WEBVTT

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Welcome everyone to a special bonus episode of

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Valhalla Conversations titled Queens and Widows,

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the Women of the King and Conqueror series recently

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released by BBC and coming to other networks

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in other parts of the world soon, hopefully at

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some point. There has been a lot of debate and

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a lot of talk on this series. Not all of it good

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and I personally have my own grievances, issues,

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complaints with that series, but we're trying

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to be good and neutral on that point because

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I don't want to waste a lot of air talking about

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bad things. What we can do is take the good thing

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out of the series, which is they did present

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certain depictions, some good, some not so good,

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of the women behind the men who made 1066, the

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incredible and remarkable world, country -changing

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year that it was. And I'm delighted to say that

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my special guest to discuss all of this with

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me is returning historian Sharon Bennett Connolly.

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And I have to say, ladies and viewers, that you

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do need to get her book, Silk and the Sword,

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The Women of the Norman Conquest, because this

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is basically the Bible. for what the women were

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doing and how strong their influence was in this

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era from Matilda who was the wife of William

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the Normandy, Edith Swanek and Edith of Mercia

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the wives of Harold Godwinson, of course we've

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got Geetha the wife of Godwin which is Harold's

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father and of course we have Queen Emma who was

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queen twice to two kings of England and she then

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had two sons by each of those husbands become

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king of England also. And there's lots of other

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fascinating female figures in her book, just

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Lady Godiva and Saint Margaret as well. So we're

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going to focus mainly on the key figures in the

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series, which was Queen Emma, Gaitha, Lord of

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Lady, wrong word there, the wife of Godwin, Harold

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Godwinson's two wives, Edith Swan Neck and Edith

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of Mercia, and of course Matilda, because they

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all have roles in the series. They all show a

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certain influence to shape or change the minds

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and the decisions made in the Sarathwa area.

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And the series, as I said, portrays some good,

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some bad, but we're going to explore the truth,

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the facts, the real history, and Sharon, because

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she's written this wonderful book and done all

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the research, I know, I can trust her word for

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it, because it's going to be more accurate than

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the TV series ever was. Welcome again to the

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podcast, Sharon. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you

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for having me. We were of course both discussing

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this series some time before I hit the record

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button, both expressing our grievances but also

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acknowledging that it's time that these women

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did have a highlight, a spotlight shone upon

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them and I've recently started reading Silk and

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the Sword written by Sharon and I'm going to...

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treat you viewers and listeners to a sample of

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the introduction because it absolutely sums up

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beautifully why these women should be learned

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about, studied, forget learning about Alfred,

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learn about Queen Emma, because that's all equally

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brilliant. So is everyone sitting comfortably?

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I'll try not to waddle too long, it's literally

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only a page and a bit. So the year 1066 was when

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the fates of three kings and a duke decided the

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future of England. It was a year of invasion,

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of war and conquest and death. The year started

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with the death of Edward the Confessor in January

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1066. Edward died leaving no son and therefore

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no direct heir. The nearest familial heir was

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Edgar the Attling, the son of Edward's nephew,

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Edward the Exile. However, Edgar was just a teenager

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and England needed a strong hand on the rudder.

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The wittam quickly elected the country's strongest

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baron, Harold Godwinson, Earl of Wessex, to take

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charge of the realm, and though sooner was Edward's

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body in his tomb, then Harold was crowned King,

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King Harold II of England. It should have been

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a smooth transition of power, leading to a long

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reign and much needed stability in the country.

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However, England was a ribbon with deep divisions

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amongst nobility, and to make matters worse,

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Both Edward and Harold was said to have promised

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the crown to another man, Duke William of Normandy.

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In this mix came a third contender, Harold Hadrada,

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a former member of the revered Varangian Guard

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on Constantinople. Harold Hadrada was King of

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Norway, and with the help of Harold's disaffected

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brother Tostig, saw an opportunity to make England

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a Norse kingdom once again. Gosh, how life would

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have been different if that had happened. Oh,

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a 40 -year -old promise between the kings of

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England and Denmark gave Harold the excuse to

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stake his claim on England and launch his own

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invasion. The history books have always concentrated

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on the battles and the lives of the men involved.

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You would be forgiven for thinking that women

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had no place in these male -dominated cataclysmic

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events. Most studies of the period entirely ignore

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the contributions of women or sideline them to

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only a mention on the retelling of the events

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of that fateful year. However, if you look deep

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into the story of 1066, of the years preceding

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it and the years which followed, it is clear

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that several women had pivotal roles in the history

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of the era, from the enigmatic and influential

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Emma of Normandy in the first half of the 11th

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century to William the Conqueror's Duchess and

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Queen Matilda. and Margaret, the sated Queen

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of Scotland, at the center to close. Women were

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at the center of events. Their contributions

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gave rise to spectacular legends, from the story

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of Lady Godiva to the miracles associated with

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Saint Margaret. Their actions and family loyalties

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helped to shape the country that England would

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become. The stories of these women are far from

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straightforward. Their lives were just as complex

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and fascinating as the great men of their time.

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In peeling away the legend from the known facts

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and using the chronicles from the time, we can

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rebuild the lives of the women who played significant

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roles in the story of 1066. Harold II of England

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had been with Edith Swan Neck for 20 years, but

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in 1066, in order to strengthen his hold on the

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throne, he married Edith, the sister of two Whales.

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William of Normandy's Duchess, but killed at

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a Flanders, had supposedly only agreed to marry

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the duke after he pulled her pigtails and thrown

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her in the mud. Harold Hadrada had two wives

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also, apparently at the same time, and all of

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these women had their own duties and responsibilities

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and knew their influence over those around them

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to help shape the future of England. If you want

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more, please go buy her book, Silk and the Sword,

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it's available now. So, as your book starts off

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with, quite correctly, It starts off chronologically

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with the 11th century, well first half of the

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11th century with Queen Emma and her entrance

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into English Royal Society and how then she very

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much helped shape physically and diplomatically

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the events that then followed. So could you for

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our viewers and listeners who have never heard

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of Queen Emma and just reference she's always

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referred to as Lady Emma in the TV series, could

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you maybe give us a brief introduction onto where

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Emma came from and her role in this. Well Emma

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was the daughter of the Duke of Normandy although

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her dad was dead by the time she married Ethelred

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II. She was married to Ethelred II as part of

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a peace agreement between her brother and Ethelred.

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The Vikings had been using Normandy to winter.

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spend the winter there and then spend the summers

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raiding from Normandy the English shores. So

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Ethel II had just lost his wife had died so he

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made this agreement with the Duke of Normandy

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that he would marry the Duke's sister and the

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Duke would stop the Vikings from using Normandy

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as a jumping off point. So he married Emma, her

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name was changed on her wedding day to Elf Gifu

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which is, to be honest, everybody in those days

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was called Elfgifu or Elfgiver. Ethelred's first

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wife was also Elfgiver. Cnut's first wife was

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also Elfgiver. So it's like, why on earth change

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her name to everybody else's name? But yes, her

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name was changed to Emma. But if you look in

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the, to Elfgifu, but if you look in the Anglo

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-Saxon Chronicle, she is referenced as the lady.

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And that's all they give her. They don't give

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her a name. They just call her The Lady. And

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it's like, this is how significant she was. You

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didn't need her name. Everybody knew who Emma

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was. Because she had first married Ethelred II

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and had two sons and a daughter with Ethelred.

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And then after Ethelred's death in 1016, Her

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sons were sent to Normandy for safety because

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Cnut did have this habit of killing off Aethelred's

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sons. And she agreed to marry Cnut in 1017, which

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was... I mean, it was quite an interesting arrangement.

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Cnut was about 18 at the time, and Emma... Had

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been married for 16 years, so she must have been

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around 30 But as far as from what I could tell

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Can you made a really sensible move in marrying

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Emma? She knew England. She had been at the height

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of The English court for 16 years So she would

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be, she could advise Canute. He trusted her implicitly.

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She was in charge of the Royal Treasury. You

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know, she kept the money. A lot of husbands do

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that, I know. I let the wife worry about the

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money. Well, Canute was one of them. And he and

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Emma had a son and a daughter, Arthur Canute

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was the son, which is brilliant. What are you

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going to call your son? Well, I'm a whole canute,

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so he's half a canute. And that's how I remembered

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it since I was about six. That is the mum joke

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that I have pretty much become. But yeah, she

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was incredibly... significant as the wife of

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Ethelred and then as the wife of Canute, more

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of the as the wife of Canute than Ethelred. She

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does seem to have been in the background with

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Ethelred, but she was a young bride. So it took

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her a while to find her feet and you see this

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a lot in medieval times where women don't come

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into their own until after they've had children

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because having a son secures your position until

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that point. your husband can easily discard you,

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asked Henry VIII. Well, it's not easy, but it

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can be done. But when she marries Caneu, she's

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older than him, she's mature, she's experienced,

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and she brings that to the relationship. But

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she also makes this agreement with Caneu, I think,

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that he will not go after her sons. They're safe

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in Normandy, effectively disinherited because,

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you know, Canute's on the throne as a Danish

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king rather than an English one. But they are

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his rivals. And when you think that he sent Edmund

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Ironside's sons to Sweden, who were just toddlers,

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with instructions that they be killed, Emma knew

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that was the fate of Alfred and Edward. So she

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did. make this agreement with, can you, I'll

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be your wife, I'll help you in England, leave

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my sons alone. That's my theory anyway, and it

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seems to be borne out by the fact that he did

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leave Emma's sons alone, and Alfred and Edward

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grew up in Normandy. If anyone's watching King

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and Conquer and going, who's Alfred? He's referred

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to as Ethel in the program. mainly because they've

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got Harold harking back to the time of Alfred

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the Great, so they couldn't use his real name

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Alfred, so they had to call him something else,

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and they came up with Ethel. It took me a minute

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when I was asking it, who's Ethel? You killed

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Ethel, Ethel should have lived, not you. And

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she has Ethel as the eldest son, whereas Edward

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was eldest, not Alfred. So it is confusing in

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that book the way they portray Emma certainly

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in the early episode has been this strong woman

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is Brilliant, it's thoroughly accurate. Yes.

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I'm pretty sure that she was commanding and I

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Like the fact that they haven't got her as a

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torturer like they did in Vikings Valhalla they

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say that one from Matilda which don't get me

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started but they have got the the only problem

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with the program and their portrayal of Emma

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as being the power behind Edward's throne is

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it is totally not true yes she was she was a

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significant force behind her first son the son

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who became king first Arthur Canute who was actually

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younger than Edward But he was her son by Canute.

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And when Canute died in 1035, there had been

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this agreement where Canute's son Harold, by

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his first wife, would rule northern England and

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Arthur Canute would rule southern England. But

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Arthur Canute at the time was in Denmark, fighting

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and ruling in Denmark, and she had no inclination

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to come to England. So Harold seized the whole

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country. But then Harold dies in 1040 and Arthur

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Cnut, who had just been planning on invading

00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.000
England at the time, came back to England. Emma

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had been in exile in Flanders after Harold had

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seized the whole of England. She'd gone to Flanders.

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She and Arthur Cnut came back to England in 1040

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and ruled. And in 1041, Arthur Cnut actually

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made an agreement, appeared to have made an agreement

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with Edward and brought him back to England as

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his successor, because Arthur Cnut didn't have

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any children, had no wife, had showed no signs

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of having children, which is really weird, because

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neither of Cnut's sons had a wife or children.

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It's like something was going on there, but I

00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:05.960
don't know what, but Arthur Cnut didn't have

00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.059
any children, so he recognized his older brother,

00:16:09.340 --> 00:16:13.659
Edward, as his heir. And I think, yes, I'm pretty

00:16:13.659 --> 00:16:17.720
sure Emma had a say in that and was persuading

00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.679
half, can you, you know, when England needs the

00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.679
stability, it's not good when a country doesn't

00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.139
have an recognised heir. So if you recognise

00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:28.919
Edward, there's this, you know, if you get married,

00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:30.799
have kids later on, well, then we'll change it,

00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.919
but recognise Edward and this happens. So she

00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.399
was behind that. But then when Edward came to

00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:44.590
the throne, after Arthur Canute died. This is

00:16:44.590 --> 00:16:48.090
what they didn't portray in the program. There

00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:52.990
is this seething underlying anger from Edward

00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:56.450
that his mother had totally and utterly betrayed

00:16:56.450 --> 00:17:02.789
him. She had left him and his brother to rot

00:17:02.789 --> 00:17:04.849
in Normandy as far as he was concerned while

00:17:04.849 --> 00:17:09.019
she was living the high life with Canute. And

00:17:09.019 --> 00:17:15.240
worse than that, in 1037, somebody had sent a

00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.559
letter to Edward and Alfred in Normandy, saying,

00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:22.960
now's the time, come and seize the throne. And

00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.880
that letter was purported to be from Emma. And

00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.720
Edward and Alfred both set up separate fleets.

00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:36.640
Edward raided the Isle of Wight and Alfred landed

00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:42.339
in England. And no, he wasn't murdered as soon

00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:50.140
as he landed on the beach. He actually was seized

00:17:50.140 --> 00:17:53.920
whilst staying at Godwin's house in Guildford.

00:17:54.259 --> 00:17:59.400
I think it was Guildford. And he was seized by

00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:04.380
Harold Harefoot's forces. He was blinded and

00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:07.859
castrated and sent to a monastery where he died

00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:13.359
of his wounds. The blinding as we see within

00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:17.819
the program with Alfred Ethel being blinded by

00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:22.359
being stabbed in the eyes by Godwin. And again

00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.099
in the last episode I'll not say too much just

00:18:25.099 --> 00:18:26.640
in case people haven't got there yet because

00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.559
we're still on I think they're only on episode

00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.140
four actually on the schedule programming aren't

00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:34.440
they? But I've been watching it on iPlayer to

00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:39.579
get it over and done with. So the idea of blinding

00:18:39.579 --> 00:18:43.480
someone was to make them incapable of ruling

00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:47.819
because you you, as far as they were concerned

00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:50.339
in those days, you had to be able to see to be

00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:52.079
a ruler because you had to be able to fight,

00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.920
you had to be able to lead armies and if you

00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.400
are blind you can't do that. The idea of castration,

00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:01.079
well that's going to, that's ended the family

00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:05.480
line there and then, hasn't it? So it's kind

00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:08.259
of brutal but it was something that happened

00:19:08.259 --> 00:19:12.480
quite regularly in those days. So that happened

00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:17.500
in 1037 and Alfred died. and Edward blamed Emma

00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:20.880
for Alfred's death, for not supporting them and

00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.599
bringing them back to England and for her part

00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:25.519
in Alfred's death. Whether or not she played

00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.779
a part in Alfred's death, she says she didn't.

