Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review. how such subjects are
being presented to modern audiences today. If
you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla
and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome
everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast. This
is the very first episode, and I apologize for
being so late, of the 2020 -2026 content. season
when I can speak English. I say that my first
guest for this year is not one but two and it's
a lovely husband and wife duo both creative in
their own ways and of course both have touched
on the topic of Vikings. So I'm delighted to
welcome CJ Adrian and his wife Crystal Withouse.
Welcome to the podcast guys. Thank you. Thank
you for having us. Now you are here in my humble
virtual Valhall. to talk about your wonderful
children's book that you've done together called
I Am a Viking, a history book about the Vikings
for kids. So I guess we should start off with
where it all began. Whose idea was it? It was,
it was Kristoff. It was CJ's idea first off.
When I met him he was working on his second or
third book, I'm not quite sure. And he found
out I could draw. And he's like, oh, well, you
should do a little bit of an audition for me.
And so I drew the first page. And he was just
super excited. And he goes, well, you have to
do a kids book with me. And I'm like, I guess
I have to do it. I can be pushy, I guess. You're
making me sound like a great candidate. On the
singles market Audition for the woman Do it now
snap snap So i'm guessing kind of like then cj
have you noticed like that there's perhaps a
gap in the market for books for kids telling
them kind of the real history of vikings in this
kind of very Illustrative and kind of like very
easy to read way without being too wordy or too
bogged down in facts Yeah It began in 2018, I
want to say. Yeah, I think it was 2018. And there
was the traveling exhibition from the Swedish
National Museum that came here to Nalt. And I
happened to be visiting at the time with my first
son, who was at the time, I think, three, two,
three. And we did their whole thing. It's a wonderful
exhibit. And if you have a chance to go see it
wherever it happened, wherever you may be, if
it comes to your town, go see it. It's a must
see. I believe it was at the Smithsonian most
recently. I could be off by that. But so they
had a little gift shop at the end. They had kids
books and they had one kids book that was sponsored
by the Swedish National Museum. It was translated
in English and in French and it was by an artist
from I don't know where and reading through it.
Well, we bought it and I didn't really read through
it. Then we got home. I read it to my son. I
was like, this is awful. Objectively like There's
so much missing right? There's a lot missing
like the illustrations were really crummy and
not super Well done and the information was poorly
presented poorly translated So I was like this
isn't I'm surprised this made the cut to be part
of the Swedish National Museums You know portfolio
of things to sell at their at their exhibit.
So I kind of thought Back then, I could make
a kid's book. I just need to find a good illustrator.
So I worked over the idea in my head for a couple
of years. And then when I met Crystal, it was
just one of those far away ideas I didn't think
was ever going to happen at that point. And as
she mentioned, I was working on my novels. And
so that was really the focus. And it came up
in conversation. We'd been dating for a while,
actually. Yeah. It was like the summer. I was
like, I've got almost a year in. And she's like,
oh yeah, I draw. What do you mean you draw? This
is classic Crystal where she just, it's, you
get information on a need to know basis. If she
doesn't think you need to know, you don't get
to know. So it was just, it just came up. She's
like, I was like, oh, I'd love to make a kids
book. Oh, well I draw. Oh, well, I didn't say
you must audition. I just said, would you like
to try? And she's like, oh, OK, I'll give it
a whirl. And then she drew this picture. I'll
put it up for those watching visually. Yes. If
you're on YouTube, you can see it now. There'll
be pictures of different pages and sections popping
up throughout the interview. But also, if you're
listening on the audio podcast, do join us on
the YouTube platform. It's all wonderful. So
you can see the visual representation. And she
actually went off of the Viking kit that I had
in my office. that was displayed and you know
my background for videos and so forth and uh
and then slightly modeled off her off of my first
son right because that's who we went off of uh
and yeah i saw that and i said okay i think i
think we have an opportunity here so so then
the question was well crystal do you do you want
to make a book with me i got down on one knee
and i offered her a pen or pencil pack of pencils
and a budget and said would you like to make
will you make a kids book with me there is a
sister -in -law in the background her hamster
was present as a witness i love that i absolutely
love it because it is quite kind of like of course
as a reader and someone who loves books both
picture books story books non -fiction books
I kind of like do respect the effort that goes
into illustrated books and especially for children
because it is its art form in its own right because
it is a talent and I really like It's almost
a classic feel you are wet crystal It reminds
me of books that I grew up with and I mean that
as a compliment in the greatest way Because I've
got my own little girl who's five and a half
and some of the Illustrated books that she has
they're all flat 2d kind of like abstract images
that don't really represent anything from reality.
