WEBVTT

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Welcome everyone to a very special bonus

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episode of our Valhalla Conversations. And this

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one is all about the lovely artist Sam Flegel

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who's a returning guest to our great Mead Hall

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of the Gods because he has got a very special

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and exciting Kickstarter that is now live, that

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is now receiving funding and it needs you, dear

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viewers and listeners, to help it reach its own

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goal because... He has done some marvelous meditation

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and indeed artistic translation of the original

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Loki Senna, which is the oldest poetic verse

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featuring Loki himself, doing what Loki does

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best, insulting everyone else, and just being

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a general kind of like rogue, if put it politely.

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So welcome, Sam. I love that. What a delightfully

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British way of describing Loki as a rogue. I

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love it. Thanks for having me. We're welcome

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to have you back. And of course, for those who

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are on YouTube, you can observe the beautiful,

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large, exclusive artworks that you can get with

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certain tiers of the Kickstarter, I believe.

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framed up beautifully behind Salomon. If you're

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listening on all the audio channels, please do

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come on over to YouTube because you really need

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to see his artwork. It is stunning. It is ink

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blobs and line art. Is that the correct way of

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describing it? Yeah. So I start with ink blobs,

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which involves me taking watered down ink and

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just smearing all sorts of stuff around. And

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I mean, I use everything from like a water spray

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bottle to an old Amazon gift card that I'll run

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over the whole thing and I just try to make different

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varied shapes and then I go in with pencil and

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Find the illustration inside of that and then

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I finish it using brush and ink and Then a little

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bit of acrylic white at the end to to finish

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the piece, but yeah Well, it is stunning. To

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kind of like whet the appetite of our viewers

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and listeners, would you mind describing the

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pieces you've got beautifully framed behind you?

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Yeah, sure. I'd be happy to. So the one directly

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above my head is one I've been promoting a lot

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with the Kickstarter, and I call that one the

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Gate of Death. It comes from a line when it's

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very late in the Lokasenna when Thor, who was

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absent for about the first 90 % of the poem,

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he shows up at the end and gets in a fight with

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Loki as one would expect. And so he threatens

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that he's going to hit Loki with his hammer and

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send him down to the Gate of Death. So for that

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one, that's why I have kind of the Thor's hammer

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shape. Basically as a negative space or there's

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nothing there and then I filled it all up with

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various Skeletons and warriors and all the sorts

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of things that are described in the Viking version

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of of hell So of course only one L And then over

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here we have Loki with his flickering flames

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that's one of the last verses there and that

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shows Loki sort of looking quite angry and he's

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surrounded by fire and At the end of the poem,

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he basically storms off and says, well, you're

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all going to burn in Ragnarok anyway. And then

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he just exits. The one to the side of my left,

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I guess, will be the viewer's right. We have

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Loki balancing a dart. And that piece. is minds

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the blame, and he gets in a battle, a verbal

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spat with Frigg, Queen of the Gods, and he actually

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admits to being responsible for killing Balder,

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which I think is interesting because in some

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of the other stories, he tries to keep that quite

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secret, obviously. But in this one, he actually

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says that he is the one to blame. And then just

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below that, we have swallow the Allfather up,

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where Fenris is swallowing up Odin. On my other

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side, we have a piece that might be kind of difficult

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to explain because it has, I think, 13 different

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figures in it, and it's from the very beginning

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of the poem where the author lists every single

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god and servant present in the hall where the

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gathering's happening, so it's sort of a... Pelage

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of all the gods and goddesses and then behind

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me I won't see this one very much because I'll

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be covering it with my face in my chair That

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one's Loki's venom which is also from the early

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part of the poem where where Loki says He's going

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to give the gods his words with venom And so

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I've made Loki's tongue into a snake for that

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one, which I do use a lot of snakes in in reference

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to Loki And of course he did, you know, Jormungandr,

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the great serpent, is one of his kids and then

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the serpent will be placed above his head to

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drip venom. But then also just kind of the general

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feeling we all have towards snakes being sort

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of sneaky characters when they are anthropomorphized

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in various myths and other folk tales, that sort

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of thing. Well, thank you. That was wonderful.

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I am corrected that some of these prints, if

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not all of them, are available as part of certain

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tiers in your Kickstarter. So, the Gate of Death

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I have as a print, and the Venom I have as a

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print as a part of the Kickstarter, and then

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several of the originals are also available.

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And for anyone who has been following along,

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if there's an original that someone's interested

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in, They just need to reach out to me. I'd be

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happy to create a special tier for them if there

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is a particular piece they want to ask about.

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Some of the Locust Center pieces have also, I've

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sold at various events throughout the last year

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or two, but I still have a whole lot left. I

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mean, I created over 60 drawings for the book.

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So yeah, there's a lot. Gosh. And I guess we

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should kind of like illuminate the viewers and

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listeners that this isn't the first kind of book

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of Norse poetic inspired art or translated artworks

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which is a translation of your interpretation

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of the poetics that inspired it all because you've

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also done this for the Voluspa and of course

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for the Havamal as well. Yes indeed the Havamal

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was the first and it started with my own personal

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journey. I wanted a reason to learn the Havamal

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And I knew if I did drawings based on the poems

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that I that's just the way my brain works is

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even in school, I would often draw in school

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and teachers would sometimes get mad at me, but

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my grades would often improve because I could

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listen to the teacher while I was drawing and

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then my my memory would be more locked in. So

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I was better at recalling information if I could

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associate it with a picture. So that was kind

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of the idea behind the hobble mall when I when

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I started. and it was very successful. That was

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about seven or eight years ago that I did the

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Habamal, and then a couple years after that I

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did the Beluspa, and then it's been a while,

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but out of all the other books in the Poetic

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Edda, and if memory serves, there's about 14

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different poetry collections. The one I get asked

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about the most is the Locust Senna. It's kind

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of like the third. I think it's because it's

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so entertaining and so juicy. I think that's

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part of it. There's also several references in

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the Lokasenna to events that don't appear in

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any of the other Norse lore. And of course, there's

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a scholarly debate as to why that is. Some folks

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say that Loki is lying and making stuff up. Others

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suggest that... there's secret revelation coming

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from Loki that you're not going to get in some

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of the other poems, and I honestly don't have

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a strong opinion either way in that regard. It's

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just, I don't know, we're humans, we love gossip,

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and that poem is just chocked full of gossip

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about all the Norse gods and goddesses. Yes,

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I mean for those viewers and listeners who might

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not know much about the Poetic Edda, from my

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basic understanding of it, it's a collection

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of Anonymous. Poetics to do with Old Norse gods

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and legends and myths And it just happened to

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be found and compiled in the way that is often

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published and printed today But we don't know

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who wrote them when they were in or how old they

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were at the time they were written down So it's

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all there's a great mystery a huge unknown element

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to and of course some of them are complete some

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of them not I know I've recently been going with

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the poetic header mainly for the not quite the

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saga of the ball songs but kind of like the the

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poetics that contribute to that story because

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of course there's various versions and parts

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of that that are complete little huge jumps in

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storyline and timeline from one character to

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another and this is why I love exploring this

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topic with creatives such as yourself Sam because

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it does offer creatives literally kind of like

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a way in to interpret it in any way that we like,

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and just always make it relevant for today's

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society. That's why Vikings and the mythology

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have just stuck like glue, even since before

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Wagner started doing his thing with operatics.

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Kind of like people like to try to find ourselves

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in the past, even in the far past in this case.

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Yeah, agreed. And I think part of it too is you

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know, it doesn't take you long to get to a riddle

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when you're reading through the Old Norse writings.

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And then you start looking, is there an answer?

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And oftentimes the answer is no. And so then

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your mind just, at least my mind starts sparking,

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going like, well, what might the answer be? And

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I also find it interesting how throughout time,

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different audiences and different creatives throughout

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history have also made very different interpretations

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based on those things. Loki in particular is

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a figure that really until very recently was

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viewed almost like a satanic figure in the story,

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like he was just the bad guy. But when you start

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reading the lore, it doesn't quite match because

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it's definitely not a one -to -one for Christianity

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and the Abrahamic faiths with like an adversarial

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figure because sometimes he's Thor's best friend

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and they're just like palling around through

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Jotunheim and going on adventures together and

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sometimes he and Odin are very good friends and

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then it's just it's not quite the same as the

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the ultimate adversary until you get very late

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into the myth cycle when I wouldn't say Loki

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has a heel turn but he finally permits the ultimate

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sin of being responsible for another God's death

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rather than just a bit of mischief. That's a

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very eloquent way of explaining it and certainly

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in a 20th century context onwards. Of course,

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Marvel Comics set him up very much as the typical

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villain, kind of like horned helmet, demonic,

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cackling, kind of like saying, oh, I've got a

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dastardly, deedly pan and I will have my revenge

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and all that nonsense. And then somehow or another,

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he's come round and become quite the kind of

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like the underdog. I want to say the anti -hero.

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Yes, the anti -hero. That's the phrase I've heard

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commonly associated with him. and well and i

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i don't think it hurts that is it was it tom

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hiddleston hiddlestaff whatever the actor who

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portrays loki uh i i understand for many women

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is very easy on the eyes and so i'm sure that

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it's a factor as well uh there there's a lot

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like i sometimes at conventions uh i i have another

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piece where i call loki's smile where loki's

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mouth has been sewed shut And people will say,

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well, this doesn't look like Tom Hiddleston.

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And I'm like, what? Because it's not. Oh, gosh.

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Yeah. But to your average person, they hear Loki.

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They think Thor and Marvel. And that's it. But

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anyway, yeah. A lot of people don't like that

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piece. They don't like seeing Loki hurt. Which

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I which I think is interesting Because I mean

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obviously in in the lore he's hurt quite a bit

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and throughout yeah, Loka Sena when I depict

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Loki I typically depict him with the scars on

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on his lips and that's that's because if you

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I try to think of these things somewhat chronologically

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and so that story helped to create Mjolnir Thor's

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hammer So if Thor has Mjolnir, then in my opinion

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Loki already has the scars from that particular

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incident. That's a very good point because he

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does certainly turn up a lot in a lot of the

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old stories and adventures. Of course there are

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many that don't involve Loki, they were just

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about Thor, like I can remember reading the one

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where Thor is walking by a riverside. And a mysterious

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figure turns up on the other side there and just

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starts throwing abuse at Thor, as you do. And

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it just turns out to be Odin. The reader knows

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it's Odin, but Thor doesn't realize it's Odin.

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That's a very weird father -son relationship

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going on there. But of course, this is a thing

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kind of like with creative license Marvel decided

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to make Thor actually modestly intelligent, slightly

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charismatic, and just kind of like the kind of

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like archetypal hero figure, whereas in the in

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the original poetics, he's very much sometimes

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an idiot, always quick to anger, and gets into

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as much trouble as Loki does, but without realizing

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it half the time. Yes, and also typically known

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for drinking and eating such a massive amount

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that when you look at older illustrations of

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Thor from, I'm thinking of, I think it was Arthur

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Rackham who did the illustration. Thor has often

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got a bit of a belly on him in some of those

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older interpretations as well, and even some

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modern interpretations once you get outside of

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Marvel. Thor is very much like, I don't know,

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in America I'd imagine him as like, you know,

00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:19.909
the beer guzzling, football loving, big guy that

00:16:19.909 --> 00:16:22.610
everyone really likes but also doesn't want to

00:16:22.610 --> 00:16:26.590
piss off. Yes, yes. I mean, that reminds me kind

00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:29.750
of like when the God of War series started going

00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:32.409
down there north, which I've always been confused

00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:34.529
about, but I don't have a PlayStation, so I've

00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:37.629
just observed from afar, basically. I watched

00:16:37.629 --> 00:16:39.730
my brother play a little bit of it, and he was

00:16:39.730 --> 00:16:42.169
mainly killing, I say killing, defeating all

00:16:42.169 --> 00:16:43.909
the valkyries, which was another interesting

00:16:43.909 --> 00:16:46.809
interpretation. But I know when that was just

00:16:46.809 --> 00:16:48.909
about to come out and they revealed what Berthold

00:16:48.909 --> 00:16:52.950
looked like, he was a very rotund, a very round,

00:16:53.090 --> 00:16:55.330
big deer -bellied, as you say. And there was

00:16:55.330 --> 00:16:57.269
a huge divide among the internet, kind of like,

00:16:57.289 --> 00:16:59.750
that can't be so. Yes, it is there. It can't

00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:03.049
be. But it is. But it can't be. But it is. Indeed.

00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:07.650
So it's certainly kind of like in terms of Loki's

00:17:07.650 --> 00:17:12.349
depictions. I remember during my years as a college

00:17:12.349 --> 00:17:16.500
librarian, one of my students who was very popular

00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:19.339
and often a good reader, she also had a bit of

00:17:19.339 --> 00:17:22.299
an interest in North mythology and she did an

00:17:22.299 --> 00:17:24.660
extended project which is similar to doing a

00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:28.319
DCSE but on a subject of your own choice about

00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.299
the representation of Loki in the Icelandic sagas

00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:34.319
compared to himself in Marvel because of course

00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.200
there is some old artwork but it's often 12th

00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:40.740
century 13th century often to do with the Icelandic

00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:43.799
sagas more than the north poetics and And it

00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.039
does make him out to be kind of like a sneaky

00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.259
cunning almost weasel like figure I'm sure I

00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:51.240
can remember him having a very distinct hat which

00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:53.480
is oh he's actually wearing a hat which is interesting

00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.880
not horns Just a hat because he's depicted as

00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:01.819
a common man type figure Yeah, absolutely, and

00:18:01.819 --> 00:18:04.819
I I definitely lean into some of that. I I mean

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:09.299
I if If Thor is going to be big and burly, then

00:18:09.299 --> 00:18:12.559
Loki needs to be thin and live, in my opinion,

00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:16.680
kind of a, you know, a wiry figure. There's also

00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:23.779
the connection of Loki with fire. And so I do

00:18:23.779 --> 00:18:27.559
that by having Loki's hair almost being like

00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:32.019
a little wisp of flame coming off the top of

00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:35.859
his head. And I often show Loki as red haired.