00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.519
The one thing about the Norman Conquest is we

00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:37.990
have two books. that were written or commissioned

00:19:37.990 --> 00:19:42.750
rather by women at that time. One is the Emerencomium,

00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:46.369
which is basically Emma's autobiography. She

00:19:46.369 --> 00:19:50.029
didn't write it, but it's her words and in that

00:19:50.029 --> 00:19:53.549
she says she didn't. write the letter to Alfred.

00:19:53.849 --> 00:19:56.410
And I don't think she did either. I think that

00:19:56.410 --> 00:19:58.990
was probably Harold trying to get his hands on

00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:01.910
Emma's two sons, the two rivals to his throne.

00:20:02.349 --> 00:20:05.089
Forge a letter from Emma, get them to come to

00:20:05.089 --> 00:20:08.430
England and capture them. Easy peasy. And it

00:20:08.430 --> 00:20:10.130
worked with one of them. It's just Edward got

00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:14.609
away. So yeah, and sorry. So we said the Emma

00:20:14.609 --> 00:20:16.650
and Comium. The other book is the Vita Edwardi,

00:20:16.690 --> 00:20:19.789
which was commissioned by Edward, the confessor's

00:20:19.789 --> 00:20:25.230
wife, Edith. of Wessex. So you know how we were

00:20:25.230 --> 00:20:27.690
saying at the beginning, how women were an integral

00:20:27.690 --> 00:20:31.329
part of this. Women were also an integral part

00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:35.990
of the actual recording of the history, which

00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:39.430
is brilliant. It's not something you get all

00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:44.460
the time. It just shows how. significant they

00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:46.900
were and how influential they were because they

00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:49.200
could actually commission these books. And Emma

00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:53.160
was a supreme propagandist. She had this book

00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:57.039
written to tell her side of the story when most

00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:01.700
women's voices are silenced. She had this power

00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:04.460
and this strength to actually go, you know what,

00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:06.220
I'm going to get my side written down before

00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:11.019
anybody else says anything. But then when Edward

00:21:11.019 --> 00:21:15.809
becomes king, That's all turned around. She's

00:21:15.809 --> 00:21:18.250
not the power behind the throne then. Edward,

00:21:18.250 --> 00:21:24.529
like I said, he resented everything she'd done.

00:21:24.970 --> 00:21:28.029
And one of his first moves after his coronation

00:21:28.029 --> 00:21:31.410
was to gather around him his Earls Godwin and

00:21:31.410 --> 00:21:35.750
Leofric of Mercia and ride to Winchester where

00:21:35.750 --> 00:21:38.349
Emma lived and held the treasury. Like I said,

00:21:38.470 --> 00:21:40.089
you know, she'd been looking after the money

00:21:40.089 --> 00:21:43.109
since, can you? So she had control of the treasury

00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:46.490
and he seized the treasury from her and told

00:21:46.490 --> 00:21:49.089
her to stay on her estate. Basically she was

00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:52.490
banished from court. She wasn't the power behind

00:21:52.490 --> 00:21:54.910
Edward's throne. She couldn't influence Edward

00:21:54.910 --> 00:21:58.430
at all, because he hated her. He loathed her.

00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:01.890
They did make peace eventually for the last few

00:22:01.890 --> 00:22:04.470
years of her life. And she died in about 1052,

00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:07.549
I think. And I can say this bit, because I know

00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:11.029
it was on on Sunday. She was not kicked to death

00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:17.950
by her own son and beaten with a crown. She died

00:22:17.950 --> 00:22:23.960
peacefully in her bed. without the influence

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.680
that she'd experienced through her life. But

00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.180
she is such, she died in 1052 as well and yes

00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:33.319
you'd look at it and go well then why is she

00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.839
in something about 1066 because she had been

00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:42.380
for half a century, she had one constant in English

00:22:42.380 --> 00:22:46.000
history. Kings had changed what? Ethelred, Edmund,

00:22:46.299 --> 00:22:54.900
Cnut, Swain, Arthur Cnut, Harold, and Edward

00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:58.160
the Confessor. There had been seven kings in

00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:05.660
that time, and the one queen until Edith of Wessex,

00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:12.000
the one queen. So that's her significance in

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.599
the 11th century. For the first half of that

00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:22.059
century, she was the queen. She's such a remarkable

00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:24.940
figure and I'm so glad I came across the book

00:23:24.940 --> 00:23:28.119
by Harriet O 'Brien, Queen Emma and the Vikings

00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:31.099
which is another great recommended read. I would

00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:32.539
show it off to the camera but I've currently

00:23:32.539 --> 00:23:35.180
given it to my mum who's retired so I hope she'd

00:23:35.180 --> 00:23:37.680
pick it up. She hasn't yet because she's watched

00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.240
as many historical programs as me and after she's

00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.500
finished because she binged also on iPlayer she

00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:45.759
goes like she goes who's who and did it really

00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.460
happen and so I had to have a long talk with

00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:52.299
her about how significant Emma was and how backwards

00:23:52.299 --> 00:23:54.819
they've got the dynamic between her and Edward

00:23:54.819 --> 00:23:57.500
and of course the throne. Yes he was known as

00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:00.220
Edward the confessor because of his highest nature

00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:02.700
and he's supporting lots of clergy and church

00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.180
and of course he brought loads of Normans with

00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:11.279
him when he came over. Yeah because he did grow

00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.420
up most of his adult life in Normandy with very

00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:19.019
little contact probably with Emma and I think

00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:21.759
there's one thing strange enough that Bikingsville

00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:24.019
Hallow series got quite right in that they showed

00:24:24.019 --> 00:24:27.519
Edward being angry that his mother has given

00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.619
his throne to the man she then married and then

00:24:30.619 --> 00:24:33.240
to her sons with that same man because he's been

00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.400
jumped not once but twice because of course like

00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.339
we have in our own royal family and there's Harry

00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.839
I aptly said in his own biography kind of like

00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.740
the spare that's what kind of like so that's

00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.019
what edward now feels when he used to be the

00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:52.019
prime next candidate next in line kind of like

00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:58.180
hey what a job for life except edward was never

00:24:58.180 --> 00:25:04.759
the next in line he was when he was born when

00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:08.430
he was born He was, no there was an Athel stamp.

00:25:08.730 --> 00:25:11.750
When he was born he was the eldest son of Emma

00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:15.190
and Athelred II. But Athelred and his first wife

00:25:15.190 --> 00:25:19.069
had about six sons. That's it, yes. And even

00:25:19.069 --> 00:25:22.509
when Athelred died, three of them including Edmund

00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:25.069
Ironside were still living. Two of them were,

00:25:25.390 --> 00:25:28.069
one of them died I think about the same time.

00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:33.309
Another one was murdered in 1017. So he was never

00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:38.359
actually heir to the throne until Arthur Canute

00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:45.559
made him such. That's a very good point. It was

00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.579
all about Edmund and Athelstan. Even technically,

00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:54.579
he wasn't the heir of Ethelred II because Edmund

00:25:54.579 --> 00:26:00.019
Ironside's two sons survived and prospered in

00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:02.319
Eastern Europe. That is a story that doesn't

00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:06.700
get told in King and Conqueror. But in 1057,

00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:10.259
Edward the exile was brought back to England.

00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.519
He was the eldest son and heir of Edmund the

00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:18.500
Second Dineside and Edward the confessor's nearest

00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:21.559
relative. You know, he was Edward's nephew. Unfortunately,

00:26:21.619 --> 00:26:24.039
he died the week after arriving in England, leaving

00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:27.759
his young son Edgar as the heir, as you mentioned,

00:26:27.859 --> 00:26:32.529
Edgar the athlete. But yeah. Edward the confessor

00:26:32.529 --> 00:26:37.630
was never actually technically the heir. And

00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:41.309
I certainly kind of like should point out to

00:26:41.309 --> 00:26:45.829
those who have seen the series so far that well

00:26:45.829 --> 00:26:47.829
I guess I should ask you kind of like what evidence

00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:49.910
have you found when you're kind of like writing

00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:52.069
about all this that kind of like did you ever

00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:56.309
come across sources that referenced Edward offering

00:26:56.309 --> 00:26:58.809
the crown to William in some formal way because

00:26:58.809 --> 00:27:01.009
we know for a fact it didn't come from Enna.

00:27:01.369 --> 00:27:03.069
We can categorically say that it didn't come

00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:06.609
from Enna but did Edward the Confessor do anything

00:27:06.609 --> 00:27:10.329
like what they're suggesting in the series? There's

00:27:10.329 --> 00:27:14.450
only one mention of it and I think it's a Norman

00:27:14.450 --> 00:27:20.950
Chronicle that William the Godwins were exiled

00:27:20.950 --> 00:27:29.500
from England in 1051 -1052. And during that time,

00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:33.160
William is said to have, by this one chronicle,

00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:38.400
to have visited England. And maybe Edward offered

00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.859
him the throne then. But it wasn't Edward's to

00:27:41.859 --> 00:27:46.240
offer. So I really doubt he did. And like I said,

00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:50.359
this was 1051, 1052. Edward then found out his

00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:53.660
nephew was still alive in Eastern Europe and

00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:57.450
sent embassies to Edward the exile to bring him

00:27:57.450 --> 00:28:02.990
home. And the first one was unsuccessful. The

00:28:02.990 --> 00:28:07.470
second one, he actually sent Harold to Edward

00:28:07.470 --> 00:28:10.630
and Harold was the one who escorted Edward back

00:28:10.630 --> 00:28:14.869
to England. So even if Edward had offered the

00:28:14.869 --> 00:28:18.730
throne to William in 1051 or 1052, he certainly

00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:20.869
didn't think William should have the throne in

00:28:20.869 --> 00:28:26.569
1057 when he was bringing his nephew back. So

00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:31.289
I think that one is possibly one of the, just

00:28:31.289 --> 00:28:35.309
something made up by a chronicler just to insert

00:28:35.309 --> 00:28:38.950
in that there was this old promise. Because the

00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:40.750
other thing to remember is that just because

00:28:40.750 --> 00:28:45.170
chronicles say that they're written about 1066

00:28:45.170 --> 00:28:48.009
in 1066, it doesn't necessarily mean that they

00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:52.190
were written at that exact moment. No. and they'll

00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:54.250
have been commissioned or certainly paid for

00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:57.549
by certain powers and people to have it in reference.

00:28:58.029 --> 00:28:59.990
I mean of course we've got to of course acknowledge

00:28:59.990 --> 00:29:01.650
that the Bayeux tapestry which will hopefully

00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:05.250
be coming to England's shores after so long over

00:29:05.250 --> 00:29:08.730
in Bayeux hopefully the British Museum next year

00:29:08.730 --> 00:29:13.750
or the year after I can't quite remember. I think

00:29:13.750 --> 00:29:16.210
there's some people in France that are very worried

00:29:16.210 --> 00:29:19.579
about the condition of it to travel. but some

00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:22.059
people in the closer circles have said, well,

00:29:22.299 --> 00:29:24.500
it can be done, doesn't mean it should not be

00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:27.319
done. But then if we've just seen, I know I've

00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:29.140
certainly been watching the Osberg ship move

00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:31.619
100 metres at a very, very, very small, slight

00:29:31.619 --> 00:29:34.599
pace in Norway. And if they can move a ship that

00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:37.640
old, we can move some fabric that old. So I'm

00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:39.740
sure it can be done. But there is, of course,

00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:44.059
that famous scene of William and Harold Godwinson

00:29:44.299 --> 00:29:47.440
doing the so -called promise or vow over some

00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:49.980
ancient relics about who to support for what

00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:58.839
throne? No. There is a scene of Harold swearing

00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:05.299
on relics, yes. But what he is swearing, that's

00:30:05.299 --> 00:30:09.440
not in the scene. It doesn't say Harold promises

00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:13.190
to give William the throne. No, it's just Harold

00:30:13.190 --> 00:30:16.450
making an oath There is the other possibility

00:30:16.450 --> 00:30:19.369
is a lot of people some of the Chronicles suggest

00:30:19.369 --> 00:30:22.109
I think it's Audrey Vitalis that Harold was promising

00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:27.049
to marry one of Williams daughters Interesting

00:30:27.049 --> 00:30:30.390
or that they were promising that they're both

00:30:30.390 --> 00:30:33.309
the soldiers and they were promising to mutually

00:30:33.309 --> 00:30:38.490
support each other in war But it doesn't mean

00:30:38.490 --> 00:30:41.549
it's been read to mean that he's promising the

00:30:41.549 --> 00:30:43.309
throne to William because William said Harold

00:30:43.309 --> 00:30:45.789
promised the throne to him in his chronicles,

00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:50.329
but it doesn't mean that he is. That's a very

00:30:50.329 --> 00:30:59.970
good point. Harold and the Godwins family, they

00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:05.109
were still on uncle terms with Edward at the

00:31:05.109 --> 00:31:08.660
time of that. Well, they were never, they were

00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:11.519
never really unalienable terms with Edward. They

00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.779
were a very powerful family, which is why Edward

00:31:14.779 --> 00:31:19.279
married Edith. It was, you know, I am the most

00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:21.500
powerful Earl in England. You marry my wife and

00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:25.759
we'll support you. Harold went to Normandy, I

00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:31.119
think it was 1064, somewhere around then. And

00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:39.829
he was, I mean, It is possible. He did make that

00:31:39.829 --> 00:31:44.470
oath. But at the same time, he was in William's

00:31:44.470 --> 00:31:48.650
custody, whether he had the power of life and

00:31:48.650 --> 00:31:51.269
death over him. And a lot of people would say,

00:31:51.609 --> 00:31:54.750
well, even if he did make the oath, it was under

00:31:54.750 --> 00:31:57.490
duress. Those made under duress are not valid.

00:31:58.490 --> 00:32:03.299
So what was Harold going to do? do whatever William

00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:05.460
wanted while he was in William's power as soon

00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:09.640
as he got back that oath is and Harold knew that

00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:13.599
it wasn't up to him or William who became king

00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.359
it was up to the Witton. You know Witton's made

00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:21.839
kings not previous kings they had to be yes a

00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.200
king could nominate who would succeed him but

00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.220
it had to be approved by the Witton and Harold

00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:30.180
would have known full well that the Witton would

00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:33.220
never approve. William of Normandy. Why on earth

00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:36.500
would they? He had no claim to the throne. He

00:32:36.500 --> 00:32:43.779
wasn't even English. He had no blood in England

00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:47.339
at all. Yes, his aunt was Queen of England, but

00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:53.220
that was his aunt, not him. So he had a very

00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:55.839
dubious claim to the throne and I think that's

00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:58.440
why you get all these things about the oaths

00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.700
and things. He's trying to throw every single

00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:05.160
possible claim to the throne there so that something

00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:12.190
will stick. Put her back to the initial focus

00:33:12.190 --> 00:33:14.650
of this episode, because we've talked obviously

00:33:14.650 --> 00:33:18.750
about Lady Emma and her, well Queen Emma, I like

00:33:18.750 --> 00:33:20.450
to call her Queen because she was Queen many

00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:24.750
times over and led the most remarkable life almost

00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:27.930
on par with the length and experience of our

00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:32.069
own much -missed recent Queen, Elizabeth II.

