Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review how such subjects are
are being presented to modern audiences today.
If you like Viking stuff, you are welcome in
my Valhalla and I hope you stay for the conversation.
Welcome everyone to Valhalla Conversations podcast
episode 17. And my special guest this month,
in the month of July, is the beautiful and wonderful
Caitlin Felix, who is a debut author of this
most fantastic novel. And if you're listening
on Spotify, you really need to come over to YouTube
so you can admire this most beautiful cover.
I'm holding it up, she's holding it up. It's
of a majestic, magnificent longship, entirely
crude. by women. That's right people, you heard
me. The women are bringing it home, they're knocking
Uhtred out of his last kingdom and all sorts
of other things. They're showing Ragnar Lothbrok
how it's done because that is exactly how you've
done, brilliantly. So Caitlin, I will stop fangirling.
Please introduce yourself and of course your
wonderful, wonderful book. Oh, thank you so much
for having me here. I've been so excited to talk
to you about all of this. And I just want to
say thank you so much because you were an ARC
reader and I really appreciate it. As well, your
review for Rand's Daughters was incredible and
like literally made my entire year. So thank
you. Yeah, so my name is Caitlin Felix and my
book Grands Daughters came out March 4th of this
year and I am really excited to talk to you about
it today. Because I loved it that much and I
was one of the lucky few. We're lucky and high
jar of her fellowship to read the book before
it came out generally. I finished it in three
days, ladies and gentlemen. It was that good.
And it's been many years since I've read a book
that quick and that intensely. I think since
my Harry Potter days when I was a wee lass in
my teenage years. But I'll read up the blurb
to tempt readers and listeners into buying, downloading
and of course... borrowing this book to all good
libraries and bookshops. But then I'm going to
shower them with the prologue because I absolutely
adore the language in your prologue. It's everyone
sitting comfortably. Rams Daughters. Ambition,
greed and betrayal. Edda Fiskweef or Fiskwife.
You can of course correct me on the pronunciation.
I'm going to say fishwife because that's the
anglicization. I can't even say the word. I am
English, I assure you, but I just can't speak
the language. Set sail to Al -Andalus with her
misfit crew of women in pursuit of treasure and
fame. And instead of gold, what awaits them is
bloodshed and treachery. Snared in a twisted
scheme, Gaida vows to reclaim all she has lost,
her ship, her wealth and her crew. She will chase
vengeance across the storm -lashed Irish Sea
to the bustling trade hubs of Difflin. aka Dublin,
and Jorvik, aka York, and ultimately to the frozen
outposts of Iceland. Rand's Daughters is a saga
of sea salt, blood and gold. Oh, what a beautiful
tribute. A fierce and unyielding tale of 10th
century Norse women who defy the odds and forge
their own destiny in a world of violent men.
I'm just going to swoon, give me a second. And
that was just a blurb. You read that excellently.
That was so full of drama. I loved it. It's amazing
well written that blurb because I remember doing
my creative writing course at uni and it was
really hard to write a blurb for a whole level.
It's ridiculously hard. It is. It is so hard.
Oh my gosh. So Joshua Gillingham. So you've had
him on your podcast before. He's an excellent
creator. And he was also my editor for Rand's
Daughters. And an amazing editor he is. But he
and I went through this blurb at least 40 times.
like tweaking it and perfecting it and we went
back and forth and back and forth so many times
and this was this was the final version that
we were both kind of like maybe it's okay and
it turned out to be better than we thought because
i think we saw it too many times but uh yeah
i have a lot of things to thank joshua for um
but he is one of the masterminds behind this
blurb Well I'm not surprised you said the word
40 because that's one thing I learned to my English
degree with creative writing courses that writing
is all about rewriting and rewriting and rewriting
and rewriting and eventually yes you do work
out when to stop otherwise you just end up doing
all the good that you think you've done but it's
it's almost such a it's such a cycle of self
-doubt, self -critique, you think, you know,
that's not good enough. That's not good enough.
Constantly. Constantly. And I have bad news.
It never goes away. It never stops. Well I salute
you because you've done it, you've written the
book, you've got it published, you've been through
the editing and you're out the other end so I
salute you because I enjoyed it as a degree course
because I liked having someone set me deadlines
but then when there was no one to set me deadlines
I just procrastinated and became, well, I continue
to be a bookworm, always have been, but then
I went into cosplaying for a couple of years
and then Covid and motherhood came along so that
was fun. And so here I am broadcasting. It's
an adventure, that's what life is for, right?
It is, it is. Well, again, the editing on this
book is phenomenal because the language, it's
just so immersive, so gripping, and it just echoes
so strongly of the time. It really is up there
with the levels of Giles Christian and Bernard
Cornwall and all my other favorite historical
authors. You are among many on my bookshelf.
Oh, thank you. That's hugely flattering. Both
of those authors that you mentioned are some
of my all -time favourites, particularly Giles
Christian. So, thank you. Well, I will continue
to spoil our viewers and listeners, if you'll
permit me dear viewers and listeners of course,
the prologue. It's only a page a little bit,
but it's the most beautiful, beautiful prologue.
