Welcome everyone to a very special bonus
episode of our Valhalla Conversations. And this
one is all about the lovely artist Sam Flegel
who's a returning guest to our great Mead Hall
of the Gods because he has got a very special
and exciting Kickstarter that is now live, that
is now receiving funding and it needs you, dear
viewers and listeners, to help it reach its own
goal because... He has done some marvelous meditation
and indeed artistic translation of the original
Loki Senna, which is the oldest poetic verse
featuring Loki himself, doing what Loki does
best, insulting everyone else, and just being
a general kind of like rogue, if put it politely.
So welcome, Sam. I love that. What a delightfully
British way of describing Loki as a rogue. I
love it. Thanks for having me. We're welcome
to have you back. And of course, for those who
are on YouTube, you can observe the beautiful,
large, exclusive artworks that you can get with
certain tiers of the Kickstarter, I believe.
framed up beautifully behind Salomon. If you're
listening on all the audio channels, please do
come on over to YouTube because you really need
to see his artwork. It is stunning. It is ink
blobs and line art. Is that the correct way of
describing it? Yeah. So I start with ink blobs,
which involves me taking watered down ink and
just smearing all sorts of stuff around. And
I mean, I use everything from like a water spray
bottle to an old Amazon gift card that I'll run
over the whole thing and I just try to make different
varied shapes and then I go in with pencil and
Find the illustration inside of that and then
I finish it using brush and ink and Then a little
bit of acrylic white at the end to to finish
the piece, but yeah Well, it is stunning. To
kind of like whet the appetite of our viewers
and listeners, would you mind describing the
pieces you've got beautifully framed behind you?
Yeah, sure. I'd be happy to. So the one directly
above my head is one I've been promoting a lot
with the Kickstarter, and I call that one the
Gate of Death. It comes from a line when it's
very late in the Lokasenna when Thor, who was
absent for about the first 90 % of the poem,
he shows up at the end and gets in a fight with
Loki as one would expect. And so he threatens
that he's going to hit Loki with his hammer and
send him down to the Gate of Death. So for that
one, that's why I have kind of the Thor's hammer
shape. Basically as a negative space or there's
nothing there and then I filled it all up with
various Skeletons and warriors and all the sorts
of things that are described in the Viking version
of of hell So of course only one L And then over
here we have Loki with his flickering flames
that's one of the last verses there and that
shows Loki sort of looking quite angry and he's
surrounded by fire and At the end of the poem,
he basically storms off and says, well, you're
all going to burn in Ragnarok anyway. And then
he just exits. The one to the side of my left,
I guess, will be the viewer's right. We have
Loki balancing a dart. And that piece. is minds
the blame, and he gets in a battle, a verbal
spat with Frigg, Queen of the Gods, and he actually
admits to being responsible for killing Balder,
which I think is interesting because in some
of the other stories, he tries to keep that quite
secret, obviously. But in this one, he actually
says that he is the one to blame. And then just
below that, we have swallow the Allfather up,
where Fenris is swallowing up Odin. On my other
side, we have a piece that might be kind of difficult
to explain because it has, I think, 13 different
figures in it, and it's from the very beginning
of the poem where the author lists every single
god and servant present in the hall where the
gathering's happening, so it's sort of a... Pelage
of all the gods and goddesses and then behind
me I won't see this one very much because I'll
be covering it with my face in my chair That
one's Loki's venom which is also from the early
part of the poem where where Loki says He's going
to give the gods his words with venom And so
I've made Loki's tongue into a snake for that
one, which I do use a lot of snakes in in reference
to Loki And of course he did, you know, Jormungandr,
the great serpent, is one of his kids and then
the serpent will be placed above his head to
drip venom. But then also just kind of the general
feeling we all have towards snakes being sort
of sneaky characters when they are anthropomorphized
in various myths and other folk tales, that sort
of thing. Well, thank you. That was wonderful.
I am corrected that some of these prints, if
not all of them, are available as part of certain
tiers in your Kickstarter. So, the Gate of Death
I have as a print, and the Venom I have as a
print as a part of the Kickstarter, and then
several of the originals are also available.
And for anyone who has been following along,
if there's an original that someone's interested
in, They just need to reach out to me. I'd be
happy to create a special tier for them if there
is a particular piece they want to ask about.
Some of the Locust Center pieces have also, I've
sold at various events throughout the last year
or two, but I still have a whole lot left. I
mean, I created over 60 drawings for the book.
So yeah, there's a lot. Gosh. And I guess we
should kind of like illuminate the viewers and
listeners that this isn't the first kind of book
of Norse poetic inspired art or translated artworks
which is a translation of your interpretation
of the poetics that inspired it all because you've
also done this for the Voluspa and of course
for the Havamal as well. Yes indeed the Havamal
was the first and it started with my own personal
journey. I wanted a reason to learn the Havamal
And I knew if I did drawings based on the poems
that I that's just the way my brain works is
even in school, I would often draw in school
and teachers would sometimes get mad at me, but
my grades would often improve because I could
listen to the teacher while I was drawing and
then my my memory would be more locked in. So
I was better at recalling information if I could
associate it with a picture. So that was kind
of the idea behind the hobble mall when I when
I started. and it was very successful. That was
about seven or eight years ago that I did the
Habamal, and then a couple years after that I
did the Beluspa, and then it's been a while,
but out of all the other books in the Poetic
Edda, and if memory serves, there's about 14
different poetry collections. The one I get asked
about the most is the Locust Senna. It's kind
of like the third. I think it's because it's
so entertaining and so juicy. I think that's
part of it. There's also several references in
the Lokasenna to events that don't appear in
any of the other Norse lore. And of course, there's
a scholarly debate as to why that is. Some folks
say that Loki is lying and making stuff up. Others
suggest that... there's secret revelation coming
from Loki that you're not going to get in some
of the other poems, and I honestly don't have
a strong opinion either way in that regard. It's
just, I don't know, we're humans, we love gossip,
and that poem is just chocked full of gossip
about all the Norse gods and goddesses. Yes,
I mean for those viewers and listeners who might
not know much about the Poetic Edda, from my
basic understanding of it, it's a collection
of Anonymous. Poetics to do with Old Norse gods
and legends and myths And it just happened to
be found and compiled in the way that is often
published and printed today But we don't know
who wrote them when they were in or how old they
were at the time they were written down So it's
all there's a great mystery a huge unknown element
to and of course some of them are complete some
of them not I know I've recently been going with
the poetic header mainly for the not quite the
saga of the ball songs but kind of like the the
poetics that contribute to that story because
of course there's various versions and parts
of that that are complete little huge jumps in
storyline and timeline from one character to
another and this is why I love exploring this
topic with creatives such as yourself Sam because
it does offer creatives literally kind of like
a way in to interpret it in any way that we like,
and just always make it relevant for today's
society. That's why Vikings and the mythology
have just stuck like glue, even since before
Wagner started doing his thing with operatics.
Kind of like people like to try to find ourselves
in the past, even in the far past in this case.
Yeah, agreed. And I think part of it too is you
know, it doesn't take you long to get to a riddle
when you're reading through the Old Norse writings.
And then you start looking, is there an answer?
