WEBVTT

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Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,

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otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am

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a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the

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history, culture and mythology of the Viking

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Age and I have been on an endless quest for more

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ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North

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with those who have been inspired by Viking Age

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history and North mythology in their creative

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works or those who have studied the sagas and

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archaeology and review. how such subjects are

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being presented to modern audiences today. If

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you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla

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and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome

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everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast. This

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is the very first episode, and I apologize for

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being so late, of the 2020 -2026 content. season

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when I can speak English. I say that my first

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guest for this year is not one but two and it's

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a lovely husband and wife duo both creative in

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their own ways and of course both have touched

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on the topic of Vikings. So I'm delighted to

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welcome CJ Adrian and his wife Crystal Withouse.

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Welcome to the podcast guys. Thank you. Thank

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you for having us. Now you are here in my humble

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virtual Valhall. to talk about your wonderful

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children's book that you've done together called

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I Am a Viking, a history book about the Vikings

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for kids. So I guess we should start off with

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where it all began. Whose idea was it? It was,

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it was Kristoff. It was CJ's idea first off.

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When I met him he was working on his second or

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third book, I'm not quite sure. And he found

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out I could draw. And he's like, oh, well, you

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should do a little bit of an audition for me.

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And so I drew the first page. And he was just

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super excited. And he goes, well, you have to

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do a kids book with me. And I'm like, I guess

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I have to do it. I can be pushy, I guess. You're

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making me sound like a great candidate. On the

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singles market Audition for the woman Do it now

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snap snap So i'm guessing kind of like then cj

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have you noticed like that there's perhaps a

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gap in the market for books for kids telling

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them kind of the real history of vikings in this

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kind of very Illustrative and kind of like very

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easy to read way without being too wordy or too

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bogged down in facts Yeah It began in 2018, I

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want to say. Yeah, I think it was 2018. And there

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was the traveling exhibition from the Swedish

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National Museum that came here to Nalt. And I

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happened to be visiting at the time with my first

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son, who was at the time, I think, three, two,

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three. And we did their whole thing. It's a wonderful

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exhibit. And if you have a chance to go see it

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wherever it happened, wherever you may be, if

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it comes to your town, go see it. It's a must

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see. I believe it was at the Smithsonian most

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recently. I could be off by that. But so they

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had a little gift shop at the end. They had kids

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books and they had one kids book that was sponsored

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by the Swedish National Museum. It was translated

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in English and in French and it was by an artist

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from I don't know where and reading through it.

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Well, we bought it and I didn't really read through

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it. Then we got home. I read it to my son. I

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was like, this is awful. Objectively like There's

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so much missing right? There's a lot missing

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like the illustrations were really crummy and

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not super Well done and the information was poorly

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presented poorly translated So I was like this

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isn't I'm surprised this made the cut to be part

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of the Swedish National Museums You know portfolio

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of things to sell at their at their exhibit.

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So I kind of thought Back then, I could make

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a kid's book. I just need to find a good illustrator.

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So I worked over the idea in my head for a couple

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of years. And then when I met Crystal, it was

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just one of those far away ideas I didn't think

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was ever going to happen at that point. And as

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she mentioned, I was working on my novels. And

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so that was really the focus. And it came up

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in conversation. We'd been dating for a while,

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actually. Yeah. It was like the summer. I was

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like, I've got almost a year in. And she's like,

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oh yeah, I draw. What do you mean you draw? This

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is classic Crystal where she just, it's, you

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get information on a need to know basis. If she

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doesn't think you need to know, you don't get

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to know. So it was just, it just came up. She's

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like, I was like, oh, I'd love to make a kids

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book. Oh, well I draw. Oh, well, I didn't say

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you must audition. I just said, would you like

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to try? And she's like, oh, OK, I'll give it

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a whirl. And then she drew this picture. I'll

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put it up for those watching visually. Yes. If

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you're on YouTube, you can see it now. There'll

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be pictures of different pages and sections popping

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up throughout the interview. But also, if you're

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listening on the audio podcast, do join us on

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the YouTube platform. It's all wonderful. So

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you can see the visual representation. And she

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actually went off of the Viking kit that I had

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in my office. that was displayed and you know

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my background for videos and so forth and uh

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and then slightly modeled off her off of my first

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son right because that's who we went off of uh

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and yeah i saw that and i said okay i think i

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think we have an opportunity here so so then

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the question was well crystal do you do you want

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to make a book with me i got down on one knee

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and i offered her a pen or pencil pack of pencils

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and a budget and said would you like to make

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will you make a kids book with me there is a

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sister -in -law in the background her hamster

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was present as a witness i love that i absolutely

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love it because it is quite kind of like of course

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as a reader and someone who loves books both

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picture books story books non -fiction books

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I kind of like do respect the effort that goes

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into illustrated books and especially for children

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because it is its art form in its own right because

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it is a talent and I really like It's almost

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a classic feel you are wet crystal It reminds

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me of books that I grew up with and I mean that

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as a compliment in the greatest way Because I've

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got my own little girl who's five and a half

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and some of the Illustrated books that she has

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they're all flat 2d kind of like abstract images

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that don't really represent anything from reality.

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Whereas when I think about the books that I grew

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up with in the 1980s and 90s, they had that realistic

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mood about them. They just had that realistic

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connection. And I really, really liked the illustrations

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you've done for this book. And of course, I guess

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CJ, his novels being primarily from Viking Age

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historical fiction, was it a deep dive for you

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to go into Vikings then and learn about what

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you were then having to draw about? Uh, actually

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it was. Yeah. Um, there was a lot of things that

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I had no idea. I mean, the, the best, the best,

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um, representation of Vikings that I knew of

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was Vikings, the TV show. And I even knew that

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was, you should, that was to be taken with a

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grain of salt. And, um, it's pretty much been

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a learning experience ever since I met him. Every

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day I learn about something new, and I'm just

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like, oh well, I have them to thank for my hair

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tools. Oh yeah, that was surprising. I was like,

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they had tweezers. They had tweezers. Well, anyone

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who's been to the Louvre, we went to Paris. and

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we went to the Louvre and they had the Egyptian

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exhibit the ancient Egyptians had a pair of tweezers

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there they had a little makeup kit and stuff

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so it's not it's not the vikings but i mean the

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vikings had them but they they did they were

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well -groomed they had lots of combs lots and

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lots of combs yeah and um so i'm learning something

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new every day and kind of like was there a particular

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bit kind of like because it's a lovely kind of

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like got a narrative to it. So it's not just

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kind of like facts and figures throwing at a

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very young brain. But it kind of like that's,

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I guess, where I kind of like CJ storytelling

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talent comes in because it is kind of from the

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perspective of a young biking boy speaking almost

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directly to the reader saying, oh, yes, we do

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this. We do this. We don't do that. But we also

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do this. And my dad's going off to do that. And

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my granddad did this. And I just like how it

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kind of like really embeds the family and brings

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it back down to a very human level that even

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kind of like a young child can understand because

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their world is their family when they're a young

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child and I suppose was there a bit as you were

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drawing it that kind of like really kind of like

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I guess impressed you or surprised you as you

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were kind of like learning through the eyes of

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this Viking boy that you were drawing? Um was

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one thing that surprised me in here. She's refreshing

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her memory. I am refreshing my memory. I will

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confirm when you've created a certain number

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of works, sometimes you forget what you've done.

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People will remind you and you'll say, ah, is

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that really? My editor does that to me all the

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time. Oh, but in book three, he did this. Oh,

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right. I blame having children. It just wonders

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or not for the memory. Oh, very much. I was kind

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of impressed with, like, things like how they

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consulted like a vulva and They they had like

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this almost town hall way of Conducting themselves

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when it came to laws or disagreements things

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like that And even that's interesting yeah, and

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even the even just the little boys learning learning

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how to fight from their teacher, starting very

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young, which I assume they did start very young.

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If you were the chieftain's son, sure. If you're

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a farmer's son, maybe not so much. You get a

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pitchfork early in the Viking Age. But I was

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really impressed with, even though I feel like

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they're kind of like a nomadic kind of culture,

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in a way. You've heard me say that a lot, yeah.

