. Love that line.
The semi -quasperative aspect lends itself to
a delightful tension between defeating Pela,
the goddess of the North Underworld, and outdoing
your fellow Asgardian gods. So, dear viewers
and listeners, each player takes on the role
of a god. You can have Odin, Thor, Rhea, Kim
Dal, Idun, or Loki. I salute you for putting
in the goddesses there, sir. Well done. With
two unique powers and one unique curse. Interesting.
Gazing down at the mortals passing through the
life stages, either child, warrior, or elder
on the Midgard board. They use their powers to
claim heroes that join them in their hall in
preparation for Ragnarok. And along the way,
Hela claims mortals of the Midgard board and
gains all those who die without honor or glory.
of old age. A unique clan mechanic and differing
moral values of 0, 1, or 2 adds an extra element
of strategy as gods collect their heroes. If
one of the gods can defeat Hela through the strength
of their gathered warriors, the gods win. Hurrah.
However, if Hela ends up with a higher strength
score, all players lose as Ragnarok sets the
nine realms aflame. Dun, dun, dun. And that Kickstarter,
guys, is now live. So I will be going. after
this recording drops, and I'll be putting my
pennies worth it, because I would like a game.
I don't know when I'll play it or who I'll play
it with, but I would like coffee. The artwork
is gorgeous. And I have a major regret now, Becky,
that we just throw that introduction, that I
didn't get you to do my Kickstarter video. You
should have scripted that. You should have been
the narrator for my script. It would have been
like, oh, yeah, come on through the door here.
That's great. It's cinematic. Very kind of you,
sir. Yeah, so that's a really nice little summary
capture of the game, and I'm happy to start with
whatever you want to. We can talk about the game
mechanics, how the game works, or we could get
into the juicy mythological stuff. What do you
want to get going with? Well, I always like to
start at the beginning, like the beginning of
the creation myth. So what is the creation myth
for you for this game? Where did the idea first
pop into your head that you're going to have?
Gods vs. Hell and numbers of warriors involved.
This began a long time ago. I actually just started
developing this game in 2016, which is almost
10 years ago, and it sort of developed in spurts
and stages, and it was actually the very first
game I ever started working on. I designed other
games after this game that were published before
it. So it's interesting, the sequence of published
games for me is not going to be the same as like
when they were originally thought of or designed.
But I really love this idea and the myths and
inviting culture of like your career or like
your fate. And so the original game was going
to be something where there's these Viking heroes
kind of traveling through the world, and then
the gods were sort of looking down on them from
the top, that's going to be the players, and
sort of intervening to tweak their fate to push
them in one direction or another. And so that
was sort of the original concept of the game.
The original game was actually called Weirds,
like W -Y -R -D -F. And it was a neat concept,
but as it started to evolve and develop, I really
started to lean more into the... The asgard side
of things like like the gods and their powers
and making it more about the gods than about
the heroes The heroes still play a central role.
That's the central scoring mechanism in the game
But the original focus had kind of been on the
warriors and their story and how they go through
these epic things they do, with the gods kind
of adding a little bit here and there. And now
the final version of the game, Halls of Asgard,
is very much you take the role of a god and you
are embodying that god and you are looking down
at Midgard and trying to collect warriors in
your hall. And so, yeah, so it went through several
phases of development. I started playtesting
it. I think the first playtest was back in 2016
around Edmondson, back when I lived in Edmondson,
which is a city in the prairies here in Canada.
Since then it's been all over the place. I've
taken it to conventions and board game cafes
and so many people have had a chance to give
some feedback on the game and put some things
into it. So it's really exciting that it's finally
kind of come to fruition. I think sometimes you
know those books as well, but you read a book
and it's polished and it's finished and it's
beautiful and there's the whole story just beautifully
laid out for you. But that wasn't the creation
process for most of these things. They're often
quite messy. what you originally think it's going
to be is not always what it ends up being and
you're surprised sometimes and you're frustrated
other times but the the struggle and the glory
you know it all comes together and there it is.
Wow I mean it kind of boggles my mind how anyone
invented D &D let alone any other board game.
All the rules come into that because like we
still debate in our family playstation I just
need to start on zero or do you start on one?
So it's kind of like how did you find then kind
of like obviously the I guess what you call the
test play experience like where you do take it
to conventions and to workshops and and get the
feedback did you get some good feedback from
those who maybe didn't have much connection with
Norse mythology or knew about gods having or
goddesses having other halls because there is
evidence there in the sagas and poetics somewhere
because I do remember reading about someone talking
about all the other halls that the gods have,
not just Odin's, which everyone of course knows
of. You make a really good point. You're right,
there is mention of other halls. In fact, every
god in Asgard is sort of imagined has a hall.
We might take a guess that this was... bit of
a reflection of Viking society, right, where
the powerful individuals would have their own
hall and they would host events and it was this
big deal and that was sort of a sign of their
power authority. And so in Grimnest Mall, there
is a whole segment where Odin is been tortured
by this human king placed between two fires for
eight days. All sorts of fun things happen in
the Norse myths, but he decides it's a great
time to start reciting all of the different halls
of the gods. And in that, that's actually one
of the segments. really heavily on, because a
lot of the gods we don't know a ton about. And
I really wanted to draw forward. Obviously, you
got to have Odin, you got to have Thor, just
draw forward some of the gods that might be lesser
known to folks that are not as nerdy and deep
into the Norse messes maybe you and I are. So
with board games, same with my Althingi game
that you're really kind of drawing on two crowds.
There's like the board game crowd, and then there's
the Viking history crowd for Althingi. And the
meeting of those two crowds is kind of where
that project came to be. And so it'll be very
similar here. There's like the board game crowd.
People are coming at this because they love board
games. And then there'll be people coming at
it because they love like the Norse myths and
the Viking history aspect of it. So both of those
elements are really important in the development.
But the fundamental concept behind it is this
idea that And if you've watched Vikings history
TV show, if you've read anything Vikings, you
probably know when like when you die a glorious
death, you go to Valhalla, right? That's sort
of what never. But if you dig into the myths,
there is actually a line that specifically states
that half of the warriors also go to Freyja's
Hall, which is Suspended. And I got into some
arguments with people these playtesting sessions
saying that Freyja lives in Valhalla. And these
are exactly the kind of discussions that I love
nerding out of my book. Valhalla is technically
a valley in which sides and rules over it, but
her whole is called Cispermere and so halls of
Asgard. identify the hall of each god. And so
I've kind of played with that idea in that not
all the warriors go to Vaal Hall, but that the
warriors, according to the myths, go to both
Freya and Odin's Hall, that maybe all the gods
are trying to acquire warriors like Odin so that
they can face Hela and all the horrors of Ragnarok.
