WEBVTT

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Conversations podcast. I'm your host Becky Hill,

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otherwise known as Soul Chaser Becky and I am

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a proud Viking geek. I fell in love with the

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history, culture and mythology of the Viking

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Age and I have been on an endless quest for more

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ever since. Join me as I discuss all things North

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with those who have been inspired by Viking Age

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history and North mythology in their creative

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works or those who have studied the sagas and

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archaeology and review. how such subjects are

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being presented to modern audiences today. If

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you like Viking stuff you are welcome in my Valhalla

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and I hope you stay for the conversation. Welcome,

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everyone, to the Valhalla Conversation podcast

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episode 16. And this month, I'm delighted to

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welcome a previous guest to the podcast. She

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joined us on our big panel, though we reviewed

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the Ragnarok Netflix TV series. But I'm delighted

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to welcome back author Genevieve Kornishek. Welcome,

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Genevieve. Hello. Thank you so much for having

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me back. The Ragnarok episode was so much fun.

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So I highly recommend anybody who hasn't. Watched

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a list of that episode to go back and do it because

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it was a great. It was a great episode and a

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great show. Oh Yes, absolutely. I second and

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third and fourth that Absolutely, and because

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it was a wonderful and of course, it was the

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first time we had you on I've got something more

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personally and that was just before your second

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book came out which was the Weaver and the Witch

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Queen if I'm not turning it into my virtual background.

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It is in all its beautiful glory. I will have

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it popping up on the screen more graphically.

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It belongs in a Viking hall. But before that

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one you also wrote The Witch's Hat. So I guess

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we'll start off with the first book first because

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that makes sense. Now to give a kind of a brief

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insight for readers it follows your retelling

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of a character often overlooked and often forgotten

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in North mythology. Although it's kind of an

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interesting blend of two characters, some would

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say, which is Angroboda, which was a giantess

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that Loki had an affair with and had his monstrous

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children with, of Hel, Fenrir and Jormungand,

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but also of an even older female character from

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the pantheon called Gullveig, otherwise known

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as the golden shining one. So I guess where Did

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you begin when you first decided to tell the

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story of these two characters? So it was actually

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during a Norse mythology course at my university.

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I remember very distinctly my professor saying

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something during one of our classes. wouldn't

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it be fascinating if there was one big scary

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lady lurking behind all of the other big scary

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ladies in this mythology? And like, you know,

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my brain just like turned on. I was like, oh,

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wouldn't that be great? And wouldn't that be

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a great novel? And I ended up writing my term

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paper on this exact topic, like trying to connect

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Angarboda to like these other mysterious female

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figures. But I really couldn't have taken that

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past like a term paper, right? Like there's not

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a ton of evidence. It's just kind of a cool what

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if, you know? But it would make a good book,

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right? So at the same time I was writing that

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term paper in November of 2011, I decided to

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do this silly little thing called NaNoWriMo.

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To anybody who doesn't know, it's a writing challenge

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of sorts where writers from all around the world

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decide that we hate ourselves enough to try to

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write 50 ,000 words during the month of November.

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So I finished the first draft of The Witch's

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Heart in three weeks, in November of 2011. Gosh,

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I salute you. Thank you. Thanks. So what made

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you decide to... pick the two characters of Angroboda

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and Gulveg and almost blend them into one identity

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because that's what emerges for those who read

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the book and that's not displaying it too much

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in that she has one if you meet her in one identity

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and then you discover that actually she's got

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this older identity that even she has almost

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forgotten about. Right. So that also stems back

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from that day in class, because we were talking

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about all of the different female figures in

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Norse mythology who we sort of don't know anything

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about, but they have these little attributes

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in common, right? So I ended up combining Angrboda

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with a total of four different figures. But you're

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right, Gulvig is the big one that I've combined

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her with. And granted, there's Sorry about the

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jingling in the background, if you can hear it.

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That is my cats. There's a lot more evidence

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to suggest that Freya was Gulveig and not Agrabota,

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but again, it was a cool kind of like, what if,

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right? So I just kind of went with it because

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I thought it would make a great story. Interesting.

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That is really surprising. I have read in the

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multiple non -fiction books I have read on the

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mythology that kind of like... Freya has been

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associated with Gulbeg because of course her

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ability with cedar magic and I really quite like

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that relationship that you explore, that connection

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although there is a relationship of sorts. Yes.

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An amicable one. But there is a complex relationship

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between these two female figures and their power

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because they all seem to eventually get drawn

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towards Odin because of course Odin is the power

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hungry god not that many people in modern society

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recognize him as such but he is he just wants

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to know everything wants to know everyone wants

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to do everything including what the women do

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because cedar magic as we both know is a feminine

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art form of talent and quality and prophecy and

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that kind of thing so how much research did you

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go into did he go into big deep dive into either

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of these characters or did you just kind of skim

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the surface and then take bits? Um it was really

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it was really based like on the Eddas. I purposely

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avoided reading any sort of fiction about Norse

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mythology or any any sort of retellings besides

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Kevin Crossley Holland's retelling which remains

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my favorite um and and I just didn't want to

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be influenced by anybody else's ideas because

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And you probably are very familiar with this,

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but there's a lot of Norse inspired novels out

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there, including my own, that do take some liberties.

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And I didn't wanna like accidentally, you know,

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kind of like absorb somebody else's idea and

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use it in my own stuff because I wanted to be

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able to trace everything that I was doing back

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to the Eddas and say, here is why I made this

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decision, here is why I made that decision. So

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yeah, my research basically was kind of the Eddas.

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And then once the Witch's Heart, sold to Penguin

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Random House in the U .S. and Titan Books in

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the U .K. and it was, you know, about to be published

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and I had to revise. That's when I kind of did

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like a deeper dive, you know, like looking up

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like different scholarly articles, rereading

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the Eddas and really just trying to like get

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my ducks in a row. Some of the ducks would not

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stay in the row, but yeah, it's no easy task

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revising something that you wrote 10 years prior.

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Well, it's come out as a really truly wonderful

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book and I think it started off with that what

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-if moment because I think that's the only way

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we can really get deeper into these characters

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and their origins. As you say, there's little

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bits of them, we don't have the full picture

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by any means. One thing I keep coming across

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again and again in my research, especially with

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female figures from the pantheon both as the

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goddesses, but of course the giantesses like

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Agraboda, the great vulva of all, which is called

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Heyde, even kind of like the prophetess, the

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vulva that tells Odin about how everything's

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going to end in fire and doom and Ragnarok and

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things like, we don't know how she became who

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she was, but we've got the backstory. Whereas

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all the male gods just have all these great adventures.

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It's like this is how it looks for the women.

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Right. I think I actually combined Angra Bodo

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with six characters, now that you mention it.

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Because I wasn't counting the cirrus from the

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Cirrus of Prophecy. Yes, you're right now. I

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remember that. And the cirrus from Baldur's Dreams.

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So I combined her with Gulveig, Hade, Hyrukyn,

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Hidla. and the theorists and the other theorists

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so yes to combine her with six so she's seven

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women in one but if my argument at the time was

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you know odin has all these different names why

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can't a woman have all these different names

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that is a really really good point that is a

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very good point and it's certainly not one it's

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certainly not an argument i've come across before

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and i thought i thought this is why i find not

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just retellings that you and many other authors

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do both kind of like in non -fiction as in kind

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of like purposefully re -translating the Edders

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or exploring them in fiction universities, which

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are outside of the Edders, but kind of exploring

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your thought process and how you got to that

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idea in the first place. It just shows what we're

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lacking. But also, I think I've said this in

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several episodes now, it's kind of like the boon

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and the curse of Norse mythology. The fact that

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we have these puzzle pieces missing, it means

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that we can play with them. very figuratively

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literally by inserting well it could be this

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or it could be that because there isn't anyone

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around today of course there's no there's no

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definitive book saying no this did not happen

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it was so and so who did this and it was so and

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so who did that whereas it is like that with

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a lot of mythologies and pantheons to do with

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other belief systems or just general folklore

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etc etc etc right um so yeah it's it's fascinating

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It is and that's that's kind of why I was as

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Straightforward as I possibly could be in the

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appendix of the witch's heart when I'm talking

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about all the different figures because that

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is like the objectively with what the edits say

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like that is You know not something I made up.

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That's that's what we have of these of these

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people because I you know, the last thing I want

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to do is like try to rewrite the canon right

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because the witch's heart literally was meant

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as a what if it's not supposed to be like actually

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Norse mythology was really this way it's just

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like here is one of the ways that that the Norse

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mythology could be um because I and I'm sorry

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if I've you've heard me say this before I've

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said it a million times but like if you gave

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a thousand different writers the task of writing

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Angkor Wat a story you're gonna get a thousand

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different stories and mine is just one of them

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No, you haven't said that before, and that's

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entirely true. And that is really quite what

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sums up the whole subgenre of Norse fantasy.

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They're all retellings, unique. I've never come

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across any one story that is even close to the

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next one, even though there are loads of stories

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about Loki, of course, being the hero of the

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21st century. Absolutely. But they're all distinctly

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different. They may all be... charming and witty

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but every Loki has subtle undertones of something

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else that make instinct not just in like is the

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aesthetics but just his actual personality and

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absolutely the wonder of the imagination it's

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just a huge mirror that can reflect so many different

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ideas around. And it's so fascinating to me that

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so many authors have these different takes on

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figures like Loki. But there are those common

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threads where you do recognize this character,

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even though the authors put their own spin on

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it. And sometimes, sometimes, their interpretation

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doesn't vibe. And that's OK. I'm sure that there's

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plenty of people who picked up my books and got

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a few pages in and was like, this is not for

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me. This is not my Loki. This is not my Norse

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mythology. And that's OK. I've done the same

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thing with other people's books. So it's every

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single person that's going to have their own

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unique take on these things. And that's what's

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really cool about writing in this genre. I think

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there's an episode that will have dropped already

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when this episode drops on my channel, where

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I spoke to a wonderful storyteller called, oh

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my gosh. I can't believe I've forgotten his name.

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I apologize. I'm going to say it's not Jacob.

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It's Jason Buck. Apologies, Jason. I will remember

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your name. I knew it began with a J. That was

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so close. Because he himself doesn't quite do

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retellings, he almost takes elements and aspects

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of Norse folklore and sometimes a bit of the

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mythology and makes his own original stories.

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And he told a wonderful one. That was kind of

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like a warrior hero going off against the odds.

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It was a female warrior going off against the

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odds. And instead of having an element of Odin

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or Loki getting involved, there was an element

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of Freya getting involved. It was amazing. Oh,

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excellent. I'll have to check this out. He's

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told the whole story on his YouTube channel.

