Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review. how such subjects are
being presented to modern audiences today. If
you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla
and I hope you stay for the conversation. everyone
to the Valhalla Conversations podcast where we
talk all things Norse, whether it's historical
or mythological, a bit of both, whether it's
artifacts, sagas, poetics, excavations, new discovery,
new research, or of course modern interpretations
from film, comics, books, TVs, games, TV series,
artwork, you name it. If it's been done, I'll
try and get it on because if it's Norse, I kind
of want to talk about it. And with this episode
being our 20th episode, we've kind of picked
something that's actually also had its own special
anniversary of late, which is the saga of Eric
the Viking, a children's book written by the
late comedian and actor of sorts, Perry Jones
of the Monty Python group. And I'm delighted
to welcome my special guest this week. or this
month, I should say. It's both week and month,
depending on which way it drops. It's Chris Tuckley.
Welcome, Chris Tuckley. Hi, Becky. Thanks for
inviting me. You're very welcome. And thanks
for joining me on this journey of discovering
about Eric the Viking. Of course, I grew up knowing
the comedic film that the Monty Python team did
and didn't realize that the book actually came
before the film, interestingly enough. Yes, well,
actually, Eric the Viking is several things,
isn't it? And we're going to four or five possibly.
And we're going to explore each of these various
versions and incarnations in our conversation.
And I have a bit of a background with Eric the
Viking, but not much of one. So this really was
a deep dive and me coming to this material afresh.
It's quite new to me, really. Well, I appreciate
your dedication to the cause on this particular
episode. But viewers who have not come across
you before, perhaps in other aspects of your
work and career, can you tell us what you're
currently working on? Yes, well, I'm currently
project manager for a National Lottery Heritage
Fund funded project at Selby Abbey, the wonderful
Selby Abbey in North Yorkshire. So it's a £1
.5 million project. It's keeping the works, repairs
to part of the Abbey fabric. but it's also community
engagement and it's also a programme of training
and development for the wonderful team of volunteers
at Selby Abbey and also the staff there. So it's
a new role for me, it's one I'm tremendously
excited about and Selby Abbey is such a spectacular
place to work. I'd recommend to your listeners
if they haven't visited Selby Abbey before, it's
well worth the trip, it's a really beautiful
location. Yes, because of course I come from
that part of the area kind of like North Yorkshire
that kind of area of course we all think of kind
of like Revo Abbey But never think of Selby Abbey
and I've heard of Selby But I think I've actually
ever been to Selby having grown up in North Yorkshire
for a lot of my life. Well, it's Selby Abbey
church, well the church there, it's a parish
church now, it was the church of Selby Abbey
and very few Abbey churches survived the dissolution,
so you mentioned you mentioned Revo which is
essentially in ruins, but the Selby Abbey has
been through massive changes and various disasters
over the centuries, but it has survived and it's
kept its beauty. But there aren't many of those
abbey churches that actually survived the dissolution.
I suspect in the case of Selby Abbey it's because
it was needed as a parish church for the town
of Selby. That's interesting. Gosh, there's a
whole area there that people would probably deep
dive into about the kind of the history of the
abbeys all over not just the solution but how
they became what they were before then and then
what happened to them afterwards yes i was thinking
a little bit as well given given the theme of
your podcast about the sort of the any any viking
connections with selby and selby really it really
came into being at the time of the the norman
conquest and actually the abbey was founded at
the time of the harrying of the north so it comes
into being, it's a French monk from Auxerre who
has a vision of Saint Germain and then travels
to Selby with a relic of Saint Germain and establishes
a community at Selby and then apparently if the
foundation legend is to be believed that's when
William the Conqueror comes into the picture
and gives Selby its foundation charter and that's
that's the beginning then of Selby Abbey so the
the official story that the monks told was that
it was it was based on a on a vision and a monk
going on this essentially stole a relic from
his from his home community and then with guided
by these visions from Saint Germain jumps on
a boat travels over to England has various journeys
through England until he sees another vision
which indicates where where his community should
be established. But given the year of the foundation,
1069, and given what was going on within that
area of England, which obviously has its allegiances
more with the Viking world, Scandinavia, it makes
me think that maybe, you know, this isn't necessarily
an accident or a God given mission. Maybe there's
a little bit more. going on there and a reason
for this Norman creation within Yorkshire. So
yeah, there may be other Viking stories in Selby
to come to light, but obviously I'll keep you
posted on those, Becky, as we go. I suppose the
other thing to say about me is that I've got
an interest in pop culture Vikings and that's
something I've developed over the years. I've
been working in the museums and heritage world
for coming on for 25 years now and a big chunk
of that has been working the Orbi Viking Centre
of course so I do have an interest in Vikings
and therefore I've got an interest in this particular
incarnation of a public Viking, a popular Viking,
although maybe didn't turn out to be as popular
as his creator would have wanted. I'm interested
in this very 1980s Viking, Eric the Viking. Yes,
it's really quite surprising how little known
this book is, I suppose. So I guess we should
begin with the beginnings of, and as we mentioned,
things of Eric the Viking existed before the
Monty Python film. So what existed first then,
Chris? Well, the first item really on the list
is the saga of Eric the Viking, so the children's
book by Terry Jones. My edition, I think it's
still in print, it's been reprinted many times
over the years. It has a strong reputation as
a piece of children's fiction. It's well -liked,
it's a respected book. So my copy is a Puffin
edition from 1988. It first appeared in print
in 1983. It won the Children's Book Award. It's
illustrated by Michael Foreman, who apparently
worked on multiple books with Terry Jones. I
wasn't a reader of Terry Jones. as a child, so
I didn't come across these in my childhood. I
would have been within the target demographic,
I think, because in 1983 I was four and five.
So actually the kind of book that it is, I think
I was probably part of the intended audience
at that time when it first appeared in print.
But it was preceded by another book called fairy
tales. So these are Terry Jones's fairy tales.
And Eric the Viking, you've probably noticed,
is dedicated to Terry Jones's son, Bill. Fairy
tales have been dedicated to his daughter. So
I think he wanted to do the same for his daughter
as he did for his son. But his son expressed
a preference for linked stories. Apparently the
book of fairy tales aren't linked. And when he
discussed this with his son, his son said, no,
I don't want random fairy tales that don't have
any sort of linking device or linking narrative.
He had a preference for a linking device that
would connect all of the stories. I've heard
Terry Jones speaking about this. You can find
him speaking about this in various places. I
can't recall where I saw this now. It might be
in the sleeve notes for the Viking DVD, but you
can find him online on YouTube talking about
Eric the Viking as well. He visited the Vikings
exhibition at the British Museum in February
to July 1980, which was a very, very influential
exhibition. when it was conceived off, I don't
know, but I don't think that it's an incident
that it came into being while the Coppergate
excavations were happening in York. All of the
material, the new material was being brought
to light for the first time. And I think some
of that may have been on display in that exhibition
in London. I've not got hold of the exhibition
catalogue, but I think some of that went on display
in London. And this is around the time that Viking
exhibitions were happening in York as well. So
there was a flurry and there was a Madness Madnesson
presented a TV documentary about Vikings at the
time. There was a lot of interest in the early
80s about Vikings. Obviously then the Viking
Centre came into being in 1984. So that's there
in the DNA of the saga of Eric the Viking, this
rising public interest, I guess. in the Vikings
in England. And actually that exhibition at the
British Museum was the last major Viking exhibition
there prior to the one that happened in 2014.
I didn't visit that one, but that was the Viking
Life and Legend. Yes, I was very fortunate in
that I worked as a College Librarian and I was
great friends with a history teacher and they
needed an extra staff member. And so he said,
I'll recruit you. And so I got to go down with
all these history geeky students and absolutely
live my best life down at my job. I didn't see
the 1981. I didn't see the 2014 one. But I seem
to recall that Gareth Williams, the curator of
the of the 2014 exhibition in a talk he gave
in York, said that he had been as a child. I
think he was still a child at that point to the
to the Vikings. in 1980. So it was an influential
exhibition, both in terms of popular culture
and then people who went on to work on Vikings
in a sort of professional academic scholarly
way. So I think that's really the background
to the book. We can talk about sort of the flavor
of the book, but I think that fairy tales particularly
are relevant aren't they? I mean what's your
background with this book Becky? Well I have
the 2013 edition which is the 30th special 30th
anniversary edition so it's a tad older than
me now. I was born in the late 1980s so I just
missed the first exhibition and all this jazz
and I didn't really get into Vikings until my
early teenage years anyway. But this is like
the special, it's kind of like it's got like
a paper map effect on the front cover. It's still
got all the illustrations in. And of course,
it's got the lovely foreword by Terry in the
front. Because I believe does your book have
the same foreword? No, I don't think it does.
