WEBVTT

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Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,

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otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am

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a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the

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history, culture and mythology of the Viking

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Age and I have been on an endless quest for more

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ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North

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with those who have been inspired by Viking Age

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history and North mythology in their creative

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works or those who have studied the sagas and

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archaeology and review. how such subjects are

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being presented to modern audiences today. If

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you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla

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and I hope you stay for the conversation. everyone

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to the Valhalla Conversations podcast where we

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talk all things Norse, whether it's historical

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or mythological, a bit of both, whether it's

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artifacts, sagas, poetics, excavations, new discovery,

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new research, or of course modern interpretations

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from film, comics, books, TVs, games, TV series,

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artwork, you name it. If it's been done, I'll

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try and get it on because if it's Norse, I kind

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of want to talk about it. And with this episode

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being our 20th episode, we've kind of picked

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something that's actually also had its own special

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anniversary of late, which is the saga of Eric

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the Viking, a children's book written by the

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late comedian and actor of sorts, Perry Jones

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of the Monty Python group. And I'm delighted

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to welcome my special guest this week. or this

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month, I should say. It's both week and month,

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depending on which way it drops. It's Chris Tuckley.

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Welcome, Chris Tuckley. Hi, Becky. Thanks for

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inviting me. You're very welcome. And thanks

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for joining me on this journey of discovering

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about Eric the Viking. Of course, I grew up knowing

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the comedic film that the Monty Python team did

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and didn't realize that the book actually came

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before the film, interestingly enough. Yes, well,

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actually, Eric the Viking is several things,

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isn't it? And we're going to four or five possibly.

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And we're going to explore each of these various

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versions and incarnations in our conversation.

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And I have a bit of a background with Eric the

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Viking, but not much of one. So this really was

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a deep dive and me coming to this material afresh.

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It's quite new to me, really. Well, I appreciate

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your dedication to the cause on this particular

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episode. But viewers who have not come across

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you before, perhaps in other aspects of your

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work and career, can you tell us what you're

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currently working on? Yes, well, I'm currently

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project manager for a National Lottery Heritage

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Fund funded project at Selby Abbey, the wonderful

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Selby Abbey in North Yorkshire. So it's a £1

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.5 million project. It's keeping the works, repairs

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to part of the Abbey fabric. but it's also community

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engagement and it's also a programme of training

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and development for the wonderful team of volunteers

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at Selby Abbey and also the staff there. So it's

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a new role for me, it's one I'm tremendously

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excited about and Selby Abbey is such a spectacular

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place to work. I'd recommend to your listeners

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if they haven't visited Selby Abbey before, it's

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well worth the trip, it's a really beautiful

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location. Yes, because of course I come from

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that part of the area kind of like North Yorkshire

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that kind of area of course we all think of kind

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of like Revo Abbey But never think of Selby Abbey

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and I've heard of Selby But I think I've actually

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ever been to Selby having grown up in North Yorkshire

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for a lot of my life. Well, it's Selby Abbey

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church, well the church there, it's a parish

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church now, it was the church of Selby Abbey

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and very few Abbey churches survived the dissolution,

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so you mentioned you mentioned Revo which is

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essentially in ruins, but the Selby Abbey has

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been through massive changes and various disasters

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over the centuries, but it has survived and it's

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kept its beauty. But there aren't many of those

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abbey churches that actually survived the dissolution.

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I suspect in the case of Selby Abbey it's because

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it was needed as a parish church for the town

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of Selby. That's interesting. Gosh, there's a

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whole area there that people would probably deep

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dive into about the kind of the history of the

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abbeys all over not just the solution but how

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they became what they were before then and then

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what happened to them afterwards yes i was thinking

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a little bit as well given given the theme of

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your podcast about the sort of the any any viking

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connections with selby and selby really it really

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came into being at the time of the the norman

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conquest and actually the abbey was founded at

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the time of the harrying of the north so it comes

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into being, it's a French monk from Auxerre who

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has a vision of Saint Germain and then travels

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to Selby with a relic of Saint Germain and establishes

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a community at Selby and then apparently if the

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foundation legend is to be believed that's when

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William the Conqueror comes into the picture

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and gives Selby its foundation charter and that's

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that's the beginning then of Selby Abbey so the

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the official story that the monks told was that

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it was it was based on a on a vision and a monk

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going on this essentially stole a relic from

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his from his home community and then with guided

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by these visions from Saint Germain jumps on

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a boat travels over to England has various journeys

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through England until he sees another vision

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which indicates where where his community should

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be established. But given the year of the foundation,

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1069, and given what was going on within that

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area of England, which obviously has its allegiances

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more with the Viking world, Scandinavia, it makes

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me think that maybe, you know, this isn't necessarily

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an accident or a God given mission. Maybe there's

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a little bit more. going on there and a reason

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for this Norman creation within Yorkshire. So

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yeah, there may be other Viking stories in Selby

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to come to light, but obviously I'll keep you

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posted on those, Becky, as we go. I suppose the

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other thing to say about me is that I've got

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an interest in pop culture Vikings and that's

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something I've developed over the years. I've

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been working in the museums and heritage world

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for coming on for 25 years now and a big chunk

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of that has been working the Orbi Viking Centre

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of course so I do have an interest in Vikings

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and therefore I've got an interest in this particular

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incarnation of a public Viking, a popular Viking,

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although maybe didn't turn out to be as popular

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as his creator would have wanted. I'm interested

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in this very 1980s Viking, Eric the Viking. Yes,

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it's really quite surprising how little known

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this book is, I suppose. So I guess we should

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begin with the beginnings of, and as we mentioned,

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things of Eric the Viking existed before the

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Monty Python film. So what existed first then,

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Chris? Well, the first item really on the list

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is the saga of Eric the Viking, so the children's

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book by Terry Jones. My edition, I think it's

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still in print, it's been reprinted many times

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over the years. It has a strong reputation as

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a piece of children's fiction. It's well -liked,

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it's a respected book. So my copy is a Puffin

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edition from 1988. It first appeared in print

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in 1983. It won the Children's Book Award. It's

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illustrated by Michael Foreman, who apparently

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worked on multiple books with Terry Jones. I

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wasn't a reader of Terry Jones. as a child, so

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I didn't come across these in my childhood. I

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would have been within the target demographic,

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I think, because in 1983 I was four and five.

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So actually the kind of book that it is, I think

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I was probably part of the intended audience

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at that time when it first appeared in print.

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But it was preceded by another book called fairy

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tales. So these are Terry Jones's fairy tales.

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And Eric the Viking, you've probably noticed,

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is dedicated to Terry Jones's son, Bill. Fairy

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tales have been dedicated to his daughter. So

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I think he wanted to do the same for his daughter

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as he did for his son. But his son expressed

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a preference for linked stories. Apparently the

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book of fairy tales aren't linked. And when he

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discussed this with his son, his son said, no,

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I don't want random fairy tales that don't have

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any sort of linking device or linking narrative.

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He had a preference for a linking device that

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would connect all of the stories. I've heard

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Terry Jones speaking about this. You can find

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him speaking about this in various places. I

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can't recall where I saw this now. It might be

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in the sleeve notes for the Viking DVD, but you

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can find him online on YouTube talking about

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Eric the Viking as well. He visited the Vikings

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exhibition at the British Museum in February

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to July 1980, which was a very, very influential

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exhibition. when it was conceived off, I don't

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know, but I don't think that it's an incident

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that it came into being while the Coppergate

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excavations were happening in York. All of the

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material, the new material was being brought

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to light for the first time. And I think some

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of that may have been on display in that exhibition

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in London. I've not got hold of the exhibition

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catalogue, but I think some of that went on display

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in London. And this is around the time that Viking

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exhibitions were happening in York as well. So

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there was a flurry and there was a Madness Madnesson

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presented a TV documentary about Vikings at the

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time. There was a lot of interest in the early

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80s about Vikings. Obviously then the Viking

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Centre came into being in 1984. So that's there

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in the DNA of the saga of Eric the Viking, this

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rising public interest, I guess. in the Vikings

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in England. And actually that exhibition at the

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British Museum was the last major Viking exhibition

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there prior to the one that happened in 2014.

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I didn't visit that one, but that was the Viking

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Life and Legend. Yes, I was very fortunate in

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that I worked as a College Librarian and I was

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great friends with a history teacher and they

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needed an extra staff member. And so he said,

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I'll recruit you. And so I got to go down with

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all these history geeky students and absolutely

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live my best life down at my job. I didn't see

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the 1981. I didn't see the 2014 one. But I seem

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to recall that Gareth Williams, the curator of

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the of the 2014 exhibition in a talk he gave

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in York, said that he had been as a child. I

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think he was still a child at that point to the

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to the Vikings. in 1980. So it was an influential

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exhibition, both in terms of popular culture

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and then people who went on to work on Vikings

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in a sort of professional academic scholarly

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way. So I think that's really the background

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to the book. We can talk about sort of the flavor

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of the book, but I think that fairy tales particularly

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are relevant aren't they? I mean what's your

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background with this book Becky? Well I have

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the 2013 edition which is the 30th special 30th

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anniversary edition so it's a tad older than

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me now. I was born in the late 1980s so I just

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missed the first exhibition and all this jazz

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and I didn't really get into Vikings until my

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early teenage years anyway. But this is like

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the special, it's kind of like it's got like

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a paper map effect on the front cover. It's still

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got all the illustrations in. And of course,

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it's got the lovely foreword by Terry in the

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front. Because I believe does your book have

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the same foreword? No, I don't think it does.

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No, I don't think it does. I will indulge you

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and our listeners and viewers. I will read it

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because it actually covers quite a bit on what

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you've talked about, especially because he does

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mention about how he wrote the first book for

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his daughter. But it also illuminates his own

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encounters with Norse sagas, which I found fascinating,

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because I thought, oh, he's actually got a genuine

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interest. He's not just influenced by all the

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popularity. So here's everyone sitting comfortably.

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In the words of the late Terry Jones in 2013,

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this book is the result of my dissatisfaction

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with the Icelandic sagas, the first time I read

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them. I expected them to be tales of wonder and

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adventure, full of weird monsters and demons

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roaming the earth in search of mortals to destroy.

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I thought they would be full of fantasy and invention

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and flights of the imagination. The first Icelandic

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saga I read was Njáls saga, and apologies if

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I can't pronounce Njáls names, it's N -J -A -L

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-S, and found it on first reading to be a rather

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pedestrian account of family feuds. how somebody

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stole another's farmer's chicken, and how that

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farmer then stole the first farmer's cow, and

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how the first farmer then stole the second farmer's

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horse, and how the second farmer then murdered

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the first farmer's child or wife or near relative.

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I am parodying of course. Moreover, Danielle's

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saga is full of passages like this. A man named

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Hoskald lived there, the son of Dala Coll, collar

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from the Dala district. His mother was Thorga,

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the daughter of Thorstein the Red, who was the

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son of Olaf the White. His father was Ingjald

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Helgeson. Ingjald's mother was Thorga, and it

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only goes on. And so on and so on. And I found

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it hard to get past such passages, and I agree

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with him. That's what I found. I only found one

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saga that I liked, and that was Gritte's saga.

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Gritte and the Strong. We eventually parodied

00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.299
the Niel saga in an episode of Monty Python called

00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:39.190
Mjolnir's saga. Eric Newell can't mount his horse

00:15:39.190 --> 00:15:41.389
because of a voice that is constantly reading

00:15:41.389 --> 00:15:44.690
out the endless list of lineages. The saga eventually

00:15:44.690 --> 00:15:47.750
gets taken over by the North Malden mayor's office,

00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:50.490
thinly disguised as the North Malden Icelandic

00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:53.269
Saga Society, trying to attract business and

00:15:53.269 --> 00:15:58.230
investment to North Malden. In 1979, I had written

00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:00.309
a book called Fairy Tales for my daughter Sally

00:16:00.309 --> 00:16:03.580
when she was five. When my son Bill reached five,

00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.440
I obviously had to write a book for him. We had

00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.700
just visited an exhibition of Vikings at the

00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:11.080
British Museum, so I asked Bill if he would like

00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.659
a story about Vikings and he said yes. This gave

00:16:14.659 --> 00:16:16.899
me the chance to write the sagas as I would have

00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:18.960
liked them to have been, full of flights of the

00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.620
imagination and adventurous exploits, monsters

00:16:21.620 --> 00:16:24.279
and creatures and magic and fantasy. Although

00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:26.830
since then... I have changed my mind about the

00:16:26.830 --> 00:16:30.250
Icelandic sagas. I was given the complete sagas

00:16:30.250 --> 00:16:32.789
of the Icelanders in five volumes and have found

00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:35.529
them to be really fascinating. The tales are

00:16:35.529 --> 00:16:38.409
indeed told in prosaic way, but they are fascinating

00:16:38.409 --> 00:16:41.730
because of this. They are glimpses of lives seen

00:16:41.730 --> 00:16:44.509
700 to 1 ,000 years ago without the artifice

00:16:44.509 --> 00:16:48.129
of plot or the adornments of rhetoric. Lives,

00:16:48.129 --> 00:16:50.509
moreover, lived on the margins of civilization

00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:53.250
that show people to have been just as noble and

00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:56.330
virtuous, devious and cunning as any people are

00:16:56.330 --> 00:16:59.590
today. The Icelandic sagas show us that we are

00:16:59.590 --> 00:17:02.350
human beings, are the same the world over and

00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:06.329
whatever age we live in. Thank goodness. The

00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:09.490
end. That's lovely. Presumably that's from 2013

00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:11.750
then, if that's the 30th anniversary book. And

00:17:11.750 --> 00:17:14.789
that, as far as I know, is his last word on the

00:17:14.789 --> 00:17:18.619
saga about the Viking, the book. So that's really

00:17:18.619 --> 00:17:20.319
interesting to hear, isn't it? It's probably

00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:23.140
worth mentioning as well, isn't it, Becky, that

00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:26.680
the time of recording that has just been, I think

00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.319
last week, the official biography of Terry Jones

00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.700
has hit bookshelves. And it's called Seriously

00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:37.420
Silly, The Life of Terry Jones. It's by Robert

00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:40.799
Ross. And I've not had a chance to have a look

00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.269
at that yet. presumably they'll be content on

00:17:44.269 --> 00:17:47.230
Eric the Viking and Terry Jones's feelings about

00:17:47.230 --> 00:17:49.349
it in there. But you spotted something else as

00:17:49.349 --> 00:17:51.450
well, didn't you, that I hadn't blocked in terms

00:17:51.450 --> 00:17:58.650
of celebrating the life of Terry Jones? In his

00:17:58.650 --> 00:18:02.849
hometown. Oh yes, yes his hometown. It was a

00:18:02.849 --> 00:18:04.730
BBC article I read probably the same week that

00:18:04.730 --> 00:18:06.910
you messaged me about the biography coming out

00:18:06.910 --> 00:18:12.190
that his famous kind of like character type is

00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:14.910
a naked pianist and so they're going to make

00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:18.089
a statue of him naked at a piano in his hometown

00:18:18.089 --> 00:18:21.609
which I think is it's probably that kind of like

00:18:21.609 --> 00:18:26.630
tier higher than the one from Walkman Wise. So

00:18:26.630 --> 00:18:31.269
it does seem a really a great moment doesn't

00:18:31.269 --> 00:18:34.410
it that we've got the Terry Jones being being

00:18:34.410 --> 00:18:36.730
remembered and celebrated in the news again.

00:18:37.540 --> 00:18:40.559
we're looking looking back at his his eric the

00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.680
viking in time for this for this podcast so yeah

00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.640
that that's um i've not i've not heard that forward

00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.220
before i've heard about the um that there was

00:18:51.220 --> 00:18:54.460
a nyarl saga inspired monty python sketch but

00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:56.640
i hadn't seen it from your your reading of that

00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.200
account yeah just just uh just in the written

00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.200
account of it it sounds really funny So it's

00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.799
like they were doing what Norsemen are recently

00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:10.740
doing. That Scandinavian cold, kind of like cold

00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.460
and cunning as I call it, comedy on Netflix about

00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:15.779
Vikings. Seems like Python were doing it way

00:19:15.779 --> 00:19:22.500
before, way, way before. Go on, sorry. I was

00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:24.380
just going to say certainly as a children's book,

00:19:24.980 --> 00:19:27.740
I really enjoyed it. Really, really enjoyed it.