Whereas when I think about the books that I grew
up with in the 1980s and 90s, they had that realistic
mood about them. They just had that realistic
connection. And I really, really liked the illustrations
you've done for this book. And of course, I guess
CJ, his novels being primarily from Viking Age
historical fiction, was it a deep dive for you
to go into Vikings then and learn about what
you were then having to draw about? Uh, actually
it was. Yeah. Um, there was a lot of things that
I had no idea. I mean, the, the best, the best,
um, representation of Vikings that I knew of
was Vikings, the TV show. And I even knew that
was, you should, that was to be taken with a
grain of salt. And, um, it's pretty much been
a learning experience ever since I met him. Every
day I learn about something new, and I'm just
like, oh well, I have them to thank for my hair
tools. Oh yeah, that was surprising. I was like,
they had tweezers. They had tweezers. Well, anyone
who's been to the Louvre, we went to Paris. and
we went to the Louvre and they had the Egyptian
exhibit the ancient Egyptians had a pair of tweezers
there they had a little makeup kit and stuff
so it's not it's not the vikings but i mean the
vikings had them but they they did they were
well -groomed they had lots of combs lots and
lots of combs yeah and um so i'm learning something
new every day and kind of like was there a particular
bit kind of like because it's a lovely kind of
like got a narrative to it. So it's not just
kind of like facts and figures throwing at a
very young brain. But it kind of like that's,
I guess, where I kind of like CJ storytelling
talent comes in because it is kind of from the
perspective of a young biking boy speaking almost
directly to the reader saying, oh, yes, we do
this. We do this. We don't do that. But we also
do this. And my dad's going off to do that. And
my granddad did this. And I just like how it
kind of like really embeds the family and brings
it back down to a very human level that even
kind of like a young child can understand because
their world is their family when they're a young
child and I suppose was there a bit as you were
drawing it that kind of like really kind of like
I guess impressed you or surprised you as you
were kind of like learning through the eyes of
this Viking boy that you were drawing? Um was
one thing that surprised me in here. She's refreshing
her memory. I am refreshing my memory. I will
confirm when you've created a certain number
of works, sometimes you forget what you've done.
People will remind you and you'll say, ah, is
that really? My editor does that to me all the
time. Oh, but in book three, he did this. Oh,
right. I blame having children. It just wonders
or not for the memory. Oh, very much. I was kind
of impressed with, like, things like how they
consulted like a vulva and They they had like
this almost town hall way of Conducting themselves
when it came to laws or disagreements things
like that And even that's interesting yeah, and
even the even just the little boys learning learning
how to fight from their teacher, starting very
young, which I assume they did start very young.
If you were the chieftain's son, sure. If you're
a farmer's son, maybe not so much. You get a
pitchfork early in the Viking Age. But I was
really impressed with, even though I feel like
they're kind of like a nomadic kind of culture,
in a way. You've heard me say that a lot, yeah.
Okay, yeah. I was impressed with, like, even
though they're a nomadic kind of culture, their
sense of community. Yeah, she's referring specifically
to some of those frameworks like Christian Koidman's
Monarchs and Hydraks, where he talks about these
being floating communities of people on boats,
and so we can almost see them through the same
lens as we might see the Huns or the Magyars
you know and they weren't just it wasn't just
men who roved it was entire families in certain
respects especially those who went to Iceland
and those who were attempting colonization efforts
Normandy etc and so yeah that's something that
Crystal's been picking up on of oh yeah it's
a floating it's a she's right you've heard me
say that it's a community well and and when we
were making the book I was writing book three
of mine which is called the kings of the sea
where I pick up on that idea and so I was trying
to play with this idea that these fleets are
actually floating cities and they can go anywhere
they want and set up shop and you know so and
that's something that we had talked about when
you were making the book yeah I was like oh yeah
it's just little bits and pieces of new information
a little conversation while I drew things and
um like about their I guess Myths and legends
or I would call it their religion in a way Yeah,
I thought that was kind of interesting how that
were again it kind of circles back to the vulva
Mmm I mean that bit as well. I must admit that
a bit impressed me because it's not often that
kind of like I've got a couple and it literally
is only a couple because I've got a shelf full
of children's books featuring Vikings in various
guises, both kind of like historical and fantastical,
because of course I've got Christina Cowell's
wonderful How to Change a Dragon. Even if they
do all wear horned helmets and happen to have
dragons, it's still got Vikings in, so I like
it. But there's not many kind of like references
to kind of like the girls or the women of the
North society and culture that besides kind of
that really come through in books for children
it is often kind of like from the boys perspective
or the teenage boys perspective or the men's
perspective because of course they're the ones
that globally made the biggest impact I suppose
because they were the ones going off their long
ships and raiding and pillaging and doing other
wonderful things. And aptly enough, we are discussing
this on International Women's Day. So it's quite
nice that you picked up on the vulva because
that is, I think that is a figure of great mystery
and great interest to a lot of people because
we don't know much about how they practice what
they did. We can find their burials. We can roughly
identify them from the artifacts found within
them, but we don't really know how they did what
they did. So it's especially kind of like when
you think about the Viking series which you mentioned
and the vulva in that one kind of like being
one of great prophecy but also kind of like singled
out in society because of their disability and
malformed face kind of thing. It's always interesting
how women characters are interpreted when they're
coming from especially kind of with this book
kind of like from a very common background. kind
of like other Viking village and a chieftain
and a family and that kind of glimpses a small
microcosm of society instead of looking at a
queen or a kind of like, of course we've got
Lagertha, again referring back to Vikings and
kind of like female figures from sagas, not necessarily
history but certainly sagas. So it's interesting
that you picked up on the vulgar because I think
a lot of people would find that more interesting.
And it did make me think when I was reviewing
this book, kind of like it is nice that it is
from the boy's perspective, because being the
chief and son, they did have the most power,
the prestige, the status. But we don't really
know much about the girls besides them going
off to get married with so -and -so son at some
point. So maybe that's something you could address
later on, CJ. Yeah. Or you. Or me. You can come
up with a girl's perspective. I think that would
be more natural. And then you just use me as
a historical consultant. Yeah, I can make a girl's
book on what happened in the Vikings' age, what
she did every day. She's in here. I mean, she's
a character. She is a character. There's a sister.