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I will put the links below and I will email them

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to you before this one goes out. It's in two

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parts. But yeah, it was really wonderfully told.

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And I thought that's just so inspired to hear

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anyone tell a new story about Freya. But that

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felt so fitting and yeah. Fantastic. What I was

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trying to tell, say originally, was when I was

00:14:17.009 --> 00:14:19.450
speaking to Jason about this, was that we both

00:14:19.450 --> 00:14:22.009
agree that kind of because of these gaps that

00:14:22.009 --> 00:14:24.529
we can fill with our own imagination and interpretation

00:14:24.529 --> 00:14:28.149
of creativity, it helps the pantheon and the

00:14:28.149 --> 00:14:31.529
characters always reflect what issues, what's

00:14:31.529 --> 00:14:34.669
going on in our society and our modern mentality

00:14:34.669 --> 00:14:37.110
today. It's why it's existed for so many centuries.

00:14:37.610 --> 00:14:40.110
It's not become dated, it's not become old, it's

00:14:40.110 --> 00:14:43.809
not become fiction such as old old days way like

00:14:43.809 --> 00:14:45.909
kind of the victorians or the shakespeare age

00:14:45.909 --> 00:14:49.029
has absolutely always moved on even though it's

00:14:49.029 --> 00:14:51.190
not quite an era like the victorians and shakespeare

00:14:51.190 --> 00:14:54.610
but that that's that's another way of describing

00:14:54.610 --> 00:15:02.409
it i suppose right yeah absolutely so loki does

00:15:02.409 --> 00:15:05.070
of course feature in the witch's heart because

00:15:05.070 --> 00:15:08.289
he does have a relationship with angry boda um

00:15:08.289 --> 00:15:12.440
but i really quite liked the way you explored,

00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:14.860
if not enlightened for me at least, his connection

00:15:14.860 --> 00:15:19.659
with the aspect of Gulveg Haid and finding her

00:15:19.659 --> 00:15:21.539
heart, the witch's heart, because it was an aspect

00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:23.879
of that character and her story that I'd never

00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.340
actually come across before. So only kind of

00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:28.019
like when I did later, he's like, oh yeah, he

00:15:28.019 --> 00:15:30.779
does actually mention he finds a heart and like,

00:15:30.779 --> 00:15:36.159
oh, that's actually, it's such a strange narrative

00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.139
element to have existed for so long, just out.

00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:44.480
on its own with no wider context. And so I really

00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.799
liked how you explored that in this narrative

00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:57.620
as well. Thank you. So which is your first book?

00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.659
I'm guessing so. It was not the first book that

00:16:00.659 --> 00:16:03.950
I wrote. It was the third book that I... Third

00:16:03.950 --> 00:16:05.610
or fourth? Third. I think it was the third book

00:16:05.610 --> 00:16:08.169
that I ever wrote. When I was in high school

00:16:08.169 --> 00:16:10.129
and my first few years at university, I was working

00:16:10.129 --> 00:16:12.610
on a vampire series. We're talking this was like

00:16:12.610 --> 00:16:18.950
2008 to 2011. I started that in 2006. So it was...

00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.179
the heyday of vampires, right? Well, one of the,

00:16:22.220 --> 00:16:25.200
hopefully they're coming back, but one of the

00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.700
big eras of vampire fiction. So I was working

00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:31.299
on this vampire series, and then I kind of stopped

00:16:31.299 --> 00:16:32.879
to write The Witch's Heart in the middle of that.

00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:36.539
I was so productive as an undergrad. I wish I

00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:40.139
could have the same production level as I did

00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:43.240
in my early 20s. But yeah, so I wrote those two

00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:44.440
books, then I wrote The Witch's Heart, and then

00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:47.379
I wrote two more books of another series that's

00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:49.240
kind of like an urban fantasy, but Valkyries.

00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:50.879
I don't know if it's ever going to see the light

00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:55.559
of day, but it was a ton of fun. I might go back

00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:56.240
to work on that one day. If they got published,

00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:58.879
Genevieve, I would buy them. Anything with Valkyries

00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.940
gets my money because that's my catnip. Thank

00:17:01.940 --> 00:17:05.839
you. They were very, very, very silly. And they

00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.220
were both also NaNoWriMo novels in 2013 and 2015.

00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:12.519
I wrote those. NaNoWriMo is like a hit or miss

00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:14.579
with me. Like every other year I tend to finish

00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:19.579
it. Yeah, so I wrote those two. And when I was

00:17:19.579 --> 00:17:22.039
trying to get an agent, a literary agent, those

00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:24.759
were the first things I tried when I was querying.

00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:27.920
The Vampire series, no go. And then the Valkyrie

00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:29.880
series, no go. And I was like, OK, you know what?

00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:31.539
I've got The Witch's Heart in my back pocket.

00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:33.700
It's technically part of The Vampire series,

00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:36.940
but I revised it to be a standalone for publication,

00:17:37.059 --> 00:17:40.859
which is why it was like seven years before I

00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:42.420
tried to even publish The Witch's Heart. I just

00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:46.710
kind of sat on it for that time. And how did

00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:49.490
you find the whole process of seeking publication?

00:17:49.829 --> 00:17:55.089
It was difficult. Yeah, it took, I started in

00:17:55.089 --> 00:17:58.450
2013 trying to get published with the Vampire

00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:00.309
book and then I wrote the Valkyrie book, but

00:18:00.309 --> 00:18:04.549
2013 to 2018 I was sending out you know, dozens

00:18:04.549 --> 00:18:07.390
of emails trying to get an agent. And it wasn't

00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:10.309
until 2018 that I started even querying the witch's

00:18:10.309 --> 00:18:13.069
heart. Because until then I was like, well, you

00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:15.910
know, who's going to read a book like this, where

00:18:15.910 --> 00:18:17.269
it's just this witch who's sitting in the middle

00:18:17.269 --> 00:18:19.009
of the woods doing her own thing, hiding from

00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:21.029
the gods, whatever. And then that's when your

00:18:21.029 --> 00:18:23.990
Circe by Madeleine Miller came out. I was like,

00:18:24.109 --> 00:18:25.750
okay, so maybe there is a market for this type

00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:32.069
of thing. Yeah. But five years of trying before

00:18:32.069 --> 00:18:37.930
I finally got anywhere, so it was tough. So how

00:18:37.930 --> 00:18:40.269
proud were you when The Witch's Heart finally

00:18:40.269 --> 00:18:43.890
became this beautiful edition that it is? I was

00:18:43.890 --> 00:18:46.130
pretty proud. I was pretty proud, but it was,

00:18:46.569 --> 00:18:50.210
you know, I was also... I was also pretty, pretty

00:18:50.210 --> 00:18:52.089
young when I wrote it. So like the first half

00:18:52.089 --> 00:18:54.170
of the book has been, has stayed pretty much

00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:56.470
the same since 2011, whereas the second half

00:18:56.470 --> 00:19:01.369
has undergone major revisions. So, which is how

00:19:01.369 --> 00:19:03.549
it got published. And then how was it for you

00:19:03.549 --> 00:19:06.869
kind of like promoting it, meeting readers, getting

00:19:06.869 --> 00:19:09.609
it into bookshops, seeing it go on sale online.

00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:11.509
So now I remember messaging you on social media

00:19:11.509 --> 00:19:13.269
saying, I have placed it on Order of the UK,

00:19:13.569 --> 00:19:15.210
and that it falls through. But I went to Amazon

00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.460
and then it kind of... finally got started that

00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:22.660
was wild um yeah uh it was it was interesting

00:19:22.660 --> 00:19:25.460
debuting during um we were still in lockdown

00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:28.680
it came out in in the in the yeah in the us it

00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:30.819
was february of 21 and then it came out in the

00:19:30.819 --> 00:19:35.940
uk in may of 21 uh so a lot of my stuff was virtual

00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:39.460
um like my my launch party was virtual all my

00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:41.859
talks were virtual i did a bunch of podcasts

00:19:41.859 --> 00:19:45.799
recordings because virtual And it was so much

00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.140
different than the Weaver and the Witch Queen

00:19:48.140 --> 00:19:51.380
promotion. But I mean, it was a lot of fun. It

00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:55.079
was so much fun to see how many people were touched

00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.299
by this story that I had kept to myself at that

00:19:57.299 --> 00:20:02.599
point for 10 years. I'm still overwhelmed by

00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:05.059
the reception to this book. I never would have

00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:07.259
guessed that this book that I wrote at university

00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:10.279
would have so many people who love it. I feel

00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.660
very fortunate and grateful. Oh, well, I'm so

00:20:14.660 --> 00:20:17.799
pleased it has pulled off here because I personally

00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:20.240
went through English studies with creative writing,

00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:23.299
having the same dream of getting a book published

00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:26.699
through my university or after university. But

00:20:26.699 --> 00:20:29.599
procrastination is my greatest nemesis. And without

00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.220
someone giving me deadlines, I will just say,

00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:34.039
oh, I'll do it tomorrow. Oh, I'll do it tomorrow.

00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.539
Oh, look, I'll finish this book. I'll just finish

00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:38.740
this chapter up here. Oh, I'll read a comic up

00:20:38.740 --> 00:20:40.960
here. And then eventually, I just thought, you

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.539
know what? I just can't. I lost any connection

00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:45.900
I had with the writing that I did during that

00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.640
time. And a lot of it was no space, nearly all

00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.619
my poems were poetry, which was terrible poetry.

00:20:52.149 --> 00:20:55.210
forced rhyme because I can't not rhyme. A lot

00:20:55.210 --> 00:20:58.009
of that was north -based. There was one short

00:20:58.009 --> 00:21:01.089
story I did in my first year which was about

00:21:01.089 --> 00:21:06.190
a valkyrie and that kick -started what started

00:21:06.190 --> 00:21:10.650
and eventually halted as an attempt to do a valkyrie,

00:21:10.650 --> 00:21:14.509
not novel. She got as far as Scarborough geographically

00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:15.930
in the book and then I stopped because I was

00:21:15.930 --> 00:21:17.730
like I don't know how to make you fly, I don't

00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:22.980
know how to do it. So I really, I sympathise

00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:24.960
and empathise a lot with the struggles you face.