No, I don't think it does. I will indulge you
and our listeners and viewers. I will read it
because it actually covers quite a bit on what
you've talked about, especially because he does
mention about how he wrote the first book for
his daughter. But it also illuminates his own
encounters with Norse sagas, which I found fascinating,
because I thought, oh, he's actually got a genuine
interest. He's not just influenced by all the
popularity. So here's everyone sitting comfortably.
In the words of the late Terry Jones in 2013,
this book is the result of my dissatisfaction
with the Icelandic sagas, the first time I read
them. I expected them to be tales of wonder and
adventure, full of weird monsters and demons
roaming the earth in search of mortals to destroy.
I thought they would be full of fantasy and invention
and flights of the imagination. The first Icelandic
saga I read was Njáls saga, and apologies if
I can't pronounce Njáls names, it's N -J -A -L
-S, and found it on first reading to be a rather
pedestrian account of family feuds. how somebody
stole another's farmer's chicken, and how that
farmer then stole the first farmer's cow, and
how the first farmer then stole the second farmer's
horse, and how the second farmer then murdered
the first farmer's child or wife or near relative.
I am parodying of course. Moreover, Danielle's
saga is full of passages like this. A man named
Hoskald lived there, the son of Dala Coll, collar
from the Dala district. His mother was Thorga,
the daughter of Thorstein the Red, who was the
son of Olaf the White. His father was Ingjald
Helgeson. Ingjald's mother was Thorga, and it
only goes on. And so on and so on. And I found
it hard to get past such passages, and I agree
with him. That's what I found. I only found one
saga that I liked, and that was Gritte's saga.
Gritte and the Strong. We eventually parodied
the Niel saga in an episode of Monty Python called
Mjolnir's saga. Eric Newell can't mount his horse
because of a voice that is constantly reading
out the endless list of lineages. The saga eventually
gets taken over by the North Malden mayor's office,
thinly disguised as the North Malden Icelandic
Saga Society, trying to attract business and
investment to North Malden. In 1979, I had written
a book called Fairy Tales for my daughter Sally
when she was five. When my son Bill reached five,
I obviously had to write a book for him. We had
just visited an exhibition of Vikings at the
British Museum, so I asked Bill if he would like
a story about Vikings and he said yes. This gave
me the chance to write the sagas as I would have
liked them to have been, full of flights of the
imagination and adventurous exploits, monsters
and creatures and magic and fantasy. Although
since then... I have changed my mind about the
Icelandic sagas. I was given the complete sagas
of the Icelanders in five volumes and have found
them to be really fascinating. The tales are
indeed told in prosaic way, but they are fascinating
because of this. They are glimpses of lives seen
700 to 1 ,000 years ago without the artifice
of plot or the adornments of rhetoric. Lives,
moreover, lived on the margins of civilization
that show people to have been just as noble and
virtuous, devious and cunning as any people are
today. The Icelandic sagas show us that we are
human beings, are the same the world over and
whatever age we live in. Thank goodness. The
end. That's lovely. Presumably that's from 2013
then, if that's the 30th anniversary book. And
that, as far as I know, is his last word on the
saga about the Viking, the book. So that's really
interesting to hear, isn't it? It's probably
worth mentioning as well, isn't it, Becky, that
the time of recording that has just been, I think
last week, the official biography of Terry Jones
has hit bookshelves. And it's called Seriously
Silly, The Life of Terry Jones. It's by Robert
Ross. And I've not had a chance to have a look
at that yet. presumably they'll be content on
Eric the Viking and Terry Jones's feelings about
it in there. But you spotted something else as
well, didn't you, that I hadn't blocked in terms
of celebrating the life of Terry Jones? In his
hometown. Oh yes, yes his hometown. It was a
BBC article I read probably the same week that
you messaged me about the biography coming out
that his famous kind of like character type is
a naked pianist and so they're going to make
a statue of him naked at a piano in his hometown
which I think is it's probably that kind of like
tier higher than the one from Walkman Wise. So
it does seem a really a great moment doesn't
it that we've got the Terry Jones being being
remembered and celebrated in the news again.
we're looking looking back at his his eric the
viking in time for this for this podcast so yeah
that that's um i've not i've not heard that forward
before i've heard about the um that there was
a nyarl saga inspired monty python sketch but
i hadn't seen it from your your reading of that
account yeah just just uh just in the written
account of it it sounds really funny So it's
like they were doing what Norsemen are recently
doing. That Scandinavian cold, kind of like cold
and cunning as I call it, comedy on Netflix about
Vikings. Seems like Python were doing it way
before, way, way before. Go on, sorry. I was
just going to say certainly as a children's book,
I really enjoyed it. Really, really enjoyed it.
Yeah, well, my background with the book is that,
as I said, I didn't read it as a child. I first
picked it up maybe seven or eight years ago.
I got a secondhand copy from an Oxfam bookshop.
And yes, really enjoyed it. It wasn't what I
expected. It is a fairy tale in terms of its
feel, its structure, but it is a linked series
of fairy tales. The language used is very plain.
It is reminiscent from what I recall of Grimm's
fairy tales. Very, very plain language. Very
little descriptive writing. Lots of metaphor
and symbolism of the kind that you might encounter
in fairy tales. In the course of Eric's adventures,
things tend to happen in threes. So there'll
be a problem. They'll try solution one. It won't
work. They'll try solution two. It won't work.
And then they'll try solution three. And then
they'll get a different kind of outcome. I noticed
as well that the text often addresses the reader.
So maybe this is, again, when you're writing
a book for your child, you think about reading
it aloud. Yes, yes I got that very distinctly
and I thought oh maybe I should try this in my
favour and see what she thinks. Yeah you should
try it and see what she thinks of it. So sometimes
it addresses the reader so what do you think
at various points? Not often but it does do that.
There's very little character development in
a sense. the Viking characters are largely interchangeable.
You maybe get a little bit more development of
Eric in that he is repeatedly tested. He proves
his worth as a leader. He clearly learns something
in the course of his adventures. And the other
thing, and again, I think this echoes with what
you said, what you read from the foreword, is
there isn't a lot of period detail. in there.
There's a little bit, so you've got characters
with Viking names, you've got a named boat, swords
that have names. But beyond that, it's got those
sort of trappings of a Viking world, but not
in any great depth or detail. In a sense, the
adventure could be transplanted to outer space.
or anywhere really, the Viking setting isn't
important to the story I don't think. It's very
much a fantasy with a Viking flavour, more than
a fantasy set in a Viking world, because as you
say it's got like the essence of Viking names
but not many, thankfully the names there are
all quite more pronounceable than Jarl and all
that nonsense that I certainly looking at the
illustrations in my book. I think only a couple
of them actually no no actually take that back
they do definitely have the figure of horned
helmets although Eric's character and a few of
his more close comrades because they're the only
you think you only know names of like maybe three
of his crew like his best mates is kind of like
wise one cunning one strong one that kind of
thing everyone else you just refer to as the
men the crew. They have wings on their helmets,
which I thought, oh, that's a classical artistic
trope of signifying the hero that's obviously
come through from classical opera, dare I say,
or even kind of like, I'm sure even in the Bugs
Bunny version of Wikener's opera of the Valkyrie,
they've got wings on their helmets as well. So
yeah, so that was interesting. Yes, yeah, so
that tradition does come through in the illustrations,
but it's not in the text, is it? It isn't the
case that Jones describes what they're wearing.
He'll make reference to a helmet or a sword,
but he doesn't go into a great deal of detail
on what they are like as objects. That's not
what it's about. It's really, it's a fairy tale
that's populated by Viking types, but equally
could be populated by... characters in an outer
space adventure or any other historical period
really, I guess. Or maybe it needs to be in sort
of a mythic past, if it's in the past, a past
where you can encounter dragons and other fantastical
creatures. You couldn't set it in a more fully
documented or recorded period of history because
we know if it was in... World War Two, for instance,
this wouldn't work as a narrative. It needs elements
of the history to reflect how these things existed
such as the sea dragon and the islands that they
come across where they're all rocks and then
they all become rocks. And then there's this
wizard who was trying to make the island beautiful
for his daughter, but didn't realize because
he have stones for eyes, it's actually turning
everything to stone. It's so fantastical, but
it also kind of like fits kind of like how Asian
peoples probably visualized the world and saw
these things because of course they believed
in trolls and elves and dwarves and dragons and
evil spirits and magics and curses. Certainly,
it definitely almost like has a harking back.
to even kind of like older mythical epic adventures
such as kind of like the Odyssey and Theseus
and all that kind of like Greek because they're
always encountering mythical things. Their adventures
are never historical, they're always fantastical.
Yeah, there are lots of borrowings, aren't there,
as well as from fairy tales, lots of borrowings
from other traditions, other legends. So you
get figures like the Old Man of the Sea, for
instance, who I think he crops up in Greek mythology,
doesn't he, but also in the adventures of Sinbad.
So, yes, he's in the Odyssey and in Sinbad. So
those sorts of types are borrowed as well as
characters from Germanic legend, apparently.