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Okay, yeah. I was impressed with, like, even

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though they're a nomadic kind of culture, their

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sense of community. Yeah, she's referring specifically

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to some of those frameworks like Christian Koidman's

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Monarchs and Hydraks, where he talks about these

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being floating communities of people on boats,

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and so we can almost see them through the same

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lens as we might see the Huns or the Magyars

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you know and they weren't just it wasn't just

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men who roved it was entire families in certain

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respects especially those who went to Iceland

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and those who were attempting colonization efforts

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Normandy etc and so yeah that's something that

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Crystal's been picking up on of oh yeah it's

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a floating it's a she's right you've heard me

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say that it's a community well and and when we

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were making the book I was writing book three

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of mine which is called the kings of the sea

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where I pick up on that idea and so I was trying

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to play with this idea that these fleets are

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actually floating cities and they can go anywhere

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they want and set up shop and you know so and

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that's something that we had talked about when

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you were making the book yeah I was like oh yeah

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it's just little bits and pieces of new information

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a little conversation while I drew things and

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um like about their I guess Myths and legends

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or I would call it their religion in a way Yeah,

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I thought that was kind of interesting how that

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were again it kind of circles back to the vulva

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Mmm I mean that bit as well. I must admit that

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a bit impressed me because it's not often that

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kind of like I've got a couple and it literally

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is only a couple because I've got a shelf full

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of children's books featuring Vikings in various

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guises, both kind of like historical and fantastical,

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because of course I've got Christina Cowell's

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wonderful How to Change a Dragon. Even if they

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do all wear horned helmets and happen to have

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dragons, it's still got Vikings in, so I like

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it. But there's not many kind of like references

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to kind of like the girls or the women of the

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North society and culture that besides kind of

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that really come through in books for children

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it is often kind of like from the boys perspective

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or the teenage boys perspective or the men's

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perspective because of course they're the ones

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that globally made the biggest impact I suppose

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because they were the ones going off their long

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ships and raiding and pillaging and doing other

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wonderful things. And aptly enough, we are discussing

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this on International Women's Day. So it's quite

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nice that you picked up on the vulva because

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that is, I think that is a figure of great mystery

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and great interest to a lot of people because

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we don't know much about how they practice what

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they did. We can find their burials. We can roughly

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identify them from the artifacts found within

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them, but we don't really know how they did what

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they did. So it's especially kind of like when

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you think about the Viking series which you mentioned

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and the vulva in that one kind of like being

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one of great prophecy but also kind of like singled

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out in society because of their disability and

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malformed face kind of thing. It's always interesting

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how women characters are interpreted when they're

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coming from especially kind of with this book

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kind of like from a very common background. kind

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of like other Viking village and a chieftain

00:14:35.509 --> 00:14:38.070
and a family and that kind of glimpses a small

00:14:38.070 --> 00:14:40.210
microcosm of society instead of looking at a

00:14:40.210 --> 00:14:42.809
queen or a kind of like, of course we've got

00:14:42.809 --> 00:14:45.450
Lagertha, again referring back to Vikings and

00:14:45.450 --> 00:14:48.570
kind of like female figures from sagas, not necessarily

00:14:48.570 --> 00:14:51.830
history but certainly sagas. So it's interesting

00:14:51.830 --> 00:14:53.750
that you picked up on the vulgar because I think

00:14:53.750 --> 00:14:55.549
a lot of people would find that more interesting.

00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.720
And it did make me think when I was reviewing

00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:00.919
this book, kind of like it is nice that it is

00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:02.539
from the boy's perspective, because being the

00:15:02.539 --> 00:15:04.980
chief and son, they did have the most power,

00:15:05.100 --> 00:15:07.720
the prestige, the status. But we don't really

00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:09.779
know much about the girls besides them going

00:15:09.779 --> 00:15:12.559
off to get married with so -and -so son at some

00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.799
point. So maybe that's something you could address

00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:21.309
later on, CJ. Yeah. Or you. Or me. You can come

00:15:21.309 --> 00:15:23.529
up with a girl's perspective. I think that would

00:15:23.529 --> 00:15:25.990
be more natural. And then you just use me as

00:15:25.990 --> 00:15:29.909
a historical consultant. Yeah, I can make a girl's

00:15:29.909 --> 00:15:33.269
book on what happened in the Vikings' age, what

00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:37.009
she did every day. She's in here. I mean, she's

00:15:37.009 --> 00:15:39.429
a character. She is a character. There's a sister.

00:15:39.529 --> 00:15:42.070
Yeah, she gets a dress from the dad who brings

00:15:42.070 --> 00:15:43.789
it back from France. He's like, here's a nice

00:15:43.789 --> 00:15:48.649
dress and a glass bead necklace from Italy. Yeah.

00:15:50.040 --> 00:15:53.139
All the interesting things and you see like the

00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:57.279
mom she's taking care of the household and she's

00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.320
making sure he takes a bath even though he really

00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:06.360
doesn't want to. That was my life. Especially

00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.519
because kind of like it made me think back to

00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.200
I think it was somewhere in the angle if not

00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:13.360
the anglo -saxon Chronicle definitely a piece

00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.919
of manuscript from the anglo -saxon times of

00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:17.639
the anglo -saxons complaining about how all their

00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:19.679
women are chasing after the vikings because they're

00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.460
all clean they take more baths and the men and

00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:29.019
I just That's true, that's a real thing. Yeah,

00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.620
because they were they were well, it's it it

00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:36.340
ties back to the idea in Christianity that vanity

00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:40.899
is a sin. Although in the wider population, it

00:16:40.899 --> 00:16:47.000
wasn't so practiced as it was amongst the clergy.

00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.639
And I like there's a writer from, I believe,

00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:54.019
the 11th century, John of Wallingford, who famously

00:16:54.019 --> 00:16:57.860
said, the smellier we are, the holier we are.

00:16:58.999 --> 00:17:02.179
So there is this interesting thing where that's

00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:05.000
where a lot of the kind of myth around how dirty

00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.119
people were in the Middle Ages, vanity is a sin,

00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.380
so Christian Europeans in the Middle Ages were

00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:13.400
dirty. Actually no, they had baths and they had

00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.140
bath houses. Some of them were run by the church

00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:19.099
actually. But still we have this myth because

00:17:19.099 --> 00:17:22.500
it's true that in monastic communities they were

00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:26.799
averse to bathing because of trying to be as

00:17:26.730 --> 00:17:30.430
non -vein as possible, right? So it's like stay

00:17:30.430 --> 00:17:33.190
as clean as you need to to not die of an infection

00:17:33.190 --> 00:17:38.829
but no more. Well then I am certainly vain because

00:17:38.829 --> 00:17:42.950
you'll have a good shower. Good hot shower. Well

00:17:42.950 --> 00:17:45.930
we know, we all know and appreciate the kind

00:17:45.930 --> 00:17:48.109
of like the daily practice of modern hygiene

00:17:48.109 --> 00:17:50.789
these days because they wouldn't have cleaned

00:17:50.789 --> 00:17:52.809
their teeth and they didn't have half the sugar

00:17:52.809 --> 00:17:55.480
that we have in our own diet. But then, of course,

00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:57.400
their bread was probably rock hard as well, because

00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:59.380
they didn't have fine milled white flour, like

00:17:59.380 --> 00:18:04.900
we all enjoy. As you mentioned, CJ, the robes

00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:06.740
from France and the glass beads from Italy, were

00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:09.059
there particular artifacts that you came across

00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:11.019
in your own research and studies that you wanted

00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:13.420
to then place into this narrative to give it

00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:16.779
that connection to real things that have been

00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:21.710
found? Yeah. I used the main book that I bought

00:18:21.710 --> 00:18:24.470
from the Swedish National Museum exhibit and

00:18:24.470 --> 00:18:26.450
used a lot of the artifacts that were contained

00:18:26.450 --> 00:18:29.910
in there and then when presenting the story I

00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:33.750
started my career as a school teacher so I understand

00:18:33.750 --> 00:18:36.170
how kids think what they respond to that sort

00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:38.049
of thing so that's why I went with the this is

00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:40.049
just a this is a seven -year -old boy doing a

00:18:40.049 --> 00:18:42.369
show and tell for his class kind of thing right

00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:44.450
it's like bring your dad to work day kind of

00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:48.339
thing so he's like So that was the idea. And

00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:50.000
then a lot of the artifacts that you see in here

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.460
are things, you know, so like the Volvo staff,

00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:54.319
for example, that was one of the artifacts that's

00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:56.180
at that traveling display for the Swedish National

00:18:56.180 --> 00:18:58.400
Museum. There's lots of different Volvo staffs

00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.940
too. That was just the one that I thought was

00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:08.019
aesthetically pleasing. Or alleged. They're not

00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:18.569
sure. And let's see, there were the combs and

00:19:18.569 --> 00:19:20.529
the picks, of course, which we've already talked

00:19:20.529 --> 00:19:27.130
about. And what else was there? The beads, of

00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:32.950
course. Amulets. I think the one discussion that

00:19:32.950 --> 00:19:38.970
we had was how to address violence. And that's

00:19:38.970 --> 00:19:40.869
the criticism I've gotten from people when I've

00:19:40.869 --> 00:19:44.069
tried to promote the book. is how dare you make

00:19:44.069 --> 00:19:45.869
a children's book about the Viking Age? Weren't

00:19:45.869 --> 00:19:49.589
they just all rapists and murderers and et cetera?

00:19:50.630 --> 00:19:52.890
And it's like, well, to a significant degree,

00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:56.789
they were, but also they weren't, right? I mean,

00:19:56.930 --> 00:19:59.210
this is part of the great migrations period.

00:19:59.789 --> 00:20:02.569
If you think the Vikings were violent, try Charlemagne.

