Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,
otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am
a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the
history, culture and mythology of the Viking
Age and I have been on an endless quest for more
ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North
with those who have been inspired by Viking Age
history and North mythology in their creative
works or those who have studied the sagas and
archaeology and review. how such subjects are
being presented to modern audiences today. If
you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla
and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome,
everyone, to the Valhalla Conversation podcast
episode 16. And this month, I'm delighted to
welcome a previous guest to the podcast. She
joined us on our big panel, though we reviewed
the Ragnarok Netflix TV series. But I'm delighted
to welcome back author Genevieve Kornishek. Welcome,
Genevieve. Hello. Thank you so much for having
me back. The Ragnarok episode was so much fun.
So I highly recommend anybody who hasn't. Watched
a list of that episode to go back and do it because
it was a great. It was a great episode and a
great show. Oh Yes, absolutely. I second and
third and fourth that Absolutely, and because
it was a wonderful and of course, it was the
first time we had you on I've got something more
personally and that was just before your second
book came out which was the Weaver and the Witch
Queen if I'm not turning it into my virtual background.
It is in all its beautiful glory. I will have
it popping up on the screen more graphically.
It belongs in a Viking hall. But before that
one you also wrote The Witch's Hat. So I guess
we'll start off with the first book first because
that makes sense. Now to give a kind of a brief
insight for readers it follows your retelling
of a character often overlooked and often forgotten
in North mythology. Although it's kind of an
interesting blend of two characters, some would
say, which is Angroboda, which was a giantess
that Loki had an affair with and had his monstrous
children with, of Hel, Fenrir and Jormungand,
but also of an even older female character from
the pantheon called Gullveig, otherwise known
as the golden shining one. So I guess where Did
you begin when you first decided to tell the
story of these two characters? So it was actually
during a Norse mythology course at my university.
I remember very distinctly my professor saying
something during one of our classes. wouldn't
it be fascinating if there was one big scary
lady lurking behind all of the other big scary
ladies in this mythology? And like, you know,
my brain just like turned on. I was like, oh,
wouldn't that be great? And wouldn't that be
a great novel? And I ended up writing my term
paper on this exact topic, like trying to connect
Angarboda to like these other mysterious female
figures. But I really couldn't have taken that
past like a term paper, right? Like there's not
a ton of evidence. It's just kind of a cool what
if, you know? But it would make a good book,
right? So at the same time I was writing that
term paper in November of 2011, I decided to
do this silly little thing called NaNoWriMo.
To anybody who doesn't know, it's a writing challenge
of sorts where writers from all around the world
decide that we hate ourselves enough to try to
write 50 ,000 words during the month of November.
So I finished the first draft of The Witch's
Heart in three weeks, in November of 2011. Gosh,
I salute you. Thank you. Thanks. So what made
you decide to... pick the two characters of Angroboda
and Gulveg and almost blend them into one identity
because that's what emerges for those who read
the book and that's not displaying it too much
in that she has one if you meet her in one identity
and then you discover that actually she's got
this older identity that even she has almost
forgotten about. Right. So that also stems back
from that day in class, because we were talking
about all of the different female figures in
Norse mythology who we sort of don't know anything
about, but they have these little attributes
in common, right? So I ended up combining Angrboda
with a total of four different figures. But you're
right, Gulvig is the big one that I've combined
her with. And granted, there's Sorry about the
jingling in the background, if you can hear it.
That is my cats. There's a lot more evidence
to suggest that Freya was Gulveig and not Agrabota,
but again, it was a cool kind of like, what if,
right? So I just kind of went with it because
I thought it would make a great story. Interesting.
That is really surprising. I have read in the
multiple non -fiction books I have read on the
mythology that kind of like... Freya has been
associated with Gulbeg because of course her
ability with cedar magic and I really quite like
that relationship that you explore, that connection
although there is a relationship of sorts. Yes.
An amicable one. But there is a complex relationship
between these two female figures and their power
because they all seem to eventually get drawn
towards Odin because of course Odin is the power
hungry god not that many people in modern society
recognize him as such but he is he just wants
to know everything wants to know everyone wants
to do everything including what the women do
because cedar magic as we both know is a feminine
art form of talent and quality and prophecy and
that kind of thing so how much research did you
go into did he go into big deep dive into either
of these characters or did you just kind of skim
the surface and then take bits? Um it was really
it was really based like on the Eddas. I purposely
avoided reading any sort of fiction about Norse
mythology or any any sort of retellings besides
Kevin Crossley Holland's retelling which remains
my favorite um and and I just didn't want to
be influenced by anybody else's ideas because
And you probably are very familiar with this,
but there's a lot of Norse inspired novels out
there, including my own, that do take some liberties.
And I didn't wanna like accidentally, you know,
kind of like absorb somebody else's idea and
use it in my own stuff because I wanted to be
able to trace everything that I was doing back
to the Eddas and say, here is why I made this
decision, here is why I made that decision. So
yeah, my research basically was kind of the Eddas.
And then once the Witch's Heart, sold to Penguin
Random House in the U .S. and Titan Books in
the U .K. and it was, you know, about to be published
and I had to revise. That's when I kind of did
like a deeper dive, you know, like looking up
like different scholarly articles, rereading
the Eddas and really just trying to like get
my ducks in a row. Some of the ducks would not
stay in the row, but yeah, it's no easy task
revising something that you wrote 10 years prior.
Well, it's come out as a really truly wonderful
book and I think it started off with that what
-if moment because I think that's the only way
we can really get deeper into these characters
and their origins. As you say, there's little
bits of them, we don't have the full picture
by any means. One thing I keep coming across
again and again in my research, especially with
female figures from the pantheon both as the
goddesses, but of course the giantesses like
Agraboda, the great vulva of all, which is called
Heyde, even kind of like the prophetess, the
vulva that tells Odin about how everything's
going to end in fire and doom and Ragnarok and
things like, we don't know how she became who
she was, but we've got the backstory. Whereas
all the male gods just have all these great adventures.
It's like this is how it looks for the women.
Right. I think I actually combined Angra Bodo
with six characters, now that you mention it.
Because I wasn't counting the cirrus from the
Cirrus of Prophecy. Yes, you're right now. I
remember that. And the cirrus from Baldur's Dreams.