00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.910
But I don't know that it ever other than I mean

00:18:39.910 --> 00:18:43.609
Thor obviously is red bearded That stated several

00:18:43.609 --> 00:18:47.309
times. I'm not aware if it actually discusses

00:18:47.309 --> 00:18:51.170
Loki's coloring and of course even the connection

00:18:51.170 --> 00:18:55.829
to fire is one of those things that's Largely

00:18:55.829 --> 00:18:59.329
comes from when he gets in the battle with Logie

00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:05.099
and Logie means fire in Old Norse and so I It's

00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:07.599
hard to know if there was a connection truly

00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.920
between Loki and fire or if it's just that the

00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:14.019
name sounded similar. And so much like we enjoy

00:19:14.019 --> 00:19:17.079
puns now, perhaps there was a connection there

00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:19.839
where it was just something that was amusing.

00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.680
And so it was included in a story because of

00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:25.279
the play on words. And I mean, obviously, the

00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.140
Vikings quite enjoyed, you know, wordplay and

00:19:29.140 --> 00:19:31.119
wordsmith. I mean, even the locus center itself.

00:19:31.420 --> 00:19:36.519
Means the flitting of Loki and that's FL Y T

00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:39.559
ing which I'm sure you're aware of but just for

00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:43.460
everyone listening is That's the the verbal battle

00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:47.559
where in the hall after dinner and and probably

00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:51.059
with several rounds of drinks Men in the hall

00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:55.420
would have these Verbal poetry battles and I

00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:57.559
actually the the modern example. I like to think

00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:03.920
of is the epic rap battle. Yes It's two guys

00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:08.500
sort of slamming poetry at one another in a clever

00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:10.900
way where they're trying to twist words but also

00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:14.420
make the other person look like a fool or look

00:20:14.420 --> 00:20:20.660
poorly and that tradition goes back. There's

00:20:20.660 --> 00:20:25.779
references a thousand years ago or more. to that

00:20:25.779 --> 00:20:28.019
sort of thing. And so I don't know, I think that's

00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:29.759
really neat. And then that's, of course, the

00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:33.920
style of the Lokasenna is it's once you get into

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.079
the poem, it breaks down to Loki says something

00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.039
nasty. One of the gods or goddesses says something

00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.819
about Loki that's nasty. And then they just keep

00:20:42.819 --> 00:20:46.400
going back and forth. And each little section

00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.339
breaks down into about four verses, typically,

00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:56.410
where, you know, Loki Starts it off then somebody

00:20:56.410 --> 00:20:59.710
responds. So let's say if it if Odin responds

00:20:59.710 --> 00:21:03.309
well Odin only gets two verses and Loki has two

00:21:03.309 --> 00:21:07.150
verses insulting Odin and then someone new steps

00:21:07.150 --> 00:21:10.730
in to defend Odin or whoever is speaking and

00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:13.390
then they get two verses and it typically goes

00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:16.130
back and forth like that until you get to the

00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:21.750
section on Thor and Thor it's four to six verses

00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:25.460
depending on how you You count it, but Thor basically

00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:28.519
just repeats himself where some of the other

00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.460
gods and goddesses are quite clever. Thor's verses

00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:36.819
always start with, Unmanly one cease, or the

00:21:36.819 --> 00:21:39.859
mighty hammer Mjolnir shall close thy mouth.

00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:43.819
And then the second two lines are always different,

00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.380
but those first two lines and then... He just,

00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:50.259
I mean, he threatens to break Loki's bones. He

00:21:50.259 --> 00:21:52.440
threatens to throw him so far in the east that

00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.059
no one will find him. I mean, it's basically

00:21:55.059 --> 00:21:58.359
just different versions of bodily harm that Thor

00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:02.279
is going to enact on Loki for disrupting the

00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:06.440
event and saying so many mean things. But I don't

00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.680
know, it is interesting how in some of the verses

00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.619
you can really feel the personality of the god

00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:18.380
or goddess come through. in the way they speak

00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:22.440
and interact throughout the poems, even though

00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.460
the poems themselves were probably all written

00:22:24.460 --> 00:22:28.759
by one person, at least in the Locust Center,

00:22:28.819 --> 00:22:32.140
not all of the Poetic Etta, but just in one section.

00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.079
Even then, you can see, I don't know, just the

00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:39.980
different personalities, and they still really

00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:46.319
come through even in modern translations. Yeah,

00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.579
I mean it is fascinating because of course I've

00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:55.000
read various not quite translations of the original

00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.920
source but kind of like modern retellings such

00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.519
of course of Kevin Crossley Holland's retelling

00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:03.500
of the Penguin Book of Norse myths and of course

00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:05.500
reading the one which is my favourite which is

00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:08.819
the Lay of Thrym where Loki and Thor go in Vader.

00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.099
Is it a giant or is it a troll? Though I think

00:23:12.099 --> 00:23:13.900
it's a giant, it's a giant's wedding isn't it?

00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.210
I'm sure it's a giant. I keep wanting to say

00:23:16.210 --> 00:23:19.930
troll, but something else entirely. Well, I mean,

00:23:20.150 --> 00:23:22.789
those terms troll, metten, giant, yoten, they

00:23:22.789 --> 00:23:26.490
all get used interchangeably a lot of times too.

00:23:27.730 --> 00:23:29.650
But yeah, because of course in The Lay of Thrim,

00:23:30.589 --> 00:23:32.950
it's Thor's hammers who's stolen, and it always

00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:34.289
makes me laugh when I first read it, because

00:23:34.289 --> 00:23:36.460
Thor basically wakes up thinking, right, Loki

00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:39.460
must have it. Where was Loki? Loki, where's my

00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:41.599
hammer? Loki's like, I don't have it. Stop hurting

00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:44.619
me, please. But I might be able to help you otherwise.

00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:47.220
And then, of course, they go ask Freyja for a

00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:51.160
cloak. And she just absolutely gets enraged by

00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.200
the idea of lending her cloak to anyone. And

00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:54.720
then they actually say, well, actually, it's

00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.779
because Thor's lost his hammer. And she's like,

00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:03.900
oh, OK, that's serious. Yeah, I like that my

00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:06.480
favorite part of that story is the it almost

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:11.019
reads like Little Red Riding Hood when they get

00:24:11.019 --> 00:24:13.940
when they get to the wedding and you know Thor's

00:24:13.940 --> 00:24:18.299
drinking and the Giants like Freya sure is drinking

00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:22.059
a lot And then you know Loki's line is basically

00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:25.779
like oh, yes She's so thirsty for your love and

00:24:25.779 --> 00:24:28.519
it kind of you know keeps going along along that

00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:32.009
way of Thor just being Thor and then Loki making

00:24:32.009 --> 00:24:37.970
excuses. I'm actually working on a piece directly

00:24:37.970 --> 00:24:40.710
about all that that I call, I think I'm going

00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:48.670
to call it Thor's Wedding. I've always wanted

00:24:48.670 --> 00:24:52.089
to do a piece of Thor in a wedding dress. Oh

00:24:52.089 --> 00:24:54.390
yes, it's got to be done, it's got to be done.

00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.460
It's at the point where there's gonna be a bunch

00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:03.160
of dead giant stacked up behind him kind of thing

00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:06.940
I'm working on but anyway, yeah. Oh Well, I will

00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:09.759
look forward to seeing that when it's done. Yeah

00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:12.519
I haven't posted to me places. I have posted

00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:15.480
the initial sketches for that one on my patreon

00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.400
I tend to show a lot of work in progress and

00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.259
stuff that I like to be a little more finished

00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:24.799
with stuff when I release it on the wider social

00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.779
media, but My patrons over there get to see all

00:25:27.779 --> 00:25:30.900
the the early working and behind -the -scenes

00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:34.460
stuff and also for the Locust Center For for

00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:37.059
almost I don't know six months now all the drawings

00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:39.400
for the Locust Center have been on my patreon

00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:42.480
as well So it's been interesting to interact

00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.339
him The other thing that's fun is like some drawings

00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:49.099
did very well with with my patrons But then other

00:25:49.099 --> 00:25:52.420
ones are more popular when I release it on YouTube

00:25:52.420 --> 00:25:54.900
or social media so I mean, I would say everybody

00:25:54.900 --> 00:25:58.980
has different tastes. I've been doing professional

00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:01.880
art now for 15 years, and I feel like I've gotten

00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:05.359
worse at figuring out what people are going to

00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.619
like and which ones they're not. I don't worry

00:26:09.619 --> 00:26:12.420
about it. I just make the stuff I think is cool

00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:14.819
and then release it to the world. But it's just

00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:17.900
always interesting to me which ones people kind

00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:23.109
of latch onto and which ones they don't. I think

00:26:23.109 --> 00:26:25.210
that's always the best way to start with any

00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:28.289
type of artwork. I think it's something I learned

00:26:28.289 --> 00:26:32.710
back when I was in my early 20s when I did my

00:26:32.710 --> 00:26:34.910
English studies with a creative writing degree

00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:37.210
and we were always talking of like write first

00:26:37.210 --> 00:26:40.349
for yourself and then when it comes to rewriting

00:26:40.349 --> 00:26:44.130
then try rewrite for the reader or the publisher

00:26:44.130 --> 00:26:45.869
or the agent depending on where you're trying

00:26:45.869 --> 00:26:49.470
to send it next. But the most fun is always had

00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:51.579
when you're just writing it for yourself. I think

00:26:51.579 --> 00:26:53.640
and this is partly why I do this whole podcast

00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.240
because I don't mind if no one not doesn't listen

00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.359
to it. I still get to have fun talking to great

00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.559
people like you. So that's a great attitude to

00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:05.640
have. Well, I know it's not going to make me

00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:07.619
rich and I'm not going to become an influencer

00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:10.559
overnight. I'm not going to hit. so many subscribers

00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.380
that I can actually start earning on YouTube

00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:15.559
or Spotify or those places so if anyone else

00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.000
relates or connects then it's a bonus and I will

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.819
say this dear viewers and listeners if you do

00:27:19.819 --> 00:27:22.460
happen to be there if you do exist please don't

00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:24.839
go check out Sam Fiegel on Patreon because I

00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:26.660
will definitely be doing that afterwards because

00:27:26.660 --> 00:27:29.799
I want to get a sneak peek at that Thor picture

00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:34.180
if nothing else if nothing else But going back

00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:36.779
slightly to the Lay of Thrim, for those who might

00:27:36.779 --> 00:27:38.839
be curious, they're like Thor in a wedding dress.

00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.500
Like, what is? What is going on? What are these

00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:45.240
people making up? No, we're not. It is a genuine

00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:51.940
story. And after kind of Loki has taken... Freya's

00:27:51.940 --> 00:27:54.799
magic falcon cloak and gone flying off as a falcon

00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.559
he finds this giant just sat on top of a hill

00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.559
I believe making a dog collar or sharpening with

00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.839
a whetstone I can't remember which one it was

00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:05.039
just doing something rather random and mundane

00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:07.819
and Loki asks him have you seen Thor's hammer

00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:09.880
anywhere because I know what you giants are like

00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.000
and he goes oh I have it but it's so deep underground

00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.119
that even Odin won't be able to get it And so

00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:17.200
Loki asks him, well, what can I give you in return

00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.579
for those hammer? And he says, I would like Freya.

00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.140
I want Freya for my bride, please. And so Loki

00:28:23.140 --> 00:28:26.420
has to go back and give that news. A common note

00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:29.019
in Norse mythology, everybody always wants to

00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:32.029
marry Freya. Mm -hmm. But she doesn't want to

00:28:32.029 --> 00:28:35.150
marry anyone. She's quite happy with her cats.

00:28:35.829 --> 00:28:37.750
And just as enraged as she was when she had to

00:28:37.750 --> 00:28:40.390
give her falcon cloak up, she is triply enraged

00:28:40.390 --> 00:28:42.470
when she says, oh, you've got to marry this giant,

00:28:42.549 --> 00:28:45.150
because no one can think of a way out. And I

00:28:45.150 --> 00:28:47.849
do believe, actually, this is the one tale that

00:28:47.849 --> 00:28:49.890
I'm familiar with, where Loki doesn't actually

00:28:49.890 --> 00:28:52.809
come up with a solution. It's another god, Himdal,

00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:55.390
of all the gods. Because, or at least in the

00:28:55.390 --> 00:28:57.490
versions that I've read, kind of like, oh, I've

00:28:57.490 --> 00:28:59.859
got an idea. But you're not going to like it,

00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:02.920
Thor. And so it's like, go on then, because it's

00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:04.299
got to be better than everyone else's ideas,

00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.880
which is just sending Freyr off. And he goes,

00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.200
I think we should send you instead of Freyr.