I recognise the name, there's a character called
Cobold, for instance, who is quite significant,
but the Cobold apparently is a creature that
appears elsewhere in folklore, folk tradition
in the Germanic world, but yeah, lots of borrowings.
Also from, it's quite significant as well, isn't
it, that Eric meets death and he's challenged
by death and he has to play a game of chess against
death to outwit him. and to not be killed and
carried off by death. And I'm not sure quite
where that motif comes from, the idea of a hero
playing chess against death, but it certainly
features in the seventh seal, the Ingmar Bergman
film, the seventh seal, which is this. So that
features a knight playing chess against death
on a beach. I'm a fan of Monty Python and I'm
a fan of Monty Python and the Holy Grail and
obviously that involves many of the same people
who then pop up later in Eric the Viking, the
film. But the trailer for Eric the Viking, sorry,
the trailer for Monty Python and the Holy Grail
also features a parody of death playing chess
on the beach. It's not in the film itself but
it is in the in the trailer for Monty Python
and the Holy Grail which is worth seeking out
because it's a little production all of itself
and it's funny and it's on YouTube. So that's
obviously a motif that interested Terry Jones
and I think I'm right in saying that in that
trailer he plays death. He only features very
briefly but essentially there's a chess game
and it just ends with death using a custard pie
and pushing it. piece of the night that he's
playing chess against. So there are borrowings
from all over within this book. But also, I think
it's probably important to say that Jones was
a medievalist. And he wrote a series called Medieval
Lives, a BBC series, and an accompanying book
as well. And I think as a medievalist, he was
aware of some of the fantastical creatures that
belong to medieval tradition, like the dog -headed
men, the idea that Christopher was a dog -headed
man, also the blemi, those creatures that have
their heads in their chests. Yes, yes. And maybe
they crop up as the inhabitants of the land where
the sun goes at night. So Eric's quest really,
there's not much of a motive given for his quest
initially within the book. He wakes up with the
idea, I need to go to find where the sun goes
at night. And there's no other real rationale
or explanation given. Another character eventually
does interrogate him on that. Is it the enchantress?
Somebody asks him why he's doing it, but there
isn't really a, or maybe it's cobbled. There's
no real justification given until the end. The
justification for all of the adventures, the
reasoning for it, emerges in the course of the
adventures. And it's that little phrase that
the reader is left with at the end of the book,
which is, it's lovely, our deeds are our gold,
our quest is our goal. they learn, if there's
a lesson or a moral to be drawn from this story,
I think there are probably several, but one of
them is that the treasure is the journey, and
that's quite a valuable lesson maybe to carry
through life, is that it's not about the end
point, it's about the journey, it's about the
friends you make on the way, it's about what
you do in the course of your life, it's not about...
amassing a treasure or defeating the dragon or
becoming the hero, it is about the process. That's
the most valuable thing in life. And also the
relationships along the way, whether that's with
your crewmates or with your family. And that's
a theme that not only belongs to the book, the
idea of It's really father to son, I think, in
the book. Women don't get much of a look -in
in the book, which is slightly unfortunate, I
think. I mean, they'd argue they don't get much
of a look -in in the film either, but it thinks
a lot and it communicates about the idea of being
a father to, in this case, to a son. And Eric's
father... is rescued in the course of the story.
This is something that we're necessarily expecting
because Eric's father is supposedly lost, but
he is rescued from the old man of the sea who
is this villain who keeps, he's probably the
most dangerous villain within the story. He sort
of keeps coming back. I think Eric encounters
him thrice. I think he encounters him on three
occasions within the book each time he is beaten
or outwitted. Eric rescues his father who's presumed
lost and then eventually Eric himself is rescued
in that final battle with death by his own son
who pops up and says and says well death you're
not triumphant because um life is passed on from
father to son so yeah right so so you'd think
death would have realized that by this point
really wouldn't you it's a maybe a little bit
of a cop -out but it's it's nice it's a nice
sentiment i suppose And it is a nice bow that
ties up the story at the end. It's that death
isn't triumphant because we have our families,
I suppose, to give it its broadest possible reading
and understanding of that epic. So I think we've
already given away, haven't we, that we like
this book, Becky? Yes, we do. There were the
bits in it that you would you would like to sort
of signpost to your listening. Gosh, well I guess
it's at least my version my edition I should
say it's quite a thick big book I mean mine's
got 155 -ish pages but thankfully the way Terry
Jones has written it it's very reminiscent of
kind of like episodic adventures so you could
read one chapter which is probably only about
five or six pages because there's always a nice
illustration at least on half or one page and
then kind of do the next one the next night so
you can make this book last quite a long time
so the parents you don't want to sit and read
it all you don't have to you can break it into
a series of adventures um which one did i think
i liked most what did you think of the dog fighters
That is an interesting question. The illustration
for it is what hit me more than the actual text
in the narrative because the illustration for
it immediately gave me flashbacks either of Maleficent's
demons and devils from Sleeping Beauty or the
creatures that were the original kind of like
animated version of the Chronicles of Narnia
under the Ice Queen because they were equally
kind of like grotesque and dull like. My version,
they only sort of appear in the distance, I think.
You can just see the tops of their heads in this
illustration. I didn't see much of them elsewhere.
Oh wow, that's quite different. Is that a Michael
Foreman illustration? Yes, they're all Michael
Foreman. There will be full JPEG coming up on
the screen. Although, dear listeners, you need
to come over to YouTube so you can see the artwork.
I think there's something else that happens,
how the value of this book, it's not, Michael
Forman had such a lot through his illustrations.
They are, they're simple. Are they all black
and white in yours? No, mine's got colour. I'm
just trying to find one. There's so many, so
many to choose from. Like, here's one from The
Secret Lake. She says, and I can stop pixelating
the thing. No, it's not going to show it. Oh,
yes, I can see it. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I will
send you pictures. I will send you pictures.
I think that one might be in Bible literature.
Yeah, so this is when they... Well, that's another
interesting episode, isn't it? Maybe if we...
round off the dogfighters we can talk about the
chapters which are linked aren't they when they
in their quest for the to find the land where
the sun goes at night they go off the edge of
the world which is an interesting notion and
one that gets recycled for the film but the dogfighters
are sort of recycled for the film aren't they
also the great dragon of the North Sea The dog
fighters are, they're Viking types, aren't they?
And they're sort of the Vikings as villains,
I guess. They arrive on the Enchanter's Island.
So the Enchanter at this point in the story is
quite friendly towards Eric and his crew. He's
a slightly ambiguous figure, but they end up
on friendly terms with him. But then the dog
fighters arrive and they are dangerous. it seems
that destruction is imminent, destruction of
everybody and everything on the island. So they
are this marauding, violent force from overseas,
and they are wearing something on their heads.
They're helmeted, aren't they? And in the book,
they are helmets that look like... dog heads
or dog faces. So I thought, is this a distillation
of the Viking threat? The idea of helmeted, of
characters in ferocious looking helmets arriving
from Oversea and then just laying waste. That's
an interesting idea. It certainly gave me a lot
to think about when I saw it in your notes. Because
in kind of like thinking looking back at it in
different ways as well kind of like the old man
of the sea as he said to the villain if I was
to link that character back to anything from
Norse mythology it was very Loki -like but then
I didn't know if it was kind of like a Loki version
of Njord god of the sea because he is a male
god so I didn't know if that was maybe where
it's going because there's no mention of Odin
Thor or Loki at all in this book it's very absent
of the mythology that the Vikings followed. It's
very much kind of like almost like a folklore
adventure. It's kind of like through superstition,
common traditions or beliefs more than kind of
like spiritual heathen pagan beliefs. Yeah, it's
not codified in that way, is it? Yeah, because
Eric's been mentioned as having gone raiding.
Neither is his crew. His father apparently seems
to have just gone exploring like how he did and
then got trapped. So it seems like they're kind
of like the flip side of the Vikings that were
explorers, possibly traders, I suppose. Whereas
the dogmen could be the opposite side. And it
certainly kind of like links back to the end.
If you've seen the dogmen as the anti -viking.
Anti -viking? yeah the negative biking anti doesn't
quite work and the negative biking aspects because
when they discovered the land where the sun goes
and those strange beasts and beings with heads
and their chests and not up on a neck it was
it's i remember i think was it right now it was
one of the three it's one of the three you've
got blinded after you found the star sword for
them oh that's door kill yes door kill yeah he
goes kind of like who are we to then say that
we should fighting clay in this land when clearly
it's theirs they live there who are we to say
that that fist wasn't raised in anger but it
could have been their way of saying friendship
who are we to say that their screams and yells
were of rage and insults and not actually them
singing kind of like a welcome song and it's
really what makes Eric and the rest of the crew
think that yes we shouldn't just go and take
this land from these people we should maybe we've
found it that's what we came out to do we should
just go home And that's what they then do, because,
of course, historically, Vikings would see land
that other people have. They say, that's nice.