So I combined her with Gulveig, Hade, Hyrukyn,
Hidla. and the theorists and the other theorists
so yes to combine her with six so she's seven
women in one but if my argument at the time was
you know odin has all these different names why
can't a woman have all these different names
that is a really really good point that is a
very good point and it's certainly not one it's
certainly not an argument i've come across before
and i thought i thought this is why i find not
just retellings that you and many other authors
do both kind of like in non -fiction as in kind
of like purposefully re -translating the Edders
or exploring them in fiction universities, which
are outside of the Edders, but kind of exploring
your thought process and how you got to that
idea in the first place. It just shows what we're
lacking. But also, I think I've said this in
several episodes now, it's kind of like the boon
and the curse of Norse mythology. The fact that
we have these puzzle pieces missing, it means
that we can play with them. very figuratively
literally by inserting well it could be this
or it could be that because there isn't anyone
around today of course there's no there's no
definitive book saying no this did not happen
it was so and so who did this and it was so and
so who did that whereas it is like that with
a lot of mythologies and pantheons to do with
other belief systems or just general folklore
etc etc etc right um so yeah it's it's fascinating
It is and that's that's kind of why I was as
Straightforward as I possibly could be in the
appendix of the witch's heart when I'm talking
about all the different figures because that
is like the objectively with what the edits say
like that is You know not something I made up.
That's that's what we have of these of these
people because I you know, the last thing I want
to do is like try to rewrite the canon right
because the witch's heart literally was meant
as a what if it's not supposed to be like actually
Norse mythology was really this way it's just
like here is one of the ways that that the Norse
mythology could be um because I and I'm sorry
if I've you've heard me say this before I've
said it a million times but like if you gave
a thousand different writers the task of writing
Angkor Wat a story you're gonna get a thousand
different stories and mine is just one of them
No, you haven't said that before, and that's
entirely true. And that is really quite what
sums up the whole subgenre of Norse fantasy.
They're all retellings, unique. I've never come
across any one story that is even close to the
next one, even though there are loads of stories
about Loki, of course, being the hero of the
21st century. Absolutely. But they're all distinctly
different. They may all be... charming and witty
but every Loki has subtle undertones of something
else that make instinct not just in like is the
aesthetics but just his actual personality and
absolutely the wonder of the imagination it's
just a huge mirror that can reflect so many different
ideas around. And it's so fascinating to me that
so many authors have these different takes on
figures like Loki. But there are those common
threads where you do recognize this character,
even though the authors put their own spin on
it. And sometimes, sometimes, their interpretation
doesn't vibe. And that's OK. I'm sure that there's
plenty of people who picked up my books and got
a few pages in and was like, this is not for
me. This is not my Loki. This is not my Norse
mythology. And that's OK. I've done the same
thing with other people's books. So it's every
single person that's going to have their own
unique take on these things. And that's what's
really cool about writing in this genre. I think
there's an episode that will have dropped already
when this episode drops on my channel, where
I spoke to a wonderful storyteller called, oh
my gosh. I can't believe I've forgotten his name.
I apologize. I'm going to say it's not Jacob.
It's Jason Buck. Apologies, Jason. I will remember
your name. I knew it began with a J. That was
so close. Because he himself doesn't quite do
retellings, he almost takes elements and aspects
of Norse folklore and sometimes a bit of the
mythology and makes his own original stories.
And he told a wonderful one. That was kind of
like a warrior hero going off against the odds.
It was a female warrior going off against the
odds. And instead of having an element of Odin
or Loki getting involved, there was an element
of Freya getting involved. It was amazing. Oh,
excellent. I'll have to check this out. He's
told the whole story on his YouTube channel.
I will put the links below and I will email them
to you before this one goes out. It's in two
parts. But yeah, it was really wonderfully told.
And I thought that's just so inspired to hear
anyone tell a new story about Freya. But that
felt so fitting and yeah. Fantastic. What I was
trying to tell, say originally, was when I was
speaking to Jason about this, was that we both
agree that kind of because of these gaps that
we can fill with our own imagination and interpretation
of creativity, it helps the pantheon and the
characters always reflect what issues, what's
going on in our society and our modern mentality
today. It's why it's existed for so many centuries.
It's not become dated, it's not become old, it's
not become fiction such as old old days way like
kind of the victorians or the shakespeare age
has absolutely always moved on even though it's
not quite an era like the victorians and shakespeare
but that that's that's another way of describing
it i suppose right yeah absolutely so loki does
of course feature in the witch's heart because
he does have a relationship with angry boda um
but i really quite liked the way you explored,
if not enlightened for me at least, his connection
with the aspect of Gulveg Haid and finding her
heart, the witch's heart, because it was an aspect
of that character and her story that I'd never
actually come across before. So only kind of
like when I did later, he's like, oh yeah, he
does actually mention he finds a heart and like,
oh, that's actually, it's such a strange narrative
element to have existed for so long, just out.
on its own with no wider context. And so I really
liked how you explored that in this narrative
as well. Thank you. So which is your first book?
I'm guessing so. It was not the first book that
I wrote. It was the third book that I... Third
or fourth? Third. I think it was the third book
that I ever wrote. When I was in high school
and my first few years at university, I was working
on a vampire series. We're talking this was like
2008 to 2011. I started that in 2006. So it was...
the heyday of vampires, right? Well, one of the,
hopefully they're coming back, but one of the
big eras of vampire fiction. So I was working
on this vampire series, and then I kind of stopped
to write The Witch's Heart in the middle of that.
I was so productive as an undergrad. I wish I
could have the same production level as I did
in my early 20s. But yeah, so I wrote those two
books, then I wrote The Witch's Heart, and then
I wrote two more books of another series that's
kind of like an urban fantasy, but Valkyries.
I don't know if it's ever going to see the light
of day, but it was a ton of fun. I might go back
to work on that one day. If they got published,
Genevieve, I would buy them. Anything with Valkyries
gets my money because that's my catnip. Thank
you. They were very, very, very silly. And they
were both also NaNoWriMo novels in 2013 and 2015.
I wrote those. NaNoWriMo is like a hit or miss
with me. Like every other year I tend to finish
it. Yeah, so I wrote those two. And when I was
trying to get an agent, a literary agent, those
were the first things I tried when I was querying.
The Vampire series, no go. And then the Valkyrie
series, no go. And I was like, OK, you know what?