00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.839
But have the lady goddesses dress you up with

00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.279
the bridal crown and the veil and the lady dress

00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:16.819
and the keys. And Thor goes, yeah, you're right.

00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:18.720
I don't like that idea. But Loki's like, yes,

00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:20.380
that's a brilliant idea. And I could be your

00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:23.400
handmaid. Ta -da. I'm already a lady. Because

00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.920
he can just do that without any qualms or crims

00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.400
from anyone at all. Indeed. the the original

00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:33.059
gender fluid yes and it does make me wonder actually

00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:34.859
why doesn't Loki just shape -shift into looking

00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:36.920
like Freyja but I guess he must always therefore

00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:39.660
look like a female version of himself and not

00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.980
a female version of someone else but equally

00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:44.680
just having Thor in a wedding dress is just comedic

00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:46.619
and they do have to give him quite a long veil

00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:49.559
in order to hide his beard and these angry eyes

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.140
and and that relates to of course when they get

00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:56.309
to the wedding Loki says Thor, don't speak, don't

00:29:56.309 --> 00:29:58.210
say anything, don't do anything, let me do all

00:29:58.210 --> 00:30:02.049
the talking. And so Thor gets there. And I always

00:30:02.049 --> 00:30:05.089
find this bit comical. It might be a traditional

00:30:05.089 --> 00:30:07.549
aspect of that time, but kind of like the ladies

00:30:07.549 --> 00:30:10.529
at the wedding all have little pastries to eat.

00:30:10.890 --> 00:30:13.769
Whereas the blokes, they have salmon, they have

00:30:13.769 --> 00:30:18.579
ox, and they have barrels of ale. And of course,

00:30:18.579 --> 00:30:21.579
Thor eats a lot of both. He eats all the pastries,

00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:23.720
so much the charbing of all the ladies there,

00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:26.940
including the giant sister. And then he eats

00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:29.960
like six salmon, three oxen and drinks like five

00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:32.099
barrels of ale. And this is then relating to

00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:34.799
what you're saying earlier about how the giant

00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.319
groomed to be. He says, well, why is Freya drinking

00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:44.529
so much? Because it's not prayer. about that

00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:47.250
story that I think is really interesting. I can't

00:30:47.250 --> 00:30:51.089
remember who I was reading, but apparently part

00:30:51.089 --> 00:30:53.589
of the story that, as modern audiences, we're

00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:57.690
not aware of, but that it's believed to be a

00:30:57.690 --> 00:31:02.329
Viking wedding custom was to place a Thor's hammer

00:31:02.329 --> 00:31:07.769
in the bride's lap, which is meant to be a blessing

00:31:07.769 --> 00:31:14.250
of fertility. So that's the piece. of why the

00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:18.210
plan's going to work is because in a proper wedding,

00:31:18.609 --> 00:31:21.430
if Thor's the bride, then there's a point where

00:31:21.430 --> 00:31:24.890
they have to put Thor's hammer in the bride's

00:31:24.890 --> 00:31:27.670
lap. And since the giant has the real Thor's

00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:30.069
hammer, why not use the real Thor's hammer rather

00:31:30.069 --> 00:31:35.789
than a necklace or some sort of object that represented

00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:39.809
the Thor's hammer? So I just always thought that

00:31:39.809 --> 00:31:42.809
that was an interesting little scholarly note.

00:31:43.099 --> 00:31:48.380
this idea of the hammer being a symbol of male

00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:51.960
virility and placing that in a lady's lap and

00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:56.440
the obvious procreation connotations that come

00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.200
from such imagery. Because of course they do

00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.759
present it with the handle erect, not the other

00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.079
way around because then it wouldn't stand up.

00:32:05.299 --> 00:32:10.400
Indeed. It does mirror the imagery of the male

00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:12.910
body part quite well. and so you can kind of

00:32:12.910 --> 00:32:15.789
see that kind of see that um and I guess this

00:32:15.789 --> 00:32:19.029
is kind of like the strange thing which certainly

00:32:19.029 --> 00:32:21.349
I've become more aware of through my own research

00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:23.390
on the Valkyries which I now have spoken to you

00:32:23.390 --> 00:32:26.130
about before. Yeah. And if like even in the Norse

00:32:26.130 --> 00:32:28.430
poetics there's so much we find out about the

00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:31.369
Norse gods and indeed little habits and rituals

00:32:31.369 --> 00:32:33.029
like that which might have come from the actual

00:32:33.029 --> 00:32:35.690
practices of the time but we don't know much

00:32:35.690 --> 00:32:38.230
about the female goddesses and that side of things

00:32:38.230 --> 00:32:40.150
so kind of like there is no evidence of Freya

00:32:40.150 --> 00:32:42.130
being called upon in a marriage even though she's

00:32:42.130 --> 00:32:45.220
also the goddess of fertility. as much as all

00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:48.779
three should be. Yeah, or Frigg, as I mean, it

00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:51.140
is referenced that she, I mean, I think it's

00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:54.160
in the prose, Etta. It says that she looked after

00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:58.200
the contracts of marriage or one of her handmaidens

00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.319
did. I'm blanking on on which. But other than

00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:04.519
that one little sentence, that's I mean, all

00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:08.000
of of the feminine side of marriage is basically

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.140
summed up in that. And that one thing and then

00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:12.920
of course the other glaring thing to many people

00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:16.680
is obviously Odin is the all father Is there

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:21.839
a mother to his his father that's supposed to

00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:26.299
uh balance that balance that out, but um I don't

00:33:26.299 --> 00:33:28.960
know. Maybe there's many mothers, uh as opposed

00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.900
to just the one father. I don't know but Well,

00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.059
certainly i've been following along all your

00:33:35.059 --> 00:33:37.880
real faith on instagram of you wonderfully narrating

00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.559
the passages that inspire all the many artworks

00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.519
you've done for the Loki Center. And of course,

00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:44.339
it always fascinates me when you read about one

00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:46.940
that mentions about a goddess, whether it's one

00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:49.220
that's known or more importantly, one that isn't

00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:51.259
known about, like we only get the name in that

00:33:51.259 --> 00:33:53.460
one reference in the Loki Center and that's it.

00:33:53.660 --> 00:33:57.839
I don't know anything else. Geffen, who is, I

00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:01.960
think her name appears as one of the handmaidens.

00:34:02.250 --> 00:34:06.109
in the Prose Edda, but outside of that, we have

00:34:06.109 --> 00:34:10.110
very little. And in the Locus Senna, it seems

00:34:10.110 --> 00:34:14.250
to imply, I believe it references her sight and

00:34:14.250 --> 00:34:18.510
her skill with prophecy, which also brings to

00:34:18.510 --> 00:34:22.250
mind the Veluspa and the role of the vulva or

00:34:22.250 --> 00:34:25.610
the seer that, you know, obviously was clearly,

00:34:25.949 --> 00:34:30.289
I mean, the prophecy and females even to like

00:34:30.289 --> 00:34:36.469
the Norns, right, as blessings and almost like

00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:41.269
these fairy -like creatures that look after the

00:34:41.269 --> 00:34:45.349
strand of your life. And I always think of Sleeping

00:34:45.349 --> 00:34:47.909
Beauty when the three good fairies give their

00:34:47.909 --> 00:34:50.750
blessing and then the one evil fairy Maleficent

00:34:50.750 --> 00:34:52.809
gives her blessing. But I mean, if you think

00:34:52.809 --> 00:34:54.489
about that, that's from Grimm's fairy tales.

00:34:54.570 --> 00:34:58.389
That's a Germanic story. So maybe what is a fairy

00:34:58.570 --> 00:35:02.210
very late in the lore, if we rewind back, goes

00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:05.070
back to this custom of the Norns being in charge

00:35:05.070 --> 00:35:09.050
of fate. Regardless of my own conjecture there,

00:35:09.570 --> 00:35:12.809
what we can say certainly is that females seem

00:35:12.809 --> 00:35:17.030
to be the ones in charge of future sight and

00:35:17.030 --> 00:35:20.809
of prophecy. And so, if that's true, then Geffen,

00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:25.070
it would imply, had a very important role in

00:35:25.070 --> 00:35:30.260
the Pantheon or within Asgard. but all we get

00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:33.539
is Loki says something nasty and Odin's like

00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:36.719
well don't you know don't don't counteract Geffen's

00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.860
sight you don't want to bet against Geffen because

00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:42.659
you know she sees the future basically so but

00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:46.019
yeah and then the other more common tactic Loki

00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:49.260
uses throughout the Locust Center specifically

00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:52.880
with all of the goddesses is he basically just

00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:56.840
calls them all derogatory words that involve

00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:00.699
women who procreate or use their body too often

00:36:00.699 --> 00:36:04.619
in a sexual manner. And there's quite a range

00:36:04.619 --> 00:36:07.260
of insults there, but they all basically boil

00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:13.980
down to some version of their own promiscuity.

00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:19.320
Whereas the male insults usually come down to

00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:24.840
being unmanly and then a debate, which I suppose

00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.880
that does highlight something that may have been

00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:34.440
very important to Old Norse culture. Women were

00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:41.579
considered virtuous for their own sexual fidelity,

00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.400
and men were considered virtuous for how manly

00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:50.659
they were perceived by the other men. And it's

00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:52.880
not too hard to believe considering how many

00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:59.500
other cultures also hold similar ideals, though

00:36:59.500 --> 00:37:03.579
it does challenge somewhat the notions that a

00:37:03.579 --> 00:37:08.519
lot of modern people have about like female Viking

00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.760
warriors and soldiers. And there's obviously

00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:15.280
a whole scholarly debate about all of that stuff

00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:17.619
that I don't know that we need to get into. It's

00:37:17.619 --> 00:37:21.820
just you know, I don't know. This is where I

00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:24.280
really get excited about the poems is when you

00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.639
start thinking about the pieces and you realize

00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.900
that the root of it, it's just people and that

00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:34.099
people have always been kind of the same and

00:37:34.099 --> 00:37:37.280
that these people a thousand years ago or longer

00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.639
were not all that different from us. The difference

00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:44.699
was just in terms of the technology that they

00:37:44.699 --> 00:37:49.239
had access to while they were alive. Yeah, very

00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:52.059
much, very much so. That echoes quite strongly

00:37:52.059 --> 00:37:55.440
with a foreword written by the late Harry Jones

00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.139
of the Monty Python fame, because in our last

00:37:58.139 --> 00:37:59.860
episode, the viewers and listeners, because he's

00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:03.639
coming out after episode 20, which is where I

00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:06.719
discover and explore the many versions of Eric

00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.219
the Viking, because he was more than just a film.

00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:10.940
I learned that he was a children's book and it

00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:13.579
was a wonderful children's book. and I had the

00:38:13.579 --> 00:38:16.179
30th anniversary version and Toby Jones wrote

00:38:16.179 --> 00:38:18.300
that because I didn't realize he was a medievalist,

00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:20.480
which is quite cool, having a comedian who's

00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:24.739
a medievalist. But he tried to get into the Icelandic,

00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:27.380
no, he tried to get into the Norse sagas but

00:38:27.380 --> 00:38:29.219
he found the term very dry because it's all like

00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:31.159
so -and -so was the son of so -and -so who lived

00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:33.480
at such -and -such a place who was also the father

00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:36.280
of a sinister and it goes on about lineage and

00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.059
they did make a whole spook of that in the old

00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:42.280
saga. which is a spoof of Nyal's saga, if I could

00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:45.599
ever get the pronunciation right. But he says

00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:47.579
at the end of his foreword, because of course

00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:49.659
this book came out a couple of years before he

00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:51.860
died from dementia, I believe, or Alzheimer's,

00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:55.920
one of the two. He says kind of like it. it's

00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.480
heartwarming to find that these stories are essentially

00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:00.800
just people, no matter how far apart we are.

00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:02.900
And people are people no matter what era they're

00:39:02.900 --> 00:39:05.920
alive in. And it goes, good grief, isn't that

00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.000
good? I'm like, yes, it is kind of thing. Because

00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:12.380
it means that humanity, no matter how evolved

00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:15.980
we are in technology, in knowledge, in ability

00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:20.139
to do things, in transport and whatnot, you can

00:39:20.139 --> 00:39:21.639
have us all around the world be connected, yet

00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.920
we're still all human at the core of it all.

00:39:24.110 --> 00:39:28.690
Absolutely, and I think there's also a fallacy

00:39:28.690 --> 00:39:31.869
of modern audiences to imagine that we're quite

00:39:31.869 --> 00:39:35.349
a bit more sophisticated than our ancestors were,

00:39:35.849 --> 00:39:39.570
and it really doesn't take much research at all

00:39:39.570 --> 00:39:44.449
to have that notion proved false almost immediately.