00:20:02.829 --> 00:20:05.970
that guy was exceedingly violent and he had levers

00:20:05.970 --> 00:20:07.910
of power and resources the vikings didn't have

00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:10.869
so he was killing people on a massive scale compared

00:20:10.869 --> 00:20:14.369
to the vikings uh so you know it's like were

00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:16.710
they more violent than anybody else no um they

00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:19.210
were just doing what people did back then it's

00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:21.990
a subsistence society so you know if i'm hungry

00:20:21.990 --> 00:20:24.369
and there's no food i have to go get food and

00:20:24.369 --> 00:20:26.549
if the only you know only way to get food is

00:20:26.549 --> 00:20:28.089
to fight somebody for it that's what's going

00:20:28.089 --> 00:20:31.230
to happen so that we did we did debate because

00:20:31.230 --> 00:20:35.440
we have the the infamous scene where they're

00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.440
chasing away monks from a monastery. We politely

00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.400
ask them to leave. Yes, and we politely ask them

00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.700
to leave. So I had to really think about how

00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:51.359
would a kid you know, synthesize that, right?

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.380
To make, you know, make, understand how would

00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:55.680
it be communicated to a child that that's happening

00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.420
or that's what they do. So I asked my son, because

00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:00.900
he was all into the Vikings, you know, so he's,

00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:03.319
he grew up around my shields and my kit and,

00:21:03.380 --> 00:21:05.000
you know, the books and everything. I was always

00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.539
big, you know, his first name's Leaf, so he's...

00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.319
obviously named after a viking uh leaf uh like

00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.099
leaf the uh the lucky and then his middle name

00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:15.940
is william and people go oh that's pretty vanilla

00:21:15.940 --> 00:21:23.539
i was like like william the conqueror but uh

00:21:23.539 --> 00:21:25.579
so i asked him i said uh what do you think they're

00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:27.599
doing and he just says he just said it just so

00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:29.000
innocently he's like oh they're just asking them

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:35.299
to leave Okay, okay, and so that's how we're

00:21:35.299 --> 00:21:39.420
gonna do it Yeah, yeah, so there's not and then

00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:41.980
because he's a kid in a village he's not I mean

00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:46.559
You know, it's it's I can't we it's very it is

00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:48.319
still geared toward a modern audience if we had

00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:50.460
made his perspective purely Viking It's like

00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:53.180
always saying in other forms is never go full

00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:55.579
Viking because you'll just alienate modern audiences

00:21:56.190 --> 00:21:58.589
But children at the time would have been exposed

00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:01.309
to a level of violence that kids today just don't.

00:22:01.349 --> 00:22:02.789
Because you're on a farm. You're killing animals

00:22:02.789 --> 00:22:06.410
every day to live. And then there's violence

00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:10.029
happening between the different factions and

00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:12.930
so forth. So we don't get a lot of that from

00:22:12.930 --> 00:22:15.390
him, although we do get the whole he's being

00:22:15.390 --> 00:22:18.430
trained to fight because he wants to be like

00:22:18.430 --> 00:22:21.950
his dad. Right. So there's. So that's kind of

00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:23.549
that's the approach we took. It's kind of a middle

00:22:23.549 --> 00:22:30.529
of the road. It's still very G rated. So. Yeah,

00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:35.829
I think another thing we we decided to omit from

00:22:35.829 --> 00:22:41.130
the book was when we talked about slavery. Oh,

00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:44.269
yeah. Yeah. That was that was a crystal decision.

00:22:44.569 --> 00:22:47.450
That was. Yeah, I thought that I was like, that's

00:22:47.450 --> 00:22:50.670
let's let's leave that out of out of the book.

00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:55.759
Because we we talked about isolation you wouldn't

00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:57.740
be the first because I remember learning about

00:22:57.740 --> 00:23:02.619
Vikings in my GCSE history. Yeah, I Actually

00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:04.940
know before my GCSE because I didn't some strange

00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:07.279
reason fate made me not choose history of my

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:09.799
GCSE But I learned about it before because we

00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:11.720
learned about Vikings versus Alfred, but we never

00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.480
ever touched on slavery we touched about the

00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.500
raids and of course how they killed lots of priests

00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.259
and monks in various monasteries and things like

00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:22.299
that never touched on slavery and it is definitely

00:23:22.299 --> 00:23:25.319
a thing that not many people realize about the

00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.460
Vikings and equally about your point CJ kind

00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:31.440
of like how yes they were violent and yes they

00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.039
killed people but so did everyone else in that

00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.559
era. I mean England was a set of feudal kingdoms

00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:39.900
just like Scandinavia was a set of feudal kingdoms

00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:42.839
before either of them found their own united

00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.519
identity as a kingdom of their own kind of thing.

00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.019
Yeah, actually, I have the page here. So there's

00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:50.660
a page where it says, in the autumn, they return

00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:52.519
with lots of gold and silver and exciting stories

00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:54.559
of their adventures. And there was originally

00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.940
a page after that that had the slaves with the

00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:58.859
iron collars, like they have in the exhibit.

00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:03.119
And then if I recall correctly, the line that

00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.880
I put was, they also bring people back that I'm

00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.099
not allowed to talk to, or something like that.

00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:17.069
And Crystal's like, no, don't do it. Well, in

00:24:17.069 --> 00:24:20.210
a strange way, so, like, just reverting, taking

00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:22.829
that idea, linking it back to the Viking series,

00:24:22.910 --> 00:24:24.269
and I'm trying not to make too much about the

00:24:24.269 --> 00:24:25.869
Viking series because they've been discussed

00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:28.150
and researched many times over now. It's been

00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:31.150
around for a long time. But that is one thing

00:24:31.150 --> 00:24:33.910
I think I would tip my hat to them in that they

00:24:33.910 --> 00:24:36.970
did show kind of the aspect of a Christian monk

00:24:36.970 --> 00:24:38.730
being taken and turned into a slave, but also

00:24:38.730 --> 00:24:40.529
how they kind of, like, maybe address the language

00:24:40.529 --> 00:24:42.390
barrier, because that's something that always

00:24:42.390 --> 00:24:45.380
puzzles me, kind of, like, I know anglo -saxons

00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:47.940
shared a lot of words that were similar to kind

00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:50.380
of like old norse but of course there wasn't

00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:52.460
just old norse from norway there was danes there

00:24:52.460 --> 00:24:55.079
was swedes and they all had their own native

00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.960
tongue so i do kind of depending on which viking

00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:58.920
took you you may not maybe able to understand

00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.519
what your new master was telling you to do and

00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:05.240
thus the beatings and stuff um but i was kind

00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:08.519
of like impressed with the um i think it was

00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:10.859
astelstam his name was i think it was it's been

00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:13.579
a long time since sounds right sounds right yeah

00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.119
with his storyline although I didn't like the

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.200
way it ended but most of his storyline I was

00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:22.299
impressed with and how that relationship came

00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:25.559
across but of course as a kid's book yes there

00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:28.480
probably are limits we have to set in terms of

00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.359
kind of like you don't have rape for a course

00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:32.299
in this book and I remember an early episode

00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:35.940
I did with the lovely Dr. Chris Tuckley, formerly

00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:38.079
of the Orbit Viking Center in York Archaeology,

00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.740
but now working at Selby Abbey, we were discussing

00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:43.400
the Eric the Viking by the Monty Python film,

00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.700
and how that features rape from the start. And

00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:48.819
yet you wouldn't have that nowadays, but that

00:25:48.819 --> 00:25:51.599
was just back in the 1980s when it was, that

00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.059
was just their cultural view of Vikings and how

00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:58.140
they raped and pillaged, and that was it. So

00:25:58.140 --> 00:25:59.660
it's nice to see that. That subject actually

00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:04.140
is a debated one. So if you go to the source

00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:10.000
material, the word rape is conspicuously absent.

00:26:11.299 --> 00:26:13.200
The monks were not telling us that they were

00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:16.039
going around. The rape thing is a 19th century

00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:17.839
assumption. Oh, well, they must have been doing

00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.579
this. But if you look at the early targets, they're

00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:23.000
hitting monasteries. And if you look at Norse

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.039
culture from, say, the Icelandic sagas, like

00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.819
Ergi, which is homosexuality, was very frowned

00:26:27.819 --> 00:26:30.460
upon. That would make you a new thing. And so

00:26:30.460 --> 00:26:32.279
that would which is an untouchable, basically.

00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:35.839
So so, you know, were they were they raping monks?