I've got The Witch's Heart in my back pocket.
It's technically part of The Vampire series,
but I revised it to be a standalone for publication,
which is why it was like seven years before I
tried to even publish The Witch's Heart. I just
kind of sat on it for that time. And how did
you find the whole process of seeking publication?
It was difficult. Yeah, it took, I started in
2013 trying to get published with the Vampire
book and then I wrote the Valkyrie book, but
2013 to 2018 I was sending out you know, dozens
of emails trying to get an agent. And it wasn't
until 2018 that I started even querying the witch's
heart. Because until then I was like, well, you
know, who's going to read a book like this, where
it's just this witch who's sitting in the middle
of the woods doing her own thing, hiding from
the gods, whatever. And then that's when your
Circe by Madeleine Miller came out. I was like,
okay, so maybe there is a market for this type
of thing. Yeah. But five years of trying before
I finally got anywhere, so it was tough. So how
proud were you when The Witch's Heart finally
became this beautiful edition that it is? I was
pretty proud. I was pretty proud, but it was,
you know, I was also... I was also pretty, pretty
young when I wrote it. So like the first half
of the book has been, has stayed pretty much
the same since 2011, whereas the second half
has undergone major revisions. So, which is how
it got published. And then how was it for you
kind of like promoting it, meeting readers, getting
it into bookshops, seeing it go on sale online.
So now I remember messaging you on social media
saying, I have placed it on Order of the UK,
and that it falls through. But I went to Amazon
and then it kind of... finally got started that
was wild um yeah uh it was it was interesting
debuting during um we were still in lockdown
it came out in in the in the yeah in the us it
was february of 21 and then it came out in the
uk in may of 21 uh so a lot of my stuff was virtual
um like my my launch party was virtual all my
talks were virtual i did a bunch of podcasts
recordings because virtual And it was so much
different than the Weaver and the Witch Queen
promotion. But I mean, it was a lot of fun. It
was so much fun to see how many people were touched
by this story that I had kept to myself at that
point for 10 years. I'm still overwhelmed by
the reception to this book. I never would have
guessed that this book that I wrote at university
would have so many people who love it. I feel
very fortunate and grateful. Oh, well, I'm so
pleased it has pulled off here because I personally
went through English studies with creative writing,
having the same dream of getting a book published
through my university or after university. But
procrastination is my greatest nemesis. And without
someone giving me deadlines, I will just say,
oh, I'll do it tomorrow. Oh, I'll do it tomorrow.
Oh, look, I'll finish this book. I'll just finish
this chapter up here. Oh, I'll read a comic up
here. And then eventually, I just thought, you
know what? I just can't. I lost any connection
I had with the writing that I did during that
time. And a lot of it was no space, nearly all
my poems were poetry, which was terrible poetry.
forced rhyme because I can't not rhyme. A lot
of that was north -based. There was one short
story I did in my first year which was about
a valkyrie and that kick -started what started
and eventually halted as an attempt to do a valkyrie,
not novel. She got as far as Scarborough geographically
in the book and then I stopped because I was
like I don't know how to make you fly, I don't
know how to do it. So I really, I sympathise
and empathise a lot with the struggles you face.
I also really salute you for the effort that
you did, the passion that you kept with, especially
National Novel Writing Month. It wasn't around
when I was doing my degree. Plus I don't know
if I would have actually had the patience or
stamina to do it because life, video games, films,
it was just... And having a kiddo. Oh yes, well
that definitely came along. Strangely enough,
my passions have just morphed into other things
because I've always been a reader, hence why
we're talking about your wonderful books. Reading
has kept, maintained constantly. But I went from
writing creatively, then into cosplay, and then
I'm now doing podcasting, so here we are. Awesome.
That's great. At all points I've tried to do
something else, apart from the cosplay. I couldn't
quite find the costume to do. that was suitable
for a beginner. Viking reenactment. It's basically
like a cosplay. Well we will get onto that on
that topic because I know from your social media
activity and of course on your website newsletters
that you do go to Viking festivals so please
tell us about how you got into all that because
you do go in the full costume and gear, do you
not? Yes, so I started doing Viking reenactment
In 2014, I was at my local medieval renaissance
fair. And I was walking around like in this Viking
costume that I bought off the internet, biking
costume that I bought off the internet. And I
ended up running into the local reenactment group,
which I didn't even know this was a thing. I
didn't know Viking reenactment was a thing in
the first place, which is funny because I bought
the outfit. So you would figure like there's
a reason that people had the outfits, right?
the rest was history, and I'm still with the
same group 11 years later. And I started off
really like some of my old photos, my kit was
not great. And so slowly over the years, my group
as a whole, because they started themselves at
a Renaissance fair, and they've been around for
over 20 years. And just in the past, like since
I've joined, we've gotten so much more focused
on authenticity and education rather than just
the combat, which is what a lot of groups do
really, really well. But our true passion is
talking to the public and educating about life
in the Viking age. So I do tablet weaving. I
am a terrible spinner, but I do spin for a demo.
At our last event, one of our guys was making
mail, like making the rivets, like rivet by rivet.
And there's a video, I should find it on Instagram,
I think it was just posted by the gentleman who
took, a Roman reenactor took videos of us in
that event, which was really fun. But it's great,
and the public events are great, because you
get to talk to people, and the kind of private
events are great too, because then you get to
sit down with other Viking reenactors, some of
whom are so knowledgeable, and are so willing
to share their knowledge, and it's really, every
time I go to one of those, it just fills my cup.
And what's really cool is that when I had written
The Witch's Heart, I knew a lot about the myths
and the sagas and all of that stuff, but I didn't
know a lot about material culture and daily life.
So digging into the archaeological finds and
stuff like that really helped me go back when
I was revising The Witch's Heart for publication
and kind of throwing in more little things to
make the world feel more tangible and real. So
I guess... This question I usually start with
all my guests at the start, but we'll put it
in now because it seems the right time for it.
How did you first get into, you mentioned it
was in a class about mythology, wasn't it? So
was that what first drew you into the kind of
the whole big spherical of Viking or stuff? Was
it the mythology first and then the history?
So it was the language first, weirdly enough.