Yeah, she gets a dress from the dad who brings
it back from France. He's like, here's a nice
dress and a glass bead necklace from Italy. Yeah.
All the interesting things and you see like the
mom she's taking care of the household and she's
making sure he takes a bath even though he really
doesn't want to. That was my life. Especially
because kind of like it made me think back to
I think it was somewhere in the angle if not
the anglo -saxon Chronicle definitely a piece
of manuscript from the anglo -saxon times of
the anglo -saxons complaining about how all their
women are chasing after the vikings because they're
all clean they take more baths and the men and
I just That's true, that's a real thing. Yeah,
because they were they were well, it's it it
ties back to the idea in Christianity that vanity
is a sin. Although in the wider population, it
wasn't so practiced as it was amongst the clergy.
And I like there's a writer from, I believe,
the 11th century, John of Wallingford, who famously
said, the smellier we are, the holier we are.
So there is this interesting thing where that's
where a lot of the kind of myth around how dirty
people were in the Middle Ages, vanity is a sin,
so Christian Europeans in the Middle Ages were
dirty. Actually no, they had baths and they had
bath houses. Some of them were run by the church
actually. But still we have this myth because
it's true that in monastic communities they were
averse to bathing because of trying to be as
non -vein as possible, right? So it's like stay
as clean as you need to to not die of an infection
but no more. Well then I am certainly vain because
you'll have a good shower. Good hot shower. Well
we know, we all know and appreciate the kind
of like the daily practice of modern hygiene
these days because they wouldn't have cleaned
their teeth and they didn't have half the sugar
that we have in our own diet. But then, of course,
their bread was probably rock hard as well, because
they didn't have fine milled white flour, like
we all enjoy. As you mentioned, CJ, the robes
from France and the glass beads from Italy, were
there particular artifacts that you came across
in your own research and studies that you wanted
to then place into this narrative to give it
that connection to real things that have been
found? Yeah. I used the main book that I bought
from the Swedish National Museum exhibit and
used a lot of the artifacts that were contained
in there and then when presenting the story I
started my career as a school teacher so I understand
how kids think what they respond to that sort
of thing so that's why I went with the this is
just a this is a seven -year -old boy doing a
show and tell for his class kind of thing right
it's like bring your dad to work day kind of
thing so he's like So that was the idea. And
then a lot of the artifacts that you see in here
are things, you know, so like the Volvo staff,
for example, that was one of the artifacts that's
at that traveling display for the Swedish National
Museum. There's lots of different Volvo staffs
too. That was just the one that I thought was
aesthetically pleasing. Or alleged. They're not
sure. And let's see, there were the combs and
the picks, of course, which we've already talked
about. And what else was there? The beads, of
course. Amulets. I think the one discussion that
we had was how to address violence. And that's
the criticism I've gotten from people when I've
tried to promote the book. is how dare you make
a children's book about the Viking Age? Weren't
they just all rapists and murderers and et cetera?
And it's like, well, to a significant degree,
they were, but also they weren't, right? I mean,
this is part of the great migrations period.
If you think the Vikings were violent, try Charlemagne.
that guy was exceedingly violent and he had levers
of power and resources the vikings didn't have
so he was killing people on a massive scale compared
to the vikings uh so you know it's like were
they more violent than anybody else no um they
were just doing what people did back then it's
a subsistence society so you know if i'm hungry
and there's no food i have to go get food and
if the only you know only way to get food is
to fight somebody for it that's what's going
to happen so that we did we did debate because
we have the the infamous scene where they're
chasing away monks from a monastery. We politely
ask them to leave. Yes, and we politely ask them
to leave. So I had to really think about how
would a kid you know, synthesize that, right?
To make, you know, make, understand how would
it be communicated to a child that that's happening
or that's what they do. So I asked my son, because
he was all into the Vikings, you know, so he's,
he grew up around my shields and my kit and,
you know, the books and everything. I was always
big, you know, his first name's Leaf, so he's...
obviously named after a viking uh leaf uh like
leaf the uh the lucky and then his middle name
is william and people go oh that's pretty vanilla
i was like like william the conqueror but uh
so i asked him i said uh what do you think they're
doing and he just says he just said it just so
innocently he's like oh they're just asking them
to leave Okay, okay, and so that's how we're
gonna do it Yeah, yeah, so there's not and then
because he's a kid in a village he's not I mean
You know, it's it's I can't we it's very it is
still geared toward a modern audience if we had
made his perspective purely Viking It's like
always saying in other forms is never go full
Viking because you'll just alienate modern audiences
But children at the time would have been exposed
to a level of violence that kids today just don't.
Because you're on a farm. You're killing animals
every day to live. And then there's violence
happening between the different factions and
so forth. So we don't get a lot of that from
him, although we do get the whole he's being
trained to fight because he wants to be like
his dad. Right. So there's. So that's kind of
that's the approach we took. It's kind of a middle
of the road. It's still very G rated. So. Yeah,
I think another thing we we decided to omit from
the book was when we talked about slavery. Oh,
yeah. Yeah. That was that was a crystal decision.
That was. Yeah, I thought that I was like, that's
let's let's leave that out of out of the book.