00:33:33.710 --> 00:33:37.819
Let's talk about Edith Goddard. Godwin's daughter

00:33:37.819 --> 00:33:41.099
I suppose, the Edith Harald sister who married

00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:43.819
Edward the confessor then. Is there much evidence

00:33:43.819 --> 00:33:47.240
of her role in the royal court influence or was

00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:50.279
she merely a pawn used by her father and brothers

00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:54.140
or not get their lineage onto the throne? She

00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:58.019
was a very traditional queen from what I can

00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:05.099
tell. Yes Godwin persuaded Edward to marry her

00:34:05.099 --> 00:34:09.090
because you know The house of Wessex was very

00:34:09.090 --> 00:34:13.250
powerful. Edward needed allies. And to be fair,

00:34:13.550 --> 00:34:16.630
he married her in, I think it was 1047. I haven't

00:34:16.630 --> 00:34:19.590
reread my book, so when I'm saying I think it

00:34:19.590 --> 00:34:24.389
was, I just know the roundabout dates. I can't

00:34:24.389 --> 00:34:27.510
correct you anyway, so it's all good. So Edward

00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:31.070
married her. They weren't already married when

00:34:31.070 --> 00:34:34.090
he was crowned as in King and Conqueror. He married

00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:39.170
her a few years later. And when Edward, when

00:34:39.170 --> 00:34:43.469
the Godwins were exiled in 1051, she was sent

00:34:43.469 --> 00:34:46.309
to a convent and Edward did look into divorcing

00:34:46.309 --> 00:34:50.329
her, but of course, he's very pious man and divorce

00:34:50.329 --> 00:34:52.710
wasn't a thing of the time anyway. So she was

00:34:52.710 --> 00:34:56.929
sent to a convent and she was only taken out

00:34:56.929 --> 00:34:59.849
of the convent when the Godwins forced their

00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:05.260
way back in. which was a very dramatic scene

00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:08.739
which I really do wish they'd actually put into

00:35:08.739 --> 00:35:14.039
the program because there was this massive meeting

00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:18.400
on the Thames in London with the Godwins on one

00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:21.800
bank and Edward the Confessor and the other Earl's

00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:26.019
on the other bank and Edward determined to go

00:35:26.019 --> 00:35:28.059
to war with the Godwins for forcing their way

00:35:28.059 --> 00:35:32.099
back into England and Earl Liefric of Mercia

00:35:33.429 --> 00:35:36.989
and Earl Seward of Northumbria saying, we are

00:35:36.989 --> 00:35:41.570
not going to war. Civil war is the worst. We

00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:43.469
are not doing it. So you're going to have to

00:35:43.469 --> 00:35:47.889
make a deal with Godwin because we won't support

00:35:47.889 --> 00:35:51.929
you in a war. And that would have been ships.

00:35:52.539 --> 00:35:54.559
Godwin's ships on one side, Edward's ships on

00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:57.440
the other, Godwin and Edward facing off against

00:35:57.440 --> 00:35:58.880
each other. It would have been a great scene,

00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.159
but they didn't use it. Same with the riding

00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:05.599
to Emma to take the treasury back. That would

00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.820
have been a brilliant scene, but they just didn't

00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:12.360
use it. And that's what gets me. The drama of

00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:16.320
1066 is so dramatic. It's like, why on earth

00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.179
change that? But anyway, so yes, so the Godwins

00:36:20.179 --> 00:36:23.639
forced their way back in. Edith was restored

00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:30.920
and stayed queen for the rest of her life. She

00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.139
was the one who commissioned the book on Edward

00:36:33.139 --> 00:36:39.780
the Confessor. And in that book, she was basically

00:36:39.780 --> 00:36:42.880
commissioned to try and get Edward made a saint.

00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:48.460
It did help. He is a saint now. So it worked

00:36:48.460 --> 00:36:50.760
to some extent. And the whole idea in it, she

00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:55.940
explains that some pages are missing, and they're

00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:59.280
the ones about their relationship in the bedroom.

00:36:59.739 --> 00:37:01.800
So we don't actually know what their relationship

00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:04.440
in the bedroom was, except it suggested that

00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:08.500
he was so pious that he was chased, that he remained,

00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:15.230
that he took a vow of chastity. Whether or not

00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:17.429
they did, I don't know. I think it's probably

00:37:17.429 --> 00:37:20.590
a way to explain that they didn't have children

00:37:20.590 --> 00:37:26.590
without saying that one of them was at fault.

00:37:27.349 --> 00:37:29.449
Because the woman always gets blamed for not

00:37:29.449 --> 00:37:34.610
being able to have children. Well, they could

00:37:34.610 --> 00:37:36.710
have been disparages that were just never acknowledged.

00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:42.329
Yeah, exactly. But she took the way that they

00:37:42.329 --> 00:37:48.829
didn't have children. add to his sanctity. But

00:37:48.829 --> 00:37:53.710
we don't know what the relationship was in the

00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:58.530
bedchamber. But she was very loyal in the end

00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:01.710
to Edward the Confessor. Her favourite brother

00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:06.230
was Tostig, not Harold. In the programme, she

00:38:06.230 --> 00:38:09.789
is very loyal to Harold until the very last minute.

00:38:11.150 --> 00:38:15.960
But in reality, When Tostig gets made Earl of

00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:18.840
Northumbria, it's because she's persuaded the

00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:23.739
King to do it, not Harold. And he is her favourite

00:38:23.739 --> 00:38:27.019
brother. And when Tostig is removed as Earl of

00:38:27.019 --> 00:38:29.760
Northumbria, which is because of Harold, Harold

00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:32.639
actually forces the King to remove him and replace

00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:35.780
him with Morkar of Mercia, because Tostig makes

00:38:35.780 --> 00:38:40.280
a right hash of rule in Northumbria. And the

00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:43.530
Northumbrians rebel against him. And instead

00:38:43.530 --> 00:38:45.409
of supporting him, Harold turns around and says,

00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:47.630
you know what, you've got to get Tostig out of

00:38:47.630 --> 00:38:50.809
this. He's not up to the job. So Tostig gets

00:38:50.809 --> 00:38:55.789
sent into exile, and Moorcar becomes Earl of

00:38:55.789 --> 00:39:00.489
Northumbria. And Edith does not like Harold for

00:39:00.489 --> 00:39:03.090
this. And after the actual, after the Norman

00:39:03.090 --> 00:39:08.619
conquest, after the Battle of Hastings, William

00:39:08.619 --> 00:39:11.659
first goes to Winchester. He tries to go to London

00:39:11.659 --> 00:39:15.179
and is barred against him. So he carries on down

00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:17.900
the south coast to take Winchester, which is

00:39:17.900 --> 00:39:21.719
the second city in this time. And Edith actually

00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:26.739
opens the gates to him. She welcomes him. And

00:39:26.739 --> 00:39:31.280
through that, on 1068, when he's at the siege

00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:36.840
of Winchester, Edith is supporting William. nor

00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:45.679
the Saxon rebels. So she's just as interesting

00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.920
a character as Emma because she is politically

00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:52.239
astute and she knows which way the wind's blowing

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.860
and she can see what's going to happen, I think.

00:39:55.940 --> 00:39:59.440
So she picks the side. she opens the gates of

00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.400
Winchester to keep her people safe. This is where

00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.059
she lives, this is where she has lands and rather

00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:08.679
than allow William to devastate them, she opens

00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:14.559
the gates and lets him in. But a bit of it is

00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:20.860
she hated Harold. I'd like to imagine now kind

00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:25.360
of like what Edith would have made of Emma, Emma

00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:29.639
made of Edith, because assumably because I know

00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:31.719
obviously Emma was asked not to attend court

00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:36.559
but maybe they had something to find out. Edward

00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:39.500
did mellow towards the end of Emma's life so

00:40:39.500 --> 00:40:42.159
I think she probably did attend the main courts

00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:47.699
like Easter and Christmas and Edward was at Winchester

00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:57.679
when Godwin died in about 1051. no 1053 I think

00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:01.239
it was but Emma I think was dead by that point

00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:05.539
so he did attend you know Winchester was the

00:41:05.539 --> 00:41:07.940
second city and had the great Winchester Cathedral

00:41:07.940 --> 00:41:13.460
and the Minster and a lot of royal lands so he

00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:18.179
would have visited Emma I think in the last years

00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:22.400
of her life he did mellow towards her once he

00:41:24.240 --> 00:41:28.420
reduced her power, basically. So I think, yes,

00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:30.840
Emma and Edith would have met on the grand occasions,

00:41:31.260 --> 00:41:35.400
the crown wearings at Christmas and Easter. So

00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.739
yeah, and I think she probably took a page out

00:41:38.739 --> 00:41:44.940
of Emma's book a few times. She certainly, she

00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:49.710
was very big on education, Edith. patronised

00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:53.210
a lot of monasteries and convents. And when Edward

00:41:53.210 --> 00:41:56.090
the Exile brought his family back from Hungary,

00:41:57.030 --> 00:42:00.090
she was the one who took custody of Edgar the

00:42:00.090 --> 00:42:02.849
Astling and sought his education, and most of

00:42:02.849 --> 00:42:06.050
the young men at court, actually. And she also

00:42:06.050 --> 00:42:10.130
took custody of Edward's daughters, Christina

00:42:10.130 --> 00:42:13.489
and Margaret, and they were placed in the convent

00:42:13.489 --> 00:42:18.559
at Wilton, I think it was. to have an education.

00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:22.760
Wilton was the convent that most noble girls

00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:27.940
were sent to for their education. So Edith was

00:42:27.940 --> 00:42:31.619
very big on that. Because I guess that's where

00:42:31.619 --> 00:42:34.880
a lot of the sources that show evidence of these

00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.079
women moving in these circles is kind of like

00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.519
in clerical documents and rits and as witnesses

00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:42.880
to these great things. Of course, I remember

00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.500
reading when I was reading Queen Emma and the

00:42:45.500 --> 00:42:48.099
Vikings by Harriet O 'Brien there's that beautiful

00:42:48.099 --> 00:42:52.880
book and then what church it is now but it's

00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:55.840
got an illustration of King Canoe and Queen Emma

00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:58.400
on the front kind of like their hands going towards

00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:00.360
the cross and it's to do with kind of like people

00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.519
getting their names in if they've done good enough

00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:05.159
to go to heaven I think yeah I'm not sure but

00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.719
I thought that that's that again like there's

00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:11.170
no other illustrations of many queens Really,

00:43:11.210 --> 00:43:15.949
I don't think. No, Edith is on the Bay of Tapestry.

00:43:16.190 --> 00:43:18.449
There are three women on the Bay of Tapestry.

00:43:19.570 --> 00:43:24.909
Edith is one of them. She's at Edward the Confessor's

00:43:24.909 --> 00:43:30.110
deathbed. Another woman is fleeing a burning

00:43:30.110 --> 00:43:34.730
building with a little boy in hand. That's thought

00:43:34.730 --> 00:43:39.230
to be Harold's wife, Edith Swanneck, with her

00:43:39.230 --> 00:43:43.230
youngest son. is possible. And the third one

00:43:43.230 --> 00:43:47.670
is, of course, a scene that gets an entire chapter

00:43:47.670 --> 00:43:50.789
in my book, Silk and the Sword, which is Elfgiver.

00:43:52.050 --> 00:43:54.849
And as you may remember when we started talking

00:43:54.849 --> 00:43:58.090
about Emma, that her name was changed to Elfgiver.

00:44:00.010 --> 00:44:03.630
The wording above the picture is Elfgiver and

00:44:03.630 --> 00:44:07.570
a certain cleric. And it's this woman with a

00:44:07.570 --> 00:44:10.619
priest. having his hand to her cheek. Now, whether

00:44:10.619 --> 00:44:12.940
he's caressing her cheek or slapping her cheek

00:44:12.940 --> 00:44:16.340
is open to interpretation. And who this elf giver

00:44:16.340 --> 00:44:19.239
is, because there were elf givers everywhere,

00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.940
we don't know. It's possible it's Emma. It's

00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:25.500
possible it's Canute's first wife. There are

00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:28.380
so many possibilities. I wrote a whole chapter

00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:32.340
on it. I've done a discussion on it for Historical

00:44:32.340 --> 00:44:36.760
Writers Forum with Pat Bracewell, Carol McGrath.

00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:42.820
uh myself and uh Pauline Paula Lofton and we

00:44:42.820 --> 00:44:46.659
cannot decide nobody you know after a thousand

00:44:46.659 --> 00:44:48.940
years there was so many articles on this elf

00:44:48.940 --> 00:44:51.719
giver and who she is it's brilliant but nobody

00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:54.239
knows because it just says elf giver and a certain

00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.179
cleric and it's like oh god they don't even finish

00:44:58.179 --> 00:44:59.820
the sentence it doesn't say what they're doing

00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:06.190
or why they're together um so but it is Yeah,

00:45:06.809 --> 00:45:11.429
that's the there's something like There's more

00:45:11.429 --> 00:45:14.349
animals. There's more strange animals on the

00:45:14.349 --> 00:45:19.269
bio tapestry than there are women There's three

00:45:19.269 --> 00:45:22.829
women in the whole thing So which is why you've

00:45:22.829 --> 00:45:25.050
probably been mistaken for thinking women weren't

00:45:25.050 --> 00:45:27.789
involved But when you look into them, you see

00:45:27.789 --> 00:45:33.019
how intricately they were involved in the Norman

00:45:33.019 --> 00:45:35.440
Conquest. And I do like to think that the writers

00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:37.780
of King and Conqueror actually read my book and

00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:39.179
thought, you know what, we need to put these

00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:43.019
women in here because they did. I don't like

00:45:43.019 --> 00:45:46.000
the way they portrayed the women, but I do like

00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.280
the fact that they included so many of them.

00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:53.940
Yes. And made them an integral part of the story.