00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:39.359
I mean, I'm sure there's a few. But but generally

00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.799
speaking, it's not something that's that's well

00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.089
attested or attested at all. in the primary sources

00:26:45.089 --> 00:26:47.069
it's just assumed and if we look at the genetic

00:26:47.069 --> 00:26:49.869
spread it's true that you know the well actually

00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:51.789
even the genetic spread like all the genetic

00:26:51.789 --> 00:26:53.910
studies it's still in its infancy so it's it's

00:26:53.910 --> 00:26:55.910
not clear i mean the assumption is if you take

00:26:55.910 --> 00:26:58.109
slaves home and some of those are women they're

00:26:58.109 --> 00:27:01.650
not going to have a good time um and but the

00:27:01.650 --> 00:27:04.029
but the it's there there have there have been

00:27:04.029 --> 00:27:07.089
papers on this idea of in popular culture the

00:27:07.089 --> 00:27:10.170
first people say about vikings is rape then pillage

00:27:10.170 --> 00:27:13.529
then this but Actually, hopefully we don't get

00:27:13.529 --> 00:27:15.210
you banned from YouTube by saying this word too

00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:20.789
much. But in the primary sources, it's not there.

00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:26.470
So it's an interesting modern lens that's actually

00:27:26.470 --> 00:27:28.710
been transposed onto the Viking Age without clear

00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:31.710
evidence to support it. Now we can all assume

00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:34.170
that there was some of that, if not quite a bit

00:27:34.170 --> 00:27:36.130
of that going on just because of the time period

00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:39.500
and population movements and so forth. but um

00:27:39.500 --> 00:27:40.900
is probably not the thing we should all lead

00:27:40.900 --> 00:27:44.839
with right pillaging is should probably be number

00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:48.859
one I mean that makes sense when you think about

00:27:48.859 --> 00:27:51.140
slavery too because they obviously wouldn't want

00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:53.740
to get a lot of their female slaves pregnant

00:27:53.740 --> 00:27:56.079
because then that's just extra extra effort for

00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.839
that to keep them alive whereas they want them

00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:01.440
to be in good condition for sale at the markets

00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:05.980
you want labor That also kind of explains a little

00:28:05.980 --> 00:28:07.559
bit why they would have attacked monasteries

00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:09.819
first because monasteries a held a lot of wealth

00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:11.759
But be the people you could capture in a monastery

00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.400
were men and men were better at working the fields,

00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:18.000
right? There's more straight. They're stronger

00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.740
And so there's there's you if you're looking

00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:23.839
for cheap labor, that's who you're gonna target

00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.680
first And then if you and then if you get some

00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.279
women just by happenstance, you know, maybe well

00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:32.930
and then we have the example of how you know,

00:28:32.970 --> 00:28:34.890
the genetic testing done in Iceland has also

00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:38.329
shown that a significant portion of their ancestry

00:28:38.329 --> 00:28:40.630
is Irish, because Icelanders went down to Ireland,

00:28:41.210 --> 00:28:44.009
captured women, okay, so that one. I was gonna

00:28:44.009 --> 00:28:47.809
say, I was like, wasn't there a shortage of wives,

00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:50.809
so to speak, and that was another reason why

00:28:50.809 --> 00:28:53.490
they they pillaged, because they needed women?

00:28:53.769 --> 00:28:56.450
Well, for Iceland specifically, yeah. Okay. They

00:28:56.450 --> 00:28:58.349
went to, we have evidence to show that they went

00:28:58.349 --> 00:29:00.009
to Ireland, grabbed some women, and then made

00:29:00.009 --> 00:29:02.750
babies with them. And I don't think we should

00:29:02.750 --> 00:29:06.690
assume that it was consensual. So yeah. So yes,

00:29:06.849 --> 00:29:08.630
I mean, so I'm not saying that it didn't happen,

00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:12.470
but I do like to bring up the idea that the fact

00:29:12.470 --> 00:29:14.170
that it's something that popular culture leads

00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:16.069
with, but it's something that's not at all tested

00:29:16.069 --> 00:29:18.509
in the sources, makes it one of those thorny

00:29:18.509 --> 00:29:19.990
little issues that not a lot of people want to

00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:22.250
bring up because it's dangerous territory, especially

00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:25.220
in modern times right because you can get you

00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:27.359
can uh gosh i don't want to use the wrong idiom

00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.539
talking about it either i was just about to say

00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:34.160
i appreciate you bringing it up cj i really do

00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:35.740
appreciate bringing it up because it is certainly

00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:38.119
a nice angle or an aspect that i've never actually

00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:40.980
realized or considered and yet i am the product

00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:45.460
of all this popular culture messaging going out

00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:47.880
there and what thinking like as you say it's

00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.279
become such kind of like a cliche phrase like

00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:53.450
as part of the stereotype As much as the horned

00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:55.789
helmets and which of course I'm delighted to

00:29:55.789 --> 00:30:02.309
say that you don't feature at all I'm a I'm a

00:30:02.309 --> 00:30:06.950
horned helmets evangelist anti evangelist If

00:30:06.950 --> 00:30:09.589
in fact if you go to my website I have two articles

00:30:09.589 --> 00:30:12.869
now because I I did a part two Where I explore

00:30:12.869 --> 00:30:15.589
the topic of did they wear helmets at all? Especially

00:30:15.589 --> 00:30:17.549
in the early Viking age because we only have

00:30:17.549 --> 00:30:20.559
one preserved helmet from the viking age that

00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:24.200
is confirmed uh confirmed to be quote unquote

00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.839
viking now we can argue the nomenclature of that

00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:28.779
but we'll just use the loose set popular culture

00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:31.180
sense of the term but it's the gerbende helmet

00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:33.480
which was found in norway now people will point

00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:36.799
to the weymouth helmet which is in England, as,

00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:38.799
oh no, that one's from the Viking Age. Actually,

00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:41.160
no. All they found was a jawbone. The museum

00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:43.140
thought, gosh, a jawbone by itself doesn't look

00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:45.460
very good. What if we made up this helmet and

00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:48.880
put it here? Really? It's a fabrication. It's

00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:51.099
actually a fabrication by the museum. Scandal.

00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:55.299
And then there are shards, like pieces of helmet

00:30:55.299 --> 00:31:01.099
from different places in Poland and the Baltic

00:31:01.099 --> 00:31:04.170
states. But there's not enough for us to do any

00:31:04.170 --> 00:31:05.329
sort of recreation. So we don't know. So there's

00:31:05.329 --> 00:31:07.470
only one helmet. And then that begs the question,

00:31:07.490 --> 00:31:10.710
why? Why do we have so, you know, and one of

00:31:10.710 --> 00:31:12.710
the theories is that, oh, maybe they're just

00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:15.430
repurposes, metal is repurposed. Actually, why

00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:17.430
would that be? Because think of how many swords

00:31:17.430 --> 00:31:19.829
we have. Think of how many Ofbert swords we have.

00:31:20.250 --> 00:31:24.049
144 Ofbert swords, Damaskine steel. Those would

00:31:24.049 --> 00:31:26.630
have been exceptionally rare. And we don't have

00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:30.380
any helmets. Like none, zero. Although, but then

00:31:30.380 --> 00:31:34.619
you have from the life of Saint -Oubin in France,

00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:38.819
this is Viking all wearing helmets. So the chroniclers

00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:40.779
are thinking, oh, these guys, but is that just

00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:44.519
a later fabrication? where they, again, the assumption

00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.099
that we know what these guys were about, they

00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:48.599
must have all been wearing helmets, right? But

00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:49.819
it's not clear. I am thinking about the Bay of

00:31:49.819 --> 00:31:51.680
Tapestry, which is actually due to arrive at

00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:54.160
the British Library, not library, British Museum,

00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.799
I should say, not library, British Museum, this

00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.960
summer. So we're borrowing it from Normandy for

00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:02.380
a little bit. for the first time in quite a while

00:32:02.380 --> 00:32:05.259
I believe. And the Normans had helmets and that's

00:32:05.259 --> 00:32:07.359
that's well documented but we can't really call

00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:09.839
them Viking at that point because they had become

00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.940
the ruling class of a of a French territory so

00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:15.220
it's so it's really that's an early medieval

00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:17.819
kind of early knight kind of helmet right in

00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:21.200
fact it's called Norman casque so it's not even

00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:23.259
but so far as the Viking age is concerned it

00:32:23.259 --> 00:32:26.569
is not clear that they wore helmets at all, especially

00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:28.329
early in the Viking Age. Now, later in the Viking

00:32:28.329 --> 00:32:32.369
Age, we can start pointing to other pieces of

00:32:32.369 --> 00:32:35.269
evidence to show that maybe they did. But the

00:32:35.269 --> 00:32:38.390
lack of evidence is really surprising. And it's

00:32:38.390 --> 00:32:41.369
an unsolved mystery. It's unanswerable, because

00:32:41.369 --> 00:32:47.329
lack of evidence does not mean that they didn't

00:32:47.329 --> 00:32:52.910
exist. But then again, you know. It doesn't prove

00:32:52.910 --> 00:32:54.849
that they existed either, you know So we're kind

00:32:54.849 --> 00:32:56.769
of we're stuck in this universal negative that

00:32:56.769 --> 00:32:58.730
we can't get out of so I have two articles that

00:32:58.730 --> 00:33:02.069
I've gone over both sides of the argument Thoroughly

00:33:02.069 --> 00:33:04.730
and I tend to lean toward the I think early in

00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:07.049
the Viking Age They were like 16 year old boys