00:39:47.650 --> 00:39:51.110
people were still worried about their families

00:39:51.110 --> 00:39:54.809
and money and making ends meet and fame and will

00:39:54.809 --> 00:39:58.670
I be remembered and are my children sick or is

00:39:58.670 --> 00:40:04.590
my spouse well and health and just all the same

00:40:04.590 --> 00:40:09.250
things that normal adult people are concerned

00:40:09.250 --> 00:40:15.079
with in 2025. I mean, certainly in terms of the

00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:18.860
Loki Center being the kind of like the epic round

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:21.440
of insults that it is, I guess you could call

00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.579
it kind of like the Old Norse version of EastEnders,

00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:25.519
where there's a big spat going on between like

00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:27.579
the antagonists and the protagonists of the cast

00:40:27.579 --> 00:40:29.780
and they're having one of them big shouting matches

00:40:29.780 --> 00:40:33.059
before they start throwing punches. Because it

00:40:33.059 --> 00:40:35.860
is kind of like verbal punch in a way. Yeah,

00:40:35.860 --> 00:40:39.250
oh absolutely. And I'm certainly delighted when

00:40:39.250 --> 00:40:41.230
I started playing, although I haven't got very

00:40:41.230 --> 00:40:43.690
far in it because life and parenting robs me

00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:46.389
of play time. But the Assassin's Creed Valhalla,

00:40:46.449 --> 00:40:48.849
which of course is set in 10th century England,

00:40:49.530 --> 00:40:52.909
and they quite often will have flighting contests

00:40:52.909 --> 00:40:54.789
and you come across them in various settlements.

00:40:54.869 --> 00:40:56.429
Some of them are easy to do, some of them are

00:40:56.429 --> 00:40:58.030
quite hard because they give you a kind of a

00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:00.289
timer. It's kind of like he says the first line,

00:41:00.349 --> 00:41:01.690
then you've got three options and you've got

00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:03.809
to pick the one that matches the right beat or

00:41:03.809 --> 00:41:06.880
that matches the right rhyme. It's fun. It's

00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.239
fun. I didn't realize that was in that game.

00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:12.559
That's interesting. Yeah, it's got a few nice

00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.619
things. Of course, there is some artistic license

00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:23.440
taken. The fact that there's an accurate historical

00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:27.099
reference in a modern video game. I mean, that's

00:41:27.099 --> 00:41:29.980
cool. They clearly did some research before they

00:41:29.980 --> 00:41:33.699
created that game. And I mean, I don't know,

00:41:34.219 --> 00:41:37.480
I think many cultures have their version of the

00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.420
the cut down fight. You know, I mean, I think

00:41:40.420 --> 00:41:44.300
of in well, not just in America, but England

00:41:44.300 --> 00:41:47.059
is famous for this, too. But like the comedy

00:41:47.059 --> 00:41:51.179
roast or roast battles where two comedians will

00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:57.559
will go back and forth, you know, lobbing insults

00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.710
at at one another. And then. It's even a thing

00:42:01.710 --> 00:42:05.010
that's judged and there's you know shows where

00:42:05.010 --> 00:42:07.929
people win prizes for being the best at insults

00:42:07.929 --> 00:42:10.409
And you know all you know all of that kind of

00:42:10.409 --> 00:42:13.650
stuff which also leads me into when I imagine

00:42:13.650 --> 00:42:17.469
the Locus Senna I Like to imagine it having been

00:42:17.469 --> 00:42:23.190
performed as a play. Oh Yes, so if the the structure

00:42:23.190 --> 00:42:25.989
of the Locus Senna, there's a prologue Which

00:42:25.989 --> 00:42:30.360
is a bit of prose before the poems start And

00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:35.280
then there's 66 verses that include a wide cast

00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:40.619
of characters. And then it ends with an epilogue

00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:46.639
that sort of wraps the whole thing up. But it's

00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:50.519
very easy. You'd only need a cast of around 14

00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:55.210
to 16 folks. And obviously the the most important

00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:58.550
character would have been Loki himself in this

00:42:58.550 --> 00:43:02.690
particular play But it's easy to imagine it being

00:43:02.690 --> 00:43:07.230
performed in a great hall after a meal in front

00:43:07.230 --> 00:43:11.610
of a fire and you know just having the different

00:43:11.610 --> 00:43:16.730
people recite the the poems and I imagine you

00:43:16.730 --> 00:43:19.469
know with certain ones just like with a rap battle

00:43:19.469 --> 00:43:22.780
or the roast battle I imagine after someone's

00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:25.920
done speaking you hear the ooh or you know, like

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:28.900
people would laugh because there's there's parts

00:43:28.900 --> 00:43:33.340
that are funny and There's puns in there too

00:43:33.340 --> 00:43:37.059
of like wordplay and some of that's lost a translation

00:43:37.059 --> 00:43:41.940
But there's there's still an element of it. But

00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:44.000
anyway, yeah, that's how I like to think of it

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.300
is That it it would have been something that

00:43:47.300 --> 00:43:50.739
wasn't just read but and maybe not even just

00:43:50.739 --> 00:43:54.239
recited but recited by multiple people as an

00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.659
ensemble. Yes, I mean that's quite true because

00:43:57.659 --> 00:44:01.000
of course a lot of Norse culture was oral. It

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:03.579
was kind of like any writings of Norse stuff

00:44:03.579 --> 00:44:06.519
was done centuries after often by Christian people

00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.519
because it was always the Christian people, especially

00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:11.019
men, that were in positions of authority or power

00:44:11.019 --> 00:44:14.949
or wealth that learned how to write. We have

00:44:14.949 --> 00:44:17.989
room stone carvings, but that's about as literate

00:44:17.989 --> 00:44:22.769
as you'd get in the Viking Age, really. And if

00:44:22.769 --> 00:44:26.869
the law speaker in Iceland can remember all their

00:44:26.869 --> 00:44:29.250
hundred -odd -plus laws, I'm sure people at the

00:44:29.250 --> 00:44:30.929
time would have easily been able to remember

00:44:30.929 --> 00:44:34.070
this. And it could easily have been told by the

00:44:34.070 --> 00:44:36.789
fireside in families, as well as in great halls.

00:44:36.909 --> 00:44:38.750
Because, of course, it was all stories about

00:44:39.150 --> 00:44:42.469
the people that they believed in or looked to,

00:44:42.510 --> 00:44:45.349
or looked to as possibly bad examples, for example,

00:44:45.449 --> 00:44:47.269
kind of like, don't go to bed being like Loki,

00:44:47.409 --> 00:44:51.190
or you won't get a Yule log this Christmas. Excuse

00:44:51.190 --> 00:44:52.949
the Christmas word there, it slipped in, but

00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:56.449
yes, that's my kind of view of it. Yeah, well,

00:44:56.449 --> 00:44:59.070
and the other interesting, I think, I think about

00:44:59.070 --> 00:45:04.949
the the Locasenna is, you know, it has some of

00:45:04.949 --> 00:45:10.539
the most references to Loki and his stuff or

00:45:10.539 --> 00:45:17.920
his lore, but there's no place names throughout

00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:23.019
Scandinavia of Loki. Whereas the other gods and

00:45:23.019 --> 00:45:26.579
goddesses, I mean, and the ones you'd imagine,

00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:29.179
you know, Odin has a lot, Thor has a lot, but

00:45:29.179 --> 00:45:32.880
even Baldr has a couple of place names. Ullr

00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:37.050
actually has a lot of place names. which suggests

00:45:37.050 --> 00:45:39.789
maybe Ullr was more important in an earlier time

00:45:39.789 --> 00:45:43.230
than we're aware of, but at least as far as I'm

00:45:43.230 --> 00:45:46.289
aware with current research, there's not any

00:45:46.289 --> 00:45:50.750
place names for Loki. And so one of the theories

00:45:50.750 --> 00:45:56.070
about that is that there may not have been worship

00:45:56.070 --> 00:46:00.550
of Loki in the same way that we think of the

00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:05.110
pagan worship of... I mean, certainly Odin, but

00:46:05.110 --> 00:46:07.789
obviously Freyr, there's, you know, statues and

00:46:07.789 --> 00:46:12.090
references there, Thor, and several of the goddesses

00:46:12.090 --> 00:46:15.929
as well, especially, you know, Frigg and Freya.

00:46:18.110 --> 00:46:21.050
But, and this is a thing where, when you start

00:46:21.050 --> 00:46:24.110
talking about modern people that are really into

00:46:24.110 --> 00:46:27.130
Loki can get very upset, and it's not my intention

00:46:27.130 --> 00:46:31.230
to upset anyone or commentate on modern paganism,

00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:35.909
because modern paganism, is different. But one

00:46:35.909 --> 00:46:40.190
of the theories is that Loki existed primarily

00:46:40.190 --> 00:46:47.550
as a foil from a literature perspective. Because

00:46:47.550 --> 00:46:52.829
if you remove Loki from the literature of Norse

00:46:52.829 --> 00:46:57.289
mythology, the stories get boring pretty quickly.

00:46:58.789 --> 00:47:01.489
Because you need that guy who's messing stuff

00:47:01.489 --> 00:47:04.809
up. to create the situation that then needs to

00:47:04.809 --> 00:47:09.210
get fixed. And so, Loki ends up propelling most

00:47:09.210 --> 00:47:12.530
of the stories. So, one of the great questions

00:47:12.530 --> 00:47:16.070
is, when you have a literary figure like Loki

00:47:16.070 --> 00:47:18.650
that's referenced so many times throughout the

00:47:18.650 --> 00:47:23.670
writing, doesn't match with the religious figure

00:47:23.670 --> 00:47:27.349
of the other gods and goddesses, and how does

00:47:27.349 --> 00:47:31.389
that combine? There isn't an answer, is the truth

00:47:31.389 --> 00:47:33.849
of it. Is that something for our, you know, the

00:47:33.849 --> 00:47:36.289
listeners and the viewers can come to their own

00:47:36.289 --> 00:47:38.510
conclusions. I just think that's, I don't know,

00:47:38.510 --> 00:47:41.210
I think that's really neat. I also think it's

00:47:41.210 --> 00:47:47.309
partly why we find Loki so fascinating. It's

00:47:47.309 --> 00:47:51.309
because there's, you know, almost as much written

00:47:51.309 --> 00:47:57.630
about Loki as Thor or Odin. And yet there's this

00:47:57.630 --> 00:48:01.440
other question mark About you know who and and

00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:05.440
and why? Now it's less surprising to me why modern

00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:10.079
audiences find him so fascinating because modern

00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:16.239
life Morality is very is less black and white

00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:19.639
in that sense, but and part of that's because

00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:23.099
I mean, at the root of the Norse stories is tribalism.

00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:26.079
You know, it's the tribe of Asgard, even versus

00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.619
the Vanir in the beginning, but also versus the

00:48:29.619 --> 00:48:34.900
Jotuns and, you know, the outsiders. And so,

00:48:34.900 --> 00:48:39.420
you know, we, I mean, heck, we're talking across

00:48:39.420 --> 00:48:43.840
the pond, as folks say, now. But, you know, like,

00:48:43.940 --> 00:48:47.579
I don't think of, like, The american tribe really

00:48:47.579 --> 00:48:50.139
like I if I had to imagine my tribe, it might

00:48:50.139 --> 00:48:53.460
be my family But it certainly isn't all of the

00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:57.659
massive place that is uh america, right? um,

00:48:57.739 --> 00:49:02.719
so I I think that's why because We are so much

00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:07.260
more complex In terms of our interpersonal relationships

00:49:07.260 --> 00:49:09.139
and maybe complex isn't even the right word.

00:49:09.139 --> 00:49:13.139
It could just be confused You know, there's there's

00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:16.769
less signs of which team you play for in all

00:49:16.769 --> 00:49:19.489
these things. And so in that role, Loki, who

00:49:19.489 --> 00:49:23.269
is forever an outsider, but also blood brother

00:49:23.269 --> 00:49:26.030
to Odin and all of the, oh, that's another thing

00:49:26.030 --> 00:49:28.110
about the Locust Center. The Locust Center is

00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:32.369
the only book that has a reference to Odin and

00:49:32.369 --> 00:49:36.230
Loki being blood brothers to one another. And

00:49:36.230 --> 00:49:40.989
that's something that the rest of the lore obviously

00:49:40.989 --> 00:49:43.639
could ask the question. Why the heck do they

00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:49.940
tolerate Loki in all of his nonsense? But if

00:49:49.940 --> 00:49:52.900
the lokasuna is correct, perhaps that answers

00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:55.739
that question. Or again, maybe it was just one

00:49:55.739 --> 00:49:59.019
author wanting to answer that question because

00:49:59.019 --> 00:50:02.440
there wasn't an answer elsewhere. It's so easy

00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:06.440
for all of us just to devolve into a big question

00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:10.070
mark when you dig down deeper and deeper. Yeah,

00:50:10.090 --> 00:50:12.289
and I think you've made a lot of really good

00:50:12.289 --> 00:50:17.130
valid points there. I know certainly from discussions

00:50:17.130 --> 00:50:21.010
that I've had with Joanne Harris, author of Rune

00:50:21.010 --> 00:50:23.130
Marks and Rune Light, and of course Chocolat,

00:50:23.230 --> 00:50:25.349
but she's also really big in ternal mythology.