00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:59.239
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I guess we're going

00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.400
from one Edith to the next. Coming up was quite

00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.980
aptly kind of like Edith Swannock, who is, according

00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:07.500
to your book, married to Harold Godwin for a

00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:11.460
good 20 years before he then married Edith of

00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:17.739
Mercia, not Margaret of Mercia. Just to confuse

00:46:17.739 --> 00:46:21.320
things. I didn't realise after kind of like sampling

00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:23.119
your book in various ways that she was also quite

00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.360
a wealthy woman. Now, women and wealth are not

00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:28.659
that common, I don't think, or at least they're

00:46:28.659 --> 00:46:33.579
not recorded. being very common. So can you tell

00:46:33.579 --> 00:46:37.079
me a bit more about how Eith came into such a

00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:40.579
wealth and how she got to meet Harold? She was

00:46:40.579 --> 00:46:43.119
a wealthy woman in her own right, like you say,

00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:47.280
which is unusual for the time, except I'm not

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:51.420
sure it is that unusual because Godiva was also

00:46:51.420 --> 00:46:53.699
a wealthy woman in her own right. I think it's

00:46:53.699 --> 00:47:00.710
just not remarked rather than unusual. And it's

00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:05.150
thought that she had lands adjacent before, when

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:07.590
Earl Godwin was still alive, Harold was made

00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:11.329
Earl of East Anglia. These earldoms weren't,

00:47:12.010 --> 00:47:14.909
you did have a sense of primogeniture, but at

00:47:14.909 --> 00:47:18.030
the same time, where father, son succeeds father,

00:47:18.090 --> 00:47:22.030
but at the same time, the earldoms were quite

00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:25.230
transitory in that there were these great earldoms

00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:28.869
of Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria. but underneath

00:47:28.869 --> 00:47:31.389
there, there were these other earldoms like East

00:47:31.389 --> 00:47:36.690
Anglia, Hereford, there seemed to be junior earldoms

00:47:36.690 --> 00:47:40.210
and Edward would hand them out to whoever he

00:47:40.210 --> 00:47:45.389
thought deserved one and before, well his father

00:47:45.389 --> 00:47:47.969
was still Earl of Essex, Harold was made Earl

00:47:47.969 --> 00:47:54.280
of East Anglia and he was given land in East

00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:58.280
Anglia in Essex and his lands bordered on those

00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:02.000
of Edith Swanneck and that's probably how they

00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.820
met. And yes he was her wife, he was her husband,

00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:10.480
they were married. The theory is they were married

00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:14.039
in the way more Danico in the Danish way, a hand

00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:18.219
fasting rather than a church wedding which allowed

00:48:18.219 --> 00:48:22.019
Harold the chance to be able to disavow the marriage

00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:26.900
if a better prospect came along. But it gave

00:48:26.900 --> 00:48:30.239
Edith guarantees that her children were legitimate.

00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:34.800
They were never considered illegitimate by the

00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:39.920
law, even though they were by the church. And

00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.500
I suppose it's because of this you have this

00:48:42.500 --> 00:48:46.199
idea that In the 11th century the Vikings were

00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:50.219
still pagans and the English were Christians

00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:54.320
and they had basically a pagan marriage. But

00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.739
Harold was a Christian and so was Edith and so

00:48:56.739 --> 00:49:00.019
was Canute before him. The Vikings had been Christians

00:49:00.019 --> 00:49:07.360
for a hundred years. So the idea of having a

00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.329
wife, a handfast wife and a Christian wife was

00:49:11.329 --> 00:49:15.989
not new. Canute had done it beforehand with his

00:49:15.989 --> 00:49:21.349
wife, his first wife Elkefer and his son Harold

00:49:21.349 --> 00:49:25.309
Hereford was a product of that relationship and

00:49:25.309 --> 00:49:27.929
he was legally entitled, you know, he actually

00:49:27.929 --> 00:49:30.730
ascended to the throne with no question about

00:49:30.730 --> 00:49:33.469
his legitimacy. Even though, I mean, the Anglo

00:49:33.469 --> 00:49:37.230
-Saxon Chronicle goes right over the top with

00:49:37.230 --> 00:49:43.039
its gossip and suggest that Canute's two sons

00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:46.480
by Elfgiver were actually changelings and had

00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.980
been either inserted into the nursery to replace

00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:52.940
dead children or were the product of Elfgiver's

00:49:52.940 --> 00:50:01.840
relationship with some priest. I'm not sure Canute

00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:05.980
would have taken from... taken that lying down

00:50:05.980 --> 00:50:08.639
to be honest although I mean Cnut was a must

00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:11.420
have he was about 18 or 19 when he married Emma

00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:15.000
so he must have only been a very young teenager

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.360
when he met Elfgiver. They did marry young because

00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:23.079
of course in your book you explain how Emma was

00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:27.320
only 15ish and he married Ethel Reddy and Reddy

00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:30.440
who was at least 30. Yes but there is that huge

00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:32.360
age difference and it kind of like it's a practice

00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:35.570
that I know certainly carries on when King Henry

00:50:35.570 --> 00:50:38.309
VIII was looking for however many wives. Some

00:50:38.309 --> 00:50:40.769
of the candidates he considered were extremely

00:50:40.769 --> 00:50:45.349
young when he was so old. But yeah, that's a

00:50:45.349 --> 00:50:49.090
whole other topic. I did read a theory about

00:50:49.090 --> 00:50:51.809
that recently, actually, which is that it was

00:50:51.809 --> 00:50:55.730
when I was reading upon Richard II. And his second

00:50:55.730 --> 00:50:59.989
wife was about six when he married her. And the

00:50:59.989 --> 00:51:02.110
theory is that they married them that young.

00:51:02.190 --> 00:51:05.070
They're not going to. treat them as a wife at

00:51:05.070 --> 00:51:09.010
that age. No, yeah. They know they're a virgin.

00:51:10.389 --> 00:51:13.349
Ah, that's a good point. And from that moment

00:51:13.349 --> 00:51:15.769
on when your wife's six years old and then being

00:51:15.769 --> 00:51:17.889
watched by you for the rest of the, you know,

00:51:17.889 --> 00:51:19.289
they're going to stay a virgin until they're

00:51:19.289 --> 00:51:22.210
ready for you. Which apparently was a really

00:51:22.210 --> 00:51:26.829
big deal for men in those days. And also you

00:51:26.829 --> 00:51:30.510
can train her literally to be the wife you want

00:51:30.510 --> 00:51:36.329
her to be. Oh yes. So having a young wife was

00:51:36.329 --> 00:51:38.210
seen as an advantage in that you could train

00:51:38.210 --> 00:51:41.289
her to be that wife whereas if you married someone

00:51:41.289 --> 00:51:44.050
who'd already been married or was a little bit

00:51:44.050 --> 00:51:47.750
older they might actually have opinions of their

00:51:47.750 --> 00:51:51.829
own rather than yours. Yeah I mean certainly

00:51:51.829 --> 00:51:55.070
kind of going slightly off track just because

00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:57.909
I'm a consumer of the popular culture of history

00:51:58.799 --> 00:52:01.940
Thinking back to the Tudors BBC series, which

00:52:01.940 --> 00:52:04.019
I think was excellently done all the way through,

00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:06.000
even though I know nothing about the era, but

00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.460
I lived for the drama of it all, and I thought

00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:10.760
Jonathan Rees -Miles is brilliant. I vividly

00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:12.599
remember a scene where I'm sure he's holding

00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.980
court with Louis in France, and they both have

00:52:15.980 --> 00:52:18.360
a big celebration to set the engagement of one

00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:20.760
son to one's daughter, and yet they're both little

00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:24.139
kids, but they were married, or set to be married,

00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:26.769
and I thought... Yeah they do very much kind

00:52:26.769 --> 00:52:28.929
of like don't just look for like young women

00:52:28.929 --> 00:52:31.670
but they set kind of the marriage as their whole

00:52:31.670 --> 00:52:33.730
goal and purpose in life is like you are born

00:52:33.730 --> 00:52:36.010
you will be married to someone I choose kind

00:52:36.010 --> 00:52:42.409
of thing. So yeah it was it's certainly an interesting

00:52:42.409 --> 00:52:47.269
angle and of course as we see kind of like both

00:52:47.269 --> 00:53:11.349
with Edith of Mercia having a bit of a spat of

00:53:11.349 --> 00:53:16.300
power with the Lady either says kind of like

00:53:16.300 --> 00:53:18.940
I am queen, I want to know what Emma is doing

00:53:18.940 --> 00:53:22.239
with my money, Mr Secretary, you cannot just

00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.199
give money to my mother -in -law whenever she

00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:27.039
asks. And of course there is that one bit in

00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:31.000
the series where three of the women, I'm not

00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.500
going to say names because it's quite near the

00:53:32.500 --> 00:53:35.400
end, where they do confront one of the lords,

00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.329
or the earls I should say, of England. and quite

00:53:39.329 --> 00:53:41.630
right put him in his place physically as well

00:53:41.630 --> 00:53:43.809
as verbally and one of them says no you will

00:53:43.809 --> 00:53:47.789
refer to me as queen and i'm like yes okay that's

00:53:47.789 --> 00:53:49.849
all for the power figure of the 21st century

00:53:49.849 --> 00:53:51.929
that probably would not have happened in the

00:53:51.929 --> 00:53:55.389
10th 11th century at all um but yes it's just

00:53:55.389 --> 00:53:59.250
kind of trying to match different roles with

00:53:59.250 --> 00:54:02.210
the motives of women we have today and that we

00:54:02.210 --> 00:54:04.869
are trying to always address the equality and

00:54:04.869 --> 00:54:07.489
imbalance. Yeah the other thing we're looking

00:54:07.489 --> 00:54:11.690
King and Conqueror with Edith Swan there because

00:54:11.690 --> 00:54:15.929
you see in the first episode the giving birth

00:54:15.929 --> 00:54:20.150
and children and in 1043 because that's the time

00:54:20.150 --> 00:54:23.989
when Edward the confessor is crowned so we know

00:54:23.989 --> 00:54:28.099
you know she's just having these children. Sorry

00:54:28.099 --> 00:54:30.500
for those who haven't watched the last four episodes

00:54:30.500 --> 00:54:32.940
yet, but then the last episode, as we know, is

00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:37.199
in 1066. These children are still on the toddlers

00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:43.679
20 years later. Very good point. Never actually

00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:46.820
got onto that. I think I was just trying to forgive

00:54:46.820 --> 00:54:48.500
them for anything and everything that I was watching

00:54:48.500 --> 00:54:51.070
now because I thought I just can't. I stopped

00:54:51.070 --> 00:54:54.349
taking notes after episode two. I'm writing too

00:54:54.349 --> 00:54:57.210
many questions to ask people I know who know

00:54:57.210 --> 00:55:02.309
and then who wrote this. The children don't grow

00:55:02.309 --> 00:55:09.110
up. And it's like Robert of Normandy, William's

00:55:09.110 --> 00:55:12.849
son and heir, who's left with Matilda in 1066

00:55:12.849 --> 00:55:15.170
while he invades England. He's still only three

00:55:15.170 --> 00:55:17.750
years old, whereas he was about 12 or 14 at the

00:55:17.750 --> 00:55:22.719
time. things like that it's just like you know

00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:24.820
you've moved them on 20 odd years but you didn't

00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:30.320
grow them up yeah and i'm not gonna detour down

00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:33.900
the power struggle that william had with someone

00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:36.519
else of royal lineage that side of the continent

00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:38.960
because that's one thing the series definitely

00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:41.619
did do is they tried to almost give both harold

00:55:41.619 --> 00:55:45.250
and william powerful figures, powerful challenges

00:55:45.250 --> 00:55:48.050
that they had to overcome. Harold had a baby

00:55:48.050 --> 00:55:50.349
Emma, William had someone that I'm not going

00:55:50.349 --> 00:55:52.630
to name because of spoilers for those who haven't

00:55:52.630 --> 00:55:57.070
caught up yet. But yeah, they both, both of them

00:55:57.070 --> 00:56:00.969
ended in ways that didn't actually happen at

00:56:00.969 --> 00:56:05.929
all. So we know Edith's one neck was, obviously

00:56:05.929 --> 00:56:08.349
she had lambs. Was it lambs that she inherited

00:56:08.349 --> 00:56:10.610
or because she didn't come into them through

00:56:10.610 --> 00:56:14.219
another marriage? at all? No, I think they were

00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:18.300
lands that she inherited. We don't know an awful

00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:21.099
lot of her origins, unfortunately, so we can't

00:56:21.099 --> 00:56:24.639
know an awful lot about her, and it's difficult

00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:28.420
to... Anne Williams has done a lot of work on

00:56:28.420 --> 00:56:31.539
Edith, and I think she's identified her properly

00:56:31.539 --> 00:56:37.099
in the Doomsday book, so that we know which lands

00:56:37.099 --> 00:56:40.800
were hers. but we don't know where she got them

00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:43.940
from. I think she was probably a sole heiress,

00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:48.059
seems most likely. Yeah, she and Harold were

00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:52.340
together for about 20 years and even after Edith,

00:56:52.500 --> 00:56:59.980
Harold married Edith of Mercia, we don't know

00:56:59.980 --> 00:57:03.840
where she was in the time between Harold, Mary

00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:08.579
and Edith. the Battle of Hastings, but there

00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:14.260
is the story of her waiting with Githa, Harald's

00:57:14.260 --> 00:57:17.360
mother, whilst the battle is being fought, and

00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.500
then her and Githa looking through the bodies

00:57:20.500 --> 00:57:24.559
on the battlefield to find Githa's sons. And

00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:29.519
I say sons because they wrote out Leofwyn and

00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:32.519
Girth, who were Harald's other two brothers.