00:33:07.049 --> 00:33:08.710
who want to go ride their bike and I wear your

00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:12.630
helmet now Well, if you're not gonna wear them

00:33:12.630 --> 00:33:15.630
I'm not gonna use this very precious iron to

00:33:15.630 --> 00:33:17.529
make you a helmet I'll just make something else

00:33:17.529 --> 00:33:19.549
that we can use on the farm and you can go risk

00:33:19.549 --> 00:33:23.230
your life getting hit in the head Also with Rainer

00:33:23.230 --> 00:33:25.029
Oskarson and William Short, who wrote Men of

00:33:25.029 --> 00:33:26.990
Terror, I had this conversation with them. Now

00:33:26.990 --> 00:33:29.589
they didn't, they were reluctant to really answer,

00:33:29.589 --> 00:33:31.309
but one of the things that we had talked about,

00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:33.769
one of the ideas that we talked about, is this

00:33:33.769 --> 00:33:37.990
idea of Drenger, like the honor, right? I don't

00:33:37.990 --> 00:33:39.430
want to call it an otter code, but it's like

00:33:39.430 --> 00:33:43.289
the kind of the expected conduct of a warrior

00:33:43.289 --> 00:33:46.569
and being brave and so forth. And it could be

00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:49.670
that they didn't wear helmets on purpose. because

00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:52.869
it was a show of Valor and so forth. All this,

00:33:52.890 --> 00:33:54.509
by the way, came up during the show Vikings when

00:33:54.509 --> 00:33:56.150
people were like, why don't the main characters

00:33:56.150 --> 00:33:58.970
wear helmets? And I was like, aha, this is where

00:33:58.970 --> 00:34:00.869
Viking, the show Vikings might actually have

00:34:00.869 --> 00:34:05.490
done something right by accident. Now you're

00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:07.470
making me flick through my copy because it's

00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:09.530
got me thinking about something I learned really

00:34:09.530 --> 00:34:11.989
recently, which actually reflects the kind of

00:34:11.989 --> 00:34:14.030
the idea, as you say, of the Viking helmet, even

00:34:14.030 --> 00:34:17.510
though we have, I would say only one. actual

00:34:17.510 --> 00:34:21.809
example of it. I was able to go to one event

00:34:21.809 --> 00:34:23.750
for the Orbit Viking Festival this year which

00:34:23.750 --> 00:34:28.030
was the Valhalla symposium. It's Viking age living

00:34:28.030 --> 00:34:33.010
history for all assembly and it's just with lots

00:34:33.010 --> 00:34:34.909
of living historians as they now like to be known

00:34:34.909 --> 00:34:37.389
sharing their research and what they do and practice

00:34:37.389 --> 00:34:39.570
and there was a guy that did the last speech

00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:42.300
and he was speaking about male in corrections

00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:44.980
all that it's not chain mail it's male and how

00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:48.000
there is only one male that's been dated from

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.340
a grave from the viking age but how his theory

00:34:51.340 --> 00:34:54.219
was that a lot of the mail we think these vikings

00:34:54.219 --> 00:34:56.699
had was very rare because it was very costly

00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:59.139
because it was a high prize material and then

00:34:59.139 --> 00:35:01.079
they probably didn't make it themselves it was

00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:03.340
probably old roman centurion stuff from when

00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:05.039
the roman empire collapsed and that just got

00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.309
passed around and either got passed down generations

00:35:08.309 --> 00:35:10.909
or it got melted down back into iron and turned

00:35:10.909 --> 00:35:13.949
into something else. Which was really surprising

00:35:13.949 --> 00:35:18.929
because of course as Crystal has mentioned in

00:35:18.929 --> 00:35:21.190
the Viking series there's a lot of mail going

00:35:21.190 --> 00:35:23.210
around they just seem to be exceptionally wealthy

00:35:23.210 --> 00:35:25.389
with their mail and their leather armor in both

00:35:25.389 --> 00:35:34.780
degrees. Yeah The Franks were making it The Franks

00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:36.219
were making quite a bit of mail so it could be

00:35:36.219 --> 00:35:38.519
that they were just picked off of dead dead people

00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:40.480
That's why I do in my books. They're not making

00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:42.739
any of this stuff It's it's they will be the

00:35:42.739 --> 00:35:45.639
battle and they'll take down like a wealthy Frankish

00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.460
You know soldier or noble and then and then oh,

00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:51.599
that's my mail now And then in fact, there's

00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.099
a there's a scene in one of the books where they're

00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:57.179
like, does anyone know how to fix this? There's

00:35:57.179 --> 00:36:01.559
a hole in mine and just don't stab that guy so

00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:07.320
hard next time Yeah, this guy actually points

00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.059
out to a scene I think it's like one of those

00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:11.320
kind of like border scenes in the base tapestry

00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.420
where it does appear that someone is pulling

00:36:13.420 --> 00:36:17.579
the the male off a dead warrior. I can't remember

00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.639
if it was a dead Norman. Hopefully a dead Norman.

00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:21.460
I think all the Normans were depicted in male.

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:23.280
I don't think the Anglo -Saxons were that fortunate.

00:36:25.699 --> 00:36:27.780
Do we actually, in the book we have the father.

00:36:27.780 --> 00:36:30.860
How do you do it? And you're gonna laugh because

00:36:30.860 --> 00:36:32.280
we just talked about all this, but he's wearing

00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:36.179
a Gherbundu helmet, he's got an Ulfbert, and

00:36:36.179 --> 00:36:38.679
then he's wearing a male, and then he's got a

00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.659
leather, one of those leather jerkins on top.

00:36:42.329 --> 00:36:45.630
of the mail. So it's a deliberate choice to kind

00:36:45.630 --> 00:36:48.409
of, it's just to really frame it in. This is,

00:36:48.510 --> 00:36:51.809
if you could imagine the wealthiest of the wealthy,

00:36:51.929 --> 00:36:53.710
like basically the guy who owned the Yorubundu

00:36:53.710 --> 00:36:55.989
helmet, what would he have looked like? And so

00:36:55.989 --> 00:36:59.389
I put in, so I recommended to Crystal to do,

00:36:59.530 --> 00:37:02.090
you know, like kit them out the best you can.

00:37:02.349 --> 00:37:03.929
No guarantees that this guy would have actually

00:37:03.929 --> 00:37:06.590
existed, but at least you get to see some of

00:37:06.590 --> 00:37:11.639
the artifacts that have been recovered. That's

00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:15.420
a nice touch So I made him as pretty as possible

00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:24.760
I I made him as pretty as possible By Viking

00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:26.679
standards he is of course very pretty because

00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:29.340
of course there be beards for a big thing everyone

00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:31.980
thinks of Vikings long beards and plats and little

00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:36.159
ornaments going in So, how long did it take you

00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:38.440
both to work on this book and then eventually

00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.440
get ready for being published Was it a year?

00:37:42.659 --> 00:37:46.820
More than a year? A couple years? I want to say

00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:49.960
it took about like, because I did it like almost

00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:56.320
every day, so it took about I did like three

00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:00.039
pictures a week. I don't know. I want to say

00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:04.940
like a couple months, yeah. Three to six months

00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:09.860
in total. I think my part took 20 minutes. I

00:38:09.860 --> 00:38:12.039
just it's because it's I live in this world right

00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.579
so it's just it didn't take long to come up with

00:38:14.579 --> 00:38:16.059
the different things and then not everything

00:38:16.059 --> 00:38:19.659
that I did ended up in the book but um and not

00:38:19.659 --> 00:38:21.179
all the pictures that you drew ended up in the

00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:23.739
book either right so we had uh yeah I think it

00:38:23.739 --> 00:38:26.619
took took a solid couple of months then then

00:38:26.619 --> 00:38:30.739
it had to be like you know so edited and refinished

00:38:30.739 --> 00:38:32.420
why don't you talk about your art style like

00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:34.260
how how you drew it because I think that's really

00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:40.460
oh um I I chose kind of, I would call it cartoony.

00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:45.280
Some people would call it maybe a little anime

00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.880
-ish, but I feel like it's maybe something in

00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:55.699
between. I wanted it to be a little more realistic

00:38:55.699 --> 00:38:59.579
in like how you're talking about very like 2D,

00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:02.940
very abstract, very simple. I wanted it to be

00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:07.039
a little more detailed. It's all pencil drawn

00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:09.539
by hand, right? Yes, it's all pencil drawn by

00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:15.380
hand. I've tried doing digital pads and programs

00:39:15.380 --> 00:39:18.019
and things like that, but it just doesn't have

00:39:18.019 --> 00:39:27.159
the same feel to it. No. I can't create the way

00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:33.059
I want to. I prefer the feel of the pencil on

00:39:33.059 --> 00:39:37.250
the paper. I agree. It's something I remember

00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:39.969
a lot about my kids books, my favourite ones

00:39:39.969 --> 00:39:42.030
from when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s.