00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:31.759
Yeah, well, my background with the book is that,

00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.339
as I said, I didn't read it as a child. I first

00:19:33.339 --> 00:19:35.920
picked it up maybe seven or eight years ago.

00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:39.559
I got a secondhand copy from an Oxfam bookshop.

00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:44.480
And yes, really enjoyed it. It wasn't what I

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:50.980
expected. It is a fairy tale in terms of its

00:19:50.980 --> 00:19:56.299
feel, its structure, but it is a linked series

00:19:56.299 --> 00:20:02.430
of fairy tales. The language used is very plain.

00:20:02.630 --> 00:20:05.650
It is reminiscent from what I recall of Grimm's

00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:09.549
fairy tales. Very, very plain language. Very

00:20:09.549 --> 00:20:14.329
little descriptive writing. Lots of metaphor

00:20:14.329 --> 00:20:17.430
and symbolism of the kind that you might encounter

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:22.049
in fairy tales. In the course of Eric's adventures,

00:20:22.549 --> 00:20:25.329
things tend to happen in threes. So there'll

00:20:25.329 --> 00:20:28.029
be a problem. They'll try solution one. It won't

00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:29.890
work. They'll try solution two. It won't work.

00:20:29.950 --> 00:20:31.849
And then they'll try solution three. And then

00:20:31.849 --> 00:20:35.470
they'll get a different kind of outcome. I noticed

00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:38.130
as well that the text often addresses the reader.

00:20:38.349 --> 00:20:40.789
So maybe this is, again, when you're writing

00:20:40.789 --> 00:20:45.250
a book for your child, you think about reading

00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:49.190
it aloud. Yes, yes I got that very distinctly

00:20:49.190 --> 00:20:51.089
and I thought oh maybe I should try this in my

00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:56.430
favour and see what she thinks. Yeah you should

00:20:56.430 --> 00:21:01.490
try it and see what she thinks of it. So sometimes

00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:05.009
it addresses the reader so what do you think

00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:09.009
at various points? Not often but it does do that.

00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:12.250
There's very little character development in

00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:18.160
a sense. the Viking characters are largely interchangeable.

00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:20.880
You maybe get a little bit more development of

00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:25.920
Eric in that he is repeatedly tested. He proves

00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.559
his worth as a leader. He clearly learns something

00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:34.500
in the course of his adventures. And the other

00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:37.940
thing, and again, I think this echoes with what

00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:41.240
you said, what you read from the foreword, is

00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.710
there isn't a lot of period detail. in there.

00:21:44.970 --> 00:21:47.089
There's a little bit, so you've got characters

00:21:47.089 --> 00:21:53.470
with Viking names, you've got a named boat, swords

00:21:53.470 --> 00:21:59.829
that have names. But beyond that, it's got those

00:21:59.829 --> 00:22:04.730
sort of trappings of a Viking world, but not

00:22:04.730 --> 00:22:09.089
in any great depth or detail. In a sense, the

00:22:09.089 --> 00:22:11.390
adventure could be transplanted to outer space.

00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:17.869
or anywhere really, the Viking setting isn't

00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:20.910
important to the story I don't think. It's very

00:22:20.910 --> 00:22:23.910
much a fantasy with a Viking flavour, more than

00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:26.990
a fantasy set in a Viking world, because as you

00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:29.869
say it's got like the essence of Viking names

00:22:29.869 --> 00:22:31.630
but not many, thankfully the names there are

00:22:31.630 --> 00:22:36.349
all quite more pronounceable than Jarl and all

00:22:36.349 --> 00:22:45.470
that nonsense that I certainly looking at the

00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:50.730
illustrations in my book. I think only a couple

00:22:50.730 --> 00:22:52.650
of them actually no no actually take that back

00:22:52.650 --> 00:22:55.930
they do definitely have the figure of horned

00:22:55.930 --> 00:22:58.750
helmets although Eric's character and a few of

00:22:58.750 --> 00:23:01.130
his more close comrades because they're the only

00:23:01.130 --> 00:23:03.609
you think you only know names of like maybe three

00:23:03.609 --> 00:23:07.069
of his crew like his best mates is kind of like

00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:09.109
wise one cunning one strong one that kind of

00:23:09.109 --> 00:23:11.329
thing everyone else you just refer to as the

00:23:11.329 --> 00:23:16.009
men the crew. They have wings on their helmets,

00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:18.630
which I thought, oh, that's a classical artistic

00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:21.190
trope of signifying the hero that's obviously

00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:24.789
come through from classical opera, dare I say,

00:23:24.970 --> 00:23:28.250
or even kind of like, I'm sure even in the Bugs

00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:32.410
Bunny version of Wikener's opera of the Valkyrie,

00:23:32.509 --> 00:23:36.890
they've got wings on their helmets as well. So

00:23:36.890 --> 00:23:40.390
yeah, so that was interesting. Yes, yeah, so

00:23:40.390 --> 00:23:43.210
that tradition does come through in the illustrations,

00:23:43.289 --> 00:23:45.990
but it's not in the text, is it? It isn't the

00:23:45.990 --> 00:23:49.470
case that Jones describes what they're wearing.

00:23:50.009 --> 00:23:52.130
He'll make reference to a helmet or a sword,

00:23:52.150 --> 00:23:54.529
but he doesn't go into a great deal of detail

00:23:54.529 --> 00:23:57.910
on what they are like as objects. That's not

00:23:57.910 --> 00:23:59.990
what it's about. It's really, it's a fairy tale

00:23:59.990 --> 00:24:05.490
that's populated by Viking types, but equally

00:24:05.490 --> 00:24:10.089
could be populated by... characters in an outer

00:24:10.089 --> 00:24:13.809
space adventure or any other historical period

00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:16.890
really, I guess. Or maybe it needs to be in sort

00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:19.950
of a mythic past, if it's in the past, a past

00:24:19.950 --> 00:24:24.950
where you can encounter dragons and other fantastical

00:24:24.950 --> 00:24:28.829
creatures. You couldn't set it in a more fully

00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:31.990
documented or recorded period of history because

00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:35.829
we know if it was in... World War Two, for instance,

00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:42.289
this wouldn't work as a narrative. It needs elements

00:24:42.289 --> 00:24:45.670
of the history to reflect how these things existed

00:24:45.670 --> 00:24:49.130
such as the sea dragon and the islands that they

00:24:49.130 --> 00:24:51.569
come across where they're all rocks and then

00:24:51.569 --> 00:24:54.470
they all become rocks. And then there's this

00:24:54.470 --> 00:24:56.390
wizard who was trying to make the island beautiful

00:24:56.390 --> 00:24:58.150
for his daughter, but didn't realize because

00:24:58.150 --> 00:24:59.910
he have stones for eyes, it's actually turning

00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:03.549
everything to stone. It's so fantastical, but

00:25:03.549 --> 00:25:07.269
it also kind of like fits kind of like how Asian

00:25:07.269 --> 00:25:09.910
peoples probably visualized the world and saw

00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:11.190
these things because of course they believed

00:25:11.190 --> 00:25:14.990
in trolls and elves and dwarves and dragons and

00:25:14.990 --> 00:25:19.650
evil spirits and magics and curses. Certainly,

00:25:20.170 --> 00:25:22.109
it definitely almost like has a harking back.

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.180
to even kind of like older mythical epic adventures

00:25:26.180 --> 00:25:28.480
such as kind of like the Odyssey and Theseus

00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.480
and all that kind of like Greek because they're

00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.359
always encountering mythical things. Their adventures

00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.740
are never historical, they're always fantastical.

00:25:38.509 --> 00:25:40.650
Yeah, there are lots of borrowings, aren't there,

00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:44.670
as well as from fairy tales, lots of borrowings

00:25:44.670 --> 00:25:49.329
from other traditions, other legends. So you

00:25:49.329 --> 00:25:51.170
get figures like the Old Man of the Sea, for

00:25:51.170 --> 00:25:55.509
instance, who I think he crops up in Greek mythology,

00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:57.950
doesn't he, but also in the adventures of Sinbad.

00:25:58.329 --> 00:26:03.109
So, yes, he's in the Odyssey and in Sinbad. So

00:26:03.109 --> 00:26:07.329
those sorts of types are borrowed as well as

00:26:08.310 --> 00:26:11.809
characters from Germanic legend, apparently.

00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:14.250
I recognise the name, there's a character called

00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:17.410
Cobold, for instance, who is quite significant,

00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:21.670
but the Cobold apparently is a creature that

00:26:21.670 --> 00:26:26.230
appears elsewhere in folklore, folk tradition

00:26:26.230 --> 00:26:32.769
in the Germanic world, but yeah, lots of borrowings.

00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:38.099
Also from, it's quite significant as well, isn't

00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:42.039
it, that Eric meets death and he's challenged

00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:46.940
by death and he has to play a game of chess against

00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:52.779
death to outwit him. and to not be killed and

00:26:52.779 --> 00:26:56.299
carried off by death. And I'm not sure quite

00:26:56.299 --> 00:26:58.700
where that motif comes from, the idea of a hero

00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:01.000
playing chess against death, but it certainly

00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:04.380
features in the seventh seal, the Ingmar Bergman

00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:07.339
film, the seventh seal, which is this. So that

00:27:07.339 --> 00:27:10.140
features a knight playing chess against death

00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:17.250
on a beach. I'm a fan of Monty Python and I'm

00:27:17.250 --> 00:27:19.589
a fan of Monty Python and the Holy Grail and

00:27:19.589 --> 00:27:24.990
obviously that involves many of the same people

00:27:24.990 --> 00:27:28.349
who then pop up later in Eric the Viking, the

00:27:28.349 --> 00:27:31.890
film. But the trailer for Eric the Viking, sorry,

00:27:32.289 --> 00:27:34.630
the trailer for Monty Python and the Holy Grail

00:27:34.630 --> 00:27:38.269
also features a parody of death playing chess

00:27:38.269 --> 00:27:42.190
on the beach. It's not in the film itself but

00:27:42.190 --> 00:27:45.019
it is in the in the trailer for Monty Python

00:27:45.019 --> 00:27:46.940
and the Holy Grail which is worth seeking out

00:27:46.940 --> 00:27:49.640
because it's a little production all of itself

00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:53.720
and it's funny and it's on YouTube. So that's

00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.140
obviously a motif that interested Terry Jones

00:27:56.140 --> 00:27:59.220
and I think I'm right in saying that in that

00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:03.880
trailer he plays death. He only features very

00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.180
briefly but essentially there's a chess game

00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:09.480
and it just ends with death using a custard pie

00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:12.480
and pushing it. piece of the night that he's

00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.380
playing chess against. So there are borrowings

00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:22.140
from all over within this book. But also, I think

00:28:22.140 --> 00:28:24.380
it's probably important to say that Jones was

00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:27.960
a medievalist. And he wrote a series called Medieval

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.000
Lives, a BBC series, and an accompanying book

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:35.920
as well. And I think as a medievalist, he was

00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:41.559
aware of some of the fantastical creatures that

00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.740
belong to medieval tradition, like the dog -headed

00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:47.960
men, the idea that Christopher was a dog -headed

00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:53.720
man, also the blemi, those creatures that have

00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.539
their heads in their chests. Yes, yes. And maybe

00:28:57.539 --> 00:29:02.140
they crop up as the inhabitants of the land where

00:29:02.140 --> 00:29:05.599
the sun goes at night. So Eric's quest really,

00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:08.339
there's not much of a motive given for his quest

00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:10.680
initially within the book. He wakes up with the

00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:16.359
idea, I need to go to find where the sun goes

00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:19.519
at night. And there's no other real rationale

00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:23.380
or explanation given. Another character eventually

00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:25.980
does interrogate him on that. Is it the enchantress?

00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:28.619
Somebody asks him why he's doing it, but there

00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:32.140
isn't really a, or maybe it's cobbled. There's

00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:36.440
no real justification given until the end. The

00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:38.859
justification for all of the adventures, the

00:29:38.859 --> 00:29:41.539
reasoning for it, emerges in the course of the

00:29:41.539 --> 00:29:46.420
adventures. And it's that little phrase that

00:29:46.420 --> 00:29:48.660
the reader is left with at the end of the book,

00:29:49.299 --> 00:29:52.079
which is, it's lovely, our deeds are our gold,

00:29:52.299 --> 00:29:57.400
our quest is our goal. they learn, if there's

00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.160
a lesson or a moral to be drawn from this story,

00:30:00.220 --> 00:30:02.380
I think there are probably several, but one of

00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:08.519
them is that the treasure is the journey, and

00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:13.559
that's quite a valuable lesson maybe to carry

00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:15.680
through life, is that it's not about the end

00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.519
point, it's about the journey, it's about the

00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.460
friends you make on the way, it's about what

00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:22.480
you do in the course of your life, it's not about...

00:30:22.349 --> 00:30:27.789
amassing a treasure or defeating the dragon or

00:30:27.789 --> 00:30:33.750
becoming the hero, it is about the process. That's

00:30:33.750 --> 00:30:37.990
the most valuable thing in life. And also the

00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:40.069
relationships along the way, whether that's with

00:30:40.069 --> 00:30:44.509
your crewmates or with your family. And that's

00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:47.450
a theme that not only belongs to the book, the

00:30:47.450 --> 00:30:52.569
idea of It's really father to son, I think, in

00:30:52.569 --> 00:30:54.789
the book. Women don't get much of a look -in

00:30:54.789 --> 00:30:57.670
in the book, which is slightly unfortunate, I

00:30:57.670 --> 00:30:59.750
think. I mean, they'd argue they don't get much

00:30:59.750 --> 00:31:05.109
of a look -in in the film either, but it thinks

00:31:05.109 --> 00:31:09.190
a lot and it communicates about the idea of being

00:31:09.190 --> 00:31:16.190
a father to, in this case, to a son. And Eric's

00:31:16.190 --> 00:31:19.900
father... is rescued in the course of the story.

00:31:19.940 --> 00:31:21.920
This is something that we're necessarily expecting

00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.519
because Eric's father is supposedly lost, but

00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.319
he is rescued from the old man of the sea who

00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:32.460
is this villain who keeps, he's probably the

00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:34.859
most dangerous villain within the story. He sort

00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:37.980
of keeps coming back. I think Eric encounters

00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:40.880
him thrice. I think he encounters him on three

00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:43.779
occasions within the book each time he is beaten

00:31:43.779 --> 00:31:47.339
or outwitted. Eric rescues his father who's presumed

00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:50.480
lost and then eventually Eric himself is rescued

00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.579
in that final battle with death by his own son

00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:57.160
who pops up and says and says well death you're

00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:00.819
not triumphant because um life is passed on from

00:32:00.819 --> 00:32:04.940
father to son so yeah right so so you'd think

00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:06.660
death would have realized that by this point

00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:08.539
really wouldn't you it's a maybe a little bit

00:32:08.539 --> 00:32:11.799
of a cop -out but it's it's nice it's a nice

00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:16.049
sentiment i suppose And it is a nice bow that

00:32:16.049 --> 00:32:20.589
ties up the story at the end. It's that death

00:32:20.589 --> 00:32:24.690
isn't triumphant because we have our families,

00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:28.750
I suppose, to give it its broadest possible reading

00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:34.690
and understanding of that epic. So I think we've

00:32:34.690 --> 00:32:36.710
already given away, haven't we, that we like

00:32:36.710 --> 00:32:40.319
this book, Becky? Yes, we do. There were the

00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.660
bits in it that you would you would like to sort

00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:50.380
of signpost to your listening. Gosh, well I guess

00:32:50.380 --> 00:32:53.740
it's at least my version my edition I should

00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:55.799
say it's quite a thick big book I mean mine's

00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:01.039
got 155 -ish pages but thankfully the way Terry

00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:04.059
Jones has written it it's very reminiscent of

00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.640
kind of like episodic adventures so you could

00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:08.559
read one chapter which is probably only about

00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:11.099
five or six pages because there's always a nice

00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:13.880
illustration at least on half or one page and

00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:15.460
then kind of do the next one the next night so

00:33:15.460 --> 00:33:17.200
you can make this book last quite a long time

00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:18.740
so the parents you don't want to sit and read

00:33:18.740 --> 00:33:21.359
it all you don't have to you can break it into

00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:26.220
a series of adventures um which one did i think

00:33:26.220 --> 00:33:29.839
i liked most what did you think of the dog fighters

00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:34.220
That is an interesting question. The illustration

00:33:34.220 --> 00:33:36.839
for it is what hit me more than the actual text

00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:38.700
in the narrative because the illustration for

00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:43.220
it immediately gave me flashbacks either of Maleficent's

00:33:43.220 --> 00:33:48.079
demons and devils from Sleeping Beauty or the

00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.079
creatures that were the original kind of like

00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.299
animated version of the Chronicles of Narnia

00:33:53.299 --> 00:33:55.299
under the Ice Queen because they were equally

00:33:55.299 --> 00:34:00.880
kind of like grotesque and dull like. My version,

00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:03.619
they only sort of appear in the distance, I think.