00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.599
I also really salute you for the effort that

00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.059
you did, the passion that you kept with, especially

00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:33.119
National Novel Writing Month. It wasn't around

00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.119
when I was doing my degree. Plus I don't know

00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.119
if I would have actually had the patience or

00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.720
stamina to do it because life, video games, films,

00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.809
it was just... And having a kiddo. Oh yes, well

00:21:46.809 --> 00:21:49.650
that definitely came along. Strangely enough,

00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:52.369
my passions have just morphed into other things

00:21:52.369 --> 00:21:54.730
because I've always been a reader, hence why

00:21:54.730 --> 00:21:56.529
we're talking about your wonderful books. Reading

00:21:56.529 --> 00:22:00.349
has kept, maintained constantly. But I went from

00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:04.089
writing creatively, then into cosplay, and then

00:22:04.089 --> 00:22:06.769
I'm now doing podcasting, so here we are. Awesome.

00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:10.589
That's great. At all points I've tried to do

00:22:10.589 --> 00:22:12.829
something else, apart from the cosplay. I couldn't

00:22:12.829 --> 00:22:15.809
quite find the costume to do. that was suitable

00:22:15.809 --> 00:22:19.430
for a beginner. Viking reenactment. It's basically

00:22:19.430 --> 00:22:21.750
like a cosplay. Well we will get onto that on

00:22:21.750 --> 00:22:24.329
that topic because I know from your social media

00:22:24.329 --> 00:22:26.630
activity and of course on your website newsletters

00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:28.869
that you do go to Viking festivals so please

00:22:28.869 --> 00:22:31.109
tell us about how you got into all that because

00:22:31.109 --> 00:22:33.630
you do go in the full costume and gear, do you

00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:38.089
not? Yes, so I started doing Viking reenactment

00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:42.299
In 2014, I was at my local medieval renaissance

00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:46.140
fair. And I was walking around like in this Viking

00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:47.980
costume that I bought off the internet, biking

00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:51.460
costume that I bought off the internet. And I

00:22:51.460 --> 00:22:54.259
ended up running into the local reenactment group,

00:22:54.339 --> 00:22:55.759
which I didn't even know this was a thing. I

00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:58.000
didn't know Viking reenactment was a thing in

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.099
the first place, which is funny because I bought

00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:01.839
the outfit. So you would figure like there's

00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.079
a reason that people had the outfits, right?

00:23:05.549 --> 00:23:07.230
the rest was history, and I'm still with the

00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:11.390
same group 11 years later. And I started off

00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:14.990
really like some of my old photos, my kit was

00:23:14.990 --> 00:23:20.589
not great. And so slowly over the years, my group

00:23:20.589 --> 00:23:23.289
as a whole, because they started themselves at

00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:25.990
a Renaissance fair, and they've been around for

00:23:25.990 --> 00:23:28.650
over 20 years. And just in the past, like since

00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:32.119
I've joined, we've gotten so much more focused

00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.819
on authenticity and education rather than just

00:23:34.819 --> 00:23:36.799
the combat, which is what a lot of groups do

00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:40.019
really, really well. But our true passion is

00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:43.420
talking to the public and educating about life

00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:49.039
in the Viking age. So I do tablet weaving. I

00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:51.880
am a terrible spinner, but I do spin for a demo.

00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:55.299
At our last event, one of our guys was making

00:23:55.299 --> 00:24:01.359
mail, like making the rivets, like rivet by rivet.

00:24:02.070 --> 00:24:04.970
And there's a video, I should find it on Instagram,

00:24:05.069 --> 00:24:07.289
I think it was just posted by the gentleman who

00:24:07.289 --> 00:24:09.589
took, a Roman reenactor took videos of us in

00:24:09.589 --> 00:24:12.450
that event, which was really fun. But it's great,

00:24:12.750 --> 00:24:14.369
and the public events are great, because you

00:24:14.369 --> 00:24:18.269
get to talk to people, and the kind of private

00:24:18.269 --> 00:24:19.710
events are great too, because then you get to

00:24:19.710 --> 00:24:22.349
sit down with other Viking reenactors, some of

00:24:22.349 --> 00:24:25.450
whom are so knowledgeable, and are so willing

00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:27.529
to share their knowledge, and it's really, every

00:24:27.529 --> 00:24:29.150
time I go to one of those, it just fills my cup.

00:24:30.259 --> 00:24:33.480
And what's really cool is that when I had written

00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:36.599
The Witch's Heart, I knew a lot about the myths

00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:38.539
and the sagas and all of that stuff, but I didn't

00:24:38.539 --> 00:24:41.039
know a lot about material culture and daily life.

00:24:41.299 --> 00:24:43.559
So digging into the archaeological finds and

00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:45.859
stuff like that really helped me go back when

00:24:45.859 --> 00:24:47.759
I was revising The Witch's Heart for publication

00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.019
and kind of throwing in more little things to

00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:56.619
make the world feel more tangible and real. So

00:24:56.619 --> 00:24:59.359
I guess... This question I usually start with

00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:00.880
all my guests at the start, but we'll put it

00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:02.779
in now because it seems the right time for it.

00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.160
How did you first get into, you mentioned it

00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.200
was in a class about mythology, wasn't it? So

00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.119
was that what first drew you into the kind of

00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.599
the whole big spherical of Viking or stuff? Was

00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:17.700
it the mythology first and then the history?

00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.400
So it was the language first, weirdly enough.

00:25:21.859 --> 00:25:28.509
So in 2010, The autumn of 2010, I had the privilege

00:25:28.509 --> 00:25:32.470
of spending a semester in Uppsala, Sweden, going

00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:35.529
to school, studying abroad. And while I was there,

00:25:35.690 --> 00:25:37.970
I thought, might as well get a Scandinavian studies

00:25:37.970 --> 00:25:41.660
minor when I go back home, right? So... The whole

00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:43.839
reason I post to study in Sweden is because my

00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:46.140
grandfather is from Stockholm. So I was like,

00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:49.299
I have family and friends over there. So I had

00:25:49.299 --> 00:25:51.140
never left the United States before. So it was

00:25:51.140 --> 00:25:54.779
my first time abroad. And so I checked the course

00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:56.940
catalog back at my university back back here

00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:00.839
in the States. And the there were like two classes

00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:02.720
offered in the Scandinavian department that semester.

00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:06.140
And one of them was Old Norse language. And after

00:26:06.140 --> 00:26:08.900
the first class, I was like, I am hooked. I forgot

00:26:08.900 --> 00:26:12.339
how weird this stuff is. I'd read Norse mythology

00:26:12.339 --> 00:26:16.500
as a kid, but never the Eddas, never the original

00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:19.000
sources. And here we were translating the story

00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.920
of Loki giving birth to a horse. And I was like,

00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.759
this is amazing. And that was really my gateway

00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.700
to it. So it was Old Norse. And then in that

00:26:29.700 --> 00:26:33.099
fall, the autumn, I took the mythology course.

00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.160
the spring or the winter quarter I took the Icelandic

00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.339
sagas as a course. All with the same professor

00:26:41.339 --> 00:26:43.180
who's amazing and it's her fault that I'm like

00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:48.460
this and she knows it. Yeah it was my gateway

00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:50.319
to all of the stuff really was through through

00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:52.240
academia but specifically through the Old Norse

00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.900
language. But it's also interesting to learn

00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.119
that you do generally have family then family

00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.569
connections back to Scandinavia as well. On your

00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:03.910
side or your father's side? Oh, it's on my mother's

00:27:03.910 --> 00:27:06.910
side. So my grandfather immigrated to the United

00:27:06.910 --> 00:27:11.630
States from Stockholm in the 50s. And he has

00:27:11.630 --> 00:27:14.309
since he since found out after I was even over

00:27:14.309 --> 00:27:16.750
there that he had like family that he didn't

00:27:16.750 --> 00:27:19.029
even know about. So I've gotten to know them.

00:27:19.210 --> 00:27:21.630
And I made some friends over there before I even

00:27:21.630 --> 00:27:24.910
went over through and this is going to age me

00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:28.359
through a Star Trek Live Journal community. I

00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:30.079
met two of my best friends in Sweden through

00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.880
a Star Trek live journal community. So, yeah.

00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:37.119
And I speak the language a little bit, but everyone

00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:38.880
over there is so good at English that I rarely

00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:45.099
get a chance to use it, unfortunately. Because

00:27:45.099 --> 00:27:50.119
I know... I'm pretty sure it was you when I was...

00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:52.690
When I was going to Norway for my debut in the

00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:54.609
sitcom, it was in last year. Yes. I discovered

00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:56.490
that you were going to be nearly around the same

00:27:56.490 --> 00:27:58.210
time. Yes. I was hoping that you were staying

00:27:58.210 --> 00:28:00.410
over, but it was those cats that they needed

00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:02.329
you back home. Yes, it was the cats. So I let

00:28:02.329 --> 00:28:06.230
you go back to your cats. Yes, and also, I'm

00:28:06.230 --> 00:28:09.490
actually, thank you. I am also really glad that

00:28:09.490 --> 00:28:12.130
that didn't work out, honestly, because in my

00:28:12.130 --> 00:28:14.109
last few days in Norway, I did get COVID, and

00:28:14.109 --> 00:28:17.299
I was very, very ill. um my last few days and

00:28:17.299 --> 00:28:19.480
I I worry I'm glad that I didn't let you know

00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:23.039
get you sick get anybody else sick so it was

00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.880
fortunate but we'll we'll we'll have to meet

00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.460
again some other time we will I keep I keep getting

00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:32.740
emails from P &O cruises which is one of the

00:28:32.740 --> 00:28:34.319
main cruise lines around the cake I think oh

00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.660
come on this Norwegian pure cruise I can't afford

00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:43.039
£899 oh oh no that's not even for the excursions

00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:46.640
or the food or anything else I just want to win

00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.480
the lottery but they don't play the lottery so

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:50.700
that's never going to happen either. I understand.

00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:58.700
I'm right there with you. So do you go to reenactments

00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:00.519
more or less around your local area where you

00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.000
live or do you travel a bit further afield for

00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.079
them? Have you ever been to biking festivals

00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:09.380
in Scandinavia or Norway like that? Um, not as

00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:13.079
a Viking. I've been to the Tumsberg Viking Festival,

00:29:13.180 --> 00:29:15.960
which is very cute. It's in Norway, just south

00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:20.359
of Oslo, on the western side of the fjord. And

00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.480
I do go to a bunch of festivals, like around...

00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.200
I live in the midwestern United States, and so

00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:28.279
there's a bunch of little festivals happening

00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:31.579
all around here that I go to. I would love to

00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:34.920
go to more festivals in Europe, though. So, one

00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:37.599
day, hopefully. You need to come over and join

00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.519
me for the Yorvik Biking Festival. Yes! The dream!