And so that's sort of the basis of the game,
is that each of the gods is sitting in their
hall and they're looking down in the mortal realm
and they're kind of picking and claiming heroes
off the board at different life stages to build
up their own power. One thing about this game
from a board game playing perspective is there's
a new type of game that's come up. I wouldn't
say it hasn't existed for a long time, but it's
become more popular as a cooperative style game.
And so Pandemic was the first really popular
cooperative style games where you're actually
working together as a team to accomplish something
rather than against each other, like in Risk
or Monopoly or some classic board games. This
game is a semi -cooperative and actually blends
elements of both the cooperative and the competitive.
games that you might have played. So you've got
this cooperative objective of trying to defeat
Hella. Because Hella, and I've just gotten nerd
out here and show a little bit of our work from
Hella. There's our Hella. So she's causing all
sorts of chaos and destruction and Midgard. And
so you're trying to hold her back. She's gaining
power. She takes mortals and steals them off
of the main board away from the gods. But you
are also a Norse god. Pretty proud. And so here's
Thor here. And you're trying to be the one who's
going to defeat Hela. So you're working together
to defeat Hela, but you really want to be the
hero that Sagas will be written about at the
end of the day. And so there's this really interesting
tension between working together to make sure
that Hela doesn't get tokens off the board, but
then also your divine wiles to set things up
so that you get the most heroes and the most
powerful heroes by the end of the game. Now of
course kind of like I'm gonna ask probably a
more mechanical question now because I'm curious
kind of like how many turns if it is based on
a turns kind of like strategy is kind of like
will the game revolve wrap up in because of course
I'm thinking to very simple board games that
I play with my daughter Naomi and I know we've
got one called Rollosaurus and she loves to win
that one because she gets a little golden dinosaur
card Yes, yes. It's making me think kind of like,
how do you signal Ragnarok? How do you decide
which God has won and do they get anything out
of it besides the glorious title? Absolutely.
And so the whole game is really interesting.
So here's our Midgard board. I'm going to try
to hold things up here a little bit. Here's our
Midgard board. And Midgard, of course, is like
Earth, where we live. It's the realm of the mortals.
And we've got three phases, the child, the warrior,
and the elder phase. And there's these tokens,
our hero tokens. Oh, wow. Midgard. So you're
literally watching the hero sort of progress
through Midgard. And there's a pool of tokens.
Once that pool of tokens has moved through Midgard,
the game's over. The number is off. Yeah, it'll
depend on the number of players. It plays three
to six players, and so you can actually play
up to six players, which is nice because a lot
of board games only play four max. But the number
of rounds will depend on how many players. However,
there'll be more rounds than a three player game,
but it'll go faster because there's three players.
And there will be longer rounds than a six player
game, but it'll have a similar play time because
there'll be fewer. the same number of tokens
are going through, right? And so our hero tokens
all come from different clans and so once again,
we've got some beautiful artwork here. We've
got the horse clan here, we've got the bear clan,
and we've got the raven clan. Oh, ravens, of
course. Have to have a raven with your sword.
That's right. And Hela's done such a great job.
She's got such a great background in design styles
and such. She's got them with all the different
kind of Norse motifs. But on the back, all the
warriors also have values. So a standard warrior
has a value of one. Yeah. And a heroic warrior
has a value of two. And of course, not everybody's
a hero. There are also heroes that on the back
have a value of zero. They are cowards. And so
you might unwittingly pick up an hour by accident.
And that is something that you may have to deal
with. But all warriors are useful in some way
because there's also From the mechanical perspective
a clan bonus if you get three members of the
same clan in your hall You get an extra set of
bonus points and so for every set of three you
get that can increase your final power and score
so Yeah, I don't mean the mechanical details
of the game, but that's sort of a nice little
overviews like you're a god you've got powers
you're messing with the mortals trying to pick
them up and pull them into your hall building
up your while everybody else is trying to do
the same, and then using your powers either cooperatively
or maybe not always so cooperatively if somebody
stabbed you in the back or promised they would
do something you didn't, and that's kind of where
the fun and the memorable aspect of this game
comes through. Well, thank you for those glimpsed
peeks at the actual parts of the game, the substance
of the game, and if the viewers and listeners,
as I say, listeners... on audio platforms, come
over to YouTube. You're missing out on all the
goodness. I haven't quite branched out too much
beyond YouTube and visual podcasting, but we're
happy with the places that we are slowly infiltrating
and slowly being discovered. It's very slowly,
but it's there. Oh, that was what I was going
to say. So I want to know more if you dive in.
very kindly to me and for you listeners about
the powers and the curses of these gods and goddesses
because I'm very curious like I can't think of
a curse for Freya besides as being too beautiful.
Oh yeah, not very the curse that you must bear
but you know so this was this is one of the funnest
parts of the game for me because once again from
the game player's perspective it's a semi -cooperative
game, that's an interesting fact. It's also asymmetric,
which means that every player has different powers.
In a game like Monopoly, and I use Monopoly only,
I don't think that's a terrible game, from a
board game player's perspective, but it's a good
example, people know it, everybody has the same,
the only thing that's different in Monopoly is
their little... you know, characters that are
moving around the board. Everybody has the same
abilities, everybody has the same powers, everybody
has the same objectives. In Halls of Asgard,
it's asymmetric, so every single god has a unique
set of powers and a curse, and this is where
I really got to dig into the myths and make these
really deep references to each of the different
characters. I intentionally set it up so that
you don't... I have to know Norse mythology to
play this game. You can enjoy this game for just
a board game. If you have no background context,
you can just say, ooh, what pretty art, you know,
play it for the mechanic and it's tons of fun.
But if you are a fan of Norse mythology and I
have to credit Hello with this too, she added
all these extra little elements and layers that
I was picking out as she was sending me in the
draft that are just little tiny hints and nods
to different cyber references and things there.
