Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review. how such subjects are
being presented to modern audiences today. If
you like Viking stuff, you are welcome in my
Valhalla and I hope you stay for the conversation.
Welcome everyone to Valhalla Conversations. podcasts
and in this geeky hall of Viking -ness I get
to talk to amazing academics, researchers, historians,
reenactors and of course creatives which there
are many that use Vikings both historical and
mythological in their creative works in all sorts
of mediums and this month's episode I am delighted
to have all the way from LA Zach Kaplan, a comic
writer of some pedigree in fame he's got titles
published with Dark Horse, with Vault Comics,
with DC But I am here to talk about his latest
best -selling series app, and it's a stunning
cover. It's this one, and it will be popping
up on the screen for viewers to get a closer
look because my virtual screen keeps securing
its beauty. But it is Kill All Immortals. And
for those of us who, like me, have binged recently
The Old Guard on Netflix, check this one out
because it's just that top -notch level better.
If only because it's got Vikings in, but that's
unbiased. So if you've not heard Kill All Immortal
States and Gentlemen, I'm just going to read
to you the blurb of this wonderful combined edition.
It says, a thousand years ago, a barbaric Viking
family discovered a mysterious source of immortality.
Now in our modern world, they are an enigmatic
and ruthless billionaire family with a powerful
banking empire. But when the only daughter, Frey
Asphalt, seeks to finally be free from her family's
influence, she must discover the truth about
their supernatural secrets and confront her very
well -trained siblings in a deadly and epic struggle
for independence. It's just awesome. It has been
described and it says it on the back as well.
Succession meets John Wick with immortal Vikings,
which I absolutely slaughtered. I mean, I have
more succession, but I have heard of John Wick
just because Keanu Reeves is such a pop star
on his own, right? But thank you for joining
me today. I will stop rambling. Thanks for having
me. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Yes. So I guess
I should start with the burning question that's
been in my head ever since Discovery Studios
of Okay, immortals. Immortality is a theme that
has fascinated humans for eons, especially since
the rise of Vikings, of course, with Interview
with the Vampire has all the immortality themes
in it. But you've decided to use a Viking family
of all sacred, not sacred, but civilizations
of the past, I should say, to explore this theme.
What brought you to pick Vikings? It's a great
question. I wonder if someone's listening, am
I the first to do Vikings and immortality? I
don't know. I can only think of one example and
that was in Charlene Harris's True Blood series
in that she's got a Viking vampire called Eric.
Okay, there you go. That's the only one I've
come across, I must admit. This idea started
with kind of two two basic germinations. One
was like, if you are immortal and you're stuck
with your family forever, how do you get out
of your family? That's a very interesting problem
to have, to be immortal with the whole family
and what conflict comes with that. The other
thing is I like to, I've written about a dozen
different, create our own series and comics.
And I really like to look at very classic tropes,
whether it's mind control or alien arrivals,
and kind of say, well, what hasn't been done
and what kind of reflects modern times? My favorite
kinds of movies and TV shows are the ones that
I come out and I'm just dying to talk to someone
about. And so when I thought about immortality,
you know, what modern ways have we not looked
at immortality or how does immortality perhaps
already exist in our society in some sort of
metaphoric nature? And I kept coming back to
the billionaire class and just how you know the
very wealthy and powerful seem to be almost immortal
in their names, in their in the freedom to do
whatever they want. And then they pass that power
and wealth on through their families, generation
to generation. So very early in the process,
I knew this was a story about immortal billionaires,
but where did their heritage come from? What
culture would I set it in? And Vikings felt so
authentic to the barbaric nature that seems to
represent modern capitalism, that the rules of
modern capitalism, even if you go back to Wall
Street in the 1980s, greed is good, you know?
Everything is okay as long as you win and you
win by any means necessary. And it seems that
our politics, our society, we're just in an era,
whether you love it or hate it, that seems to
endorse this sort of attitude, you know, that
the victor, claims the spoils and there really
is no moral quandaries or limitations anymore.
Everything is okay. And so the kind of, and I
know that Viking culture is a very complex and
there's a lot of shades to it, but I think Vikings
were known for their fearlessness and their willingness
to go and do things that others hadn't. And they
had no qualms about you know, conquest by any
means. That was just their nature and so that
felt like a really great way to look at the themes
that I wanted to look at in the story. That's
fascinating and it makes so much sense hearing
you explain it from that angle. I never thought
of kind of like seeing as wealth as almost like
a essence of immortality and that it just fixes
that name forever as much as kind of like fame
and celebrity does. Certainly Vikings as a family
unit have such a strong core about them because
I know from my interest in them, kind of like
in Iceland for example, they're always having
blood feuds between one farmer and the next farmer
and son avenging father and then their son avenging
their son and it just goes on and on and on.