00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:46.759
The dream! If I had a spare room, I would happily

00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:48.839
put you up. I just can't afford the flight costume.

00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:51.700
I completely understand. Totally understandable.

00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:56.839
Well, one day. We will make it happen one day.

00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:02.480
I am always there, often alone, because I'm an

00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.170
independent... North person because not many

00:30:05.170 --> 00:30:07.569
people in my immediate family or friends or even

00:30:07.569 --> 00:30:10.390
my mom friends kind of like know anything about

00:30:10.390 --> 00:30:13.029
this as a subject like one of my friends mom

00:30:13.029 --> 00:30:16.210
friends asked me like who is Thor and how do

00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:18.829
we know about it and I was like that's two really

00:30:18.829 --> 00:30:22.410
big questions there and talk just give me an

00:30:22.410 --> 00:30:26.269
hour yes yes oh my gosh like when I when I sat

00:30:26.269 --> 00:30:28.069
down to write the appendix for the witch's heart

00:30:28.069 --> 00:30:30.549
I literally was sitting there I was just like

00:30:30.549 --> 00:30:33.910
who is Thor how do I explain Thor from scratch

00:30:33.910 --> 00:30:41.230
you know like oh so i get it uh but it just shows

00:30:41.230 --> 00:30:43.950
how kind of like it's almost kind of like almost

00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:47.130
there's like a to go harry potter -esque with

00:30:47.130 --> 00:30:49.369
a metaphor for example kind of like there's muggles

00:30:49.369 --> 00:30:51.269
and then there's wizards there's people who know

00:30:51.269 --> 00:30:52.890
about this north stuff and the people who do

00:30:52.890 --> 00:30:57.609
not know about this north stuff i mean bless

00:30:57.609 --> 00:30:59.869
my mom she's she's often been with me to the

00:30:59.869 --> 00:31:01.859
orbit bike festival she was first person who

00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:04.119
went along through a lot the finalist and as

00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.779
I grew up I just went on my own or made friends

00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:09.680
they went um there was another podcaster from

00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.319
the America that used to come over a couple of

00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.140
years before Covid but he's sadly we lost touch

00:31:14.140 --> 00:31:15.880
and these podcasts seems to have halted so I

00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:17.859
don't know what's quite happened to him but he

00:31:17.859 --> 00:31:21.500
used to be a regular companion of mine. But I

00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:24.359
know this year I brought her out to the finale

00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.720
event just before her 70th birthday. Even just

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.740
as she's turning 70, she's still supporting me,

00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:31.559
even though she's really kind of like into it

00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:33.779
as much as I do. But she appreciates the experience

00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:37.259
and being part of me and my geeky life, really.

00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:42.299
It's great. So you've got the witch's heart under

00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:44.740
your belt. You've got reenactment now in your

00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:47.380
life, fulfilling that circle. So then the next

00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:50.460
book came along. this beauty here the witcher

00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.539
the weaver and the witch queen i always get the

00:31:52.539 --> 00:31:54.559
middle box but it's the weaver and the witch

00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:59.519
queen it's true as a title it's lovely i it's

00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.859
like they both have a work sound in them and

00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:03.599
i really like they're kind of like the asymmetry

00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:05.980
between the two books um and of course beautiful

00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:09.660
kind of like not almost celtic but not celtic

00:32:09.660 --> 00:32:13.180
i love it i love that cover i love that cover

00:32:13.180 --> 00:32:15.980
so much yes They've both got really good covers,

00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:18.299
really good covers. So do you would like to tell

00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:21.359
our viewers and listeners about who features

00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.059
in the Weaver and the Witch Queen? Like who is

00:32:23.059 --> 00:32:28.140
the Weaver? Who is the Witch Queen and why? The

00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:31.039
Weaver and the Witch Queen is a more fantastical

00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.539
reimagining of the origin story of Gunnhild Mother

00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:37.539
of Kings, who was a Queen of Norway in the early

00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:40.700
10th century, who in a lot of the sources about

00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:45.319
her is vilified due to doing villainous things.

00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:50.099
Oh, um, but she's so fun. And, you know, on my,

00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:52.759
like, I think, second reading of Eos Saga, which

00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.059
is one of the more famous medieval Icelandic

00:32:55.059 --> 00:32:58.380
sagas, um, she is the arch nemesis of the main

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.000
character, Eos Scott Paggrímsson. So, and that,

00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:04.950
I'm sorry, I just butchered that. So sorry, I

00:33:04.950 --> 00:33:07.769
can pronounce it in my head, but it doesn't always

00:33:07.769 --> 00:33:10.190
come out right. I mean, I say it in a very anglicized

00:33:10.190 --> 00:33:14.529
way, you say it in a beautiful English way. Yeah,

00:33:14.849 --> 00:33:18.630
she ends up being the lifelong antagonist of

00:33:18.630 --> 00:33:22.069
this famous saga hero who's known for how brutal

00:33:22.069 --> 00:33:26.609
he is. And so she's a heck of a girl. But I noticed

00:33:26.609 --> 00:33:29.990
in all her sources that she never speaks with

00:33:29.990 --> 00:33:32.519
another woman, really. because because women

00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:34.599
don't show up a lot in the sagas and when they

00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:37.140
when they do it's like you know these elite women

00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:39.519
with the really strong personalities more most

00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:42.079
often of which she is one of them but i'm like

00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.099
you know what she needs two best friends so i

00:33:46.099 --> 00:33:50.130
gave her two best friends And you tore them apart

00:33:50.130 --> 00:33:54.869
in quite dramatic style. Yes. Yes, I sure did.

00:33:55.230 --> 00:34:00.730
Yup. Yup. And while part of me kind of wishes

00:34:00.730 --> 00:34:05.650
that I had just written Gunnhild's story, I really,

00:34:05.710 --> 00:34:07.410
at the time that I wrote it, I was really wanting

00:34:07.410 --> 00:34:10.150
to explore the lives of women who weren't elite,

00:34:10.210 --> 00:34:13.730
who didn't have this high status. So the other

00:34:13.730 --> 00:34:16.550
point of view character in the book, Opney, is

00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:19.070
she's just a regular farm girl. her family's

00:34:19.070 --> 00:34:24.110
poor. And after a raid, she and Gunhilda are

00:34:24.110 --> 00:34:26.530
brought back together and kind of having to deal

00:34:26.530 --> 00:34:29.869
with the aftermath of everything that has happened.

00:34:31.289 --> 00:34:33.869
And their goal is to rescue their kind of third

00:34:33.869 --> 00:34:36.809
sister, Signe, who was captured during the raid

00:34:36.809 --> 00:34:44.150
and enslaved. So, yeah, it's a... Yep, I... It

00:34:44.150 --> 00:34:46.710
was the first book I ever wrote under contract,

00:34:47.409 --> 00:34:49.530
which means that I didn't have the book written

00:34:49.530 --> 00:34:53.210
first, like before it was picked up for publication.

00:34:54.809 --> 00:34:56.550
Interesting. Let me tell you, it was really nice,

00:34:56.670 --> 00:34:58.269
which is part of having, you know, seven years

00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:01.050
to kind of tinker with it versus being on that

00:35:01.050 --> 00:35:04.409
tight deadline. and knowing that people were

00:35:04.409 --> 00:35:06.090
going to read it. You know, I wasn't writing

00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:08.250
it just for me. I was writing it knowing that

00:35:08.250 --> 00:35:09.869
it was going to be published and I got, you're

00:35:09.869 --> 00:35:12.909
really in my head about it sometimes. But overall,

00:35:12.909 --> 00:35:15.130
I'm really proud of how it turned out. I don't

00:35:15.130 --> 00:35:16.730
think at the time I could have done any better

00:35:16.730 --> 00:35:18.909
than I did. So the book, it really means a lot

00:35:18.909 --> 00:35:22.389
to me. It is, it is superbly written and you

00:35:22.389 --> 00:35:24.269
can really see how you've kind of like gone up

00:35:24.269 --> 00:35:26.809
another level with your storytelling from the

00:35:26.809 --> 00:35:29.489
witch story. Thank you. Thank you so much. That

00:35:29.489 --> 00:35:31.630
means so much to me. Thank you for saying that.

00:35:32.179 --> 00:35:34.559
Well, it is. It's such an immersive world and

00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.019
I really like how you've not just focused on

00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:39.980
Gunnhild as the queen as she is in all the sagas,

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.400
but the life she had before she's the queen,

00:35:42.579 --> 00:35:46.699
like why she became the infamous queen of villainy.

00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:51.960
And that's not even... Sorry, go on. Didn't mean

00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:56.579
to interrupt. Go on. So actually, I am working

00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:59.619
on a sequel that I don't know if it will be published.

00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:01.860
by my publishers, but it's going to be published

00:36:01.860 --> 00:36:04.760
somehow. And then I really wanted it to be a

00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:09.219
trilogy. So it gets more villainous kind of as

00:36:09.219 --> 00:36:12.380
the third book really is going to be like her

00:36:12.380 --> 00:36:15.639
corruption arc the way I have it planned. But

00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.260
you see the seeds in the Weaver and the Witch

00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:20.079
Queen of like, you know, she doesn't always make

00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:22.679
the best decisions. And that's what I really

00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:24.920
enjoy about her. Like in the sources, you know,

00:36:25.219 --> 00:36:28.420
I wanted people who didn't know who she was to

00:36:28.420 --> 00:36:29.920
read the Weaver and the Witch Queen and say,

00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:32.519
well, I want to know more about her. And people

00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:35.619
who did know who she was to be like, you know,

00:36:35.619 --> 00:36:38.079
I can see her turning into the person she becomes

00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:43.420
in the sagas. As I mentioned earlier, you've

00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:45.760
found that gap in the jigsaw and you've made

00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.840
a shape that fits it perfectly to bridge the

00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:51.599
gap between what we know and what we don't know.

00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.000
And of course, you mentioned kind of like the

00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.480
other protagonists, Zigni and Ogni, but there's

00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:00.119
also lots of other amazing, fascinating female

00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.139
characters in there, like the original Bolver.

00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:05.440
the old witch that teaches Goodhild her magical

00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.860
ways, then you've got enemy witches who are just

00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:10.400
like, wow, witches versus witches, that was amazing.