Pastures over there in North Yorkshire. I'm going
to go and build a farmstead there. And then they'd
take it, which is what they did. So it's definitely
a children's book for children with none of the
baggage, none of the violence, certainly. I don't
think they really kill as such, they kind of
defeat. There's a bit of violence, but not too
much, when you think it's a Viking ethic. They
scare the dogmen off because they take the sword
from the leader and that becomes the star sword,
which of course makes me think back to like the
famous sword in the saga, well certainly in the
Nibelung cycle. kind of like the famous sword
that Sigurd uses to slay Fafnir and that kind
of thing and how it's a sword with special elements
because that special something is not just not
just your sword made from Ulfdane or whatever
his name was that Pete's putting his runes on
all the swords. You're absolutely right, though.
I've not really thought about it. Although they're
not violent Vikings in the first place, they
do explicitly reject violence at the end, after
that encounter, that struggle with those creatures
who live in the land where the sun goes at night.
And they are reflecting on that struggle against
them. And they think, well, maybe we've... we've
gone wrong here, that violence wasn't the answer
and maybe it was, not only was it not the answer,
it was completely the wrong thing to do. And
obviously that is a theme then that is carried
through to the movie of Eric the Viking, which
is violent and opens with a scene of violence
that puts it at odds with the idea that Eric
the Viking as an artifact is a children's item,
a children's object. But yes, they reject violence
very explicitly in that closing chapter of the
book. Actually, I think they do it a lot more
than we think. It's made me remember that even
in the first adventure where he comes across,
no actually, yeah, even before that, they come
across the sea dragon. They don't fight the sea
dragon. One of them bravely puts some pillows
up its nose and splashes the pillow so the tissues
make the dragon sneeze and off they go. And then
when they meet the enchantress, Eric falls to
her, but then he puts the cursed necklace on
her and not him. So again, they didn't kill her.
They do defeat the monster guarding her lair.
I'll say that. Yes. But yeah, it's never violence
on its own that overcomes the problems. There
may be a struggle. But the solution is generally
in outwitting a foe or solving a puzzle or a
problem. It's generally through courage or punning
or using your wits that you overcome the problem.
It's never a case of an all -out battle. that
on its own solves whatever the problem is that
is in front of Eric and his crew. Did you want
to say anything about the edge of the world?
Because they go over it, don't they, in their
boat? And not only do they go over it. Angling
over the edge now, how are they going to get
out of this one? They then go round and over.
Yes, they discover the lip and what's underneath
it. And then, of course, Eric has the brave idea,
well, I must bring my ship down underneath. But
how do I do that? There's only one way. They
have to make it do the same thing that the poor
guys did. But, yeah, it was interesting. It certainly,
of course, gave me flashbacks to Discworld in
Toe Pratchets. kind of like that magic one with
what's his name in it. I've only ever seen the
film version, I've not read many Terry Patchett
books to be fair, but of course kind of like
other historical mythological stories claim the
world was flat of course with Greece and Roman.
But it was interesting that they didn't come
across any dwarves. I was really expecting dwarves
to emerge now that they were underground, sort
of. And certainly having kind of like water flowing
under the earth enabled them to keep going with
the ship, otherwise they'd just have to be trekking
for a very, very, very long time. But that's
what a kobold character is. And of course, me
being kind of like a woman of 21st century and
a D &D player, kobold just immediately made me
think of like a small dragon type creature, not
the creature that was birthed or originated in
some kind of weird pearl and those from out of
the sea that were sailing on. But yeah that certainly
made me think back to the Enchantress and the
Talking Valley stories where they find themselves
in places where things or people don't want them
to leave. That comes across a couple of times
in different ways and they have to cope and again
they could have easily just killed the kind of
like the guy Kobolds, they're kind of like to
leave, but they didn't. They kind of Eric says,
OK, then we'll stay secretly thinking that we're
going to get our guys back and we're off kind
of thing. And the other the other, I suppose,
thing to mention as we sort of move towards the
end of discussing the book and towards the the
other. the other artifacts is the dragon of the
North Sea because well in fact you have mentioned
it haven't you and the way that they overcome
the dragon it's not through brute force it's
through cunning but those are dog fighters the
edge of the world and the dragon are I think
they're the three most prominent examples of
episodes carried over from the from the book
and into the film, unless there's anything else
that I've forgotten. Unfortunately, I didn't
get round to rewatching the film. Well, this
is the first time I've read the book. I've had
the book for ages, and it was only when we started
discussing it that I thought, oh, of course,
actually, yeah, I've got the book. Yeah, that's
OK. I've watched both versions of the film. We'll
get onto that shortly. The Saga of Eric the Viking.
Was there anything more that we wanted to say
about this, apart from sort of recommending it
to people? The second time I've read it, again,
I really enjoyed it. I wish one of my kids would
pick it up and read it. So far, they resisted
my attempts to get them to read it. I just think
it's a nice book. It deserves to be more well
-known than it is. I don't know how many readers
today are familiar with it. or aware of it. But
my endorsement of it is pretty much 100%. I really
do recommend it. And that's not in any sense
to do with my interest in Vikings. I think it
does evoke a sort of Viking past, but that's
not the way in which it's most interesting or
most lovable as a book. But there's a lot. a
lot to enjoy in it and it's the kind of book
that I would happily return to. Yeah I think
because of that clear and obvious now that we've
kind of been discussing it, lack of obvious Viking
-ness. Like I say it doesn't mention any of the
north gods, it doesn't mention raiding, there's
no identifiable countries that are even reminiscent
to the world that we inhabit or know the Vikings
knew of today. So it's got that element of kindnessness.
And so I think it could be enjoyed in any age
going forward, just like how he says in the introduction
in my book, kind of like how humans are humans
no matter what age or era we're living in. And
I think that's yeah, I will definitely try it
on my five year old. And I'm so glad you've helped
me discover it. So thank you. Actually, I think
it's interesting you say the timelessness of
it, because that's definitely not the case with
the other. items that we're going to consider.
They very much belong to the mid and late 1980s,
I would say. So what's next then for the children's
book, Chris? Right, if we're proceeding chronologically.
our next item is the saga of eric the viking
so it's got exactly the same name the saga of
eric the viking from mosaic publishing in 1984
this is what was known at the time i believe
as interactive fiction and otherwise known as
a text adventure um which is something i had
i have a little bit of familiarity with from
my childhood i didn't tend to play on them much
myself but i was aware of them as someone who
played computer games in the 8 -bit era. I was
more into probably shoot -em -ups, platform games,
that sort of thing. Text adventures were what
it says, they were things that you read and you
would type instructions in. as a means of progressing
the adventure. So there might be graphics in
the way that you would have illustrations in
a book, but they would tend to be stick and you
wouldn't get to see them until you got to the
next part of the adventure until you made some
progress in the adventure. So yeah, I don't have
much experience of playing them. The last time
I played one would have been probably as a...
as a child, either on an 8 -bit or a 16 -bit
computer. I wasn't a big fan, but they did have
their fans. I believe there are still fans out
there who love the genre. It's pretty niche.
Have you got any background at all with these,
Becky? I have vague memories of playing a text
narrative game. And for those who are very much
children of the 21st century and don't have a
clue what we're on about, imagine a game where
it is just text and it's just like you approach
a door. Do you open the door or do you turn left?
And then you press the key or click on the mouse
and say, OK. And you do options. And it's very
much like a very Low -key simple, almost like
a D &D because it's all about your choice and
then where it takes you next. So there can be
multiple ways of playing it. I have vague memories
of being on either a computer at school or a
computer at home playing one and I can't remember
what the game was called but I remember the screen
was black and the text was either in white and
then the options were either in green or red
because you only ever had two maybe three options
at most. But interestingly enough there is Oh,
there is someone. I think it was called Mr. Taggart.
Let me see if I can get my steam up because there
is a text -based Viking game that's set in historical
Viking Age times that has been out for a while.
Just waiting for steam to load. And that's got
a name of... I'll find it in a second when steam
loads up. But yeah, it was really, really...
kind of a thing for those who like stories, who
like to personalise their adventure and have
the choice because it was kind of the game version
of Goosebumps for those who can remember the
Goosebumps books where kind of like you read
to page 12 and then it says okay turn to page
16 to see what happens next or turn to page 12
if you don't want to kind of like go that way
because of course that has a narrative. interactive
elements with it as well. Yes, the earlier version
of those kind of books that I read when I was
little were the Choose Your Own Adventure books
and also the Fighting Fantasy game books were
out at that point as well by Steve Jackson and
Ian Livingstone. So they were super popular and
influential when I was a kid. This game and other
text games, they leave the options very open,
don't they? Because often, once you've got your
next chunk of text to read through, at the end,
it just says, what next? It doesn't give you
a choice. So in principle, you can say anything
that you do next. But in practical terms, you
have to stumble across maybe one or two or three
options that will get you a result. So the experience
of playing these games I think once you've explored
everything you can, it can be very frustrating
for a 21st century gamer because you're thinking,
right, open door. And then it will say something
like, you can't do that. You think, right, well,
I'll go back to another area then and I'll look
in pot. And then often you have to try different
combinations of words to try and happen upon
the combination of words that the computer then
understands that will allow you to then press
on to the next part of the adventure. So it's
a real puzzle, both in terms of finding your
way through the adventure, but also working out
what to actually type in. Even if you've got
an idea of what you need to do next, you might
not have come upon the correct combination of
words to tell. that that is what you intend to
do next. So it's quite a different gaming experience.