But thinking about it inside a family unit, kind
of like that conflict within the family more
than family versus another family, it certainly
it brings it down to such a level that we can
relate to in so many ways because of course even
like the microcosm siblings always fall out to
some degree. I've not met many siblings that
haven't but certainly kind of the essence that
you've explored with the control of the father
being Leif Erickson. Oh no is it Erickson? Yeah,
Lee Ferguson, is that right? The father is in
spoiler alerts if you're already excited. No,
no, no worries. We're going to get into it here.
We're going to get into it. But the Viking family
is none other than Eric the Red, who was actually
banished from... the Nordic area and he was cast
out to Iceland and he did a lot of exploring
in Iceland and Greenland. And so we posit that
he and his family and his four adult siblings,
they were all adults at the time, discovered
something that has made them immortal. And yeah,
it lends itself to, because Vikings do have a
very tight knit family and a family of codes
and of loyalty. And the father is a very, revered
sort of institution where you follow the father
and there's this, so all of that only further
lent to the conflict that arises for our protagonist,
Frey, because she's in this family and a thousand
years later she's finding herself torn between
wanting to be a more modern, independent, free
-thinking person and being attached to her mortal
family who's not going anywhere, who has barbaric
Viking tendencies and follow her father who has
turned their humble banished beginnings into
being a billionaire so that through conquest
both in old world and new world they've amassed
a fortune. So yeah, the Viking family culture
really lent itself to this sort of the conflict
of the family in this story. So did you dive
much into researching about Eric the Red and
how, of course, his leaf then discovered North
America, which of course where it's all set?
Yeah, I researched a bit about Eric the Red and
I researched a bit about his adult children.
You know, something we don't get into in the
comics so much, but it was always, we hint at
it, is that, yeah, Eric is is his son is Leif,
and we have the character Leif, but they've been
alive for a thousand years. So what they're kind
of essentially doing is flipping identities every
generation to allow themselves to continue. And
there's one part in the story where the siblings
talk about this. So even in the, you get that
Leif did these things and then Eric does these
things, but then we're not so sure if it's actually
been Eric all along. in my fiction here. But
yeah, I did research a good bit of it. And it
was certainly researched a lot about the characters
just to kind of get certainly an identity for
Eric. Eric the Red grew up to a very violent,
very aggressive father. And by all accounts,
the fact that he was banished from his own homeland
for fighting and feuding seems to have followed
suit. And so I only then stand to reason that
this is the kind of behavior that he's adopted.
So I did a lot of research like that. Another
thing that you'll find interesting is I did research
on the origins of our immortality tale. And so
when I started to go, OK, I've got this Viking
family and they're immortal, just right off the
bat, there's this Viking fable of Loki. and who
steals, they kidnap the goddess of immortality
from, what's the... She's in an apple orchard,
I can't remember the name of it, but you're talking
about Idun, the goddess who looks after the golden
apples. Yeah, Idun. And so they kidnapped her
and then they held her for ransom in exchange
for immortality. And so I said, well, what if
that... fable was not actually Loki. What if
it actually was Eric the Red and his family?
And so when Eric the Red and his children talk
about, there's a mystery around how they became
immortal. But when you read it, the mystery unfolds.
But at the onset, when they talk about it, they
talk about it as as it was Idoon. They found
Idoon. And we don't know enough about it. We
come to learn more about it. But I delved into
the mythology a little bit as well to kind of
wrap it in the story. So that was a lot of fun
to research the Viking mythology of that. It
was a really interesting and surprising twist,
I will say that. I thought, oh, OK, they've got
to speed on the ship. But then, oh, they find
another ship that isn't like any other ship that
humans have ever made or built or seen without
spoiling it too much. But I really liked that,
and especially having kind of like. in the era
of constantly the TV series Vikings and Vikings
Valhalla where Eric the Red does feature. Even
in that he is quite a brutal dominating leader.
He will go to the extreme of anything to remain
in power and that whole debacle. So it felt very
much in sync with that perception which Indeed
could well be true. I've obviously heard of him,
but just not read much about him. Being obviously
from the UK, most of my Viking stuff comes from
the immediate European and obviously the homeland
of Scandinavia just up across the North Sea.
But they did go about everywhere. So it makes
sense to have them kind of like have that huge
capitalist lifestyle in a separate place entirely.
I often say to my husband that we wouldn't be
surprised if you find a long boat on the moon
at some point because they just went everywhere.