So I will let you pick a God and we'll dive into
that one. Which one do you want to do Odin, Thor,
Freya, Heimdall, Eden, or Loki? So here's Freya.
Okay. And she's got two powers and she's got
a curse. All the cards have a similar layout.
So they'll have the sort of character illustration,
and then they have their hall with the names,
the Cess Remnu here, and they have spaces for
all their tokens. The children and elders are
kept in one section and the warriors are kept
in another section because they're actually worth
more points. in the game I had like token spaces,
like little circles, but Hela actually worked
the token spaces into the artwork. So for all
of them, they're like actually an integrated
part of the artwork. And so we've got two things
here. I'll see if you can read that one or maybe
guess what those ones are. The one is, she's
crying. What does Freya cry? Oh, she cries tears
of, I want to say gold, but then I want to say
anger at the same time. So one of her powers
is tears of gold. And so Hell has this beautiful
illustration of Freya just like weeping these
tears of gold. And what tears of gold allows
you to do is when you go to claim a war, you
have to roll the dice. you have to hit a certain
number in order to claim the hero. Tears of Gold
allows you to re -roll that dice. And so if you
roll a low number and you're not happy with it,
you can use your Tears of Gold power to re -roll
that roll. Tears of Gold as a reference to the
mist, this was something that was very commonly
known about Freya. And if you know anything about
Freya, this is probably one thing you know. If
you're into Viking stuff is that she would cry
Tears of Gold and... there was a lot of kennings
uh so instead of saying gold in a viking poem
they would often say phrase tears and was very
commonly understood that just meant gold and
vikings loved doing this in their poetry these
little riddles that hinted at the myths um and
so there's all sorts of other interesting kennings
and there's double kennings that are like references
to references uh but tears of gold is something
that um you really know now uh you might think
that our other power has to do with the beautiful
necklace, bring some in. But I actually took
it a different direction. I had her second power
to be Valshamer, which is the Norse word for
her falcon cloak. And yes. Oh, that detail. Freyja
has a whole assortment of really awesome, cool
things in her arsenal, which Loki is always trying
to, quote unquote, borrow for whatever Loki grew
up to. And yes. And so Freyja's falcon cloak
is the other power that she has and there is
no mechanism in the game for God's exchanging
heroes like trading them back and forth except
for this. So Orianna is sort of in charge of
all the trades because she's got this falcon
cloak that can allow players to trade. So if
she wants to trade with somebody that's easy
they can trade as long as the other person wants
to they can make that happen but if other people
want to trade they have to come to Freya saying
Freya Freya please let us use your falcon cloak
and say well I'll let you use my falcon cloak.
such and such and such. So there we go. So those
are two powers. And once again, they're really,
from a mechanical standpoint, you don't have
to understand any of the background story. But
if you understand the myths, you realize this
is really cutting into what we know about her
and digging into that. and of course the curse
must have the curse and so her curse is goldless
and we know this about Freyja that she loved
treasures and she loved gold and she does all
sorts of things to get more wealth and so her
curse is that at Ragnarok she must have one member
of each of the four clans or else she loses points
at the end of the game and so Other gods are
just sort of collecting whatever might be convenient,
still trying to get the set bonuses, still trying
to get the powerful ones. Freya has this additional
challenge that she must also collect one member
from each of the clans or else pay the penalty.
So, but that's one example. And like I said,
we've got a few other references in here. You
can see in El's lap, she's petting a cat. We
know that. Freya was carried around by a chariot
pulled by cats, and so Hela just has such a deep
insight into the mist. So much of her work is
centered on that, that she was just brilliantly
able to tie in all these amazing little Easter
eggs for anybody who's into Norse mythology.
Oh, that's wonderful. I completely forgot about
the kind of like the feather cloak, and of course,
as you say, kind of like her lust. episode with
four dwarfs to get Brisingham and all along.
Connection to treasures and all things shiny.
All right then let's go to Loki next. Okay fantastic
let's do it. Loki is always a crowd favorite
and I have to warn you this is in the rules as
well. Loki is the most difficult card to play
so it's not in the suggested like first time
playthrough. You're welcome to play obviously
whatever you wanted to but the first time playthrough
does not include Loki because Loki and we can
see him here. handsome fellow is a little bit
tricky to operate because you need to know all
the other God's powers and you need to influence
them to let you use their powers on their behalf,
on their behalf. So for Loki, we've got all sorts
of little references tied in here. One of them
is C, which is... translates to magic, but I've
translated here as to shapeshifter. And so Loki
is known for changing forms. And so what a shapeshifter
allows him to do is to use another God's power.
The catch is though that God has to give him
permission. If they don't give him permission.
And so Loki is spending the entire game going
around saying, oh, Thor, Thor, please let me
use your hammer. Oh, Freya, Freya, can I use
your cloak? I promise I'll use it for good and
not for bad. And so this is a really interesting
dynamic in the game because you're not really
able to directly influence things in a way like
Thor, who's just very straightforward. He's like,
add points to the roll or stop another god from
doing something. He's just. one stop and it's
done. With Loki, you're always having to scheme
in the background and trying to find the alliances
and find ways to make things work out for you.
So that's his first power. His second power is
trickster. Obviously, we know Loki is constantly
getting himself into and then hopefully out of
trouble. What Loki can do is if a hero gets claimed
off the board, Loki can swap that hero for one
in his hall. He can kind of steal that hero and
swap it for another one. And so this has to do
with A, getting strong heroes, and B, with the
set collection mechanic. That's going to be really
important because he can sort of influence and
control that. And he's got to be careful though.
Because if he takes somebody's hero, they're
probably not going to let them use their powers.
And so he's got this really fine balance, and
all the characters do, in terms of wanting to
work together to defeat Hela, but also needing
to kind of fulfill their own goals. And then
his curse, drips of venom, we know that's a reference
to Ragnarok. Loki's luck runs out eventually
and he's in an underground cave. He's bound with
the intestines of his own sons and a serpent
is tied on a rock above him to eternally drip,
you know, this kind of radioactive poison onto
his bare flesh. Very pleasant. Anyways, if Loki
rolls a two, sort of like snake bites, if he
rolls a two, then no god can intervene to help
him. He loses his current, he fails his claim.