So in 2010, The autumn of 2010, I had the privilege
of spending a semester in Uppsala, Sweden, going
to school, studying abroad. And while I was there,
I thought, might as well get a Scandinavian studies
minor when I go back home, right? So... The whole
reason I post to study in Sweden is because my
grandfather is from Stockholm. So I was like,
I have family and friends over there. So I had
never left the United States before. So it was
my first time abroad. And so I checked the course
catalog back at my university back back here
in the States. And the there were like two classes
offered in the Scandinavian department that semester.
And one of them was Old Norse language. And after
the first class, I was like, I am hooked. I forgot
how weird this stuff is. I'd read Norse mythology
as a kid, but never the Eddas, never the original
sources. And here we were translating the story
of Loki giving birth to a horse. And I was like,
this is amazing. And that was really my gateway
to it. So it was Old Norse. And then in that
fall, the autumn, I took the mythology course.
the spring or the winter quarter I took the Icelandic
sagas as a course. All with the same professor
who's amazing and it's her fault that I'm like
this and she knows it. Yeah it was my gateway
to all of the stuff really was through through
academia but specifically through the Old Norse
language. But it's also interesting to learn
that you do generally have family then family
connections back to Scandinavia as well. On your
side or your father's side? Oh, it's on my mother's
side. So my grandfather immigrated to the United
States from Stockholm in the 50s. And he has
since he since found out after I was even over
there that he had like family that he didn't
even know about. So I've gotten to know them.
And I made some friends over there before I even
went over through and this is going to age me
through a Star Trek Live Journal community. I
met two of my best friends in Sweden through
a Star Trek live journal community. So, yeah.
And I speak the language a little bit, but everyone
over there is so good at English that I rarely
get a chance to use it, unfortunately. Because
I know... I'm pretty sure it was you when I was...
When I was going to Norway for my debut in the
sitcom, it was in last year. Yes. I discovered
that you were going to be nearly around the same
time. Yes. I was hoping that you were staying
over, but it was those cats that they needed
you back home. Yes, it was the cats. So I let
you go back to your cats. Yes, and also, I'm
actually, thank you. I am also really glad that
that didn't work out, honestly, because in my
last few days in Norway, I did get COVID, and
I was very, very ill. um my last few days and
I I worry I'm glad that I didn't let you know
get you sick get anybody else sick so it was
fortunate but we'll we'll we'll have to meet
again some other time we will I keep I keep getting
emails from P &O cruises which is one of the
main cruise lines around the cake I think oh
come on this Norwegian pure cruise I can't afford
£899 oh oh no that's not even for the excursions
or the food or anything else I just want to win
the lottery but they don't play the lottery so
that's never going to happen either. I understand.
I'm right there with you. So do you go to reenactments
more or less around your local area where you
live or do you travel a bit further afield for
them? Have you ever been to biking festivals
in Scandinavia or Norway like that? Um, not as
a Viking. I've been to the Tumsberg Viking Festival,
which is very cute. It's in Norway, just south
of Oslo, on the western side of the fjord. And
I do go to a bunch of festivals, like around...
I live in the midwestern United States, and so
there's a bunch of little festivals happening
all around here that I go to. I would love to
go to more festivals in Europe, though. So, one
day, hopefully. You need to come over and join
me for the Yorvik Biking Festival. Yes! The dream!
The dream! If I had a spare room, I would happily
put you up. I just can't afford the flight costume.
I completely understand. Totally understandable.
Well, one day. We will make it happen one day.
I am always there, often alone, because I'm an
independent... North person because not many
people in my immediate family or friends or even
my mom friends kind of like know anything about
this as a subject like one of my friends mom
friends asked me like who is Thor and how do
we know about it and I was like that's two really
big questions there and talk just give me an
hour yes yes oh my gosh like when I when I sat
down to write the appendix for the witch's heart
I literally was sitting there I was just like
who is Thor how do I explain Thor from scratch
you know like oh so i get it uh but it just shows
how kind of like it's almost kind of like almost
there's like a to go harry potter -esque with
a metaphor for example kind of like there's muggles
and then there's wizards there's people who know
about this north stuff and the people who do
not know about this north stuff i mean bless
my mom she's she's often been with me to the
orbit bike festival she was first person who
went along through a lot the finalist and as
I grew up I just went on my own or made friends
they went um there was another podcaster from
the America that used to come over a couple of
years before Covid but he's sadly we lost touch
and these podcasts seems to have halted so I
don't know what's quite happened to him but he
used to be a regular companion of mine. But I
know this year I brought her out to the finale
event just before her 70th birthday. Even just
as she's turning 70, she's still supporting me,
even though she's really kind of like into it
as much as I do. But she appreciates the experience
and being part of me and my geeky life, really.
It's great. So you've got the witch's heart under
your belt. You've got reenactment now in your
life, fulfilling that circle. So then the next
book came along. this beauty here the witcher
the weaver and the witch queen i always get the
middle box but it's the weaver and the witch
queen it's true as a title it's lovely i it's
like they both have a work sound in them and
i really like they're kind of like the asymmetry
between the two books um and of course beautiful
kind of like not almost celtic but not celtic
i love it i love that cover i love that cover
so much yes They've both got really good covers,
really good covers. So do you would like to tell
our viewers and listeners about who features
in the Weaver and the Witch Queen? Like who is
the Weaver? Who is the Witch Queen and why? The
Weaver and the Witch Queen is a more fantastical
reimagining of the origin story of Gunnhild Mother
of Kings, who was a Queen of Norway in the early
10th century, who in a lot of the sources about
her is vilified due to doing villainous things.
Oh, um, but she's so fun. And, you know, on my,
like, I think, second reading of Eos Saga, which
is one of the more famous medieval Icelandic
sagas, um, she is the arch nemesis of the main
character, Eos Scott Paggrímsson. So, and that,
I'm sorry, I just butchered that. So sorry, I
can pronounce it in my head, but it doesn't always
come out right. I mean, I say it in a very anglicized
way, you say it in a beautiful English way. Yeah,
she ends up being the lifelong antagonist of
this famous saga hero who's known for how brutal
he is. And so she's a heck of a girl. But I noticed
in all her sources that she never speaks with
another woman, really. because because women
don't show up a lot in the sagas and when they
when they do it's like you know these elite women
with the really strong personalities more most
often of which she is one of them but i'm like
you know what she needs two best friends so i
gave her two best friends And you tore them apart
in quite dramatic style. Yes. Yes, I sure did.