And I think he's the ultimate antagonist of the
story, Eric, her father. This is really a family
drama and it has all sorts of ramifications that
we are really excited to expand on as we continue
the series. But in the first arc, it is really
this conflict that has been brewing, you know,
for a very long time, but it finally reaches
its pinnacle here. And I mean, I think about,
you know, Frey, and she comes from this background,
this protagonist, where she's been worn down
by her father for centuries. I mean, they discovered
their mortality in the 11th century. and the
ten hundreds and so for centuries she's being
told that she answers to him and you know she
does what she's told and if he wants her out
of combat she's out of combat and she can throw
a fit here or there but for the grand scheme
of things she's stuck with them and she answers
to them. Suddenly the 20th century and the 21st
century roll around and we have a woman's rights
movement and we have a completely different you
know, society evolving. And I don't think that
someone who's been alive a thousand years changes
their course on a dime, but I think that this
is something that's been slowly brewing in her
and by present day, she sees herself as an independent
person. She's trying to reimagine herself in
a modern kind of context. And that, you know,
does not square with her family's her family's
idea of who she should be. So it's only a matter
of time, and we just happened to come to the
onset of this struggle, you know, boiling over.
But it's really fun to think about the Viking
culture and the culture and the eras all wrapped
into her story. Yeah, I mean, it's one thing
that I was... going to ask you about but you've
answered in many ways so I'm really kind of like
why you chose to have Frey be the one, be the
rebel, be the kind of like defiant one in the
family and not the first born son because so
much it's always kind of like father trying to
overthrow, son trying to throw the father kind
of like topple the hierarchy with the next heir
apparent kind of thing but instead it's the woman,
it's the only daughter, the only girl in the
group. Yeah yeah yeah and there's and eric thread
had only one daughter there's even some um indications
in some of the historical context that i've read
that she might have not been of the same mother
as the boys so uh she's an outcast through and
through um and i guess there are some viking
cultural aspects you you see it in the vikings
tv show where women were considered partners
and equal and were given respect but i general
understanding is that's on a case -by -case basis.
There are some communities and some men in history
that respect Viking women, and there are some
that do not. And so I had to make that choice,
and that's obviously an easy choice because we're
trying to create a dramatic situation. So I chose
to have her father be one that does not see it
that way, sees her as lesser than. It just made
for a a more interesting conflict than having
the firstborn male who's obviously going to be
respected, who's obviously going to be a favorite,
who's going to have a source of power already.
Having a character who is up against everything.
She's up against her sibling, she's up against
her father, she's up against her gender, she's
up against the institution, she's up against
everything. It just makes it a more... fulfilling
experience to watch her overcome all that and
a more emotional connection for us, I think,
as readers. We're really rooting for her. And
then I just love the complexity of it all because
you're rooting for her independence. I mean,
it's very easy to root for her. But then what
is required of her to be independent? She's got
to go to war and take down her family. She's
got to almost become an equally barbaric entity,
which is compromising her very ideals. And that
is me channeling things that I feel in modern
times as we face, you know, very aggressive forces
to ask ourselves what is required of us in combating
these? Can we still maintain our pragmatism and
our ideals and our morality when we face our
Eric the Reds? And what is, what must be sacrificed
or what is the compromise or what is the way
to to to maintain your identity in a in a world
like that so it having her be the only daughter
just lends itself to such a better story you
know yeah i mean if i'm i think i'm right in
this assumption that Although you've named her
Frey, the figure that she's based upon was known
as Freydice and I do believe she was the one
that slapped her breast with a sword when she
was fighting off the natives when they were trying
to found themselves in Newfoundland. kind of
like in the north above Canada, kind of like
just before they found America properly. So she's
already kind of got quite a legacy. And even
that legacy is still kind of like two sided.
Some sources describe it quite heroically and
strongly. Some describe it like, oh, but she
kind of like she wished the old gods she didn't
do Christy. Because a lot of these sources came
from so long ago after the event that we're always
getting kind of like false opinion of so and
so, not necessarily kind of like someone from
the source. which is what I think is what I love
talking to you and so many other creators about
because it gives that freedom, that opportunity
to kind of explore the what ifs around that time
about that person, about what they did or what
they didn't do and the ramifications of it. But
I do really appreciate the way kind of you had
like moments I think often around the start of
each issue at least in this first arc where you
see kind of Freya trying to say her father I
don't think we should be doing this, this feels
wrong. I know we're immortals and all that but
I don't think you should be burning these people
alive in this house because they're vagabonds
and she's like no well if you won't do it I'll
get my sons to do it then kind of thing kind
of like it just completely sweeps under the carpet
so you can see she is trying to find her feet
and then of course at the way she comes into
conflict is because she has a boyfriend who is
of course mortal because no one else is like
as far as they know. We'll get on to that segue
there in a minute or two which almost paints
the kind of modern equivalent of oh my daughter's
bringing home a boyfriend that is a proof of
but very much in a immortal context that they
cannot ever know what we are kind of like we
are better off alone that's it's kind of like
you've got to kill him or be done or be told
off and go into the naughty corner and that was
that was such a really nice Conflict to kick
things off not that he'd like not that she can
push too far and she'd seen one too many trustees
But actually just wanted to finally have this
little piece of something for herself Yeah, yeah,
I mean It was what is the straw that breaks the
the camel's back here and and and I think what's
interesting is That relationship in and of itself.