Because we we talked about isolation you wouldn't
be the first because I remember learning about
Vikings in my GCSE history. Yeah, I Actually
know before my GCSE because I didn't some strange
reason fate made me not choose history of my
GCSE But I learned about it before because we
learned about Vikings versus Alfred, but we never
ever touched on slavery we touched about the
raids and of course how they killed lots of priests
and monks in various monasteries and things like
that never touched on slavery and it is definitely
a thing that not many people realize about the
Vikings and equally about your point CJ kind
of like how yes they were violent and yes they
killed people but so did everyone else in that
era. I mean England was a set of feudal kingdoms
just like Scandinavia was a set of feudal kingdoms
before either of them found their own united
identity as a kingdom of their own kind of thing.
Yeah, actually, I have the page here. So there's
a page where it says, in the autumn, they return
with lots of gold and silver and exciting stories
of their adventures. And there was originally
a page after that that had the slaves with the
iron collars, like they have in the exhibit.
And then if I recall correctly, the line that
I put was, they also bring people back that I'm
not allowed to talk to, or something like that.
And Crystal's like, no, don't do it. Well, in
a strange way, so, like, just reverting, taking
that idea, linking it back to the Viking series,
and I'm trying not to make too much about the
Viking series because they've been discussed
and researched many times over now. It's been
around for a long time. But that is one thing
I think I would tip my hat to them in that they
did show kind of the aspect of a Christian monk
being taken and turned into a slave, but also
how they kind of, like, maybe address the language
barrier, because that's something that always
puzzles me, kind of, like, I know anglo -saxons
shared a lot of words that were similar to kind
of like old norse but of course there wasn't
just old norse from norway there was danes there
was swedes and they all had their own native
tongue so i do kind of depending on which viking
took you you may not maybe able to understand
what your new master was telling you to do and
thus the beatings and stuff um but i was kind
of like impressed with the um i think it was
astelstam his name was i think it was it's been
a long time since sounds right sounds right yeah
with his storyline although I didn't like the
way it ended but most of his storyline I was
impressed with and how that relationship came
across but of course as a kid's book yes there
probably are limits we have to set in terms of
kind of like you don't have rape for a course
in this book and I remember an early episode
I did with the lovely Dr. Chris Tuckley, formerly
of the Orbit Viking Center in York Archaeology,
but now working at Selby Abbey, we were discussing
the Eric the Viking by the Monty Python film,
and how that features rape from the start. And
yet you wouldn't have that nowadays, but that
was just back in the 1980s when it was, that
was just their cultural view of Vikings and how
they raped and pillaged, and that was it. So
it's nice to see that. That subject actually
is a debated one. So if you go to the source
material, the word rape is conspicuously absent.
The monks were not telling us that they were
going around. The rape thing is a 19th century
assumption. Oh, well, they must have been doing
this. But if you look at the early targets, they're
hitting monasteries. And if you look at Norse
culture from, say, the Icelandic sagas, like
Ergi, which is homosexuality, was very frowned
upon. That would make you a new thing. And so
that would which is an untouchable, basically.
So so, you know, were they were they raping monks?
I mean, I'm sure there's a few. But but generally
speaking, it's not something that's that's well
attested or attested at all. in the primary sources
it's just assumed and if we look at the genetic
spread it's true that you know the well actually
even the genetic spread like all the genetic
studies it's still in its infancy so it's it's
not clear i mean the assumption is if you take
slaves home and some of those are women they're
not going to have a good time um and but the
but the it's there there have there have been
papers on this idea of in popular culture the
first people say about vikings is rape then pillage
then this but Actually, hopefully we don't get
you banned from YouTube by saying this word too
much. But in the primary sources, it's not there.
So it's an interesting modern lens that's actually
been transposed onto the Viking Age without clear
evidence to support it. Now we can all assume
that there was some of that, if not quite a bit
of that going on just because of the time period
and population movements and so forth. but um
is probably not the thing we should all lead
with right pillaging is should probably be number
one I mean that makes sense when you think about
slavery too because they obviously wouldn't want
to get a lot of their female slaves pregnant
because then that's just extra extra effort for
that to keep them alive whereas they want them
to be in good condition for sale at the markets
you want labor That also kind of explains a little
bit why they would have attacked monasteries
first because monasteries a held a lot of wealth
But be the people you could capture in a monastery
were men and men were better at working the fields,
right? There's more straight. They're stronger
And so there's there's you if you're looking
for cheap labor, that's who you're gonna target
first And then if you and then if you get some
women just by happenstance, you know, maybe well
and then we have the example of how you know,
the genetic testing done in Iceland has also
shown that a significant portion of their ancestry
is Irish, because Icelanders went down to Ireland,
captured women, okay, so that one. I was gonna
say, I was like, wasn't there a shortage of wives,
so to speak, and that was another reason why
they they pillaged, because they needed women?