Yup. Yup. And while part of me kind of wishes
that I had just written Gunnhild's story, I really,
at the time that I wrote it, I was really wanting
to explore the lives of women who weren't elite,
who didn't have this high status. So the other
point of view character in the book, Opney, is
she's just a regular farm girl. her family's
poor. And after a raid, she and Gunhilda are
brought back together and kind of having to deal
with the aftermath of everything that has happened.
And their goal is to rescue their kind of third
sister, Signe, who was captured during the raid
and enslaved. So, yeah, it's a... Yep, I... It
was the first book I ever wrote under contract,
which means that I didn't have the book written
first, like before it was picked up for publication.
Interesting. Let me tell you, it was really nice,
which is part of having, you know, seven years
to kind of tinker with it versus being on that
tight deadline. and knowing that people were
going to read it. You know, I wasn't writing
it just for me. I was writing it knowing that
it was going to be published and I got, you're
really in my head about it sometimes. But overall,
I'm really proud of how it turned out. I don't
think at the time I could have done any better
than I did. So the book, it really means a lot
to me. It is, it is superbly written and you
can really see how you've kind of like gone up
another level with your storytelling from the
witch story. Thank you. Thank you so much. That
means so much to me. Thank you for saying that.
Well, it is. It's such an immersive world and
I really like how you've not just focused on
Gunnhild as the queen as she is in all the sagas,
but the life she had before she's the queen,
like why she became the infamous queen of villainy.
And that's not even... Sorry, go on. Didn't mean
to interrupt. Go on. So actually, I am working
on a sequel that I don't know if it will be published.
by my publishers, but it's going to be published
somehow. And then I really wanted it to be a
trilogy. So it gets more villainous kind of as
the third book really is going to be like her
corruption arc the way I have it planned. But
you see the seeds in the Weaver and the Witch
Queen of like, you know, she doesn't always make
the best decisions. And that's what I really
enjoy about her. Like in the sources, you know,
I wanted people who didn't know who she was to
read the Weaver and the Witch Queen and say,
well, I want to know more about her. And people
who did know who she was to be like, you know,
I can see her turning into the person she becomes
in the sagas. As I mentioned earlier, you've
found that gap in the jigsaw and you've made
a shape that fits it perfectly to bridge the
gap between what we know and what we don't know.
And of course, you mentioned kind of like the
other protagonists, Zigni and Ogni, but there's
also lots of other amazing, fascinating female
characters in there, like the original Bolver.
the old witch that teaches Goodhild her magical
ways, then you've got enemy witches who are just
like, wow, witches versus witches, that was amazing.
Yes, thank you. But then of course you explore
the aspect of gender identity and fluidity as
well. So you kind of like, you cover all the
different aspects of being a woman, both as a
woman and a woman wanting, a woman who... feels
deep down that she is someone else, not who she's
born as kind of thing. And I mean, I still quite
like the character that was the tattooist, because
of course you introduced the idea of tattoos,
which I know you explained kind of like in, I
think in yours, there's that kind of like historical
evidence for it, because of course skin, not
much skin is kept apart from the skin that's
in it. I think it was a cathedral that's been
pinned to a door from when they... but barricaded
loads of Vikings in but I've got no sign that
he's on. But I just like the idea because of
course kind of like artistic stuff like that
was probably not a man thing, it might have been
a woman thing, but again it might have been.
No one else can tell me otherwise because no
one really knows. Like, I really wanted to explore
the different ways that women could have agency
in the Viking Age, apart from being a warrior,
which is something we hear about all the time.
And that's amazing. I think it's wonderful that
women today are so empowered by this idea of
field maintenance. But that's not all women did
in the Viking Age. Like, that's not the only
way they could be powerful and could determine
their own fates. And that's... That was the whole
reasoning behind writing the book in the first
place is to say, you know, children are great.
But women deserve to have a choice, like in the
ways that they live their lives, even, you know,
a thousand years ago. Yeah, absolutely. You've
you've really touched on all bases because there's.
There's there's a mother. Well, not a mother.
Is there a stepmother figure? I can't remember
if she's a stepmother, but there's a kind like
the woman that. when Gunnhild goes with Eric,
once she's met up with Eric. Oh, Gita. Gita,
yeah. Gita, yes. She's kind of a very dominating
figure in that household. I love her. The very
hardest to please type. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, yes.
That's not quite the kind of like typical fairy
tale villainous stepmother, but you can kind
of get the same vibes and get that tricky relationship
and dynamic going on. Right. But when you do
get women who want to obviously be, get their
independent selves in their own right and not
have it given to them by men, then there is going
to be that clash because it's almost like a power
of hierarchy, like who can be more higher up?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. But yeah, it's full
of wonderful characters and I do encourage all
readers in this list to go buy it, download it,
listen to it. Is it an audiobook as well? It
is, yes. Yes, great. Yes, go get the audiobook
as well. If anybody has listened to the audiobook
for A Fate Inked in Blood by Danielle Jensen,
which is also like a Norse adjacent sort of fantasy
book, it's the same narrator, Nina Indes, and
she is Norwegian. So she does a wonderful job.
I've got that book on my to read list that I
haven't yet read yet. I've got holiday coming
up, so hopefully I might get time to read it.
She says, I'm guessing she's got a four and a
half year old. Is she four and a half already?
Oh my gosh. Time flies. I remember, gosh, we've
been mutuals on Twitter for a really long time.
I literally remember you announcing her birth.
Man, I can't believe it's been so long. Yep,
she's got school groups in September, so hopefully
I'll get some reading time back. Thank you. Which
you'll see, hopefully, hopefully she'll settle
in well. She's a firecracker in her own right.
She, she really is. I mean, like we, the attitude
we give her sometimes comes back at us out of
her mouth and it's just hilarious. Oh my gosh.
But yes, but yes, they're two really wonderful
books. And of course, I must obviously explore
how you interpreted Eric Bloodaxe, yet to be
named Bloodaxe in this book. Because of course
he is equally a part of Gunnhill's story. If
there is one, they're very much two halves of
the same whole. You can't have his story without
Gunnhill's and you can't have Gunnhill's without
his story. It's Eric and Gunnhill's. My ride
or die, my favorite historical couple, I'm obsessed
with them. Obsessed. So would you like to give
our readers a kind of a brief recount of who
Eric Bloodaxe is and why he's significant in
Gunnhill's story? Yes, so Eric Bloodaxe, is the
second king of Norway. He is the favorite son
of Harald Fairhair, who is a legendary king who
unified the country in the late 9th century.