I tried to approach it very complex and and I
I I don't think the phrase in love with this
guy at the onset, but he's still hers and it's
still her life. And I think it's more about her
independence. I think if it swayed too much in
the other direction, we would feel that she was
doing everything for just love. And I don't think
that's her identity. I think her identity is
one of... of ideals. And so she likes the idea
that she should be able to decide whatever she
wants to do and whoever she wants to be with.
And she sacrificed enough for sure. Why shouldn't
she get this? And her family has a different
set of views. And I almost can't, I don't have
the answer to this, but I almost can't help but
wonder if over the past many years in Frey's
story, if she's been looking for this opportunity,
that she's almost inviting it, that she wants
this fight. And so, you know, in thinking about
why would she, why does she involve herself with
a mortal and why does she let it be public and
why does she let her family know about it, I
almost think that... maybe deep down she's welcoming
this, but it's never stated and it's left very
ambiguously. But when it happens, she has a moment
or two where she says, what am I gonna do here?
But very quickly she finds her true North and
her true North is to stand up to her family.
And then she ends up only realizing that I'm
standing up to them for my own life. But what
else should I be standing up to them for? Like
you say, for history, for generations, she's
been challenging her father on all sorts of atrocities
and all sorts of actions. And so now she's finally
saying, wait a minute, maybe I have more agency
here, which is a very modern thing to try to
find your agency in a situation and ask, what
should you be doing about it? Yeah, it was a
very interesting setup to concoct and there's
this fine line of seeing her just trying to live
her life, just trying to be able to be happy.
And this really climaxes really well with especially
the final issue in this first arc where she has
parted ways without spoiling it too much, with
the guy that kicked all this conflict off to
begin with. She goes back home. Instead of running
and carrying on around the world and doing what
she can to stay in Dreda, she goes all the way
back home. And at first, she appears amicable,
calm, peaceful. But then obviously, father's
like, right, well, you need to be punished. And
of course, all three of his lads, Thor, Stain
and Leaf, come on. And she then turns the tables
on them, she makes them question what they're
doing. And I really like that as a code, instead
of kind of like toppling the hierarchy from the
top down, she's toppling it from the bottom up,
because they're the pillars that support the
father. Absolutely. Right. And that's and that
feels the most authentic to me anyway, that you're
not going to topple an autocrat like Eric the
Red. just by defeating him, you have to, you
know, you have to take out his supporters and
take out his sons here in this situation. And
these are her brothers. And as a storyteller,
I tried to weave those narratives with each brother.
So each issue has its own sort of energy and
momentum where she's combating each brother.
But then you can sense that there's chance for
this relationship to go either way and she's
succeeding or failing and then ultimately it
culminates and and so yeah, it's it feels like
the right it feels like it's it's You know when
you have a story that's focused on action and
this was a real challenge for this story We've
got an action both in my first action series
So it was really rewarding to see it to see it
hit so well, but you can't just have action where
you've got Two guys and they're both tough and
they go fight The action has to come from different
philosophical beliefs kind of combating as your
two warriors fight, you know, and I mean, I think
John wick, you know, it's rewarding because you
know, he's not just the same as everyone. He's
the assassin with a heart of gold. So it's got
more layers to it. So here in this one, you know,
every time Frey fights someone, they're both
immortal. She's immortal, her brothers are immortal,
her father's immortal. So we know that even if
someone gets their head chopped off, most likely
they're coming back. So how do we build drama
out of this? This is really... freaking hard.