00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:05.880
You can just see the tops of their heads in this

00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:10.340
illustration. I didn't see much of them elsewhere.

00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.280
Oh wow, that's quite different. Is that a Michael

00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:20.860
Foreman illustration? Yes, they're all Michael

00:34:20.860 --> 00:34:24.019
Foreman. There will be full JPEG coming up on

00:34:24.019 --> 00:34:27.300
the screen. Although, dear listeners, you need

00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.159
to come over to YouTube so you can see the artwork.

00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.280
I think there's something else that happens,

00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:38.000
how the value of this book, it's not, Michael

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.360
Forman had such a lot through his illustrations.

00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:43.780
They are, they're simple. Are they all black

00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:48.400
and white in yours? No, mine's got colour. I'm

00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:53.349
just trying to find one. There's so many, so

00:34:53.349 --> 00:34:57.289
many to choose from. Like, here's one from The

00:34:57.289 --> 00:35:00.489
Secret Lake. She says, and I can stop pixelating

00:35:00.489 --> 00:35:03.510
the thing. No, it's not going to show it. Oh,

00:35:03.610 --> 00:35:06.809
yes, I can see it. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I will

00:35:06.809 --> 00:35:08.989
send you pictures. I will send you pictures.

00:35:09.510 --> 00:35:11.190
I think that one might be in Bible literature.

00:35:12.909 --> 00:35:16.690
Yeah, so this is when they... Well, that's another

00:35:16.690 --> 00:35:19.389
interesting episode, isn't it? Maybe if we...

00:35:19.230 --> 00:35:22.090
round off the dogfighters we can talk about the

00:35:22.090 --> 00:35:25.809
chapters which are linked aren't they when they

00:35:25.809 --> 00:35:29.429
in their quest for the to find the land where

00:35:29.429 --> 00:35:31.090
the sun goes at night they go off the edge of

00:35:31.090 --> 00:35:36.449
the world which is an interesting notion and

00:35:36.449 --> 00:35:41.289
one that gets recycled for the film but the dogfighters

00:35:41.289 --> 00:35:43.369
are sort of recycled for the film aren't they

00:35:43.369 --> 00:35:48.000
also the great dragon of the North Sea The dog

00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.460
fighters are, they're Viking types, aren't they?

00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:52.900
And they're sort of the Vikings as villains,

00:35:53.059 --> 00:35:56.739
I guess. They arrive on the Enchanter's Island.

00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.760
So the Enchanter at this point in the story is

00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:03.159
quite friendly towards Eric and his crew. He's

00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:06.539
a slightly ambiguous figure, but they end up

00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:08.840
on friendly terms with him. But then the dog

00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:14.920
fighters arrive and they are dangerous. it seems

00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:18.860
that destruction is imminent, destruction of

00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:21.320
everybody and everything on the island. So they

00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:26.079
are this marauding, violent force from overseas,

00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:29.340
and they are wearing something on their heads.

00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:32.079
They're helmeted, aren't they? And in the book,

00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:35.940
they are helmets that look like... dog heads

00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:40.340
or dog faces. So I thought, is this a distillation

00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:46.340
of the Viking threat? The idea of helmeted, of

00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:48.960
characters in ferocious looking helmets arriving

00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:54.440
from Oversea and then just laying waste. That's

00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:56.460
an interesting idea. It certainly gave me a lot

00:36:56.460 --> 00:37:00.039
to think about when I saw it in your notes. Because

00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:03.809
in kind of like thinking looking back at it in

00:37:03.809 --> 00:37:05.590
different ways as well kind of like the old man

00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:08.190
of the sea as he said to the villain if I was

00:37:08.190 --> 00:37:10.449
to link that character back to anything from

00:37:10.449 --> 00:37:13.429
Norse mythology it was very Loki -like but then

00:37:13.429 --> 00:37:15.690
I didn't know if it was kind of like a Loki version

00:37:15.690 --> 00:37:19.489
of Njord god of the sea because he is a male

00:37:19.489 --> 00:37:22.550
god so I didn't know if that was maybe where

00:37:22.550 --> 00:37:24.449
it's going because there's no mention of Odin

00:37:24.449 --> 00:37:27.889
Thor or Loki at all in this book it's very absent

00:37:27.889 --> 00:37:36.280
of the mythology that the Vikings followed. It's

00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:38.840
very much kind of like almost like a folklore

00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:41.780
adventure. It's kind of like through superstition,

00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.739
common traditions or beliefs more than kind of

00:37:46.739 --> 00:37:51.320
like spiritual heathen pagan beliefs. Yeah, it's

00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:53.619
not codified in that way, is it? Yeah, because

00:37:53.619 --> 00:37:55.639
Eric's been mentioned as having gone raiding.

00:37:55.820 --> 00:37:57.940
Neither is his crew. His father apparently seems

00:37:57.940 --> 00:37:59.679
to have just gone exploring like how he did and

00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:02.320
then got trapped. So it seems like they're kind

00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:04.320
of like the flip side of the Vikings that were

00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:08.019
explorers, possibly traders, I suppose. Whereas

00:38:08.019 --> 00:38:11.300
the dogmen could be the opposite side. And it

00:38:11.300 --> 00:38:13.059
certainly kind of like links back to the end.

00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:17.579
If you've seen the dogmen as the anti -viking.

00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:21.099
Anti -viking? yeah the negative biking anti doesn't

00:38:21.099 --> 00:38:23.579
quite work and the negative biking aspects because

00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:26.119
when they discovered the land where the sun goes

00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:29.960
and those strange beasts and beings with heads

00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:33.119
and their chests and not up on a neck it was

00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:35.900
it's i remember i think was it right now it was

00:38:35.900 --> 00:38:37.460
one of the three it's one of the three you've

00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:39.659
got blinded after you found the star sword for

00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:43.059
them oh that's door kill yes door kill yeah he

00:38:43.059 --> 00:38:45.320
goes kind of like who are we to then say that

00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:47.539
we should fighting clay in this land when clearly

00:38:47.539 --> 00:38:50.460
it's theirs they live there who are we to say

00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.880
that that fist wasn't raised in anger but it

00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:54.599
could have been their way of saying friendship

00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:57.179
who are we to say that their screams and yells

00:38:57.179 --> 00:38:59.360
were of rage and insults and not actually them

00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:02.719
singing kind of like a welcome song and it's

00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:04.679
really what makes Eric and the rest of the crew

00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:06.860
think that yes we shouldn't just go and take

00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:09.320
this land from these people we should maybe we've

00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.519
found it that's what we came out to do we should

00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.340
just go home And that's what they then do, because,

00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:17.440
of course, historically, Vikings would see land

00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.800
that other people have. They say, that's nice.

00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:21.739
Pastures over there in North Yorkshire. I'm going

00:39:21.739 --> 00:39:23.659
to go and build a farmstead there. And then they'd

00:39:23.659 --> 00:39:29.739
take it, which is what they did. So it's definitely

00:39:29.739 --> 00:39:32.119
a children's book for children with none of the

00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:36.349
baggage, none of the violence, certainly. I don't

00:39:36.349 --> 00:39:38.409
think they really kill as such, they kind of

00:39:38.409 --> 00:39:41.730
defeat. There's a bit of violence, but not too

00:39:41.730 --> 00:39:46.369
much, when you think it's a Viking ethic. They

00:39:46.369 --> 00:39:48.869
scare the dogmen off because they take the sword

00:39:48.869 --> 00:39:50.789
from the leader and that becomes the star sword,

00:39:51.289 --> 00:39:54.349
which of course makes me think back to like the

00:39:54.349 --> 00:39:57.309
famous sword in the saga, well certainly in the

00:39:57.309 --> 00:40:00.610
Nibelung cycle. kind of like the famous sword

00:40:00.610 --> 00:40:03.030
that Sigurd uses to slay Fafnir and that kind

00:40:03.030 --> 00:40:05.449
of thing and how it's a sword with special elements

00:40:05.449 --> 00:40:08.750
because that special something is not just not

00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:11.510
just your sword made from Ulfdane or whatever

00:40:11.510 --> 00:40:13.389
his name was that Pete's putting his runes on

00:40:13.389 --> 00:40:16.739
all the swords. You're absolutely right, though.

00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:20.920
I've not really thought about it. Although they're

00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:23.880
not violent Vikings in the first place, they

00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:29.679
do explicitly reject violence at the end, after

00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:33.340
that encounter, that struggle with those creatures

00:40:33.340 --> 00:40:37.619
who live in the land where the sun goes at night.

00:40:38.139 --> 00:40:41.920
And they are reflecting on that struggle against

00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:44.440
them. And they think, well, maybe we've... we've

00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:48.079
gone wrong here, that violence wasn't the answer

00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.460
and maybe it was, not only was it not the answer,

00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:55.579
it was completely the wrong thing to do. And

00:40:55.579 --> 00:40:57.300
obviously that is a theme then that is carried

00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:00.940
through to the movie of Eric the Viking, which

00:41:00.940 --> 00:41:05.739
is violent and opens with a scene of violence

00:41:05.739 --> 00:41:10.650
that puts it at odds with the idea that Eric

00:41:10.650 --> 00:41:13.949
the Viking as an artifact is a children's item,

00:41:14.050 --> 00:41:19.909
a children's object. But yes, they reject violence

00:41:19.909 --> 00:41:24.230
very explicitly in that closing chapter of the

00:41:24.230 --> 00:41:27.250
book. Actually, I think they do it a lot more

00:41:27.250 --> 00:41:29.289
than we think. It's made me remember that even

00:41:29.289 --> 00:41:31.570
in the first adventure where he comes across,

00:41:32.170 --> 00:41:33.829
no actually, yeah, even before that, they come

00:41:33.829 --> 00:41:36.420
across the sea dragon. They don't fight the sea

00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:39.099
dragon. One of them bravely puts some pillows

00:41:39.099 --> 00:41:41.179
up its nose and splashes the pillow so the tissues

00:41:41.179 --> 00:41:43.380
make the dragon sneeze and off they go. And then

00:41:43.380 --> 00:41:46.260
when they meet the enchantress, Eric falls to

00:41:46.260 --> 00:41:48.739
her, but then he puts the cursed necklace on

00:41:48.739 --> 00:41:51.139
her and not him. So again, they didn't kill her.

00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:53.400
They do defeat the monster guarding her lair.

00:41:53.500 --> 00:41:58.599
I'll say that. Yes. But yeah, it's never violence

00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:02.219
on its own that overcomes the problems. There

00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:06.730
may be a struggle. But the solution is generally

00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:11.469
in outwitting a foe or solving a puzzle or a

00:42:11.469 --> 00:42:21.469
problem. It's generally through courage or punning

00:42:21.469 --> 00:42:26.349
or using your wits that you overcome the problem.

00:42:27.130 --> 00:42:33.570
It's never a case of an all -out battle. that

00:42:33.570 --> 00:42:37.190
on its own solves whatever the problem is that

00:42:37.190 --> 00:42:43.170
is in front of Eric and his crew. Did you want

00:42:43.170 --> 00:42:45.010
to say anything about the edge of the world?

00:42:46.969 --> 00:42:49.889
Because they go over it, don't they, in their

00:42:49.889 --> 00:42:53.440
boat? And not only do they go over it. Angling

00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.960
over the edge now, how are they going to get

00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.280
out of this one? They then go round and over.

00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:01.579
Yes, they discover the lip and what's underneath

00:43:01.579 --> 00:43:04.519
it. And then, of course, Eric has the brave idea,

00:43:04.579 --> 00:43:06.679
well, I must bring my ship down underneath. But

00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.739
how do I do that? There's only one way. They

00:43:09.739 --> 00:43:12.039
have to make it do the same thing that the poor

00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:16.159
guys did. But, yeah, it was interesting. It certainly,

00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:19.559
of course, gave me flashbacks to Discworld in

00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.699
Toe Pratchets. kind of like that magic one with

00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:25.579
what's his name in it. I've only ever seen the

00:43:25.579 --> 00:43:27.360
film version, I've not read many Terry Patchett

00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.920
books to be fair, but of course kind of like

00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:36.380
other historical mythological stories claim the

00:43:36.380 --> 00:43:39.480
world was flat of course with Greece and Roman.

00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:42.599
But it was interesting that they didn't come

00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:45.300
across any dwarves. I was really expecting dwarves

00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:47.820
to emerge now that they were underground, sort

00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:51.119
of. And certainly having kind of like water flowing

00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.940
under the earth enabled them to keep going with

00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:55.940
the ship, otherwise they'd just have to be trekking

00:43:55.940 --> 00:43:59.420
for a very, very, very long time. But that's

00:43:59.420 --> 00:44:01.699
what a kobold character is. And of course, me

00:44:01.699 --> 00:44:04.039
being kind of like a woman of 21st century and

00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:06.539
a D &D player, kobold just immediately made me

00:44:06.539 --> 00:44:09.179
think of like a small dragon type creature, not

00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:14.280
the creature that was birthed or originated in

00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:16.460
some kind of weird pearl and those from out of

00:44:16.460 --> 00:44:22.039
the sea that were sailing on. But yeah that certainly

00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:26.119
made me think back to the Enchantress and the

00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:28.059
Talking Valley stories where they find themselves

00:44:28.059 --> 00:44:30.579
in places where things or people don't want them

00:44:30.579 --> 00:44:34.139
to leave. That comes across a couple of times

00:44:34.139 --> 00:44:36.159
in different ways and they have to cope and again

00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:38.500
they could have easily just killed the kind of

00:44:38.500 --> 00:44:42.360
like the guy Kobolds, they're kind of like to

00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:44.840
leave, but they didn't. They kind of Eric says,

00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.519
OK, then we'll stay secretly thinking that we're

00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:51.500
going to get our guys back and we're off kind

00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:57.420
of thing. And the other the other, I suppose,

00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.940
thing to mention as we sort of move towards the

00:45:01.940 --> 00:45:05.400
end of discussing the book and towards the the

00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:09.309
other. the other artifacts is the dragon of the

00:45:09.309 --> 00:45:12.289
North Sea because well in fact you have mentioned

00:45:12.289 --> 00:45:15.250
it haven't you and the way that they overcome

00:45:15.250 --> 00:45:19.750
the dragon it's not through brute force it's

00:45:19.750 --> 00:45:24.630
through cunning but those are dog fighters the

00:45:24.630 --> 00:45:28.829
edge of the world and the dragon are I think

00:45:28.829 --> 00:45:33.110
they're the three most prominent examples of

00:45:33.110 --> 00:45:36.030
episodes carried over from the from the book

00:45:36.030 --> 00:45:38.789
and into the film, unless there's anything else

00:45:38.789 --> 00:45:43.889
that I've forgotten. Unfortunately, I didn't

00:45:43.889 --> 00:45:47.710
get round to rewatching the film. Well, this

00:45:47.710 --> 00:45:49.050
is the first time I've read the book. I've had

00:45:49.050 --> 00:45:50.889
the book for ages, and it was only when we started

00:45:50.889 --> 00:45:52.289
discussing it that I thought, oh, of course,

00:45:52.409 --> 00:45:54.869
actually, yeah, I've got the book. Yeah, that's

00:45:54.869 --> 00:45:58.969
OK. I've watched both versions of the film. We'll

00:45:58.969 --> 00:46:06.119
get onto that shortly. The Saga of Eric the Viking.