And oftentimes the answer is no. And so then
your mind just, at least my mind starts sparking,
going like, well, what might the answer be? And
I also find it interesting how throughout time,
different audiences and different creatives throughout
history have also made very different interpretations
based on those things. Loki in particular is
a figure that really until very recently was
viewed almost like a satanic figure in the story,
like he was just the bad guy. But when you start
reading the lore, it doesn't quite match because
it's definitely not a one -to -one for Christianity
and the Abrahamic faiths with like an adversarial
figure because sometimes he's Thor's best friend
and they're just like palling around through
Jotunheim and going on adventures together and
sometimes he and Odin are very good friends and
then it's just it's not quite the same as the
the ultimate adversary until you get very late
into the myth cycle when I wouldn't say Loki
has a heel turn but he finally permits the ultimate
sin of being responsible for another God's death
rather than just a bit of mischief. That's a
very eloquent way of explaining it and certainly
in a 20th century context onwards. Of course,
Marvel Comics set him up very much as the typical
villain, kind of like horned helmet, demonic,
cackling, kind of like saying, oh, I've got a
dastardly, deedly pan and I will have my revenge
and all that nonsense. And then somehow or another,
he's come round and become quite the kind of
like the underdog. I want to say the anti -hero.
Yes, the anti -hero. That's the phrase I've heard
commonly associated with him. and well and i
i don't think it hurts that is it was it tom
hiddleston hiddlestaff whatever the actor who
portrays loki uh i i understand for many women
is very easy on the eyes and so i'm sure that
it's a factor as well uh there there's a lot
like i sometimes at conventions uh i i have another
piece where i call loki's smile where loki's
mouth has been sewed shut And people will say,
well, this doesn't look like Tom Hiddleston.
And I'm like, what? Because it's not. Oh, gosh.
Yeah. But to your average person, they hear Loki.
They think Thor and Marvel. And that's it. But
anyway, yeah. A lot of people don't like that
piece. They don't like seeing Loki hurt. Which
I which I think is interesting Because I mean
obviously in in the lore he's hurt quite a bit
and throughout yeah, Loka Sena when I depict
Loki I typically depict him with the scars on
on his lips and that's that's because if you
I try to think of these things somewhat chronologically
and so that story helped to create Mjolnir Thor's
hammer So if Thor has Mjolnir, then in my opinion
Loki already has the scars from that particular
incident. That's a very good point because he
does certainly turn up a lot in a lot of the
old stories and adventures. Of course there are
many that don't involve Loki, they were just
about Thor, like I can remember reading the one
where Thor is walking by a riverside. And a mysterious
figure turns up on the other side there and just
starts throwing abuse at Thor, as you do. And
it just turns out to be Odin. The reader knows
it's Odin, but Thor doesn't realize it's Odin.
That's a very weird father -son relationship
going on there. But of course, this is a thing
kind of like with creative license Marvel decided
to make Thor actually modestly intelligent, slightly
charismatic, and just kind of like the kind of
like archetypal hero figure, whereas in the in
the original poetics, he's very much sometimes
an idiot, always quick to anger, and gets into
as much trouble as Loki does, but without realizing
it half the time. Yes, and also typically known
for drinking and eating such a massive amount
that when you look at older illustrations of
Thor from, I'm thinking of, I think it was Arthur
Rackham who did the illustration. Thor has often
got a bit of a belly on him in some of those
older interpretations as well, and even some
modern interpretations once you get outside of
Marvel. Thor is very much like, I don't know,
in America I'd imagine him as like, you know,
the beer guzzling, football loving, big guy that
everyone really likes but also doesn't want to
piss off. Yes, yes. I mean, that reminds me kind
of like when the God of War series started going
down there north, which I've always been confused
about, but I don't have a PlayStation, so I've
just observed from afar, basically. I watched
my brother play a little bit of it, and he was
mainly killing, I say killing, defeating all
the valkyries, which was another interesting
interpretation. But I know when that was just
about to come out and they revealed what Berthold
looked like, he was a very rotund, a very round,
big deer -bellied, as you say. And there was
a huge divide among the internet, kind of like,
that can't be so. Yes, it is there. It can't
be. But it is. But it can't be. But it is. Indeed.
So it's certainly kind of like in terms of Loki's
depictions. I remember during my years as a college
librarian, one of my students who was very popular
and often a good reader, she also had a bit of
an interest in North mythology and she did an
extended project which is similar to doing a
DCSE but on a subject of your own choice about
the representation of Loki in the Icelandic sagas
compared to himself in Marvel because of course
there is some old artwork but it's often 12th
century 13th century often to do with the Icelandic
sagas more than the north poetics and And it
does make him out to be kind of like a sneaky
cunning almost weasel like figure I'm sure I
can remember him having a very distinct hat which
is oh he's actually wearing a hat which is interesting
not horns Just a hat because he's depicted as
a common man type figure Yeah, absolutely, and
I I definitely lean into some of that. I I mean
I if If Thor is going to be big and burly, then
Loki needs to be thin and live, in my opinion,
kind of a, you know, a wiry figure. There's also
the connection of Loki with fire. And so I do
that by having Loki's hair almost being like
a little wisp of flame coming off the top of
his head. And I often show Loki as red haired.
But I don't know that it ever other than I mean
Thor obviously is red bearded That stated several
times. I'm not aware if it actually discusses
Loki's coloring and of course even the connection
to fire is one of those things that's Largely
comes from when he gets in the battle with Logie
and Logie means fire in Old Norse and so I It's
hard to know if there was a connection truly
between Loki and fire or if it's just that the
name sounded similar. And so much like we enjoy
puns now, perhaps there was a connection there
where it was just something that was amusing.
And so it was included in a story because of
the play on words. And I mean, obviously, the
Vikings quite enjoyed, you know, wordplay and
wordsmith. I mean, even the locus center itself.
Means the flitting of Loki and that's FL Y T
ing which I'm sure you're aware of but just for
everyone listening is That's the the verbal battle
where in the hall after dinner and and probably
with several rounds of drinks Men in the hall
would have these Verbal poetry battles and I
actually the the modern example. I like to think
of is the epic rap battle. Yes It's two guys
sort of slamming poetry at one another in a clever
way where they're trying to twist words but also
make the other person look like a fool or look
poorly and that tradition goes back. There's
references a thousand years ago or more. to that
sort of thing. And so I don't know, I think that's
really neat. And then that's, of course, the
style of the Lokasenna is it's once you get into
the poem, it breaks down to Loki says something
nasty. One of the gods or goddesses says something
about Loki that's nasty. And then they just keep
going back and forth. And each little section
breaks down into about four verses, typically,
where, you know, Loki Starts it off then somebody
responds. So let's say if it if Odin responds
well Odin only gets two verses and Loki has two
verses insulting Odin and then someone new steps
in to defend Odin or whoever is speaking and
then they get two verses and it typically goes
back and forth like that until you get to the
section on Thor and Thor it's four to six verses
depending on how you You count it, but Thor basically
just repeats himself where some of the other
gods and goddesses are quite clever. Thor's verses
always start with, Unmanly one cease, or the
mighty hammer Mjolnir shall close thy mouth.
And then the second two lines are always different,
but those first two lines and then... He just,
I mean, he threatens to break Loki's bones. He
threatens to throw him so far in the east that
no one will find him. I mean, it's basically
just different versions of bodily harm that Thor
is going to enact on Loki for disrupting the
event and saying so many mean things. But I don't
know, it is interesting how in some of the verses
you can really feel the personality of the god
or goddess come through. in the way they speak
and interact throughout the poems, even though
the poems themselves were probably all written
by one person, at least in the Locust Center,
not all of the Poetic Etta, but just in one section.
Even then, you can see, I don't know, just the
different personalities, and they still really
come through even in modern translations. Yeah,
I mean it is fascinating because of course I've
read various not quite translations of the original
source but kind of like modern retellings such
of course of Kevin Crossley Holland's retelling
of the Penguin Book of Norse myths and of course
reading the one which is my favourite which is
the Lay of Thrym where Loki and Thor go in Vader.
Is it a giant or is it a troll? Though I think
it's a giant, it's a giant's wedding isn't it?