Whereas in every other part of the game, if a
god gets a bad roll, they can always call on
the other gods to come and help them. But if
Loki rolls a two, that's his curse. The gameplay
passes on and he can't get any help. So he's
looking out there. It's really inspired. I really
like his work about how he made the two kind
of like with the two dots on the Kind of like
a Numicon dice, as we call it in the UK, where
he's doing dots as numbers. Yes. Yeah, with the
fangs. I really like that. It's inspiring. And
I really want to stress, if any of this sounds
complicated, there's some really interesting
things you can do with it, but the game play
itself is not extremely complicated. It's very
approachable. It's quick to learn. The rounds
go quickly as well. But if you really get into
it, you learn the characters and the powers,
you can have a lot of fun with it. And there
can be some really surprisingly intricate strategies.
There's a few play tests where a roll would happen
and one god would trigger a power to save the
roll and another god would intervene to undo
this thing that just happened and another god
would and that there would be like six or seven
powers would get triggered and sort of work all
together in order to. either have this role succeed
or not. And there's different levels of the game.
So the beginner level, Hell is a bit weaker.
In the more advanced version, she's stronger.
And depending on whether you play the weaker,
the stronger version, how experienced the players
are, the gameplay itself ends up being more cooperative,
more competitive. And it's really fun for me
as a designer to see a group of people play a
once and then play a second time. Because if
they beat Hell in the first time, they think,
oh, we're so great. We're so grand. You know,
we can just work for ourselves. And then they
get smoked. the second game because they're not
working together enough. And then vice versa,
if they get beaten the first game and they're
sort of like nipping at each other, you know,
and, you know, you know, kind of being goofy
and interrupting people and stuff like that,
too. And then not working together in the second
game, then they're in a panic. Oh, we got to
beat hell the second time. Let's work together.
Let's be super cooperative. And so, yeah, just
I love the story that gets told at the table
and how people kind of embody the different gods,
because the powers really do inspire you to act
a certain way. Right. Like Loki kind of has to
be a bit skinny and a bit like a bit of a salesman.
Thor is kind of like staunch. People will call
on him to use his hammer to boost their role,
but he also has a power where he can stop other
gods from using their role. So if Loki's up to
no good and causing nonsense, Thor can just kind
of put his fist down and stop him from doing
what he's trying to do. So yeah, it's really
neat. It's been a ton of fun. And I have put
this out to people in terms of like, is there
a game that's like... very similar. A lot of
times you'll say like, oh, it's like, you know,
a ticket to ride, but with this, and this really
has some unique mechanics that are not overly
complicated, very approachable, but that feel
pretty fresh. And I have yet to find a game that
feels similar to it. So, yeah, I mean, as we're
talking about the only card game I could think
of. rings a bell with and this has taken me back
many years back before Covid because it's a game
I used to play with my first D &D group of friends
was Unstable Unicorns because they had their
own powers but they also had their own ways of
manipulating other players and taking other cards
and whatnot. but I kind of like really really
am impressed with how well you actually reflect
the dynamic of the Oseer Pantheon because they
do also have to work together but then they also
are kind of like they've all got their own agendas
and schemes and yeah I mean I keep thinking back
to reading the first I think one of the I think
it was a myth in maybe it was in Kevin Crossley
Holland's books or telling it at least of kind
of like where Odin disguise himself and finds
Thor across the river and he tries to have an
insults match with no one are thinking you're
not really nice are you Odin really? And I don't
think Thor ever figures it out, too. He's not
too bright, but he seems to entertain himself
by just insulting his son for verses and verses
and verses. It's interesting you bring up the
story in the translations. Actually, Kevin Crossley
Holland's translation was the first one that
really got me into the Norse myths. He does a
great job of staying true to the myths, but also
presenting it in a presentable way, because it
can be really confusing. I think as Western readers,
we're used to, and I know you're a big book fan
as well, but we're really used to this narrative
arc of, you know, the introduction and the building
tension and the climax and the resolution. Our
idea of what a narrative in a story is, is not
reflected a lot of the times in the North Smiths.
And I think there's a few reasons for that. One
is that this was a oral culture. They didn't
have, they didn't write books, they didn't do
written histories. And so, Stories weren't just
entertainment for them. That was actually their
history. That's how they passed on their culture,
their beliefs. And so we'll find examples. Well,
we were talking about Grymnus Mall, where this
is the halls. You know, it seems odd to us. And
if this was a movie sequence, we'd be scratching
our heads to have a burn between two fires. And
then he just goes on this rant about all the
different halls that are in Asgard, listing them
off and who lives in them. But this was a really
common structure for and is a common structure
for oral society's information. is not in books,
right? We don't have textbooks. So we need to
present the information somehow and wrapping
it in the narrative of some sort of story, often
put it in verse, which allows people to remember
it more easily. If it's in rhythm and meter,
if you miss a section, you can hear it, right?
And so there's ways that they can make it easier
to remember, easier to recall, easier to repeat
accurately. And so, yeah, the stories that end
up getting told there are interesting too. Kevin
Crossley -Holland's translation is amazing and
I would just say to any listener who wants an
introduction to the Norse myths, it's great.
There are a lot of, he has a great balance of
letting certain questions just remain unanswered
because you kind of have to while you're reading
through the Norse myths. There's so many confusing
things and things that don't really make sense.
For example, are the giants bigger than the gods?
Are the gods bigger than humans? It's like the
size scale doesn't really seem to make any sense.
And I will say I think Giants is a mis -translation
into English. It's common standard, but I don't
think that's really how the Vikings viewed Jotun,
who are from Jotunheim. We often call Giants
and agree on that too. But yeah, yeah. So anyways,
if you want to go to the source on this stuff
from the Norse mythology perspective, I think
you may have some suggestions too, but I think
it's tough to beat Kevin Crossley -Holland's
translation. Yes, I've got his kind of like his
penguin book of Norse myths and then I've got
this beautiful kind of like lino printed children's
illustrated version, which I'm still waiting
for Naomi to have patience on. Interesting. I
mean, she knows who Thor is and she can name
me on there. I was kind of like, who does Thor
use his hammer on? And she was like, I don't
know. I didn't want to confuse her too much with
her, because then she'll be asking me like, what's
the outing? She's very full of questions. But
at the minute, as a clever five and a half year
old, she is with her obviously going to a a Church
of England school, I don't know how much they'd
be impressed or not if she started spouting about
Thor and Odin, whilst they're trying to sing
amen and hymns and kumbaya and all that jazz.