And Erik being named King Harald's successor
ruffled a lot of feathers, because King Harald
famously had many other sons with many other
women. And upon his death, uh circa well he okay
so according to the story thrills since heimskringle
which is the main source that i kind of used
for this book even though there are other norwegian
mainland sources that kind of talk about uh the
the formation of norway and eric bloodaxe and
all that stuff i just think the icelandic versions
are like so much more um gosh They read more
like stories instead of histories, right? Snoring
does a really good job of like pulling you into
the story. And yeah, a lot of it is probably
BS, but like he's a fan fiction writer and I'm
writing fan fiction of his fan fiction. So like
that is what it is. So King Harald's hands it
over power to Eric circa 930. And then when he
died, circa 933, Eric and Gunnhild really only
ruled for like two years before they were ousted
by Eric's youngest brother, Håkon, who was fostered
in England with King Applestan. And then he comes
and he ousts Eric and Gunnhild. And there's a
couple different origin stories for Gunnhild.
One was that she was a Danish princess, one of
the daughters of King Gorm the Old of Denmark.
And the other one was that she was a sorceress
from Hallogaland, which is the story that I went
with in The Weaver and the Witch Queen because
witches, right? And story gives us this whole
story about how they meet. And he, Eric is doing
his Viking raiding thing in the north of what
is now like Northwestern Russia. And then on
his way back, There's a whole story there with
the Sami, and it's kind of offensive, so I changed
it. And that's how he meets Gunhild up in Finnmark
in northern Norway, and he brings her south with
him, and they get married. And a lot of the reason
that she is vilified, before she even does anything,
before she even does anything questionable, is
just because she had such a dominating personality.
I mean, like, if your name is Erik Bloodaxe,
and you're telling your wife to pump the brakes
on the murder, Like, what is that telling you
about this woman? Like, it's just amazing. So
like, I, you know, one of the reasons that they
were kind of vilified from the outset is that
people didn't like Gunhild. Like, they didn't
like Eric because he was going around killing
his brothers, but they also didn't like Gunhild
because she was such a force of nature. And again,
this was before she even did anything bad. So,
and that's kind of how. Like, their story starts.
And then after fleeing Norway, they kind of bopped
around the Orkneys and the British Isles, like,
making trouble, until King Applestan was finally
like, can you guys stop if I give you some land
in North Umbria? Like, will you just stop? You
could take Jorvik. Just stop with the raiding.
And they were like, cool. So they ruled in Jorvik
for a time until Erik was killed in battle in
954. It was an ambush of some sort, I believe.
So now, of course, he is famously the original
logo, if not face, of the Orbit Viking Center
when it first opened. With its 40th anniversary,
they've brought some retro looks back of kind
of a bearded Viking, obviously without the horned
helmet. And he also had a coin minted at York.
And I have many replicas of that coin. Yeah,
so that's one of the many reasons I would like
to go to the Yorvik Viking Festival one day Just
because like that has a special significance
like in the story of Erik and Gunnhild and there's
a really hidden There's a really funny funny
kind of like anecdote in Aeol's saga about what
happens when Aeol Scott La Grimson meets Erik
and Gunnhild in York. He shipwrecked He already
has a feud with them and there's just a whole
like story that cracks me up that happens in
York in Yorvik. So yeah That's the one much praised
poem to try and save his head. Yes, yes. If I
remember, Gunnhill supposedly blamed us shapeshifting
into a bird or something to try and disturb him
so he doesn't get a good sleep, so we can't write
a good poem. Yes, exactly, exactly. My favourite
part, and that is why Gunnhill, her witch. form
in The Weaver and the Witch Queen is a swallow,
which is also on the cover of the book. That's
from that story, from the anecdote. And my favorite
part of that, my absolute favorite part of that
story is, you know, Arne Bjorn, who has kinship
ties to Ayl. Arne Bjorn, Erik's foster brother,
who followed Erik and Gunnhilde after they left
Norway. He walks in, he's like, Ayl, like, how's
the poem going, buddy? And he's like, It would
be going better if this stupid bird wasn't yapping
at the window all night and breaking my concentration.
And Arndt Bjorn chases the bird away and sits
out there all night so it doesn't come back.
And that just cracks me up. I picture Arndt Bjorn
just casing her away with the broom and then
just being like, don't come back. It just cracks
me up. The sagas are so unintentionally funny
sometimes, or maybe it was intentional, I don't
know. Sorry, I'm rambling, but I love that story
so much. No, no, it's absolutely all good. You
know, I ramble a lot myself. As long as it's
Viking stuff, I'm happy to just sit in this and
it's all good. And yet there is a wonderful rich,
as you say, and we're pushing it, a lot of history
behind these two characters. And again, it's
nice to come across historical fiction that touches
on these kings and queens and princesses and
of course women of Scandinavia because there's
loads of historical fiction written about them,
many many many kings and queens of England. There's
only a couple I know of that even touch on Queen
Emry and Canute. They're my two favorite kind
of like superheroes, celebrity, historical king
and queen because they're both equally as dynamic
as Eric in Good Hills without the villainy of
course. But yes, they were amazing. So it's nice
to actually touch on the origins of how Norway
grew into Norway because of course so many people
forget that Scandinavia was as fractured as Anglo
-Saxon England was. There were so many feuding
kings and queens and kings and princes and tribes
and clans and whatnot. Because I do remember
I think the first time I came across Good Hills
and Eric in Fiction was certainly with Eric Schumacher's
Hack on the Good trilogy which explored a whole,
well, it was a trilogy about Hack on the Good
growing up. Oh! Yeah! I'm not familiar with that,
that's awesome! Yeah, yeah, he's also done a
trilogy about Olaf Trigbysen as well, or who
would be coming with it to say Olaf. There's
a lot of Olaf's in Norse history. It's confusing
at times. Yes, but the Hack on the Good trilogy
was good, especially because of course he can't
grow up as a Christian and he's coming back to
a country that's predominantly pagan and because
I remember reading about him briefly in non -fiction
stuff and hearing about how kind of like how
he upset a lot of the yowls and the goatee at
the time because he wouldn't let the meat horse
meet certain vegetables because of course it
was just he he really explores the dynamic and
the challenges both kind of like on the surface
and below the surface between not just Hakon
and Eric rumbling around each other trying to
keep hold of the same crown but also that clash
of religions and society and trying to keep peace
when everyone's got different opinions and things.