I'm sure it's a giant. I keep wanting to say
troll, but something else entirely. Well, I mean,
those terms troll, metten, giant, yoten, they
all get used interchangeably a lot of times too.
But yeah, because of course in The Lay of Thrim,
it's Thor's hammers who's stolen, and it always
makes me laugh when I first read it, because
Thor basically wakes up thinking, right, Loki
must have it. Where was Loki? Loki, where's my
hammer? Loki's like, I don't have it. Stop hurting
me, please. But I might be able to help you otherwise.
And then, of course, they go ask Freyja for a
cloak. And she just absolutely gets enraged by
the idea of lending her cloak to anyone. And
then they actually say, well, actually, it's
because Thor's lost his hammer. And she's like,
oh, OK, that's serious. Yeah, I like that my
favorite part of that story is the it almost
reads like Little Red Riding Hood when they get
when they get to the wedding and you know Thor's
drinking and the Giants like Freya sure is drinking
a lot And then you know Loki's line is basically
like oh, yes She's so thirsty for your love and
it kind of you know keeps going along along that
way of Thor just being Thor and then Loki making
excuses. I'm actually working on a piece directly
about all that that I call, I think I'm going
to call it Thor's Wedding. I've always wanted
to do a piece of Thor in a wedding dress. Oh
yes, it's got to be done, it's got to be done.
It's at the point where there's gonna be a bunch
of dead giant stacked up behind him kind of thing
I'm working on but anyway, yeah. Oh Well, I will
look forward to seeing that when it's done. Yeah
I haven't posted to me places. I have posted
the initial sketches for that one on my patreon
I tend to show a lot of work in progress and
stuff that I like to be a little more finished
with stuff when I release it on the wider social
media, but My patrons over there get to see all
the the early working and behind -the -scenes
stuff and also for the Locust Center For for
almost I don't know six months now all the drawings
for the Locust Center have been on my patreon
as well So it's been interesting to interact
him The other thing that's fun is like some drawings
did very well with with my patrons But then other
ones are more popular when I release it on YouTube
or social media so I mean, I would say everybody
has different tastes. I've been doing professional
art now for 15 years, and I feel like I've gotten
worse at figuring out what people are going to
like and which ones they're not. I don't worry
about it. I just make the stuff I think is cool
and then release it to the world. But it's just
always interesting to me which ones people kind
of latch onto and which ones they don't. I think
that's always the best way to start with any
type of artwork. I think it's something I learned
back when I was in my early 20s when I did my
English studies with a creative writing degree
and we were always talking of like write first
for yourself and then when it comes to rewriting
then try rewrite for the reader or the publisher
or the agent depending on where you're trying
to send it next. But the most fun is always had
when you're just writing it for yourself. I think
and this is partly why I do this whole podcast
because I don't mind if no one not doesn't listen
to it. I still get to have fun talking to great
people like you. So that's a great attitude to
have. Well, I know it's not going to make me
rich and I'm not going to become an influencer
overnight. I'm not going to hit. so many subscribers
that I can actually start earning on YouTube
or Spotify or those places so if anyone else
relates or connects then it's a bonus and I will
say this dear viewers and listeners if you do
happen to be there if you do exist please don't
go check out Sam Fiegel on Patreon because I
will definitely be doing that afterwards because
I want to get a sneak peek at that Thor picture
if nothing else if nothing else But going back
slightly to the Lay of Thrim, for those who might
be curious, they're like Thor in a wedding dress.
Like, what is? What is going on? What are these
people making up? No, we're not. It is a genuine
story. And after kind of Loki has taken... Freya's
magic falcon cloak and gone flying off as a falcon
he finds this giant just sat on top of a hill
I believe making a dog collar or sharpening with
a whetstone I can't remember which one it was
just doing something rather random and mundane
and Loki asks him have you seen Thor's hammer
anywhere because I know what you giants are like
and he goes oh I have it but it's so deep underground
that even Odin won't be able to get it And so
Loki asks him, well, what can I give you in return
for those hammer? And he says, I would like Freya.
I want Freya for my bride, please. And so Loki
has to go back and give that news. A common note
in Norse mythology, everybody always wants to
marry Freya. Mm -hmm. But she doesn't want to
marry anyone. She's quite happy with her cats.
And just as enraged as she was when she had to
give her falcon cloak up, she is triply enraged
when she says, oh, you've got to marry this giant,
because no one can think of a way out. And I
do believe, actually, this is the one tale that
I'm familiar with, where Loki doesn't actually
come up with a solution. It's another god, Himdal,
of all the gods. Because, or at least in the
versions that I've read, kind of like, oh, I've
got an idea. But you're not going to like it,
Thor. And so it's like, go on then, because it's
got to be better than everyone else's ideas,
which is just sending Freyr off. And he goes,
I think we should send you instead of Freyr.
But have the lady goddesses dress you up with
the bridal crown and the veil and the lady dress
and the keys. And Thor goes, yeah, you're right.
I don't like that idea. But Loki's like, yes,
that's a brilliant idea. And I could be your
handmaid. Ta -da. I'm already a lady. Because
he can just do that without any qualms or crims
from anyone at all. Indeed. the the original
gender fluid yes and it does make me wonder actually
why doesn't Loki just shape -shift into looking
like Freyja but I guess he must always therefore
look like a female version of himself and not
a female version of someone else but equally
just having Thor in a wedding dress is just comedic
and they do have to give him quite a long veil
in order to hide his beard and these angry eyes
and and that relates to of course when they get
to the wedding Loki says Thor, don't speak, don't
say anything, don't do anything, let me do all
the talking. And so Thor gets there. And I always
find this bit comical. It might be a traditional
aspect of that time, but kind of like the ladies
at the wedding all have little pastries to eat.
Whereas the blokes, they have salmon, they have
ox, and they have barrels of ale. And of course,
Thor eats a lot of both. He eats all the pastries,
so much the charbing of all the ladies there,
including the giant sister. And then he eats
like six salmon, three oxen and drinks like five
barrels of ale. And this is then relating to
what you're saying earlier about how the giant
groomed to be. He says, well, why is Freya drinking
so much? Because it's not prayer. about that
story that I think is really interesting. I can't
remember who I was reading, but apparently part
of the story that, as modern audiences, we're
not aware of, but that it's believed to be a
Viking wedding custom was to place a Thor's hammer
in the bride's lap, which is meant to be a blessing
of fertility. So that's the piece. of why the
plan's going to work is because in a proper wedding,
if Thor's the bride, then there's a point where
they have to put Thor's hammer in the bride's
lap. And since the giant has the real Thor's
hammer, why not use the real Thor's hammer rather
than a necklace or some sort of object that represented
the Thor's hammer? So I just always thought that
that was an interesting little scholarly note.
this idea of the hammer being a symbol of male
virility and placing that in a lady's lap and
the obvious procreation connotations that come
from such imagery. Because of course they do
present it with the handle erect, not the other
way around because then it wouldn't stand up.
Indeed. It does mirror the imagery of the male
body part quite well. and so you can kind of
see that kind of see that um and I guess this
is kind of like the strange thing which certainly
I've become more aware of through my own research
on the Valkyries which I now have spoken to you
about before. Yeah. And if like even in the Norse
poetics there's so much we find out about the
Norse gods and indeed little habits and rituals
like that which might have come from the actual
practices of the time but we don't know much
about the female goddesses and that side of things
so kind of like there is no evidence of Freya
being called upon in a marriage even though she's
also the goddess of fertility. as much as all
three should be. Yeah, or Frigg, as I mean, it
is referenced that she, I mean, I think it's
in the prose, Etta. It says that she looked after
the contracts of marriage or one of her handmaidens
did. I'm blanking on on which. But other than
that one little sentence, that's I mean, all
of of the feminine side of marriage is basically
summed up in that. And that one thing and then
of course the other glaring thing to many people
is obviously Odin is the all father Is there
a mother to his his father that's supposed to
uh balance that balance that out, but um I don't
know. Maybe there's many mothers, uh as opposed
to just the one father. I don't know but Well,
certainly i've been following along all your
real faith on instagram of you wonderfully narrating
the passages that inspire all the many artworks
you've done for the Loki Center. And of course,
it always fascinates me when you read about one
that mentions about a goddess, whether it's one
that's known or more importantly, one that isn't
known about, like we only get the name in that
one reference in the Loki Center and that's it.