00:57:32.909 --> 00:57:36.030
and who was still with Harold at Hastings and

00:57:36.030 --> 00:57:38.329
fought with them. In fact, Girth was the one

00:57:38.329 --> 00:57:41.349
who tried to persuade Harold not to fight when

00:57:41.349 --> 00:57:44.210
they had the family meeting in London before

00:57:44.210 --> 00:57:49.250
the battle. Girth actually said, let me go because

00:57:49.250 --> 00:57:52.469
we don't want to lose, if we lose this battle,

00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:55.489
we'd lose the king. If I go and we lose this

00:57:55.489 --> 00:57:57.750
battle, then you can still carry on fighting

00:57:57.750 --> 00:58:02.940
once the rest of the levies arrive. but insisted

00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:05.260
on he being the one to lead and his brothers

00:58:05.260 --> 00:58:08.760
both fought the battle and it's one of his it

00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:14.780
was one of the arms um one of the um his brother's

00:58:14.780 --> 00:58:17.139
force one of his brother's forces who actually

00:58:17.139 --> 00:58:21.480
did the chasing after the Normans when they pretended

00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.480
to flee that actually caused the end of the battle

00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:29.699
so yeah um Edith was then on the battlefield

00:58:29.699 --> 00:58:33.900
Harold had been literally, I mean some accounts

00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:39.780
suggest he was hacked to pieces and Edith walked

00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:43.380
around the battlefield trying to find him and

00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:48.199
she identified him by marks that only a woman

00:58:48.199 --> 00:58:50.900
who was intimate with Harold would know, which

00:58:50.900 --> 00:58:54.039
is either tattoos or old scars or something like

00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:57.909
that. But certainly not just looking at his face

00:58:57.909 --> 00:59:00.030
and going, yes, that's Harold, because anybody

00:59:00.030 --> 00:59:05.730
could have done that. But I feel for Githa, because

00:59:05.730 --> 00:59:10.670
she was the most interesting person I wrote about,

00:59:10.750 --> 00:59:16.269
Githa of Wessex. Because I thought that the book

00:59:16.269 --> 00:59:18.969
would be Emma of Normandy and then a few other

00:59:18.969 --> 00:59:22.530
women. And I thought that. But Githa took over

00:59:22.530 --> 00:59:28.929
the book. She is the longest chapter. And she's

00:59:28.929 --> 00:59:36.530
just such a fascinating character. She's related

00:59:36.530 --> 00:59:41.269
to Cnut in that her brother is married to Cnut's

00:59:41.269 --> 00:59:46.469
sister. Interesting. I did not know that. So

00:59:46.469 --> 00:59:50.409
she is semi -royal, say, which means she was

00:59:50.409 --> 00:59:54.719
a really prize for Godwin and it was Canute who

00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:57.420
arranged a marriage based on Godwin services

00:59:57.420 --> 01:00:03.340
in Denmark. She was a really strong, intelligent

01:00:03.340 --> 01:00:12.619
woman, raised six sons and three daughters. She

01:00:12.619 --> 01:00:16.000
was a contemporary of Emma, probably about 10

01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:20.780
years younger than Emma of Normandy. and about

01:00:20.780 --> 01:00:25.219
the same age as Lady Godiva. And she was just

01:00:25.219 --> 01:00:29.059
such a strong woman with all this history. And

01:00:29.059 --> 01:00:31.480
oh, so many parts of her story that could have

01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:35.219
been in the program. I think the one that they

01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:40.280
missed the opportunity of was her fickle oldest

01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:44.400
son, Swain. who looked about the same age as

01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:47.940
his dad in the programme, he actually claimed

01:00:47.940 --> 01:00:51.219
that he wasn't the son of Godwin but he was the

01:00:51.219 --> 01:00:54.460
son of Cnut. He claimed his mum had an affair

01:00:54.460 --> 01:00:56.960
with Cnut and that he was the son of Cnut and

01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:00.219
therefore rightful heir to England rather than

01:01:00.219 --> 01:01:04.559
the son of Godwin. And he was saying this about

01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:09.940
his mother. I mean talk about a little, you know.

01:01:10.940 --> 01:01:14.360
Well, Gither, rather than just ignoring it or

01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:16.960
laying down and saying, she actually got, I think

01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:19.559
it was, I can't remember whether it was 12 or

01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:25.360
20 women of good reputation to swear oaths that

01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:28.980
Gither was a woman of good reputation and just

01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:32.280
couldn't have done it. But it's the fact that

01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:37.119
this is what Swain does, you know. I think they

01:01:37.119 --> 01:01:39.960
have him, in the first programme they have him

01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:44.400
claiming the right to bed the bride. Oh yes,

01:01:44.679 --> 01:01:50.179
that really wrangled me. I thought no. What he

01:01:50.179 --> 01:01:53.800
actually did was much worse. He kidnapped a nun,

01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:57.659
raped her and only returned her to the monastery

01:01:57.659 --> 01:01:59.780
after the church had told him that he wasn't

01:01:59.780 --> 01:02:05.840
allowed to marry her. And his son, he also had

01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:10.300
a son and it is probably Hakon, and it is probably

01:02:10.949 --> 01:02:15.690
the son of the nun that he'd raped. And she was

01:02:15.690 --> 01:02:17.489
only returned to the monastery after she'd given

01:02:17.489 --> 01:02:23.230
birth. So Swain, oh, and he murdered his cousin.

01:02:25.849 --> 01:02:28.250
You know, they could have made Swain so much

01:02:28.250 --> 01:02:32.650
worse than they actually made him. Yeah, you

01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:35.030
know, real life was actually more interesting,

01:02:35.489 --> 01:02:38.570
worse. So they really could have done a number.

01:02:39.340 --> 01:02:41.579
But it wouldn't have been doing a number on him

01:02:41.579 --> 01:02:46.440
because he really was that big again. He was.

01:02:46.539 --> 01:02:49.880
He was definitely not a likable character at

01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:54.039
all. I kept trying to feel sympathy for him,

01:02:54.099 --> 01:02:57.000
but then I couldn't. But no, Harold didn't send

01:02:57.000 --> 01:02:59.719
an assassin after him. He went on pilgrimage

01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:03.960
to Jerusalem in 1051, after the family were exiled

01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:08.019
to Flanders. He left on pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

01:03:08.730 --> 01:03:12.809
and barefoot all the way to Jerusalem, actually

01:03:12.809 --> 01:03:20.849
made it and died on his way back. So you just

01:03:20.849 --> 01:03:23.789
feel forgiven because this woman, her oldest

01:03:23.789 --> 01:03:27.900
son is claiming that she had an affair. but she

01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:31.739
stands strong and defends herself. And throughout

01:03:31.739 --> 01:03:34.739
Harold's life, you see Githa is there at the

01:03:34.739 --> 01:03:38.480
main points, you know, when he's king, when he's

01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:42.440
about to march down from London to Hastings,

01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:48.400
she's at the council meeting, so decides what

01:03:48.400 --> 01:03:50.840
the course of action is in London once he's got

01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:53.780
back from Stamford Bridge. And that's when she's

01:03:53.780 --> 01:03:56.840
just found out that her son's, her others, son

01:03:56.840 --> 01:03:59.800
Tostig is you know at the same meeting she'll

01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:02.840
have found out that her son Tostig was dead and

01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:05.199
she was going she was watching her three surviving

01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:09.559
sons march off to war again and by the end of

01:04:09.559 --> 01:04:15.599
October 14 1066 she had lost all her sons are

01:04:15.599 --> 01:04:19.449
one they're of course one still living but he

01:04:19.449 --> 01:04:22.210
was in Normandy and he had been in Normandy since

01:04:22.210 --> 01:04:26.469
1052 when he was kidnapped by the Archbishop

01:04:26.469 --> 01:04:30.489
of Canterbury along with her grandson Hakon and

01:04:30.489 --> 01:04:33.570
held as hostage. They were taken to Normandy

01:04:33.570 --> 01:04:36.809
and held as hostages which is possibly one of

01:04:36.809 --> 01:04:39.690
the reasons Harold was in Normandy in 1064 to

01:04:39.690 --> 01:04:43.280
try and get them back. I did wonder, I did wonder

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:45.340
what was the reason for Harold being in Normandy,

01:04:45.579 --> 01:04:48.139
if it wasn't because I, William, my king once

01:04:48.139 --> 01:04:50.519
used to be the next king. He just arrives there,

01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:53.480
doesn't he? And it's like, no, it's most likely

01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:56.099
that he was there to negotiate the release of

01:04:56.099 --> 01:05:00.960
his brother and nephew. I did find it fascinating,

01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:04.260
although I think I got myself confused trying

01:05:04.260 --> 01:05:05.800
to remember the correct history when watching

01:05:05.800 --> 01:05:07.760
the series, especially when the Godwins were

01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:15.730
exiled to Flanders, because Geetha, Godwin, Leif,

01:05:16.110 --> 01:05:18.750
the one beginning with L, and the Tostig, they

01:05:18.750 --> 01:05:23.269
went to Flanders, but Godwin and one other brother

01:05:23.269 --> 01:05:26.909
went, they went to Ireland. Harold went to Ireland,

01:05:27.909 --> 01:05:32.949
yeah. I can't remember which other brother, but

01:05:32.949 --> 01:05:35.510
yeah, Harold went to Ireland, Godwin and Geetha

01:05:35.510 --> 01:05:38.670
went to Flanders, but they were going to Ireland

01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:41.880
to get support. think Harold must have had land

01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:46.280
in Ireland, because after 1066, that's where

01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:51.320
Harold's sons go. They go to Ireland. But then

01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:57.519
Ireland in those days had a lot of Viking families,

01:05:58.460 --> 01:06:03.219
especially around Dublin. And Harold Gither was

01:06:03.219 --> 01:06:08.059
Danish. So it's probably that they had family

01:06:08.059 --> 01:06:10.829
there and they certainly went there to burn support

01:06:10.829 --> 01:06:14.010
and then Harold the Coss takes to piracy across

01:06:14.010 --> 01:06:16.710
the south coast while he's waiting to force his

01:06:16.710 --> 01:06:23.230
way back into England. So yeah. That was at least

01:06:23.230 --> 01:06:26.010
certainly hinted at when Cedar Swannock was trying

01:06:26.010 --> 01:06:29.550
to ask, sorry spoilers, she was trying to find

01:06:29.550 --> 01:06:32.880
a way out before the imminent ending as you all

01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:35.420
should know how it ends. And then kind of like

01:06:35.420 --> 01:06:37.900
Easy did mention about Ireland. I thought oh

01:06:37.900 --> 01:06:39.579
that's interesting, I never thought kind of like

01:06:39.579 --> 01:06:42.039
how far the Godwins and power line might have

01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:44.380
stretched. But certainly when they got exiled

01:06:44.380 --> 01:06:46.780
to Flanders initially I thought hang on, didn't

01:06:46.780 --> 01:06:49.320
Godwins farther get exiled initially by another

01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:52.440
king? I'm sure kind of like Wolfenoth got banished

01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:54.840
and went off with a fleet and then he came back

01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:58.539
again and I couldn't remember how. Yeah he stole

01:06:58.539 --> 01:07:05.619
Ethelred's fleet. Yeah. Exiles were never really

01:07:05.619 --> 01:07:08.139
for life. They were, you know, they were until

01:07:08.139 --> 01:07:10.360
the king calmed down and then you've tried it.

01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:13.679
You persuaded him to let you come back and promise

01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:17.239
that you wouldn't misbehave again. And that's

01:07:17.239 --> 01:07:20.219
what Swain had done after he killed his cousin.

01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:26.300
And, you know, he was. Yeah, they were all for

01:07:26.300 --> 01:07:35.000
redemption. So we've talked about Queen Emma,

01:07:35.440 --> 01:07:47.159
Edith of Wessex, but of course Harold did then

01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:53.960
marry the Edith that came from Mercia. This is

01:07:53.960 --> 01:07:56.960
why it's confusing for everyone. Which is why

01:07:56.960 --> 01:08:00.849
they changed their names in the programme. Edith

01:08:00.849 --> 01:08:03.889
of Mercia in the programme is Margaret, which

01:08:03.889 --> 01:08:07.670
is like seriously. There was Saint Margaret to

01:08:07.670 --> 01:08:11.050
be fair, but she'd grown up in Hungary, so you

01:08:11.050 --> 01:08:13.590
can understand where that name came from. You

01:08:13.590 --> 01:08:16.569
don't really see it in Anglo -Saxon England as

01:08:16.569 --> 01:08:19.250
a name, Margaret. It's definitely a continental

01:08:19.250 --> 01:08:23.729
name. So they gave her Margaret instead of something

01:08:23.729 --> 01:08:26.149
that would have sounded Mercian -like. I don't

01:08:26.149 --> 01:08:28.029
know why they didn't call her Godiva, to be honest.

01:08:30.679 --> 01:08:35.479
feasible. So she was the sister of Edwin and

01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:39.600
Morkar. In the program there's just Morkar. In

01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:42.340
actual life there were two of them. Edwin was

01:08:42.340 --> 01:08:48.180
Earl of Mercia and his brother Morkar was made

01:08:48.180 --> 01:08:50.880
Earl of Northumbria after Tostig was kicked out.

01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:55.680
And their sister Idgith had been the wife of

01:08:55.680 --> 01:09:01.029
Griffith King of Wales. Yes, there was once a

01:09:01.029 --> 01:09:07.050
King of Wales and he had been to war with the

01:09:07.050 --> 01:09:12.510
English and his troops seemed to have got fed

01:09:12.510 --> 01:09:15.609
up of the idea of war, killed him and gave his

01:09:15.609 --> 01:09:19.649
head to Harold, the confessor. So that made Edith

01:09:19.649 --> 01:09:24.210
a widow. She returned to her family in Mercia

01:09:24.210 --> 01:09:29.329
and then when Harold We don't exactly know when

01:09:29.329 --> 01:09:31.710
Harold and Edith married. It could have been

01:09:31.710 --> 01:09:34.350
1065 or it could have been 1066. It could have

01:09:34.350 --> 01:09:36.470
been before or after Edward the Confessor's death,

01:09:36.850 --> 01:09:43.689
but basically most people agree that it was a

01:09:43.689 --> 01:09:47.449
political arrangement based on Harold needing

01:09:47.449 --> 01:09:51.149
the support of Edwin and Moorcar, the two other

01:09:51.149 --> 01:09:56.380
great earldoms, to shore up his place on the

01:09:56.380 --> 01:09:59.439
throne or his claim for the throne depending

01:09:59.439 --> 01:10:02.180
on when the agreement was made. It was certainly

01:10:02.180 --> 01:10:08.319
by, Harold went up to York around Easter, just

01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:13.960
before Easter 1066, so it's really possible that

01:10:13.960 --> 01:10:19.359
that was when he married Edith of Mercia, you

01:10:19.359 --> 01:10:21.260
know, he went to make an agreement with Edwin

01:10:21.260 --> 01:10:24.260
and Moorcar, they all met at York. sealed it

01:10:24.260 --> 01:10:26.939
with a marriage and then brought her home. She

01:10:26.939 --> 01:10:31.380
was pregnant at the time of the Battle of Hastings.