Well, for Iceland specifically, yeah. Okay. They
went to, we have evidence to show that they went
to Ireland, grabbed some women, and then made
babies with them. And I don't think we should
assume that it was consensual. So yeah. So yes,
I mean, so I'm not saying that it didn't happen,
but I do like to bring up the idea that the fact
that it's something that popular culture leads
with, but it's something that's not at all tested
in the sources, makes it one of those thorny
little issues that not a lot of people want to
bring up because it's dangerous territory, especially
in modern times right because you can get you
can uh gosh i don't want to use the wrong idiom
talking about it either i was just about to say
i appreciate you bringing it up cj i really do
appreciate bringing it up because it is certainly
a nice angle or an aspect that i've never actually
realized or considered and yet i am the product
of all this popular culture messaging going out
there and what thinking like as you say it's
become such kind of like a cliche phrase like
as part of the stereotype As much as the horned
helmets and which of course I'm delighted to
say that you don't feature at all I'm a I'm a
horned helmets evangelist anti evangelist If
in fact if you go to my website I have two articles
now because I I did a part two Where I explore
the topic of did they wear helmets at all? Especially
in the early Viking age because we only have
one preserved helmet from the viking age that
is confirmed uh confirmed to be quote unquote
viking now we can argue the nomenclature of that
but we'll just use the loose set popular culture
sense of the term but it's the gerbende helmet
which was found in norway now people will point
to the weymouth helmet which is in England, as,
oh no, that one's from the Viking Age. Actually,
no. All they found was a jawbone. The museum
thought, gosh, a jawbone by itself doesn't look
very good. What if we made up this helmet and
put it here? Really? It's a fabrication. It's
actually a fabrication by the museum. Scandal.
And then there are shards, like pieces of helmet
from different places in Poland and the Baltic
states. But there's not enough for us to do any
sort of recreation. So we don't know. So there's
only one helmet. And then that begs the question,
why? Why do we have so, you know, and one of
the theories is that, oh, maybe they're just
repurposes, metal is repurposed. Actually, why
would that be? Because think of how many swords
we have. Think of how many Ofbert swords we have.
144 Ofbert swords, Damaskine steel. Those would
have been exceptionally rare. And we don't have
any helmets. Like none, zero. Although, but then
you have from the life of Saint -Oubin in France,
this is Viking all wearing helmets. So the chroniclers
are thinking, oh, these guys, but is that just
a later fabrication? where they, again, the assumption
that we know what these guys were about, they
must have all been wearing helmets, right? But
it's not clear. I am thinking about the Bay of
Tapestry, which is actually due to arrive at
the British Library, not library, British Museum,
I should say, not library, British Museum, this
summer. So we're borrowing it from Normandy for
a little bit. for the first time in quite a while
I believe. And the Normans had helmets and that's
that's well documented but we can't really call
them Viking at that point because they had become
the ruling class of a of a French territory so
it's so it's really that's an early medieval
kind of early knight kind of helmet right in
fact it's called Norman casque so it's not even
but so far as the Viking age is concerned it
is not clear that they wore helmets at all, especially
early in the Viking Age. Now, later in the Viking
Age, we can start pointing to other pieces of
evidence to show that maybe they did. But the
lack of evidence is really surprising. And it's
an unsolved mystery. It's unanswerable, because
lack of evidence does not mean that they didn't
exist. But then again, you know. It doesn't prove
that they existed either, you know So we're kind
of we're stuck in this universal negative that
we can't get out of so I have two articles that
I've gone over both sides of the argument Thoroughly
and I tend to lean toward the I think early in
the Viking Age They were like 16 year old boys
who want to go ride their bike and I wear your
helmet now Well, if you're not gonna wear them
I'm not gonna use this very precious iron to
make you a helmet I'll just make something else
that we can use on the farm and you can go risk
your life getting hit in the head Also with Rainer
Oskarson and William Short, who wrote Men of
Terror, I had this conversation with them. Now
they didn't, they were reluctant to really answer,
but one of the things that we had talked about,
one of the ideas that we talked about, is this
idea of Drenger, like the honor, right? I don't
want to call it an otter code, but it's like
the kind of the expected conduct of a warrior
and being brave and so forth. And it could be
that they didn't wear helmets on purpose. because
it was a show of Valor and so forth. All this,
by the way, came up during the show Vikings when
people were like, why don't the main characters
wear helmets? And I was like, aha, this is where
Viking, the show Vikings might actually have
done something right by accident. Now you're
making me flick through my copy because it's
got me thinking about something I learned really
recently, which actually reflects the kind of
the idea, as you say, of the Viking helmet, even
though we have, I would say only one. actual
example of it. I was able to go to one event
for the Orbit Viking Festival this year which
was the Valhalla symposium. It's Viking age living
history for all assembly and it's just with lots
of living historians as they now like to be known
sharing their research and what they do and practice
and there was a guy that did the last speech
and he was speaking about male in corrections
all that it's not chain mail it's male and how
there is only one male that's been dated from
a grave from the viking age but how his theory
was that a lot of the mail we think these vikings
had was very rare because it was very costly
because it was a high prize material and then
they probably didn't make it themselves it was
probably old roman centurion stuff from when
the roman empire collapsed and that just got
passed around and either got passed down generations
or it got melted down back into iron and turned
into something else. Which was really surprising
because of course as Crystal has mentioned in
the Viking series there's a lot of mail going
around they just seem to be exceptionally wealthy
with their mail and their leather armor in both
degrees. Yeah The Franks were making it The Franks
were making quite a bit of mail so it could be
that they were just picked off of dead dead people
That's why I do in my books. They're not making
any of this stuff It's it's they will be the
battle and they'll take down like a wealthy Frankish
You know soldier or noble and then and then oh,
that's my mail now And then in fact, there's
a there's a scene in one of the books where they're
like, does anyone know how to fix this? There's
a hole in mine and just don't stab that guy so
hard next time Yeah, this guy actually points
out to a scene I think it's like one of those
kind of like border scenes in the base tapestry
where it does appear that someone is pulling
the the male off a dead warrior. I can't remember
if it was a dead Norman. Hopefully a dead Norman.