But the answer is that because as they're fighting,
it's a philosophical fight between her point
of view and their point of view. And they're
actually having arguments during these fights
to try to see if she can persuade them, or if
they can persuade her, can they point out her
hypocrisy, can they challenge her to that, you
know, then she realizes they're right, she's
got to evolve. And so it's a very kind of moving
story to see her go from I just want to be independent
to maybe I need to have more agency over my family
to what do I need to sacrifice to take leadership
amongst my siblings? And so we had a really fun
time kind of, you know, dramatizing that that
against the backdrop of just kick ass fights
and really, you know, thrilling, thrilling special
effects like that. I mean, it is. the action
in it is stunning and it is just like watching
a kind of like a really good thriller action
movie but on paper and especially kind of like
the little reels at that cost and where they're
all slightly moving. It does look like a cartoon
but a really epic cartoon. We have a great art
team. The artist on this is Pico Osseo and if
you're out there and you don't follow comics
a lot he's a real rising star at DC. He's done
Mr. Miracle and Black Lightning. And he's just
fantastic. We've got a real hot new colorist,
Diago Rocha, whose colors just really bring the
whole thing to life. And he actually designed
this sort of color iconography. So sometimes
you'll see like a panel almost has like a gold
filter or a red filter, depending on how heightened
the intensity of the battle is. Yeah, it's really,
really great. So, and then our letter is an Eisner
winning letter, Hassan Aksmen El Haas. So, we've
been very lucky to have a great art team on this
book and they bring the action to life and I
get to just write, you know, swords fly. Someone
kicks, someone rolls away and they bring it all
to life. So, you know, it's been great. It is
such a stunning novel through teamwork, as you
say, and of course... I can't just let you go
without congratulating on your excellent writing.
I mean, I come from a creative writing background.
I'm attempting to write something creatively
for the first time in 10 years, and it's a struggle,
and that's just short fiction. So to write for
comics, to be so concise and to get so much out
of so few words without having the entire panel
be speech bubbles, I salute you, sir, because...
I mean, even the dialogue on the first page when
Freydis is anonymously addressing the re -day,
it just grips me. I'm like, oh, this is good.
This is good. I want to know more. And of course,
my favourite bit, personally, being from a librarian
background, has to be the little library she
finds hidden away in Norway. It's like Alexander's
library, but Norse. It's got all the secret hall
and all sorts. Well, not quite the treasure of
water. It's going too far back. But you know
what I mean. It's that kind of vibe. They've
got some really good plunder. They've got some
good plunder in there. Yeah, it was fun. She
goes on a bit of an adventure to try to uncover
the family's secrets. And she's thinking that
if I can uncover the secrets, then I can have
some leverage in this negotiation and I can get
my independence. And so there's a bit of a...
globetrotting sort of adventure. And so that
was fun to kind of think about, okay, where do
they go? What do they see? What sort of probes?
And so one of the things they get to see is Eric's
The Reds, you know, very expansive collection
of plunder and bounty, which is really fun. And
they get to see a Viking ship later and all sorts
of, you know. Viking library in the middle of
the woods, and a stronghold, and all sorts of,
yeah, it was fun to really imagine that world
of mythical forgotten Viking buildings and entities
that we could dot in. And the whole book is done
in this, it's... half of it's this modern thing,
like, you know, they're fighting in the nightclub
and they're fighting on the private plane tarmac.
And so half of it and they're fighting in suits
and evening gowns. So half of it's modern. And
then the other half is is ancient still. They
still have Viking hair. They still have Viking
weapons. They still have these Viking buildings
that they're going to. So it was really fun to
bounce back and forth between those completely
different, you know, world identities. Well,
I think you You and the team behind you have
captured that brilliantly and all the designs
and they are going to be popping up around me.
So dear viewers, if you're on YouTube, do watch
and admire them because I know I've listened
to your chat with them capes and tights podcasts
and how you describe it. It's very much like
a supermodel, but after you've just in a murder
kind of thing. Yeah, kind of like the suits and
kind of like blood everywhere. But yeah, we did
the covers. We did the covers like like a fashion
shoot. Yeah, yes. It's gorgeous and I love how
on each one you show a bit of their like kind
of like Nordic tattoos going on because all the
siblings have some epic tattoo art on them and
I just besides kind of like the weaponry I mean
like Freya is holding an axe which immediately
screams Viking to me because Vikings are always
synonymous with axes even though we're a very
high prized weapon very luxurious it was usually
spears or swords if you're lucky. um but yeah
i mean of course you had the character the brother
thor carrying like a huge hammer not quite the
older size but pretty impressive stain has kind
of like his daggers on chains like you whip around
and of course yeah um leaf has the sword um eric
has the even bigger axe yeah of all of them and
it's just yeah i i mean i remember the very early
on it was okay here the five five characters,
who gets what, who gets what weapons, you know,
and how are they each different, you know, and
how do they each represent, you know, so, yeah,
the father's got the big axe, the big brother's
doors, he's got the hammer, and thinking about
them all, and Frey has got two hatchets, which
felt very fitting, because they're axes, but
they're small, but her power doesn't come from
her strength, it comes from her her quickness,
her willingness to be flexible. And so it felt
like the right weapon for her and thinking about
what weapons going to define her, because she's
going to be on a bunch of covers with hatchets.