01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:35.699
She was waiting in London and Edwin and Morkar

01:10:35.699 --> 01:10:40.119
were in London with their forces after having,

01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:44.880
you know, they've been badly mauled at the Battle

01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:57.090
of They'd been defeated by Harold Hardrada just

01:10:57.090 --> 01:10:59.670
before the Battle of Stamford Bridge and their

01:10:59.670 --> 01:11:02.789
forces had been badly mauled and were in no shape

01:11:02.789 --> 01:11:06.130
to take part in Stamford Bridge or to make it

01:11:06.130 --> 01:11:08.529
down to Hastings but they had arrived in London

01:11:08.529 --> 01:11:10.409
by the time the Battle of Hastings was fought

01:11:10.409 --> 01:11:14.229
so they took their sister North to Chester and

01:11:14.229 --> 01:11:18.329
then probably to the continent because they knew

01:11:18.329 --> 01:11:24.090
that she was pregnant and if she had a son then

01:11:24.090 --> 01:11:27.329
William would want that son and that is alluded

01:11:27.329 --> 01:11:30.390
to in the program in the final episode of King

01:11:30.390 --> 01:11:34.109
and Conqueror that Edith Swanneck says to Harold

01:11:34.109 --> 01:11:39.090
about her own children Her she has a son called

01:11:39.090 --> 01:11:41.609
Magnus, which she actually does have a son called

01:11:41.609 --> 01:11:44.810
Magnus But in the program, she's got this one

01:11:44.810 --> 01:11:46.890
son called Magnus and there's about four sons

01:11:46.890 --> 01:11:50.609
in all Magnus is about three and he was about

01:11:50.609 --> 01:11:53.750
16 at the time But she said, you know, William

01:11:53.750 --> 01:11:57.149
would kill Magnus for certain even if he let

01:11:57.149 --> 01:12:02.470
the daughters live so The idea of taking Edith

01:12:02.470 --> 01:12:08.010
of Mercia away from William was common sense

01:12:08.010 --> 01:12:12.510
really. So she probably she went somewhere on

01:12:12.510 --> 01:12:15.369
the continent. There is a suggestion there is

01:12:15.369 --> 01:12:21.729
a monastery in France that says that their refectory

01:12:21.729 --> 01:12:25.909
was paid for by the Queen of England and the

01:12:25.909 --> 01:12:30.069
possibility is that it was this Edith but it's

01:12:30.069 --> 01:12:32.729
very vague and not all historians agree that

01:12:32.729 --> 01:12:39.020
it was. So, yeah, that's why she doesn't play

01:12:39.020 --> 01:12:43.420
as big a part in the 1066 story. She's probably

01:12:43.420 --> 01:12:46.899
the least prominent of the 1066 story because

01:12:46.899 --> 01:12:53.729
she'd only been Queen since about April. position

01:12:53.729 --> 01:12:56.609
on the throne, her position in Harold's life

01:12:56.609 --> 01:12:59.970
is questionable, you know, she was Queen for

01:12:59.970 --> 01:13:02.670
appearances sake, whereas Harold loved Edith

01:13:02.670 --> 01:13:05.710
Swannock and that's the story that everybody's

01:13:05.710 --> 01:13:09.510
carried on with. Yep. Rather than books. That's

01:13:09.510 --> 01:13:11.149
what the series definitely rolls with most because

01:13:11.149 --> 01:13:14.970
that's the, I mean the whole having Lady Emma

01:13:14.970 --> 01:13:17.970
imprison Edith Swannock and having that be the

01:13:17.970 --> 01:13:21.350
reason why Harold Godwinson leads an attack on

01:13:21.350 --> 01:13:25.189
London to reclaim that role in society with Edward

01:13:25.189 --> 01:13:27.869
and Emma. I thought, yeah, that's just a bit,

01:13:28.869 --> 01:13:31.010
the elastic is getting thinner and thinner with

01:13:31.010 --> 01:13:34.109
each stretch. Yeah, I nearly turned it off with

01:13:34.109 --> 01:13:43.789
that bit. I'm like, you're what? I think we don't

01:13:43.789 --> 01:13:46.130
know what happened with Edith Swanek when Harold

01:13:46.130 --> 01:13:48.350
was exiled. I think she probably did the same

01:13:48.350 --> 01:13:50.590
thing as was done with Edith of Wessex, went

01:13:50.590 --> 01:13:55.130
into a convent or retire to her own lands for

01:13:55.130 --> 01:13:58.710
safety you know but no imprisoning women like

01:13:58.710 --> 01:14:01.909
that no that's that's not something edward the

01:14:01.909 --> 01:14:05.270
confessor would do anyway you know it's just

01:14:05.270 --> 01:14:12.029
very far -fetched i guess we should not let matilda

01:14:12.029 --> 01:14:14.770
of landers go without a good mention because

01:14:14.770 --> 01:14:17.939
i was really impressed with her the acting performance

01:14:17.939 --> 01:14:22.119
of her character in the series, certainly. She

01:14:22.119 --> 01:14:24.720
was very much how Emma should have been portrayed,

01:14:24.859 --> 01:14:27.939
I think, apart from obviously the torturing thing.

01:14:28.880 --> 01:14:31.800
The woman that knows too many tools that she

01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:35.359
shouldn't have been played with. I wonder if

01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:37.460
maybe they were trying to take a nod from Vikingswell

01:14:37.460 --> 01:14:42.659
Hallow. Emma didn't do anything, she just spoke

01:14:42.659 --> 01:14:46.569
to the poor woman that she talked to. I did think

01:14:46.569 --> 01:14:49.430
that. Somebody's been watching Vikings Vile Hallow

01:14:49.430 --> 01:14:51.569
but decided Matilda can be the torturer this

01:14:51.569 --> 01:15:00.890
time. It was hard to reconcile my version, my

01:15:00.890 --> 01:15:04.390
image of Matilda with the early episodes of Matilda.

01:15:04.710 --> 01:15:07.550
Basically because in 1043 Matilda's this grown

01:15:07.550 --> 01:15:09.949
woman already married to William the Conqueror

01:15:09.949 --> 01:15:14.189
in the program and in the actual real life she

01:15:14.189 --> 01:15:19.310
was A child. Really? How young did she marry

01:15:19.310 --> 01:15:23.449
William then? She married William in her mid

01:15:23.449 --> 01:15:29.430
-teens in about 1050. Okay and was it really

01:15:29.430 --> 01:15:31.329
supposedly after he pulled her hair and pushed

01:15:31.329 --> 01:15:35.409
her in so much? Oh god please. That is in the

01:15:35.409 --> 01:15:38.579
Chronicles. And every now and then you read a

01:15:38.579 --> 01:15:40.699
novel or something where they have that and he's

01:15:40.699 --> 01:15:44.760
like, oh yeah, she said no, so he raced after

01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:47.979
her, pulled her off her horse, pulled her pigtails,

01:15:48.260 --> 01:15:52.479
kicked her and beat her until she said yes. She

01:15:52.479 --> 01:15:55.720
was the daughter of a count, very significant

01:15:55.720 --> 01:15:57.760
count as well, the Count of Flanders, who was

01:15:57.760 --> 01:15:59.859
part of, the Flanders at the time was part of

01:15:59.859 --> 01:16:04.619
the Holy Roman Empire. She was the granddaughter

01:16:04.619 --> 01:16:09.300
of the King of France. He was an illegitimate

01:16:09.300 --> 01:16:13.899
Duke of Normandy. She would be marrying beneath

01:16:13.899 --> 01:16:16.619
her, even though he was a Duke. Technically she

01:16:16.619 --> 01:16:19.199
was marrying beneath her because he was illegitimate.

01:16:19.720 --> 01:16:22.699
He needed her on sight. There's no way he beat

01:16:22.699 --> 01:16:25.680
her and reduced her to anything. And all you

01:16:25.680 --> 01:16:27.960
see throughout their lives is a partnership.

01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:31.979
and he loved her he doesn't there's no mention

01:16:31.979 --> 01:16:35.979
there's a couple of mentions of mistresses but

01:16:35.979 --> 01:16:39.359
I mean there's a mention of one mistress that

01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:43.859
apparently Matilda hamstringed when she found

01:16:43.859 --> 01:16:49.420
out and had the girl killed and then died because

01:16:49.420 --> 01:16:53.220
she was struck by God for actually doing it when

01:16:53.220 --> 01:16:55.340
we know she died after a long illness so it's

01:16:55.340 --> 01:16:58.579
like yeah that's you know that's somebody just

01:16:58.579 --> 01:17:01.520
telling stories they had a really good relationship

01:17:01.520 --> 01:17:05.340
and she did keep a couple of secrets like she

01:17:05.340 --> 01:17:08.380
was very fond of her son Robert and William didn't

01:17:08.380 --> 01:17:11.199
like him and they had a falling out she used

01:17:11.199 --> 01:17:13.619
to send Robert money but she didn't tell William

01:17:14.649 --> 01:17:20.569
and she did it through an intermediary William

01:17:20.569 --> 01:17:22.729
found out this intermediary was giving money

01:17:22.729 --> 01:17:25.890
to Robert and was about to have him executed

01:17:25.890 --> 01:17:28.250
when Matilda said actually he's doing it for

01:17:28.250 --> 01:17:32.850
me so don't execute him please it's my fault

01:17:32.850 --> 01:17:37.430
so but she is like I said she was still only

01:17:37.430 --> 01:17:41.390
a child in 1043 so that's a bit you're just like

01:17:41.390 --> 01:17:45.069
oh dear but I get that they're trying to keep

01:17:45.069 --> 01:17:48.409
the story the same characters in the same story.

01:17:50.029 --> 01:17:53.770
They get the genealogy a bit mixed up as well

01:17:53.770 --> 01:17:58.590
because her father Baldwin is Baldwin the fifth

01:17:58.590 --> 01:18:03.170
Count of Flanders and the other lady from Flanders

01:18:03.170 --> 01:18:06.550
in it Judith of Flanders who's married to Tostig

01:18:06.550 --> 01:18:11.970
is called a cousin by Matilda and niece by Baldwin

01:18:11.970 --> 01:18:16.949
V. Judith was actually Baldwin V's sister. She

01:18:16.949 --> 01:18:19.189
was the daughter of Baldwin IV by his second

01:18:19.189 --> 01:18:23.529
wife and the aunt of Matilda. But they were about

01:18:23.529 --> 01:18:27.510
the same age. Judith was about only a year older

01:18:27.510 --> 01:18:29.329
than Matilda, so they would have been brought

01:18:29.329 --> 01:18:33.149
up together at the court and they would have

01:18:33.149 --> 01:18:35.789
probably been brought up more like sisters than

01:18:35.789 --> 01:18:41.640
aunt and niece. because Judith's father died

01:18:41.640 --> 01:18:44.039
shortly after she was born, so it was her brother

01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:48.000
who looked after her education and things. So

01:18:48.000 --> 01:18:51.659
yeah, they get that bit wrong, which is like,

01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:56.640
oh no, she was her aunt! Well, I get why they

01:18:56.640 --> 01:19:04.060
did that. So yeah, so Matilda is, what they don't

01:19:04.060 --> 01:19:10.130
say in the film is that when William is building

01:19:10.130 --> 01:19:14.649
his fleet to invade England. The flagship, they

01:19:14.649 --> 01:19:20.029
do show the flagship, is called the Mora. And

01:19:20.029 --> 01:19:25.289
it was paid for by Matilda. And she gave it to

01:19:25.289 --> 01:19:27.649
William as a gift as his flagship for invading

01:19:27.649 --> 01:19:29.869
England. So she was totally behind the invasion.

01:19:29.890 --> 01:19:33.489
That's nice. Total support of William. And she

01:19:33.489 --> 01:19:38.149
did stay behind an actor's regent. whilst William

01:19:38.149 --> 01:19:43.050
was in England. She wasn't crowned until 1068,

01:19:43.109 --> 01:19:47.310
I think it was, when she came over for her coronation.

01:19:47.869 --> 01:19:50.829
And she was already pregnant with Henry I at

01:19:50.829 --> 01:19:54.449
that point as well, her youngest son. That is

01:19:54.449 --> 01:19:57.770
one thing they do miss out at the end. The coronation

01:19:57.770 --> 01:20:02.850
scene of William, his wife, isn't there. No,

01:20:02.869 --> 01:20:06.250
she was still in... she's on her own throne in

01:20:06.250 --> 01:20:08.130
Normandy thinking contemplative thoughts like

01:20:08.130 --> 01:20:10.710
okay he's got his country I've got my country

01:20:10.710 --> 01:20:15.149
what shall we do now? Yeah but they have I mean

01:20:15.149 --> 01:20:19.029
and she was in charge of Normandy the the nominal

01:20:19.029 --> 01:20:21.949
regent was their son Robert but he was only 12

01:20:21.949 --> 01:20:26.369
so she was the power behind the dukedom whilst

01:20:26.369 --> 01:20:29.109
he was invading England which shows exactly what

01:20:29.109 --> 01:20:32.390
he thought of Matilda he thought of her as a

01:20:32.390 --> 01:20:37.819
capable woman fully capable of ruling Normandy

01:20:37.819 --> 01:20:42.079
in his absence. Yeah, that's what I was really

01:20:42.079 --> 01:20:43.800
impressed with. I'm really surprised about because

01:20:43.800 --> 01:20:47.840
of course I grew up learning about 1066, learning

01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:49.840
about Edith Swanneck purely because she's mentioned

01:20:49.840 --> 01:20:52.079
as being the one who identified Harold Godwinson's

01:20:52.079 --> 01:20:55.760
body. We never hear at all about Matilda when

01:20:55.760 --> 01:20:57.439
we're learning a 1066 education, at least when

01:20:57.439 --> 01:21:00.779
I was growing up. Which is funny because when

01:21:00.779 --> 01:21:04.720
you think about it, Matilda's coronation in 1068

01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:11.279
is the coronation, it was changed from the coronation

01:21:11.279 --> 01:21:15.539
of Queen Emma and it was used, it is still the

01:21:15.539 --> 01:21:19.239
coronation of Queen's consorts used today. Really?

01:21:19.579 --> 01:21:23.659
that you know it was she she was the first one

01:21:23.659 --> 01:21:26.739
and she is the example if you watched the way

01:21:26.739 --> 01:21:31.159
Queen's consorts like Matilda of Scotland, Matilda

01:21:31.159 --> 01:21:35.939
of Boulogne, after Matilda of Flanders, it's

01:21:35.939 --> 01:21:42.279
her example they follow of being of using patronage

01:21:42.279 --> 01:21:47.079
and that quiet femininity to get your way. It

01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:50.760
was all done by Matilda of Flanders first. And

01:21:50.760 --> 01:21:53.779
she is the one, the example of queenship that

01:21:53.779 --> 01:21:58.100
people follow rather than Queen Emma. And she's

01:21:58.100 --> 01:22:02.479
also... Oh, what was I going to say? I was just

01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:04.140
going to say something and I've forgotten it

01:22:04.140 --> 01:22:08.840
now. It slipped my mind. But yeah, she is the

01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:13.539
one who... Oh, yes. Luckily, they didn't put

01:22:13.539 --> 01:22:17.180
the pulling pigtails and beating her half to

01:22:17.180 --> 01:22:19.520
death in the program. And the other thing they

01:22:19.520 --> 01:22:22.819
didn't put in, which I'm really glad about, is

01:22:22.819 --> 01:22:27.920
the Matilda Flanders was a dwarf myth. Really?

01:22:29.079 --> 01:22:34.260
Oh, scandal. Yeah. There was this idea that she

01:22:34.260 --> 01:22:39.210
was something like only four foot tall. It comes

01:22:39.210 --> 01:22:41.649
from, it's a very modern idea. It comes from,

01:22:41.649 --> 01:22:48.789
I think it was the 1920s. They examined her remains

01:22:48.789 --> 01:22:52.729
and measured her thigh, but there's only, I think

01:22:52.729 --> 01:22:55.010
there's only a few bones left and they measured

01:22:55.010 --> 01:22:59.789
her thigh bone and a report, somebody misread

01:22:59.789 --> 01:23:02.050
it and said, oh, she was only four feet tall.