I think all the Normans were depicted in male.
I don't think the Anglo -Saxons were that fortunate.
Do we actually, in the book we have the father.
How do you do it? And you're gonna laugh because
we just talked about all this, but he's wearing
a Gherbundu helmet, he's got an Ulfbert, and
then he's wearing a male, and then he's got a
leather, one of those leather jerkins on top.
of the mail. So it's a deliberate choice to kind
of, it's just to really frame it in. This is,
if you could imagine the wealthiest of the wealthy,
like basically the guy who owned the Yorubundu
helmet, what would he have looked like? And so
I put in, so I recommended to Crystal to do,
you know, like kit them out the best you can.
No guarantees that this guy would have actually
existed, but at least you get to see some of
the artifacts that have been recovered. That's
a nice touch So I made him as pretty as possible
I I made him as pretty as possible By Viking
standards he is of course very pretty because
of course there be beards for a big thing everyone
thinks of Vikings long beards and plats and little
ornaments going in So, how long did it take you
both to work on this book and then eventually
get ready for being published Was it a year?
More than a year? A couple years? I want to say
it took about like, because I did it like almost
every day, so it took about I did like three
pictures a week. I don't know. I want to say
like a couple months, yeah. Three to six months
in total. I think my part took 20 minutes. I
just it's because it's I live in this world right
so it's just it didn't take long to come up with
the different things and then not everything
that I did ended up in the book but um and not
all the pictures that you drew ended up in the
book either right so we had uh yeah I think it
took took a solid couple of months then then
it had to be like you know so edited and refinished
why don't you talk about your art style like
how how you drew it because I think that's really
oh um I I chose kind of, I would call it cartoony.
Some people would call it maybe a little anime
-ish, but I feel like it's maybe something in
between. I wanted it to be a little more realistic
in like how you're talking about very like 2D,
very abstract, very simple. I wanted it to be
a little more detailed. It's all pencil drawn
by hand, right? Yes, it's all pencil drawn by
hand. I've tried doing digital pads and programs
and things like that, but it just doesn't have
the same feel to it. No. I can't create the way
I want to. I prefer the feel of the pencil on
the paper. I agree. It's something I remember
a lot about my kids books, my favourite ones
from when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s.
They were all hand -drawn. They all looked like
a Shirley Hughes series. They all got that hand
-drawn feel. It connects more on a very visual
and almost emotional level than just something
that's done digitally, I think. So that immediately
appealed to me just as soon as I saw the car.
Oh, it's hand -drawn. I can see the coloring
marks. It just got me all excited. Oh, I'm glad.
I'm glad that it makes me excited, too. Just
like I said, the feel of it. And I feel like
you get almost, I mean, yes, like digital, you
can kind of do whatever you want and you can
make it as vivid as you want. But there's something
There's something just more tangible and more
earthy and more colorful about actually doing
it with the real colored pencils, with clay,
with charcoal, even with just felt paper. Yeah,
once it was drawn, then you had to outline everything.
Oh yeah, I had to outline everything. I had to
blend the colored pencil because I used Prismas
to do the coloring and it's a kind of colored
pencil that's like clay, almost, as opposed to
regular kind of graphite colored pencils. Yeah.
And so I had a really good time with it Well,
I'm curious now to learn about what pages of
parts of the story that didn't make the cut so
to speak We know you intentionally didn't slavery
Did you just do a lot and they couldn't fit it
all in for budgetary reasons or you just wanted
it to be a short book No, I think it was just
creative choices. There's just some stuff that
was like you know, is this something that anybody
needs to know some of it's like it's some of
the more controversial stuff did this really
happen was this really a thing and it's like
maybe maybe you know maybe kind of keep it out
so i just i really wanted to keep it is as um
as faithful to the current scholarship as we
could without diving too deep into into the controversies
and the stuff that's still a toss -up and debatable
I mean, there's stuff in here that's definitely
still not completely known. And so that'll be
in there. I mean, we're dealing with a time and
place where we really have so little evidence
that it's like trying to put together a puzzle
with half the pieces. So yeah. But I think everything
in here, I mean, it's like I said to Crystal
a couple of times since we released the book,
I was like, this is the book I'm most proud of.
I didn't do most of it. Because it's one thing
to write it down, right? Which is fine. But it's
another thing to see somebody render that into
art. And I think the drawings are just outstayed.
I mean, this is the book I would want for my
kids. That made me really happy when I saw that,
where I was like, oh man, you get, I mean, that's
just, and this could be a best seller. I mean,
of course, you know. This could be outstanding,
amazing even. But yeah, I think the final product
came out better than we could have imagined.
I'm really pleased. Yeah, we got married. I'm
sorry, I didn't split you up. Because you said
the final product turned out better than we could
have imagined. I was like, yeah, we got married.
Oh, yeah, there's that. That's it. That's how
we were like, oh, we, you know, it's when you
work on a project together, that's when you find
out each other's, you know, stuff. And that's
when things can get really hairy. You hear about
it all the time, couples who go into business
together, and then this just destroys the marriage,
destroys their lives. And you're like, oh, man.