So yeah, that was... I really, really liked that.
Especially in the start, that first issue, you
see... Eric and his boys invade a rich guy's
manor that he's not going to deal with. And so
they're like, right, we don't want to talk to
you. Well, no, there exists goodbye. Off with
your heads and all that. And they don't come
in with guns like the mafia would do if it was
initially. They come in with their blazing weapons.
And that just speaks of so much about their characters
and how much they feel impervious to anything
that like we don't need guns we can just whack
them over the head with our weapons and be gone
that'd be fine we'll have a different team to
clean up i feel like that scene the opening scene
is totally believable today i mean if you told
me that that ceo watched everybody in his mansion
get killed they said here's the contracts he
signed he came out for the press release he says
everybody i know has been killed in a horrible
accident but these guys are the best and i'm
going into business with them Totally believe
that I totally believe this a hundred percent.
So it yeah just I mean, that's the that's the
great Thing about I don't know if it's satire,
but it like, you know looking at looking at modern
times through a lens, you know, yeah busting
through and Forcing your will on someone in a
business deal with with with your axes and swords
and stuff that feels very very modern Yeah Yeah,
it just it wouldn't be the same if they use modern
weapons. It just wouldn't and that of course
Like that they're kind of like instinctual call
as people of Norse heritage They've just it's
remained a constant no matter how long they've
lived. It's it's their constant Yeah, that means
that's that's right. They had to use ancient
weapons and it's almost a kind of respect to
the battle that they come from. They come from
this, when you go to battle, you take your sword,
you take your axe, you take your hammer. They're
impervious to guns anyway, so they're not worried
about being shot, so they're gonna bring these
weapons to it, and when they fight each other,
it comes from a, why doesn't someone just get
out a gun? That's just not their code. Their
code is to use their weapons. So, yeah, absolutely.
I mean I'm instantly thinking of course I don't
mean to make comparisons but I mean it in the
best way of course kind of like with the old
guard being of course the latest Netflix kind
of iteration because of course oh my god I've
forgotten her name but the lead actress in that
she's always using her kind of like round circular
axe always no matter what she's up against she's
always using an axe so yeah it just it just fits
really really well. Yeah, I mean, Old Guard is
similar in many ways in the sense that it's an
action series that deals with immortality. I
think that we're just fundamentally trying to
look at the institution of a family and the institution
of billionaires. And because of those two institutions
being part of Kill All Immortals that are not
part of the Old Guard, I mean, the Old Guard
is about old vendettas and about, you know, that
world of immortality, but I think they're different.
And so I would say if you enjoy it, Old Guard,
you'll love this. And if you don't enjoy Old
Guard, you'll love this, because this is different
enough. Absolutely, I mean especially with your
kind of like insight into the family angle because
so many mortality things like even an interview
with a vampire it was dealing with like immortals
in a like an individual basis where they have
no one, everyone they know has died and they're
just on their own for however many long until
they convert people happily we discover someone
else who is immortal. Whereas definitely I think
yours as an immortal family is definitely the
first. I could be wrong, people feel free to
comment in and correct me. Yeah, and I think
that's that's essential. That's such an essential
part of your story. And yeah, I cannot wait to
see where it goes next, because I'm pleased to
tell you this is that Kill All The Models 2 is
coming out soon. Yeah, we're doing a whole new
season, so to speak. And it starts in October,
just right around the corner. And I yeah, it's
so good. I'm so excited. I'm so excited for everyone
to check it out. We've already we're already
deep in it. And But yeah, we're getting a chance
to explain the world. If you've read the first
one, you'll know exactly where we're going with
it because there's a cliffhanger at the end of
the first arc that tells you very clearly where
we're going with it. But yeah, one thing that
I've always, I got into comics about nine years
ago or so. And the first two series I worked
on were, it was a two image. Pop Cal books. One
was called Eclipse about a world with deadly,
deadly sunlight. And the other one was called
Port of Earth, which was what if aliens came
not to blow us up, but with a business deal?
And those both found success. So I took those
for several arcs. So I immediately began with
what I consider longer form storytelling, where
you're looking at characters for not just five
issue mini series, but you're looking for them
for one arc, two arcs, three arcs, four arcs.