00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:08.320
Was there anything more that we wanted to say

00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.539
about this, apart from sort of recommending it

00:46:10.539 --> 00:46:13.699
to people? The second time I've read it, again,

00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:17.019
I really enjoyed it. I wish one of my kids would

00:46:17.019 --> 00:46:20.280
pick it up and read it. So far, they resisted

00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:22.539
my attempts to get them to read it. I just think

00:46:22.539 --> 00:46:26.619
it's a nice book. It deserves to be more well

00:46:26.619 --> 00:46:29.260
-known than it is. I don't know how many readers

00:46:29.260 --> 00:46:32.960
today are familiar with it. or aware of it. But

00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:41.480
my endorsement of it is pretty much 100%. I really

00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:44.519
do recommend it. And that's not in any sense

00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:50.719
to do with my interest in Vikings. I think it

00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.739
does evoke a sort of Viking past, but that's

00:46:53.739 --> 00:46:55.559
not the way in which it's most interesting or

00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:59.489
most lovable as a book. But there's a lot. a

00:46:59.489 --> 00:47:01.889
lot to enjoy in it and it's the kind of book

00:47:01.889 --> 00:47:05.150
that I would happily return to. Yeah I think

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:08.250
because of that clear and obvious now that we've

00:47:08.250 --> 00:47:11.389
kind of been discussing it, lack of obvious Viking

00:47:11.389 --> 00:47:14.309
-ness. Like I say it doesn't mention any of the

00:47:14.309 --> 00:47:16.429
north gods, it doesn't mention raiding, there's

00:47:16.429 --> 00:47:19.409
no identifiable countries that are even reminiscent

00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:22.030
to the world that we inhabit or know the Vikings

00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:25.530
knew of today. So it's got that element of kindnessness.

00:47:26.090 --> 00:47:29.489
And so I think it could be enjoyed in any age

00:47:29.489 --> 00:47:32.590
going forward, just like how he says in the introduction

00:47:32.590 --> 00:47:35.809
in my book, kind of like how humans are humans

00:47:35.809 --> 00:47:39.429
no matter what age or era we're living in. And

00:47:39.429 --> 00:47:42.170
I think that's yeah, I will definitely try it

00:47:42.170 --> 00:47:45.070
on my five year old. And I'm so glad you've helped

00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:48.309
me discover it. So thank you. Actually, I think

00:47:48.309 --> 00:47:50.730
it's interesting you say the timelessness of

00:47:50.730 --> 00:47:53.769
it, because that's definitely not the case with

00:47:53.769 --> 00:47:56.039
the other. items that we're going to consider.

00:47:56.260 --> 00:48:00.960
They very much belong to the mid and late 1980s,

00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:06.679
I would say. So what's next then for the children's

00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:10.219
book, Chris? Right, if we're proceeding chronologically.

00:48:10.460 --> 00:48:14.000
our next item is the saga of eric the viking

00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:15.940
so it's got exactly the same name the saga of

00:48:15.940 --> 00:48:20.380
eric the viking from mosaic publishing in 1984

00:48:20.380 --> 00:48:23.019
this is what was known at the time i believe

00:48:23.019 --> 00:48:26.139
as interactive fiction and otherwise known as

00:48:26.139 --> 00:48:30.179
a text adventure um which is something i had

00:48:30.179 --> 00:48:33.639
i have a little bit of familiarity with from

00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:36.679
my childhood i didn't tend to play on them much

00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:39.119
myself but i was aware of them as someone who

00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:45.019
played computer games in the 8 -bit era. I was

00:48:45.019 --> 00:48:49.000
more into probably shoot -em -ups, platform games,

00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.980
that sort of thing. Text adventures were what

00:48:54.980 --> 00:48:59.820
it says, they were things that you read and you

00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:04.409
would type instructions in. as a means of progressing

00:49:04.409 --> 00:49:07.710
the adventure. So there might be graphics in

00:49:07.710 --> 00:49:09.309
the way that you would have illustrations in

00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:13.889
a book, but they would tend to be stick and you

00:49:13.889 --> 00:49:15.630
wouldn't get to see them until you got to the

00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:18.929
next part of the adventure until you made some

00:49:18.929 --> 00:49:22.889
progress in the adventure. So yeah, I don't have

00:49:22.889 --> 00:49:25.730
much experience of playing them. The last time

00:49:25.730 --> 00:49:28.690
I played one would have been probably as a...

00:49:28.650 --> 00:49:32.829
as a child, either on an 8 -bit or a 16 -bit

00:49:32.829 --> 00:49:36.409
computer. I wasn't a big fan, but they did have

00:49:36.409 --> 00:49:40.030
their fans. I believe there are still fans out

00:49:40.030 --> 00:49:44.469
there who love the genre. It's pretty niche.

00:49:44.710 --> 00:49:46.309
Have you got any background at all with these,

00:49:46.429 --> 00:49:50.019
Becky? I have vague memories of playing a text

00:49:50.019 --> 00:49:52.980
narrative game. And for those who are very much

00:49:52.980 --> 00:49:54.940
children of the 21st century and don't have a

00:49:54.940 --> 00:49:57.480
clue what we're on about, imagine a game where

00:49:57.480 --> 00:50:00.559
it is just text and it's just like you approach

00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:03.360
a door. Do you open the door or do you turn left?

00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:05.420
And then you press the key or click on the mouse

00:50:05.420 --> 00:50:08.000
and say, OK. And you do options. And it's very

00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:14.170
much like a very Low -key simple, almost like

00:50:14.170 --> 00:50:16.409
a D &D because it's all about your choice and

00:50:16.409 --> 00:50:18.530
then where it takes you next. So there can be

00:50:18.530 --> 00:50:22.329
multiple ways of playing it. I have vague memories

00:50:22.329 --> 00:50:26.210
of being on either a computer at school or a

00:50:26.210 --> 00:50:28.309
computer at home playing one and I can't remember

00:50:28.309 --> 00:50:30.429
what the game was called but I remember the screen

00:50:30.429 --> 00:50:33.130
was black and the text was either in white and

00:50:33.130 --> 00:50:34.570
then the options were either in green or red

00:50:34.570 --> 00:50:36.449
because you only ever had two maybe three options

00:50:36.449 --> 00:50:41.800
at most. But interestingly enough there is Oh,

00:50:42.139 --> 00:50:45.619
there is someone. I think it was called Mr. Taggart.

00:50:46.179 --> 00:50:48.980
Let me see if I can get my steam up because there

00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:51.920
is a text -based Viking game that's set in historical

00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:55.139
Viking Age times that has been out for a while.

00:50:56.440 --> 00:51:00.480
Just waiting for steam to load. And that's got

00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:04.400
a name of... I'll find it in a second when steam

00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:08.800
loads up. But yeah, it was really, really...

00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:11.699
kind of a thing for those who like stories, who

00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:13.619
like to personalise their adventure and have

00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:16.380
the choice because it was kind of the game version

00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:18.260
of Goosebumps for those who can remember the

00:51:18.260 --> 00:51:19.940
Goosebumps books where kind of like you read

00:51:19.940 --> 00:51:22.519
to page 12 and then it says okay turn to page

00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:26.179
16 to see what happens next or turn to page 12

00:51:26.179 --> 00:51:28.599
if you don't want to kind of like go that way

00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.329
because of course that has a narrative. interactive

00:51:31.329 --> 00:51:35.030
elements with it as well. Yes, the earlier version

00:51:35.030 --> 00:51:38.070
of those kind of books that I read when I was

00:51:38.070 --> 00:51:40.750
little were the Choose Your Own Adventure books

00:51:40.750 --> 00:51:44.349
and also the Fighting Fantasy game books were

00:51:44.349 --> 00:51:46.369
out at that point as well by Steve Jackson and

00:51:46.369 --> 00:51:50.190
Ian Livingstone. So they were super popular and

00:51:50.190 --> 00:51:56.690
influential when I was a kid. This game and other

00:51:56.690 --> 00:52:02.150
text games, they leave the options very open,

00:52:02.190 --> 00:52:04.630
don't they? Because often, once you've got your

00:52:04.630 --> 00:52:07.570
next chunk of text to read through, at the end,

00:52:07.570 --> 00:52:11.090
it just says, what next? It doesn't give you

00:52:11.090 --> 00:52:15.710
a choice. So in principle, you can say anything

00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:19.710
that you do next. But in practical terms, you

00:52:19.710 --> 00:52:22.769
have to stumble across maybe one or two or three

00:52:22.769 --> 00:52:27.829
options that will get you a result. So the experience

00:52:27.829 --> 00:52:32.800
of playing these games I think once you've explored

00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:37.179
everything you can, it can be very frustrating

00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:40.179
for a 21st century gamer because you're thinking,

00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:43.659
right, open door. And then it will say something

00:52:43.659 --> 00:52:45.059
like, you can't do that. You think, right, well,

00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:49.780
I'll go back to another area then and I'll look

00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:53.280
in pot. And then often you have to try different

00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:57.980
combinations of words to try and happen upon

00:52:57.980 --> 00:53:00.940
the combination of words that the computer then

00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:03.280
understands that will allow you to then press

00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:06.420
on to the next part of the adventure. So it's

00:53:06.420 --> 00:53:12.380
a real puzzle, both in terms of finding your

00:53:12.380 --> 00:53:14.739
way through the adventure, but also working out

00:53:14.739 --> 00:53:18.340
what to actually type in. Even if you've got

00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:21.039
an idea of what you need to do next, you might

00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.699
not have come upon the correct combination of

00:53:23.699 --> 00:53:27.400
words to tell. that that is what you intend to

00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:32.079
do next. So it's quite a different gaming experience.

00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:36.679
And I played the, this game came out on various

00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:39.659
platforms. It came out on the Commodore 64, ZX

00:53:39.659 --> 00:53:46.960
Spectrum, BVC, Micro. I played it on the Amstrad

00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:50.380
CPC version. I owned an Amstrad CPC 6128 as a

00:53:50.380 --> 00:53:51.760
kid, so I thought, wow, this is great. I can

00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:53.139
play it on the version that would have been on

00:53:53.139 --> 00:53:59.119
my computer. You can play it online. That version

00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.800
of it, you can play. So I played it, and I barely

00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:07.659
made any progress at all. I explored the first

00:54:07.659 --> 00:54:10.880
kind of area that you get to. I succeeded in

00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:14.619
finding a horn and blowing the horn. and my crew

00:54:14.619 --> 00:54:16.880
turned up, but then I couldn't work out how to

00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:19.619
get on board the boat, Golden Dragon, which is

00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:25.460
the same boat that features in the book. So I

00:54:25.460 --> 00:54:31.400
managed to explore Eric's home village, but I

00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.519
didn't get any further. But of course, in this

00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:36.820
era of YouTube, you can watch someone completing

00:54:36.820 --> 00:54:39.280
the game on YouTube. So I did that as well. So

00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:43.260
I got to experience it. The thing I didn't experience

00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:45.780
was death, because if you make the wrong choice

00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:47.679
in the game, you can be killed off. But this

00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:50.880
person, although he made some wrong turns, I

00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:53.340
think in the course of about 40 minutes, he completed

00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:58.840
the game. Oh, wow. But I didn't know, would you

00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:02.400
like me to read the intro to the story, which

00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:06.320
explains where the story is in relation to the

00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:11.519
book? So you get your sleeve notes within your

00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:14.820
cassette box. You get the notes and an introduction.

00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.719
It says, this game is the second saga of Eric

00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:19.920
the Viking, the famous warrior who lived a thousand

00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:22.760
years ago. He owned a large farm in Norway beside

00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:24.599
the North Sea and lived there with his family

00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:27.460
and servants. Every summer, Eric's son sailed

00:55:27.460 --> 00:55:30.079
off in the golden dragon to trade with the Scralings.

00:55:30.349 --> 00:55:33.070
or steal their gold. And every Sunday his sons

00:55:33.070 --> 00:55:35.269
asked Eric to come with them. But Eric thought

00:55:35.269 --> 00:55:37.110
that he had seen enough strange lambs and always

00:55:37.110 --> 00:55:39.449
refused. He was happy to run the farm instead

00:55:39.449 --> 00:55:41.789
and swap tails with them in the smoky hall each

00:55:41.789 --> 00:55:44.389
winter. One spring day, Eric wanted to check

00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:47.130
the borders of his land and make sure that all

00:55:47.130 --> 00:55:49.309
the sheep had been brought in for shearing. He

00:55:49.309 --> 00:55:51.050
followed the river which flowed past his house

00:55:51.050 --> 00:55:53.050
and soon reached the snow -capped mountains to

00:55:53.050 --> 00:55:56.429
the east. Then he sat down for a rest. As Eric

00:55:56.429 --> 00:55:58.610
noticed beneath the fir trees, he seemed to see

00:55:58.610 --> 00:56:01.349
a vision. An army of strange creatures swarmed

00:56:01.349 --> 00:56:03.769
over the farm. His wife managed to hide a few

00:56:03.769 --> 00:56:05.829
treasures before she was caught. And then the

00:56:05.829 --> 00:56:08.409
creatures dragged everyone away. All this time,

00:56:08.429 --> 00:56:11.090
Eric couldn't move. Then he woke up. You must

00:56:11.090 --> 00:56:13.269
play the part of Eric the Viking and find out

00:56:13.269 --> 00:56:17.630
what has happened. Good luck. Dog meds, I'm calling

00:56:17.630 --> 00:56:21.809
it dog meds. It turns out that I think I'm right

00:56:21.809 --> 00:56:24.809
in saying that it does turn out that it is dog,

00:56:25.110 --> 00:56:28.980
the dog fighters who have been and yes. that

00:56:28.980 --> 00:56:31.559
have captured everyone from Eric's village and

00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:35.679
taken them away. So the story isn't by Terry

00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:37.739
Jones. Again, on YouTube, I found a nice clip

00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:40.199
of him talking on breakfast TV about the computer

00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:43.440
game and saying, more or less, oh, I couldn't

00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:46.679
get very far on it. But my children did manage

00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:49.800
to get the golden dragon out on the sea, and

00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:51.320
they managed to sail around and have a wonderful

00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:54.440
time. But I'm not very good at computer games.

00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:57.699
But I urge everybody to buy it. And then the

00:56:57.699 --> 00:56:59.760
interviewer says, oh, I understand there's a

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.280
movie on the cards as well of Eric the Viking.

00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:06.139
Oh, yes, yes, Eric the Viking. We're hoping that

00:57:06.139 --> 00:57:09.000
there will be a movie one day. And obviously,

00:57:09.340 --> 00:57:12.139
that is five years in the future from when that

00:57:12.139 --> 00:57:14.460
interview is taking place, four or five years

00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:17.940
from that point. But that was interesting to

00:57:17.940 --> 00:57:20.679
see that as a means of joining the dots between

00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:24.440
the book. the game and then the film that results.

00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:32.880
But the story within the game, the text is very

00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:36.199
brief, with the exception of a couple of episodes.

00:57:37.099 --> 00:57:40.519
It recycles many of the characters from the book.

00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:46.869
So you encounter the enchantress again. Blind

00:57:46.869 --> 00:57:49.250
Thor Killed, so Thor Killed obviously was blinded

00:57:49.250 --> 00:57:52.989
in the book. He comes back, spent the strong

00:57:52.989 --> 00:57:56.530
Ragnar Forkbeard. Gunnar Longshanks, who I think

00:57:56.530 --> 00:58:00.449
crops up in the book, albeit briefly, as a member

00:58:00.449 --> 00:58:06.829
of the crew. He's there. You encounter the dragon

00:58:06.829 --> 00:58:13.150
of the North Sea. You meet the Enchanter's daughter.

00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:19.619
which is in the story. And at some point, once

00:58:19.619 --> 00:58:24.219
you've gathered items within your village, you've

00:58:24.219 --> 00:58:26.360
gathered your crew by blowing the horn, you get

00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:28.420
on board the golden dragon, you set sail. There

00:58:28.420 --> 00:58:31.159
was a lot of toing and froing in the golden dragon.

00:58:32.059 --> 00:58:35.739
You pick up a message that says, your family

00:58:35.739 --> 00:58:38.079
are guarded by the dreadful dogfighters, Eric.

00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:45.259
Al -Qasami can help. Al -Qasami? Him? Him. He

00:58:45.259 --> 00:58:47.739
doesn't make a direct appearance, an indirect

00:58:47.739 --> 00:58:51.280
one, because his dog, which is a magical dog,

00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:55.760
appears on the ship and starts whisking, whirling

00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:58.179
Eric around, kind of like he's about to throw

00:58:58.179 --> 00:59:00.880
a sling. And it's his crewmen that eventually

00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:02.960
work out, after three attempts of course, that

00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:04.460
they should really look at the dog collar and

00:59:04.460 --> 00:59:07.960
see what it was. which I thought made me laugh.