And I played the, this game came out on various
platforms. It came out on the Commodore 64, ZX
Spectrum, BVC, Micro. I played it on the Amstrad
CPC version. I owned an Amstrad CPC 6128 as a
kid, so I thought, wow, this is great. I can
play it on the version that would have been on
my computer. You can play it online. That version
of it, you can play. So I played it, and I barely
made any progress at all. I explored the first
kind of area that you get to. I succeeded in
finding a horn and blowing the horn. and my crew
turned up, but then I couldn't work out how to
get on board the boat, Golden Dragon, which is
the same boat that features in the book. So I
managed to explore Eric's home village, but I
didn't get any further. But of course, in this
era of YouTube, you can watch someone completing
the game on YouTube. So I did that as well. So
I got to experience it. The thing I didn't experience
was death, because if you make the wrong choice
in the game, you can be killed off. But this
person, although he made some wrong turns, I
think in the course of about 40 minutes, he completed
the game. Oh, wow. But I didn't know, would you
like me to read the intro to the story, which
explains where the story is in relation to the
book? So you get your sleeve notes within your
cassette box. You get the notes and an introduction.
It says, this game is the second saga of Eric
the Viking, the famous warrior who lived a thousand
years ago. He owned a large farm in Norway beside
the North Sea and lived there with his family
and servants. Every summer, Eric's son sailed
off in the golden dragon to trade with the Scralings.
or steal their gold. And every Sunday his sons
asked Eric to come with them. But Eric thought
that he had seen enough strange lambs and always
refused. He was happy to run the farm instead
and swap tails with them in the smoky hall each
winter. One spring day, Eric wanted to check
the borders of his land and make sure that all
the sheep had been brought in for shearing. He
followed the river which flowed past his house
and soon reached the snow -capped mountains to
the east. Then he sat down for a rest. As Eric
noticed beneath the fir trees, he seemed to see
a vision. An army of strange creatures swarmed
over the farm. His wife managed to hide a few
treasures before she was caught. And then the
creatures dragged everyone away. All this time,
Eric couldn't move. Then he woke up. You must
play the part of Eric the Viking and find out
what has happened. Good luck. Dog meds, I'm calling
it dog meds. It turns out that I think I'm right
in saying that it does turn out that it is dog,
the dog fighters who have been and yes. that
have captured everyone from Eric's village and
taken them away. So the story isn't by Terry
Jones. Again, on YouTube, I found a nice clip
of him talking on breakfast TV about the computer
game and saying, more or less, oh, I couldn't
get very far on it. But my children did manage
to get the golden dragon out on the sea, and
they managed to sail around and have a wonderful
time. But I'm not very good at computer games.
But I urge everybody to buy it. And then the
interviewer says, oh, I understand there's a
movie on the cards as well of Eric the Viking.
Oh, yes, yes, Eric the Viking. We're hoping that
there will be a movie one day. And obviously,
that is five years in the future from when that
interview is taking place, four or five years
from that point. But that was interesting to
see that as a means of joining the dots between
the book. the game and then the film that results.
But the story within the game, the text is very
brief, with the exception of a couple of episodes.
It recycles many of the characters from the book.
So you encounter the enchantress again. Blind
Thor Killed, so Thor Killed obviously was blinded
in the book. He comes back, spent the strong
Ragnar Forkbeard. Gunnar Longshanks, who I think
crops up in the book, albeit briefly, as a member
of the crew. He's there. You encounter the dragon
of the North Sea. You meet the Enchanter's daughter.
which is in the story. And at some point, once
you've gathered items within your village, you've
gathered your crew by blowing the horn, you get
on board the golden dragon, you set sail. There
was a lot of toing and froing in the golden dragon.
You pick up a message that says, your family
are guarded by the dreadful dogfighters, Eric.
Al -Qasami can help. Al -Qasami? Him? Him. He
doesn't make a direct appearance, an indirect
one, because his dog, which is a magical dog,
appears on the ship and starts whisking, whirling
Eric around, kind of like he's about to throw
a sling. And it's his crewmen that eventually
work out, after three attempts of course, that
they should really look at the dog collar and
see what it was. which I thought made me laugh.
I thought magical dogs always wear collars and
with that they shout the names as call back your
hound and then the dog spirals off instead which
made me laugh even more because I thought if
they did that in the film that would just be
comedic. Yeah so the only features in the margins
are al -Qasami but that was interesting to me
because obviously it's this idea of I suppose
the mystical east but also the idea of the Muslim
world and that is a place the Vikings are aware
of and obviously there are there are journeys
to the Muslim world and the idea of scholarship
and knowledge in this case it's a it's a magician
called Al Qasami but again to a medievalist like
like Jones's familiarity with this idea that
there is knowledge and wisdom that's carried
from the ancient world and preserved in the Middle
East in this period. So yeah, he doesn't really
feature himself. It's just the spell hound that
he's sent to imperil every crew. But here, you
get to meet him. You get to meet him in the game.
He gets one of the biggest chunks of text, because
often it's just a few words. For instance, the
first chunk of text, Eric is on the mountainside.
The only exit is down to a path. What now? And
that's often the case. Eric is in the ice house.
So you don't get much. But for Al Qasami, you
get, Al Qasami greets you. So he's found in a
palace at the end of a golden road. Al Qasami
greets you with, beware, Viking scum. I am Al
Qasami, great invisible wizard. And then he gets
quite a big chunk and what you have to do and
I think this is playing with with Norse mythology
you have to get you have to make a ribbon and
You need to get the sound of a cat moving a woman's
beard the roots of a mountain Yeah, the breath
of a fish and the bird's spittle slightly as
the horse, wrong word Becky. The ingredients
for the Bines of Fenrir, oh that's awesome, that's
a proper thing from North Stratholme, that's
the first time it's been partnered with Eric
the Viking which I absolutely love because that
thing's always fascinated me because I thought
what imagination could come up with such ingredients,
modern imagination can but someone did thousands
of years ago. Yes well it does, it uses the name
the word Viking which again doesn't appear very
much in the saga of Eric the Viking. It features
that borrowing from Norse mythology. Also, Eric,
at some point you have to pray outside a church
and you hear a voice which says, I hear you,
son of Odin, and will open the door. And then
I think I've noted correctly, apparently he finds
a copy of this book in the church, which is a
bit meta. He finds a copy of the Saga of Eric
the Viking in the church. That's crazy. The other
little Easter egg really to tell you about, which
I was delighted by, given the year when this
came out, is you go to various locations, some
of them are from the book, one of them is Jorvik
Wharf. No way! Oh my gosh, that's awesome. I
salute the guys behind this game. They've done
their research. I really like what they're doing.
And you get an image actually of... I mean, the
images are very basic. What's nice about them
is they seem to be drawn on the screen as you
arrive in the location. I would imagine if you're
playing the whole game, it gets really frustrating
because it takes time for them to sort of appear.
And if you're going back and forth, try thinking,
oh my goodness sake, how do I... How do I catch
the dolphin's breath in the pot? And you're typing
in the wrong commands and all this sort of thing.
It would be very frustrating. But as you watch
someone play on YouTube, it's fine. And lo and
behold, just you get a little drawing of Copper
Gate type, you know, very rough approximations
of Copper Gate type buildings. So again - That's
the first time Yorby's ever been in a game. I
want to know that now. I'm going to have to go
Google it because that'd be fascinating. Quite
possibly, quite possibly. But I just thought
that was, yeah, a nice little inclusion. And
yeah, and it's not far from that until the end
of the game. It gives you a score. It's a percentage.
The playthrough I looked at, they only got 75%.
They didn't get the 100%. So there are clearly
other things that... to explore that sort of,
I guess, increases the longevity of the game
if you're a player. And it pronounces you a Norse
of the Year, which is a bit of a strange title
to bestow on someone. But that's your reward
for completing the game. You rescue your family,
obviously. You find the wolf who's guarding the
prison. that'll be why you need the ingredients
yes with the dog fighters get reach the prison
release your family and that's your that's what
you're told at the end and that's the that's
the game um but the the same company mosaic publishing
uh they also they had other they other properties
that they were licensed to produce games for.
So they, from what I can see, they did two Adrian
Mole games. I don't know if you're familiar with
The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole. I heard of the
books, but never read them. So I'm surprised
that they're all sort of games. In the 80s, I
remember watching the TV adaptation of it. And
also, Text Adventure of the Archers, the long
running radio for soap opera. Wow. How? Just
how? OK, fair enough. But again, you could probably
watch it. I'm not tempted to play any of those.