It begins, it is well known that when a child
on the shore waves to their parents as they stand
in the beast's prow of a ship of oak, journeying
from the home fjord to a far land and plunder
beyond reckoning, that child goes away from the
sight wishing to one day sail the swan road after
them. Often they do, still more often they die
in the doing. Just brilliant. And thus it should
also be known that such aspiring sea striders
must learn. Cracked hands and sun -baked skin
teach a lesson of how salt and heat can dry you
like jerky and kill if left too long without
fresh water. broken backs and snapped oars teach
how the god Njord wrestles with the rowers hoping
to drown them. Thus muscles must strengthen until
arms and necks are as corded as the ropes that
lash the sail and until the whole of the vessel
cuts through waves like a thief's knife through
purse strings. The most important lesson a child
must learn before anything else is that an ocean
storm can be worse than battle, worse than standing
in a broken shield wall with your closest kin
bleeding and dying on either side, worse even
than the splitting, gushing death of mothers
when a babe comes too early or too swiftly, worse
still than drowning in a river after falling
out of a fishing boat, for though that is a straw
death. the drowned can still claim the simple
glory of the desire to feed their families. But
drowning in a storm is not glorious. It is the
way to be forgotten. But who will remember the
drowned? There are so many it would take a scowled
endless nights to recite them all. There are
no sagas of drowned sailors. But what child thinks
of that? Sometimes a few hardened voyages return
to the home fjord with tales of adventure, of
the letting of blood and of bright shining silver,
and those are the tales that are most dangerous.
But children will dream despite the danger, and
dreams of that kind do not fade with time. It
had proved thus for Gaida Fishwife years before,
when she had been that child waving to a parent
who never came home. So it would prove again
for years onward until the burning of the world
at Ragnarok. Random applause, everyone. Caitlin's
words. Caitlin's words are so beautiful. Oh,
you read that beautifully. It's just so evocative.
I absolutely loved it. It was like being sat
to a, next sat to a scald of the modern day,
if not the medieval era itself. It's just beautiful.
Beautiful, and it makes people want to buy and
read it well. Go re -listen to it, my magic will
work. Oh, thank you so much. You're welcome.
Thank you for letting me indulge myself as a
fangirl and just lover of your absolutely beautiful,
magnificent work. I'm so proud for you, even
though I didn't have anything to do with it.
I'm just so proud for you because it's so well
done. Absolutely wonderful. So I guess we should
start at the beginning, really. And where did
the idea for this magnificent tale come from?
Oh, OK. So you did have, as I mentioned before,
you did have Joshua Gillingham on your show before.
And he spoke about his works. And I'm pretty
sure he mentioned his all thingy work. And so.
My story with Geeta and her daughters and Rand's
daughters started in this anthology, which ties
into the All -Thingy board game, all produced
and published by Outland Entertainment. So my
short story was titled Wave Runners, and it was
there that we first met Geeta and her daughters.
And it was a very short story. I had a lot of
fun writing it. It came out, I think, in... 2019
or 2020? I could be wrong, but it came out probably
around COVID time, and it got some pretty good
reviews, including from the Brothers Gwyn, who
I would love if they wanted to read Grands Daughters
once. because they mentioned they mentioned my
story in their video which for me at the time
you know just beginning to publish some of my
work it was huge. So it got some positive reviews
which was really lovely and eventually in 2021
Joshua contacted me and he asked me if I wanted
to write a sequel and we talked about it and
the publisher wanted a full -length sequel and
so Rand's Daughters was born. And I started writing.
I had just finished writing another book, which
I am actually just starting to go back and edit.
It's been four years now, but I had just finished
it. I was already a little bit burnt out. It
was during, you know, lockdown and stuff here
in Switzerland. So I didn't have a lot to do
other than to be at my desk and write. So I started
writing it, started outlining it, was in contact
with Joshua quite a lot in that time. And then
right after I sprained both my ankles at the
same time. Oh, gosh. So, and it was a really,
really silly injury, but it gave me quite a lot
of time to sit and brainstorm and get a good
chunk of the book written as I was healing. Blimey.
Well, I'm glad it proved a big distraction from
the pain and discomfort because that must have
been really uncomfortable to let them both rest
and heal up because I've only ever sprained my
ankle once and that was skipping down three steps
whilst on a family holiday in Crete. I don't
know how, I just do it because I'm just really
clumsy. I tried walking on it for a bit afterwards
and this was at the start of a trek walk. So
in the end I had to stay on the bus and the driver
took me up and down all these hairpin roads to
the end whilst I waited for everyone else to
finish the walk. Oh my gosh, that's a story in
itself. It's just me, naturally clumsy. But I'm
glad, in a way, that, A, Joshua saw something
in that story, and as well as the people at Outland
Entertainment for thinking, yes, there's something
here, there's gold to be found here, this lady
can just write some more. And I'm so glad you
did, so glad you did. For those of our readers
and listeners who, and viewers, well, they should
be readers, they will be readers by the end of
this episode, I will. see to it. Who haven't
come across the old thingy, the Crescent and
the Northern Star anthology with the ultimately
prequel, as I guess you could call it, short
story in there. Yes. Caitlin's holding it on
screen. Do look it up, it's on Outlander Entertainment.