00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.659
Yes, thank you. But then of course you explore

00:37:14.659 --> 00:37:19.219
the aspect of gender identity and fluidity as

00:37:19.219 --> 00:37:21.940
well. So you kind of like, you cover all the

00:37:21.940 --> 00:37:24.300
different aspects of being a woman, both as a

00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:28.699
woman and a woman wanting, a woman who... feels

00:37:28.699 --> 00:37:31.440
deep down that she is someone else, not who she's

00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.500
born as kind of thing. And I mean, I still quite

00:37:35.500 --> 00:37:38.219
like the character that was the tattooist, because

00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:39.980
of course you introduced the idea of tattoos,

00:37:40.539 --> 00:37:42.159
which I know you explained kind of like in, I

00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:44.619
think in yours, there's that kind of like historical

00:37:44.619 --> 00:37:46.360
evidence for it, because of course skin, not

00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:48.340
much skin is kept apart from the skin that's

00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:50.900
in it. I think it was a cathedral that's been

00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:53.260
pinned to a door from when they... but barricaded

00:37:53.260 --> 00:37:55.320
loads of Vikings in but I've got no sign that

00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:58.360
he's on. But I just like the idea because of

00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:00.679
course kind of like artistic stuff like that

00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:02.940
was probably not a man thing, it might have been

00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:04.840
a woman thing, but again it might have been.

00:38:05.179 --> 00:38:07.300
No one else can tell me otherwise because no

00:38:07.300 --> 00:38:11.260
one really knows. Like, I really wanted to explore

00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:13.679
the different ways that women could have agency

00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:17.440
in the Viking Age, apart from being a warrior,

00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.260
which is something we hear about all the time.

00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:21.940
And that's amazing. I think it's wonderful that

00:38:21.940 --> 00:38:24.039
women today are so empowered by this idea of

00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:27.280
field maintenance. But that's not all women did

00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.099
in the Viking Age. Like, that's not the only

00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:31.599
way they could be powerful and could determine

00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:34.679
their own fates. And that's... That was the whole

00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:36.280
reasoning behind writing the book in the first

00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.639
place is to say, you know, children are great.

00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.380
But women deserve to have a choice, like in the

00:38:44.380 --> 00:38:46.719
ways that they live their lives, even, you know,

00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:51.300
a thousand years ago. Yeah, absolutely. You've

00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:54.900
you've really touched on all bases because there's.

00:38:55.699 --> 00:38:58.480
There's there's a mother. Well, not a mother.

00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:00.360
Is there a stepmother figure? I can't remember

00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:01.659
if she's a stepmother, but there's a kind like

00:39:01.659 --> 00:39:06.039
the woman that. when Gunnhild goes with Eric,

00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.840
once she's met up with Eric. Oh, Gita. Gita,

00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:13.559
yeah. Gita, yes. She's kind of a very dominating

00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:16.239
figure in that household. I love her. The very

00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.460
hardest to please type. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, yes.

00:39:20.619 --> 00:39:22.980
That's not quite the kind of like typical fairy

00:39:22.980 --> 00:39:24.860
tale villainous stepmother, but you can kind

00:39:24.860 --> 00:39:27.679
of get the same vibes and get that tricky relationship

00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:30.039
and dynamic going on. Right. But when you do

00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:34.320
get women who want to obviously be, get their

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.599
independent selves in their own right and not

00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:38.699
have it given to them by men, then there is going

00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:42.360
to be that clash because it's almost like a power

00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.059
of hierarchy, like who can be more higher up?

00:39:45.460 --> 00:39:50.340
Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. But yeah, it's full

00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:52.460
of wonderful characters and I do encourage all

00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:54.639
readers in this list to go buy it, download it,

00:39:54.739 --> 00:39:57.179
listen to it. Is it an audiobook as well? It

00:39:57.179 --> 00:39:59.900
is, yes. Yes, great. Yes, go get the audiobook

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:04.570
as well. If anybody has listened to the audiobook

00:40:04.570 --> 00:40:07.369
for A Fate Inked in Blood by Danielle Jensen,

00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:11.469
which is also like a Norse adjacent sort of fantasy

00:40:11.469 --> 00:40:14.670
book, it's the same narrator, Nina Indes, and

00:40:14.670 --> 00:40:18.050
she is Norwegian. So she does a wonderful job.

00:40:19.130 --> 00:40:21.110
I've got that book on my to read list that I

00:40:21.110 --> 00:40:23.230
haven't yet read yet. I've got holiday coming

00:40:23.230 --> 00:40:25.590
up, so hopefully I might get time to read it.

00:40:25.630 --> 00:40:27.369
She says, I'm guessing she's got a four and a

00:40:27.369 --> 00:40:31.170
half year old. Is she four and a half already?

00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:37.519
Oh my gosh. Time flies. I remember, gosh, we've

00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:39.619
been mutuals on Twitter for a really long time.

00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:43.219
I literally remember you announcing her birth.

00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.860
Man, I can't believe it's been so long. Yep,

00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:48.860
she's got school groups in September, so hopefully

00:40:48.860 --> 00:40:52.679
I'll get some reading time back. Thank you. Which

00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:54.480
you'll see, hopefully, hopefully she'll settle

00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.059
in well. She's a firecracker in her own right.

00:40:57.460 --> 00:41:00.360
She, she really is. I mean, like we, the attitude

00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.760
we give her sometimes comes back at us out of

00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.719
her mouth and it's just hilarious. Oh my gosh.

00:41:08.059 --> 00:41:11.519
But yes, but yes, they're two really wonderful

00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.420
books. And of course, I must obviously explore

00:41:14.420 --> 00:41:17.480
how you interpreted Eric Bloodaxe, yet to be

00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:19.139
named Bloodaxe in this book. Because of course

00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:22.530
he is equally a part of Gunnhill's story. If

00:41:22.530 --> 00:41:24.630
there is one, they're very much two halves of

00:41:24.630 --> 00:41:27.170
the same whole. You can't have his story without

00:41:27.170 --> 00:41:28.730
Gunnhill's and you can't have Gunnhill's without

00:41:28.730 --> 00:41:32.170
his story. It's Eric and Gunnhill's. My ride

00:41:32.170 --> 00:41:34.710
or die, my favorite historical couple, I'm obsessed

00:41:34.710 --> 00:41:39.550
with them. Obsessed. So would you like to give

00:41:39.550 --> 00:41:42.650
our readers a kind of a brief recount of who

00:41:42.650 --> 00:41:45.429
Eric Bloodaxe is and why he's significant in

00:41:45.429 --> 00:41:50.369
Gunnhill's story? Yes, so Eric Bloodaxe, is the

00:41:50.369 --> 00:41:54.050
second king of Norway. He is the favorite son

00:41:54.050 --> 00:41:57.369
of Harald Fairhair, who is a legendary king who

00:41:57.369 --> 00:41:59.949
unified the country in the late 9th century.

00:42:01.550 --> 00:42:04.750
And Erik being named King Harald's successor

00:42:04.750 --> 00:42:08.429
ruffled a lot of feathers, because King Harald

00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:11.789
famously had many other sons with many other

00:42:11.789 --> 00:42:16.389
women. And upon his death, uh circa well he okay

00:42:16.389 --> 00:42:18.710
so according to the story thrills since heimskringle

00:42:18.710 --> 00:42:20.889
which is the main source that i kind of used

00:42:20.889 --> 00:42:24.070
for this book even though there are other norwegian

00:42:24.070 --> 00:42:27.190
mainland sources that kind of talk about uh the

00:42:27.190 --> 00:42:29.210
the formation of norway and eric bloodaxe and

00:42:29.210 --> 00:42:31.630
all that stuff i just think the icelandic versions

00:42:31.630 --> 00:42:36.889
are like so much more um gosh They read more

00:42:36.889 --> 00:42:39.170
like stories instead of histories, right? Snoring

00:42:39.170 --> 00:42:41.610
does a really good job of like pulling you into

00:42:41.610 --> 00:42:43.670
the story. And yeah, a lot of it is probably

00:42:43.670 --> 00:42:46.869
BS, but like he's a fan fiction writer and I'm

00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:49.909
writing fan fiction of his fan fiction. So like

00:42:49.909 --> 00:42:55.110
that is what it is. So King Harald's hands it

00:42:55.110 --> 00:42:58.800
over power to Eric circa 930. And then when he

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:03.019
died, circa 933, Eric and Gunnhild really only

00:43:03.019 --> 00:43:05.400
ruled for like two years before they were ousted

00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:10.179
by Eric's youngest brother, Håkon, who was fostered

00:43:10.179 --> 00:43:13.860
in England with King Applestan. And then he comes

00:43:13.860 --> 00:43:16.900
and he ousts Eric and Gunnhild. And there's a

00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:18.960
couple different origin stories for Gunnhild.

00:43:21.289 --> 00:43:23.469
One was that she was a Danish princess, one of

00:43:23.469 --> 00:43:25.349
the daughters of King Gorm the Old of Denmark.

00:43:25.789 --> 00:43:27.949
And the other one was that she was a sorceress

00:43:27.949 --> 00:43:30.550
from Hallogaland, which is the story that I went

00:43:30.550 --> 00:43:31.889
with in The Weaver and the Witch Queen because

00:43:31.889 --> 00:43:36.190
witches, right? And story gives us this whole

00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:42.530
story about how they meet. And he, Eric is doing

00:43:42.530 --> 00:43:45.269
his Viking raiding thing in the north of what

00:43:45.269 --> 00:43:47.750
is now like Northwestern Russia. And then on

00:43:47.750 --> 00:43:50.429
his way back, There's a whole story there with

00:43:50.429 --> 00:43:52.849
the Sami, and it's kind of offensive, so I changed

00:43:52.849 --> 00:43:56.489
it. And that's how he meets Gunhild up in Finnmark

00:43:56.489 --> 00:43:58.550
in northern Norway, and he brings her south with

00:43:58.550 --> 00:44:01.829
him, and they get married. And a lot of the reason

00:44:01.829 --> 00:44:04.530
that she is vilified, before she even does anything,

00:44:04.769 --> 00:44:06.969
before she even does anything questionable, is

00:44:06.969 --> 00:44:09.789
just because she had such a dominating personality.

00:44:10.969 --> 00:44:13.269
I mean, like, if your name is Erik Bloodaxe,

00:44:13.289 --> 00:44:15.309
and you're telling your wife to pump the brakes

00:44:15.309 --> 00:44:19.000
on the murder, Like, what is that telling you

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:21.360
about this woman? Like, it's just amazing. So

00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:22.960
like, I, you know, one of the reasons that they

00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:24.460
were kind of vilified from the outset is that

00:44:24.460 --> 00:44:26.940
people didn't like Gunhild. Like, they didn't

00:44:26.940 --> 00:44:28.300
like Eric because he was going around killing

00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:29.980
his brothers, but they also didn't like Gunhild

00:44:29.980 --> 00:44:33.000
because she was such a force of nature. And again,

00:44:33.099 --> 00:44:36.880
this was before she even did anything bad. So,

00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:41.000
and that's kind of how. Like, their story starts.