00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:44.809
They were all hand -drawn. They all looked like

00:39:44.809 --> 00:39:48.389
a Shirley Hughes series. They all got that hand

00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:53.530
-drawn feel. It connects more on a very visual

00:39:53.530 --> 00:39:55.750
and almost emotional level than just something

00:39:55.750 --> 00:39:59.489
that's done digitally, I think. So that immediately

00:39:59.489 --> 00:40:01.289
appealed to me just as soon as I saw the car.

00:40:01.389 --> 00:40:03.269
Oh, it's hand -drawn. I can see the coloring

00:40:03.269 --> 00:40:08.789
marks. It just got me all excited. Oh, I'm glad.

00:40:08.789 --> 00:40:13.610
I'm glad that it makes me excited, too. Just

00:40:13.610 --> 00:40:17.869
like I said, the feel of it. And I feel like

00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:21.750
you get almost, I mean, yes, like digital, you

00:40:21.750 --> 00:40:23.949
can kind of do whatever you want and you can

00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:26.449
make it as vivid as you want. But there's something

00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:33.599
There's something just more tangible and more

00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:40.360
earthy and more colorful about actually doing

00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:44.380
it with the real colored pencils, with clay,

00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:52.559
with charcoal, even with just felt paper. Yeah,

00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:54.760
once it was drawn, then you had to outline everything.

00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:59.440
Oh yeah, I had to outline everything. I had to

00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:06.059
blend the colored pencil because I used Prismas

00:41:06.059 --> 00:41:11.400
to do the coloring and it's a kind of colored

00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:15.340
pencil that's like clay, almost, as opposed to

00:41:15.340 --> 00:41:18.760
regular kind of graphite colored pencils. Yeah.

00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:24.539
And so I had a really good time with it Well,

00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:27.780
I'm curious now to learn about what pages of

00:41:27.780 --> 00:41:30.239
parts of the story that didn't make the cut so

00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.760
to speak We know you intentionally didn't slavery

00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:38.139
Did you just do a lot and they couldn't fit it

00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:40.739
all in for budgetary reasons or you just wanted

00:41:40.739 --> 00:41:44.340
it to be a short book No, I think it was just

00:41:44.340 --> 00:41:46.659
creative choices. There's just some stuff that

00:41:46.659 --> 00:41:50.000
was like you know, is this something that anybody

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.639
needs to know some of it's like it's some of

00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.199
the more controversial stuff did this really

00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:56.019
happen was this really a thing and it's like

00:41:56.019 --> 00:41:59.079
maybe maybe you know maybe kind of keep it out

00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:03.900
so i just i really wanted to keep it is as um

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:08.619
as faithful to the current scholarship as we

00:42:08.619 --> 00:42:12.940
could without diving too deep into into the controversies

00:42:12.940 --> 00:42:16.400
and the stuff that's still a toss -up and debatable

00:42:16.570 --> 00:42:19.489
I mean, there's stuff in here that's definitely

00:42:19.489 --> 00:42:23.230
still not completely known. And so that'll be

00:42:23.230 --> 00:42:26.349
in there. I mean, we're dealing with a time and

00:42:26.349 --> 00:42:28.550
place where we really have so little evidence

00:42:28.550 --> 00:42:30.210
that it's like trying to put together a puzzle

00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:36.090
with half the pieces. So yeah. But I think everything

00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:38.929
in here, I mean, it's like I said to Crystal

00:42:38.929 --> 00:42:40.969
a couple of times since we released the book,

00:42:41.030 --> 00:42:42.829
I was like, this is the book I'm most proud of.

00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:47.010
I didn't do most of it. Because it's one thing

00:42:47.010 --> 00:42:50.309
to write it down, right? Which is fine. But it's

00:42:50.309 --> 00:42:53.610
another thing to see somebody render that into

00:42:53.610 --> 00:42:57.969
art. And I think the drawings are just outstayed.

00:42:58.110 --> 00:43:00.349
I mean, this is the book I would want for my

00:43:00.349 --> 00:43:03.469
kids. That made me really happy when I saw that,

00:43:03.510 --> 00:43:05.710
where I was like, oh man, you get, I mean, that's

00:43:05.710 --> 00:43:08.849
just, and this could be a best seller. I mean,

00:43:08.849 --> 00:43:13.469
of course, you know. This could be outstanding,

00:43:13.710 --> 00:43:24.150
amazing even. But yeah, I think the final product

00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:27.050
came out better than we could have imagined.

00:43:28.630 --> 00:43:33.130
I'm really pleased. Yeah, we got married. I'm

00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:35.230
sorry, I didn't split you up. Because you said

00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:37.550
the final product turned out better than we could

00:43:37.550 --> 00:43:39.070
have imagined. I was like, yeah, we got married.

00:43:39.530 --> 00:43:42.409
Oh, yeah, there's that. That's it. That's how

00:43:42.409 --> 00:43:44.389
we were like, oh, we, you know, it's when you

00:43:44.389 --> 00:43:46.449
work on a project together, that's when you find

00:43:46.449 --> 00:43:50.360
out each other's, you know, stuff. And that's

00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:52.679
when things can get really hairy. You hear about

00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:54.179
it all the time, couples who go into business

00:43:54.179 --> 00:43:56.159
together, and then this just destroys the marriage,

00:43:56.340 --> 00:43:58.760
destroys their lives. And you're like, oh, man.

00:43:59.179 --> 00:44:01.840
But we worked on this project. And it turns out

00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:05.199
we work really well together. We have complementary

00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:09.179
character strengths that mesh really well to

00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:10.599
be able to create a final product. And I think

00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.380
creating a book like this is a great example

00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:15.639
of what great things can be done when you have

00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:23.440
the right partner. I agree. I agree. So I guess

00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.460
a quick question for you then, both, would kind

00:44:25.460 --> 00:44:27.880
of like, do you think you'd ever work on another

00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:31.800
book together, Viking or non -Viking? I mean,

00:44:31.900 --> 00:44:33.800
obviously, I was going to be Viking to a degree,

00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:38.079
I suppose. Yes, could be a little Viking. We've

00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:43.320
talked about it. I think with having a baby thrown

00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:46.440
into the mix, it's been a little hard to actually

00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:49.900
make it happen. We want to do another one at

00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:57.260
some point. The girl one or we talked about doing

00:44:57.260 --> 00:45:03.139
one about nights. That was an interesting one.

00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:05.880
We thought about doing just a whole little series

00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:13.769
about different subjects in history. And also

00:45:13.769 --> 00:45:16.289
I'm up for it when you have your the one that

00:45:16.289 --> 00:45:18.429
you're working on. Oh, yeah your project I'm

00:45:18.429 --> 00:45:20.610
working on my own project right now. It's not

00:45:20.610 --> 00:45:24.690
it's not a history a history book, but it's just

00:45:24.690 --> 00:45:27.909
it's just a good little book for it's geared

00:45:27.909 --> 00:45:33.670
toward little girls and It's kind of like a little

00:45:33.670 --> 00:45:37.869
journey of like self acceptance and making friends

00:45:37.869 --> 00:45:43.000
and I think it'll be a nice little addition to

00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:48.280
my, I guess you could call it my portfolio. But

00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:52.199
I'm open to doing more, more little history books

00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:57.960
for kids. Well, that's lovely to hear because

00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.059
certainly got me thinking kind of like what else

00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:03.960
can they do besides the generic biking. aspect

00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:06.340
like could you do one like on specific historical

00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:09.420
figures such as kind of like leaf the lucky or

00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:11.960
william the conqueror and tell it from their

00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:13.559
point of view so to speak but i guess there's

00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:15.300
a lot of history involved with both characters

00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:18.019
it depends on how you narrow it down and simplify

00:46:18.019 --> 00:46:21.300
it again for children no matter what age group

00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:25.639
you're looking at i really like the girls percent

00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:27.519
you know instead of i'm a viking i'm a shield

00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:29.579
maiden that'd be awesome i'm a shield maiden

00:46:29.579 --> 00:46:31.559
that would be awesome and we could use like the

00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:37.059
burka warrior right jb whatever the yeah and

00:46:37.059 --> 00:46:40.519
how she's an archer and oh yeah and that'd be

00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:42.579
interesting that'd be fun i think that would

00:46:42.579 --> 00:46:44.780
be fun yeah i mean nancy marie brown's written

00:46:44.780 --> 00:46:47.099
about her kind of like very specifically from

00:46:47.099 --> 00:46:49.219
a very narrative point of view albeit then going

00:46:49.219 --> 00:46:52.159
into the history of where this woman could have

00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.159
been and where she went and learned her military

00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:56.900
skills and stuff so i don't see how it couldn't

00:46:56.900 --> 00:47:00.219
be a children's book about her oh uh i do have

00:47:00.219 --> 00:47:04.099
one This is a real one that we've entertained

00:47:04.099 --> 00:47:07.400
that I've actually written out. And it's an exploration

00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:10.019
of the Viking Age for the York Viking Museum.