00:50:25.570 --> 00:50:28.789
I know she did study Old Norse for a couple of

00:50:28.789 --> 00:50:31.090
years, way, way, way back, well before Covid,

00:50:31.170 --> 00:50:33.469
so she might be more prolific at reading it than

00:50:33.469 --> 00:50:37.269
I am. But she's always described Loki as this

00:50:37.309 --> 00:50:40.170
kind of like the personification of otherness,

00:50:40.690 --> 00:50:45.010
the stranger, the outsider. Certainly kind of,

00:50:45.030 --> 00:50:46.829
as you say, with the Isaiah versus the Vanir

00:50:46.829 --> 00:50:48.969
war, they kind of like amalgamated into one,

00:50:49.030 --> 00:50:50.630
so they don't really see each other as different

00:50:50.630 --> 00:50:53.909
anymore, because one won, one lost. Whereas Loki

00:50:53.909 --> 00:50:57.420
is almost like that. that travelling tradesman

00:50:57.420 --> 00:50:59.380
that you keep meeting that always seems to have

00:50:59.380 --> 00:51:01.099
something that you need or something that you

00:51:01.099 --> 00:51:03.760
want or causes a problem that you then have to

00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:07.519
buy something from him. He's always got that

00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:09.360
almost like that as you say kind of like he's

00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:13.099
not just adding to the narrative but he's also

00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:15.980
of course, creating problems and then being the

00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:17.800
one that's able to fix them. So it's almost like

00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:19.699
a con artist in a way, kind of like he comes

00:51:19.699 --> 00:51:21.500
his way into their lives and kind of like causes

00:51:21.500 --> 00:51:24.380
a case, like, oh, I can sort that out for you.

00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:27.420
And you just touched on something there that

00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:32.159
applies to most creative people as well, where

00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:35.840
especially when we are young, we often end up

00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:41.199
as an outsider, you know, not being popular in

00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:46.730
high school or You know growing up and so I know

00:51:46.730 --> 00:51:51.510
I often felt like I was You know kind of accepted

00:51:51.510 --> 00:51:55.070
but still on the outside and and when you are

00:51:55.070 --> 00:52:00.489
an outsider you observe culture and That's what

00:52:00.489 --> 00:52:04.010
allows you to create art later on that That's

00:52:04.010 --> 00:52:07.769
a commentary on those things. And so I think

00:52:07.769 --> 00:52:11.550
that could also be another Connective thread

00:52:11.550 --> 00:52:17.219
to Loki because I think even earlier I couldn't

00:52:17.219 --> 00:52:21.880
describe what my tribe was. So perhaps a lot

00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:26.880
of people feel like wayward children and Loki

00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:33.159
is the ultimate lost son who is never accepted

00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:40.760
by any of the tribes. So it's not hard to imagine

00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:44.989
why Some people would feel very strongly connected

00:52:44.989 --> 00:52:47.889
to that in the same way that I don't know when

00:52:47.889 --> 00:52:52.769
I when I interact with Modern pagans I can within

00:52:52.769 --> 00:52:55.050
a you know five ten minutes of conversation I

00:52:55.050 --> 00:52:57.570
can use with men anyways I can usually guess

00:52:57.570 --> 00:53:00.730
whether they're more into Thor or more into Odin

00:53:00.730 --> 00:53:03.530
and you know it usually leans one way or another

00:53:03.530 --> 00:53:07.050
and it's partly because They sort of personify

00:53:07.050 --> 00:53:11.179
one of those two Figures in themselves and therefore

00:53:11.179 --> 00:53:14.619
feel that connection So if more of us are outsiders,

00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:16.579
then it would make sense that more of us are

00:53:16.579 --> 00:53:20.840
connected to Loki than ever before Mm -hmm. Yes,

00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.900
that's a really good point. There's many stages

00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:26.710
in our life growing up where we have to kind

00:53:26.710 --> 00:53:29.550
of find their solo independence like for me it

00:53:29.550 --> 00:53:32.030
was always I started primary school on my own

00:53:32.030 --> 00:53:33.869
being the first born then had that second school

00:53:33.869 --> 00:53:35.809
on my own, started college on my own, started

00:53:35.809 --> 00:53:38.929
university on my own so I'm always having to

00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:41.289
reform my tribe and now I'm just doing it globally

00:53:41.289 --> 00:53:43.269
by interviewing lots of people on a podcast but

00:53:43.269 --> 00:53:48.949
there we go. But yeah, certainly thinking back

00:53:48.949 --> 00:53:51.690
to Joanne Harris and Herbie on it, in her fantasy

00:53:51.690 --> 00:53:55.750
books, Rude Marks and Rune Lights, Loki is very

00:53:55.750 --> 00:53:59.070
much a figure of chaos because there is this

00:53:59.070 --> 00:54:03.130
overwhelming force of order which is actually

00:54:03.130 --> 00:54:05.929
seen and depicted in a very negative way. Spoiler,

00:54:06.210 --> 00:54:08.289
it's run by Mimir, the head. Mimir's head is

00:54:08.289 --> 00:54:10.380
conniving against the... climbing against Odin

00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:13.619
by making kind of like a church -like establishment,

00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:16.760
take over the folk that used to believe in these

00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:20.440
old tales and Odin, Thor and Loki and their kind

00:54:20.440 --> 00:54:23.539
of like more human guises have to try and combat

00:54:23.539 --> 00:54:26.239
these forces, runes and magic. It's just a wonderful

00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:28.659
duology. I always hope she'd do a third one,

00:54:28.820 --> 00:54:30.880
because it never quite panned out. Although she

00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:32.860
did then write her own Locke Center in a way,

00:54:32.900 --> 00:54:36.179
which is called... Oh, where is it? It's on my

00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:39.639
shelf. That's it. the Gospel of Loki and then

00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:42.019
she wrote the Testament of Loki as a sequel to

00:54:42.019 --> 00:54:45.679
it. I've heard of those books for sure. They're

00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:48.679
a really good read. I think it's certainly interesting

00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:51.400
because the way it's all written is in first

00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:53.639
person so it's Loki speaking from the word go

00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:57.539
and of course Loki speaking but it's really John

00:54:57.539 --> 00:55:00.760
Harris speaking and they kind of discuss how

00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:05.019
history can be interpreted as his story. It's

00:55:05.019 --> 00:55:08.460
kind of like you need her story or my story,

00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:10.760
which is a mystery. Which I thought, oh, that's

00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:12.960
a really clever play on words and really reflects

00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:16.019
about Loki's actual figure. That is a mystery.

00:55:16.659 --> 00:55:18.760
No one really knows which side he's on. No one

00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:21.440
really knows his motives, his goals. And I think

00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.980
that's really been explored a lot in certain

00:55:24.980 --> 00:55:27.539
modern media, such as kind of like the Loki series,

00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:29.820
which I've only recently binged a couple of weeks

00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:32.670
ago and absolutely loved. And I hope he comes

00:55:32.670 --> 00:55:34.510
back somewhere in the Marvel Universe because

00:55:34.510 --> 00:55:38.550
I think that'd be brilliant. But of course, in,

00:55:38.550 --> 00:55:42.309
what was I going to say? There was another animation

00:55:42.309 --> 00:55:47.090
series that came out last spring called Twilight

00:55:47.090 --> 00:55:49.110
of the Gods. Twilight of the Guards on Netflix,

00:55:49.590 --> 00:55:53.900
yeah. Yes. in that series I was very impressed

00:55:53.900 --> 00:55:55.980
with that depiction because that presented to

00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:57.900
him with a whole different motive, a whole different

00:55:57.900 --> 00:56:00.480
side and there's a whole episode when I think

00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:03.519
they are in Ulla's head because Ulla's head is

00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:07.420
a magical mind field basically and they keep

00:56:07.420 --> 00:56:10.179
seeing each other's past and regrets and Loki's

00:56:10.179 --> 00:56:12.420
is all about his kids and he's like gosh he's

00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:15.139
never actually been focused on as a father character

00:56:15.139 --> 00:56:17.900
and that he's not wanting to kill Odin out of

00:56:17.900 --> 00:56:19.500
spite he's wanting to kill Odin because he knows

00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:21.699
Odin will do this knew all these things to his

00:56:21.699 --> 00:56:24.179
kids. And I thought that was really, really fascinating.

00:56:25.300 --> 00:56:27.579
And I was quite impressed with that take. I don't

00:56:27.579 --> 00:56:29.480
know if it'll ever come back for a second series.

00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:31.760
They kind of left it on a really odd ending.

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:34.900
But again, there's an episode of that, me reviewing

00:56:34.900 --> 00:56:36.579
it with some other guests. So if you want to

00:56:36.579 --> 00:56:38.280
go listen to viewers and listeners, please do.

00:56:38.380 --> 00:56:40.340
I'll go watch it first on Netflix, and then go

00:56:40.340 --> 00:56:42.699
watch that episode. Just so you don't spoil it

00:56:42.699 --> 00:56:46.019
for you. But yes, I really enjoyed that series.

00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:50.280
It has a lot. to say especially of course about

00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:53.460
Thor, who is depicted as an antagonist more than

00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:59.760
a hero character. But yes, Loki. There is one

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:01.280
thing I wanted to bring up because I thought

00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:03.920
this will be really, this will wow everyone who's

00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:06.920
watching and listening. It'll be their fact drop

00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:08.719
next time at the dinner table with their mates

00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:11.960
or in the pub. There's a wonderful bit in the

00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:14.039
Loki Center where I can't remember which god

00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:15.780
or goddess referred to. I think it might have

00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:19.010
been Odin or Himdal. one of the male ones that

00:57:19.010 --> 00:57:23.809
they tell about Loki being a milkmaid, attending

00:57:23.809 --> 00:57:26.530
a cow for so many years. Please elaborate on

00:57:26.530 --> 00:57:29.829
that for us. Yeah, so that drawing was super

00:57:29.829 --> 00:57:36.929
fun to make. But yeah, it's again, in the way

00:57:36.929 --> 00:57:40.429
the male gods usually go in the Locust Center,

00:57:41.010 --> 00:57:44.679
Odin is saying that Loki is unmanly. And his

00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:48.539
proof of that is the seven years he spent being

00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:53.639
a milkmaid, I think for one of the giants. And

00:57:53.639 --> 00:57:57.860
that's it. He references it in a way that implies

00:57:57.860 --> 00:58:03.019
there's a much bigger story. And it's stated

00:58:03.019 --> 00:58:07.179
so matter of factly that the audience surely

00:58:07.179 --> 00:58:11.159
was aware of this other story that it would be

00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:14.239
so commonplace. that there was no need to explain

00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:18.059
it. But as modern people, that story of Loki

00:58:18.059 --> 00:58:21.800
the milkmaid is completely lost aside from this

00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:29.679
one poem. And then back and forth, Loki then

00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:33.500
challenges Odin's manliness by pointing out that

00:58:33.500 --> 00:58:38.300
Odin wore women's clothing, which is one of the

00:58:38.300 --> 00:58:41.159
common tales about like Odin didn't just learn

00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:45.599
magic, he actually learned women's magic as well

00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:50.619
as the magic that was for men. And in order to

00:58:50.619 --> 00:58:55.460
do that, he did wear the ritual garb of a lady

00:58:55.460 --> 00:59:01.699
seer or a vulva or a witch, depending on your

00:59:01.699 --> 00:59:05.900
nomenclature there. But yeah, but that's it.

00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:13.300
I wish there was more I could go into. But yeah,

00:59:13.460 --> 00:59:17.980
it is such a funny little line of Loki the milkmaid

00:59:17.980 --> 00:59:22.400
and gosh talk about a story I would love to hear

00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:26.719
more of because I mean it makes you wonder too

00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:33.400
like how could Loki be trapped for so long because

00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:35.960
you know, he's a shape shifter and he's always

00:59:35.960 --> 00:59:38.300
he's got let me have like shoes that let him

00:59:38.300 --> 00:59:41.500
fly or something too or He you know, he has some

00:59:41.500 --> 00:59:43.719
sort of magic slippers if I remember correctly

00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:48.440
and uh, he could you know, uh hide or turn invisible

00:59:48.440 --> 00:59:51.280
or even I mean in in the mjolnir story He turns

00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:55.119
into a fly or a gnat and he you know bites the

00:59:55.119 --> 00:59:57.539
the dwarves that are making the hammer So if

00:59:57.539 --> 01:00:00.219
he could do all that shape shifting and get so

01:00:00.219 --> 01:00:04.590
small How is it that he ended up in this position?