00:59:08.340 --> 00:59:10.280
I thought magical dogs always wear collars and

00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:12.420
with that they shout the names as call back your

00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:14.840
hound and then the dog spirals off instead which

00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:17.519
made me laugh even more because I thought if

00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:18.800
they did that in the film that would just be

00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:22.239
comedic. Yeah so the only features in the margins

00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.340
are al -Qasami but that was interesting to me

00:59:25.340 --> 00:59:28.599
because obviously it's this idea of I suppose

00:59:28.599 --> 00:59:33.840
the mystical east but also the idea of the Muslim

00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:39.929
world and that is a place the Vikings are aware

00:59:39.929 --> 00:59:42.389
of and obviously there are there are journeys

00:59:42.389 --> 00:59:46.530
to the Muslim world and the idea of scholarship

00:59:46.530 --> 00:59:48.869
and knowledge in this case it's a it's a magician

00:59:48.869 --> 00:59:53.369
called Al Qasami but again to a medievalist like

00:59:53.369 --> 00:59:56.909
like Jones's familiarity with this idea that

00:59:56.909 --> 01:00:01.329
there is knowledge and wisdom that's carried

01:00:01.329 --> 01:00:05.590
from the ancient world and preserved in the Middle

01:00:05.590 --> 01:00:09.750
East in this period. So yeah, he doesn't really

01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:12.170
feature himself. It's just the spell hound that

01:00:12.170 --> 01:00:20.110
he's sent to imperil every crew. But here, you

01:00:20.110 --> 01:00:21.969
get to meet him. You get to meet him in the game.

01:00:23.130 --> 01:00:25.809
He gets one of the biggest chunks of text, because

01:00:25.809 --> 01:00:30.690
often it's just a few words. For instance, the

01:00:30.690 --> 01:00:34.250
first chunk of text, Eric is on the mountainside.

01:00:34.349 --> 01:00:37.150
The only exit is down to a path. What now? And

01:00:37.150 --> 01:00:39.269
that's often the case. Eric is in the ice house.

01:00:40.769 --> 01:00:44.230
So you don't get much. But for Al Qasami, you

01:00:44.230 --> 01:00:48.530
get, Al Qasami greets you. So he's found in a

01:00:48.530 --> 01:00:50.730
palace at the end of a golden road. Al Qasami

01:00:50.730 --> 01:00:54.110
greets you with, beware, Viking scum. I am Al

01:00:54.110 --> 01:00:57.670
Qasami, great invisible wizard. And then he gets

01:00:57.670 --> 01:01:00.030
quite a big chunk and what you have to do and

01:01:00.030 --> 01:01:03.369
I think this is playing with with Norse mythology

01:01:03.369 --> 01:01:08.630
you have to get you have to make a ribbon and

01:01:08.630 --> 01:01:12.889
You need to get the sound of a cat moving a woman's

01:01:12.889 --> 01:01:18.110
beard the roots of a mountain Yeah, the breath

01:01:18.110 --> 01:01:26.309
of a fish and the bird's spittle slightly as

01:01:26.309 --> 01:01:29.110
the horse, wrong word Becky. The ingredients

01:01:29.110 --> 01:01:32.929
for the Bines of Fenrir, oh that's awesome, that's

01:01:32.929 --> 01:01:34.690
a proper thing from North Stratholme, that's

01:01:34.690 --> 01:01:36.389
the first time it's been partnered with Eric

01:01:36.389 --> 01:01:38.869
the Viking which I absolutely love because that

01:01:38.869 --> 01:01:40.590
thing's always fascinated me because I thought

01:01:40.590 --> 01:01:43.170
what imagination could come up with such ingredients,

01:01:43.909 --> 01:01:46.170
modern imagination can but someone did thousands

01:01:46.170 --> 01:01:49.969
of years ago. Yes well it does, it uses the name

01:01:49.969 --> 01:01:52.050
the word Viking which again doesn't appear very

01:01:52.050 --> 01:01:55.329
much in the saga of Eric the Viking. It features

01:01:55.329 --> 01:01:58.769
that borrowing from Norse mythology. Also, Eric,

01:01:59.210 --> 01:02:00.949
at some point you have to pray outside a church

01:02:00.949 --> 01:02:02.889
and you hear a voice which says, I hear you,

01:02:02.929 --> 01:02:06.070
son of Odin, and will open the door. And then

01:02:06.070 --> 01:02:09.309
I think I've noted correctly, apparently he finds

01:02:09.309 --> 01:02:11.389
a copy of this book in the church, which is a

01:02:11.389 --> 01:02:13.409
bit meta. He finds a copy of the Saga of Eric

01:02:13.409 --> 01:02:20.940
the Viking in the church. That's crazy. The other

01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:24.679
little Easter egg really to tell you about, which

01:02:24.679 --> 01:02:29.780
I was delighted by, given the year when this

01:02:29.780 --> 01:02:33.579
came out, is you go to various locations, some

01:02:33.579 --> 01:02:37.559
of them are from the book, one of them is Jorvik

01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:43.269
Wharf. No way! Oh my gosh, that's awesome. I

01:02:43.269 --> 01:02:45.530
salute the guys behind this game. They've done

01:02:45.530 --> 01:02:48.329
their research. I really like what they're doing.

01:02:49.110 --> 01:02:53.190
And you get an image actually of... I mean, the

01:02:53.190 --> 01:02:55.510
images are very basic. What's nice about them

01:02:55.510 --> 01:02:58.150
is they seem to be drawn on the screen as you

01:02:58.150 --> 01:03:00.869
arrive in the location. I would imagine if you're

01:03:00.869 --> 01:03:03.369
playing the whole game, it gets really frustrating

01:03:03.369 --> 01:03:05.369
because it takes time for them to sort of appear.

01:03:05.889 --> 01:03:07.750
And if you're going back and forth, try thinking,

01:03:08.010 --> 01:03:10.610
oh my goodness sake, how do I... How do I catch

01:03:10.610 --> 01:03:13.269
the dolphin's breath in the pot? And you're typing

01:03:13.269 --> 01:03:15.010
in the wrong commands and all this sort of thing.

01:03:15.030 --> 01:03:16.610
It would be very frustrating. But as you watch

01:03:16.610 --> 01:03:19.010
someone play on YouTube, it's fine. And lo and

01:03:19.010 --> 01:03:21.610
behold, just you get a little drawing of Copper

01:03:21.610 --> 01:03:24.710
Gate type, you know, very rough approximations

01:03:24.710 --> 01:03:28.230
of Copper Gate type buildings. So again - That's

01:03:28.230 --> 01:03:30.650
the first time Yorby's ever been in a game. I

01:03:30.650 --> 01:03:32.230
want to know that now. I'm going to have to go

01:03:32.230 --> 01:03:35.019
Google it because that'd be fascinating. Quite

01:03:35.019 --> 01:03:37.340
possibly, quite possibly. But I just thought

01:03:37.340 --> 01:03:44.219
that was, yeah, a nice little inclusion. And

01:03:44.219 --> 01:03:46.820
yeah, and it's not far from that until the end

01:03:46.820 --> 01:03:49.340
of the game. It gives you a score. It's a percentage.

01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:52.920
The playthrough I looked at, they only got 75%.

01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:56.599
They didn't get the 100%. So there are clearly

01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:59.780
other things that... to explore that sort of,

01:03:59.780 --> 01:04:02.239
I guess, increases the longevity of the game

01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:07.360
if you're a player. And it pronounces you a Norse

01:04:07.360 --> 01:04:11.659
of the Year, which is a bit of a strange title

01:04:11.659 --> 01:04:14.440
to bestow on someone. But that's your reward

01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:16.840
for completing the game. You rescue your family,

01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:21.800
obviously. You find the wolf who's guarding the

01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:26.239
prison. that'll be why you need the ingredients

01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:30.460
yes with the dog fighters get reach the prison

01:04:30.460 --> 01:04:32.619
release your family and that's your that's what

01:04:32.619 --> 01:04:34.380
you're told at the end and that's the that's

01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:37.860
the game um but the the same company mosaic publishing

01:04:37.860 --> 01:04:41.559
uh they also they had other they other properties

01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:44.400
that they were licensed to produce games for.

01:04:44.940 --> 01:04:47.579
So they, from what I can see, they did two Adrian

01:04:47.579 --> 01:04:49.079
Mole games. I don't know if you're familiar with

01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:51.420
The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole. I heard of the

01:04:51.420 --> 01:04:53.559
books, but never read them. So I'm surprised

01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:56.079
that they're all sort of games. In the 80s, I

01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.539
remember watching the TV adaptation of it. And

01:04:58.539 --> 01:05:01.280
also, Text Adventure of the Archers, the long

01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:06.539
running radio for soap opera. Wow. How? Just

01:05:06.539 --> 01:05:10.280
how? OK, fair enough. But again, you could probably

01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:13.639
watch it. I'm not tempted to play any of those.

01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:16.179
But yeah, you could probably watch a playthrough

01:05:16.179 --> 01:05:22.780
online. Yeah, so that's the game, which I guess

01:05:22.780 --> 01:05:28.659
then brings us onto the movie, 1989. Well, just

01:05:28.659 --> 01:05:31.179
to end the game chat up, I've just found the

01:05:31.179 --> 01:05:33.380
game that I was talking about that is a text

01:05:33.380 --> 01:05:35.719
-based interactive narrative, and it's called

01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:39.480
Choice of the Viking. It's available on Steam

01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:43.719
and I'm sure it was invented and created by Declan

01:05:43.719 --> 01:05:46.920
Taggart who I remember listening to at one symposium

01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:49.800
or Viking conference and he did a huge bit of

01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:52.420
research about how Thor is naturally connected

01:05:52.420 --> 01:05:54.659
to Thunder and Lightning as we all think because

01:05:54.659 --> 01:05:57.500
of Martin interpretation. But yeah, he made this

01:05:57.500 --> 01:05:59.300
game and it's been on my theme wishlist for ages.

01:05:59.619 --> 01:06:02.500
I just, because of life and my own academic pursuits,

01:06:02.619 --> 01:06:05.219
I just haven't had the time to play it. But I

01:06:05.219 --> 01:06:07.440
will do it because it's really re -inspired my

01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:10.780
interest in that kind of aspect of narrative

01:06:10.780 --> 01:06:18.579
and play. Yeah. Right, so yeah, the movie. Where

01:06:18.579 --> 01:06:20.440
do we begin? What's your background with this

01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:24.300
movie, Bethany? Oh, I saw it definitely over

01:06:24.300 --> 01:06:28.110
a decade ago. Probably in my, not teenagers,

01:06:28.289 --> 01:06:34.690
I'm going to say probably my early 20s. I enjoyed

01:06:34.690 --> 01:06:38.170
it then. I literally haven't seen it since, but

01:06:38.170 --> 01:06:40.070
then I don't often really, really watch films,

01:06:40.250 --> 01:06:43.690
to be fair. But the main thing that stuck out

01:06:43.690 --> 01:06:48.670
to me was mainly the ending, because in this

01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:52.610
particular narrative of Eric the Viking, Eric's

01:06:52.610 --> 01:06:56.659
got to... stop Ragnarok and he's got to go tell

01:06:56.659 --> 01:06:58.539
the gods can you like please stop Ragnarok we

01:06:58.539 --> 01:07:01.179
all want to live etc and so they get there and

01:07:01.179 --> 01:07:04.280
he finds that the gods are all children and yet

01:07:04.280 --> 01:07:07.420
the woman that he accidentally kills and feels

01:07:07.420 --> 01:07:09.320
immense regret over is then he goes well what

01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:11.420
do you expect gods are like this they're kind

01:07:11.420 --> 01:07:13.599
of like they're not like you and me and and that

01:07:13.599 --> 01:07:17.079
bit's always just stuck in my head it really

01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:21.679
has yes i i have no background with this film

01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:27.869
really I'd never seen it before. I can't really

01:07:27.869 --> 01:07:30.710
tell you why. I didn't own a copy. I never got

01:07:30.710 --> 01:07:35.610
round to seeing it. Terry Jones, at the time

01:07:35.610 --> 01:07:38.269
of the release of the director's son's cut of

01:07:38.269 --> 01:07:40.929
Eric the Viking, came to the Yorby Viking Festival

01:07:40.929 --> 01:07:43.090
and that would have been in 2007 and there was

01:07:43.090 --> 01:07:46.570
a city screening in York, but I wasn't at that

01:07:46.570 --> 01:07:50.130
particular event. So it had just passed me by.

01:07:50.289 --> 01:07:56.409
So I was curious to to watch it. I knew it didn't

01:07:56.409 --> 01:07:58.869
have a great deal in common with the book. I

01:07:58.869 --> 01:08:02.269
knew it didn't have a particularly strong reputation

01:08:02.269 --> 01:08:04.550
that doesn't seem to be a great deal of love

01:08:04.550 --> 01:08:08.570
for the film out there. I'd heard things about

01:08:08.570 --> 01:08:12.150
it that sounded puzzling and I just couldn't

01:08:12.150 --> 01:08:16.670
imagine how they would play out on film and actually

01:08:16.670 --> 01:08:19.050
in a lot of ways I think watching the film it

01:08:19.050 --> 01:08:23.689
did turn out to be as I imagine based on what

01:08:23.689 --> 01:08:26.829
I've written. So I had no background with it,

01:08:27.350 --> 01:08:30.250
but when we were talking about the podcast and

01:08:30.250 --> 01:08:32.470
what we could talk about, and you were talking

01:08:32.470 --> 01:08:37.109
about my background with Vikings, how I arrived

01:08:37.109 --> 01:08:40.890
at liking or having interest in Vikings, I was

01:08:40.890 --> 01:08:43.430
thinking back to the year when this came out.

01:08:44.250 --> 01:08:46.770
I was thinking to myself, I didn't have a childhood

01:08:46.770 --> 01:08:50.689
interest in Vikings. And when this came out,

01:08:50.930 --> 01:08:56.029
1989, I was 10, nearly 11. It was the year I

01:08:56.029 --> 01:08:58.890
went up to secondary school. So I was slightly

01:08:58.890 --> 01:09:01.109
on the young side. But I did start secondary

01:09:01.109 --> 01:09:04.170
school a year early. So it was a year for me

01:09:04.170 --> 01:09:07.569
when I was, when you're 10, when you're 11, you

01:09:07.569 --> 01:09:10.109
start to become aware of pop culture and take

01:09:10.109 --> 01:09:14.859
an interest in it. the comics that were available,

01:09:15.539 --> 01:09:20.239
the movies that were out, what's on TV, the music.

01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:26.840
When you're that age, I think you develop a love

01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:30.500
for certain things that sticks with you for the

01:09:30.500 --> 01:09:38.100
rest of your life. 89, I mean the big movie in

01:09:38.100 --> 01:09:40.460
89, and this has a little bit of significance

01:09:40.460 --> 01:09:44.460
for this movie, the big blockbuster movie in

01:09:44.460 --> 01:09:46.739
the summer of 89, so just before Eric the Viking

01:09:46.739 --> 01:09:52.180
came out, was Tim Burton's Batman. And it was

01:09:52.180 --> 01:09:54.819
huge. I think it's difficult to understand how

01:09:54.819 --> 01:09:59.359
huge that movie was, but the hype around that

01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:02.760
movie, everywhere you went, you would see the

01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:07.350
Batman symbol. Not only toy shops, record shops,

01:10:07.689 --> 01:10:11.310
it's everywhere. It's on cloning, it's in news

01:10:11.310 --> 01:10:15.170
agents, it's on TV, it's being spoken about on

01:10:15.170 --> 01:10:19.550
the radio. There was just sort of total saturation

01:10:19.550 --> 01:10:24.890
of that movie in the summer of 1989. And I didn't

01:10:24.890 --> 01:10:26.930
get to see it, of course, because it had a 12

01:10:26.930 --> 01:10:31.270
certificate. And it's the first movie, I seem

01:10:31.270 --> 01:10:35.029
to think, in... in britain that gets that bbfc

01:10:35.029 --> 01:10:38.770
certification 12 really yeah well but when it

01:10:38.770 --> 01:10:41.510
came out on video it was a 15 and that's exactly

01:10:41.510 --> 01:10:45.149
the same for eric the viking in the cinema it

01:10:45.149 --> 01:10:48.270
got a 12 and that so it would have been again

01:10:48.270 --> 01:10:50.770
one of the first movies to get a 12 certificate

01:10:50.770 --> 01:10:57.170
uh and on home release it got a 15 and terry

01:10:57.170 --> 01:11:00.939
jones subsequently has expressed frustration

01:11:00.939 --> 01:11:03.159
and unhappiness that he got the top certificate

01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:08.020
because at various times he says, it's a children's

01:11:08.020 --> 01:11:10.760
film. Other times he's a little bit more affluent

01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:12.399
about that and says, well, it's for anybody.