Would you mind giving them a brief overcap of
what happens in that short story? Sure, so The
Crescent and the Northern Star, the title of
this anthology, gives a little bit of a context
of what these stories are about. It's a collection
from, I think, 13 other authors, maybe 12, some
of whom are good friends, like Genevieve Gornicek,
who you also just had on the podcast. She is
wonderful. So these stories tell about characters
in the board game who are Jarls in the context
of the board game, but it's all about how the
Viking world and the Muslim peoples and the cultures
and the Arabic cultures intersected in the Viking
age or the early medieval period and how there
was this exchange of goods and merchants and
language and religion and culture, all of this
exchange between these two. you know, very large
people groups and how, you know, travel was a
lot more far extending, I think, than a lot of
pop culture nowadays, you know, tends to make
us believe. And so these stories all had to do
with that. How did Vikings come into contact
with Arabic or Muslim Islamic cultures and peoples?
So my story was about Gita and her daughters
and how they find a stowaway in their ship. And
this stowaway is running away because of the
death of their lover, who was an emissary of
the emir in Al -Andalus or Cordoba at the time.
So all of the shenanigans that come with that.
So Rand's Daughters is a following on on this
story, the fallout of what happens in the short
story, which the short story you can find in
the anthology, but I've also gotten permission
from Outland to post it on my website. katiefelix
.com you can find it there and read it there
if anyone wants that context before they read
Rand's Daughters. A few people have told me that
they appreciated being able to have that context
before they dived in to Rand's Daughters. Without
giving too many spoilers, Geeta commits an act
that will follow her for the rest of Rand's Daughters
and causes quite a lot of drama. Not the smartest
decision of hers, but she stands by it. She is
quite a character. She's got the recognizable
almost stubbornness that readers might be familiar
with of Uhtred, of Bebenberg from Bernard Cornel's
Uhtred, The Last Kingdom series. She's got the
defiance, the bravery, but also a bit of the
cunning to get through all the scrapes that she
gets into, either from her own making or from
people trying to deliberately ensnare her and
trap her and almost make her into the women figure
that most people think of when they think of
Vikings and that they're often the home keeper,
the wife, the wife of the farmer, the wife of
the fisherman. She is indeed known as fish wife
or fish quiff. mid -old north to a degree, but
she has a strong trading network and knowledge
and experience because even in her initial short
story she's there trading I believe, is she not?
So she's interested because not many people think
of women traders. both kind of like on a long
ship as she is beautifully depicted on the front
cover because they need ships to get the goods
from A to B and Jorvik to Dublin and everywhere
else in between but also kind of like at the
marketplace because I know even in the Jorvik
Viking Museum and it's a ride I've been on many
many times, too many to count, I don't think
there is a female trader in their little street.
market setup. I think it's mostly men. I know
there is a woman there but she's a buyer because
she's holding a baby in her arms but there's
not any other representation of women as traders
which is an interesting and I think possibly
an overlooked area of kind of the whole gender
lens that we have as 21st century versus the
medieval era where we don't know precisely what
happened. So I like how you've kind of lifted
the lid on that and said look. they could do
this it could have happened it quite practically
works in so many ways yeah it's a it's a really
keen observation so in history itself i wouldn't
say that there is any like equivalent um to gita
and her daughters but there were definitely figures
like female figures that are adventurers, that
are traders, or could be seen as having that
sort of influence and power. And I mean, as you
know, I've heard you speak about this before,
how women had a lot more freedoms than we think
they did, especially in pop culture nowadays,
movies and, you know, the accepted interpretation
of history. But that's all being turned on its
head now with archaeology and all of these discoveries
and new scholarship and even gender expression,
how all of these things that we had previously
believed. is being turned on its head, or at
least there's new perspectives and new voices
coming out within the scholarship itself and
within archaeology itself. And that for me is
really exciting, especially as someone who enjoys
archaeology. I don't have a degree in it, I haven't
studied it, but it's something that I kind of
follow along as a hobby, as an amateur. armchair
archaeologist. And that was what kind of drew
me a lot to some of the things in the book, a
lot of the material culture itself and how we
can look at these women in history, real women
in history, not just these fictional characters,
but real women in history and kind of reinterpret
their lives. And it's important not to look at
history and create our own interpretation colored
by a modern lens. So there were certainly hard
things in the past. It wasn't ideal. We can talk
about it and study it, but we should also remember
that Vikings were considered violent. These Norse
peoples and many other people groups were violent
and they did bad things, but they were also merchants
and they were also people, just people, humanity.
And humanity is the same throughout all the centuries.
That's a very, very good point. And I know when
I did get to the end of the book in your acknowledgments,
I believe it was a professor to do with Dublin
or Ireland at the very least that you. Yes. Thanks
a lot for helping with your research. So tell
us more about how much research and what your
research journey was like preparing for this.
I love the question about research. So right
at the beginning, I had contacted the amazing
Professor Claire Downham and she is wonderful
and so generous with her time and her knowledge.