I don't know anything else. Geffen, who is, I
think her name appears as one of the handmaidens.
in the Prose Edda, but outside of that, we have
very little. And in the Locus Senna, it seems
to imply, I believe it references her sight and
her skill with prophecy, which also brings to
mind the Veluspa and the role of the vulva or
the seer that, you know, obviously was clearly,
I mean, the prophecy and females even to like
the Norns, right, as blessings and almost like
these fairy -like creatures that look after the
strand of your life. And I always think of Sleeping
Beauty when the three good fairies give their
blessing and then the one evil fairy Maleficent
gives her blessing. But I mean, if you think
about that, that's from Grimm's fairy tales.
That's a Germanic story. So maybe what is a fairy
very late in the lore, if we rewind back, goes
back to this custom of the Norns being in charge
of fate. Regardless of my own conjecture there,
what we can say certainly is that females seem
to be the ones in charge of future sight and
of prophecy. And so, if that's true, then Geffen,
it would imply, had a very important role in
the Pantheon or within Asgard. but all we get
is Loki says something nasty and Odin's like
well don't you know don't don't counteract Geffen's
sight you don't want to bet against Geffen because
you know she sees the future basically so but
yeah and then the other more common tactic Loki
uses throughout the Locust Center specifically
with all of the goddesses is he basically just
calls them all derogatory words that involve
women who procreate or use their body too often
in a sexual manner. And there's quite a range
of insults there, but they all basically boil
down to some version of their own promiscuity.
Whereas the male insults usually come down to
being unmanly and then a debate, which I suppose
that does highlight something that may have been
very important to Old Norse culture. Women were
considered virtuous for their own sexual fidelity,
and men were considered virtuous for how manly
they were perceived by the other men. And it's
not too hard to believe considering how many
other cultures also hold similar ideals, though
it does challenge somewhat the notions that a
lot of modern people have about like female Viking
warriors and soldiers. And there's obviously
a whole scholarly debate about all of that stuff
that I don't know that we need to get into. It's
just you know, I don't know. This is where I
really get excited about the poems is when you
start thinking about the pieces and you realize
that the root of it, it's just people and that
people have always been kind of the same and
that these people a thousand years ago or longer
were not all that different from us. The difference
was just in terms of the technology that they
had access to while they were alive. Yeah, very
much, very much so. That echoes quite strongly
with a foreword written by the late Harry Jones
of the Monty Python fame, because in our last
episode, the viewers and listeners, because he's
coming out after episode 20, which is where I
discover and explore the many versions of Eric
the Viking, because he was more than just a film.
I learned that he was a children's book and it
was a wonderful children's book. and I had the
30th anniversary version and Toby Jones wrote
that because I didn't realize he was a medievalist,
which is quite cool, having a comedian who's
a medievalist. But he tried to get into the Icelandic,
no, he tried to get into the Norse sagas but
he found the term very dry because it's all like
so -and -so was the son of so -and -so who lived
at such -and -such a place who was also the father
of a sinister and it goes on about lineage and
they did make a whole spook of that in the old
saga. which is a spoof of Nyal's saga, if I could
ever get the pronunciation right. But he says
at the end of his foreword, because of course
this book came out a couple of years before he
died from dementia, I believe, or Alzheimer's,
one of the two. He says kind of like it. it's
heartwarming to find that these stories are essentially
just people, no matter how far apart we are.
And people are people no matter what era they're
alive in. And it goes, good grief, isn't that
good? I'm like, yes, it is kind of thing. Because
it means that humanity, no matter how evolved
we are in technology, in knowledge, in ability
to do things, in transport and whatnot, you can
have us all around the world be connected, yet
we're still all human at the core of it all.
Absolutely, and I think there's also a fallacy
of modern audiences to imagine that we're quite
a bit more sophisticated than our ancestors were,
and it really doesn't take much research at all
to have that notion proved false almost immediately.
people were still worried about their families
and money and making ends meet and fame and will
I be remembered and are my children sick or is
my spouse well and health and just all the same
things that normal adult people are concerned
with in 2025. I mean, certainly in terms of the
Loki Center being the kind of like the epic round
of insults that it is, I guess you could call
it kind of like the Old Norse version of EastEnders,
where there's a big spat going on between like
the antagonists and the protagonists of the cast
and they're having one of them big shouting matches
before they start throwing punches. Because it
is kind of like verbal punch in a way. Yeah,
oh absolutely. And I'm certainly delighted when
I started playing, although I haven't got very
far in it because life and parenting robs me
of play time. But the Assassin's Creed Valhalla,
which of course is set in 10th century England,
and they quite often will have flighting contests
and you come across them in various settlements.
Some of them are easy to do, some of them are
quite hard because they give you a kind of a
timer. It's kind of like he says the first line,
then you've got three options and you've got
to pick the one that matches the right beat or
that matches the right rhyme. It's fun. It's
fun. I didn't realize that was in that game.
That's interesting. Yeah, it's got a few nice
things. Of course, there is some artistic license
taken. The fact that there's an accurate historical
reference in a modern video game. I mean, that's
cool. They clearly did some research before they
created that game. And I mean, I don't know,
I think many cultures have their version of the
the cut down fight. You know, I mean, I think
of in well, not just in America, but England
is famous for this, too. But like the comedy
roast or roast battles where two comedians will
will go back and forth, you know, lobbing insults
at at one another. And then. It's even a thing
that's judged and there's you know shows where
people win prizes for being the best at insults
And you know all you know all of that kind of
stuff which also leads me into when I imagine
the Locus Senna I Like to imagine it having been
performed as a play. Oh Yes, so if the the structure
of the Locus Senna, there's a prologue Which
is a bit of prose before the poems start And
then there's 66 verses that include a wide cast
of characters. And then it ends with an epilogue
that sort of wraps the whole thing up. But it's
very easy. You'd only need a cast of around 14
to 16 folks. And obviously the the most important
character would have been Loki himself in this
particular play But it's easy to imagine it being
performed in a great hall after a meal in front
of a fire and you know just having the different
people recite the the poems and I imagine you
know with certain ones just like with a rap battle
or the roast battle I imagine after someone's
done speaking you hear the ooh or you know, like
people would laugh because there's there's parts
that are funny and There's puns in there too
of like wordplay and some of that's lost a translation
But there's there's still an element of it. But
anyway, yeah, that's how I like to think of it
is That it it would have been something that
wasn't just read but and maybe not even just
recited but recited by multiple people as an
ensemble. Yes, I mean that's quite true because
of course a lot of Norse culture was oral. It
was kind of like any writings of Norse stuff
was done centuries after often by Christian people
because it was always the Christian people, especially
men, that were in positions of authority or power
or wealth that learned how to write. We have
room stone carvings, but that's about as literate
as you'd get in the Viking Age, really. And if
the law speaker in Iceland can remember all their
hundred -odd -plus laws, I'm sure people at the
time would have easily been able to remember
this. And it could easily have been told by the
fireside in families, as well as in great halls.