But yeah, you could probably watch a playthrough
online. Yeah, so that's the game, which I guess
then brings us onto the movie, 1989. Well, just
to end the game chat up, I've just found the
game that I was talking about that is a text
-based interactive narrative, and it's called
Choice of the Viking. It's available on Steam
and I'm sure it was invented and created by Declan
Taggart who I remember listening to at one symposium
or Viking conference and he did a huge bit of
research about how Thor is naturally connected
to Thunder and Lightning as we all think because
of Martin interpretation. But yeah, he made this
game and it's been on my theme wishlist for ages.
I just, because of life and my own academic pursuits,
I just haven't had the time to play it. But I
will do it because it's really re -inspired my
interest in that kind of aspect of narrative
and play. Yeah. Right, so yeah, the movie. Where
do we begin? What's your background with this
movie, Bethany? Oh, I saw it definitely over
a decade ago. Probably in my, not teenagers,
I'm going to say probably my early 20s. I enjoyed
it then. I literally haven't seen it since, but
then I don't often really, really watch films,
to be fair. But the main thing that stuck out
to me was mainly the ending, because in this
particular narrative of Eric the Viking, Eric's
got to... stop Ragnarok and he's got to go tell
the gods can you like please stop Ragnarok we
all want to live etc and so they get there and
he finds that the gods are all children and yet
the woman that he accidentally kills and feels
immense regret over is then he goes well what
do you expect gods are like this they're kind
of like they're not like you and me and and that
bit's always just stuck in my head it really
has yes i i have no background with this film
really I'd never seen it before. I can't really
tell you why. I didn't own a copy. I never got
round to seeing it. Terry Jones, at the time
of the release of the director's son's cut of
Eric the Viking, came to the Yorby Viking Festival
and that would have been in 2007 and there was
a city screening in York, but I wasn't at that
particular event. So it had just passed me by.
So I was curious to to watch it. I knew it didn't
have a great deal in common with the book. I
knew it didn't have a particularly strong reputation
that doesn't seem to be a great deal of love
for the film out there. I'd heard things about
it that sounded puzzling and I just couldn't
imagine how they would play out on film and actually
in a lot of ways I think watching the film it
did turn out to be as I imagine based on what
I've written. So I had no background with it,
but when we were talking about the podcast and
what we could talk about, and you were talking
about my background with Vikings, how I arrived
at liking or having interest in Vikings, I was
thinking back to the year when this came out.
I was thinking to myself, I didn't have a childhood
interest in Vikings. And when this came out,
1989, I was 10, nearly 11. It was the year I
went up to secondary school. So I was slightly
on the young side. But I did start secondary
school a year early. So it was a year for me
when I was, when you're 10, when you're 11, you
start to become aware of pop culture and take
an interest in it. the comics that were available,
the movies that were out, what's on TV, the music.
When you're that age, I think you develop a love
for certain things that sticks with you for the
rest of your life. 89, I mean the big movie in
89, and this has a little bit of significance
for this movie, the big blockbuster movie in
the summer of 89, so just before Eric the Viking
came out, was Tim Burton's Batman. And it was
huge. I think it's difficult to understand how
huge that movie was, but the hype around that
movie, everywhere you went, you would see the
Batman symbol. Not only toy shops, record shops,
it's everywhere. It's on cloning, it's in news
agents, it's on TV, it's being spoken about on
the radio. There was just sort of total saturation
of that movie in the summer of 1989. And I didn't
get to see it, of course, because it had a 12
certificate. And it's the first movie, I seem
to think, in... in britain that gets that bbfc
certification 12 really yeah well but when it
came out on video it was a 15 and that's exactly
the same for eric the viking in the cinema it
got a 12 and that so it would have been again
one of the first movies to get a 12 certificate
uh and on home release it got a 15 and terry
jones subsequently has expressed frustration
and unhappiness that he got the top certificate
because at various times he says, it's a children's
film. Other times he's a little bit more affluent
about that and says, well, it's for anybody.
Children will like it. Adults will like it. It's
a family film. But thinking where I was at that
stage in my life, I would absolutely have been
interested in seeing this film, I'm sure. When
I think back to my earliest memories of it, it
was feeling, well, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe
this isn't aimed at older people than me. I probably
wouldn't have gotten into the cinema to see it
at age 10 stroke 11. By the time it was on video,
it was a 15. It's definitely too old for me,
that audience that it's for. And this, I think,
is one of the one of the problems with Eric the
Viking, it's how it's perceived and within the
film itself, it isn't a film that is suitable
for children in many ways. And I've got two children,
I've got a 13 year old and a nine year old. I
wouldn't show it to either of them because I
wouldn't know how to explain some of its content.
And I think this, I think that the film is effectively
sunk by a number of factors. But that failure
to resolve, to craft it in such a way that it's
suitable for a young audience is the death blow.
And really, the death blow comes in the opening
scene, which we can talk about, but it never
really covers from that tonal problem, which
is perhaps it's a pity maybe there is something
that's worth recovering or revisiting within
the film. But we can sort of get onto that. But
I was thinking as well, well, I didn't really
have any awareness of Vikings in 1989. And then
I realised that that's not actually true. I think
1989, there was something quite interesting going
on with Vikings. of two instances that I was
aware of, but there might be others. This is
aside from Merit the Viking, but I've never asked
you this, Becky, and you may not want to disclose
this on the podcast. Are you a Doctor Who fan?
Fakily, vaguely. I remember watching when David
Tennant was around, all of it. I've been watching
Matt Smith, but then after that I kind of didn't
so I'm kind of like more of the modern era of
Doctor Who more than the classic original series
of Doctor Who. Okay well I'm gonna I'm gonna
destroy any street cred that I might I might
have once had I don't know very much but I was
a big Doctor Who fan and I I didn't discover
Doctor Who until 1988 that was the first time
I watched any Doctor Who and then 1989 and then
of course Doctor Who got cancelled for years
and years but one of the last stories was in
the Sylvester McCoy era of Doctor Who was called
The Curse of Fenrick And it stands up quite well
amongst, I mean, some of the Sylvester McCoy
stories are not good and they're not worth revisiting.
There are a couple that are worth having a look
at and the Curse of Femric is one of them. And
I had a little look at it again prior to this
podcast because I did have fond memories of it
and I have watched it with my kids. It's probably
a couple years ago now that I looked at it, but
it's got a strong Viking flavour. It's a bit
more than a strong plot. The story itself is
a bit of a mess. It's got all sorts of ingredients
thrown in, but it's got loads of Norse mythology
thrown in there as well. So I was aware of that.
This was a programme that I loved. So there is
a strong Viking element there. And at the same
time, as well, in the same year, one of my favorite
ever computer games came out and it was called
Myth History in the Making and that had a Viking
level, a Norse mythology level. It's a sort of
adventure game platform where you go through
different mythologies, you start out in Hades
I think and then you go through a a Greek level,
and then you're in a Viking level. You start
out on a longship. But it was a game that I thought
was beautiful to look at. It was very atmospheric.
It featured the kinds of effects I'd not seen
in an 8 -bit computer game before. Rain effects,
lightning effects, really, really evocative.
It was monochrome, but beautiful. beautifully
drawn graphics. But anyway, we don't need to
talk in depth about that. But this is just to
say that I think in 1989, there's something going
on with Vikings in popular culture, a brief sort
of revisiting of Viking Norse mythology. And
they crop up in another Sylvester McCoy, Ragnarok
crops up in another Sylvester McCoy story, but
let's go into that now. So yes, in terms of my
background with popular Vikings, there is something
going on in that in that year. Well I'm going
to surprise you I'm pretty sure either David
Tennant or Matt Smith, one of the two, one of
them they do have an episode with Vikings. I
remember because Facebook as you know brings
up memories and I'm sure at some point in the
last few months it's brought up my my tweets
from that time where I was like watching it live
and oh no they've got horns because they did
give the Vikings horned helmets which I will
forgive them for because it's a kids program.
But yeah, I wasn't impressed with that plot involving
Vikings. No, no, they never did Vikings very
much. They pop up in a, I think, an old William
Hartnell story called The Tine Meddler. There's
Viking characters. Yeah, there are Viking characters.