01:11:12.760 --> 01:11:14.560
Children will like it. Adults will like it. It's

01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:20.060
a family film. But thinking where I was at that

01:11:20.060 --> 01:11:22.859
stage in my life, I would absolutely have been

01:11:22.859 --> 01:11:26.180
interested in seeing this film, I'm sure. When

01:11:26.180 --> 01:11:31.319
I think back to my earliest memories of it, it

01:11:31.319 --> 01:11:34.279
was feeling, well, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe

01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:37.859
this isn't aimed at older people than me. I probably

01:11:37.859 --> 01:11:39.520
wouldn't have gotten into the cinema to see it

01:11:39.520 --> 01:11:44.159
at age 10 stroke 11. By the time it was on video,

01:11:44.380 --> 01:11:47.399
it was a 15. It's definitely too old for me,

01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:52.979
that audience that it's for. And this, I think,

01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:55.640
is one of the one of the problems with Eric the

01:11:55.640 --> 01:12:01.560
Viking, it's how it's perceived and within the

01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:06.199
film itself, it isn't a film that is suitable

01:12:06.199 --> 01:12:12.439
for children in many ways. And I've got two children,

01:12:12.539 --> 01:12:15.000
I've got a 13 year old and a nine year old. I

01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:16.779
wouldn't show it to either of them because I

01:12:16.779 --> 01:12:20.479
wouldn't know how to explain some of its content.

01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:26.720
And I think this, I think that the film is effectively

01:12:26.720 --> 01:12:33.000
sunk by a number of factors. But that failure

01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:39.960
to resolve, to craft it in such a way that it's

01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:45.500
suitable for a young audience is the death blow.

01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.180
And really, the death blow comes in the opening

01:12:48.180 --> 01:12:50.760
scene, which we can talk about, but it never

01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:55.569
really covers from that tonal problem, which

01:12:55.569 --> 01:12:59.069
is perhaps it's a pity maybe there is something

01:12:59.069 --> 01:13:02.409
that's worth recovering or revisiting within

01:13:02.409 --> 01:13:05.390
the film. But we can sort of get onto that. But

01:13:05.390 --> 01:13:07.850
I was thinking as well, well, I didn't really

01:13:07.850 --> 01:13:11.649
have any awareness of Vikings in 1989. And then

01:13:11.649 --> 01:13:14.569
I realised that that's not actually true. I think

01:13:14.569 --> 01:13:17.630
1989, there was something quite interesting going

01:13:17.630 --> 01:13:21.800
on with Vikings. of two instances that I was

01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:25.159
aware of, but there might be others. This is

01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:27.720
aside from Merit the Viking, but I've never asked

01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:29.739
you this, Becky, and you may not want to disclose

01:13:29.739 --> 01:13:33.720
this on the podcast. Are you a Doctor Who fan?

01:13:36.859 --> 01:13:40.779
Fakily, vaguely. I remember watching when David

01:13:40.779 --> 01:13:43.000
Tennant was around, all of it. I've been watching

01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:47.069
Matt Smith, but then after that I kind of didn't

01:13:47.069 --> 01:13:49.189
so I'm kind of like more of the modern era of

01:13:49.189 --> 01:13:51.890
Doctor Who more than the classic original series

01:13:51.890 --> 01:13:53.909
of Doctor Who. Okay well I'm gonna I'm gonna

01:13:53.909 --> 01:13:55.710
destroy any street cred that I might I might

01:13:55.710 --> 01:13:57.789
have once had I don't know very much but I was

01:13:57.789 --> 01:14:00.930
a big Doctor Who fan and I I didn't discover

01:14:00.930 --> 01:14:03.329
Doctor Who until 1988 that was the first time

01:14:03.329 --> 01:14:06.529
I watched any Doctor Who and then 1989 and then

01:14:06.529 --> 01:14:09.010
of course Doctor Who got cancelled for years

01:14:09.010 --> 01:14:11.989
and years but one of the last stories was in

01:14:11.989 --> 01:14:14.130
the Sylvester McCoy era of Doctor Who was called

01:14:14.130 --> 01:14:19.229
The Curse of Fenrick And it stands up quite well

01:14:19.229 --> 01:14:22.229
amongst, I mean, some of the Sylvester McCoy

01:14:22.229 --> 01:14:25.930
stories are not good and they're not worth revisiting.

01:14:26.229 --> 01:14:27.970
There are a couple that are worth having a look

01:14:27.970 --> 01:14:30.250
at and the Curse of Femric is one of them. And

01:14:30.250 --> 01:14:33.270
I had a little look at it again prior to this

01:14:33.270 --> 01:14:35.909
podcast because I did have fond memories of it

01:14:35.909 --> 01:14:38.760
and I have watched it with my kids. It's probably

01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:40.779
a couple years ago now that I looked at it, but

01:14:40.779 --> 01:14:44.279
it's got a strong Viking flavour. It's a bit

01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.920
more than a strong plot. The story itself is

01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:49.840
a bit of a mess. It's got all sorts of ingredients

01:14:49.840 --> 01:14:53.619
thrown in, but it's got loads of Norse mythology

01:14:53.619 --> 01:14:57.939
thrown in there as well. So I was aware of that.

01:14:57.960 --> 01:15:01.979
This was a programme that I loved. So there is

01:15:01.979 --> 01:15:04.880
a strong Viking element there. And at the same

01:15:04.880 --> 01:15:07.319
time, as well, in the same year, one of my favorite

01:15:07.319 --> 01:15:09.640
ever computer games came out and it was called

01:15:09.640 --> 01:15:13.899
Myth History in the Making and that had a Viking

01:15:13.899 --> 01:15:17.920
level, a Norse mythology level. It's a sort of

01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:20.180
adventure game platform where you go through

01:15:20.180 --> 01:15:26.140
different mythologies, you start out in Hades

01:15:26.140 --> 01:15:29.329
I think and then you go through a a Greek level,

01:15:29.630 --> 01:15:32.310
and then you're in a Viking level. You start

01:15:32.310 --> 01:15:35.989
out on a longship. But it was a game that I thought

01:15:35.989 --> 01:15:40.390
was beautiful to look at. It was very atmospheric.

01:15:40.609 --> 01:15:42.630
It featured the kinds of effects I'd not seen

01:15:42.630 --> 01:15:46.289
in an 8 -bit computer game before. Rain effects,

01:15:46.850 --> 01:15:49.029
lightning effects, really, really evocative.

01:15:49.189 --> 01:15:52.930
It was monochrome, but beautiful. beautifully

01:15:52.930 --> 01:15:56.430
drawn graphics. But anyway, we don't need to

01:15:56.430 --> 01:15:58.949
talk in depth about that. But this is just to

01:15:58.949 --> 01:16:02.029
say that I think in 1989, there's something going

01:16:02.029 --> 01:16:07.930
on with Vikings in popular culture, a brief sort

01:16:07.930 --> 01:16:12.289
of revisiting of Viking Norse mythology. And

01:16:12.289 --> 01:16:15.210
they crop up in another Sylvester McCoy, Ragnarok

01:16:15.210 --> 01:16:17.710
crops up in another Sylvester McCoy story, but

01:16:17.710 --> 01:16:20.869
let's go into that now. So yes, in terms of my

01:16:20.869 --> 01:16:24.149
background with popular Vikings, there is something

01:16:24.149 --> 01:16:27.470
going on in that in that year. Well I'm going

01:16:27.470 --> 01:16:29.750
to surprise you I'm pretty sure either David

01:16:29.750 --> 01:16:32.369
Tennant or Matt Smith, one of the two, one of

01:16:32.369 --> 01:16:36.189
them they do have an episode with Vikings. I

01:16:36.189 --> 01:16:38.189
remember because Facebook as you know brings

01:16:38.189 --> 01:16:40.170
up memories and I'm sure at some point in the

01:16:40.170 --> 01:16:42.390
last few months it's brought up my my tweets

01:16:42.390 --> 01:16:44.250
from that time where I was like watching it live

01:16:44.250 --> 01:16:47.810
and oh no they've got horns because they did

01:16:47.810 --> 01:16:49.989
give the Vikings horned helmets which I will

01:16:49.989 --> 01:16:51.989
forgive them for because it's a kids program.

01:16:52.170 --> 01:16:57.189
But yeah, I wasn't impressed with that plot involving

01:16:57.189 --> 01:17:00.369
Vikings. No, no, they never did Vikings very

01:17:00.369 --> 01:17:04.470
much. They pop up in a, I think, an old William

01:17:04.470 --> 01:17:07.489
Hartnell story called The Tine Meddler. There's

01:17:07.489 --> 01:17:09.449
Viking characters. Yeah, there are Viking characters.

01:17:10.270 --> 01:17:12.270
There's a horn helmet that features within the

01:17:12.270 --> 01:17:14.289
story, I remember that. But no, they don't crop

01:17:14.289 --> 01:17:17.529
up very much in classic Doctor Who. But yes,

01:17:18.170 --> 01:17:21.319
Eric the Viking in the movie, I mean, I suppose

01:17:21.319 --> 01:17:22.399
we're going to have to do it, aren't we, and

01:17:22.399 --> 01:17:26.659
discuss the opening scene and how unpleasant

01:17:26.659 --> 01:17:31.119
it is. When you go into this expecting family

01:17:31.119 --> 01:17:37.640
film or a comedy, you're into the very, very

01:17:37.640 --> 01:17:43.279
dark matter right from the get -go. Now that

01:17:43.279 --> 01:17:45.720
you made me think of it, the few memories I have

01:17:45.720 --> 01:17:49.979
of watching it, it is... almost the opposite

01:17:49.979 --> 01:17:53.819
of the book. The book is kind of like Viking

01:17:53.819 --> 01:17:59.359
minimal, like not 1 % Viking, anything. Whereas

01:17:59.359 --> 01:18:02.500
this film, it's taken everything we think we

01:18:02.500 --> 01:18:04.739
know or the stereotypical image of Vikings as

01:18:04.739 --> 01:18:06.899
raiders, as attackers, as rapists, kidnappers,

01:18:07.260 --> 01:18:08.619
killers, murderers, people who take the land,

01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:11.399
burn houses, all about loot and the glory and

01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:14.039
that kind of thing. And they've gone with that,

01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:18.670
which... I can kind of see why because they weren't

01:18:18.670 --> 01:18:21.430
doing the film for specifically children otherwise

01:18:21.430 --> 01:18:23.470
they might have been more honest with the book

01:18:23.470 --> 01:18:27.189
and I guess it depends on how many people were

01:18:27.189 --> 01:18:29.189
involved in writing the script and how involved

01:18:29.189 --> 01:18:32.090
therefore Terry Jones was and I assume he must

01:18:32.090 --> 01:18:34.430
have to some degree either been happy with it

01:18:34.430 --> 01:18:38.189
or they've made compromises in the artistic license

01:18:38.189 --> 01:18:40.710
of retelling or maybe they've just said okay

01:18:40.710 --> 01:18:42.670
we've got this whole story but we're just going

01:18:42.670 --> 01:18:45.619
to borrow your title and stick it on. maybe it's

01:18:45.619 --> 01:18:48.260
more of a labeling of Eric the Viking more than

01:18:48.260 --> 01:18:52.560
a reflection at all of the book. I think the

01:18:52.560 --> 01:18:57.260
movie, it's Terry Jones' project. It's written

01:18:57.260 --> 01:19:01.779
by him. So it's not his thing. So oddly, with

01:19:01.779 --> 01:19:04.239
something like the computer game... tonally and

01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:06.520
thematically, far more in keeping with the book.

01:19:07.060 --> 01:19:10.239
The film is this complete departure, but it is

01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:14.239
a Terry Jones project. And the opening sequence,

01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:17.199
the opening few scenes, depending on which version

01:19:17.199 --> 01:19:20.239
of the film you see, are, as you say, that distillation

01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:26.680
of macho, viking violence. And the very first

01:19:26.680 --> 01:19:29.359
scene in whichever version of the film you watch

01:19:29.359 --> 01:19:33.060
it's a rape scene or an attempted rape scene

01:19:33.060 --> 01:19:40.560
and it's not entirely played for laughs but it

01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:46.060
is played for at least some comedy initially

01:19:46.060 --> 01:19:52.220
and I think tonally then that it's the film doesn't

01:19:52.220 --> 01:19:56.340
really recover from that. And the worst violence

01:19:56.340 --> 01:19:59.279
in those opening scenes is being meted out by

01:19:59.279 --> 01:20:01.939
men against women. So not only have you got the

01:20:01.939 --> 01:20:05.819
attempted rape in the opening sequence, in either

01:20:05.819 --> 01:20:08.039
the second or the third scene, depending on whichever

01:20:08.039 --> 01:20:12.359
version you use today, you've got the game in

01:20:12.359 --> 01:20:16.279
the Viking hall of a woman who's pinned up by

01:20:16.279 --> 01:20:18.539
her braids, and the Vikings are throwing axes

01:20:18.539 --> 01:20:21.060
to try and cut through the braids to release

01:20:21.060 --> 01:20:23.619
her from the board that she's in. that she's

01:20:23.619 --> 01:20:27.199
been pinned to. And then when another woman tries

01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:30.699
to intervene, probably the most kind of macho

01:20:30.699 --> 01:20:33.819
of the Vikings, he's called Thorfinn, punches

01:20:33.819 --> 01:20:36.619
her and sort of knocks her out. And the other

01:20:36.619 --> 01:20:39.880
Vikings are laughing. But I think the effect

01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.979
of all of this, as well as, I suppose it's the

01:20:43.979 --> 01:20:47.729
idea that the... The comedy comes from the sheer

01:20:47.729 --> 01:20:50.390
excess, the sheer Viking excess. Yes, the extreme

01:20:50.390 --> 01:20:52.130
of everything. I can't believe that happened.

01:20:52.189 --> 01:20:53.890
It's funny because I can't believe it happened.

01:20:54.770 --> 01:21:00.729
It doesn't land well, and actually that's symptomatic.

01:21:00.869 --> 01:21:03.229
I mean, the rest of the comedy in the film isn't

01:21:03.229 --> 01:21:06.329
really problematic in the same way, but it isn't

01:21:06.329 --> 01:21:08.409
a funny film. I think the only thing that made

01:21:08.409 --> 01:21:11.270
me, there's only one bit that made me laugh.

01:21:12.590 --> 01:21:16.510
or smile, I guess. It's when the, and this is

01:21:16.510 --> 01:21:19.050
the skip ahead, it's when the, it's the scene

01:21:19.050 --> 01:21:22.409
that's taken from the book when the dragon sneezes

01:21:22.409 --> 01:21:24.109
because of the feathers that are up its nostrils

01:21:24.109 --> 01:21:27.710
and the ship is propelled through the sky and

01:21:27.710 --> 01:21:30.270
one of the Vikings falls out to his death and

01:21:30.270 --> 01:21:32.529
someone looks over the side and says, who was

01:21:32.529 --> 01:21:34.609
that? And someone else responds, oh, that was

01:21:34.609 --> 01:21:37.050
Leif the Lucky. And that's the only, that's the

01:21:37.050 --> 01:21:41.680
only film that made me laugh. If you're going

01:21:41.680 --> 01:21:44.579
into expecting a Monty Python film, some of it

01:21:44.579 --> 01:21:50.340
is a bit Python -esque, but it's not... I don't

01:21:50.340 --> 01:21:52.699
think that people... It may be a question of

01:21:52.699 --> 01:21:54.819
timing, and Terry Jones talks about how he didn't

01:21:54.819 --> 01:21:58.500
have control over the editing process, which

01:21:58.500 --> 01:22:02.460
ordinarily in a comedy film, as an editor, you

01:22:02.460 --> 01:22:06.359
need to think about comic timing. And it may

01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:10.079
be a failure in the editing process, but... I

01:22:10.079 --> 01:22:12.579
didn't laugh very much in the course of the film.

01:22:13.640 --> 01:22:16.180
Yeah, it's what I guess you could call not aged

01:22:16.180 --> 01:22:19.699
well with the way society in our view of the

01:22:19.699 --> 01:22:21.819
Vikings were also kind of like how men and women

01:22:21.819 --> 01:22:26.020
are in today's society has changed. Certainly

01:22:26.020 --> 01:22:29.460
making me think back to even like the modern.