Because, of course, it was all stories about
the people that they believed in or looked to,
or looked to as possibly bad examples, for example,
kind of like, don't go to bed being like Loki,
or you won't get a Yule log this Christmas. Excuse
the Christmas word there, it slipped in, but
yes, that's my kind of view of it. Yeah, well,
and the other interesting, I think, I think about
the the Locasenna is, you know, it has some of
the most references to Loki and his stuff or
his lore, but there's no place names throughout
Scandinavia of Loki. Whereas the other gods and
goddesses, I mean, and the ones you'd imagine,
you know, Odin has a lot, Thor has a lot, but
even Baldr has a couple of place names. Ullr
actually has a lot of place names. which suggests
maybe Ullr was more important in an earlier time
than we're aware of, but at least as far as I'm
aware with current research, there's not any
place names for Loki. And so one of the theories
about that is that there may not have been worship
of Loki in the same way that we think of the
pagan worship of... I mean, certainly Odin, but
obviously Freyr, there's, you know, statues and
references there, Thor, and several of the goddesses
as well, especially, you know, Frigg and Freya.
But, and this is a thing where, when you start
talking about modern people that are really into
Loki can get very upset, and it's not my intention
to upset anyone or commentate on modern paganism,
because modern paganism, is different. But one
of the theories is that Loki existed primarily
as a foil from a literature perspective. Because
if you remove Loki from the literature of Norse
mythology, the stories get boring pretty quickly.
Because you need that guy who's messing stuff
up. to create the situation that then needs to
get fixed. And so, Loki ends up propelling most
of the stories. So, one of the great questions
is, when you have a literary figure like Loki
that's referenced so many times throughout the
writing, doesn't match with the religious figure
of the other gods and goddesses, and how does
that combine? There isn't an answer, is the truth
of it. Is that something for our, you know, the
listeners and the viewers can come to their own
conclusions. I just think that's, I don't know,
I think that's really neat. I also think it's
partly why we find Loki so fascinating. It's
because there's, you know, almost as much written
about Loki as Thor or Odin. And yet there's this
other question mark About you know who and and
and why? Now it's less surprising to me why modern
audiences find him so fascinating because modern
life Morality is very is less black and white
in that sense, but and part of that's because
I mean, at the root of the Norse stories is tribalism.
You know, it's the tribe of Asgard, even versus
the Vanir in the beginning, but also versus the
Jotuns and, you know, the outsiders. And so,
you know, we, I mean, heck, we're talking across
the pond, as folks say, now. But, you know, like,
I don't think of, like, The american tribe really
like I if I had to imagine my tribe, it might
be my family But it certainly isn't all of the
massive place that is uh america, right? um,
so I I think that's why because We are so much
more complex In terms of our interpersonal relationships
and maybe complex isn't even the right word.
It could just be confused You know, there's there's
less signs of which team you play for in all
these things. And so in that role, Loki, who
is forever an outsider, but also blood brother
to Odin and all of the, oh, that's another thing
about the Locust Center. The Locust Center is
the only book that has a reference to Odin and
Loki being blood brothers to one another. And
that's something that the rest of the lore obviously
could ask the question. Why the heck do they
tolerate Loki in all of his nonsense? But if
the lokasuna is correct, perhaps that answers
that question. Or again, maybe it was just one
author wanting to answer that question because
there wasn't an answer elsewhere. It's so easy
for all of us just to devolve into a big question
mark when you dig down deeper and deeper. Yeah,
and I think you've made a lot of really good
valid points there. I know certainly from discussions
that I've had with Joanne Harris, author of Rune
Marks and Rune Light, and of course Chocolat,
but she's also really big in ternal mythology.
I know she did study Old Norse for a couple of
years, way, way, way back, well before Covid,
so she might be more prolific at reading it than
I am. But she's always described Loki as this
kind of like the personification of otherness,
the stranger, the outsider. Certainly kind of,
as you say, with the Isaiah versus the Vanir
war, they kind of like amalgamated into one,
so they don't really see each other as different
anymore, because one won, one lost. Whereas Loki
is almost like that. that travelling tradesman
that you keep meeting that always seems to have
something that you need or something that you
want or causes a problem that you then have to
buy something from him. He's always got that
almost like that as you say kind of like he's
not just adding to the narrative but he's also
of course, creating problems and then being the
one that's able to fix them. So it's almost like
a con artist in a way, kind of like he comes
his way into their lives and kind of like causes
a case, like, oh, I can sort that out for you.
And you just touched on something there that
applies to most creative people as well, where
especially when we are young, we often end up
as an outsider, you know, not being popular in
high school or You know growing up and so I know
I often felt like I was You know kind of accepted
but still on the outside and and when you are
an outsider you observe culture and That's what
allows you to create art later on that That's
a commentary on those things. And so I think
that could also be another Connective thread
to Loki because I think even earlier I couldn't
describe what my tribe was. So perhaps a lot
of people feel like wayward children and Loki
is the ultimate lost son who is never accepted
by any of the tribes. So it's not hard to imagine
why Some people would feel very strongly connected
to that in the same way that I don't know when
I when I interact with Modern pagans I can within
a you know five ten minutes of conversation I
can use with men anyways I can usually guess
whether they're more into Thor or more into Odin
and you know it usually leans one way or another
and it's partly because They sort of personify
one of those two Figures in themselves and therefore
feel that connection So if more of us are outsiders,
then it would make sense that more of us are
connected to Loki than ever before Mm -hmm. Yes,
that's a really good point. There's many stages
in our life growing up where we have to kind
of find their solo independence like for me it
was always I started primary school on my own
being the first born then had that second school
on my own, started college on my own, started
university on my own so I'm always having to
reform my tribe and now I'm just doing it globally
by interviewing lots of people on a podcast but
there we go. But yeah, certainly thinking back
to Joanne Harris and Herbie on it, in her fantasy
books, Rude Marks and Rune Lights, Loki is very
much a figure of chaos because there is this
overwhelming force of order which is actually
seen and depicted in a very negative way. Spoiler,
it's run by Mimir, the head. Mimir's head is
conniving against the... climbing against Odin
by making kind of like a church -like establishment,
take over the folk that used to believe in these
old tales and Odin, Thor and Loki and their kind
of like more human guises have to try and combat
these forces, runes and magic. It's just a wonderful
duology. I always hope she'd do a third one,
because it never quite panned out. Although she
did then write her own Locke Center in a way,
which is called... Oh, where is it? It's on my
shelf. That's it. the Gospel of Loki and then
she wrote the Testament of Loki as a sequel to
it. I've heard of those books for sure. They're
a really good read. I think it's certainly interesting
because the way it's all written is in first
person so it's Loki speaking from the word go
and of course Loki speaking but it's really John
Harris speaking and they kind of discuss how
history can be interpreted as his story. It's
kind of like you need her story or my story,
which is a mystery. Which I thought, oh, that's
a really clever play on words and really reflects
about Loki's actual figure. That is a mystery.
No one really knows which side he's on. No one
really knows his motives, his goals. And I think
that's really been explored a lot in certain
modern media, such as kind of like the Loki series,
which I've only recently binged a couple of weeks
ago and absolutely loved. And I hope he comes
back somewhere in the Marvel Universe because
I think that'd be brilliant. But of course, in,
what was I going to say? There was another animation
series that came out last spring called Twilight
of the Gods. Twilight of the Guards on Netflix,
yeah. Yes. in that series I was very impressed
with that depiction because that presented to
him with a whole different motive, a whole different
side and there's a whole episode when I think
they are in Ulla's head because Ulla's head is
a magical mind field basically and they keep
seeing each other's past and regrets and Loki's
is all about his kids and he's like gosh he's
never actually been focused on as a father character
and that he's not wanting to kill Odin out of
spite he's wanting to kill Odin because he knows
Odin will do this knew all these things to his
kids. And I thought that was really, really fascinating.