I had been looking for you know, information
on the lives of women in the early Viking age,
particularly in Dublin. And this is one of her,
I guess, specialty areas. And I couldn't find
a lot of that sort of research when I did my
searches in the books that I own or the scholarly
papers that I looked up online. There were very
particular details that I wanted to make sure
I got right. I have like a stack of like 30 research
books. that I had been using also for my previous
book, which is also set in the 10th century,
early 10th century Jorvik. So I had a lot of
material to draw from, but for some reason that
one specific area was lacking. So I contacted
Professor Claire Downham and she was so generous
with her time and her research and pointed me
in the right directions. So I had to make sure
that I acknowledged her in the back because it
was because of her that kind of opened the door
to the rest of the research that really made
this world feel real, at least while I was writing
it. And I think it paid off. It is incredible.
And I must ask because the characters and of
course, Dida and her daughters, as she calls
them, which are the other women that she's basically
recruited through time and fortune and just chants
onto her crew of her trading vessel. They travel
up and down left and right over the spiking age
world. They kind of like they go to the Middle
East and they come back and they go to Jorvik
and then they go to Dublin and they're I think
they ultimately end, I think the big climatic
point is at the Isle of Man and then they go
up to near Scotland as well and of course you've
got quite a nice good few chapters set in Viking
Ice Dublin which many people might not be familiar
with because of course Ireland was a hive of
Viking activity. They got involved in Irish politics
and land and kings as much as they did with the
English but of course we English don't think
of that part, we just think of us and then everything
else East. No, they were very much an island.
So did you almost have to have a route in your
head as to where Gidea was going to go and then
research those bits, or did the story take you
there first and then you had to research? I'm
just trying to unpick how on earth you wove such
a beautiful tale. Yes, so it was sort of, it
took me along the journey as I wrote it. I did
have an idea of where I wanted Gita and the daughters
to go. I did know I wanted to end up in Iceland
to tie in with the all -thingy board game because
in the board game Gita is a is a ruler in the
game. And so that needed to happen. I knew that
that needed to happen. However, I also wanted
it to continue and to have consistency with the
short story that I wrote. And in the short story,
they are sailing to a land to lose or modern
day Spain and Portugal. And so I wanted to start
off there as kind of that continuation and to
follow the consequences of her actions at the
end of that short story. And so I knew I needed
to do that and I knew the next stop would be
Difflin or Dublin. and I didn't know how much
time we would spend there. So that was kind of
a surprise as I got to that part where Gita must
leave Difflin and she goes to Jorvik and for
me that was kind of a welcome surprise because
I had done so much research on Jorvik and Northumbria
in the 10th century, particularly the early 10th
century while I was writing my previous book,
so that I felt familiar with it. It felt like
going into the familiar waters, so to speak.
So it was a welcome surprise, but what I didn't
expect was to go on to the Isle of Man, because
I have never visited, I didn't know much about
it. In the terms of my research, you know...
Ireland and the Danelaw in England, the Isle
of Man, Scotland, all of these lands were so
interconnected with trade, sometimes even sharing
kings. There was a lot of turnover with kings
and rulers and yarls and all of that. So it was
a lot of fun delving into that research and into
the real history, but also getting to know these
places, which was also sort of difficult not
being able to visit these places in person. I
have been to Jorvik or I've been to York and
I visited the the Jorvik Viking Museum which
was so much fun and so excellent and I can't
wait to go back again. I've never been to Dublin
and that's a place that I've always dreamed of
going so I had to really figure out a way of
like putting myself there in my mind and not
only that but to go back in time and put myself
there and I really wanted to reflect that I wanted
these places to feel real to the reader. And
some of the feedback I've gotten is that they
really felt like they were in these places, which
for me is a huge compliment. I wanted to feel
like I was really there and that these characters
were feeling and seeing presumably what could
be there. So yeah, it was a really fun part of
writing the book. getting to go to all of these
different places. Some of it was known and some
of it was a surprise. Well there's one scene
that always sticks in my head from Edith's time
in Dublin which is where she's waking up from
what can be described as a Viking Age hangover
of sorts and she notices like there's a hole
in her daub and wattle wall which is like oh
that's another thing I need to pen. I'm like
oh my gosh that must be so unbearable for vikings
to wake up with it oh my gosh i went to patch
the wall again and get the cow done got to get
the straw got to mash it all up and i think kind
of like it's almost like me waking up and thinking
oh i've got that to wash and that's put away
and that's hoover and i'm like i could relate
but it just it it brought the humanity as you
said from the start through in that time and
setting and it we are human and Of course, you've
got such a beautiful, diverse array cast of characters,
of ethnicities, of nationalities, ranks, you've
got kings, you've got princes, you've got girls,
you've got sons of people that keep causing problems
and I'm trying not to talk too much about this.