But we worked on this project. And it turns out
we work really well together. We have complementary
character strengths that mesh really well to
be able to create a final product. And I think
creating a book like this is a great example
of what great things can be done when you have
the right partner. I agree. I agree. So I guess
a quick question for you then, both, would kind
of like, do you think you'd ever work on another
book together, Viking or non -Viking? I mean,
obviously, I was going to be Viking to a degree,
I suppose. Yes, could be a little Viking. We've
talked about it. I think with having a baby thrown
into the mix, it's been a little hard to actually
make it happen. We want to do another one at
some point. The girl one or we talked about doing
one about nights. That was an interesting one.
We thought about doing just a whole little series
about different subjects in history. And also
I'm up for it when you have your the one that
you're working on. Oh, yeah your project I'm
working on my own project right now. It's not
it's not a history a history book, but it's just
it's just a good little book for it's geared
toward little girls and It's kind of like a little
journey of like self acceptance and making friends
and I think it'll be a nice little addition to
my, I guess you could call it my portfolio. But
I'm open to doing more, more little history books
for kids. Well, that's lovely to hear because
certainly got me thinking kind of like what else
can they do besides the generic biking. aspect
like could you do one like on specific historical
figures such as kind of like leaf the lucky or
william the conqueror and tell it from their
point of view so to speak but i guess there's
a lot of history involved with both characters
it depends on how you narrow it down and simplify
it again for children no matter what age group
you're looking at i really like the girls percent
you know instead of i'm a viking i'm a shield
maiden that'd be awesome i'm a shield maiden
that would be awesome and we could use like the
burka warrior right jb whatever the yeah and
how she's an archer and oh yeah and that'd be
interesting that'd be fun i think that would
be fun yeah i mean nancy marie brown's written
about her kind of like very specifically from
a very narrative point of view albeit then going
into the history of where this woman could have
been and where she went and learned her military
skills and stuff so i don't see how it couldn't
be a children's book about her oh uh i do have
one This is a real one that we've entertained
that I've actually written out. And it's an exploration
of the Viking Age for the York Viking Museum.
But the problem is I want to make sure that everything
we do is kosher with the museum itself, because
I want to go through, because I have pictures
of all their exhibits and everything. But from
the perspective of Lloyd the Viking poo, Oh,
wow. And so basically do like a, you know, a
hanky the Christmas poo from South Park, right?
So basically the and and Crystal started drawing
the beginning where they're two kids are looking
in at the glass with the with the cope, the Lloyds
Bank coprolite, and then it's eyes open and go.
And he's just like, and I don't. And I don't
have a unique voice for him yet, but he'd be
like, howdy ho, I'm Lloyd the Viking too. And
then the kids have the kids on the side where
he's teaching them all about the Viking age,
but the kids in the back are just horrified by
this grotesque abomination. Anyway, it's one
of those ideas. But I think it would be funny
and you could still be educational. I think kids
would get a kick out of it. The thing is how
you know that's not actually get away with it
would the yeah i think the viking museum or the
yeah the the museum in york would have to sign
off on it and i don't i don't even know how to
navigate their system yet so yeah especially
whether the adults would be the museum would
be happy with with a poo becoming i mean it is
renowned famous poo because the largest copper
i ever found as far as i know at least in york
for example um but i kind of thought maybe kind
of like a nice alternative would be maybe giving
a voice and eyes to the sock the singular sock
that they've got trying to tell but tell people
of the modern age kind of like where it last
saw its partner yeah the mud and filth somewhere
yeah yeah so we're you know so the the ideas
are are kind of circulating in the head you know
like we we always have are coming up with strange
ideas for the next kids book and what would work?
I don't know, I think a sock would be more kosher
now that I hear it. I think the project she's
currently working on, you didn't say the title,
but it's called The Monster on My Head. It's
about little girls learning how to tame their
head of hair. That's really interesting. I think
that's a great little look with it sounds like
a book that girls I think Would appreciate and
certainly need in some ways Yeah, I think so
and um, I haven't seen Really a lot of them.
So I I was like i'm gonna make one myself I like
that. They often create what they would like
to read or they would like to hear or stories
that they'd like to know more about and then
if it happens to hit a target with a popular
audience then that's a blessing kind of thing.
It's partly why I do this because I just like
to talk about Vikings. I don't have anyone in
my immediate life or network that talks about
Vikings so I piltre people from all over the
world hence why you're here. Yeah, yeah and We
we have our own little Viking boy now to to read
this little Viking book to not that he'll sit
very long He'd rather play with swords than then
read we keep trying Inside voice That's a bluey
reference if I ever heard one Oh, you might as
well go, she just growls if she gets really frustrated
and cross, she just turns into a growling, kind
of like almost she's borderline turning into
a teenager and she's only five and a half. So
Crystal, were you kind of relieved to leave the
vortex of Viking worlds after you finished this
book, or did it kind of like leave you a little
bit wanting to know more? With CJ I Mean I kind
of get my daily fill with CJ every day But it
did kind of leave me wanting to know a little
bit more And to explore it a little bit more,
but he feeds that every single day Although lately
lately it's been 100 years. Well, I'm teaching
a course on the hundred years war for medievalist
net So actually there's some of the books back
there that for the reference material I've got
my stack here those books just like on the desk
just ready to go like so she's been hearing a
lot about the hundred years war and So now it's
the new New fixation for the next how many weeks
left seven. We have seven weeks left seven more
weeks So I guess I should probably rephrase,
I'm never left wanting. I'm never left wanting
for more information because every time he comes
out at night after one of those classes, you'll
never guess what I talked about in my presentation
or my class today. They ask wonderful questions.