01:22:30.789 --> 01:22:33.250
revolution that was kind of like History Channel's

01:22:33.250 --> 01:22:36.409
Vikings TV series. I know that shows them raiding

01:22:36.409 --> 01:22:38.630
and kidnapping and pillaging, but I don't actually

01:22:38.630 --> 01:22:41.710
amend the much raping scene directly in it unless

01:22:41.710 --> 01:22:44.229
I've just blanked it from my mind just because

01:22:44.229 --> 01:22:46.270
fourth wall and it wasn't real and that kind

01:22:46.270 --> 01:22:49.029
of thing. But I do wonder if the direction that

01:22:49.029 --> 01:22:51.229
they took was so like kind of the representation

01:22:51.229 --> 01:22:53.789
depicting the Vikings and their behavior and

01:22:53.789 --> 01:22:55.510
the way they viewed the world and how they could

01:22:55.510 --> 01:23:00.199
do these things in quotation marks. is maybe

01:23:00.199 --> 01:23:02.760
linked to how the public perceived Vikings at

01:23:02.760 --> 01:23:05.159
that time. Yeah. Because, of course, there was

01:23:05.159 --> 01:23:07.680
kind of like the great kind of like Kirk Douglas

01:23:07.680 --> 01:23:10.659
film of the Vikings. So that was before this

01:23:10.659 --> 01:23:13.460
one, wasn't it? Kind of right in the 60s, 70s.

01:23:13.640 --> 01:23:16.300
Late 50s, late 50s that one, yeah. Late 50s,

01:23:16.300 --> 01:23:19.300
even earlier. So there might be people around

01:23:19.300 --> 01:23:21.659
that still remember that film and thought, OK,

01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:23.859
Vikings are big, burly blokes with kind of like

01:23:23.859 --> 01:23:30.159
axes, swords and leather and tons of fur. I think

01:23:30.159 --> 01:23:32.079
that's absolutely correct. I haven't made that

01:23:32.079 --> 01:23:33.880
connection. I think you're absolutely right.

01:23:34.159 --> 01:23:38.079
And again, I think that that does, although it's

01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:41.079
not as graphic, sexual violence does feature

01:23:41.079 --> 01:23:43.319
in that as something that the Vikings are doing

01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:47.159
as part of their raid. So yes, I think that is

01:23:47.159 --> 01:23:50.340
probably in the public consciousness about, you

01:23:50.340 --> 01:23:52.500
know, if you're talking about Vikings, this is

01:23:52.500 --> 01:23:54.979
the kind of material that you're talking about.

01:23:55.760 --> 01:23:58.930
But I think You know, even in in 89, I think

01:23:58.930 --> 01:24:02.250
this is this is behind behind the curve. I understand

01:24:02.250 --> 01:24:07.149
why I think partly I was thinking about why why

01:24:07.149 --> 01:24:10.689
deal with Vikings in this period. And and we're

01:24:10.689 --> 01:24:14.869
not that far off in 1989 from the big debate

01:24:14.869 --> 01:24:18.869
about political correctness. And I think at this

01:24:18.869 --> 01:24:21.250
time you get the arrival of this figure of the

01:24:21.250 --> 01:24:23.920
new man. And I think Eric the Viking, in a sense,

01:24:23.979 --> 01:24:25.859
is this idea of a new man. He's a man who's in

01:24:25.859 --> 01:24:30.739
touch with his feelings. He's not an actual man.

01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:34.199
And I think that's maybe why this seemed like

01:24:34.199 --> 01:24:38.680
a timely story to tell. I think at this moment

01:24:38.680 --> 01:24:41.500
in time, in the late 80s and then into the 90s,

01:24:41.779 --> 01:24:43.520
you're starting to get the beginnings of this

01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:46.699
debate about what is a man? What is masculinity?

01:24:48.500 --> 01:24:52.470
And you're starting to get those... those programs

01:24:52.470 --> 01:24:55.010
where men go out into the woods and strip down

01:24:55.010 --> 01:24:57.949
to the waste and cry and hug and all of that

01:24:57.949 --> 01:25:01.229
kind of thing, you know, to explore what is primal

01:25:01.229 --> 01:25:04.189
man, what is masculinity. And then conversely,

01:25:04.310 --> 01:25:06.869
you know, how does a man get in touch with his

01:25:06.869 --> 01:25:09.090
sensitive side? You know, is it the case that

01:25:09.090 --> 01:25:11.649
a man can be a home husband and, you know, do

01:25:11.649 --> 01:25:14.489
those traditional things? Can a man raise a baby?

01:25:14.710 --> 01:25:16.770
And they've got films like Three Men, maybe around

01:25:16.770 --> 01:25:18.229
that time as well, haven't you, and that kind

01:25:18.229 --> 01:25:21.489
of thing. So I think that... probably fits in

01:25:21.489 --> 01:25:25.689
with that thinking which now probably seems quite

01:25:25.689 --> 01:25:29.310
basic and sophisticated but at the time this

01:25:29.310 --> 01:25:33.350
was revolutionary stuff is what is it what is

01:25:33.350 --> 01:25:36.770
a new man and I think yeah it certainly makes

01:25:36.770 --> 01:25:40.890
me think that because I can't remember much of

01:25:40.890 --> 01:25:42.890
the film because it's been so long ago but Eric

01:25:42.890 --> 01:25:44.649
was one of the Vikings that kind of like he doesn't

01:25:44.649 --> 01:25:47.850
like getting violence he feels regret about harming

01:25:47.850 --> 01:25:50.520
and causing the death of the woman And that's

01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:52.720
kind of like something people think that the

01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:54.279
Vikings didn't feel, because we kind of like,

01:25:54.460 --> 01:25:57.880
we don't put them in that human framing. We think

01:25:57.880 --> 01:25:59.800
of them as the opposite of what we are, even

01:25:59.800 --> 01:26:02.279
though we're human all the time. And it certainly

01:26:02.279 --> 01:26:04.859
makes me think back to a more modern author,

01:26:04.859 --> 01:26:06.880
of course, which is more famous for her Vikings

01:26:06.880 --> 01:26:08.199
and the deal of Holdham, which was of course,

01:26:08.359 --> 01:26:11.079
Waseeda Cowell. And she has a similar approach,

01:26:11.279 --> 01:26:13.680
certainly in her book with Hiccup, being a Viking

01:26:13.680 --> 01:26:16.649
that isn't tall, that isn't strong. right he's

01:26:16.649 --> 01:26:18.789
clever but he's not the strongest he doesn't

01:26:18.789 --> 01:26:22.029
really want to go raiding. Of course in the films

01:26:22.029 --> 01:26:24.130
that he's now famous for both kind of like the

01:26:24.130 --> 01:26:26.029
animated animation series which I have watched

01:26:26.029 --> 01:26:29.609
absolutely loved and the real life version which

01:26:29.609 --> 01:26:33.189
yeah I saluted it was it was an honest it was

01:26:33.189 --> 01:26:36.750
an honest realisation they made a few changes

01:26:36.750 --> 01:26:38.449
I'm not going to go into too much because I don't

01:26:38.449 --> 01:26:40.289
want to spoil it but it's more dialogue options

01:26:40.289 --> 01:26:42.670
and the way they describe things that were not

01:26:42.670 --> 01:26:45.979
in the animation series. But it's almost like

01:26:45.979 --> 01:26:48.760
talking about someone being different, and that

01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:50.920
change, and whether it can be accepted. Because

01:26:50.920 --> 01:26:53.199
actually, in Glacier de Cal's first book, How

01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:55.859
to Train Your Dragon, there's two large dragons,

01:26:56.180 --> 01:26:58.000
and Hiccup's little dragon, Toothless, because

01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:00.619
he's not a gigantic night fury. He's a tiny little

01:27:00.619 --> 01:27:02.579
thing, because he picks the runt of the group

01:27:02.579 --> 01:27:05.079
in a clutch of dragon eggs, because that's just

01:27:05.079 --> 01:27:09.039
Hiccup. He just gets the odd ones out. It's Toothless's

01:27:09.039 --> 01:27:11.680
idea to go fly up, put pillows in the big dragon's

01:27:11.680 --> 01:27:13.380
nose, and make them sneeze, and make them go

01:27:13.380 --> 01:27:17.409
away. And I thought, that's the same motif going

01:27:17.409 --> 01:27:19.229
on there. And of course, I don't know if Christina

01:27:19.229 --> 01:27:22.189
Cowell is remembering. Maybe. Maybe she's got

01:27:22.189 --> 01:27:24.930
experience or had memories of reading this book.

01:27:25.430 --> 01:27:26.869
Or whether it's just because it's such a simple

01:27:26.869 --> 01:27:29.029
but brilliant idea that doesn't use a license.

01:27:32.170 --> 01:27:36.850
But yeah, it's certainly an interesting film.

01:27:37.210 --> 01:27:39.770
Maybe not a recommended watch in today's era

01:27:39.770 --> 01:27:42.770
and today's society. But I definitely recommend

01:27:42.770 --> 01:27:48.210
the book. Oh, yes, yes. The film, as I say, these

01:27:48.210 --> 01:27:51.810
were my first viewings of the film. Also, I bought

01:27:51.810 --> 01:27:54.029
the comic book, there was a comic book accompaniment,

01:27:54.029 --> 01:28:02.449
which is a very faithful version of the same

01:28:02.449 --> 01:28:06.880
story. But again, it's like I would have been

01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:09.880
reading the Asterix books at around the same

01:28:09.880 --> 01:28:13.399
time. It's similar in style to those. The artwork

01:28:13.399 --> 01:28:15.880
within this is by Graham Thompson. I thought,

01:28:16.039 --> 01:28:18.319
I didn't think I knew Graham Thompson, but I

01:28:18.319 --> 01:28:21.739
do, because have you come across Wozgidge puzzles?

01:28:23.060 --> 01:28:25.859
No. He saw puzzles, but the picture on the box

01:28:25.859 --> 01:28:29.260
is only a clue to what the result is. picture

01:28:29.260 --> 01:28:33.399
will be. You don't assemble the picture that's

01:28:33.399 --> 01:28:37.100
on the box. You assemble either the same scene

01:28:37.100 --> 01:28:40.460
but later or the same scene but early or something

01:28:40.460 --> 01:28:44.180
like that. That sounds frustrating. They're good

01:28:44.180 --> 01:28:47.539
fun and they've done a nice spin on the idea

01:28:47.539 --> 01:28:49.640
of a jigsaw but Graham Thompson, who I believe

01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:53.020
is no longer with us, he was the artist. behind

01:28:53.020 --> 01:28:57.060
this book. But yes, it's very faithful to the

01:28:57.060 --> 01:29:00.199
film. And again, that makes you wonder, well,

01:29:00.399 --> 01:29:02.239
you know, I wouldn't want my children reading

01:29:02.239 --> 01:29:05.260
this, particularly the first scene. The rest

01:29:05.260 --> 01:29:09.220
of it, by and large, you know, it's fine. It's

01:29:09.220 --> 01:29:12.960
that first scene that really, I think, nudges

01:29:12.960 --> 01:29:19.300
this into darker, more adult territory. Yeah,

01:29:19.899 --> 01:29:23.220
on my second viewing of the film, so I first

01:29:23.220 --> 01:29:26.199
watched the theatrical cut, then there was this

01:29:26.199 --> 01:29:30.020
director's son's cut that came out in 2006, I

01:29:30.020 --> 01:29:33.439
think it was, that was an attempt to rescue the

01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:35.659
film because Jones was so unhappy with how it

01:29:35.659 --> 01:29:37.159
had turned out and there were various factors

01:29:37.159 --> 01:29:40.000
at play, but he lost control of the editing process.

01:29:40.140 --> 01:29:43.600
I think that's what he feels was a large factor

01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:45.579
in the film's failure. From what I can see of

01:29:45.579 --> 01:29:47.539
the records from the box office, it was a...

01:29:47.399 --> 01:29:51.760
a huge flop. It couldn't have flopped more badly.

01:29:52.619 --> 01:29:58.199
So it was re -cut. When I watched the director's

01:29:58.199 --> 01:30:00.600
sons cut, I emerged from that feeling a little

01:30:00.600 --> 01:30:02.619
bit more positively disposed towards the film.

01:30:03.439 --> 01:30:06.840
It's not radically different from the theatrical

01:30:06.840 --> 01:30:09.859
cut. They have made some changes to the audio

01:30:09.859 --> 01:30:12.359
because the audio is very poor in the sequence

01:30:12.359 --> 01:30:14.680
when they encountered the Dragon of the North

01:30:14.680 --> 01:30:17.680
Sea. So they cleaned that up a little bit. They've

01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:21.020
restructured some of the opening scenes, reordered

01:30:21.020 --> 01:30:26.600
them. So the second scene in the theatrical cut

01:30:26.600 --> 01:30:30.159
becomes the third scene in the direct sun's cut.

01:30:32.399 --> 01:30:36.239
And they've speeded up some of the scenes towards

01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:40.300
the end as well when the crew reaches Asgard

01:30:40.300 --> 01:30:45.020
stroke Valhalla. So I did feel better about it.

01:30:46.219 --> 01:30:49.380
thematically it is interesting and there are

01:30:49.380 --> 01:30:51.420
there are certain strands that carry through

01:30:51.420 --> 01:30:54.560
the film that maybe you only spot on multiple

01:30:54.560 --> 01:30:57.439
viewings so you get the pairings and the oppositions

01:30:57.439 --> 01:31:00.579
the opposition between Ravensfjord where Eric

01:31:00.579 --> 01:31:03.960
comes from that nightmarishly violent Viking

01:31:03.960 --> 01:31:06.420
world that we've been discussing and then hi

01:31:06.420 --> 01:31:09.739
Brazil which is a land that they arrive at almost

01:31:09.739 --> 01:31:13.060
by accident but they do need to go on their on

01:31:13.060 --> 01:31:16.010
their quest to end the age of Ragnarok. High

01:31:16.010 --> 01:31:18.210
Brazil, which is at the other end of the spectrum.

01:31:18.350 --> 01:31:20.289
It's ruled over by King Arnold, who's played

01:31:20.289 --> 01:31:26.010
by Kerry Jones. They are so peaceful and so intellectual

01:31:26.010 --> 01:31:30.270
that when the island is eventually destroyed,

01:31:30.630 --> 01:31:34.090
they can't rescue themselves because they are

01:31:34.090 --> 01:31:39.390
so wedded to a nonviolent philosophy and way

01:31:39.390 --> 01:31:43.239
of living that they are sort of completely completely

01:31:43.239 --> 01:31:47.020
ridiculous and ultimately doomed. You've also

01:31:47.020 --> 01:31:50.859
got the threads that run through about, we've

01:31:50.859 --> 01:31:52.939
got the very unpleasant opening scene but it

01:31:52.939 --> 01:31:57.039
does set the mission because it means that Eric

01:31:57.039 --> 01:32:00.920
wants to go to the hereafter to rescue the woman

01:32:00.920 --> 01:32:03.159
accidentally killed and that he thinks that he's

01:32:03.159 --> 01:32:07.300
in love. So that is sort of a necessary setting

01:32:07.300 --> 01:32:09.000
up. It could maybe have been done differently

01:32:09.000 --> 01:32:13.359
but that is why he rejects violence, although

01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:15.300
he does have to fight battles in the course of

01:32:15.300 --> 01:32:18.680
the film. And then he goes on this quest to rescue

01:32:18.680 --> 01:32:21.340
Helga. But in the course of his adventure, he

01:32:21.340 --> 01:32:25.420
meets Ord on High Brazil, who is a woman who

01:32:25.420 --> 01:32:28.340
he has a more authentic love affair with. So

01:32:28.340 --> 01:32:32.939
I think that's interesting that Helga. So their

01:32:32.939 --> 01:32:37.560
encounter is in the course of a violent raid.

01:32:37.699 --> 01:32:40.619
It's a violent encounter. It's not possible that

01:32:40.619 --> 01:32:42.699
they could be in love. There is some kind of

01:32:42.699 --> 01:32:45.000
sympathy between them. You feel they want to

01:32:45.000 --> 01:32:48.279
protect and rescue each other. But the more real

01:32:48.279 --> 01:32:50.699
relationship is the one that develops with Ord,

01:32:50.760 --> 01:32:55.439
who is a more assertive, more emancipated woman,

01:32:55.619 --> 01:32:58.659
a more experienced woman. She's a sexually experienced

01:32:58.659 --> 01:33:02.069
woman where prior to meeting her is a virgin.