And what I love to do as a storyteller is make
the emotional journey more complex. See how I
can muck it up a bit and really test these characters.
And so what's really fun, as much as we get to
bring in more characters and I've eased more
immortals and more world of immortals and all
sorts of stuff like this, okay, Frey has made
this big decision at the end of the first thing.
And has she resolved everything or has she only
opened up, you know, a can of worms? And how,
how, and I guess who is she on her way to becoming?
Is she on her way to becoming independent or
dependent? Because you can't have agency in a
situation and be independent. Those things are
different. You can't change the world and be.
your own person. You can't, I don't even know
if you can change the world and maintain your
ideals. And so, you know, can, we want to see
her tear apart her father's kingdom and rebuild
it in a sense of justice. And we want to see
her right the world against any immortal foes.
And we also want to see her have the opportunity
to be a human being and to have her own feelings
and live her own life. And those are two completely
different objectives and I think it's really
great when you have a story where your character
has two things and you want them to have both
and they can't have both and that that tears
you up inside because you don't know what you
want for them and you don't know what not only
what are they going to get and what are they
going to choose you know what if they betray
what if they betray you what if you think they
should have the first thing and then they choose
to have the second thing you're like no you should
have had the first thing so I really love to
write a complex character story like that. And
Frey's first chapter is the setup of that, and
the second chapter gives us the opportunity to
really say, you know, now that she's thrown her
family into war with itself, and she's said maybe
I want this agency and maybe I want this independence,
what is she going to do when it comes down to
they're against each other? And so I think that's
very Viking. I think for a Viking, if you go
back, you know, to women in the Viking times,
did they want to be, you know, equals? That means
they have to get, be killers too. They have to
be in the battlefield too. You know, if they
want to be removed from all that they can, but
then they're giving up their power and agency
in the society. And so it's this brutal this
or that that is not fair, but it's the reality
of, of living in a in a world of war so that's
what i'm really excited but but the second season
kicks ass and if you if you if you hear this
and you love the idea of just seeing you know
immortal vikings fighting and then having a complex
character story underneath uh absolutely uh check
out the new season in october from dark horse
you can the best way to probably is to call any
local comic book shop that is in your area and
order it. Because if you're new to comics, the
comic industry really lives on pre -orders. And
so shops will order a certain amount, but most
of those will get snatched up right away. So
the best way is just to say, this sounds great,
I want it. And you just call or email local shop
and you pre -order it. And they will order the
whole series for you. And then it'll be there
waiting for you. And you just pick it up. More
often than not if you're like, I'll go check
it out when it comes out It may not be there
and then you're waiting for the graphic novel
if you want to read read right away month -to
-month If you want to wait for the graphic novel
graphic novel will be in bookstores comic shops
online everywhere. Yes But you can't not wait
because guys the covers coming out too are just
stunning and they've actually got an Eisner winning
artist now because she works with Thought Bubble
Comic Con, which happens in Harrogate over here
in the UK every November. So I know she's a big
part of that team. That's a wonderful comic convention.
So if you're in the UK and you love comics, go
to Thought Bubble in November. You won't regret
it. It's just three giant halls full of comic
houses. I think she founded it or co -founded
Thought Bubble. She probably did. She probably
did. It's been around for longer than I've been
going to. She's an amazing, she's an amazing,
she's a writer and artist and a cover artist
and an amazing comics person. And yeah, we were
very fortunate to get her on a... Exclusive variant
cover. So you absolutely if you want that cover
on the on the new issue of killer mortals you
have to call a shop and get them to get that
for you because that's That'll be rare and exclusive.
But she just won, just this past week, and she
won the Eisner for best cover artist. So very
excited to have her cover. And then we still
have the A series of covers by Oliver Barrett.
He did all the first arc series. So if you see
the graphic novel, the series where the cover
with Frey is sitting in the chair and bloods
everywhere, he does the whole main cover series.
And he's doing the whole main cover series for
the second season. And then we've got a couple
others. We've got... Oh, Matt Taylor, who I think
might be another UK artist, but I'm not sure.
But wherever he comes from, that's an amazing
cover. And then John Jang is a real hot cover
artist. He does a ton of shows here in the United
States and we got one from him. So yes, really
cool. However, just seeing Frey in more badass.
I think when I took on, I mean, of all the books
I've done, they've all been, most of them been
miniseries. And I don't know that any have been
this character, like this boom, like this character's
on the thing. They've always usually been more
world -based or other things. But this, I knew,
I was like, this is a character vehicle, like
phrase on almost all the covers, this is her.