It's funny you mentioned that because in Canada
here, at least I'm from Canada, and there's definitely
been a resurgence of popularity of names like
Thor and Odin. I've seen the kids in school,
which is great and all. Whenever I see a kid
named Thor, I get a beautiful name, I love it,
but I'm also a little bit like Do you know anything
about Odin in the North? He's not the most pleasant
guy, but yeah, it's fun. Well, I'm sure I've
come across kids called Loki in the UK. I'm sure
there was one in a nursery before she left. I'm
sure there was another kid called Thunder, but
I can't quite say whether that was a North influence
or just because they like the name Thunder. But
the other thing I was going to point out was
especially the mechanic with Loki being a shapeshifter
and how, at least in this game, you've kind of
allowed him to impersonate, shape -shift into
other gods in order to use their powers. It makes
me think that actually, in the source material
that we have, he never actually impersonates
any of them. He's always shape -shifting into
either a female form or an animal or just someone
else entirely. He never actually impersonates
anyone else, which is an interesting kind of...
view, or at least use of shape shifting. Oh,
totally. Yeah. And I mean, the sort of the motif
of low -key sort of like boring other people's
tools or stealing them or whatever is pretty
common. You're right. That is a really good point.
I never thought about that. He didn't actually
impersonate other gods. I think it's a fairly
common... theme and myths in general like just
even outside of Norse myths is a god appearing
to be somebody else and then deceiving them.
I know that happens all the time in the Greek
myths but one thing I will say and you touched
a little bit on before on sort of the under representation
of the goddesses in Asgard and so I really wanted
to include uh uh goddesses as well obviously
Freya uh was the inspiration for this game in
a sense because that line about her receiving
half the warriors was the inception of the whole
idea um uh there's Eden as well who has the apples
of eternal youth and she's got some really interesting
powers she's a bit more of a difficult um card
to play as well because her powers have to do
with like regrowth and regeneration and then
you're often like regenerating other players
but you want to sort of use that with discretion
to sort of benefit yourself or make sure that
you're getting a good deal out of helping other
people. But even magic itself. We have different
understandings and concepts of gender and identity
now, but in Viking times, it was very much seen
that magic or seed was very much like a female
domain and had a female energy to it, which is
interesting because both Odin and Loki are constantly
invading magic, trying to acquire magical items,
trying to acquire magical knowledge, oftentimes
like shape -shifting themselves, in Loki's case,
into female creatures like the mare who gives
birth to this. Yeah, there's a lot of background
context and what's fun for me to see is some
casual board game groups who've never read the
Norse Myths having fun with this game and then
also seeing people who like love Norse mythology
and who are just sort of drooling all over the
different illustrations and references like that
too. So it's my hope that yeah, this game can
maybe open up the door to Norse mythology for
some casual board game and can maybe bring some
folks who love board game or Norse mythology
into board games because that's a really neat
community too. Yeah, yeah, I mean, the line about
Freyja, it's one I've been battling with personally,
because as I may have told you or may not have
told you in the past, or I've probably definitely
named it in various episodes, I've been researching
Valkyries independently in my own time, somehow
barbed my way into academic circles and how they
want me to write a paper. It's taken two years,
but I think I've reached the finish line. I'm
imminently waiting. Amazing. Move from... what
was it conditional approval to firm approval
and then it's done but one of the feedback both
in the peer review and in the editors feedback
was kind of like you've mentioned how Freya kind
of like claims half the dead where does this
line come from can you name the actual source
I'm like um no because none of the books I read
that mention it name it either they all say Snowy
Stilson mentioned it from a poem but I don't
find the name of the poem and of course Snowy
Stilson is now quite debatable as a source because,
of course, he was a man, a Christian, and he
wrote it 200 years after everyone believed and
told these tales. He had his own agenda, and
he wrote them down, and that's why we have fewer
tales of the goddesses and more of the gods.
To put it simply, there he was in listeners.
So a lot of the stuff that he was aware of and
then didn't put in directly, we've lost time
and myth and memory. So we don't really know
how much more of Freya had than kind of like
his balancing act with Odin beyond those little
snippets and it's teasing us as historians and
those with just gender interests in the future.
Oh 100 % and also the recognition that I mean
what we have even as materials Snorri included
is you know probably a fraction of a percent
of all that would have been available at the
time of the culture and everything like you said
is filtered through history, it's filtered through
the lens of Christianity, it's filtered through
like a male dominant lens, it's yeah there's
so many things that we're missing so we're really
just you know Pulling threads here, we don't
have a full picture. I've got an interesting
point of discussion for you, if you'd like, in
relation to the game. So as I was going through
and designing the game, we've got Thor. He's
got his hall, and Bill Skilner is the name of
his hall. We've got Odin and Valhalla, obviously.
Heimdall has a hall named Ingenbjörg. Eden has
a hall named Edelvall. And Freya is in Cestrum
here. Loki, where does Loki live? And I could
not for the life of me, I have contacted academics,
I've reached out to lots of my intelligent friends
like yourself and other podcast hosts like Siobhan
Clark from the Miss Legend of the Lord podcast,
which is also nice to call someone you should
check out. And I could not nail down if Loki
had a hall or not. And I checked my references,
my translations, I couldn't find anything. And
so I had to settle on something a little bit.
It's maybe not a full definition, but in the
game, I made his hall. I called it Frondling
Hall. which is a reference to Fronting Falls,
which is the waterfall that the gods capture
Loki in once they decide that he needs to be
finished and that they're going to trap him.
And so they find him as a fish jumping in the
pool below Fronting Falls. And so I decided to
make his hall Fronting Hall. So there's a bit
of a creative license there, but I needed to
give him a hall. So that was an interesting discussion
point. I don't know if you have ever heard or
have any idea of like a reference to Loki's halt,
but I couldn't dig without. No, I mean, I've
read a number of what we call Norse fantasy books,
which feature heavily on Loki, both from his
good side and his bad side. And they obviously
be questioning kind of like whether you do like
him or you don't. You kind of do equally kind
of don't. But then you want to kind of get why
he gets why he is because of the way he gets
treated. Long story short, no, but I know they
do all give him a hole because of course he married
Bigin, which is a very forgotten goddess all
together. We know very, very, very, very little
about her besides her name and the fact that
she had two sons and was a devoted wife to Loki
even after they punished him with that snake.