01:00:04.969 --> 01:00:07.250
Or, I mean, I don't know, maybe he lost a bet

01:00:07.250 --> 01:00:09.449
and so he had to become a milkmaid because he

01:00:09.449 --> 01:00:12.130
lost a bet. I mean, he's certainly a gambling

01:00:12.130 --> 01:00:18.050
man throughout the legends. But yeah, we will

01:00:18.050 --> 01:00:22.429
sadly never know any more than that one little

01:00:22.429 --> 01:00:26.190
back and forth with Odin where he says, yeah,

01:00:26.250 --> 01:00:30.739
you're unmanly because you're a milkmaid. Well

01:00:30.739 --> 01:00:32.980
it certainly makes me think because like we've

01:00:32.980 --> 01:00:35.139
discussed the lay of thrim where he very clearly

01:00:35.139 --> 01:00:38.519
changes his gender and his shape and form and

01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:40.760
so with this milkmaid, because he doesn't take

01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:42.940
kind of like milk servant which could be more

01:00:42.940 --> 01:00:45.099
ambiguous, he says milk maid which is definitely

01:00:45.099 --> 01:00:48.559
the feminine word so it's kind of like are those

01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:51.340
two really the only references of Loki changing

01:00:51.340 --> 01:00:54.199
gender that you've come across because they're

01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:56.119
the only two that I can think of off the top

01:00:56.119 --> 01:00:58.659
of my head. Because I don't think in any of his

01:00:58.659 --> 01:01:01.599
other adventures he changed gender. Yeah, one

01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:03.400
other time, and you're going to know it the minute

01:01:03.400 --> 01:01:08.739
I say it, he turns into a female horse. Oh gosh,

01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:13.639
yes. Sorry. That's why I used the original gender

01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:16.960
fluid term because Loki's always turning into

01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:20.400
a lady to solve problems when it suits him. So

01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:22.780
yeah, he turns into the lady horse to get the

01:01:22.780 --> 01:01:25.039
other horse slurred away and then ends up giving

01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:31.699
birth to Odin's horse Slepnir. So yeah. I was

01:01:31.699 --> 01:01:34.300
thinking one homo sapien term is one of the animal

01:01:34.300 --> 01:01:36.219
terms but yes you're quite right it's a female

01:01:36.219 --> 01:01:41.280
horse but a male. Yeah yeah a female horse in

01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:45.699
heat. Yes yes I don't know why you just didn't

01:01:45.699 --> 01:01:47.539
become a stallion and just fight and bite the

01:01:47.539 --> 01:01:49.639
other stallion like stallions actually do but

01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:53.119
there we go. hindsight is a wonderful thing and

01:01:53.119 --> 01:01:56.980
you're not the person involved useful for anything

01:01:56.980 --> 01:02:03.360
um but yeah it's it's fascinating kind of like

01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:07.639
how much there may have been known or told about

01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:09.880
all these girls and of course Loki in particular

01:02:10.670 --> 01:02:12.789
Because the other thing I find interesting about

01:02:12.789 --> 01:02:14.269
Loki, and again it's something I only learnt

01:02:14.269 --> 01:02:16.829
when I was speaking to Joanne Harris about North

01:02:16.829 --> 01:02:19.610
Swiss in general in fantasy fiction, and how

01:02:19.610 --> 01:02:22.409
both she and Caroline Larrington, an Amaretta's

01:02:22.409 --> 01:02:27.389
professor at Oxford, both pointed out that Loki's

01:02:27.389 --> 01:02:30.610
surname isn't a son name, it's a daughter's name,

01:02:30.670 --> 01:02:36.449
so he's got the mother's name then son, more

01:02:36.449 --> 01:02:38.449
than kind of his father's name then son, so he's

01:02:38.449 --> 01:02:42.320
not Loki. I can't remember his actual father's

01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:47.360
name. But it's Loki Lofi's son, so it's Lofi's

01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:50.400
son, not a male name. Yeah, and Lofi is a female.

01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:54.260
Yep, that's right, Lofi is his mother's. Yeah,

01:02:54.380 --> 01:02:59.519
yeah. Well, and then, I mean, there's a lot of

01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:03.840
cross -dressing and references to it, not just

01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:07.659
in the locus sena, but throughout Norse mythology,

01:03:07.699 --> 01:03:13.219
but also through the sagas. And of course, the

01:03:13.219 --> 01:03:17.059
Icelandic law, one of the reasons a woman could

01:03:17.059 --> 01:03:20.840
divorce a man was if he was wearing women's clothing.

01:03:22.820 --> 01:03:29.460
And so, yeah, I mean, obviously, it was certainly

01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:33.780
a part of their culture in some way. And it could

01:03:33.780 --> 01:03:38.280
just be as simple as... We talked about Monty

01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:40.980
Python earlier, but how many hilarious sketches

01:03:40.980 --> 01:03:43.559
are there where they put on women's clothing

01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:47.920
and act like old British ladies? It's really

01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:52.519
funny to see a guy dressed up as a gal and acting

01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:56.420
ridiculous. Maybe it's just as simple as that.

01:03:57.400 --> 01:04:02.869
Again, if you imagine it as a play. If you imagine

01:04:02.869 --> 01:04:06.250
that the female characters were played by men

01:04:06.250 --> 01:04:10.829
We don't know if the women were a part of it

01:04:10.829 --> 01:04:13.710
or able to recite poetry that's but we know in

01:04:13.710 --> 01:04:16.969
other cultures I mean it certainly in a Chinese

01:04:16.969 --> 01:04:20.510
culture or I think Japanese culture a lot of

01:04:20.510 --> 01:04:25.880
the Asian cultures had the tradition of certain

01:04:25.880 --> 01:04:28.659
female characters being portrayed by men who

01:04:28.659 --> 01:04:32.800
were wearing the various makeup and all of that

01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:38.059
stuff. Who knows? What we do know is that there's

01:04:38.059 --> 01:04:40.360
a lot of references to men in women's clothing.

01:04:41.820 --> 01:04:45.260
Yes, I remember reading about Icelandic law and

01:04:45.260 --> 01:04:46.880
absolutely loving it. But of course, who makes

01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:49.340
the most clothing? It's the women. So they could

01:04:49.340 --> 01:04:52.079
do it on the QT and then get their husband to

01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:55.019
be divorced e out into the outings public like

01:04:55.019 --> 01:04:57.440
hey guy Where you do shirt to work? He's wearing

01:04:57.440 --> 01:05:01.139
a feminine collar We talked about this last time,

01:05:01.139 --> 01:05:04.559
but I I know that one of the other laws is The

01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:08.699
the if the man didn't measure up in the downstairs

01:05:08.699 --> 01:05:13.840
department Yeah, that was another thing but she

01:05:13.840 --> 01:05:17.119
she had to prove it in whatever their version

01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:20.780
of a court of law was. And so I don't even know

01:05:20.780 --> 01:05:27.719
how that worked. But yes, if the member was below

01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:32.079
a certain measurement, she was allowed to divorce

01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:37.920
him. Which I suppose also gets into the various

01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:43.639
thoughts on unmanliness. No, that's a really

01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:46.340
interesting point. It certainly makes me think

01:05:46.340 --> 01:05:49.320
to a new computer game that's coming out in February

01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:52.440
next year called Norse Oath of Blood. I've got

01:05:52.440 --> 01:05:54.780
a particular interest because the entire narrative

01:05:54.780 --> 01:05:57.320
is written by one of my top favourite Viking

01:05:57.320 --> 01:06:00.480
authors called Giles Christian and he does a

01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:03.400
mean epic Viking historical fiction. He's written

01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:06.679
six, a trilogy and then a sequel trilogy and

01:06:06.679 --> 01:06:09.400
they're awesome. And I've been playing the demo

01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:12.400
recently and in the demo you meet two NPC characters,

01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:14.820
a farmer and his wife known as the seamstress.

01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:17.860
And the witty insults that they exchange are

01:06:17.860 --> 01:06:19.900
very much like a flighting without it being an

01:06:19.900 --> 01:06:22.769
actual declared flighting hatch. And she's like,

01:06:22.829 --> 01:06:24.650
oh, let's welcome these brave warriors. Look,

01:06:24.710 --> 01:06:26.889
they've got tall spears that we can use to protect

01:06:26.889 --> 01:06:30.030
ourselves. Ha ha, hee hee, wink wink. And she's

01:06:30.030 --> 01:06:31.889
like, what's wrong with my spear? It just needs

01:06:31.889 --> 01:06:33.989
a bit of tender care and repair. And she's like,

01:06:34.050 --> 01:06:38.070
oh, yes, but it's old, darling. Everyone knows

01:06:38.070 --> 01:06:40.230
what they're talking about. It's so obvious.

01:06:40.670 --> 01:06:43.190
But yeah, it's so badly hidden. And it's just,

01:06:43.210 --> 01:06:45.630
I just want to play the whole game just for those

01:06:45.630 --> 01:06:47.889
two. It just sounds like a comedy from start

01:06:47.889 --> 01:06:51.869
to finish. So yes, but that's why I love Giles

01:06:51.869 --> 01:06:53.730
Christian writing because he really brings the

01:06:53.730 --> 01:06:56.289
humanity completely out to the front. He doesn't

01:06:56.289 --> 01:06:58.489
hide it behind like, yes, he's the wife, he does

01:06:58.489 --> 01:07:01.550
this, he's the farmer, he does that. Relationships

01:07:01.550 --> 01:07:04.250
don't always get along and I absolutely love

01:07:04.250 --> 01:07:06.670
these two because it's an old couple. I think

01:07:06.670 --> 01:07:09.769
that also touches on another thing of why stories

01:07:09.769 --> 01:07:13.449
like the Locust Center are so appealing is it

01:07:13.449 --> 01:07:18.349
doesn't read like it takes itself overly serious.

01:07:19.329 --> 01:07:24.150
You know, it reads as this sort of verbal wordplay.

01:07:24.769 --> 01:07:27.309
And so it, I don't know, to me, it feels fun

01:07:27.309 --> 01:07:31.510
to read, even though it's, you know, archaic

01:07:31.510 --> 01:07:35.130
literature, you know, it's quite, it's very different

01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:37.429
than say like reading Beowulf, which is, you

01:07:37.429 --> 01:07:40.489
know, like this epic poem that's, that's, you

01:07:40.489 --> 01:07:46.079
know, tonally just very intense. The Locus Senna

01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:48.900
is not that. The other thing I wonder reading

01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:58.019
the Locus Senna is Loki has, well according to

01:07:58.019 --> 01:08:01.719
Loki in the Locus Senna, he's slept with almost

01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:07.219
all of the goddesses. And so, but the big ones

01:08:07.219 --> 01:08:12.380
there that always made me wonder is Sif, Thor's

01:08:12.380 --> 01:08:17.689
wife. and then Scotty or Scotty depending on

01:08:17.689 --> 01:08:21.670
and the reason those are interesting to me is

01:08:21.670 --> 01:08:26.289
because the story where with the hammer begins

01:08:26.289 --> 01:08:31.250
with Sif having her head shaved or you know losing

01:08:31.250 --> 01:08:36.449
her golden hair and it was a punishment in their

01:08:36.449 --> 01:08:42.649
culture that if a woman was found to be adulterous

01:08:42.840 --> 01:08:46.340
that she would get her head shaved. And so it

01:08:46.340 --> 01:08:49.420
was an embarrassing thing to have to endure not

01:08:49.420 --> 01:08:53.239
having hair. And in the story, you know, Thor

01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:55.279
is worried about this. So he's like, you got

01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:57.500
to get her new hair. So she eventually gets the

01:08:57.500 --> 01:09:01.039
gold hair and yada, yada, yada. But the story

01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:03.300
doesn't specifically say this, but there is an

01:09:03.300 --> 01:09:06.939
implication there that, you know, if Loki is

01:09:06.939 --> 01:09:11.789
the one to remove her hair, that could be much

01:09:11.789 --> 01:09:14.369
like the Spears we were talking about earlier,

01:09:14.630 --> 01:09:16.770
could actually be a reference to something else

01:09:16.770 --> 01:09:20.729
entirely that we as modern audiences are less

01:09:20.729 --> 01:09:25.810
aware of, that we are less aware of, but that

01:09:25.810 --> 01:09:29.369
the time it would have been told, everyone listening

01:09:29.369 --> 01:09:31.710
would have sort of nodded along with a smirk

01:09:31.710 --> 01:09:34.430
going, oh, I know what that means. And so the

01:09:34.430 --> 01:09:38.109
Locus Sena sort of implies or doesn't imply it

01:09:38.109 --> 01:09:42.060
outright says that That's what happened there.

01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:45.920
So that that makes me wonder and then the relationship

01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:49.020
with scotty is even more interesting because

01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:53.039
she's the one who places the snake above Loki's

01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:58.699
head and But going back Loki's the one who makes

01:09:58.699 --> 01:10:02.979
her laugh for the first time Yeah, yes, right

01:10:02.979 --> 01:10:05.800
in the story where yeah, she comes down. She's

01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:08.180
mad about Thor killed her father. She demands

01:10:08.180 --> 01:10:12.340
wear guild so on and so forth. And, you know,

01:10:12.619 --> 01:10:15.579
it definitely, the stories imply that her marriage

01:10:15.579 --> 01:10:21.199
with Njord is not a very happy one. They both

01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:25.600
seem pretty miserable with it. And so it's, you

01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:29.979
know, it's easy to imagine, you know, a goddess

01:10:29.979 --> 01:10:33.420
who's not happy with her marriage and here's

01:10:33.420 --> 01:10:36.119
this guy who made her laugh and he's so funny.

01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:39.159
And I don't know, there's something about the

01:10:39.159 --> 01:10:45.920
Skadi and Loki connection that the Lokasenna

01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:51.180
implies has a much deeper thing there. But again,

01:10:51.720 --> 01:10:54.979
unless we discover some other ancient text that's

01:10:54.979 --> 01:10:58.380
been hidden away, it's very unlikely that we

01:10:58.380 --> 01:11:01.039
ever get an answer to that particular question.

01:11:02.220 --> 01:11:04.520
Something I've never actually picked up on before,

01:11:04.659 --> 01:11:07.300
but I certainly will. try and read the Locust

01:11:07.300 --> 01:11:08.819
Ender myself at some point because I believe

01:11:08.819 --> 01:11:11.920
I've got Caroline Larrington's translation. Yeah.

01:11:12.859 --> 01:11:15.600
Because of course, Skadi is a giantess, she's

01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:17.699
not Azir, she's not Minir and she comes into

01:11:17.699 --> 01:11:20.920
this whole clam because of the death of her father.