And so we really, it's like... when we looked
at comps, we looked at like, well, it's kind
of like Erica Slaughter, like, you know, we're
walking the footsteps of something that's killing
the children and a heroine that you really get
attached to and you're compelled to watch their,
to go along for the ride with their story. That's
who this is about. We're a little different tonally
in some ways, but I think at the end of the day,
a complicated heroine character who's leading
an action series like that was, you know, so
it's been fun to see all the different shades
of Frey on covers, because that's really the
way you let readers know, if they're not reading
the book, kind of who this is, you know. It's
her photo shoot, so, you know. Well, I must admit,
hours before we came on to do this recording,
I was looking through my wonderful edition, although
I have all the individual issues, but I had to
get a graphic novel as well, just because funny
can sit pretty on my shelf. And I think out of
all the kind of like alternative covers, like
the last one in the book by Skyler Partridge
has to be my favorite, just with that kind of
like split and the colors. If I could have that.
In a frame I would I don't have a space alas
in my house to put it up, but I went on I think
she's drawing some some dc maybe supergirl right
now, but I've had a few covers by sky That's
a fantastic one because it captures phrase duality
and and you absolutely not only is not only is
the strip clearly like the strip of a weapon
or something cutting through and it's blood red,
but you see a different shade of her in the background.
She's perceived as a kind of Viking identity.
And then the front is a more modern identity
and it's a colder identity. And so what is it?
This is about the Viking identity bubbling out.
And I think there's even like a cityscape, a
modern sort of city map along the perimeter background.
So yeah. I'm a big fan of, as you heard from
the Capes and Tights podcast, a big fan of really
being very thoughtful on cover. So, you know,
trying to infuse as much storytelling into the
cover as possible. So that one was an exceptional
one by Sky, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're
all sensational. I enjoyed that deep dive you
took with the host of that podcast into kind
of like... why comic covers you kind of have
to judge a comic by its cover because it's such
a visual medium whereas of course we always say
that don't judge a book by its cover but with
a comic you kind of have to because that's what
pulls you in it's like an advert in itself. for
itself. I still can't work out how on earth it
came into my life but I'm so glad it did. I absolutely
love it and I cannot wait to see what dangers
you throw at Frey and her brothers next. I'll
be sure to get you an advance copy so you can
check it out for sure. Oh that's very kind of
you Seth. Oh, well, thank you so much for coming
on to my podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure
and honor to just fangirl with you about your
amazing work. I do a lot of podcasts, but anytime
you take on something like Viking culture, for
example, you're always wondering, am I doing
this justice or am I totally butchering this?
Are the Viking experts out there going to read
this and go, Oh, no, Zach. What did you do here?
So it's very complimentary and appreciated to
hear that you are going, no, this is awesome.
This kicks ass. You've done Vikings a good job.
So thank you very much. I appreciate that. Oh,
well, I'm no expert. I just love orphans. Yes,
you are. You are. You're an expert, yes. You
are. Okay, I will have that written on my staff
badge. Thank you. Well, I know kind of like,
obviously I do move in some academic circles
and I know some academics, even running kind
of like the Vikings, the original series was
out, some of them applauded it, some of them
are a bit dubious, but it's all a matter of interpretation
because we do not know for sure what these people
thought, said or did because all our sources
are Christianized and written afterwards and
they're all written from the point of view of
them being the bad guys. Like just to go back
to the earlier point about kind of like Vikings,
always synonymous with kind of like barbarism
and violence and kind of like kickassery. They
weren't the most violent type of people around
that age. The Anglo -Saxons were just as bloody,
so were the kind of like the people in French
and the Charlemagne, kind of like the whole medieval
world was all at war with itself. I mean England
of all people, we should know because we were
tiny kingdoms feuding with each other before
we even agreed to get along. It's true. It's
the reputation that they've gotten, and it's
very hard to determine. And there's, for every
Viking that is described as barbaric, there's
a warrior of every other culture that is described
as equally barbaric. But I by no means think
that the Asvalds are representative of all Viking
culture. They are merely a sliver of a family
of Vikings that has now found themselves in our
modern world. If anything, they're meant to be
more representatives of billionaires. This is
what I think of when I think of, and maybe there
are some good billionaires out there and there
are good billionaire families, but look, that's
the thing. There's nuance to everything. But
yeah, it's fun to explore the Viking aspect and
the world of immortality as a form of billionaire
class. Well, I will let you get back to your
wonderful work. Thank you, everyone. And join
us next month. Thank you very much, everyone.
Thank you, Zach. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you
very much for listening to this episode. I hope
you enjoyed the discussions between my special
guests and myself. Please do check out the episode
blurb for links to their works and websites.
If you liked this episode let me know by giving
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