00:47:11.139 --> 00:47:16.920
But the problem is I want to make sure that everything

00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:20.460
we do is kosher with the museum itself, because

00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:23.099
I want to go through, because I have pictures

00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:26.179
of all their exhibits and everything. But from

00:47:26.179 --> 00:47:32.380
the perspective of Lloyd the Viking poo, Oh,

00:47:32.739 --> 00:47:35.760
wow. And so basically do like a, you know, a

00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:37.980
hanky the Christmas poo from South Park, right?

00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:41.139
So basically the and and Crystal started drawing

00:47:41.139 --> 00:47:43.019
the beginning where they're two kids are looking

00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:45.880
in at the glass with the with the cope, the Lloyds

00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.320
Bank coprolite, and then it's eyes open and go.

00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:50.889
And he's just like, and I don't. And I don't

00:47:50.889 --> 00:47:52.409
have a unique voice for him yet, but he'd be

00:47:52.409 --> 00:47:55.329
like, howdy ho, I'm Lloyd the Viking too. And

00:47:55.329 --> 00:47:57.829
then the kids have the kids on the side where

00:47:57.829 --> 00:47:59.610
he's teaching them all about the Viking age,

00:47:59.949 --> 00:48:02.289
but the kids in the back are just horrified by

00:48:02.289 --> 00:48:07.389
this grotesque abomination. Anyway, it's one

00:48:07.389 --> 00:48:10.590
of those ideas. But I think it would be funny

00:48:10.590 --> 00:48:12.710
and you could still be educational. I think kids

00:48:12.710 --> 00:48:15.309
would get a kick out of it. The thing is how

00:48:16.730 --> 00:48:18.710
you know that's not actually get away with it

00:48:18.710 --> 00:48:21.409
would the yeah i think the viking museum or the

00:48:21.409 --> 00:48:23.590
yeah the the museum in york would have to sign

00:48:23.590 --> 00:48:25.610
off on it and i don't i don't even know how to

00:48:25.610 --> 00:48:30.570
navigate their system yet so yeah especially

00:48:30.570 --> 00:48:32.929
whether the adults would be the museum would

00:48:32.929 --> 00:48:37.130
be happy with with a poo becoming i mean it is

00:48:37.130 --> 00:48:39.269
renowned famous poo because the largest copper

00:48:39.269 --> 00:48:42.130
i ever found as far as i know at least in york

00:48:42.130 --> 00:48:45.500
for example um but i kind of thought maybe kind

00:48:45.500 --> 00:48:47.639
of like a nice alternative would be maybe giving

00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:50.199
a voice and eyes to the sock the singular sock

00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:54.219
that they've got trying to tell but tell people

00:48:54.219 --> 00:48:55.679
of the modern age kind of like where it last

00:48:55.679 --> 00:49:00.320
saw its partner yeah the mud and filth somewhere

00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:05.019
yeah yeah so we're you know so the the ideas

00:49:05.019 --> 00:49:07.860
are are kind of circulating in the head you know

00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:10.539
like we we always have are coming up with strange

00:49:10.539 --> 00:49:14.190
ideas for the next kids book and what would work?

00:49:14.789 --> 00:49:17.429
I don't know, I think a sock would be more kosher

00:49:17.429 --> 00:49:25.530
now that I hear it. I think the project she's

00:49:25.530 --> 00:49:27.289
currently working on, you didn't say the title,

00:49:27.489 --> 00:49:31.389
but it's called The Monster on My Head. It's

00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:33.690
about little girls learning how to tame their

00:49:33.690 --> 00:49:38.119
head of hair. That's really interesting. I think

00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.420
that's a great little look with it sounds like

00:49:40.420 --> 00:49:44.559
a book that girls I think Would appreciate and

00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:48.119
certainly need in some ways Yeah, I think so

00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:52.380
and um, I haven't seen Really a lot of them.

00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:58.389
So I I was like i'm gonna make one myself I like

00:49:58.389 --> 00:50:03.570
that. They often create what they would like

00:50:03.570 --> 00:50:05.550
to read or they would like to hear or stories

00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:08.030
that they'd like to know more about and then

00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:10.369
if it happens to hit a target with a popular

00:50:10.369 --> 00:50:13.610
audience then that's a blessing kind of thing.

00:50:13.789 --> 00:50:15.250
It's partly why I do this because I just like

00:50:15.250 --> 00:50:17.210
to talk about Vikings. I don't have anyone in

00:50:17.210 --> 00:50:19.150
my immediate life or network that talks about

00:50:19.150 --> 00:50:21.289
Vikings so I piltre people from all over the

00:50:21.289 --> 00:50:30.659
world hence why you're here. Yeah, yeah and We

00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:34.880
we have our own little Viking boy now to to read

00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:37.599
this little Viking book to not that he'll sit

00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.619
very long He'd rather play with swords than then

00:50:40.619 --> 00:50:52.239
read we keep trying Inside voice That's a bluey

00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:56.699
reference if I ever heard one Oh, you might as

00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:58.820
well go, she just growls if she gets really frustrated

00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:01.519
and cross, she just turns into a growling, kind

00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:03.679
of like almost she's borderline turning into

00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:11.760
a teenager and she's only five and a half. So

00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:14.360
Crystal, were you kind of relieved to leave the

00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:17.219
vortex of Viking worlds after you finished this

00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:19.539
book, or did it kind of like leave you a little

00:51:19.539 --> 00:51:25.909
bit wanting to know more? With CJ I Mean I kind

00:51:25.909 --> 00:51:30.389
of get my daily fill with CJ every day But it

00:51:30.389 --> 00:51:32.730
did kind of leave me wanting to know a little

00:51:32.730 --> 00:51:37.570
bit more And to explore it a little bit more,

00:51:37.630 --> 00:51:43.469
but he feeds that every single day Although lately

00:51:43.469 --> 00:51:45.170
lately it's been 100 years. Well, I'm teaching

00:51:45.170 --> 00:51:47.489
a course on the hundred years war for medievalist

00:51:47.489 --> 00:51:50.110
net So actually there's some of the books back

00:51:50.110 --> 00:51:51.889
there that for the reference material I've got

00:51:51.889 --> 00:51:54.949
my stack here those books just like on the desk

00:51:54.949 --> 00:51:58.030
just ready to go like so she's been hearing a

00:51:58.030 --> 00:52:02.550
lot about the hundred years war and So now it's

00:52:02.550 --> 00:52:07.409
the new New fixation for the next how many weeks

00:52:07.409 --> 00:52:09.690
left seven. We have seven weeks left seven more

00:52:09.690 --> 00:52:15.300
weeks So I guess I should probably rephrase,

00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:21.139
I'm never left wanting. I'm never left wanting

00:52:21.139 --> 00:52:24.360
for more information because every time he comes

00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:29.039
out at night after one of those classes, you'll

00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:32.239
never guess what I talked about in my presentation

00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:36.159
or my class today. They ask wonderful questions.

00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:40.280
I have new information for you and I'm just like,

00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:43.340
didn't you? How do you come out of there with

00:52:43.340 --> 00:52:46.679
new information when you're teaching the class?

00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:50.739
He's like, well, my students. It's not new information,

00:52:50.739 --> 00:52:53.440
but it's a new way of looking new perspective.

00:52:53.940 --> 00:52:55.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes students last questions

00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:56.659
and you're just like, that's an interesting way

00:52:56.659 --> 00:52:58.519
to look at it. Let's explore that and we do the

00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:02.119
little little thought thought process in the

00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:04.960
discussion where the was it thought experiment

00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:07.880
and then and then come in and they go. Those

00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:09.519
are those are always fun because they help you.

00:53:09.550 --> 00:53:12.030
you know, kind of see things from new perspectives.

00:53:12.090 --> 00:53:13.369
But yes, I do like to share them because I'm

00:53:13.369 --> 00:53:15.949
like, I just, I just potentially learned something

00:53:15.949 --> 00:53:25.250
new. I'll be reading a bit. Oh, I just said,

00:53:25.250 --> 00:53:27.849
um, I'll be reading a bed and he'll just like

00:53:27.849 --> 00:53:30.469
slide into the room and he'll be like, guess

00:53:30.469 --> 00:53:35.210
what? Actually, first it's sweetie darling. Are

00:53:35.210 --> 00:53:40.969
you sleeping? No. Okay. Guess what? A bit of

00:53:40.969 --> 00:53:42.690
any consolation, my husband does pretty much

00:53:42.690 --> 00:53:44.929
the same thing with just his day job. He'll kind

00:53:44.929 --> 00:53:46.730
of like get frustrated about something and then

00:53:46.730 --> 00:53:48.630
he'll tell me all about it, even though I cannot

00:53:48.630 --> 00:53:50.809
help. I don't understand half of what he's frustrated

00:53:50.809 --> 00:53:53.789
about, but I'm just there to let him vent and

00:53:53.789 --> 00:53:56.909
explore and let it all out. Maybe then he'll

00:53:56.909 --> 00:53:58.869
go away and realize what he needs to do next.