01:23:02.520 --> 01:23:05.140
And that seems to have stuck for most of the

01:23:05.140 --> 01:23:07.779
20th century, whereas it was actually reported

01:23:07.779 --> 01:23:11.659
that she was about five feet, which wasn't unusual

01:23:11.659 --> 01:23:15.279
for the time. But there were so many reasons

01:23:15.279 --> 01:23:17.779
why she wasn't four feet. You know, she had about

01:23:17.779 --> 01:23:22.479
10 children if she'd been and William wasn't

01:23:22.479 --> 01:23:26.159
at all. So it would have been physically difficult

01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:29.479
for her to birth 10 children if she had been.

01:23:31.720 --> 01:23:33.680
That's impressive, I mean it's the one thing

01:23:33.680 --> 01:23:36.300
that always staggers me is how many children

01:23:36.300 --> 01:23:41.100
these women had to bear and raise, whether in

01:23:41.100 --> 01:23:43.939
kind of like royal state or kind of like common

01:23:43.939 --> 01:23:47.479
level, or at least lower levels of society, because

01:23:47.479 --> 01:23:53.739
I've only got the one. But at least they did

01:23:53.739 --> 01:24:01.989
show her as as a grown woman, full size, and

01:24:01.989 --> 01:24:05.529
didn't make that into something, thankfully.

01:24:07.529 --> 01:24:10.510
And I do like the way they portrayed that she

01:24:10.510 --> 01:24:14.090
did know Judith, and that they showed that they

01:24:14.090 --> 01:24:18.569
did have a relationship. I mean, Judith of Flanders

01:24:18.569 --> 01:24:23.050
gets rough treatment in the program, shall we

01:24:23.050 --> 01:24:26.220
say, because... If you haven't watched it yet,

01:24:26.380 --> 01:24:28.119
then I'm not going to tell you exactly what happened,

01:24:28.260 --> 01:24:31.479
but I am going to tell you she survived 1066

01:24:31.479 --> 01:24:36.479
and went on and married again and commissioned

01:24:36.479 --> 01:24:44.720
these four stunning gospels. And if you just

01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:49.560
Google gospel books of Judith of Flanders, There

01:24:49.560 --> 01:24:52.119
is, I think there is a photo of one of them.

01:24:52.119 --> 01:24:55.800
I saw one at the Anglo -Saxon Kingdoms exhibition

01:24:55.800 --> 01:24:58.500
at the British Library a few years ago and it

01:24:58.500 --> 01:25:02.899
is absolutely incredible workmanship on the covers

01:25:02.899 --> 01:25:06.479
of these books. They're jeweled, you know, they're

01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:08.600
incredible and she commissioned four of them.

01:25:08.619 --> 01:25:10.640
I don't think I did put a picture in there. I

01:25:10.640 --> 01:25:13.380
mustn't have been able to get hold of one. Oh,

01:25:13.380 --> 01:25:16.720
I did. Yes, there is a picture in the Silver

01:25:16.720 --> 01:25:26.649
Resort. It's just go to the images and it's to

01:25:26.649 --> 01:25:31.029
the third set of images and there it is. That

01:25:31.029 --> 01:25:33.010
is the one actually, so it's described me as

01:25:33.010 --> 01:25:34.609
well I think, and I just looked at it and I thought,

01:25:34.710 --> 01:25:44.970
oh my, Gideon. It's absolutely gorgeous and these

01:25:44.970 --> 01:25:50.949
books were created a thousand years ago. So her

01:25:50.949 --> 01:25:54.289
contribution to history actually came after 1066

01:25:54.289 --> 01:25:56.329
in her second marriage when she commissioned

01:25:56.329 --> 01:25:59.689
these gospels. So who did she marry the second

01:25:59.689 --> 01:26:04.439
time then? Oh, wealth of... Come on, wealthy.

01:26:04.979 --> 01:26:06.699
I'm asking you things like that when I haven't

01:26:06.699 --> 01:26:13.500
remembered where it is. This is the only way

01:26:13.500 --> 01:26:17.880
all these women have got any importance by who

01:26:17.880 --> 01:26:23.180
they marry. It's their duality, both as women,

01:26:23.359 --> 01:26:25.520
daughters, then wives, and of course queens,

01:26:25.699 --> 01:26:27.840
then a lot of them all end up as widows. I think

01:26:27.840 --> 01:26:30.590
we all end up as widows, in fact, yes. Geetha

01:26:30.590 --> 01:26:34.189
loses Godwin, how Edith Swannack and Edith of

01:26:34.189 --> 01:26:37.569
Mercia lose Howard Godwinson, Emma lost both

01:26:37.569 --> 01:26:42.770
Ethelred and Canute. Yeah, Emma do you find this

01:26:42.770 --> 01:26:46.609
lost hosting? Wealth the fourth, youth of Bavaria,

01:26:46.829 --> 01:26:48.989
there you go. I knew it was Wealth something,

01:26:49.109 --> 01:26:54.750
I couldn't remember where from though. So how

01:26:54.750 --> 01:26:58.180
old would have been Matilda then at the time

01:26:58.180 --> 01:27:00.939
of 1066 if she if she wasn't meant to be a grown

01:27:00.939 --> 01:27:05.340
woman then how old would she have been? She married

01:27:05.340 --> 01:27:09.920
William around 1050 so she would have been and

01:27:09.920 --> 01:27:12.119
she was only a teenager then she was about 14

01:27:12.119 --> 01:27:20.500
or 15 so she would have been 20 something? Probably

01:27:20.500 --> 01:27:25.380
about 30. Ah a bit older okay. that's interesting

01:27:25.380 --> 01:27:27.579
because yeah because she definitely looks over

01:27:27.579 --> 01:27:33.399
30 I can be polite in in the series um but yeah

01:27:33.399 --> 01:27:36.340
I was really impressed with her performance as

01:27:36.340 --> 01:27:40.239
an actress in that role because both her and

01:27:40.239 --> 01:27:44.100
the evil swan neck have a bit of a kind of kind

01:27:44.100 --> 01:27:48.399
of woman on woman standoff through words which

01:27:48.399 --> 01:27:51.630
is kind of like trying to kind of like I think,

01:27:52.069 --> 01:27:54.149
oh yes Edith, we're not here to talk about children,

01:27:54.289 --> 01:27:56.630
what are you really here to talk about? And they

01:27:56.630 --> 01:27:58.369
both know what the husbands are talking about,

01:27:58.390 --> 01:28:01.489
so it's kind of like a parallel discussion going

01:28:01.489 --> 01:28:03.750
on about the future of England. Yeah, and that

01:28:03.750 --> 01:28:05.550
the women are behind it. I mean it's a shame

01:28:05.550 --> 01:28:09.069
that that probably never happened because there's

01:28:09.069 --> 01:28:12.010
no indication that Edith was in Normandy with

01:28:12.010 --> 01:28:15.590
Harold, which is a shame because I just, that

01:28:15.590 --> 01:28:18.250
is one scene that I thought, god it's total fiction,

01:28:18.350 --> 01:28:21.100
but I really wish it had happened because Yes,

01:28:21.279 --> 01:28:23.420
the women are not talking about babies, they're

01:28:23.420 --> 01:28:27.960
actually talking about things, the, the politics,

01:28:28.300 --> 01:28:30.939
you know. Yeah, yeah. Because they know one of

01:28:30.939 --> 01:28:32.659
their husbands has got to defeat the other one

01:28:32.659 --> 01:28:35.520
now that they've got the whole feud in the middle.

01:28:36.500 --> 01:28:40.619
Yeah. So I like the way they portray, I think,

01:28:41.460 --> 01:28:44.039
I think they get a lot wrong about you this Swan

01:28:44.039 --> 01:28:46.899
Lake, but I think they get the essence of her.

01:28:49.339 --> 01:28:53.640
and her support for Harold and I do like it towards

01:28:53.640 --> 01:28:56.899
the end when they're talking about Harold going

01:28:56.899 --> 01:29:02.329
over to down to Hastings to fight. It's Margaret

01:29:02.329 --> 01:29:05.329
of Mercia walks into the room and Edith Swanneck's

01:29:05.329 --> 01:29:07.670
talking to Harold and she goes to Margaret. Oh,

01:29:07.869 --> 01:29:09.569
can you just take the children away? And I'm

01:29:09.569 --> 01:29:12.449
like thinking, she's just told Harold's new wife

01:29:12.449 --> 01:29:14.989
to take the kids out of the way while she has

01:29:14.989 --> 01:29:17.770
a chat with her husband. Yes, I suppose crowned

01:29:17.770 --> 01:29:22.210
queen. Because Edith Swanneck was never a crowned

01:29:22.210 --> 01:29:26.329
queen, but Edith of Mercia was. So yeah, that

01:29:26.329 --> 01:29:30.420
was a very well explored. Well, briefly dynamic

01:29:30.420 --> 01:29:32.680
because it was a very brief appearance for Evie.

01:29:32.819 --> 01:29:36.460
She was like the last throw of the dice before

01:29:36.460 --> 01:29:40.000
1066. But after Matilda was crowned, did she

01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:42.619
then return to Normandy I assume to oversee that

01:29:42.619 --> 01:29:46.199
or did she stay on England for a bit? She stayed

01:29:46.199 --> 01:29:48.340
in England for a little while because she was

01:29:48.340 --> 01:29:51.739
actually in, oh you might not know this, but

01:29:51.739 --> 01:29:55.739
do you know who, how many kings of England have

01:29:55.739 --> 01:30:01.600
been born in Yorkshire? Not a clue. Genuinely

01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:04.239
not a clue. And everybody who likes Richard III

01:30:04.239 --> 01:30:06.279
will be very upset to hear that it's not Richard

01:30:06.279 --> 01:30:11.800
III. There was one. The only Yorkshire King is

01:30:11.800 --> 01:30:19.920
Henry I. Really? He was born in Selby. Yeah,

01:30:20.060 --> 01:30:24.979
he was born in Selby because Matilda had accompanied

01:30:24.979 --> 01:30:29.699
William North. towards the harrying of the North.

01:30:31.140 --> 01:30:32.939
Oh yeah, I remember learning about that at school.

01:30:34.119 --> 01:30:37.739
Yeah, she was then sent south and she couldn't

01:30:37.739 --> 01:30:41.119
move because she was actually nine months pregnant

01:30:41.119 --> 01:30:43.359
so she gave birth to Henry and then she and Henry

01:30:43.359 --> 01:30:47.020
were both sent south to safety while William

01:30:47.020 --> 01:30:49.699
continued his harrying of the North. But yeah,

01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:54.020
the only English King born in Yorkshire is Henry

01:30:54.020 --> 01:30:58.739
I. You heard it here first, people. I don't know

01:30:58.739 --> 01:31:01.399
that. I might drop in regular conversations,

01:31:02.760 --> 01:31:05.340
especially being as I come from Coles, Yorkshire.

01:31:06.739 --> 01:31:08.859
Interesting. I wonder if that's why the writers

01:31:08.859 --> 01:31:11.380
or the directors, producers, creative team then

01:31:11.380 --> 01:31:16.220
started to introduce Matilda of Flanders as pregnant

01:31:16.220 --> 01:31:18.359
in the series, because that's how she enters

01:31:18.359 --> 01:31:21.500
the series. She enters pregnant and accompanying

01:31:21.500 --> 01:31:25.100
William with his own... the usual problems in

01:31:25.100 --> 01:31:28.500
Normandy, which I guess I never knew of. I've

01:31:28.500 --> 01:31:30.699
briefly learned through reading of the sources

01:31:30.699 --> 01:31:33.619
that of course William had a very dramatic childhood

01:31:33.619 --> 01:31:35.619
that itself would make an excellent series if

01:31:35.619 --> 01:31:41.100
done properly. There is a film, it's a French

01:31:41.100 --> 01:31:44.739
one though, it's called Guillaume Le Concourant

01:31:44.739 --> 01:31:47.760
and it's actually quite good and it starts with

01:31:47.760 --> 01:31:51.989
his dad's death. on crusade and so um follows

01:31:51.989 --> 01:31:57.430
the early life of William. Because it's certainly

01:31:57.430 --> 01:32:01.029
hinted at kind of like that like see it's a legitimacy

01:32:01.029 --> 01:32:03.930
because of course Louis the king of France then

01:32:03.930 --> 01:32:06.069
insults him wonderfully by calling him a bastard

01:32:06.069 --> 01:32:09.689
over and over again yeah um but that kind of

01:32:09.960 --> 01:32:12.439
that he always had to have protection because

01:32:12.439 --> 01:32:14.840
he was always under the threat of assassination

01:32:14.840 --> 01:32:19.260
like his father was. Oh, yeah, he was. He was

01:32:19.260 --> 01:32:23.819
sleeping when somebody got into his bedchamber

01:32:23.819 --> 01:32:27.439
one night when he was about eight or nine and

01:32:27.439 --> 01:32:29.859
they killed the person, his guardian who was

01:32:29.859 --> 01:32:33.119
in there with him, but somebody got him to safety.

01:32:34.140 --> 01:32:37.840
Yeah, he was under constant threat. The King

01:32:37.840 --> 01:32:41.739
of France, to be fair, while he was young actually

01:32:41.739 --> 01:32:44.340
protected his borders and guaranteed his safety.

01:32:44.460 --> 01:32:46.939
It just grew up and William started spreading

01:32:46.939 --> 01:32:48.840
his wings that they started having arguments

01:32:48.840 --> 01:32:52.899
over land and things and going to war a few times.

01:32:54.640 --> 01:32:56.600
That was certainly something that they touched

01:32:56.600 --> 01:32:59.760
on really lightly in the TV series how the only

01:32:59.760 --> 01:33:03.819
way William was going to get a united force against

01:33:03.819 --> 01:33:06.159
King Henry but also to launch an invasion of

01:33:06.159 --> 01:33:10.189
England was by unifying the dukes of Normandy,

01:33:10.289 --> 01:33:11.930
that he wasn't just the only duke, that there

01:33:11.930 --> 01:33:13.729
were other dukes again, which was slightly different.

01:33:14.149 --> 01:33:16.729
No, there weren't. There was only one duke, but

01:33:16.729 --> 01:33:20.189
the others were counts and lords and things like

01:33:20.189 --> 01:33:23.789
that. So there was only one duke of Normandy

01:33:23.789 --> 01:33:25.630
and then there was duke of Brittany, which is

01:33:25.630 --> 01:33:30.010
next door. The thing is, we have this idea of

01:33:30.010 --> 01:33:34.050
united France. that wasn't what it was in those

01:33:34.050 --> 01:33:37.590
days. The king of France, France was mainly around

01:33:37.590 --> 01:33:43.590
the Paris area and the other areas were like

01:33:43.590 --> 01:33:48.449
Aquitaine, Toulouse, Normandy, Brittany. They

01:33:48.449 --> 01:33:51.850
were semi -independent dukedoms that owed allegiance

01:33:51.850 --> 01:33:55.510
to the kingdom of France who had their own laws

01:33:55.510 --> 01:33:58.090
and customs separate from the kingdom of France.