You've also got, I mean, I'm fascinated about
the member of the crew and I'm going to apologize,
I can't remember her name, but I know she uses
what we would call sign language because she
is mute. How did he decide to have that character
involved? Because a wonderful representation
because we often think of that mutism and deafness
is quite kind of like a 18th century onwards
type thing, but it must have been around for
generations before then and we wouldn't even
know what the Shakespearean people did in Shakespeare's
time, let alone in the Viking Age world where
medicine was not a thing. Yes, yes. So this for
me was a really important description or presentation
and representation. So, you know, Leoden is how
I pronounce her name. I don't know if it's correct
because she is an Irish woman. She's a former
enslaved person. And her mutism comes about due
to a traumatic injury that her previous enslaver
inflicted upon her. So while I was writing her,
I kind of struggled with how do I depict her
use of signs in a historically accurate way.
And at the day that I was writing this, I was
actually with a really good friend of mine who
is a children's author. Her name is Louise Gooding,
and she now lives in the UK, but previously she
had been living in Switzerland. And she's an
incredible author. But we were writing together,
we were doing sprints, and I kind of bounced
it off her because she's a very vocal advocate
for neurodiversity and disability representation.
He's excellent. So I asked her, you know, what,
what, how could I do this in a way that was,
you know, both historically accurate, but also
depicting it in a, in a real way. I didn't want
to make it a caricature. I didn't want to make
it, you know, a token character. Uh, she doesn't
get a lot of screen time, so to speak, in the
short story. Um, and I wanted her to kind of
take a little bit more precedence, just like
every other character in, in Rand's Daughters.
Um, the, the female crew, each each woman gets
her time. And I really wanted to make sure Leah
didn't got a fair depiction. So Louise said to
me, you know, why is it out of the realm? I'm
going to butcher how she said it, but why is
it out of the realm of possibility that this
group of women who see each other as sisters,
as family members, that they wouldn't Work out
a system where they could understand each other
and that was like, yeah, okay That makes a lot
of sense like when you are close to someone and
you find a way to communicate and lead and doesn't
speak but she makes herself understood and It
was also important to me that she had agency
that it wasn't just everybody around her was
translating for her but that she got to choose
what she said and winter what she signed, when
she signed it. And she got to choose when the
others would translate for her. And that for
me was incredibly important so that she was a
real person with her own agency. And I think
in in one scene, another character asks her what
happens and she doesn't want to tell. And so
eventually, like she gives permission for Gita
to tell the story of what had happened to her.
But it was important to me to show that you know
these characters have their own agency and their
own lives and of course they would find a way
to communicate with each other so it just made
sense to me in that way. Yeah yeah it makes me
think back to when I was a lot younger and I
remember reading across a woman I think it was
in the Victorian era who had somehow got a child
who was blind and deaf and yet taught them the
basics of how to eat, how to drink, maybe a bit
of maths. and it just my mind, my brain couldn't
comply. How do you get someone who is both deaf
and blind to learn things and they can't see
and they can't hear because it's all through
touch but then someone had done it. Human brains
are incredible and there are some remarkable
people out there that have done these remarkable
things that seem small but have changed someone's
life entirely. So yeah, your author friend is
quite apt and it's almost a shame really that
we don't think that that's possible because we
don't we can't relate, we can't ourselves because
we're too used to having all of our abilities.
We can't picture or imagine. We have our experiences
exactly like we all have our experiences and
you know it takes a lot of self -reflection and
awareness to look at someone else and try to
live their experiences and try to understand
their experiences but that I think that's at
the heart of all humanity is that that empathy
and that reflection and that's something that
you know I myself try to strive for but I especially
try to strive for it in my in my work. I want
to do the best I can at representing all kinds
of people. Yeah I mean now that I think about
it have you ever read Rick Riordan's Magnus Chase
series? My son has. He read the Percy Jackson
series and then he's been reading the Magnus
Chase series slowly. Yes. Because that's got
an elf character from Alfheim who of course has
used not American sign language but Alfheim sign
language because they don't speak for some unknown
ability. They can't speak so they always use
sign language and he's got an incredible diverse
Representation in his characters, it's not quite
adult in the terms of being lesbian or gay, but
it ignores like there's a dwarf who of course
dwarfs are always typically blacksmith, this
one wants to be a tailor. He wants to make fine
suits and scarves and top hats and that kind
of thing. And he wants to do, but they all want
to do the opposite of what you would typically
pin them down to as a stereotype, which I think
was massively done. And I love that series. It
was a lot of fun to read. So I'm glad your son's
reading it and I hope he's enjoying it. Absolutely.
But yeah, it certainly made me think of another
book that's actually quite popular in the UK
at the minute. So I know you're on your holidays
soon. in the UK, so do look out for it. And I'm
sure it's called RuneScape. I think it is spelled
R -U -N -E -S -C -A -P -E. And I think it has
won the Waterstones Children's Book of the Year
award. And that's about a character who uses
sign language, but they get teleported with them
and a friend into a magical realm. And her sign
language is actually the ability of doing magic.
And of course, they get roped into fighting off
a great evil. I keep meaning to buy it. I just
found every book on my reading list. I will keep
an eye out for that. I think my son would love
that too. I know I would for sure. It's a beautiful
kind of like picture book. I don't think it's
a graphic novel or it might be actually. It's
got a very, it's got a beautiful cover on it.