There's a horn helmet that features within the
story, I remember that. But no, they don't crop
up very much in classic Doctor Who. But yes,
Eric the Viking in the movie, I mean, I suppose
we're going to have to do it, aren't we, and
discuss the opening scene and how unpleasant
it is. When you go into this expecting family
film or a comedy, you're into the very, very
dark matter right from the get -go. Now that
you made me think of it, the few memories I have
of watching it, it is... almost the opposite
of the book. The book is kind of like Viking
minimal, like not 1 % Viking, anything. Whereas
this film, it's taken everything we think we
know or the stereotypical image of Vikings as
raiders, as attackers, as rapists, kidnappers,
killers, murderers, people who take the land,
burn houses, all about loot and the glory and
that kind of thing. And they've gone with that,
which... I can kind of see why because they weren't
doing the film for specifically children otherwise
they might have been more honest with the book
and I guess it depends on how many people were
involved in writing the script and how involved
therefore Terry Jones was and I assume he must
have to some degree either been happy with it
or they've made compromises in the artistic license
of retelling or maybe they've just said okay
we've got this whole story but we're just going
to borrow your title and stick it on. maybe it's
more of a labeling of Eric the Viking more than
a reflection at all of the book. I think the
movie, it's Terry Jones' project. It's written
by him. So it's not his thing. So oddly, with
something like the computer game... tonally and
thematically, far more in keeping with the book.
The film is this complete departure, but it is
a Terry Jones project. And the opening sequence,
the opening few scenes, depending on which version
of the film you see, are, as you say, that distillation
of macho, viking violence. And the very first
scene in whichever version of the film you watch
it's a rape scene or an attempted rape scene
and it's not entirely played for laughs but it
is played for at least some comedy initially
and I think tonally then that it's the film doesn't
really recover from that. And the worst violence
in those opening scenes is being meted out by
men against women. So not only have you got the
attempted rape in the opening sequence, in either
the second or the third scene, depending on whichever
version you use today, you've got the game in
the Viking hall of a woman who's pinned up by
her braids, and the Vikings are throwing axes
to try and cut through the braids to release
her from the board that she's in. that she's
been pinned to. And then when another woman tries
to intervene, probably the most kind of macho
of the Vikings, he's called Thorfinn, punches
her and sort of knocks her out. And the other
Vikings are laughing. But I think the effect
of all of this, as well as, I suppose it's the
idea that the... The comedy comes from the sheer
excess, the sheer Viking excess. Yes, the extreme
of everything. I can't believe that happened.
It's funny because I can't believe it happened.
It doesn't land well, and actually that's symptomatic.
I mean, the rest of the comedy in the film isn't
really problematic in the same way, but it isn't
a funny film. I think the only thing that made
me, there's only one bit that made me laugh.
or smile, I guess. It's when the, and this is
the skip ahead, it's when the, it's the scene
that's taken from the book when the dragon sneezes
because of the feathers that are up its nostrils
and the ship is propelled through the sky and
one of the Vikings falls out to his death and
someone looks over the side and says, who was
that? And someone else responds, oh, that was
Leif the Lucky. And that's the only, that's the
only film that made me laugh. If you're going
into expecting a Monty Python film, some of it
is a bit Python -esque, but it's not... I don't
think that people... It may be a question of
timing, and Terry Jones talks about how he didn't
have control over the editing process, which
ordinarily in a comedy film, as an editor, you
need to think about comic timing. And it may
be a failure in the editing process, but... I
didn't laugh very much in the course of the film.
Yeah, it's what I guess you could call not aged
well with the way society in our view of the
Vikings were also kind of like how men and women
are in today's society has changed. Certainly
making me think back to even like the modern.
revolution that was kind of like History Channel's
Vikings TV series. I know that shows them raiding
and kidnapping and pillaging, but I don't actually
amend the much raping scene directly in it unless
I've just blanked it from my mind just because
fourth wall and it wasn't real and that kind
of thing. But I do wonder if the direction that
they took was so like kind of the representation
depicting the Vikings and their behavior and
the way they viewed the world and how they could
do these things in quotation marks. is maybe
linked to how the public perceived Vikings at
that time. Yeah. Because, of course, there was
kind of like the great kind of like Kirk Douglas
film of the Vikings. So that was before this
one, wasn't it? Kind of right in the 60s, 70s.
Late 50s, late 50s that one, yeah. Late 50s,
even earlier. So there might be people around
that still remember that film and thought, OK,
Vikings are big, burly blokes with kind of like
axes, swords and leather and tons of fur. I think
that's absolutely correct. I haven't made that
connection. I think you're absolutely right.
And again, I think that that does, although it's
not as graphic, sexual violence does feature
in that as something that the Vikings are doing
as part of their raid. So yes, I think that is
probably in the public consciousness about, you
know, if you're talking about Vikings, this is
the kind of material that you're talking about.
But I think You know, even in in 89, I think
this is this is behind behind the curve. I understand
why I think partly I was thinking about why why
deal with Vikings in this period. And and we're
not that far off in 1989 from the big debate
about political correctness. And I think at this
time you get the arrival of this figure of the
new man. And I think Eric the Viking, in a sense,
is this idea of a new man. He's a man who's in
touch with his feelings. He's not an actual man.
And I think that's maybe why this seemed like
a timely story to tell. I think at this moment
in time, in the late 80s and then into the 90s,
you're starting to get the beginnings of this
debate about what is a man? What is masculinity?
And you're starting to get those... those programs
where men go out into the woods and strip down
to the waste and cry and hug and all of that
kind of thing, you know, to explore what is primal
man, what is masculinity. And then conversely,
you know, how does a man get in touch with his
sensitive side? You know, is it the case that
a man can be a home husband and, you know, do
those traditional things? Can a man raise a baby?
And they've got films like Three Men, maybe around
that time as well, haven't you, and that kind
of thing. So I think that... probably fits in
with that thinking which now probably seems quite
basic and sophisticated but at the time this
was revolutionary stuff is what is it what is
a new man and I think yeah it certainly makes
me think that because I can't remember much of
the film because it's been so long ago but Eric
was one of the Vikings that kind of like he doesn't
like getting violence he feels regret about harming
and causing the death of the woman And that's
kind of like something people think that the
Vikings didn't feel, because we kind of like,
we don't put them in that human framing. We think
of them as the opposite of what we are, even
though we're human all the time. And it certainly
makes me think back to a more modern author,
of course, which is more famous for her Vikings
and the deal of Holdham, which was of course,
Waseeda Cowell. And she has a similar approach,
certainly in her book with Hiccup, being a Viking
that isn't tall, that isn't strong. right he's
clever but he's not the strongest he doesn't
really want to go raiding. Of course in the films
that he's now famous for both kind of like the
animated animation series which I have watched
absolutely loved and the real life version which
yeah I saluted it was it was an honest it was
an honest realisation they made a few changes
I'm not going to go into too much because I don't
want to spoil it but it's more dialogue options
and the way they describe things that were not
in the animation series. But it's almost like
talking about someone being different, and that
change, and whether it can be accepted. Because
actually, in Glacier de Cal's first book, How
to Train Your Dragon, there's two large dragons,
and Hiccup's little dragon, Toothless, because
he's not a gigantic night fury. He's a tiny little
thing, because he picks the runt of the group
in a clutch of dragon eggs, because that's just
Hiccup. He just gets the odd ones out. It's Toothless's
idea to go fly up, put pillows in the big dragon's
nose, and make them sneeze, and make them go
away. And I thought, that's the same motif going
on there. And of course, I don't know if Christina
Cowell is remembering. Maybe. Maybe she's got
experience or had memories of reading this book.
Or whether it's just because it's such a simple
but brilliant idea that doesn't use a license.
But yeah, it's certainly an interesting film.
Maybe not a recommended watch in today's era
and today's society. But I definitely recommend
the book. Oh, yes, yes. The film, as I say, these
were my first viewings of the film. Also, I bought
the comic book, there was a comic book accompaniment,
which is a very faithful version of the same
story. But again, it's like I would have been
reading the Asterix books at around the same
time. It's similar in style to those. The artwork
within this is by Graham Thompson. I thought,
I didn't think I knew Graham Thompson, but I
do, because have you come across Wozgidge puzzles?
No. He saw puzzles, but the picture on the box
is only a clue to what the result is. picture
will be. You don't assemble the picture that's
on the box. You assemble either the same scene
but later or the same scene but early or something
like that. That sounds frustrating. They're good
fun and they've done a nice spin on the idea
of a jigsaw but Graham Thompson, who I believe
is no longer with us, he was the artist. behind
this book. But yes, it's very faithful to the
film. And again, that makes you wonder, well,
you know, I wouldn't want my children reading
this, particularly the first scene. The rest
of it, by and large, you know, it's fine. It's
that first scene that really, I think, nudges
this into darker, more adult territory. Yeah,
on my second viewing of the film, so I first
watched the theatrical cut, then there was this
director's son's cut that came out in 2006, I
think it was, that was an attempt to rescue the
film because Jones was so unhappy with how it
had turned out and there were various factors
at play, but he lost control of the editing process.
I think that's what he feels was a large factor
in the film's failure. From what I can see of
the records from the box office, it was a...
a huge flop. It couldn't have flopped more badly.
So it was re -cut. When I watched the director's
sons cut, I emerged from that feeling a little
bit more positively disposed towards the film.
It's not radically different from the theatrical
cut. They have made some changes to the audio
because the audio is very poor in the sequence
when they encountered the Dragon of the North
Sea. So they cleaned that up a little bit. They've
restructured some of the opening scenes, reordered
them. So the second scene in the theatrical cut
becomes the third scene in the direct sun's cut.