00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:44.039
And then after fleeing Norway, they kind of bopped

00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:46.280
around the Orkneys and the British Isles, like,

00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:48.780
making trouble, until King Applestan was finally

00:44:48.780 --> 00:44:51.659
like, can you guys stop if I give you some land

00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:54.480
in North Umbria? Like, will you just stop? You

00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:57.559
could take Jorvik. Just stop with the raiding.

00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:01.000
And they were like, cool. So they ruled in Jorvik

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:03.480
for a time until Erik was killed in battle in

00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:08.750
954. It was an ambush of some sort, I believe.

00:45:08.949 --> 00:45:11.909
So now, of course, he is famously the original

00:45:11.909 --> 00:45:14.469
logo, if not face, of the Orbit Viking Center

00:45:14.469 --> 00:45:17.250
when it first opened. With its 40th anniversary,

00:45:17.409 --> 00:45:20.670
they've brought some retro looks back of kind

00:45:20.670 --> 00:45:23.590
of a bearded Viking, obviously without the horned

00:45:23.590 --> 00:45:27.849
helmet. And he also had a coin minted at York.

00:45:28.769 --> 00:45:33.179
And I have many replicas of that coin. Yeah,

00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:35.099
so that's one of the many reasons I would like

00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:38.139
to go to the Yorvik Viking Festival one day Just

00:45:38.139 --> 00:45:39.820
because like that has a special significance

00:45:39.820 --> 00:45:41.880
like in the story of Erik and Gunnhild and there's

00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:46.340
a really hidden There's a really funny funny

00:45:46.340 --> 00:45:49.519
kind of like anecdote in Aeol's saga about what

00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.619
happens when Aeol Scott La Grimson meets Erik

00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:54.460
and Gunnhild in York. He shipwrecked He already

00:45:54.460 --> 00:45:56.039
has a feud with them and there's just a whole

00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:59.219
like story that cracks me up that happens in

00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:04.079
York in Yorvik. So yeah That's the one much praised

00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:08.719
poem to try and save his head. Yes, yes. If I

00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:12.019
remember, Gunnhill supposedly blamed us shapeshifting

00:46:12.019 --> 00:46:14.400
into a bird or something to try and disturb him

00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:16.039
so he doesn't get a good sleep, so we can't write

00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:18.820
a good poem. Yes, exactly, exactly. My favourite

00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:22.260
part, and that is why Gunnhill, her witch. form

00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.019
in The Weaver and the Witch Queen is a swallow,

00:46:24.340 --> 00:46:26.579
which is also on the cover of the book. That's

00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:29.420
from that story, from the anecdote. And my favorite

00:46:29.420 --> 00:46:31.719
part of that, my absolute favorite part of that

00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:35.260
story is, you know, Arne Bjorn, who has kinship

00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:38.260
ties to Ayl. Arne Bjorn, Erik's foster brother,

00:46:38.500 --> 00:46:40.480
who followed Erik and Gunnhilde after they left

00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.519
Norway. He walks in, he's like, Ayl, like, how's

00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.030
the poem going, buddy? And he's like, It would

00:46:46.030 --> 00:46:48.289
be going better if this stupid bird wasn't yapping

00:46:48.289 --> 00:46:50.610
at the window all night and breaking my concentration.

00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:54.110
And Arndt Bjorn chases the bird away and sits

00:46:54.110 --> 00:46:56.309
out there all night so it doesn't come back.

00:46:56.469 --> 00:47:00.329
And that just cracks me up. I picture Arndt Bjorn

00:47:00.329 --> 00:47:02.210
just casing her away with the broom and then

00:47:02.210 --> 00:47:06.369
just being like, don't come back. It just cracks

00:47:06.369 --> 00:47:09.300
me up. The sagas are so unintentionally funny

00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:11.159
sometimes, or maybe it was intentional, I don't

00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:13.460
know. Sorry, I'm rambling, but I love that story

00:47:13.460 --> 00:47:15.679
so much. No, no, it's absolutely all good. You

00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:20.239
know, I ramble a lot myself. As long as it's

00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.440
Viking stuff, I'm happy to just sit in this and

00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:25.579
it's all good. And yet there is a wonderful rich,

00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:28.699
as you say, and we're pushing it, a lot of history

00:47:28.699 --> 00:47:31.579
behind these two characters. And again, it's

00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:35.039
nice to come across historical fiction that touches

00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:39.639
on these kings and queens and princesses and

00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:42.800
of course women of Scandinavia because there's

00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:44.619
loads of historical fiction written about them,

00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.400
many many many kings and queens of England. There's

00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:49.320
only a couple I know of that even touch on Queen

00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:51.420
Emry and Canute. They're my two favorite kind

00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:54.179
of like superheroes, celebrity, historical king

00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:58.179
and queen because they're both equally as dynamic

00:47:58.179 --> 00:48:01.239
as Eric in Good Hills without the villainy of

00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:04.679
course. But yes, they were amazing. So it's nice

00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:08.440
to actually touch on the origins of how Norway

00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:10.360
grew into Norway because of course so many people

00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:13.599
forget that Scandinavia was as fractured as Anglo

00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.739
-Saxon England was. There were so many feuding

00:48:15.739 --> 00:48:19.940
kings and queens and kings and princes and tribes

00:48:19.940 --> 00:48:22.960
and clans and whatnot. Because I do remember

00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:26.000
I think the first time I came across Good Hills

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:30.320
and Eric in Fiction was certainly with Eric Schumacher's

00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.619
Hack on the Good trilogy which explored a whole,

00:48:33.619 --> 00:48:35.559
well, it was a trilogy about Hack on the Good

00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:39.800
growing up. Oh! Yeah! I'm not familiar with that,

00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:43.519
that's awesome! Yeah, yeah, he's also done a

00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:46.460
trilogy about Olaf Trigbysen as well, or who

00:48:46.460 --> 00:48:48.699
would be coming with it to say Olaf. There's

00:48:48.699 --> 00:48:51.420
a lot of Olaf's in Norse history. It's confusing

00:48:51.420 --> 00:48:54.920
at times. Yes, but the Hack on the Good trilogy

00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:56.980
was good, especially because of course he can't

00:48:56.980 --> 00:48:59.179
grow up as a Christian and he's coming back to

00:48:59.179 --> 00:49:02.880
a country that's predominantly pagan and because

00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:06.219
I remember reading about him briefly in non -fiction

00:49:06.219 --> 00:49:08.199
stuff and hearing about how kind of like how

00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:11.159
he upset a lot of the yowls and the goatee at

00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:12.900
the time because he wouldn't let the meat horse

00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:14.719
meet certain vegetables because of course it

00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:18.579
was just he he really explores the dynamic and

00:49:18.579 --> 00:49:21.820
the challenges both kind of like on the surface

00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:24.900
and below the surface between not just Hakon

00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:27.659
and Eric rumbling around each other trying to

00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:29.800
keep hold of the same crown but also that clash

00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:32.599
of religions and society and trying to keep peace

00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:35.019
when everyone's got different opinions and things.

00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.239
So I would recommend that series if anyone's

00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:40.159
interested. That's awesome. I have to ask, and

00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.960
I know this is going to be spoilery, so I'm sorry.

00:49:42.739 --> 00:49:46.159
No worries. But does the trilogy end with Halkan

00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:50.599
getting hit with an arrow? It does, yes. Oh,

00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:52.679
ouch. And for the record, that was one of the

00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:53.920
- It does end with his death, because he does

00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.860
die from an injury from a battle. I don't think

00:49:56.860 --> 00:50:01.840
it is... I think it's through the one he wronged.

00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:03.820
A spear, sorry. Oh, in this case, it's an arrow

00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:08.030
injury, I think. And that's what kills him. I

00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:09.309
think that's what I remember. It's been a while

00:50:09.309 --> 00:50:13.110
since I've read it. That tracks. I mention this

00:50:13.110 --> 00:50:16.429
because one of the villainous seeds attributed

00:50:16.429 --> 00:50:19.550
to Gunnhild is magically guiding that weapon

00:50:19.550 --> 00:50:22.909
to hit Haokun on the battlefield because the

00:50:22.909 --> 00:50:24.550
people that he's battling during the battle where

00:50:24.550 --> 00:50:27.389
he is injured or dies during his final battle

00:50:27.389 --> 00:50:30.900
are Gunnhild's sons. who have allied with the

00:50:30.900 --> 00:50:32.860
Danes and are trying to take back over Norway.

00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:36.159
And so after Håkon dies, Erik and Goodhold's

00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:38.460
son Harald Greycloak becomes the King of Norway.

00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:42.400
So that's, oh man, I want to read this trilogy

00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:46.469
now. Oh, this is going on my TBR. Oh, I'm pleased

00:50:46.469 --> 00:50:48.469
I can even help with it, because quite often

00:50:48.469 --> 00:50:50.730
I don't have many people to talk to about all

00:50:50.730 --> 00:50:53.510
the many, many, many books I read. I kind of

00:50:53.510 --> 00:50:55.570
read them, I blog them, and then I kind of wait

00:50:55.570 --> 00:50:58.030
until I come across another fan, basically. But

00:50:58.030 --> 00:51:01.429
yes, there's lots. Lots indeed. I think I've

00:51:01.429 --> 00:51:03.630
got my reviews somewhere. I'll ping them to you

00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:06.969
on an email. But yes, definitely go look it up.

00:51:07.909 --> 00:51:10.969
So I guess we've obviously, there's just the

00:51:10.969 --> 00:51:13.230
hope that maybe this will become a trilogy of

00:51:13.230 --> 00:51:17.420
books. If you could write about any other Norse

00:51:17.420 --> 00:51:19.900
figure, historical or mythological, who do you

00:51:19.900 --> 00:51:23.860
think it would be? I have a whole host of story

00:51:23.860 --> 00:51:28.440
ideas that are just like percolating, and I don't

00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.059
know, I can't really answer that definitively.

00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:34.260
I will say that I did write an entire companion

00:51:34.260 --> 00:51:38.059
novel to The Witch's Heart that is about Sigyn.

00:51:39.219 --> 00:51:42.340
Loki's wife in Asgard. I don't know if that will

00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:44.460
ever see the light of day, but that is something

00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:48.699
that exists. And I'm a third of the way into

00:51:48.699 --> 00:51:50.380
the sequel of the Weaver and the Witch Queen.