I will have to look it up later. But yeah, I've
heard good things about it in the fact that it
won Warstone's Children's Book of the Year Award.
It's always a good sign. So yeah, I think that
was by Noisy Crow Publishers. I'm pretty sure
it is. So they published the Hilda series as
well, which I keep meaning to be. So we've talked
a little bit about Geena and about some of her
amazing crew and I won't do too much because
I want everyone to go and meet them in the book
because they're all amazing. But I know one of
the other fascinating characters I loved in your
book is, and you're going to have to remind me
of his name, is the King of the Time in Jorvik.
Who was he? Oh, Stig Trigger. Stig Trigger. Actually,
I didn't have to pronounce it anyway, but I'm
glad you did, so thank you. Yes, he was a real
fascinating character. Yes, he was actually one
of my favourite characters to write. He is a...
Gallywag, a scoundrel. He is, he's a rogue. I
loved him. He was very much fun to write and
he might be a bit controversial. I've got a few
controversial characters, not the least of which
Gita herself. She is a difficult person and she
was, I simultaneously hated her and loved her.
Her choices were challenging, even though I was
the one writing her. So Siegfried, he was, he
kind of surprised me. He is a real historical
figure. A few of the other characters are based
off of historical figures or are an amalgamation
of several historical figures that I've combined
and fictionalized. There's a lot of liberties
that I need to take as a fiction writer. That's
pretty normal. Sigfigur himself is a historical
figure. He was at one time king of Difflin as
well, and I think as well the Isle of Man before
he became the king of... Yorvik and during this
time about 921 -922 CE, I'm pretty sure that's
about the time when he is king of Yorvik. We're
not 100 % sure how old he was. We think that
he was kind of a young man, maybe not particularly
young, but I've aged him to about 30, 35, 40
around there. in his maybe late 30s, whereas
Gita is, you know, in her 40s to 50s. So I've
given him this scallywag scoundrel characteristic
and he's kind of chaotic, he's unpredictable,
he's moody, he will go from one extreme emotion
to another, he will be angry one moment and then
playful and childish the next. always murderous
and chaotic and Bloodshed and all of that, but
he was a lot of fun to write and I wanted to
Kind of carry that thread through all the way
to the end So yes Yeah, he was he's a beautiful
I Want to say almost reflection if not perfect
balancing counterpart to Ghida in the scenes
where they are together and either working together
or striving against each other for one reason
or the other because they each are very much
driven by their own agenda and their own motives
which I quite like especially I can still vividly
remember the scene where she meets him in his
hall just before something dramatic happens and
I'm not going to say what because that'll spoil
it. but yeah he was fascinating because of course
other male characters I can remember distinctly
are the current yarl if not lord that is ruling
Difflin in place of the King of Ireland or the
High King at the time so was he based another
real historical figure from Yes, so Yarol Olavi.
So he was an amalgamation of a couple of different
rulers at the time. Some of them were, you know,
of the time period, some of them were later.
There was no Yarol Olavi in Difflin at the time,
as far as I know. I think there was a Yarol Olaf
at some point, but they're not the same person.
I borrowed the name, essentially. The king that
I mentioned very briefly, King Guthroler, he
was the king at the time. And for the purposes
of the story, I needed to kind of have him out
of the picture. So he didn't feature in the book
at all. Instead, like Olavi, because he's very
connected to Gita, without spoiling too much,
he and Gita are very, very much connected in
their history as well as in the present. uh circumstances
of the plot uh so he was a really interesting
character to write because for Geeta he's a bit
of a villain or not not so much a villain as
an antagonist um whereas from maybe the reader's
perspective or even from Olavi's perspective
himself he's only being reasonable so it it was
interesting to take a few of the characteristics
of the time of how reputation worked and how
responsibility as a leader to your people worked
in the Viking Age. These people are not kings
in the sense of deserving undivided loyalty.
They owed their people. their loyalty and their
protection and their service just as much as
they expected that in return. And so Olavi has
this burden of looking after the people that
he's responsible for, one of whom is Gita. And
Gita chafes under that. So I really wanted to
depict that particular part of Viking Age culture
and expectation and how much Olavi has. this
responsibility and this burden upon him as a
ruler, as a leader. So he was an interesting
foil to Gita as well. Yes, there are just so
many characters in your stories, actually so
many. And it's such a beautiful, eclectic, crazy...
mix and they come from so many different spheres
and levels of society and professions and positions
and wealth and everything and it really is an
amazing book and I'm so proud, so proud of it
and I'm so glad to have gotten hold of it first.
but yes it's amazing. I do encourage anyone to
go buy or download or borrow Rand's Daughters
if it's in any good libraries because it is truly
worth a read, especially if you are fans of Bernard
Cornwall or Giles Christian or Justin Hill or
Theodore Brun. I could go on and on just just
just go read it just go read it you'll enjoy
it. But seeming that you mentioned another book
that you've written, which is set in the 10th
century in Jorvik, I haven't come across this
one from you yet, Caitlin. Are you able to tell
us more? Oh maybe it's it I'm editing it um as
I said like I finished I finished the first draft
right before I started writing Rand's Daughters
and Rand's Daughters took up all of my energy
and my attention for the previous four years
so I'm kind of slowly getting back into writing
again after some pretty serious burnout um So
I'm looking at starting to edit that book. Yes,
it is set in about 920 CE in the countryside
of Northumbria around Dorvik. And it is, interestingly,
based off of the mythology of Sigurd Hritha,
the Valkyrie in the mountain, the sleeping Valkyrie
in the mountain, from, I think, the Poetic Edda.