01:11:21.539 --> 01:11:24.359
She has to marry Baldr the Beautiful but I think

01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:26.520
it was, was it Loki? Well it probably was Loki,

01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:28.119
I'm just gonna say probably because it usually

01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.199
is. Well it's a clever idea, it's usually Loki's.

01:11:31.260 --> 01:11:33.899
apart from him now has the odd one. And that

01:11:33.899 --> 01:11:35.399
says, oh no, don't let her pick Baldur, just

01:11:35.399 --> 01:11:37.939
disguise everyone, like we're on blind date.

01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:42.119
It's Odin. Oh, was it Odin? Ah, Odin sometimes

01:11:42.119 --> 01:11:44.020
does have good ideas, do I suppose. I mean, he

01:11:44.020 --> 01:11:47.779
brought Loki in, so. Just disguise everyone behind

01:11:47.779 --> 01:11:50.000
the curtain, and she can only pick by their feet.

01:11:50.579 --> 01:11:51.979
But then, of course, the other part is, of course,

01:11:52.119 --> 01:11:53.680
she also wants to be made laugh, because she's

01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:55.779
miserable and distraught, and of course, Loki

01:11:55.779 --> 01:11:58.460
does this. And I kid you not, dear viewers and

01:11:58.460 --> 01:12:01.260
listeners, he ties his testicles to a goat, and

01:12:01.260 --> 01:12:03.439
he makes therefore the goat pull in one direction,

01:12:03.579 --> 01:12:06.180
and Loki's therefore being told quite forcefully

01:12:06.180 --> 01:12:12.279
in the opposite. So I do a monthly hangout with

01:12:12.279 --> 01:12:16.460
my patrons on Patreon, and ever since I told

01:12:16.460 --> 01:12:19.739
that story in one of our hangouts, Every session,

01:12:19.760 --> 01:12:23.340
they ask me if my next painting is going to be

01:12:23.340 --> 01:12:26.979
Loki and the Goat is what they call the painting.

01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:31.260
To date, I have no plans of doing that particular

01:12:31.260 --> 01:12:37.640
painting, but they like to tease me about it

01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:43.600
quite a bit. Here's the line that Loki says.

01:12:43.920 --> 01:12:46.600
uh in the lokasenna and this is i'm i'm working

01:12:46.600 --> 01:12:51.300
off of the bellows translation um and so uh loki

01:12:51.300 --> 01:12:55.739
responds to scotty and he says more lightly thou

01:12:55.739 --> 01:12:58.479
speakest with laufy's son of course we referenced

01:12:58.479 --> 01:13:02.020
that earlier when thou baddest me come to thy

01:13:02.020 --> 01:13:06.159
bed so according to loki she's the one who invited

01:13:06.159 --> 01:13:11.020
him into her bed And he says, such things must

01:13:11.020 --> 01:13:15.039
be known if now we too shall seek our sins to

01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:21.359
tell. And so after that, Skadi backs away and

01:13:21.359 --> 01:13:26.720
Sif steps forward to defend Skadi. But anyway,

01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:30.319
yeah, I mean, there's clearly something there.

01:13:32.739 --> 01:13:37.069
But again, we don't know if it's just Loki. boasting

01:13:37.069 --> 01:13:40.829
or making mischief or you know, and of course,

01:13:40.949 --> 01:13:48.270
I mean throughout time You know you using a woman's

01:13:48.270 --> 01:13:51.729
Promiscuity there are many such stories where

01:13:51.729 --> 01:13:55.550
in in grade school or high school a girl gets

01:13:55.550 --> 01:14:00.239
inaccurately labeled with that moniker and it

01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:03.359
ruins her reputation so it could be as simple

01:14:03.359 --> 01:14:06.500
as that it could be Loki just ruining reputations

01:14:06.500 --> 01:14:10.359
in order to win an argument but maybe there's

01:14:10.359 --> 01:14:13.840
something else there and you know we we just

01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:17.100
don't get to know He certainly does express a

01:14:17.100 --> 01:14:19.319
lot of knowledge about what all these ladies

01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:22.140
get up to. Yes, he does. Makes me wonder, is

01:14:22.140 --> 01:14:24.300
he the fly on the wall in all the rooms, quite

01:14:24.300 --> 01:14:26.439
literally, because we know he can transform into

01:14:26.439 --> 01:14:32.359
a fly. Yeah, yeah, fly, spider, hawk, a seal.

01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:40.220
He is quite a lot of creatures. Yeah, but again,

01:14:40.659 --> 01:14:46.720
while it's really fun to you know, imagine and

01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:52.880
try to get deeper in there. There's no other

01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:55.979
reference to this relationship. In fact, it's

01:14:55.979 --> 01:15:02.439
in the Lokasenna at the end. They capture Loki,

01:15:02.619 --> 01:15:05.260
place him beneath the earth and set up the whole

01:15:05.260 --> 01:15:09.220
torture snake face thing. I think it's only in

01:15:09.220 --> 01:15:12.600
the Lokasenna that it references Skadi. being

01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:17.359
the one to place the snake over his head. The

01:15:17.359 --> 01:15:23.060
other version of that story is in the prose and

01:15:23.060 --> 01:15:27.579
Snorri, there's a few details that are different.

01:15:29.500 --> 01:15:33.939
Also, in the Locus Senna, so in the Snorri version,

01:15:34.359 --> 01:15:37.039
it implies that it's discovering the death of

01:15:37.039 --> 01:15:40.069
Balder and Loki's responsibility there. that

01:15:40.069 --> 01:15:42.750
leads the gods to go and capture Loki. You know,

01:15:42.750 --> 01:15:44.850
he runs away, turns into a salmon, they catch

01:15:44.850 --> 01:15:48.729
him with a net, yadda yadda yadda. But in the

01:15:48.729 --> 01:15:53.850
Lokasenna version, it's because they're so mad

01:15:53.850 --> 01:15:58.050
about everything he said in Aegir's hall during

01:15:58.050 --> 01:16:02.130
this battle of wits that they just get fed up

01:16:02.130 --> 01:16:05.579
with him. But... Also in the Locust Center as

01:16:05.579 --> 01:16:08.520
I mentioned earlier he does admit to killing

01:16:08.520 --> 01:16:13.279
Balder so Again, we with mythology. It's a little

01:16:13.279 --> 01:16:17.060
In and out you never quite know which myth happens

01:16:17.060 --> 01:16:21.199
before But you know what we do know is that Thor

01:16:21.199 --> 01:16:24.659
has Mjolnir so it's it's after that story and

01:16:24.659 --> 01:16:29.300
they reference Balder being dead and Balder is

01:16:29.300 --> 01:16:34.279
not in He's not one of the gods gathering, so

01:16:34.279 --> 01:16:38.020
it would be easy to imagine that it happens after

01:16:38.020 --> 01:16:42.060
that event. So if all that is true, then the

01:16:42.060 --> 01:16:46.100
Locus Senna happens quite late in the myth cycle

01:16:46.100 --> 01:16:50.800
as it exists. But they're always referencing

01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:55.640
Ragnarok as a thing that's going to happen, and

01:16:55.640 --> 01:16:57.859
so there's also that question of like... Has

01:16:57.859 --> 01:17:00.579
Ragnarok already happened? Is it going to happen?

01:17:00.659 --> 01:17:04.039
When does it happen? And so the timing isn't

01:17:04.039 --> 01:17:09.439
as clear for all that stuff. But anyway, yeah,

01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:12.439
so the difference in the ending with Scotty placing

01:17:12.439 --> 01:17:15.460
the snake above his head, I always thought was

01:17:15.460 --> 01:17:20.319
was interesting. And she is a bit of a figure,

01:17:20.319 --> 01:17:22.720
you know, who's I don't know, she seems like

01:17:22.720 --> 01:17:24.560
a lady you don't want to mess with. You know,

01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:28.579
I mean, it had to be quite gutsy to go into Asgard

01:17:28.579 --> 01:17:31.460
and demand payment for the death of her father

01:17:31.460 --> 01:17:35.779
from this opposing tribe. She was originally

01:17:35.779 --> 01:17:38.399
of the Giants, and after she gets married to

01:17:38.399 --> 01:17:41.060
Njord, she's treated as a goddess, and some would

01:17:41.060 --> 01:17:45.600
say she becomes a goddess in that moment. But

01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:50.600
again, while it's really fun to imagine and talk

01:17:50.600 --> 01:17:53.239
about all this, there's never... There's never

01:17:53.239 --> 01:17:56.100
a satisfying answer at the end of all this. It's

01:17:56.100 --> 01:18:01.539
always just, again, more questions. It certainly

01:18:01.539 --> 01:18:04.399
makes me think, of course, if he did have that

01:18:04.399 --> 01:18:07.439
fling with Scabbie, he does, of course, in late,

01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.399
I'm more familiar with it kind of like being

01:18:09.399 --> 01:18:11.560
from the Prose Edda more than the Poetics. Of

01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:13.619
course, he then eventually has his fling with

01:18:13.619 --> 01:18:16.800
Agnus Abroda. or some people say she's also Gulbeg

01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:19.880
Haid, but with a different name. And of course

01:18:19.880 --> 01:18:22.079
that's how he has his monstrous children, Hel,

01:18:22.239 --> 01:18:24.680
who's half dead, Fenrir, the wolf, and Jormagan,

01:18:24.899 --> 01:18:28.800
the serpent. But he does also have a wife, a

01:18:28.800 --> 01:18:35.180
much forgotten wife, called Sigyn. Sigyn, yes.

01:18:35.699 --> 01:18:39.439
Sigyn is from something else entirely, and he

01:18:39.439 --> 01:18:45.840
has two sons with her. who is that is it valley

01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:51.500
and gnarly is it gnarly yes it's only gnarly

01:18:51.500 --> 01:18:54.399
that sounds like sounds right gnarly n -a -r

01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:59.359
-f -i gnarly yeah yeah and um yeah the the bowel

01:18:59.359 --> 01:19:03.180
the bowels of valley are are used and gnarly

01:19:03.180 --> 01:19:06.460
is the one who gets turned into a wolf all while

01:19:06.460 --> 01:19:10.609
sigin has to look on which i've actually um Almost

01:19:10.609 --> 01:19:13.489
gosh over a decade ago. I was commissioned to

01:19:13.489 --> 01:19:18.630
do a full oil painting of that scene Which is

01:19:18.630 --> 01:19:21.829
when I first researched that so on on my website

01:19:21.829 --> 01:19:24.489
Fateful signs comm if you click on the Viking

01:19:24.489 --> 01:19:27.409
art section and scroll down I have a painting

01:19:27.409 --> 01:19:30.949
called the binding of Loki that shows the whole

01:19:30.949 --> 01:19:34.489
scene and I have Sijin standing over to the side

01:19:34.489 --> 01:19:38.479
holding a bowl and Odin is Pulling a knot into

01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:41.439
the intestines and Thor is holding Loki down

01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:45.020
But scotty is in the background placing a snake

01:19:45.020 --> 01:19:50.239
up in into the ceiling there. So Yeah, it's it's

01:19:50.239 --> 01:19:56.180
a it's an intense scene And you know, I know

01:19:56.180 --> 01:19:59.140
a lot a lot of people feel like the punishment

01:19:59.140 --> 01:20:05.300
doesn't fit the crime With all that but I also

01:20:05.300 --> 01:20:08.859
think that, again, it's one of those things where,

01:20:08.979 --> 01:20:13.060
as modern people, certain parts of the story

01:20:13.060 --> 01:20:16.600
don't feel the same, and one of the things we

01:20:16.600 --> 01:20:22.500
lack is that Loki's actions wouldn't have just

01:20:22.500 --> 01:20:27.039
been on himself, but his descendants would bear

01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:31.199
the pain. I mean, you see that with... Eric the

01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:34.960
Red in the Icelandic sagas and you know his children

01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:38.640
having to deal with you know his father's crimes

01:20:38.640 --> 01:20:41.979
and you know all of that sort of thing and so

01:20:41.979 --> 01:20:46.859
I think part of it is We just don't quite understand

01:20:46.859 --> 01:20:50.779
the full cultural connotation That was being

01:20:50.779 --> 01:20:54.840
told in those stories But it's also fine to just

01:20:54.840 --> 01:20:58.649
have your own opinions about it You know based

01:20:58.649 --> 01:21:02.949
on reading it as a modern person. Yeah, I mean,

01:21:02.949 --> 01:21:06.149
that's true. I mean, I've actually got a book

01:21:06.149 --> 01:21:09.149
on my shelf from Flametree Press called Loki,

01:21:09.489 --> 01:21:11.729
and it's their kind of like old myths, modern

01:21:11.729 --> 01:21:16.630
tellings. And it's half a huge info dump about

01:21:16.630 --> 01:21:19.689
Loki's mythical origins and his adventures and

01:21:19.689 --> 01:21:21.149
what he represents, what he doesn't represent,

01:21:21.149 --> 01:21:23.970
et cetera. But then half of it is short stories

01:21:23.970 --> 01:21:28.229
written by creatives. um of all types and backgrounds