And they've speeded up some of the scenes towards
the end as well when the crew reaches Asgard
stroke Valhalla. So I did feel better about it.
thematically it is interesting and there are
there are certain strands that carry through
the film that maybe you only spot on multiple
viewings so you get the pairings and the oppositions
the opposition between Ravensfjord where Eric
comes from that nightmarishly violent Viking
world that we've been discussing and then hi
Brazil which is a land that they arrive at almost
by accident but they do need to go on their on
their quest to end the age of Ragnarok. High
Brazil, which is at the other end of the spectrum.
It's ruled over by King Arnold, who's played
by Kerry Jones. They are so peaceful and so intellectual
that when the island is eventually destroyed,
they can't rescue themselves because they are
so wedded to a nonviolent philosophy and way
of living that they are sort of completely completely
ridiculous and ultimately doomed. You've also
got the threads that run through about, we've
got the very unpleasant opening scene but it
does set the mission because it means that Eric
wants to go to the hereafter to rescue the woman
accidentally killed and that he thinks that he's
in love. So that is sort of a necessary setting
up. It could maybe have been done differently
but that is why he rejects violence, although
he does have to fight battles in the course of
the film. And then he goes on this quest to rescue
Helga. But in the course of his adventure, he
meets Ord on High Brazil, who is a woman who
he has a more authentic love affair with. So
I think that's interesting that Helga. So their
encounter is in the course of a violent raid.
It's a violent encounter. It's not possible that
they could be in love. There is some kind of
sympathy between them. You feel they want to
protect and rescue each other. But the more real
relationship is the one that develops with Ord,
who is a more assertive, more emancipated woman,
a more experienced woman. She's a sexually experienced
woman where prior to meeting her is a virgin.
So that's quite interesting, this more mature,
more interesting relationship that develops in
the course of the film. The idea of that parent
and child relationship as well, which is almost
pushed into the margin. You've got the character
of Sven, the berserker played by Tim. Yes, I
remember that one. And he's got a problem relationship
with his own father. And there's another problem
as well in that it's rumored by Thorfinn that
Sven's granddad didn't get to Valhalla. Sven's
granddad, who was also a berserker, died in his
bed. And this causes a punch up, a fist fight
between Sven and Thorfinn, and actually gives
Erik the excuse to, he really misleads his crew
to say, we need to go on a quest to find Valhalla
and Asgard would be the first mortals to set
foot there and will probably get killed on the
journey but you know the Vikings are up for this
because this sounds great it's an eventual probably
get killed but also it will allow Step to prove
once and for all that his granddad did get to
Valhalla, to prove this beyond Dad's but it turns
out that Sven's dad who's also a berserker he's
this slightly nerdy berserker who's got this
slightly nasal voice. He sounds more like a,
you know, a fussy office worker of that type
than a berserker. But he frustrates Sven by always
sort of criticising him and pointing out, no,
that's not what you do to be a berserker. And
it's the fussiness that drives Sven into a berserk
rage and causes him to sort of headbutt his way
through a building. But he sort of wins his father's
respect in the course of the film. But they do
find in Valhalla, they do find the granddad.
But it turns out that Sven's dad had exactly
the same problem relationship with his own father.
He calls him a bastard, I can't stand you. And
that's never really resolved. But I think there
is some resolution between Sven and his father.
through the adventures. So it's those things
that actually are quite nicely drawn. But I didn't
notice them on the first viewing. The first thing
I just came out of it thinking, what an almighty
mess. Some of it isn't well executed. The drawing
looks bad. The scale of it is good, but it looks
like a big puppet. The fight sequences are clunky.
There's unfortunate bits like the slave drivers
on Halfdan, the Black's ship. So Halfdan is one
of the sort of recurring villains in the story,
who is a Japanese slave driver and he's only
really there so that jokes. that sort of inverts
western racism can be played out on screen but
it's not again it's not it's not funny and it
doesn't it doesn't land well you know maybe that
would have would have seemed less problematic
at the time that's another way in which it shows
its age as a product of the of the 80s so I don't
want to you know I feel bad in a way shooting
it down but Like I say, it took a couple of viewings
for me to maybe appreciate the good parts of
it. And it took reading and hearing other people
gloss the film for me to think, OK, I'll look
at it in those terms and maybe come away with
a different appreciation of it. The sequence
of going over the edge of the world looks good.
When they land in Asgard, that looks That looks
nice, I would imagine would be good on the big
screen. The production design of Asgard, you've
got those church -type details carved into the
pillars of the Hall of the Gods. So the production
design, it does veer between, you know, doesn't
look very good to stuff that does look good and
clearly, you know, there's a budget for some
of this to be captured. I do feel a bit conflicted
about it. I'm glad I've seen it now. It's not
a complete write -off, but it's, yeah, it's not
a family film. No, no, it's, yeah, it's had its
time, it had its moment. as brief as it was and
the reason why many people don't talk about it
or remember it is for all the reasons we have
discussed and the fact that society and our view
of the Vikings and ourselves hasn't just moved
on a lot more because it's like jokes jokes have
an expiry date they don't humor isn't it doesn't
always move with society jokes have a period
of the time and they fit that period um whereas
the book the book is timeless it's definitely
it I guess you could give it the word classic.
It is a classic children's book and it's marvellously
simple, fantastical, full of adventure. Not really
many scary bits. I don't think I have yet to
see or find out if my five year old will be scared
of the dogmen or not. She has recently become
scared of zombies after seeing a very badly animated,
simple animation as well. And it's kind of like...
a Japanese or a Chinese cartoon on Netflix involving
zombies, but she's now paranoid that there are
zombies in rooms where there are lights. Right.
If anyone has answers, let me know. She got long
hair because there is a creature that lives in
your hair in the book, isn't there? The Snatch
Troll. That's maybe the most sinister. I think
if you're a child with long hair, you might be
worried that you've got a Snatch Troll living
in your... living in your hair. Although the
Snatch Troll gives themselves away. They give
themselves away, don't they, by making things
disappear in an inexplicable way. So I think
you'd get warning if you did have a Snatch Troll
in your hair. Something would have gone missing,
whether it was your cup of tea or the slippers
you're wearing on your feet. It could be anything.
But I think she'd be all right. I don't think
there's too much in there that would play on
a child's on a child's mind really I don't know
all children are different but yeah don't don't
give her the comic book but yeah the book from
1983 is uh is fine yeah well she's actually recently
picked up as her bedtime story um a nice children's
story that I picked up on my big debut in Norway
last summer called the little troll and it's
like a classic Norwegian story it's got beautiful
artwork really kind of like classic beautiful
artwork because not all children's books have
beautiful artwork these days sometimes it's just
flat 2d squiggles but it's all about trolls in
all the various guys is some with multiple heads
i mean i remember when we first read it when
i came back from bulway there's a troll that
has a troll woman that has three heads but only
one eye and i share the eyeball between the heads
which made me immediately think of kind of like
the fates from Greek mythology um but yeah she
seems fine with that that's not given a nightmare
but strangely a badly animated zombie on Netflix,
for all places, has. But there we go. As I said,
child psychology. If anyone has the answers,
let me know. I'd love to know how to work within
every evolving child's mind. But wow, we have
talked so much. And I really hope that this has
enlightened our audience, viewers and listeners,
and encouraged you all to do go out and get the
book by Toby Jones, illustrated by Michael Foreman,
the saga of Eric the Viking. You can get either
the standard classic version that Chris had,
or you might still be able to get the 30th. special
anniversary edition with a nice full word in
by Terry Jones himself and of course the extra
pictures and if you've listened to now on our
audio platforms do join us on YouTube and you
will see the beautiful artwork that pops up during
our discussion to give you a taster of what the
artwork is like. Amber thank you so much we have
talked about a lot and I've really really really
enjoyed it. Yes me too thank you Becky it's been
it's been great talking to you and and revisiting
particularly particularly the book, but I have,
as I say, I've enjoyed all of the, The Viking
and all of its incarnations. So it's been a lot
of fun. Yeah, it's been really nice to almost
like look back at how Vikings represented at
different points up until now. And of course,
we all know kind of like what TV series and films
are doing with Vikings now and going forward.
But it's nice to see that transition and how
things have changed and how they could be bad
and also could be good in the case of the book.
So thank you once again for your time, Chris.
Thank you. And of course, if you want more Valhalla
Conversations, do hit subscribe wherever you're
watching or listening today. This is episode
20, quite a milestone, and I've got more guests
lined up, recordings to come. I'm going to attempt
to drop a new episode every two weeks, but bear
with, there is the Christmas period coming up.
But I have got a long list of guests. I just
need time to get them all on. But yes, thank
you very much for listening and watching wherever
you are today, and we shall see you again in
Valhalla soon for more conversations of all things
Norse. Thank you very much for listening to this
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