Yes, the Valsunga saga. Or if you want to be
more romantic you could call it the oh my god
the word just slipped right out of my head like
Loki stealing a thought. The Germanic one, the
Germanic tradition, the Nibelungliad. Awesome,
oh well I will definitely keep an eager hand
and ear out ready to grab hold of that book and
enjoy that. wish you all the best luck editing
it but it's finished to a degree and I hope it
continues to grow in more fun beauty and I'm
sure it'll be just as good as Ran's daughters
because you do have a talent Caitlin it is very
black and white in paper for everyone to see
and enjoy and I just can't stop saying one about
it enough. So I guess well Rams Daughters is
out there and sailing beyond wide, far and wide
and you've got some other book turning away.
Do you think you would continue to write in the
Viking Age? Is there a particular area of the
Viking Age, nationality, people, historically
wise that you find more fascinating than anywhere
else? Because of course Rams Daughters goes a
bit here, there and everywhere. Your newest one
is more set in the UK at least. Are there any
areas, particularly the Viking Age, which capture
your interest? That's a really good question.
I haven't thought about it too much. Every story
that I start always starts with the person. There's
always a character that I have in mind. So that's
how Bran's daughter started. That's how Gita
herself started. She kind of... was a force unto
her own, so to speak. And so every story I start
has to start with a person. And the Viking age
is so rich with stories and people and, you know,
fictional or otherwise. There's so much opportunity
there to tell stories of humanity. And I feel
very much that, you know, Rand's Daughters is
a story of Ambition and the cost of ambition,
the cost of, you know, making decisions that
are not the best for you, but you think they
are. I'm really trying not to spoil too much.
But yeah, so the cost of ambition is definitely
Rand's Daughters. And I would say that a lot
of the stories that I want to tell have to do
with like that kind of a of emotion or archetype.
I wrote an urban fantasy a few years ago that
was very much based on guilt and what happens
to a person when they can't escape a crushing
sense of guilt and how does that manifest in
their choices. And the Valkyrie book is very
much about anger, anger and grief. And what do
you do? um as a response to that kind of extreme
anger and grief and so I think any any book or
any story that I would tell further on in the
Viking age or or in any part of the medieval
period which is you know where most of my passion
lies for sure um I would want to explore that
kind of emotion those difficult things about
being human and and the choices that we make
as a result. That's really great to hear because
that just has echoes of every good, really good
best -selling author out there. They have such
a strong connection to their characters, not
just the time or the context of the geographical
setting. It just is the people, it's the characters
that drive their story arc. And that's one thing
I remember learning very early on in my creative
writing degree about. It's the characters that
drive the story because quite often you have
to start in the middle of something because then
you want to find out what happens next but then
you have to learn what happened before and time
jumps there but it's why kind of like reading
sometimes I come across historical fiction that
was written decades ago and it's such a slower
pace compared to the historical fiction of today.
There was one book that I started on my very
recent family holiday called Jorvik actually.
Just saying, there is another one out there called
the Orbeck. Nothing to do with Valkyries in the
mountains of Northumbria. but it was it was almost
too slow and the narration jumped about so quickly
within the same paragraph it just almost made
me feel dizzy and so I put it down and I picked
another one more modern one I thought yes this
is it it's like us basically it keeps me in the
page if he's been wanting to say more it's always
interesting I do find it interesting how the
way we tell stories has changed especially in
the context of historical fiction because for
those of us who have read Lord of the Rings we
all know how much many pages they're devoted
to describing a forest or a footpath or the sunrise
or the rain but that's because they had nothing
else to do back then but read books there wasn't
that much TV around. I mean there is there is
a sort of degree of escapism in any story and
particularly in historical fiction people pick
it up because they want to be transported. They
want to time travel. They want to be in that.
At least that's how it is for me. I want to time
travel. I want to be in these places and meet
these people and experience these events. And
yeah, those stories have their place. Those older
books had their place and their day. I think
that the way that we tell stories will always
continue to change, and especially with the rise
of AI storytelling, which as an author myself,
I feel very conflicted about it as a storyteller.
I don't know if I necessarily like machines telling
stories for me. However, it's about how people
consume. I would say, you know, how people consume
their stories, how people look for that escape,
how people look to time travel or to experience
things that they don't experience in their own
life. And I don't think that will ever change.
You know, we as human beings crave stories. We
tell stories to each other, to ourselves. We
consume stories from others and all around us.