So I would recommend that series if anyone's
interested. That's awesome. I have to ask, and
I know this is going to be spoilery, so I'm sorry.
No worries. But does the trilogy end with Halkan
getting hit with an arrow? It does, yes. Oh,
ouch. And for the record, that was one of the
- It does end with his death, because he does
die from an injury from a battle. I don't think
it is... I think it's through the one he wronged.
A spear, sorry. Oh, in this case, it's an arrow
injury, I think. And that's what kills him. I
think that's what I remember. It's been a while
since I've read it. That tracks. I mention this
because one of the villainous seeds attributed
to Gunnhild is magically guiding that weapon
to hit Haokun on the battlefield because the
people that he's battling during the battle where
he is injured or dies during his final battle
are Gunnhild's sons. who have allied with the
Danes and are trying to take back over Norway.
And so after Håkon dies, Erik and Goodhold's
son Harald Greycloak becomes the King of Norway.
So that's, oh man, I want to read this trilogy
now. Oh, this is going on my TBR. Oh, I'm pleased
I can even help with it, because quite often
I don't have many people to talk to about all
the many, many, many books I read. I kind of
read them, I blog them, and then I kind of wait
until I come across another fan, basically. But
yes, there's lots. Lots indeed. I think I've
got my reviews somewhere. I'll ping them to you
on an email. But yes, definitely go look it up.
So I guess we've obviously, there's just the
hope that maybe this will become a trilogy of
books. If you could write about any other Norse
figure, historical or mythological, who do you
think it would be? I have a whole host of story
ideas that are just like percolating, and I don't
know, I can't really answer that definitively.
I will say that I did write an entire companion
novel to The Witch's Heart that is about Sigyn.
Loki's wife in Asgard. I don't know if that will
ever see the light of day, but that is something
that exists. And I'm a third of the way into
the sequel of the Weaver and the Witch Queen.
And I don't know, I have so many things already
going on, I couldn't say for sure who I would
want to write about next, just because there's
so many things already in the works. And I don't
know which one of them is gonna stick, kind of.
which is new for me. I'm used to working on just
one project at a time and being like super obsessed
with that project. So the fact that I have so
many things that I kind of started, I'm just
trying to wait to get obsessed with something,
I guess. So are there any other books or authors
that you might recommend to read some views,
listings, if they want to learn more about these
characters from history? Gunhild and of course,
Eric. Or even Angus Boder and Gullvay Cade and
that kind of jazz. I can't really think of any
besides like the original sources. Like the Edda's,
Kevin Crossley Holland's retelling is really
good. It's very thorough, which I like about
it. I used to recommend Gaiman's retelling. I
no longer do that, but it is short and sweet
and has an appropriate amount of nuance. It was
a fun little read, but I do like Kevin Crossley
Holland's version is conkier. It goes into a
little bit more detail. I really like it. I'm
just a sucker for that original poetry and prose
that story and the other anonymous authors give
us, even though it can be really hard to tackle
on your own. If you have no familiarity with
medieval sources and medieval poetry, it can
be a tough read. I'm like grateful to to people
like you who are like making these podcasts and
making content That's you know meant to educate
people about this kind of stuff. So Well, I try
many by having guests like you want because I
don't know much myself I just know what I read
and quite I quite often can't remember everything
that I read so I can just point people to books
I read that one go read this one. Yeah, but yeah,
that's that's brilliant to hear That was what
I was going to say. I think there is, I'm pretty
sure I read this somewhere, there is meant to
be a TV series meant to be being in production
somewhere in the world about Eric Ludacz. So
it remains to be seen how they portray Gunhild
and that relationship and dynamic and enlighten
her story the way you have or whether they stick
with the current conception of her as a villainous
queen. I'm excited slash nervous to see what
becomes of that show. Just because I enjoyed
it by the same guy who made Vikings, History
Channel's Vikings. And I did enjoy what I saw
of that. They play around with history a lot
and it kind of is what it is. And that show...
got so many people into this stuff and like that
cannot be discounted. I think it's really important,
that show has been really important. But I did
not watch Vikings Valhalla because I object to
Freydis Erik's daughter as like a shieldmaiden
warrior woman. Like, she's cool enough in the
saga as she is and it just like bums me out that
it just goes to, you know, I have to be very
careful about how I talk about this because my
words have been twisted before. Again, being
a shieldmaiden is not the only way to have power.
So the fact that like they made her shieldmaiden
instead of like kind of giving her the nuance
that the Vinland sagas do kind of bummed me out.
So I do worry about what they're going to do
with Goodholds, but I am excited to see the show.
How could I not watch the show, right? I know,
it's something I often find when I do speak,
especially to kind of like academics or people
who've done the research and like yourself, they
know the song, they know the language, they know
as much as we can know about what should or did
happen. They'll either watch with bated breath
and grinding teeth or they'll watch five minutes
and can't speak anymore because they're in too
much. Obviously me coming from kind of outside
of that sphere, I can have the fourth wall disbelief.
I couldn't even forget because I see the interpretation
more than the accuracy or the authenticity because
absolutely nothing's going to be entirely authentic
because it's so far removed from our past time
and culture and the importance of mind and ability
and our lifestyle and everything else. I mean,
gosh knows, if biking through around today, they
saw us all getting into cars, they would think
we'd all be eaten by mechanical things right
Jotun or something because it's just so avian
because it's just such a big bath time and that's
it's strange how we're always wanting to go Humanity
as a whole was always wanting to get back to
a time before time that is so far removed right
and I'm like even the Victorians did it with
kind of like of course and Like this great opera
most of all even though that was classical mythology.
It was a time kind of reflecting the changes
of the time coming around then but it's just
really interesting how because like as Britons
we always want to go back to the Anglo -Saxon
area kind of like every fantasy game is kind
of like an Anglo -Saxon -esque period. I won't
get into Viking games that's the whole of the
podcast episode already done and there's so many
people I could talk to about it. but yeah it's
it's interesting um so of course i will keep
an eye on it and if i hear any more rumors about
when it's coming out on what channels because
america probably will get it first so i will
let you know um hopefully it will be on netflix
and not on a on a sky channel because i don't
have sky or i think i i do believe everything
i do believe amazon is making it so i might have
to buy a free month or something. She just gives
her many email address and gets a free one. Right.