01:33:59.349 --> 01:34:04.470
It's a bit like the Dane Law in Wessex. The King

01:34:04.470 --> 01:34:06.529
of France is always going to war with all these

01:34:06.529 --> 01:34:09.289
people because he's trying to extend his own

01:34:09.289 --> 01:34:15.210
influence, which they do for most of the medieval

01:34:15.210 --> 01:34:18.069
period. Philip II is still doing it against King

01:34:18.069 --> 01:34:24.350
John 200 years later. Britain doesn't get absorbed

01:34:24.350 --> 01:34:29.500
into the French crown until Anne of Britain who

01:34:29.500 --> 01:34:34.979
marries the King of France in the 1480s or 1490s

01:34:34.979 --> 01:34:37.319
or something. And that's when France finally

01:34:37.319 --> 01:34:41.779
gets one, the finest we know today. But yeah,

01:34:41.779 --> 01:34:45.619
it's a long way off in 1066. So the King of France

01:34:45.619 --> 01:34:49.819
is fighting for every morsel of land he can get.

01:34:52.159 --> 01:34:55.520
That's really interesting. I never kind of think

01:34:55.520 --> 01:34:58.680
of, as you say, France. being so many sections

01:34:58.680 --> 01:35:03.239
just like England was even with its kind of like

01:35:03.239 --> 01:35:06.199
earls and the wit and of course it's the same

01:35:06.199 --> 01:35:08.960
thing they're all individual guys with their

01:35:08.960 --> 01:35:12.140
own land trying to get more by offing or marrying

01:35:12.140 --> 01:35:16.100
into the other one. Well in 1066 we have this

01:35:16.100 --> 01:35:21.479
idea that England was this country that had been

01:35:21.479 --> 01:35:24.779
unified Nobody even thinks of it as a unified

01:35:24.779 --> 01:35:28.140
England. In 1066, England had only been in existence

01:35:28.140 --> 01:35:37.279
for about 120 years. 938, 940 is when Afghanistan

01:35:37.279 --> 01:35:41.479
united England. And I don't think Northumbria

01:35:41.479 --> 01:35:44.520
was actually in it straight away then. So, you

01:35:44.520 --> 01:35:47.180
know, Wessex and before then you had the kingdoms

01:35:47.180 --> 01:35:51.180
of Wessex, Mercia, Northumberland, East Anglia.

01:35:51.310 --> 01:35:55.810
and so they were still building their kingdoms

01:35:55.810 --> 01:36:00.909
and the England of 1066 was actually quite used

01:36:00.909 --> 01:36:03.729
to being invaded on a regular basis and had been

01:36:03.729 --> 01:36:08.729
for a good few years. Yeah I mean I will say

01:36:08.729 --> 01:36:11.210
that on that invasion I think it was atrocious

01:36:11.210 --> 01:36:13.970
that they even hinted at and they're calling

01:36:13.970 --> 01:36:17.140
for Hardrada to come and save them. thank them

01:36:17.140 --> 01:36:19.279
all and it's like okay i'll just go to the next

01:36:19.279 --> 01:36:22.939
Scandinavian up the line yeah yeah that wasn't

01:36:22.939 --> 01:36:25.560
a bit odd Emma going to Harald Hardrada come

01:36:25.560 --> 01:36:30.100
and invade it's like no she didn't no well she

01:36:30.100 --> 01:36:33.479
was dead by that point anyway um yeah it was

01:36:33.479 --> 01:36:35.939
more tostic going to Hardrada and going i'll

01:36:35.939 --> 01:36:38.340
help you and Hardrada going well there was this

01:36:38.340 --> 01:36:43.920
old agreement between the kings of um Denmark

01:36:43.920 --> 01:36:49.520
and Norway where if one died the other one succeeded

01:36:49.520 --> 01:36:52.600
to all their lands and he was like well I'm now

01:36:52.600 --> 01:36:57.680
king of Denmark and Norway and so I could do

01:36:57.680 --> 01:37:00.500
that with England and it was very tenuous just

01:37:00.500 --> 01:37:04.220
like William's plan was very tenuous but mainly

01:37:04.220 --> 01:37:10.340
it was if I win the battle I win so yeah it's

01:37:10.340 --> 01:37:13.750
a very sad irony that kind of like Harald Hardrada

01:37:13.750 --> 01:37:16.649
had one last victory at Fulford and then Godwinson

01:37:16.649 --> 01:37:19.229
had one last victory at Stamford Bridge and then

01:37:19.229 --> 01:37:21.250
William ultimately claimed the last victory.

01:37:22.470 --> 01:37:26.289
Godwinson at the end. Yeah so Edwin and Mark

01:37:26.289 --> 01:37:29.130
are weakened Hardrada so that Harold could defeat

01:37:29.130 --> 01:37:32.109
him. Hardrada weakened Harold so that William

01:37:32.109 --> 01:37:33.909
could defeat him. We just needed somebody to

01:37:33.909 --> 01:37:37.210
come along and defeat and we can defeat William

01:37:37.210 --> 01:37:40.989
then but nothing happened so. It is all a very

01:37:41.180 --> 01:37:44.340
a great series of unfortunate events. I mean

01:37:44.340 --> 01:37:47.039
it's a whole lineage, lineage of the kings, one

01:37:47.039 --> 01:37:49.920
father, then son, then another son, another mother,

01:37:50.039 --> 01:37:52.699
and then another. As you say quite a few in your

01:37:52.699 --> 01:37:55.220
book, it all stems from S All Ready and Ready

01:37:55.220 --> 01:37:57.979
and Emma. They laid the foundation for which

01:37:57.979 --> 01:38:05.729
1066 happened. I mean, if any of Canuck's sons

01:38:05.729 --> 01:38:08.569
had married or had an heir, the world would be

01:38:08.569 --> 01:38:10.529
a very different place, England would be a very

01:38:10.529 --> 01:38:13.210
different place. I mean, I still dream of what

01:38:13.210 --> 01:38:15.810
if Hadrad had won? Wouldn't it get to both Godwinston

01:38:15.810 --> 01:38:18.789
and Normandy? That would have been a really interesting

01:38:18.789 --> 01:38:22.220
world it could have been. I've got a soft spot

01:38:22.220 --> 01:38:28.560
for Hardrada. He's like the Superman of the 11th

01:38:28.560 --> 01:38:33.340
century. I mean his life is remarkable. I mean

01:38:33.340 --> 01:38:36.319
so equally was Canute. Canute had equally a remarkable

01:38:36.319 --> 01:38:40.020
life being the young age he was when Swain Thorpeby

01:38:40.020 --> 01:38:42.119
died and finally getting the throne of England

01:38:42.119 --> 01:38:44.279
and then having to deal with Denmark and Norway

01:38:44.279 --> 01:38:47.630
and that whole thing. Oh yeah, I mean I've got

01:38:47.630 --> 01:38:50.609
books on my shelf that I will flag up at the

01:38:50.609 --> 01:38:52.789
end in a final piece on this episode for anyone

01:38:52.789 --> 01:38:55.430
who wants to learn more about the real Harold

01:38:55.430 --> 01:38:57.829
Hadrada, the Canute. I know I've certainly read

01:38:57.829 --> 01:39:00.770
both of them in historical fiction. Justin Hill,

01:39:01.470 --> 01:39:03.069
great friend between the two of us, he's written

01:39:03.069 --> 01:39:05.470
both Shieldwall, which sees the rise of Godwin

01:39:05.470 --> 01:39:07.850
through the era between Canute and Ethelred in

01:39:07.850 --> 01:39:10.670
Ready, and of course Viking Fire, which is all

01:39:10.670 --> 01:39:12.770
about Harold Hadrada and I absolutely love that

01:39:12.770 --> 01:39:17.250
book. Absolutely love it. But yeah they're just

01:39:17.250 --> 01:39:19.090
they're just the men but they equally I mean

01:39:19.090 --> 01:39:21.390
I guess we should of course touch on how Hedrada

01:39:21.390 --> 01:39:25.529
had two wives according to him. He did yes. Now

01:39:25.529 --> 01:39:28.010
I know of course from Justin's own historical

01:39:28.010 --> 01:39:31.550
adaptation of his life we encounter one wife

01:39:31.550 --> 01:39:33.449
that he seemed to fall in love with far off in

01:39:33.449 --> 01:39:36.189
Constantinople but then I know he had I guess

01:39:36.189 --> 01:39:39.010
kind of a more formal marriage of sorts with

01:39:39.520 --> 01:39:41.720
Someone else could you possibly tell us? Yeah,

01:39:41.720 --> 01:39:44.319
it seems to be the other way around with Harold

01:39:44.319 --> 01:39:50.199
Hardrider though. He married Elisif of Kiev When

01:39:50.199 --> 01:39:53.140
he was after he got back from Constantinople

01:39:53.140 --> 01:39:55.840
and then for some reason I'm having to look it

01:39:55.840 --> 01:39:57.399
up because I can't remember the name of his second

01:39:57.399 --> 01:40:08.210
wife And I know I've got it somewhere So It's

01:40:08.210 --> 01:40:11.109
just Thor, that's it. Yes, of course it's Thor,

01:40:11.970 --> 01:40:15.229
which is the one he seems to have married in

01:40:15.229 --> 01:40:22.430
the Danish style, because she was Danish. But

01:40:22.430 --> 01:40:25.989
it seems to be that he married Elisif and they

01:40:25.989 --> 01:40:31.869
only had daughters, and they hadn't got any sons.

01:40:32.050 --> 01:40:36.859
So he then married Thor. in the hope of having

01:40:36.859 --> 01:40:41.380
sons. And he had two sons with Thora. So it just

01:40:41.380 --> 01:40:46.720
seems to be a practical arrangement. And he seems

01:40:46.720 --> 01:40:48.560
to have got on with both of them, though. But

01:40:48.560 --> 01:40:52.939
he took Elisif, he brought with him, and left

01:40:52.939 --> 01:40:56.880
on Orkney whilst he invaded England. But he left

01:40:56.880 --> 01:41:03.399
Thora in Norway because his son, by Thora, was

01:41:03.399 --> 01:41:06.909
left his region. so he left Laura there to look

01:41:06.909 --> 01:41:13.630
after him. So it's interesting but yeah having

01:41:13.630 --> 01:41:19.090
two wives just was not unusual. At least they've

01:41:19.090 --> 01:41:21.569
ever acknowledged as queen in any aspect compared

01:41:21.569 --> 01:41:24.130
to the other women we've been speaking about.

01:41:24.829 --> 01:41:27.550
How coronations worked in Norway whether it was

01:41:27.550 --> 01:41:30.010
just purely for the men or whether they did acknowledge

01:41:30.010 --> 01:41:33.979
the women a little bit. I mean some even suggest

01:41:33.979 --> 01:41:36.800
that Elisif was dead by the time that he married

01:41:36.800 --> 01:41:43.319
Thora and she never even left Kiv. We don't know,

01:41:43.380 --> 01:41:45.539
you know, there's so little information on her

01:41:45.539 --> 01:41:47.720
and of course the main information is from the

01:41:47.720 --> 01:41:52.439
sagas and they're notoriously unreliable. So

01:41:52.439 --> 01:41:55.020
there's more work to be done on Elisif of Kiv

01:41:55.020 --> 01:41:59.619
I think and on Harald's relationships in particular.

01:42:00.870 --> 01:42:04.229
Because didn't Harold have some kind of... Was

01:42:04.229 --> 01:42:07.289
it the person in power of care? Wasn't he an

01:42:07.289 --> 01:42:09.729
uncle to Harold? Because that's where he sent

01:42:09.729 --> 01:42:11.949
all his money from his earnings in Constantinople,

01:42:12.029 --> 01:42:17.470
did he not? Yeah, he was... Let me get it right.

01:42:20.510 --> 01:42:24.069
Or is it someone in Russia? No, his brother's

01:42:24.069 --> 01:42:28.729
daughter was married to Vladimir. Was it Vladimir?

01:42:30.960 --> 01:42:33.579
Yeah, I think it was his brother's daughter who

01:42:33.579 --> 01:42:38.640
was married to the Prince of Kiv. Okay. Or his

01:42:38.640 --> 01:42:45.579
aunt, something like that. Yeah. Okay, so I didn't

01:42:45.579 --> 01:42:48.199
wonder if there was a familial connection. Yeah,

01:42:48.579 --> 01:42:51.479
there was. Yeah, there was a familial, because

01:42:51.479 --> 01:42:57.260
he'd gone to Kiv after the Battle of Stiklstad.

01:42:58.010 --> 01:43:01.310
when his brother had been killed he was about

01:43:01.310 --> 01:43:04.390
15 at the time and he'd had to be he'd had to

01:43:04.390 --> 01:43:08.529
leave Norway so he made his way to Kiev and then

01:43:08.529 --> 01:43:13.750
on to Constantinople yeah he traveled a fair

01:43:13.750 --> 01:43:18.609
bit oh gosh and that's just not even touching

01:43:18.609 --> 01:43:20.270
him how much traveling he did once he was in

01:43:20.270 --> 01:43:25.220
Constantinople yeah Gosh, well, I think we've

01:43:25.220 --> 01:43:27.720
covered pretty much everyone and everyone else

01:43:27.720 --> 01:43:30.000
in between. I think you can't have these women

01:43:30.000 --> 01:43:31.659
without the men, and equally you can't have the

01:43:31.659 --> 01:43:33.819
men without the women, because these men come

01:43:33.819 --> 01:43:39.619
from women. Gosh, as I said at the beginning,

01:43:39.819 --> 01:43:42.000
if you want to learn so much more, do get Silicon

01:43:42.000 --> 01:43:44.399
the Sword. It is on your screen. It's available

01:43:44.399 --> 01:43:49.220
to buy, download, borrow. Go enjoy it. been enjoying

01:43:49.220 --> 01:43:51.260
reading it and I'm learning so much more than

01:43:51.260 --> 01:43:54.319
I knew before. And thank you so much for joining

01:43:54.319 --> 01:43:56.640
me on this special episode to talk about the

01:43:56.640 --> 01:44:00.659
queens and the widows that were involved in various

01:44:00.659 --> 01:44:03.380
ways in the King Conqueror series and helping

01:44:03.380 --> 01:44:05.800
our audiences learn about the real women that

01:44:05.800 --> 01:44:08.060
these characters are based on. Thank you, it's

01:44:08.060 --> 01:44:10.100
been a pleasure Rebecca, thank you very much.

01:44:11.699 --> 01:44:13.039
Thank you Sharon for joining me.