And she's the one there holding the bowl and
catching the poison and then putting it aside
and letting Loki rise for a bit. But yeah, it's
an interesting point. There is so much we would
love to know more of, so much we would love to
know more of, but in a strange way I think this
ambiguity, this vagueness, this lack of concrete
definition like Christianity of course has its
Bible and has its Old Testament and New Testament
and all the palms and all the prayers and the
Vatican's probably got tons more that they won't
let anyone read for whatever reason. Yeah, they've
kind of like, because that came through very
much a written culture, but the Norse pantheon
and their beliefs and their practices and their
religious or kind of like, just kind of like,
almost like folklore -esque, depending on how
strong it was in different time zones, it didn't
have that. So it kind of, it did fade into time.
And I remember kind of like again working on
my Valkyrie article and I was focusing very much
on Brynhills and how very much she's depicted
in modern day fiction, kind of like how we are
trying to readdress the balance of kind of how
she wasn't just an angry woman scorned by man
and therefore the bloody betrayal and death etc,
how kind of like at least in the poetic edda
there is kind of like at the end of No, actually
at the end of her, there's a set of poetry before
her, which is Helgi Hunding's Bane, although
there's two or three poems by Helgi Hunding's
Bane, because of course they had different versions,
and so they wrote the next quote. All culture
would edit and amend as it was told orally, because
no Scales probably ever told it the same. They
didn't all have the same script, they just had
their own edition, their own flair. But one mentions
about how Helgi Hunding's Bane and his Valkyrie
lover Tigran when they died they got reincarnated
and Helgi was named Helgi something else but
she got a new name of Kara but of course when
these things were written down we don't know
who wrote them down why they wrote them down
what era it was written down how long ago it
was written down we know nothing these anonymous
people have a lot to offer or a lot of questions
to ask when we all find them in the afterlife
and where the universe we go to next And it kind
of, I said, oh, yes, it's an old wives tale about
reincarnation. And Kara also had her own poem
called The Song of Kara, but that is now forever
lost. And I'm like, why have you mentioned this?
I'm not kind of like, where is The Song of Kara
now? Why didn't you write it down? Why did someone
not find it? And I'm just like, oh, what, what?
I mean, Grid Hill, of course, did have her own
poem in her own right, albeit set kind of like
posthumously after the main events called Help.
Brynhildr's hell ride, because she goes down
to hell to sort herself out and reclaim Sigurd,
about thinking she had a poem of her own and
then this Kara, this Kara, Sigrun, she had a
poem of her own. Who knew how many of the poems
there were of these kind of like warrior women,
Valkyries, all goddesses alone that we just don't
know. And this is why we need a time machine,
yes. We do need a time machine, but then we'll
probably find out lots more that we're probably
getting horribly wrong. but one story short the
ambiguity and these gaps are perfect for you
as creatives and for authors and for artists
like the one you've got on the game of course
the one that did same one who did the covers
on your little lovely um watch gatewatch series
it's because we've got no one to tell us no no
no they didn't do that no no no that that's not
true um we got history at least to kind of because
how the real people lived in terms of mythology
it's like an open sample you can build whatever
you want and no one can tell you otherwise which
is why no Viking game is the same no Viking fantasy
book is the same they've all got gods doing different
things but the same names same personalities
to a degree and hence why I am just forever a
Viking there because there's so much more to
explore. The bottom list there's no end to the
yeah exactly explorations and that and the retellings
and you brought up some retellings of the the
story of Loki kind of from the perspective, he's
been a very popular character. You know, the
gospel of Loki, you know, there's a kick things
off. Oh, Joanna, she's she's brilliant. And then
there's been lots of other retellings, too. But
I think that's an important part of engagement
with these stories. It's not just like it's a
static story that sits there and watch it and
we nod our head, we walk away. It's really a
conversation, how we're engaging with them. And
I think what we see in the mist is a reflection
more of. ourselves and our society and the problems,
the challenges that we have. And I think that's
the other problem too, is that, you know, when
Snorri Sturluson was doing his translations,
what he was seeing in the myths, how he's interpreting
them, kind of what he was identifying as important.
already related to had a lot to do with the,
you know, the society and culture, religion,
everything that was happening to him at that
time. And so, yeah, I think once we can get past
the idea that there's this perfect static, you
know, true 100 % right version of all these things,
and that this is sort of an evolving conversation.
This is a piece of culture. This is something
we've sort of worked even to modern day society.
I mean, the Norse myths of showed up in so many
different interesting ways. That's a more meaningful
way to engage with this than trying to dig through
and find that one, you know, solid piece of 100
% true evidence. Though it is fun to do that
and go in those rabbit holes and try to try to
dig those things up. Absolutely. I mean, of course,
we all kind of like, no, deviousness. I hope
you can all agree now that Vikings did not have
horned helmets. In terms of kind of the mythology,
like I remember coming across many years ago
and academic and I've forgotten his name, it's
off the top of my head. But he did like the whole
massive book, literally, and it did get published
and it was like over a hundred pounds to buy
academically, I'm like no. But he basically looked
at all the literary evidence and found that basically
Thor does not make lightning and yet we all connect
Thor with storms and lightning and it's those
things that we add onto them. that we add on
to that as you say give relevance and meaning
to our time now such as as you're thinking of
like Loki has had a renaissance as a rise of
an anti -hero because anti -heroes weren't really
a concept or an idea centuries ago kind of like
if you're a bad guy you're a bad guy and of course
that's why when he first turns up in the Marvel
comics he's absolutely kind of like dastardly
evil and full of wicked lies and plans and epic
monologues he kind of like I'll get you next
time Thor and all that jazz. I recently watched
the Loki series that Marvel did and I thought
I was actually really impressed by the end of
it because I thought that is such a deep dive
into that character. the office and Morpheus
and Morpheus kind of like, do you enjoy hurting
people? Do you really? And looking kind of like,
kind of like bats off in Sony ways. And eventually
just kind of like, it's okay, no, I don't. But
then they hurt me and it's not fair and it's
not nice. And kind of like, oh my gosh, you're
just like a bully child. And it's putting ourselves
or emphasizing kind of like things that we relate
to, such as kind of like bullying and power control.