I'm going into, you know, when the show airs,
I'm going to go into it with an open mind because
I can compartmentalize things. You know, people
ask me a lot, like, what do you think of Marvel?
Marvel's Thor and Loki are like so inaccurate.
I'm like, Marvel, Thor, and Loki are not trying
to be mythology Thor and mythology Loki. Therefore,
they are fine. They are a separate thing. They
are a separate thing. And I can enjoy that. I
can watch it without my Norse mythology brain
being on. And so I'm hoping for the same thing.
And I'll probably go back and watch Vikings Valhalla
one day, too. I'll be honest. I don't like being
a hater. I like liking things. You know? That's
not the energy that I want to... bring to the
vibe. Sorry, that's not the vibe I want to bring
to the function, being a hater, you know? Well,
if you ever do get into watching Vikings for
Halle, I've also done a review panel series about
it as well. Oh really? Okay, cool. Yes, I did
it with... Some wonderful historical authors
called Patricia Bracewell and Helen Hollock.
Hello, buzzy cat. Sorry about him. It's all right.
It's fine. Cats are cats. They've written historical
fiction about Queen Emma and King Canute. We
also had Sharon Bennett Connolly, who's a wonderful
British historian who really ups. and promotes
women figures throughout history. She's done
a lot of work on Scottish queens, she's done
about women and the anarchy of women, kind of
like the different feudal queens that we've had
in our British history. I think she's got another
book coming out soon about kind of like, it's
a really long title but it's a spin on kind of
like the good, bad, mad and not good to know
but she's kind of expanded it to kind of like
not mad, not bad, but just defiant kind of thing.
Something along those lines, she's got that in
the pipeline but she's a really good one to look
at if you want to know about more powerful amazing
women in history, many British of course. But
she knows everything there is to know about Emma
and of course King Canute's travels and They're
a fine thing. And then in the later two series,
we have Justin Hill, who wrote a lot about Harold
Hadrada in historical fiction. OK. And it's an
amazing book by King Spire, because Harold Hadrada
is another epic hero of mine. Oh, yeah. Because
his life before he became Harold Hadrada is absolutely
amazing. Yes. I have his saga sitting on my TBR,
like, right over there. So yeah. But yeah, he
was just such a guy before he became the guy
that we all know him to be. And thankfully the
series does touch on that aspect of his life,
although they do of course have lots of dramatic
licenses and there is a lot of time Doctor Who
wizardry going on. Because of course Queen Emma
wasn't around when Harold Hadrada was around.
One of them was really old, one of them was a
baby historically all the way around. No, yeah,
Queen Anna was really old, Harderada was very
young. There was a prime of their life in the
series and that just doesn't add up, logically.
So, you know, wibbly wobbly timey wimey. Yes,
but they wanted to somehow touch on all these
great figures in one era instead of two. I mean,
and we say this a lot in the panel, they could
have done a series on each of the figures and
then made a huge omnibus edition more than...
Try and compact. Oh, that's exactly what Vikings
does though. Like, you know, it starts at Lindisfarne
at 793 and then before you know it a few years
later They're raiding Paris, which doesn't happen
until like the mid eight hundreds So Ragnar would
have been like a hundred when he raided Paris
But they just kind of condensed everything for
the sake of storytelling and I cannot fault them
for that They're just they're just wanting to
tell a good story I get that history if there's
one thing that I've learned in all of my research
for weaver It's that history is not always a
good story. Sometimes it kind of sucks. Yep.
Loads of boring parts where there's peace, like
a lot of Canute's Ray was peaceful. He had no
great big battles, so he became king, that was
it. Apart from sourcing out some problems, I
think it was in Norway where his brother ruled
for a time before he died. He had to sort out
that, so Emma ruled and he's dead. But I mean,
they went off to meet the Pope in Constantinople,
so not class A, but wrong time. Mother of the
Emperor, Rome even. Not Constantinople, Rome.
Further afield, Rebecca, get your job going straight.
Sorry. Yeah, but yeah, there's a lot of boring
bits and there's a lot of bits that are just
really unsatisfying too. That's like, how do
I spin this into like a satisfying ending for
the readers of this book when in history it's
not satisfying at all? Very good points. Well,
it's been amazing talking to you, Genevieve,
about everything and everything. I'm glad we've
been kind of like remote social friends all this
time because we do connect on so many levels.
We love your books, absolutely love them. Thank
you so much. I devoured them and they're gorgeous
covers and I of course wish you best of luck
in any writing products coming up, whether it's
the same characters or new ones and I look forward
to seeing what you get up to next. Thank you
so much. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Thank you for having me. You're very welcome.
And the viewers and listeners, please do subscribe
to the channel. Next month's episode will feature
another amazing author, Caitlin Felix. She's
got her debut novel out, Brands Daughters. Have
you read it yet? Yes, I beta read it. Oh, Katie's
been one of my internet friends for a long time.
So it's wonderful to see her release this book
at last. I'm still working on rereading the final
edition that just was released. It is so much
fun. I really, I really love it. It's, I think,
I can't remember what I put in my review, but
there was so much I could put in my review. Just
like a huge, huge, a huge spiel of love and affection
and admiration for how she did it. Absolutely.
I think she shows that you don't have to have
a male hero like Bernard Cornwall's Uchtwood
to have a historical adventure. You can have
it as a woman and it can still be a historical
adventure novel. Absolutely. But yes, she's coming
up, it's episode 17. Hooray! She's coming out
in August, I can't wait to talk to her about
it because I know she did send me the, I think
it was the final, the advanced readers copy version
and I devoured it like in three days, or three
nights I should say, because I just couldn't
put it down. It's wonderful. So yes, so. Please
do stay in touch dear viewers and listeners on
YouTube and Spotify whenever you're listening
and watching today and we shall see you all in
Valhalla again soon. Thank you very much. Thank
you. Thank you very much for listening. this
episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between
my special guests and myself. Please do check
out the episode blurb for links to their works
and websites. If you liked this episode let me
know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if
you learned something new in the comments and
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We hope you can join us in Valhalla again soon
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