And I was quite impressed with that take. I don't
know if it'll ever come back for a second series.
They kind of left it on a really odd ending.
But again, there's an episode of that, me reviewing
it with some other guests. So if you want to
go listen to viewers and listeners, please do.
I'll go watch it first on Netflix, and then go
watch that episode. Just so you don't spoil it
for you. But yes, I really enjoyed that series.
It has a lot. to say especially of course about
Thor, who is depicted as an antagonist more than
a hero character. But yes, Loki. There is one
thing I wanted to bring up because I thought
this will be really, this will wow everyone who's
watching and listening. It'll be their fact drop
next time at the dinner table with their mates
or in the pub. There's a wonderful bit in the
Loki Center where I can't remember which god
or goddess referred to. I think it might have
been Odin or Himdal. one of the male ones that
they tell about Loki being a milkmaid, attending
a cow for so many years. Please elaborate on
that for us. Yeah, so that drawing was super
fun to make. But yeah, it's again, in the way
the male gods usually go in the Locust Center,
Odin is saying that Loki is unmanly. And his
proof of that is the seven years he spent being
a milkmaid, I think for one of the giants. And
that's it. He references it in a way that implies
there's a much bigger story. And it's stated
so matter of factly that the audience surely
was aware of this other story that it would be
so commonplace. that there was no need to explain
it. But as modern people, that story of Loki
the milkmaid is completely lost aside from this
one poem. And then back and forth, Loki then
challenges Odin's manliness by pointing out that
Odin wore women's clothing, which is one of the
common tales about like Odin didn't just learn
magic, he actually learned women's magic as well
as the magic that was for men. And in order to
do that, he did wear the ritual garb of a lady
seer or a vulva or a witch, depending on your
nomenclature there. But yeah, but that's it.
I wish there was more I could go into. But yeah,
it is such a funny little line of Loki the milkmaid
and gosh talk about a story I would love to hear
more of because I mean it makes you wonder too
like how could Loki be trapped for so long because
you know, he's a shape shifter and he's always
he's got let me have like shoes that let him
fly or something too or He you know, he has some
sort of magic slippers if I remember correctly
and uh, he could you know, uh hide or turn invisible
or even I mean in in the mjolnir story He turns
into a fly or a gnat and he you know bites the
the dwarves that are making the hammer So if
he could do all that shape shifting and get so
small How is it that he ended up in this position?
Or, I mean, I don't know, maybe he lost a bet
and so he had to become a milkmaid because he
lost a bet. I mean, he's certainly a gambling
man throughout the legends. But yeah, we will
sadly never know any more than that one little
back and forth with Odin where he says, yeah,
you're unmanly because you're a milkmaid. Well
it certainly makes me think because like we've
discussed the lay of thrim where he very clearly
changes his gender and his shape and form and
so with this milkmaid, because he doesn't take
kind of like milk servant which could be more
ambiguous, he says milk maid which is definitely
the feminine word so it's kind of like are those
two really the only references of Loki changing
gender that you've come across because they're
the only two that I can think of off the top
of my head. Because I don't think in any of his
other adventures he changed gender. Yeah, one
other time, and you're going to know it the minute
I say it, he turns into a female horse. Oh gosh,
yes. Sorry. That's why I used the original gender
fluid term because Loki's always turning into
a lady to solve problems when it suits him. So
yeah, he turns into the lady horse to get the
other horse slurred away and then ends up giving
birth to Odin's horse Slepnir. So yeah. I was
thinking one homo sapien term is one of the animal
terms but yes you're quite right it's a female
horse but a male. Yeah yeah a female horse in
heat. Yes yes I don't know why you just didn't
become a stallion and just fight and bite the
other stallion like stallions actually do but
there we go. hindsight is a wonderful thing and
you're not the person involved useful for anything
um but yeah it's it's fascinating kind of like
how much there may have been known or told about
all these girls and of course Loki in particular
Because the other thing I find interesting about
Loki, and again it's something I only learnt
when I was speaking to Joanne Harris about North
Swiss in general in fantasy fiction, and how
both she and Caroline Larrington, an Amaretta's
professor at Oxford, both pointed out that Loki's
surname isn't a son name, it's a daughter's name,
so he's got the mother's name then son, more
than kind of his father's name then son, so he's
not Loki. I can't remember his actual father's
name. But it's Loki Lofi's son, so it's Lofi's
son, not a male name. Yeah, and Lofi is a female.
Yep, that's right, Lofi is his mother's. Yeah,
yeah. Well, and then, I mean, there's a lot of
cross -dressing and references to it, not just
in the locus sena, but throughout Norse mythology,
but also through the sagas. And of course, the
Icelandic law, one of the reasons a woman could
divorce a man was if he was wearing women's clothing.
And so, yeah, I mean, obviously, it was certainly
a part of their culture in some way. And it could
just be as simple as... We talked about Monty
Python earlier, but how many hilarious sketches
are there where they put on women's clothing
and act like old British ladies? It's really
funny to see a guy dressed up as a gal and acting
ridiculous. Maybe it's just as simple as that.
Again, if you imagine it as a play. If you imagine
that the female characters were played by men
We don't know if the women were a part of it
or able to recite poetry that's but we know in
other cultures I mean it certainly in a Chinese
culture or I think Japanese culture a lot of
the Asian cultures had the tradition of certain
female characters being portrayed by men who
were wearing the various makeup and all of that
stuff. Who knows? What we do know is that there's
a lot of references to men in women's clothing.
Yes, I remember reading about Icelandic law and
absolutely loving it. But of course, who makes
the most clothing? It's the women. So they could
do it on the QT and then get their husband to
be divorced e out into the outings public like
hey guy Where you do shirt to work? He's wearing
a feminine collar We talked about this last time,
but I I know that one of the other laws is The
the if the man didn't measure up in the downstairs
department Yeah, that was another thing but she
she had to prove it in whatever their version
of a court of law was. And so I don't even know
how that worked. But yes, if the member was below
a certain measurement, she was allowed to divorce
him. Which I suppose also gets into the various
thoughts on unmanliness. No, that's a really
interesting point. It certainly makes me think
to a new computer game that's coming out in February
next year called Norse Oath of Blood. I've got
a particular interest because the entire narrative
is written by one of my top favourite Viking
authors called Giles Christian and he does a
mean epic Viking historical fiction. He's written
six, a trilogy and then a sequel trilogy and
they're awesome. And I've been playing the demo
recently and in the demo you meet two NPC characters,
a farmer and his wife known as the seamstress.
And the witty insults that they exchange are
very much like a flighting without it being an
actual declared flighting hatch. And she's like,
oh, let's welcome these brave warriors. Look,
they've got tall spears that we can use to protect
ourselves. Ha ha, hee hee, wink wink. And she's
like, what's wrong with my spear? It just needs
a bit of tender care and repair. And she's like,
oh, yes, but it's old, darling. Everyone knows
what they're talking about. It's so obvious.
But yeah, it's so badly hidden. And it's just,
I just want to play the whole game just for those
two. It just sounds like a comedy from start
to finish. So yes, but that's why I love Giles
Christian writing because he really brings the
humanity completely out to the front. He doesn't
hide it behind like, yes, he's the wife, he does
this, he's the farmer, he does that. Relationships
don't always get along and I absolutely love
these two because it's an old couple. I think
that also touches on another thing of why stories
like the Locust Center are so appealing is it
doesn't read like it takes itself overly serious.
You know, it reads as this sort of verbal wordplay.