or that kind of I'm being the odd one and being
the black sheep and being different. And certainly
kind of like with my research into Brynhild,
kind of like the rise of kind of like the strong
female character and shield maidens. But that's
a whole other topic because I persisted on the
Valkyrie route because it's mythology and I can
discuss it more. I don't know enough history
to do touch on to your maidens confidently. And
it just helps all these additions reconnect them,
help them. transition to all this time, centuries
after their religion as a whole has basically
faded to dust. They're still being told, just
like the Greek myths, and I often say the Norse
gods are effectively human, they just haven't
had access to life -longing fruit, but then that's
why doctors recommend apples every day, I think,
and very powerful toys, very nice magical items
that help them do their magical things, because
otherwise they would just be normal humans, I
think. Well, and to quote the Havamel, I mean,
kinsmen die, cattle die, but the reputation of
a famous man lives on, right? It's like these
ministers continuing to kind of reverberate through
the centuries. And I think it's just because
they're good stories and they're interesting
characters, and they represent maybe something
deeper than just the culture that they came from,
but maybe, you know, the human experience. And
I mean, now we're getting really deep into things.
But yeah, no, I think there's a lot of reasons
why folks like us get sucked into this and just
can't learn enough or ever kind of get to the
bottom of things. This is sort of the fun and
sort of the adventure. And you mentioned so beautifully
about this idea of like embodiment and people
sort of seeing themselves in the midst. And I
think that's one of the neatest things of the
game for me was just to kind of see people kind
of step into these roles, almost like, you know,
you mentioned D &D, like a role playing game.
you know, in a sense, kind of playing out this
story. And it's like, why don't the gods always
work together? It's like, well, I'm not gonna
work with Thor because I wanted to use his hammer,
but he wouldn't let me because he wanted to use
it. And it's these little petty things that end
up making these sort of like epic moments in
the game where, you know, maybe there's a betrayal
or there's, you know, somebody finally gives
in and joins the other side or decides to cooperate
or interrupt things. So yeah, we're creating
little mini sagas here. Well, it is. It's a beautiful
reflection of the way that Pantene at least appears
to work from all the different sources and retellings
that we've had over the centuries. I remember
reading, of course, my favorite myth, which is
the Lay of Thrym involving Thor getting involved
in a wedding dress. that have this huge debate
in the hall about what to do because this giant's
turned up and he said he'll build them a wall
but he wants Freya and the sun and the moon and
of course Freya quite rightly doesn't want to
go and then wants to see even the sun and the
moon either and even Loki doesn't really have
an idea for it but it's him Dal, it's him Dal
who suggests the whole pudding and he goes you're
not going to like it though but I have an idea
he goes all right try me I'm like yeah I don't
like the idea I love how he's like I have an
idea you're not going to like it Because they
have all got their own agendas and motives in
the way. And of course, I think certainly kind
of like in the way the Marvel Cinematic Universe
has represented that pantheon, they've made owning
almost too palatable. for my taste he's very
much just just an old grandad really. Whereas
in kind of at the main sources he is so manipulative,
I mean he betrays Frigga his wife so many times
it's ridiculous but then the Greek gods do it
just as much so I can't really complain. But
kind of like in modern Norse fantasy retellings
that we represented me often not just manipulative,
but he's also cruel and he's also kind of like
super paranoid. He needs to know everything.
It's why he's got wisdom and he has to have all
the knowledge. That's why he keeps a guy's head
in a jar because it's another way of gaining
knowledge. But then I do sometimes find that
they represent him kind of like the paranoia
kind of like is stemming because he knows the
end is coming and he wants everyone to survive,
but he can't. That's why he's doing all that
he does to get the dead on. and I think that's
one interesting thing that I definitely found
within the books or at least one particular book
I was looking at in terms of Brunnhilde which
came out the year I actually got to go to Norway
which was The Valkyrie by Kate Hartfield which
I highly recommend anyone read. You don't even
have to know who Sigurd the Fafnir, Sigurd the
Fafnir Slayer is just to read it plunges you
straight in but it shows him almost like Manically
manifesting and encouraging humanity to do more
and more wars, more and more battles in order
for him to get more and more warriors up to Valhalla.
So he's kind of like not just the god of war,
he makes war. He makes it happen. He's the trigger
point. He's kind of like the ill -informed advisor
was springing to one king's ear and then doing
the same to the next. So he's kind of like manipulating
humanity on that level as well as manipulating
the gods in various ways and shapes. But yeah,
the game absolutely sounds fascinating. I can't
wait to play it. The Kickstarter is, as I said,
now live. Yes, we are live. So I guess, touching
on Kickstarter, have you got any stretch goals
in mind, or is it clearly just getting the game
out into hands? So yeah, great question. So oftentimes
we give our back to Kickstarter. I'll just give
a quick... idea of how that works, is it's a
crowdfunding model. And in board games, this
is really common, and it's not common in other
industries. Even like book publishing, for example,
it's usually the big publishing houses who are
putting the big products out. But in board games,
it's really unique as a community. The biggest
board games, the best board games, the ones that
are the most popular are being crowdfunded. And
what that means is that people who play board
games are going and saying, yes, this is a game
I want to play. It's not being decided by some
CEO in a boardroom somewhere that this will be
the most popular game of the year. It really
is. got the power of the people, which is great.
So the way Kickstarter works is if you back at
Kickstarter, you commit some funds towards the
goal for a certain tier of reward. In this case,
it would be the game and that would fund the
project so that it can get published, it can
be distributed and that you can get a copy in
your hands. There is a time frame on these. I
am ambitiously going to try to fund this and
fulfill it within a year. That is my goal. That
might sound like a long time, but Kickstarter
projects, if you understand sort of how taking
distribution, global trade networks work can
be fast. Kickstarters can take sometimes up to
three, four, five, six years to fulfill, which
is frustrating from that perspective, but is
really just the reality of how things are set
up. And obviously there's a lot of chaos and
a lot of shifting happening now too. So pending,
you know, things going as smoothly as they possibly
can, that will be the goal. Sometimes Kickstarters
are all stretch goals, so we'll say if we get
a certain amount of money, we'll add this, we'll
do that. I'm avoiding that only because, like
I said, this project is going to Kickstart Little
Hammer Games. This is kind of the initial fledgling
project, and I really want to keep things as
simple as possible. So I'm calling it a no -nonsense
project here. We're just going to get the game,
we're going to get it done. I'm not going to
add fancy bells and whistles at this point in
time. There might be future Kickstarters for
perhaps expansions, additions, other games. But
for now, I just really want to get this one up
and running, get it into people's hands as soon
as possible. and you can get yourself a copy
if you're back at Kickstarter. Also, yes, Asgard.