01:21:28.229 --> 01:21:32.250
and they all pick different aspects of Loki's

01:21:32.250 --> 01:21:34.449
past adventures and one of the stories I think

01:21:34.449 --> 01:21:37.069
I last read in it was told from the point of

01:21:37.069 --> 01:21:39.909
view of Navi as the intestines shackling his

01:21:39.909 --> 01:21:43.609
father to the stone and and how even though kind

01:21:43.609 --> 01:21:45.710
of like he can't do or say anything he kind of

01:21:45.710 --> 01:21:48.750
like he he feels his father's pain when the acid

01:21:48.750 --> 01:21:51.590
drips he sees his mother kind of like weeping

01:21:51.590 --> 01:21:54.090
as she's carrying the poison around he sees his

01:21:54.390 --> 01:21:56.810
other brother kind of like the wolf kind of goes

01:21:56.810 --> 01:21:59.130
through a phase of guilt and then kind of remorse

01:21:59.130 --> 01:22:01.329
and kind of like rage at being a wolf also kind

01:22:01.329 --> 01:22:03.989
of the guilt of having killed his brother and

01:22:03.989 --> 01:22:07.250
it ends kind of like with the eventual Narby

01:22:07.250 --> 01:22:09.909
eventually letting his family go he can't keep

01:22:09.909 --> 01:22:12.710
them all here and that is why supposedly the

01:22:12.710 --> 01:22:15.270
bindings around Loki break not because of Ragnarok

01:22:15.270 --> 01:22:17.430
because Narby decides right and you've all suffered

01:22:17.430 --> 01:22:19.850
enough we've all been for hundreds of years Go

01:22:19.850 --> 01:22:22.869
forth my family be free. I will dissolve into

01:22:22.869 --> 01:22:25.789
nothing and be a piece of less. I thought that's

01:22:25.789 --> 01:22:30.489
a really dark Yeah In both senses of the word

01:22:30.489 --> 01:22:34.229
twisted View of things and it certainly paints

01:22:34.229 --> 01:22:36.310
Loki in his entire family, which of course not

01:22:36.310 --> 01:22:39.869
many people realize he had Right, um from according

01:22:39.869 --> 01:22:42.050
to the old stuff in a very very different light

01:22:42.050 --> 01:22:46.590
well in in that story the the person that I actually

01:22:46.590 --> 01:22:51.310
feel the sorryest for is Loki's dutiful wife,

01:22:51.569 --> 01:22:55.829
Sijin, because she's forced to look on as this

01:22:55.829 --> 01:22:59.229
punishment is wrought, not just on Loki for his

01:22:59.229 --> 01:23:04.050
misdeeds, but on her children. And yet, even

01:23:04.050 --> 01:23:07.630
through all of that, she still stands by him.

01:23:08.930 --> 01:23:14.770
And, you know, even if he was not in didn't didn't

01:23:14.770 --> 01:23:18.939
have these liaisons with all the gods and goddesses.

01:23:18.939 --> 01:23:22.739
He certainly had some of them with Angerbota

01:23:22.739 --> 01:23:27.100
and others. So describing Loki as a dutiful husband

01:23:27.100 --> 01:23:32.079
does not seem particularly accurate and yet Sijin

01:23:32.079 --> 01:23:35.640
chooses to be and represents being a dutiful

01:23:35.640 --> 01:23:39.899
wife and mother doing, you know, representing

01:23:39.899 --> 01:23:43.140
order to go back to the order chaos analogy or

01:23:43.140 --> 01:23:49.260
just representing her role to play in that story.

01:23:50.119 --> 01:23:52.720
And I just find that, when you just think about

01:23:52.720 --> 01:23:57.020
it for even a small amount, it's just so depressing

01:23:57.020 --> 01:24:01.260
from her point of view. It is, I think. I've

01:24:01.260 --> 01:24:03.739
only ever come across one author who's written

01:24:03.739 --> 01:24:08.449
a whole fancy duology, actually. about her, which

01:24:08.449 --> 01:24:11.029
is Cat Recta, and her first book is aptly titled

01:24:11.029 --> 01:24:13.710
The Goddess of Nothing at all. Because if she

01:24:13.710 --> 01:24:15.689
is a goddess, we don't know what she's a goddess

01:24:15.689 --> 01:24:18.010
of. We don't know her particular powers. She's

01:24:18.010 --> 01:24:21.229
not like Freya, beautiful. She's not like Brig,

01:24:21.449 --> 01:24:22.670
kind of like with mythical powers. She's not

01:24:22.670 --> 01:24:24.750
like Sif with golden hair. She just happens to

01:24:24.750 --> 01:24:28.350
be the lucky or unlucky person who got where

01:24:28.350 --> 01:24:30.149
to look. We don't even know how these two met,

01:24:30.270 --> 01:24:33.250
but she kind of like covers that entire beginning.

01:24:33.700 --> 01:24:36.380
all the way through to Ragnarok and everything

01:24:36.380 --> 01:24:38.359
and then she has a whole kind of like sequel

01:24:38.359 --> 01:24:41.819
that is after Ragnarok and how Sigyn and Loki

01:24:41.819 --> 01:24:43.939
kind of like find themselves off to Ragnarok

01:24:43.939 --> 01:24:46.920
and make peace with the world and restore it

01:24:46.920 --> 01:24:48.939
and rebuild things and there's lots going on

01:24:48.939 --> 01:24:52.960
but it is a beautifully deep it certainly gives

01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:56.000
a picture of Loki being mistreated and that he's

01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:59.560
always manipulated and controlled by Odin as

01:24:59.560 --> 01:25:02.039
almost as a spy to kind of like go infiltrate

01:25:02.039 --> 01:25:03.920
things and find things out because you're sneaky,

01:25:04.119 --> 01:25:05.760
because you can shape shift, because you can

01:25:05.760 --> 01:25:08.819
do these things. And Odin's treatment of his

01:25:08.819 --> 01:25:12.279
children, not just of kind of like Hel, Freya

01:25:12.279 --> 01:25:14.600
and Jormungandr, but even Sleipnir, it really

01:25:14.600 --> 01:25:18.609
presents a very dark version of Odin. dominating,

01:25:18.609 --> 01:25:20.829
controlling satan here as a way of dominating,

01:25:20.829 --> 01:25:23.510
controlling Loki. And Loki didn't give him freely.

01:25:24.050 --> 01:25:25.970
Odin took him because he felt Loki was starting

01:25:25.970 --> 01:25:28.390
to be a bit too rebellious, a bit too independent,

01:25:28.489 --> 01:25:31.229
a bit too willful against him. Try not to spoil

01:25:31.229 --> 01:25:33.489
it too much. But I really, really enjoyed it.

01:25:36.050 --> 01:25:38.430
But yes, I can't remember what her other book

01:25:38.430 --> 01:25:41.930
was called after it. Oh, what was it? Oh, it's

01:25:41.930 --> 01:25:43.970
funny. When you look back at your bookshelf,

01:25:44.050 --> 01:25:46.130
it looks like you're looking deep into the media.

01:25:47.160 --> 01:25:49.699
I wish my bookshelves were as deep as this meat

01:25:49.699 --> 01:25:52.159
hall. If you join me on YouTube, dear listeners,

01:25:52.300 --> 01:25:54.420
you will see my beautiful virtual meat hall.

01:25:55.039 --> 01:25:56.399
But yes, my bookshelves are further behind me,

01:25:56.420 --> 01:25:58.079
but they're not near enough to be a nice backdrop.

01:25:59.060 --> 01:26:00.579
Otherwise, I'd be writing through to the doorway

01:26:00.579 --> 01:26:02.640
and I'd be waking up my five -year -old, which

01:26:02.640 --> 01:26:06.520
wouldn't do anyone any good. But yes, Epilogue

01:26:06.520 --> 01:26:09.180
of the Lost Gods is the sequel to The Goddess

01:26:09.180 --> 01:26:11.140
and Nothing at All, and I do recommend reading

01:26:11.140 --> 01:26:13.699
that if anyone wants to find out more about Loki

01:26:13.699 --> 01:26:17.369
in a modern... view context kind of thing. Of

01:26:17.369 --> 01:26:20.010
course, it's set in a fantastical world, but

01:26:20.010 --> 01:26:21.890
it was really well written. And of course, there's

01:26:21.890 --> 01:26:24.470
always Joanne Harris with her Gospel of Loki

01:26:24.470 --> 01:26:27.510
and the Testament of Loki. And Loki also features

01:26:27.510 --> 01:26:29.949
in rune marks and rune light. But there's quite

01:26:29.949 --> 01:26:32.350
a number of books that feature Loki, surprisingly.

01:26:34.670 --> 01:26:37.010
I wonder if that goes back to what we were talking

01:26:37.010 --> 01:26:40.890
about earlier of why so much is written about

01:26:40.890 --> 01:26:45.720
Loki is because authors really like Loki. Perhaps

01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:49.260
it was true for our ancestors a thousand years

01:26:49.260 --> 01:26:51.859
back, just as much as it's true for modern writers.

01:26:53.439 --> 01:26:55.899
Quite possibly, quite possibly. Certainly, I

01:26:55.899 --> 01:26:58.300
guess, as you pointed out, we don't really know

01:26:58.300 --> 01:27:02.000
where he came from, how he met Odin, where he

01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:04.079
became involved with his ear, why he never left,

01:27:04.479 --> 01:27:07.760
how he became a milkmaid for so long. There's

01:27:07.760 --> 01:27:10.579
so much we don't know. And as I remember saying,

01:27:10.859 --> 01:27:13.520
it gives you as creatives of all different types

01:27:13.520 --> 01:27:16.270
of mediums, free range to kind of like reposition,

01:27:16.510 --> 01:27:18.090
re -angle looks at it from a different point

01:27:18.090 --> 01:27:21.689
of view and help also connect it to the now to

01:27:21.689 --> 01:27:24.710
kind of like a path that can seem so far and

01:27:24.710 --> 01:27:27.649
so foreign at times and yet have that connection

01:27:27.649 --> 01:27:33.000
ring so true of so many levels. Gosh, we could

01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:36.020
go on and on and on, but I'm aware of the time

01:27:36.020 --> 01:27:38.260
and how long our dear viewers in this are probably

01:27:38.260 --> 01:27:40.680
sitting, heard the word Loki. Don't try taking

01:27:40.680 --> 01:27:45.039
shots if you say, if we say Loki, you wouldn't

01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:47.939
last half an hour. But that'll be a fun drinking

01:27:47.939 --> 01:27:51.600
game and probably quite Loki -esque, if I must

01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:55.359
say. But please do go support Sam Flegel and

01:27:55.359 --> 01:27:57.579
his wonderful Kickstarter and his wonderful art

01:27:57.579 --> 01:27:59.279
and even if you don't get the Kickstarter go

01:27:59.279 --> 01:28:01.640
give him a few a few quid or a few dollars or

01:28:01.640 --> 01:28:03.600
whatever it is on Patreon because it's worth

01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:06.960
it. His art covers more than Loki, he's got some

01:28:06.960 --> 01:28:08.859
fantastic work. I mean I remember when I last

01:28:08.859 --> 01:28:11.180
interviewed you, you gave me a beautiful sneak

01:28:11.180 --> 01:28:13.859
peek of the new Valkyrie print that you did with

01:28:13.859 --> 01:28:16.600
her beautiful kind of horned headdress and the

01:28:16.600 --> 01:28:19.699
blade against the land's throat. if i could have

01:28:19.699 --> 01:28:21.760
that if i had the wall space and had the money

01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:24.739
to afford it i would um it'll ask the cat so

01:28:24.739 --> 01:28:27.720
it's just kind of a wannabe and wannabe wish

01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:31.960
list absolutely if i ever get to becky cave because

01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:34.000
i would love to have actual stuff behind me and

01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:38.300
not just a virtual backdrop but there we go For

01:28:38.300 --> 01:28:40.979
folks listening, if you search for Locust Center

01:28:40.979 --> 01:28:44.640
on Kickstarter, you'll find it. I'm sure Becky

01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:47.800
will share some links as well. It's called the

01:28:47.800 --> 01:28:50.680
Illustrated Locust Center and it's going to be

01:28:50.680 --> 01:28:55.039
funding. Now through December 11th at the time

01:28:55.039 --> 01:28:58.479
of this recording, we're at 75 % funded. So we're

01:28:58.479 --> 01:29:01.500
getting very close to reaching the funding goal.

01:29:01.939 --> 01:29:04.300
So it seems like it's going to be a real book.

01:29:05.119 --> 01:29:07.140
So here's, yeah, fingers crossed. Here's hope.

01:29:08.060 --> 01:29:14.409
Yes. Yes, and even if you don't support it, send

01:29:14.409 --> 01:29:16.510
it to your friends because if you like Vikings,

01:29:16.810 --> 01:29:18.470
if you like Loki, if you like Norse mythology,

01:29:19.069 --> 01:29:21.109
you should give Facebook your attention and definitely

01:29:21.109 --> 01:29:23.989
give Sam's art and Sam himself your attention

01:29:23.989 --> 01:29:26.430
because as you can see, he's a lovely guy and

01:29:26.430 --> 01:29:28.869
a beautifully talented artist as well. You're

01:29:28.869 --> 01:29:32.619
very kind, thank you. Well, thank you so much

01:29:32.619 --> 01:29:34.979
for joining me back in Valhalla and I wish you

01:29:34.979 --> 01:29:37.060
best of luck with the Kickstarter and I'm sure

01:29:37.060 --> 01:29:39.560
we will have you on again soon whenever the new

01:29:39.560 --> 01:29:41.920
variant of Loki emerges in modern media and we

01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:46.960
can do another dissection. Sounds great. Thank

01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:50.039
you so much, Sam. Thank you. I appreciate it.