00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:54.699
And I don't know, I have so many things already

00:51:54.699 --> 00:51:58.159
going on, I couldn't say for sure who I would

00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:00.659
want to write about next, just because there's

00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:02.940
so many things already in the works. And I don't

00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:05.480
know which one of them is gonna stick, kind of.

00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.159
which is new for me. I'm used to working on just

00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:10.260
one project at a time and being like super obsessed

00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:12.340
with that project. So the fact that I have so

00:52:12.340 --> 00:52:13.960
many things that I kind of started, I'm just

00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.559
trying to wait to get obsessed with something,

00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:21.460
I guess. So are there any other books or authors

00:52:21.460 --> 00:52:23.320
that you might recommend to read some views,

00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:25.820
listings, if they want to learn more about these

00:52:25.820 --> 00:52:28.960
characters from history? Gunhild and of course,

00:52:29.079 --> 00:52:33.119
Eric. Or even Angus Boder and Gullvay Cade and

00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:37.280
that kind of jazz. I can't really think of any

00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:41.980
besides like the original sources. Like the Edda's,

00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:43.760
Kevin Crossley Holland's retelling is really

00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:46.820
good. It's very thorough, which I like about

00:52:46.820 --> 00:52:49.619
it. I used to recommend Gaiman's retelling. I

00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:53.239
no longer do that, but it is short and sweet

00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:56.539
and has an appropriate amount of nuance. It was

00:52:56.539 --> 00:52:59.500
a fun little read, but I do like Kevin Crossley

00:52:59.500 --> 00:53:01.820
Holland's version is conkier. It goes into a

00:53:01.820 --> 00:53:07.599
little bit more detail. I really like it. I'm

00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:13.880
just a sucker for that original poetry and prose

00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:17.239
that story and the other anonymous authors give

00:53:17.239 --> 00:53:19.960
us, even though it can be really hard to tackle

00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:23.139
on your own. If you have no familiarity with

00:53:23.139 --> 00:53:26.380
medieval sources and medieval poetry, it can

00:53:26.380 --> 00:53:30.860
be a tough read. I'm like grateful to to people

00:53:30.860 --> 00:53:32.840
like you who are like making these podcasts and

00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:35.380
making content That's you know meant to educate

00:53:35.380 --> 00:53:40.639
people about this kind of stuff. So Well, I try

00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:42.659
many by having guests like you want because I

00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:45.519
don't know much myself I just know what I read

00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:47.460
and quite I quite often can't remember everything

00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:49.579
that I read so I can just point people to books

00:53:49.579 --> 00:53:53.079
I read that one go read this one. Yeah, but yeah,

00:53:53.219 --> 00:53:57.489
that's that's brilliant to hear That was what

00:53:57.489 --> 00:54:00.269
I was going to say. I think there is, I'm pretty

00:54:00.269 --> 00:54:01.889
sure I read this somewhere, there is meant to

00:54:01.889 --> 00:54:04.750
be a TV series meant to be being in production

00:54:04.750 --> 00:54:09.010
somewhere in the world about Eric Ludacz. So

00:54:09.010 --> 00:54:11.710
it remains to be seen how they portray Gunhild

00:54:11.710 --> 00:54:15.070
and that relationship and dynamic and enlighten

00:54:15.070 --> 00:54:17.789
her story the way you have or whether they stick

00:54:17.789 --> 00:54:23.750
with the current conception of her as a villainous

00:54:23.750 --> 00:54:30.219
queen. I'm excited slash nervous to see what

00:54:30.219 --> 00:54:34.320
becomes of that show. Just because I enjoyed

00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:37.340
it by the same guy who made Vikings, History

00:54:37.340 --> 00:54:39.820
Channel's Vikings. And I did enjoy what I saw

00:54:39.820 --> 00:54:44.619
of that. They play around with history a lot

00:54:44.619 --> 00:54:48.000
and it kind of is what it is. And that show...

00:54:48.110 --> 00:54:52.010
got so many people into this stuff and like that

00:54:52.010 --> 00:54:54.369
cannot be discounted. I think it's really important,

00:54:54.409 --> 00:54:57.929
that show has been really important. But I did

00:54:57.929 --> 00:55:03.389
not watch Vikings Valhalla because I object to

00:55:03.389 --> 00:55:05.530
Freydis Erik's daughter as like a shieldmaiden

00:55:05.530 --> 00:55:10.190
warrior woman. Like, she's cool enough in the

00:55:10.190 --> 00:55:14.130
saga as she is and it just like bums me out that

00:55:14.130 --> 00:55:17.280
it just goes to, you know, I have to be very

00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:18.719
careful about how I talk about this because my

00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:22.340
words have been twisted before. Again, being

00:55:22.340 --> 00:55:24.519
a shieldmaiden is not the only way to have power.

00:55:24.619 --> 00:55:26.260
So the fact that like they made her shieldmaiden

00:55:26.260 --> 00:55:28.500
instead of like kind of giving her the nuance

00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:33.099
that the Vinland sagas do kind of bummed me out.

00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:37.199
So I do worry about what they're going to do

00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:39.820
with Goodholds, but I am excited to see the show.

00:55:41.179 --> 00:55:46.329
How could I not watch the show, right? I know,

00:55:47.090 --> 00:55:49.510
it's something I often find when I do speak,

00:55:49.650 --> 00:55:51.630
especially to kind of like academics or people

00:55:51.630 --> 00:55:53.369
who've done the research and like yourself, they

00:55:53.369 --> 00:55:55.690
know the song, they know the language, they know

00:55:55.690 --> 00:55:59.469
as much as we can know about what should or did

00:55:59.469 --> 00:56:03.230
happen. They'll either watch with bated breath

00:56:03.230 --> 00:56:05.570
and grinding teeth or they'll watch five minutes

00:56:05.570 --> 00:56:08.309
and can't speak anymore because they're in too

00:56:08.309 --> 00:56:12.210
much. Obviously me coming from kind of outside

00:56:12.210 --> 00:56:15.110
of that sphere, I can have the fourth wall disbelief.

00:56:15.269 --> 00:56:19.710
I couldn't even forget because I see the interpretation

00:56:19.710 --> 00:56:22.429
more than the accuracy or the authenticity because

00:56:22.429 --> 00:56:25.650
absolutely nothing's going to be entirely authentic

00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:27.889
because it's so far removed from our past time

00:56:27.889 --> 00:56:30.090
and culture and the importance of mind and ability

00:56:30.090 --> 00:56:33.010
and our lifestyle and everything else. I mean,

00:56:33.170 --> 00:56:35.489
gosh knows, if biking through around today, they

00:56:35.489 --> 00:56:36.989
saw us all getting into cars, they would think

00:56:36.989 --> 00:56:40.980
we'd all be eaten by mechanical things right

00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:44.099
Jotun or something because it's just so avian

00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:47.519
because it's just such a big bath time and that's

00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:50.920
it's strange how we're always wanting to go Humanity

00:56:50.920 --> 00:56:52.579
as a whole was always wanting to get back to

00:56:52.579 --> 00:56:55.780
a time before time that is so far removed right

00:56:55.780 --> 00:56:58.619
and I'm like even the Victorians did it with

00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:01.820
kind of like of course and Like this great opera

00:57:01.820 --> 00:57:04.360
most of all even though that was classical mythology.

00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:10.099
It was a time kind of reflecting the changes

00:57:10.099 --> 00:57:13.179
of the time coming around then but it's just

00:57:13.179 --> 00:57:16.860
really interesting how because like as Britons

00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:18.400
we always want to go back to the Anglo -Saxon

00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.440
area kind of like every fantasy game is kind

00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:24.659
of like an Anglo -Saxon -esque period. I won't

00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:26.280
get into Viking games that's the whole of the

00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:30.099
podcast episode already done and there's so many

00:57:30.099 --> 00:57:33.760
people I could talk to about it. but yeah it's

00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:37.139
it's interesting um so of course i will keep

00:57:37.139 --> 00:57:38.960
an eye on it and if i hear any more rumors about

00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:40.519
when it's coming out on what channels because

00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:43.079
america probably will get it first so i will

00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:46.719
let you know um hopefully it will be on netflix

00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:49.559
and not on a on a sky channel because i don't

00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.219
have sky or i think i i do believe everything

00:57:52.219 --> 00:57:58.059
i do believe amazon is making it so i might have

00:57:58.059 --> 00:58:02.989
to buy a free month or something. She just gives

00:58:02.989 --> 00:58:06.949
her many email address and gets a free one. Right.

00:58:07.309 --> 00:58:09.489
I'm going into, you know, when the show airs,

00:58:09.550 --> 00:58:11.349
I'm going to go into it with an open mind because

00:58:11.349 --> 00:58:14.829
I can compartmentalize things. You know, people

00:58:14.829 --> 00:58:16.769
ask me a lot, like, what do you think of Marvel?

00:58:17.909 --> 00:58:19.989
Marvel's Thor and Loki are like so inaccurate.

00:58:20.210 --> 00:58:23.239
I'm like, Marvel, Thor, and Loki are not trying

00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:26.800
to be mythology Thor and mythology Loki. Therefore,

00:58:26.980 --> 00:58:29.699
they are fine. They are a separate thing. They

00:58:29.699 --> 00:58:32.800
are a separate thing. And I can enjoy that. I

00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.079
can watch it without my Norse mythology brain

00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:37.619
being on. And so I'm hoping for the same thing.

00:58:38.059 --> 00:58:40.280
And I'll probably go back and watch Vikings Valhalla

00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:43.119
one day, too. I'll be honest. I don't like being

00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:47.860
a hater. I like liking things. You know? That's

00:58:47.860 --> 00:58:51.639
not the energy that I want to... bring to the

00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.179
vibe. Sorry, that's not the vibe I want to bring

00:58:54.179 --> 00:58:58.880
to the function, being a hater, you know? Well,

00:58:58.900 --> 00:59:00.739
if you ever do get into watching Vikings for

00:59:00.739 --> 00:59:03.199
Halle, I've also done a review panel series about

00:59:03.199 --> 00:59:06.880
it as well. Oh really? Okay, cool. Yes, I did

00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:10.219
it with... Some wonderful historical authors

00:59:10.219 --> 00:59:12.460
called Patricia Bracewell and Helen Hollock.

00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:16.480
Hello, buzzy cat. Sorry about him. It's all right.