00:54:00.429 --> 00:54:02.349
But I tend not to berate him too much with my

00:54:02.349 --> 00:54:05.250
history things. Although I will say this, my

00:54:05.250 --> 00:54:08.010
daughter does know who Thor is and she can say

00:54:08.010 --> 00:54:11.699
Thor's... hammer's name, but sometimes she forgets

00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:13.699
who he uses the hammer on, so I have to keep

00:54:13.699 --> 00:54:15.500
reminding her it's giants, darling, it's giants.

00:54:15.699 --> 00:54:20.940
Thor kills giants, and that's it. Did he marry

00:54:20.940 --> 00:54:26.719
one, too? Did he? The ISC are very giants, and

00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:28.539
they have romantic relationships with them, so

00:54:28.539 --> 00:54:30.059
they kill them and have romantic relationships.

00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:32.320
He's married to Sif, but I don't know if he's

00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:34.619
had affairs like, of course, his all -father

00:54:34.619 --> 00:54:38.690
Odin does, because Odin gets around a lot. Or

00:54:38.690 --> 00:54:41.389
some of the others are, you know, canoodled with

00:54:41.389 --> 00:54:44.690
giants as well. So it's, it's weird. It's a,

00:54:44.769 --> 00:54:47.150
yeah. It gets a little blurry in the details

00:54:47.150 --> 00:54:52.289
after a while. Yeah. I mean, do you think, actually,

00:54:52.369 --> 00:54:54.349
do you think you might maybe go from the history

00:54:54.349 --> 00:54:56.309
and touch more on the mythology? Possibly next

00:54:56.309 --> 00:54:58.730
book. Maybe not on all the gods, but maybe you

00:54:58.730 --> 00:55:01.630
could do a children's book about Thor. Oh, I'd

00:55:01.630 --> 00:55:03.650
be really pleased to do a book about that. That

00:55:03.650 --> 00:55:09.389
would be really fun. Yeah about so I've got one

00:55:09.389 --> 00:55:11.789
just one on my shelf and that course it touches

00:55:11.789 --> 00:55:15.409
a lot on What we know from the poet together

00:55:15.409 --> 00:55:18.469
and the pros. I don't of course snowy stillsons

00:55:18.469 --> 00:55:21.409
debatable work Yeah, you have one picture of

00:55:21.409 --> 00:55:24.170
Thor Thor the redhead of course those had many

00:55:24.170 --> 00:55:26.469
adventures Which I think kids wouldn't know about

00:55:26.469 --> 00:55:28.010
this certainly because of course kids offend

00:55:28.010 --> 00:55:32.170
the Marvel Universe version of Thor Which is

00:55:32.170 --> 00:55:35.510
very very? un -Thor -esque, I would say, based

00:55:35.510 --> 00:55:40.630
on the original. Entertaining, but not quite

00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:43.909
so, yeah, I don't want to say accurate because

00:55:43.909 --> 00:55:46.550
I don't know what's accurate and what's not.

00:55:46.829 --> 00:55:49.730
Well, the mythology is all over the place. Yeah,

00:55:49.769 --> 00:55:52.929
it's always debated. I mean, it's only, I think,

00:55:53.070 --> 00:55:55.429
kind of like in the recent century or so that

00:55:55.429 --> 00:55:57.309
a lot of academics are starting to really be

00:55:57.309 --> 00:55:59.570
critical or doubtful of what Norrie Stilson at

00:55:59.570 --> 00:56:01.860
least put, because that's what a lot of people

00:56:01.860 --> 00:56:03.820
go to when they first want to know about North

00:56:03.820 --> 00:56:06.579
mythology because he kind of wrote the handbook

00:56:06.579 --> 00:56:08.820
so to speak even though he had his own agenda

00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:12.780
and bias. Like a lot of people I've been reading

00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:15.699
about who've been studying kind of like certainly

00:56:15.699 --> 00:56:17.780
modern interpretations of mythology keep pointing

00:56:17.780 --> 00:56:20.619
out that how he did have an agenda behind it.

00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:22.980
He was a Christian scribe centuries after the

00:56:22.980 --> 00:56:25.000
time that these myths were believed in properly

00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:28.139
or worshipped properly. And that's why there

00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:31.119
are so few goddess tales, but more god tales,

00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:33.619
which is the whole of the topic. I'd love to

00:56:33.619 --> 00:56:36.099
talk to someone about kind of like the divvying

00:56:36.099 --> 00:56:38.639
up of why we've got so much about Odin, but not

00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:40.699
so much about Frigg. We know a little bit about

00:56:40.699 --> 00:56:43.579
Freyja, but not so much about Sif and all that

00:56:43.579 --> 00:56:48.639
kind of thing. You should have Mathias Nordvig

00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:51.280
on your show. He's a wealth of information on

00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:54.260
all that. I think he's currently teaching at

00:56:54.260 --> 00:56:59.880
Boulder. but uh he's uh and he's got some really

00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:03.599
interesting modern scholarly interpretations

00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:07.199
um of old mythologies so you know somebody to

00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:10.000
consider having on your show down the road thank

00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.900
you thank you i will add him to what i lovingly

00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:14.800
call my hit list even though i don't assassinate

00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:24.059
i just have them and eventually get them on Oh

00:57:24.059 --> 00:57:26.039
well it's been wonderful talking to you both

00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:28.340
and I certainly will look forward to when my

00:57:28.340 --> 00:57:30.539
own little boy is old enough to appreciate this

00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:33.840
book and I've yet to try it on my little girl

00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:36.380
simply because she's very much into her Disney

00:57:36.380 --> 00:57:40.179
Princess and Elsa era and she's got no concept

00:57:40.179 --> 00:57:43.760
of history plus having she's only just recently

00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:46.440
seen even part of her first ever David Attenborough

00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.019
nature documentary and she got quite emotional

00:57:49.019 --> 00:57:52.889
about the fate of a little shark. that was trying

00:57:52.889 --> 00:57:55.230
to be eaten by other big sharks. And she said,

00:57:55.409 --> 00:57:57.170
don't, don't, I can't look, mom, don't, tell

00:57:57.170 --> 00:57:59.570
me how, tell me who it lives. I said, well, it's

00:57:59.570 --> 00:58:01.409
predators, this is wildlife. I mean, we're predators,

00:58:01.550 --> 00:58:04.150
we kill chickens. How did you get chicken nuggets?

00:58:04.730 --> 00:58:05.969
And then of course she said, well, all parrots.

00:58:06.050 --> 00:58:07.530
So he goes like, no, I don't want chicken nuggets

00:58:07.530 --> 00:58:08.989
anymore. And I'm like, you can't tell me that,

00:58:09.050 --> 00:58:14.630
I've got 44 in the freezer. We had something

00:58:14.630 --> 00:58:18.070
similar with. with our little one. We were reading,

00:58:18.210 --> 00:58:22.510
it was like a nature book and he was very concerned

00:58:22.510 --> 00:58:27.590
about this porcupine getting overtaken by lava

00:58:27.590 --> 00:58:31.090
from a volcano and he just kept going, oh no,

00:58:31.289 --> 00:58:40.690
oh no. We changed the page like no let's keep

00:58:40.690 --> 00:58:42.110
going because the bear is going to go do this

00:58:42.110 --> 00:58:43.869
and then he'd be like no and then change the

00:58:43.869 --> 00:58:48.380
page back to the porcupine. They had to take

00:58:48.380 --> 00:58:53.000
it away from him, yeah. Trauma, that was his

00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:57.159
first trauma. I'm saving for a therapist. Just

00:58:57.159 --> 00:59:00.340
put it away in the coin jar. He's gonna need

00:59:00.340 --> 00:59:03.659
it. The crazy thing is they won't remember all

00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:05.699
these little fears that they had, but we'll remember

00:59:05.699 --> 00:59:11.500
them. Oh, well, thank you so much again guys

00:59:11.500 --> 00:59:12.699
for coming to talk to me about this wonderful

00:59:12.699 --> 00:59:15.360
book I do recommend people go get it. It's available

00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:17.960
on amazon I am a viking a history book about

00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:20.679
the vikings for kids story by cj and illustrations

00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:23.360
by lovely crystal And so thank you so much for

00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:26.280
your time today guys Thank you. Thank you for

00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:28.960
having us And of course do let me know when you

00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:31.719
next do another children's book for vikings Oh,

00:59:31.739 --> 00:59:54.320
yes Thank you very much for listening to this

00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.719
episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between

00:59:57.719 --> 01:00:01.099
my special guests and myself. Please do check

01:00:01.099 --> 01:00:03.559
out the episode blurb for links to their works

01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:06.579
and websites. If you liked this episode let me

01:00:06.579 --> 01:00:09.380
know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if

01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:11.659
you learned something new in the comments and

01:00:11.659 --> 01:00:14.780
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01:00:18.099 --> 01:00:20.639
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