And that will always be that will always be the
case. That is superbly put. I applaud that sentiment
entirely because that is, but I'm sure many other
listeners and viewers who are readers, who are
bookworms will just like, their hearts will beat
well with that statement. It was beautifully
put and very well explained. I can't really talk
more about Ramsdorch, it's not spoiling it for
everyone, so everyone go away and read it and
then let me know and then we can talk about it.
um because it is a real it's just phenomenal
it is really phenomenal and I wish you best of
luck with the next one because I can't wait to
see what more your talent will produce it's just
going to be amazing thank you so much I will
I will absolutely keep you updated Well, you've
mentioned my cat -knit word of Valkyries, so
I'm definitely going to be messaging you after
this recording saying, tell me, tell me more,
tell me all your secrets. I shall divulge all
the secrets. You don't have to, you don't have
to, could you say, Rebecca, shush, I'm editing.
But another thing we've also got quite in common
that I will just plug away, I love to mention
it, is we are both on the Vikings of Valkyries.
which is an actual play D &D style tabletop roleplay
game, although virtual top roleplay game led
by the master ingenious that I call Mr. Vikingverse,
otherwise known as Ian Stewart Sharp. Excellent,
excellent. Caitlin represents Guido very well.
I got very strong Guido vibes from your character
in that. I'm pretty sure you used the name as
well, didn't you? Yes, we did. We did. A modernized,
futuristic, different type of Gita Fiskvi, but
all the swearing and bloodshed was there. I mean,
that's the other thing you need to go and buy
this book, dear everyone. It's got the... best
Norse oaths and curses and just oh it it gives
you it gives it gives kind of like life to swearing
again instead of just all these technology it
was just just just just don't have the power
just have the power i have to say i have to say
that was another really fun part of writing this
book was coming up with all of the crazy swear
words it was so much fun I mean I'll always remember
and I think it was under the much late and missed
Robert Lowe's book. I'm sure he wrote the words
Odin's beard and Thor's hairy balls or someone
did. But those words have always stuck in my
head ever since as expletives that a Northman
would say. It might even have been Giles. I'm
not entirely sure. Someone... Sounds like Giles.
It probably was Giles. But yes, do go check out
both me, myself and Caitlin. We're in separate
episodes, alas, because of timing and issues
in the way cast members joined and then left.
That's all I will say on that one. But yes, it's
a sci -fi, biking -esque... adventure with the
most, and I quote a reviewer, the most hapless
group of heroes you could ever meet. And me and
Caitlin are one of those. We're not one of the
main three, but we tag along and have fun for
the ride. It was excellent. I should, I want
to plug one more. One of the main three in the
Vikings and Valkyries podcast, CJ Adrian. His
new book just came out today, so I want to say
congratulations CJ! Yes, congratulations CJ,
otherwise known as Grofgar, the Magnificent.
May he forever live on riding his giant sea worm
into the sunset at the end. Spoiler alert, sorry.
But yes, he is phenomenal. I've got his books
on my Kindle to read. I've got so many on my
Kindle to read, as well as on my shelf to read.
I have no time to read, but my kid is going to
school soon, so maybe I will have time to read.
But yes. So that's a wonderful recap and roundup
of everything Nordic between me and Caitlin and
anything else in between. There is lots, there
is lots because we're often messaging each other
outside of podcasting. Yes we are definitely.
Oh have you seen this and have you seen this
and it's awesome because we have a connection.
we have lost hearts, so it's all good. Oh, but
I know it, but the time's no different, and we
are doing this in the evening, and we are both
mums, so I will let you go back to your sleep
so you can have dreams, so that talent can be
bright and fresh for the mornings, editing, and
so on. But last but not least, ladies and gentlemen,
please do go by, Rems Daughters, out now, in
all good book shops, libraries. online, offline,
outland entertainment. Go buy it. You will not
regret it. It is stunning. And if not, rewind
and read it and to be reading the excellent prologue.
Thank you so much, Caitlin, for joining me on
this month's episode of Valhalla Conversations
podcast. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure
talking to you. I can't wait to come back on
again. I'm sure we will find something, because
we have had you on before, back in episode eight,
I think maybe episode five, when we reviewed
Ragnarok, the Netflix TV series. Yes, yes, that
was so much fun. That was a really interesting
conversation with some great people. Yes, that
was, it was an amazing trilogy. And again, please
viewers and listeners. Go watch, go watch Ragnarok,
you won't regret it. It's Norse mythology done
properly without the Marvel magic. In terms of
coming up, viewers and listeners, for episode
18, we did have a guest. He's unfortunately had
to pull out. So I am now trying to lure, recruit,
trap someone else to come on for episode 18 in
August. If not, we do have more episodes definitely
booked in for September, October and November.
I just need to fill December. So we're nearly,
we're nearly completing a full year of podcasts.
So I do hope you can subscribe wherever you're
listening or watching today and continue along
and return and join me in my humble bell hole
where we talk all things North. Thank you once
again, Caitlin. It has been amazing. Thank you
so much. Thank you very much for listening to
this episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions
between my special guests and myself. Please
do check out the episode blurb for links to their
works and websites. If you liked this episode,
let me know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me
know if you learned something new in the comments.
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