Yeah. Well, the link will be at the bottom of
this video in the description, so please do go
hit it, guys. Throw some money in. I mean, Kickstarter's
quite user -friendly in that you can just throw
money in without actually claiming the benefit
of the products that you're supporting. So if
you just like Joshua's work and want to keep
him going, please do so. I certainly will. Because
I have a collection of games even, like I have
all thingy. Modern Horizon, even though I have
no one to play with, I still have it just because
it's an awesome game and it's cool artwork. And
at some point I might be able to explain who
these people are to my ear, because of course
it was based on historical figures, which is
really cool. I guess we should, of course, as
you say, give some credit and some air time to
the wonderful artists you've got doing all these
amazing cards and the mats and the tokens and
everything. So how did you first come across
that? So I just, the internet, I don't know if
it was Instagram or what, but this artist kept
popping up and her work was sort of hand painted.
It was so vivid. It wasn't traditional Viking
style, but it had, it was reminiscent of, you
know, the different eras, you may be familiar
with, like, gelling style and earned style and
things like that. And I was fascinated. My head
was so deep into this stuff. I immediately recognized
like this artist. has a much deeper understanding
of sort of the art forms, of the myths, of the
stories, of everything. And so she's got an incredible
range of pieces, which you can find on, I think
she has a website, DeviantArt is where I first
found her, and she's got prints for purchase
there. But it just seems from the myths. So for
example, you mentioned from Trinsquida, the scene
where Thor dresses up as a bride to retrieve
Freya's hammer. She's got an amazing series of
images sort of depicting that and she does an
excellent job. I think she's got a soft spot
for Loki. Loki always has a sort of... place
in a lot of her illustrations. But no, it was
incredible. So she had done the covers for my
fantasy trilogy about the Troll Hunters in Gatewatch.
That's the 10 -3 saga. And I loved her work.
And this was quite a while ago that we sort of
initiated this project. But I'd love to do a
board game with you. I love your style, if you're
interested. She heard the concept. She's like,
I love this. This is cool. And so we worked on
that for a few years. And now here it is. So
I would say. Definitely worth checking out. I
think her tag on DeviantArt is Helenim and we'll
include a link maybe to that in the show notes
as well. Yes, we will because we love supporting
all creatives of anything Nordic and artists
is definitely one of them. I know the few times
I do get to go to a Comic Con not that there
are many in the north of England now because
of the way Covid shut lots of big things down.
I always get excited when I find someone who
does anything remotely Nordic. So, not that I
have an office or even a wall of my own, I'm
currently sat in the corner of my lounge, not
the full hall that you see behind me. This is
the price you pay for having children, you have
to give up any geeky space, so all my geeky stuff
is in my wardrobe. Waiting for the day I can
afford to hire my own office and make it my own
studio. But that's a dream, that is a dream,
until I have my virtual Val Hall, so that'll
do. So how long is this Kickstarter open for,
for people to throw money in? So yeah, it launches
today. It's going to wrap up on April 30th. So
we've got 24 days to make it happen. If we reach
the goal, product is funded we're going to make
it and if it doesn't then I go back to the drawing
board and then maybe return to it maybe go on
to the next thing we'll see but I'm hopeful we
can make this happen it's it's a smaller scale
project as far as kickstarters and I encourage
you if you are interested in this kind of thing
especially board games there's a lot of really
neat stuff it's also a bit of a dangerous game
surfing around Kickstarter because there's so
many awesome things that you might want to get
your hands into and become a part of. But yeah,
that's the campaign. So all of April, we'll be
running it starting today. And that's your chance.
Once the Kickstarter is over, that's kind of
it. So it's your chance to hop on board if this
sounds like it's something that's up your alley,
or if you have somebody in your life who, like
Becky and I, are obsessed with Vikings and Norse
myths, and you've bought them all the other stuff,
well, here's something different. Yep, absolutely.
I mean, it's almost like very much an alternative
form of the actual game itself in that we all
have to join the hall before the door's shut.
We'll be a hero with you. So are you going to
any conventions, game shows, anything like that
during the Kickstarter launch? Not during the
Kickstarter launch. I was at Terminal City tabletop
convention in Vancouver back in March, had a
wonderful time, lots of awesome folks there.
So I won't have boots on the ground anywhere
out here in April, though I might be making a
little guest appearance at Calgary. Comic -con
but not in an official capacity as little hammer
games just to go for fun But but yeah, no main
place to find it would be on on Kickstarter if
you want to know more about the game you feel
like you haven't got Enough of a sense of how
the gameplay works There is an amazing rule video
by Ryan from how to play whose channel is amazing
board game coverage rule reviews He will give
you an entire overview of how the game works
including the rules There's also some other designer
interviews you'll find this one in one of the
future updates throughout the campaign as well.
And there's a board game review from an Australian
board gamer, Hodges, who's got a banger question.
So yeah, if you want to learn more about the
game, kind of see on the table, see more of the
art, check out the Kickstarter page. And there's
some videos there where you can see not only
images of the game, but some videos of how to
play and stuff like that too. Brilliant. Well,
as I've said from the word go, I will definitely
be throwing my pennies worth in because I love
you and I love your work. So it's all good. And
I guess We're going to wrap this up because it's
very late my time, albeit earlier in your time,
and we very much could talk about Viking stuff
for absolutely hours just because we just connect
on such a Norse level. But we will spare the
ears and views of our viewers and listeners for
hours and hours. But thank you so much for coming
back to our Conversations podcast. I wish you
the best of luck with the Kickstarter. I'll do
my little best to mention it in all my various
platforms and circles. Not that I have that many
friends who go for it, but you never know. All
it'll help is just spreading the word. And we
will hopefully get a physical copy in the near
future. Thank you so much, Becky. I really appreciate
having you on. No worries. We'll hopefully see
you again soon. Thank you very much. Thanks.
Thank you very much for listening to this episode.
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