And so it, I don't know, to me, it feels fun
to read, even though it's, you know, archaic
literature, you know, it's quite, it's very different
than say like reading Beowulf, which is, you
know, like this epic poem that's, that's, you
know, tonally just very intense. The Locus Senna
is not that. The other thing I wonder reading
the Locus Senna is Loki has, well according to
Loki in the Locus Senna, he's slept with almost
all of the goddesses. And so, but the big ones
there that always made me wonder is Sif, Thor's
wife. and then Scotty or Scotty depending on
and the reason those are interesting to me is
because the story where with the hammer begins
with Sif having her head shaved or you know losing
her golden hair and it was a punishment in their
culture that if a woman was found to be adulterous
that she would get her head shaved. And so it
was an embarrassing thing to have to endure not
having hair. And in the story, you know, Thor
is worried about this. So he's like, you got
to get her new hair. So she eventually gets the
gold hair and yada, yada, yada. But the story
doesn't specifically say this, but there is an
implication there that, you know, if Loki is
the one to remove her hair, that could be much
like the Spears we were talking about earlier,
could actually be a reference to something else
entirely that we as modern audiences are less
aware of, that we are less aware of, but that
the time it would have been told, everyone listening
would have sort of nodded along with a smirk
going, oh, I know what that means. And so the
Locus Sena sort of implies or doesn't imply it
outright says that That's what happened there.
So that that makes me wonder and then the relationship
with scotty is even more interesting because
she's the one who places the snake above Loki's
head and But going back Loki's the one who makes
her laugh for the first time Yeah, yes, right
in the story where yeah, she comes down. She's
mad about Thor killed her father. She demands
wear guild so on and so forth. And, you know,
it definitely, the stories imply that her marriage
with Njord is not a very happy one. They both
seem pretty miserable with it. And so it's, you
know, it's easy to imagine, you know, a goddess
who's not happy with her marriage and here's
this guy who made her laugh and he's so funny.
And I don't know, there's something about the
Skadi and Loki connection that the Lokasenna
implies has a much deeper thing there. But again,
unless we discover some other ancient text that's
been hidden away, it's very unlikely that we
ever get an answer to that particular question.
Something I've never actually picked up on before,
but I certainly will. try and read the Locust
Ender myself at some point because I believe
I've got Caroline Larrington's translation. Yeah.
Because of course, Skadi is a giantess, she's
not Azir, she's not Minir and she comes into
this whole clam because of the death of her father.
She has to marry Baldr the Beautiful but I think
it was, was it Loki? Well it probably was Loki,
I'm just gonna say probably because it usually
is. Well it's a clever idea, it's usually Loki's.
apart from him now has the odd one. And that
says, oh no, don't let her pick Baldur, just
disguise everyone, like we're on blind date.
It's Odin. Oh, was it Odin? Ah, Odin sometimes
does have good ideas, do I suppose. I mean, he
brought Loki in, so. Just disguise everyone behind
the curtain, and she can only pick by their feet.
But then, of course, the other part is, of course,
she also wants to be made laugh, because she's
miserable and distraught, and of course, Loki
does this. And I kid you not, dear viewers and
listeners, he ties his testicles to a goat, and
he makes therefore the goat pull in one direction,
and Loki's therefore being told quite forcefully
in the opposite. So I do a monthly hangout with
my patrons on Patreon, and ever since I told
that story in one of our hangouts, Every session,
they ask me if my next painting is going to be
Loki and the Goat is what they call the painting.
To date, I have no plans of doing that particular
painting, but they like to tease me about it
quite a bit. Here's the line that Loki says.
uh in the lokasenna and this is i'm i'm working
off of the bellows translation um and so uh loki
responds to scotty and he says more lightly thou
speakest with laufy's son of course we referenced
that earlier when thou baddest me come to thy
bed so according to loki she's the one who invited
him into her bed And he says, such things must
be known if now we too shall seek our sins to
tell. And so after that, Skadi backs away and
Sif steps forward to defend Skadi. But anyway,
yeah, I mean, there's clearly something there.
But again, we don't know if it's just Loki. boasting
or making mischief or you know, and of course,
I mean throughout time You know you using a woman's
Promiscuity there are many such stories where
in in grade school or high school a girl gets
inaccurately labeled with that moniker and it
ruins her reputation so it could be as simple
as that it could be Loki just ruining reputations
in order to win an argument but maybe there's
something else there and you know we we just
don't get to know He certainly does express a
lot of knowledge about what all these ladies
get up to. Yes, he does. Makes me wonder, is
he the fly on the wall in all the rooms, quite
literally, because we know he can transform into
a fly. Yeah, yeah, fly, spider, hawk, a seal.
He is quite a lot of creatures. Yeah, but again,
while it's really fun to you know, imagine and
try to get deeper in there. There's no other
reference to this relationship. In fact, it's
in the Lokasenna at the end. They capture Loki,
place him beneath the earth and set up the whole
torture snake face thing. I think it's only in
the Lokasenna that it references Skadi. being
the one to place the snake over his head. The
other version of that story is in the prose and
Snorri, there's a few details that are different.
Also, in the Locus Senna, so in the Snorri version,
it implies that it's discovering the death of
Balder and Loki's responsibility there. that
leads the gods to go and capture Loki. You know,
he runs away, turns into a salmon, they catch
him with a net, yadda yadda yadda. But in the
Lokasenna version, it's because they're so mad
about everything he said in Aegir's hall during
this battle of wits that they just get fed up
with him. But... Also in the Locust Center as
I mentioned earlier he does admit to killing
Balder so Again, we with mythology. It's a little
In and out you never quite know which myth happens
before But you know what we do know is that Thor
has Mjolnir so it's it's after that story and
they reference Balder being dead and Balder is
not in He's not one of the gods gathering, so
it would be easy to imagine that it happens after
that event. So if all that is true, then the
Locus Senna happens quite late in the myth cycle
as it exists. But they're always referencing
Ragnarok as a thing that's going to happen, and
so there's also that question of like... Has
Ragnarok already happened? Is it going to happen?
When does it happen? And so the timing isn't
as clear for all that stuff. But anyway, yeah,
so the difference in the ending with Scotty placing
the snake above his head, I always thought was
was interesting. And she is a bit of a figure,
you know, who's I don't know, she seems like
a lady you don't want to mess with. You know,
I mean, it had to be quite gutsy to go into Asgard
and demand payment for the death of her father
from this opposing tribe. She was originally
of the Giants, and after she gets married to
Njord, she's treated as a goddess, and some would
say she becomes a goddess in that moment. But
again, while it's really fun to imagine and talk
about all this, there's never... There's never
a satisfying answer at the end of all this. It's
always just, again, more questions. It certainly
makes me think, of course, if he did have that
fling with Scabbie, he does, of course, in late,
I'm more familiar with it kind of like being
from the Prose Edda more than the Poetics. Of
course, he then eventually has his fling with
Agnus Abroda. or some people say she's also Gulbeg
Haid, but with a different name. And of course
that's how he has his monstrous children, Hel,
who's half dead, Fenrir, the wolf, and Jormagan,
the serpent. But he does also have a wife, a
much forgotten wife, called Sigyn. Sigyn, yes.