I have new information for you and I'm just like,
didn't you? How do you come out of there with
new information when you're teaching the class?
He's like, well, my students. It's not new information,
but it's a new way of looking new perspective.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes students last questions
and you're just like, that's an interesting way
to look at it. Let's explore that and we do the
little little thought thought process in the
discussion where the was it thought experiment
and then and then come in and they go. Those
are those are always fun because they help you.
you know, kind of see things from new perspectives.
But yes, I do like to share them because I'm
like, I just, I just potentially learned something
new. I'll be reading a bit. Oh, I just said,
um, I'll be reading a bed and he'll just like
slide into the room and he'll be like, guess
what? Actually, first it's sweetie darling. Are
you sleeping? No. Okay. Guess what? A bit of
any consolation, my husband does pretty much
the same thing with just his day job. He'll kind
of like get frustrated about something and then
he'll tell me all about it, even though I cannot
help. I don't understand half of what he's frustrated
about, but I'm just there to let him vent and
explore and let it all out. Maybe then he'll
go away and realize what he needs to do next.
But I tend not to berate him too much with my
history things. Although I will say this, my
daughter does know who Thor is and she can say
Thor's... hammer's name, but sometimes she forgets
who he uses the hammer on, so I have to keep
reminding her it's giants, darling, it's giants.
Thor kills giants, and that's it. Did he marry
one, too? Did he? The ISC are very giants, and
they have romantic relationships with them, so
they kill them and have romantic relationships.
He's married to Sif, but I don't know if he's
had affairs like, of course, his all -father
Odin does, because Odin gets around a lot. Or
some of the others are, you know, canoodled with
giants as well. So it's, it's weird. It's a,
yeah. It gets a little blurry in the details
after a while. Yeah. I mean, do you think, actually,
do you think you might maybe go from the history
and touch more on the mythology? Possibly next
book. Maybe not on all the gods, but maybe you
could do a children's book about Thor. Oh, I'd
be really pleased to do a book about that. That
would be really fun. Yeah about so I've got one
just one on my shelf and that course it touches
a lot on What we know from the poet together
and the pros. I don't of course snowy stillsons
debatable work Yeah, you have one picture of
Thor Thor the redhead of course those had many
adventures Which I think kids wouldn't know about
this certainly because of course kids offend
the Marvel Universe version of Thor Which is
very very? un -Thor -esque, I would say, based
on the original. Entertaining, but not quite
so, yeah, I don't want to say accurate because
I don't know what's accurate and what's not.
Well, the mythology is all over the place. Yeah,
it's always debated. I mean, it's only, I think,
kind of like in the recent century or so that
a lot of academics are starting to really be
critical or doubtful of what Norrie Stilson at
least put, because that's what a lot of people
go to when they first want to know about North
mythology because he kind of wrote the handbook
so to speak even though he had his own agenda
and bias. Like a lot of people I've been reading
about who've been studying kind of like certainly
modern interpretations of mythology keep pointing
out that how he did have an agenda behind it.
He was a Christian scribe centuries after the
time that these myths were believed in properly
or worshipped properly. And that's why there
are so few goddess tales, but more god tales,
which is the whole of the topic. I'd love to
talk to someone about kind of like the divvying
up of why we've got so much about Odin, but not
so much about Frigg. We know a little bit about
Freyja, but not so much about Sif and all that
kind of thing. You should have Mathias Nordvig
on your show. He's a wealth of information on
all that. I think he's currently teaching at
Boulder. but uh he's uh and he's got some really
interesting modern scholarly interpretations
um of old mythologies so you know somebody to
consider having on your show down the road thank
you thank you i will add him to what i lovingly
call my hit list even though i don't assassinate
i just have them and eventually get them on Oh
well it's been wonderful talking to you both
and I certainly will look forward to when my
own little boy is old enough to appreciate this
book and I've yet to try it on my little girl
simply because she's very much into her Disney
Princess and Elsa era and she's got no concept
of history plus having she's only just recently
seen even part of her first ever David Attenborough
nature documentary and she got quite emotional
about the fate of a little shark. that was trying
to be eaten by other big sharks. And she said,
don't, don't, I can't look, mom, don't, tell
me how, tell me who it lives. I said, well, it's
predators, this is wildlife. I mean, we're predators,
we kill chickens. How did you get chicken nuggets?
And then of course she said, well, all parrots.
So he goes like, no, I don't want chicken nuggets
anymore. And I'm like, you can't tell me that,
I've got 44 in the freezer. We had something
similar with. with our little one. We were reading,
it was like a nature book and he was very concerned
about this porcupine getting overtaken by lava
from a volcano and he just kept going, oh no,
oh no. We changed the page like no let's keep
going because the bear is going to go do this
and then he'd be like no and then change the
page back to the porcupine. They had to take
it away from him, yeah. Trauma, that was his
first trauma. I'm saving for a therapist. Just
put it away in the coin jar. He's gonna need
it. The crazy thing is they won't remember all
these little fears that they had, but we'll remember
them. Oh, well, thank you so much again guys
for coming to talk to me about this wonderful
book I do recommend people go get it. It's available
on amazon I am a viking a history book about
the vikings for kids story by cj and illustrations
by lovely crystal And so thank you so much for
your time today guys Thank you. Thank you for
having us And of course do let me know when you
next do another children's book for vikings Oh,
yes Thank you very much for listening to this
episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between
my special guests and myself. Please do check
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