00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:21.079
It's fine. Cats are cats. They've written historical

00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:24.760
fiction about Queen Emma and King Canute. We

00:59:24.760 --> 00:59:27.400
also had Sharon Bennett Connolly, who's a wonderful

00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:30.550
British historian who really ups. and promotes

00:59:30.550 --> 00:59:32.449
women figures throughout history. She's done

00:59:32.449 --> 00:59:34.809
a lot of work on Scottish queens, she's done

00:59:34.809 --> 00:59:37.369
about women and the anarchy of women, kind of

00:59:37.369 --> 00:59:39.329
like the different feudal queens that we've had

00:59:39.329 --> 00:59:42.130
in our British history. I think she's got another

00:59:42.130 --> 00:59:48.550
book coming out soon about kind of like, it's

00:59:48.550 --> 00:59:50.369
a really long title but it's a spin on kind of

00:59:50.369 --> 00:59:55.409
like the good, bad, mad and not good to know

00:59:55.409 --> 00:59:57.409
but she's kind of expanded it to kind of like

00:59:57.409 --> 01:00:01.059
not mad, not bad, but just defiant kind of thing.

01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:03.059
Something along those lines, she's got that in

01:00:03.059 --> 01:00:05.320
the pipeline but she's a really good one to look

01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.780
at if you want to know about more powerful amazing

01:00:07.780 --> 01:00:11.239
women in history, many British of course. But

01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:13.300
she knows everything there is to know about Emma

01:00:13.300 --> 01:00:15.989
and of course King Canute's travels and They're

01:00:15.989 --> 01:00:19.170
a fine thing. And then in the later two series,

01:00:19.590 --> 01:00:22.130
we have Justin Hill, who wrote a lot about Harold

01:00:22.130 --> 01:00:25.050
Hadrada in historical fiction. OK. And it's an

01:00:25.050 --> 01:00:26.989
amazing book by King Spire, because Harold Hadrada

01:00:26.989 --> 01:00:29.809
is another epic hero of mine. Oh, yeah. Because

01:00:29.809 --> 01:00:32.889
his life before he became Harold Hadrada is absolutely

01:00:32.889 --> 01:00:37.230
amazing. Yes. I have his saga sitting on my TBR,

01:00:37.230 --> 01:00:40.219
like, right over there. So yeah. But yeah, he

01:00:40.219 --> 01:00:43.599
was just such a guy before he became the guy

01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:46.539
that we all know him to be. And thankfully the

01:00:46.539 --> 01:00:48.659
series does touch on that aspect of his life,

01:00:48.699 --> 01:00:50.619
although they do of course have lots of dramatic

01:00:50.619 --> 01:00:56.340
licenses and there is a lot of time Doctor Who

01:00:56.340 --> 01:01:00.260
wizardry going on. Because of course Queen Emma

01:01:00.260 --> 01:01:03.099
wasn't around when Harold Hadrada was around.

01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:05.019
One of them was really old, one of them was a

01:01:05.019 --> 01:01:08.230
baby historically all the way around. No, yeah,

01:01:08.289 --> 01:01:10.150
Queen Anna was really old, Harderada was very

01:01:10.150 --> 01:01:13.389
young. There was a prime of their life in the

01:01:13.389 --> 01:01:15.550
series and that just doesn't add up, logically.

01:01:16.190 --> 01:01:19.690
So, you know, wibbly wobbly timey wimey. Yes,

01:01:19.989 --> 01:01:23.289
but they wanted to somehow touch on all these

01:01:23.289 --> 01:01:27.190
great figures in one era instead of two. I mean,

01:01:27.329 --> 01:01:29.230
and we say this a lot in the panel, they could

01:01:29.230 --> 01:01:31.550
have done a series on each of the figures and

01:01:31.550 --> 01:01:33.869
then made a huge omnibus edition more than...

01:01:34.349 --> 01:01:37.710
Try and compact. Oh, that's exactly what Vikings

01:01:37.710 --> 01:01:41.090
does though. Like, you know, it starts at Lindisfarne

01:01:41.090 --> 01:01:43.869
at 793 and then before you know it a few years

01:01:43.869 --> 01:01:45.769
later They're raiding Paris, which doesn't happen

01:01:45.769 --> 01:01:48.190
until like the mid eight hundreds So Ragnar would

01:01:48.190 --> 01:01:50.309
have been like a hundred when he raided Paris

01:01:50.309 --> 01:01:52.510
But they just kind of condensed everything for

01:01:52.510 --> 01:01:54.690
the sake of storytelling and I cannot fault them

01:01:54.690 --> 01:01:56.590
for that They're just they're just wanting to

01:01:56.590 --> 01:01:59.670
tell a good story I get that history if there's

01:01:59.670 --> 01:02:01.469
one thing that I've learned in all of my research

01:02:01.469 --> 01:02:04.960
for weaver It's that history is not always a

01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:09.679
good story. Sometimes it kind of sucks. Yep.

01:02:11.219 --> 01:02:13.340
Loads of boring parts where there's peace, like

01:02:13.340 --> 01:02:17.019
a lot of Canute's Ray was peaceful. He had no

01:02:17.019 --> 01:02:18.820
great big battles, so he became king, that was

01:02:18.820 --> 01:02:21.739
it. Apart from sourcing out some problems, I

01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:23.920
think it was in Norway where his brother ruled

01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:26.980
for a time before he died. He had to sort out

01:02:26.980 --> 01:02:30.239
that, so Emma ruled and he's dead. But I mean,

01:02:30.340 --> 01:02:32.860
they went off to meet the Pope in Constantinople,

01:02:33.559 --> 01:02:36.179
so not class A, but wrong time. Mother of the

01:02:36.179 --> 01:02:39.530
Emperor, Rome even. Not Constantinople, Rome.

01:02:39.670 --> 01:02:41.690
Further afield, Rebecca, get your job going straight.

01:02:42.070 --> 01:02:45.050
Sorry. Yeah, but yeah, there's a lot of boring

01:02:45.050 --> 01:02:47.269
bits and there's a lot of bits that are just

01:02:47.269 --> 01:02:50.550
really unsatisfying too. That's like, how do

01:02:50.550 --> 01:02:53.369
I spin this into like a satisfying ending for

01:02:53.369 --> 01:02:55.929
the readers of this book when in history it's

01:02:55.929 --> 01:03:02.269
not satisfying at all? Very good points. Well,

01:03:02.769 --> 01:03:05.050
it's been amazing talking to you, Genevieve,

01:03:05.070 --> 01:03:08.489
about everything and everything. I'm glad we've

01:03:08.489 --> 01:03:11.130
been kind of like remote social friends all this

01:03:11.130 --> 01:03:13.210
time because we do connect on so many levels.

01:03:14.090 --> 01:03:17.170
We love your books, absolutely love them. Thank

01:03:17.170 --> 01:03:19.929
you so much. I devoured them and they're gorgeous

01:03:19.929 --> 01:03:22.110
covers and I of course wish you best of luck

01:03:22.110 --> 01:03:25.150
in any writing products coming up, whether it's

01:03:25.150 --> 01:03:27.829
the same characters or new ones and I look forward

01:03:27.829 --> 01:03:30.329
to seeing what you get up to next. Thank you

01:03:30.329 --> 01:03:35.389
so much. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

01:03:35.730 --> 01:03:39.079
Thank you for having me. You're very welcome.

01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:42.239
And the viewers and listeners, please do subscribe

01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:44.639
to the channel. Next month's episode will feature

01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:47.880
another amazing author, Caitlin Felix. She's

01:03:47.880 --> 01:03:50.659
got her debut novel out, Brands Daughters. Have

01:03:50.659 --> 01:03:54.619
you read it yet? Yes, I beta read it. Oh, Katie's

01:03:54.619 --> 01:03:58.800
been one of my internet friends for a long time.

01:03:58.860 --> 01:04:01.940
So it's wonderful to see her release this book

01:04:01.940 --> 01:04:05.260
at last. I'm still working on rereading the final

01:04:05.260 --> 01:04:08.340
edition that just was released. It is so much

01:04:08.340 --> 01:04:13.360
fun. I really, I really love it. It's, I think,

01:04:13.940 --> 01:04:15.440
I can't remember what I put in my review, but

01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:17.159
there was so much I could put in my review. Just

01:04:17.159 --> 01:04:20.320
like a huge, huge, a huge spiel of love and affection

01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:23.360
and admiration for how she did it. Absolutely.

01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:28.199
I think she shows that you don't have to have

01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:30.519
a male hero like Bernard Cornwall's Uchtwood

01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:32.360
to have a historical adventure. You can have

01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:34.760
it as a woman and it can still be a historical

01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:37.849
adventure novel. Absolutely. But yes, she's coming

01:04:37.849 --> 01:04:41.150
up, it's episode 17. Hooray! She's coming out

01:04:41.150 --> 01:04:43.170
in August, I can't wait to talk to her about

01:04:43.170 --> 01:04:45.449
it because I know she did send me the, I think

01:04:45.449 --> 01:04:49.230
it was the final, the advanced readers copy version

01:04:49.230 --> 01:04:52.190
and I devoured it like in three days, or three

01:04:52.190 --> 01:04:53.889
nights I should say, because I just couldn't

01:04:53.889 --> 01:04:58.010
put it down. It's wonderful. So yes, so. Please

01:04:58.010 --> 01:05:00.789
do stay in touch dear viewers and listeners on

01:05:00.789 --> 01:05:01.949
YouTube and Spotify whenever you're listening

01:05:01.949 --> 01:05:04.510
and watching today and we shall see you all in

01:05:04.510 --> 01:05:07.570
Valhalla again soon. Thank you very much. Thank

01:05:07.570 --> 01:05:27.989
you. Thank you very much for listening. this

01:05:27.989 --> 01:05:31.429
episode. I hope you enjoyed the discussions between

01:05:31.429 --> 01:05:34.789
my special guests and myself. Please do check

01:05:34.789 --> 01:05:37.269
out the episode blurb for links to their works

01:05:37.269 --> 01:05:40.289
and websites. If you liked this episode let me

01:05:40.289 --> 01:05:43.070
know by giving it a thumbs up. Let me know if

01:05:43.070 --> 01:05:45.369
you learned something new in the comments and

01:05:45.369 --> 01:05:48.489
of course click subscribe to Valhalla Conversations

01:05:48.489 --> 01:05:51.809
wherever you are listening or watching. This

01:05:51.809 --> 01:05:54.349
podcast can be watched on YouTube and YouTube

01:05:54.349 --> 01:05:57.980
Music. and it can also be listened to on Spotify,

01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:02.760
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01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:05.599
We hope you can join us in Valhalla again soon

01:06:05.599 --> 01:06:07.139
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