Sigyn is from something else entirely, and he
has two sons with her. who is that is it valley
and gnarly is it gnarly yes it's only gnarly
that sounds like sounds right gnarly n -a -r
-f -i gnarly yeah yeah and um yeah the the bowel
the bowels of valley are are used and gnarly
is the one who gets turned into a wolf all while
sigin has to look on which i've actually um Almost
gosh over a decade ago. I was commissioned to
do a full oil painting of that scene Which is
when I first researched that so on on my website
Fateful signs comm if you click on the Viking
art section and scroll down I have a painting
called the binding of Loki that shows the whole
scene and I have Sijin standing over to the side
holding a bowl and Odin is Pulling a knot into
the intestines and Thor is holding Loki down
But scotty is in the background placing a snake
up in into the ceiling there. So Yeah, it's it's
a it's an intense scene And you know, I know
a lot a lot of people feel like the punishment
doesn't fit the crime With all that but I also
think that, again, it's one of those things where,
as modern people, certain parts of the story
don't feel the same, and one of the things we
lack is that Loki's actions wouldn't have just
been on himself, but his descendants would bear
the pain. I mean, you see that with... Eric the
Red in the Icelandic sagas and you know his children
having to deal with you know his father's crimes
and you know all of that sort of thing and so
I think part of it is We just don't quite understand
the full cultural connotation That was being
told in those stories But it's also fine to just
have your own opinions about it You know based
on reading it as a modern person. Yeah, I mean,
that's true. I mean, I've actually got a book
on my shelf from Flametree Press called Loki,
and it's their kind of like old myths, modern
tellings. And it's half a huge info dump about
Loki's mythical origins and his adventures and
what he represents, what he doesn't represent,
et cetera. But then half of it is short stories
written by creatives. um of all types and backgrounds
and they all pick different aspects of Loki's
past adventures and one of the stories I think
I last read in it was told from the point of
view of Navi as the intestines shackling his
father to the stone and and how even though kind
of like he can't do or say anything he kind of
like he he feels his father's pain when the acid
drips he sees his mother kind of like weeping
as she's carrying the poison around he sees his
other brother kind of like the wolf kind of goes
through a phase of guilt and then kind of remorse
and kind of like rage at being a wolf also kind
of the guilt of having killed his brother and
it ends kind of like with the eventual Narby
eventually letting his family go he can't keep
them all here and that is why supposedly the
bindings around Loki break not because of Ragnarok
because Narby decides right and you've all suffered
enough we've all been for hundreds of years Go
forth my family be free. I will dissolve into
nothing and be a piece of less. I thought that's
a really dark Yeah In both senses of the word
twisted View of things and it certainly paints
Loki in his entire family, which of course not
many people realize he had Right, um from according
to the old stuff in a very very different light
well in in that story the the person that I actually
feel the sorryest for is Loki's dutiful wife,
Sijin, because she's forced to look on as this
punishment is wrought, not just on Loki for his
misdeeds, but on her children. And yet, even
through all of that, she still stands by him.
And, you know, even if he was not in didn't didn't
have these liaisons with all the gods and goddesses.
He certainly had some of them with Angerbota
and others. So describing Loki as a dutiful husband
does not seem particularly accurate and yet Sijin
chooses to be and represents being a dutiful
wife and mother doing, you know, representing
order to go back to the order chaos analogy or
just representing her role to play in that story.
And I just find that, when you just think about
it for even a small amount, it's just so depressing
from her point of view. It is, I think. I've
only ever come across one author who's written
a whole fancy duology, actually. about her, which
is Cat Recta, and her first book is aptly titled
The Goddess of Nothing at all. Because if she
is a goddess, we don't know what she's a goddess
of. We don't know her particular powers. She's
not like Freya, beautiful. She's not like Brig,
kind of like with mythical powers. She's not
like Sif with golden hair. She just happens to
be the lucky or unlucky person who got where
to look. We don't even know how these two met,
but she kind of like covers that entire beginning.
all the way through to Ragnarok and everything
and then she has a whole kind of like sequel
that is after Ragnarok and how Sigyn and Loki
kind of like find themselves off to Ragnarok
and make peace with the world and restore it
and rebuild things and there's lots going on
but it is a beautifully deep it certainly gives
a picture of Loki being mistreated and that he's
always manipulated and controlled by Odin as
almost as a spy to kind of like go infiltrate
things and find things out because you're sneaky,
because you can shape shift, because you can
do these things. And Odin's treatment of his
children, not just of kind of like Hel, Freya
and Jormungandr, but even Sleipnir, it really
presents a very dark version of Odin. dominating,
controlling satan here as a way of dominating,
controlling Loki. And Loki didn't give him freely.
Odin took him because he felt Loki was starting
to be a bit too rebellious, a bit too independent,
a bit too willful against him. Try not to spoil
it too much. But I really, really enjoyed it.
But yes, I can't remember what her other book
was called after it. Oh, what was it? Oh, it's
funny. When you look back at your bookshelf,
it looks like you're looking deep into the media.
I wish my bookshelves were as deep as this meat
hall. If you join me on YouTube, dear listeners,
you will see my beautiful virtual meat hall.
But yes, my bookshelves are further behind me,
but they're not near enough to be a nice backdrop.
Otherwise, I'd be writing through to the doorway
and I'd be waking up my five -year -old, which
wouldn't do anyone any good. But yes, Epilogue
of the Lost Gods is the sequel to The Goddess
and Nothing at All, and I do recommend reading
that if anyone wants to find out more about Loki
in a modern... view context kind of thing. Of
course, it's set in a fantastical world, but
it was really well written. And of course, there's
always Joanne Harris with her Gospel of Loki
and the Testament of Loki. And Loki also features
in rune marks and rune light. But there's quite
a number of books that feature Loki, surprisingly.
I wonder if that goes back to what we were talking
about earlier of why so much is written about
Loki is because authors really like Loki. Perhaps
it was true for our ancestors a thousand years
back, just as much as it's true for modern writers.
Quite possibly, quite possibly. Certainly, I
guess, as you pointed out, we don't really know
where he came from, how he met Odin, where he
became involved with his ear, why he never left,
how he became a milkmaid for so long. There's
so much we don't know. And as I remember saying,
it gives you as creatives of all different types
of mediums, free range to kind of like reposition,
re -angle looks at it from a different point
of view and help also connect it to the now to
kind of like a path that can seem so far and
so foreign at times and yet have that connection
ring so true of so many levels. Gosh, we could
go on and on and on, but I'm aware of the time
and how long our dear viewers in this are probably
sitting, heard the word Loki. Don't try taking
shots if you say, if we say Loki, you wouldn't
last half an hour. But that'll be a fun drinking
game and probably quite Loki -esque, if I must
say. But please do go support Sam Flegel and
his wonderful Kickstarter and his wonderful art
and even if you don't get the Kickstarter go
give him a few a few quid or a few dollars or
whatever it is on Patreon because it's worth
it. His art covers more than Loki, he's got some
fantastic work. I mean I remember when I last
interviewed you, you gave me a beautiful sneak
peek of the new Valkyrie print that you did with
her beautiful kind of horned headdress and the
blade against the land's throat. if i could have
that if i had the wall space and had the money
to afford it i would um it'll ask the cat so
it's just kind of a wannabe and wannabe wish
list absolutely if i ever get to becky cave because
i would love to have actual stuff behind me and
not just a virtual backdrop but there we go For
folks listening, if you search for Locust Center
on Kickstarter, you'll find it. I'm sure Becky
will share some links as well. It's called the
Illustrated Locust Center and it's going to be
funding. Now through December 11th at the time
of this recording, we're at 75 % funded. So we're
getting very close to reaching the funding goal.
So it seems like it's going to be a real book.
So here's, yeah, fingers crossed. Here's hope.
Yes. Yes, and even if you don't support it, send
it to your friends because if you like Vikings,
if you like Loki, if you like Norse mythology,
you should give Facebook your attention and definitely
give Sam's art and Sam himself your attention
because as you can see, he's a lovely guy and
a beautifully talented artist as well. You're
very kind, thank you. Well, thank you so much
for joining me back in Valhalla and I wish you
best of luck with the Kickstarter and I'm sure
we will have you on again soon whenever the new
variant of Loki emerges in modern media and we
can do another dissection. Sounds great. Thank
you so much, Sam. Thank you. I appreciate it.