01:33:03.329 --> 01:33:08.630
So that's quite interesting, this more mature,

01:33:08.630 --> 01:33:12.630
more interesting relationship that develops in

01:33:12.630 --> 01:33:16.930
the course of the film. The idea of that parent

01:33:16.930 --> 01:33:19.069
and child relationship as well, which is almost

01:33:19.069 --> 01:33:22.210
pushed into the margin. You've got the character

01:33:22.210 --> 01:33:25.149
of Sven, the berserker played by Tim. Yes, I

01:33:25.149 --> 01:33:28.369
remember that one. And he's got a problem relationship

01:33:28.369 --> 01:33:32.720
with his own father. And there's another problem

01:33:32.720 --> 01:33:38.180
as well in that it's rumored by Thorfinn that

01:33:38.180 --> 01:33:41.439
Sven's granddad didn't get to Valhalla. Sven's

01:33:41.439 --> 01:33:44.100
granddad, who was also a berserker, died in his

01:33:44.100 --> 01:33:47.460
bed. And this causes a punch up, a fist fight

01:33:47.460 --> 01:33:51.119
between Sven and Thorfinn, and actually gives

01:33:51.119 --> 01:33:55.720
Erik the excuse to, he really misleads his crew

01:33:55.720 --> 01:34:00.760
to say, we need to go on a quest to find Valhalla

01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:02.720
and Asgard would be the first mortals to set

01:34:02.720 --> 01:34:07.340
foot there and will probably get killed on the

01:34:07.340 --> 01:34:09.260
journey but you know the Vikings are up for this

01:34:09.260 --> 01:34:11.680
because this sounds great it's an eventual probably

01:34:11.680 --> 01:34:15.119
get killed but also it will allow Step to prove

01:34:15.119 --> 01:34:18.680
once and for all that his granddad did get to

01:34:18.680 --> 01:34:22.760
Valhalla, to prove this beyond Dad's but it turns

01:34:22.760 --> 01:34:26.779
out that Sven's dad who's also a berserker he's

01:34:26.779 --> 01:34:31.369
this slightly nerdy berserker who's got this

01:34:31.369 --> 01:34:34.770
slightly nasal voice. He sounds more like a,

01:34:34.770 --> 01:34:38.090
you know, a fussy office worker of that type

01:34:38.090 --> 01:34:43.590
than a berserker. But he frustrates Sven by always

01:34:43.590 --> 01:34:47.189
sort of criticising him and pointing out, no,

01:34:47.210 --> 01:34:49.609
that's not what you do to be a berserker. And

01:34:49.609 --> 01:34:54.050
it's the fussiness that drives Sven into a berserk

01:34:54.050 --> 01:34:56.829
rage and causes him to sort of headbutt his way

01:34:56.829 --> 01:35:02.229
through a building. But he sort of wins his father's

01:35:02.229 --> 01:35:04.890
respect in the course of the film. But they do

01:35:04.890 --> 01:35:07.229
find in Valhalla, they do find the granddad.

01:35:07.810 --> 01:35:11.090
But it turns out that Sven's dad had exactly

01:35:11.090 --> 01:35:13.970
the same problem relationship with his own father.

01:35:15.130 --> 01:35:19.289
He calls him a bastard, I can't stand you. And

01:35:19.289 --> 01:35:21.729
that's never really resolved. But I think there

01:35:21.729 --> 01:35:24.069
is some resolution between Sven and his father.

01:35:25.560 --> 01:35:28.479
through the adventures. So it's those things

01:35:28.479 --> 01:35:34.180
that actually are quite nicely drawn. But I didn't

01:35:34.180 --> 01:35:36.260
notice them on the first viewing. The first thing

01:35:36.260 --> 01:35:39.300
I just came out of it thinking, what an almighty

01:35:39.300 --> 01:35:44.560
mess. Some of it isn't well executed. The drawing

01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:48.880
looks bad. The scale of it is good, but it looks

01:35:48.880 --> 01:35:55.079
like a big puppet. The fight sequences are clunky.

01:35:55.939 --> 01:36:00.720
There's unfortunate bits like the slave drivers

01:36:00.720 --> 01:36:06.699
on Halfdan, the Black's ship. So Halfdan is one

01:36:06.699 --> 01:36:09.960
of the sort of recurring villains in the story,

01:36:10.619 --> 01:36:15.680
who is a Japanese slave driver and he's only

01:36:15.680 --> 01:36:19.689
really there so that jokes. that sort of inverts

01:36:19.689 --> 01:36:24.390
western racism can be played out on screen but

01:36:24.390 --> 01:36:26.689
it's not again it's not it's not funny and it

01:36:26.689 --> 01:36:29.909
doesn't it doesn't land well you know maybe that

01:36:29.909 --> 01:36:32.170
would have would have seemed less problematic

01:36:32.170 --> 01:36:36.569
at the time that's another way in which it shows

01:36:36.569 --> 01:36:40.909
its age as a product of the of the 80s so I don't

01:36:40.909 --> 01:36:44.329
want to you know I feel bad in a way shooting

01:36:44.329 --> 01:36:50.380
it down but Like I say, it took a couple of viewings

01:36:50.380 --> 01:36:55.239
for me to maybe appreciate the good parts of

01:36:55.239 --> 01:37:00.079
it. And it took reading and hearing other people

01:37:00.079 --> 01:37:03.560
gloss the film for me to think, OK, I'll look

01:37:03.560 --> 01:37:06.579
at it in those terms and maybe come away with

01:37:06.579 --> 01:37:09.300
a different appreciation of it. The sequence

01:37:09.300 --> 01:37:11.680
of going over the edge of the world looks good.

01:37:12.979 --> 01:37:16.600
When they land in Asgard, that looks That looks

01:37:16.600 --> 01:37:18.500
nice, I would imagine would be good on the big

01:37:18.500 --> 01:37:21.760
screen. The production design of Asgard, you've

01:37:21.760 --> 01:37:25.920
got those church -type details carved into the

01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:29.640
pillars of the Hall of the Gods. So the production

01:37:29.640 --> 01:37:33.560
design, it does veer between, you know, doesn't

01:37:33.560 --> 01:37:36.319
look very good to stuff that does look good and

01:37:36.319 --> 01:37:39.560
clearly, you know, there's a budget for some

01:37:39.560 --> 01:37:46.359
of this to be captured. I do feel a bit conflicted

01:37:46.359 --> 01:37:49.260
about it. I'm glad I've seen it now. It's not

01:37:49.260 --> 01:37:52.420
a complete write -off, but it's, yeah, it's not

01:37:52.420 --> 01:37:58.920
a family film. No, no, it's, yeah, it's had its

01:37:58.920 --> 01:38:02.350
time, it had its moment. as brief as it was and

01:38:02.350 --> 01:38:04.369
the reason why many people don't talk about it

01:38:04.369 --> 01:38:06.989
or remember it is for all the reasons we have

01:38:06.989 --> 01:38:10.010
discussed and the fact that society and our view

01:38:10.010 --> 01:38:12.010
of the Vikings and ourselves hasn't just moved

01:38:12.010 --> 01:38:15.470
on a lot more because it's like jokes jokes have

01:38:15.470 --> 01:38:19.090
an expiry date they don't humor isn't it doesn't

01:38:19.090 --> 01:38:21.890
always move with society jokes have a period

01:38:21.890 --> 01:38:26.510
of the time and they fit that period um whereas

01:38:26.510 --> 01:38:28.810
the book the book is timeless it's definitely

01:38:28.810 --> 01:38:31.310
it I guess you could give it the word classic.

01:38:31.430 --> 01:38:36.229
It is a classic children's book and it's marvellously

01:38:36.229 --> 01:38:40.689
simple, fantastical, full of adventure. Not really

01:38:40.689 --> 01:38:43.289
many scary bits. I don't think I have yet to

01:38:43.289 --> 01:38:45.550
see or find out if my five year old will be scared

01:38:45.550 --> 01:38:47.569
of the dogmen or not. She has recently become

01:38:47.569 --> 01:38:51.069
scared of zombies after seeing a very badly animated,

01:38:51.289 --> 01:38:55.270
simple animation as well. And it's kind of like...

01:38:55.369 --> 01:38:57.970
a Japanese or a Chinese cartoon on Netflix involving

01:38:57.970 --> 01:38:59.710
zombies, but she's now paranoid that there are

01:38:59.710 --> 01:39:02.750
zombies in rooms where there are lights. Right.

01:39:04.710 --> 01:39:07.930
If anyone has answers, let me know. She got long

01:39:07.930 --> 01:39:09.590
hair because there is a creature that lives in

01:39:09.590 --> 01:39:12.029
your hair in the book, isn't there? The Snatch

01:39:12.029 --> 01:39:16.449
Troll. That's maybe the most sinister. I think

01:39:16.449 --> 01:39:19.149
if you're a child with long hair, you might be

01:39:19.149 --> 01:39:20.930
worried that you've got a Snatch Troll living

01:39:20.930 --> 01:39:23.890
in your... living in your hair. Although the

01:39:23.890 --> 01:39:25.890
Snatch Troll gives themselves away. They give

01:39:25.890 --> 01:39:28.050
themselves away, don't they, by making things

01:39:28.050 --> 01:39:32.229
disappear in an inexplicable way. So I think

01:39:32.229 --> 01:39:34.109
you'd get warning if you did have a Snatch Troll

01:39:34.109 --> 01:39:36.449
in your hair. Something would have gone missing,

01:39:36.770 --> 01:39:38.510
whether it was your cup of tea or the slippers

01:39:38.510 --> 01:39:41.210
you're wearing on your feet. It could be anything.

01:39:41.649 --> 01:39:46.449
But I think she'd be all right. I don't think

01:39:46.449 --> 01:39:49.550
there's too much in there that would play on

01:39:49.550 --> 01:39:52.600
a child's on a child's mind really I don't know

01:39:52.600 --> 01:39:55.020
all children are different but yeah don't don't

01:39:55.020 --> 01:40:00.539
give her the comic book but yeah the book from

01:40:00.539 --> 01:40:05.460
1983 is uh is fine yeah well she's actually recently

01:40:05.460 --> 01:40:08.979
picked up as her bedtime story um a nice children's

01:40:08.979 --> 01:40:11.060
story that I picked up on my big debut in Norway

01:40:11.060 --> 01:40:13.520
last summer called the little troll and it's

01:40:13.520 --> 01:40:15.939
like a classic Norwegian story it's got beautiful

01:40:15.939 --> 01:40:17.920
artwork really kind of like classic beautiful

01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:20.439
artwork because not all children's books have

01:40:20.439 --> 01:40:22.460
beautiful artwork these days sometimes it's just

01:40:22.460 --> 01:40:25.500
flat 2d squiggles but it's all about trolls in

01:40:25.500 --> 01:40:27.699
all the various guys is some with multiple heads

01:40:27.699 --> 01:40:29.520
i mean i remember when we first read it when

01:40:29.520 --> 01:40:31.800
i came back from bulway there's a troll that

01:40:31.800 --> 01:40:33.960
has a troll woman that has three heads but only

01:40:33.960 --> 01:40:36.239
one eye and i share the eyeball between the heads

01:40:36.239 --> 01:40:38.199
which made me immediately think of kind of like

01:40:38.199 --> 01:40:42.220
the fates from Greek mythology um but yeah she

01:40:42.220 --> 01:40:44.359
seems fine with that that's not given a nightmare

01:40:44.359 --> 01:40:47.630
but strangely a badly animated zombie on Netflix,

01:40:47.630 --> 01:40:50.310
for all places, has. But there we go. As I said,

01:40:50.510 --> 01:40:52.069
child psychology. If anyone has the answers,

01:40:52.229 --> 01:40:55.909
let me know. I'd love to know how to work within

01:40:55.909 --> 01:40:59.069
every evolving child's mind. But wow, we have

01:40:59.069 --> 01:41:01.789
talked so much. And I really hope that this has

01:41:01.789 --> 01:41:03.970
enlightened our audience, viewers and listeners,

01:41:04.430 --> 01:41:06.529
and encouraged you all to do go out and get the

01:41:06.529 --> 01:41:09.149
book by Toby Jones, illustrated by Michael Foreman,

01:41:09.350 --> 01:41:11.569
the saga of Eric the Viking. You can get either

01:41:11.569 --> 01:41:14.470
the standard classic version that Chris had,

01:41:14.529 --> 01:41:17.270
or you might still be able to get the 30th. special

01:41:17.270 --> 01:41:19.470
anniversary edition with a nice full word in

01:41:19.470 --> 01:41:21.949
by Terry Jones himself and of course the extra

01:41:21.949 --> 01:41:25.470
pictures and if you've listened to now on our

01:41:25.470 --> 01:41:27.109
audio platforms do join us on YouTube and you

01:41:27.109 --> 01:41:29.989
will see the beautiful artwork that pops up during

01:41:29.989 --> 01:41:32.649
our discussion to give you a taster of what the

01:41:32.649 --> 01:41:35.670
artwork is like. Amber thank you so much we have

01:41:35.670 --> 01:41:37.829
talked about a lot and I've really really really

01:41:37.829 --> 01:41:40.470
enjoyed it. Yes me too thank you Becky it's been

01:41:40.470 --> 01:41:43.250
it's been great talking to you and and revisiting

01:41:43.250 --> 01:41:45.859
particularly particularly the book, but I have,

01:41:45.880 --> 01:41:48.000
as I say, I've enjoyed all of the, The Viking

01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:49.640
and all of its incarnations. So it's been a lot

01:41:49.640 --> 01:41:52.880
of fun. Yeah, it's been really nice to almost

01:41:52.880 --> 01:41:55.220
like look back at how Vikings represented at

01:41:55.220 --> 01:41:58.180
different points up until now. And of course,

01:41:58.180 --> 01:42:00.439
we all know kind of like what TV series and films

01:42:00.439 --> 01:42:02.199
are doing with Vikings now and going forward.

01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:05.399
But it's nice to see that transition and how

01:42:05.399 --> 01:42:07.859
things have changed and how they could be bad

01:42:07.859 --> 01:42:10.180
and also could be good in the case of the book.

01:42:10.619 --> 01:42:12.500
So thank you once again for your time, Chris.

01:42:12.939 --> 01:42:16.340
Thank you. And of course, if you want more Valhalla

01:42:16.340 --> 01:42:18.399
Conversations, do hit subscribe wherever you're

01:42:18.399 --> 01:42:20.420
watching or listening today. This is episode

01:42:20.420 --> 01:42:23.779
20, quite a milestone, and I've got more guests

01:42:23.779 --> 01:42:26.779
lined up, recordings to come. I'm going to attempt

01:42:26.779 --> 01:42:29.020
to drop a new episode every two weeks, but bear

01:42:29.020 --> 01:42:31.220
with, there is the Christmas period coming up.

01:42:31.680 --> 01:42:34.100
But I have got a long list of guests. I just

01:42:34.100 --> 01:42:37.159
need time to get them all on. But yes, thank

01:42:37.159 --> 01:42:38.520
you very much for listening and watching wherever

01:42:38.520 --> 01:42:40.859
you are today, and we shall see you again in

01:42:40.859 --> 01:42:43.399
Valhalla soon for more conversations of all things

01:42:43.399 --> 01:43:04.550
Norse. Thank you very much for listening to this

01:43:04.550 --> 01:43:08.010
episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between

01:43:08.010 --> 01:43:11.390
my special guests and myself. Please do check

01:43:11.390 --> 01:43:13.829
out the episode blurb for links to their works

01:43:13.829 --> 01:43:16.869
and websites. If you liked this episode let me

01:43:16.869 --> 01:43:19.649
know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if

01:43:19.649 --> 01:43:21.949
you learned something new in the comments and

01:43:21.949 --> 01:43:25.050
of course click subscribe to Valhalla Conversations

01:43:25.050 --> 01:43:28.390
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01:43:28.390 --> 01:43:30.930
podcast can be watched on YouTube and YouTube

01:43:30.930 --> 01:43:34.590
Music and it can also be listened to on Spotify,

01:43:35.090 --> 01:43:39.369
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01:43:39.609 --> 01:43:42.170
We hope you can join us in Valhalla again soon

01:43:42.170 --> 01:43:43.729
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